Insomnia Coach® Podcast

Danny shares his journey from insomnia triggered by stress and rigid sleep rituals to discovering the power of acceptance. He abandoned strict diet and exercise rules, realizing they contributed to sleep anxiety. Embracing small, meaningful daily actions helped him regain control over his life despite challenging nights. The shift from optimizing sleep to accepting wakefulness transformed his relationship with sleep. He encourages others that recovery is possible through gradual change and kindness towards oneself.

When Esther tried moving away from a medication she was taking for generalized anxiety disorder, she found herself struggling with sleep. She would often wake with a jolt and experience panic and anxiety. Even when new medications helped with other issues, sleep continued to be a challenge and created a lot of ongoing anxiety. Esther did a lot to try to get her sleep back on track. She tried going to bed earlier. She tried CBD oil. She tried supplements. She tried to tire herself out through exercise. None of those things got her closer to where she wanted to be. Esther was determined to get to the root of the problem, which seemed to be all the difficult thoughts and feelings associated with insomnia. On her way to work one day, Esther came across the Insomnia Coach podcast and listening to the stories of people who had overcome their struggle with insomnia motivated her to start working with me. In this episode, Esther reflects on the changes she made that proved to be most helpful for her. They included going to bed later at night, doing something more pleasant whenever she found herself struggling during the night, continuing to do things that mattered to her even after difficult nights, and acknowledging her thoughts and feelings and refocusing on the present moment (rather than focusing on trying to fight or avoid difficult thoughts and feelings). Esther also shares some of the key educational insights that helped her reduce the amount of pressure she was putting on herself to make sleep happen. Her superpowers of self-awareness and self-reflection also revealed that the difficult thoughts and feelings she had been trying so hard to fight or avoid often came with the same physical sensations associated with more pleasant thoughts, feelings, and experiences. As she committed to a new approach, Esther realized she had new options available to her when it came to responding to insomnia. Options that wouldn’t create more struggle, consume more energy, put more focus on sleep, and keep her trapped in the vicious cycle of more trying and more difficulty. Esther became less fearful about the possibility of insomnia showing up. She became more comfortable in its presence. Insomnia lost the power and influence it once had over her. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay. So Esther, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Esther: Sure, thank you so much for having me. Martin: It’s great to have you on. Let’s start, as always, right at the very beginning. Can you tell us a little bit about when your sleep problems first began, and what you think may have caused those initial issues with sleep. Esther: Okay, so the main trigger for my insomnia is anxiety, as is often the case. I have a generalized anxiety disorder, and that’s something where I’m not anxious about anything in particular, it’s just, more like an overreaction to The things that bother me and the things that would trigger anxiety. Esther: So for example, if I’m worried about my performance at a job, I would obsess about it endlessly. I would constantly be thinking about it and I would have the physical symptoms as well. So like the upset stomach and the trouble sleeping and all kinds of unpleasant symptoms. I would have tremors sometimes. Esther: So what happened was I’ve been on SSRIs for a long time, for pretty much half my life, in order to manage those symptoms. And there have been a few times in my life when I’ve tried to give them up. I’ve tried to see if I can cut back and if I can, function without them. And what ended up happening was I would be fine for a while, and then I would have the worst physical symptoms. Physical and mental because I like the medication it also helps control obsessive thoughts so I would have the obsessive thoughts in addition to the really unpleasant physical symptoms of anxiety and the worst one of all was the insomnia because I wasn’t able to take a break from the way, I was feeling like I was I would fall asleep because I was exhausted and then I would wake up and Shortly after and I would wake up in a panic not the way you normally wake up in the morning But be like this sudden jolt of awakening and then it would be this panic like oh my god What do I do now? Esther: I’m awake. Like I feel terrible like all the worries keep flooding back. Then I had to get back on the medication and the latest time I’ve had, like my last attempt to get off the medication I’ve had, it’s been coming back. I’d be fine for a couple of weeks and then I would relapse again and the sleep problems would show up again and they would cause me a lot of distress. Esther: And so I, and I was able to go on another medication, an additional medication to help with that. So it stabilized over time, but I would still experience this acute insomnia from time to time. And that would give me a lot of anxiety. So I would stop worrying about what I was currently worried about. Esther: And the insomnia became the primary focus. Martin: Sleep wasn’t too much of an issue for you up until this moment when you decided there’s this medication that I want to move away from. And then as you started to try and move away from the medication, then sleep started to become more of an issue. Esther: Yes, that’s right. Martin: Was there such a thing as an average kind of night that you could describe to us? Esther: There wasn’t really an average kind of night it was it depended on the night So there were some times when I was really tired And I would go to sleep or like I wasn’t even really sleepy But I would think like I haven’t been sleeping so let me go to bed at 10 And let me see if I can catch up on some sleep And then like sometimes I would have trouble falling asleep and it would take me a while and then I would panic And then sometimes I fall asleep fine, and then I wake up Three hours or four hours later, and I would feel really anxious. Esther: And usually what ended up happening was I would I would take like one of my as needed medications because being awake at that time just felt so terrible that I couldn’t bear it. I was like, I wanted to just take something that’ll knock me out. And so that’ll be able to sleep until the morning. Martin: You had this goal in mind, which was to move away from medication. But every time you tried to do that, it was like sleep or sleep was working against you. You’d experience really difficult nights and then that will pull you back onto the medication. Esther: It wasn’t just the sleep, it was also the the anxiety and the other unpleasant physical symptoms during the day ultimately I accepted that this because I have this anxiety disorder, this is just something that I’m gonna have to live with. So I gave up on the idea of getting off the meds. Esther: I said, just like people with diabetes or with asthma or other chronic conditions need medication, I need this. This is talking about the ones I take every day. But then the as needed meds, those are the ones that I wanted to, try to move away from both, both the meds and also the the fear that I had, the phobia. Esther: I wanted to get rid of the phobia because I knew that no matter how I was feeling, no matter whether I had this anxiety disorder or I didn’t, I would still have difficult nights from time to time, like everybody else does. That’s ultimately what I wanted to deal with. Martin: What kind of things had you tried up to this point to try and improve the situation to improve your sleep, maybe to deal with the anxiety or any other difficult thoughts and feelings that were showing up? What things did you try before we started to work together? Esther: Besides the as needed medications, I had, I read online about different things that you can do, so I’ve tried drinking chamomile tea to help with, to help calm me down. I tried CBD oil, which, that’s very hit or miss because that’s the kind of thing that, You can buy over the counter, but it’s not regulated by the FDA, so you don’t know what dosage you need and how it interacts with other medications, so it’s guesswork. But, I tried that, I tried GABA supplements, which is another supplements for a neurotransmitter called GABA in the brain. So yeah, I’ve been reading a lot about all kinds of ways that I can help myself and then one time I was, when I was still living with my parents during one of these bouts, they told me walk for a long time, just like I, I worked like a couple of miles away from where they lived. Esther: So they said, walk home from work so that you’ll tire yourself out physically and then you’ll sleep better. So I tried that and. It worked for one night, but I wasn’t sure if that was just if that was just a coincidence, if that was just like me starting to feel better because I was back on the meds or if I was If like that truly did help relax me. Esther: It might have been a little bit of both. And then what else? I also I tried going to bed early, which I knew from the insomnia course, was a really bad idea. Because when I couldn’t sleep, then I would panic. And of course, that would make falling asleep more difficult. And then also I was in therapy, so I tried discussing it with therapists, but they never really gave me any concrete strategies for how to deal with it. Like I remember I once spoke to the psych nurse practitioner and I asked her like, is there a way that I can get rid of this phobia? And she said, maybe you never will. Maybe it’s just going to be something you live with, like how some people are afraid of flying, for example. So I was like, okay, great. Esther: Now what do I do? So yeah, it was really frustrating to try all these things and not have any permanent long term solutions. Martin: Yeah, it can be so frustrating, right? And I think another way that all those attempts to fix the problem when they prove to be ineffective, another kind of side effect that can have is we can then get really worried that there’s something kind of unique or unusual that’s wrong with us because all this, all these things we’re trying aren’t proving to be effective. Often the more effort we put into trying to push certain thoughts and feelings away, or the more effort we put into trying to generate sleep, the more we end up struggling. And that’s how it’s so easy for us to end up just getting stuck, right? We just feel like we’re completely out of ideas and that maybe we’re somehow broken or our sleep system is broken. Martin: But the truth is we’re never broken. I’m yet to meet someone whose sleep is broken. It’s just that we can so easily get stuck. So I, it’s, that’s why I like to hear from people to describe all the things they tried, because I think it’s something that everyone can identify with. Martin: So around about this time you found Insomnia Coach, what was it that made you think, Okay, I think this is a direction or an approach I want to try, because you’ve already tried so much stuff, right? Esther: What happened was I was in the middle of one of these bouts of insomnia and then, like usually I would drive to work and I would listen to a podcast. So I would, I was thinking like, let’s see if I can find something on insomnia that can help me. Esther: So that led me to your podcast. And then I started listening to the episodes of the, where everybody was describing their struggles and how, how hard it was for them to overcome it. And then in time, like once they enrolled in your course, even the most stubborn cases of insomnia, even like the people who slept for two hours a night, like there was even hope for them, people who have suffered for like years or decades and, they were still able to overcome it. Esther: So I was thinking. Like maybe I should try it too. Maybe at least it’ll get rid of the phobia. Like the trauma that I’ve had from, trying to get off the meds and having this really bad anxiety and insomnia. I thought that was my primary focus. I wanted, I thought this current bout of insomnia, it’ll normalize itself in time. Esther: But what I really want is to to fix the root of it. I really wanna work on on my thoughts about insomnia in general. Because I knew that at some point it was still gonna show up. Martin: When we started to work together, what kind of changes did you make? Like how did your approach to insomnia or the anxiety that would show up when you’re awake at night, how did your approach start to change? What kind of ideas or insights did you pick up that now you’re able to look back on and think, yeah, I found them really helpful? Esther: In like almost every article on insomnia, it says if you’re lying in bed for 15 minutes and Lying in bed. If you’re feeling frustrated get up and do something and then go back to bed If you’re sleepy, but I was always That was like the thing. Esther: I always fought the hardest against I always felt like Okay, if I get out of bed, then i’m gonna get even less sleep. So Like I don’t want to have to Be more awake. I felt that if I lay in bed, at least there’s a chance that i’ll fall asleep again But if I get up then I have to really face the fact that i’m awake You know, and I really, I was really resistant to that part for a long time. But I was willing to give it a try. So one time I just, I tried it and I was thinking, it’s really not that bad to, I’d rather be awake downstairs watching TV than be lying in bed and tossing and turning and like thinking about how horrible this is. At least I have something to distract me from my thoughts. I tried watching TV or I tried I don’t know, going on the computer even though they say that you shouldn’t. You should avoid blue light, but I was like, whatever, let me just it’s still better than tossing and turning. Martin: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the kind of key phrase that you mentioned