In Black America

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with Dyana Williams, a veteran radio and television personality, music industry professional, member of the Board of Directors of the National Museum of African American Music, and co-originator and co-founder of Black Music Month. The full transcript of this episode of In Black America is available on the KUT & KUTX Studio website. The transcript is also available as subtitles or captions on some podcast apps. The post Dyana Williams (Ep. 37, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a 2001 interview with Earl G. Graves, Sr., an entrepreneur, publisher, and philanthropist who died April 6, 2020. Graves was the founder of Black Enterprise, a media company focused on black entrepreneurship and black businesses. The post A Tribute to Earl G. Graves, Sr. (Ep. 36, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson discusses the history of African Americans in U.S. Armed Services with Dan C. Goldberg, a health-care reporter with Politico, and author of The Golden 13: How Black Men Won The Right To Wear Navy Gold. The post Dan C. Goldberg (Ep. 35, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses the debate over how to combat racial inequalities in America’s public school system, with Dr. Steve Perry, noted educator, motivational speaker, and founder and head of the Capital Prep Schools. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Steve Perry [00:00:23] For me, education is a tool for social justice. It’s not an end unto itself. It’s just a strategy. And every revolution has begun the same way. Somebody went into a room and said, Yo, you know, we got to put up with this, right? And they broke it down as to why you have to put up with it. And people in the room like, you know what? It does make sense. And thus a revolution was born. That’s education. Dr. Martin Luther King said in his last book, Where Do We Go from Here? Community Chaos. He said that America does not know what to teach or how to teach. That’s Dr. King and Dr. King. So this desire that I have is really rooted in a commitment to social justice that was born out of living in poverty for the first 25 years of my life. And what that amounted to was my mother and another woman. They were on the tenants association and our public housing project. And seeing my mother had to fight for things that I didn’t understand, why she had to fight. What made me think that I needed to quote unquote, educate people. But I thought I would educate them through becoming a politician, which ultimately I found out was just not for me. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:28] Steve Perry, noted educator, motivational speaker and founder and head of Capital Prep Schools. Perry is the voice of a generation of people. Champion has been fighting for disadvantaged children and families for more than 30 years. His skills are hard fought and has been bestowed them as well. Adolescent years in Middletown, Connecticut, all the way through his graduation from an Ivy League university. On May 17, 2020, we observed the 66th anniversary of the Brown v Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas. U.S. Supreme Court decision. In a decision issued that day, Chief Justice Warren noted that in the field of public education, the doctrine of separate but equal has no place as segregated schools are inherently unequal. As a result, the court ruled that the plaintiffs were being deprived the equal protection of the law guaranteed by the 14th Amendment. Today, more than 60 years later, the debate continues. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Public Education in America with Dr. Steve Perry In Black America. Steve Perry [00:02:41] It could be the greatest thing to ever happen to American education, period. Sadly, because we’re allowing the teachers and the teachers unions and the teachers associations and states that they say are right to work, states to not teach. Right now, in the biggest cities in the United States of America, there are overwhelmingly minority children are not being taught at all. It’s not they’re not being taught well. They’re literally not receiving any instruction. And anyone who tells you anything different is patently lying. They’re lying. So these same people are hitting with the best man. They are literally. They’ll send home what they refer to as a packet, which is the equivalent to directions from IKEA. And basically telling you to read them yourself and figure it out. That ain’t teaching. That’s not teaching at all. And if that’s teaching, then why are we have these buildings open anyway? What we need is 40, $5,000 million buildings. If that’s teaching, let’s just keep set up. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:47] As we enter the 21st century. The education of children of color in this country is still fragmented today, more than 60 years after Brown v Board of Education. The debate continue over how to combat racial inequalities in the nation’s public school system, largely based on residential patterns and differences in resources mean schools in wealthier and economically disadvantaged communities across this nation. Dr. Steve Perry has been a vanguard in the fight for equal education in this country. He is the founder and head of Capital Prep Schools, the author of six books and a respected guest on many of our network news programs. Perry offers insight to parents, children and many politicians to assist them in a better understanding of what matters in the education of our children. Recently, In Black America, I spoke with Dr. Steve Perry. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:41] Dr. Perry, with the current events that’s taking place, particularly in Minneapolis, with the killing of George Floyd and the killing also, Mark Aubrey, as a Black man living here in America and also a father, how are those two incidents affecting you? Steve Perry [00:04:58] Last night, my son’s wife and I went out to get what I, you know, lemonade and we got back to the house. We live near the near the shore. So I said to my son, I’m about to go for a walk. And my youngest son said, I’ll go with you. I said, All right. And so when we got out the car, he said. Are we going to get shot? And as he and I walk the beach just at its core, when I say my son and I walked on the beach, that should evoke visions of placid joy arrival something good then only good notion. My son and I, both of whom had hoodies on because it was going to last night. My son kept looking over his shoulder, looking out to see who was coming to get us. Myself, about eight years old. He’s 14 years old, sophomore high school. And for him and me, it sparked a conversation about what is going on in America. And he said that I don’t oh, this sounds wrong, He said, But I look at those fires and I see beauty. He said, What else are we supposed to do? He said, I just want to live. He said, My friends just want to live. We don’t want to bother nobody. We just want to live. He said, But I’m in the neighborhood, in the suburbs, and I’m concerned about my safety. So how is it affected me? Man It’s part every day. Yesterday started with me just feeling really emotional. And this is ridiculous. You know it. It makes no sense. That when a camera because I was in 1991 when the Rodney King situation unfolded, when they tried to kill him, I remember sitting in my college dorm room. And I remember thinking, finally they caught these fools. They on tape. It’s over now. They never going to be able to do this again. I could not have been more wrong then, but to see people like that disgusting, vile murderers, police officer and the other murderous police officers that were with them in. Minneapolis. To see him looking dead at somebody with a camera phone, No one in this recording, he did nothing to alter his behavior. Nothing. He didn’t stop. He didn’t tell them to stop because he knew that he had impunity. He knew that he would not be held accountable. He lost his job. People lose their jobs so much less. He lost his job. I guarantee you, the teachers I mean, the the police union will fight for his pension. And they will sue this city. We have crossed over, ladies and gentlemen, into a very, very dark place. And what makes it dark is not that the behaviors of these victimizers have changed. Is that the people who’ve been victims for so long. Ain’t taking longer. It’s going to burn, baby, burn for a while. This one right here, they. It’s okay. Enough is enough. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:25] You’re right about that. Dr. Perry, also, I want to talk to you about we’re just past the 66th anniversary of the Brown Board of Education of Topeka. Looking at that decision, can you give a thumbnail history for those that aren’t familiar with that Supreme Court decision? Steve Perry [00:08:46] Gladly. In short, our family, like so many of us, decided that enough was enough. They didn’t want their child to go to a substandard school, and so they sought a remedy. And Topeka, Kansas, just like so many communities today, wanted to keep. Black people enslaved. And so it refused to provide them with the opportunity to have the kind of education that their family felt like their job and job deserved. And so they sued and ultimately won. What did they win? Not really much. At the end of the day. Virtually nothing has changed as it relates to public education. You still go to the school closest to your house, unless, of course, you’re wealthy enough to buy your way out, which was the case back then. Fortunate enough to get out. Which was the case back then. Or break the law and lie your way out. Which was the case back then. So. Virtually nothing has changed. Sadly, and I say virtually nothing, because despite the fact that I’ve run charter schools and before the magnet school, they’ve always been alternate routes to education. They’ve always been that. This is not a new phenomena. It’s just that we, as is typically the case, have window dressing. Well, we believe that because there are a couple of charter schools and there really are only a couple, it’s come out. 4 million kids out of 40 million children somewhere thereabouts, don’t go to traditional schools. They go to charter schools. And then there are some magnet schools again. But most of those magnet schools are zoned. So meaning you go to the magnet school based on where you live. You can just go. So your zone is adjacent to another zone, which means potentially that your house is closer to that school than the school into which you are zone. But there’s this imaginary but very real line separating you from that school. Then you can go. So the lines that were in place are still in place. And in recent years, there are 33 states that still have secession laws, which means that there are neighborhoods because that’s what they really amount to. Mhm. That are seceding from the school district thereby creating a school district within a school district. Think of it this way. You’re on a basketball court. And at center court where you’d have jump ball. Is a neighborhood. That neighborhood calls itself another school district. The rest of the basketball court is one school district. The center court is another school district. They are succeeding now to make sure that they keep school districts white, wealthy and segregated. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:50] When did you develop this passion for education for yourself, but also for those that are being denied quality education? Steve Perry [00:12:02] So it’s been a process, but it happened. See, for me, education is a tool for social justice. It’s not an end. Unto itself. It’s just a strategy. And every revolution has begun the same way. Somebody went into a room and said, Yo, you know, you got to put up with this, right? And they broke it down as to why you have to put up with it. And people in the room like, you know what? It does make sense. And thus a revolution was born. That’s education. Dr. Martin Luther King said in his last book, Where Do We Go From Here? Community Chaos. He said that America does not know what to teach or how to teach. That’s Dr. King is Dr. King. So this desire that I have is really rooted in a commitment to social justice that was born out of living in poverty for the first 25 years of my life. And what that amounted to was my mother and I and another woman, they were on the tennis association and our public housing project. And seeing my mother have to fight for things that I didn’t understand why she had to fight for. It made me think that I needed to, quote unquote, educate people. I thought I would educate them through becoming a politician, which ultimately I found out was just not for me. And in the interim, I thought, well, why don’t I start a program to help kids like me? Mhm. Because I had gone through one of those programs and it was an Upward Bound program. And then when I started to work in the schools, I started to see firsthand, you know, it’s like being in a room with the lights off and feel like somebody keeps hitting you. You just don’t know who it is. When I started to work in the schools, I turned the lights off. Or the lights were turned on. And as I would go to visit my kids in these schools, I would hear teachers talking about kids like dogs, and I would hear principals letting them get away with it. And I saw these people. Who I once trusted, putting kids into classes that were beneath them academically. And then when I, I, I can tell you specific, for instance, there’s a school district in Connecticut, the Windsor Public Schools, and that doesn’t mean anything to most people except for the fact that it’s said to be the second wealthiest Black suburb in America. And one would think with the with, you know, Black people doing all right, that their kids would be in the advanced placement classes or the seminar classes or the international baccalaureate classes. But you could walk through that school and you could tell the highest ranking classes by the number of white kids in the school. In a classroom. Sorry. So the greater the number of white kids, the higher the classes, the greater number of Black kids, the lower the classes. And I thought, well, damn, I could. I could do worse than this. You know, I mean, I can this bad while on my own school. And it was during that process of seeing those things happen that I started to realize that there’s nothing wrong with our kids. It’s just that they’re in a system that was designed to destroy them. So I felt I got some brothers together. And, you know, I say brothers. I mean brothers not just of color, but in the ball colors. Because I played myself initially, I put together a group of just Black people and we do nothing. And so I put together a group of people, small cultures, who are about their life, say, Yo, we got to do better than this. And and we agreed and we started our first school in Hartford. Wasn’t easy. Still anything. I was on the phone with one of the states today that we operate schools in sitting there arguing with them about. I mean, educating Black kids is hard as hell. I mean, it’s not because our kids are dumb because everybody makes so damn hard. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:55] I was going to go there. Would you, Dr. Perry, what do you think the problem is with our school systems and their attitude or lack thereof of educating people of color? Steve Perry [00:16:11] They hate us. Oh, man. The things that other kids get away with it. To see that you are precocious are criminalizing our kids. Come on. I mean, you know, my son, last night we were walking. He said, Dad, I don’t want to believe. The things are the way that they are. He said, I want to believe. He said, I don’t support Donald Trump. He said, I just see that he’s the president. I just want to I want to believe that people are inherently good. That’s what my supporters. Your saying. Okay. I’m saying you guys are saying what they are. You can’t do it that way. I do not want you to walk around with Black eyes on. And I’m saying, us facing gentlemen. Every single city in the United States of America can list the failed schools. Every single one. What are your. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:05] I’m in Dallas, Texas, and the program is produced out of Austin, Texas. So Texas. Steve Perry [00:17:11] Okay. So I guarantee you, if I asked you what did Raggedy Schools in Dallas or what a writing schools in Austin, if you knew what you wanted to make, you tell me, not only could you tell me. Everybody could tell me. So the question that you ask yourself is, then why on earth would you send any child to a school? You know that educating kids is because you don’t see the kids as human beings. You don’t care. And I don’t want lest anyone think that I’m talking about white people, I am not. They are Black people, Latinos, Latinas on boards of education that are selling Black people out. Fashion. You could say Jackie Robinson, don’t get it twisted. Don’t think because you got a Black mayor or a Latinas Congress person that they got your back. Alexandra Cortez Whatever. She just as much committed to the status quo as anybody else because she’s more committed to our party than to her people. Meanwhile, her parents pulled out by the school system. We know better, but we’re not doing better. And the reason we’re not doing better is because no group large enough to make an impact loves our people as people and as such. Our kids keep going to raggedy schools. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:32] If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio and speaking with Dr. Steve Perry, founder of Capital Prep Schools in Connecticut and Harlem, noted educator and motivational speaker. Dr. Perry, with the COVID 19 pandemic on us and most of our children, if not all, are being educated at home. How will this have a devastating effect, if any, or the African-American children? Steve Perry [00:19:06] It could be the greatest thing to ever happen to American education, period. Sadly, because we’re allowing the teachers and the teachers unions and the teachers associations and states that they say are right to work states to not teach. Right now, in the biggest cities in the United States of America that are overwhelmingly minority, children are not being taught at all. It’s not they’re not being taught well. They’re literally not receiving any instruction. And anyone who tells you anything different is patently lying. They’re lying. So these same people are hitting with the bs man. They are literally. They’ll send home what they refer to as a packet, which is the equivalent to directions from IKEA. And basically telling you to read them yourself and figure it out and teach it. That’s not teaching at all. And if that’s teaching, then why are we have these buildings open anyway? What we need is 40, 50, $100 million bill. And as if that’s teaching it, let’s just keep setting up. So they’ll say, well, there’s a digital divide. Stop lying. Stop lying. If that’s your issue, then explain to me this. When you were complaining before about there, not about there being a resource gap in your school, but laptops and other forms of computation and put them in the school and had in some case some of the poorer schools have a 1 to 1 laptop program, believe it or not, where those laptops send them. All the kids say they don’t want that. What they want to do is they want to sit home and not teach. They don’t want to teach because they want to teach. They do just like you and I do. They can have on a phone call, they can put on a zoom. They do any number of things. I run schools in some of the poorest cities in America. I do an open majority. I should have access to technology. Now, they may not all have let’s say they have four kids and they may not have four laptops, so they may not have a laptop for every single child. I’ll give you that. But it doesn’t mean that there are no laptops and in many cases there may be a cell phone or two or three, because in most cases, most of the kids have a cell phone. So everything that we’re teaching can be done through a cell phone. Everything. Anything you want to learn on earth is online. So imagine, if you will. If your teachers decide that they’re just going to teach no matter where they are. I’m talking to you in Connecticut. I’m in a car. I’m not sure where you are, but we’re having a meaningful conversation. They’re not teaching. Technology is not the issue. It’s the brittle spirit, as Dave Chappelle refers to them, of adults who call themselves teachers. It is unconscionable to me that school districts like Chicago and New York and Los Angeles are going to allow children to atrophy for six months. It’s disgusting. It’s disgusting. They ought to be ashamed. Anyone who’s not teaching ought to be ashamed. And you know the difference between between teaching and not teaching. If you don’t, you shouldn’t be teaching. Teaching is you showing someone how to do something. You answering questions when they don’t understand, you providing them with support. If you’re not doing that, you are not teaching. And if you are being paid by your community to teach and you’re not teaching. Return the money. If you need time off to be with your family to take care of your kids. Ain’t nobody got a problem with that. That’s cool. If you need mental health support, I’m sure that there’s some program at your job that will allow you to do that. But if you are not taking personal or mental health days and you are being paid to teach, you have an obligation to do so. If you’re a doctor or nurse, you can’t say, well, you know. Here’s a scalpel with some sutures. Go ahead and figure it out. You can’t text your patients instructions on how to operate on themselves. You are going to do it. If teachers want to be treated like the professionals that they claim that they want to be, then you got to do it when it needs to be done. If you’re not teaching, you’re not teaching. You dont’ have to like it. But think about the rest of us who have children at home. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:38] How can parents help their children learn during this this hiatus from school. Steve Perry [00:23:43] There’s a lot of ways. One, reach out to the school and say, You only teach my kid straight up. This is not cool. I’m paying you so you can teach. Hold them accountable to do what? You can. Identify all the parents who are out there. There’s. There’s a lot of information online. There are some online learning platforms that you can go to. I don’t know if all of them are free. Um, at our schools we are teaching and some of my teachers are doing a great job, most of which is doing a great job. Some of them are not. So they’re not giving 100%. So they won’t be here next year. But you know, they made a decision. I’m here for my kids. And so as I am, I am not just an educator. I am a father of sons who go to one of my schools. Mhm. And I’m not trying to hear your feeble spirit talking about how you. This is too stressful for you. Okay, cool. Got you. But my son still has to go on with the rest of their life. You already have your degrees, Chief. So if you can’t do the job, I can’t be mad at you for it. But you can’t expect me to pay you to do something that you’re refusing to do. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:48] So how are your teachers communicating with you alls students. Steve Perry [00:24:52] So we do zoom. And every every classroom day starts at 8 a.m.. At 8 a.m. they begin teaching our classes are 45 minutes to an hour. Our school day goes to 3:30. At 3:30, we switch into office hours, which should be a time in which the kids go for additional support. We have daily attendance and upwards of 85%. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:18] So how are your messages different from those that are attending traditional schools? Steve Perry [00:25:27] We look for excuses, we look for solutions. We looking for excuses. We look for solutions. These are my kids, man. Like, I don’t understand people. People. Oh, we miss our kids. Oh, we’re so sad. We get on a damn zoom in same way when you miss your auntie or uncle. Have having zoom party, zoom birthday parties having zoom retirement party reaching out to retirement centers. You miss all those people, right? You know how to you talk to your kids. It’s not cool, man. It’s not cool at all. It’s not cool. I’m not going to call somebody here all because they decided to become a teacher. We decided to do it. It’s one thing doing it is something entirely different. Think about it. In Connecticut alone, in six weeks, 430,000 people filed for unemployment. A lot of those were my kids parents. How are you going to complain about your job when you’ve got a job, man? Please. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:20] Dr. Perry, before we run out of time, what do you see the state of education, maybe 5 to 10 years from now? Are we just are in a cycle. Uh, recidivism, um, you know, doing the same thing and getting the same results? Steve Perry [00:26:36] So. Oh, my brother, man Oh, heartbreaking. I’m working too hard for this. I lia lot of other ways to get paid in the course of the day. It got to be a lot easier than that. So my plan and my hope and my plan is to upend this education system that we have now. Prodigy wasn’t talked about the Miseducation Negro 70 years ago, 80 years ago. My hope is that this COVID will be to education in America. What Katrina was to education in New Orleans, a tragedy that was costly in terms of lives, but presented an opportunity in terms of rebirth. You don’t have to keep sending kids to failed schools. We never have to do it again. It never has to happen again. Never, Not ever. You can have Dr. Yewande. You can do both. And Stephen Hawking’s and Albert Einstein be lecturing in one classroom just by having their videos available to you. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:41] Dr. Steve Perry, noted educator, motivational speaker and founder and head of Capital Prep Schools. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as to the future In Black America programs, email us at inblackamerica@kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. The post Dr. Steve Perry (Ep. 34, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

On this week’s edition of In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with Michael Meyerson, the DLA Piper Professor of Law and Director of the Fannie Angelos Program For Academic Excellence at the University of Baltimore School of Law. The Fannie Angelos Program assists law students from Maryland’s historically Black colleges and universities. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Michael Meyerson [00:00:23] I went to historically Black colleges which are by long race neutral. Though in the state of Maryland, overwhelmingly African-American. Not entirely, but overwhelmingly. And we went to the fourth schools and we started recruiting people. And from there, we finally figured out in large ways how to really identify those who were not only academically talented, but kind of personally motivated. And then we spent time with them working to both explain the system and then get them ready for the LSAT, which gets them into law school, the entrance exam. And then we found that’s not enough, because in law school, when you’re going from a predominantly African-American community to a predominantly white institution. There are still lots of obstacles. It’s institutional racism, this individual, and of course, in this, the world of environment and life that people have to sort of deal with. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:15] Michael Meyerson, the DLA Piper Professor of Law and Director of the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence, the University of Baltimore School of Law. The Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence, formally called the Baltimore Scholars Program, has been in its current form for the past seven years. The program represents a revolutionary and comprehensive approach for addressing the lack of diversity in legal education and the legal profession. Meyerson and his team has created in collaboration between the University of Baltimore School of Law and Maryland’s four historically Black colleges and universities. More than 100 students have been accepted into law schools across the country. Students have served on law journals, won national Moot Court competitions graduated at the top of their class and obtain prestigious judicial clerkships and jobs at law firms and public interest organizations. I’m John L. Hanson Jr., and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence by Professor Michael Meyerson. In Black America. Michael Meyerson [00:02:28] So one is that you over time you identify certain traits. For example, if you don’t take personal responsibility for your failures, if you always blame others, it’s really hard to self improve. So that sort of thing. Second, if you don’t believe that you should help others, that you can work as a team. The program isn’t right for you because what we’ve learned is that it’s the community that makes people strong. So you have to accept that. And finally, I don’t do the selection process myself. We have not just other faculty members, but we have people from the program who are incredibly protective of both to the program and sort of the the students who come in. And so they have to know because, you know, we don’t bat 1000, one of the things about a program, any program that wants to make change like this is I think you have to recognize that, you know, you’re not going to be perfect. But we’ve gotten better over time. And, you know, basically, you also you always, you know, fight the last war. So if one year you realize that you don’t have a sense of community, then the next year you put extra effort when you interview and talk to people and then you bring them in to work on the basic skills. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:39] Law professor Michael Meyerson has devoted his entire life to fighting for the underdog and disenfranchized. Since the mid 1990, he has worked tirelessly to level the playing field for minority law school students, according to the 2017 National Association for Law Placement Report on Diversity in U.S. Law Firms. Only about 4% of legal associates and fewer than 2% of partners at law firms across the country are African-Americans. In 2013, with a $1 million donation from a Baltimore attorney to the University of Baltimore School of Law, the Baltimore Scholars Program was renamed The Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence. The program provides law school admission test training for students from Maryland’s historically Black colleges and universities, as well as scholarship, mentoring and financial assistance to students admitted to UAB Law School and other law schools. Recently In Black America, I spoke with Professor Meyerson from his home. Michael Meyerson [00:04:42] So in many ways it was much better because people were much more open because they could sort of have their anonymity guaranteed and protected. So I was able to like, read their private questions out loud and we got a much forward discussion. So I was actually way better. But, you know, it’s easy for a lazy student to hide online. I haven’t had not figured out a way to, uh, to capture that. So that that’s, that’s a work in progress. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:06] So when they’re online is a whole class. Yeah. Plugged in to your particular lecture? Michael Meyerson [00:05:12] Yeah. Yeah, It’s a, it’s through Zoom. But the other trouble is, you know, when you’re in front of a classroom, you can gaze and watch everyone when you’re doing it on Zoom. I’m not going to watch 60. You know, and I, I, you know, and then they say, Oh, I can’t use my screen. I have to use my phone. And, you know, and of course, some of my students are, you know, you know, are absolutely true, you know, and they may not have good wifi, but but the trouble is online lets slackers be slackers. And I just, you know, you know, I like to be a hard ass and I just can’t capture them yet. But, you know, I like to think I’ll get better at that. I was born in New York City, in the Bronx, and ended up moving down, getting a job in Baltimore and living around here now. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:52] What was it like, like growing up in New York? Michael Meyerson [00:05:55] Well, it’s it’s it’s it’s fascinating in ways because you do meet lots of different people, even, you know, almost without helping it because it’s such a crowded place. But reality is also with it can still be somewhat segregated based on income and and where you live. And so you see people, but you don’t get to know them. So you have an illusion when you’re a New Yorker that you’re really in a diverse city. But I think in reality, most of us were not. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:21] And you did your undergraduate work where?. Michael Meyerson [00:06:24] I started at, uh, Middlebury College in Vermont, and ended up graduating from a place called Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts, which is known for having no exams and no grades. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:35] And your law degree is from where? Michael Meyerson [00:06:37] University of Pennsylvania School of Law. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:40] What excited you to go into law? Michael Meyerson [00:06:42] Oh, being sort of a baby boomer, the lawyers seemed to be the heroes of the of the movement, the civil rights movement. They seemed to be the ones who were changing society. And so also lacking any any any particular skill in my life, I can’t sing, I can’t dance, I can’t do much athletically. Law seems to be the best way I could do things. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:06] I also understand that you work for the American Civil Liberties Union. Michael Meyerson [00:07:10] In fact, that was probably the best part of my legal education. I spent six months working full time at the national ACLU office, and I met these extraordinary lawyers who were doing extraordinary things. And they also just taught me to be a lawyer. So I always think the quality of my lawyering was very much based on the luck of having six months working there. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:33] I also read somewhere that you said the Bible greatly influenced you. How so? Michael Meyerson [00:07:38] Well, in the sense of it’s a oh, it’s sort of like a mandate. I’m Jewish and I’m told that, you know, remember, you were a stranger in a strange land, and that always seemed to be the moral command. And it you know, it transcends religion. But in that sense, it just seemed to be every time you felt settled, you had a responsibility to help those who were not. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:00] Also, I understand that you joined the faculty there in 1985. Michael Meyerson [00:08:05] Yes. I’m old as dirt. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:08] And any prior positions before you went to the University of Baltimore? Michael Meyerson [00:08:11] I done sort of like, uh, teaching elsewhere for a few years at Brooklyn Law School. I had done a little work in a sort of a political office, in the governor’s office in New York State, doing consumer protection. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:22] I also understand that through your tenure, you said that a law professor gave you some good advice, that the legal profession affects the lives of ordinary people. Michael Meyerson [00:08:33] Oh, it really does. And I was told early on that as a teacher, my responsibility was not so much to my students, but to their future clients. And I didn’t really have the right to affect their politics, but I had an obligation to affect their ability to be professionals and respectful. And then I had also the opportunity as an academic to find ways to make the world better, or at least how I saw the world being better. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:01] Talk to us about the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence. Michael Meyerson [00:09:05] It sort of began as a reaction. I was asked with a colleague to to sort of review the law school’s affirmative action program after they were started being challenged in the 1990s. And our program, you know, met constitutional muster. But like so many affirmative action programs, it did very little. And I had been sort of pondering since law school how to do this thing right, how to do, I guess, what we now call pipelines, but how to do something that really, you know, discovered talented people and gave them a chance they would not otherwise have. So, Sunny, in the mid 1990s, I and a colleague sort of created this program. But I’ll be honest, it took about 15 years to do it right. I thought originally all you have to do is sort of open a door and then life is fine. What I learned over the years was how much it took to level the playing field, because the motto of the program is that we’re not a diversity program. We’re a talent search. Because if you find talent and level the playing field, diversity happens. So what we found is the other thing to be constitutional at the state University, we had to be race neutral. And so we went to historically Black colleges, which are by long race neutral, though in the state of Maryland, overwhelmingly African-American, not entirely, but overwhelmingly. And we went to the four schools and we started recruiting people. And from there, we finally figured out in large ways how to really identify those who were not only academically talented but kind of personally motivated. And then we spent time with them working to both explain the system and then get them ready for the LSAT, which gets them into law school, the entrance exam. And then we found that’s not enough cause in law school, when you’re going from a predominantly African-American community to a predominantly white institution, there are still lots of obstacles. There’s institutional racism, there’s individual. And of course, then there’s the world of environment and life that people have to sort of deal with. And then we learned after they graduate, that’s not enough, because they’re going from a predominantly white institution to an overwhelmingly white profession. And if you look at the numbers of African-Americans who were like in law firms and partners, it is it’s it’s virtually Jim Crow level. And so we created we now have a system where we’re sort of working to support and mentor, you know, people throughout the process. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:36] What was the HBCU president, his immediate reaction when you all told him that you wanted to develop this program? Michael Meyerson [00:11:46] Well, on one level, it was sort of like, you know, go have at it. I think that part of the problem with institutions is that they’re nervous about sharing. And I think, you know, rightfully so, a lot of the CEOs are not very trusting, you know, don’t have a lot of instant trust in a predominantly white law school. I think over the years, we’ve proven the most important thing. And this is, by the way, there’s sort of a two side note, but it’s it’s I think it’s relevant. To me, the biggest problem with affirmative action programs is how many of them are built on disrespect. Will lower standards will overlook this. We don’t really expect quality if people don’t do well with. Well, of course. What do you expect? And that’s always I mean, it’s a lie, but I think it’s a real poison. So the program we run is all based on the absolute confidence that the students we are finding are either as good or in most cases better than the students will be competing with at the law school and in the profession at large. And the institutions we’re working with, we treat with respect because what they are accomplishing is so extraordinary. And over time, when you treat people with respect, they begin to believe it, that you actually do respect them. And so that’s become a whole lot better. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:58] I know this is extract type of collusion, but how do you all decide which students that you all select with you all help? These individuals can actually make it. Michael Meyerson [00:13:12] That’s a that, by the way, first of all, it’s an art, not a science. And I, I don’t swear we’re that good at it or I’m not good at it. So one of the things I’ve learned is program like. Like what? Like mine. You learn humility early and often. So one is that you you over time you identify certain traits. For example, if you don’t take personal responsibility for your failures, if you always blame others, it’s really hard to self improve. So that sort of thing. Second, if you don’t believe that you should help others, that you can work as a team. The program isn’t right for you because what we’ve learned is that it’s the community that makes people strong. So you have to accept that. And finally, I don’t do the selection process myself. We have not just other faculty members, but we have people from the program who are incredibly protective of the program and and sort of the the students who come in. And so they have to know because, you know, we don’t by 2000, one of the things about a program, any program that wants to make change like this is I think you have to recognize that, you know, you’re not going to be perfect. But we’ve gotten better over time. And, you know, basically, you also you always, you know, fight the last war. So if one year you realize that you don’t have a sense of community, then the next year you put extra effort when you interview and talk to people and then you bring them in to work on the basic skills, you know, again, and this years, I mean, we have a really good group, so I’m feeling better, but it’s still it’s still personalities. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:43] Is there any certain number of students that you all matriculate through this program every year? Michael Meyerson [00:14:48] Well, it’s an interesting point, because the other thing it because there are so few programs that are predominantly white law schools reaching down to collaborate with historically Black colleges and do it in such a holistic way. I mean, there are a lot of programs like help people with the with the LCT. But the idea of working with them from sort of the beginning and throughout in a very tense and personal way is unusual. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:13] How important is it that these students buy into you all’s formula in preparation for the outset? Michael Meyerson [00:15:22] It’s extraordinarily important and because first of all, the LCT is a one of a kind exam. In many ways it’s extraordinarily culturally biased. I mean, part of it is like mass games, and if you haven’t done these logic games, you’re clueless. Stunning how many students don’t have any background and sort of just taking standardized tests at all. In fact, one of the things in the program is that the for HBCUs, not one of them had a test prep prep program. The wealthier colleges in Maryland, University of Maryland, had, you know, paid for students to take these courses. And I’m going to these historically Black colleges are not one of them is offering a prep course. So, you know, you just sort of start out having to explain to people we have a new motto, which is that new problems require new tools. And so they if they don’t accept that, if they’re not willing to learn new tools, if they don’t, then then I don’t see how people can do it. And here’s the other thing. What we’ve discovered is even if they are lucky enough to get a decent score in the LCT, if they’re not willing to learn from others, they’re doomed to fail. I mean, because no one’s that smart. And eventually you’re going to need to learn from those who are, you know, who want to help you, who want who have been there before. And it’s the other thing is, especially if you’re an African American entering a white law profession, you need mentors. It’s a hostile world out there. And you might as well learn from those who have fought the battles. I mean, you know, I mean, the beginning of wisdom is letting you learn from other people’s mistakes. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:01] How do you condense this particular program? I guess Let me let me let me back up. When you all finally select a particular candidate and what year of college is that individual in? Michael Meyerson [00:17:14] It’s usually juniors or seniors. And what we do is we have to two different paths for them. We take eight and we call them scholars and we bring them onto campus for. Two weeks. They attend classes, they meet judges, they meet lawyers, they meet politicians, and they just get acclimated. One of the things we do in this program is expand people’s imaginations. One of my colleagues told me to think of it this way You know, if you don’t have lawyers in your family and you’re African American, the only lawyers you see on television are going to be that who are not a Black are going to be, you know, in criminal law, either prosecutors or defense attorneys. But someone has to open your eyes to the fact that maybe that’s not your future. Maybe you should be doing mergers and acquisitions or planned law or immigration law or any government contracts. It’s a world out there. So we introduce them to all these different kinds of lawyers. Also have them sit in a law school in a predominantly white institution and prove to them they belong, and then we send them back to campus and we have them take an LSA t course. Now we have enough room in our program for people who aren’t the so-called scholars. Now, the eight scholars get a special bonus because they get free law school tuition if they clear, you know, a certain score, 150 to 1 on the LCT. But everyone in the program, we’ll get some scholarship if they do well on the LCT and right now they’re getting ready for the June LSAT. So in fact, I’m just meeting with them this week and I’m talking with them. And here’s something interesting. Because of the pandemic they’re doing away with the in-person written exam. And so everyone’s taking what’s called LSAT, flex and online. But you know what? If your house doesn’t have good wi fi, if you’ve got six people living in a house and you can’t get any quiet, how are you going to take this to our test? When how are you going to compete with other people? So I agreed to convince the law school to open up its rooms so they can take the exam in mid-June under, you know, ideal or much better test conditions. So, I mean, there’s a lot that goes into leveling the playing field. A lot goes in. They have to they have to meet us halfway, but then we have to do the rest. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:19:35] When you select an individual, how important is for a family parents to buy into this program with their child? Michael Meyerson [00:19:44] That’s a really complicated question because one of the things we talk to our students about, well, okay, what what what are the things that make it hard for these incredibly smart people to succeed? And one of the problems is what I call toxic voices, the voice in the back of your head that tells you you are not good and you don’t belong. Now, a lot of these, you know, students, you just you know, it’s the it’s society, it’s the media telling you that if you’re not from a if you’re from in a neighborhood that you know, doesn’t have a whole lot of people making a whole lot of money, the city’s telling you you’re not as good. Often it’s their so-called friends who are telling them, Who do you think you are? You know, In other words, these people who want to achieve, want to strive, want or want to want to just, you know, beat the odds. You know, their friends who may not have as much courage, may not have as much, you know, intellectual gifts will often attack them. And sadly, sometimes it’s within their families where their families are just just don’t understand what these, in my opinion, what their children are capable of. Now, many other families are so proud and so supportive, but ironically, even they put pressure on their children because they almost can’t imagine their children failing as. And so they put the pressure on. Well, you got to be perfect. So it’s wonderful to have family support and those who do. I just think, like anyone else in the world, have a better shot at success because you have more support and more more sort of room to like for trial and error. But the reality is, as they say in baseball, you got hit the ball where it’s pitched. So a supportive family is wonderful. But the reality is, if you don’t have a supportive family, we’re not giving up on you. We just we. And I’ll tell you, we have learned over the years when we have to step in and say, even though, you know, this person tells you you are not good, we know you are. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:39] Obviously, since 1995, there has to have been other individuals to buy into your vision. How do you convince them to do so? Michael Meyerson [00:21:49] You mean other institutions to do the kind of program? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:52] You mean the institutions in other professions? Michael Meyerson [00:21:54] Well, here’s the problem. Here’s the problem. People love the program until they find out how much work it is. It’s it is it is so labor intensive. So I my students text me every Monday. I am now meeting with them in two groups, twice a week, twice a week with Zoom meetings. In other words, it’s not it’s not a lazy person’s game. I mean, if you want a level playing field, it’s almost like, you know, you just like like, like shoveling on a on on on a on a snowy day. I mean, you’re just working all the time. Now, to me, it’s. It’s all I’m so glad I have the opportunity to. But, I mean, you got to really commit. It is incredibly labor intensive to do it right. Because the number of obstacles that step in and the number of of of just fears people have is extraordinary. So I think I think people want to do it on the cheap. I think they want to do it in a you know, in a lazy way. And I think they want to do it without institutional commitment. My dream is to have everyone do it, every institution, every predominantly white institution, do a program like this and not just do law. You could do it in nursing. You could do it in engineering. Maybe I’m just not I’m not nearly as good a salesperson as I as I like to think I am. But we have not seen many people say, hey, let’s do exactly. Once they find out what we do, we tend to not get a return phone call. Are there. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:17] Any particular law schools that work well with you all, or are the students able to select and submit their application to schools that they prefer to go. Michael Meyerson [00:23:28] To? Oh, absolutely. We it’s one of the things that I did very early on which my deans don’t always like, but I just sort of insisted on it, is that the program has to be based on fulfilling students dreams. It has to be about them. It can’t be about me or or my school. So they do not have any. They can go to any law school they want and they’ve gone to places like Georgetown, Howard, Columbia, USC, Minnesota. I mean, we’ve had a nice mix, but one of the things is they know they succeeded with us. And by the time they finish the law school application process, they know, you know, a quarter of the faculty. So they walk into our law school. If they go here, like like they’re like like they’re seniors, not freshmen. And I think that so as we’ve gotten better in the program, more and more of our students who had choices have chosen to come to Baltimore law school, but they certainly don’t have to again, because I think, you know, these sort of programs, if they’re going to work, are all about letting other people live their dreams. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:28] How has word of mouth from former student assisted you are recruiting new students? Michael Meyerson [00:24:35] Well, incredibly so. And, you know, part of it is, you know, smart people hang out with smart people. And but secondly, you know, the fraternities and sororities at the HBCU are incredibly tight, you know, And so when people, you know, start spreading the word from one generation to the next, as it were, it becomes powerful. But, you know, also we’ve been around long enough so that our students from the program who are like worked with judges, the judges want to hire other people and law firms want to I mean, you know, of course, you know, I don’t know if you know, it’s sort of, you know, one of the sad realities of American life is that when things get racialized, the presumption is that if it’s African-American based, it can’t be very good. And that’s one of the goals of the program, was to, you know, put, you know, show the lie to that. And so the more people hear, that’s why even the word excellence is sort of part of everything we talk about is we’re not talking about average. We’re talking about way better than average. And that’s people sort of see the program like that, both the students and the employers. And in fact, my colleagues on the faculty, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:40] You talk about the program, Is labor intense? But I’m also understand that it costs money. Yet how are you are funding this project? Michael Meyerson [00:25:50] Okay. So we got a grant of seed money, you know, to sort of pay for like outside the one administrative assistant who runs things. The law school itself has been very generous with money because they’ve paid for scholarships. And, you know, at a time of a shrinking scholarship budget, they have stayed committed. So, you know, again, it takes you know, it’s the more support you get, the better. And the law school itself has been very supportive financially about that. Now, if someone like me, I do it for I mean, it’s you know, I, I have a job. I’m a law professor. I’m tenured. So, you know, this is just you know, this is like the best part of my life. And so, you know, the faculty who work and volunteer get, you know, do it, do it just, you know, just out of love. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:35] One final question. At the end of the day, when do you know you’ve had a good day? That’s part one and part two of that question at the end of the semester, when do you know you’ve had a good semester? Michael Meyerson [00:26:47] Uh, it might be the same. It’s when you see a student suddenly believe in themselves and you see them accomplish something they can’t they couldn’t have imagined doing. We just had eight students graduate from law school this this week, and we did a little zoom ceremony. And I think an answer to your question, you looked at their parents on the little camera, hugging their kids, crying. You looked at the children, thanking their parents, and you think, my goodness, this is you know, this is what this is what we’re supposed to be. So every moment you have a chance to give someone a step more towards their dream, my goodness. Or what? But how could you have a better day than that? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:26] Any final comment, Mr. Morrison? Michael Meyerson [00:27:28] Yeah. If you any of your listeners want to duplicate the program or want to tell me how I can do it better, please contact me. We’re a work in progress. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:36] Michael Morrison to DLA Piper, Professor of Law and Director of the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence, the University of Baltimore School of Law. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as to a future in Black America programs, email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CD’s, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St, Austin, TX 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Michael Meyerson (Ep. 33, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses rising unemployment and the subsequent rise in personal debt amid the Covid-19 pandemic, and how African American consumers can protect themselves, with Erika Rickard, Director of Civil Legal Modernization at The Pew Charitable Trusts. Also, a preview of next week’s program, with University of Baltimore Law School Director Michael Meyerson. Intro Music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Erika Rickard [00:00:25] I think there’s a lot of potential causes here. When we were examining this trend, we also noticed that during that same time when court cases were starting to increase, we also saw the increase in what’s called the debt buyer industry. So these are companies that purchased debts from banks or other original creditors, and then they pursue consumers to try to collect on those debts. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:00:47] Erika Rickard, Project Director Civil Legal Systems Modernization, The Pew Charitable Trust. From 1993 to 2013, a number of debt claims filed in civil courts across this country increased to the point where became the single largest share of civil court cases over that period. Particularly as people use civil courts less for other issues. An analysis conducted by the Pew Charitable Trust found out as a category that claims have largely one sided outcomes, raising troubling questions about legal proceedings and case disposition. Reports uncover how the court system has become a debt collectors tool or businesses suing consumers, many of whom show up in court without an attorney or don’t show up at all. As the COVID 19 pandemic continues to show the businesses that disrupt the national economy, experts expect the number of people facing burdensome debt default and collections will grow dramatically. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, How Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of These Courts. Erika Rickard with the Pew Charitable Trusts In Black America. Erika Rickard [00:02:03] That’s an interesting question. And what that speaks to is it would be really nice to know which policies are the most effective. But unfortunately, these cases are really flying under the radar. There’s not a lot of data about what’s actually happening. So in 38 states, we don’t have any data about the number of debt collection cases that were filed or what happened in them. So it’s really hard to tell which policies are having the greatest impact. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:02:26] From 1993 to 2013, a number of debt collection lawsuits more than doubled nationwide from less than 1.7 million to about 4 million, and consumed a growing portion of civil court dockets, rising from one in nine cases to one in four in a handful of states. The available data extended to 2018, and those figures suggest that the growth of debt collection as a share of civil court dockets has continued to outpace most other category of cases that claims were the most common type of civil court cases in nine of the 12 states, for which at least some court data was available even before the COVID 19 pandemic brought the economy to a standstill, forcing millions to lose their jobs. American household debt was on the rise, climbing $1.5 trillion between 2009 and 2019, with the unemployment rate at 14.7% at the time of this production. Household debt is expected to climb. Echo Report with the Pew Charitable Trusts recently coauthored a report entitled How Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of the Courts. She spoke with In Black America regarding how consumers can protect themselves and how the COVID 19 pandemic presents a critical opportunity for courts to address the challenges of debt claim cases ahead of a likely surge in filings. Erika Rickard [00:03:56] I was a kid who grew up wanting to watch Law and Order, and I wanted to be a lawyer, and I eventually made my way to law school. And then I had to figure out what being a lawyer actually meant. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:09] And prior to working for a few charitable trusts, what were some of your other occupations? Erika Rickard [00:04:15] I worked as an attorney and as a researcher, starting with the Attorney General’s office in Massachusetts and working as a researcher at the Harvard Access to Justice Lab. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:25] And how did we get to this point where some of the civil courts in this country have totally did a 180? Erika Rickard [00:04:32] So it’s interesting. We’ve been looking at the trends that we see in state courts and who is using our courts and for what kinds of cases. And what we’ve seen is that over the past 30 years, debt collection lawsuits have become the single most common type of civil court case. There are now one in four civil court cases is a debt collection case. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:52] And how did we get to the point where debt collectors are now using state court, state civil courts as a tool? Erika Rickard [00:05:00] So I think there’s a lot of potential causes here. When we were examining this trend, we also noticed that during that same time when court cases were starting to increase, we also saw the increase in what’s called the debt buyer industry. So these are companies that purchased debts from banks or other original creditors, and then they pursue consumers to try to collect on those debt. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:24] And one. Go ahead. Erika Rickard [00:05:26] And more and more of the share of their workload has been on bringing debt collection cases in court. So we started to see a really high number of just a few companies using the courts to pursue these deaths. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:39] Now, there is no way in the half in which we have to articulate the full report. But there’s some some items that I wanted to go over with you. When a debt collector goes to court, I assume that they are representing a particular company. Erika Rickard [00:05:59] That’s right. So it’ll be it may even be one attorney who is there for the day that’s representing a lot of different companies. But the different companies, banks, credit card companies, sometimes medical care providers will have a lawyer that’s representing them in court. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:12] And how does the process work? Once a debt collector is involved in collecting a debt, what does he or she need to do and must do so. Erika Rickard [00:06:23] In order. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:24] To don’t do? Erika Rickard [00:06:25] In order to bring a debt collection case to court. The company or the lawyer representing that company will file paperwork in the courthouse and will, in most states serve that court paperwork on the consumer. So make sure that the consumer knows about the court case. What happens next might be that the consumer might have to respond to that case in writing. Or the next step might be that both sides are in the courthouse together. So that’s what’s supposed to happen. But what usually happens in these cases is the debt collector represented by a lawyer filed the paperwork and comes to court. And in 70% of the time or more, the consumer doesn’t respond. The consumer doesn’t file the paperwork or the consumer doesn’t come to the courthouse. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:06] And I was reading in a report that most consumers aren’t aware that the debt collectors collect you for a company because they don’t recognize who the debt collector is. Is that still the case? Erika Rickard [00:07:17] So we’re not sure that it’s the majority, but it certainly has happened where a consumer will not recognize the name of the company that’s suing them. So in the case of a debt buyer, the name of that company is different from the name of the company that where you took out the original credit card, for example. So so there have been reports of people either not receiving the court paperwork at all or receiving it and not thinking it applied to them because they didn’t recognize the name of the company suing them. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:40] As you say, that is that being looked at as far as who is the original debt holder? Erika Rickard [00:07:46] So we have started to see states try to identify more information in their court notice. So Maryland, for example, changed some of their rules to make sure that more information was required on the court papers so people could see who it was that was doing them. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:01] Now, I also read that when one is is is notified nine times out of ten one, we just articulate that they are not familiar with the debt collector or the company that they’re suing them. But they had to take off from work, find babysitters and the amount that they owe, they can’t pay. Erika Rickard [00:08:21] That’s right. We are seeing the kind of the additional costs on top of that debt that might be that somebody might be sued for. There’s also the costs of coming to court. So the cost of taking the time off of work, the cost of child care, and most notably, I think nine out of ten times the consumer does not have a lawyer to represent them. So they’re representing themselves if they’re participating in the case at all. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:40] And majority of the cases are settled by default judgment. Erika Rickard [00:08:44] That’s right. So a majority of the time, 70% or more in a court that we studied, the debt collector wins almost automatically. So a default judgment means that the court doesn’t review to make sure that the right person was being sued for the right amount or that the case was filed in a timely manner. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:01] So what kind of toll does this have on the consumer as a default judgment is issued? Erika Rickard [00:09:05] So a default judgment, even though it doesn’t come with that court review, carries the same weight as any other court order. So that means that there can be court costs, there can be attorney’s fees that get tacked on top of the original debt. And it also means that the court order gives the debt collector more avenues for pursuing the consumer for the money that is alleged to be owed. So that can mean garnishing somebody’s wages. It can mean freezing a bank account or putting a lean on someone’s property. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:31] So how convoluted are these particular policies and procedures from state to state? Is one state doing better than another state? Erika Rickard [00:09:40] That’s an interesting question. And what that speaks to is it would be really nice to know which policies are the most effective. But unfortunately, these cases are really flying under the radar. There’s not a lot of data about what’s actually happening. So in 38 states, we don’t have any data about the number of debt collection cases that were filed or what happened in them. So it’s really hard to tell which policies are having the greatest impact without any data about the court records. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:07] Are there any racial disparities in these debt claims? Erika Rickard [00:10:10] Unfortunately, yes, we have. We have observed racial disparities. One study from ProPublica a few years ago documented racial disparities and a handful of cities where they were able to look at the court records and see based on zip code and location information that even if you account for income in mostly Black neighborhoods, the default judgment rate was higher than in neighborhoods that were mostly white. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:33] Can we talk about code in force collection? How does that work? Erika Rickard [00:10:37] So court enforced collection is the idea that a court order provides some additional leverage that’s provided by the government for debt collectors to then approach someone’s employer or to approach someone’s bank. Armed with that court judgments, a private debt can then become the subject of government enforcement, and that in addition to wage garnishment and seizing of assets, there’s one more avenue that’s perhaps the most extreme, which is civil arrest. So in 44 states, there is a law on the books that would permit a civil arrest for for contempt of court, for failure to comply with a court order. In this case, the court ordered judgment against the consumer. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:19] What made you all take up this particular study? Erika Rickard [00:11:23] So we’re starting from the position of thinking about courts and how courts can better interact with people who are trying to use them today. So we’re looking at how you can modernize courts, thinking about the fact that today’s modern court user is usually somebody who doesn’t have a lawyer. So we were looking at which kinds of cases are really being brought either by people without lawyers or against people without lawyers. And what we found was that the most common type of court case is brought by a business with a lawyer against an individual who doesn’t have a lawyer. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:53] If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio. And I’m speaking with Erika Rickard, director of the Civil Legal System Modernization Project at the Pew Charitable Trust and author of coauthor of How Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts. Erika, what should one, if they’re consumer, receive a notice that they’re being sued by a debt collector? Erika Rickard [00:12:19] So our research focuses primarily on what states can do. But for consumers, there are some good resources out there. So one one resource is the Federal Trade Commission, which has a website for consumers about how to respond to debt collectors in court and out of court. And that’s consumer.FTC.gov. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:37] I also read that there is a service or something to the to the point of suing service. What is that sewer service? Erika Rickard [00:12:48] So there have been a couple of states that have investigated cases of what’s called sewer service, which means where instead of serving somebody you may have seen on TV, folks say, you know, you’ve been served and that’s personal service where you get handed court papers. A lot of times in states you’ll see you’ll have service by mail where someone can mail the court papers to you. And sewer service is the idea that the plaintiff or the process server is just throwing your court papers in the sewer. While it may not be literal, the idea that in some cases folks are not actually receiving the court papers. Whether that’s intentional or simply because the wrong address was the address that received the court papers. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:29] So are debt collecters obligated to actually send it to the correct address or there’s just like a paper mill. We just send it out. And if it if it is received fine and if it doesn’t, it still fine. Erika Rickard [00:13:42] It depends on the state. So some states have different requirements for how you serve a consumer in a debt collection case. But there are some states where you can serve by mailing to the last known address. So that’s not a guarantee that the person still lives there or that the person actually receives the court papers. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:58] Was the data readily available for you all through Texas research? Erika Rickard [00:14:03] So what we did was we looked at each state puts out an annual statistical report about all the statistics about their court cases, and we looked at each one for several years leading up to 2018. And what we found was that while almost all states do report something about their case loads, very, very few actually report about debt collection cases, or only 12 states that report anything about debt collection cases in their most recent court reports. And of those 12, very few of them actually report on default judgment rates or on debt collection cases across the state. In fact, Texas was the only state that we found that reported on all kinds of outcomes, including defaults for all kinds of cases, including debt all across the state, from the lowest dollar to the highest dollar. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:49] Now, with the downturn of the economy and I understand that a lot of individuals are, you know, using their credit cards and some are maxing them out, what do you foresee in the immediate and far future? Erika Rickard [00:15:04] So much of the data in our report reflects a time when the economy was strong, but debt collection lawsuits were still continuing to grow. So now, as we’re seeing unprecedented job losses and families in financial distress, we can’t predict the future, but we can certainly anticipate that there are going to be continue to be more debt collection cases. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:23] How are some of these debt collectors able to secure stimulus checks. Erika Rickard [00:15:28] Stimulus checks is an interesting issue. So stimulus checks from the from the CARES Act and kind of intended for household expenses right now in response to the pandemic. But those are just one more form, one more asset that people have that they might put into their bank account. And if a debt collector has an existing court order against someone, a judgment against someone, they can use that judgment in many states to free someone’s bank account and collect on that stimulus check or other assets. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:55] What has been the reaction thus far from the justice system regarding you all’s research? Erika Rickard [00:16:02] Regarding the report that’s come up? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:04] Yes. Erika Rickard [00:16:04] So we’ve been sharing the report with judicial leaders and policymakers. We have received kind of a lot of interest from state leaders, including state leaders in Texas and Michigan. And some of the folks in the judiciary are actually included in in our research that actually contributed to it. So what we’ve seen is that while judicial folks who are on the ground, court personnel who are dealing with these cases every day, might have been aware of what’s happening in these cases. By and large, state policymakers and other leaders are just now starting to pay attention to these kinds of cases as we’re seeing the response to the pandemic and thinking about courts reopening now is really a time when more state leaders are starting to take notice of what’s happening in their state courts. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:47] What would you our three step approach in analyzing the debt collection lawsuits? Erika Rickard [00:16:53] So first, we looked at the existing literature and other studies that others have conducted about debt collection cases and about civil caseload trends more broadly. And then we conducted our own research on the individual state level reporting. And then we also conducted interviews and met with folks who represent consumer advocates, who represent creditors and financial institutions and who represent the courts. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:18] With this report, what do you want to see the outcome? What kind of outcome do you want to eventually see? Erika Rickard [00:17:24] We’ve seen a handful of states that have taken some initial steps, and what we’re trying to share through the report is some initial steps that other states can take, too. And those three steps are states can track and report on debt collection data. They can review their policies and they can modernize the processes between courts and court users. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:42] And I would assume that consumers need to become more savvy when such notices are presented to them and don’t go to court without an attorney. Erika Rickard [00:17:54] Our goal here is for all parties to know about cases, to be able to actively participate in cases, whether they’re filing them or whether our case is filed against them, and then to receive a ruling that is based on the facts of the case. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:06] And how long it takes you all to put this report together. Erika Rickard [00:18:10] We’ve been working on this report for several months. This is mostly data that comes from prior to this is all data that comes from prior to the pandemic and was vetted by the research team at Pew. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:21] Do you see any best practices going forward by debt collecting companies? Well, going to still do what they do. Erika Rickard [00:18:28] So what we were focused on was how courts are responding when debt collectors are filing cases in court and when consumers are or aren’t participating. What is it that courts and other state leaders can do. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:40] To find a common? Erika Rickard [00:18:41] Jerrica I would encourage folks to take a look at the report at Pew Trust. Scott, Oregon Modern Legal. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:46] Eco Record Project Director, Civil Legal Systems Modernization. The Pew Charitable Trusts. Next week on In Black America, we take a look at the Fannie Angelos Program for Excellence at the University of Baltimore School of Law with its director, Michael Meyerson. The program is a collaboration between the University of Baltimore School of Law and Maryland’s historically Black colleges and universities. The program prefer HBCU students who gain admissions to law school and continue to support them so that they can excel and thrive in law school. African-Americans make up only 1.77% of law firm partners and 3.95% of law firm associates. African-American women make up only 0.6 4% of law firm partners and 2.25% of law firm associates. The following is an excerpt of next week’s conversation. Erika Rickard [00:19:46] Sunny in the mid 1990s I and a colleague sort of created this program. But I’ll be honest, it took about 15 years to do it right. I thought originally all you have to do is sort of open a door and then life is fine. What I learned over the years was how much it took to level the playing field, because the motto of the program is that we’re not a diversity program. We’re a talent search. Because if you find talent and level the playing field, diversity happens. So what we found is the other thing to be constitutional at the state University, we had to be race neutral. And so we went to historically Black colleges, which are by long race neutral, though in the state of Maryland, overwhelmingly African-American, not entirely, but overwhelmingly. And we went to the fourth schools and we started recruiting people. And from there, we finally figured out in large ways how to really identify those who were not only academically talented but kind of personally motivated. And then we’ve spent time with them working to both explain the system and then get them ready for the LSAT, which gets them into law school, the entrance exam. And then we found that’s not enough cause in law school, when you’re going from a predominantly African-American community to a predominantly white institution, there are still lots of obstacles. There’s institutional racism, there’s individual, and of course then there’s the world of environment and life that people have to sort of deal with. And then we learned after they graduate that’s not enough, because they’re going from a predominantly white institution to an overwhelmingly white profession. And if you look at the numbers of African-Americans who are like in law firms and partners, it is it’s it’s virtually Jim Crow level. And so we we now have a system where we’re sort of working to support and mentor people throughout the process. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:45] What was the HBCU president’s immediate reaction when you all told them that you wanted to develop this program? Erika Rickard [00:21:54] Well, on one level, it was sort of like, you know, go have at it. I think that part of the problem with institutions is that they’re nervous about sharing. And I think, you know, rightfully so. A lot of the HP CEOs are not very trust, you know, don’t have a lot of instant trust in a predominantly white law school. I think over the years, we’ve proven the most important thing and this is, by the way, touched on sort of it’s a side note, but it’s I think it’s relevant to me. The biggest problem with affirmative action programs is how many of them are built on disrespect. Will lower standards will overlook this. We don’t really expect quality if people don’t do well with. Well, of course, what do you expect? And that’s always I mean, it’s a lie, but I think it’s a real poison. So the program we run is all based on the absolute confidence that the students we are finding are either as good or in most cases better than the students still be competing with at the law school and in the profession at large. And the institutions we’re working with, we treat with respect because what they are accomplishing is so extraordinary. And over time, when you treat people with respect, they begin to believe it, that you actually do respect them. And so that’s become a whole lot better. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:07] I know this is an abstract type of conclusion, but how do you all decide which students that you all select with you all help? These individuals can actually make it. Erika Rickard [00:23:22] First of all, it’s an art, not a science. And I, I don’t swear where I’d good at it or I’m not good at it. So one of the things I’ve learned is a program like. Like what? Like mine. You learn humility early and often. So one is that you you over time you identify certain traits. For example, if you don’t take personal responsibility for your failures, if you always blame others, it’s really hard to self improve. So that sort of thing. Second, if you don’t believe that you should help others, that you can work as a team. The program isn’t right for you because what we’ve learned is that it’s the community that makes people strong. So you have to accept that. And finally, I don’t do the selection process myself. We have not just other faculty members, but we have people from the program who are incredibly protective of both the both the the the the program and and sort of the the students who come in. And so they have to know because, you know, we don’t by 2001 of the things about a program any program that wants to make change like this is I think you have to recognize that, you know, you’re not going to be perfect. But we’ve gotten better over time. And, you know, basically you also you always, you know, fight the last war. So if one year you realize that you don’t have a sense of community, then the next year you put extra effort when you interview and. Talk to people and then you bring them in to work on the basic skills. You know, again, and this year, I mean, we have a really good group, so I’m feeling better. But it’s still it’s still personalities. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:56] Is there any certain number of students that you all matriculate through this program every year? Erika Rickard [00:25:01] Well, it’s an interesting point, because the other thing is because there are so few programs that are predominantly white law schools reaching down to collaborate with historically Black colleges and do it in such a holistic way. I mean, there are a lot of programs like help people with the with the with the LCT. But the idea of working with them from sort of the beginning and throughout in a very tense and personal way is unusual. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:28] How important is it that these students buy into you was formed in preparation for the outset? Erika Rickard [00:25:37] It’s extraordinarily important because first of all, the LCT is aa1 of a kind exam. In many ways, it’s extraordinarily culturally biased. I mean, part of it is like math games. And if you haven’t done these logic games, you’re clueless. Stunning how many students don’t have any background and sort of just taking standardized tests at all. In fact, one of the things in the program is that the four HBCUs, not one of them, had a test prep prep program. The wealthier colleges in Maryland. University of Maryland had, you know, paid for students to take these courses. And I’m going to these historically Black colleges. Not one of them is offering a prep course. So, you know, you just sort of start out having to explain to people we have a new motto, which is that new problems require new tools. And so they if they don’t accept that, if they’re not willing to learn new tools, if they don’t, then then I don’t see how people can do it. And here’s the other thing. What we’ve discovered is even if they are lucky enough to get a decent score on the LCT, if they’re not willing to learn from others, they’re doomed to fail. I mean, because no one’s that smart. And eventually you’re going to need to learn from those who are, you know, who want to help you, who want who have been there before. And it’s the other thing is, especially if you’re an African American entering a white law profession, you need mentors. It’s a hostile world out there. And you might as well learn from those who have fought the battles. I mean, you know, I mean, the beginning of wisdom is letting you learn from other people’s mistakes. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:15] How do you condense this particular program? I guess Let me let me let me back up. When you all finally select a particular candidate and what you of college is that individual in. Erika Rickard [00:27:27] It’s usually juniors or seniors. And what we do is we have to two different paths for them. We take eight and we call them scholars. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:38] Michael Emerson, the DLA Piper, professor of law and director of the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence, the University of Baltimore School of Law. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as a future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America@KUT.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook. You can hear previous programs online at kutx.org. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CD’s, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St, Austin, TX 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Erika Rickard and Michael Meyerson (Ep. 32, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with Cheryl Grace, Senior Vice President of Strategic Community Alliances and Consumer Engagement with the Nielsen Company, discussing the cultural and technological influences behind the global proliferation of African American creativity in the entertainment industry. The post Cheryl Grace (Ep. 31, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. speaks with journalist Howard Bryant, Senior Writer with ESPN.com, National Public Radio’s Weekend Edition  correspondent, and author of Full Dissidence: Notes From An Uneven Playing Field. Intro music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner. Speaker 2 [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America. Howard Bryant [00:00:23] For dissidents, to me, the bottom line with that project was it really was an outgrowth of my last book, The Heritage, where I started to ask some different questions. I think that as a Black writer, you certainly look at situations over the past decade. More importantly, you look at Ferguson, you look at Eric Garner, you look at Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and all of those things happening. You’re looking at the backlash of the from the Obama presidency and then the election of Donald Trump. And I think that it was important for me to start to look at another question that I had asked in the Heritage, which was talking about these Black athletes, whether it was LeBron James or or Derrick Rose or the rest of these players talking about their power, Malcolm Jenkins in the Players coalition. But then asking another question in the wake of Colin Kaepernick, which was how much power do you actually have if you lose everything or if you risk everything for taking on a Black position? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:22] Howard Bryant, senior writer with ESPN.com, NPR’s Weekend Edition correspondent and the author of Full Dissonance Notes from an Uneven Playing Field, published by Beacon Press, where the issues are protest, labor, patriotism or class division, is clear that professional sports are no longer simply fun and games exposed in history as a hotbed of fractured and inequities that reflects or even drives some of the most divisive issues in our nation today. Bryant, for a better part of three decades, has covered professional sports. Now, in his ninth book, he provides insight into a cultural. African-American continues to navigate the sharp edges of whiteness as citizens who are always at risk of being told to go back from where they came from. His essays covers the player owner relationship, the mineralization of sports and the myth of integration, just to name a few. I’m John L Hanson Jr., and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program Full Dissonance with Howard Bryant. In Black America. Howard Bryant [00:02:30] They think it’s a compliment when you’re when they’re saying these things to you. But it really in some ways, it doesn’t sound like a compliment when somebody tells you that they’re colorblind. How can you be colorblind in this culture and and protect me at the same time? You can’t be colorblind. You have to be as one of the great writers as Ibram Kendi says, as in quoting Angela Davis, You have to be anti-racist. You have to realize that the color does matter. And it’s very, very important because it’s going to inform how you see the world around you. Sometimes acting like you’re colorblind or using those terms. In some ways, it’s the equivalent of putting your head in the sand. You’ve got to be active and realize what what these terms mean and what the implications are if you’re going to actually have real friends. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:12] Within the nine essays. Howard Bryant of Biden, His latest book, Insightful Dissonance. He draws directly from his own life. He underscores the casual betrayal inherent in his white friendship, romantic and otherwise, and traces his and other family’s sacrifices in addressing the advantages of whiteness, particularly with regards to education. Much of his book is not about sports, but the ever changing landscape of what it means to be African-American in this country. Bryant underscores the degree to which White believe they are the only true Americans, and our others are just winners. Born and raised in Boston, he graduated from Temple University in 1991. He earned his master’s degree from San Francisco State University in 1993. Bryant began his career at the Oakland Tribune in 1991. He worked at The Washington Post before joining ESPN in 2007. Brian’s prolific baseball, writing on a variety of topics affecting the game. And that’s why In Black America caught up with him before the COVID 19 break out at spring training in Florida. You got in spring training. Howard Bryant [00:04:24] Spring training in Tampa today with the Yankees for the next few days. And then we’ll go over and go see the other teams, go see the Astros and go see the Nationals and then back to Arizona to do Dodgers and A’s and Giants and everybody else. It’s that time of season. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:39] So how’s it been looking? Howard Bryant [00:04:41] It’s good. It’s good. Obviously, the big story, of course, is is the Houston Astros and Dusty Baker and taken over. And with all this scandal taking place, it’s been interesting to see how the players are dealing with each other and how they deal with cheating and baseball and everything else. And and I’m always concerned about Dusty. You know, he’s the most successful Black manager the sport’s ever had. He’s in an incredibly difficult position, taking on an issue that’s not really his. But I’m hoping that he’s going to be able to manage it. If anybody if anybody can do it, Dusty can. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:10] And your thoughts on did the Astros handle it well? Howard Bryant [00:05:13] No, I thought they handled it very poorly, I thought. They handled everything about it poorly. I think they especially handled the fact that they hired Dusty to clean up their mess for them, and they gave him 1a1 year contract. And then the general manager that they hired, who has no experience, they gave him three years. So once again, it’s it’s a hard position for for Dusty to be in. And I think that you’re going to see, I think, the commissioner of baseball and company. I don’t think they handled it as well. Neither did the Players Association. So I think you’re going to see a lot of frontier justice issues. You’re going to see some players getting thrown out. You’re going to see some stuff on the field and we’ll see how they handle the other part of this, which is if it turns out that you find out that a lot of other teams have been doing the same thing. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:54] So what led you to write your ninth book? Howard Bryant [00:05:56] Well, for dissidence, to me, the bottom line with that project was it really was an outgrowth of my last book, The Heritage, where I started to ask some different questions. I think that as a Black writer, you certainly look at situations over the past decade. More importantly, you look at Ferguson, you look at Eric Garner, you look at Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin and all of those things happening. You’re looking at the backlash of the from the Obama presidency and then the election of Donald Trump. And I think that it was important for me to start to look at another question that I had asked and the heritage, which was talking about these Black athletes, whether it was LeBron James or or Derrick Rose or the rest of these players talking about their power, Malcolm Jenkins in the Players coalition. But then asking another question in the wake of Colin Kaepernick, which was how much power do you actually have if you lose everything or if you risk everything for taking on a Black position? If you had real power, then your your career wouldn’t be in jeopardy simply for trying to defend Black people. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:02] When did we come to the notion or a realization, if one is discontent, that equates to being unpatriotic and un-American? Howard Bryant [00:07:12] Absolutely. And where does that put Black people? Since we’re constantly we’re constantly fighting for our rights, we’re constantly fighting for a place here, It always puts you in a disadvantageous position. It puts you in the position. Now you are now you’re being pitted against the entire country. And it made me ask myself one of the questions that that is central in the book, which is, are you a renter of the American Dream or are you an owner? And I make the conclusion that we’re renters because every time you say something, people feel like they can tell you to go back where you came from. And you can’t do that if you’re an owner. If you own something, people don’t tell you to go back because it’s yours. And so I sort of felt like I just started to reach a period of exhaustion and I felt I felt very nervous about where we are as Black people in this country because I’m nervous about where we are as Americans in this country. And, you know, when something happens to everybody, Black people get it worse. And so I was especially thinking about a lot of those young Black kids who are and I don’t mean to call them kids, I’m just older than they are. But, you know, for for the ones who 28 was their first election and they thought it was different and they thought that, okay, you got a Black president and how much stock in import did we put into that? And then you go from that to this, it’s like it’s like getting punched in the face. