How Jessy separated herself from her thoughts, moved away from medication, and transformed her relationship with sleep (#50)

Transcript

Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live.

Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

Martin Reed:
Okay, Jessy, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, no problem. It’s exciting to be here. I’ve been looking forward to it.

Martin Reed:
Let’s just dive right in and get started, as always, right at the beginning. When did your sleep problems first begin, and what do you think caused those initial issues with sleep?

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, that’s a great question. My sleep problems began sort of right, maybe a few months, after quarantine began in the US, in California. I was living at the time in San Francisco, in a big co-op with around 20 people.

Martin Reed:
Wow.

Jessy Baer:
Maybe at that time it was … I absolutely loved it, and it was all my best friends, and I was so deeply attached to that community. And when COVID happened, it presented a lot of challenges for community living. And there was just a lot of conflict, a lot of people. It had been a very stable place, and I had lived there five years, best friends there. Again, very, very attached to this space, couldn’t imagine life without it. And during COVID, people moved out. Two factions started happening in the house, and there was just incredible, incredible conflict. And it was really unclear. It wasn’t this safe home anymore. It was this place of conflict and people leaving.

And I think it was just deeply, deeply, deeply troubling to me. And I think it started off a stress reaction that actually started. I got, I never had had acid reflux before, but I came down with that, and then that happened. And then a few months later, the insomnia started to happen, and it just got worse and worse. Yeah, but it was very much triggered by, I think, feeling very deeply this deep source of home, and attachment had been completely overturned and feeling really sort of unsafe and concerned about the future of this community and these relationships.

Martin Reed:
So what was sleep like for you at that time? Was it kind of you were just starting to find it hard to fall asleep at the start of the night? Or was it waking during the night and finding it hard to fall back to sleep? Or maybe it was a combination of all of those things.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, so well, one thing I think is kind of interesting, and I think it kind of goes to some of this stuff around how sleep hygiene is really not that useful. Because I had come down with this acid reflux, and my doctor had told … And I was someone who drank caffeine in the morning and then had maybe a glass of wine at night. And I had stopped both of those because of the reflux. I was told that would help. So I was technically in the state where I was not drinking caffeine or alcohol. That’s actually when the insomnia happened. So it just further proved to me that it’s really not related to those things at all. But yeah, no, I remember it happened kind of slowly. It would just be a few nights where I wouldn’t be able to fall asleep. And then it would sort of become … It kind of progressed, I think as my stress around the community falling apart progressed. And then it turned into not being able to fall asleep or waking up in the middle of the night.

And it would just happen at either … It wasn’t consistently not being able to fall asleep or waking up in the middle of the night. It was just both. It was both of those. And it was more, just it was increasing, I think. So the off nights maybe started out once a week. They started going twice a week, started going a few times a week. I started, then I started developing the fear of not being able to sleep and it becoming something, a fear around sleep, not just my stress around the community. And started Googling insomnia and finding all these diagnoses of, if you’re having off nights twice a week, you have insomnia. And then I started really freaking out and thinking I have a condition. And it just kind of spiraled, honestly. And yeah, it really spiraled from there.

Martin Reed:
So you kind of touched upon it there. What most of us do when we face a problem in life is we kind of turn to Google to find the answers. What kind of things had you tried before you found Insomnia Coach, before you began this journey, where now you’re able to look back and know what was helpful and what wasn’t quite so helpful? What kind of things had you tried back then on reflection? It’s understandable, why we tried them, but perhaps they weren’t that helpful in the end.

Jessy Baer:
I tried so many things. I tried a valerian root. I tried CBD. I tried magnesium. I tried, man, I don’t smoke marijuana. It doesn’t really agree with me. I get kind of anxious on it, but I’ve decided maybe marijuana will do it. I tried that, got really anxious, was up for many hours, because I was so anxious. It was very much not the right thing. But I was like, I’ll try anything again. Again, as I mentioned, I wasn’t even drinking caffeine or alcohol during that time. That was not even part of my diet.

What else? I tried sleeping in different rooms. I tried asking my friend, because I started to have a negative association with my room in my house. And I think also because I was doing everything in that room during quarantine, I was working in that room. I was sleeping in that room. I was hanging out in that room. It was this tiny room with everything. So I’ve tried. I had got some of my housemates who were gone. I tried to go to their room with an off night. I tried more abstract psychotherapy work. I was like clearly, maybe there’s something deeper to solve here. So I think I tried psychotherapy and just doing that. That didn’t work. I also, man, I tried writing all my worries out on a piece of paper before bed, because I know that’s a technique where you can get your worries out that way.

That did not help. That technique really did not work for me. It just made me kind of think about my worries more. It didn’t feel like a release. And then I guess the biggest thing I tried, I had kind of a freak-out call with my primary care doctor, who’s wonderful. She’s a really wonderful doctor. I had a real breakdown call with her, and she prescribed me Trazodone. Yeah, Trazodone, which is more an anti-anxiety medication. But I remember, I think she was just … I think I was calmer after that call, because she seemed confident that it might work.

And so I remember I took the first Trazodone pill and slept well that night. And so I was like okay, maybe this is the last straw. It’s my primary care doctor. This is the last thing I’m trying, and if this doesn’t work, nothing will work. And I remember I slept well that night, I think, because I was just calm, because we had had a very emotional session. And I had just vented about everything and all the grief I was feeling. And she seemed confident. But then the second night is … It didn’t work. And I had a terrible night of sleep, and then I really started to lose hope, because if the thing my doctor hadn’t prescribed didn’t work, then I didn’t know who was going to have confidence. If my doctor couldn’t be confident in this, then I didn’t know who could. So yeah, that was the trigger to that actually led.