there in terms of the option of getting out of bed is, If being awake just doesn’t feel good, if you find yourself getting pulled into that struggle, with sleep, you’re like tossing and turning, trying to make sleep happen, going to war with wakefulness and your mind, then there’s always the option to get out of bed or to do anything else. Martin: Even if you’d rather not get out of bed, maybe just do something else in bed, because the goal isn’t to make sleep happen at this point. It’s just to respond to wakefulness with a little bit less of a struggle, right? So we don’t have to jump out of bed or respond in any way just because we’re awake, but if we start to get pulled into a struggle, if it starts to feel really difficult, we’ve always got the option of doing something else. Martin: So it sounds as though maybe that was introduced maybe a little bit of flexibility or felt a little bit kinder compared to what you might have read before that was like, Oh, if you’ve been awake for 15 minutes or 20 minutes, you must get out of bed for 15 or 20 minutes and you cannot watch TV. You can only do these things and then you must return to bed. A lot more rigid. Esther: Yeah, definitely. And to this day, I still use that approach. I still, every time I can’t sleep, I use that as a barometer. I ask myself does lying in bed feel good right now? Am I relaxed? And if even if I’m not too sleepy, but I’m relaxed, then I’m like, okay, this feels good. Let me. Esther: Let me lie down here. And I don’t even always get out of bed. Sometimes I stay in bed and I usually listen to a podcast or an audio book or something. And that kind of helps distract me because I’m not really monitoring for sleep at that time. I’m just focusing on whatever I’m listening to. And then in time I sometimes feel myself getting sleepy and I’m like, okay, it’s time to turn this off and go to sleep. Martin: And so how was that different to your approach before we worked together? Esther: But before that I would start to freak out. And I would think, oh my god, here we go again this is terrible tomorrow’s gonna feel, I’m gonna feel like crap all day, and I’m gonna be really sleepy, and I’m not gonna enjoy anything I was setting myself up that tomorrow’s gonna be really difficult, in addition to, to the night being difficult. Esther: I had this vision of the next day. Me feeling really horrible and not being engaged with anything not wanting to do anything So and I would and then when I start to panic I would start to engage in what you call mental gymnastics With okay, should I take this medication or should I try to tough it out? Esther: If I take the medication it might help me get to sleep, but then maybe tomorrow night I’m not gonna be as sleepy. So like I was thinking, Oh, and I have four hours left before I need to wake up. So should I get a few more hours of sleep or should I just like tough it out and lie here and see if I can relax. Esther: But I also don’t want to take the medication because I don’t want to potentially get addicted to it . So there was like also that, that other thought in my mind. So it was constantly should I or shouldn’t I? And that was also, making me more alert. Martin: Yeah, so when your mind was generating all these different thoughts and stories and scenarios and time traveling to the future and the past, just doing all those things that human minds like to do, how did you used to respond to that? Esther: I would respond with more panic, and then like, when it came with physical symptoms, then that would also lead to panic. Then it would be like, oh great, now I’m really not gonna sleep if I’m shaking or if my stomach’s upset. So that would feed into it, and it would be like this endless loop of panic and anxiety. Martin: When you had this new approach or this new option available to you, which was to just do something more appealing when this wakefulness started to feel really difficult, how do you feel that helped? Esther: You control your behavior more than the thoughts. You acknowledge the way you feel, You say oh, my heart is pounding, or I’m feeling sweaty, or like I’m I’m trembling, like you acknowledge your symptoms, whether they’re physical or whether you’re thinking, I’m worried about how I’m going to sleep . So then you you make some sort of movement, kinda like stretches or whatever, like kinda to remind yourself that your body, like, to put yourself back into the present. And then you don’t force yourself to stop thinking about whatever it is that bothers you or about how you’re feeling, you just draw your attention back to the present. Which is something that none of the therapists or psychiatrists I’ve ever worked with, nobody ever discussed that with me. Esther: Nobody ever taught me this concrete approach to managing anxiety. They would talk about progressive muscle relaxation. They would say oh, try meditating. And meditating, that’s one of those things that never really worked for me because I just, when I’m told to clear my mind and imagine this or imagine that, then, I couldn’t really do that. Esther: It felt like I was forcing myself to think about something, and thoughts are something that’s very difficult to control. Martin: It’s about shifting away from trying to control what’s going on under our skin, so anything that’s generated inside of us, like sleep, thoughts, feelings, moving away from trying to control them and instead moving the focus of our control onto our actions, which is something that we always have control over. Martin: Even when really difficult thoughts and feelings are present, we can still move our arm or blink our eyes or move our mouths, for example. And where I think that acknowledgement is so helpful is the mind immediately knows that we’re listening to it. As soon as we acknowledge Whatever it’s doing, whether it’s time traveling into the future and coming up with stories, telling us we’ve only got a certain amount of time left to fall asleep, whatever it’s telling us, By acknowledging it, it knows that we’re listening. Martin: And straight away, the mind can figure out, can, knows that maybe it doesn’t have to keep yelling this at us over and over again because we are listening. Whereas when our natural impulse, which I think most of us, if not all of us, are hardwired to respond to this difficult stuff by trying to push it away, or ignore it, Then the mind just wants to yell at us louder and it will say it over and over again because it doesn’t think we’re listening. Martin: So when our first step as a response is to acknowledge, It can just be so helpful, just as you described. Esther: Yeah, definitely. Because when you’re fighting against it, then it just makes it worse, and like you said, it perpetuates this endless cycle. Martin: Yeah. Exactly. And it can sound really ironic, but insomnia comes from the mind doing its job of trying to look out for us, trying to protect us. Esther: Yeah. Martin: But it can end up trying so hard to look out for us and protect us that it gets in the way a little bit. When it comes to insomnia, the brain can learn that being awake, that wakefulness itself is a threat. Martin: Just like the kitchen is on fire. The brain doesn’t really recognize the difference. And like you talked about, unfortunately there’s no magic way we can make the brain stop doing that. But we can change the way we respond to it when this wakefulness shows up or when the anxiety shows up. And I think the more we can practice experiencing it all with less of a struggle, not only does that consume less of our energy and our attention, but also it can help train the brain that, oh, maybe this wakefulness, maybe insomnia, isn’t such a threat. Martin: Because now there’s less resistance, there’s less struggle related to it. So if there’s less struggle related to it, maybe I don’t have to be quite so alert. to try and protect you from the wakefulness, from the insomnia. Esther: Yeah, exactly. That’s the way you break the cycle. You if you’re not scared, then your level of arousal goes down, and then, like you said, the body says Okay, so there’s no need to generate all these all these physical symptoms, all these symptoms of arousal, so let’s just let her go to sleep, and then the sleep drive kicks in. Martin: Yeah, and the sleep drive always kicks in at some point. It might not be that exact night, but the longer we go without sleep, the more likely sleep is to happen. So the brain can temporarily suspend sleep if it thinks like we’re in danger or if there’s a risk, whether that’s real or imagined. But sooner or later, sleep is always going to happen in the end. Martin: And this is why sometimes we can go through these kind of cycles, where we have a series of nights of very little or no sleep, and then all of a sudden it feels like we get this great night of catch up sleep, everything felt great, we feel like maybe the insomnia is now behind us, and then it all starts over again. Martin: So we have this stretch of really difficult nights, the sleep drive gets really high, We sleep because we cannot stay awake indefinitely. And then when that sleep drive is back down, then that arousal system can take over again, and it starts to suspend sleep because the brain is trying to look out for us and trying to protect us. Martin: And I think it’s helpful to just describe that because so many people, again, feel That those cycles are unusual or unique, but really it’s just all part of the insomnia struggle. And a lot of people deal with that too. Esther: Yeah, and also, the fact that you’re worried about what impact the insomnia is gonna have on your mental health. So you’re also like you’re thinking for somebody who already has mental health problems, who has anxiety, you’re thinking like, how is if I don’t sleep, then my anxiety is going to get worse. Esther: And I’ve had these thoughts about how what’s gonna happen, how I’m gonna I’m not gonna be concentrating well, I’m gonna be do worse at my job, I’m gonna get fired I’m gonna get depressed and end up in a mental institution. Esther: Because I’m nuts, all because I can’t sleep. And then so one thing I wanted to mention is what was really helpful to me was the episode with Dr. Jade Wu, where she talked about insomnia, misconceptions, and myths. And the main thing she said was that there’s no there’s no danger from insomnia. So other than you feeling crappy the next day, there’s nothing that’s that’s basically the worst that can happen that you don’t feel good, like your head is cloudy and you don’t feel like you’re at your best the next day. Esther: But all those effects about sleep deprivation that you read about, those are from like some external factor. Either when you force yourself to stay up or when there’s something in your life that impedes your ability to sleep. And she, she said also that that you don’t need to catch up on the amount of hours of sleep. And that’s something that I’ve also, that I also used to think in the past. Like I would think, oh, I only got five hours of sleep last night and I need eight. The next night I’m gonna need 8 plus those 3 hours, so I’m gonna need 11 hours in order to catch up. And she said, no, it doesn’t work that way. Esther: The way your body works is that after a bad night of sleep, the next night you, your body puts you in the deep stages sooner. So you’re still, it generates the most restorative sleep, it prioritizes that, and that’s what that’s what helps you feel better even if you don’t sleep the 11 hours or even the 8 hours the following night. Martin: I love that episode. I’ll make sure that I put a link to it in the show notes. Otherwise anyone can just go to. the Insomnia Coach website or your podcast provider and just search through the list of titles for Jade Wu’s name. It’s a great episode because I think that there is, there’s a lot of confusion around sleep and insomnia, right? Martin: And I think knowledge can just be so empowering and so helpful. Because when we have these ideas that if I don’t get a certain amount of sleep, insert scary health condition here is going to happen. That’s really concerning and it’s something that can draw us into the struggle, right? Because none of us want to end up with one of those scary health conditions, so we’re going to end up trying to try and even harder to make sleep happen or to get rid of wakefulness when it shows up. Martin: And that just ends up pulling us deeper into the struggle. And this idea that we don’t need to catch up on sleep. Sleep is something the body wants to take care of all by itself. It’s when we completely understandably get involved in the process that things can become more difficult. So if something like you were talking about, we start running all these calculations how much sleep I have to try and catch up on This is all stuff that just we end up putting more pressure on ourselves to try and make sleep happen, which in itself makes things more difficult. Martin: The brain ends up getting confused because it wants to take care of sleep by itself, but then we’re putting all this effort into trying to figure it out, trying to make it happen, which also can train the brain that insomnia must really be a threat. It’s like a grizzly bear hiding under the bed, or it’s like the kitchen being on fire, so it’s going to fire up even more. Martin: Something you touched upon right near the start of our discussion was when you were, trying to fix the issue of sleep was you started to go to bed earlier in an attempt to make more sleep happen. Did you change that approach in the end? Did you start going to bed later in the evening as you were trying to change your approach to insomnia? Esther: Yes. So that was something that has definitely been helpful because like that kind of takes off the pressure so that you don’t think it’s going to be 10 o’clock soon. I should be in bed because I didn’t sleep well last night. So what I did was I had the sleep window from 11 to six. And usually by 11 I would feel pretty sleepy. But if I didn’t, then I would say to myself, Okay, I’m gonna stay up later until I’m actually sleepy. And that’s what I do to this day. I don’t go to sleep until I, unless I really feel sleepy. And sometimes I end up looking at the clock. Sometimes I think, Oh, it’s 11. 