Insomnia Coach® Podcast

In this episode, Kreuza shares her journey through the challenging landscape of insomnia and somniphobia — a fear of sleep. Initially, she found Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I) techniques helpful. However, when sleep problems returned as somniphobia, the same techniques faltered. Feeling isolated in her struggle, Kreuza realized that implementing rules around sleep were not helping her. A turning point came when she embraced a more flexible, compassionate approach to sleep. She began to practice accepting her thoughts and feelings without resistance. She practiced being kind to herself when things felt really difficult. And she engaged in activities that mattered to her, even after difficult nights. Kreuza’s story is a testament to the possibility and power of patient and kind practice of acceptance as a way to deal with deep-seated fears. It also highlights that moving past sleep struggles is often a journey of ongoing action and practice — and setbacks — rather than quick fixes. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, Kreuza, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Kreuza: Sure, I’m happy to. Thank you for having me. Martin: Let’s start right at the beginning. Um, when did your sleep problems begin? And what do you think first caused those issues with sleep? Kreuza: So my first, uh, issue with sleep was actually in 2013, um, which I did CBT. Kreuza: It was very mechanical. There was, um, it was just go to bed at this time, wake up at this time. And so, um, there was really not much else to it. And so I overcame that in a few months. And, um, but the, the, um, last year I also had insomnia. But with Somniphobia on top of that. So that’s so that was way more challenging than just the insomnia itself that that required more than just, um, the mechanical CBT get up at this time, go to bed at this time Martin: When you were first struggling with sleeping, you kind of practice these CBT-I techniques. Martin: Um, you found them helpful at the time, and then it was kind of a little bit further down the road. Some sleep disruption showed up again. Did you? Yeah. Did you try re implementing those techniques? Um, and if so, what do you feel like the difference was that time around the second time around when you tried implementing those? Kreuza: I sure did. So, so I, so I was familiar. So, because since I did struggle with insomnia 10 years ago, um, I, I always, it always kind of stuck with me ever since then that, Oh, I’m just a person who has trouble sleeping. Like I just, That kind of stuck with me, but it wasn’t really a problem for about a decade. Kreuza: I mean, I would have, it was a nuisance at times. I would have periods that my sleep would be, you know, not so great. And then it would kind of fix itself. So it wasn’t a big issue for, for that period of time for that decade. Um, until, um, until last year when. I mean, it really just, as it tends to start, it really just started with a couple of nights not sleeping well, and then it spiraled. Kreuza: And I, and I said, well, I’ve been through this before, I know what to do, and I know the protocol, I’ve done it before, and I know that it works. So, I started to implement it on my own. And I gave myself a certain amount of time in bed, I would, I would follow it pretty religiously. I stuck to my, to my, um, my schedule, but I noticed that it wasn’t getting better. Kreuza: And so, and in fact, it was actually getting worse. And so that’s when it really started to spiral out of control. Martin: Why do you feel that these CBT-I techniques were perhaps really helpful first time around, but then that, then later on when you tried to implement them again. The kind of results weren’t aligning with what you got the first time around. Kreuza: Right. I actually think that’s because I was trying to do it on my own. The first time I had a therapist and I think that knowing that I have this support from another person and, and so when, because I, I do remember, I mean, it was such a long time ago. It was a whole decade had gone by since. Since that happened. Kreuza: So I don’t remember everything, but I, I do recall that when I was having, uh, trouble sleeping at night, I was able to email him or I would go to his office. I, I remember every Friday I was going and discussing my week with him. And I think I was just getting that encouragement from him that keep going, this is normal. Kreuza: This happens to other clients. So I would, I would have that sense of calm from him, which I didn’t have when I was just doing good on my own. Um, and so I think that that’s. Why? And I, and when you’re already struggling so much, um, you really can’t calm yourself down. You don’t need somebody from the outside to help you. Kreuza: So I think that that’s why the second time, instead of getting better with the CBT, I, um, it actually got worse because I think it’s more than just a mechanical go to bed at this time, get up at this time. I think there’s, I think it’s more than that. I mean, if at least for in my case, because it was, it got to the point that it was so bad. Kreuza: And that there was fear cropping up and anxiety that I don’t, I did need more than just the, um, just as a restriction. I needed more than that. Martin: Your experience definitely isn’t unique there. And it’s something I’ve heard from quite a few people that, um, maybe they’d tried CBT-I and found it really helpful. Martin: And then at some point in the future, the kind of sleep disruption came back and then. All those techniques that once were helpful don’t seem to be working in the same way. Um, and I don’t think it means that You know, there was no value to them or that you’re doing something wrong this time around. I think there can be two components, really. Martin: One, which you’ve already mentioned. You know, if you’ve got that support from someone, whether it’s a therapist or a coach, it makes the world of difference, right? Regardless of what kind of changes you’re making. And I think, second of all, sometimes The kind of rigidity, or the really, the kind of narrow structure, you know, the inflexibility, perhaps, of CBT-I techniques themselves, can contribute to this sense that their intention is to make sleep happen or their intention is to get rid of insomnia, that there are rules and that if you follow these rules, then sleep will happen and wakefulness will be gone. Martin: Um, whereas really the way CBT-I techniques are intended to work is they kind of, Address the behaviors that can perpetuate sleep disruption, you know, that can add kind of add fuel to the flames Um, so doing things like going to bed a lot earlier because we’re chasing after sleep or staying in bed later um and so What I think can happen i’m curious to know if you feel like this might have been relevant to you was We can believe that it was You know, only going to bed at a certain time, or only, or always getting out of bed at a certain time, responding in a very specific way to wakefulness when it shows up. Martin: We can believe that all those kind of rules and rituals have actually made sleep happen, have actually got rid of insomnia. And then, when we come back to re implementing them again, we can believe that, okay, if we just do this Sleep will get back on track. These will make sleep happen. These techniques will get rid of insomnia. Martin: And then if they don’t, then we start to get worried that, Uh oh, now there’s something really uniquely wrong. Um, do you feel like that, does that sound familiar or relevant? Kreuza: One hundred percent. Um, everything that you said is relevant for me. And in fact, you know, looking back now, Um, I can say that, uh, you know, where, where I was in my life 10 years ago and, and, and last year you’re, you’re in such different mental, I mean, you’re, first of all, just the physical changes that happened that occur in your body. Kreuza: So, so naturally I probably just need less amounts of sleep or, or, or just who I am has changed so much. So what worked for me 10 years ago, wouldn’t work for me now, but sure. This makes sense to me now that I’m fine. But when you’re going through it. It’s hard for you to rationalize these things. And so you just, all you, all you can think is that there’s something wrong with me now that’s unfixable. Kreuza: And that’s what, that’s what I started to believe is that something just happened in my body that was making it impossible for me to get better. Um, and, and also what you, I want to address what you mentioned about, um, about, you know, the, just the, the mechanical, uh, the schedule, the restrictions that we implement. Kreuza: Yes, that works. Of course it’s. it’s crucial in getting rid of your insomnia. But in fact, I also, I also believe that it’s how you choose to, how you implement it. Because I, and I do want to say that prior to you, I did have another therapist, a sleep sleep coach, and he was very focused on this aspect of go to bed at this time and wake up at this time. Kreuza: He put so much emphasis in that that it actually made me quite paranoid about Not being in bed any longer than I, than, than he suggested. So I actually do recall that it was under his care that I started to become actually worse. Um, and it’s around that time that the somniphobia started, in fact. So, it really does matter that you find somebody that can give you the information, but also give it to you in a pretty, um, flexible and compassionate manner. Martin: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think that it’s, I think it can be helpful to kind of, Go shop, like see, looking for a coach or a therapist as no different really to shopping, to shopping around, to finding something that’s right for you because the way one, one person’s approach might kind of really align with what you’re looking for, um, another person’s approach might not, um, it doesn’t mean that that approach is good or bad. Martin: It just means it’s not right for you and that’s perfectly okay, right? And so if we work with someone and find that’s not working out, yeah. Doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you or that what you’re learning isn’t useful. It just means, you know, that that’s not the, the right individual for you. Um, and that’s, that’s perfectly okay. Martin: It’s all part of the process. Kreuza: And if you remember, actually, when I emailed you, one of the first things I said was, well, can we keep it flexible? How long I stay in bed or if I, if I stay a little longer, um, it’s okay. Or if I go to bed a little earlier, sometimes it’s okay. And you said it’s fine. And already, just with you saying that, I started to feel calmer. Martin: It’s so interesting because some people really love the flexibility. Other people really love the rigidity, right? Everyone is so different. Um, but the, the, you know, the way I like to see it is. If we’re able to look back or remember a time when sleep wasn’t an issue or a concern, we might then ask ourselves, well, how many kind of rules and rituals did I have around sleep then? Martin: Did I have a rule that I could only go to sleep at a certain time? Did I have a rule that if I was awake, I had to get out of bed? Did I have a rule that I couldn’t read in bed? Or did I have a rule that I can’t watch TV at night? Often our experience is a good indicator there, right? Because for most of us, we didn’t really have many rules, rituals around sleep, but then Now we might have more and yet we’re struggling. Martin: So maybe there’s a little insight there. Kreuza: Yeah, and I was thinking about that as well. Um, but of course, again, um, when you’re trying to do things on your own, you’re not really thinking straight. So you do, you need that reminder, you need that other person to tell you these things, that you’re actually kind of forgetting when you’re going through insomnia. Martin: When, when your mind identifies a problem, it’s going to focus so much attention on the problem, right, and fixing the problem, making your focus just becomes like a laser, and it’s really hard to see anything else or any big picture, or even just the context of your own experience, and that’s where it can be helpful to have someone to work with, to help you, to help guide you, really, because that’s all that I think coaches or therapists are doing, right? Martin: All the real work is done. By you, the client, um, really the coach or the therapist is just guiding you and just trying to open you up to, you know, reach in the goals that, that you want to achieve or the goals that you want to reach for yourself. And to motivate you and to keep you on track. Kreuza: I mean, you actually helped me so much with, um, if you remember, I was, Very unmotivated. Kreuza: I didn’t have the energy or the desire to do much Especially because I felt so tired and I felt like everybody could see that the the tiredness in my face and when I’d go outside I’d see everybody looking so rested and full of life and I didn’t feel like I fit in with everybody So, um, so I just wanted to be a recluse and isolate myself But in fact you encouraged me to go out and do things that I like. Kreuza: So if you remember, um, I was doing a lot of hiking because it was, you know, it was more on my own. Me and my dad would go hiking, and in fact, I do remember And especially being out in the sunshine, which is, which is crucial for, you know, like setting, um, you know, your sleep schedule. Um, so I was doing a lot of hiking at the time, even though I was tired, you encouraged me to do it anyway. Kreuza: And I found that by doing that, it would lower my anxiety levels and. It, it, that actually did help me become tired enough to fall asleep the next day or at night. So that really helped. And that’s what, that’s one of the things that that was my mistake actually, is that when I started to struggle with sleep initially, I quit my job. Kreuza: I didn’t leave the house. I didn’t want to talk to anybody. So doing all of those, then your whole life revolves around your insomnia. And that’s all that you’re thinking about. You have no other, there’s it, that’s your, your life becomes insomnia now. Martin: Yeah, and it tends to make things even more difficult, right? Kreuza: Yes. Martin: Yeah, I’ve, sometimes I like to kind of picture it as, you know, we’ve got this, unpleasant thing that’s present in our lives, insomnia. Um, so if we kind of draw a circle that represents our life and we write the word insomnia in that circle, um, and then we kind of consider everything else that’s going on in our lives. Martin: So maybe our family, our job, our hobbies, our interests, and we write all that into the circle as well. There’s a lot of stuff there. The insomnia is still there, right? But there’s also lots of other stuff. But what can happen, because insomnia is so difficult, is we can start moving away from all that other stuff. Martin: So now we’re starting to pull all that stuff out of the circle. We’re not seeing friends and family so much. We might not go into work. We might quit our jobs. We might not engage in our hobbies. And so what we’re left with is this circle of our life, and there’s kind of only one thing left. And it’s just insomnia. Martin: And so as we’re taking all those things out, which is completely understandable why we would do that, because it’s really difficult to do the stuff that matters. in the presence of insomnia. But when we are doing that, we’re kind of increasing the focus. We’re kind of concentrating that insomnia. So it becomes all that’s all that’s left really. Kreuza: And it’s fine to, I mean, everybody will make their adjustments when they’re going through this next. That’s fine. Um, but I think that still, if you can’t go to work, do something that you enjoy, do something else. Even if it’s just for a little bit. Um, just so, just to, maybe you’re not going to completely get your mind out of it. Kreuza: You’re, but at least you’re, you’re helping yourself. Um, to, to, to, to not focus on just your insomnia, uh, all day long, every day. So yeah, I think that you should really, what, because I, for me, it took a lot of pushing myself going against my instinct to stay indoors and kind of mope around and, you know, wallow in my misery, um, I actually did have to. Kreuza: Push myself even though I didn’t want to so it was it was work. You know, it wasn’t easy Did I want to get dressed at 8 a. m at with two hours of sleep and hike a mountain? Not necessarily, but I trusted you. I I know that that’s what it required for me to get better So I did it and in fact the more that you do it, you’ll see that eventually As hard as it is in the beginning it does get easier over time and you’ll see that it’s helping you and I if I can tell one quick story, um, I This is exactly what happened is one morning I hadn’t slept that the night before I think maybe two hours maybe like You know, um, if even that And my dad said, let’s go hiking. Kreuza: It was a good, it was a nice day outside. And I said, no way. I, I was feeling particularly anxious that morning. And, uh, and then I remembered what you said. And so I said, no, Martin says go out. So I said, okay, I will do it. I don’t want to, but I will. Um, and so about halfway up the mountain, the hill, I remember just feeling so anxious and wanted to turn back. Kreuza: But then somewhere in that journey or in that, you know, hike, um, my anxiety just started to, um, to, to, to dissipate. I wasn’t feeling anxious. My heart rate actually slowed down. And by the time that I reached the top, I felt fine. I wasn’t having even those negative thoughts anymore. And I actually felt I was in a pretty good mood. Kreuza: So. So that experience helped me to, then the next day or the few days later, then I was initiating the hikes because I noticed that it helped me feel better. Martin: Yeah, I think that’s a great story. And, you know, that can be such a great bonus associated with doing things that matter to us, right? Is we can just, our attention just kind of expands and anxiety can either fall away, um, or just kind of lose its power and influence over us. Martin: Um, but, you know, And also, what I think the kind of real benefit is, is let’s say that anxiety didn’t even fade away, let’s say it still remained pretty intense. Maybe what matters most is the fact that you were still doing something important. That was, you know, um, aligned with your values that kept you moving toward the life you want to live. Martin: Um, even in the presence of that anxiety. You know, so you still are moving in the right direction. You know, you’re doing something that matters. You’re moving toward the life you want to live, the person you want to be. Even after a difficult night, even if that anxiety remains at a 9 out of 10 or a 10 out of 10. Martin: Even in its presence, you’ve done that thing that matters to you. I think that, that’s, that’s just, it can just be so important and so helpful, um, to, to, to, to just kind of adopt that approach, which is not easy, exactly as you’ve described. Kreuza: Yeah, it takes work. It does. Um, and if, if, uh, if it’s okay, actually, I’d like to talk about the, the somniphobia, because that’s something that I hadn’t experienced the first time. Kreuza: So, so just to give you some, some context, the, the, the insomnia started, I believe in April. Martin: So, April 2022. Kreuza: And, and I, cause I remember quitting my job in May. So it must have been really bad. I mean, um, I do remember that I, I, I don’t think I was sleeping at all, or I felt like I wasn’t, or if I was, it was micro sleeps, you know, some people say I’m only getting like three or four hours. Kreuza: That would have been great. I wasn’t, I felt like I wasn’t getting any. And, um, and then, and then, yeah, so then I think it was, In probably May is when I had that therapist that I mentioned earlier, um, and then I moved, so I wouldn’t, I want to say like maybe June is when the somniphobia started or July, early July. Kreuza: So it took a couple of months. And so really all that happened and it’s, it’s just, you know, like seemingly out of nowhere because everything just seems to start with a single thought and then it spirals out of control from there. I just remember being awake one night and you know, when you’re awake at night and everyone’s sleeping, you know, you just, you, and you’re already going through, like you’re already kind of depressed cause you can’t sleep and all these things, you’re having all these negative thoughts. Kreuza: And, um, so I remember just laying, it was middle of the night, I’m laying in bed and, Try attempting to sleep and um, I was aware of the process of falling asleep So I was so hyper aware of the fact that i’m a if I do fall asleep i’m going to be Unconscious i’m not going to be aware of my surroundings of what happens to me I just felt like vulnerable to anything on the outside debt, like harming me in some way. Kreuza: Um, so I know that I was being quite irrational, but you’re not really thinking that way. I mean, you’re, cause your emotions take over. So it was just one thought that was the only thought. And then the next day I remember like, it just kept creeping up into my head. This, this, this one thought, and then it just, I don’t even know. Kreuza: But so quickly within a couple of few days, It took, completely took over, and every night that I would go to bed, that’s all I could think about, all night, all night, I was afraid to close my eyes, I was afraid to, like, now I was afraid to fall asleep, so, having just insomnia, then I’m like, I wish I just had that problem now, because now, I don’t, you know, now, so I’m, I’m actually afraid now to fall asleep, because I’m worried that something’s gonna happen to me, um, I’m worried that if I’m unconscious, that That something’s going to harm me. Kreuza: Um, and I was completely aware of how irrational that was. And if you don’t mind, I can, I can mention what, what the, what my thought was, if it’s okay. I was worried that somebody was going to break in my house and, um, like chop my legs off. I think I even mentioned it to you. So it was a very scary visual. Kreuza: I knew the whole time that it was irrational and I was trying to rationalize my. Myself out of these scary thoughts. But when your anxiety is so high and your emotions are taking over, you really cannot rationalize or use logic to get out of, um, to get out of these, um, emotional, like high intent, emotional states. Kreuza: Um, So, so yeah, so that’s, that’s what was keeping me up was this idea that something that I was just vulnerable and unconscious and anything could hurt, could harm me. What was so hard is because that I was desperate for sleep, but at the same time I was afraid that it would happen. And that is exactly when I, that’s when I reached out to you, but that is exactly when, um, I felt completely helpless. Kreuza: I don’t think I’ve ever felt that helpless in my life. I was a hundred percent sure that there was nothing that can be done because I, I, um, was looking this up and it just was so rare. I couldn’t find any information about it. And not only that, but there was also this aspect of shame because I just felt like It was such a silly thing to be afraid of. Martin: They all come from just that, the brain just doing its job of looking out for us, except it’s maybe trying so hard that it’s kind of getting in the way. Alright, so with insomnia, typically the brain is just trying to protect us from Wakefulness from being awake because it sees it as a problem probably because we’ve just struggled with wakefulness for so long the brain learns Wakefulness is a threat. Martin: It’s got to be alert to protect us from that threat And similarly with the somniphobia now, it’s kind of the brain’s like, oh, well, maybe falling asleep is a threat too You know, so we have to kind of be alert to protect you from falling asleep as well now. So your desire to, to sleep was unchanged through this, just as you described, you still wanted sleep to happen. Martin: But in the background, your brain is there with alarm bells ringing, red flashing lights, you know, sirens, everything, just trying so hard to protect you that it was getting in the way. Um, I mean, I, I think it’s useful to Recognize that because sometimes it can feel like our brain is kind of an adversary, you know, that it’s working against us, but really it’s just actually trying so hard to be on our side that it’s kind of getting in the way a little bit. Martin: Um, which can sound quite unusual, but maybe now you’re able to look back on your experience. Do you feel that, um, you know, there’s any sense in what I’m saying? Kreuza: Yes, of course, in retrospect, it all makes sense now that I’m able to think about it. And I think clearly, yes, of course, it all makes sense. But in the moment, you actually really start to, in the moment when you’re going through it, you really start to, um, In a way despise your the way that your brain works because you just feel like it’s against you. Kreuza: I mean I Yes, technically. Yes. It’s working for you. But really what it’s doing. It’s it’s It’s not because it’s making your life miserable and, and the, the, the problem is, is that most, most problems in life we’re using logic to resolve. You can’t do that here. Um, you really can’t use logic. You can’t rationalize yourself out of this problem, this particular problem. Kreuza: So it takes a whole other approach and one that we’re not acclimated to doing, which is acceptance. Um, because you feel like by acceptance, you feel like, like, Oh, am I just being apathetic? That’s not real. I’m not actually doing anything. How can I accept this? All these things go through your mind, but really it is the key. Kreuza: It is the one thing that’s gonna work. Um, and it is, it is what got me out of it Martin: and I’m really keen to talk more about that with you. Definitely. Yeah. Um, and I think maybe a kind of little intro to that is it’s so easy to. Respond to all this really difficult stuff in the opposite way of acceptance. Um, which typically is, you know, trying to fight what the mind is doing. Martin: Um, so if the mind is trying to protect us from wakefulness by generating a lot of anxiety, we can start trying to suppress that anxiety, trying to distract ourselves, uh, trying to go to war with our minds. Um, and then when it It doesn’t maybe work, maybe temporarily distraction can help, but when all that stuff comes back, when we are no longer distracted, then we can be really hard on ourselves, right? Martin: Um, because we will be like, well, I’m trying so hard, but this is still here. This is still a problem. Why is this a problem? What’s wrong with me? So then we can put more effort into trying to go to war with our minds, trying to control our thoughts and feelings, trying to get rid of certain thoughts and feelings, trying to welcome only other certain thoughts and feelings, and Before we know it, we’re just tangled up in such a struggle and we’re also just being so hard on ourselves that it just makes everything so much more difficult. Martin: Was that your experience at first before you kind of changed your approach and explored the opposite, the opposite way Kreuza: forward? Yeah, I was basically, I was trying to distract myself. I thought that was the answer. Um, I. But of course you can’t I mean this is pervasive now This is this has become such a big problem in my life that how can you distract yourself from something this this huge? Kreuza: I was trying to solve it of course again rationally and again Like I said, it’s you can’t rationalize your your you know, you can’t rationalize yourself out of something like this Um, you have to tend to the emotions, to the, you know, to the root of the, to the actual emotions. Um, it’s not logic that’s going to get you out of this kind of situation. Kreuza: Um, but I didn’t know how to do that. I had, I had, I had read a book by, uh, by Daniel, um, from the sleep school coach, school coach. I’d read a book from him and he talks about acceptance and it’s one thing to read a book and you can even absorb and understand all the information but implementing it is really the key and I think that what I needed was you to explain to me exactly what to do because it’s, I needed that guidance, you know, like I can read a book and understand what it’s telling me. Kreuza: But actually doing it and implementing it in my life every day that that actually I need, I needed someone to explain to me exactly how to do it and exactly how that works. And that’s why you were so helpful is that you told me exactly what I needed to do. Um, and so that’s when I started to see improvement. Martin: You know, first of all, I think, I think the book you might be referring to is set it and forget it by Daniel Erichsen. Yeah. Um, actually, uh, uh, just lives half an hour away from me, which is crazy. Um, with two, two people that, um, do a lot of, Insomnia work, um, for us to live so close together is quite funny. Martin: But yeah, good friend of mine and yeah, he, I really love his approach as well. We’ve very similar approaches, right? In terms of what tends to make things more difficult is when we get tangled up in a struggle that’s caused by trying to control things, difficult things. That our experience might be telling us can’t be directly or permanently controlled anyway. Martin: And I, I think sometimes where we can get tripped up is because, you know, what does acceptance mean? Um, does it mean accepting the, I’m never going to sleep again? Does it mean accepting the, my life is just going to be crippled by anxiety again? Cause those things kind of are unacceptable, right? Um, and so I think it’s important to clarify. Martin: What acceptance actually means and since you kind of went through this process yourself I might put you on the spot a little bit here But if I was to ask you to describe what acceptance is or what acceptance means How would you answer that? Kreuza: So it’s exactly what? what I wanted to talk about actually because initially I was I was thinking that acceptance and is accepting my situation and accepting that it’s not going to change and just learning to live with it and just being apathetic. Kreuza: And that is not what it means at all. What it means as the way that I understood it is that whatever you’re feeling in this moment, whatever anxiety, whatever thoughts you’re having, you accept it in this, in this moment, you sit with it. You just accept that you’re having it now. That’s all that it means. Kreuza: You accept that you’re having it now. you sort of tend to it gently. So I’ll tell you what, what I, what I, what I would do is I, um, I mean, I was having these negative thoughts, these scary thoughts with, you know, what I mentioned about like the intruders coming in and harming me hundreds of times a day. I would really just, they would come, I mean, on a loop, they would just, and so what I would do is, and this took work, but I do it is I go to the couch or the bed. Kreuza: I put my hand on my chest and I would just tell myself, I’m having this thought. It’s fine. I’m just having this thought. It’s just a thought And when I did that believe it or not is when is when it would get less and less intense every time Um, if I try to distract myself or rationalize it, they would come back stronger. Kreuza: But if I would just tell myself I’m just having a thought. It’s okay. It’ll pass gently. Um, yeah, they would sort of, yeah, they would just sort of go and come back less frequently. And so what, so, but so I did this, um, literally every time the thoughts come, I would do it hundreds of times a day. I would actually, even if, if I wasn’t at home, let’s say I was hiking or at the store or whatever, and I couldn’t, you know, do my technique. Kreuza: Then I would just, what I did was I started to visualize a window opening up. In my subcon in my conscious mind and the thoughts were just sort of. fly out the window gently. I, I wasn’t hard on myself anymore. I started to be more compassionate with myself and I would just visualize these thoughts flying out the window. Kreuza: And, um, and so, yeah, I mean, I, when I, when I’d catch myself, because of course there were times that I would catch myself later on, but as soon as I did, I’d become aware of these thoughts. Then I would just open up that window and they’d fly right out and eventually they would just be less and less intense and less frequent. Martin: So it sounds like the way you’re describing it. It’s kind of like you’re instead of that reflex response, which I think virtually all human beings are hardwired to respond in this way of You know trying to push certain thoughts and feelings away Um, you were kind of practicing acknowledging them Making space for them to exist and allowing them to kind of just come and go as they chose rather than putting on that big suit of armor, putting the war paint on and trying to kind of go to war with them. Martin: Does that sound like an accurate kind of summary? Kreuza: Exactly, exactly. And it’s just so much easier to do that than to do all the other techniques of the distracting, the, you know, as you said, going to war with your thoughts. Accepting it actually is so much easier once you get into the habit of it. Then it becomes easier, but it, but because it’s so different, it’s such a different approach that you do have to develop the habit, which can take some time, but once you have, then actually you’ll find that it’s much easier to do that. Kreuza: Um, and I would like to mention one more thing, actually, because somniphobia is quite rare, at least from my research, I couldn’t, you know, as you can imagine, initially, I was looking up what this, Even was and I couldn’t find much information However, I did find a girl on Daniel’s channel who had who described everything that I was going through And I reached out to her. Kreuza: So at the same time that I was, um, with you working with you, I was also speaking with, um, emailing back and forth with her sometimes and just her validating my experience because it’s such an unusual experience to have just her validating it, saying, telling me that she had gone through the same thing and she overcame it with the same technique. Kreuza: Um, that also really helped me. Um, I thought that was really important for me just to hear that because every other video was just about the insomnia. But for me it was. You know, even more than that. So, so yeah, having her, her, her video and her support Was crucial in me getting better. I’m sure I would have gone better anyway But I think maybe just helped me get better possibly a little faster. Martin: That’s great to hear that. Did you pick up any specific Insights that you haven’t already mentioned from your communication with that person? Kreuza: No she really just said the same thing. She just said, you have to accept every thought that comes every whenever it comes. Um, she motivated me as well as you did to stay on track because you know, you get tired, the thoughts keep coming. Kreuza: They’re coming every day. They’re coming for weeks or months or however long they, you know, you might be struggling for and you just want to get better already. And so, um, and so you, you’ll revert back to the same methods sometimes that you used before you knew about acceptance because it may be just comes more readily to you. Kreuza: But really, um, you and, and her name was Melina. She helped keep me on track and, um, and motivated me to, to, to continue with this. Acceptance technique. Martin: I think it’s really important to emphasize that it, it kind of is a process of ongoing practice. Um, you know, responding to thoughts in a, in a way other than going to war with them, than trying to fight or avoid them. Martin: It is a process and like you just said, the mind is always gonna kind of revert back to reaching for that sword. You know, you’re always gonna get pulled back into trying to struggle with those thoughts and feelings again. And that’s. Natural and normal. Even if you feel like you’re making really good progress for weeks or months. Martin: You know, these thoughts and feelings don’t go away. It’s kind of like if we learn a second language, we add that new language to our mind, but we don’t lose the first language from our mind, right? Right, you’re training yourself. So that stuff’s still there. Yeah, that’s exactly it. And so we’re still going to get pulled back into the old ways every now and again, the ways that our experience tells us aren’t helpful. Martin: And that’s natural and normal. It’s just a case of noticing when this happens kindly. bringing ourselves back to maybe a more workable approach that involves listening to what the mind is saying, acknowledging what it’s saying. We don’t have to force ourselves to believe it. We don’t have to rationalize it. Martin: We just have to listen, you know, acknowledge what it’s saying. Then maybe it doesn’t have to keep repeating itself louder and louder because it thinks we’re ignoring it. Listen to what it’s saying, and then kind of make space. for whatever it wants to think or feel, and then refocus our attention on where we are and what we’re doing. Martin: And of course, it sounds so easy and so simple for us to sit here and talk about this. But as you said, putting it into practice is difficult. It requires work, effort, and ongoing practice. Kreuza: Yeah, I do want to emphasize it apps. I mean, I’m sure I’m coming off as very calm right now, but it wasn’t easy at all. Kreuza: It took so much effort, it, uh, uh, patience, a lot of patience, um, and, and, you, and just awareness, because you won’t, you’ll be surprised at the thoughts you’re having if you’re not actually aware of them, because, like, okay, I can a thought like, okay, what if somebody barges in and harms me, but then at the same time, I could be having another thought like, oh, this isn’t, this isn’t ever going to work. Kreuza: I mean, I was having those, those doubts constantly, every day, daily, multiple times a day, my brain was saying, this isn’t going to work. Um, you, you know, I mean, just, just so many scary thoughts. And, um, And so you really do have to, even when I was getting those thoughts, I w you, you, you should, I, at least I wouldn’t tell myself, no, it’s going to work because I don’t know that it’s going to work. Kreuza: So you just accept you’re having even that thought you just really X you. So every, whatever you’re thinking or feeling, you just have to accept it kindly and, and patiently and just stick to the same, uh, technique. Martin: Yeah. And again, all of those thoughts and feelings, again, it’s not the brain trying to work against you. It’s the brain looking out for you. You know, it’s trying to protect you. You know, it’s like, this isn’t going to work. Let’s go back to trying, trying harder, even though. What we might have been trying before doesn’t work. Martin: The brain kind of gets out of ideas, um, because almost everything responds well to effort, right? But difficult thoughts, feelings, and sleep, they don’t respond well to effort. And then the brain kind of hits this dead end. It’s kind of run out of ideas. So it tries to pull you back into just trying through effort. Martin: It’s not the brain working against you. It’s completely natural and normal for that to happen. It’s the brain looking out for you. Um, and it’s just a case, like you said, of just recognizing that maybe seeing it as just another opportunity to practice acknowledging. What you’re thinking and feeling, making space for it to exist and then just refocusing your attention. Kreuza: And in fact, uh, being aware of the techniques helped me just even with other negative thoughts. I, I have to admit, I haven’t been using it as much as I was before with the insomnia, but I, I have found myself, um, going back to it in, in, in other circumstances. With other things. It doesn’t have to be just with sleep. Kreuza: It can be any other stresses in life or problems that you’re having and you’re trying to work through them and you go into this loop in your head. Well, you can actually just take a step back and use the technique and you’ll find that. It’s really calming. It’s a really calming time. And for me I’m somebody who’s kind of naturally very like jittery and have a hard time like sitting still and, you know, maybe like a little bit energetic or whatever, you know, um, my, I’m always thinking, I’m always analyzing. Kreuza: I like to write, I write a lot. So, um, so yeah, I’m just that kind of person by nature. So taking a step back from me isn’t, doesn’t come easy. Um, but. But, but again, you just have to train yourself and I, so yeah, you just, you really have to just put in the effort and when you see the outcomes, when you see that it actually works, you’ll, you’ll want to use it because you see that there’s something to this. Kreuza: Um, and I’m, I’m really like, I’m really an advocate for this now because I, I found that it’s so helpful, um, not just with sleep, but just in life with, with, with many problems in life. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve sort of used this and, um. When other things fail, this kind of always seems to work. It always seems to at least help calm me down, which is great. Martin: I completely agree. I think as soon as we just acknowledge whatever we’re thinking or feeling, even if it’s really difficult stuff, um, I, I’m not sure. I think it just almost takes the pressure off of ourselves that It kind of gives us permission to experience it as soon as we acknowledge it, rather than continuously trying to fight or avoid it. Martin: And just that in itself can be a weight off of our shoulders. Um, and I think it can also make it easier for us to do things that matter. You know, things that are important to us because we’re freeing up all that energy and attention that might be focused on fighting or avoiding certain thoughts and feelings. Martin: And instead we’re just allowing them to exist, we’re freeing up that energy and attention to do things that are important to us, even in the presence of that difficult stuff. Kreuza: Yeah, and you can sort of feel the stress melting away if you really stick with it. Um, so yeah, um, and I actually would like to mention one more thing because I made it seem like it was just a linear progression, but in fact it wasn’t. Kreuza: There were many setbacks. And, um, and so I just encourage people to continue even when there are setbacks because I most likely there will be. I mean, for me, there were, um, and when you get these setbacks, you think, well, I’m back at square one. It’s not working. What’s the point of trying? You’re going to have. Kreuza: I had, I certainly had these thoughts. And um, but yeah, you just have to get really good at catching yourself when you’re having these thoughts and just sticking with the technique because what I was telling myself as well, I managed to sleep pretty okay for a week, let’s say, or a few days, which I wasn’t doing a month ago, so obviously something’s working. Kreuza: So you’d have to just remind yourself of that and then just stick to it. And almost expect there’s going to be setbacks. Martin: Yeah, I completely agree. And I always like to say, just as every human being has difficult days from time to time, we all have difficult nights from time to time. It’s when we maybe, we kind of succumb to that temptation of overanalyzing when those difficult nights come back or when the difficult thoughts and feelings come back that we can get pulled back and tangled up in that struggle again. Martin: So yeah, absolutely. The ups and downs are completely normal. I like to think of it as another opportunity to just keep practicing this new approach because it is a skill and skills take a lot of practice. And when we’re learning skills, sometimes we can feel like we’re making really good progress. Um, we’re kind of flying through, I don’t know, the training manual, so to speak. Martin: And then there’s other times where it feels like. We didn’t even start learning yet. Like, it feels like we’re back to square one, we can’t even read a page of this, uh, progress manual, this new skills development manual. But it’s, it’s all part of the journey. Um, so I’m really glad that you mentioned that it’s I’m still yet to meet someone that just found completely linear progress every single night and every single day was better than the previous one. Martin: Yep. So just in terms of a practical sense, so if someone’s listening to this and they think, yeah, this sounds good. I think I want to explore this approach in terms of how this can be applied, um, and how you applied it in your own experience. So let’s say, let’s start by just kind of being in bed. So you kind of getting into bed, um, You might, all those sirens start going off in your brain, you know, the flashing lights, you start to feel really anxious or scared, all those stories start appearing. Martin: What do you do next if you want to pursue this kind of acceptance, this alternative approach? Kreuza: Right, so when I would go into, I would go to bed, and immediately, you know, the bed was the trigger really, um, immediately I would just have these, Scary thoughts and they were really scary. They were even graphic. Kreuza: And yeah, so, um, um, I’m surprised. I don’t even know what they came from. It’s, it’s so strange, but, but yeah, so, um, I would, I, I would just, like I said, I would, I’d, I’d put my, my hand on my chest. I feel my heart racing and it was racing really, like really fast and um, and I would just all the thoughts, all the feelings, everything, I would just tell myself it’s okay, you’re just, you’re just experiencing these thoughts right now and it’s okay to just sit with them and that’s all I did is I was, I wasn’t judging, I wasn’t It’s okay. Kreuza: Trying to change them. I was just sitting there with them. And yes, it does take a lot of patience because you don’t want them there. Um, but I, I, I just, you know, I, I started to have some compassion for myself. Um, and I just, you know, I sort of started to treat myself as like a scared child because in a way that’s kind of what it felt like. Kreuza: It’s like if you have a kid who’s afraid of the monster under the bed, I kind of felt like I was that kid who’s afraid of the monsters going to get them. And so, well, how would I treat that kid? Would I berate them? No. I would sit there with them patiently and comfort them. So that’s what I did with myself. Kreuza: And, uh, and I did this, yeah, every night. Every night. Martin: So, you’re lying in bed, um, you kind of got your hands on your heart, you’re noticing that your heart is racing, you’re maybe talking to yourself or acting in a kind way towards yourself, um, rather than kind of berating yourself, which is so easy to do when we’re tangled up in all this difficult stuff. Martin: Um, Would, would, would you then just be in that state or engaging in that practice, you know, for the rest of the night, like whether that was three hours, four hours, five hours, six hours, or did you kind of do that for a certain amount of time and then try something else? I’m just curious to know like what this looked like over the course of a night. Kreuza: It was different every night. So, um, some, some nights, um, if I got really frustrated, I would get up. And, uh, I’d go to the living room and watch TV. Um, and then if I felt sleepy, I’d go back to my bed and start the process again. I wouldn’t, I don’t think I ever did it, the technique all night. I don’t think I ever did that, but I certainly did do it multiple times a night. Martin: I was just curious to hear, you know, because I know everyone listening to this is going to be trying to The cogs in their brain are going to be whirring. It’s like, well, what if this goes on for six hours? Do I have to just sit there or lie there with my hands on my chest for six hours, you know? But it’s like you said, I think We need to be kind to ourselves and give ourselves flexibility too. Martin: You know, just because we’re lying there practicing this new approach, it doesn’t mean that suddenly all this stuff’s going to disappear and we’re going to fall asleep. Um, but we always have the opportunity to do something else instead, whether that’s reading in bed, getting out of bed to watch TV, just doing anything. Martin: Um, not again, I think it’s important to emphasize, maybe not with the goal of Getting rid of these thoughts and feelings or making sleep happen, but with the goal of just getting in practice with Experiencing wakefulness and all the thoughts and feelings that might be showing up with a little bit less resistance Yeah, you know with a little bit less struggle And how you do that probably matters less, um, than, than the fact that you’re just staying on track and your goal is to just practice experiencing wakefulness with less struggle, rather than getting pulled back into the struggle. Kreuza: In the beginning, the thoughts were constant. Kreuza: And so if I wasn’t, um, putting my hand on my chest and doing the techniques, then I was visualizing that window open up and just the thoughts would just float, float, uh, away. Um, so I would kind of, I was utilizing both of these techniques. I kind of just intuitively felt what I needed at the time. Um, so I think you’ll know like what’s going to work for you in the moment. Kreuza: Like if I was, if I felt like I needed to, if I’m anxiety was really high, my heart’s racing, then I would just focus on my chest and I would put my hand there and do the first technique. If I’m sitting up in bed or if I’m watching TV, but the thoughts are still coming, then I would do the, the other technique. Kreuza: Um, and I would do the other technique, like with the window opening up and everything. If I’m walking outside, because obviously I can’t walk around, you know, uh, holding, yeah. So I would just do that as I’m, as I was walking, and that was very therapeutic for me. Taking hikes and just visualizing these thoughts, um, like, you know, uh, uh, flowing out of me. Kreuza: That was actually very therapeutic, and I did that a lot. I actually remember doing that. Well, I was shopping. Well, I was just walking, walking around. Um, just constantly. I mean, in the beginning I was doing it all the time. So, so yeah, and it retrained my brain to not feel so threatened by these thoughts because now that I have this technique. Kreuza: I’m not getting emotionally, um, these intense emotions by trying to suppress them or fight with them. No, they’re just coming and going. Martin: When we’re engaged in that struggle trying to fight or avoid all these thoughts and feelings, it’s kind of like we’re, we’re shrinking that available space down for them, right? Martin: In the hope that they won’t be able to show up. Um, but then what happens is they show up and there’s only a tiny, teeny, teeny space for them so they’re more likely to get stuck and then they’re trapped. And then they’re there, um, or as if we practice accepting their presence, we kind of open up and make space for them. Martin: They’ve got more space to kind of move around in. Maybe then they’re less likely to get stuck, more likely to come and go because we’re more willing. To experience them, um, rather than closing everything down, trying to get rid of them or prevent them from turning up in the first place. Kreuza: Yeah, yeah, I think that by doing these, it kind of signals to your body that, oh, the fact that you’re accepting it, it’s maybe it’s not that much of a threat. Martin: Yeah. And, and also I think that then, then the mind learns that you are listening to it. So maybe it doesn’t have to keep saying the same thing over and over again. And because you’re listening it, maybe it doesn’t have to yell quite so loud. Um, but again, it’s something that the brain tends not to twig onto or understand that when we first start practicing this approach, it tends to be, we have to repeatedly. Martin: Acknowledge repeatedly, make space for this stuff to exist repeatedly, allow it to come and go as it chooses before the mind sort of figures out that, oh, maybe there’s not really much behind these thoughts, behind these ideas that I’m coming up with. Maybe we can kind of tone them back a little bit. Um, I’m curious to know when you started practicing this way of responding during the night. Martin: When did you kind of notice that it was making a difference, that it was maybe a more workable approach compared to whatever you’d tried in the past? Kreuza: I would say it took about a month and a half, um, for me to start feeling like this is working. Um, Yeah, I would say that around a month and a half, uh, with setbacks, but yeah. Martin: Yeah, definitely with setbacks. Martin: Um, what was the, what was the difference? Like, was there something that happened, you know, after about a month and a half? Was there like an aha moment or was it just this case of like gradual, Kreuza: gradual change? No aha moment. I, I never had anything like that. It was just a gradual change where I could. See that I was retraining myself. Kreuza: Like I could actually see that that was what was going on. It wasn’t anything overnight. Like I said, it was, it was. a progression, you know, so like, so I would, yeah, like I, I was just noticing that my, when I would do a technique, I wouldn’t get as, as intense emotions and anxiety anymore. So I’m like, okay, this seems to be working. Kreuza: I kept doing it. So it was, yeah, it was, um, every day, maybe a little better than it would get a little worse and it would get better. So it was, it wasn’t a linear progression. It was like weeks and weeks of practicing this that I could see it was causing it, making a difference. Martin: Yeah, and I think that’s really important to emphasize that this isn’t really like a kind of quick fix, you know, it’s not like an immediate change. Martin: It’s, it’s a skill going back to what we were talking about before and skills take time to learn and to develop and everyone makes progress on their own timeline as well. Kreuza: I want to mention it was a month and a half for me to start feeling some difference, not for me to be fine. It was, it was when I started to feel better and then took a little longer for me to actually start feeling and seeing myself as, okay, I’m actually okay now. Martin: To, to kind of expand on that a little bit. Um, how long would you say it took you? from this, from the start of practicing this new approach to getting to a point where you felt that you were better able to Live your life independently of sleep and independently of whatever thoughts and feelings your mind might choose to generate when you felt like the struggle was kind of in the rearview mirror. Kreuza: I remember very well it was September because it was when I came back to the States. So I would say about three months later. Um. Yeah, it was and actually if I maybe this is a silly thing to mention But when I moved back to the States and I was living with my brother He has a little dog that I was taking care of. Kreuza: I was staying with him a little bit and she’s You know, very sensitive to noise so when she’d sleep on the couch with me and when she’d hear something she’d bark So it kind of made me feel like oh I don’t have to be so alert now because she’s here and if she hears something that she’ll wake me up So that all in fact having her there in conjunction with the techniques that I was already doing I felt like that’s what finally made me feel Um, better like a hundred. Kreuza: Oh, not on maybe like 90 percent better worse where I was not thinking about sleep so much. It wasn’t interfering with my daily life. Um, it wasn’t, I wasn’t taking sleep into account when I would make plans or anything like that. And so, yeah, that I stay that month with the dog on top of the, the, yeah, the, the techniques. Kreuza: Then I felt like, okay, now I’m fine, now I’m fine. Um, the thoughts still creep up even now, um, but I just know how to handle them now. And so it hasn’t spiraled like it did the first time, which when I didn’t know how to handle it. Martin: If we were just to compare what an average night was like before, um, before you started implementing an approach more aligned with kind of acceptance and less resistance, um, To what an average night might be like for you now. Martin: What was an average night like for you back then? Kreuza: Oh average, it was very bad. Um, it I I didn’t feel like I was getting any sleep. And in fact, I felt hyper Aroused at night. I felt like I was more awake at night. I really don’t think I I don’t I mean for a few months I don’t think I was getting I’m sure I was getting some micro sleep and in the daytime In fact is when I was getting sleepy The daytime was hard because if, like, if I was watching TV and kind of distracted my body would sort of, you know, want to, you know, I would, I would, I would kind of fall asleep while watching TV and then I would jerk myself awake within, after a few seconds. Kreuza: But at night time, I was really, I don’t, I mean. Seriously, maybe an hour if I was lucky, but very little and in fact, um, because it was so bad my My parents thought well, she needs at least a little bit of rest so they tried to give me like a sleeping pill just like once or twice and Well that actually didn’t work at all. Kreuza: I took Sleeping, I took a sleeping pill twice, I remember, and both times I was awake all night. And so, that actually kind of scared me more because I realized that I had, I didn’t have that to fall back on. Other people said that they, it would help them at least, the sleeping pills or, you know, the anti anxiety medications. Kreuza: That didn’t work for me at all. No difference, none whatsoever. So I knew that that wasn’t going to work for me at all. That wasn’t an option for me. Martin: So fast forwarding now to kind of today, what’s an average night like for you now? Kreuza: You know, it varies. Some nights I sleep great, other nights I struggle a little more. Kreuza: I mean, but it depends also on just, What’s going on in my life? Uh, how much work do I have the next day? You know, I’m thinking about, I’m make, I’m actually moving. I’m gonna be moving in a week, so, uh, just so many. Yeah, I’m actually moving to the West Coast. I’m, I’ll be closer to you and Daniel . Kreuza: Um, so yeah, a lot of changes are occurring and actually happy changes. I’m, I’m quite glad. So there’s so much excitement going on. So, you know, sometimes I’ll be, I’ll be up for, I’ll get less sleep, sometimes more sleep, anywhere between five hours to seven hours, you know, that’s, that’s the range, but it’s just not something that I’m. Kreuza: It’s not something that I’m worrying about and it certainly isn’t impacting my life or my plans or my goals in any way. Even when I do get those scary thoughts, which sometimes do come up, especially like now that I’m kind of reminded of and I’m thinking about it, but, um, but yeah, um, I know how to, I feel calmer knowing that I have a technique that I know that works. Martin: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think it’s important to emphasize that there’s still going to be some difficult nights from time to time. Um, sometimes there’ll be an obvious cause, sometimes there won’t be, and there’s going to always be difficult thoughts and feelings from time to time because that just comes with being a human being. Martin: The difference now is, you know, the way you’re responding to it, the way you’re responding to difficult nights, the way you’re responding to difficult thoughts and feelings. Um, you’re able to respond in a different way. a way that keeps you away from getting tangled up in that struggle again, um, that helps. Martin: That really, it just reduces the power and the influence that all of this stuff has over your life, right? So, it, it, it’s less likely to kind of hook you and kind of pull you away from the life you want to live and tangle you up in the struggle. It’s a little bit more like, um, you know, hot butter off a Teflon pan. Martin: It’s still there. from time to time, but it kind of slides off rather than, you know, an egg just kind of getting stuck on a cast iron pan that hasn’t been seasoned and it just kind of gets stuck there and gets hotter and hotter and gets smoky and burns more and more and more. And before you know it, the whole house is burned down. Martin: Um, and I think that’s the difference, right? It’s just the risk, the way you respond changes and as a result, the influence that these things have. Changes as well and it becomes less powerful and less influential. Kreuza: It’s a great analogy. I like that one. Yeah And you know, I also just want to say that I was so convinced And maybe you remember when I first emailed you how much distress I was in. Kreuza: I was completely convinced that I, there was no, that I wasn’t going to get better. Um, there was no way that I was going to get to this point that I’m in now. So, for anybody who’s watching this and they’re thinking the same thing, I just want to say that my, I was so bad, uh, so, um, anxious and so scared. Kreuza: And so completely convinced that I wasn’t going to get better. So if I can manage to improve, I just feel like everybody can, um, just because of how bad my situation was. And also just the fact that I was so bad that, that even like pills didn’t Didn’t do anything for me. I mean, I would take them and I would feel like I, I took nothing because I’d be still up all night with the same amount of anxiety. Kreuza: And, and so like, just to, just to give an idea of, of how anxious I I was and how hopeless I was. Um, so yeah. Um, don’t let that prevent you from trying. ’cause many times I actually did think that what’s the point of me even doing this techniques, that’s not gonna work for me. Um, especially because I wasn’t hearing success stories with somniphobia, just insomnia and, and, and somniphobia and insomnia are two very different, um, they feel like different experiences actually. Kreuza: So, yeah, um, if something that someone’s experiencing, definitely, yes, it does work. Yes. Just have to stick to it and be diligent. Martin: You might have already answered my, my last question here that I’m about to ask you, but I’m going to ask you again just in case you have anything else to add, um, because it’s also a question I like to ask at the end of every episode. Martin: Um, and it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening, or maybe even someone that’s struggling with somniphobia, as we’ve been focusing on, uh, quite a lot of our time on this, on this episode, is listening, and they feel, you know, that they’ve tried everything. They’re beyond help, that they’ll just never be able to stop struggling with this. Martin: Uh, what would you say to them? Kreuza: First of all, I know exactly what you’re going through. And, uh, just be diligent. Um, know that this putting in the effort now is definitely going to pay off. Um, don’t look at how long it’s taking, just do the work. Just do the work, keep at it. And, and Be, be sure to be assured that it’s, it’s eventually going to work. Kreuza: Um, but then your main focus should just be on doing the work and that’s it. Um, yeah, and I just encourage people to be diligent and, um, and patient with themselves and, and treat themselves with the same compassion that they would treat their child or someone that they love. Well, Martin: I think that’s a great note to end on. Martin: So thank you again for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast Krause. Kreuza: Thank you very much. Thank you. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Rachel’s struggle with insomnia started in grad school. She tried everything from sleep aids to strict bedtime rules and routines to improve her sleep, but nothing worked. The harder she tried to fix her sleep and get rid of sleep-related anxiety, the more difficult things became. The turning point came when Rachel changed her approach. She stopped focusing on trying to create the perfect conditions for sleep and she stopped trying to control her thoughts and feelings. She started being kinder to herself. She practiced making space for difficult thoughts and feelings and she practiced building skill in bringing herself back to the present moment and being more aware of the present whenever her mind started to time travel. Rachel’s story is a powerful example of how changing our approach to sleep and our response to insomnia can lead not only to significant improvements in our sleep, but also our overall quality of life. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay. Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time to come onto the podcast. Rachel: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Martin. Martin: It’s great to have you on. Let’s just start right at the beginning without any further ado. Um, can you tell us a little bit about when your sleep problems first began and if there are any clues as to what may have caused those initial issues with sleep. Rachel: Yeah, um, well, my first like where my mind first goes is. To my back to my first year of grad school, um, where like, at least one night a week, I felt it felt like I wasn’t sleeping at all. Um, and I would get really anxious about sleep, but I think that that was partly like being in grad school and feeling stressed about grad school. Rachel: Um, and also, like, I had a shift shift. That ended late and so like the process of of unwinding and then having to be at work early the next day. Um, and the feeling would be anxiety about sleeping like, yes, there were things in my life that were stressing me out, but I think it was like the anxiety would be I’m anxious that I won’t be able to sleep. Rachel: Um, and that that was well, that was long before. Before I reached out to you. But that, I think, is like the, I’m sure the sleep difficulties go back further than that, but that was like the first moment I can sort of remember. Martin: Yeah, and roughly how long ago was that when you, uh, that kind of grad school period of your life? Rachel: That was almost ten years ago. Martin: And so what was your sleep like at that time? You mentioned there was a lot of anxiety about, is sleep going to happen? What’s sleep going to be like? What’s that going to mean if I have difficult nights or all those kind of thoughts? I think lots of people listening to this are going to identify with. Martin: Um, how did that reflect in your sleep? Was it difficulty just falling asleep or was it just really interrupted sleep? What was there? Was there kind of like an average night? What was it like? Yeah, Rachel: um, I, I think it was mostly getting to sleep, like, it would be from the very, like, I would feel really hopeful about the night, about like whatever, new homeopathic thing I had taken on or tried and then, like, thank you. Rachel: Just the torture of being in bed and not falling asleep. And then periodically it would be like I would wake up in the middle of the night and like feel sleepy and groggy and then like not be able to get back to sleep. Hmm. Martin: Yeah. And, and how about your days? Were you finding the, all this difficult stuff that you were experiencing at night? Martin: Was, were you finding the days more difficult too? Rachel: Oh, yeah. I, I mean. I’m sure we’ll get into it like around the time I reached out to you, but I can just like feel in my eyes, like, cause I would take, a sleep aid of some kind, either like something prescribed or something natural and like, I wouldn’t have slept through that. Rachel: So then I felt groggy and just like almost that the ways your eyes can feel so tired that they hurt. Um, yeah, and just like down. Martin: Yeah, absolutely. And so you mentioned the medication, whether it was homeopathic or over the counter or anything like that. Um, will you find in the They were proving to be helpful at night time, but then maybe giving you those some side effects during the day, or were you finding that they probably weren’t even really helping at night and they were giving you the side effects? Martin: Like, what was that experience like? Rachel: Yeah. Well, I remember in grad school, I like tried all these like natural things like magnesium, like whatever that calm stuff is. Um. And like, sleepy time tea, and, uh, lavender on my feet, um, or like Tylenol PM, um, and then around the time I reached out to you, then I was trying, like, Ativan, Rachel: uh, Trazodone, marijuana, um, and what I found was that especially Around the time I reached out to you, those things would work the first time I used them, and I’d be like, great, I found a nice thing to use as needed. But then the second time I used them, my anxiety would keep me up through them. So It would be either like I had taken it and it worked, and then I was feeling groggy the next day, but then what really what it became was I would take it and my anxiety would keep me up through it, and then I would be like, have that hangover from whatever I had taken, plus not having slept. Martin: Yeah, I think a lot of people listening to this are gonna really identify with that, um, that kind of process of trying different things. Um, and. Sometimes they, they work like straight away, you can find the, Oh, this is it. I found it. I found it. Everything is now fixed. I’m back on track. Um, and then a difficult night shows up, whether it’s the next night or in a few weeks or a few months, and then it. Martin: It brings back all of those kind of anxieties show up again, right? Because it’s now it’s like, ah, now this doesn’t work. So something must be wrong. There must be something unique, uniquely broken or got something’s gone wayward here. I’m a unique case because none of this stuff is working. Now I have to try this new search and then it, the cycle just kind of repeats and repeats, right? Martin: It was, it sounds like that was, that was your experience. Rachel: Oh, yeah, it really was. And my friends, like, anyone, any roommates I’ve had, like, know that, like, I was so rigid about my bedtime. Like, we’d be in the middle of a conversation and I would, like, just abruptly leave because it’s like, well, I have to, like, start getting ready to bed in order to, like, attempt to control for this night. Rachel: Um, so yeah, it was just, like, lots of, like, stress and anxiety about, like, Wanting to control my sleep. Martin: Yeah, and like, like I always try and say, it’s completely understandable why we go that route. Because when, when something’s broken or when we identify a problem, we want to fix it. Right? And so many of the problems or obstacles in our lives. Martin: So if we want a new career, then we might retrain and that takes a lot of effort, but we go through it and then we have that opportunity. Right? But sleep is one of these sleep and what we think and feel. I think of these outliers, the stuff that happens. Inside us, like under our skin, inside our bodies that we can’t directly or permanently control. Martin: Um, and there, there are some things that we can do that probably can be helpful temporarily. Like if we drink, I don’t know, like a bottle of vodka, for example, before we go to bed, yeah, we’re going to probably be unconscious after that. Um, the, the argument is, is that sleep or is it something else? Martin: But that’s, that’s probably a discussion for, for another day. Um, what happens is all of these things are temporary, right? They just they’re not really. Dealing with the root cause of the issue, so when it comes back, when all this stuff that we can’t directly control comes back, then we’re, we’re just repeating that process. Martin: It’s almost like being stuck in the quicksand that we’re just struggling and struggling and struggling and just, maybe, maybe we’re either not moving or we’re just slowly sinking. We can feel really stuck and that’s when it can be a good opportunity to explore a new option or a new approach. Rachel: Yes. No, that definitely resonates. Martin: And I think, I think something that you touched upon as well, um, which is really, really common when we’re trying to fix, fix this problem is, Implementing those kind of rules and rituals around sleep in an attempt to control it, or to protect it, or to create the most perfect conditions possible for sleep to happen, is, they can come with some costs, right, in terms of not Like you said that you might be hanging out with friends, socializing with friends, but then, you’re checking the time. Martin: Oh, I need to be back. I need to be back to prepare for sleep, make sure that all the conditions are good. So we end up getting pulled away from the life we want to live, which in itself can make things more difficult. And then we’re doing that in the pursuit of something that we can’t really directly or permanently control. Martin: And the more we try, the more we can struggle. So then we’ve got the struggle, the difficulty with sleep, the struggle, the difficulty with anxiety, and we’ve also got the struggle and difficulty that comes with doing less of the stuff that matters to us. And that’s where it can just become so, so, so difficult. Rachel: Yes. This is sort of tangentially related, but I was just remembering, um, from like this time in grad school up until us working together. So it was like five to seven years. Every night I would listen to this podcast called Sleep by Mary Phelan. It was like a seven to ten minute sleep podcast, but I would have to start it over like four to seven times. Rachel: Like compulsively, um, not like just because I would get so anxious that like to make things just right to be able to fall asleep. Martin: Yeah, and it’s, I mean, you’ve been in this experience yourself, so it’d be interesting to hear your thoughts on this. But I think what we can have This source of anxiety, right? Martin: So let’s say sleep. So I’m, I’m naturally worried about, am I going to sleep tonight? Is tonight going to be really difficult? And that generates some anxiety, which is completely normal, completely natural. And sometimes I think what can happen is we can, because that anxiety doesn’t feel good, because we recognize it, we, we see it as an obstacle, as a barrier. Martin: Whenever that anxiety is there, I’m not going to be able to sleep. So I have to get rid of the anxiety. Then we can develop anxiety about anxiety. So now we’re not just dealing with anxiety about sleep, but we’re also dealing with anxiety about anxiety itself. Was, was that, does that kind of relate to your own experience? Rachel: Oh yes. Yeah. Like, I mean, this feels related, but Again, when I reached out to you, I had entered a new relationship and my poor sleep was, in my mind at the time, only when I was sharing a bed. But then what was happening was, it wasn’t just when I was sharing a bed, it was like bleeding into like, More and more nights of the week, but like the anxiety, like I, especially in on the nights or the days that I knew I’d be sharing a bed with my partner, I would just start, like, that would, sleeping would be on my mind from the time I woke up, like, of like, well, what will later look like? Rachel: What can I do to make later right? Like, just already feeling Anticipating the night time and like attempting, working really hard to be present, not thinking about my anxiety. Martin: Yeah. And how successful do you, now you’re able to look back, how successful do you feel that you were on being able to not think about certain things or not experience certain thoughts and feelings? Rachel: Uh, not successful! Martin: It’s really difficult, isn’t it? And I think there are some things we can do, maybe like going back to what we were talking about a little bit earlier, that can help temporarily. Maybe we can distract ourselves and that might work. Maybe for a few minutes or maybe a little bit longer. Martin: But when it comes to thoughts and feelings, that’s what the brain does, right? There would be no brain without thoughts and feelings. That’s what the brain does. It’s just generating them all the time. And if we try to fight that or try to avoid it, Um, it takes, it takes a lot of effort, I think, first and foremost, takes a lot of mental energy, which can in itself be exhausting and create so much fatigue and what often happens because our brain’s number one job is to look out for us when it’s generating difficult thoughts and feelings. Martin: It’s because it’s trying to tell us something and when we try and fight or avoid that. Then the brain can get really concerned that it’s giving us these really important messages. But instead of listening, we’re trying to get rid of them. Then the brain can panic a little bit, freak out, and generate even more intense thoughts and feelings. Martin: And then we’re trying to push back again, and then it’s freaking out more and generating really intense thoughts and feelings to try and get us to listen. And it can just, we just get caught in that battle, right? Bit of China. Trying to control our minds or trying to control our thoughts and feelings and over the long term, it just again, where are we? Martin: We’re back in that quicksand. Rachel: Right. Rachel: I think for so long I had existed with like these very rigid sleep preparation, like rituals. And, and if I didn’t get to do that, then I wasn’t going to be able to fall asleep in my mind. Rachel: And I think I like started to loosen the grip on that of like, okay, if I don’t have like the exact. 45 to 60 minutes I want. That doesn’t mean I won’t fall asleep. It just means I don’t have that time right now. Martin: Yeah, it’s, it’s really interesting with those rules and rituals. We can implement the really rigid rules and regulations that we can implement because we We can be struggling, right, with sleep, and so we implement all these rituals or rules to protect sleep, to create the most perfect conditions possible for sleep, and yet we still find ourselves struggling, so I think there’s this little voice in the back of our minds that Might every now and then be saying to us is, is this really helpful? Martin: Is this really proving to be effective and useful? But at the same time, there’s probably another little voice that’s saying, well, yeah, we’re still really struggling. But what if we didn’t have these rules and regulations? Then things might be even more difficult. Um, how do you, how do you reconcile those two voices and take that leap into Moving away from all that pressure you might be putting on yourself with these strict rules and regulations, all the ways they might be pulling you away from the kind of life you want to live, and take that leap into Moving away from them being a little bit more flexible, living life a little bit more independently of sleep. Martin: Is it just a case of just going for it? Is it a case of thinking of it as an experiment? Like, how do you make that leap almost into the unknown, which can be quite scary? Rachel: Yeah, well, I, I, it was so helpful to have you as a coach and resource like because I think You know, I had tried consuming, like, my own self education and I was just too anxious to take it in because of exactly what you’re saying of like, intellectually, I understand that this works. Rachel: But it doesn’t make sense to me. And what if it’s wrong? Like, just like giving up my way of doing things that clearly hadn’t been working, but I just felt really scared. And so I think it felt so helpful, like, as I was going along, to be able to take my worries to you and, like, help debunk them. Rachel: Or like take the, what, because if you’re struggling with insomnia, like all these small things feel like, they start to become so big of like, what if I have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night? Like, should I just ignore that? Or should I, like, should I push through and just try and fall back to sleep? Rachel: Or should I get up? Like, that, like, question that feels so small, as it pertains to, like, sleeping, would, like, cause me so much anxiety and being able to, like, take that to you and Have you be like, no, like just, it’s okay, like, like the soothing presence really helped me, I think, like release the rules I had or like the myths I had about sleep. Martin: I think an important point you made there or a useful point that people will probably identify with is We can, we can have this idea in place that there’s maybe what I’m doing isn’t proven to be workable or effective or helpful. We might discover that there’s a different way to do this stuff. Martin: And when we read about it, for example, it can sound pretty straightforward. Let’s say, for example, let’s try going to bed later at night instead of earlier at night. Which. Can sound a little bit confusing, a little bit scary, but at the same time when it’s explained, it can also sound quite logical because the later we stay up at night, the more sleep drive we can build. Martin: So the more likely, the better conditions are for sleep to happen. But I think it’s another thing to Take that and convert into action because it can be quite scary to take on this whole new approach. Um, because we might deal with thoughts like, well, what if this doesn’t work? Um, what if it makes things more difficult? Martin: What if this is the last option available to me? It doesn’t work. And then I’ve got nothing else left to try. The brain can come up with all these different scary thoughts and feelings. So having that support, whether it’s from a coach or maybe a partner or a friend, um, can be, can be so helpful because this is really difficult and it’s hard to do difficult things alone as an individual. Rachel: It really is. Yeah, I, like, I couldn’t get over just how. Much peace of mind it gave me to be able to get your feedback, to send you my questions, like, yeah, like, I think having some kind of buddy to do this hard thing with, I mean, for me, felt really essential because, like, the, because, I had bought books or was, like, starting to, like, like, look for things on the internet, but, yeah, the anxiety was too high just by myself. Martin: Do you feel that you maybe got a little bit more comfortable with the idea of night time wakefulness either happening or being a possibility? Martin: So instead of all your actions being centered around trying to avoid nighttime wakefulness or trying to get rid of it when it showed up, you started to feel a little bit more comfortable with the appearance of wakefulness or the possibility that it could exist. And that in turn maybe in itself created better conditions for sleep to happen. Rachel: Definitely. Yeah. Like I think I, I remember, um, I remember it was falling asleep. If there was any interruption in my insomnia days to my falling asleep, I thought I was Screwed for the night of like, oh, I was like being low to sleep. I was just about to fall asleep. And then something startled me awake or I started myself awake. Rachel: Um, and then felt like the night was lost. And then like, in the middle of the night feeling like if I woke up, that was a symbol of, something bad having happened in terms of like, in terms of sleep. Um, but I think in like, with the education you provided of like that, those are normal things. Like those happen to people that’s, that is within normal limits that does not preclude you from sleep. Martin: Something a little bit related to what you just said, um, about, something might wake you, suddenly wake you up, or you might jerk awake, um, and then you feel like the night was lost, um, was related to nighttime noise, when we started working together, you mentioned that, There was maybe this kind of fixation, maybe bordering on an obsession with trying to eliminate all potential noises that might happen through the night, and if any noises did show up, that was it, the night was a disaster. Martin: How, how, how did you end up dealing with that issue? Was it a similar kind of process or did that, was there a kind of different approach there? Rachel: Yeah, that’s so interesting, because, yeah, I just imagine like any roommate I’ve ever had listening to this and being like, yeah, she’s like, such a stickler about noise and like all these things, but like, it’s become so much less of an issue. Rachel: I think, um, I think in like both like in the understanding I was developing about how sleep worked, I think I developed like was also developing new ways of focusing my attention and like I’ll still do this as a way to relax of like going in between like an unpleasant stimuli and a more neutral stimuli. Rachel: So like if there’s noise and it’s Disruptive or unpleasant like I’ll alternate between that and like maybe like the sensation of my hands like it just it doesn’t feel as much of an emergency, like maybe it’s still something I would prefer wasn’t there is unpleasant, but it doesn’t feel like it’s going to ruin my night. Martin: That’s that’s really interesting. It sounds. It sounds a little bit like. You found a way to experience a noise, the appearance of a noise, maybe with a little bit less resistance, so you’re exposing yourself to maybe, Being more of an observer of that noise for a little while and bringing your attention back into your body, then observing the noise for a little bit and bringing your attention back to your body compared to all those thoughts and feelings are turning up about the noise and then you’re trying to suppress those thoughts and feelings, getting really mad about the fact there’s noise there and engaging in that battle in the middle of the night with all of this stuff that you can’t directly control. Rachel: Exactly. Yeah, like, oh, I remember just feeling so much resentment and like, like quicksand, that quicksand feeling whenever there was noise out of my control. And of course, not that that doesn’t still sometimes come up, but it’s just. It’s just not what takes up as much of attention, or as much of my attention. Martin: Yeah, I think that’s the key word, is how much of your attention it can consume. Because I’m trying to think of an analogy here. It would probably be something like, let’s say you’re lying on the beach, um, you’re listening to the waves and the birds and all that good stuff and then this family next to you pitches up a tent and they’ve got a Boombox, and then they start putting on the worst music imaginable. Martin: Um, then what’s going to naturally happen is all your attention is going to gravitate towards that really annoying, horrendous music and how you wish you couldn’t hear it, how you wish it would just go away. Um, And when, when that is the focus of our attention, so now we’re just intently listening to this music, even though we hate it, we miss out on everything else, right? Martin: Now we can no longer hear the, hear the, hear the birds. We can no longer hear the ocean. We’re no longer aware of the fact that it’s a beautiful day, that the sun is beating down on our bodies, that we’ve got a nice cold drink in our hands. 100 percent of our attention is this music. is really annoying. Martin: And I think it’s a process, right? It’s a process of bringing our attention back. Like you just touched upon when you heard noises at night, you’d listen to it, accept its presence, even though you wish it wasn’t there and refocus your attention. And then you’d probably find that your mind drifted back to that noise again, or your attention will go back to the noise and you would just gently bring it back. Martin: And it is a process because the mind is always going to want to focus on Obstacles, discomfort, um, problems, and it’s just a case of when that’s not helpful and that’s not useful, just refocusing our attention. Um, how was that for an analogy? I just made it from the top of my head. Do you feel like that’s what it’s like? Rachel: A hundred percent. Yeah. Like, I often have that thought of like, maybe I’m sitting next to a trash can and the sight of it is unpleasant, but if I just, like, shift my posture to look the other way, it’s like there’s a beautiful tree. It’s like, it’s not that it’s not there, it’s just that, like, I can, I can know it’s there and, like, look elsewhere. Martin: Yeah, exactly. So that’s a really important point too, because we’re not trying to trick ourselves that this stuff isn’t here because it is here and it does exist, but it’s just a case of kind of opening ourselves up to everything else that’s present other than that thing, other than the trash can, other than the boom box, other than all that unpleasant disruptive noise. Martin: And when something becomes less of a focus of our attention, obviously it consumes less of our attention, um, and it can feel like it’s less of a problem, because it’s not consuming 100 percent of our attention anymore, so therefore it doesn’t feel like it’s 100 percent of the problem. Rachel: Exactly, yeah, and it’s even, it’s just helped, because I even just like last week had One night where I didn’t sleep so well because I have a new roommate and I’m just like adjusting to her rhythms and I, I think it, I like was able to offer some soothing of like, your attention is here because this is new. Rachel: Like, like this isn’t necessarily like a permanent state. Martin: I think that’s a, that’s a really big insight too because whenever there is anything new. Um, the mind is going to be more aware of it, maybe focus on it a little bit more, monitor it a little bit more. And I think that also connects into these, these changes that we can make to. move away from really rigid rules and rituals and stuff like that when we do make a change, it’s going to be natural that at first the mind is going to be more focused on that, more aware of it, monitoring for the outcome, is this change instead of going to bed, for example, at nine o’clock at night and going to bed at midnight, the brain’s going to be more alert, right? Martin: Is this helping? Is this going to do the trick? Um, what’s what’s going on here? Should we really do this? No, let’s go back. Let’s go to bed early. Let’s go to bed now. No, let’s go bed later. That’s all natural and normal, right? And that’s when we can also, maybe we’re more likely to get. Pulled back into the struggle again, trying to either get rid of those thoughts or going back to old behaviors that we know from experience aren’t workable, aren’t helpful, aren’t effective. Martin: Um, and so I think it’s just something to be mindful of that anytime we do make a change or experience something new, there’s going to be more attention put on that. Right. And I think maybe what can be helpful is Trying to approach that from the mindset of being like a curious observer, like maybe being like a little bit of this kind of crazy scientist while I’m trying this new thing, or this new thing is showing up. Martin: Let’s just see how that pans out. So instead of just having that initial resistance to it, because we wish it wasn’t there or it’s difficult, maybe we can become more of an observer of it. Um, and when we become more of an observer, I think that we naturally become a little bit less inclined to struggle with it. Martin: To start battling with all that difficult stuff. Rachel: Right. Right. Exactly. Martin: So I think maybe something that’s a little bit related to this, is that when we have that kind of anxiety around sleep, um, It’s not only something that affects the nights, like you touched on earlier, it also affects the days, we find ourselves thinking a lot about sleep. Martin: Maybe that anxiety about sleep shows up during the daytime as well, and we can develop this preoccupation, right? It’s almost like we’re trying to focus on something. Um, but our mind keeps pulling us away and time traveling off into the future, what’s tonight going to bring, or maybe it time travels off into the past, what was last night like, it was really difficult, I feel really bad today, lots of difficult stuff like that, and I think one, another one of your goals was to explore, is there a way of moving away from this preoccupation with sleep so that maybe it consumes less of my attention, um, so I can do more of the stuff that matters to me without it getting in the way? Martin: How do you feel that you were able to move away from that preoccupation with sleep? Rachel: I think a big thing I remember when I was like, my sleep was really bad, right before I reached out to you, or in the midst of, like, our work, is that I could have good days, even when I hadn’t slept. Rachel: And I could have bad days even when I had slept that like feeling like there was so much anxiety like if I don’t sleep, then I’m gonna have a bad day. And it’s like, well, maybe, um, but also I’ve had plenty of bad days when I have slept and like have had low energy when I’ve slept it like you know it’s just like your energy is, it’s not so much something I think I’ve seen for myself that it’s like I can control. Rachel: That those, like, energy, my energy levels will just fluctuate no matter what, and so I think, like, Loosening the grip of, like, uh, if I don’t sleep tonight, tomorrow will be, like, I’ll be so tired, or it’ll be a bad day. Like, just being able to reality test that a little bit, and, like, I, uh, yeah, like, helping, with the idea that, like, um, like, a bad night’s sleep didn’t mean, like, That everything had gone to hell, and if I did have a bad night of sleep, like I would get myself a nice coffee in the morning just like to cheer myself up. Um, I think all of that helped to, to not feel like, like sleep was. Directing the outcome of my day. Martin: Yeah. Absolutely. And so I think that it’s really helpful to emphasize that really difficult nights can definitely make the days a lot more difficult, right? Martin: We probably would never have worked together if there was no kind of consequence to how you felt during the day. And at the same time, um, there’s also the fact remains that even after a great night of sleep, we can still have. difficult days. So there’s a relationship there for sure, but a difficult night doesn’t have to guarantee that every second of the following day is going to be truly awful. Martin: Um, and I think going back to what you were saying earlier about when you were refocusing your attention. And why I think that can be so helpful is when our days are really difficult and the mind does start to think and become preoccupied with, the burning eyes, the fatigue, the difficulty concentrating, it consumes all of our attention and it becomes Even more difficult for us to notice anything else that might be going on or to recall anything else that might have happened to us. Martin: Um, that was maybe a little bit more positive or a little bit more pleasant. So we, by refocusing our attention also during the day. It can also be helpful too, because it can just help us notice that even when things are really difficult, there maybe are a couple of glimpses of better stuff that are happening during the day. Martin: And often when we’re really struggling, we can miss that stuff. And it can really make it feel as though every second of every day is just a living nightmare. Um, and it can be really difficult. But, and at the same time, there might be Those little glimpses of good stuff that might go, get missed if we’re not engaged in that process of refocusing our attention to. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like that, like, a conversation with a close friend could like, and going to like my favorite yoga class, like all those things can, are still beautiful things that I like got to experience. In that day. Martin: Yeah. And I think that’s somewhere where we can sometimes also get pulled back into that quicksand again, right? Martin: Is when we’ve, we just feel truly awful. Especially when we first get out of bed in the morning, which is often the most difficult part of the day. Um, and that can just lead us to withdrawing from all of that stuff. Like stuff that would be important to us. Stuff that keeps us moving toward the kind of life we want to live. Martin: So we do less of that stuff, which in itself, um, might make the day more difficult because we’re doing less of what matters to us. And it gives us less opportunity to refocus our attention. Because when we’re doing less, what’s the mind gonna do? The mind is a little bit more idle. So it’s just gonna internalize and just start time traveling again. Martin: It’s going to start coming up with all those difficult thought, those difficult thoughts, those difficult stories, and it’s going to emphasize all that difficult stuff because it has nothing else to focus on. Rachel: Right, right. Martin: So something that you talked about I think when we, right at the start of this conversation was When we identify kind of anxiety as this kind of barrier to sleep, I need to get rid of anxiety. Martin: Otherwise, sleep just isn’t going to happen. And I think A really big insight that you uncovered when we were working together was you found that there were nights when anxiety showed up and you were feeling really unconfident, you just did not have any confidence that sleep would happen. Martin: There was the anxiety was present and then you still ended up actually having. A good night or a decent night of sleep. Yeah. What did you learn from that experience and how do you feel that might have helped you? Rachel: Oh, yeah, I, that’s so interesting. Like, yeah, because I think it comes, it goes back to, for me, like, Formally having the feeling that the conditions had to be perfect to sleep. And so if I had anxiety then, That was like then the state I was going to be in, um, and, uh, yeah, I think, I think it was a lot of the education about sleep of like that, that the, the one thing, but especially if you’ve built up, um, your, your sleepiness, like if you’ve been awake throughout the day, that the, uh, That the only thing in between you and sleep was fear, like, anxiety. Rachel: And I think, knowing that, I could sometimes, like, recount that to myself. And that would help me relax. Or, like, partly knowing that a bad night of sleep, especially with these, like, behavioral measures in place. wasn’t gonna then ruin me for the rest of the week. It would be a bad night. Martin: Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes it can also be helpful when, if we ever have an experience like that, it can maybe sometimes serve as a good reminder that Maybe in an ideal world, we could permanently delete anxiety from our brains before we go to bed. Martin: But if it does show up, it doesn’t have to guarantee that the whole night is written off and it’s going to be absolutely terrible. That it is possible to still sleep when anxiety shows up. And maybe what makes Falling asleep or falling back to sleep more difficult is when we engage in a battle with that anxiety when we try and fight it and we try and push it away. Martin: Maybe it’s that struggle that makes sleep more difficult compared to just the presence of anxiety alone. Do you feel that, do you feel like that was reflective of your own, your own experience? Rachel: Yeah, and I was, I was just having a memory to like, I think in. Time after we, soon after we were done working together, like, because for me, I think as soon as I feel any constriction in my chest as a sign of anxiety, that makes me, that used to be like a symbol of like, oh, no, there’s like a really bad night ahead because like the constriction has entered my chest. Rachel: There’s no making that go away. And I think it’s, it was a lot of, like, what we’re describing of my attention of, like, alternating between that and something more pleasant, that or something more neutral, and, like, being like, that’s there, but, like, yeah, like, refocusing my attention from it. Martin: And I think something else that is useful to just consider or, even better if you can pick it up from your own experience is that thing about sleep confidence. It’s great. It’s a great thing to have, but it’s not needed for sleep to happen. We don’t have to have sleep confidence for sleep to happen. Martin: Just like we don’t. need to have breathing confidence for breathing to happen, it’s, it’s great to have, but it’s, it’s not needed. And it’s another one of those things we can’t really control, and it tends to be quite fluid confidence in anything can come and go. We can feel really confident about something and then maybe we make a mistake or something happens and that confidence can be shot and we start to build it up again just through our own actions. Martin: Um, it can just be another one of those things. That can almost serve as a distraction. I need to, I need to get rid of anxiety. I need to create confidence. All these things we can’t really control. Um, and that can end up distracting us and creating more of a struggle. Sending us back into that quicksand again. Martin: And talking about things that ebb and flow, ups and downs. So when we were working together, I think it was after a couple of months, or maybe six to eight weeks, something like that. Um, you felt you were doing really well. And then all of a sudden, this difficult night showed up. Martin: So you found that because you’re a human being with a human brain, you had all those things. difficult thoughts and feelings turning up, fear, confusion, anxiety felt really powerful. Um, and I think you, you said to me that you felt like you jinx yourself because you’d sent me an email just telling me how well you’d been doing. Martin: And then all of a sudden that difficult night showed up and it’s so. It’s so easy, so tempting to then get pulled back into all of our old unworkable behaviors at that point, right? Because the brain kind of forgets that this is a process, that there’s ups and downs. Um, and it can want us to go back into all the old unworkable actions because they’re more familiar, regardless of whether they’re helpful or not. Martin: Um, how, how did you end up responding to that setback so that you didn’t get pulled back into the quicksand? Hmm. Rachel: Well, I think like, first it’s like getting, I think I remember that exchange and getting your response and feeling like, just confirming what I was like, trying to tell myself in my head of like, this is normal, this happens and like, you being so not anxious about it of like, of course, like that happens sometimes. Rachel: And just like thinking recently, like there was a, a couple months ago, I like had a really, like the, the week was turning into a bad week of sleep because, but like, it felt so much easier to identify the contributions to it. Like, I was really sick and like that was impacting my sleep. And then I think, like, the, the, being sick, that like just like took over the whole week. Rachel: But I, I remember having the thought of like, once I’m. Feeling a little better, I can like get myself back into these routines that are so helpful and that I know work, um. So yeah, just like normalizing that bad nights of sleep happen and also I have like tools so accessible to me that I have seen really work in like normalizing my sleep. Martin: So just briefly, because I know that I’ve already taken off a big chunk of your time today, which I’m really appreciative for. Um, if you were to reflect on, maybe the two or three changes that you made when we were working together that you found most helpful, um, what would you say they were? Rachel: I think the getting out of bed every day at the same time, which really sucked. Um, and, and I don’t necessarily do anymore. Um, and, uh, I think feeling, like, Less anxious about that time before sleep of like, still having routines that help me unwind and like relax, but not feeling so regimented about them and really not taking any sleep aids. Rachel: Um, because I now only see that they make me feel worse. Martin: So we were only working together for a couple of months, and that was about three years ago now. Mm-Hmm. . Um, how long would you say that it took for you to get to a point where, sleep wasn’t something you were just really struggling with? Um, maybe you felt like you’d emerged from the quicksand, um, and you just felt better able to live your life independently of sleep? Rachel: I, I think. By the, well, at least by the end of our six to eight weeks, my sleep had normalized or like, I, I wasn’t having the same insomnia or like sleep related anxiety, um, just like in the time of your program. And then I, like, I maintained the, be like, uh, the, the behavior changes that we’re describing. Rachel: Like. For a long time, um, and I, and I’ll still fall back on them, um, or use them when I’m, like, going through rough bouts of sleep, but actually regaining the, what felt like the ability to sleep happened within six to eight weeks, and I, I guess, like, really reducing my anxiety, I think my anxiety was reduced by the six to eight weeks just knowing I had these tools, and then feeling like, I didn’t have to like use the tools exactly as they had been prescribed. Rachel: Maybe like a year. Martin: Yeah. That’s, yeah, I think I, I, I like to ask that question in more recent episodes because for people listening to this, it can really sound like, which we are, we’re performing miracles here, right? That within a few weeks we can completely eliminate decades of insomnia and permanently delete anxiety and stuff like that, which. Martin: We can’t do. This is a process. Um, it’s all about removing ourselves from the process as much as possible, refocusing our attention, um, not being ruled by insomnia and sleep, being able to live independently of it. And that does take time. Um, and so I think it’s more realistic to think of this in terms of not so much weeks, but maybe more to do with months. Martin: It is a process that doesn’t mean we’re still going to be struggling for months, but it just means there’s going to be more, maybe more difficult setbacks. The brain’s still going to want to try pulling us back into that struggle again. And it’s going to take time to build skill in responding to this stuff in a different, in a different way. Martin: Um, because that’s really what it is, right? Like you touched upon this, these tools are in my back pocket, their skills and all skills take time to learn and develop. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. And I think, like, that feels, that just makes more sense to me and feels more realistic than, like, a pill that is claiming to, like, solve your sleep, that, like, of course this will be, like, a thing you have to, one has to dedicate themselves to. Martin: Yeah. Exactly. Well, Rachel, I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out your day to come on and share your story. I do have one last question for you, um, which I try and ask every guest, and it’s this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, they’re beyond help, that they’ll just never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. Martin: They’ll never be able to get out of that quicksand. What would you say to them? Rachel: Uh, I’m, I know that pain, like, and I can just, like, feel it viscerally, like, in my body, like, hearing that, and it’s just not true, like, of course, like, I don’t know any conditions a person might have, but, like, I, I really thought that I was just doomed and I, and I think, like, one has the ability to sleep. Rachel: So there is hope I would want to share. Martin: That’s great. Well, thanks again, Rachel. I think that’s a reassuring and comforting and positive note to end on. So thank you again for coming on to the podcast. Rachel: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Martin. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Jessica’s journey with insomnia began on a family vacation when she suddenly found it really hard to sleep. When she got home, her sleep recovered — until it was time to travel again. This pattern repeated itself, with sleep getting more difficult each time she traveled until insomnia stuck around even after she returned home. In response, Jessica started to go to bed earlier. She tried supplements and medication. She practiced good sleep hygiene. And yet, night after night, her bedroom remained a battleground. When bedtime approached, Jessica experienced a sense of impending doom and intense anxiety. She would feel a tightness in her chest. She worried how she was going to function during the day and feared making mistakes at work. In this episode, Jessica describes how she practiced a new approach. Instead of fighting insomnia and the difficult thoughts and feelings that would come with it, she started accepting their presence. She started to be kinder to herself. Jessica noticed that it wasn’t being awake or experiencing certain thoughts and feelings that were the real problem — it was her judgment of those things and her ongoing resistance to them that made things so much more difficult. As Jessica shares, her change of approach wasn’t easy. Progress was not immediate or linear. However, with ongoing practice she found that she was able to free herself from an ongoing struggle and reclaim her life from insomnia. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Alright, Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Jessica: Yeah, you’re welcome. Martin: Let’s start right at the beginning. Are you able to pinpoint the initial cause of your struggle with sleep? And how long ago did that all begin? Jessica: It’s been over a year. Uh, maybe like a year and a half. Jessica: And, uh, I have a distinct memory of when it started I, I was traveling and I was away like on a group kind of family vacation and I wasn’t able to sleep at all that night. Uh, it was very anxiety producing. The second night I cause it was like a two night, uh, trip, uh, the second night I was really anxious about sleeping and not being able to sleep. Jessica: And eventually I fell asleep, but it was difficult. When I came back home, there was like another kind of off night, and then I, I was able to sleep okay. I then had another traveling plan maybe like a month later. And during that time I was fine, but then when I traveled, it was the same kind of story, where I wouldn’t be able to sleep, I was really, really anxious and just up all night. Jessica: That happened one more time, I think, because I had multiple… Traveling episode, uh, traveling plans about, about a little less than a month apart and then each time it got worse. And then after that last travel, it, it stuck around even when I came home. Martin: Did you, had you traveled in the past, like before that year or so ago and been able to sleep OK, and then it was… Jessica: Yeah, I was able to travel. No problem. Uh, I had a lot of like life stressors going on, uh, leading up to that initial kind of episode. At the time, if you asked me, I would have been like, yeah, I’m fine. Jessica: Everything is it’s fine and okay. I can look back now and, and see that I probably wasn’t fine. And that the travel was a bit of the tipping point, uh, uh, for me to deal with all of this. stressors that were going on or maybe not deal with all the stressors that were going on. Martin: And so you mentioned that then you came home. Martin: When you came home did you find that sleep disruption was sticking around or did it come and go? Jessica: No, it, it rapidly progressed. What’s interesting is it started in, uh, like an August, so not this past August, August 4th. And And I was on a trip during Thanksgiving break, and that’s when it really stuck around. Jessica: Even, even probably leading up to before Thanksgiving, maybe like in October or November it was. And it, like I was getting anxiety like during the evening hours leading up to going to bed when I was home. And I would just have this kind of feeling of impending doom. It wasn’t, it wasn’t fun at all. Jessica: And I was trying to like white knuckle my way through it. And, uh, and then I went on that trip and then after the trip, it was really bad. What’s interesting is on that trip, I I didn’t tell you this, but I, I found like a recording of one of your podcasts. That you had done and so probably within a few months I there was this understanding that like I could make it better and I could do things to make it better So it’s not like it went on for years and years or something and then I tried to I signed up for like your newsletter or something, and I tried to do some of it just myself. Jessica: Unstructured, and that did not go so well. I really needed your structured guidance, because I was having a lot of anxiety. And I wasn’t, particularly anxious like that before. But it really was around sleep and falling asleep, and I I would not be able to sleep at all. I was up for hours. Jessica: Very, very anxious. You would think I was being attacked by like a, a saber toothed tiger or something. That’s how really anxious I was about sleep and trying to fall asleep. Martin: Yeah, that anxiety can just be so difficult, right? We can, like you touched on, we can have anxiety about what the night is going to bring, and then because the anxiety itself is so difficult to experience, we can have anxiety about the potential of experiencing the anxiety. So we add that on top and it just gets so difficult. You mentioned that there was this impending sense of doom, as bedtime approached or as you were getting into bed and you started to get all these anxious thoughts related to Sleep. Martin: What kind of things was your, was your brain telling you? Was it generating different stories or specific thoughts that you would find would regularly crop up? Jessica: No, I, I tried to, to think what are the thoughts, and quite honestly, I didn’t Like, recognize any thoughts. I only recognize this feeling this tightness in my chest. Jessica: I was like, I don’t even feel like I’m having any thoughts about it. I’m just having this anxiety feeling. It wasn’t probably till much later on that I could see that. I think my body was just starting to generate a response to the whole going to sleep process. What is that going to be like? Jessica: How bad is it going to be tonight? Am I going to be up? Am I going to be able to function? Those common thoughts that people that have sleep issues think about. But I, I didn’t, I didn’t really notice a particular thought, which is the interesting part. I only recognized that feeling, which was, like, awful. Martin: Absolutely. Some people can recognize specific thoughts showing up or can notice them. Other times it’s more the physical sensations that we… are more aware of. I don’t think there’s really any difference between the two. It doesn’t, there’s not really any meaning to draw from the fact that I don’t know what I’m thinking. Martin: I’m just feeling it, whereas other people know exactly what they’re thinking that there’s stories coming up in their brain they’re having specific thoughts. I don’t think there’s really any meaning to draw from that. It’s all really the same thing which is the body or the brain doing its job ironically of trying to look out for us. Martin: So it sees this approach of nighttime. As a potential threat because it’s learned that there’s going to be this battle, we’ve got all these troops coming up over the horizon, which is bedtime. Start getting that heart racing, maybe the shakes, feeling cold, feeling hot, all those fight or flight symptoms, right? Jessica: Yeah, it was total, not flight. It was fight. Like I definitely felt it in my chest and my, I can see now that I was really just preparing for this big long battle of sleep and what it would be like. Jessica: And All the thoughts about it and stuff, yeah. Martin: I think just listening to your story there, we can assume that the nights are going to be really difficult. But were there any kind of common characteristics to what an average night at that time was like? Was it just really difficult to fall asleep? Martin: Or would you find that you could fall asleep, but then you’d wake and find it really hard to fall back to sleep? What kind of things were you dealing with? As it comes to what sleep was like on those nights, Jessica: Well, in the beginning, I think I would try to go to bed earlier. That’s silly thing though. Jessica: Some of us do that. I’ll just get some more sleep tonight. So I’ll go to bed earlier. That, of course, is not helpful. But when I would get to bed, no matter what time it was I would have difficulty falling asleep. I could be up for hours just yeah. tossing and turning and getting really frustrated. Jessica: Really feeling like I wanted to just jump out of my skin with, anxiety or stress. And then what I realize now thanks to my husband actually noticing this is that, uh, sometimes I would fall asleep. But I would fall asleep for five, 10 minutes or something, really, really short. Jessica: Short enough that I didn’t register it as sleep. And I’d kind of like wake back up I’m ready to fight again. That kind of, uh, and I would feel as though there was a long, long period of time, like maybe 10 o’clock to, to three o’clock that I didn’t sleep. There’s probably periods of time that I was. Jessica: And then eventually I would, I would fall asleep and then wake up for work. In which I’m getting up around 5 36. Sometimes I would, uh, sleep in a little bit. Obviously that’s before I started the working your program, but prior to that, I would sleep in a little bit more. But I can’t sleep in much past like 6, 630 because I have to get up and go to work. Martin: So what kind of insights did you get from your husband sharing his observations? Was it you’d have a night where it felt like there was just no sleep happening whatsoever and your husband was sharing that insight. Well, actually, I saw a little bit of sleep happening and then maybe that was a little bit reassuring? Jessica: Yeah, I mean he could see that I was really struggling he doesn’t have any sleep issues, so He kind of like stayed up when I said I’m just gonna stay up with you and support you He was just just trying the best he could you know to support me And and, uh, he was in this position where he was uncomfortable, but he froze because he saw that I was sleeping and eventually had to get out of that uncomfortable position. Jessica: And it woke me up and he’s I knew it was going to wake you up. But in that moment, like later on that next day, I had a little bit of insight Oh, like he said, I was sleeping. But if you asked me, I would have said I wasn’t sleeping at all. Cause it felt like I wasn’t sleeping. So, and he, I mean, he just saw how anxious I was, but that provided me a little bit of insight. Jessica: That I wasn’t completely broken because probably like a lot of people, I really felt like something’s really wrong with me. I don’t know how to sleep anymore. Like, why can’t I sleep? Those thoughts. Martin: It’s really interesting that you said that because I think that’s one, that’s one reason why it can be, feel even more difficult. Martin: It can become even more difficult is our, our brains can just tell us that No sleep happened on one night, and sometimes for sure that could be true. But other times that might not be true. There might be some sleep going on, but as far as our brain is reporting to us it’s nope, there was nothing. Martin: There was no sleep, and then we get really concerned. You know that somehow we’ve lost the ability to generate sleep. But there is always the possibility and Quite often, it’s more likely than not that some kind of sleep has happened, even if it’s just tiny little bursts of sleep, that some kind of sleep has happened, and being aware of that, that there is that possibility that some sleep happened without us being consciously aware of it or able to remember it can be quite reassuring. Martin: So it’s, it’s really good to hear that your husband was able to observe that first and foremost, and then share it with you. Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. It was a good, good learning point for me. And this whole process has been, uh, like these tiny little insights um, And slowly uh, chiseling away at, what was insomnia to learning about myself and how the brain works and and, and how I work, uh, and melting away all of that, it takes time. Martin: Absolutely. So you talked about. What the nights were like and the approach of the nights, were you finding that as you were tangled up in this really difficult struggle, that this was affecting your days as well? Jessica: Truth be told, I actually don’t think it was affecting my days. I think I was able to go to work every day just fine. Jessica: I, I did worry obsessively about it affecting my day at night, especially how am I going to work? How am I going to do this? I won’t be able to function. I had, uh, this study in my head that I had heard about that, uh, like residents I work in the medical field and, uh, that residents, uh, when they didn’t have sleep for whatever, 24 hours, their, their brain capacity is though like under the influence of alcohol. Jessica: And so I had this. And I have this really like responsible job in which I take care of other people, and so I really, it really weighed on me and, uh, and I, and I had that thought like in my head, in my head, in my head, in my head but truth be told, Overall, I was fine. Now I probably wasn’t as jovial. Jessica: I was my, my baseline personality was, was a little bit more subdued. And I had this kind of like little bit of nervous. Energy under the surface. That was definitely going on, but overall, I don’t actually think it affected my day except for the anxiety. I would start to feel that obviously affected things. Martin: I think there’s 2 great insights. The key insights I think you shared there, and I think the first one is, we’ve got evidence that you’ve got one of those human brains that’s always doing its job, trying its best to look out for you, right? So you’ve got a job where you’re looking after other people it’s important, what you’re doing is important, and mistakes, for example, do have consequences, so your brain is firing up and looking out for you, because obviously, if you’re going to work the equivalent of being drunk. Martin: That’s going to cause you issues. It’s going to cause your patients issues. And that’s not reflecting the kind of person you want to be or the life you want to live, right? It’s contrary to what you want to be known for, what you want to stand for, and the life you want to live. So I think that’s the first thing. Martin: And I think that can be helpful to acknowledge that because often we can develop a really adversarial relationship with our brain when it’s doing things. that don’t feel good, or when it’s doing things that feel unhelpful, right? So, when it generates that anxiety, we want to get rid of it, we want to sleep, this doesn’t feel good, stop doing this, why are you doing this to me, brain? Martin: But really, it comes from a good place. It’s your brain looking out for you, it’s just maybe it’s trying so hard, it’s getting in the way a little bit. Totally. And I think the second insight that you shared was that… The thoughts that might be getting generated by your brain can sometimes be different to the experience from your own experience. Martin: Or different from facts. So sometimes the thoughts we can have are true, are facts, are helpful. And at the same time, sometimes they’re maybe less true, not really facts, not really that helpful. So your brain might tell you that if you don’t fall asleep tonight, then… You’re going to give a patient like the wrong medication for example or something like that and that’s terrifying But then you know from experience that well, hang on a minute. Martin: I’ve done this I’ve had multiple nights like this, still to this day, not given a patient, for example, the wrong medication. I’m not sure what your career is or if you give people medication, but I’m just using that as an example because it’s something serious, right? And I think just knowing those two, just those two insights can be helpful, no matter how difficult what the brain is doing comes from a good place. Martin: And second of all, that what the brain is telling us. Can be true and helpful and sometimes it might not be true and it might not be helpful. Jessica: Yeah, totally. My brain was trying to help me. It just went a little haywire and It had the right setting and circumstances that just allowed that to occur. Yeah. Martin: As human beings when we’re dealing with difficult stuff, we want to fix it, right? Martin: We want to get rid of it. When you were still tangled up in that struggle, arm wrestling with all this difficult stuff, what kind of things were you trying at that time to maybe make sleep happen or get rid of wakefulness or to deal with those, that, that anxiety that you’ve already described? Jessica: Yeah, so, I tried melatonin. Uh, I was taking like up to 10 milligrams a night. And and because I had used it in the past, like I would use it here or there if I. Wasn’t, wasn’t able to fall asleep and it was never like a problem because it was very like as needed. And then so I was like, oh, well, I’ll just keep using it because it’s as needed. Jessica: Not understanding the bigger picture at that time. I used Benadryl, uh, that like in combination of the two. Because I was having such anxiety. I thought the anxiety was the problem which I think we should talk about because all of a sudden I had a ton of anxiety, and I thought that’s the problem why I’m not sleeping. Jessica: Not the other way around, like the sleeping was causing, the not sleeping and how my brain was dealing with that was causing like anxiety. So I thought the anxiety was causing the sleep issues. Now, maybe not dealing with some of the issues, the stressors that was going on, I definitely helped set the stage for it. Jessica: But in general, I, I look back now and I see that it was That the whole sleeping issue that was causing the anxiety. So I went to like my provider and I was like, I’m really anxious. They prescribed me Xanax cause I, cause I asked for it thinking if I just take care of the anxiety, I’ll be able to sleep. Jessica: Like I could take a Xanax. I had doubled the dose. Benadryl melatonin. I was still like up, and ready to fight. So, it wasn’t definitely the medications did not help. Uh, so I definitely took those meds in the beginning, uh, for a few months. Again, I was lucky in that I, I found your information. Jessica: Sooner than maybe some other people I didn’t do much of the sleep hygiene stuff Because I I could see that I was already doing that stuff like for the most part I have good sleep hygiene. Like I You know go to bed at a normal time. I wake up around the same time. I Not doing like strenuous things right before bed. Jessica: My room was dark and cold. So I was kind of like, eh, like that stuff doesn’t really apply to me. Jessica: So, uh, I say that like I was having this anxiety like reaction when I would go to sleep a few hours before bed. Jessica: And I thought I was just… Like anxiety and stress was the problem if I just dealt with that, then my sleep would get better on its own. And that’s not really the case. I had a few nights of bad sleep. From a combination of probably a few months worth of some significant, life stressors that were going on and that was how my body like responded. Jessica: It was like, we’re done. Like you, you are too revved up. And because I was in the thick of it and it was like a slow boil. I just didn’t. I didn’t recognize it like at the time. And so yes, dealing with life stressors is an issue. What I came to find out through starting therapy, in this process and talking with you and work and working through all these steps was that what I was doing with like life stressors in general, as I was just like white knuckling my way through them. Jessica: Like I would be like, I’m fine. I’m dealing with it. Like it’s fine. It’s not a big deal. And I just keep busting through every day, all day long, work and kids and family life and stressors. And that has like a, a, a cumulative effect. If you’re not actually dealing with it, I like suppressed and pushed down emotions and I just blasted through every day and not really taking the time to honor my emotions or my thoughts. Jessica: And that I think is what led me to, having this bit of, of initial insomnia. And then, and then it became the insomnia that was really the driving force of all that anxiety. Because I had a lot of thoughts about… Now I can see I had a lot of thoughts about in insomnia, like I shouldn’t be having it. Jessica: I should be able to sleep. I used to be able to just go upstairs whenever I thought I should go to sleep and I would just fall asleep. And I never had any issues, so I shouldn’t have them now. And so I had a lot of thoughts about that, that they shouldn’t be occurring. The should, should, should, right? Jessica: And, and I didn’t realize it at the time, but that it was that insomnia and my thoughts about insomnia that were really driving all that, that secondary anxiety, which is what I was really like responding to. Martin: When you talk about like that white knuckling through it all, I think that might be connected as you touched upon, to, trying to just suppress certain thoughts, certain feelings, certain emotions, right? And a symptom of when we’re trying to suppress them can be all those stories coming up in our mind. Like, why am I having to do this? Like, why is everyone else able to do this but I can’t? Why am I struggling so much? Martin: And then… We can get caught up in that attempt to suppress those too, right? So now we’re trying to suppress our emotions, then we’re trying to suppress our feelings, then we’re trying to suppress the thoughts and the stories and all of this stuff. And boy, that’s, that just takes so much energy, right? Martin: And we’re engaged in that struggle to fight or avoid everything that’s going on inside our minds. On top of, if we’ve got busy human lives like most of us do, and all the stress that comes with just being a human being and having to get through every day, and it just all piles on top and makes everything so much more difficult. Jessica: Yeah, yeah, it becomes like the knot of the Christmas lights, yeah, where everything’s affecting everything. Yeah, I definitely, it definitely wasn’t. I probably didn’t have the best just general stress management techniques and accepting what is, uh, and, uh, like honoring that feeling or emotion, accepting it and then moving on. I’ve gotten a lot better with that. Thanks to insomnia. Actually, now I look at it like it was like this gift to me that I learned so many valuable lessons that make me like a better, friend and spouse and provider, to like my patients. Uh, because I learned a lot of valuable things from this experience. Martin: We’re going to try and mine your brain a little bit to get some of that, that good stuff out to help other people as well that might be listening to this. So, first and foremost, when, when this anxiety turns up whether it’s the physical sensations or whether it’s difficult thoughts and feelings that are being generated by the brain. Martin: From your experience, what did you find was. a useful or a more helpful way of responding to them compared to how I think most of us are hardwired to respond, which is to try and get rid of them. What did you find was a more, a more useful way to practice responding? Jessica: So I used to tell my, so it depends, if it was like at night when I was laying in bed the thoughts of I should be able to sleep right now. And I’d say, Oh, I’m just, I’m not right tired right now. I just have to respect my body. Like my body saying it’s not tired right now. So I’m going to have to, do the steps that you told me if I don’t feel good laying in bed, I’m going to get up and get out. Jessica: That was of course after, going, going through your your course. And then I, or if I’d start to feel myself getting really anxious, I literally would, for me, it works good to talk back to the thought which sounds a little like wonky, but I would just say like you’re safe right now you’re in bed. Jessica: You’re safe, there’s nothing else going around you’re okay and if you don’t sleep a little bit, you don’t sleep, you don’t sleep, or if you sleep, you sleep that practicing acceptance, or I would just say I feel anxious right now, and I would just try to take deep breaths and know and keep telling myself that it was, I was, I was okay nothing serious was going to happen to me and this is of course through stages. Jessica: But those are the things that that worked well for me. And then of course doing your steps I learned that I. Had to wait till I was sleepy to go upstairs to go to bed because of like my brain learned really quickly that the bed and the bedroom and trying to sleep was like the enemy. Jessica: And it ramped up this big, like response to it. It took time for that to, to resolve and get better. And it wasn’t always linear. So I, I would have to like, watch like some quiet show I watched all of Downton Abbey. I watched uh, uh, to call a midwife, these really quiet, like non, uh, energizing shows animal shows at night gentle talking to kind of like calm you down and took hours.Hours to calm me down and, and have my body and my brain in a spot where it was ready to actually go to sleep. Martin: Did you ever have the experience where you’re hanging out, watching TV, or doing whatever you’re doing, you start to feel really sleepy, like you’re drifting, maybe finding it really hard to stay awake, then you go off to bed, and then it’s like this switch flicks, and you’re suddenly wide awake again. Jessica: Definitely, like on the couch I could get sleepy and tired, especially 1, 2 o’clock, and then I would get to bed, and I would feel like right back awake again. And uh, definitely that happened in the beginning. And then very quickly, things got better for a bit and then they stayed in this weird zone where I, I felt like I was like walking on eggshells a little bit about sleep and I can’t ever talk about it with anybody cause then I’m keeping it alive and I can’t read a bed and I can’t do this and I can’t do that. Jessica: I can’t live my life. And it’s all modeled around like sleep and not sleeping and cause it wasn’t like Really bad. I wasn’t having all this anxiety, but it wasn’t normal either. Martin: How did you respond to that kind of switch being flicked? So you’re