And actually one thing in the background, I remember I had tried reaching out to Stanford to just sleep therapists. I had Googled. I was like, is there some kind of therapy that specializes in sleep? I just was thinking, is there some specialist, sleep specialist? And I remember Googling Stanford and calling them, because I lived in near Stanford at the time, and trying to get an appointment with them. And they couldn’t give me an appointment for six months or something.

Martin Reed:
Wow.

Jessy Baer:
Because they were so backed up, because there were so many people having insomnia issues at this moment in quarantine. I think a lot of people were having a similar situation to me and that life stressors had gotten out of control, and then this had triggered insomnia. So I remember just thinking there’s no hope there. And as I can just share, so this, all this moment of the Trazodone not working, I was just so desperate, I remember, and feeling just hopeless and so alone, so alone. I felt like no … just so alone. It was such a … I felt like there was this huge filter on me in the world and me and my future. But I remember, I was walking the dog, and I was just looking at my phone, desperate to not feel so alone in this. And I have a Stitcher podcast, and I just searched insomnia. And I just did that, and your program showed up, which is so serendipitous. And I was like Insomnia Coach, interesting.

And then I remember listening. I still remember the first interview of yours with this woman, this wonderful woman I listened to on my walk. And that was seriously a transformational moment, because I had never heard an insomnia success story. Everyone had just told me that, if you have insomnia, you’re stuck with it for the rest of your life. It’s just kind of this hopeless thing. And I remember that was the first thing that gave me hope. And then I found your program. But it was really after desperation and trying so many things. And even the doctor-prescribed medicine wasn’t even working. Yeah, it was a long road to find your podcast.

Martin Reed:
You’re not the first person to say how powerful it was just to find other people out there sharing their story and not only sharing their story as in all the ways they’re struggling, so we know that we’re not alone. But when people are talking about their kind of transformation, it is possible to change our relationship with sleep. It doesn’t have to be this struggle, this battle that we have to endure all night, every night and struggle with all day, every single day. There is a way through it all. And that in itself can be so comforting. It’s so easy to just believe that we’re broken when we’re caught up in this huge struggle with it. But the truth is, none of us are ever broken. We get stuck from time to time, and we just need a little bit of help getting unstuck.

And that’s why I’m so grateful for people like yourself who are willing to come onto the podcast and just share their story. Because every story is maybe a little bit different, but the big theme is generally the same. There’s like this trigger for the sleep disruption. There’s all the things that we try to do to fix it, which tend not to be that helpful. Then that leads to more worry, makes us think with there’s something uniquely wrong. But when we hear that story in others and recognize that we’re not unique, we’re not alone, there is a way forward. It’s just so powerful and so comforting and reassuring and motivating. So I’m really grateful for guests just like yourself coming on and sharing this story.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, no, your podcast was actually a huge part of my recovery. Because I did your program, and of course off nights happen. And what I would always do when I was in that point where I had an off night, and I was getting a little stressed or worried or my trust was getting a little shaken, I would just go on a long walk. I remember I had these walks, these hikes and walks throughout Los Altos, where I was, that I would go on. And I would just listen to a new one of your stories. And that was the medicine that helped me in these moments of doubt and fear. I just would listen to one of your stories. I feel like I listened to so many of them. It is just one of those things where I feel like it takes … You can hear the same thing over, and it helped to hear it over and over again and from different people.

It didn’t get old. It was just every single time, it was incredibly useful. Every new voice was incredibly useful, and it really just helped me normalize. It gave me a lot of hope and also just normalized for me the twists and turns and ups and downs of the journey, because it was a nonlinear journey. And to hear their different stories and all their unique twists and turns and moments of doubt, it was so, so helpful.

And I think there was something about moving. I was just walking, going on these long nature walks, listening to their voices. And it just really helped me get through this. And there was no one … I’m someone who, if I’m going through emotional pain or a struggle, I actually do share it with a lot of people. I’ll be open and because I’m trying to get wisdom and advice from people and figure out how to navigate through this difficult situation. And I was doing that with insomnia.

And no one, I didn’t get any … All of the nourishment of the stories on your podcast I was not finding in my community or in the people I was sharing with. So it was just so incredible. I wasn’t finding that perspective anywhere else in my life. So it’s such a huge part of my recovery. I know it’s not even officially part of your program, but that was a huge part of your program for me, is that supplemental listening to the podcast and the interviews.

Martin Reed:
Yeah, it is kind of amazing, isn’t it? When you listen to some of these episodes, that everyone’s journey is remarkably similar from the start line to the kind of finish line. But the journey itself, like the twists and turns or the direction we take, there can be some little differences there. But broadly speaking, the journey is almost identical from person to person. It’s really interesting, just the whole process from going from the struggle and all the effort to a place where we remove ourselves from that struggle, remove ourselves from the effort, kind of open ourselves up to doing things that we have control over, focusing on our actions rather than getting tangled up in a battle with all the stuff that’s out of our control.