30, I should go to bed. And then I if I’m, if I go to bed, it turns out I’m not sleepy enough yet I go back downstairs and I watch TV or something where I stay in bed and listen to a podcast. So like that, when you’re not, when you’re not forcing yourself to go to sleep early. To make up for those hours. Esther: You’re just taking away some of the pressure. Martin: You’re no longer like a slave to the clock. You don’t see, okay, it’s 10 o’clock, this is the time I have to be in bed, or this is the time I have to be asleep. So just maybe using your own level of sleepiness, like when you get to that point where it’s starting to feel hard to remain awake, that might be a better cue that can take some pressure off. Esther: It brought me relief because I I felt if I The later I go to sleep The fewer hours I would have to potentially be awake during the night That’s less time for me to lie in bed and obsess over being able to sleep Martin: if people are listening to this and they’re identifying that concern, the later I leave it, then that’s the less time available for sleep, is maybe we can just fall back and reflect on your own experience here. Martin: What does your experience tell you in terms of if you are going to bed earlier in the night, does your experience tell you that tends to create better sleep? Do you fall asleep pretty quickly, spend very little time awake during the night, tend to get a good night of sleep? If yes, then sure, go to bed at that time, go to bed earlier. Martin: But if your experience is telling you that no, in my experience, when I go to bed earlier, it just creates more wakefulness. I find it harder to fall asleep. I find it harder to fall back to sleep when I wake during the night. Then maybe it’s worth experimenting with going to bed later, even if it might come with some new set of thoughts and feelings related to, oh, it’s getting later, I’m going to have to be up sooner, I’ve only got this small window, now I’ve got a smaller opportunity to sleep. Martin: Sometimes it’s worth allowing those thoughts and feelings to come in order to experiment with a different approach. Esther: A couple of things that i’ve picked up ever since I started the course Was that when I was struggling to sleep so one of the first nights I had a night when I barely slept and then the next day I went to work and I was surprised by how good I felt. I was surprised that I was I was able to function. I drove just fine. Esther: I, then I came home, I ate dinner, I read a book, I watched TV. So I did like my. normal routine and I was thinking, Oh, hey, this isn’t so bad. Like I had a bad night, this day wasn’t this horrible nightmare that I thought it might be. So like that really, that helped to alleviate my anxiety. And then the other thing was that when I reached this turning point when there was one night and I had this realization that, Oh my God, I’m not scared to go to bed tonight. Like I’m not nervous about what’s gonna happen. I just thought about it like oh if I can’t sleep, I can’t sleep I’ll get up and watch TV. Esther: I’ll get up and do something It’s bonus time for me to get something done that I need to get done. So I was thinking oh my god This is the first time that I’m actually Not scared to go to bed. I’m just and then I when I couldn’t sleep I just felt frustrated and I was like, so this is I’m just frustrated, like a normal person. Esther: I’m not I’m not in a panic, I’m not feeling like this is the end of the world, I’m not feeling like I’d rather die than be awake now, which is what I would think in the past. I would have these catastrophic thoughts. And this time I just thought of it as a, as this pesky little nuisance. And, the way Insomnia is that one of the episodes, I remember somebody described it as a schoolyard bully. That if you ignore it, and if you don’t give it the attention that it wants, then it just goes away, and, just leaves you alone. Then you don’t feel that kind of you don’t feel that panic over it anymore, so it loses its power. Martin: Yeah, it would be great if we could just experience those transformations at the click of our fingers, right? To not have that fear anymore of going to bed or of being awake during the night. But often it does take practice responding to the wakefulness, the thoughts and the feelings that can come with it with less of a struggle. Martin: And the more we can do that The more the brain can learn that, oh, this isn’t a threat. I don’t have to go to battle stations, light the red flashing lights, ring the alarm bells just because it’s time to go to bed. And it sounds like that’s what you experienced. Or that was one of your kind of breakthrough moments when it was time to go to bed and it was like, I don’t feel the intensity of that fear anymore. Maybe there was still some thoughts and stories, what ifs, but you felt that you could respond more flexibly to them, like you had options, you had alternative ways of responding compared to maybe in the past where it was I can, all I can do is fight and put effort, whereas now I’ve got a few different things that I can do in response. Martin: Does that sound accurate? Esther: Yeah, it was just like, I’ve been there, and I’ve survived, and it sucked, but it wasn’t horrible. It wasn’t like anything unbearable that I couldn’t get through. So once you see that it’s not as scary as it seems, like that really helps to that helps to alleviate your anxiety over it. Esther: And then you’re not obsessing about it as much and, consequently you sleep better. Martin: And something else you touched upon was you had that difficult night. And so, the mind probably was racing away telling you how awful the next day was going to be. And sometimes the days can truly be awful when we have difficult nights. It’s important to acknowledge that. And at the same time, sometimes there can be some okay moments during the day. Martin: Sometimes there can be good moments during the day, and sometimes we can even have good days after really difficult nights. And so it sounds like that was perhaps another one of your breakthrough moments or big insight that you picked up was that it is possible to have some good days or some good moments even after difficult nights. Martin: Was that the case? And if so, how do you feel that insight was helpful for you? Esther: Yeah. There’s a, there’s one example when no sleep has led to the most amazing day of my life. Yeah. And that was when I was in labor with each of my kids. with my daughter, I was, I went into labor overnight. So I wasn’t able to sleep. And at about 3 AM, I said to my husband, like the contractions are coming regularly, it’s time. Esther: So that night I didn’t sleep the whole night. So we went to the hospital and he was sleepier than I was. Because I guess he wasn’t the one in labor, so like his body didn’t have to keep him awake. So he was sleepy, but I was wide awake. And I was, I didn’t feel, like I didn’t feel any of those feelings that I’ve had with, when I would have these bouts of insomnia. Esther: I’d be like, oh, this is normal. Like I’m, it’s normal for me to be awake right now. I’m not freaking out. And then the next day was one of the best days of my life. And, it was surprising. Like I, I didn’t sleep at all and yet I felt so good. And that the same thing happened when I was on labor with my son after that too. Esther: Like I time I, we got to the hospital about at about midnight. And again, like I, my husband was dozing, but I wasn’t sleeping. And I’m like I’m not supposed to sleep. I’m about to give birth. So I like that was another day when I didn’t sleep a wink. And the next day I was like wide awake and I was excited. Esther: And it was like this rush of adrenaline that your body generates. So yeah that’s an example of how, even if you have a night of no sleep. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the next day is going to be miserable. Martin: I think that’s a great example that you shared there because the wakefulness was still the wakefulness if we remove labor from the equation, you were awake then just like you were awake multiple times when you were struggling with insomnia. The difference is the context of that wakefulness or maybe the way we were responding to that wakefulness when maybe when we’re struggling with it less or when we’re less tangled up in it. Martin: The less influential it can be the less problematic, the less power and influence, it goes back to that bullying analogy, right? The less we’re responding to it maybe the less power and influence it has, the less interest it has in controlling our lives or our actions. And that how our nights go, isn’t a guarantee of how our day is going to go. Martin: No, there is a separation. Like what happens at night? We have a nighttime experience and we have a daytime experience. And there’s definitely an influence. They can influence one another but they don’t have to at least not a hundred percent of the time. Martin: And I think this is also where it’s helpful to make sure that each day we’re doing things that are important to us, or doing things that matter to us, just so we give ourselves that opportunity to recognize that even when things are difficult, even if we have a difficult night, we can still do things that matter, even if they’re really small. We can still do things that are important. Martin: We can still move toward the life we want to live, even when things are difficult. And if nothing else, we can pick up opportunities to recognize that we can have some okay or some good or some great moments during the day, even after really difficult nights too. Esther: Yeah, and another thing that I realized was that you know physiologically the symptoms of excitement and the symptoms of anxiety are pretty much the same like you have the increased arousal you have the rapid heartbeat and like the kind of restless feeling where you can’t sit still, but the difference is in the interpretation. Esther: So like when you’re, when you have the pleasant kind of arousal, like when you’re, when you just had a baby, or like when you’re in love and you’re constantly thinking about that person, or when you’re excited about some event that’s going to happen, then like you can also experience a loss of appetite, loss of sleep, and But you don’t care as much. Esther: It doesn’t give you distress. Like it adds to the euphoria. So I thought that was interesting too. Martin: Yeah, I think that’s a great point and it’s something I’ve actually thought about quite a lot. If you, let’s, for example, if you really intently imagine winning the lottery, so if you imagine you’re sitting on the couch in the evening, whenever the lottery draw is about to take place, you’ve got that ticket in your hand and that first number rolls out and you matched it. Martin: And then the second number rolls out and you matched it. Like what are you feeling? Like you, maybe you start to breathe a little bit shallower or a little bit deeper, maybe your heart rate picks up and then another number comes out and you feel you’re getting more tense now, more excited, more adrenaline searching through you. Martin: And then let’s say all the numbers come out and you’ve won the jackpot. And now. If we think to a time when we’ve been really anxious, maybe it’s the middle of the night, maybe it’s the middle of the day, maybe we’re at a job interview anything like that, what are those symptoms like? It’s like the heart rate picks Esther: Yeah. The same Martin: maybe we feel tense exactly, but most of us will probably enjoy that experience of winning the lottery, compared to the experience of anxiety at night or a day, but it’s just like you described, it’s how we interpret it. And I think a lot of it comes down to our resistance to it. We’re going to be less resistant to experiencing all that stuff as our lottery numbers are coming out and we’re about to be a billionaire, but we can have a lot more resistance to it in the middle of the night, for example, when we see it as an obstacle to sleep. Martin: And so maybe it’s that resistance that really is the key to how much power and influence it has over us. Martin: When there’s less resistance, maybe the stuff can flow a little bit better. It’s if we imagine a river and that river is all the anxieties that we’re going to experience in our lives, the river flows. If we don’t want to experience it, now we’re going to build a dam. Martin: What happens? It all backs up and backs up and becomes more, right? It just grows. So without that resistance, we don’t put that dam in place. And maybe it just flows by and it has, doesn’t have that opportunity to accumulate or become quite so powerful. Esther: Like basically just to stop fighting the physical symptoms and stop fighting the uncomfortable thoughts that you sometimes have. Esther: So the gist of it is just to to acknowledge what’s happening and then move on. Carry on with your life and, do the things that, whatever it is that you enjoy doing. Another thing is when when you, when I would have these nights of anxiety, sometimes I would have something, The next day so I would be tempted to I would think like maybe I should call out sick maybe I should cancel that, Karaoke night with friends because i’m not gonna enjoy it when I feel this bad But then like you think of the alternative and it’s what am I gonna do? Esther: I’m, just gonna sit at home and worry about the anxiety and the insomnia. I’m not gonna be able to sleep so It’s gonna be like the it’s the worst thing you could do pretty much as tempting as it may sound it’s And, I heard on one of the episodes also that somebody was saying that when you are, when you’re not well, it’s your body’s natural impulse to get you to rest, to get you to stay home and rest and take it easy, and that works with any other illness, but not with insomnia. Martin: So when the anxiety shows up, maybe you’re less inclined to grab the suit of armor, grab a sword, grab a shield and a helmet and start going to war with the anxiety. Martin: Now maybe you’re more likely to acknowledge the presence of the anxiety and continue to do things that matter, even when it’s present, even when it shows up, even when things are feeling difficult. Esther: Yeah, exactly, because, there’s no there’s no way that I’m gonna be able to get rid of