staying out of bed, till, say, 1 o’clock, 2 o’clock in the morning, finding it really hard to stay awake. You go to bed and then, boom, you feel wide awake again. How did you respond to that? Jessica: I got out of bed and I went back downstairs and I’d watch more TV. And in the beginning, that was a lot. And then as time progressed that got better. And then as that kind of initial, I don’t know, six months where it was really intense, I had this ability to look back a little bit and see and understand, that it was just my brain looking at the bed as it’s time to be awake now. Like now it’s just time to be awake. And I could see that in, in how my body was responding and then the information that you get when you do your course. Martin: To use that kind of battleground analogy again. I think it’s a bit like, we’re behind the, we’re behind the enemy front lines when we’re sitting on the couch, so we’re no threat there, so we feel that strong sense of sleepiness, then we move to the bedroom and we’re back on the front lines and the brain, I don’t think it’s necessarily an issue where the brain is oh, this is a place we have to be awake, so we’re going to be awake, but it’s a place where it’s like, Oh, here comes the battle now, we got the, the, the enemy is lurking here, so we’ve got to fire up everything to protect, to protect you from, from all these warriors that are about to face us down, so then we get feel wide awake, thanks brain, because you’re protecting us from this, this threat that you perceive is no different to a physical threat, it thinks that this is a real threat, so it’s firing up So really what we want to do is just to maybe train the brain that It’s okay that we’re awake, we might wish we were asleep for sure. Martin: But it’s not a physical threat. It’s not the same thing as being on the front lines in the middle of a war zone. It can be really uncomfortable. We would much rather be asleep. But like you said earlier, we’re safe, even though it feels we’re not safe. We are safe. Jessica: Yeah, my, I would have this kind of thought and it wasn’t like a loud thought. It was like this quiet subdued thought of, am I going to be able to sleep? When I go upstairs to bed, am I gonna, and I think that’s enough for your brain to start thinking about, are you, am I I don’t know. Let’s find out. And, uh, that, that would happen to me for sure. Jessica: Yeah. Or, or I lay in bed and all of a sudden my brain, I think I would have that kind of, am I going to be able to sleep? And then my brain would just kick on. And it like a song I heard during the day, like the words would start replaying or like a conversation or a thought process that maybe I didn’t finish during the day what kind of kick back on. Jessica: And that’s partially, and that stuff was going on, of course, in that like really intense period too. That’s why I thought it was, the anxiety piece of it Oh, my brain just won’t shut off. Like it just keeps generating thoughts. And I realized that there was like this one day where I had heard a song and during the day that this, the song was playing in my head, doing normal things and I was like, well, wait a minute. This song going on during the day in my head and doesn’t seem to bother me at all. But at night in my bed, suddenly now it’s a problem. Hmm. Like this doesn’t make sense to me. Like I realized that like my brain was actually doing the same thing. Jessica: Uh, it was always doing generating thoughts and songs and this and that. And, but I was labeling it as bad in the bed. Oh, this is the reason why I, this is why I can’t sleep. My brain feels like it’s going. And I could see that it actually wasn’t like a problem, but I thought it was at the time. Jessica: My brain said I thought this is a problem, but, and then, then it didn’t bother me anymore. So once I had that insight, I could have another song in my head play again and it didn’t bother me at all. Like I was like, that’s fine. Martin: Yeah. That’s, that’s really interesting. And something I was curious to hear your thoughts on was, when you said that you were able to start getting more comfortable with listening to what your brain might have been saying, whether it was helpful or not and maybe having a little conversation with your mind when it was generating thoughts, feelings not necessarily to dispute what it was saying, but maybe just like more of a curious mind with some curiosity, or maybe just being like, yeah, that might happen. Martin: Or why are we thinking this? What does, what’s the information? What’s the insight behind this thought? What is, what’s the meaning behind this? Is there some important information here? Were you able to share? Practice doing that when you were in bed and that’s, and the kind of brain flicked into like hyperdrive, overdrive. Martin: Were you able to get any practice in with that whilst you were in bed, or did you find that you would just get out of bed and maybe, maybe work on responding to those thoughts and those feelings in a different way out of bed? I’m just curious to hear what your, what your personal approach was, just because everyone is different. Jessica: Sometimes I was able to do it in bed. Like I… If I felt like comfortable, like I, I wanted to be in bed, but my brain was like, generating a lot of like thoughts. I would try to be like, well, is that really the case? Am I fine? Like I, I, I would just kind of like try to be more rational because, when you’re all worked up about something, usually that’s not the time that you’re very rational, right? Jessica: Like they, you’re all upset, someone says, calm down, you don’t calm down. So I tried to have a rational, uh, and I tried to be more rational in the moment and question like with curiosity more than to get caught up in that. But I, I was able to sometimes and other times. I was still too revved up and I wouldn’t be able to and I would have to, wait till I calmed back down again. Jessica: And that was probably, where I was on in my journey, right? And that maybe depended on the day, like how my day went or. What kind of other, uh, internal strings I could gather, like at that, at that day versus some other days that aren’t that great, you know. Martin: Some people are just like, if I’m going to be awake in bed and it’s really unpleasant, I’m just going to get out of bed and do something more pleasant instead. Until I feel those cues for sleepiness again. Other people are just kind of like… Martin: I’m just going to allow this to happen whilst I’m in bed. I’m just going to practice responding to this stuff. Maybe just observing it rather than trying to fight or avoid it. And, I don’t think either approach really makes much difference. It’s really about what our intent, what our goal is. Martin: And as long as our goal is… Just to practice experiencing that wakefulness with less of a struggle. It doesn’t really matter whether we’re engaged in that process in bed. Or out of bed. What we’re really looking to do is to avoid moving away from that battle, right? From going to war with the wakefulness and the thoughts and the feelings that might be showing up. Martin: And if we can practice responding in a way that involves less struggle, it probably doesn’t matter too much whether we’re… In bed or whether we’re out of bed. Jessica: Yeah, I, I do remember my brain would sometimes say Uh, like you don’t know how to sleep or you can’t sleep. And I’m like, that’s not true. Like I slept three nights ago. You know what I mean? So I, I I didn’t try to engage too much, but there’s times where uh, that worked really well for me and I could relax right down, it’s that fight. It’s that like struggle. That can really keep you going. Martin: Absolutely. So, something that you mentioned earlier, which I’m keen to explore as well is, So, when we’re tangled up in this struggle and then we feel like we’ve got this new approach that’s proving to be helpful, it can feel a little bit like, we’re walking on eggshells, we’re we’re noticing improvements, things are getting better, but there’s always that kind of residual nervousness or fear that it’s all going to come tumbling down like a big house of cards or something and we’re going to be back tangled up again. And then that can lead us to. Still acting in ways that might not be, we’re acting in this way because this is what we want to do. This is the life you want to live, but we might be getting influenced by, I’m going to act in this way to protect sleep or to avoid thinking or feeling in a certain, feeling certain ways. Martin: So for anyone listening to this, you might feel like. Yeah, I’ve been making progress, but, my confidence is still a little bit shaky and maybe I’m still doing things in an attempt to protect my sleep or to avoid certain thoughts, feelings that might trigger insomnia. Martin: How did you get through that last obstacle? So it felt like you weren’t walking on eggshells all the time. What was that process like for you? Jessica: Well, I called you. Part of it is, like reaching out to people that are going to help you. Right. So, that was you, at that time, which I’m eternally grateful for. Jessica: I, I was, wasn’t fully free yet. Right. But it was a lot better. And there’d be times where probably I was a little bit more stressed or just like life stress. Right. And then it would kind of like start to go the other way. And then I quickly start getting out of bed again and going to bed later. And then it would get better and it would just like wibble wobble between those two spots. Jessica: But I wasn’t ever like better, better where I felt free to not worry. Right. And. And I was having behaviors that were, in a way, reinforcing that insomnia is something bad and, and serious. Like not reading in bed. I always read in bed before. Or, watching a scary show or something like that. Jessica: Uh, I did those things before and it was like, fine. And so I was always really like fearful of it. Like it was like this dark, creepy guy, just in the, like the periphery, uh, of my vision. And I felt like I just wasn’t. There was something not clicking yet with me and when we spoke you, you insinuated or talked about Oh wow, you have a lot of uh, thoughts about, sleep still, like you still have a lot of thoughts about it and you have a lot of judgments. Jessica: And I was like, I like started crying. I was like, Oh my goodness. I had another insight that I was judging my sleep if I was sleeping that night, how well I slept that night uh, and the judgments about it was packed with a form of nonacceptance. I had no idea like that was the case. I had no idea that as I was judging my sleep every night I was not practicing just accepting what is right and what, what’s going on. Jessica: And that’s like a point of resistance. It’s a bit of the habit of white knuckling my way through things, it’s judging it and critiquing it. And when you do that, you’re not just accepting that you’re tired right now or you’re not and, and, that I realized. Was keeping it alive a little bit like it was a little bit of the fire or the the Oxygen for the fire and it was keeping it alive And since I’ve had that Realization things have gotten a lot better and and progressively better where I, I really don’t struggle with it anymore. Jessica: There’s no struggle. I still have nights where I don’t sleep as great. Or I have a hard time falling asleep. Or maybe for some reason, like my kid wakes me up at 3. 30 and then I have a hard time falling back asleep. And okay, like it’s not a thing anymore to me. And that’s like a slow, a slow washing away. Jessica: But I realized because I’m not judging it anymore. I’m not judging if it’s good or bad to sleep. I’m not judging how I did with sleep, right? Like I’m just accepting what is I didn’t sleep so good. Well, I was a little bit worried about something else or a little stress like, okay. Or I, there’s just this nonchalantness about it that I used to probably have on my episodic, sleepless nights or whatever. That I now have again. And I don’t have judgments about it. I don’t judge or critique it in any way. I just accept it for what it is. I’m constantly trying to do that with life because I’m always like, I’m a trier, I’m a doer, like I’m always like working really hard at something and with sleep, it does not work like that. Jessica: If the more attention and focus and walking on eggshells around it and, and doing different activities. You’re just reinforcing that it’s like this big beast, and, and, and you’re not just saying, Oh, it’s part of life. It’s okay. It’s all good. Martin: There’s so much great stuff there. I think when people sometimes hear the word acceptance, some people struggle with that. Martin: Accepting. Like, how do I accept this? This is awful. This is like the worst I’ve ever felt in my life. How do I accept insomnia? How do I accept anxiety? How do I accept the fatigue that comes with it? How do I accept all the distracting thoughts and feelings? Why should I accept it? I don’t want to accept it. Martin: How do we get our heads around this? Like, how is acceptance helpful? And if someone is listening to this and they’re thinking, I don’t want to accept it. How would you explain… The possibilities that acceptance might be a helpful approach. Jessica: I would say I was there too. And when I was really like revved up about everything, I definitely was like, I don’t accept this. I, but again, that was part of my problem is I didn’t accept what was. And so I was creating a battle in that. I think I had an internal shift like an internal realization. And it was like a light bulb went off and I don’t think you can force that. Of course, you can’t force that on yourself, like you can’t make yourself realize this or see this it has to happen naturally, I think and I think it’s being open, open to the idea that what if this kind of concept of. Jessica: What if that other person is right? What if, like what if Jessica’s right? What if I’m judging it or not accepting it? And then I’m doing things because I don’t accept it and that’s what’s keeping it alive. It’s this idea that what if I’m thinking about things incorrectly and someone else that’s been through it may have a different approach that works. Jessica: I think that is like that kind of open curiosity is what can move you through the steps. For me, but I would say I was there like I had that big internal battle that I didn’t accept insomnia and I didn’t want to have it. And. I was probably ashamed, even I didn’t really talk about it with many people because I was like so like ashamed by it, like this big secret or something. Jessica: But in that we’re, we’re giving life to it in a way, uh, yeah. I don’t know that you can force that. Again, you can’t force. You’re trying to like force things. There’s like this tension and pressure I’ve never done well in anything By really forcing that doesn’t mean I don’t work hard like for school or, or, or whatever. Jessica: There’s a lot of things that I work hard for. I, I, I do the reading and I do the studying more, other kinds of examples like that, but I don’t force it. I do the steps, I do the work but if I try to force, force, force, force, force, that’s when things don’t happen. They don’t work well. It’s better when I like do what I, what I can do, do what you can control and let the rest go. Jessica: That is where in my life in general, I’ve made any headways in growth, like as a human being. And, and in insomnia, it’s been the same way, from, it’s, it’s, my life has really followed that. And any time I steer from that is usually when I get a bit jumbled. Martin: I think sometimes it comes down to controllability. Martin: So there’s some things that we can control. But even when there are things we can control. We can’t necessarily control the outcome. So an example would be I’ve got an exam I have to study for so I can control studying. I can read the books, do the work, do the studying. But I can’t guarantee the outcome, right? Martin: I can’t guarantee I’m going to pass that exam. I can’t guarantee I’m going to get a certain score on that exam. I can only control the act of studying for that exam. And I think that sometimes that’s where we can get tripped up, right? Is we can have this outcome or this goal that we want to reach. Martin: And that’s usually helpful to have goals to work toward. But the actual goal itself, we usually can’t make happen. We can work toward it. And that’s where we can get a little bit distracted. And that’s where I think sometimes the word acceptance can be useful. Because it’s about really just accepting that there are, there is stuff that we can’t control. Martin: There’s stuff we can control. And there’s stuff we can’t control, and it’s when we get tangled up into trying to control what we can’t control, that maybe we’re more likely to get caught up in that struggle. Jessica: Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, you can’t control a lot, unfortunately. Uh, and, uh, I definitely think I went…and probably still do a lot, go through life with this kind of, I’m going to control for everything. And to have it be the exact way I want it to be because that’s the way it should be. Right. And I was like that about sleep. I’m going to try to control it, because that’s how, how it should be. Jessica: I should be able to sleep and I should be able to sleep when I want to sleep and I shouldn’t have this problem. And letting that go a little bit because I can’t control it. I cannot control if I’m going to fall asleep. Like I was a little nervous for the interview, today. So I didn’t, I didn’t sleep as well last night, but I feel fine, like I, and it took me a little bit longer to fall asleep and, and then I, my son woke me up and it took me like a lot longer that to fall back asleep and I’m like right back. Jessica: But I was a little worried. I was like a little nervous. But it’s okay because I didn’t judge it. I didn’t try to control it. I was like, okay, like this is what it is. I’m just not gonna get the best night’s sleep that I want to, but in the end it doesn’t really matter. But it took me a long time to get there. Martin: It’s so funny hearing you say about your night last night because I I’ve done like 50 of these episodes, and I still get nervous the night before and the day of when my mind’s generating all these thoughts and feelings about it. So I’m just lying there in bed thinking about it, and then my son wakes up. Martin: He’s, uh, two years old. He’s a little bit under the weather right now. So he comes into the bed with us, and he sleeps sideways. He doesn’t sleep like a regular person. And so we’re in our bed. And I got my wife and my son is right across the bed and basically he’s, his legs are resting across my face. Martin: And that’s the only way he will sleep when he’s, when he’s in our bed, cause he doesn’t feel good. And so I’m lying there and then I’m thinking, okay, so I’ve got, we’ve got this podcast we’ve got to do. We’ve got these emails from clients. We’ve got some other phone calls booked. Okay. We’ve got all this coming up tomorrow and then we’ve got to plan the weekend. Martin: And then all that time I’ve got this foot. In my eyeballs but you know. It is, like you said, it’s about how we respond to it, right? Because I could have responded by just getting really mad, really self judgmental maybe cancelled everything I had planned for today, or I could have accepted that, yeah, this guy, I wish that I could maybe shut the brain off, but I know from experience I can’t. Martin: It’s my brain doing its job looking out for me. I know from experience that even if I move my son, He’s going to go sideways again. I’m not going to be able to get him to fall asleep somewhere else tonight. So I’m probably going to spend quite, quite a good chunk of time awake. But it’s about acknowledging that, being kind to yourself when things feel difficult accepting that we can’t really control that stuff, and then committing to what we can control which, in this example, for you, it was, thank goodness, and I’m really grateful for it, for you giving up your time and still coming on today And, I had a difficult night too. Martin: Here I am still. Just still doing those things because they matter to us. Not because we necessarily feel obligated to do them, but we’re just doing things that are important, things that matter. Those are the things that we can control even after difficult nights or even when there’s difficult stuff showing up for us that we can’t directly control and get rid of. Jessica: Yeah, I guess before this course, I never realized how much our actions affect. Like our thoughts, I thought it was just thoughts to action. I didn’t Understand that it could go the other way too. So I definitely again one of the beautiful things that I learned from all of this Was that our our our actions can really? Jessica: Influence our thoughts and that’s that’s really important it’s an important, important piece of this for sure. Yeah, and I definitely still have nights like that too. Just like last night. Martin: I think most of us can recognize how our thoughts can influence our actions. I just feel like too tired, I can’t do this, then we don’t do something. Martin: On the flip side, how did you find in your experience that your actions could also influence your thoughts or your relationship with your thoughts? Jessica: Ooh, that’s a good one. So I think in general. It was always doing what I was going to do, like going to work every day in the very beginning when it was really, really intense. Jessica: I like called out of work one day which is like super unlike me. And, uh, I, I was like, really, cause I was so anxious, like all day long, this anxiety all day long kind of thing. And, uh, so I think going and doing what your plan is and not. Skipping out. I, even when things were kind of like, okay, but not great. Jessica: Because it wasn’t a hundred percent linear plan. There was like group vacations and trips and stuff that we had planned. And I was a little like, Oh, I don’t know if I’m going to go, I’m not going to sleep. What am I going to do? And like that whole thing. But I did it. I was like, you know what? Jessica: I’m going to do it. I’m going to go. And if I don’t sleep, Oh, well. I’m going to go and I’m going to have fun. Even when I was in the throes of it, I still and it was really bad. I still went to have this big family trip and I went and suffered all night long. But I still did my thing during the day. Jessica: So going and doing what you’re planning on doing is like a pinhole in a tire. You know what I mean? It’s, it doesn’t feel like a lot, but over the course of time. You’re leaking air out of that tire, if the tires insomnia, you it’s it’s leaking that air It’s leaking that life out of it. Jessica: So I do think that’s really important stopping all the medications Was really important because to be honest, they they weren’t even really helping me. And, and I, and I say really meaning that they weren’t helping me at all. Like I could take a lot and I’d be like, still really wired. So slowly and rather quickly, I think weaning off of those so maybe it wasn’t slowly, it was rather quickly weaning off those. Jessica: But I didn’t just stop them cold turkey, I guess is my point. Because taking the medicine is communicating to your brain that the insomnia is a really bad thing. And so that was helpful for me talking about it a little bit because when I, I’m a bit of a open book. Sometimes, and, and, and if I’m keeping things a secret from other people it’s kind of like keeping it like alive in a way. Jessica: I’m not like kind of like freeing myself. So not like obsessively talking about it, but, but saying I had a hard night or something or when I was talking with a friend and just being open and honest about it For me, that was an action. That represented, uh, that it wasn’t a big deal, nothing to be ashamed of, right? Jessica: Nothing to hide. I can understand there’s that whole process where if you keep talking and talking and talking about it all the time, you’re keeping it alive. But it was the other way for me, at least to not be like shameful about it. Martin: The whole topic of medication is itself really interesting when it comes to sleep because some people say, feel that it is really helpful, other people find that it’s not helpful at all, other people find it’s helpful but they don’t want to be taking it other people find it helpful and they’re fine taking it, which is, which is fine, right? Martin: We’re the experts on ourselves at the end of the day so if we feel like this is something we want to move away from, I think what you’ve, you’ve showing us is that it is possible first and foremost. But anytime we talk about medication, always good to talk to your doctor first before making any of those changes. Martin: Now you’re able to reflect back on this whole journey, this whole process. If we had to put like an approximate timeline on it, like, how long roughly would you say that it took for you to get to a point where sleep wasn’t something that you felt was like this ongoing struggle, to use your word, you felt free from it, more free. You were able to act independently of sleep. How long did it take you to get to that point, would you say? Jessica: There was an intense, probably like six months and then another six months where it was kind of like, getting a little bit better. I would say, like eight months. Cause I remember you sending me a thing like, Oh, it’s a year. And I was like, Oh wow. I don’t even feel like it’s an issue anymore. Martin: I like to ask this question in more recent episodes, just because when we talk, talk these things through, we can, they sound a lot more simple when we’re just using words to just describe the process, but in reality, the actual. Martin: The physical process itself usually takes time. There’s usually ups and downs. So I think when people put that into words, it was closer to months or maybe even a year rather than days or weeks that can give us a more realistic idea that this isn’t easy. It is often difficult. Martin: It does take a lot of ongoing practice. And it’s not a quick fix and progress is very rarely linear, but we can get to that point where we free ourselves from that struggle. But it’s very rarely a quick or an easy journey. Jessica: Yeah, that’s true. Uh, but you know, that’s life. Unfortunately, it’s rarely ever quick or easy. Martin: I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out of your day to come onto the episode, Jessica. I’ve just got one last question for you which I’d really love to hear your insights on. And it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, beyond hope maybe that they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia, what would you say to them? Jessica: I would say to do your course. I, I would say, do the course. Or an equivalent course and say to yourself, what if it could get better if I tried a different approach, what, what, what would happen if I tried this approach? Can I try this approach, because that’s really what worked for me. Jessica: And I think it could work for them too. Martin: Thank you again, Jessica, for taking the time out to come on and share your experience. Jessica: You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Eric’s insomnia journey began after he woke in the middle of the night and experienced a huge panic attack. From then on, sleep became very difficult. As he tried to fix things, Eric stopped watching TV in bed with his wife — something they both enjoyed. He tried napping, even though he never used to nap in the past. He tried sleeping on the couch. He tried sleeping in a chair. He tried blue-light-blocking glasses. He stopped traveling. He isolated himself as he became convinced that his struggles were reflected in his appearance. He would beat himself up every time he had a difficult night. Eric’s transformation began when he shifted his focus away from trying to control his sleep, his thoughts, and his feelings and redirected his efforts toward his actions. He started to do more of the things that mattered — even after difficult nights and even in the presence of difficult thoughts and feelings. He started to accept the presence of anxiety as a necessary ingredient for a rich and meaningful life. Eric found that the more he did this, the less power and influence sleep and anxiety seemed to have over his life. Eric was never into meditating but he started to practice meditation — not in an attempt to make sleep happen or to control his thoughts and feelings — but to practice and develop skill in making space for his thoughts rather than trying to fight or avoid them. He also gave himself permission to do something else during the night when he was awake, rather than tossing and turning. Today, sleep doesn’t consume Eric’s attention. His focus now is on controlling his actions and doing things that matter rather than trying to control his sleep and what he might be thinking or feeling. As a result, insomnia no longer holds Eric back. By practicing a new approach, Eric got his life back from insomnia. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin Reed: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin Reed: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin Reed: Okay, Eric, thank you for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast. Eric Flanders: Absolutely. Glad to be here with you. Martin Reed: Let’s start right at the beginning. If you could just tell us a little bit about when your issues with sleep first began and what you think may have caused those initial issues with sleep. Eric Flanders: Yeah, that’s a great question about what caused them because I think if I would have known that it would have helped out a lot, but I really struggled with that answer as to why. I know a couple of years ago. I had a couple of instances over the course of a year where I just was struggling. Eric Flanders: Like I would go two or three days and just not sleeping much at all. And it didn’t really bother me too much at the time. But I’ve had a little bit of anxiety over the course of my life. And the more it started happening, the worse I started to respond to it. And then I had family over to my house during the holidays and I had a rough night of sleep. Eric Flanders: I woke up in the middle of the night and I just was having like this huge panic attack. My heart was racing. I remember waking my wife and up saying, I think I need to go to the hospital. Like, I’m freaking out here. Everything is, it was really bad. And from that night on it Sleep became very difficult. Eric Flanders: And I think probably it added pressure to me because I had family staying at my house. And now I’m like, Oh my gosh, I’m not sleeping. My days were starting to get really bad. And that just led into a night after night. I had a looming doctor’s appointment as well coming up and I hadn’t been to the doctors in 20 years and my wife was forcing me to go just to get my blood drawn and I’m terrified of needles so that on top of everything else, it was just sleepless, sleepless nights. Eric Flanders: And that’s where it really started getting hard for me. Martin Reed: Were panic attacks something you’d dealt with in the past, or was this just kind of it just appeared in the middle of the night, out of the blue? Eric Flanders: Yeah, I mean, this was, I was 41 when this started happening, but when I was younger, around 17, I had lost my mom when I was younger, in my teenage years, and she battled heart disease her whole life. Eric Flanders: So I had some panic attacks at that point in time, thinking that I was Going to inherit those types of heart issues and anxiety can create some of those symptoms like you’re having some type of Health issues and so I did that for about I had it issues for like six months at that point in time And this was again when I was 17 and then but you know, but the doctor told me I was fine So that all went away Never had any issues, no panic attacks, no sleep issues, nothing like that leading up to this point in time. Martin Reed: Some people can really pinpoint the initial trigger for their sleep disruption, which then morphed into this longer term struggle or issue with sleep disruption and for other people, which it sounds like maybe is more aligned with what you’re describing. It doesn’t really seem to be this obvious trigger. Martin Reed: And so I think it’s really good to have. Both sides on both sides of that experience coming onto the podcast, because if we hear that people always can trace things back and there’s a clear and obvious trigger, then we might think, well, there’s something unique and unusual or vice versa. But really, the trigger itself, sometimes it can be obvious, sometimes not. Martin Reed: But largely it’s not that relevant if we find that the sleep disruption is sticking around for. More than just a few nights, it’s usually then becomes… Oh boy, it is. How we respond. Yeah. So on that note, when we’re talking about how we’re responding to it, how did you respond to that sleep disruption when it first started to show up? Eric Flanders: Yeah. I mean, at first it was just the usual stuff. I mean, my wife and I always watch TV in bed. It was always a thing of ours. I’m like, okay. Let me just stop doing that. Right. And again, this was one of my family was there. I’m not a napper at all. And I never have been. And I found myself, Oh, I’m just going to lay down in the afternoon and, try to get some rest so I could at least be, okay, while my family was there. Eric Flanders: But when I would do that, I would just. Obviously not sleep in there while I was trying to nap and that would just make me more frustrated. I didn’t do a bunch more because I had that doctor’s appointment coming up that I just talked to you about and so I had tried those things but now I’m going on like two weeks and I’m sleeping maybe a couple hours a night, if that. Eric Flanders: And I’m moving around. So now I’m trying to sleep on the couch and trying to sleep in the chair. I’m not even sleeping in the bed anymore. And now at this point, my family’s left and gone back to their home. And I’m still, now I’m really panicked. And so by the time I had my doctor’s appointment, I mentioned to him that, obviously I’m having these sleep issues. Eric Flanders: And so he said, well, I’m going to get you sleep and don’t worry about it. I’ll get you sleeping. And that’s when I ended up. With another challenge, which was going down a path of medication and trying to solve the sleep that way. Martin Reed: Back when all this was going on, the kind of, the origin of your experience were there any characteristics of a typical night? Martin Reed: What was an average night like when things were really difficult back then? Eric Flanders: Man, so I have I have a little issue with control, which I’ve obviously gotten better at, because you have to learn that you can’t control some things, and I’ve learned that sleep is one of those, but it took me a long time to figure that out, and so I would go to bed early, like, I’m going to bed at like eight o’clock at night, and that is unusual for me, and I would typically toss and turn in there. Eric Flanders: I mean, for a very long time, maybe three or four hours, and then I would move out to the front room and lay on the recliner and try to sleep out there and do the same thing. And, I would have these moments where, you’re sleeping, but you can, you’re not really sleeping. You’re like in between. Eric Flanders: That’s what most of my sleep was. And that was a typical night, every night. And it didn’t get much better for a very long time. Martin Reed: How about the days? What were the days like? Were you finding that it was also influencing the quality of your days or maybe what you did each day? Eric Flanders: Oh yeah. I’m a big workout guy. Eric Flanders: I like going to the gym. I stopped doing that. I had a very responsible job. I had a couple hundred employees at the time and I still went to work, but I found myself shutting the door a lot to my office and I’m a guy that’s always usually out and, with my teams and I was not doing that a lot. Eric Flanders: I was isolating myself a bit. And just trying to like, I didn’t want folks to see what was happening with me because I felt like everybody could see it on my face. Like, oh he looks, because I felt horrible, you just feel horrible. And so I would always think that, man, they’re going to see right through me. Eric Flanders: So it absolutely affected my days. I stopped traveling, isolated myself with my family at my house and I became terrified to go anywhere. Martin Reed: I think it’s really understandable why we end up doing all of these things, and you touched upon many of the reasons, right? We either, we don’t feel as capable or we feel like we need to get more rest in, so we do less of the stuff that we would normally do. Martin Reed: Yeah. Or we worry about what other people might think about us or what they might see in us. Eric Flanders: Yeah. Martin Reed: I’m curious to know did you ever ask anyone if it was noticeable? Like, could they tell that you’d had a difficult night? I Martin Reed: always asked my wife, right, if she could… How do I look? I feel like I, I look horrible. I know I look horrible. It’s just like, you don’t look any different at all. And what I found myself doing a lot is taking selfies. Like I can’t, I’m never like I was a selfie guy, but I would always take pictures of myself just to see what do I look like right now? Martin Reed: What do I look like? What do I look like? And I still have those photos on my phone. At the time when I saw those photos, I was like, Oh my gosh, I look like a wreck. But when I look at them today, I look completely fine. And so it was really just in my mind, I’d convinced myself that I must look the way I’m feeling. Martin Reed: And so I made a lot of decisions based off of that. Martin Reed: It’s really interesting that you said that and you’ve got that, that record of it that you can now look back and actually see. What you saw, but it’s different to what you saw, if that makes sense, like your interpretation of what you were seeing was different. Martin Reed: And it’s a concern that a lot of people have discussed with me. I’m really concerned about like the circles under my eyes or my eyes look really tired, I don’t want to look this way. What will other people think about me? And it’s all totally understandable. And I think one thing that can help is just as you described, maybe it’s not quite as noticeable. Martin Reed: As you suspect maybe what you’re seeing might be different to what other people are seeing. Yeah. But also, can we control that? Can we control what we look like? I mean, maybe to a certain extent, you might want to put some lipstick on or something like that. Who knows? Lots of eyeshadow. Eric Flanders: But you look the way you look! Martin Reed: Exactly. It’s one of those things we can’t really change. It’s the only thing we can really control are our actions. So maybe we can be kind to ourselves if we’re feeling that we’re not looking the greatest or not feeling the greatest, but then maybe do some other stuff that matters to us, even though we’ve got those big dark circles under our eyes. Martin Reed: And even though we might be thinking that other people might be judging us or making up stories about our appearance, we can’t control any of that stuff, right? We can only control what we do and I think maybe we’ll explore that a little bit more as we continue to talk, but I just found it really interesting that you actually have that photographic evidence that you can now look back on and be like, wow, I can’t really see any differences now, but back then it was real, right? Martin Reed: You saw differences. And that was like one of the concerns. Eric Flanders: Yeah, it’s amazing what it’s amazing how your thoughts can really work against you in a way, I mean, your, the mind is so powerful and your thoughts really can be your worst enemy or they can be your best asset. Right. And it’s just a matter of how you engage with your thoughts is what I’ve really learned over the last couple of years. Eric Flanders: And yeah, at that point in time, my thoughts were telling me that I, Must have looked horrible, right? And so that’s what I was believing. Martin Reed: On the role of thoughts. I think that’s a kind of good segue into talking a little bit more about the role they can have. As many people listening to this or struggling with insomnia are going to be able to identify that if only I could get rid of the anxiety or get rid of the worry or not feel so frustrated with all of this struggle maybe I’ll be able to sleep better. So then we focus on trying to get rid of all these thoughts and these feelings or challenging them or pushing them away when they show up. Martin Reed: Can you tell us a little bit more about your own experience with all those thoughts and feelings? And, did you find that they were? Making things more difficult. How did you initially try and fix that and reduce the influence of those thoughts and feelings? Eric Flanders: Yeah, I mean, they were really taking over. Eric Flanders: I have listened to many of your podcasts when I was going through this and they really did help me out a lot. And I heard a lot of people talk about feelings and thoughts and they were absolutely in my worst way I was for a period of there were I was really beating myself up and just thinking about it constantly, constantly thinking about it looking up stuff, which would just make it worse, and now it’s all I’m thinking about every day. Eric Flanders: Put me in a panic attack at night, I remember I, we had some email exchanges several times and, I was telling you, how do I get this anxiety to go away? It just won’t, it’s the same thing, eight, nine o’clock at night, bedtimes coming around and like, all of a sudden you think you’re going to go have to like present in front of 1000 people. Eric Flanders: And of course, you’re not going to sleep that way. And then you try to control it even more. And I tried to control that by just going to bed. That’s what I would do to deal with it. I’d be like, okay, I’m just gonna go fight this right now. And I don’t care if I don’t sleep, I’m just gonna go lay down. Eric Flanders: That’s what I did and that’s why I had a really hard time with some of the tactics was because I was just wanting to be in control. And so, In order to deal with these thoughts, I would just go lay in bed, and I’d lay there and toss and turn, have a miserable night, and beat myself up all night about it, but at least I was in control, and trying to deal with it that way, and they were very consuming though, it took, I mean literally I spent all day. Eric Flanders: For, I don’t know, a year, probably, thinking about it. Martin Reed: You mentioned that when you find your mind was just going into overdrive, like about sleep and anything else that it wanted to go off and think about, you were just right, I’m just going to go to bed now. So you just go off to bed. Martin Reed: I’m guessing that then you’d be in bed. And the kind of thoughts would still be churning around in your mind. So now you’re in bed, so you can’t get into bed again, right? How would you respond then to when all these thoughts started to reappear once you were in bed? Eric Flanders: I would wrestle with them all for a very long time. Eric Flanders: And instead of getting out of bed and dealing with just being awake, I would just stay in bed and would drive me crazy because I’d get in bed and like, if I’m not sleeping in two minutes, I’m already thinking, well, there we go. I’m not going to sleep tonight. And then that just spiraled into stuff. Eric Flanders: And by that time, my wife’s already asleep because of course she sleeps like a baby, just like everyone who has insomnia. Usually the person next to him sleeps like a baby. And yeah, I would just stay in bed. And that was a very hard piece for me to start to deal with was removing myself. Eric Flanders: And what happened is I started to hate my bed. I hated it. I hated looking at it. I would go in the room and I’d find myself, like, giving it the side eye, like it was somebody I just did not like. And it just did not find it… appealing at all. So it was a whole like having to relearn that whole thing for me. Martin Reed: How about we talk about that now, like that, that relearning process or exploring a different approach. So you mentioned that a change in your approach when things started to get difficult was you’d go to bed earlier. You found yourself wrestling with your thoughts. You implied that You were staying in bed, whereas maybe an alternative option that was available could be getting out of bed. Martin Reed: Curious to hear, the change in approach that you took and how, what that experience was like. Eric Flanders: For me cause it, it sounds like from everybody that I’ve watched on these podcasts and just the different groups I’ve looked at Everyone’s got a different thing that really hit home for them. Eric Flanders: And for me, it was the piece where you talked about, like, don’t change what your plans were the next day, or are the next day, right? So, go live your life to the fullest. And when I did those things, and I started to do those things, what happened is I… I started like being able to convince to myself that I was actually, my thoughts weren’t right. Eric Flanders: That, they were telling me that, Oh my gosh, I’m going to have a horrible day tomorrow because I’m not going to sleep. But then I found myself not having horrible days all the time and being able to enjoy myself. And so it was that piece. And then honestly, it was time. It was being able to have a great couple of nights of sleep, maybe not have a great night that third night, maybe not that fourth night either, but still living my life to the fullest, but then that fifth night I would have a great night of sleep again. Eric Flanders: And then just repeating that pattern over time, slowly it started convincing myself, like, sleep is not the end all be all. I mean, it’s important, but it’s really not the end all be all. You can absolutely live a great life and not have to be so concerned about your sleep. And over time, and challenging my thought processes, and challenging thoughts to just be what they are, and that’s, they’re simply a thought, right, they started to lose their power. Martin Reed: I’m curious to hear when you had this suggestion of continuing to do things that matter, or living your life as though. The insomnia wasn’t there, or living your life even though the insomnia is there. What that was like, because, the reason I ask that is because some of us, when we’re really struggling, we can just be 100 percent convinced that we just can’t, we just can’t do either everything we had planned, or some of the things we had planned. Martin Reed: Or certain activities and just the idea of doing some stuff, doing, following through with our plans or doing anything related to our plans or even just getting out of the house can just feel like it’s going to be impossible because we might have had two, three, four, five, six or more nights in a row. Martin Reed: Very little sleep. What was your experience like with that? Was this something that was a difficult change for you to make, or was it difficult to push yourself to, to stay active and do things that you had planned? Eric Flanders: It was one of the hardest things. I mean, I say it as it’s easy, but let me just add that challenging those things up front at first was very hard for me. Eric Flanders: I remember. Towards the end of, and I get to say the end, but towards the end of my insomnia days, where I was still really in the midst of it. I was living in Florida at the time, and my daughter and family is in California. My daughter is getting married. And I have not gone anywhere. in two years now, right? Eric Flanders: Because I’ve been dealing with this insomnia and I’ve really isolated myself and I know I have to fly to, I have to fly to California. I have to be out there for five days. I’ve got to walk my daughter down the aisle. All of these things. And I think I worried and freaked out about this and this trip for like six months from the day. Eric Flanders: She told me I was like, oh my gosh It’s coming. It’s coming. It’s coming and I remember getting to California and with my family and that first night we got here I didn’t sleep one minute not one minute and I was you know, we’re in a strange bed, And I’m up all night. I’m telling my wife. Oh my gosh, like this is gonna be a wreck And how am I going to do this? Eric Flanders: And the next day I just went throughout the day. My family was all with me in the in, we’re all together and challenged my, my, I forced myself to just be normal as much as possible. And you know what? That next night I slept and that was a big milestone for me. Cause I’m like, okay, wait a second. Eric Flanders: I thought I was never going to be able to sleep anywhere again. Right. And granted the first night was not very good, but the second night I slept really well. And then I’m like, I think I’ve got some going here. And then the next few nights I I had some decent sleep, but not complete sleep, but I was able to completely. Eric Flanders: Go to the wedding and have a great time. Walk my daughter down the aisle. So everything I told myself for that six months was not true. And had I not gone, because believe me, there were times where I said, I’m just not going to go. I would have just reinforced everything that was not true. And I would have, it probably would not have gotten better for me, but because I decided to go. Eric Flanders: Face that thought and challenge it. That’s what really helped me out. And that was a big breaking point for me. That was a big breakthrough. And then two months later, I sold my house in florida and I moved to California. Still having some sleep issues, but I mean, selling your house, moving across country, all of that goes in with all that stresses and all that. Eric Flanders: Still, I started challenging everything and the more I challenged it, the more I felt like I was Letting go. Martin Reed: There’s so much powerful stuff there. I think maybe the key insight there is that we can still commit to actions. Regardless of what our brain might be telling us, what the thoughts that are showing up might be. Martin Reed: So, even though you had all those thoughts, all those doubts, all those worries, maybe all those anxieties, or lack of confidence, I can’t do this, I shouldn’t do this. You should… Went ahead and did it, even though your mind was just churning out all those different and very difficult thoughts, feelings, stories, emotions. Martin Reed: And I think when we have that experience of being able to recognize that we can still control our actions, regardless of what our mind might be telling us. That can be really powerful to experience, that we have thoughts and we have actions and our thoughts don’t necessarily have to control our actions. Martin Reed: That’s something that we can still control no matter what our mind might be churning out. Eric Flanders: Yeah, and you know what else I was doing is… Is I, would have a night or two of bad sleep, or no sleep, and that would start the whole thought, which you know is wrong, is I’m not, I’m never gonna sleep again. Eric Flanders: I don’t know how many times I’ve told myself that, over and over again. Even if I would have a couple of good nights of sleep, the second I would have a bad night of sleep, I’m like, Not gonna sleep again. And for some reason that was a very believable thought even though I had been sleeping you know eventually you fall asleep and When you really start believing it and I again, I think it has to do with time and I say time Meaning that you’re not trying to do anything to fix sleep Like you’re challenging it 100 percent on your own without anything there to help you. Eric Flanders: Because once you add a crutch, then you start thinking the crutch is what caused it. You have, for me, it was about, I’m not going to do anything. I’m just going to go at it and then I started learning over time, and that’s what brought the anxiety down is, you start to your mind starts to learn that, hey, this isn’t right. Eric Flanders: That’s not that thought is not correct. And so now, I mean, if I have a bad night of sleep now, which I still do it’s totally fine. That’s totally fine. Tomorrow I’m going to the gym. I’m working out like crazy. And I’m gonna, I know I’m going to sleep eventually. And I do. Martin Reed: That’s another one of those places where there can be that disconnect, right? Martin Reed: So I just, well, we just both talked about that disconnect between our thoughts and our actions. Another one can be there’s often a disconnect between our thoughts and our experience. So our thoughts might be telling us something like. We’re never going to sleep again, ever, which is really scary. But our experience tells us that’s never happened. Martin Reed: We might have a thought that says, if I go into work after another night of no sleep, I’m going to get fired. I’m going to lose my house. I’m going to be homeless on the streets. Our experience tells us, well, that’s not happened. I mean, that’s not to say it won’t necessarily happen. Nobody can predict the future with 100 percent accuracy. Martin Reed: But often, this kind of stories our brain generates whilst it’s working really hard to look out for us and protect us and help us do what matters. There can be this kind of disconnect between what it’s saying. And what we know from experience to be maybe more accurate or more likely. Eric Flanders: Yeah, I’m not a big reader. Eric Flanders: But I found myself doing lots of reading on anxiety and things like that. Just trying to educate myself on it. And there was one thing that really stuck with me and that was there was this phrase initiate to generate, right? And that’s what I, you started doing. And this, you have to initiate. Eric Flanders: A situation in which you are going to feel anxious about in order to generate new learnings behind it, right? So it was initiate to generate so I started just saying to myself I’m nervous right now to go do this But then I said I’ll have to go do it because I can’t generate any new experiences behind that thought Until I do it and I had done these I mean, I mean I had anxiety about so many things because I took over at this point, because I was starting to believe in all of these thoughts and I had to really relearn a lot of different things. Eric Flanders: And the only way you can really do that is to go out and challenge those thoughts and see that it’s not all true and by doing that, yeah, I was able to really get out of that dark spot I was in. Martin Reed: I think another example of that whole thoughts versus experience, similar to what you were just describing, I think that’s another reason why we can so easily get stuck, just trying so hard to make sleep happen, or to wrestle with our thoughts and our feelings. Martin Reed: We get tangled up in that struggle. And our experience is telling us this isn’t working. This has been going on for a long time. We’re not really getting where we want to go. But our mind is telling us well, I’m a little bit out of ideas here. Maybe you don’t hear that part, but the brain’s out of ideas. Martin Reed: So it just says, well, let’s just keep doing what we’re doing and we’ll just try harder. So we’ll just try even harder to get rid of these thoughts, these feelings. We’ll try even harder to make sleep happen. We’ll try even harder to get rid of that wakefulness. So that’s just another one of those kind of disconnects, right? Martin Reed: So we can be convinced that we just need to keep doing what we’re doing. Maybe something will change, but our experience on the other hand. is telling us, well look, there’s nothing’s been changing up to this point. But it can be really hard because They, our thoughts can be so convincing, right? They can just seem like they’re 100 percent true. Martin Reed: They’re complete facts. And we trust our brains, right? We recognize that the brain has been with us our whole lives. Generally does a good job of steering us in the direction we want to go. So when we get these thoughts that, are scary, worrying. big obstacles to the life we want to live, we can just assume that they’re 100 percent true 100 percent of the time and that’s just another one of those areas where we can get a little bit tripped up. Martin Reed: That’s right. Yeah, I mean, it snowballs, I mean, you can, you start worrying about sleep and that can really get your fight or flight activated. Right. And now that transfers over to other things in your life. And now all of a sudden, your anxiety is just running, on superpower and at no fault of your own. Eric Flanders: Right. It’s just. It’s just that’s what happens and you’re and then it’s your mind can really become a little bit addicted unfortunately to worry and You can find yourself just doing it more and sleep could have been the cause of that Initially, or maybe that was the effect of you worrying about other things. Eric Flanders: I don’t know but either way You know that whole thought process is a game changer And being, and it’s helped me in other parts of my life, that would give me anxiety before now I’m, I just, I don’t engage with those thoughts like I used to. Martin Reed: Going back to that experiment that you said that you were doing I’ve forgotten the phrase, it was initiate to… Eric Flanders: Initiate to generate. Martin Reed: Initiate to generate. Yeah. Let me ask you a question about that. Did you find that maybe whilst you were engaged in those experiments that it… It reminded you or made you more aware of the fact that when we do things that matter to us… Even not completely unrelated to sleep, but just when we’re doing things that matter to us, things that are important, often some difficult stuff will come with that. Martin Reed: So, for example, off the top of my head, just the idea of walking your daughter down the aisle, oh, what if I trip? I’m gonna feel some anxiety, maybe some worry. Or if I want to advance my career, I have to do a job interview, so I get the butterflies, I get the anxieties. When you are engaged in that experiment, Was that something that you noticed too? Martin Reed: Did it reinforce this idea that in order to do things that matter, we have to make a little bit of space for some of that difficult stuff too? Eric Flanders: Yeah. Yeah, I still do that today. I mean, I, with my job, I do a lot of presenting. And even today I tell myself for an hour before I’m getting on camera, it’s like, oh my gosh, all of these things can go wrong, and I’ve done this my entire life with having to do that, but. Eric Flanders: Now it’s not so powerful. It’s still there and the thoughts are there. I mean, I don’t push them away or try to ignore them, but I just don’t engage completely with them anymore. Now I’ve learned that those things could possibly happen. Yes, they absolutely could possibly happen. But does that mean they’re going to happen? Eric Flanders: No. And that’s the difference. Not saying, they’re not going, not trying to remove them completely by saying, yeah, those can’t happen. Yeah, everything can happen, but it doesn’t mean it’s gonna happen. Like the worst case scenario type of thing. Martin Reed: Oh, 100%. And, just whilst you were describing that to me, I can just use this discussion that we’re recording right now, so an hour or so before, even earlier in the day today, I’m thinking, right, everything I’ve got to get ready for this discussion with you, right? Martin Reed: And then my brain is like, what if the batteries run out on this light that you’ve got up here? What if the power goes out? What if there’s a power outage? What if the trains will start going by? What if I completely freeze up and I forget all the questions that I plan to answer? What if I get a cough? Martin Reed: What if I lose my voice? All of this stuff is going through my mind, right? And, when, for the first few podcast episodes a few years ago, They would feel way more powerful than they do now because I didn’t have that experience to support that I can still do this even when the brain’s churning, barreling along at a million miles an hour. Martin Reed: But even to this day, with years of experience doing this, I’m still getting those thoughts. But the difference now is, I think it’s a skill. I’ve got more skill in acknowledging them and being able to just know from experience that, alright, this is my brain looking out for me. Thanks brain, you’re just keeping me better prepared for what I’m about to do. Martin Reed: And just maybe keep me a little bit sharper, maybe. But it’s not something that kind of hooks me, jerks me around, and makes it impossible for me to act anymore. It’s something that I can still do these things when my brain is doing all the things it chooses to do. Eric Flanders: Yeah, because your mind just wants to, it’s just trying to protect you, right? Eric Flanders: It’s trying to protect you from an embarrassing moment or from failure. And unfortunately, we all are really scared of failing these days. I mean, it’s just what we’re brought up with, right? Don’t fail. So yeah, everything that you’re doing, you’re, you convince yourself of that, but you’re right, you have to go put yourself in those situations, or at least I did. Eric Flanders: I had to really put myself in situations that challenged what my thoughts were. And it was the hardest thing ever, and it didn’t always feel good. And I think that’s the key, like sometimes you’ll go do it. You won’t want to do something, but you’ll go do it anyways. And sometimes it just doesn’t feel good while you’re doing it. Eric Flanders: But when you’re done doing it, even though it didn’t feel good, it’s still another learning experience. Like I didn’t die, it wasn’t the end of the world. It wasn’t the greatest of times, but it wasn’t the worst of times. It wasn’t the end of the world. And so. Just making sure you go and do those things is extremely important and it really helped me out with my my sleep. Martin Reed: I think sometimes it can be helpful to just maybe ask ourselves what the alternative is to whatever we’re doing, so if we feel like What we’re doing now isn’t getting us where we want to be. Is there an alternative approach? So for example, if we’re calling in sick to work on a lot of days, if we’re cancelling plans, we might just ask ourselves, is there an alternative here that we can even just experiment with? Martin Reed: If we’re spending a lot of our time battling with our thoughts, trying to push them away when they arrive, wrestling with them is there an alternative here? Because sometimes, you just like you touched upon when you said, I would just do things. I would still do things even after difficult nights, even when those difficult thoughts and feelings turned up. Martin Reed: Because if we don’t do that, what is the alternative? In that example, it’s doing less of the things that matter. And when we do less of the things that matter. We tend not to get to where we want to be or where we want to go. Eric Flanders: That’s right. Yeah. And then usually you’re sitting in your house obsessing over. Eric Flanders: What’s going on in the first place, and you’re not even allowing your mind to, to go somewhere else, right, or experiencing something else and that obsession can really become your life. And it certainly was my life for a good period of time. Martin Reed: You’ve talked about how you would, experiment with actually seeking out some difficult thoughts and feelings just to practice almost like an exposure therapy. Martin Reed: But basically by just complete, just allowing yourself to experience it. Maybe moving away from thoughts, directly influencing your behavior, being able to practice taking a step back when your thoughts might be saying one thing, taking a step back and then deciding how to respond to them. Was there anything else, that in your experience was helpful in terms of letting go of that struggle? Martin Reed: With the thoughts and the feelings that tend to show up either when you’re awake during the night or when your brain starts to think all about sleep and the upcoming night during the day. Eric Flanders: Really, for me it was really that. Piece that we’ve already touched on, which is just trying to challenge the next day and I really needed to convince myself that This wasn’t true because I tried everything You know I was staying up later. Eric Flanders: I was getting up in the middle of the night and I was even trying to be physically active and all those types of things, but I wasn’t doing it to the extent that I wanted to. And it really, the game changer for me was challenging it and allowing time and, not influencing it, trying to do something to influence sleep. Eric Flanders: That was the biggest thing I was always trying to do something to improve on it and I touched on the medication piece. I had I don’t know how many times things I tried but I had Returned a bag of medication to the pharmacy and I have never taken medication in my whole life ever I’m like an anti medication guy and Not to say that it’s not a good thing for some folks But for me, it just wasn’t the answer but I had a bag like that of different medications that I had been prescribed over the course of this year and a half through different doctors because I had seen therapists and primary care physicians and all of these things and the answer was that, but you know, as always, anything you try, maybe it doesn’t work. Eric Flanders: Maybe it doesn’t, but if it does work, it’s not going to work for long for me, right? It would work a couple of days a month at the most. And then it wasn’t. And then so I had this medication thing along the road with me for A year and a half and then, I finally said enough is enough and I needed to do this on my own. Eric Flanders: And so I just let everything go. I stopped trying to use medication as a supplement. I stopped everything, which was not easy. It was very hard. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life. Trying to get rid of all of that, but I did. And when I faced it on my own and I just let it run its course and just live my life the way I knew I wanted to do it and challenged my thoughts And I challenged them with my actions. That’s what really changed it for me. Martin Reed: It sounds like your approach to the medication You just recognize this was something that it was important to you not to take medication if it could be avoided. Martin Reed: So did you just make that decision? I’m just not gonna go down this route. This isn’t a path I’m gonna take anymore. I’m just gonna stop. It was like a cold turkey or I’m not even gonna go on it. Or was it like a tapering process? I’m just curious to hear a little bit more about that. Eric Flanders: I had tried both. I had tried, I tried tapering for a while and I found that it was just prolonging my experience, and I wanted to just be at my core and deal with this on my own at the time, and so, I’m not a religious guy very much either, I mean, but I have gone to church before, and so I, Went to church one day and I was sitting in there all by myself because it was in the middle of the afternoon and I was at a breaking point and I was breaking down obviously in church and by myself and I, whether it was a sign or not, but I just asked myself and I was speaking out loud and just said, what should I do? Eric Flanders: And I remember thinking about, should I just, Give up on all this stuff and let it go and feel comfortable. And the bells ring. I mean, it happened to be, the time the bells ring anyways, but it was assigned to me. And from that day on, I went home and I told my wife, I said, I’m done with this. Eric Flanders: And, again, one of the hardest things that I’ve ever gone through in my life trying to get away from that. But it was absolutely for me the right thing to do because I knew that I needed to be able to approach my sleep without anything or any help. And. It was making it more difficult. Martin Reed: Did, I’m just curious, did your doctor give you any kind of suggestions? Did you talk to them about, this is a kind of route, this is something I want to get away from. Did they offer you any suggestions on a useful way forward for that? Eric Flanders: Tapering is the safest way to do it and that’s always going to be the medical recommendation. Eric Flanders: But for me, it was, I was in such a bad place when I was on the medication and It was the same when I was tapering and I’m like, this can’t, this is so bad. I can’t do this for six more months. And that’s what I was thinking about. Like, this is going to be a six month taper and I’m not going to be able to do this. Eric Flanders: And so I just, I knew it was going to be very hard. I knew it was going to cause. Some hardships, just letting go of it. But I did, and I remember that day and it was hard. It was very hard and they recommended all kinds of things like go do yoga. Practice meditation. Eric Flanders: So I did start meditating which did help. I got an app on my phone and I had never been a guy or meditating type of person. I would totally have said that’s for the birds before, but it helped a lot because when you’re just sitting there I, that’s where I really learned that thoughts are thoughts, cause my mind, when you close your eyes and you just by yourself your mind takes over and. Eric Flanders: Then you can really recognize thought patterns and just let them be and not engage with them. And the better and more practice you, you do the better you get at just letting things go. And so I guess meditation did help in a way. I really don’t do it as much as I used to, but. It does help with thought patterns. Martin Reed: What was the medication that you were taking at the time? Eric Flanders: Oh man, I mean, I took all kinds of stuff. I took I took a Klonopin, which is a benzo, right? And I took that for a while. The other medications I was on… were more anxiety driven at medication. So the doctor was trying to help my anxiety go away. Eric Flanders: But all of the anxiety medications that I was trying were making my anxiety worse. And because I wasn’t handling what was causing my anxiety. And so, I took 20 different anxiety medications over the course of a year, which I would not recommend. But yeah, I tried hydroxyzine. That was something they prescribed to me at first, which is just like a Benadryl type of thing. Eric Flanders: That was for sleep. And then the Klonopin was later. I didn’t take that for very long, but all of these things I had to get off of. And then I ended up taking Mirtazapine, which is a older anxiety medication, which also can help her sleep. And so that was another one that I was taking at the end there, but I just let them all go. Eric Flanders: And I remember the doctor that I had who had prescribed those she was saying, look, if you’re not going to, if you’re not going to do what I’m telling you to do, like we just can’t see each other anymore. I guess we’re done. Because I just was not going to take the medication and that was what her only answer was. Martin Reed: It’s been great listening to you describe, your change in your approach to the wakefulness and the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it and doing things that matter and a lot of that is When we’re awake, it’s daytime, lots of distractions available to us. How does that translate to changing your approach at night? Martin Reed: Because fewer distractions, right, at night we tend to be more alone, less social, less of a social environment, fewer distractions. How do you change your response toward a day? difficult thoughts and feelings that can come with the wakefulness and that temptation to start wrestling with it again and tossing and turning and dealing with all that difficult stuff. Martin Reed: How do you change your approach there? Eric Flanders: Yeah, and those thoughts don’t go away. For me, at least they haven’t, right? So I still go to sleep at night. And I think if you’ve had insomnia, like really have had it, man, I don’t know if those thoughts ever go away because it’s like a very traumatic experience. Eric Flanders: It so when I go to sleep I still have those thoughts. They still are in my mind saying, I’ve been laying here five minutes, and and, but now I say, well, so what? I’ve been laying here five minutes, who cares? And that could turn into an hour. And it’s, I still, at this point, now am I’m totally fine with being awake. Eric Flanders: And, cause I know eventually I’m gonna fall asleep. And you will if your thoughts don’t create these emotions. That trigger all kinds of like chemical responses in your body where, now you got adrenaline going on, right? And your sugar levels start spiking and all of this stuff starts happening. Eric Flanders: But if you just let those thoughts be, and they still happen for me often it will be fine. Like you will fall, you’ll fall asleep. And I don’t find myself thinking about it very much though, before I get in bed anymore. So like, when it’s dark and it’s eight o’clock I’m enjoying my evening with my wife and my son. Eric Flanders: And sometimes I go to bed with my wife. Sometimes I stay up and watch TV. It’s no big deal anymore. But when I get in bed, I close my eyes, there’s the thoughts still happening, and it’s totally okay. And I would say it’s okay if those thoughts are happening. That’s what I would say to myself if I could. Eric Flanders: It’s totally fine that those thoughts are happening. It doesn’t mean anything, but that’s not easy when you’re going through it. Oh, man. Martin Reed: Yeah. Exactly, and I’m so glad that you do keep emphasizing that because it’s, I think it is one thing to say You know, yeah, I just have to allow these thoughts. Martin Reed: But the thing is, we don’t want to allow them, because they don’t feel good. Now, but what again, it’s going back to what’s the alternative, if we don’t allow these thoughts to just flow through us to come and go as they choose, the alternative is to battle with them. What does your own experience tell you there? Martin Reed: If your own experience is telling you that battling isn’t really helping, then maybe it’s time to experiment with that new approach. Yeah. And allow the thoughts to come and go even when they are really difficult. Eric Flanders: It is so hard to, yeah, I mean, I heard folks say that on these types of calls and I’m like, wait, that sounds amazing. Eric Flanders: Like, please, I just want to be that person. Like, how are they doing that? How does that just happen? And. Going back to what I said before it only happened for me when I started to just one night of no sleep, two nights, no sleep, three nights, no sleep, a couple, I didn’t care. I went and did what I wanted to do. Eric Flanders: It was very hard to do it sometimes, but I did it anyways. And so when I started laying in bed and those thoughts would happen now, I could tell myself like, what’s it matter? Like tomorrow, I’m gonna do what I’m gonna do anyways. It doesn’t really matter. Like I, I don’t need to have a sleep tonight. And that’s hard to, again, say when you’re sitting on the other side of it. Eric Flanders: But at the end of the day, if you get up the next day, stay up. You’re, you can go do what you want to do. You can. You can go do whatever you want. You’ll probably surprise yourself. And so the thoughts lost their steam after that, but when I wasn’t living the life I wanted to live, when I was purposely not going out, when I was not seeing my friends, when I wasn’t just going to the gym and doing all these things, not flying around, like I love traveling, not doing any of that, it really gave all those thoughts power. Eric Flanders: And so those thoughts become real powerless when you just, who cares? And it doesn’t happen overnight. I mean, this is a process. Martin Reed: Absolutely. It is a process. I’m keen to hear your thoughts on that. It was, if you are going to reflect back on when you were really tangled up in the struggle, and it felt really difficult to when you get to a point where it feels like, I can live my life independently of this stuff. Martin Reed: It’s not something that is always on my mind. I’m always trying to troubleshoot. If you had to put an approximate timeline on that process, on that part of the journey, how long would you say roughly that took? Eric Flanders: When I really started challenging my thoughts and doing what I wanted to do and live the way I want to, I really… Eric Flanders: saw slow progress over the course of maybe three or four months. And so I was constantly having to challenge things. And then it took about six months for me to start really feeling comfortable about those difficult thoughts. So it was not overnight. And I don’t think everyone’s timeline is the same. Eric Flanders: I will say that I, when I listened to some of the things I’m like, well, man, that maybe their situation just wasn’t as bad as mine, and so I would keep telling myself that. So I wanted to really tell everybody who’s going to listen to this. I was literally in the worst case scenario possible in my mind. Eric Flanders: Like it was that bad, just knowing who I am where I was at. And so it took longer for me. It wasn’t overnight. And but I kept at it. I kept doing it and doing it and just, wouldn’t let sleep prevent me from doing what I wanted to do and I took on another job. Eric Flanders: I got promoted, all these things happened while I was challenging all of this stuff. And Yeah, I’m here today because I did that. Martin Reed: Yeah, everyone’s timeline is different, but I think the one thing that they all share in common is they’re always longer than we want them to be. We always want to make that progress really quickly. Eric Flanders: They are longer. Martin Reed: Yeah, exactly. But it’s another one of those things we just can’t control, right? Just like we can’t control sleep itself. We can’t control what goes through our minds. We can’t control the timeline. We can only control. the implementation, the practice, the exploring a new approach if our previous or current approach isn’t working. Martin Reed: That’s the only thing we can control is we can control what we’re doing on the journey. We can’t control when we’re going to reach that final outcome. And it often takes longer than we’d like. That’s for sure. Eric Flanders: Yeah. Eric Flanders: And I’m not a patient guy, so it was really yeah, it was really working against me because of, control. Eric Flanders: I’m a little bit of a controlling guy, gotten better at that. No patience. Like, I mean, yeah! Martin Reed: Did you change your approach in terms of like when you would go to bed at night? Because I remember at the start of our discussion, you said you started to go to bed a lot earlier at night. Did you is that one of the things you change? Martin Reed: You started to go to bed either later at night or more closely to when you used to go back to when you used to go to bed before all of this struggle appeared. Eric Flanders: Yeah, i, I, so I had a hard time with it because. I knew that staying up was the right answer, but when I found myself being awake and of course you’re the only one awake when you’re doing this, right, your family’s sleeping and you want to be in there. Eric Flanders: And so I had a really hard time with being awake by myself and it would just make me more anxious. And so I would give into that anxiety and just go lay in bed, which would make it even worse. So I would stay up late. And then I would go to bed and then I would jump out and so, at first I was going to bed early and then I slowly started like extending my hours and then that changed over time. Eric Flanders: Now I, I just go to bed when my wife goes to bed. I mean, I moved to California, like I said, and hours changed, right? The time zones changed, all that changed and we still work on East Coast timeframes. So, I’m starting. work and my wife at 530 in the morning here, and that would have terrified me before. Eric Flanders: How am I supposed to do that? And now I like getting up early, which I would never have done before, but I actually enjoy getting up early and seeing the sun come up and having a cup of coffee, whereas when I was really overthinking everything, it was giving me severe anxiety getting up earlier. Eric Flanders: So yeah, the sleep times changed for me. Martin Reed: And how about responding to the wakefulness with actions during the night? Were you one of those people that found it helpful to get out of bed when your mind was in overdrive, or were you one of those people that prefer to stay in bed and just experience the thoughts, practice allowing them to flow? Martin Reed: I’m curious what your approach was there. Eric Flanders: Yeah, I towards the end, I got a lot better with getting out of bed and I became okay with being awake. And I, when I would get out of bed at first, I would start, I was doing things that were not natural to myself. Right? Because a lot of people just recommend we’ll do something boring, right? Eric Flanders: That’s not super engaging. And that’s exactly what it was. It was super boring and like doing crossword puzzles or word searches or things like that. I would do tons of those things, but that’s not something that I enjoyed. So it made my time awake. Unenjoyable and I was already not enjoying it. And so, I started when I wake up now, I would just turn the TV on, and I know the TV, I would always, I bought blue, the blue sunglasses, right. Eric Flanders: To block out the light from TV thinking, Oh man, the lights just allowing my serotonin is not working. Right. Because, so I started doing all these weird things. I was, I’d be the only person in my house wearing sunglasses at night, watching TV. And Yeah. That obviously didn’t help at all, but I was doing it anyways because I was looking for anything. Eric Flanders: But then now, if I wake up, I just watch TV and I’ll watch a show and then I’ll go lay down again and see if I fall asleep. And I usually do. But most times I’m going to bed with my wife and I’m sleeping pretty quick. Martin Reed: I think really what it comes down to is just that more natural approach, right? Martin Reed: There’s, you move away from the rules and the rituals, whether it’s I have to wear a certain type of glasses or I can’t watch TV. We come up with all these rules and rituals for ourselves, even though if we’re able to reflect back on a time in our lives when sleep wasn’t a concern. Will we engage in those rules and rituals back then? Martin Reed: And if not, maybe that tells us something. Yeah. There’s always some insights to be gleaned there. But, and I love, what I really like was the fact you touched upon a few times during our conversation was there are still some difficult nights from time to time. You’re not some kind of superhuman that’s having a great night of sleep every single night. Martin Reed: What’s different now? I mean, First of all, are you still having some difficult nights from time to time? And if so, what’s different in terms of how you respond to them now and the kind of influence they might have over you? Eric Flanders: Yeah, I you know, I thought you know over the course of my life. I’ve always been an amazing sleeper and But in reality, I was telling myself that when I was going through this not remembering that man Most people don’t sleep great every night and I was not anything out of the normal. Eric Flanders: I, I had nights where I didn’t sleep great, but I totally forgot about that when I was going through it. I was like, I went from zero to nothing or a hundred to nothing here today. I would consider myself. Not having insomnia anymore. That I would absolutely consider, but does that mean I don’t have a night once a week where I’m getting three or four hours versus eight? Eric Flanders: Yeah that absolutely can happen. I don’t give it any attention now, because I know And I’m confident, like I’m going to sleep great probably the next night and usually I do, right? I mean, that’s just what happens, right? Your body knows when to sleep and when not to sleep if you’re not trying to play around with it. Eric Flanders: And so, it’s not abnormal for me to have a rough night and it’s, I wouldn’t even consider it a rough night anymore. I would consider it, it’s just me laying in bed comfortably. I, maybe I’m just not sleeping and that’s totally fine. It’s okay for me now and it the bed is now a comfort for me You know, I enjoy being in there whether i’m awake or not. Eric Flanders: Whereas before it wasn’t and So yeah, it’s not like a you know All of a sudden I had insomnia and then all of a sudden i’m a perfect sleeper again That’s just not the reality of the situation And it could be circumstances Something i’m thinking about the next day right things happen in life where you have something really important the next day and that can keep you up you know There’s all kinds of things and explanations as to why maybe you don’t have a great night of sleep. Eric Flanders: And that’s okay. It’s totally normal. I think that’s what I finally understood is it’s totally normal. Martin Reed: Absolutely. Well, Eric, I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out your day to come on and just share your experience and your story and your insights. Great stuff there. I do have one, one last question for you which is a question that’s quite similar to my final question for every guest, so I’m gonna ask you the question too, and it’s this. Martin Reed: If someone with chronic insomnia is listening, and they feel as though they’ve just tried everything, that they’re beyond help, that they’ll just never be able to move away from this struggle with sleep, this struggle with insomnia, What would you say to them? Eric Flanders: I would say that I was absolutely right there where they are right now and absolutely believing that there was no hope for me either. Eric Flanders: And I say that from the bottom of my heart because it was, it’s absolutely true and being here today I am very grateful for it because I never thought I would be here today but I would tell anyone who’s sitting there listening to this and really having a hard time that to be, you said, kind to yourself and not beat yourself up over it because, if you could choose not to be in the situation you’re in, you would probably not choose to be there. Eric Flanders: And so it’s not your fault. You’re not doing anything wrong. And to go out and live your life the way you want to live it, no matter how hard it is to just do it. And. Especially do it those nights where it’s rough sleep. Go out the next day and do everything that you planned on doing. Eric Flanders: If you’re avoiding doing things, go do them. And it will be okay. It will be okay. You will, you’ll convince yourself that it’s gonna be okay by showing yourself it’s gonna be okay. Martin Reed: All right. Well, I think that’s a great note to end on. So thanks again, Eric, for taking the time to come onto the podcast. Eric Flanders: Yeah, I appreciate your time, Martin. Have a great night. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Gerry struggled with sleep for decades. The more he struggled, the more effort he put into sleep and the more effort he put into sleep, the more he struggled. Eventually, Gerry realized that trying to make sleep happen was only making things even more difficult. With this realization, Gerry changed his approach. Instead of trying to force sleep, he practiced being kinder to himself when insomnia showed up. He practiced experiencing wakefulness and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that can come with it with less struggle by being more of an observer of those things rather than an opponent of them. Gerry also practiced mindfulness to help build skill in being more present when insomnia and all the difficult stuff that comes with it tried to sweep him away. Today, Gerry is not only sleeping better but — because he is less tangled up in an ongoing struggle — he is enjoying an improved quality of life. Sleep has become a natural part of his daily routine, rather than a challenge to overcome. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, so Gerry, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Gerry: You’re welcome. Glad to be here. Martin: It’s great to have you on. Let’s just start right at the beginning. If you can just tell us a little bit more about when your issues with sleep first began and what you think might have caused those initial issues with sleep. Gerry: Well, it started when I was 27. I was in my, was it first year? No, second year of law school, and the year before was the first time that trying as hard as I could and not succeeding happened. In other words, I tried really hard, but law school, there’s a lot of really smart people in law school and my grades weren’t that great, and it seems to, in retrospect, have taken about a year to sink in to the point where the insomnia started kicking in. What I’m getting at is that I really started wondering if I was going to make it. No. No, I’m sorry, it actually started the beginning of third year when… Yeah. Yeah, I was actually almost barely on probation for academics, and so I thought, “Oh my God, I could get kicked out. I could fail at this.” And it just really rocked my world. I grew up thinking that I had to produce to be worth keeping around, and when I saw myself not producing, I really wondered where that was going to be going. I was reminded often when I was growing up that you better toe the line or there could be really some serious consequences. I was threatened to be kicked out of the house and whatnot, so things really started to… I really felt like my world was starting to fall apart. I caution people though when I’m talking on the Insomnia Forum, because if they pick up on the fact that that was quite a while ago, and I guess this is a video, you can see I’m pretty far north of 27, I’ll be 72 here in a couple months, and I want to caution people to not think, “Oh my God, I’m going to be condemned to 40 plus years of insomnia.” That’s not the case at all. I just happened to have some really serious childhood trauma I had to deal with and didn’t deal with it for many years, and so there was a lot of excavating that I had to do, so I don’t think anybody that is having a bout of insomnia ought to just totally freak out and think that they’re condemned to the rest of their life like that. In any event, that’s how it started. And then as it turned out, I graduated from law school and got a job and so on, and had some… Got kicked around like everybody does in life, but made it. I just kept plugging away and made it, but the insomnia, as we talked about in the forum, took on a life of its own. And so just because I graduated from law school and got a job didn’t mean it just went away. In any event, that’s how it started. Martin: Did you find that… Obviously you were going through a lot of pressure, there was a lot on your plate, so we often see some sleep disruption connected to that. Did you find that as you were working really hard to try to get through law school, do well in your career, were you also applying that same effort to sleep? Did you feel that you were putting pressure on yourself to fix sleep, to make sleep happen, or was that just purely this mystery byproduct of all the stress that you were under in other areas of your life? Gerry: Oh, I made sleeping better a big project. It took me a long time to get to the point where I realized that trying harder wasn’t going to work. Trying harder in law school… Well, once I focused a little better and used better techniques, the increased effort there helped. Not that I wasn’t trying hard before, but I think it’s clear that trying harder to sleep better just doesn’t work, but yeah, I went through the whole ball of wax. Over the counter medications, seeing doctors. Well, and certainly worrying about it, trying to think my way toward better sleep, trying to rationalize there’s no reason this should be happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Yeah, I tried a lot of things and some of the things worked to some extent, basic sleep hygiene, don’t drink coffee at midnight and whatnot, but in retrospect, I since see it was a wasted effort in this, trying to make a project of getting to sleep. Building a house is one thing, you plan, you got to do the foundation and you got to put the framing, the electrical and whatnot, or hire people that know what they’re doing, but it doesn’t work here. That I know. Martin: And no matter how well you build that house, there might still be an earthquake. Gerry: Well, that’s also true. Yeah. Martin: It’s so interesting hearing you talk about that, that trying, how you made sleep a project, because I think our minds can really play tricks on us. We’ve all got this human brain that’s just wired to problem solve and to look out for us. Its main job is to look out for us. Any obstacles, any threats, whether they’re real, imagined, predicted, even in the past, it’s going to fire up to protect us and troubleshoot, and so when we’re experiencing some sleep disruption, obviously it’s going to fire up and look out for us and give us all these suggestions for things we can do. Let’s research. Let’s try a supplement. Let’s try a medication. Let’s try meditation. Whatever. There’s millions and millions of things that we can try, and I think sometimes we can get a little bit bit trapped, a little bit caught up, a little bit stuck because we can try all these things and listening to our brain that’s generally guided us pretty well through life, so we’re listening to what it’s having to tell us. We try everything it suggests, and our experience might be showing that all these things we’re doing, all these things we’re trying aren’t working, but then our brain is still there being like, “Well, okay, do that stuff again, but try harder.” It runs out of ideas at a certain point, so then we end up putting even more pressure on ourselves doing these things, understandably, that our experience is telling us are keeping us a little bit stuck, but our mind is just like, “Keep doing it. Keep doing it, but try harder.” And then we put even more pressure on ourselves. Was that akin to your own experience? Gerry: Oh, very much so. Yeah, very much so. I don’t know culturally if it’s worldwide, I always thought… I read a while ago that this sort of thing can be a real kicker for Americans that think that maybe the positive side of the American mystique or whatever is a can-do attitude, which can be a good thing. Hey, we can get this done, or maybe I’m just talking about my older generation, whatever. But anyway, I was always brought up with the idea that, hey, we can get this done. And that’s true for a lot of things, but it doesn’t work here. In fact, I think it’s counterproductive because after a while I saw myself as a failure in terms of insomnia. I saw this thing as a monster. It’s way bigger than I am. I can’t deal with it. I’m beat, and that’s not a good place to be. I found at times where I could lapse into a pretty serious depression. I had to deal with that. I had a serious psychiatric disorder as in got hospitalized for it. I checked into a 30-day voluntary inpatient for that, and that helped a lot, but it wasn’t like everything’s peachy keen after that. That was 30 years ago, but what I did find out was ways to recognize it happening, and when it comes to insomnia, what I find is that… And I can still do this, I did this early this morning when I woke up too early. I can find myself… It’s very easy to start going down that rabbit hole and real depressive rumination, and I am pretty well adept at recognizing it now, and I know that… I think that people that find themselves in that space and they just can’t seem to get out of it for a couple weeks and all they can think about is suicide or whatever, it’s definitely a time to get some professional help. But yeah, it can really do a number on you. It really can. Martin: Something you touched upon there is we can be really hard on ourselves when we’re going through this difficult stuff. That brain fires up again and starts telling you, “Well, maybe you’re not trying hard enough. Why can’t you fix this? Why can everyone else make sleep happen but you can’t? You are a failure. You can’t achieve this, you can’t do that.” And that doesn’t really make things any easier, does it? I think it takes effort and intent, intention, real intention to actually be kind to ourselves when all this difficult stuff shows up. Gerry: Yeah, I totally agree. I’ve been reading something about this idea of self-compassion and that ironically, a lot of people that are the more compassionate toward others are hardest on themselves apparently, the research is showing that the… Well, for example, today I find myself looking at the stuff on my plate, we’re doing this podcast and then I’m going to do a choir practice at 6:30. I’m lucky right now I’m retired, so I don’t have as many things on my plate, but still, even if I had more, I would think I would look at, okay, what do I absolutely have to do today? And then try to work with that and then even talk to people that I’m working with that, well, maybe I’m not sleeping that great, but let’s see what we can do. And I don’t feel like I… Well, like anybody, I’ve got a bunch… Even retired, I’ve got a bunch of stuff on a to-do list, but I’m not going to beat myself up if I don’t do a whole bunch of it today. That said, I agree with you on your prior comments about don’t let the insomnia rule your life to the point where I’m going to… Oh, I’m just not going to do this, this, or any of those things because I’m just… Well, I have insomnia, therefore I’m just going to drop out of life. It’s a balance of not dropping out, but on the other hand, not working myself to the bone and beating myself up. Yeah, I think it’s just like if you have a really bad cold, maybe you can ease up and be able to have some chicken soup or something that maybe if you’re… I didn’t sleep all that great last night, or even for a few nights, to realize that, hey, I’m going to do the best I can. And that’s it. Just give it your best. But yeah, just don’t beat yourself up. I did that for a long time. I’ve got to get over this. I’ve just got to do this, I’ve got to do this, and then actually, I had migraines even before insomnia, and they probably, for the longest time I didn’t get both on the same day, but after a while, and I think it was probably from beating myself up year to year to year and just getting worn out, after a while I started getting both at the same time and it just makes it worse. Yeah, definitely go easy. Yeah, I’m sorry if I’m rambling. Martin: You’re not rambling at all. It makes my job a lot easier because I prefer to hear my guests talk rather than myself, and I’m sure my audience probably prefers… They’re probably a bit tired of my voice too. If we reflect back on sleep itself, that struggle with sleep, what was an average night like? Was it difficulty falling asleep? Would you just regularly wake up during the night and find it hard to fall back to sleep? It was a combination of both? What was your actual experience with the nights like? Gerry: Oh, my typical one has always been early morning awakening. I generally just about always can get to sleep right away and then try not to watch the clock too much, but over the years, it looks like if I’d wake up after about four hours, three to four… Well, about four, maybe four and a half, and then not be able to get back to sleep. And last night it was a little bit more than that, I probably got about three hours, but yeah, it’s definitely early morning awakening, which I know is a clinical sign of depression. I think for me, I don’t see myself as really depressed anymore, but I think maybe… I’m not a neurologist or anything, but I suspect that there’s probably a neural pathway that got ground in there that some people are predisposed to whatever little ailment. Maybe mine is just predisposed to this. Sometimes it’s just not going to sleep, maybe it’s just a bad habit I picked up and I obviously rather wasn’t there anymore, but I don’t have to make a huge deal out of it. And sometimes I can recognize that there was a situational insomnia, last night I woke up… Sometimes I’ll wake up and realize there’s really something on my mind, and last night it was a… I’ve had a couple of social events that got canceled just because of any COVID outbreaks, and I was just bummed out about that a little bit. And then you think, “Okay, well, I’ll resolve that,” but then now I’m awake and then… But I try not to… One thing I learned over the years is just don’t toss, and for me, I just don’t toss and turn and go, “Oh my God, I can’t believe I… Why can’t I get back to sleep?” And just staying there. I just get up and go downstairs and play guitar quietly and not wake up my wife, hopefully. Martin: It sounds like there’s difference in your approach there, so now maybe you’re doing something else with that time when you’re awake instead of tossing and turning. Gerry: Yeah, it went back and forth because I thought, “Well, gee, if you get too efficient, I might think, “Gee, this is my time. I think I’m going to automatically wake up now so I can have this quiet time.” But I don’t think that’s been an issue. Instead, for me, it’s been… I felt better during the day knowing that… Not to sound too accomplishment-oriented to an extreme, but well, I use the example of guitar. For me, I really want to learn it, and I’ve found that to really get there, for me, there’ve got to be times when I’ve got to do it even though I don’t want to. And so if I can get some time in during the morning, great, and okay, okay, okay, if I didn’t get enough sleep and I do it, then fine. But I just feel better by say, here we are mid-morning, and I just feel better that I played earlier rather than just stare out the window and mope about how I can’t sleep and my life is shit and just spinning nowhere. And that would just make it worse, so I feel better just getting up and doing stuff. Martin: What’s the difference here? Back when you were still really tangled up in the struggle, how was your approach different then? You mentioned tossing and turning and battling with your mind, things like that. How would you respond to that wakefulness in the past, and how is that different to how you generally respond to it now? Gerry: Well, back then, for a long time, I think of all those years, slow learner I guess, but I saw it… Well, I was working, and so I had to keep my job, do the best I could to do that, and so I saw it as more of a endurance contest. And I was in my late 20s, 30s, 40s, and I guess had more energy than I do now, but I just saw it as something I just got to suck up and just get done. And now I find myself a little bit more easy going about it, and that’s not always the case. I can find myself reverting back to letting the thoughts just go crazy and the thoughts will just be zipping through there about the more negative ones, and I’ve got to get over this and that sort of thing. But for the most part, I’ve gotten to just more of a place of… I don’t want to say giving up with it, but living with it like… Oh, I don’t know. Well, maybe it’s akin to… I got a little bit of arthritis and instead of just giving up and saying, “Well, I just can’t deal with this,” and, “Oh my God, this hurts,” just getting up and doing the best you can and just not letting it run my life. Martin: Would you say that’s acknowledgement, acknowledging the presence of stuff that turns up that’s really difficult? Maybe acknowledging difficult stuff that we can’t control rather than getting tangled up trying to control the difficult stuff that we wish was gone, but we probably realize that we can’t directly control it? At least maybe our experience suggests that. Gerry: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. I think I’ve gotten to more, not giving up on it or anything like that, but more of a, well, life’s difficult. Everybody’s got something. My foot’s sore sometimes from arthritis. Well, what are you going to do? I have that attitude, so like, “Well, what are you going to do?” Martin: I think this is sometimes where we can get a bit tripped up when we hear the word acceptance because it’s quite easy to confuse acceptance with just throwing in the towel, giving up on everything, admitting defeat, resignation. But really I think acceptance in some circumstances can be quite empowering, quite liberating, because it can free us from a struggle. For example, if we have something that we can’t really control, let’s say for example, arthritis, like you mentioned, we can either throw in the towel and withdraw from life and cancel everything that adds meaning to our life and really try somehow to battle it, to fix it, which might to some extent be helpful, but at the same time, it probably can’t be directly solved just by our own efforts. Acceptance might just involve just accepting that there is going to be some difficult stuff that we cannot control, so it’s more to do with accepting that there’s stuff out there that’s difficult that we can’t control rather than just accepting this is something I have to suffer with. And I think that’s the difference. Gerry: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And also, I don’t want to get into this ongoing constant battle with arthritis or insomnia or something where it just runs my life. Martin: And I think it’s so linked to what we were talking about a little bit earlier, about that kindness, as being kind to ourselves too, in addition to accepting that this is present, that we might not be able to control it, being kind to ourselves and not being mean to ourselves and making it even more difficult. Gerry: Yeah, I agree. Totally. Yeah. And I have to remind myself about that, being kind to yourself. I tell that to other people, but I have to remind myself. Martin: You mentioned that back in the day when things were really difficult, lots of tossing and turning when you’d wake during the night, lots of pressure, putting pressure on yourself to sleep. Our brains make that link, especially if we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to perform during the day, we make this link, I’ve got to perform well at night, I’ve got to sleep well in order to perform well during the day. And that’s one of those intentions or efforts that can make things more difficult because as you know from experience, sleep doesn’t respond well to effort. The more we try to make it happen, the more difficult it usually becomes. Something we touched upon earlier, and that I’m keen to explore with you a little bit further, is that role of that brain, that human brain and all the thoughts and the feelings it can generate. And this is one reason why I really wanted to get you on the podcast, is you’re so active in the forum, offering some great advice and support to other people out there, and a common theme that you talk about is this role of our thoughts and how when we’re struggling, all these difficult thoughts and feelings are going to turn up. And although we can’t really control those thoughts and feelings, they’re going to show up no matter what, we can choose how we respond to them. And I think that’s key really because our response to them determines whether we are engaged in a workable response or an unworkable response. What have you found is a workable way of responding to all the difficult thoughts and feelings that can show up during and even after difficult nights? Gerry: What I found over time was that indeed they’re just thoughts, and so all those thoughts those are branches going by in the river and just sitting by the riverbank and just watching them go. They’re not pleasant, but just watching them drift on by. Instead of jumping in the river and trying to wrestle with them and try to work them out and try to rationalize with them. It’s just drifting on by. I can acknowledge the thought, I don’t deny it, but I don’t have to react to it. I don’t have to freak out about it all over again for the 50 millionth time. And I still have times where I goof and forget that and go down the thought train and I might find myself in the river and going around the bend and then I hit a log and then realize, “Oh, whoa, here I am in the river.” And then I get out of the river and try to dry myself off and go, “Okay, well, that was a bummer, but we’re through that and we realized that happened a long time ago, and here we are right now and I’m going to get on my bike later today.” Or we got a fun project at work to do, and that’s going right now. Let’s go with that. Martin: What your response comes down to, if I just were to sum it up, is it started with acknowledging so you acknowledge the presence of that thought rather than just immediately trying to push it away or trying to avoid it from even turning up in the first place. Being more of an observer of it, being maybe a little bit more curious about its presence rather than putting on a big suit of armor in its presence and being kind to yourself in return, because a lot of this stuff is really difficult. I think you’ve touched upon this in the past that when you first hear this phrase from all the gurus that thoughts are just thoughts, it can be quite offensive because these thoughts are difficult and they’re real. But when we practice and when we practice acknowledging them, observing them and being kind to them, we can get a little bit distance from those thoughts so we can recognize that they are there, they are present, but that’s what they are, they’re thoughts. They’re separate from us, they aren’t us. They’re thoughts that we’re experiencing. Gerry: Yeah, I’ve gotten to the point now where I’m pretty good at not getting into the, oh, I’m going to get rid of that thought because that’s a conscious thought that I can recognize fairly quickly that no, that’s not going to work. But as far as getting caught up in thoughts, that can still happen for sure. If it’s just really powerful, you just get gobsmacked, and I have ones that just will just wham, even from years ago. All of a sudden it just hits that hard and it can take a while. Maybe it’s akin to being in a martial arts match or boxing or something, and man, you just get hit and for a second there you’re not really sure what’s going on. And so it can rock my world a little bit, but I find that with some practice it’s not too long. I might find myself in that river, but not in the river too long before I go, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. No, this isn’t working. I’m getting jacked around here.” Yeah. Martin: Yeah, that is such an important point, I’m really glad you made it, that none of us get to, I don’t think at least that anyone gets to this guru level where we don’t deal with difficult thoughts, where we don’t get caught up in the struggle with them again. Even if we are practicing for years moving away from struggling with them, every now and then we are going to find ourselves dropping into that river, as you put it, getting swept away, and I think that’s normal part of being a human being. What matters is the more we practice, the more we’re able to notice when that’s happening, and… Maybe not the easier it is, but the more skill we have in noting when it’s happening and refocusing our attention and bringing ourselves back so we don’t quite get tangled up in that big struggle quite so fast. Gerry: Yeah. Yeah, I think if anybody’s thinking, if I can just get to the point I have total serenity, I’m going to be at total peace, I’m going to sleep well, nothing’s going to ever bother me, no, that’s not going to happen. Not on this earth. I’ve never met the Dalai Lama, but I doubt very much he would say that everything is just peachy keen for me all the time. Martin: It’s really interesting because as human beings, I don’t know whether we are hardwired or it’s culturally ingrained upon us, just this pursuit of happiness, we should be happy all of the time. We shouldn’t feel fear, we shouldn’t feel worry, anxiety, stress, anger, frustration, so we’re taught that we should only experience one emotion, one feeling, and that everything else, that implies that everything else that comes with being a human being, all the other thoughts, feelings and emotions are somehow wrong, that we have to get rid of them. We are hardwired to struggle with all this difficult stuff, so it does take a lot of practice to understand or to acknowledge or just to realize that that’s normal, being a human being, doing things that matter comes with difficult thoughts, feelings and emotions. Happiness is just a transitory state and we can’t reach any moments of happiness without some struggle along the way. Gerry: Yeah, true. I think that’s true. Martin: I think that’s a great summary of your changing your relationship with your thoughts. One from where there was understandably that big attempt to control, to fight, to avoid, which consumes all of our energy, our focus and attention, and can make things more difficult, more to a place where we practice, maybe not always achieve, but we practice acknowledging our thoughts, being more of an observer of them, being kind to ourselves when they show up, and responding to them in a way that’s maybe more workable. Where we do things that matter to us even when they’re present. And these don’t have to be huge things. They’re just things that are important to us that represent who we are, who we want to be, kind of life we want to live. Because I think with repeated practice, when we just continue to do that, then we’re still living the life we want to live even when this difficult stuff is present, and that in turn might help reduce the influence of all this difficult stuff, or at least reduce the focus of all that difficult stuff. It’s like looking at our difficulties through a magnifying glass. It’s hard to see anything else when we are looking through a magnifying glass. If you can practice putting the magnifying glass down, that stuff we were looking at is still there, but now we’ve got this whole field of vision around us and we might recognize that there’s more available to us, more things to do and more that makes up our world than just what was once visible through that magnifying glass. Gerry: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think it’s so easy to get too focused on stuff, maybe too much media consumption or social media or something, just getting down a rabbit hole of negativity or getting on Instagram or Facebook or whatever where it looks like everybody’s just… Everyone else is just doing great when they’re all probably looking at it thinking everybody else is just doing great, and I’m not. These illusions, and maybe there’s something in our culture that’s like, “Well, I should be happier, or what’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with everything that I’m not happy?” And well, there’s good and evil in the world, and it’s a hard world. It’s also a beautiful world, and I can acknowledge both. Martin: Something else that can maybe set us up for a little bit more difficulty with the difficulties that come with being a human being is the kind of sharing culture that we have mainly online, so like social media, social networks and stuff where we have friends or acquaintances and we’re scrolling through our feed and everyone’s posting pictures of themselves smiling on vacation or with their kids or with a new car. And everyone’s obviously posting content that reflects happiness or where they would like to be in life, but the truth is that can lead to a bit of a distorted view, like you touched upon. We can then believe that everyone around us has got this great life, they’re not dealing with any struggles, there’s no pain or difficulty just because it’s constantly reinforced through where a lot of us spend a lot of our time on these devices. We’re just seeing everyone else that we know having this great life, but the truth is no one really posts about their struggles and all the difficult stuff. We generally post when we’re having a good time. Gerry: They’re not telling you about the surly kid at home or getting laid off or the hassles at the grocery store, and I can’t find this or that, or my car broke down, but it’s all happening. Martin: Yeah, exactly. It’s all happening behind the scenes, and I think that… I wonder if that might even just be an act of self-kindness, just recognizing that it’s not unusual or abnormal to be finding things difficult. It’s almost a guarantee that everyone you interact with each day is dealing with their own struggles too. I don’t think there’s anyone out there that’s got a perfect life, 100% happiness I don’t think is an achievable feat. Gerry: No. Martin: One thing that I think that might be a bit of a theme to what we’ve been talking about, and I’m curious to hear your take on this because it’s something you’ve mentioned a few times in the Insomnia Coach Forum, is mindfulness. And you touched upon sometimes it can feel like it’s a bit of a fad, even though it’s actually been around for a long time and a lot of people have some confusion about it as a result, like what is mindfulness? What does it mean? What’s the goal of it? Can you tell us about what you feel mindfulness is and how it’s helped you? Gerry: I think mindfulness has to do with just being aware of the present moment, and by itself, it just sounds kind of weird. I even have a friend who’s a mental health therapist herself, but she just thinks, “Ooh, that just sounds woo woo, and what’s that got to do with anything?” Just the fact that I’m aware of that this fingertip is touching this thumb or something like that. What’s that got to do with anything? But the best thing I can think of is, well, you can either be focused on the present or the past or the future, and so where are you going to be? I can be ruminating about the past or reliving the past a lot, not to say you don’t think about memory sometimes, but I can live in the past or I can be in the future. And there’s lots of ways to get anxious about that because we don’t know what’s going to happen, and meanwhile, miss the present. Oh, it’s been attributed to John Lennon, probably some other people too, but life is what’s happening while you’re busy making other plans, and there’s just a lot going on in present life, and so for me, what I try to do is, yeah, I do some practice, listen to some meditation tapes. I’ve got some favorite sites and I have sometimes listed some, and I tell people that if you get on there and you find somebody you’re just not really… It’s just not working for you. Don’t just say, “Well, to hell with mindfulness.” No. Instead, just look around and… It’s almost like music, such and such musician, you resonate more with this artist or that. But it’s just a way of just appreciating the present. Like right now, I’m just looking out over the screen here and seeing this beautiful flower in our yard, and I’m not going to leave our podcast now and just focus totally on that, but I’m just noticing that just for a second. When it comes down to the actual practice, it’s really trying to just be aware of what’s going on right now, whether it’s my body or what thoughts are going through in my mind. I’m not trying to force anything out, I’m not trying to think happy thoughts, I’m just being aware, and it’s hard to put in words. It’s almost like I found this… I even have a note in my dresser and it refers to both mindfulness and guitar. I can think about it, watch videos about it, read about it, talk about it, or I can do it, and at some point it comes down to just doing it and to really try to get a feel for what it can bring. For me, what it brings is, especially in difficult moments, realizing that, okay, what’s going on right now is I have to do maybe X, but it doesn’t mean I have to do X, Y, Z and everything all at… Life doesn’t have to be a flood that I have to deal with everything right now, just what’s going on right now. Life doesn’t seem so as overwhelming, I can say that, and life can also be more fuller. Instead of driving home and realizing that I can’t really tell you a thing that I’ve seen from point A to point B and getting home and not even realizing anything, instead just being able to appreciate where I am or even little basic things, like I can find that I really appreciate the fact that I’m healthy, that I can move, that I own this car. Martin: Where I feel that mindfulness can be really helpful, just as you described, is our minds like to time travel, so I’ll just use one of my own examples. Kind of like yesterday, had a lot of podcasts to prepare for, I had to call the bank, I had to do all the other stuff that comes with being a parent, working, being a human being, and I felt the heart racing. I felt really tight and stressed, and that’s because really what my mind was doing, it wasn’t focusing on, okay, right now I have to work on this. It was thinking, “Oh, but then I’ve got to do this, this, this, this, this.” I was getting stressed about something that hasn’t happened yet, it’s in the future, so it doesn’t even exist. And the fact of the matter is the task that I was working on at that moment is the same task whether I had 20 other things to do after it or zero things to do after it, but if there were zero things to do after it, I would be doing that task, just my mind would be traveling thinking, “Oh, I can relax after this, do whatever I want,” but instead my mind was like, “Oh, but then you’ve got to do this, this, this, this, this, this.” And one thing that mindfulness can help us do is keep us a little bit more present or at least to notice when our mind starts to time travel and bring us back to the present, help refocus our attention. Gerry: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I can give you an example of my own. Lately I’ve found that I’ll wake up in the middle of the night and I’ll wake up, my mouth will be kind of dry, my neck is a little sore, and so I go in the other room and I lay down and I find, and I just… Okay, I am awake and I’m walking into the other room and I’m laying down, and now I’m stretching my neck to the left, now I’m stretching to the right, and instead of ruminating, oh my God, I wonder if I’ll get back to sleep, what’s going to be like tomorrow? When’s this ever going to end, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Instead, I find myself just focusing on the present and with practice I find that I can do this a little bit more, not always perfectly, but just stretching this way and then going back to bed and then laying there and realize, “Okay, I’m just laying here and I’m just breathing.” I can feel myself breathing. I can feel the pillow. Totally in the present. And I’m just going to do this and just do that instead of, oh my God, I wonder if I’ll get back to sleep. And it doesn’t always work. Sometimes I don’t get back to sleep and it’s like, “Oh, well, I wish I did, but okay.” And then just focusing on, okay, now I’m going to get up and I’m going to do this, and just being… Yeah, and just… It’s nothing really fancy or earth-shattering or anything, it’s just… Yeah, it’s just like where are you going to be? Are you going to be in the present, the past or the future? You pick. Martin: And the mind still wanders anyway, right? Gerry: Oh yeah. Martin: Especially if we are new to this practice, so we might be like, “Okay, this sounds like something I could try and experiment with,” so next time, let’s say whether you’re lying in bed or if it’s just a moment during the day when you’re getting really distracted or you find your mind time traveling- Gerry: Yeah, my mind will be wandering, like I say, when I’m stretching there or I’m laying back in bed, the thought might be going through my mind and I’ll find myself saying, “Oh, I’m having the thought that I might not get back to sleep, and it’s just going to be a real bummer, and…” Well, there’s the thought going by and then try not to glob onto that thought, just let it drift on by. Martin: It comes down to that control. The mind is still going to wander off. What we are doing is just looking to practice bringing it back to the present again, because it’s always going to drift off to the future or the past away from right now. Gerry: Yeah, and don’t beat yourself up when it wanders, like, “Oh my God, I’m really a bad meditator. What a flop I am.” No, it’s going to do that. Our minds wander for reasons that drive us crazy like we’ve been talking about, or they can lead to really creativity. I read somewhere where the guy that came up with what, silicon chips or something, it’s just the idea popped into his head when he was taking a shower. What kind of thought that was, I have the slightest idea how anybody could think of that, but apparently he wasn’t consciously thinking about it, he was just taking a shower and all of a sudden this idea popped into his head, so go figure. Martin: Going back to these themes of mindfulness where you said one of them is the time traveling, being more present, noticing when our mind is time traveling, just bringing it back to the present moment with kindness and recognizing that just because you brought it back once, it doesn’t mean it’s going to stay there. It’s going to drift off, especially if you’re new to this. This is a skill and no one ever is able to keep their mind anchored 100% percent in the present 100% of the time. It is something that requires ongoing practice, but another benefit you touched upon or another part of mindfulness, another benefit of mindfulness is the brain likes to run on autopilot a lot of the time. You gave the example like if we’re driving a car. We can just be driving along, before we know it half an hour has gone by, we can’t remember what the speed limit is. When we are noticing ourselves on autopilot, we miss out on stuff, and so when things are difficult, when we’re struggling, it can feel as though that’s the only thing that’s present. But like you just mentioned, you’d notice just in the background, out the window there was this beautiful flower. These things can seem quite small and insignificant, but the more skill we can gain through practice of just noticing the good stuff around us, disengaging autopilot when we find that we’re doing stuff without really thinking about it, can really open us up to more of the good stuff that’s also present even when the difficult stuff is present with us too. Gerry: Yeah, you’re going to be having a really tough day and gulping down coffee and not really noticing it or be having a really tough day, but still noticing, wow, this coffee tastes really good, so at least there’s a little bit of bright spot if you can notice it. But it’s there. It’s there. Martin: And it’s amazing what’s out there, and I think children are great at this. Children are experts in this. They want to… You take a child out for a walk, they want to look at every rock, look at every leaf, and there are limits to this. As adults, we do still have to get stuff done, we can’t just be walking around in a philosophy of amazement, wonder and curiosity all of the time, but maybe if we can just take a little bit of that childhood magic with us and just stop every now and then and just notice what’s around us. Is there anything we’re missing out on? Gerry: And not to mention learning from kids, relearning from kids about sleep because kids are doing all that stuff and then after a while they just conk out. They don’t sit and think, “Well, I really hope I can get to sleep,” or, “What should I do to sleep?” And thinking it through and… They just conk out. Martin: Exactly. Yeah, there is a lot, and as a parent, I learn a lot from my kids every single day. It is quite amazing how much of those childhood insights we lose as we get older. We obviously gain a lot, but we also can lose a lot as well. Gerry: Yeah. Yeah. Martin: Well, Gerry, I really appreciate the time you’ve taken out your day to come on. I really like the way we really dug into the thought processes that can be involved when we are struggling with insomnia and how we can easily get caught up in a battle with them that can make things maybe more difficult and how there is an alternative approach that can help us move away from the struggle, but that’s that’s not something that’s easy. It does require ongoing practice and just being kind to yourself when things are difficult. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening to this conversation, listening to your great insights that you’ve shared, but they feel like I’m that person, I’ve tried everything, I’m just beyond help, I’m just never going to be able to move away from struggling with insomnia, what would you say to them? Gerry: Right now you’re having these thoughts that I’m stuck, I’m never going to get better. I realize that’s a really powerful thought and I can understand where you would be coming from, how that thought would develop and lodge into your brain because of all, unfortunate, the suffering you’ve had. But I can’t emphasize enough that the thought is powerful, I totally acknowledge that, but as hard as it might seem to acknowledge, I can tell you the thought is not true. It’s not true. You’re not stuck, you’re not condemned to it. Going back to that thing about the kid that conks out. Over time, if you don’t eat… You’re not hungry right now, say, but over time, eventually you’re going to get hungry and over time you’re going to fall asleep. If you say, “I just can’t sleep, I can’t sleep,” well, you will acknowledge that you can’t just get in your car and try to drive across the United States. And you know eventually you’re going to fall asleep at the wheel. And so the things that say I can’t sleep, your brain is… I know that’s a powerful thought, but it’s simply not true, and if you can try to give yourself a break, maybe realize that, hey, I’ve really been working hard on this, I’ve really been trying, but maybe if I can not take my thoughts so seriously, even though they seem like they must be true because they’re so powerful, but if I can acknowledge that sleep is a natural process and that therefore something is getting in the way, and you know what, it could be that the thing that’s in my way is my thinking that I can’t sleep, that I am stuck, that there’s nothing I can do, that I’m a failure, that this is my life and my life is hell, and I wish I was dead and so on and so on. Believe me, I’ve been there and it’s easier said than done, and no, it’s not perfect, and like I said earlier in the podcast, turned out I didn’t sleep that great last night, but hang in there and also realize you’re not alone. A lot of it, there’s millions any given night. Last night probably in the US alone, there was probably what, 20, 30 million people easy that didn’t sleep that well. A lot of us are walking around kind of blitzed, we could use some more sleep. You’re not alone, and this isn’t a death sentence or a life sentence to insomnia. Things can get better. I would really urge you to stick with… Well, the Insomnia Forum, and see what people are going through and get some tips and share some ideas, and Martin’s podcasts, emails and whatnot. And things can get better. If this sounds like just some sort of goody two shoes pep talk, it’s not. We all have different journeys, but on the other hand, there are some similarities, and I think that I’ve got a pretty good idea what your… In this part of your journey, I got a pretty good idea what that is like because it’s tough, it is tough. And maybe also give yourself credit. Here you are, you’re still here, and you’re not alone. You’re not alone. Martin: I think that’s a great note to end on, Gerry, so thank you again for taking the time to come out onto the podcast and to share your thoughts, your insights, and your experiences. Really appreciated. Gerry: Well, thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