And I think it’s really helpful to hear it in lots of different voices and from people with lots of different backgrounds. Because although from person to person the message might be quite similar, we all express ourselves a little bit differently. So you might have heard something said a few times before, but it doesn’t click until someone describes it in a certain way that kind of really resonates with you. And yeah, so it can be so powerful to just hear those stories and just realize that we are not alone, we’re not broken, there’s nothing uniquely wrong and that there is a way to move through this.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Martin Reed:
Before we kind of move on to that process of transformation, I’m just curious to hear how you were finding that the insomnia was affecting your days, the kind of life that you wanted to live. Because a lot of the time we hear about insomnia being difficult at night, but what a lot of people don’t realize that maybe you’ve never really experienced insomnia before is it’s kind of like this 24-hour-a-day struggle. It’s not just the nighttime. It’s the days that can be difficult too. How is insomnia kind of affecting your days, affecting your waking life, so to speak?

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, it was hugely affecting my life before I found your podcast. It was really a big shadow over my life. I think as it happened more consistently, I was still living in this community house that was sort of having all this tension but I was still quite attached to. And as I was unable to sleep increasingly more and more, I just felt this kind of filter between me and the world around me and in my future in an exciting life and connection to others. And I just felt isolated from the world and not an active participant in my life, my future, my dreams. I really felt so alone, and I couldn’t get excited about life. I felt my life had been ruined, kind of. And I couldn’t even envision what … I couldn’t even think about my future or anything. And so I remember, it got so bad that I was so attached to this 22-person community, and I didn’t want to leave.

I really wanted to stick it out through the conflict and work through and rebuild, because we were bringing in new people and rebuilding the community at that time. And I wanted to be there and participate in that and kind of make that the next chapter of my life. But I felt so I couldn’t do it. And so I actually ended up moving home to live with my parents for a period during COVID, because I just needed support. And it’s one of those things where it was so hard at the time. It was incredibly hard for me to leave my community and move home. But in hindsight, it was a really beautiful thing, because I had this really special period of life living with my parents, which I never would’ve had before. And it was during COVID, so it wasn’t quite as … That was relatively a normal thing to do, and so it didn’t feel as … It didn’t feel like I was totally leaving the youth or young person’s life in the same way.

Yeah, and so I moved home with my parents, and still though, that didn’t fix the insomnia. So I moved home with my parents. I was in a more supportive environment with less conflict, and it was more peaceful. I wasn’t in the middle of the city. I thought that was, I guess, another thing I tried. I thought that might fix it, but it didn’t. But it was still nice to be with them, and I did feel kind of safer there. But I think the other thing that started to really affect my life is I really liked my job, actually, at the time. I’m a design strategist. I work at a really cool design agency. And I was actually … I enjoy my job. But I was, because of the insomnia, and my job is a lot of thinking and higher level cognitive tasks, and I was struggling. I was really, really struggling.

I was every day to do the things I needed to do for my job, because I was so tired. And I remember I was thinking about, I just needed to quit my job and just really quit my job, live at home, just heal, do nothing. That was kind of my instinct. And I remember talking to my parents, and they were like, if you need to do that, that’s fine. And also, this was meanwhile, I was actually supposed to be launching into something that was even more intense, which is my job. And then I was doing a master’s program in behavioral science, which was supposed to kick off at the same time. That got delayed a year anyway just because of COVID, because it’s in London. It’s like this travel to London thing. But anyway, I was in my head. I was like I can’t even conceive of doing school and my job at this. I can’t even do my job. I am really … The future I had envisioned for myself is so far from reality. And I was single, and I was like I can’t even imagine trying to date in this state.

Yeah, so anyway, I’m just kind of rambling, but I do feel like all the dreams and everything I was engaged in, I just kind of felt like I couldn’t do anymore. And it was really unsettling.

Martin Reed:
Yeah, it is really interesting just to hear you describing all that. Because when we’re faced with all these difficulties, that problem-solving mind, it kind of goes into overdrive. And it tells us all these things that we should withdraw from or we should avoid or that we can’t do. And because our brain is kind of like our best friend, always there for us, always looking out for us, we can often just accept what it says without question. And so it’s telling us, “Maybe you should call in sick, or maybe you should quit your job, or maybe you can’t go out with friends. You can’t go dating. You haven’t got enough sleep.” And so we kind of listen to that, and we can so easily get caught up in it and kind of pushed away from the kind of life we want to live. So now not only are we dealing with that struggle of the insomnia and the wakefulness, but we’re also, we’re kind of withdrawing from all the things that are important to us and that kind of help us live a rich and meaningful life.

Jessy Baer:
Totally, and that was actually a big aha for me. Because I feel like in my head, if you’re sick or not feeling well, you need to rest. Or that’s the association I had, and so I thought that taking a sick day, that quitting my job, which I liked but didn’t think I could handle, that not going on outings with friends, I thought all these things were ways I could heal and rest. And it was the right thing to do, and so it was a huge aha moment, I think, in your program. And I didn’t hear otherwise. Everybody else supported that. They’re like, “Yeah, take it easy, take a nap, take a sick day.” That was what in my community and parents and everyone, they were so supportive of these things. Because they had the same conception that if you’re sick, you’re not feeling mentally well, you need to rest.