anxiety for good. And to say to myself that I’m never gonna feel those symptoms again, there’s no guarantee of that but you know if you stop fighting it, then you just Put your attention to more pleasant things and you know even when it’s hard even when your mind is still like playing on this loop and making you Worry about all kinds of things whether it’s insomnia or whether it’s something that’s currently going on in your life that you’re stressed about You know even If you don’t feel like engaging in something else, if you don’t feel like I don’t know, doing whatever it is that you plan to do the next day, any enriching and fun activities. But you still do them. And then once you do them, you you get, you get into it. You like, you get more out of your head and you get into into those activities. You get distracted spending time with other people and talking about your lives and things like that. And, that gives the anxiety less power. Martin: So you just touched upon a really important thing to emphasize, and that is that anxiety still shows up from time to time because it’s a natural human emotion. Anxiety is always going to show up for as long as we’re living and breathing human beings. But it’s your relationship with it has just changed. Martin: Like it’s losing its power and its influence. And so it’s causing less of a struggle when it shows up. You’re better able to live the life you want to live do things that matter independently of whether anxiety is present or whether it’s not. And that’s the key difference that tends to happen when we move away from that ongoing struggle course by trying to fight it or permanently get rid of it. And how about sleep? How did sleep change for you? It was, I think it was about a year ago that we finished working together. What’s sleep like for you these days? Is there such a thing as an average night? Esther: The average night is I go to sleep when I feel sleepy. And that’s pretty much it and then sometimes if I have trouble falling asleep I like either I either turn on a podcast or an audiobook and I lie in bed and relax Or I get up and watch tv or Do something more pleasant like I always have these words in my mind that the goal is not sleep The goal is relaxation and i’m thinking like even though I would like to sleep right now Like it’s a good opportunity for sleep If I’m not sleeping, then that’s something I can’t control. Esther: But what I can control is the way I react. I can control the goal is just to make the wakefulness more pleasant, like you said. Sometimes I do experience I do experience insomnia from time to time sometimes if I’m, wake up during the night, can’t fall back asleep. Then I I just go with the flow and then I think, okay, this isn’t forever, this is just, this one night, it doesn’t mean that it’s gonna be like this all the time. Doesn’t mean that it’s gonna be permanent. Esther: And like I even made a list on my phone of things that are more pleasant than lying in bed awake. If I feel like I, like I’m frustrated and I can’t sleep, then I can look at my phone and I’m like, Oh, this is how I can put this time to good use. Martin: Yeah. And every now and then, yeah, you experience anxiety because that’s natural and normal. Every now and then you have a night that has some more wakefulness than normal. You have a difficult night because this is all just part of the human experience. Martin: We’re always going to have some difficult nights from time to time. We’re going to have difficult thoughts and feelings from time to time. What matters is how we respond because A, our response is something that we can always control. and B is our response that really determines how much power and influence all of that is going to have over our lives. Martin: So Esther, I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out of your day to come onto the podcast. I’ve got one last question for you, which is a question that I ask everyone, so I don’t want you to feel left out. And it’s this, if someone is listening to this with chronic insomnia, and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia, what would you say to them? Esther: what I would say is get this course. If you’re really struggling with insomnia, then it’s definitely worth it, a hundred percent. And what the kind of thing that makes it worth it is the fact that this kind of knowledge, it sticks with you. So it’s not like the kind of course where you take in, I don’t know, for example, computer science or something where if you don’t practice it for a long time, then you can forget some of it. Esther: This is the kind of thing where it stays with you. So like those. Insights that you get, you face those fears head on and the insights that you get from it they’re in you like they become part of your thinking your whole attitude toward sleep really changes and You know, you have this new way of reframing your difficult feelings or when you have a bad night of sleep like your attitude completely does a 180 So that’s why I think it’s really worth it for anyone who’s who’s on the fence that’s what you should consider. Martin: Great I appreciate that, and again, I appreciate the time you’ve taken out of your day to come on. Thank you again. Esther: Yeah. Thank you so much Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. Mentioned in this episode: Busting sleep and insomnia myths with clinical psychologist and behavioral sleep medicine specialist Dr. Jade Wu (#13) How Pat got rid of her insomnia by embracing a philosophy of “fake it until you make it” and accepting anxious thoughts (#27) I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Please share this episode!

Irina’s struggle with insomnia began when she experienced a night of no sleep. This created fear and confusion and Irina worried that something serious was going on — that something might be broken in her brain. The more she tried to make sleep happen, the more pressure she put on herself to make sleep happen, the more elusive it became. Irina tried medication but that left her feeling unrefreshed and didn’t deal with the hyperarousal and increasing levels of anxiety she was experiencing. Turning to cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), Irina found sleep restriction helpful in the short-term because it helped her rediscover the reassuring sensation of sleepiness rather than fatigue and exhaustion. Unfortunately, the CBT-I technique of stimulus control (which involves leaving the bed when awake at night) backfired because she was someone who loved spending time in bed — so getting up felt like a punishment and something that raised the stakes at night. She ended up putting more pressure on herself to make sleep happen and that, in turn, made things more difficult. The turning point came when Irina committed to an approach that didn’t involve actions geared toward trying to make sleep happen. Although she was originally outraged at the idea of accepting the presence of insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, the fact that so many people who had recovered from insomnia were telling her it was the only thing that worked for them led her to commit to this new approach. Acceptance was not easy but ongoing practice helped Irina build skill in experiencing insomnia with less struggle. She became less attached to the idea that she needed to make a certain amount or type of sleep happen. She became more comfortable experiencing difficult thoughts and feelings. The focus of her attention expanded and, as that happened, the power and influence of sleep and insomnia shrunk. Irina let go. She allowed the full range of human thoughts and feelings to come and go as they chose. She gave sleep the opportunity to take care of itself while she took care of doing things that helped her live the life she wanted to live. And, that’s exactly what happened. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Hello, Irina. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Irina: Hello, Martin. Thank you for having me here. Martin: It’s great to have you on. I’m really excited to get going. So let’s just start right at the beginning. can you tell us when your sleep problems first began and what you think might have caused those initial issues with sleep? Irina: Yeah, I remember the exact day, the exact date, the exact day of the week. It felt like it happened All of a sudden out of the blue, because I never struggled with insomnia before, but with the clarity of hindsight, I could actually see that there were some signs of burnout looming over me for eight months to a year before my insomnia started. Irina: They were just not invisible, but they were not serious. I would get a little bit more snappy. I would feel more tired just before insomnia started. I felt I had tremors from time to time, but I thought, you know what? I’m just busy because I was working a lot on my computer and I thought it’s all the tension. Irina: So I didn’t give it much attention until one night I just couldn’t sleep. I just couldn’t sleep the whole night. And it was. Bewildering. It was very, scary. Martin: When that night of no sleep happened, I think maybe when it first happens, it can be a bit confusing, but typically when it’s that first night, we’re Oh, that sucked that night. And we have that expectation or that things will get back on track or we don’t really dig too much into it, especially if we feel like, Oh, I was under a lot of stress. Martin: What happened next that made you feel that this might be a bigger problem, this might not be an isolated incident? Irina: I actually, yeah, I have to say, I thought, what, maybe tomorrow I’m going to sleep, maybe tonight. So the next day, maybe tonight I’m going to sleep. Although it was very weird, even the first night, because in hindsight, I realized I was having panic attacks. I just couldn’t understand what was happening. Irina: Cause I felt like. twitching and I felt hard palpitations, but I couldn’t put it together. So it just felt like a feeling of doom, a feeling of fear inside me, but because Mentally, I was in a good place. I was not afraid of insomnia. I was not afraid at that point of anything. I just couldn’t understand what was happening in my body because I had all these bodily sensations, but I dismissed it saying, okay, tomorrow or tonight, I’m going to sleep really early, 7 p. m. Have a nice bath, go for a run before that and retire early and sleep like a baby and, compensate for the previous night. Irina: Of course that didn’t happen. I put it in more pressure on my sleep and the whole night I was wide awake waiting for the sleep to happen, listening to audio books, listening to meditations, listening to all kinds of mantras and sleepy songs and stories, and that didn’t happen and I was like, Oh my God, I got a problem. Irina: I didn’t think I got insomnia to be honest. That was not on my, mind. I was like, I’ve got a serious problem. I must have some neurotransmitter dysfunction. Something broke in my brain because. I don’t have a problem with sleep, so it must be something really serious going on. So went to the doctor straight away saying, Look, I can’t sleep. Irina: I don’t know what’s happening, but something really serious is happening. And doctor said, I don’t think it’s anything wrong. Maybe it’s a little bit of stress. Why don’t you take some Zolpidem. Irina: Just take this pill for a couple of days and it will sort itself out in a couple of days. I came back home and I had mixed feelings about Z drugs, about sleeping pills because I was thinking in my head, like, how sustainable is this? But okay, let’s do it for a couple of days and see. So I had the pill and, I did fall asleep, but I slept very little, four hours and I woke up not at all refreshed. Irina: I didn’t feel like I slept. I was, still pumping with adrenaline. I was hyper aroused 24 hours. So I felt like I didn’t sleep. So I was like, what’s the point of taking medicine if I’m not sleeping and I, knew that they create dependencies. So I stopped taking them and then I was just looking for solutions because I was still convinced that it’s not a sleep problem. Irina: That’s another reason why I didn’t want to take sleeping pills because I thought, no, I really have a serious problem somewhere. One of my organs just stopped functioning properly and I need to get it checked. So the whole rabbit hole started of, going for doing all kinds of blood works, going for ECG. Irina: At some point I thought it’s a heart problem. I was convinced it’s a brain problem, but at that point I was anxious, which I didn’t realize in the moment. So I didn’t have the courage to go into a scan machine to get a brain scan, but I did everything else and surprisingly everything came back positive. Irina: It was all good. So that’s when I was. Thinking maybe, it is something to do with sleep. Martin: Yes, it’s interesting how, you said that you had these different tests to try and get to the bottom of this and everything came back positive. And almost all the time when we get test results that are positive, we’re really excited, right? But sometimes when it comes to looking for the root of our sleep issues, the struggle, when they come back positive, we can almost be a little bit disappointed because we still don’t have that explanation for what’s going on. Irina: Yeah. I so wanted something to be negative actually, because if I, if they told me Your vitamin D is your vitamin D deficient, which actually I was, I was looking for something more serious, like some B12 or something, or not that is more serious than vitamin D, but I saw I was deficient in vitamin D throughout my life. Irina: at various points. So I was reading that B6 overdose can cause. So I was thinking maybe I’m overdosed on something. Maybe I’m really deficient on something. And I was really disappointed because I, if it’s a vitamin or supplement deficiency, you can just supplement it and you’re okay. And at least you have something to focus on. Irina: You okay, this is the problem. I know how to fix it. But here, when everything is okay. It’s you really don’t know where to go. You really don’t know what to do. Martin: Yeah, and I think that’s why it’s so easy to get tangled up in this struggle because it’s like we’re trying, right? no one can say that