As a business owner, Anne-Claire began overextending herself and her sleep started to suffer. She reduced her workload and experimented with supplements and medication but her sleep seemed to get even worse. After deciding that she didn’t want to continue using medication, Anne-Claire began to explore whether changing her approach to sleep and her response to insomnia might be helpful. Like most people, Anne-Claire had tried to fight or avoid the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with insomnia — and this got her tangled up in more of a struggle with them. In a change of approach, Anne-Claire began making space for them to exist. She would greet and welcome her thoughts (even the difficult ones). She practiced being more of an observer of them, rather than an opponent of them. As she did that she realized that many of the thoughts her mind generated didn’t match her own experience. This helped her realize that there was no need to battle with her mind — that her mind will generate all kinds of thoughts and feelings, some of which might be true, some of which might not be true. Some of which might be helpful and some of which might not be helpful. As she started to implement and practice new habits, Anne-Claire also realized that the more effort she put into sleep, the more difficult it became. She found that by maintaining a consistent out of bed time in the morning, regardless of how she slept, she was better able to do things that mattered and she was more likely to experience better sleep on subsequent nights. She also discovered that comparing her sleep to anyone else’s or trying to achieve a certain amount or type of sleep was not helpful and was likely to pull her back into a struggle. Today, Anne-Claire no longer struggles with sleep. Thanks to her willingness to experience insomnia, sleep has — once again — become effortless. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin Reed: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin Reed: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin Reed: Okay. Anne-Claire, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Anne-Claire France: My pleasure. My pleasure. Very much. Martin Reed: Can you tell us a little bit more about when your sleep problems first began and what you think might have caused those initial issues with sleep? Anne-Claire France: I think they began right around 2015, and I think the primary cause was, I’m kind of an overachiever. And I run my own business and I overextended myself and had way too much going on. And so I, in order to be able to meet my standards of what I wanted to do for my clients, I was doing a lot of long nighters, all-nighters, all that kind of stuff. And I’m an analytical type of person, so I was always thinking about what was going on and not really taking a lot of time to give my mind a break. Even when I was trying to rest. So I think a lot of the time while I was in that sort of overextended time period, I was just almost recalibrating my body clock. And without knowing that I was doing that. And then when it was sort of waning, I just wasn’t able to get back onto something normal. And of course life intervenes all the time. So you start thinking about lots of stuff and I was just sort of hyperaroused more than I probably should have been. And so that just carried on for quite some time and then I realized I probably needed to be doing something different. I’ve always been a light sleeper, but I could sleep. And so sound would bother me and things like that. But that was easy to take care of. But no matter what was going on, I usually would get enough sleep and I was not one to think, oh, I need 12 hours or 8 hours. It was just, what do I need to feel good? And I’d say that… I mean, I did certainly have some sleep issues probably in 2010, 2011. So when I went through menopause. There was all those kinds of physiological things that were going on, but I could attribute them to that. And then in about 2015, as I mentioned, when I really overextended myself and was just burning the midnight oil all the time and not really resting and keeping my mind going all the time, and then being sort of the one people look to in the family to solve all that as well. I mean, it was just sort of go, go, go. And I just felt like I needed to be doing all those things and really neglected being on any sort of set schedule other than accomplish, accomplish, accomplish. And so once all that sort of died down a little bit and I could really get back onto more of a regular schedule, I think I had completely recalibrated my body clock. And I didn’t understand what all that meant. And so when it was time to sleep and I was still thinking about things or, why can’t I sleep? Which would also require me to be thinking more about, well, what do I need to do in order to sleep? Which of course wasn’t helpful at all to be doing anything to try to fall asleep. And I did try several things by the time I reached out to you, I believe in 2020. Martin Reed: There’s lots of great stuff there. Just to unpack it a little bit. It sounds like you kind of attribute a lot of the initial sleep disruption to that really busy, stressful lifestyle that some of us have. And that also I think some of us are just that high achiever personality. We put a lot of pressure on ourselves to perform all the time. What we would usually expect to see, if we weren’t talking about insomnia, we were just talking about life and stress and all that stuff that gets in the way is when we’re able to take a step back and maybe a little bit less of burning the candle at both ends, then everything will get back on track again. We can just expect sleep to just kind of take over and go back to the good old days the way it was. But as you were describing, when you were able to take a step back and have less pressure in your life, the sleep kind of didn’t seem to get on track. Did I hear you right? Was that what your experience was like? Anne-Claire France: That’s correct. That’s correct. And so I felt like I probably needed to go see somebody. Or there’s something wrong with me. Or something like that. And so I went to see my primary care physician who also does a lot of homeopathic types of things. And so she said, “Well, let’s try some supplements.” And things like that. And I can’t even tell you. I mean, there was the usuals like melatonin and stuff, and valerian. And there were some other ones that didn’t work at all. But I think in looking back, I was sort of putting all my hope in the particular supplement in sort of being something like magic. As opposed to me making any changes in my behavior. And so that went on for some time, which was very frustrating. And then I ended up getting to the point where I was so sleep deprived, I mean, really sleep deprived. There were many nights I would go with zero hours. And so I said, I really do need to have something that’ll help me sleep. And so we moved to sleep medication, which I was not happy about at all. But again, it was really more relying on something external as opposed to me making any behavior changes. Martin Reed: I think it’s a well-trodden path that you just described. Something that a lot of people identify with because going back to what we were talking about earlier, often we can recognize that when sleep disruption first shows up, maybe there’s an identifiable or obvious cause. Sometimes we can control that cause, sometimes we can’t. But we kind of understandably believe that once that trigger, that cause is no longer present or relevant, then everything will get back on track. And normally it does. But in the case of insomnia, sometimes it doesn’t. And that can make it feel really mysterious and unique and unusual and lead to a lot of confusion and worry and anxiety and all the difficult stuff that comes with that concern that we’ve got about our sleep. The truth is there’s never really any mystery to it, to insomnia. And from person to person, it’s almost identical from person to person. And it often comes down to the change in our approach to sleep once we’re experiencing that sleep disruption. And sometimes we get caught up in this change without even realizing it or we are just completely approaching sleep completely differently. Understandably, because we see it as a problem that we want to fix. So we engage in some changes, behavioral changes, maybe our thoughts about sleep have changed as well. And it’s all those changes that we understandably adopt in response to that sleep disruption that are almost like opening that oxygen valve to insomnia and just supplying it with the oxygen that it needs to survive. When you talked about going down that route of exploring supplements and talking about medication and things like that, you touched upon the fact that now you’re able to look back and recognize that your behaviors had changed in a way that maybe wasn’t helpful. But at the time, had you noticed that your behaviors had changed? Had you noticed that your approach to sleep had changed when you were kind of tangled up in that struggle? Or did it just all seem very mysterious still? Anne-Claire France: It really was very mysterious. And to be honest, I wondered if it was more about the aging process. Maybe my body is changing and a lot of us think about, “Oh, I wish I could do what I did when I was younger.” Blah, blah, blah, all that kind of thing. And I thought about that. And I thought, well, maybe this is just part of the normal aging process. People talk about when you get older you don’t need that much sleep. But I certainly did realize you need some, which I wasn’t getting. But what really occurred to me is that, and what was afforded to me when COVID hit, and we were in essentially lockdown as I thought, I can now pay attention to me and really take a look at what is going on here. And so I wanted to completely get off any kind of non… I wanted to get off any kind of pharmaceutical mechanism to help me with my sleep. I wanted to do something different about it. And so I started reading a lot more and really discovered this whole idea of cognitive behavioral therapy. And being a scientist myself, I really enjoy reading about that kind of stuff and realized, well, maybe I can talk to somebody who really knows what kind of therapy we’re talking about here. So I did go see someone in person in my hometown. And for a couple of sessions to really learn more about it. And realized that the type of behavioral changes that were going to be required that I know you’ve talked about like sleep restriction and the stimulus control wasn’t anything that I had ever thought of before. It was almost counterintuitive. And of course gathering the data and all that. But I certainly realized that I had potential. And as long as I was willing to learn about myself and learn about what was going on with me with some help from someone, that I would be able to have those changes. And whether the sleep was like it was when I was younger didn’t matter to me as long as it was enough for whatever I needed to be doing and feel good. That’s what I went for. So I actually looked around for a coach. And I discovered Insomnia Coach. And I thought, I want a coach because a coach will really help me learn about the potential I have. And unleash all that. As opposed to saying, “Here’s what you have to do.” It’s really more, “Here’s what the potential is and I can help you get there.” And so that’s when I reached out to you in December of 2020. Martin Reed: In terms of what that sleep was like when it was still difficult for you, were you finding it was difficulty just kind of first falling asleep or was it more to do with you fall asleep fine and then just wake up and find it impossible to fall back to sleep? Or maybe it was a bit of both. Anne-Claire France: It was primarily just falling asleep. And then as I’m sure everyone who has had any kind of insomnia issues, if you will, or in their life knows, if you find yourself having trouble falling asleep, you get anxious about it, which of course makes it even more difficult to fall asleep. And then you become such that even the thought of having to go to bed to go to sleep is anxiety producing. So you sort of, just that whole idea of even trying to be a normal sleeper… And of course I’m married to someone who can sleep anywhere. So that was tough. It’s like, oh, I wish I could do that. And of course, I have a cat who sleeps like 23 hours a day. Was even envying the cat. So it was primarily falling asleep. And so there would be nights where I would have zero hours. But what was very interesting is that even when I had zero hours of sleep, it didn’t really keep me from doing what I needed to do during the day. Although I would worry about that. That, oh, if I don’t get enough sleep, then I won’t be able to do X, Y, Z. But that really wasn’t the case. I mean, I was definitely tired and maybe didn’t have quite as much energy, but I didn’t realize until much later after having my sort of online conversations with you and going through the course that it is the case that most people can do a lot of things without a lot of sleep. But I wasn’t really recognizing that as being a good thing. It was really more of a, wow, I can still do this, but I’m still worried and anxious about not being able to sleep even though I was functioning pretty well. Martin Reed: Yeah, that’s interesting you say that. Were you finding that even though when you recalled your own experience and were like, “Well, yeah, I can still do these things that are important, that matter to me independently of sleep.” Were you finding that your brain was still maybe telling you other things that were different to your own experience? Maybe your brain was telling you things like, “You won’t be able to do those things.” Or, “You’ll really struggle to do those things.” Even though your experience told you something different? Anne-Claire France: Yes, and… In that, yes, it would tell me that, but then if I did make a slight error or something like that, my brain would always say, “Oh, that’s because you didn’t get enough sleep.” Not because it was just some normal thing that anyone might make, but it was always the reason for anything that was not quite the outcome I wanted was attributed to potentially not getting enough sleep. Which could have or may not have had anything to do with that. So yeah, my brain was right in there letting me know that my sleep issues were… It was telling me it was probably more of a problem than it actually was. Martin Reed: I think that’s one of those places where we can really get tripped up when the brain starts kind of firing up, doing its job and looking out for us and generating all these full range of thoughts and feelings. Some are helpful, some are not helpful. Some make us feel good, some don’t make us feel good. And when those difficult ones show up, because they don’t feel good, I think as human beings, our default response tends to be to try and fight them or avoid them. Because they don’t feel good. We recognize that they’re not helping us. We just want to get rid of them. And that’s what can really kind of tangle us up in a big struggle with the mind that can make everything more difficult. Because the brain then is doing its job, looking out for us, and we are trying to fight what it’s doing. Or we’re trying to avoid or trying to ignore or push all that information away and then the brain is like, “This is important. Why are you not listening to me? I’m going to yell even louder.” And then we’re trying to fight it even more. And then it’s yelling even louder and we just get caught so easily in that vicious cycle. Where we experience more of that difficult stuff, more difficult thoughts and feelings. So we fight even harder to get rid of it. And then that stuff gets even harder and we fight harder and before we know it, we’re completely exhausted, completely distracted from everything around us and the things we want to do. And what happens? The thoughts still come back anyway, right? So really what can be useful is, which I’m sure we’re going to move on to discussing is, figuring out a way where we can break that cycle. Where we can respond to all this difficult stuff that our mind is telling us maybe in a more workable way. In a way that doesn’t involve so much struggle. Because as most of us know from experience, that stuff’s going to show up anyway. What if we don’t add the struggle on top? Maybe that might make things just a little bit easier to deal with or a little bit better, help us feel a little bit better, if we just imagine that our brain is on the other end of a rope and we’re engaged in this huge tug of war battle.. What if we just kind of drop that rope? So all that stuff is still there, but now we’ve just freed up so much of our energy and our attention because we’re not just tugging on that rope all day long and all night long. Maybe now we’ve freed up to do more of the stuff that matters to us. Was that a journey that you found yourself on? Just responding to all the stuff that your mind was telling you maybe in a different way? Anne-Claire France: Yeah, for sure. As a matter of fact, I was thinking about, well, these are just thoughts and they’re transient and it’s not like the thoughts are going to do anything harmful to me. And certainly as you mentioned, it became such that if I would spend energy in trying to eliminate those thoughts, then it just became more of that struggle. And so I just decided that I need to be willing to accept that I have these thoughts and they’re just thoughts. And so I actually started doing guided meditations, actually in the morning. That really taught me a lot about what to do with sort of reframing those thoughts into something innocuous. And I like to sort of think of a lot of those thoughts as sort of mind clutter. It’s like how do I clear out the clutter, but not with a heavy, powered tool, but just with a little swipe of a little feather duster or something like that. So I mean, one of my favorite images was thinking of some of those thoughts as some rambunctious little puppy that is bouncing around in my mind. That’s so cute and makes me smile. Or I had one where I could imagine some of those thoughts in a parade on some of those banners and they’re just marching along and then disappear. Someplace to put them in, so that they weren’t really very arousing and things like that. And just to sort of reframe them in ways so that it almost got to be a habit, that I could reframe most arousing thought into something really more useful and more exploratory about what was going on with me. And then just sort of put them aside. But that took some practice. That took quite a bit of practice. So anyone who’s listening out there, that’s not something that you’re going to master overnight. It takes some practice, but well worth it. Well worth it to sort of reframe those thoughts into something that is just very normal. Martin Reed: I think one way of moving away from that struggle or building skill in moving away from that struggle… And skills require practice. If someone handed me a guitar right now, I’d sound atrocious. It would take me years and years and years to build skill in playing a guitar, for example. And this isn’t really that different. It’s a skill, it’s a new skillset. If we recognize that we might benefit from a different approach to all this difficult stuff, then it probably make sense that it’s going to require practice, it’s going to require us developing a new skill. And that does take time. Listening to you describe your approach, it sounds like you practiced going away from trying to directly fight or avoid the thoughts that were turning up and more towards observing them. And you thought to yourself, “Well, how can I observe these so they feel maybe less threatening or I’m less likely to get thrown around by these thoughts?” And you’ve used that example of, “Well, I kind of imagined these thoughts were like a rambunctious puppy.” So the thoughts were there, but they took this form that’s a little bit less threatening, and then you just kind of observed them. Anne-Claire France: Oh, I would even greet them. I would say, oh, yeah. It’s like, oh, well, hello thoughts. And you’re there and not fight it. It’s just like, well, hello there. And you are what you are and welcome. And sort of really put a positive spin on them. So that there wasn’t a reason for them to stick around. Martin Reed: So because you weren’t going to war with them, then maybe the brain didn’t feel like it had to keep on pushing this on you harder and harder and harder. Anne-Claire France: That’s right, that’s right. Well, it’s, okay, you’ve done your job. Now it’s like, “Okay, I’m going to go away.” So that was part of this practice and really retooling in my mind about number one, even welcoming disturbing or arousing kind of thought, and then just allowing them to be and reframing them until they just sort of faded away. And so that’s the part that does take a little bit of practice. Martin Reed: Yeah, exactly. And I think one area where we can get tripped up is when our goal is, “Okay, I’ll do this. And my goal is to get rid of them.” Because then we are just still tangled up in that struggle of trying to fight or avoid them. So we really… We’re almost like we’re setting ourselves up for struggle. So we’re not really going to get where we want to be if our goal is still to get rid of these thoughts and feelings. It really is just about practicing responding to them without that struggle. And sometimes there’s a bonus, they might just disappear. But really what we’re doing is moving away from the battle because when we’re engaged in a battle with our minds, as far as our brain is concerned, we’re at war. We might as well just have that huge suit of armor on, riding the war horse with a big sword in our hand. The thoughts aren’t going to disappear when we’re at war. And second of all, how likely is sleep going to happen if we’re engaged in this huge medieval battle with our minds in the middle of the night? Anne-Claire France: Yeah, yeah, very much. As a matter of fact, It got to the point where getting rid of those thoughts didn’t occur to me anymore. It was really more, oh, there they are. Again. Well, hello. And then I guess they would just get bored and go off. Martin Reed: You mentioned that you practiced a lot of this in the mornings. Did you ever practice it in the middle of the night or when you first got into bed and you were struggling to fall asleep? Did you ever get any practice in with that kind of approach at that time? Anne-Claire France: I did, but at the beginning I thought, well, I’ll do this when I’m trying to fall asleep. But see, I just even said that I was trying to fall asleep, which implies effort. And so the more I would do towards a goal of trying to fall asleep, it was almost paradox. So I found that if I did my guided meditation in the morning and then practiced a lot of that during the day, when I was up and around, and we all have lots of opportunities during the day to chill out a little bit and maybe reframe some things that are happening, that it got to be a habit. So that when I was in bed I didn’t even have to try to do things. So it was sort of a part of the way I was thinking. But I did try that at first, but again, as I mentioned, it had that paradoxical effect of putting effort into trying to sleep. Which is, I think you’ve mentioned, that’s the one thing that usually putting effort into something is a good thing, but when it’s for sleep, not a good thing. Martin Reed: It’s great that you were able to even notice that because I think so much of the struggle can come from, we just don’t even notice when it’s happening. When we’re actually tangled up in that struggle. When our goal or our intent is maybe that roadblock that’s stopping us from reaching that goal. Because just like you said, the more we try to make sleep happen, the more difficult it can become. It’s kind of like the more we try to breathe, the more confusing it all becomes, right? It’s just, breathing is this natural process. And if we kind of decide, “Okay, today I want to take a certain number of breaths. I want to be able to inhale a certain volume of air in my lungs with every breath and average a certain intake of gas every day averaged over a week.” Breathing’s going to get really confusing and stressful. And sleep is really the same. It’s kind of that the more attention we give it, the more we try to intervene, the more difficult it can all become. And I think if we could just notice that that’s what we’re tangled up in, then there’s that huge opportunity. That word you used right at the start of this conversation, you notice that there’s that opportunity to change. And the process of change isn’t easy. It does require ongoing practice, but there’s that opportunity there to respond, to approach this in a different way. And just knowing that opportunity exists can sometimes be a little bit comforting and reassuring in and of itself. And listening to these kind of discussions as well from people that have been tangled up in that process and unraveled from it can be really reassuring too. Anne-Claire France: And really the epiphany I had was there’s really two parts to the cognitive behavioral therapy. There’s what do you need to do to get your body physiologically attuned for sleep with sleep drive and things of that nature, and the various exercises if you will that you have folks do. But then there’s the arousal part. And the mind arousal part. And it was like no matter what I did with all the physiological exercises I did to get my body in tune, arousal would win over every time. So I thought I have to focus on that to try to really give my body and mind every opportunity to do what should come naturally. And just do everything I can to just promote sleep without putting a lot of effort into it by sort of retooling a number of what’s going on cognitively, psychologically as well as physiologically. Martin Reed: I like to think of it as this kind of two-pronged approach. So we have the behavioral side of things in terms of our habits around sleep or our behaviors around sleep. And then we have all the stuff that goes on inside us. The thoughts and the feelings and how we respond to those. And I think a lot of people do really well just changing that one prong, the behavioral approach. So they might notice that, “I’m going to bed at eight o’clock. I’m really struggling. Before I had any issues with sleep, I used to go to bed at 10 o’clock, 11 o’clock at night. Maybe that’s a change. I can kind of go back to my old way of doing things. Maybe going to bed really early isn’t helping me, or maybe staying in bed really late in the morning isn’t helping me. Maybe trying to nap during the day isn’t helping me.” And that approach for a lot of people is all that’s needed, just that behavioral change. Change in their behavioral approach, new habits. But then for some people, that’s a great way to set the stage for sleep, but there’s still that battle going on in the mind. So if we’re not falling asleep in a certain amount of time, the brain’s like, “It’s going to be another one of those nights. You’re not going to be able to sleep, you’re not going to be able to do anything tomorrow. You’re just going to be sitting on that couch. No one’s going to want to talk to you because you’re going to be so miserable.” All that stuff starts coming up and then we start trying to fight it, distracting ourselves, pushing it away, getting mad at ourselves, being mean to ourselves, “Why am I thinking these thoughts?” And I think that’s where exploring a new way of responding to all that difficult stuff that’s going on in our minds, that second prong approach is really, is kind of like the cherry on top of the cake. If we can also go down that route as well, which I think to be honest is more difficult. Often more difficult. If we can get down that road too, then really we’re setting ourselves up for success. And by success I mean living the kind of life we want to live independently of sleep and regardless of the difficult thoughts and feelings our brain is generating while it’s doing its job of looking out for us. Anne-Claire France: For me, I needed to do the whole hog, if you will. I had to do the physiology as well as the sort of the mind body connection. And I really had to have the willingness to have full commitment. I mean, I thought, okay, I’m just going to do this and make the time for it and do the things that were even uncomfortable. Such as the sleep restriction, was very, very helpful for me. And very interesting to recognize how that worked. And then at the same time, working on what’s going on from the arousal standpoint. And naturally sort of all that mind clutter that I mentioned that we have a lot of times. Martin Reed: You touched upon sleep restriction a couple of times now. Can you tell us a little bit more about how that approach panned out for you? Just for someone that’s listening maybe has never heard of sleep restriction before, maybe you could just explain what it was or your understanding of it in your own words and how you implemented it and what that process of implementation was like for you. Anne-Claire France: Yeah, I did some reading up on it of course, and to be honest, I think it should be called bed restriction instead of sleep restriction. Because it has not as great a connotation as what’s going on. But as a scientist, I’m used to collecting data. And so I was all for logging really what my sleep was for a couple of weeks to see how much sleep I was actually getting and how much time, from the time in bed, all those kinds of things. So for everyone out there, you keep track of how much time you’re in bed and how much time you’re awake versus asleep and various other data points as well. And then a sleep window, if you will, is constructed for you so that you don’t go to bed until a certain time. And then you only stay in bed a certain amount of time. And so really what you’re doing, the whole point is to stimulate sleep drive. And so I will say that the one thing that was one of the biggest helps to me was because I had been on a long-term sleep medication, I had lost the ability and did not realize this, but I had lost the ability to recognize true sleepiness because I would just fall asleep by virtue of that medication that I was taking. And so I would misread tiredness for sleepiness. And you can be tired but be wide awake. As opposed to having that sleepiness. And so what sleep restriction, bed restriction did for me was allow me to discover what truly feeling sleepy meant. And so it was a much more natural thing to go to bed. I’m sleepy, therefore I’m going to sleep. So that was very, very helpful for me. And I know it probably sounds funny for a lot of folks, but being able to distinguish between tiredness and true sleepiness was pivotal for me. And a big, big help for me early on in the sleep restriction exercises that we were doing. And so then I was able to extend the number of hours and so forth. Yeah. Martin Reed: It’s something I hear really quite common that, “I kind of lost this sensation of sleepiness.” Or, “I might feel sleepy earlier in the night, but then it’s time for bed and then all that sleepiness just seems to disappear.” And I think a lot of people with chronic insomnia do mistake fatigue or tiredness for sleepiness. I think a lot of people without insomnia probably do too because we often use the words interchangeably, but there is a difference. Now you’re able to reflect on that yourself. If I’m going to put you on the spot and ask you to describe the difference for you, because everyone is different, but what was that difference like? What’s the difference between feeling tired and fatigued, which might not indicate that you’re ready for sleep compared to sleepiness, which might indicate that your body’s ready to start generating sleep? Anne-Claire France: Well, tired is really more of a fatigue, and you might want to go, “Well, I just feel like not doing much.” And just maybe sitting around and watching some TV or just hanging out. Whereas sleepiness, you get that true where your eyes start drooping and you can just feel the sensation in your brain of true wanting to fall asleep. Whereas in tiredness, you don’t have that at all. But where your eyes again, start drooping and you can almost start nodding off. And so when you’re tired, you don’t necessarily do. But that sort of nodding off sensation I was like, oh, I couldn’t remember the last time that I had that happen to me and it was just delightful. It’s like, oh, yes, now I’m recalling what this is and this means that truly my sleep drive is kicking in and this is an opportunity for me to actually get some sleep. Martin Reed: I think that’s a great way of describing it. And for people that aren’t sure what we mean by sleep drive, it’s almost like hunger, but for sleep. Like biological hunger for sleep. So we wake up in the morning, most of us are pretty hungry because we haven’t eaten all night. So we’ll eat some breakfast, then we’re not hungry anymore until around lunchtime and then maybe not until dinnertime. And what can happen when we have insomnia and we really want to chase after sleep and make sleep happen is we might start going to bed before we’re sleepy, which is a bit like sitting at the dinner table at three o’clock in the afternoon waiting to get hungry for dinner at night. The chances are we’re just going to be sitting there doing nothing for a long time until biologically the body’s like, “Okay, I’m ready to eat.” Or, “I’m ready to sleep now.” And so with a sleep window, all we’re looking to do is, all right, if I’m averaging X amount of sleep over the course of a week or two, then I’m going to allot roughly that much time to be in bed. So we’re not taking sleep away from ourselves. That’s why sleep restriction is probably really unhelpful terminology. Because it implies that we are restricting sleep, but what we’re doing really is just restricting the amount of time available for wakefulness. Because if we know from our own experience that we’re averaging three, four, five hours of sleep, then by spending 8, 9, 10 hours in bed, we’re setting ourselves up for long periods of wakefulness and we’re more likely to be going to bed before the body is actually ready for bed, before it’s ready for sleep to happen. And really that’s all there is to it. It’s not one of these things that can make sleep happen. It’s not one of these things that guarantees we’re not going to spend time awake at night, but it just helps us move away from chasing after sleep, trying to make it happen in a way that makes it more difficult for sleep to happen. Anne-Claire France: Yeah, I mean I think your analogy of it being like hunger is great. There was a saying I read somewhere where, sleep to live, not live to sleep. There are a lot of people, “Well, I just like to sleep.” It’s like, well, if your body is not ready for it… And it also, the other really epiphany that I had was that you need to do what your body needs as opposed to what you want. And it’d be nice if you could just, well, I’m going to sleep whenever I want or do whatever things when I want. But if your body’s just… That’s not what it needs, then you need to respect that and perhaps alter your thinking on your approaches to certain things. Whether it’s eating or sleeping or any of those other things that we do for sustenance and health. Martin Reed: We talked about that sleep restriction as one part of the behavioral changes that you made, just giving yourself an earliest possible bedtime and getting out of bed a reasonably consistent time every morning as well. Were there any other behavioral changes you made that looking back upon reflection you found were useful too? Anne-Claire France: Well, the one thing that you just mentioned that I didn’t allude too much on, but it turned out to be critical, was the consistent time of getting out of bed. That no matter what time I went to sleep, I always got out bed at the same time. So even if I was up till two o’clock in the morning and my get out of bedtime was five, I would get up at five. And whether it was the weekend, vacation, whatever, it was just really important to have that consistent, get out of bed time. And not try to catch up on sleep. A lot of people think that that’s a good idea, but it definitely… Maybe it was at one time, but certainly was not helpful. Martin Reed: That catching up on sleep, that idea of, “I need to catch up on sleep.” Why sometimes it’s not helpful, we can kind of go back to that hunger analogy again, right? Because it would be like, “I really want to eat. I really want eating to happen. I really don’t like feeling hungry. I want to feel full.” So four o’clock in the afternoon we have this huge three course meal, and then we’re kind like, “Yes, I’ve caught up.” And then at eight o’clock or nine o’clock at night when everyone’s kind of already eating dinner, you’re still not eating dinner yet, you’re kind of sitting there, “Oh, I want to eat now, but I’m full.” And it’s kind like that when we’re catching up on sleep. It can feel great at the time, “Yeah, I’m catching up on sleep.” Or, “I’ve just fallen asleep at four o’clock and my alarm’s gone off at five, I’m just going to sleep in until eight or nine o’clock.” Well, yeah, it can feel great at the time, but then we’re kind of setting ourselves up for difficulties later on. Anne-Claire France: Oh, absolutely. I actually look back on just my life in general in that I would tend to work all week and then I’d sleep in on Sundays. Till nine in the morning. And then looking back, I always wondered why I couldn’t fall asleep on Sunday night. Well, because my body had as much sleep as it needed. And is like, well… Then I’d have to get back on track before I ever had… This was before I ever had, quote, “insomnia”. I would not sleep well on Sunday nights because I would sleep in on Sunday mornings. So another two and two together. Martin Reed: And sometimes it’s worth it, right? It is just like everything that helps us live a rich and meaningful life tends to come with some downsides and some difficult stuff, and sometimes it’s worth it. Sometimes we’ll be like, “Yeah, I want to have a lie in on Saturday or Sunday. That helps me live the life I want to live. It might lead to some sleep disruption on the next night, but I’m okay with that.” And that’s fine. It’s just being aware of the fact that our choices that we make, they’re going to have consequences. And it’s down to us as individuals, we are the expert on ourselves to know if that’s a trade off we’re okay with. And if we are, then fine. There’s no need to change anything. Anne-Claire France: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But I did make that connection. I laughed about it actually. Went, well… Oh, well, that was fine. Martin Reed: When we are dealing with chronic insomnia, there can be so many insights to be gained from reflecting back on what our approach to sleep was before it all seemed so difficult. I think there’s so many valuable snippets of information from our own experience that we can use to our advantage there. Because when we are really caught up in the struggle, the brain’s looking out for us and it’s just laser focused on fixing the problem. And it’s that trying to fix the problem, which is often what gets us caught up in that quicksand, caught up in the struggle. And the more we try, the more we keep sinking. If we are able to reflect back, “Well, how did I approach this before?” Whether that was one year, 10 years, 50 years ago, we might be able to get some little insights there that can help us as we move forward. You talked about you were implementing the sleep restriction or the sleep window. So what was that actually like? Because it’s one thing to talk about, “All right, I’m not going to go to bed before a certain time. I’m going to get out of bed no matter what at say, five o’clock or six o’clock in the morning.” Whatever your lifestyle is, the time that works for you. Let’s just kind of go back to night one. And you kind of set this up for yourself. What did that look like in practice? Was it something that you found really easy to do? Did you find that you were immediately just falling asleep as soon as your head hit the pillow and just sleeping right through the night? What was that actual experience of implementation like? Anne-Claire France: Oh, no. It was challenging. It was challenging. And that was one of the first things where I said, I need to be willing to commit myself to do this because I knew that it was probably going to take some time for something to happen. So no, that first night I was probably awake the whole night. And so I just told my husband, here’s going to be what’s going on. And so it was helpful that he was very supportive of all this. But it was probably, I’d say about a week went by of it being pretty tough. But I hung in. And then I would make sure that of course, that I didn’t take any naps. Even though I got, quote, “sleepy” during the day. I was not going to take any naps because I didn’t want to use up if you will, some of my sleep drive. I wanted it to build up as much as possible. And I remember, believe it or not, I remember being so excited when I got a full hour of sleep. And I mean, that was a big improvement. And then it was an hour and a half and then two hours and then three hours, and I would have awakenings, but I would fall back asleep. So I did that for quite some time and realized that the whole idea of needing, of this… There’s a lot of advisement out there that you need to have seven to nine hours of sleep, well, that’s a recommendation, but however for me, I seem to do just fine at six. And so when I was at six, I was very, very happy to get six hours. And again, I would wake up during the night. That was fine. And then go back to sleep. But over time, my sleep time has increased. But I was at six hours for a long time and felt great with that. I mean, my body felt great. I was clearheaded, the whole nine yards. But as I’ve managed the arousal part that we talked about earlier, I’ve extended my sleep hours by at least… Oftentimes it’s seven to eight now. Again with awakenings. Just awakenings. Yeah. Martin Reed: And have you found that, going back to that change of approach to the arousal, the thoughts, the feelings, all that stuff that often comes with wakefulness, as you’ve become more skilled in responding to that in a different way when it shows up, do you find that when wakefulness shows up, when you’re just awake during the night, you have kind of a different relationship with that wakefulness now? Anne-Claire France: Yes, yes, very much. First off, what was important was realizing that having awakenings was very, very normal. And that just with the cycle of sleep, you’re probably going to wake up most likely every 90 minutes or so, whether you know it or not. So just knowing that that was a physiological normal thing to do was very helpful. And then the fact that I had been sleeping and then waking, before I would’ve gotten a little panicky about, oh, no, I’m now awake and I’m not going to be able to go to sleep, and oh, my gosh. And things of that nature. Whereas it evolved into, oh, this is just a normal thing for me to wake up and then just enjoy the wakefulness. I actually said, oh, I can think about some nice things while I’m here. Or maybe do another little mind exercise for myself just for enjoyment or something like that. And as I got more and more skilled at that then my awakenings were more on the lines of I’d wake up, but I’d feel sleepy still as opposed to being really wake. But I know I was still sleepy and then I would fall back to sleep pretty quickly. Martin Reed: Maybe it comes down to that willingness, like you’ve mentioned a few times. When we are more willing to experience the wakefulness or when we are more willing to experience the thoughts and feelings that come with being a human being, especially the difficult ones, we become less responsive to those things when they show up. So like you just mentioned, maybe in the past you would wake during the night and kind of the brain would start flashing that red light and the sirens would be going off, here’s the wakefulness, everything’s going to be a disaster now. And then you’re all tense. Compared to when we are more willing to experience the wakefulness it’s kind of, we wake up, “Oh, there’s that wakefulness.” There’s no more alarm bells. There’s no sirens going off. But I think it’s one thing to say, “Oh, I need to be willing to experience this.” It’s quite another to actually be willing because it is unpleasant, especially when we’re really caught up in the struggle. If someone’s listening to this and just thinking to themselves, “Willing to experience insomnia, no. I don’t want to be willing to experience insomnia because it’s awful. How am I going to be willing to experience something that is this unpleasant?” I’m putting you on the spot a bit here, but what would you say to someone who’s feeling that way? Because I think most people with chronic insomnia are like, “No, I’m completely unwilling to experience this because it’s very unpleasant.” How do we get from there to this place of more willingness? Anne-Claire France: I think part of it is to accept that everyone, whether you’re quote, an “insomniac” or not, everyone’s going to have wakefulness. It’s not just unique to folks who think who have insomnia per se. And everyone, even good sleepers, if you will, are going to have difficult nights. I mean, that’s just the way it is. So there’s a lot of company out there, and being awake is really just a natural part of the 24 hour cycle in our lives. And I think that some people think that acceptance or willingness to do something is similar to resignation. And I think resignation is when you feel defeated and there’s nothing you can do about this. Whereas acceptance and willingness is, “I can do something different. Perhaps I can learn some things with a coach or something like that to help me get the potential to promote my sleep.” So the willingness to be awake and play around with that in a good way, in a positive way, and learn from that is all part of that whole exercise to get to where you want to be. And it’s really the positive end as opposed to, “There’s something wrong with me. There’s nothing I can do about this.” But if you can transition that to being willing and accepting, then that’s a, “No, I can do something about this and reach my potential.” Martin Reed: What was the process like in terms of progress? Everyone always wants… As human beings, we always want to kind of measure our progress against other people. And I always try and steer people away from that because especially with sleep, it’s something we can’t directly control. So we’re kind of trying to make something happen that we can’t control because someone else was able to make something happen that they couldn’t control on a certain time period, and we’re trying to match that. But I think what can be helpful is recognizing that progress is very rarely linear. It usually comes with ups and downs. And progress is really different from person to person. I think what’s more useful is just focusing on what we can control, which is the practice. Practice rather than progress. Because if we are practicing a new, more workable approach to all this difficult stuff, then the progress will take care of itself. And we can’t control the progress. We can only control the practice. So when you were implementing all these changes that we’ve been talking about, what was that like for you in terms of progress? Were you finding that each night was just better than the last and that you were just kind of on this straight line uphill where everything was always getting better, or were there some bumps in the roads and some ups and downs and difficulties too? Anne-Claire France: Oh, yeah. It was anything but linear. And I’ll say that when I graduated from your course, it wasn’t like everything was hunky dory and we were all done. I thought, I now have the tools, the skills, the information I need along with everything else I’ve been doing to do what I need to do to try to make improvements. And so things would go well, then I’d have a setback for a few days or whatever. The big difference for me, that was so important was that when I had a setback, I didn’t panic. It was really more of a, oh, I know what’s happening. Here’s what I need to do. And so the two years since I graduated from your class to now were much better than before. But there was sort of that up and down, but my whole attitude about it was completely different. That, well, I know what to do. I know exactly what’s happening. I can do this or that or pay more attention to this or that. And that didn’t mean I had to disrupt my life or anything like that. It was really more of a, oh, yeah, I forgot and I got a little lazy on some things. For example, I might’ve slept in or I took a nap or whatever. I could attribute things. And so it was really more of a, I know what to do now when I do have those setbacks. And it’s just been within the last few months or so where I haven’t had any setbacks whatsoever, without something that I could attribute it to. Like there was a very loud noise or something that was going on wherever I was sleeping. But it’s not a linear process. I think everyone who does something like this it’s, their progress, if you will, is going to be unique to them. And to try not to compare yourself to anybody else. As long as you have the tools and you can just go back and refer to them, reference them. I think one of the great things that you do for folks is you allow everyone to keep all the material that you had so you can go back and listen. And then of course you have podcasts and various other things for people to listen to. So just refresh your memory and your skills and put them into practice and it’ll work out. Martin Reed: How long do you think it took for you to get to a point where sleep wasn’t something you were just kind of endlessly struggling with? It wasn’t kind of on your mind, crowding out all the other things that you wanted to think about or pay attention to, and you just felt better able to live your life independently of what happened at night when just your general relationship changed and you felt, “Yeah, I don’t feel like this is a struggle anymore. I might still have some difficult nights, but it’s not something that’s kind of consuming my attention, my life.” Anne-Claire France: I would say at least six months. It was probably at least six months. And my attitude about it really… And again, it wasn’t a sudden attitude change. It was really an evolution in my attitude change, in that, oh, this is just… And my perception of the insomnia part of me was, oh, that’s just that. And I don’t have to worry about it. It’ll come and go. And I would even… People if I was on vacation or visiting with people and they’d say, “How’d you sleep?” And I said, well, for me, I don’t sleep like everybody else, but that’s just me. And it’s just kind of normal. And I didn’t attribute me being an insomniac anymore. It was really more of a, my sleep patterns are evolving over time. And what’s normal for me is not going to be normal for somebody else. And so my normality, if you will, my normal state has evolved as well as I think my body has now become accustomed to getting what it needs as opposed to me saying, here’s what I want. And me paying more attention to that. And sometimes I’m not sleepy. So if I’m not sleepy, I’m not going to try to go to sleep. But if I’m sleepy well… Like in the middle of the day, I’m going to do my best maybe to have a cat nap for 10 minutes as opposed to sleeping for an hour. Being respectful of the sleep drive that I’d like to kick in later on. But it took me a while to get to that point. Martin Reed: As human beings, we always want to make progress really quickly. We always want to develop new skills immediately, but they require work and effort and ups and downs. It’s just a normal part of the journey. So I think it’s helpful to hear from other people what that process was like for them. Because it’s really easy to hold ourselves to these impossibly high standards. And it’s so ironic that we can hold ourselves to these high standards, but we can’t even directly control reaching those standards when it comes to sleep. Because there’s no magic sleep switch that we can find hidden away in our brain that we can just activate upon command. So it’s really helpful to just hear the more realistic experience from people like you coming on, saying, “Yes, there are ups and downs. It’s not easy, is difficult. It requires commitment, it requires willingness. And it requires time. It’s not a quick fix. It might take months, it might take even longer. It’s ongoing practice.” And it’s that ongoing practice which really is the key because it’s so easy to get disheartened and the brain is telling you, “This isn’t going to work. Give up. Go back to all the old stuff that you know from experience doesn’t work, but maybe try that stuff even harder.” So it’s really easy to get pushed off track. And so it is a case of just keeping on going. Persevering. Anne-Claire France: Yeah, it really is like a journey. It’s like a journey. And included in that journey is you have to say goodbye to some old habits. And we know about habit formation. That’s very challenging to change, something that’s a habit. Because we just do that without even thinking. And you do your habits without even giving it much thought, but realizing that something that could be impacting your sleep is a habit. And you’re like, “Oh, my, that’s something I have to change.” And that can be tough at first, but when you realize the benefit of that, then all the other habits that you may have to change, you’re like, “Okay, I understand why I may have to make those changes.” But yeah, it’s a journey I think. And I am more attuned to a potential habit that might creep in. I’m like, oh, I know where this is going to go. So maybe not. Martin Reed: So Anne-Claire, I really appreciate the time you’ve taken out your day to come on and just share your experience. I do have one last question for you, which would be great if you could answer, because I think you’d feel a bit left out if I didn’t ask you because I tend to ask this question or something similar to it to every guest. So here we go. It’s this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening, they feel as though they’ve just tried everything, that they’re beyond help, that they’ll just never be able to move away from that struggle with sleep, with insomnia. What would you say to them? Anne-Claire France: I think I’d say, be willing to step back and learn about what sleep really is all about. That it is a natural state. And most likely the reason why you’re having struggles is because you are doing things that are disrupting your natural state. And if you can learn about what all those things are as well as what promotes the natural state, then everyone has potential. And the best way to do that is not to try to figure it out all yourself, but perhaps reach out to someone like yourself to say, “Here are the tried and true types of things that you can do, and I’m willing to help you along. And ensure that you can reach your potential.” But be willing to be patient. You have to be patient and make the commitment to make those sometimes large, but often small changes that can add up in the end. Martin Reed: That’s great. Well, I think that’s an excellent note to end on. So thanks again for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast Anne-Claire. Anne-Claire France: You’re welcome. It was my pleasure. Martin Reed: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin Reed: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin Reed: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin Reed: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

The stress of COVID and the breakup of Jessy’s community created a period of sleep disruption that she couldn’t shake off, no matter how hard she tried. At first, she found it really hard to fall asleep and soon after that she started to wake during the night and found it hard to fall back to sleep, too. Difficult nights became more frequent — at first they would show up just once a week, then twice a week, then a few times a week. As sleep got more difficult, Jessy started to get really scared and things spiraled from there because no matter what she did in an attempt to get her sleep back on track, she continued to struggle. Jessy took medication that didn’t seem to be helping, but she worried that if she didn’t continue to take it, things would get worse. She felt desperate, hopeless, and alone. She felt as though she was losing control over her life. One day, Jessy found the Insomnia Coach podcast and started to feel hope as she listened to the stories of others who had experienced what she was going through. And, from there, she decided to work with me. One of Jessy’s transformational moments came when she decided to continue working, still go out with friends, and still do things that mattered to her even after difficult nights and even when she felt really tired. By doing this, she started to take back control of her life, even when insomnia was still present, and she realized this also gave her the opportunity to focus on things other than sleep. Jessy started to realize that the more she tried to fight or avoid all the difficult stuff that came with insomnia, the more difficult things became. So, she started to acknowledge whatever she was thinking or feeling and practiced being kinder to herself when things were difficult. As she allowed her thoughts and feelings to flow with less resistance, Jessy realized that her thoughts often contained important information and reminders of what was important to her. She also realized that her mind could often be an unreliable narrator. That what it said wasn’t always true or accurate. These insights helped Jessy separate herself from her thoughts and feel less influenced and controlled by them. Today, Jessy considers her sleep to be quite normal. She is no longer tangled up in a struggle, trying to control her sleep. She is living the life she wants to live. Although she was certainly not grateful for her insomnia while she was struggling with it, she now sees the experience as giving her the opportunity to recognize her own resilience and the confidence to do hard things. She now believe that the experience of insomnia helped to catapult her into the next phase of her life. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin Reed: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin Reed: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin Reed: Okay, Jessy, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Jessy Baer: Yeah, no problem. It’s exciting to be here. I’ve been looking forward to it. Martin Reed: Let’s just dive right in and get started, as always, right at the beginning. When did your sleep problems first begin, and what do you think caused those initial issues with sleep? Jessy Baer: Yeah, that’s a great question. My sleep problems began sort of right, maybe a few months, after quarantine began in the US, in California. I was living at the time in San Francisco, in a big co-op with around 20 people. Martin Reed: Wow. Jessy Baer: Maybe at that time it was … I absolutely loved it, and it was all my best friends, and I was so deeply attached to that community. And when COVID happened, it presented a lot of challenges for community living. And there was just a lot of conflict, a lot of people. It had been a very stable place, and I had lived there five years, best friends there. Again, very, very attached to this space, couldn’t imagine life without it. And during COVID, people moved out. Two factions started happening in the house, and there was just incredible, incredible conflict. And it was really unclear. It wasn’t this safe home anymore. It was this place of conflict and people leaving. And I think it was just deeply, deeply, deeply troubling to me. And I think it started off a stress reaction that actually started. I got, I never had had acid reflux before, but I came down with that, and then that happened. And then a few months later, the insomnia started to happen, and it just got worse and worse. Yeah, but it was very much triggered by, I think, feeling very deeply this deep source of home, and attachment had been completely overturned and feeling really sort of unsafe and concerned about the future of this community and these relationships. Martin Reed: So what was sleep like for you at that time? Was it kind of you were just starting to find it hard to fall asleep at the start of the night? Or was it waking during the night and finding it hard to fall back to sleep? Or maybe it was a combination of all of those things. Jessy Baer: Yeah, so well, one thing I think is kind of interesting, and I think it kind of goes to some of this stuff around how sleep hygiene is really not that useful. Because I had come down with this acid reflux, and my doctor had told … And I was someone who drank caffeine in the morning and then had maybe a glass of wine at night. And I had stopped both of those because of the reflux. I was told that would help. So I was technically in the state where I was not drinking caffeine or alcohol. That’s actually when the insomnia happened. So it just further proved to me that it’s really not related to those things at all. But yeah, no, I remember it happened kind of slowly. It would just be a few nights where I wouldn’t be able to fall asleep. And then it would sort of become … It kind of progressed, I think as my stress around the community falling apart progressed. And then it turned into not being able to fall asleep or waking up in the middle of the night. And it would just happen at either … It wasn’t consistently not being able to fall asleep or waking up in the middle of the night. It was just both. It was both of those. And it was more, just it was increasing, I think. So the off nights maybe started out once a week. They started going twice a week, started going a few times a week. I started, then I started developing the fear of not being able to sleep and it becoming something, a fear around sleep, not just my stress around the community. And started Googling insomnia and finding all these diagnoses of, if you’re having off nights twice a week, you have insomnia. And then I started really freaking out and thinking I have a condition. And it just kind of spiraled, honestly. And yeah, it really spiraled from there. Martin Reed: So you kind of touched upon it there. What most of us do when we face a problem in life is we kind of turn to Google to find the answers. What kind of things had you tried before you found Insomnia Coach, before you began this journey, where now you’re able to look back and know what was helpful and what wasn’t quite so helpful? What kind of things had you tried back then on reflection? It’s understandable, why we tried them, but perhaps they weren’t that helpful in the end. Jessy Baer: I tried so many things. I tried a valerian root. I tried CBD. I tried magnesium. I tried, man, I don’t smoke marijuana. It doesn’t really agree with me. I get kind of anxious on it, but I’ve decided maybe marijuana will do it. I tried that, got really anxious, was up for many hours, because I was so anxious. It was very much not the right thing. But I was like, I’ll try anything again. Again, as I mentioned, I wasn’t even drinking caffeine or alcohol during that time. That was not even part of my diet. What else? I tried sleeping in different rooms. I tried asking my friend, because I started to have a negative association with my room in my house. And I think also because I was doing everything in that room during quarantine, I was working in that room. I was sleeping in that room. I was hanging out in that room. It was this tiny room with everything. So I’ve tried. I had got some of my housemates who were gone. I tried to go to their room with an off night. I tried more abstract psychotherapy work. I was like clearly, maybe there’s something deeper to solve here. So I think I tried psychotherapy and just doing that. That didn’t work. I also, man, I tried writing all my worries out on a piece of paper before bed, because I know that’s a technique where you can get your worries out that way. That did not help. That technique really did not work for me. It just made me kind of think about my worries more. It didn’t feel like a release. And then I guess the biggest thing I tried, I had kind of a freak-out call with my primary care doctor, who’s wonderful. She’s a really wonderful doctor. I had a real breakdown call with her, and she prescribed me Trazodone. Yeah, Trazodone, which is more an anti-anxiety medication. But I remember, I think she was just … I think I was calmer after that call, because she seemed confident that it might work. And so I remember I took the first Trazodone pill and slept well that night. And so I was like okay, maybe this is the last straw. It’s my primary care doctor. This is the last thing I’m trying, and if this doesn’t work, nothing will work. And I remember I slept well that night, I think, because I was just calm, because we had had a very emotional session. And I had just vented about everything and all the grief I was feeling. And she seemed confident. But then the second night is … It didn’t work. And I had a terrible night of sleep, and then I really started to lose hope, because if the thing my doctor hadn’t prescribed didn’t work, then I didn’t know who was going to have confidence. If my doctor couldn’t be confident in this, then I didn’t know who could. So yeah, that was the trigger to that actually led. And actually one thing in the background, I remember I had tried reaching out to Stanford to just sleep therapists. I had Googled. I was like, is there some kind of therapy that specializes in sleep? I just was thinking, is there some specialist, sleep specialist? And I remember Googling Stanford and calling them, because I lived in near Stanford at the time, and trying to get an appointment with them. And they couldn’t give me an appointment for six months or something. Martin Reed: Wow. Jessy Baer: Because they were so backed up, because there were so many people having insomnia issues at this moment in quarantine. I think a lot of people were having a similar situation to me and that life stressors had gotten out of control, and then this had triggered insomnia. So I remember just thinking there’s no hope there. And as I can just share, so this, all this moment of the Trazodone not working, I was just so desperate, I remember, and feeling just hopeless and so alone, so alone. I felt like no … just so alone. It was such a … I felt like there was this huge filter on me in the world and me and my future. But I remember, I was walking the dog, and I was just looking at my phone, desperate to not feel so alone in this. And I have a Stitcher podcast, and I just searched insomnia. And I just did that, and your program showed up, which is so serendipitous. And I was like Insomnia Coach, interesting. And then I remember listening. I still remember the first interview of yours with this woman, this wonderful woman I listened to on my walk. And that was seriously a transformational moment, because I had never heard an insomnia success story. Everyone had just told me that, if you have insomnia, you’re stuck with it for the rest of your life. It’s just kind of this hopeless thing. And I remember that was the first thing that gave me hope. And then I found your program. But it was really after desperation and trying so many things. And even the doctor-prescribed medicine wasn’t even working. Yeah, it was a long road to find your podcast. Martin Reed: You’re not the first person to say how powerful it was just to find other people out there sharing their story and not only sharing their story as in all the ways they’re struggling, so we know that we’re not alone. But when people are talking about their kind of transformation, it is possible to change our relationship with sleep. It doesn’t have to be this struggle, this battle that we have to endure all night, every night and struggle with all day, every single day. There is a way through it all. And that in itself can be so comforting. It’s so easy to just believe that we’re broken when we’re caught up in this huge struggle with it. But the truth is, none of us are ever broken. We get stuck from time to time, and we just need a little bit of help getting unstuck. And that’s why I’m so grateful for people like yourself who are willing to come onto the podcast and just share their story. Because every story is maybe a little bit different, but the big theme is generally the same. There’s like this trigger for the sleep disruption. There’s all the things that we try to do to fix it, which tend not to be that helpful. Then that leads to more worry, makes us think with there’s something uniquely wrong. But when we hear that story in others and recognize that we’re not unique, we’re not alone, there is a way forward. It’s just so powerful and so comforting and reassuring and motivating. So I’m