And so hearing your podcast and hear and really hearing you confidently say that’s the wrong thing to do, and you should continue to live your full life, and that was a huge aha. Because once I knew that, it really relieved the pressure off sleep, because I realized that I could do these things. And it was nice, because I think before I had had this mixed relationship, because I thought they were maybe hurting me and making it worse, because I was tired and not feeling well. But once the switch in my brain flipped, and after hearing about your techniques, and I started associating being really tired but still going out with friends, being really tired but still going to work, being really tired but not taking a sick day as good and healthy and helping me versus bad and hurting me. It was a really big turnaround. That was a huge turnaround moment. So yeah, anyway, just that was a big, big moment for me.

Martin Reed:
It’s tricky, right? Because we still want to keep doing things that are important to us, that are meaningful. But at the same time, we are human beings still. And so we still have to mix that in with some self kindness or some self care, kind of acknowledge that, yeah, things are difficult for me right now. Maybe if I’m kind of training for a marathon or something, maybe I won’t go out and do a 20-mile run today. Maybe I’ll just do a 10-mile run, or maybe I’ll just do some work on my training routine or some research on that. So we can still do things that are connected to things that are meaningful and important, even if we might not necessarily feel like up for the whole shebang, just diving right into everything, that really overwhelming schedule after really difficult nights. We can still do things that are connected to what matters, to what’s important.
So we can exercise some self care without it completely derailing us and just leading to us withdrawing from life and moving away from the kind of life we want to live. So it is a little bit of a balance. And so I think we do need to be kind to ourselves, recognize that we are human. But as you said, really we got two choices when we are faced with that struggle, is we can give up and withdraw from everything that’s important to us. Or we can see if there’s any way we can continue to do what matters, what we find important, what we find meaningful and enriching just to keep us moving on that path, moving toward the life we want to live, the person we want to be. Because the only possible alternative is moving away from that self, and that doesn’t usually help us over the longer term.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. I think self kindness, sleep or not, it’s just something that is such a big deal to practice. I’ve been actually really trying to work on that in just life in general, because it’s so important. But as you’re saying this, I totally agree. Because when I reflect on my journey, so technically moving home with my parents could have been viewed as a retreat. But actually it was such a good move. I’m very happy I did that. I was in a really fragile state. I really needed that mom and dad nourishment and that home-cooked meal every night and that level of attention and to not be in an environment that had a lot of conflict and was stressful like that. So it’s a good point. It’s like balancing, still doing what you’re going to do but also being kind to yourself and acknowledging you are in … At least for me, I was in a fragile state, and I needed to be in an environment, if possible, that would be a nurturing one.

Martin Reed:
I think it can be a lot easier, once that stuff is behind us, to reflect back and be like yeah. I did the right thing by trying to stick to what mattered, by still going into work, not calling in sick, going out with friends. But when we’re kind of tangled up in all that struggle, it’s really hard to do things like that. So I’m curious to hear, how were you able to face that? So you went through this process of withdrawing from things or considering withdrawing from things, turned that around and decided no. I’m going to do this stuff anyway. What was that process like, and how did you manage to stay committed to following through on that? Especially when you were feeling really tired or really fatigued or really anxious, really frustrated, dealing with all that difficult stuff that tends to come with insomnia?

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, that’s a good question, because it is a distinctive space to be to having not slept well. And for me, I mean I think for everybody, but sleep very much affects my emotions. It’s so helpful to realize we can still do everything. And we can still live a full life, even with off nights of sleep. But I really don’t feel oftentimes well after sleeping really, really poorly. And so yeah, how do I battle through that? Because it’s not fun, because you know you’re not feeling well. I think for me, again, just kind of the mantra that this is good and also that I’ll be more tired tonight after this. I think also, I think there’s a couple other things. I think one, I also think about the alternative. And when I’m in that state, just being alone and watching Netflix, that doesn’t make me feel great either.

I start ruminating. Things that aren’t just kind of doing, I guess, things that technically are associated with kind of taking a break don’t necessarily help. Because after just if I were to just lie in bed all day and try to read or watch Netflix, I might feel, I’ll probably feel even worse after that, for myself. Some people, that could be nourishing. But for me, I’ll probably just start ruminating more. And then I think a big thing for me that helps, and I think this is different for everybody, but I think being able to be open with how … If I’m doing something social or especially if it’s something social like going out with a friend or even work, though, just being able to be emotionally honest with whoever I’m with and just say, “I’m not feeling well today. I’m excited to be with you and to be here, but I’m not feeling well today.”

And maybe share a little bit about what’s going on that’s hard, and I found that really helped, because then I felt just a deeper emotional connection with them. I felt less alone. And even though I was feeling awful, I could still more fully engage in that activity with them. But not everyone can hold that so that I could use that for some people and not others. But that really helped. I think on those off nights, days after off nights, if I could be in environments where I could be a little bit emotionally honest about how I’m not feeling well, I could connect more deeply and get more engaged, even though I wasn’t feeling great.

Martin Reed:
Maybe it’s connected to acknowledgement, just acknowledging that we are not feeling good and that that’s okay for us not to be feeling good in that moment, and then combining it with still doing things that are important. Sometimes it’s like we swap but for and. So for example, I want to go out, but I feel exhausted. So what if we can change it to, I want to go out, and I feel exhausted. Or I’m going to go out, but I feel exhausted. I’m going to go out, and I feel exhausted.