we’re not trying. We’re trying to figure out what’s causing this. We’re trying to fix it. And the tricky thing with sleep and insomnia is it’s now you can look back. Martin: I’m sure you can realize this, but when we’re tangled up in the struggle, it’s different. But it’s like the more we try to fix it, the more we try and make sleep happen, the more we chase after sleep, The more elusive it can become, the more difficult it can become, the more exhausting and more difficult everything becomes. Martin: as we just embark upon this completely understandable quest of trying to fix, trying to control, sleep. Irina: Absolutely. It makes so much sense now after going through this and learning through the experience. Any pressure that you put towards that process creates only more fear and more tension and more pressure on sleep, and it just results in less sleep and more fear. Martin: Yeah. It’s like that vicious cycle, isn’t it? It’s we try more, we put more effort in and we struggle more. So then we try more, but then we struggle more and we just caught in that loop. And it just feels like there’s no way to break out of that loop. Irina: 100%. Martin: How was this new relationship with sleep, this kind of more problematic relationship you’re having with sleep? How is this affecting your days? Irina: Oh, it’s affected my entire life. It affected my days. It affected my nights, but, in a word I became dysfunctional. I was, I had to stop my masters. At the time I was in the middle of a master’s degree and I just couldn’t do it. I just didn’t feel like it’s worth it anymore because here I had a life and death situation and I just couldn’t focus on, on my studies. Irina: I was in a panic mode constantly. My mother flew in from another country to help me with the children. I have two young children because I was, consumed by this preoccupation of finding what’s going on. And, in the beginning I was very much, so somebody, some of the GPs suggested that could be stress. I, went and I saw several doctors by that, at that point. Irina: So I said, okay, if it’s stress, then I definitely need to relax. And the more I was trying to relax, the more stressful it was. So the whole day I was like doing baths, reading on the internet. Google is such a bad advice. when you go through insomnia or anxiety or any fear, that didn’t help at all. Irina: I, it affected my health to the extent that. I was not able to eat, I lost a lot of weight, I was on the verge of anorexia. I was not able to focus on anything else. I was not, friends, life, social life, travels, studies, career, nothing mattered anymore. It was all about fixing this. And just at some point in the beginning, it was fear of death that was pushing me forward and I need to find a solution. And then, thanks to your program where you mentioned, meta analysis by Lovato and Lack, 2019, where a paper that says that there’s no Relationship, no association between insomnia and mortality. So I relaxed a little bit. It actually helps a lot in those circumstances because we are afraid of death. Irina: We’re afraid of, am I, going to die because of this? It was very helpful to, to take a step back and say, ah, look, it’s not that grim. It’s not that bad. People actually can live with through this. With this, through this at that point, I didn’t know, but it was very assuring to, to have that, to, know that also because I was, doing, and I’m still doing my research. Irina: I’m about to finish my master’s that one that I had to stop because of insomnia, because I was doing the research at my ironically, it’s a master’s in neuroscience and mental health. So this kind of things I should have known. But. When I was going through my master’s, anxiety didn’t seem like a very serious problem. Irina: I focused all my energy on things like schizophrenia, bipolar. So it was ironic for me to go through this and not see myself as anxious. so it affected, my life on all levels. Martin: Yeah, I think you really encapsulated how this can just end up controlling our actions, it can really consume our attention, and it can just become the focus of everything as we’re trying to We’re trying to fix it. We’re troubleshooting. Even when we don’t want to be looking into how to fix it, our brain is probably whirring around in the background, just thinking about what tonight’s going to be like or what last night was like, how we can fix this, and it just becomes. Martin: So much harder for us to live the life we want to live, right? Because it just consumes so much of our energy, our attention, our focus. And it can, like you touched upon, it can control, end up, feel like it controls our actions as well. Irina: Yeah. It’s something that. Especially the thoughts, the actions you do have control and you’ll learn. And we’ll speak about it. We learn, you learn that you have control over your actions. That’s one of the few things that you have control in this relationship with insomnia, with the thoughts are automatic and you can’t control them. Irina: And the more you try, the more difficult it becomes. So defusion as part of ACT. Is it was a key component in my recovery because I learned that I’m not my thoughts and I don’t have to identify with my thoughts and even though they are present. I can let them be, you, just can’t stop them. And for some time, they will just run around your head saying, let’s leave tonight. Irina: let’s leave tonight. And I remember I was listening. I was binging on your podcast in that, period. And you had one of the guests mentioning that at some point she was so stressed that she would think about come, evening. She would think about sleep, how she’s going to sleep three times in 10 minutes. Irina: And I’m like, Oh my God, I feel like I was thinking about a day and night every second. I just couldn’t get away from It it was like a prison. It was the prison of, your mind. But that also goes, Martin: Yeah, those thoughts can be very difficult and distracting. And I think there’s a kind of parallel there, right? It’s like when insomnia shows up and we don’t want it to be there, so we try and get rid of it. The same can be said for all the thoughts and the feelings that can come with insomnia when it’s happening and the next day. Martin: We don’t want those thoughts there. We don’t want to experience the feelings that are showing up. And so we are naturally going to want to try to fight them. or trying to avoid them from showing up in the first place. And that can be another source of additional struggle, just like you touched upon. Irina: I agree. The feelings can be very difficult when you go through this, very difficult and very and natural. So the thing with feelings in the beginning when you feel that panic, you’re obviously in fight or flight, you’re trying to find a solution, and that feeling that way seems to be justified. Like people who tell me relax, calm down, like no it doesn’t matter, you sleep, you don’t sleep, I could don’t understand. Irina: Like I was looking around this people who are trying to reassure me. It’s they obviously don’t know what insomnia is. I, was governed by feelings of fear, but because they felt justified, I didn’t pay attention to them. I didn’t feel they were inadequate. However, later on in my experience, when I spiraled down. Irina: Because insomnia is a very nonlinear journey. And I was listening to this message in every single podcast, but somehow I didn’t, I don’t know if I didn’t register. I knew that it was not linear, but you, when you, think that it’s not linear, something is not linear. You think that something is up and down, and this is a very important message for, anyone struggling and feeling that. The process is not linear or not even up and down. This down can be quite long. You don’t before you go up. So it doesn’t have to be one day, good one day, bad. It can be a few weeks. up and down and then you can have a really bad, right? Irina: So when I was going through this down and I was thinking, Oh, this is not going to plan. This is not up and down. This is really becoming really, serious. I was assaulted by emotions of hopelessness, emotions of deep sadness, emotions of Despair, and sometimes bereavement, sometimes grief. Sometimes it was a feeling that somebody died. Irina: And at that point, my, my, insomnia degenerated into generalized anxiety and agoraphobia and many other things, but it felt the feelings were. Were very real. They were not true because nothing was happening on the outside. Everything was stable, but inside there was a storm and it’s very important to accept everything. Irina: To accept your sleeplessness, to accept your thoughts, to accept your emotions. Martin: The more you try to relax, the harder it becomes to relax. And I think that’s related to what you were saying where we can try to maybe fight certain thoughts, but we can also chase other feelings. so the more we kind of chase relaxation or the more we try to not think, the more again, we get get tangled up in that struggle. Irina: Yeah. any pressure on any resistance in this journey backfires. You, it’s very hard to let go. Thankfully I came across your channel fairly early in my journey and, before that, I, heard about acceptance because before that CBT-I is the gold standard. Irina: I’m still as, somebody who experienced insomnia and as somebody who I’m doing now a research proposal on, insomnia and I’m looking at, treatments. It’s the research community and in science is full of CBT-I and I can understand that it works for some people, but I was surprised to see that acceptance is still in the shadow. Irina: when you look on Google Scholar, for example, unless you know about it, unless somebody tells you about acceptance, it’s hard to, come by. So first thing that I did was CBT-I because that was the thing that I knew about, about, and. Thankfully, somebody that was one of the mentions, it was not also an online program and it is helpful in its own ways. Irina: I think psychoeducation learning about sleep is, helpful. they helped me understand that my hypnic jerks were absolutely normal, which was again, reassuring, but they had a very small portion on hyper arousal. And thankfully they had something. And, So they touched on, acceptance. Irina: And I remember I got enraged when I saw acceptance. That was the very first time I came across the word acceptance. I was in rage. I was, it was outraged. Like, how can you ask me to accept such a state? It’s just not human. it’s cruel to tell someone, accept your state. And they had a Facebook group. Irina: And I remember I just lashed out, vented. I said, I cannot accept living without sleeping because my pattern, I was not able to fall asleep. I know that somebody struggled with sleep maintenance. For me, sleep onset was the problem. And, I was like, I was grateful if I could fall asleep even for an hour. Irina: Like I was praying for an hour of sleep because my pattern was no sleep, And then one day I would sleep four hours, six hours, maybe sometimes eight hours, but that was not usual, but usually no sleep. A little bit of sleep, no sleep, a little bit of sleep, more or less. it’s not every day is different, but this was a sort of a pattern that I was going through. Irina: And when they told me that I have to accept that, I just said, no, that’s not possible, but what pushed me towards acceptance was the feedback. Like it was a CBT-I group. But people who recovered and, came back and were maintaining that group were talking, acceptance is the only thing that worked for me. Irina: And I was still in disbelief that people could accept such a thing, but yeah, you do actually, you do. And in the beginning, the advice that I got, the advice that I got in that, and then I left that forum because sleep restriction was not something I could do, was that you don’t have to accept that this is going to be your life forever, you just accept that this moment. Irina: This moment is the way it is, and there’s nothing you can or have to do in this moment. Tomorrow, next moment could be different, but this moment is the way it is. And in time, you start with accepting a moment, and then another moment, and then you, can’t believe it, perhaps in the beginning, but you can get to a point where you can accept a life of insomnia. Irina: And the moment you can accept living with it, Something paradoxical happens and you don’t put pressure anymore and the hypervigilance goes down. So acceptance. Yeah. It’s a big, one. Martin: We we associate the word acceptance with giving up, but it’s not really about that. It’s about accepting that there’s some stuff that we don’t have control over. It’s about accepting that the more we struggle with the difficult stuff that we can’t control. the more difficult it can become. and like you said, it’s not about accepting this is the way things are going to be forever. Martin: And with acceptance, If nothing else, we start to move away from adding the struggle on top, which makes it more difficult. when the insomnia, for example, shows up, we’re lying in bed, wide awake, when we want to be asleep, racing heart, feeling really anxious. That’s really difficult. Then, when we try to get rid of it, we try to fight it, we try to resist it. Martin: That adds this whole new layer of difficulty on top. And if we start to practice acceptance, being more comfortable, being more skilled in experiencing this difficult stuff, we’re not adding more difficulty on top. We’re not consuming more energy, more attention. We’re not giving this stuff more fuel and more focus within our lives. Irina: absolutely. When I returned to my master’s, I changed the focus to nervous system and to anxiety. I, It’s very interesting to see how biologically this happens because the moment you are stressed, like even let’s say stress can be, what is stress? Irina: Stress is basically a demand for energy. I need more energy now. And you can be stressed when even now, when we have the discussion is the first time I do a podcast, I could feel a little bit of adrenaline. So what happens is that you feel stressed. And there is like a stress axis called the HPA axis in, our body. Irina: And it sends the message to, to secrete a little bit of adrenaline and cortisol. and that’s okay. That gives us energy. But if this is chronic, or