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:30] I found it interesting to a point where we’re basically living in two different Americas. And when you talk about the perception of the police from a white point of view versus the perception of a police and police departments from an African-American point of view, does I guess to some extent, does television have a lot to do with this? Howard Bryant [00:08:55] Absolutely, it does. And I think in one of the essays I wrote called Cop Agenda, which is all about police propaganda in entertainment, you recognize how much education people have about their police departments from television, how much they learn about it, how much they believe in that relationship, all from that mass media of the, you know, cop buddy movies and TV shows and sitcoms and the rest of it. And you see how both that and Post-9-11 America has really played out into this idea of the inherent goodness of police, that the police are the good guys, and the Black experience is antithetical to that. And the Black experience is very, very different. And so you start asking yourself, where do you have this? You know, why is this gap so wide? And I think one of the arguments that I was making was in this the reason why this book is titled Full Dissidence, it’s that you find out all of these people in your supposedly integrated, you know, community and your integrated workplace and everything, and you come from the same values and you make around the same money. You kind of come from the same place. Then you start talking about policing and you realize it is that two Americas that you’re talking about, you realize that all of a sudden you do look at it very, very differently. And this is one of the reasons why it’s. So different and so difficult to have accountability and to have justice and all those different things because the the viewpoint, the life experience is just so different. Like, for example, we’re talking about, you know, in this presidential campaign, you’re talking about Michael Bloomberg and the tape of him talking about throwing kids up against the wall and this assumption that Black kids are all carrying guns and everything. Or you look at that, that video in Orlando of a six year old being arrested, a six year old being handcuffed. And I grew I mean, I grew up around white people. I grew up and after we left Boston as a kid, I grew up in, you know, third and fourth grade up until graduation in a predominantly overwhelming white community. They didn’t even have any real money. And then as a you know, as an adult now, you know, my son goes to those same types of schools, although they’re a little bit higher up I fluently, you would never, ever, ever handcuff a white six year old. You wouldn’t you just don’t do that. And so you look at this and you start to look at your white friends and on the one hand, they look all horrified, but on the other hand, they still can’t make that leap. They still look and say, look, you can’t do this. You shouldn’t do this. And somebody should be held accountable. They’ll find all the different ways in the world to act horrified, but they will not change their minds about what is this actually say about police and policing. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:39] As you say that I remember a passage in the book where one of your friends said, I don’t know the relationship you had with her, that she doesn’t mind you being Black. Howard Bryant [00:11:50] Yeah, that was when I was a kid. That was one of the things that used to happen all the time when you and, you know, you grow up around all those kids and they. They wanted to make it sound like they were doing you the biggest favor in the world by treating you like a human being. Well, you know, it’s okay. My parents aren’t. They don’t mind. They don’t care that you’re Black. I’m like, Well, that’s good. That’s good. I care that you’re white. How about that? And so you start looking at these things differently and you realize I think the thing that’s interesting about it, too, and it’s not necessarily to be confrontational, it’s to think about how we treat each other in terms of language. Think about what you’re actually saying. It they they think it’s a compliment when you’re when they’re saying these things to you. But it really in some ways, it doesn’t sound like a compliment when somebody tells you that they’re colorblind. How can you be colorblind in this culture and and protect me at the same time? You can’t be colorblind. You have to be as one of the great writers, as Ibram Kendi says, is quoting Angela Davis, You have to be anti-racist. You have to realize that the color does matter. And it’s very, very important because it’s going to inform how you see the world around you sometimes acting like you’re colorblind or using those terms. In some ways, it’s the equivalent of putting your head in the sand. You’ve got to be active and realize what what these terms mean and what the implications are if you’re going to actually have real friends. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:07] I found it interesting how how you made the connection between Colin Kaepernick and Nike and his commercial and the National Football League and its relationship with corporate America. Howard Bryant [00:13:22] Well, I was concerned at first because obviously when Colin took the knee and you saw what was happening to him, there was no question about his politics and about him trying to do something for Black people to draw attention to where we are as a country in terms of policing and not just Black people, but the lack of accountability on police. Go go look up the video of Daniel Shaver, the you know, the white pest control guy who was who was essentially just shot to death by police at point blank range. He’s a white man. So it’s not just a racial thing. It’s a policing accountability thing. And and then I started to get worried about it on the other side because I saw that that, you know, Colin hadn’t given any interviews in, you know, almost three years and he hadn’t spoken. And I was worried about what this meant. And I heard, you know, and he and I had spoken a couple of times and we had texted and I, you know, was really concerned by saying to him, you know, are you allowing other people to speak for you by not speaking, by not giving interviews? Are you letting people shape you in a way that you don’t want to be in a way that you don’t want to be shaped? And and then I heard from a lot of grassroots activists who were frustrated with Colin as well, because they were like, well, how come he’s not saying anything? And we we need him and we want him to be out front on all these things. Is he walking away from us? And so I was worried about that. And then the Nike commercial happened and then he got rehabilitated and he did that commercial, which was a harmless, inspiring, excellent commercial. And you saw what some of these law enforcement departments did across the country. You saw some of these people try to boycott Nike. You saw retailers trying to boycott Nike. And it made me ask a question, If this is the land of the free and it’s okay to have opinions, why is it so important not only to destroy this man, but now you’re going to go up against one of the biggest corporations in the world simply by letting him do a 32nd commercial? I mean, the. It seems so disproportionate. And that told me if you’re willing to go out of your way to boycott a massive billion dollar corporation, if you’re willing as law enforcement to put felons or to put suspects in Nike gear on their mug shots, which a few of them did around the country. Then that told me that Colin Kaepernick needs even more support because this is an active campaign to try to ruin this man. It’s bad enough he’s not even playing, so he doesn’t even have a job. Now, you don’t even want him to have a livelihood at all. So I thought the response was so disproportionate and it told me that I was wrong about Colin. It told me that he needed more support in many ways because the opposition to him was so overstated that it told me that that my mind had to change. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:04] If you’re just joining us, i’m Jenny hansen jr. And you’re listening to In Black America from KUT radio. And we’re speaking with Howard Bryant, senior writer for ESPN.com and sports correspondent for NPR’s Weekend Edition and author of his latest book for Dissonance Notes from an Uneven Playing Field. How When does a certain level athlete gets to the point where they think they aren’t African-American when and when, in essence, they are? Howard Bryant [00:16:35] Well, I don’t think it’s that they don’t think they’re African-American anymore. I mean, it could be that. I think they recognize that it’s easier for me to walk away from this or that. My industry is telling me I got to walk away from this. And you’ve seen that through line exist for over 50 years. And you’ve seen it with O.J., You saw it with Tiger Woods. You see it with the new tennis player, Madison Keys, where you have these players. And of course, the biracial aspects of it changed as well. But these players know what’s happening. They see what happened to Muhammad Ali. They see what happens to the Colin Kaepernick’s of the world and the Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. They see what happens to them and they also see what’s difficult in their own lives. When somebody reporters come to them and talk to them, ask them about racial questions, they see what happens in the news cycle and they don’t need the grief and they back away from it. They don’t want anything to do with it. And so you realize that even in this massive multibillion dollar sports world that we’re in, it’s an incredible level of anti-Blackness where the leagues are telling you what’s going to happen if you take on these controversial positions. And my issue has always been, why are they so controversial? All you’re doing is supporting it’s it it’s not like you’re advocating the overthrow of the government. What you’re really doing is you’re asking for the same accountability that we say that we want for everyone. But the price is so enormous. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:54] I know. That’s right. What were you trying to express or did express in the portion that dealt with mediocre white boy? Howard Bryant [00:18:03] Well, there are a couple of things about that section. The biggest thing that I was trying to get across in that essay was this this place of being trapped that I find African-Americans to be. And, you know, especially, you know, even thinking about my own life and my own career in journalism, where on the one hand, when you are when you’re not doing well, people say you’re you’re draining the system. And then when you do well, people say, oh, well, you were an affirmative action hire. You only got your job because you were Black. So you’re ruining you’re ruining the country because you’re Black, but you’re also only succeeding because you’re Black. And you listen to this this idea of this meritocracy. It goes out the window for you. We try we are told to do the right things, go to the good schools, get the education, pay attention, pay your dues. And then when you do those things, people say, oh, well, you know, you’re just an affirmative action hire. And it’s incredibly demeaning and it’s insulting and it’s humiliating. But the other part of it that I was trying to get at in that in in that essay is the phenomenon that I that I that I refer to as the assumption of competence. Whereas the white men in that business, they assume their own competence. They assume they belong in that room. Even when they don’t get jobs, they don’t assume that the person who got the job over them doesn’t belong in the industry unless it’s you. If it’s you, it’s like, well, you only got that job because you were Black. Did they never assume your competence? They never they never say, Well, he’s really good, He’s really good. And he paid his dues and he’s been doing the same job I’ve done. And he was just better than me on this one. Instead, there’s always this sort of racial resentment that you can’t escape that you can never be unstuck from. And so what I was getting at in that essay was also to say, well, you know, there are very, very few people of any race, of any gender in any color that are truly, truly exceptional. So you have to accept your own mediocrity as and sort of the the the white foundation of these industries as well. But that never happens. The only time you assume incompetence is when somebody Black gets a job that you think you should have had. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:08] This is not in the book. But how do young people navigate this? Confusing. And sometime contradictory world that we live in. Howard Bryant [00:20:17] Yeah, it’s a good question. John and I and I didn’t address it. And part of the reason I didn’t address it was because I don’t know the answer. Hmm. And I, I, I don’t resent it. I don’t mean to sound resentful because I’m. I’m really not. I’m just thinking about the ideas in my life right now. I just felt it hard to come up with an answer. I felt like. It’s. It’s not. Is it my job to also give you hope? Where is the hope coming from? I wish I knew. I found it. But where I found the hope in this world was in recognizing the con of it. In recognizing that as Black people, we do not need your approval in order to move forward. We don’t have to buy into all of these different tropes that ultimately do not serve us. That the that what really is your salvation in a lot of ways is to see through this and to not have to listen to it. I think that the area where, as I said, I was very, very concerned was in talking especially to some of these affluent Black kids out there that are going to the Harvards in the Yale’s and the Ivy League schools and then get that bucket of cold water in the face there to where it’s like, well, wait a minute, I thought we’re the elite ones. And you realize that you’re not. I think to me, what I really find the most hopeful also is in the area where you have an opportunity to speak, you feel comfortable doing so. I think that it’s interesting to me where you have some of these folks having what I refer to as their sort of full dissidence moment, like the NFL coaches right now where they’ve they’ve paid all their dues and they’re not and they’re not getting that pay off. They’re supposed to be a pay off for paying your dues. What are we going to do when you realize that that pay off doesn’t apply to me? I’m hoping that we get more voices and I’m hoping that there’s an opportunity for people to express themselves and maybe carve out new paths. Maybe the hope comes from the recognition that you asked me to lean into this. You ask me to buy into it, and now there’s nothing here. So we’re going to create something new for ourselves. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:15] I found it somewhat comical and then somewhat personal when you wrote about the appreciation days with law enforcement and these appreciation days being commemorated around tragedies of of citizens. And I was wondering, you know, when a radio or a journalist going to have Appreciation Day at some of these ballparks and the airlines and other resorts. Howard Bryant [00:22:40] Was one of the things that I’m concerned about. When I talk about being concerned about this country, we only accept heroism if you’ve got a gun in your hand. Mm hmm. And those are the heroes. We are. And there’s an essay in there as well called It’s okay to criticize the military where you’re talking about sort of the American priority. And we never question if you look at what’s happening in the country today. So you have, um, whether it’s the Elizabeth Warren Medicare plan or whether it’s a Bernie Sanders Medicare plan or whether it’s a Pete voting age Medicare plan, the first thing people say is, how are you going to pay for it? Or if it’s a student debt plan, how are you going to pay for it? But if it’s more and more and more weapons, nobody asked that question. And if you if you do some research, if you hop on Brown University’s done this wonderful study called The Costs of War, which is how much money it’s cost us to be fighting since 911, this country is drowning in enormous military debt. It’s drowning in debt. And that debt is not going to get paid off. And yet we seem to think that there is in a bottomless pit of money for the Defense Department. And you look at what’s happening to your college graduates who are who are stuck in debt and who are doing worse than their parents and who are living at home, where is this country going to go if you do not have the opportunity to have a career? And you look at those percentages, I mean, just hop on and look up anything on student and student debt, especially some of the government statistics. And you’re looking at the future. You know, my son is 15 years old and I’m looking at these numbers and I’m going these this generation is doomed. And at some point, something’s got to be done about it. But the narratives fueled by media in a lot of ways is that we’ll talk about an $800 billion defense budget. But if you try at all to talk about education or health or improvement in other ways that don’t include killing, we make it sound like it’s an impossibility. And it’s not. It’s just a difference in priority. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:35] When you have an opportunity to talk to these young ballplayers, are they finding themselves walking a tightrope or being unenthused when it comes to political issues or social problems? Howard Bryant [00:24:48] Sometimes? Sometimes I think it depends on what kind of protection they have. The NBA, it’s a little bit different because you got LeBron there, and when you’ve got the best player talking about this stuff and they’ve got a little bit more cushion because they’re not isolated, it’s like, well, LeBron said, how come I can’t say it? So it’s not that bad when you’re in a position like baseball where you don’t have any African-American players, you only have 65 Black players in the whole sport anyway. And the Black players that you do have are not very. Eager to talk about racial or political issues. Yeah, it’s very, very, very difficult. The same is true for football when you see the chilling effect of what they did to Colin Kaepernick. There’s a there’s an acceptable way to talk about issues in football, and that is to be part of the players coalition. And then there’s a way to essentially lose your whole career, and that’s to align yourself with Colin Kaepernick, even though Eric Reid is back out there playing. So I think that the players have a greater awareness of it now, but I think they are very much trying to navigate, okay, how do I maintain my Blackness? How do I maintain my citizenship? Right. Without risking my entire career that I’ve worked my whole life to build? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:53] Looking forward, Howard, you talked about the tremendous debt, and I use that that particular word intentionally tremendous debt that the military is, is putting upon our young people in the next generation. But is there light? That’s a tunnel. Are the other corners to be turned in this lesson? Howard Bryant [00:26:12] Well, I think it depends on the leadership. I think it depends on on what this country chooses to value, what direction it chooses to go in. I think even if you go back and listen to the conversations about the military, even from Dwight Eisenhower back in the 1950s when he was president, he’s a Republican talking about how if we were how we’re essentially caging ourselves, we’re making a prison out of this country in terms of being too too heavily invested in war. And so you realize that it’s not necessarily a partizan issue as much as it is a priority issue within that partizanship and the attitude that we have today. You asked me earlier about the, you know, how you get pitted against your own country. This post-9-11 attitude that we have, which is now for my entire life, I’m 51 years old for my entire life. The American flag has always been aspirational. White people, Black people, Latinos, Asians, everybody said the same thing. Maybe we’re not perfect yet, but we’re getting there. That we have a dream to aspire to, whether it’s the Statue of Liberty and all of these different things that we talk about. You know, like, you know, things were better than they were. And I don’t feel that today. I feel today that when people talk about the American flag, it’s simply a symbol to be obeyed. And if you don’t obey it, whatever that it is, then you’re unpatriotic. And that’s a very, very different message from the America that I’ve grown up in. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:38] Howard Bryant, senior writer with ESPN dot com, NPR’s Weekend Edition correspondent and the author of Four Dissonant Notes from an Uneven Playing Field. If you have questions, comments or suggestions, ask the Future In Black America programs. Email us at In Black America at KUT dot org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at KUT.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Speaker 2 [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America. CDS KUT Radio 300, West Dean Keaton St., Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Howard Bryant (Ep. 30, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents highlights from this year’s Bart Starr Awards, held during Super Bowl 54 Week in south Florida, featuring NFL host James Brown, Hall of Fame coach Tony Dungy, and this year’s Award winner, retired Giants quarterback Eli Manning. The post The Bart Starr Awards (Ep. 29, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.