So there’s that difficulty there. There’s that stuff that’s around us, that’s showing up, that we wish wasn’t there. We’re acknowledging that, but then we’re still doing what matters, even though there’s that stuff we wish wasn’t there. Even though that is still present, we’re still able to do what matters and do what’s important, even though it’s there.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, I really love that, and. And I think that’s something just in life in general I’m working on, is just realizing that two things that are really different can be true at the same time and that holding space for all that complexity and realizing it can live together and all be true, even though it seems at odds and having a kind heart towards all of it. Because yeah, exactly, I feel awful. I’m going to go out, and yeah. And I think it is good, because I acknowledge. I think for me it makes it, when I can’t acknowledge the emotional truth of I feel awful, it makes it worse. Because then I’m putting all this energy towards masking it, and I’m feeling kind of guilty that I feel awful. And yeah, it makes it way harder. It’s like this double arrow.

There’s this Buddhist concept of the single arrow is just feeling awful. And then the double arrow is then feeling bad about it and trying to hide it and all these things. And it’s like, why shoot yourself? It’s like double arrow, just the single arrow is bad enough. So anyway, yeah. It’s nice to be able to acknowledge the really negative feelings that happen during insomnia and just hold them and just not try to pretend like you’re happy in that moment.

Martin Reed:
So this is probably related, but one thing I was curious to hear from you is because I remember when we were working together. Every now and then, when you’d kind of have some difficult nights coming back, you’d have some good nights. Maybe we’d start to feel a little bit more confident. And then some difficult nights happen, and we find that confidence gets shaky again. Maybe this isn’t going to work. I’m broken. I’m beyond help. All those fear and worries and anxieties and frustrations, all that difficult stuff would start to show up again. How did you start to respond to that arrival of all those thoughts and those feelings that are really difficult and uncomfortable in a different way to … Maybe you had once responded to them in the past.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think a big thing that was helpful was sort of separating my thoughts from reality. Or just because it is real, I’m really having these thoughts, doesn’t mean it’s true, doesn’t mean these thoughts are true. So I think there is something nice about separating myself from the thoughts. And to be honest, I think it was. As I mentioned earlier, it was just listening to this in those moments, just listening to your podcast, going on a walk, listening to your podcast, reminding myself, everybody goes through this. And I guess that was it. It was also, so it was one, just realizing these thoughts are just because we think something doesn’t mean it’s true. In our mind, this is a habit, a habit of my mind. But then also realizing that this is a very normal part of the process. Had an off night, that’s normal. It would be not normal to not be having an off night. This is actually the normal, correct, right part of the process. This is not a linear process.

I’ve listened to a million interviews. Everyone has talked about various types of this kind of thing happening. So that was also, I think, a big thing, is just really instilling off night is not off. It’s actually on. It’s just normal. That’s actually to be expected. And then just crystallizing that with all the interviews that you had done and really hearing how they all had off nights too. And I think now, so I think that was what I did when I was in the height of the insomnia. And then now I have off nights too. I do think I’m a sensitive sleeper in general, but now I don’t even get worried about off nights at all, because it’s always very … I think about why, and there’s all … It’s normally a stressor. I mean there’s still off nights where I don’t even know why. But a lot of times there’s a reason, and I just don’t even think. I don’t think anything of it anymore. I just know that it’s really, really normal to have off nights. Even people who don’t have insomnia, it’s really, really normal to have off nights, depending on what’s going on in your life.

And I’m not religious, but there is something about … Lately I have been doing some kind of spiritual work, I guess. And something I have been trying to cultivate is just a bit more trust and faith in the universe and just the twists and turns of life in general. And I think, I don’t know, that’s a hard thing to quantify. That’s really hard to quantify. But I think just having trust and faith in a more abstract, spiritual sense also helped and just really just trusting in the twists and turns of this weird universe and feeling like something, feeling confident that my growth, it’ll result in my growth in that process, I guess.

Martin Reed:
You said earlier on that you’re finding that you were practicing separating yourself from your thoughts, and I thought that was a really interesting sentence. I’m curious to hear your thought on what you believe that process to be. Just from what we’ve discussed so far, it sounds to me like the way you were separating yourself from your thoughts involved first acknowledging the thought, allowing it to exist, maybe naming it, noticing it and then maybe asking yourself what it’s saying. Is there some meaning? What’s my mind trying to tell me here? So for example, let’s say we have a job interview, and we’re feeling really anxious about it. Well, what’s our mind telling us? It’s probably telling us that this is important to us, that this is meaningful to us. It’s not trying to sabotage us. There’s probably some information inside that thought that’s useful. And then taking all that in and then deciding, how do we want to respond? Because ultimately, we always get to choose how to respond, and we can respond in a way that maybe isn’t using that information well. So let’s use that job interview. We’re feeling anxious.

Okay, I’m feeling anxious, because this is a job that I really want. It’s really aligned with my values and who I want to be, but I’m feeling anxious. Maybe I should call in and cancel it. So we’ve got that choice. We can understand what that thought is telling us and then work in a way that is aligned with the life we want to live. So we still go to that interview even though we feel anxious. Or we can use that information and get pushed away from the life we want to live. We really don’t want to experience that anxiety. So we cancel the job interview and move away from that opportunity. So separate myself and my thoughts. Does that sound like the process that you follow, where you’re acknowledging the appearance of the thought? Maybe not spending forever, but what’s it telling me here? Is it trying to tell me something and then choosing how to respond? Would you say that that’s like that’s the gist of it, or was it different for you?