if, On top of this, so you’re already pumping with some hormones on top of that, you add an additional layer of stress by thinking, Oh, what can I do? Why am I not sleeping? Irina: Why is this happening to me? As you said, all this struggle, you add an additional layer off of hormones. You’re basically asking your stress system to give you more energy. To keep you awake so that you can find a solution. And this prevents you from falling asleep because you don’t need the stress hormones pumping your body. Irina: And when it comes to acceptance, I was, listening about acceptance and I, had to go on belief and the beginning, but it still didn’t make sense to my science mind, to my logical minds. Like, how does this work? How can acceptance bring me to a place of, Peace, a place of rest, a place of non resistance. Irina: And I learned that all this hyper arousal, it’s stored in the brain area that it’s called the limbic system. You cannot, order yourself to be relaxed because your emotions, your fear is in the, limbic system, which contains the amygdala or the fear center. And the way acceptance works, the more you expose yourself to, I would, stay at night awake and do you see the paper in the back. That’s your AWAKE exercise. I still have it because it’s useful in so many areas of life, not only insomnia, but it reminds me to accept anything that comes my way. Anything that I don’t have control over, I don’t need to resist and to spend energy that I can use. So I would stay awake at night and I was doing AWAKE. Irina: I was doing acceptance. Sometimes I was using the audio sometimes I would just follow the principles and I would just Go and expect, what do I feel? What kind of bodily sensations? What kind of thoughts are there? What kind of emotions? Usually emotions, they’re so present. You can’t ignore them. It’s, you don’t need to look for them. Irina: They’re just there. And, they come in all flavors, frustration, sadness, hopelessness, fear. And the more you stay with them, because you cannot tell your brain. Or, okay, now you don’t be afraid because there’s nothing to be afraid of. It works differently. The limbic system, the fear system works through behavior. Irina: it’s like a, it’s like a child for those who have children, young children, toddlers, and you tell them the afraid, let’s say my, children, for example, they are sometimes afraid of monsters and no matter how many times I say there’s no monster, there’s no such thing as monster. Like you cannot explain it. Irina: You could not think. Out of fear. It’s something that you have to feel it’s a behavior. It’s something that and that takes time. So don’t expect that you can come out of this like you listened when you know about psychoeducation. That’s about 20%. The edge is off. But in order to put this fire out. It takes time. Irina: It takes a few months, the best case and a bit longer, it depends on how much stress you’re adding on. When you stay with the emotion and with the thoughts in your mind’s eye, and you observe them, first of all, you detach, you are not the emotion. And when you observe, you become curious. So when you stay with that moment and you accept it and you say, look, I have no control. Irina: I see you, I hear you can, you choose whatever words in the beginning, I was choosing your script. And then I just started using my own words and talking to this feeling and say, I let you be look at it. There’s nothing I can do. So just be here, be with me. So the exposure, it’s a sort of exposure therapy, but instead of a dog, you have this emotion that you expose yourself to, and this is how your amygdala and your fear center. Irina: Learns that, okay, it’s okay to be with this emotion. It’s not that scary, but it needs a little bit of time for you to grasp the message, to, really feel it. Cause it’s not something that it can think. It’s not the logical brain. Martin: I’m really grateful for you sharing science there, in the context of your own experience. so it makes it relatable and more understandable, more digestible. and I think something you, you, implied, I’m not sure if you explicitly mentioned it, but all these difficult thoughts and the feelings, like a child being scared that there’s a monster under the bed, for example, they come from a good place. Martin: It’s your brain looking out for you. And I think that’s always important to emphasize because it can feel like our brain is against us. Why is my brain doing this to me? but it comes from a good place. It’s the brain firing up, doing its job that it’s hardwired to do. Number one job, is to keep us alive, keep us safe, protect Irina: You’re so right, Martin. And I remember you saying this in your program and I was so mad at my brain. I was like, I don’t need your protection. Leave me alone for God’s sake, leave me alone. But it’s so true. the main function of your, body, of your, of our nervous system is to keep us safe. So it’s in a prediction mode, especially when it, feels in danger when it’s, hyper aroused. You start, you, the brain, it’s not, you don’t do it consciously, but the brain starts looking for So it is trying to protect us, but unfortunately this is counterproductive when it comes to insomnia, when it comes to anxiety. It’s a very paradoxical approach. Basically, you have to do the opposite of what your mind is telling you to do in those circumstances. Martin: That’s exactly why fighting our brain never works because our brain, as far as our brain is concerned, it’s trying to protect us, it’s trying to keep us safe or it’s preparing us for a battle, for a struggle. And, We’re never going to win against that because the brain is hardwired to protect us, to look out for us. Martin: And as soon as we try to fight the brain, that fight is never going to end until we are exhausted. And then as soon as we’ve got some energy back again, we’re going to engage in the fight. And again, it’s just going to consume so much of our energy and our attention. It’s a battle we just cannot win. And I think most of us, if we can take a step back, we might be able to recognize that our experience is confirming that to us. Martin: The, fight and the struggle that we’ve been engaged into up to now is completely understandable, maybe even admirable. Maybe we’ve learned a lot from it, but maybe it’s time for a different approach if our experience tells us this isn’t something that’s getting us closer to where we want to be. Irina: Although it’s very hard to follow that knowledge, like we know, like most people, especially people who go through programs through knowledge that you impart, they, know, theoretically, they know all the right things. Steps, they know the right behavior. They know what they should do, but you still feel consumed by your mind I think there’s also a study showing that people who experience anxiety and when I say anxiety insomnia, anxiety because it’s a hyper aroused state Usually it comes With the fear of not being able to sleep and all the consequences of not being able to sleep or maintain sleep. Irina: but it’s usually people who have, so there, there’s some research showing that people who experience anxiety, they also have high IQs, they are usually very smart people and their minds are very active and this mind, they’re trying to find a solution for them. And it almost feels maybe if I think about it a bit longer, maybe I’ll come up with something. Amazing to, to get myself out of this, but no, it, just, no matter how much you think and the brain will go, there. You just have to accept that it will go there and, let go. You can’t, as we mentioned earlier, you can’t control your mind, but you’re right. with the understanding of the right steps and the right approach, it’s through experience. Irina: It trickles in little by little, you start taking a step back. You start. Just observing what’s happening, but that is a skill you, that’s something that you learn in time. You can’t learn it overnight. I think this is where some frustration is. Coming after like I went through your program and psycho education, it’s super important. Irina: I think many people will relate to the experience of I listened to your podcasts, I listened to, I think I went through the first two weeks of your program. I don’t know if you changed the format or not, but I was, I already understood how it works, I knew what I had to do more or less, I was jumping ahead, and that gave me Relief enough for a little honeymoon with my insomnia like I had a few weeks where I started falling asleep some nights. Irina: I didn’t maybe I didn’t follow but I said, oh, that’s okay Let me watch something I was able to and then that logical brain was not enough to sustain me anymore. after some time, I don’t know what was the trigger, but it felt like I got out of this honeymoon. I went back into the rut. I went back into the struggle and it was hard again, but psychoeducation, it does help. Irina: And it takes time for it to, consolidate in your brain. Martin: knowledge can be so helpful. but what really matters is using the knowledge, applying it, taking action. And that’s the hardest part is the action. And I’m really glad that you emphasized that this whole approach of acceptance, is hard, it takes time, and I’m really glad that you categorized it as a skill because I completely agree with you. Martin: It’s a skill like any other skill, and skills take ongoing practice. We never truly master them. We can get really good at them, but we never truly master them. It’s an ongoing practice, and Like any skill that we can reflect on in life that we feel that we’ve developed pretty good skill in. If we reflect on that journey, we can see that there will be times in that journey where it felt like we were making great progress. Martin: We were a natural at this. This is always feels easy. And then there are times when it felt really hard and your brain starts telling you to just throw it, throw in the towel, give up on this. This isn’t working. But how did we get to where we are today with that skill? We just kept going. Even though there were really difficult periods where it felt like we weren’t making any progress, even though there were times when it felt like we were making progress, what mattered was that ongoing practice, the continued development of that skill. Irina: it is absolutely true. It is a skill and not an easy one. Especially, I remember listening to your podcast and I love that part where people say what helped them the most. And, I, remember myself not having much trust in acceptance, Oh, you provide, lots of tools that can be used. Irina: And I remember AWAKE, I never paid much attention to it in the beginning. I just revolted when I was confronted with acceptance in that moment. And it felt like all or nothing. It felt either I can accept it or I can’t. And it is true. It is like learning piano. It is like learning a language. You learn to accept as, as difficult as it sounds to believe it, it’s hard. Irina: As difficult as it is to believe, you do learn. You do learn to accept, and the good thing is that acceptance is, a skill that you can transfer to other things that happen in your life because life is not only about insomnia, many other things happen Martin: Yeah, it is so transferable, right? And I have a lot of clients tell me that not only did they find that the work they did. As we were working together, all the work they did as they went through my course to be really helpful for insomnia and all the thoughts and feelings that come with that, but it’s so helpful in many other challenging areas of life, where difficult stuff shows up. Irina: a hundred percent. Like as hard as the journey was. I think I would go through this again, if I can, if I knew the benefits that I’m going to reap at the end of it, because it doesn’t only end with a normal state of equilibrium where you can sleep and you can come back to your life. Because sooner or later, if you follow the steps, if you follow the steps that you outline in your programs, in your channel, sooner or later, your system is going to find that peace, that place of peace. So in addition to that, you also learn a lot about yourself. You learn about not to identify with your emotions. So important because before insomnia, I, okay. I was not a big overthinker, but I, thankfully I used to have. Positive thoughts, but it’s so easy to, get hooked on the thoughts and just get lost in that reality and overthink something. Irina: And it’s with this skill that act, teaches through defusion from your thoughts, you learn to take a step back and see, does this, and you, start questioning yourself, your, thoughts, does this. Thoughts serve me, or is this emotion true? Like it’s real, but am I maybe, a bit tired? Irina: And I’m exaggerating it a little bit in my mind. And it also helps you to see pain in other people. You become much more compassionate, become much more patient and just your whole life and the values is this journey really, important. to face with your life values. You really have to, because there’s so little energy, there’s so little desire to live, at least in my experience, I got to a point where there was no point in life and it was the values and before. Irina: Insomnia. Like when people were, I was doing some coaching sessions or like at work or what are your values? I was so idealistic. And I always thought that I need to have at least a certain number of values. And when you’re face to face with life and death, you realize that there are a couple of things that really matter. Irina: If you were to die tomorrow, these are the only things that matter. And when you have those values driving you on, you normally make the right The best decisions for yourself and for, the people around you. So it reprioritize my, life. It also taught me not to take life that seriously, especially the narratives that we create. Irina: Sometimes we have to let, them go. They’re not as, true and as urgent as they seem. They usually, they’re usually not that important. Martin: It’s amazing how, when we change our stance from, away from resistance and opposition and more towards being a curious observer, what we can actually learn from the thoughts and feelings that are showing up, that we can identify. And like you suggested, you’re