really grateful for guests just like yourself coming on and sharing this story. Jessy Baer: Yeah, no, your podcast was actually a huge part of my recovery. Because I did your program, and of course off nights happen. And what I would always do when I was in that point where I had an off night, and I was getting a little stressed or worried or my trust was getting a little shaken, I would just go on a long walk. I remember I had these walks, these hikes and walks throughout Los Altos, where I was, that I would go on. And I would just listen to a new one of your stories. And that was the medicine that helped me in these moments of doubt and fear. I just would listen to one of your stories. I feel like I listened to so many of them. It is just one of those things where I feel like it takes … You can hear the same thing over, and it helped to hear it over and over again and from different people. It didn’t get old. It was just every single time, it was incredibly useful. Every new voice was incredibly useful, and it really just helped me normalize. It gave me a lot of hope and also just normalized for me the twists and turns and ups and downs of the journey, because it was a nonlinear journey. And to hear their different stories and all their unique twists and turns and moments of doubt, it was so, so helpful. And I think there was something about moving. I was just walking, going on these long nature walks, listening to their voices. And it just really helped me get through this. And there was no one … I’m someone who, if I’m going through emotional pain or a struggle, I actually do share it with a lot of people. I’ll be open and because I’m trying to get wisdom and advice from people and figure out how to navigate through this difficult situation. And I was doing that with insomnia. And no one, I didn’t get any … All of the nourishment of the stories on your podcast I was not finding in my community or in the people I was sharing with. So it was just so incredible. I wasn’t finding that perspective anywhere else in my life. So it’s such a huge part of my recovery. I know it’s not even officially part of your program, but that was a huge part of your program for me, is that supplemental listening to the podcast and the interviews. Martin Reed: Yeah, it is kind of amazing, isn’t it? When you listen to some of these episodes, that everyone’s journey is remarkably similar from the start line to the kind of finish line. But the journey itself, like the twists and turns or the direction we take, there can be some little differences there. But broadly speaking, the journey is almost identical from person to person. It’s really interesting, just the whole process from going from the struggle and all the effort to a place where we remove ourselves from that struggle, remove ourselves from the effort, kind of open ourselves up to doing things that we have control over, focusing on our actions rather than getting tangled up in a battle with all the stuff that’s out of our control. And I think it’s really helpful to hear it in lots of different voices and from people with lots of different backgrounds. Because although from person to person the message might be quite similar, we all express ourselves a little bit differently. So you might have heard something said a few times before, but it doesn’t click until someone describes it in a certain way that kind of really resonates with you. And yeah, so it can be so powerful to just hear those stories and just realize that we are not alone, we’re not broken, there’s nothing uniquely wrong and that there is a way to move through this. Jessy Baer: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Martin Reed: Before we kind of move on to that process of transformation, I’m just curious to hear how you were finding that the insomnia was affecting your days, the kind of life that you wanted to live. Because a lot of the time we hear about insomnia being difficult at night, but what a lot of people don’t realize that maybe you’ve never really experienced insomnia before is it’s kind of like this 24-hour-a-day struggle. It’s not just the nighttime. It’s the days that can be difficult too. How is insomnia kind of affecting your days, affecting your waking life, so to speak? Jessy Baer: Yeah, it was hugely affecting my life before I found your podcast. It was really a big shadow over my life. I think as it happened more consistently, I was still living in this community house that was sort of having all this tension but I was still quite attached to. And as I was unable to sleep increasingly more and more, I just felt this kind of filter between me and the world around me and in my future in an exciting life and connection to others. And I just felt isolated from the world and not an active participant in my life, my future, my dreams. I really felt so alone, and I couldn’t get excited about life. I felt my life had been ruined, kind of. And I couldn’t even envision what … I couldn’t even think about my future or anything. And so I remember, it got so bad that I was so attached to this 22-person community, and I didn’t want to leave. I really wanted to stick it out through the conflict and work through and rebuild, because we were bringing in new people and rebuilding the community at that time. And I wanted to be there and participate in that and kind of make that the next chapter of my life. But I felt so I couldn’t do it. And so I actually ended up moving home to live with my parents for a period during COVID, because I just needed support. And it’s one of those things where it was so hard at the time. It was incredibly hard for me to leave my community and move home. But in hindsight, it was a really beautiful thing, because I had this really special period of life living with my parents, which I never would’ve had before. And it was during COVID, so it wasn’t quite as … That was relatively a normal thing to do, and so it didn’t feel as … It didn’t feel like I was totally leaving the youth or young person’s life in the same way. Yeah, and so I moved home with my parents, and still though, that didn’t fix the insomnia. So I moved home with my parents. I was in a more supportive environment with less conflict, and it was more peaceful. I wasn’t in the middle of the city. I thought that was, I guess, another thing I tried. I thought that might fix it, but it didn’t. But it was still nice to be with them, and I did feel kind of safer there. But I think the other thing that started to really affect my life is I really liked my job, actually, at the time. I’m a design strategist. I work at a really cool design agency. And I was actually … I enjoy my job. But I was, because of the insomnia, and my job is a lot of thinking and higher level cognitive tasks, and I was struggling. I was really, really struggling. I was every day to do the things I needed to do for my job, because I was so tired. And I remember I was thinking about, I just needed to quit my job and just really quit my job, live at home, just heal, do nothing. That was kind of my instinct. And I remember talking to my parents, and they were like, if you need to do that, that’s fine. And also, this was meanwhile, I was actually supposed to be launching into something that was even more intense, which is my job. And then I was doing a master’s program in behavioral science, which was supposed to kick off at the same time. That got delayed a year anyway just because of COVID, because it’s in London. It’s like this travel to London thing. But anyway, I was in my head. I was like I can’t even conceive of doing school and my job at this. I can’t even do my job. I am really … The future I had envisioned for myself is so far from reality. And I was single, and I was like I can’t even imagine trying to date in this state. Yeah, so anyway, I’m just kind of rambling, but I do feel like all the dreams and everything I was engaged in, I just kind of felt like I couldn’t do anymore. And it was really unsettling. Martin Reed: Yeah, it is really interesting just to hear you describing all that. Because when we’re faced with all these difficulties, that problem-solving mind, it kind of goes into overdrive. And it tells us all these things that we should withdraw from or we should avoid or that we can’t do. And because our brain is kind of like our best friend, always there for us, always looking out for us, we can often just accept what it says without question. And so it’s telling us, “Maybe you should call in sick, or maybe you should quit your job, or maybe you can’t go out with friends. You can’t go dating. You haven’t got enough sleep.” And so we kind of listen to that, and we can so easily get caught up in it and kind of pushed away from the kind of life we want to live. So now not only are we dealing with that struggle of the insomnia and the wakefulness, but we’re also, we’re kind of withdrawing from all the things that are important to us and that kind of help us live a rich and meaningful life. Jessy Baer: Totally, and that was actually a big aha for me. Because I feel like in my head, if you’re sick or not feeling well, you need to rest. Or that’s the association I had, and so I thought that taking a sick day, that quitting my job, which I liked but didn’t think I could handle, that not going on outings with friends, I thought all these things were ways I could heal and rest. And it was the right thing to do, and so it was a huge aha moment, I think, in your program. And I didn’t hear otherwise. Everybody else supported that. They’re like, “Yeah, take it easy, take a nap, take a sick day.” That was what in my community and parents and everyone, they were so supportive of these things. Because they had the same conception that if you’re sick, you’re not feeling mentally well, you need to rest. And so hearing your podcast and hear and really hearing you confidently say that’s the wrong thing to do, and you should continue to live your full life, and that was a huge aha. Because once I knew that, it really relieved the pressure off sleep, because I realized that I could do these things. And it was nice, because I think before I had had this mixed relationship, because I thought they were maybe hurting me and making it worse, because I was tired and not feeling well. But once the switch in my brain flipped, and after hearing about your techniques, and I started associating being really tired but still going out with friends, being really tired but still going to work, being really tired but not taking a sick day as good and healthy and helping me versus bad and hurting me. It was a really big turnaround. That was a huge turnaround moment. So yeah, anyway, just that was a big, big moment for me. Martin Reed: It’s tricky, right? Because we still want to keep doing things that are important to us, that are meaningful. But at the same time, we are human beings still. And so we still have to mix that in with some self kindness or some self care, kind of acknowledge that, yeah, things are difficult for me right now. Maybe if I’m kind of training for a marathon or something, maybe I won’t go out and do a 20-mile run today. Maybe I’ll just do a 10-mile run, or maybe I’ll just do some work on my training routine or some research on that. So we can still do things that are connected to things that are meaningful and important, even if we might not necessarily feel like up for the whole shebang, just diving right into everything, that really overwhelming schedule after really difficult nights. We can still do things that are connected to what matters, to what’s important. So we can exercise some self care without it completely derailing us and just leading to us withdrawing from life and moving away from the kind of life we want to live. So it is a little bit of a balance. And so I think we do need to be kind to ourselves, recognize that we are human. But as you said, really we got two choices when we are faced with that struggle, is we can give up and withdraw from everything that’s important to us. Or we can see if there’s any way we can continue to do what matters, what we find important, what we find meaningful and enriching just to keep us moving on that path, moving toward the life we want to live, the person we want to be. Because the only possible alternative is moving away from that self, and that doesn’t usually help us over the longer term. Jessy Baer: Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. I think self kindness, sleep or not, it’s just something that is such a big deal to practice. I’ve been actually really trying to work on that in just life in general, because it’s so important. But as you’re saying this, I totally agree. Because when I reflect on my journey, so technically moving home with my parents could have been viewed as a retreat. But actually it was such a good move. I’m very happy I did that. I was in a really fragile state. I really needed that mom and dad nourishment and that home-cooked meal every night and that level of attention and to not be in an environment that had a lot of conflict and was stressful like that. So it’s a good point. It’s like balancing, still doing what you’re going to do but also being kind to yourself and acknowledging you are in … At least for me, I was in a fragile state, and I needed to be in an environment, if possible, that would be a nurturing one. Martin Reed: I think it can be a lot easier, once that stuff is behind us, to reflect back and be like yeah. I did the right thing by trying to stick to what mattered, by still going into work, not calling in sick, going out with friends. But when we’re kind of tangled up in all that struggle, it’s really hard to do things like that. So I’m curious to hear, how were you able to face that? So you went through this process of withdrawing from things or considering withdrawing from things, turned that around and decided no. I’m going to do this stuff anyway. What was that process like, and how did you manage to stay committed to following through on that? Especially when you were feeling really tired or really fatigued or really anxious, really frustrated, dealing with all that difficult stuff that tends to come with insomnia? Jessy Baer: Yeah, that’s a good question, because it is a distinctive space to be to having not slept well. And for me, I mean I think for everybody, but sleep very much affects my emotions. It’s so helpful to realize we can still do everything. And we can still live a full life, even with off nights of sleep. But I really don’t feel oftentimes well after sleeping really, really poorly. And so yeah, how do I battle through that? Because it’s not fun, because you know you’re not feeling well. I think for me, again, just kind of the mantra that this is good and also that I’ll be more tired tonight after this. I think also, I think there’s a couple other things. I think one, I also think about the alternative. And when I’m in that state, just being alone and watching Netflix, that doesn’t make me feel great either. I start ruminating. Things that aren’t just kind of doing, I guess, things that technically are associated with kind of taking a break don’t necessarily help. Because after just if I were to just lie in bed all day and try to read or watch Netflix, I might feel, I’ll probably feel even worse after that, for myself. Some people, that could be nourishing. But for me, I’ll probably just start ruminating more. And then I think a big thing for me that helps, and I think this is different for everybody, but I think being able to be open with how … If I’m doing something social or especially if it’s something social like going out with a friend or even work, though, just being able to be emotionally honest with whoever I’m with and just say, “I’m not feeling well today. I’m excited to be with you and to be here, but I’m not feeling well today.” And maybe share a little bit about what’s going on that’s hard, and I found that really helped, because then I felt just a deeper emotional connection with them. I felt less alone. And even though I was feeling awful, I could still more fully engage in that activity with them. But not everyone can hold that so that I could use that for some people and not others. But that really helped. I think on those off nights, days after off nights, if I could be in environments where I could be a little bit emotionally honest about how I’m not feeling well, I could connect more deeply and get more engaged, even though I wasn’t feeling great. Martin Reed: Maybe it’s connected to acknowledgement, just acknowledging that we are not feeling good and that that’s okay for us not to be feeling good in that moment, and then combining it with still doing things that are important. Sometimes it’s like we swap but for and. So for example, I want to go out, but I feel exhausted. So what if we can change it to, I want to go out, and I feel exhausted. Or I’m going to go out, but I feel exhausted. I’m going to go out, and I feel exhausted. So there’s that difficulty there. There’s that stuff that’s around us, that’s showing up, that we wish wasn’t there. We’re acknowledging that, but then we’re still doing what matters, even though there’s that stuff we wish wasn’t there. Even though that is still present, we’re still able to do what matters and do what’s important, even though it’s there. Jessy Baer: Yeah, I really love that, and. And I think that’s something just in life in general I’m working on, is just realizing that two things that are really different can be true at the same time and that holding space for all that complexity and realizing it can live together and all be true, even though it seems at odds and having a kind heart towards all of it. Because yeah, exactly, I feel awful. I’m going to go out, and yeah. And I think it is good, because I acknowledge. I think for me it makes it, when I can’t acknowledge the emotional truth of I feel awful, it makes it worse. Because then I’m putting all this energy towards masking it, and I’m feeling kind of guilty that I feel awful. And yeah, it makes it way harder. It’s like this double arrow. There’s this Buddhist concept of the single arrow is just feeling awful. And then the double arrow is then feeling bad about it and trying to hide it and all these things. And it’s like, why shoot yourself? It’s like double arrow, just the single arrow is bad enough. So anyway, yeah. It’s nice to be able to acknowledge the really negative feelings that happen during insomnia and just hold them and just not try to pretend like you’re happy in that moment. Martin Reed: So this is probably related, but one thing I was curious to hear from you is because I remember when we were working together. Every now and then, when you’d kind of have some difficult nights coming back, you’d have some good nights. Maybe we’d start to feel a little bit more confident. And then some difficult nights happen, and we find that confidence gets shaky again. Maybe this isn’t going to work. I’m broken. I’m beyond help. All those fear and worries and anxieties and frustrations, all that difficult stuff would start to show up again. How did you start to respond to that arrival of all those thoughts and those feelings that are really difficult and uncomfortable in a different way to … Maybe you had once responded to them in the past. Jessy Baer: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think a big thing that was helpful was sort of separating my thoughts from reality. Or just because it is real, I’m really having these thoughts, doesn’t mean it’s true, doesn’t mean these thoughts are true. So I think there is something nice about separating myself from the thoughts. And to be honest, I think it was. As I mentioned earlier, it was just listening to this in those moments, just listening to your podcast, going on a walk, listening to your podcast, reminding myself, everybody goes through this. And I guess that was it. It was also, so it was one, just realizing these thoughts are just because we think something doesn’t mean it’s true. In our mind, this is a habit, a habit of my mind. But then also realizing that this is a very normal part of the process. Had an off night, that’s normal. It would be not normal to not be having an off night. This is actually the normal, correct, right part of the process. This is not a linear process. I’ve listened to a million interviews. Everyone has talked about various types of this kind of thing happening. So that was also, I think, a big thing, is just really instilling off night is not off. It’s actually on. It’s just normal. That’s actually to be expected. And then just crystallizing that with all the interviews that you had done and really hearing how they all had off nights too. And I think now, so I think that was what I did when I was in the height of the insomnia. And then now I have off nights too. I do think I’m a sensitive sleeper in general, but now I don’t even get worried about off nights at all, because it’s always very … I think about why, and there’s all … It’s normally a stressor. I mean there’s still off nights where I don’t even know why. But a lot of times there’s a reason, and I just don’t even think. I don’t think anything of it anymore. I just know that it’s really, really normal to have off nights. Even people who don’t have insomnia, it’s really, really normal to have off nights, depending on what’s going on in your life. And I’m not religious, but there is something about … Lately I have been doing some kind of spiritual work, I guess. And something I have been trying to cultivate is just a bit more trust and faith in the universe and just the twists and turns of life in general. And I think, I don’t know, that’s a hard thing to quantify. That’s really hard to quantify. But I think just having trust and faith in a more abstract, spiritual sense also helped and just really just trusting in the twists and turns of this weird universe and feeling like something, feeling confident that my growth, it’ll result in my growth in that process, I guess. Martin Reed: You said earlier on that you’re finding that you were practicing separating yourself from your thoughts, and I thought that was a really interesting sentence. I’m curious to hear your thought on what you believe that process to be. Just from what we’ve discussed so far, it sounds to me like the way you were separating yourself from your thoughts involved first acknowledging the thought, allowing it to exist, maybe naming it, noticing it and then maybe asking yourself what it’s saying. Is there some meaning? What’s my mind trying to tell me here? So for example, let’s say we have a job interview, and we’re feeling really anxious about it. Well, what’s our mind telling us? It’s probably telling us that this is important to us, that this is meaningful to us. It’s not trying to sabotage us. There’s probably some information inside that thought that’s useful. And then taking all that in and then deciding, how do we want to respond? Because ultimately, we always get to choose how to respond, and we can respond in a way that maybe isn’t using that information well. So let’s use that job interview. We’re feeling anxious. Okay, I’m feeling anxious, because this is a job that I really want. It’s really aligned with my values and who I want to be, but I’m feeling anxious. Maybe I should call in and cancel it. So we’ve got that choice. We can understand what that thought is telling us and then work in a way that is aligned with the life we want to live. So we still go to that interview even though we feel anxious. Or we can use that information and get pushed away from the life we want to live. We really don’t want to experience that anxiety. So we cancel the job interview and move away from that opportunity. So separate myself and my thoughts. Does that sound like the process that you follow, where you’re acknowledging the appearance of the thought? Maybe not spending forever, but what’s it telling me here? Is it trying to tell me something and then choosing how to respond? Would you say that that’s like that’s the gist of it, or was it different for you? Jessy Baer: Yeah, no, I think it had a lot of those components. I think getting to the emotional truth of the thought, less the words of the thought but more, to your point, what is the emotion? Anxiety, okay, I’m feeling anxiety. Why am I feeling anxiety? I think the other thing is the specific … What helped me a little bit is the specific thought. You’re never going to sleep again. Your life is ruined, those really extreme sort of worst case scenarios, spiraling thoughts. I would also just think back to how many times I’ve had those thoughts, and they’ve not been true and that they’ve been wrong. Because my mind will spiral about things besides just sleep, and I think it really helped for me to also realize this is an unreliable narrator. This is not a reliable sort … This is fake news. It actually is like literal fake news. And so to really just think about how many times I’ve had these thoughts, and they’ve been wrong, and the emotional truth is real. And that’s worth exploring, but that the actual iteration of this thought that is so extreme, so intense, this is fake news type headline grabbing sort of extreme, not accurate information. And that also really helped me personally. Martin Reed: I love that idea of it, of the mind being an unreliable narrator. I think that’s great. When you said that, my mind kind of went to maybe watching a talk show. If we just imagine all of our thoughts as being a talk show presenter, so they might say stuff that’s really helpful, really interesting, stuff we agree with. But at the same time, they’re just as likely to say stuff that’s not really helpful, might be completely inaccurate and might be stuff that we don’t agree with. Jessy Baer: Yeah, and it’s so funny, because it seems negative. But it adds such a relief to me, because I have that about other things too. I’ll have the freakout and just the realization that this is an unreliable narrator. It’s just such a relief. I’m like okay, great. I don’t have to believe everything my mind is telling me. That’s awesome. Martin Reed: Yeah, I think it can just serve as another reminder that even when the mind is generating all this different stuff, ultimately we still get to choose how to respond to it, which is really what it comes down to. And anything that we find a useful way of helping separating us from the mind, separating our actions from our thoughts can be really useful. So I’m sure there’s going to be someone listening here that that’s really going to resonate with them. Just next time I hear all those thoughts come up, I’m just going to imagine that it’s someone narrating something, or it’s a news presenter or something. And some of it might be interesting, useful and helpful. Some of it might not be. I’m going to listen. I’m going to acknowledge. I’m going to listen. Then I’m going to decide how to respond. I’m going to decide what to do with that information. Jessy Baer: Yeah, I love that. Martin Reed: Moving forward a little bit, when we were working together, and you felt like you were starting to feel better with everything that was going on, you felt like you were on the right track in terms of creating better conditions for sleep, responding in a more workable way to the difficult nights and the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with those difficult nights. Then your thoughts started to be maybe it’s time for me to leave my parents, return back to the co-op again. And of course then the mind starts to worry. Well now are we going to be back to square one if we do that? Is sleep going to become a problem again? Even though that process of moving back is probably something that was important to you and more aligned with the life you wanted to live, your mind was going to be generating all this concern about sleep. How did you end up dealing with that situation, that kind of apparent conflict between … I want to do this with my life, but my mind is generating all this concern that if I do do that which is important to me, I’m going to be back to square one, or I’m going to really struggle with sleep again. Jessy Baer: Yeah, so that was kind of a plot twist, actually. And that’s another reason why it’s like these things always feel easier to feel grateful for in hindsight. Martin Reed: Absolutely. Jessy Baer: I was not grateful for my insomnia during it. I thought it was ruining my life, and it was just awful. And I couldn’t, not even an ounce of gratitude. But in retrospect, this is a big pivot for me in a moment where it wouldn’t have happened without the insomnia and moving home. Because actually as I was home, I actually did realize that I didn’t, after a long period of feeling stressed of moving back to the community, I actually realized that I didn’t want to go back. And what I wanted to do was actually buy a condo. And I was feeling strong enough. I was feeling like I was sleeping well. I was feeling strong enough. And I also, I think, had the nourishment of being with my parents for a big life decision like that. And so I actually ended up not going back to the community and actually buying a condo. And now I live alone, and I actually love it. And it’s been a huge life change for me and catapulted me into this really next phase of my life. And honestly I don’t think if it weren’t for the insomnia, moving home, having this long space to, one, heal and reflect. And I think actually the insomnia, getting through that gave me confidence that I could do hard things. And I don’t know. I think it built my resilience and helped pave the way for me to make this decision of buying the condo. I think that the insomnia actually really helped build my confidence in making this next big step in my life. Martin Reed: Did you have any concern when you were exploring that idea of buying a place, living alone? Were there any kind of thoughts or concerns coming up from your mind about, well, what’s this going to mean? What if your sleep problems do come back? What are you going to do then? Maybe we should hold off. Was there any of that kind of stuff going on, or did you just feel like, you know what? I’m just going to do this and not give sleep … Sleep didn’t really come up as a second thought for you. Jessy Baer: No, it definitely came up. No, I was quite afraid. And I think I was especially afraid to return back to the community, which is why I got … I was at my parents maybe seven months. And by the end, I was really ready to leave. It needed to end, because I love them, but it was too much. I needed to be with young people, living my independent life. But I think I was, because I was deeply afraid of it coming back, that kind of kept me there a few months more than probably otherwise. And I’m trying to just reflect back on how I dealt with that. I don’t know, I think it was just kind of through the same things I’ve been saying, just listening to your podcast a million times, just doing your program. I think I also did, actually … I’m just remembering. I think I did some special calls with you, where it felt good. It felt good to know you were there, to be honest. I remember, since that was something I thought about too, is I remember I messaged you. And I was like, “I just want to make sure that I can set up a coaching call with you, if I need. Even though this program is over, if I have a relapse, you’re there, and I can set up a call.” And you were like, “Yes.” And I think just knowing that your program was here and you were here was really grounding. I actually remember thinking that during these moves. I need to build up my toolkit. I need to have these fallback plans. I need to make sure resources are here. I need to make sure I can do a 30-minute call with Martin, if I’m having a regression, and i’m freaking out. Yeah, I think knowing I could set up a coaching call with you at any time or not any time, but that was an available resource I could pull on if needed, was really helpful in the transition. Martin Reed: I know that when we were originally working together, you were still taking the medication. You weren’t quite ready to move away from it yet, but at the same time, it was one of your goals to move away from that. Now I’m curious to hear where you are in that process now. Is this something that you’ve completely moved away from? Is it something that you kind of have as a backup plan? And what was that process like for you of moving away from medication as an option to responding to difficult nights or to somehow try and generate sleep? Jessy Baer: Yeah, that’s a great question. So the medication, so the whole time I was on it, I was so fragile, and I just was so scared of just doing anything that might tip the boat. And the medication, it was Trazodone, it wasn’t Ambien or anything. So it was kind of more of an anti-anxiety medication. So I wasn’t experiencing any really negative side effects. So it wasn’t interfering with my life in any big way except for the fact that I don’t want to be on an anti-anxiety medication if I don’t have to be. I don’t want to just be on this for life. That’s an easy thing to just stay on for life all of a sudden. And it’s like, do I need to be on this? But anyway, because of the fear of just … It was really traumatic with the insomnia, and I just really wanted to be safe. And with the move to my new place and everything, I ended up staying on the Trazodone. Gosh, I think I … over a year. I was just not ready. I was not ready to stop it. And it actually took a pretty big sleep event to get me to get off of it, which is I was doing, as I mentioned, I started this master’s program in London. And there was a period of it where we were supposed to go there for two weeks of classes, but because of COVID, we couldn’t. So I was on this insane schedule of starting class at 3:00 in the morning and finishing class at like- Martin Reed: Wow. Jessy Baer: It was awful. I do not recommend it. It is not a good way to learn. But I was on the schedule of having to start in a statistics class, not even fun class. Trying to learn statistics- Martin Reed: Wow. Jessy Baer: … is the worst. But yeah, so 3:00 AM start. I had to completely change my sleep schedule for two weeks and go to bed at 5:00, wake up at 2:00. It was just wild, but I did it. And I remember after that I was just like I do not need medication. I really feel comfortable that I am at a place of maturity with the sleep. And it’s all me and I feel confident enough to stop this. And I just stopped at cold turkey, and I don’t know if that’s the right way to do it. My doctor is like oftentimes it’s better to taper off. But for me, I was just like, I just want to be done with it. And it was an anti-anxiety medication, so I remember I felt a bit of low feelings, kind of not feeling happy, a little bit of the just comedown of it for a couple days. And I think there were, after that, off nights. And I remember thinking, is it the medication? Is it not? But it’s like no, it was just life. Off nights are normal, and I think I’m so happy that I’ve been off it. I’ve been off it since December. And yeah, I just feel like it would’ve been so easy to just stay on it and have it be something I was on for five years. Because again, it wasn’t really strongly having any super negative side effect. So yeah, but it took a moment of in incredible sleep empowerment to stop it, because it was scary. It was a very scary thing to do. Martin Reed: And I think it’s something we only get from experience, from experiencing that for ourselves, experiencing successfully doing something that’s challenging but important and that’s meaningful but difficult. It can really just be so empowering and help us again recognize that we can still do things that are important, even when we might be struggling with sleep, or we might be struggling with difficult thoughts, or we might be feeling tired and fatigued or feeling like we can’t concentrate. It’s actually quite remarkable, what we can actually achieve. And when we experience that, maybe we realize that we maybe don’t have to put so much pressure on ourselves to get a certain amount or type of sleep or to be feeling or thinking in a certain way in order for that to happen. Jessy Baer: Totally. And as you’re talking, I just remembered one other thing about getting off the medication is I feel proud of myself for getting through insomnia. I feel like empowered by it, except I do feel like when I was on the medication the whole time, it’s like you did all this stuff, but then there’s the medication. And I feel like I couldn’t give myself full credit for all I had done and feel truly empowered in it. Because I was still on this medication, even though I knew the medication wasn’t doing anything. I really could tell it wasn’t doing anything. But still it was robbing me of being able to take full credit for everything I had done. So yeah, that was also just another benefit, just being able to really, fully say I have done this and without medication, or without this kind of lingering thought of, well, I guess I had this other thing too. Martin Reed: We can still practice this new approach, even when we’re taking medication. So that’s one thing, when I’m working with clients, if they’re taking medication, it really doesn’t … I don’t encourage clients one way or another, because to me it doesn’t really matter quite so much. What really matters is, we’re just practicing a new, more workable approach to insomnia. We’re changing our behaviors, practicing new habits, and we can do all that practice, whether we’re taking medication or not. And then once we feel ready, maybe we’ll have that big, insightful moment like you described. Or maybe we just get to that point where we feel ready to make changes. Then we can talk to our doctors and come up with a plan about that. But really the medication isn’t really, doesn’t have to be a hindrance to making changes. What’s important is just practicing making changes, if our current approach isn’t working or isn’t proving to be helpful. Jessy Baer: Yeah, I totally agree. And as I mentioned, I was on the medication over a year, and I needed to do that. I was not ready to come off of it. It was like the thought of it was … I really needed to wait and listen to myself until the thought of going off it wasn’t highly stressful. And at that moment, I was able to. But it was a long, long period, where the thought of going off it was highly stressful. And I think that bringing your “and” again it’s like I was on the medication, and I was doing all this stuff and sleeping really well. That doesn’t have to be something that is an either or with the medication. And I actually remember sometimes I would … Yeah, I was very pro … I felt very good about being on the medication during everything. I didn’t think it was a bad thing. So I guess maybe my ending mark, my ending comment might have made it seem like I thought the medication wasn’t good and was holding me back from full empowerment. But no, I’m such a proponent of just being gentle and kind and bringing in the medication, if necessary. Because it was, for me, quite necessary. And again, I took a long time to get off of it, and I felt okay about that. I felt that was good, that I did that. Martin Reed: Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve talked about that change in the relationship we have with sleep itself, nighttime wakefulness, all the thoughts and the feelings that come with it, practicing separating our thoughts and our feelings from our actions a little bit, maybe gaining some independence from them. Was there anything else that you can think of, maybe from a behavioral standpoint, any new habits you developed or changes that you’ve made, that we haven’t spoken about ,that you feel were really helpful? Jessy Baer: One is, three things I’m grateful for from the day or three highlights from the day. And I don’t even articulate it very nicely, but I just jot it down. And then I feel like I fall asleep thinking of positive things from the day and feeling more grateful. And I think that helps for me, having that practice every day. It’s really nice reflection at the end of the day before bed. Martin Reed: So what’s an average night like for you these days, Jessy? Jessy Baer: Yeah, an average night for me these days is I eat dinner pretty late, so I’ll probably finish dinner around 9:30, 10:00. And then I’ll go into my room, and from probably maybe 10:30 to 11:30 is wind down time. So I’ll do the same things that you recommended. I still need wind down time, even not having insomnia. I find that period really important, especially if I’ve been out in the evening or done anything. I’ll read a book, mostly. And normally it’ll take … I don’t know, I’ll fall asleep, and then I still wake up in the middle of the night. I’ll wake up a couple times but just like normal, go to the bathroom, fall back asleep. I’ll probably fall asleep by 12:00 and normally I’ll just sleep eight hours, and it’s just normal cycle of sleep, typically. Martin Reed: How about your days? Any changes there since you’ve got to this point where insomnia is kind of more behind you in the rearview mirror rather than right in front of your face, blocking your view of the entire world around you? Jessy Baer: Overall, I think the biggest thing that’s impacted me, which we’ve already discussed, is that if I’m not feeling well, regardless of whether it’s sleep, maybe it’s just other things that have been upsetting, or I’m just feeling depressed or anxious or whatever. I still do the things that I had scheduled, or I still plan to do things. And for me that really … And I think this is good for me. I think this is a good way to work through these, this negative, not feeling well state. And that, I think, has really helped for me personally in my life. And again being kind, not doing anything aggressive and just forcing myself to do hard things when I’m not ready. But I think overall, just the mentality of, if you’re feeling low, whether it’s sleep or otherwise, getting out and doing stuff tends to help. That’s actually a good thing. That’s definitely helped improve my life, I think. Martin Reed: Great. Well Jessy, I’m really grateful for all the time that you shared to come on and share your story. Like we were talking about earlier, they’re so helpful for everyone listening. And I just know that everyone listening to this is going to be taking something away from our conversation. So I’m really grateful for you coming on and sharing your experience. But I do have one last question for you, which I would be really grateful for you to answer, if you’ve got a few more minutes to spare. And it’s this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening, and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re just beyond help, they feel like they can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them? Jessy Baer: First, I would just say, you are not alone. You are not alone. There’s so many people in the exact same situation who feel the exact same way. And it’s a really normal situation that a lot of people are grappling with. And two, just as much as you can, trust in the process and just the ups and downs, the twists and turns, the unexpected moments. Just trust in the process, and you will move through this insomnia episode. And you will, I think, do really well and just trust. Martin Reed: All right, well I think that’s a great note to end on. So thanks again, Jessy, for taking the time out for your day to come on and share your stories. Really appreciate it, thank you. Jessy Baer: I’ve so appreciated hearing all the stories on your podcast. As I’ve mentioned, they’ve been life changing for me. So I’m so grateful I could come on and share mine. Martin Reed: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin Reed: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin Reed: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin Reed: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

A couple of years ago, Maria experienced anxiety and panic attacks. When she didn’t sleep for over 72 hours, she felt that something was wrong with her. She feared that the chemistry of her brain had changed and her days became dominated by sleep-related thoughts and worries. Medication didn’t seem to help. Maria felt lonely, confused, and afraid. She felt that she couldn’t even leave the house because things were so difficult. She withdrew from doing things that she enjoyed. She found it hard to focus on anything other than sleep. Feeling completely stuck, Maria committed to a new approach. She started to leave the house and went for short walks — even when her mind told her that wasn’t possible. Taking baby steps, she started to do more of the things that mattered to her. Perhaps the most helpful change Maria made was facing the fear of insomnia. Instead of trying to fight or avoid insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings associated with it, Maria started to allow it to exist. She would even start to welcome it, whenever it chose to show up — and, by doing this, Maria found that insomnia started to lose its power and influence. She soon discovered that she didn’t need medication to generate sleep. That she didn’t need to do anything to make sleep happen. And, that trying to fight or avoid insomnia and the difficult thoughts and feelings that often come with it only set her up for an ongoing struggle that made everything more difficult. Maria realized that insomnia’s survival depends on how we respond to it. And, she is 100% sure that with the right approach, no matter how bad your situation might be right now, you can recover. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin Reed: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin Reed: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin Reed: Okay, Maria, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Maria Koziol: Absolutely, no problem. My pleasure. Martin Reed: I’m really excited to have you on. Let’s just start right at the beginning. When did your sleep problems begin and what do you think caused those initial issues with sleep? Maria Koziol: If we’re talking about the trigger, I think it was a very complex case. There was not a singular cause or trigger that I could point out. I think I haven’t even been able to recognize it yet, like 100%, what was that? I just think it all started at the point when I actually started to have different mental health problems. That was at the beginning of 2021 when all of a sudden, I started to have panic attacks and anxiety attacks, when I had never ever experienced such things before. I was trying to figure out why at that time, why the beginning of 2021? I hadn’t had any major tragic events at that time, so this is still kind of a mystery to me. But I talked about it with my psychotherapist and we’ve come to the conclusion that it must have been for the reason that I’ve had a lot of personal issues that were like, I didn’t really have a chance to talk about them so they accumulated over time. And then on top of that, we had COVID, the outbreak of COVID. I had to experience loneliness and detachment from environment at that time. Also, problems with work as well because I wasn’t sure if I’m going to be able to keep my position at work, because of COVID. So I think there was a lot of different things that started all of my problems, and insomnia came along with it. Insomnia came around beginning of 2021. That’s how I would describe the beginnings, how I would describe the trigger. I know it doesn’t really point out any specific trigger, but it’s kind of hard for me to say, to be honest. Martin Reed: I think everyone’s experience is a little bit different there. Some people have this really clear and obvious pinpoint and they know exactly when it began, what caused it. For other people, it can be a bit mysterious. The trigger itself is usually less of an issue. It’s more to do with how we’re responding to that sleep disruption when it turns up. So when all this difficulty arrived, what was sleep like for you? What was a typical night like if there was such a thing? Maria Koziol: I would have long streaks of not sleeping, and the longest I had was I think more than 72 hours when I didn’t sleep for the whole three or four days. At this point, I was absolutely anxious and freaked out. I hadn’t really slept. That was the longest streak of not sleeping for me in my whole life, so at that very point, I thought that something must be wrong with me. And I’ve heard a lot of people on your podcast saying the same, so I also could identify with them because when insomnia comes to your life, you feel as though something must be wrong with you. How can you not sleep? All of the other people are sleeping. How can you just lose your ability to sleep? I just felt as though something in my brain, like chemistry of my brain, has changed permanently, and I was super anxious about that. So, how would my sleep look like? I had the long streaks of not sleeping and then following that, I would have maybe a microdose of sleep the next night, like two hours, and then another streak of not sleeping like two days, and then maybe again two hours of sleep. Sometimes I had five, six hours of sleep during this period, but then it would usually be followed by, again, not sleeping or sleeping in micro doses. So that was a nightmare, I remember that so well. I could lay for hours in bed and just focus so much on trying to get asleep that it never happened. The more I focus on trying to fall asleep, it never ever happened. I would usually spend hours and hours tossing around, tossing over in bed. Martin Reed: What about your days? Were you finding this difficulty, the struggle with sleep was affecting your days as well? Maria Koziol: Yeah, of course. At the beginning when this was all new to me, the insomnia thing happened so suddenly and I was so disorientated, I didn’t know how to deal with it. I was so confused about all of this especially since before, I had never struggled with sleep, ever. I would fall asleep very easily anywhere, so that was all the more strange. About my days, I would be all shook up and I could cry over simple things, like a glass would break and I would burst out in tears. I was even shouting at my family members for no reason. I was crying. I was super emotional. Physically-wise, I was able to function normally. I could even go work out, to be honest, but the only thing stopping me from that was that my mind wouldn’t stop running around the thought if I will be able to sleep that night or not, or how I didn’t sleep the last night. My whole day was dominated by the sleep thing because I couldn’t stop thinking about it. Regardlessly of what was going on in my life, even if maybe I won lottery, I couldn’t probably be even enjoying that because I would be still thinking about how I am not able to sleep that night. That was manipulating my whole way of thinking. I felt like I couldn’t be really enjoying the activities I used to enjoy as well anymore. And to be honest, I think the worst part of it was the loneliness that came along with it. The feeling of being alone and the feeling of your family members and friends not having a smallest clue about what you’re going through because they have never experienced insomnia. I know they have been trying to help me and comfort me, but they had no idea about what I was going through. My mom would usually tell me, “Okay, don’t worry. If you didn’t go sleep that night, you would probably go sleep the next night.” And I’m like, “But you don’t get it. I wasn’t sleeping for three days, what if I die?” No one could actually understand me. No one could relate to it, because none of my friends ever experienced insomnia, none of my family members ever experienced insomnia, so the feeling of loneliness that no one actually understands you, that was also a very big part of how I felt during the day, if that makes sense? Martin Reed: Yeah, it makes complete sense, and I’m sure it’s going to make complete sense everyone listening to this as well. You mentioned that physically, you felt like I could probably still work out or still do activities that I had planned or that are important to me, but at the same time, your mind is like, well, can you still do that? Do you have energy to do it? Are you going to enjoy it? Are you going to be able to focus on it? How did you actually end up responding? Did you still do things that you had planned or did you start to withdraw from those kind of activities because of all this mental chatter that was going on? Maria Koziol: Yeah. Of course, before I met you and your content, I would definitely withdraw from everything. I would stop doing what I liked. I would stop even leaving house because I felt like absolute waste, and I just refrain to do anything. I just did the bare minimum all day. And by the way, I couldn’t really focus on anything else other than thinking if I will sleep today. At the same time, because I was so obsessed about the sleep thing, and I’m very emotional and expressive person so I would usually say to people very sincerely what is in my mind instead of actually keeping that inside me. So I would tell all my family and friends about how I feel and about what I’m going through, and then I noticed people started to withdraw from me as well because I couldn’t stop talking about just one thing and they were fed up with this, which I do understand right now. But at that time, it was also very disappointing for me because I felt like they didn’t want to hang out with me anymore because all I could talk about was sleep, and the lack of sleep. I started to lose friends at this point. Of course, not family, but my family would also be kind of… I felt as though I shouldn’t really talk to them about this anymore because they didn’t express this explicitly, but I felt like they’re also fed up and helpless because I would usually talk, call my mom and cry over the phone how I can’t sleep, but she couldn’t do anything. She was just like, “I’m sorry, I can’t help you. I don’t know how to help you.” So, that was quite serious at that time. Before I actually met you and your content, I was completely lost with this. Martin Reed: Did you find that by taking that approach you did actually start to feel better? Or did you feel about the same? Or did it tend to make things more difficult? What was your actual experience like? What were the results of withdrawing and doing less? Maria Koziol: The results of actually withdrawing and doing less, I would just be stuck in the bubble of thinking about sleep. I would spend all my day in bed and freak out at the thought of the moment when I will have to go to bed. And I remember, whenever it was becoming darker outside, I would freak out completely because that means it’s the nighttime, so this is my nightmare time. This is where I will be suffering for the next seven, eight hours while everybody else will be asleep. Basically all my days would be staying in bed, working from bed as well on my laptop because I do have this possibility to work remotely. However, I wouldn’t even go for a walk. I wouldn’t do anything. It almost felt like I was stuck in a bubble and not do anything, and just await this nightmare coming in the evening. Martin Reed: When you picked up on this idea that we talk about a lot on these podcast episodes of trying to still do some of the stuff that matters, what were your thoughts on that? Were you thinking, no, that just sounds impossible? Or were you thinking, I’m going to give it a try? What was your response to that idea and how did you go about changing to start reintroducing daily activities back into your life? Maria Koziol: I think if I had heard it from a very random person, like my friend, like, “Hey, go enjoy your activities and still try to enjoy your life anyway,” I would think this person has no idea what they’re talking about. This is absolutely stupid and I’m not going to do it. They don’t know what risk is involved. But when I heard it from you, of course I studied your content before and you were a very reassuring and convincing person for me, also with a very, very huge knowledge about the topic and certified as well, so you were very convincing for me. So when I heard it from you, I thought, if he’s saying that, I need to try it, because it did sound a little bit, hmm, I’m not sure if it’ll work for me, but I still wanted to give it a try. That was my approach when I heard it from you. Probably might have been different if I heard it from someone super random, like my friend or someone who I met on the street. Martin Reed: And what was that process like for you? Did you take little baby steps, maybe start by getting outside each day, or did you just dive right in and try to do everything as though insomnia didn’t exist? I’m curious to what your approach was. Maria Koziol: As far as I recall, I think that was more like baby steps. I started with going out for a walk, going to the shop instead of ordering a delivery, just walking a dog out. And then it came to the point when after two weeks, I was actually meeting my friends out in the restaurant, which was inconceivable for me at the very beginning because after the night of not sleeping, I was like, that’s not possible. That’s not possible to meet anyone. That’s absolutely not happening. And then I actually saw that it is possible. Okay, you won’t be your best form, you won’t be all shiny and glamorous, but friends wouldn’t even notice. To be honest, when I showed up without the night of sleep, no one would even notice that I wasn’t sleeping. No one even said anything. I looked normal and I kind of behaved normal as well. At this point I started to realize that if they didn’t notice that, I think it’s actually worth going out. No one will notice that anyway, so let’s just continue doing that. That’s basically how it went, I think from the baby steps up until the huge steps. Martin Reed: Did you find that it was really hard at first to get yourself outside, going for walks, being in social situations again? Or did you find that straight from day one, for example, as soon as you started to do stuff like that, you noticed that this was kind of an approach that was maybe more helpful, compared to doing less stuff? Maria Koziol: The very beginnings, it felt awkward, but I knew I was doing this to improve my situation so I did really have a lot of hope related to it. It did feel a bit awkward and difficult at the very beginning, but it got easier and easier over time. Logically if you see something is working, you trust it even more and you go into it deeper, so that was how it looked like for me, if that makes sense? Martin Reed: Absolutely. Were you finding that your brain was generating all different stories about this or thoughts that maybe weren’t very helpful? Maybe it was telling you things like, so you went for a walk today, that might have felt good today, but are you going to be able to do it tomorrow? Is this going to work? You can’t do this. Maybe let’s stay at home. Did you find lots of thoughts and stories like that turning up? Maria Koziol: Definitely. Yeah, exactly. I’m even surprised you’re saying this as though you were reading my mind at the time. I would always question myself after… There would be positive thoughts and two seconds after, these little demonic thoughts that are like, fine, you can do it today, what about tomorrow? You shouldn’t be doing this. It’s not good for your health. So definitely, I did have a lot of these thoughts. It was super, super difficult to overcome them. It was a constant battle in my head. It was about questioning my actions all the time in my head. Yeah, definitely. Martin Reed: I think it’s interesting that you feel like I just accessed your brain there and pulled out those stories, even though we haven’t talked about this before this episode, and just because that’s how the human brain is wired. It generates thoughts like that, stories like that. Ironically, as it’s doing its job of trying to look out for us, it’s trying so hard, it’s being a little bit unhelpful and getting in the way. And it can be a little bit like these maybe two little mini brains, one on each shoulder. One is kind of reassuring, and yes, you can do this, and the other one’s like, are you sure you can do this? Maybe you can do it now, but what about tomorrow? And so we are kind of caught in the middle of that. But I think where it can be so helpful, the process you described, even if it is baby steps, just kind of reintroducing stuff, doing stuff again, especially things that are important to us and meaningful to us, is we can prove to ourselves that even when our brain is doing whatever it wants to do, helpful thoughts, unhelpful thoughts, true thoughts, false thoughts, whatever it’s doing, whatever it’s churning out, we can still control the body. We can still choose how we respond to those thoughts. So even if the brain says, you cannot go for a walk today, you’re too tired. Physically, we can still stand up, put our shoes on and go out of the door. That’s another reason why I think it’s helpful to start getting active again, is because we recognize and reinforce this idea that no matter what our brain is telling us, we still get to choose to respond. And every time we respond in a way that’s helpful or workable, we’re reminding ourselves of that. And maybe we are less likely to get tangled up in trying to battle with our mind because after all, do we need to battle with our mind when we are constantly reminding ourselves that we can respond however we like, regardless of what the mind is doing? Maria Koziol: Yeah, absolutely. Martin Reed: Just rewinding a little bit, you talked about when the sleep disruption first turned up, one way you tried to deal with it, which is completely understandable, is to do less because you just feel, this is overtaking my life, I don’t have the energy to do anything. I don’t look right, I’m going to make mistakes, all of that difficult stuff. What other things had you tried in an attempt to improve your sleep to get things back on track, that now you’re able to look back, maybe weren’t effective or weren’t quite so helpful? Maria Koziol: The first thing I can list were medications. There was a lot of medications that only worsened my state at the very end. I was taking Zolpidem at some point, even SSRI. Then once sleeping pills stopped working because I was very quickly addicted to them… When I think about it back two years ago, it’s just so dreadful to think when I saw this pack of pills, I was running to them just to take it, like I couldn’t wait for the moment to take these pills. And never in my life I thought I could be addicted to something, and then it turns out I’m so easily addicted to these pills. So I got freaked out and I called my psychiatrist and I told them, “Hey, can we get off these pills? I’m just frightened about how it might end up because I feel like I’m super addicted. And by the way, they’re not working anymore because my tolerance went up. I started off with half of the pill and now I need to take two, which is not even an allowed dose, I think.” My psychiatrist, they started to prescribe me even weirder things like antipsychotic medication that was used for treatment of schizophrenia, for example. I think it was called quetiapine, something like that. It was an absolute disaster. I was going for holidays and then my whole suitcase will be filled up with different types of antipsychotic medication, sleeping pills. I felt as though I just walked out of a psychiatric ward. It was a absolutely terrible experience and it lasted for a couple months that I was taking the pills. None of these pills actually worked. With the sleeping pills, they helped me fall asleep initially, of course, but afterwards, I would just need more and more to fall asleep. If I stopped taking them, I was in an even worse place that I was before starting to take them. That was not a solution to the problem, not at all, and I kind of blamed the psychiatrist for that as well because they knew that they shouldn’t have been prescribing me this as a long-term solution. And even though they knew it perfectly because it’s an obvious fact, it’s a short-term solution for insomnia, not a long-term, they kept prescribing me this all the time. Whenever I asked, no questions, just give her the pills, get her off my phone and give her the pills. So it wasn’t working anymore, and not to mention that I started to feel super, super depressed the day after. And then I started reading articles about how Zolpidem is linked to creating depression. There were even cases studied of people that committed suicide and didn’t struggle with any mental health issues before taking Zolpidem. I think it’s very important to mention that because it’s never going to do any good. Pills are never the solution for insomnia. I think it would never do any good, long-term. Short-term, yes, they’re working, but it’s just for a limited period of time and then you would need more. You would get addicted. You would develop other things like depression maybe as a side effect, which I started to develop, because I was also scared that they might have influenced my brain chemistry long-term somehow. Some medication, psychiatrist, I would usually call different psychiatrists like three times a week. It was a very helpless cry for help, and I never felt as though they would really listen to me. I just felt as though they take notes, prescribe something, and you would never hear from them again. When I tried to outreach to them, I remember they prescribed me this SSRI, I’m not sure what was that exactly? I can’t recall now. But they prescribed me the SSRI and then I took it, and it was like five milligrams. How I felt, I can’t even describe it. I was super scared about how I’m feeling so I immediately called the doctor and I was trying to get in touch with him like, “Hey, please help me. I’m scared. I don’t know what’s going on with my body. I feel as though my receptors are not working.” I couldn’t even read an email. I was taking my pen and going with my pen to my fridge. It felt absolutely odd, so I tried to call them. They didn’t pick up, or they said to me, “Okay, you can schedule an appointment in a week. I can’t give you anything right now.” So there was no support from them. I felt as though they would just prescribe me pills and didn’t care what happened to me afterwards. So, that were the things that I’ve tried and they only had a detrimental impact on my mental health. Martin Reed: I’m curious to know, all the doctors that you spoke to, did anyone suggest alternatives to medication or offer you any advice as to how you might be able to deal with this without taking medication, or even make some changes while taking medication that might also prove to be helpful? Or were you just only offered medication as the only option that was available to you? Maria Koziol: Yeah. Most of them would actually only prescribe me pills without mentioning any other recourse. Some of them were pointing out at the CBT-I therapy. Some of them were like, “Here are the pills, but make sure you actually sign up for the therapy because this is a long-term solution.” So