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, no, I think it had a lot of those components. I think getting to the emotional truth of the thought, less the words of the thought but more, to your point, what is the emotion? Anxiety, okay, I’m feeling anxiety. Why am I feeling anxiety? I think the other thing is the specific … What helped me a little bit is the specific thought. You’re never going to sleep again. Your life is ruined, those really extreme sort of worst case scenarios, spiraling thoughts. I would also just think back to how many times I’ve had those thoughts, and they’ve not been true and that they’ve been wrong. Because my mind will spiral about things besides just sleep, and I think it really helped for me to also realize this is an unreliable narrator.

This is not a reliable sort … This is fake news. It actually is like literal fake news. And so to really just think about how many times I’ve had these thoughts, and they’ve been wrong, and the emotional truth is real. And that’s worth exploring, but that the actual iteration of this thought that is so extreme, so intense, this is fake news type headline grabbing sort of extreme, not accurate information. And that also really helped me personally.

Martin Reed:
I love that idea of it, of the mind being an unreliable narrator. I think that’s great. When you said that, my mind kind of went to maybe watching a talk show. If we just imagine all of our thoughts as being a talk show presenter, so they might say stuff that’s really helpful, really interesting, stuff we agree with. But at the same time, they’re just as likely to say stuff that’s not really helpful, might be completely inaccurate and might be stuff that we don’t agree with.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, and it’s so funny, because it seems negative. But it adds such a relief to me, because I have that about other things too. I’ll have the freakout and just the realization that this is an unreliable narrator. It’s just such a relief. I’m like okay, great. I don’t have to believe everything my mind is telling me. That’s awesome.

Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think it can just serve as another reminder that even when the mind is generating all this different stuff, ultimately we still get to choose how to respond to it, which is really what it comes down to. And anything that we find a useful way of helping separating us from the mind, separating our actions from our thoughts can be really useful. So I’m sure there’s going to be someone listening here that that’s really going to resonate with them. Just next time I hear all those thoughts come up, I’m just going to imagine that it’s someone narrating something, or it’s a news presenter or something. And some of it might be interesting, useful and helpful. Some of it might not be. I’m going to listen. I’m going to acknowledge. I’m going to listen. Then I’m going to decide how to respond. I’m going to decide what to do with that information.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, I love that.

Martin Reed:
Moving forward a little bit, when we were working together, and you felt like you were starting to feel better with everything that was going on, you felt like you were on the right track in terms of creating better conditions for sleep, responding in a more workable way to the difficult nights and the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with those difficult nights. Then your thoughts started to be maybe it’s time for me to leave my parents, return back to the co-op again. And of course then the mind starts to worry. Well now are we going to be back to square one if we do that? Is sleep going to become a problem again? Even though that process of moving back is probably something that was important to you and more aligned with the life you wanted to live, your mind was going to be generating all this concern about sleep.

How did you end up dealing with that situation, that kind of apparent conflict between … I want to do this with my life, but my mind is generating all this concern that if I do do that which is important to me, I’m going to be back to square one, or I’m going to really struggle with sleep again.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, so that was kind of a plot twist, actually. And that’s another reason why it’s like these things always feel easier to feel grateful for in hindsight.

Martin Reed:
Absolutely.

Jessy Baer:
I was not grateful for my insomnia during it. I thought it was ruining my life, and it was just awful. And I couldn’t, not even an ounce of gratitude. But in retrospect, this is a big pivot for me in a moment where it wouldn’t have happened without the insomnia and moving home. Because actually as I was home, I actually did realize that I didn’t, after a long period of feeling stressed of moving back to the community, I actually realized that I didn’t want to go back. And what I wanted to do was actually buy a condo. And I was feeling strong enough. I was feeling like I was sleeping well. I was feeling strong enough.

And I also, I think, had the nourishment of being with my parents for a big life decision like that. And so I actually ended up not going back to the community and actually buying a condo. And now I live alone, and I actually love it. And it’s been a huge life change for me and catapulted me into this really next phase of my life. And honestly I don’t think if it weren’t for the insomnia, moving home, having this long space to, one, heal and reflect. And I think actually the insomnia, getting through that gave me confidence that I could do hard things. And I don’t know. I think it built my resilience and helped pave the way for me to make this decision of buying the condo.

I think that the insomnia actually really helped build my confidence in making this next big step in my life.

Martin Reed:
Did you have any concern when you were exploring that idea of buying a place, living alone? Were there any kind of thoughts or concerns coming up from your mind about, well, what’s this going to mean? What if your sleep problems do come back? What are you going to do then? Maybe we should hold off. Was there any of that kind of stuff going on, or did you just feel like, you know what? I’m just going to do this and not give sleep … Sleep didn’t really come up as a second thought for you.

Jessy Baer:
No, it definitely came up. No, I was quite afraid. And I think I was especially afraid to return back to the community, which is why I got … I was at my parents maybe seven months. And by the end, I was really ready to leave. It needed to end, because I love them, but it was too much. I needed to be with young people, living my independent life. But I think I was, because I was deeply afraid of it coming back, that kind of kept me there a few months more than probably otherwise. And I’m trying to just reflect back on how I dealt with that.

I don’t know, I think it was just kind of through the same things I’ve been saying, just listening to your podcast a million times, just doing your program. I think I also did, actually … I’m just remembering. I think I did some special calls with you, where it felt good. It felt good to know you were there, to be honest. I remember, since that was something I thought about too, is I remember I messaged you. And I was like, “I just want to make sure that I can set up a coaching call with you, if I need. Even though this program is over, if I have a relapse, you’re there, and I can set up a call.”