okay, is there anything important or useful here? Martin: what is my brain trying to tell me? Maybe it’s trying to remind me of my values. Maybe it’s trying to remind me of what’s important to me. Maybe it’s trying to remind me of what my strengths are, the kind of life I want to live. And that can be just so insightful. It can really just change our whole relationship that we have with our mind and with the thoughts and the feelings that are being generated by our mind, just by taking that new approach of curious observer. Martin: rather than, rather than strong unyielding opponent with a sword and a shield and I’m ready to go to war with this stuff. Irina: I so agree with you, Martin. It’s. It’s so liberating not to identify with your thoughts and your emotions anymore and only and have the power, have the choice to decide, does it serve me? Does it not? And what do I do? And do I need to do? Most of the times you don’t need to do anything. We don’t need to react. Irina: You can take a step back and you can See your situation or your life from a different perspective. And it also makes you more tolerant to, towards other people, because the moment you learn to not to identify with your mind, the mind of other people doesn’t have such a strong, especially for people who. Irina: Maybe our people pleasers, or, like that kind of personalities where they avoid, they’re afraid of not hurting someone, or they worry about the opinions of others. What I used to be, it helps you not to take them as seriously either, because you, in that process, I had to decide what matters and what didn’t. Irina: and I chose a few people whose opinions really matter and I would take them into account. I would take them seriously. Everything else I would. I can easily decide. Does it serve me? Does it not? And, it is a powerful skill. Like I, in the aftermath of this journey, I opened a channel in my native language, and sometimes I get insulted because some people don’t understand when, you talk certain concepts, especially people who don’t experience anxiety, it doesn’t affect me at all. Irina: One of the concerns that my husband had was like, please don’t open any channels. don’t do any online work because there are many trolls, people, bullies. And do you know, my mind bullied me so much. In that journey, it’s very hard for somebody, unless I care, like your opinion, my husband’s opinion, like my children, that matters, everything else. Irina: There’s a distance between me and. And other words, so it is, the life skill. Martin: There’s a bonus side effect there, isn’t there? When we reduce that resistance, we realize that we have a choice of how to respond. because when our approach is resistance, It’s, I’m just gonna resist. that’s the only thing I’m gonna do. It just feels automatic. But when we lower that resistance, and we make a little bit more space for these thoughts and these feelings to be present, we start to realize, I think, that, okay, now I have a, I do have a choice of how I, want to respond to this. Martin: That choice is mine. And then we can even go one step further as we start to gain skill. And we can also reflect on how our response serves us or not serves us. is, okay, so I’m having this difficult thought. Now I get to choose how to respond to it. Now is that response going to move me closer to where I want to be? Martin: Or is that response going to pull me away from where I want to be? And that can just be so helpful, realizing that we do have that choice. Irina: Yeah, absolutely. Martin: I’m curious to know, as you were practicing this approach of acceptance, reducing your resistance, moving away from trying to control sleep and whatever your mind was choosing to do, were you still practicing any of those CBT-I techniques, I guess the two big ones would be, like sleep restriction or stimulus control, getting out of bed when you were awake, stuff like that. Irina: So stimulus control really backfired because I love spending time in my bed before falling asleep. I love reading and not being able to do that made me even more Panicked, more uncomfortable being in my bedroom, relaxing, it, it redefined my relationship with my bed, with my bedroom. And it was not a nice definition. So I didn’t like that approach, because I want to be able to go into my bed whenever I want to do whatever I want and not have to be stressed about it. Irina: So it didn’t work. I, just quit it. It was very unnatural for me to do stimulus control. Sleep restriction, however, helped me in one respect. I did it for a while because when I started, they say the minimum you can do is five hours. You start with five hours, you, do an average, you keep a sleep diary, and then you do, an average. Irina: And then if it’s below five, then you do five. And for me, that was like plenty of time because most of the nights I was, I couldn’t fall asleep even for one hour. So I was like, yeah, no problem. I can do five hours. but then if you do it a few days in a row, one, one, It creates a lot of pressure. Like I see the, I’m sleepy, and then the time comes. And I have to get into bed and I’m just wide awake. And it was just having just this amount of time, put a lot of pressure before, before getting into bed. One thing that it did help me though, because in the beginning, I thought that I’d lost the ability to sleep and I couldn’t feel sleepy, like that feeling of when you get into this. Irina: It’s, such a, it’s such a pleasant feeling when you fall asleep and you’re between reality and sleep. And I lost, I completely lost that feeling. I remember asking you like, Martin, how do I know that I’m sleepy? Because I forgot how to, I forgot what it means to feel sleepy. And I was like, yearning, does yearning mean that I’m sleepy? Irina: And you said, no. And it’s so true, yawning. I learned later that yawning is actually a sign that your hyperarousal, your nervous system, sympathetic nervous system is calming down. So when you start yawning, you’re actually entering your parasympathetic nervous system. You’re starting to relax. And normally before we sleep, we relax and then we get into sleep, but it’s not necessarily a sign of sleepiness. Irina: So when I was doing sleep restriction, I got to a point where I couldn’t keep my eyes open. And that’s what you, say in your program. this is one of the signs that this is when you’re sleepy and when it’s time to go to bed, when you just like literally can’t keep your eyes open. Irina: And that, Instance reassured me that, okay, there’s, I could, I still know how to feel sleepy. It’s just that doesn’t happen most of the times, but the, this it’s still there. And then I stopped because it was not, it was, as I said, it was putting too much pressure on, on, on the window, especially at the starting point. Martin: Yeah, I think you make a good point there with, let’s just talk about these two key techniques associated with CBT-I, the sleep restriction and the stimulus control. I think the. The sleep restriction, just as you said, it can be a really powerful way to remind us that we can feel sleepy rather than fatigued. Martin: And that can be really reassuring but both of these techniques, any technique, any exercise, any action can backfire if our intent is to make a certain amount or type of sleep happen or to fight or avoid certain thoughts and feelings because our experience tells us that stuff cannot be directly or permanently controlled. Martin: I always like to think of the sleep window as being most helpful as a way to just help us move away from chasing after sleep. So if we give ourselves, for example, an earliest possible bedtime and a reasonably consistent out of bedtime in the morning, Maybe then we’re less likely to go to bed really early before there’s any sleepiness and maybe we’re less likely to stay in bed really late in the morning. Martin: which then makes it harder for us to live the life we want to live and do things that matter. and with the stimulus control, I think that as well has lots of potential to backfire if it’s used as an effort to get rid of wakefulness. if we’re told that we have to get out of bed because we’re awake, then we’re like you said, we’re likely to start putting a lot more pressure on ourselves to make sleep happen, to fall back to sleep. And it can almost be like an additional layer of punishment, especially if we’re someone that likes being in bed. We don’t really care that we’re awake in bed. Now we’re told that we have to get out of bed, then that can just make things even more difficult. Martin: I’m also curious, one thing that is often associated with the CBT-I approach is the use of sleep diaries, sleep journals, logging, tracking, did you continue with that as you were exploring this new acceptance approach or is that something that you moved away from as well? Irina: I moved away. I did it for a while. I did it for a few weeks, but. I was trying to think less about sleep and every time I had to wake up in the morning and I had to look back on my night, instead of saying, you know what, whatever happened, it’s a new day, let’s, move on from here. I had to reflect on, guess, guesstimate how long I slept and I did it for a few weeks. helped to the extent that many nights were actually better than my average. It wasn’t, we, have a tendency to I don’t want to say exaggerate or, downplay our nights, but in that state of fear, we, can feel like our nights, all of our nights are bad, like no progress is happening. And when there is something objective or approximate, it puts things a little bit into perspective and shows you, you know what? Irina: It’s not that bad. You think you didn’t sleep, but look, it actually, something happened there because. Some sleep happened. So it’s both positive and negative in my experience. And to come back to CBT-I, stimulus control and sleep window and the sleep diary, it certainly must work for certain people because there’s so much research. Irina: Like I saw hundreds of studies done on CBT-I. So even though my experience doesn’t align, I cannot neglect the research that, that I read. So for some people, perhaps depending on their levels of arousal, depending on their behaviors, depending on how they think, it could work. So it’s no harm trying, because what I like about CBT-I is that it’s a little bit more prescriptive. Irina: It’s a bit, it’s a little bit more, you’re given a recipe. You just need to follow the steps. You don’t need to overthink it. You need to, you don’t need to deal with feelings that much, or you don’t need to accept anything, which in the beginning is a very vague concept. And that’s that’s easier. Irina: It’s like level one, I would say, but then for me, that didn’t work. So I needed something on steroids and I think acceptance is like, it is, it’s what’s helped me through, the journey. Martin: Yeah, I, think what maybe matters most is that there are options out there. It’s often said the CBT-I is the gold standard for dealing with chronic insomnia. And so if we give that a try and we find that it doesn’t work for us, then we can get really concerned that, Oh my goodness, the gold standard isn’t working for me, or I’m really struggling with the gold standard. Martin: That means there’s nothing else left for me now, but there are still other approaches. and. an approach of acceptance, for example, is one of them. There’s probably others out there too that we haven’t really heard of or that are still being developed. But what matters is there are always options available just because something hasn’t proved to be helpful. Martin: Doesn’t mean that you’re broken or there’s anything wrong with you. It just means that you didn’t identify with that approach and that’s perfectly fine. we are all individuals. And it’s just a case of finding an approach that resonates with us that feels workable to us. I thought it was good how you shared the kind of pros and cons with keeping a sleep diary or tracking sleep Because I think that in the short term it can really reveal some interesting insights For example, maybe it does show that we’re getting a bit more sleep than we thought Maybe it does show us some things that are going to be useful. Martin: Like we might notice that, oh, I’m spending 10 hours in bed, but only sleeping three hours on an average night. Maybe there’s an opportunity there for me to reduce the amount of time I set aside for sleep, for example. But perhaps after a week or two, maybe there’s not really more insights to be gained. Martin: Maybe when we keep it much longer than that, we’re still keeping that focus on sleep, it becomes the last thing we think about. When we go to bed, as we jot down the time we went to bed, and it’s the first thing we reflect on when we wake up in the morning, we’re trying to relive the night. How much time was I awake? Martin: How much time was I asleep? So we keep that focus of attention. We reinforce to our brain that this is something we need to fix. This is an issue. This is a problem. I need you to divert resources onto this and it can even influence our actions and our behaviors that day. We might wake up feeling a I don’t know, let’s say we wake up and we feel pretty okay, and then we reflect on our sleep and we realize, oh, I only got one or two hours, or two or three hours, or I woke up a lot. Martin: Then we might decide, oh, maybe I need to do a little bit less today. Maybe I, can’t have that meeting with friends this evening. Maybe I need to go to bed earlier or something like that. And it can just make it a little bit more difficult, I think, to, open up more to what’s in our lives other than sleep when we’re regularly tracking sleep or journaling sleep or kind of recording it and on that ongoing reflection can be a little bit of a potential pitfall I think. Irina: It does affect your actions. it, insomnia in general affects the way you behave and you, in, in this, hyper aroused state, you tend to contract all your attention, starts revolving around yourself, around your sleep, around your problems and everything else is insignificant. And I think I even emotionally, I felt if before this, I could call myself a kind and compassionate person. Irina: As I was going through this experience, I couldn’t feel certain emotions, like gratitude, like joy. So you