yeah, some of them did, but I feel like most of them were just prescribing pills without mentioning anything else. Martin Reed: When you heard about CBT-I, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, was that something that you’d heard of before? Is it something you explored or looked into? Were you able to research anything about that? Maria Koziol: Not specifically for insomnia. I knew that kind of therapy existed. However, I would more link that to depression, for example, and not really to insomnia. I’ve never heard of treating insomnia with that before, to be honest, so that was new to me. But at the time, I already actually met you and your content. I had you, so I didn’t really have to have any other help because it was helping to have your content to read and listen to you every day. Martin Reed: Let’s talk a little bit now about what happened next on your journey, the new approach that you explored. What were some changes that you made that you are now able to look back on and think that this was really what helped me start moving away from struggling with insomnia and started to create better conditions for sleep, reduce the influence it had over my life? Where did that start? You’ve already mentioned starting to do more things, be more active during the day. What other behavioral changes, new habits or old habits did you bring back that you’ve found to be particularly helpful? Maria Koziol: I remember after I’ve seen your video where you were talking about how we are never going to lose the ability to sleep, that was a milestone in my process because for some reason, that was so simple but it sounded so reassuring for me and convincing that I just trusted you 100%. And from the day I saw that video, I would usually also replay it in the next days as well. But from this moment, I just thought, he’s right, it’s true. I shouldn’t be freaking out about this, and you also provided some kind of evidence or lack of evidence that chronic insomnia can cause any health problems. There was no evidence of that as well. I feel like from this point, it all started to change. First of all, I stopped obsessing about whether I’m going to go to sleep tonight or not. The method I have used, I would describe it as facing the fear or facing the pain. Previously, before I heard your video about what I just said, I would usually freak out when the night was coming, the bedtime was coming. I would run away from the fear. And the thing with fear is that when you run away from it, it gets bigger and bigger and holds you like a monster, but when you face it, it shrinks. So I know it may sound very odd to someone who didn’t apply this, but I applied this method in my life when it comes to insomnia and panic attacks, and it really works. It really works. When you face the fear, it just shrinks, and over time, it actually disappears. And the same applies to insomnia. There’s something I read recently in a book, and it said, it stuck in my head, it said that pain and fear is not absolute, and your experience of fear and pain changes relative to how you react to it. And I think it’s perfect to describe the attitude we should have to insomnia. That is a great things to say, I’m not sure if you will agree with me, but this simple method I think has actually cured me. Your reaction to insomnia is something that essentially is the most important thing. It is all about how you react to this. And then once I understood it, of course, it wasn’t like, oh, I just started applying this method that I was cured the other day. No, of course not. It took time. It took quite a lot of time to apply it 100%. But over time, I really stopped fearing the lack of sleep, stopped fearing the nighttime. Even though I wasn’t sure if I’m going to fall asleep, I would remind myself of the video you posted and I was like, okay, cool. Well, I won’t die anyway. I won’t sleep, but that’s it. I won’t die. Nothing bad will happen. I will live. Nothing bad will happen. And then I was able to change my thoughts over this. Of course, the bad thoughts would always pop up again. They would always try to devaluate what I was just saying to me. It takes time, of course. It’s not going to be overnight change, but it really works. It really works. When you maybe stop fearing insomnia, it’ll eventually vanish, evaporate because it will have no force over you. It will just lose its forces. About the behavioral changes, what I mentioned so far, I started going out more, doing more activities, but I really started to not care anymore about sleep. I was like, well, I might not fall asleep this day, but it will not kill me. I will live, I not die, and there’s no proof someone ever died from lack of sleep. That was the same with my panic attacks. That was the same treatment that I used, and I was able to overcome them as well. I was like, okay, cool. I’ll have a panic attack, but there’s just a sensation. Nothing is actually physically happening in my body. It’s just a sensation of your thoughts and what’s going on in your head. There’s not nothing endangering your life at this point. So I think that was super relieving, this knowledge that the less you care, that the less powerful insomnia will become. I would say that was maybe my behavioral approach. Martin Reed: Do you remember the title of the book that you just shared that quote from? Just think people might be interested. Maria Koziol: Yeah, of course. That book wasn’t about insomnia, by the way, but I feel like it’s kind of connected to the way of how you might treat insomnia and anxiety and panic attacks, so it’s great. It’s called The Tools and the author is Phil Stutz. I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing his surname in a correct way, but the book is called The Tools. You can buy it on Amazon. Martin Reed: Going back to this idea of facing the fear, if someone’s listening to this and they think, I think this is something that I want to try. I want to face this fear. I want to face this fear of insomnia. I want to face the fear of what tonight might bring. How do we actually go about facing that fear? If you were to give someone a list of actions to take that might help them face the fear, what might that look like? How do we implement that in practice, do you think? Maria Koziol: I know it’s super difficult. It’s very, very difficult even describe or maybe implement at the very beginning, but I promise you it’s doable. What I would usually do is… Let’s try to imagine that you won’t fall asleep again tonight. Try to imagine that you’re laying in bed for four or five hours, everyone else is asleep, but you’re struggling and the next day is just waiting in a few hours. You’ll need to live through the next day, but you didn’t have any sleep. Imagine you’re in that situation and let this thought be in your body, flow through your body and just say to yourself, bring it on, I want to experience this. I want to experience the worst that can happen. Bring it on. I’m ready. And you know what? When I said it to myself, I would feel like I actually get less anxious, and then I felt like a bit more powerful. I would stop thinking about it. I’m like, I’m going to continue right now with my day. I’m going to go relax, watch TV. Then if I’m going to go to bed and the sleep doesn’t happen, I’m ready for it. I’m 100% ready for it, and I’m not going to be freaked out. I know it’s super difficult for people that are suffering with insomnia because they feel as though they’re dying, that they’re so desperate. I know where you are. I promise you, I’ve been there. It’s absolutely dreadful, but there’s hope. There’s always a way out, and you can do that. You can’t die from it, I promise you. There’s no way you can die from it. Nothing can happen to you. I’m sorry, I don’t really have instruction on how to actually apply this. It’s so difficult. I think it’s the battle that you need to have with your thoughts. Martin Reed: I think really what you described is moving away from the struggle, so moving away from trying to make sleep happen, trying to remove certain thoughts and feelings from your brain, but taking an approach where you’re acknowledging everything that you are thinking, everything that you are feeling, and you’re becoming maybe more of an observer instead of someone that’s trying to fight it. Or at the very least, you’re kind of removing the dam that you might be trying to build to stop all of that stuff arriving. But what happens when we build a dam? It all accumulates behind that brick wall and eventually it all comes overflowing anyway. I think what you’ve described is moving away from that struggle, just allowing this difficult stuff to exist, especially if your experience anyway tells you that you can’t really get rid of it, and just allowing it to flow through you, as difficult as that might be. Maria Koziol: I know, exactly, but it’s actually really working. It was the same for my panic attacks. When I first heard this method, I was like, I’m not sure if it’s going to work but let’s try it. When I had a panic attack and when I would try to calm down, it would only get worse, always. And then once I remember, I was on the airplane and that was a very long flight, like 11 hours, 12 hours, I had a huge panic attack on the plane. That was so frightening to the point that I was actually about to exit the plane, like at the boarding, I was about to actually tell the flight attendant, “Sorry, I think I’m not going because I can’t… I have a panic attack.” But I said to myself, you’re going to get through this. It happened to you a lot of times. It’s not going to kill you, it never killed you. And then the panic attack came, and instead of trying to calm down as I would usually do, like oh my God, I need to calm down. Everybody will notice. Oh my God, nobody can notice that. I just felt as though this is normal. You’re just having a panic attack. Feel it, bring it on. I want to feel it even more. Just try to feel it with all of your body. Let it let this feeling flow through you and it will actually calm down after a while, after three, two minutes. And the same was with my insomnia. Let’s say that it was bedtime and it was like midnight, then 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM, I’m still not sleeping. Normally, at the very beginning, I would freak out. I would be watching my clock all the time and just getting crazy, whereas after applying this method of not avoiding the fear and just facing it, I was rather laying in bed and thinking, well, that’s okay. Eventually I’m probably going to fall asleep, even if it’s microdose. I’m just going to watch a movie right now. There’s nothing bad happening. I’m just going to watch a movie and let the bad feeling flow through my body. I’m not sleeping well. Okay, what can I do about this? Nothing. This is how I try to explain this to myself. And you need to remember, the bad thoughts will always pop up. Even sometimes they will try to devaluate what you are thinking, and they will try to push you away from your path, but those are just thoughts. Those are just thoughts. They will always pop up. It’s just thoughts. I think that would be my advice. Martin Reed: There’s just so much great stuff there. I’m curious to hear, I think you already mentioned this, but even taking this approach of facing the fear, allowing the difficult thoughts and feelings to show up, allowing the possibility of insomnia to show up, it’s not like, I’m going to do this and then all of a sudden all these difficult thoughts permanently disappear, and all of a sudden you’re having great nights of sleep again. I’m curious to know what the process or the timeline was like for you? Was this something that you found that you had to practice for days, weeks, or even months in order to notice that it was helping? I’m just curious to hear what timeline from your own experience? Maria Koziol: To be honest, that was when I started using this method. The behavioral change, that was quick. That was like a few days and I was back on track with my sleeping. I was like, wow, I slept seven hours. Wow, it really worked. But then when I had a bad night after a few days, I would have a rebound of anxiety like, ah, you see, it’s actually not working. So my bad thoughts would tell me, ha ha, you are so confident, but you’re never out of this. You’ll be stuck with insomnia for the rest of your life, and there’s no cure for you. I would have a rebound sometimes, but then I would again apply the method of what we were talking about just now, and then it would again improve for a few days, where I would have a rebound as well and then I would apply this and that would improve as well. So I would say that it took me… To fully recover from insomnia, is that what you’re asking for? Or just right after applying the method? Martin Reed: I would say, maybe where you got to a point where you felt, I’m free of it, I’m independent. I can live my life independently of how I sleep. I’m not so much tangled up in the struggle. It’s not something that has a big influence over my life anymore. Maria Koziol: I feel like that would be maybe a month or so when I got this confidence about, I’m actually able to recover from insomnia. But at this point, I was sure that it would at some point come back, but then I had the tools to defend myself and to approach it in a right way. I think the very, very big lesson for me was something that you’ve been talking about a lot in your podcast and in your content on YouTube, that the most important thing is actually your approach to the sleep and your approach to insomnia, and how you react to it will essentially influence how it will develop. So, that was something that was super big lesson for me, the attitude. When I started having insomnia, when it happened in my life, my attitude was anxious fighting. I was super confused. I was freaked out. I was battling the thoughts all the time. I was trying to fight the fact that I’m not sleeping, forcing myself to fall asleep, which is impossible to do it. With pills, it’s possible, but there’s no way you can force yourself to sleep. So my initial approach to that, my reaction to insomnia was completely fighting with that. And then when I changed to accepting it and just acknowledging it, it was shrinking more and more, and eventually it disappeared. Martin Reed: I like that way you said that it felt like it was shrinking and shrinking, because one of my favorite analogies about the insomnia struggle is we have this big scary thing called insomnia, and we want to fix it, we want to get rid of it, so we want to study it to figure it out so we can get rid of it. So we might pick up a magnifying glass, and we’ve got the insomnia here, and we are just staring at the insomnia through this magnifying glass. And of course, when we look through a magnifying glass, that thing is really big. And when we are focused just on looking through the magnifying glass, we don’t see anything else around us. All we see is that thing that we’re staring at. I think when we start to move away from the struggle, it’s like instead of prodding and poking at this thing under the magnifying glass, what we’re actually doing is putting the magnifying glass down. So the insomnia might still be there, but now because we put the magnifying glass down, our field of view is so much bigger. We can now see the world around us. We might be better able to engage in the world around us, and we free up our attention to do more of the things that matter rather than everything being consumed by what we see through that magnifying glass. I just think that aligned with what you were saying, where it kind of shrunk. That’s just what reminded me of that. When we’re able to recognize that this thing is here, maybe I can’t directly get rid of it, but what I can do is dilute it by adding other things to my life, doing good stuff. It starts to lose its influence, so it feels like it gets smaller. And even when it’s present, if something loses its influence over us, maybe then it becomes less of a problem that we feel we need to address. And when it comes to sleep and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that can come with it, the less engaged we are with trying to control that stuff, the more it’s able to take care of itself and get back on track by itself. Maria Koziol: Definitely. It’s so true because I felt like I just disempowered insomnia by taking away the importance of it. At some point, I just started to ignore it, like the screaming of insomnia, just ignored it and I felt like it devaluated the whole thing and then it becomes smaller and smaller and smaller, and eventually actually disappeared. Martin Reed: One thing you touched upon was that you’re not using sleeping pills anymore. I’m curious to hear what your process was to moving away from them, because sometimes it feels like they’re the only thing that we have available to us, that maybe we need them, otherwise no sleep is going to happen. Or we need to always have them as an option, just in case. What was that process like for you in terms of moving away from them and not even having them available anymore? Maria Koziol: I feel like it lasted very long until I actually was able to stop taking them. That lasted for months, maybe half a year. By that time, I already developed addiction to the sleeping pills. The moment I threw them all away, I remember even flushing them off in the toilet because what happened is that I really started to… I’m very sensitive person in terms of emotional intelligence, so I can very easily recognize when what I’m feeling is being influenced by external object or is it my own feeling. And then after taking those pills the next day, I would feel as though I was on drugs, I was depressed, the feeling of depression. I can’t recognize… I used to have my sad moments. Of course, everybody has them. Some maybe depressive thoughts a little bit, but those thoughts were different. This was feeling as though I started to have depression. It was like everything was so vain. I felt like I would like to start crying, and it was so strange for me. I never felt that way before, so I immediately linked this to the sleeping pills because I knew this wasn’t mine. I never had this feeling before. At this point, I was so scared. I was super scared about my mental health at this point and I said to myself, okay, this is the point where I need to say goodbye to the sleeping pills. However difficult this is going to be, I can’t do this anymore because it started to have a super detrimental impact on my mind and I couldn’t allow it anymore. I just felt like, no, it can’t happen. I can’t deal with depression on top of that, it can’t happen. So, that was my trigger, the point where I decided goodbye, sleeping pills. I can’t. Martin Reed: Maria, I’m really grateful for you coming on and giving up your time to share your experience. I know that a lot of people are going to find your experience really helpful, hopefully as well, hopeful, and just giving people the possibility and the reassurance that we can get out of this struggle no matter how difficult things feel. But I do have one last question for you, which is one that I ask everyone that comes on, and it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, that they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia, what would you say to them? Maria Koziol: I came from the point where once I even almost overdosed on sleeping pills and I drank alcohol as well. That was when I was on holidays. I think I was just so hopeless and so desperate and all the things you can imagine how I felt.It wasn’t just for clarity, it wasn’t like it was a suicidal thing. I didn’t want to do it. It’s just that I would do anything to fall asleep, so I just had a bunch of pills and I took like five or six pills at once and I drank a bottle of wine before, anything to fall asleep. I just wanted to fall asleep. I’m very lucky and grateful that I’m still here today, but you see at what point in my life I came from, what point I was in. That was absolutely a nightmare and I almost killed myself. Where I am now, I don’t have insomnia anymore. I can sleep without any pills, without nothing. So, just wanted to say it as a word of hope for anybody that could be listening to that because it doesn’t matter what state you are in right now, maybe you’re taking a lot of pills daily as well, you are able to get out of it. There’s always hope. You can always do it. And definitely, you’re going to recover from insomnia. Remember that you are not alone and there’s millions of people experiencing the same thing, even though you don’t see them around you, but they are there. There’s a lot of people suffering from the same thing you are suffering right now. And as difficult as it might seem right now, I promise you, you will recover. And you need to change your approach to insomnia and try to disempower insomnia. I know how confusing it sounds, but I promise you will be fine and there’s a way out, and you will 100% recover. I’m 100% sure about that, because I was at the same point as you and maybe even worse, so there’s hope. Martin Reed: All right. Well, that’s great. Thanks again, Maria, for coming on. I really appreciate it. Maria Koziol: Yeah, no worries. Thank you so much, Martin, as well. Martin Reed: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin Reed: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin Reed: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin Reed: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. Mentioned in this episode: The Tools by Phil Stutz and Barry Michels I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Leah’s insomnia showed up around puberty and was a consistent presence throughout her teenage years. As an adult, Leah found that insomnia would often come and go in response to the stress and anxiety that comes with being a human being — until it showed up and stuck around for several weeks. What that happened, Leah found it harder to be the person she wanted to be and live the life she wanted to live. Sleeping pills no longer seemed to be the solution and she found herself really struggling. Like most people who struggle with chronic insomnia, Leah felt stuck. And that was because so many of the things she did to try to fix her sleep and deal with all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with insomnia just weren’t working. They weren’t getting her where she wanted to be. The more she tried, the more difficult it all became. So Leah decided to pursue a different approach. She moved away from trying to control sleep. She stopped chasing after sleep. She stopped putting pressure on herself to make sleep happen. She would remind herself that her body knew how to sleep and so it was pointless to put effort into sleep. Leah also worked on detaching herself from her thoughts — with ongoing practice she was able to become more of an observer of her thoughts and remain more present when they swept in and tried to push her around. Leah also realized that canceling plans and staying home after difficult nights didn’t make things any better. So, she committed to going about each day, independently of sleep — and she started to notice that even when she felt exhausted she could still do things that mattered and she could still focus on things other than sleep — even if only for a moment. Leah found that by committing to actions that kept her moving toward the life she wanted to live she was able to start freeing herself from all the mental chatter she was experiencing. Leah’s life is no longer controlled by how she sleeps or by the thoughts her mind generates. Sleep now feels more natural and all the energy that was once consumed by an ongoing struggle with insomnia is now being used to do more of the things that matter to her. Things that help Leah live the life she wants to live, independently of sleep. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin Reed: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin Reed: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin Reed: Okay, so Leah, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Leah Werner: I’m excited to be here. It’s nice to be on the other side of it. Martin Reed: Yeah, you’re not the first person to say that. Someone finds the podcast and then one day they’re a guest themselves, and I think that’s the ultimate success story. Let’s get started talking about your experience and your story. Can you tell us about when your sleep problems first began and what you think may have caused those initial issues with sleep? Leah Werner: I first started having insomnia issues in puberty. I was probably 12 or 13 where I would toss and turn until the wee hours of the morning and be so upset and anxious that I would wake up my dad and he would walk me back to my bedroom. His mantra always was, “Even if you’re not sleeping, your body is resting.” That was his mantra. It was pretty much a consistent issue all through my teenage years and then kind of cycling in and out of it as an adult, definitely impacted by stress and anxiety and just kind of the goings-ons in life. It’s not an everyday thing, but it’s definitely been a struggle on and off since I was about 12. What I learned from you, Martin, is that some people are just predisposed to it. I don’t think it was any one given thing when I was 12 years old or 13, but when I learned that from working with you, it really helped, like, this is just kind of how I’m wired and I’ve got to kind of learn to live with it. Martin Reed: Yeah. What prompted you to start working with me or to decide, “I need to take action”? Because it sounds like you experienced lots of periods of insomnia throughout your whole life. Were you going through a particularly difficult patch? What was that motivation to try something different? Leah Werner: I was going through what I would call an acute patch in that it wasn’t just one or two nights, but weeks of insomnia and my functionality was severely diminished. I wasn’t able to think at work, my emotional threshold was incredibly low. I was really, really struggling. I was all-consumed every day with, “Am I going to sleep, am I going to sleep?” I knew that just popping sleeping pills, and I’ve tried a million different varieties, over the counter and prescribed, didn’t necessarily guarantee a night’s sleep and I knew I needed a different approach. That is when I found your podcast and then checked out your website. It was just several weeks of just pure misery. Martin Reed: Yeah. What was sleep like for you at that time? Was it just every night, just kind of different, just lousy? Or was it, “I’m always having difficulty falling asleep” or “I’m always having difficulty staying asleep, waking, finding it hard to fall back to sleep”? What was the difficulty? Leah Werner: The difficulty was it was taking me hours and hours and hours to fall asleep, if I fell asleep at all. Sometimes I experienced the waking up in the middle of the night insomnia after falling asleep pretty easily. But it doesn’t trigger the anxiety and kind of the train of negative thinking that just tossing and turning for five, six hours and then obsessively checking the clock, which I don’t do anymore, which is really helpful. That was that acute episode, just either getting one to two hours or no sleep for weeks on end. That’s what led me to you. Martin Reed: Yeah. Since you had such a long history with insomnia, lots of experience with it, I’m guessing that over the years, lots of different things that you tried. You already mentioned that you tried the medication route, sometimes helpful, sometimes not, maybe over the long term wasn’t proving to have the effect that you wanted. What other kind of things had you tried in a bid to kind of fix things and to put this insomnia behind you? Leah Werner: I tried praying about it, no lie, straight up, and I’m not the most spiritual or religious person, but I was desperate for help. I tried making myself as exhausted as possible with working out really hard, things of that nature. Mostly my go-to was sleeping drugs that, as I said, sometime worked. More often than not, it just made me super hungover the next day, which in and of itself on top of the fatigue and the side effects from just being exhausted and then being drugged over top of it and hungover, made life even worse. Martin Reed: Yeah. I remember when we were working together, one of the first changes you made was connected to the amount of time you were spending in bed, or just allotting for sleep each night. I’m curious to hear in your own words more about that change and what that experience was like for you. Leah Werner: Well, I thought you were crazy, Martin, because people who suffer from insomnia, all you want to do is go to bed and sleep. I believe it was 11:30, you told me to go to bed at 11:30 and wake up at 5:45 or 5:30, and I was like, “But that’s hardly any time in bed. This isn’t going to work. This isn’t going to work.” It was a pretty significant mental lift to get on board with you with that technique specifically. But I was so desperate because obviously my other attempts at trying to alleviate this chronic problem weren’t working. So I was like, “Okay.” So my whole family would go to bed, my wife would go to bed, my kids in bed, and there I am on the couch 10:00, 10:30, 11:00. By the time I did go to bed, my eyes were so heavy and that is when it really started to change things for me because I was tossing and turning a little bit, but it was not five, six hours of it. It was much more condensed, because I had built that sleep drive, to use your term, throughout the day and kind of pushing the limits of my exhaustion so that when I did go to bed it was much more fruitful. But I thought you were crazy. Martin Reed: You’re not the first person to tell me that. It does sound completely illogical, doesn’t it, when we really want more sleep to happen so we spend more time in bed and then we hear either from me or from somewhere else, “Well, how about we spend less time in bed?” It’s just the complete opposite of where we normally go. Like you said, all we are trying to do here is more closely match the amount of time we spend in bed to our current sleep situation, because we probably know, like you probably knew from your own experience, that the amount of time you were spending in bed up to that point wasn’t usually generating more sleep, only leading to more nighttime wakefulness. So what we’re doing is we’re just reducing all that opportunity for long periods of nighttime wakefulness. We’re helping to build that natural sleep drive because you’re out of bed for longer. We’re also preventing you from chasing after sleep, putting more effort into sleep, because now you’ve got this earliest possible bedtime, so you’re not going to be going to bed earlier to chase after sleep. You’ve got a kind of consistent morning out of bed time, so you’re not going to be… Well, you still might, but you’ve got this plan in place to not then chase after sleep in the morning too by sleeping in. It’s like all these different parts of a jigsaw can kind of just fall into place just through that behavior change, that new habit of just allotting less time for sleep, which for most people is going to bed later or maybe getting out of bed earlier in the morning. Leah Werner: It really does feel like a jigsaw because that wasn’t the only piece of it when the instruction to get out of bed if you’re tossing and turning also really, really helped because it mitigates the frustration that starts to build in your head. Instead of just being continually frustrated and that heightened arousal getting more and more exacerbated, you’re like, “Oh, I’m feeling that frustration. That means I need to get out of bed.” And I would get out of bed, and at first it was a little bit of a leap, like, “I don’t want to get out of bed.” But I would go downstairs, the house was to myself. I would only read, I wouldn’t watch TV. I didn’t want any more stimuli coming at me. When I started to feel my eyes getting heavy, I would go back upstairs. Sometimes I did that five times a night, but I was so desperate to overcome this or have new tools to work with it that I committed myself to it. That was the other piece of the jigsaw, to use your expression, that really started to change things for me. Martin Reed: Yeah. Do you remember how much time you used to spend in bed or allot for sleep before you kind of changed tact there and got closer to six, six and a half hours? Do you remember what it was before that? Leah Werner: It was 9:30 to like 7:00, which is crazy. I mean, that’s crazy. It’s funny, since working with you, I naturally go to bed later now by an hour, hour and a half, so that’s an interesting outcome that I wasn’t expecting. But way too long in bed, especially when it only is exacerbating my anxiety and kind of the train, the compulsive thinking about how, “This isn’t working, this isn’t working.” That was truly very helpful. Martin Reed: Yeah, so that was a very big change for you to make, and like you just touched upon, you thought I was crazy. Your mind’s generating all these thoughts and feelings like, “This makes no sense. How’s this ever going to work? This is going to be a disaster.” But you did it anyway and I’m curious how. How were you able to just commit to making that change when probably almost every sinew in your body was like, “This makes no sense. How is this going to work? I’m going to be depriving myself of all these hours, opportunity for sleep.” How did you go about just making that change regardless? Leah Werner: I think what helped me is listening to your podcast and listening to other people’s experience with implementing these same techniques and how fruitful they were, reading the testimonials of people that have worked with you on your website. It gave me the inspiration and helped me dig in. Once again, I was really looking for answers that were sustainable that I could take with me anywhere I go. That was not about sleep medication because it consistently disappointed. It just kind of doesn’t work. The support group helped as well, just providing that inspiration that really was like, “I’m going to work this to the fullest extent possible,” because I really wanted some sustainable answers. Martin Reed: Another technique that you touched upon earlier was that process of getting out of bed. So, I think there’s a few different ways people can implement them. Some people find it helpful one way, other people another way. Some people like to kind of estimate chunks of time, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour, and then use that as a cue to just get out of bed and do something else. For other people it’s just like, “It’s okay for me to be awake in bed for as long as that feels comfortable. As soon as it starts to feel really unpleasant, I’m just going to do something more appealing instead, because I can’t control sleep, can’t control how I think or how I feel, but I can control what I do. If being in bed doesn’t feel good, I’m tossing and turning, struggling, I’ll just do something that makes that time that I’m already spending awake anyway more pleasant.” It sounds like that was something that you found helpful. Did you find it helpful right at the start? A lot of people tend to find it’s a bit of a drag at first… Leah Werner: Oh, it’s a drag. Martin Reed: … they have to get through that mental process of, again, “How am I going to sleep if I get out of bed or do something active during the night?” But that’s not our goal. Our goal is just to make that wakefulness more pleasant so that we are not fighting, trying to make sleep happen. I’m just curious to hear a bit more about your experience with that and when maybe you felt that it was proving to be helpful. Leah Werner: Yeah, it was hard, because your body is telling you to lay there, but what I learned is that the longer I toss and turn, the higher my anxiety goes, the higher my obsession with falling asleep goes, knowing full well that when I get to that super-duper heightened sense of super arousal, that there’s no way on God’s green earth I’m going to fall asleep. So being able to reflect on the connection between excessive tossing and turning, making my mental and emotional state worse is actually working against me in terms of my ability to naturally fall asleep, recognizing that this is something I can’t control and my body is meant to fall asleep. Making those connections really helped me start to piece together how what I was doing was actually working against me, and that only reinforced my commitment to getting out of bed. And I was covering up every single clock in the house, which in and of itself is an amazing technique. You don’t need to know what time it is, you don’t need to know what time it is, it doesn’t matter, and I’m truly on board with that now. But getting up and doing something a little bit more pleasurable, as you say, is so helpful because it starts to decrease the mental chatter, it starts to decrease the anxiety. Yeah, you might not want to be sitting on your couch at 3:00 in the morning, but you definitely do not want to be tossing and turning in bed obsessing about sleeping either. Martin Reed: Yeah, and I think that’s the comparison, right? It’s like we don’t want to be on the couch at night, but we don’t want to be tossing and turning either, so we kind of just choose the better option, so “What’s most appealing to me at the current time? I’m lying in bed, tossing and turning. I’ve got a choice. I can stay here tossing and turning, hope the sleep comes, doesn’t sound pleasant. Or I can get out of bed and do something else instead.” That probably doesn’t sound pleasant either, but maybe that’s a little bit more of an appealing option. If it’s not more appealing to do something else, then by all means just stay in bed, right? We’re just looking to give ourselves the opportunity to make that wakefulness more pleasant. That’s really all it comes down to, because that’s the only thing we can control. Leah Werner: Now if I start tossing and turning and I… There’s always like a moment where the anxiety and the starting to think about sleep clicks in. I know that is the exact moment I need to get out of bed, the exact moment. Because you can flip-flop for an hour and be like, “Yeah, okay, it’s taking longer to fall asleep tonight.” Most times that’s kind of the attitude that I have now. I’m kind of at peace with nighttime wakefulness, but the second I sense my anxiety’s starting to rise and the mental chatter of “I’m never going to fall asleep” starts to come across my mind’s eye, I’m like, “Oh, it’s time to get out of bed, time to get out of bed.” Because I know it’s such a powerful tool, it’s no longer a leap to commit to that when that does happen, which is very infrequently now. Martin Reed: You talked about covering up the clocks and just not checking the time at night. You said that was quite empowering. Was that something that you did before we started to work together or was that a change that you made once we were working together? Leah Werner: Well, sometimes I would turn the clock around, but then I swear to God, at 3:00 in the morning I’d be like, “What time is it?” And I’d turn it right back, so it was a little bit hit or miss, but I wouldn’t cover up all, like the microwave clock, the clock on the stove, the clock in the living room. Me and my wife every night while I was working with you and after would cover up every single clock in the house, so that when I would come downstairs after tossing and turning and noting the anxiety and mental chatter rising, when I would walk through the house, there was no reference to what time it was. That alone frees up so much negative mental chatter because there’s kind of no context. It’s dark outside, the house is quiet. There’s kind of no sense about what time it is leading up to when the birds start chirping. I don’t do that anymore, but I was all hands on deck with that. “I do not want to know what time it is anywhere in this house,” and stay committed to that for a long time. Martin Reed: Did you find that was an easy change to make? I ask that because I’ve had clients who say, “I just cannot make that change. I just can’t imagine what it would be like not to know the time during the night.” For lots of people, it can be a really hard change and they feel like it’s going to lead to more mental chatter, “Because now my brain’s going to be like, ‘but what time is it?’ Now my brain’s just going to be fixated on wondering what the time is.” I’m just curious if that was something you experienced or you were just like, “No, I’m not going to- Leah Werner: It was liberating. The hardest thing was the going to bed later and the getting out of bed, but I just committed to it, and then we adapt easily, I think, after a while, humans do. So then I was like, “Oh, this is what I do.” But covering up the clocks was liberating. I did not struggle with that at all. Martin Reed: Well, you really went all in there looking for every single clock and just covering it all up. Leah Werner: Oh, I wasn’t playing, Martin. I wasn’t playing. Martin Reed: You weren’t. People listening to this, some people might think, “Yeah, I can get behind that. I’m going to go and every night now I’m going to cover everything up.” Other people might be like, “No, that sounds like too much.” I don’t think it matters. I think it comes down to the intent. If we’re actively seeking out the time at night, that might not be a helpful behavior because it just leads to what I call those mental gymnastics. Now your brain is thinking, “All right, how much sleep have I got?” Or “How long have I been awake? How much time do I have left before my alarm goes off?” All that stuff. All because we’ve checked the time. That’s the usual outcome in my experience of checking the time during the night. The best outcome is probably neutral, just has no effect on us. Leah Werner: Right. There’s no positive outcome. Martin Reed: Yeah, I’m inclined to agree. I just think that’s just one of these small changes we can make, that for some people can sound a bit scary, but can be worth experimenting with just not checking the time, not seeking out the time. You don’t have to necessarily block every single source of the time out. If you think that’s helpful, go for it. If not, if that sounds like a bit too much work, it’s just intent. It’s just that seeking out the time, let’s not seek out the time. Maybe let’s just put our alarm clock or our phone on the other side of the room so we’re not tempted to reach out for it. If we get out of bed during the night, let’s not walk past with laser vision past the microwave. Leah Werner: It’s so true. It’s so true. Martin Reed: Or all the other stuff that has the time on. It can be really helpful, a really helpful change. Leah Werner: I think the other thing I learned is that the nights that you’re getting four hours of sleep or three or two or 30 minutes, I had nights that, or zero, then weighing in on how you’re feeling the next day, you really start to see the impacts of what we say is awful, categorically awful when you have insomnia. How I felt after four hours of sleep versus having no sleep are vastly different. Because of that, because now I have that awareness about how I feel emotionally and physically and how I can think at my job and perform on what people would categorically say is an awful night’s sleep, having an appreciation of the nuance of what nighttime wakefulness is and how much sleep you’re getting is, I think really helps you detach from the need to know the time. Because if you have five hours left to sleep, I feel pretty good after a five-hour night of sleep now. You know what I mean? I think it helped me detach from the desire to know the time because I have a greater appreciation for the impacts of sleep on me or the impacts of wakefulness at night on me and appreciate how I really do feel okay somewhat and can function and experience joy and live my values, as you say, on what people would deem is not enough sleep, so it helped disconnect the desire to know the time. Martin Reed: Yeah, and that’s a great point because a clock doesn’t know when we’re sleepy. A clock doesn’t know when we’ve had enough sleep. A clock doesn’t know anything. All the clock knows is the time. The fact of the matter is we can’t really do anything in the middle of the night with that additional information. “Oh, it’s 2:00 AM.” What can we do with that? There’s nothing we can do with that. So why put ourselves through that? We’re kind of just setting ourselves up for more of the gymnastics, more of the difficult thoughts and the feelings, more of the sleep efforts. Perhaps if we just eliminate that as one piece of the jigsaw of insomnia, frees us up to maybe just do something more pleasant instead at night, rather than just watching that clock ticking endlessly all night long. Leah Werner: I strongly encourage that technique alone. It was really, really helpful. Martin Reed: Something else that I remember we were discussing when we were working together that’s related to that sleep drive, the idea that the longer we spend awake, the more we build sleep drive, and therefore the more likely sleep is going to happen, was the daytime naps. It’s something that a lot of people with insomnia struggle with. We either nap, get some sleep during the day, but then set ourselves up for some sleep disruption at night because of that lowered sleep drive, or we try and nap during the day, then maybe fine, we can’t nap, and then leads to more worry about our ability to sleep. I remember that you were taking some daytime naps. Leah Werner: All the time. Martin Reed: I think you were quite successful at those daytime naps as well. But that was something that you- Leah Werner: I was. I would pass out cold. Martin Reed: Yeah, but that was something that you wanted to move away from. I’m just curious to hear about your experience with that and the process of moving away from maybe a reliance or having the naps as a set part of your daily routine. Leah Werner: That was hard to give up because I’m a great napper, which is ironic, right? It’s still sleep, but because it’s happening in the middle of the day, it’s easier, that makes no sense. That was hard to give up. I did carve out times just to be still, do some meditation, maybe do some stretching, something that was kind of disconnected from my day-to-day to have a built-in reprieve during the time that I would traditionally nap. But I will tell you that those days when I was getting no sleep the night before, I was like, “I just want a nap.” And I would hear your accent in my head, “Don’t do it. Don’t do the nap.” I think I cheated a couple days, I’m not going to lie, but overall, you really do start to see that connection with how you are during the day and its connection to building the sleep drive. The advice to commit to your day, no matter what, the getting up and working out, the cooking for my family, these values that I hold dear really are connected to building my sleep drive and not napping, being connected to building my sleep drive. When I started to make those connections, it gave me kind of the commitment and the chutzpah to be like, “There’s nothing I want to do right now but sleep, but I would rather sleep tonight, so I’m going to commit to my day. I’m not going to nap.” All of that, all of those techniques start to decrease the mental chatter, which is the thing that actually exacerbates insomnia. You’re predisposed, that’s fine, but it’s the mental chatter that makes it so much more, so much bigger than it actually is. Martin Reed: One area where I can, in my own experience, just seeing when naps can become problematic is when we kind of use that time that we might otherwise use to do stuff that’s really important to us, like the values that you just mentioned. Regardless of whether those naps are successful or not, we might kind of block out that hour in our day that we might be able to spend doing things that are really important to us that move us towards the kind of life we want to live. But because we are so kind of desperate maybe to catch up on sleep or to chase after sleep, we kind of substitute that time to lie down, either try and sleep or to sleep. Sometimes that can end up moving us away from the kind of life you want to live, which doesn’t usually have a good outcome over the longer term. Leah Werner: Definitely, definitely. If you’re not successful at napping, then the negative train starts in your head, “Well, if I’m not going to be able to nap at 2:00, I’m definitely not going to be asleep at 10:00.” Then you start the obsession about sleep and by the time 10:00 rolls around, you’re so filled with anxiety how you’re never going to… I would literally think I’m never going to sleep again, which now looking back seems absurd, but when I was in the thick of it, it feels like gospel truth. It can totally backfire. The napping and not being able to sleep while you’re napping can totally backfire and make the nighttime desire to sleep all the more difficult to attain. Martin Reed: And I’m keen to talk about all those thoughts and those feelings and all the emotions that come with insomnia because they can be a really big, maybe even the number one source of struggle. Like every human being, you yourself, you found that your mind, just as you touched upon, it would wander away from the present, just like it loves to do. It either looks back on previous nights or previous days, thinks about what the next night might be like or what the next day might be like. Of course this can make the days more difficult because we’ve got a mind that just seems like it just doesn’t want to focus, it wants to worry, it wants to ruminate. The same thing for night times as well, it wants to worry and ruminate and that doesn’t feel good. So we end up putting pressure on ourselves to sleep so they go away or we put pressure on ourselves to try and fight, to try and get rid of all those difficult thoughts and feelings, and all of these things tend to make sleep more difficult, tend to make those thoughts, feelings, and emotions more powerful. I’m curious to hear how you changed your relationship with your mind, how you managed to bring it back when it would wander away, and how you changed your relationship with all the difficult thoughts and those feelings that come with insomnia. Leah Werner: That has been the biggest hurdle to overcome. All those tools and tricks and techniques you taught me were so helpful. But the thing that has really spoken to my long term success is that, and I swear, and this sounds so trite almost, your mantra that your body knows how to sleep totally started switching it up for me. Firstly, I never thought of it in that way, ever. When I would talk to my doctor about my insomnia and be struggling and she’s just tossing medication at me, those words were never spoken, nothing like that was ever said to me. It seems so intuitive now, but it really blew my mind, so I literally used it as my mantra. “Your body knows how to sleep, your body knows how to sleep, your body’s meant to sleep, your body knows how to sleep.” So I would start, when I would have the thought pop up into my mind’s eye, “You’re never going to sleep again,” which was consistent, and I’ve heard other people voices on your podcast, I immediately went to the thought, “My body knows how to sleep,” to the point now, and it was a discipline to conjure it up. It’s a mantra, you have to be intentional about it. But now, like last night I had kind of a, eh, night sleeping. It took me a while to fall asleep and I started to have some negative thoughts and immediately I had the “your body knows how to sleep” and I’m like, “Oh, right, right.” It immediately brought me into the moment. You gave me some other kind of mindfulness techniques about how to drop into your physical body, so you’re kind of shutting off your mind. You’re like, “Let me feel my toes and my ankles and move all the way up and kind of check in with how my body is feeling and kind of move through that kind of meditation, if you will.” Those two things really helped me get out of my head. Now that the mantra is so ingrained in me that, it’s almost like I have created a new channel in my brain that now my thoughts are, “Of course my body knows how to sleep. I know how to sleep. I’m going to fall asleep naturally,” has really helped make the radio of insomnia dissipate quite dramatically. Martin Reed: Yeah. I think, now, correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just curious to hear your thoughts on this, why you feel that just reminding yourself that “my body knows how to sleep” seems to be helpful. Do you think it’s maybe because it helps you just remember or identify the fact that you don’t have to put effort into sleep because after all, your body knows. You’re reminding yourself that your body knows how to sleep, therefore, “I don’t need to be involved in the process, I can kind of exactly untangle myself from all that effort.” Leah Werner: Insomniacs, myself included, we put a ton of effort into falling asleep, right? You’re like, “Okay, I’m not going to do blue screens. I’m going to make sure there’s no light in my room. I’m going to go to bed early. I’m going to cover myself in lavender oil,” whatever it is. There’s so much effort into controlling sleep, and I too was trying to control sleep. But that preoccupation with trying to control sleep makes sleep more elusive, so you’re actually working against yourself. So that mantra, “Your body knows how to sleep,” really flip that on its head, that it kind of took the pressure off. Yes, you still want to sleep. I still feel that way and I feel for everybody listening to this podcast, you do. You just want to sleep. You don’t want to be awake. You need it, you need it for so many different reasons, but taking that pressure off, that helped relieve that chatter. There’s absolutely nothing I can do, aside from don’t drink a giant thing of coffee at nine o’clock at night. I mean, there are things you could do that will promote sleep or detract from sleep. But the sense of “I’m able to control this natural processee,” that mantra helped me release that belief and that belief, I didn’t know it was deeply entrenched in me that I kind of am responsible for this, so to speak. It helped me take that pressure off my mind and my emotional health, like, this is not something I can control. Martin Reed: Sleep doesn’t do well being micromanaged, just as us ourselves as human beings don’t respond well to micromanagement, right? Leah Werner: Amen, brother. Amen. Martin Reed: I remember one of my first jobs when I was a teenager, it was working at a travel agency and I would have to pack up all their brochures, all the holiday brochures advertising the resorts. But after they got printed, there was always new inserts that had to go on, new properties that had to go in, certain things that had to be photocopied. They had to be packaged all in a certain way. So I’d do my training. They’d say, “Okay, this is how you do it.” Seem pretty straightforward to me. Just leave me to go about it and I’ll just get it done. But it was like there was always someone over my shoulder, “Oh no, that wasn’t quite straight enough. That was the wrong… There’s a fold in that paper there. You can’t do that.” This person was putting all these rules and regulations. I struggled to even get five of those brochures in a box by the end of the day. Whereas if they’d have just left me to it, I probably could have got 500 in that box. I think sleep’s the same way, when we’re trying to micromanage it. “You need to be falling asleep now” or “You can’t be waking up now, you can’t be thinking this, you can’t be doing that. That wasn’t a good sleep. Oh, this was a good sleep. Do that again.” When we try and micromanage sleep, what happens? It’s like me as a 16-year-old, I’m just getting overwhelmed in that travel agency and I’m not getting anything done. I think that’s what it comes down to with sleep. Leah Werner: Yeah, so true, so true. I’m so grateful for that mantra, and you probably wouldn’t even called it that, but I’m so grateful because that was one of the critical pieces of the puzzle that helped me kind of overcome the mental hurdle of insomnia, and that’s really what it’s about. It’s the mental hurdle of it. Martin Reed: Yes, I totally agree. I think that the biggest part of that hurdle is our struggle with it because the wakefulness doesn’t feel good, because the thoughts, the feelings, the emotions that come with it don’t feel good. As human beings, we don’t want stuff that doesn’t feel good near us, so we try and get rid of it. We try and fight with it. We try and avoid it, and that’s the struggle. That is the entire struggle. It’s our human desire to get rid of all the difficulty in our life. But unfortunately, we just cannot control sleep. We cannot control what we think. We cannot control how we feel. We cannot control our emotions. Probably can temporarily, read a joke book, we might laugh for a few minutes, but we’re talking about the long term. If a thought keeps popping up in our head, the more we try and get rid of that thought, the more it’s just going to keep popping back. The more we try and feel happy and get rid of anxiety and worry, the more that worry and that anxiety is going to kind of push back and get more powerful and have more influence over our lives. It’s really about trying to recognize what we can control, what we can’t control, and just relieving ourselves, just withdrawing from that battle, that ongoing, endless exhausting struggle with all the stuff we can’t control, and just accepting that we can’t control that stuff. Not trying to kid ourselves. It sucks, we don’t want it to be here. Leah Werner: Oh yeah, it still sucks. Martin Reed: Yeah, but we know from experience that we can’t push it away and all that energy, if we just remove ourselves from that struggle, we get so tangled up in it, we free up all that energy to do something else. Even in the presence of all that struggle and all that pain, we might do something, for example, during the night, more pleasant. We might have a little bit more energy during the day to do stuff that matter to us because we’ve got more energy in reserve because we haven’t been engaged in a horse fighting duel all night with that thought and that worry and that anxiety. It’s still there, but now we’ve got more energy to do what matters, and so all that difficult stuff then has less influence over us. Leah Werner: Yeah. It’s interesting, committing to your day, regardless of how much sleep you got in and of itself is a really powerful technique. Because when I would cancel plans, I would take a nap, I would get depressed because I canceled plans and I wasn’t seeing my friends. Then my daytime focus was all about accommodating exhaustion, so then it would just reinforce the mental chatter throughout the day. My nighttime was about mental chatter around insomnia, anxiety around insomnia, and then canceling my day as much as I was allowed to cancel would do the exact same thing. Committing to your plans is a way to start freeing yourself from that mental chatter, because when you’re in the moment doing what you need to do about your day, the fun stuff, the professional stuff, the family stuff, I found myself… I went to a happy hour with one of my favorite coworkers, and I had hardly gotten any sleep in days. This is when I was actively working with you. I remember there was a moment that I realized while I was talking to her that I forgot I was exhausted. I totally forgot. I forgot I was exhausted, I forgot I hadn’t slept in four days. And I was driving home that, and I was like, “That’s why Martin advises you to commit to your day because it gives you a reprieve from the mental chatter of insomnia.” That is so connected to me, to overcoming the compulsive thinking and the heightened state of arousal both day and night, if you just are like, “I can work out when I’m tired, I can do my job when I’m tired,” and not feeding the beast by accommodating all of what I need to do around the fact that I’m not sleeping. Martin Reed: Yeah, and it makes such a difference when we’re engaged in something, even when we don’t feel good, when there’s all this difficult stuff going on in our mind. And that’s where I think it can just be so helpful to just make that commitment, which I think it does take, and the effort that it can take to just commit to doing things. They don’t always have to be these huge milestones, but just doing things that are important to us during the day, no matter how big, no matter how small they are, and just giving ourselves that opportunity to just keep moving toward the life we want to live and give ourselves those opportunities to feel engaged, to feel enriched, to feel like we’re living the kind of life we want to live. Leah Werner: Exactly. Exactly. It’s so fascinating because it really is a multifaceted approach. I don’t think just using one of these techniques would have been the answer for me, but the combination of sleep restriction, my new favorite mantra, committing to my day, covering up the clocks, which I don’t do anymore, it was kind of like the perfect combo to really kind of change my brain and its interpretation of what it means to not sleep, which at the end of the day helped me sleep more. It’s so fascinating. Martin Reed: It really is. Yeah, I completely agree. Well, one thing you touched upon was something that you did during the nights when the mind was just kind of kicking off was to try and come back into your body. I’m curious to just hear a little bit more about that process, because I just know that people listening to this are going to be curious as soon as you said that. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that, how it works, what the goal is, what the purpose is? Leah Werner: Well, it’s a mindfulness meditation. I first learned about it years ago reading some Buddhist works by Pema Chödrön, and it really is, you’re laying there in bed and you’re totally attached to your thoughts. Those thoughts are not good. They’re not helping you relax, most definitely. They’re only contributing to that heightened state of arousal, which of course is counter to your ability to fall asleep. You have to get out of your head because it’s what’s going on in your head that’s actually keeping you awake. So getting out of your head is the body scan, which is you can start at the top of your head or your toes, and you literally are like, “I feel my toes” or “I’m checking in with my toes” or “how do my toes feel” and then “how do my arches feel,” “how do my heels feel” and you don’t broad stroke it. You move up your body meticulously, “My calves, the back of my knees, my thighs, my hips.” You go through all the pieces and parts, getting up to the top of your head, and it should take some time, if you really break down every kind of piece and part of your body, just checking in. “How do I feel? How do I feel?” Because of course the back of your heels likely feel just fine, right? It’s the head that is causing you the angst. It provides you the space between what you’re compulsively thinking about and what’s actually going on in your body, so that’s one technique. There’s some other techniques that I have found helpful where you picture your thoughts as clouds and your peace and equanimity is a blank blue sky. When you have a cloud, pass your mind’s eye, a thought past your mind’s eye, that, “I’m never going to sleep tonight.” You just like, “Oh, that’s a fear cloud.” And you start to disassociate who you really are from the thoughts that you generate, and I found the body scan and kind of the cloud blue sky metaphor meditation to be really helpful to help me start to disassociate this compulsive thinking from what was actually happening in the moment. What was actually happening in the moment is “I, Leah, am laying in bed, my body is laying in bed, my head is on a pillow.” All the stuff going on in my head is not reality. It is not what’s really going on, it’s just compulsive thinking, and there’s a million other types out there. But it starts to create that separation between compulsive thinking and what the moment is actually presenting. That exercise and that awareness can be truly beneficial to all aspects of your life. This is the only moment we have. There’s no future, there’s no past. There’s no predicting my night’s sleep tonight based on two weeks of bad sleep. It’s like this is the only moment. Some of those mindfulness techniques I found very, very helpful. Martin Reed: Yeah, I think it’s important to recognize too, just from your description there, that your goal is never to control what your mind is doing, not to get rid of a thought or a feeling or an emotion. It’s just to bring you present and to recognize thoughts for what they are. We’re kind of the container of our thoughts. We’re not the thoughts themselves. So when you’re doing that muscle relaxation, there’s all this stuff going on in your mind, but at the same time, there’s still a body here that you have full control over and that you can bring your attention back to. At the same time, there’s all these thoughts that are being generated by the mind. We can’t control them, just like we can’t control a cloud. A cloud might come along, it might sit overhead for a while. It might be a really dark, scary cloud. Eventually it’ll move on. It might reform, might come back. But it’s not about controlling our thoughts, it’s just about changing our relationship with them. It’s not about trying to control sleep, “Okay, I’m going to do this muscle relaxation tonight to make me fall back to sleep. I didn’t fall back to sleep. It didn’t work.” We can kind of get a bit tripped up there. Really, our goal is to just change our relationship with what’s going on inside our mind. I think that’s really what it comes down to. It does take practice because I think it’s a skill. We’re hardwired to want to push all that stuff away. I think it takes a lot of practice repeatedly for us to get to a place where we are able to become more of an observer of all that difficult stuff. Leah Werner: You don’t attach yourself to the thought, it’s just a thought. It’s about that detachment. It’s not who you are. That is a revolutionary shift, if you can get there. It is a practice. I mean, every day I practice, it’s not just around sleep, but in other parts of my life that thoughts are fleeting and they are not actually who you are. You just let the cloud pass your blue sky, just let it pass, name it what it is, fear, joy, whatever, and then release it. That has been really helpful with insomnia. Martin Reed: That’s great. I think that’s really powerful stuff there, for sure. I’m curious now, Leah, what’s an average night for you these days, if there is such a thing? Leah Werner: For the most part, I’ve been sleeping really well. I still wake up really early. When those birds start chirping, I’m awake, so like 5:30. I don’t necessarily get out of bed. I go to bed after 10:00 now. I wake up a few times a night and typically fall right back to sleep. But then nights last night, I tossed and turned for a while. I didn’t have that moment of “Ah,” which would’ve triggered me getting out of bed. I was just kind of like, “Oh, I’m not sleeping.” I didn’t make it mean that I wasn’t going to fall asleep. I didn’t make it mean that I wasn’t going to fall asleep tonight. I just was like, “This what’s going on right now.” And I didn’t attach anything to it. But for the most part I feel like I kind of made it through, for sure, through the darkest part, which led me to you. Then on nights like last night, they’re somewhat infrequent where I don’t feel like I got enough sleep. I feel tired and kind of dragging today, but I can still function. I still committed to my day. On average, my sleep has significantly improved since working with you. Martin Reed: What about the kind of medication cabinet, the pharmaceutical cocktail, list? How are we doing with that? Leah Werner: Oh my God, I tried everything. I was taking a daily prescription that I weaned myself off of. When you really think about it, I’m sure people who listen to this podcast can say “amen” to this, that it’s not a guarantee of sleep. It is not. The techniques I learned in working with you have been far more successful in helping me sleep than all of the medication I have taken in my entire life combined. Martin Reed: Wow, that’s amazing. What about your days? Because I think it’s easy to, at least people that don’t ever have any experience with insomnia, to think that insomnia is a nighttime problem, a challenge that only exists at night, but it really does make the days difficult too. I’m curious to hear how your days are different now as well. Leah Werner: I don’t think about sleep. I don’t think about sleep, and I used to think about sleep all the time. I would either change my day to accommodate fatigue. I would obsess about it. “Am I going to sleep tonight?” Use the past to predict the future. It was a constant chatter in the back of my mind, and now I don’t think about it at all, which is, unto itself, is I can’t even believe I’m vocalizing this to you. I don’t think about it at all. I start to think about it like at 9:30. I’m like, “Oh, go put on my PJ’s and brush my teeth and wash my face.” Just those normal protocols before you go to bed. But I don’t think about it. That in and of itself just sets you up for better sleep because you’re not using all this energy causing all this anxiety and hyperarousal and obsession that will only make sleeping that night more difficult. So I’m free from that, I’m free from kind the daylight obsession about “Am I going to sleep tonight?” Tonight will unfold as tonight will unfold, so I’m definitely free from that. Martin Reed: I’m curious to hear, because you had such a long history with insomnia, once you started to make the changes that we’ve been talking about in this episode, how long that process took do you feel like from getting started making new changes, exploring your relationship with your thoughts, implementing new behaviors around sleep. How long was that process from “insomnia is still this major issue in my life” to getting to that point where you feel like it’s more in the rear-view mirror, it’s more behind you, it’s far less influential over your life now? Leah Werner: I’d say about three to four months. I mean, I started seeing improvements within that second week of doing sleep restriction, covering up the clocks, et cetera. But really feeling like kind of free from the shackles of it, so to speak, was about three to four months. Martin Reed: I’ve just started to recently ask this because I think sometimes when we’re only talking for about an hour, and it can become easy for people to listen and think, “Okay, if I just do this, this and this, within a couple of weeks, things will feel great again.” Or “That’s the kind of story I’m being told or sold on here.” But that’s definitely not the case. What it is is about learning new techniques, right? Learning new skills, new ways of developing our relationship with what goes on in our mind, and it does take time. Leah Werner: It does take time, and it does take commitment, and I think it takes commitment to all of the puzzle pieces. It’s not going to be one singular thing necessarily that really helps people. It’s committing to all of it. It’s committing to all of it. I think because I was so committed to all of it is why in hindsight it seemed like it didn’t take that long. Three to four months really isn’t that long of a period of time, especially when I think about my whole history of struggling with insomnia since I was 12, and I’m 46 now. Three months is nothing. But it definitely does not happen overnight. It does require that commitment to… Just try all the techniques, just go all in. There’s nothing to lose. If you’re already not sleeping, there’s nothing to lose in trying all the techniques, even if you’re fearful of trying them, even if you think they’re going to be a giant pain or they’re not going to be helpful, once again, that’s just a thought. We’re just letting it pass our mind’s eye. We’re not attaching doubt to it. We’re not going to attach our fear. We’re not going to do any of that. I think that’s really what it takes for these techniques to be successful for you. It’s tough. It’s tough, it’s hard being exhausted all the time. It really is hard, so I have a lot of empathy for people who are still in active struggle with it. Martin Reed: It is important to recognize that, that it is hard and that it is a struggle and that it is difficult. It’s so easy listening to these success stories, these transformations to think, “Oh, this sounds so easy.” But it’s not. We’re just talking about specific techniques, which are easy to talk about, but the implementation is usually far from easy and it can be difficult, and it takes a lot of practice and it takes time and commitment and effort. It is a process. Leah Werner: But you’ve seen this time and time again, Martin, that it works. It does work. I mean, how many people have you interviewed on this podcast? How many people go through your program, your free two-week online course? I mean, the proof is out there that it works, so yeah, commitment and patience, it does take some time for you to kind of get through the forest to the promised land. Martin Reed: Definitely. All right. Well, Leah, I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out your day to come on and just share all this fantastic information. You’ve shared some really good insights I just know people are going to get a lot of value from, whether that’s motivation, hope, encouragement, empathy, all that good stuff that you’ve shared with us. But there is one question missing, which I ask every single guest, so I don’t want you to be the odd one out. So I’m going to ask you one more question, and it’s this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, they’re beyond help and they just can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them? Leah Werner: I would advise them to work with you, whether it be the one-on-one that I did with you after the two-week online free course. I think the truth of the matter is, as someone who’s struggled with this for so long, the techniques that you presented to me, no one has ever presented to me. I think there are techniques out there that have not been tried that really can benefit you. I think you have seen that people have been very successful using these techniques. I know when you interact with your primary care doctor and you’re getting your scripts of drugs, there’s no conversation that I have had like I’ve had with you about sleep, and that was such a welcome reprieve from modern medicine not knowing what to do with insomniacs. I know it can feel like you’ve tried everything. I probably would’ve said that before I talked to you, but I don’t think that’s probably true. I think there are some techniques that might be new to people to try that I learned from working with you that really have been the secret to my success. Without finding you, I don’t think I would’ve ever learned about these techniques that make sense to me now and seem kind of intuitive now, but most definitely, that wasn’t the case a year ago. So being open to the fact that while it might feel like you’ve tried everything and it had been unsuccessful, that there are actually new ways of thinking about this and working this issue that could give you some reprieve and to have some success. I feel like there are answers out there to help people get through these waters, because it is really tough. Martin Reed: Well, that’s great. I really appreciate that and I appreciate your time coming on and sharing all your wisdom and your experience, so thank you again, Leah. Leah Werner: It was great to see you and chat with you, Martin. Take care. Martin Reed: Absolutely. You too. Martin Reed: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin Reed: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin Reed: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin Reed: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Amanda slept well through high school, college, and her early professional life. Her experience with insomnia began when a number of different stressors all showed up around the same time. She had a baby. She relocated. She had to get a new job. She had to deal with a toxic parent. Even when things settled down, Amanda found herself struggling to fall asleep. She felt as though her own mind was working against her. She started to panic and didn’t know what to do. After finding that CBD gummies, melatonin, over-the-counter sleep aids, alcohol, and the many sleep rituals and rules she implemented were not helping, Amanda realized she needed to explore a different approach. That was when she found the Insomnia Coach podcast, recognized her own experience in the stories of others, and started working with me. Amanda realized that the more she chased after sleep, the more she craved it, the more she tried to make it happen, the more difficult it became. So, she started to move away from chasing after sleep and from trying to fight or avoid nighttime wakefulness and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that came with it. She started to acknowledge her thoughts — even the really difficult ones — instead of trying to control them. As she did that, she found that her thoughts weren’t always true and that she always had control over her actions, regardless of what her mind might have told her. As she practiced this new approach, Amanda started to notice more of the good stuff that was present in her life and she started to do more of the things that mattered to her. And, as she moved away from the insomnia struggle and expanded the focus of her attention, she found that she started to sleep a lot better, too. As Amanda shares in this episode, the process was not easy. There were ups and downs. Her new approach took time and ongoing practice. However, as she started to get more comfortable with experiencing nighttime wakefulness, as she gained skill in allowing her thoughts and feelings to come and go as they pleased, and as she committed to doing things that kept her moving toward the life she wanted to live each day — independently of sleep — she was able to reclaim her life from insomnia. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin Reed: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin Reed: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin Reed: Okay. So Amanda, thank you so much for taking the time out for your day to come onto the podcast. Amanda Kramer: I’m so happy to be here. Martin Reed: I’m really excited for everything that we are going to cover. Let’s just start right at the beginning. Can you tell us when your sleep problems first began, and if you can remember or if it was obvious what you think caused those initial issues with sleep? Amanda Kramer: Sure. I actually did have a little bit of insomnia when I was a child, but had gotten over that very quickly and became a really good sleeper. I was a great sleeper through high school, through college, through my whole early professional life in New York as a performer. I didn’t have to even think about it. I just looked forward to sleeping. And then my daughter was born, and I was dealing with all the new natural stressors of becoming a parent and not sleeping well. And on top of that, we had just moved up to the Bay Area. So we were dealing with the housing market, and new jobs, and new bosses. And so there was a lot happening at once. A lot of stress happening at one time. And that probably would’ve been enough to set me off. But there was one extra layer of stress, which was having to deal with a very toxic parent. So my stress was just through the roof, and I was dealing with these very deep feelings throughout the day, throughout the night. And once my daughter settled in and started sleeping again, my husband started sleeping again just fine. And I was awake. I was up in the night and unable to sleep. So everyone else was settled in, and I just found myself unable to fall asleep. And I didn’t have the tools that I have today. So I didn’t know what to do with myself. I just sort of panicked and unsure of what was happening. Martin Reed: So it sounds like you went down that well-trodden path of, I can recognize probably where this all began. Either I was always a lousy sleeper, or there were some clear triggers for some sleep disruption. And I think most of us, we accept that when we have some difficult nights, if there’s that clear cause, there’s not a whole lot we can do about that. Hopefully once that cause, that trigger is no longer around, or it’s no longer relevant, we’ve adapted to it, our sleep will get right back on track. But sometimes it doesn’t. And that in itself can be a big source of difficult thoughts, emotions, feelings about sleep. And we can start engaging in all those behaviors to try and chase after sleep, to put effort into sleep, try and make sleep happen. And it’s really that response, which is what at this point is keeping the insomnia alive. It’s the oxygen for that insomnia. But we don’t know that at the time. When we are caught up in this struggle, we want to fix it. We don’t know why it’s happening. It feels very mysterious, very unusual. So we start to try. And all these things that we try, they’re often well-intentioned and logical when we think about them. But they can kind of backfire on us. And then that just leads to more effort, more worry, more difficulty. You mentioned that you were finding it really difficult to just fall asleep. When this sleep issue was feeling really mysterious, and it stuck around long after everything in your life had settled down outside of sleep, what kind of things did you try to get things back on track? Amanda Kramer: Tried a lot of different things. I started off by just trying to clean up my sleep environment. I thought maybe it was the mattress’ fault. So I got a new mattress, and got some blackout shades, and earplugs. And just tried to clean the environment, which was good. It was helpful for a couple days, but then I was still not sleeping. So I was trying those CBD gummies because everyone was pushing them on me. And I tried that, and it really did not work. It in fact made me feel very wired at night. And so that was a no. Melatonin, I tried that during the time and that also was okay for maybe a couple nights. But it was like the novelty wore off, and it was back to not being able to fall asleep. So I didn’t know what to do. I ended up taking some over-the-counter sleep aids. I was having an extra nightcap. Anything that would make me feel sleepy. I was just desperate to feel tired. I got to the point where that made me feel very uncomfortable. I did not want to be taking anything. I did not want to be relying on something outside of myself to fall asleep. But I didn’t have the tools. I didn’t know what to do. And I think the last thing I tried was calling my doctor saying, “Help, I’m not sleeping.” She didn’t know what to do with me. So she prescribes another set of pills, and I was very reluctant to go pick them up. But I did. And I knew that I didn’t want to take them. I was like, “This is not the answer.” But I got the pills, and got home, and locked them away in a cupboard. I did not touch them. But wow. I was at square one. I didn’t know what to do. I felt like I had tried everything. So on a walk one afternoon, I picked up my phone and I did a search for insomnia and podcast. And I started listening to your advice and all of the interviews. And I really connected to what you were saying and their experience. And I thought, “Yes, this is it. This is what I want to try. I don’t want to be taking pills. I don’t want to be taking drugs. I don’t want to be doing any of that.” I was worried about what that was doing to my health, to my liver. And I just knew that I was stronger than that. I could do it with the right support. Martin Reed: One of the things that I kind of remember when we were working together, I think it was within the first couple of weeks. You actually shared some great insights with me. And a really memorable one was you said to me, “I’ve had some good nights, even when my mind was starting to race and was telling me, ‘You haven’t fallen asleep yet. You’re going to be awake all night. This is going to be a really difficult night.'” Especially on those days before you were due to go into work to teach, because we often put a lot more pressure on ourselves to sleep, because we have this strong connection between how we sleep and our ability to perform during the day, or to live the kind of life we want to live, to feel how we want to feel. Can you tell us a little bit more about that insight, where you found that the mind was telling you all this really difficult uncomfortable stuff about sleep, but then some good sleep happened anyway? I’m just curious to hear a little bit more about your experience with that. Amanda Kramer: Yeah. That was really mind opening, because I was so accustomed to hearing the thoughts you’re not going to sleep, and then not sleeping. So very early on within the program, I stopped taking naps. And I had really started to build really strong sleep drive. I was feeling more tired than ever in a good way, once night came. Because I was taking away those naps and waking up at the same time every morning. And some of those days were a little challenging because I was tired. But oh my gosh, it was beautiful. At the end of the day, I was exhausted and ready for sleep. So in that sense, even if those little worries or anxieties about sleeping crept in, I would generally fall asleep, even though they were there. Because I had this really strong sleep drive that just ended up overriding all of the anxieties. I think that was key for me really, was to take away the naps, and to stop trying to make up for a bad night. Because then I was just not tired enough that night. But if I was really good at sticking to waking up at that same time, and honoring the day, and honoring all my commitments by the night, I was really blissfully tired and ready for sleep. No matter what my brain was saying, and no matter what the little chatter was, I was tired enough for those words to dissipate. Martin Reed: So up to that time, you mentioned that you just removed all those naps. What was your napping routine or structure like? Were you napping every day? When were you napping? How long were you naps? I’m curious to hear a little bit more about that. Amanda Kramer: Yes. After a bad night, I would sleep in a little bit if that was possible to try to make up for the night. And then the napping would usually come in when my daughter went to sleep. I would sneak in a nap around one or two, and I was just so desperate to take the pressure off. So the napping, it was pretty daily. And then I was not yet tired enough that evening to go to sleep. So that was pretty clear to me that eliminating the naps was a very good, important thing to do. Martin Reed: So did you find it quite easy to sleep when you set yourself up for a nap? Amanda Kramer: Yes. Actually, it was. I was so tired and depleted at that time. I don’t remember any difficulty taking those naps. Martin Reed: Yeah. I think that in itself can sometimes be a really good insight. Because after all, if you’re able to sleep during the day, then that means that you must be able to sleep at night too. There’s just some kind of obstacle or barrier getting in the way. The fact that we’re able to nap during the day shows that we can still sleep. We haven’t lost that ability to sleep. But where these naps can often be a double-edged sword is when we have chronic insomnia, we are taking a nap because we just want that sleep to happen. We’re kind of chasing after sleep. We’re so desperate to get that sleep in. We’re chasing after it, so we’re going to be like, “Okay, I’m going to go down for a nap and try and make some sleep happen.” And what can often happen is then, we find it really hard to sleep when we try to nap as well. And then that can generate all these difficult thoughts and feelings about that ability to sleep. “Oh my goodness. I can’t sleep at night, I can’t sleep during the day.” But really the obstacle, the whole barrier is all the same. It’s all the effort that we’re engaged in. That desire to avoid nighttime wakefulness. So the brain’s firing up, being hyper alert to protect us from that wakefulness. So I just find it personally really interesting, the kind of relationship we can have with naps when we are experiencing chronic insomnia. Because on the one hand, we can try to nap, find it really easy to nap. And that in itself can be quite reassuring. But usually not that helpful over the longer term. Because when we relieve that sleep pressure, less time awake during the day means we might get less sleep at night. Then on the flip side, if we try a nap and then no sleep happens, we can become even more concerned, and engage in even more effort, and battling with all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with what we feel is just our inability to sleep. So it was great to hear you describe your personal relationship with naps, and that you found it helpful to just cut them out. Which I’m guessing wasn’t an easy change to make. How did you manage to make that decision and stick to it? Amanda Kramer: I had watched a lot of your tutorials, and so I knew you had mentioned this so many times over, that eliminating naps is really important, creating natural sleep drive. And so I was happy to do it, because I really wanted to try everything. In fact, I found it to be empowering to take the nap away, because I always had to make sure I had to create the space, make sure that… It was almost a lot of work to find the space to nap. But when I realized it was actually working against me, I thought, “This is great. This opens up the day. Now I can follow through with everything that I need to do.” Because I know that was one of your pieces of advice was no matter if it’s a good night’s sleep or not, you honor your commitments. You go to work, and you do your exercise, and you socialize. And that to me was unbelievably liberating, because I was always trying to figure out how to get out of this or get out of that, and try to conserve my energy. When I had made the commitment to honor all my commitments, then I got to enjoy the day. I got to let go of the idea that I had to cancel and really be present in the day, no matter that I might be a little tired. It wasn’t a big deal. I was committed to the day. And even sweeten the deal by doing something nice for myself on a day that might have been exhausted. I take my daughter for a walk or get a treat. So the quality of those days ended up becoming quite good and nice. Because I was so committed to making the days good, and not allowing the sleep to really drive whether or not it was a good or bad day. Martin Reed: Yeah. And I think that was something you touched upon when we were working together as well was, I can’t remember at what stage it was. But you had this kind of realization as you were going through things, that how you sleep at night doesn’t always dictate or predetermine the overall quality of your day. That there are other things that influence you. I mean we’re not sugarcoating it. You probably feel better during the day if you had a great night of sleep. But it’s not like a hundred percent of your day is a hundred percent determined by your sleep, a hundred percent of the time. I’m curious to hear when that happened, how that insight affected you. Amanda Kramer: That was the big one. I started to realize the quality of the day was really not dependent on the number of hours of sleep the night before. I could have a decent night’s sleep and then have an awful next day. I could have had a few hours of sleep, but I woke up with gratitude because I had the day. I was going to make the best of the day. I was really committed. After the experience of trying to cancel this and cancel that, I was stepping into the day with a commitment to honor everything. And it gave me a new sense of gratitude. It was tiring. Some of the days were hard, but there were these beautiful moments that ended up happening because I was aware. I was more present and understanding that I was dealing with fatigue, but that it was okay. And I created some really beautiful moments, and then I would look back on the diary and realize this is something that’s happening. The number of hours of sleep is not running parallel with the quality of day. And that really took the pressure off of having the sleep perfectly every night. So that was definitely something that helped take pressure off. Martin Reed: Yeah. Did you find it really hard, especially when you first made this commitment, to pursue stuff that’s enriching, important to you during the day, independently of sleep? Because when we are caught up in all the fatigue, and the anxieties, and all that stuff that comes with insomnia, usually our brain is screaming at us, “You can’t do this stuff. We’ve got to stay home. We’ve got to conserve energy. We got to withdraw. We got to maybe try napping.” All these things it tries to do that can end up distracting us and moving us away from the kind of life you want to live, which then leads to more pressure to sleep and to fix the problem, control what we can’t control. But how did you make that commitment to do that stuff, even when you were feeling really not good? Amanda Kramer: I think it was because I started to trust the process, because I had seen already firsthand how my sleep was getting better, and how it was getting better pretty quickly. So I trusted the structure, and I just felt so committed to the process because I was so tired of insomnia. That I was in it a hundred percent. And I wanted to experience joy. I wanted to make that choice to experience the day in all of its color and vibrancy, and not let a bad night’s sleep take that away. Martin Reed: Yeah. I think it can be really helpful. We don’t have to do huge things, especially if we’re feeling like we’re in a lot of pain, a lot of struggle. I like how you touched upon being kind to yourself. So it might just be going out for a treat with your daughter or by yourself. Just doing something nice for yourself. It’s so easy when we’re struggling to end up getting completely distracted by the struggle, and that just becomes our entire focus. And it’s understandable, because struggle doesn’t feel good. But it can just be so distracting and lead to us engaging in actions that aren’t aligned with the person we want to be, that aren’t aligned with our values. We end up becoming the person that we don’t really want to be, not doing the kind of things we want to do. And that generally doesn’t make us feel any better. And it gives that weight of insomnia. It gives it even more influence over our lives. So I think being kind to ourselves, committing to doing things that are important to us. They might not feel as good. They might not even feel good full stop when we are really struggling. We can’t control how we feel, right? But we can control our actions. So the most important thing is just the fact we are doing these things. We’re doing things that are important to us. And like you touched upon, even when we are really in the depths of the struggle, there are often a couple of moments… Maybe only one moment. But there’s usually a couple of moments during the day that are a little bit better, even if it’s only fleeting. And I think it can help to just be more attuned to those positive moments, to open ourselves up to them. Because so much of our lives, whether we have insomnia or not, we are engaged in autopilot, right? Because we’re thinking about, “All right, I’ve got to wash these dishes. What’s next? Then I’ve got to put the kids to bed, then I’ve got to do this.” We are always off somewhere. Our mind is always off somewhere, and not a hundred percent engaged in where we are and what we’re doing. And the fact is there’s good stuff all around us pretty much all of the time, if we’re able to notice it. So even when we don’t feel good, maybe we can just look around or just give ourselves the opportunity to notice one good thing. One thing that is beautiful, or enjoyable, or makes us feel good, or is interesting. Just one thing to remind us that there is still some opportunity for good stuff, even when we are really caught up in that struggle. Amanda Kramer: Absolutely. Looking back on the beginning stages of the process, the program with you, I do have some very beautiful memories of those tired, tired days. These little gems that appeared, like just that walk along the lagoon with my daughter. I remember feeling so tired that day and after picking her up, I was like, “Let’s go home.” No, let’s not go home. Let’s enjoy the day. And we took that moment, and I will always remember that moment. Maybe there’s something pure about those experiences. Because of the exhaustion, you kind of shed everything else. You shed whatever other daily chatter goes on. It’s like those moments, even though it was during a very tired time, it’s a very positive memory, those little treats or gems that come through on those days. One more thing that really helped me get through those tired days was the information about how there’s not necessarily medical evidence that supports the fact that not getting a lot of sleep is bad for your health or somehow damages you. Because I always thought that when I wasn’t getting enough sleep, that I was somehow doing harm to my body. So knowing that all that stuff out in the internet, all that information is pretty misleading, and that there really isn’t any evidence that it hurt you or harms you. That really started to take the pressure off too. “It’s okay. You’re tired. You’re tired, but you’re not really damaging yourself by not getting enough sleep.” That’s really helpful. Martin Reed: Yeah, exactly. As long as we are giving ourselves the opportunity to sleep, the body’s always going to generate at the very least, the minimum amount of sleep it needs to survive. A lot of the headlines and the news articles out there, I think some are downright just misleading. And others are just really easy to misinterpret. A lot of them aren’t looking at people with chronic insomnia. A lot of them aren’t even using human beings. They’re using animals, and extrapolating their best guesses from there. And a lot of them are using sleep deprivation. They’re taking people and then deliberately interrupting their sleep, and then seeing what effect that has. So they’re not letting these people sleep, and then they find out that leads to worry, depression, and anxiety. Well if someone kept waking me up every hour, then yeah, I’m sure I would feel that way. But chronic insomnia itself is different. Because people with chronic insomnia, they’re giving themselves opportunity to sleep. Often an excessive amount of opportunity for sleep. People with chronic insomnia tend to be going to bed way earlier than an average sleeper, staying in bed later in the morning, napping during the day more often. Engaging in all this additional opportunity for sleep to happen. But the fact of the matter is we don’t have one study that has found chronic insomnia to cause any specific health condition whatsoever. We have studies that associate sleep duration or insomnia with different things. But none have found that it specifically causes it. So that can be a big source of difficulty, and confusion, and worry, and anxiety when we come across all this stuff. Which is another reason why sometimes, it can be helpful to free up all that time that you might be spending engaged in ongoing research. That endless ongoing research that’s so easy to get caught up in, because we’re so desperate to fix the problem. And maybe just use that time in a way that might be more helpful to us in terms of living the kind of life we want to live. Living for now, rather than living for what might be in the future. Many of us have done a lot of research. It’s probably unlikely we’re going to uncover anything brand new. We’ll probably just end up getting caught up in that rabbit rabbit hole of despair, and difficult news articles and stories that you just touched upon. How about we just free ourselves from that? Just do something more important to us instead. That can be so helpful. Amanda Kramer: Yeah. It was recommended that I talked to someone early on, talk through the issues. I know I had dealt with some issues, but I really felt like most of them had settled, and I didn’t really need to open up those issues again. I really needed somehow to just work on the sleep. I didn’t think that it was something I needed to talk to a therapist about. So that was a confusing moment. Even the doctor had pressured me, “Speak to someone. Talk to someone. Talk through the issues.” And I thought, “Well, that would’ve been helpful maybe a few years ago. But now I’m here, and I’ve healed from a lot of that stuff. I’m just still not sleeping.” Martin Reed: So I think after we’ve been working together, I think it was towards the end of the time we were working together. I think we were about six weeks or so in. You mentioned that you were finding it quite remarkable, the fact you were experiencing a number of good nights of sleep, consecutive all in a row. You said you were feeling better during the day, more productive. Feeling more optimistic than you may have done before. But you’re a human being, so you still had some difficult nights from time to time. At this point, did you find that when those inevitable difficult nights happened, that your response to them somehow changed? Maybe they had less of an effect or an influence on you. I’m curious to hear how you dealt with those nights as you went along. Amanda Kramer: Yeah. What I had decided to do was to set up a little corner for myself. No matter if it was going to be a good night or a bad night, didn’t matter. I just set up a comfortable chair with a book and a lamp. And so I knew that I had this spot to go to if I needed to. And that really gave me a source of comfort. So getting up is never easy. It’s hard to do. But knowing that there’s this comfortable, safe space to go to with a good book that I enjoy. I mean, it’s not half bad. It’s quiet, I’m alone, and I get to read a good book, and then eventually get back to sleep, or go back to bed. So really setting up that space helped. Because at first, I didn’t really know what to do. I was okay trying to figure out a project that would be quiet. So I decided that really, I got into biographies. I really started to read a lot of them. And so okay, I’m going to pick a couple, and I’m going to put them on the table, and they’re there if I need them. So it actually ended up being quite enjoyable. I mean, it’s hard to get up. But then once I was there, it was quite enjoyable. And that made it easier. And again, trusting the process. Trusting the process because it was working for me. So it was really no panic involved in the nights and getting up on those off nights. Because it was working, I was sleeping better, and there was a plan. I felt like I had a plan in place, and I was falling back on it. And that really, really helped. Martin Reed: So it sounds like what you’re referring to there is maybe before in the past when you’re having a difficult night, a lot of wakefulness. You’re just kind of at loss. “What do I do?” And our usual default human behavior I think is to try to achieve what you want to achieve. So when we are really struggling with all that wakefulness, we’ll maybe double down and try even harder to fall asleep. Put pressure on ourselves to fall asleep, a lot of tossing and turning. A lot of unpleasant wakefulness. And like you just touched upon, we do actually have an alternative option available to us. And that is to just do anything else that’s more pleasant when being awake doesn’t feel good. Because I think most of us know from experience at that point that sleep is unlikely to happen right at this moment. And it doesn’t feel good to be tossing and turning here. So how about we just do something else that we know is going to be a little bit more pleasant? It might not be super enjoyable. It might not even be enjoyable. It just has to be something that’s more pleasant compared to what we’re currently doing. So it sounds like for you, you found it really helpful to just have a plan in place. “If it doesn’t feel good for me to be awake, I’m just going to get out bed. I know where I’m going to go. I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to read this book. And then when conditions feel like they might be better for sleep to happen, I’ll return to bed.” And just kind of repeat the process. Okay to stay in bed when we’re awake for as long as it feels okay to be awake. But then if it starts to feel unpleasant, we’ve always got that opportunity to do something instead. Am I getting the gist of it right? Was that the kind of approach that you took? Amanda Kramer: Yeah. And that approach worked anywhere. I was always very nervous about traveling, going to someone else’s house, or being in a hotel. What if insomnia strikes? What am I going to do? But I worried less, much less about it because I had this plan. Which was just a book and a comfortable place to sit. So I just made sure that I had those things with me. And then before heading to bed, I would set up the little corner and know that it was there. And that really helped so much. Martin Reed: So did you find that you were a bit like a human yo-yo getting in and out, in and out of bed throughout the night? Or were you just out of bed, read a few chapters, and then you just go back to bed? Or was it just all different every single night, and you didn’t care as long as reading was more pleasant than struggling? Amanda Kramer: Early on in the process, it was a lot of up and down for sure. Few times a night, maybe. Again, less panic though. Less stress associated with being up because I had that plan that I could fall back on, and I really trusted it. “So here we go up. Get out of the bed because bed doesn’t feel good right now.” It felt so much better to be outside of bed. My heart rate went down. “Okay, I’m here. This is pleasant.” And then once I started feeling like, “Okay, I think I could enjoy the bed again,” went back. At the beginning of the process, there was a lot of up and down, but not stressful. I really got to the point where if a bed wasn’t feeling good, I would get out, read, and then come back to bed and fall asleep. So all of a sudden, I can’t remember exactly when the transition happened. But I realized that it was really just one time getting out, and that’s all I needed. And then I started to build confidence at that point. “Okay. So if it’s not happening, then maybe it’s just one time out. But maybe not.” My confidence started to build, so it got easier and easier. But the beginning stages are hard. Really hard. Really hard to get yourself up out of bed when you’re so exhausted and you just want to sleep. But it really does in fact feel so much better to be out of bed on those nights. Martin Reed: Yeah. I love how you described it, that it’s not easy. But it’s often more appealing than what the alternative is, which is to just stay in bed when it really just doesn’t feel good to be putting ourselves through that, in the hope that maybe sleep will happen. When we stay in bed, it doesn’t feel good. And we often fall into that trap of trying, putting effort into sleep, or trying to push away all the difficult thoughts and feelings that our brain is going to be generating as it tries to protect us from what it thinks of wakefulness as this physical threat. The brain doesn’t know the difference between a physical threat and an imagined threat. As far as the brain’s concerned, when you are trying to sleep, it thinks there’s an alligator under the bed about to get its teeth around you. The brain doesn’t know the difference. It’s trying to protect you, but it’s generating all this stuff that doesn’t feel good. Trying to push it away engages us in a battle. Trying to sleep never really works because we can’t control sleep anyway. Also, all we want to do is just remove the effort, kind of untangle ourselves from that struggle. And what can we control at the end of the day? The only thing we can control are our individual actions, our own bodily movements. So if we are struggling, we’re not feeling good, unfortunately we can’t control how we feel. Not sleeping, unfortunately we can’t control sleep. But what we can do is maybe get out bed or even stay in bed if we prefer, but just do something that makes that wakefulness more pleasant. And that’s really all we can do is engage in actions that are more appealing, more helpful than the alternative option. Amanda Kramer: Yeah, it sure does beat just lying in bed flipping and flopping, and waiting and stressing. Just the act of getting up out of bed feels good. “Okay, I’m going to try something else.” Martin Reed: Going to something you were talking about earlier on where you said maybe reducing the amount of time that you allot for sleep was something that was helpful. Which basically, all it comes down to for people not completely familiar with it is we are just looking to spend an amount of time in bed quite close to the amount of sleep we’re getting at the current time, rather than the amount of sleep we want to get. Because often, our temptation is to spend more time in bed, to give ourselves more opportunity to sleep. But often, all that does is just set us up for more nighttime wakefulness. There’s more opportunity to spend time awake at night. So if we’re, for example, averaging let’s say five hours of sleep, let’s see if we can get the amount of time we spend in bed closer to five hours rather than seven, eight, nine, or 10 hours. And often, how that helps is it prevents us from chasing after sleep because now we’ve got that earliest possible bedtime. We’ve got a consistent out of bedtime in the morning. But where I think it can really help is often, it brings back a sense of sleepiness rather than just fatigue as bedtime approaches. I think it’s really easy to misinterpret fatigue and sleepiness. Feeling really run down, worn out, exhausted, groggy. Sometimes that might not be sleepiness. That might be fatigue, just exhaustion, feeling worn out. And that doesn’t always lead to sleep. The only thing that leads to sleep is sleepiness itself. And when we get back that sense of sleepiness like, “I’m actually finding it hard to stay awake now,” I think that can just be so empowering. I remember one exchange that we had was you had a lot of these things that you felt you had to do in the evening to invite sleepiness to happen. And that was one of your concerns. You said to me, “I really want to move away from all these rituals and activities I’m kind of imposing on myself in an attempt to get sleepiness to happen. But I’m kind of nervous that if I start moving away from them, then I’m never going to feel sleepy.” Do you feel that having that sleep window helped you with that transition from moving away from all these additional rituals and routines you were putting on yourself, because the sleep window itself was helping you rediscover that sense of sleepiness in the evening? Amanda Kramer: Most definitely. And that really happened right off the bat. Really feeling a sense of sleepiness come in. At the end of the night, I had not experienced that in so long. I was always so up at night. But when we started to implement the sleep window and taking away the naps, I started to feel this natural sleepiness come in, in the evening. And it just felt like a sweet relief. I didn’t have to try to bring it on. It was naturally happening. “Okay, the body knows what it’s doing if you allow it to do it.” And yeah. Like I said earlier, that deep sense of sleepiness was overriding that any sort of nervousness there might have been otherwise it really took over. So sleep was much easier. Martin Reed: Exactly. As I like to say all the time, sleep always happens in the end. So the longer we are awake for, the harder it becomes to remain awake. And that in itself can be so reassuring, because it’s so easy to believe that I’m feeling anxious, for example. Or I feel my heart racing. And because I’m feeling those things, sleep just can’t happen now. But the truth is sleep can still happen. If we’ve been awake for long enough and the body needs sleep to happen, the sleep will still happen. These things can make sleep more difficult. If we’ve got a lot of that worry and that anxiety, maybe that kind of hurdle that sleep has to get over is up here instead of down here. But the longer we’re awake, that sleep drive builds and builds, eventually no matter what, it’s always going to get higher than even the most intense anxiety or physical sensations of arousal. And I think just recognizing, like we were discussing earlier, the presence of difficult thoughts or difficult feelings, difficult emotions, don’t mean that sleep won’t happen. You can experience that stuff and still even have good nights. I think what can definitely make sleep really difficult is when we engage in a battle with all that stuff. These thoughts are really difficult, so we might try not to think them, or we might try and push them away when they come into our mind. And all those emotions as well, often they don’t feel good. Especially in the middle of the night when we’re all by ourselves. So again, we try to fight them, try to avoid them. And I think engaging in that battle and that struggle is probably what’s more disruptive to sleep than just their presence. If we can get to a point where we just allow them to come and go as they want, which is obviously easier said than done. But if we can get to that point where we just allow them to sit there, drift in and out as they want, rather than getting involved in that battle, they become far less influential over our sleep. And what we do during the day too. Amanda Kramer: And just a couple of nights experiencing the anxiety come up in that anticipation of not sleeping and then sleeping. And even though there was that stress and anticipation or whatever that was, that sleep still came that night. That happened maybe once or twice, and that started to really build my confidence. That’s not going to determine if I sleep or not. That’s not necessarily going to determine whether or not I sleep. And that was very powerful. Martin Reed: Yeah. Have you found that over this whole process, just looking back on everything, that your relationship with those thoughts and those feelings, those emotions as and when they occur has changed? Because my guess is that you still experience some difficult thoughts, feelings, and emotions because you’re a human being. So you’re going to experience the full range of the human experience. But has there been a change just in the way you kind of respond to them or the effect that they have over you, the influence they have over you? And why do you think that is, if there has been that change? Amanda Kramer: That’s a good question. I see the thoughts now. I see them. I tell them, “I see you. You are not me. You don’t define me. You are separate from me.” I really do kind of almost have a conversation with these thoughts. You’re like, “You’re trying to disrupt me, and I see you doing that.” And in a way, doing that makes them sometimes disappear. Makes them less powerful by seeing them as separate. And what has helped me too, a lot, just find a sense of peace, and quiet that chatter is taking that last hour or so before bed, and finding a quiet seat, and taking time to read those books. I slipped into this routine where I’m just, doesn’t matter what time it is. At some point, I’ll just let go of the clocks altogether because it’s just late enough. And it’s a nice quiet moment to take in the night and then go to sleep when I feel sleepy. And it really just takes the pressure off. And if there is any of that chatter about not sleeping, or what if you don’t sleep and that kind of stuff it’s, “I see you. I see what you’re trying to do. But I’m going to take myself over here and have just a relaxing moment with my book. This is my time, my space.” And just trying to really stay empowered, because we have so much power and control. Martin Reed: I love that sentence that you said. Just saying, “I see you.” I think what it comes down to is acknowledgement. You are just acknowledging that thought, or that feeling, or that emotion is present. “I see you.” You’re saying it. Whether it’s in your mind or out loud, you’re acknowledging its presence. And I think that in itself can just be so helpful. Because just the fact that we’re acknowledging something that we’re thinking or feeling, even when it’s difficult, first and foremost tells the brain, “Okay, you are listening to me. So maybe I don’t have to yell quite so loud so you are listening.” But then just the act of acknowledging. Especially when we’re able to say, “Okay, this is a thought or this is a feeling. This is an emotion.” It’s not me, but it’s something that’s happening in my mind. My mind is generating this thought, this feeling, this emotion. And now I get to choose how to respond. Is that helpful? Is this thought going to help me right now? Is it actionable? Is it about something I have control over? If it is, great. If it’s not, then maybe we just, “All right, well thanks brain. I’m listening. I see you. I acknowledge what you’re telling me. But now I’m going to move on and redirect my focus or my attention on this instead.” But I think that acknowledgement is key, and your description of just saying, “I see you.” I think that’s a great way of just acknowledging what we’re thinking or what we’re feeling, and not getting caught up in that really exhausting struggle with trying to get rid of what we are thinking or we’re feeling. Amanda Kramer: You made the comparison of insomnia being like a bully that wants to come back and try to wreak havoc. And if you give that bully the time of day, then they’re going to get off on that, and they’re going to keep going. If you don’t let the bully phase you, then they might disappear and try to bother someone else. I love that analogy. Martin Reed: I think that that’s a really helpful way of exploring our relationship with our thoughts and our feelings. So many of them don’t feel good when we’re caught up in insomnia, so we want to fight them. But over the long term, I just don’t think it’s a battle we can win. We can maybe distract ourselves in the short term, or try and convince ourselves to think differently in the short term. But in the long term, I don’t think so. If we could do that, then we would be able to just fall in love, and genuinely love that person, and live happily ever after forever and ever, for the rest of our lives. We might be able to fool ourselves for a little bit of time, but probably not for the rest of our lives. Because we just can’t control those thoughts and those feelings. And some make us feel good. Some don’t. But when we don’t get caught up in the battle with them, they tend to hang out. Then they disappear, then they might come back. They might hang out for longer, then disappear. But they’re always transient. It can feel like they’re always there, but they come and go when we are able to free ourselves from that battle with them. Amanda Kramer: And taking the day like we talked about before, really enjoying the day, and finding the joy in those moments. I feel like it’s strengthening our drive to help to get rid of those bullies. Because you’re not taking all the anxiety about, “Well, it’s nighttime. Am I going to sleep?” And no, you’re present. You’re present. You’re arrived in your day, and you’re not allowing that anxiety to enter in and stay there. Martin Reed: Yeah. Especially if we can do all that stuff even when the mind is giving us all this difficult stuff to deal with. So it could be during the day, the brain’s like, “You’re too exhausted. You can’t do that today.” So it could just be like, “All right, I see.” You might even name that thought. That’s the doom and gloom thought, or it’s the you’re too tired thought. “Thanks brain. I know you’re looking out for me. But you know what? I’m going to do this anyway. Let’s see. Maybe I can, maybe I can’t. But I’m just going to give it a try.” And the more we can do that, we just separate the thoughts that we have from our actions. The thoughts that we have don’t always have to dictate our behaviors. We are in the middle of that. We always get to choose. And it can be so helpful. I think it can be empowering. Because we realize that no matter how difficult or intense the thought or a feeling that we have, we always get to choose how to respond. And really, it’s how we choose to respond that determines whether we engage in a struggle, which is really exhausting, and can kind of distract us, and take all of our energy from us, and we end up moving away from the kind of life we want to live. Or whether we kind of redirect our attention on what we have control over, even when all this difficult stuff’s going on. We make that conscious choice that I’m going to do something that helps me take the other path towards the kind of life I want to live. And I just think it can be really empowering, and it can just free up so much of our energy to do what matters. Amanda Kramer: Yes. And there are also some very well-meaning people that might give that advice too. Like, “You’re too tired. You should rest. You should stay home.” There might be those supportive people in your life that’s giving you that advice. So it’s important to stay true and stay focused, and committed on the path. Martin Reed: It also goes back to what you were saying earlier is we need to be kind to ourselves too. We don’t have to be a superhero every day. “I’m going to do every single thing on my list no matter what.” We might have a day where we just need to take care of ourselves, whatever that might mean for us. Just being kind to ourselves, whether it means talking to ourselves in a kind way because we can be so hard on ourselves when we’re caught in a struggle. Just talking to ourselves kindly. And behaving in a way that’s kind to ourselves. And there might be days where we need some rest or we need to treat ourselves. Let’s do that. We don’t have to be a superhero every day. We’re human beings. What can be helpful is just being kind to ourselves, and just engaging in things that are important to us, no matter how small those things might be. So we’ve talked about a few different things. A few different changes that you made while we were working together. As I talk whilst this freight train is just running behind me in the background. But we talked about the sleep window that you found helpful. Just allotting and amount of time for sleep that’s more or less aligned with the amount of sleep you tend to be averaging at the current time. You gave yourself a plan for responding to nighttime wakefulness. If you’re awake during the night, that’s okay. But if it doesn’t feel good, I’ve got the opportunity to do something else, and I’ve got a clear plan in place so there’s no ambiguity. So if it doesn’t feel good to be awake, I got that little corner set up somewhere. I’m going to read a book. That’s where I’m going to go. If things start to feel more appropriate for sleep, then I’ll go back to bed. Repeat as needed. I’m going to get out of bed around the same time each day. I’m going to avoid those daytime naps. I’m going to acknowledge the difficult stuff I’m feeling, rather than trying to battle with it. I’m going to do stuff that matters to me during the day. Whether that’s just being kind to myself. Or engaging in activities that are important, enriching, meaningful, aligned with my values. And avoid the daytime naps as well. So we’re just removing ourselves from all that effort to sleep, to chase after sleep, to make sleep happen. That’s a lot of stuff we covered. Was there anything else that you wanted to mention that we haven’t covered? Amanda Kramer: I really find a lot of solace in the buffer hour that we have before bed. That has become still so important to me. Even though I’ve become a very consistent sleeper for the most part now, I am just really true to this beautiful time before bed. And it’s not this time that I use to prepare for sleep. It’s not like in preparation for sleep. It’s just this space that is for me. Daughter’s asleep and husband’s usually asleep. So I get to just take in that little bit of night. I really love that it’s there, and it’s given me a nice relationship with the nighttime. I try not to put pressure on that time, because it’s not really about going to sleep. It’s just about enjoying that quiet, peaceful part of the night. Martin Reed: Yeah. I’m glad that you mentioned that again, because it’s something that can trip us up. And we talked about it a little bit earlier, about how we can… I think a lot of it comes to either well-intentioned advice from friends or looking online, “Do this before you go to bed.” Whether it’s take a shower, turn off all the lights, turn off the TV, drink a warm glass of milk, or some sleepy tea or stuff like that. It’s so easy to add all these rituals before bed. But the truth is there’s no ritual that’s going to make sleep or sleepiness happen. All we’re doing is just engaged in more effort around sleep, and that’s completely counterproductive. But what can be helpful is just giving us ourselves time in the evening before going to bed, that’s just for us. So let’s say an hour. An hour before we’re planning on going to bed, that’s just me time. I’m just going to do stuff that I want to do, that I personally find relaxing or enjoyable. And I think that’s as far as we need to go with it. It just needs to be time that we enjoy, to help us make that transition between our wakeful lives, with all that pressure and struggle that we have to deal with. To getting to a place where we just can decompress a little bit. And it can be just so powerful to have that time for ourselves, to do whatever we want to do before we go to bed. Amanda Kramer: There was a moment in time where I was really trying to figure out what to do during that hour, which kind of goes perfectly alongside trying to figure out what to do to set yourself up well for sleep, the whole day trying to set. It’s like that’s not really what it’s about, is it? It’s not about doing the perfect thing. It’s really just about doing something enjoyable, whatever that is. It was stretching, it was writing, or it was reading. It changed, it morphed, and it wasn’t necessarily one particular thing. But for a little while, I was trying to seek the correct activity, which was really counterproductive. Martin Reed: It’s so easy to look back on it now, isn’t it? And just recognize all those things that we were engaged in, that we’re able to reflect on and be like, “That wasn’t helpful.” But at the time, we’re engaging all these experiments because we want to fix the problem that we’re going through. And sometimes, we might feel like, “I did that and then I slept well. So now as long as I keep doing that thing, I’m all good.” But then what tends to happen is because that thing wasn’t what generated sleep, when we then have a difficult night, we’re left scrambling for a new thing. We just get caught up in that rabbit hole. It’s a process to get to that point. I don’t think there’s an easy magic switch that just overnight, we have this big revelation, and we’re able to drop all that temptation to engage in rituals, and safety behaviors, and chasing after sleep. I think it is a process, and it takes a lot of practice. And there’s ups and downs along the way. Using your experience from when we started to explore these changes to you getting to the point where you felt, “I don’t think that insomnia is this big influencer over my life anymore. It feels like it’s kind of in the rear view mirror now rather than a huge movie screen in front of my face, blocking out everything else in my life.” How long would you say that process took? Amanda Kramer: Maybe six months, for me. It got better and better. I mean, I felt like I was on a good trajectory, with some disruptions here and there. But really in order for me to feel okay, I have given myself now all of the space during the day to do what I do, to care for myself, to care for my family. All that, do my work, and not have to constantly be figuring out how I’m going to be sleeping, or what’s going to happen. Because that took up so much of my thinking. I think that was about half a year. But it was such a clear progression of sleeping better and gaining more and more confidence. The more better nights I had, the more confidence I had. So I felt like I was becoming stronger and more trusting of myself. Martin Reed: Yeah, that’s great. I asked you that because I was suspecting that you were going to say something along the line of months. I think it’s helpful because we have to recognize that it’s a process. It usually takes time. Just as it took time for the insomnia to develop, it’s going to take time to pick away at it, and to change all those habits, or rituals, or routines that we’re currently engaged in to kind of unstick ourselves. And it takes time. And we often experience ups and downs along the way. And during those difficult times, the brain starts firing up again, telling us, “You’re struggling.” Generates all those difficult thoughts and feelings. But that stuff we can’t control. What we can control is our actions. So if we can just stay committed to ensuring that our behaviors are helping to set the stage for sleep, that’s really all we can do. And that our behaviors are just helping us move toward the kind of life we want to live, even when all this difficulty and struggle is still present. That’s really all we can do. And as long as we can stay committed to that, we tend to find we are not getting rid of difficult thoughts and feelings. They’re always going to be with us. But they’re going to have less of an influence over us. And then in turn, the insomnia or sleep and wakefulness, regardless of what that looks like, tends to have less of an influence over us. Because our focus now is on all the things we can control, and all the things that free us up to just live the kind of life we want to live. And when we do that, all the difficult stuff still there, but just maybe a lower volume. A progressively lower volume, and less influential over our behaviors. So Amanda, what would you say an average night is like for you these days? If you had to reflect on what a typical night is for you, what would that be like? Amanda Kramer: Typical night, I would around 10:00 or so, just turn down the house and have, again, that hour. Pretty quiet, very relaxing time. And then when I’m sleepy, feel sleepy, I go to bed. And I’ve been getting maybe seven hours of sleep at night. Seven typically. And I don’t need anything. I don’t take anything. I don’t need any of those pills. I don’t need any of that outside stuff. I just rely on myself. And generally, nights are good. Generally, I sleep well. Every now and then, there’s a little disruptive evening. And I deal with that, and then I’m generally back on track. And I am feeling more energetic during the day. I feel like I have more clarity during the day, because I’m not taking all that stuff. I remember pretty early on actually in the program, I felt like I could see colors and hear sounds differently, clearer. There was this clarity. So really beautiful stuff, and a real gratitude. Because I know what it feels like to not get good sleep. So then to get the sleep, to wake up to know, “I did it. I’m proud of myself. I didn’t need to take some pills. I didn’t need to do it. I did it myself. My body knows what it’s doing.” I still do. A year later, I wake up feeling proud every morning. “I did it.” It feels like a real accomplishment, and I carry that with me. Martin Reed: That’s great. Well Amanda, I’m really grateful for the amount of time you’ve spent with us just talking about your own story, your own experience. I know everyone listening to this is going to get some value from it. I’ve got some value from it myself, just hearing you describe certain things. I love the way you acknowledge those thoughts and those feelings by just saying things like, “I see you.” I thought that was great. But before I let you go, I did have one last question for you, which I ask every guest. So I don’t want you to feel left out. And it’s this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, that they just cannot do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them? Amanda Kramer: I would say that I understand what they’re going through. The loneliness at night, those feelings of isolation. And that I really totally understand how hard it is, but that they’re not alone. They might feel like they’re alone, but they’re not. And that the human body and brain is so strong and resilient. And I really believe that it can readapt. It can be reconditioned. And that’s just exactly what this program did for me. In the darkest days, I did not think I’d be able to fall asleep again. I just did not think I could do it on my own. I thought I’d be just taking pills for the rest of my life. But everything’s dumped, and I’m doing it. And it’s because this program helped to just reshape some of my habits and my thinking around sleep. So it works, and it’s powerful. And it takes a lot of work, and it takes a commitment and a little bit of pain upfront. But it is so worth it in the long term. You will sleep again, and you’ll do it on your own. I’m a big believer, so take the leap of faith. Martin Reed: That’s great. I think that’s a fantastically positive note to end on. So thank you again, Amanda, for taking the time to come onto the podcast. Amanda Kramer: It’s my pleasure. Thanks Martin. Martin Reed: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients. Martin Reed: Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com. Martin Reed: With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone. Martin Reed: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page