And you were like, “Yes.” And I think just knowing that your program was here and you were here was really grounding. I actually remember thinking that during these moves. I need to build up my toolkit. I need to have these fallback plans. I need to make sure resources are here. I need to make sure I can do a 30-minute call with Martin, if I’m having a regression, and i’m freaking out. Yeah, I think knowing I could set up a coaching call with you at any time or not any time, but that was an available resource I could pull on if needed, was really helpful in the transition.

Martin Reed:
I know that when we were originally working together, you were still taking the medication. You weren’t quite ready to move away from it yet, but at the same time, it was one of your goals to move away from that. Now I’m curious to hear where you are in that process now. Is this something that you’ve completely moved away from? Is it something that you kind of have as a backup plan? And what was that process like for you of moving away from medication as an option to responding to difficult nights or to somehow try and generate sleep?

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, that’s a great question. So the medication, so the whole time I was on it, I was so fragile, and I just was so scared of just doing anything that might tip the boat. And the medication, it was Trazodone, it wasn’t Ambien or anything. So it was kind of more of an anti-anxiety medication. So I wasn’t experiencing any really negative side effects. So it wasn’t interfering with my life in any big way except for the fact that I don’t want to be on an anti-anxiety medication if I don’t have to be. I don’t want to just be on this for life. That’s an easy thing to just stay on for life all of a sudden. And it’s like, do I need to be on this?

But anyway, because of the fear of just … It was really traumatic with the insomnia, and I just really wanted to be safe. And with the move to my new place and everything, I ended up staying on the Trazodone. Gosh, I think I … over a year. I was just not ready. I was not ready to stop it. And it actually took a pretty big sleep event to get me to get off of it, which is I was doing, as I mentioned, I started this master’s program in London. And there was a period of it where we were supposed to go there for two weeks of classes, but because of COVID, we couldn’t. So I was on this insane schedule of starting class at 3:00 in the morning and finishing class at like-

Martin Reed:
Wow.

Jessy Baer:
It was awful. I do not recommend it. It is not a good way to learn. But I was on the schedule of having to start in a statistics class, not even fun class. Trying to learn statistics-

Martin Reed:
Wow.

Jessy Baer:
… is the worst. But yeah, so 3:00 AM start. I had to completely change my sleep schedule for two weeks and go to bed at 5:00, wake up at 2:00. It was just wild, but I did it. And I remember after that I was just like I do not need medication. I really feel comfortable that I am at a place of maturity with the sleep. And it’s all me and I feel confident enough to stop this. And I just stopped at cold turkey, and I don’t know if that’s the right way to do it. My doctor is like oftentimes it’s better to taper off. But for me, I was just like, I just want to be done with it. And it was an anti-anxiety medication, so I remember I felt a bit of low feelings, kind of not feeling happy, a little bit of the just comedown of it for a couple days. And I think there were, after that, off nights.

And I remember thinking, is it the medication? Is it not? But it’s like no, it was just life. Off nights are normal, and I think I’m so happy that I’ve been off it. I’ve been off it since December. And yeah, I just feel like it would’ve been so easy to just stay on it and have it be something I was on for five years. Because again, it wasn’t really strongly having any super negative side effect. So yeah, but it took a moment of in incredible sleep empowerment to stop it, because it was scary. It was a very scary thing to do.

Martin Reed:
And I think it’s something we only get from experience, from experiencing that for ourselves, experiencing successfully doing something that’s challenging but important and that’s meaningful but difficult.

It can really just be so empowering and help us again recognize that we can still do things that are important, even when we might be struggling with sleep, or we might be struggling with difficult thoughts, or we might be feeling tired and fatigued or feeling like we can’t concentrate. It’s actually quite remarkable, what we can actually achieve. And when we experience that, maybe we realize that we maybe don’t have to put so much pressure on ourselves to get a certain amount or type of sleep or to be feeling or thinking in a certain way in order for that to happen.

Jessy Baer:
Totally. And as you’re talking, I just remembered one other thing about getting off the medication is I feel proud of myself for getting through insomnia. I feel like empowered by it, except I do feel like when I was on the medication the whole time, it’s like you did all this stuff, but then there’s the medication. And I feel like I couldn’t give myself full credit for all I had done and feel truly empowered in it. Because I was still on this medication, even though I knew the medication wasn’t doing anything. I really could tell it wasn’t doing anything. But still it was robbing me of being able to take full credit for everything I had done. So yeah, that was also just another benefit, just being able to really, fully say I have done this and without medication, or without this kind of lingering thought of, well, I guess I had this other thing too.

Martin Reed:
We can still practice this new approach, even when we’re taking medication. So that’s one thing, when I’m working with clients, if they’re taking medication, it really doesn’t … I don’t encourage clients one way or another, because to me it doesn’t really matter quite so much. What really matters is, we’re just practicing a new, more workable approach to insomnia. We’re changing our behaviors, practicing new habits, and we can do all that practice, whether we’re taking medication or not. And then once we feel ready, maybe we’ll have that big, insightful moment like you described. Or maybe we just get to that point where we feel ready to make changes. Then we can talk to our doctors and come up with a plan about that. But really the medication isn’t really, doesn’t have to be a hindrance to making changes. What’s important is just practicing making changes, if our current approach isn’t working or isn’t proving to be helpful.