On this week’s In Black America program, producer and host John L. Hanson speaks with NFL defensive lineman Michael Bennett and his wife, food advocate Pele Bennett, discussing Mouthpeace, their new, ground-breaking podcast that addresses a variety of provocative, personal topics. Intro music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner. Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio. This is In Black America. Michael Bennett [00:00:23] It’s a company we end up working with. Then we did a show called Good Kid. It had been a while that me and Pele had been talking about doing the podcast because we were like, You know what we have? There’s not a lot of people out there talking about things as a couple, you know, raising marriage to be something strong, raising a family and talk about things like that as a couple and growing a business together and also challenging, challenging society and social issues. And so we were like, you know, we should do a podcast, but we just kind of let some time pass. We kind of talked about a couple of times, but then we end up doing that show. And after the show they were like, You guys are so good, you should do a podcast. And we were like, Okay, let’s do one. And so we just took it from there, really. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:00:54] Michael Bennett, former NFL defensive lineman and Super Bowl champion, activist, author and co-host of Mouthpiece. Also Bennett is the New York Times best selling author of Things That Make White People Uncomfortable. He and his wife, Nellie, run the Bennett Foundation with their children together. On their new podcast, the Cowboys was personal and provocative topics ranging from love, parenting, the NFL and politics. Bennett sees mountains as another way of showing the impact that he and his wife have made beyond football. Prior to mountain peaks and vineyards, I worked with Lemon not only once on the network’s third original podcast, Good Kids How Not to Raise an A-hole. Since being picked up by the Seattle Seahawks as an undrafted rookie in 2009. Women have had a long and lucrative career highlighted by three Pro Bowl nominations and a Super Bowl title with the Seahawks in 2013. I’m John L Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America On this week’s program, Mouthpiece with Michael Anthony Bennett In Black America. Pele Bennett [00:02:10] We’ve just completed 11 years in the NFL. That was always a learning lesson. Each year I personally started to evolve and grow and our family started growing. You know, we went from one to now we have three girls. And so each year it’s still a curve ball. It’s almost like when you get pregnant again and you’re like, Oh, I have a baby, but you have to start all over again. And so each year is different. And for us, because we did travel to different cities and it’s last year we were in two cities for the first time in one season. And so there was a lot of growth. I think that happened between our marriage, you know, our relationship and then also our children. All of us really had to tackle so many different obstacles. But I think through all the adversity that we’ve been through throughout the years of ups and downs and just kind of learning the game and how do you balance, you know, life with children and still having your me time and self-care? I think that it continues to evolve and sometimes when you think you got it, then you learn something else and it keeps getting better. We’ll see. So I appreciate everything that has come with football, even though it has been stressful, but it has that we’ve learned. I think to say, to be honest now, we’re really been good at being balanced as a family. I mean, we’re getting better and better. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:12] Pele Bennett, wife of NFL defensive lineman Michael Bennett, Pele is a superstar in her own right. She is a food advocate and has a passion for gardening. She’s also a scale Polynesian dancer. Together, the beans have taken on everything from racial justice work to offering a children’s book to parenting three daughters Have I mentioned they also were high school sweethearts? On their new podcast, produced by Lemonade Media, heard every Friday title mouth be The vendors invite their sons and the guests into their professional and private lives to take on topics provocative and personal. I’m sitting out the national anthem and achieving their romance. For us, the conversation managed to be all things at once hilarious, inquisitive and unfiltered. The podcast is designed to appeal not only to football fans but also other married couples recently, and I use that word loosely In Black America. Spoke with the business from Hawaii Public Radio. Aloha. Pele Bennett [00:04:20] Aloha. Michael Bennett [00:04:21] Aloha. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:23] And the staff. Pele Bennett [00:04:24] Working on it. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:25] For those who are not familiar with you, Michael, give us a little background about yourself. Were you born and raised? Michael Bennett [00:04:31] I’m originally from Louisiana, but I kind of grew up between Texas and Louisiana. Went to college at Texas A&M, uh, ended up playing for Seattle Seahawks. And that’s pretty much my journey. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:43] Did you run through Dallas for a while? Michael Bennett [00:04:45] I’m happy for the Cowboys, but I don’t know if those are if that’s what people want to hear, too, because a lot of people hate the Cowboys. Like you saying, you pay, you know, you say you play for the Cowboys, they love you or you say you play for the Cowboys and you get punched in the stomach either once. Uh. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:59] And Mr. Taylor, can you tell us about yourself? Pele Bennett [00:05:02] Yes, I am Pele Bennett. I am from Houston, Texas, but I’m a descent from Polynesia specifically, is that there’s someone Islands and me and Michael both have a foundation, the Bennett Foundation, where we work on building communities through health, food, nutrition. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:22] And how did you all meet? Pele Bennett [00:05:24] We actually met in high school in Houston. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:27] And who made the first move? Michael, you. Pele Bennett [00:05:30] Know, I’m a gentleman. Michael Bennett [00:05:32] I’m a gentleman. I waited. I waited. She. I was holding out. She just kept trying so hard. I was like, Oh, here we go. Let me give her an opportunity. Oh, So. Pele Bennett [00:05:42] Is it like. Michael Bennett [00:05:42] Yeah. So that’s what happened. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:44] So you all met in high school. And how long did it take you all to get married? Michael Bennett [00:05:49] Eight years. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:51] Eight? Pele Bennett [00:05:52] I mean, we were so young. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:53] Okay. Pele Bennett [00:05:54] 52 when I first met him. So, yeah, I was a good. Good. Well, before we actually. Michael Bennett [00:05:59] Eight years. Pele Bennett [00:06:00] Got married. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:01] Michael, when did you know that you had a special gift? Playing football. Michael Bennett [00:06:07] It was. My mama said, uh, when I was in her belly, I used to always run inside of her stomach. So I guess it started when I was a baby. No, I’m joking now. I think it really started in Louisiana. I think I really felt like I feel like I played football a certain way in California, But I feel like when I moved to Louisiana and I was like a city boy in the country, and I was able to compete and in my grandpa’s yard with the rest of the boys from all over the town. And I feel like, Oh, I’m competing out here. So I feel like that’s kind of when I knew I had some talent. I used to love playing football back home in Louisiana so much. I feel like that’s where I found my passion for it. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:45] And when you were in high school, what position did you play? The same position that you played in the pros and at. Michael Bennett [00:06:51] A&M and I should I pay running back my joke, really. I played running back all the way up to 1130. Like I never played defense. I was just off. I mean, offense. I was always running, but so and then I got so tall it it was like me. And you don’t know if you want to play running back. Pele Bennett [00:07:07] You just say that your body is not ready. Michael Bennett [00:07:10] Yeah. And I got tired. All of a sudden I got the one summer burn and it was like, I’ll playing on the defensive end. There’s a go, you play running back. So you got like goofy and all that kind of stuff. So I was like, Let me try it. And then it turned out to be a good, good decision. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:23] Finally, what were some of your favorite activities while you were in high school? Pele Bennett [00:07:27] In high school, I dabbled in sports. I did play softball. I was actually on the flag team, which a lot of people make fun of me. But that was a really fun experience. But I also grew up my family. As for work, we had a Polynesian show, so I grew up dancing Polynesian performances and we traveled all over the U.S. doing that. So that was actually an activity that I did a lot of in high school. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:52] So when you all got married, where did you all settle? Were you in Seattle at that time? Oh, Pele and. Pele Bennett [00:07:57] No, we were actually Michael was with the Buccaneers at that time and we were living in Florida. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:02] So did you. I like Tampa. Oh. Pele Bennett [00:08:05] You know what I heard? It has changed a lot and it’s an happen in place now. But at the time, I mean, we were just there for work. So everything really revolved around his career at that time. And we were really new into the NFL as well. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:20] That same we still had a barbecue place while you are there in Tampa. Michael Bennett [00:08:24] Who knew ourselves? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:25] Yeah. Leroy Oh man. Michael Bennett [00:08:27] There are so many. I should let them barbecue names. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:29] In their bread. I mean, you. Michael Bennett [00:08:32] Missy Ross I will. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:33] You couldn’t miss it on the way to the stadium. Yeah. Michael Bennett [00:08:37] You know, Louie. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:38] Dewey, Dewey. Michael Bennett [00:08:39] Cooley. They had all the brothers Louis, the the Salomon Brothers. They were so good. They’re so good at football. And. But they had them barbecue wings, though. Me and Gerald McCoy’s do, like, 25 each. Like, I just. I said Logan Leroy so and so. We used to go there all the time. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:57] Tell me about the Bennett Foundation. Pele Bennett [00:09:00] Pele Yes. So we started our foundation actually out of Hawaii when we moved here in a michael actually came up with the idea because he saw an issue in Hawaii for different nutrition programs and physical education. And so he wanted to tackle it. And he brought it home to me with this idea. And we found the most amazing people to just kind of talk about issues on health and wellness. And we started more so on the physical side of it, on how can we incorporate different programs and more education for the young, you know, students, because a lot of the schools at the time didn’t have that as part of their curriculum. And so we got amazing people together and we formed the Bennett Foundation, which now is still running. And we are going into our sixth year and we’re still fighting the same issues. And, you know, being food advocates and talking about health and nutrition. And now our girls are along with us, some of our closest friends, you know, we’ve made through our foundation in a lot of communities. You know, I feel that we have made an impact, but also they’ve made, you know, larger impact on us. I think, to be honest. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:02] Has it been difficult for others to buy into you all? Our vision for the foundation? Michael Bennett [00:10:08] Yeah, I think so. I think sometime when you move to places like are you helping in Hawaii? Like people ask the question, why? Why are you doing this? So I think it takes a lot of times for people to understand why somebody wants to have kindness and give back without action for anything in return. So, you know, it’s almost like they feel like a little Red Riding Hood, you know what I’m saying? Like, it’s like they feel like eventually there’s a wolf that’s going to come out. But then their day was really just about us loving the community and giving back in a positive fashion. But it usually takes time for people to build a organic relationship, which we understood because you just don’t pop up when people start loving you, especially when they don’t know who you are, who you are as an individual, what your family represent, and what is your foundation and principles built on as a as a collective, as a family. So it takes it takes some time. But we’ve gotten to the point where we feel like we’ve kind of made some headway here. Seattle, Houston, we’ve done a lot of things across America just for different six of people. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:02] While you were playing. Was it a mindset of always thinking about what are you going to do after football? Oh, it was. Michael Bennett [00:11:09] Always a balance. I think it was a balance. I think sometimes in football you can’t think about the future too much, too much because you can’t be in the present in the game. It’s like if you think about if you get injured before the game, then you think about it like you can’t think about what’s happening in front of you. So as a fighter, you always want to defend yourself and you got to be there mentally. So I think on the off season, a lot of people think about what they’re going to do. That’s when you mostly think about life, about the football. You really don’t think about doing the season because during the season there’s so many things happening. You got family, you’ve got games, you’ve got all these different things, massages, all these different things. You don’t have time to plan for the future. You just trying to really try to conquer that one moment. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:45] Pele How do you go about navigating time with the family, but also understanding that, you know, Michael had a job playing football and trying to balancing the two. Pele Bennett [00:11:55] So, you know what? I think as I continued, you know, we’ve just completed 11 years in the NFL. That was always a learning lesson. And I think each year I personally started to evolve and grow and our family started growing. You know, we went from one to now we have three girls. And so each year it’s still a curve ball. It’s almost like when you get pregnant again and you’re like, Oh, I have a baby, but you have to start all over again. And so each year is different. And for us, because we did travel to different cities and it’s last year we were in two cities for the first time in one season. And so there was a lot of growth. I think that happened between our our marriage, you know, our relationship and then also our children. All of us really had to tackle so many different obstacles. But I think through all the adversity that we’ve been through throughout the years of ups and downs and just kind of learning the game and how do you balance, you know, life with children and still having your me time and self-care? I think that it continues to evolve. And and sometimes when you think you got it, then you learn something else and it keeps getting better. We’ll see. So I appreciate everything that has come with football, even though it has been stressful, but it has that we’ve learned. I think to say, to be honest now, we’re really been good at being balanced as a family and we’re getting better and better. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:06] Now, I have some friends who are former football players and they wives. They told me there is a hierarchy within each team depending on the status of the player. If that’s the case. Michael Bennett [00:13:17] I think that’s in every. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:19] Fact. Michael Bennett [00:13:19] Of life. I there’s a hierarchy, see everything. I think the longer I think the players have been in the NFL is really not as well. A hierarchy is really just a respect. I think when people look at players who’s played a long time in AFL, they have a lot of respect for them because when the person played an NFL for a long time, they means you watched them for a long time. And in the moment that you in the locker room with them, you get in, you become an are and you become like, oh, okay. Like this is you, you see what type of man they are. And I think a lot of times it’s just a lot of respect and understand. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:50] If you’re just joining us, i’m john johanson Jr. And you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio and we’re speaking with Michael and Pele Bennett with Lemonade Media and the podcast Mouthpiece. How did you all come up with Lemonade Media? Michael Bennett [00:14:06] Oh, it’s a company we end up working with and we did a show called Good Kid, and it had been a while that me and Pele have been talking about doing the podcast because we were like, You know what we have? There’s not a lot of people out there talking about things as a couple, you know, raising marriage to be something strong, raising a family and talk about things like that as a couple and growing a business together and also challenging, challenging society and social issues. And so we were like, you know, we should do a podcast, but we just kind of let some time pass. We kind of talked about a couple of times, but then we end up doing that show. And after the show they were like, You guys are so good, you should do a podcast. And we were like, Okay, let’s do one. And so we just took it from there, really. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:41] How do you decide to come up with a program, podcast topic or you all just start talking and one thing leads to another. Pele Bennett [00:14:49] A lot of times that does happen one way or another, but. Michael Bennett [00:14:52] Not with guest though. Well, I guess I think is pretty much we are picking the people that we feel like we want to share information. We’re things that we don’t even know, but also things that other people don’t know that they can help on or they can have a better understanding of what’s happening in their community, what’s happening in society. So we choose a lot of guests by that. Like we talk about the different issues. We raise police things that was happening in the NFL, things just happened with the marriage cooking show like. So we talk about a lot of different things and we we kind of just pick topics that we’re really passionate about and things that we really want to. Pele Bennett [00:15:24] Highlight as well. And people we want to highlight that people might not know that’s relevant. Their work is relevant today, but themselves personally are not relevant today. So we like to recycle and go back and bring them back to light and let them tell their story. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:36] I’m looking at some of the podcasts that have already aired and I’m going to go through some of them and I hope you speak to it. Crockpot Love. What was that about? Michael Bennett [00:15:49] That was really about the essence of being in a relationship and understanding that love and everything. Does it come instant? It takes a crockpot like get the simmer and throw in different things have happened you. A relationship. And at the end of all that bubbling at the end, it takes a long time to make up the really strongly in his generation where things have to be instant. If you don’t get instant gratification, then you move on. You feel wronged and with love, you can’t do that because there’s going to be some highs, you’re going to be some lows, some trauma is going to be some death. It’s going to be all types of things that shape a relationship. And when you have a crockpot, you throw, you slowly throw different ingredients in and in love. All different ingredients happen at different times. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:29] I understand. Go ahead. Pele Bennett [00:16:30] Lee. Oh, no. I was agreeing with Michael because it is when we say crockpot, when you’re talking about throwing ingredients, you’re talking about throwing in cities, Right? Moving around. You’re talking about children. I was going to say mother in law’s father in law’s family, you know, it’s just ups and downs. But I think because a lot of people see that we’ve been together as children, they say, oh, you guys have been together so long, you know, you’ve lasted. It’s been great. But that to me, to be honest, it was harder to be together as a young couple because now we’re so young and we’re evolving into adults. But now how do we let each other evolve into an adult and learn these new things that we didn’t know each other liked? You know? And it’s as simple as that. But it was I think it was a journey for us really learning together. And it’s not as easy as it looks. Michael Bennett [00:17:14] It is as easy as it looks. Don’t me believe that people know I’m joking, but it’s a oxtail because we were talking about oxtail, you know, make a great Jamaican oxtail. You put it in and you put in all the ingredients and yet the cook that oxtail for so long to make it that gravy the southern charm. So you know we’d like we think we like to think that oxtails is a type of love that we want to be very tough. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:36] Hey, you brought up a point about moving. What was that like moving from city to city? You have to take the girls out of school. And I would assume if it happened close to the beginning of the season, the moving part fell on you. Pele Bennett [00:17:50] You are correct. No, that is correct. Because of his job. You know, the first time we moved, we were in Seattle and we had just got settled for about two weeks. And Michael got a call and said, Hey, I think I’m going to be picked up by another team. And, you know, we’re still new to this. And I said, okay, that’s fine. And I said, When do you find out? And he goes, Within an hour or two, if you came and he goes, I got the call. I said, What’s going on? He was like, I’m going to the Buccaneers. And at that time for me, you know, I’m like, What? John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:16] What’s That’s a long commute from Seattle to Tampa Bay. Pele Bennett [00:18:21] We went across the nation and I said, When are you leaving? And he goes, I’m leaving tonight. And so it’s as instant as that, as not your role is turned upside down, but it is because you you’re thrown into that unknown. And now it’s like, okay, planning. It’s like survival mode at them at that moment because you’re like, what do I do? We just moved into a place. We have so many things in that time we already had a daughter and so everything gets flipped, so he’s got to go. And I think that’s where I learned in the beginning, is that like these curveballs are thrown at you and it’s to be honest, it’s not. I can’t dwell on it. I’m like, You just got to go. You got you got to go. And so you got to come with that next plan. And so I will say that we have been lucky to be in two cities for, you know, a good amount of years. We were in Tampa for four, in Seattle for five. So only within the last few years did we really bounce around. So I really have to commend the other families that are doing this on a regular basis that, you know, I thought I understood, but now I truly understand and it’s a lot of work. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:19:13] Have you all addressed the divisiveness that’s been going on in the country for the last couple of years or maybe longer as part of your podcast on Mouthpiece? Michael Bennett [00:19:22] Yeah, we talk about everything. That’s what I’m saying. That’s what we’re saying. With so much things going on in America and there’s a couple there’s not a lot of people talking about it as a as a and finding out and I think about I like about our show is that we most of the time we don’t always agree on the outcome of an issue or how the issue should look. But we do understand that the things should change. And so we address all that. We address the presidency, we address racism within the workplace, racism within NFL, racism around the world, and gender equality with women. So we we talk about a lot of things that are happening in America and raising our kids in a society. What we look like when school violence is high or like all these different things and the depression of of society. So we talk about all this stuff. I think that’s what we want to be an unfiltered, vulnerable conversation within ourselves. Pele Bennett [00:20:08] Also to know that within a marriage we because we want to highlight being married, is that it’s okay to have those conversations in the house. You know, a lot of times people say, oh, no, I can’t talk about that with my husband or my wife, her family, their family. You know, so many people have strong beliefs and religious backgrounds and so many different things that come into play. But I think for Michael and I, we love to have those debates or conversations within our house. And I think that’s what’s beautiful about doing that within a marriage is that, yes, you’re not going to agree in so many ways, but at the end of the day, you still love each other. You’re going to keep moving forward. And also you have children now. So a lot of those issues roll over into conversations that we have with our daughters. And our oldest is 13. So she’s at an age where she does understand what’s going on. And she’s also very curious as well. She’s a lot of questions, you know, a lot of thoughts, opinions, emotions. And so we keep that really clear as we can have this open dialog within our home, within our marriage, and to let people know that it’s okay to have that, you know, you can still live in. You know, live together and things will still happen for you. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:04] Can you give me an example? Maybe about 5 minutes of a topic? If I picked a topic, you can have a brief discussion on it. Yeah. DWI and drinking. Michael Bennett [00:21:15] Okay. I mean, first DWI. It gets personal because there’s a lot of people who get DWI and there’s people who are affected by the person who wants to drink and drive. I think that’s the thing that when you see so many people that have trauma from somebody who has a DWI and not only somebody having a drinking issue, but also the possibility of there being a wreck with somebody who’s just innocent. And there’s something about DUI I just think about. Negligence of somebody else is like you could be driving and somebody else could be drinking and you have nothing to do with the drinking and you end up dying. I was watching this thing on CNN and there’s four mothers. There’s two mothers and their three daughters were going on a volleyball trip and they were just driving at 5:00 and somebody drove off the road and a DWI and it just killed them. And it’s like they were just having a normal day doing everything right and you could be impaired and make one mistake and ruin somebody whole life. Pele Bennett [00:22:08] Yeah, I think that’s important to have conversations within your home and having that support system where you have people holding you accountable to say, Hey, slow down or Hey, stop, or I’m seeing something. But I think it also triggers different ways because it doesn’t trigger emotion through drinking, you know, like you said, trauma through drinking. So there’s so many different aspects. You do have to notice that. So I think it’s important to have people that hold you accountable, that call you out, that notice these things, but that you can also lean on when you need that support. Michael Bennett [00:22:35] But it’s almost like to is like, why put yourself in a situation that could change your whole life? Like just get over people, get Uber. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:42] $5, Uber. Michael Bennett [00:22:43] I will save you a life in prison. $5 Uber ride would stop you from Trauma five Uber I would keep you for having will keep you have no driver’s license. Just use Uber, whatever it takes. It’s too easy now. Pele Bennett [00:22:55] So that is easier said than done also. Michael Bennett [00:22:57] Yeah, because everybody feels like I’m a better drink. I’m a better driver when I’m driving. Pele Bennett [00:23:00] Yeah, I know a lot of people personally that have said I’m a really good driver while I’m drunk because I’m so focused. Michael Bennett [00:23:06] People out there you listening to this show today, download some type of app. I know a long time ago you would never get in a car with a stranger. It sounds like a scary movie with Black people. This would be the part where Black people die in a movie where they would get in the car and the guy would kill them. But now it’s cool to get in somebody’s car. Could you imagine. Pele Bennett [00:23:23] That? That actually is an issue. Also, there has been issues and it’s been dangerous to go in cars like that. Michael Bennett [00:23:29] But I’m saying as you picture growing. Pele Bennett [00:23:30] Up, you know, so it’s like you’re kind of fighting all these different battles. Michael Bennett [00:23:33] Did you picture growing up that you were like being like, get in a strange car with a strange person and give them your home address? Pele Bennett [00:23:41] Oh, definitely not. Especially if you’re intoxicated. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:45] Yeah. Michael Bennett [00:23:45] So you still got to be careful, too, but at the same time, be responsible when you drive and don’t let one of your mistakes ruin your life. Pele Bennett [00:23:52] I mean, supportive to a friend and almost be responsible for them. Also, good. Michael Bennett [00:23:56] Friends don’t let friends drive home. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:57] Drunk. I know. That’s right. What is special about living in Hawaii? Pele Bennett [00:24:02] Oh, where do we start? Michael Bennett [00:24:05] I think it’s. I think for me, growing up, watching my wife’s culture, you know, as an African-American person, you kind of don’t have a lot of the pieces to your history, your dance music, your sound. I mean, there’s pieces, but it’s not in a whole where you can just take it and understand everything that’s happening or things about the culture. But with the Polynesian has been so long. And so seeing that and seeing the culture, how it is, you kind of just you kind of it kind of sweeps you up with love. Kind of and you kind of it kind of embraces you. And I think when you come to Hawaii, you see it in full fledged you see the sense of ohana. You see all these different things, the culture of Polynesian. I saw a long time growing up and it’s beautiful. Pele Bennett [00:24:44] I was going to say we were together, you know, during high school. And so I was already performing. And both my parents are from somewhere. And so Hawaii was always such a distant place, you know, But we kept the culture so strong within our family through dancing, performing food traditions. And so, Michael, during high school, you know, he got to see me perform and he was over. We had a large family get together. We had him every Sunday, so we had Polynesian food and music. And so I think he did already get a little taste of that. But then when we were able to come to Hawaii together as a family with our oldest daughter, it was a completely different change. And I think what he’s seen there, he really felt even more being in Hawaii. So there is a sense of community and love and you feel it. It’s a different vibe. And I think that’s what kind of hit him when he’s he came here the first time. He goes, okay, one day I’m going to move here. And I said, okay, Michael will see it happen. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:31] So how has the podcast reception been thus far? Michael Bennett [00:25:34] I think it’s been great. I think podcasting is the thing that you really don’t understand How much time is, I guess you when you do radio, you kind of understand the moment that you put in. But for us, you don’t realize how much work you have to do podcasting and editing and doing all these different things. So I think it’s been that part being is being good, though. Pele Bennett [00:25:51] It’s a lot of. Michael Bennett [00:25:51] Work, but it’s also been good. Being able to work with my wife on something I think is for a long period of time. It’s been we’ve been doing separate things and it’s like nice to be able to come to work and have. Tough to talk about, but then also take the puck as is being picked up very well. I think people were respecting it just to be heavy sports. They weren’t expecting it to be about real, real issues. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:11] When you all got together, you said you are home schooled girls to allow you all the flexibility to do what you are do. Pele Bennett [00:26:19] So we actually just started home school this last school year. Mhm. So they’re in the second semester now. Yeah. Michael Bennett [00:26:25] Yeah. We use a online program so it kind of works. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:28] Other than the flexibility whether you are enjoy about home schooling versus sending him off to, you know, the public school or private school. Pele Bennett [00:26:36] You know, I will say to have to know that the kids are, they’re literally at home and feeling that safety and feeling that bubble of you know, safeness and warmth that they’re within arm’s reach, you know, just being protective with everything going on in the world and everything’s happening for me, it’s really to be protective of them. And I know I can grab them or hug them, kiss them. You know, they’re right there within arm’s reach for me. That’s important. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:02] Mike, Also understand that you, a novelist, you wrote a novel. Things that make why people are uncomfortable. Yeah, well, interesting. But what were you saying in that book? Michael Bennett [00:27:14] I was just talking about the state of politics in America and the history of police violence, the history of athletics and NCAA, and trauma that happens to players when they play in the NFL and things that could happen to them after. And also talking about my relationship with my wife and and my children and how how important it is for men to be able to have emotions and break down these emotional barriers so they can be able to love properly. John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:38] Michael Bennett, former NFL defensive lineman and Super Bowl champion, activist, author and co-host of Mouthpiece. If you have questions, comments or suggestions, ask your future In Black America problems. Email us at In Black America at KUT dot org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online and tell you to dialog until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week. Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America. CDS KUT Radio 300, West Dean Keeton St., Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio. The post Michael and Pele Bennett (Ep. 28, 2020) appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.