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, I totally agree. And as I mentioned, I was on the medication over a year, and I needed to do that. I was not ready to come off of it. It was like the thought of it was … I really needed to wait and listen to myself until the thought of going off it wasn’t highly stressful. And at that moment, I was able to. But it was a long, long period, where the thought of going off it was highly stressful. And I think that bringing your “and” again it’s like I was on the medication, and I was doing all this stuff and sleeping really well. That doesn’t have to be something that is an either or with the medication. And I actually remember sometimes I would … Yeah, I was very pro … I felt very good about being on the medication during everything. I didn’t think it was a bad thing.

So I guess maybe my ending mark, my ending comment might have made it seem like I thought the medication wasn’t good and was holding me back from full empowerment. But no, I’m such a proponent of just being gentle and kind and bringing in the medication, if necessary. Because it was, for me, quite necessary. And again, I took a long time to get off of it, and I felt okay about that. I felt that was good, that I did that.

Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve talked about that change in the relationship we have with sleep itself, nighttime wakefulness, all the thoughts and the feelings that come with it, practicing separating our thoughts and our feelings from our actions a little bit, maybe gaining some independence from them. Was there anything else that you can think of, maybe from a behavioral standpoint, any new habits you developed or changes that you’ve made, that we haven’t spoken about ,that you feel were really helpful?

Jessy Baer:
One is, three things I’m grateful for from the day or three highlights from the day. And I don’t even articulate it very nicely, but I just jot it down. And then I feel like I fall asleep thinking of positive things from the day and feeling more grateful. And I think that helps for me, having that practice every day. It’s really nice reflection at the end of the day before bed.

Martin Reed:
So what’s an average night like for you these days, Jessy?

Jessy Baer:
Yeah, an average night for me these days is I eat dinner pretty late, so I’ll probably finish dinner around 9:30, 10:00. And then I’ll go into my room, and from probably maybe 10:30 to 11:30 is wind down time. So I’ll do the same things that you recommended. I still need wind down time, even not having insomnia. I find that period really important, especially if I’ve been out in the evening or done anything. I’ll read a book, mostly.

And normally it’ll take … I don’t know, I’ll fall asleep, and then I still wake up in the middle of the night. I’ll wake up a couple times but just like normal, go to the bathroom, fall back asleep. I’ll probably fall asleep by 12:00 and normally I’ll just sleep eight hours, and it’s just normal cycle of sleep, typically.

Martin Reed:
How about your days? Any changes there since you’ve got to this point where insomnia is kind of more behind you in the rearview mirror rather than right in front of your face, blocking your view of the entire world around you?

Jessy Baer:
Overall, I think the biggest thing that’s impacted me, which we’ve already discussed, is that if I’m not feeling well, regardless of whether it’s sleep, maybe it’s just other things that have been upsetting, or I’m just feeling depressed or anxious or whatever. I still do the things that I had scheduled, or I still plan to do things. And for me that really … And I think this is good for me. I think this is a good way to work through these, this negative, not feeling well state. And that, I think, has really helped for me personally in my life. And again being kind, not doing anything aggressive and just forcing myself to do hard things when I’m not ready. But I think overall, just the mentality of, if you’re feeling low, whether it’s sleep or otherwise, getting out and doing stuff tends to help. That’s actually a good thing. That’s definitely helped improve my life, I think.

Martin Reed:
Great. Well Jessy, I’m really grateful for all the time that you shared to come on and share your story. Like we were talking about earlier, they’re so helpful for everyone listening. And I just know that everyone listening to this is going to be taking something away from our conversation. So I’m really grateful for you coming on and sharing your experience. But I do have one last question for you, which I would be really grateful for you to answer, if you’ve got a few more minutes to spare. And it’s this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening, and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re just beyond help, they feel like they can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them?

Jessy Baer:
First, I would just say, you are not alone. You are not alone. There’s so many people in the exact same situation who feel the exact same way. And it’s a really normal situation that a lot of people are grappling with. And two, just as much as you can, trust in the process and just the ups and downs, the twists and turns, the unexpected moments. Just trust in the process, and you will move through this insomnia episode. And you will, I think, do really well and just trust.

Martin Reed:
All right, well I think that’s a great note to end on. So thanks again, Jessy, for taking the time out for your day to come on and share your stories. Really appreciate it, thank you.

Jessy Baer:
I’ve so appreciated hearing all the stories on your podcast. As I’ve mentioned, they’ve been life changing for me. So I’m so grateful I could come on and share mine.

Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life you want to live, I would love to help. You can get started right now by enrolling in my online course or you can book my phone coaching package. My online course runs for six weeks. It will help you make changes that can create better conditions for sleep, it will help you identify and get rid of any behaviors that might be making sleep more difficult, and it will help you respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it in a more workable way. You can work through the course in two ways. You can choose the self-coaching option and work through it by yourself with the support of an online forum that is available only to clients.

Martin Reed:
Or, you can choose to add one-on-one email coaching and work through the course with me by your side. With the one-on-one coaching option, you get unlimited email access to me for eight weeks, starting from the day you enroll. Any time you have a question or concern, any time you are unsure about anything, any time you want to focus on the challenges you face or any difficulties that show up, you can email me and I will be there to coach and support you. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com.

Martin Reed:
With the phone coaching package, we start with a one-hour call (voice only or video — your choice) and come up with an initial two-week plan that will help you create better conditions for sleep and practice moving away from struggling with insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. You get unlimited email access to me for two weeks after the call and a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.

Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.