do become very closed and it is important as hard as. As it sounds, but I know many people for whom going out and just living their life was a pivotal moment in their relationship with their insomnia. They didn’t give it as much importance. They, and that sends the message to your amygdala. I don’t have a problem. Everything is okay. Look, I can go out, I can have dinner, I can exercise. And I think for me, two important moments. And I say it and I feel the irony, as I said, I was studying mental health and I remember like in the program three weeks in or four weeks in, in the program and I sent you a message and I say, Martin, I think I’ve got a problem. I don’t think I’ve got insomnia. I think I have anxiety. I think I really need help. And I remember, you sent a very reassuring message saying, I don’t know anyone who has insomnia and doesn’t have anxiety. But it’s something so helpful to understand from the beginning that Insomnia is a byproduct off of this fear, but coming back to the actions, it’s, I think it’s very important as hard as it is, and the beginning is going to be super hard. Irina: You don’t feel in that panic in that boat to go out and socialize, even like I isolated from my friends, and this is knowing. Martin, this is knowing. I did your program. I knew that I had to go. I just couldn’t. I just, I spiraled down and I isolated from my friends. I was not even texting them. Irina: and it’s hard. And I think the moment, there was a moment when A thought came maybe because people, my, my closest friends, they were worried about me. They were texting me and I said, maybe I should, there was just a thought like very fickle, very faint thought. Maybe I should reply to my friend. Irina: It was so elusive. It disappeared. I said, no, stay here. maybe I should reply to my friend. So I took the phone and I said, look, I’m not great, but, At least I’m calling you or I’m sending you a voice message. And then I remember one of my friends, she was, she, it was November. I was still struggling. Irina: And she was saying, how about we go to a strudel, Austrian strudel workshop to make some pastries. I, and that was in the evening. Yeah. That’s the time when I’m preparing for sleep. And. But I knew the knowledge was there. and it was very far away. It’s much easier to commit to things that are far away in the future. Irina: So I said, yes, let’s do it. I’ll come to that, workshop. Although I really didn’t care about strudels in that state, but I knew that I had to go out. Like I got to a point where I was not leaving my house. I was not able to take public transport and I said, I’m going to re expose myself to life slowly. Irina: And for me, like the point was not to go and make that strudel. For me, the point was to be able to call a cab, to get into the cab by myself. Because prior to this, my husband would bring me everywhere because I was just incapable. I was too afraid of doing things. I went there and, of course the mind would say, How are you going to make a strudel? Irina: You’ll make, you, you won’t be able to, you’re not able to focus on two sentences. you just, humiliate yourself. you, your friend is not going to feel comfortable because of you because you will feel like Your, my cognitive, I was like, my attention was never there. My memory was super bad in that period. Irina: So there were all these thoughts telling me not to do this, not to do this. And I said, you know what, I’m just going to do that. Even if I have to feel shame to the tip of my head, I’m just going to go out just to get into that cap, get to that point. And if I don’t make a strudel, I don’t make a strudel, but at least I’ll make the first step. Into my freedom and little by little. And then at the same time I planned, no, that was in October. I planned the, birthday of my daughter, she was five and I planned the birthday party with lots of people. And I was rolling in panic attacks at that birthday party. But I did it, and even though at the moment it’s very uncomfortable, after you finish, after you do what you have to do, the things that you have to do, you take care of your kids, you go to work, you go, you, take that walk, you, do what is good for you, even though it’s not pleasant, and it’s not going to be pleasant many times. Irina: When you finish, after you’ve done what you set yourself to do, there is a level of confidence that arises in you. There is some strength inside you that appears and tells you, I can do hard things. I can do things even if it sucks. I can do things even if I don’t want to. Opposite action. Irina: Opposite action. It’s super important in this state, because in this state, we feel so demotivated we are, we don’t want anything. We’ve experienced a lot of anhedonia, a lot of apathy. nothing brings you pleasure. I don’t want to, it’s not for everyone is the same. many people with insomnia don’t go to this depth of experience, but it could be that for some people, life loses a bit of itself. Irina: Luster and color and rhythm, and it’s important to know, even if your mind is telling you this is how your life is going to be, there’s no point in this life anymore. It’s important to know that your mind doesn’t know anything. In that moment, these are all lights and you don’t need to identify with these thoughts because you do emerge. Irina: You just need to be patient and you need to move. You need to act because action creates energy. And I remember I was listening to your program where you talk about action and the values. And I think you even have a video of people hiking and there was some boulders in front of, and it does feel like crawling through mud in that state. Irina: You don’t want to do much, but you have to crawl. If even if it means that you have to crawl, you have to crawl, but you have to move. And I remember though, I would put these things, I would set things, I would do these things, I would call my friend, I would We planned a holiday in India. We go to India every year because my husband is from there. Irina: So December is normally when we go there, and I really wanted to go. also because I feel a lot of, It’s a place where I norm, but going, leaving the house and getting into the airplane, I don’t have a problem. I fly, we fly almost every month before and after, insomnia. So flights were never a problem for me, but in that state, I just couldn’t imagine having the capacity, having the courage to get into a plane, but there was a strength inside me doing this little action by action that says, you know what, I’m going to get on that plane. Even if they have to tie me to the luggage, I’m gonna go. And you have to, do it. Martin: I think this is a powerful reminder of the importance of turning knowledge into action. Because like you said, we can maybe know or feel as though we do need to keep doing things that matter. But it’s so much easier said than done. what matters is taking that, converting it into action. And, So you had that knowledge that withdrawing from your friends, for example, it wasn’t really helping. Martin: But maybe at the time it felt like, there’s, you’re not ready to go out with your friends yet, and that’s fine. But just, you’re still planting the seeds just with that awareness. That awareness itself can be very powerful. That awareness that withdrawal might not be getting you closer to where you want to be. Martin: And look, because then you start to consider alternative options. that might be available to you. And it’s perfectly okay. And it’s just something I encourage to start really small. To start tiny. If you feel like you can’t go out with friends, for example, maybe you’re just going to start by text messaging a friend, or phoning a friend. Martin: If it feels like you can’t go for a run, and running’s important to you, maybe you’re just going to step outside and just sit in your front yard. Or have a cup of tea or a cup of coffee in your backyard, something like that. Just small, tiny actions. That, because that’s what matters, is turning the knowledge into action. Martin: and you learn from it. you learn from every action that you commit to. That you, everything you experience, you learn from. And you’re reminded, like you said, of your capabilities. You can be reminded that you do still have a certain level of functionality. You are still capable of doing certain things. Martin: And you can also be reminded of your strengths. And you can be reminded of your values, and values can be so helpful because we can use them as a guide to doing more of the stuff that matters to us. Irina: so true, Martin. So true that you need to take small steps because otherwise you feel you may feel overwhelmed and it also helps you, you build confidence with every little step. ’cause as you say, I did exactly as you say, I isolated and then I started texting, and then I would just send a voice message because I didn’t want to. Irina: Be confronted with a life question or like to be too long in the conversation. and then I would, yeah. And then I would maybe call. So it’s little steps, but this little, steps, they, add up and you build the confidence because the mind will tell you, you can’t do this. You can’t do this. Irina: And every time you make the step forward, you prove the opposite. And then you start questioning, what is my mind telling me? Is it always true? Maybe, it’s not always true. Martin: Yeah, you can start to realize that these thoughts are, at the end of the day, snippets of information. That’s all they are, and that information might be true sometimes, it might not be true other times, it might be ambiguous sometimes, it might be a fact sometimes, it might be a myth sometimes, it might make you feel really good sometimes, it might make you feel really bad sometimes. Martin: Yeah. But it’s just a kind of electrical burst. It’s just a signal is some information and it’s up to us. It’s always up to us. what we then do with that, how we choose to respond to it. And one thing that I liked that you emphasized was, when you went out to, the strudel house, I’ll call it. Martin: You were still aware that you had, you were experiencing difficult thoughts and feelings when you made that plan on the way to the location whilst you were there, but you still acted. You realized that you were able to act in ways that mattered to you, even though there was lots of difficult thoughts and feelings present. Martin: And I think that, as an experience, can be really insightful and somewhat liberating too. Irina: Yeah. And many times, It’s actually better than we expect. I actually made a very nice strudel that night, so it wasn’t that bad. And this, again, it could, it doesn’t have to be always perfect because you learn in both situations, even if you don’t feel great and it’s not the best experience, you’ll learn that you have the strength, you have the. Irina: capabilities. And if it turns out great, even better. You learn that your mind lies sometimes. It scares you sometimes. It’s not always true what you, think and that you can do more than, you think. Martin: And doing things that matter that are important to us doesn’t always feel good. and something that I have clients tell me is that let’s say for example that they Really enjoy playing tennis and so they say to me, okay, i’m gonna i’m gonna commit to going to play tennis tomorrow i’m gonna see how I feel after I go to play tennis and then they’ll play tennis Great, they committed to that action. Martin: And then they’ll come back and they might say to me, I didn’t enjoy any of it. All I could keep thinking about was, how tired I was, how exhausted I was. I couldn’t concentrate. My stamina wasn’t there. All the difficult stuff that they experienced. And I think at that point it’s important to emphasize, okay, all that is completely valid, it’s understandable that you felt that way, that you had those thoughts. Martin: But what truly matters is you committed to that action. What matters is you went and played tennis. You did something that was important to you, and it might not have felt great to do it, but you did something that’s a reflection of who you are, who you want to be. What mattered was you committed to an action that moved you toward the life you want to live, rather than engaging in an action that pulled you away from the life you want to live. Martin: What truly matters is that you took that action. You moved toward the life you want to live, and that’s really what counts. Because we can’t guarantee what we’re going to think or feel. Martin: We can only guarantee our physical actions. Irina: Yeah. Martin: If someone is listening, and they’re thinking, okay, this idea of accepting insomnia or accepting difficult thoughts and feelings, committing to actions that matter to me, I’m interested in that but how is this going to fix my sleep? How is this going to change these difficult thoughts and feelings I’m experiencing? Martin: what would you say to those people? How does this approach actually get us closer to moving away from that struggle with sleep, moving away from that struggle with difficult thoughts and feelings? Irina: It creates a distance between you and it. Insomnia. In time, physiologically speaking. Your stress response is going to cool down. You won’t react as long as you don’t engage and you don’t struggle. You will not fuel this response. And in time, physiologically, you’ll just feel less aroused. When you’re less aroused, you’ll automatically fall asleep more easily. Irina: But one thing that you’re normally experienced as this, because this is not, it’s not a linear process. It’s a little bit up like this. One, there will come a point where you don’t feel stressed. But you still can’t sleep and that’s totally okay. it’s part of the journey. It just means that you’re not relaxed enough to sleep and you cannot control how relaxed you are. Irina: It’s just, it’s a little bit of hyper arousal there. Your thoughts in time will change their color. You’ll start, you won’t pay as much attention to how sleep went. You won’t be counting the hours, even though you don’t do it consciously. You won’t be looking back, thinking you won’t be enslaved by your nights. Irina: And you will move into life, into living and sleep will happen on its own terms. Sometimes it will happen. Sometimes it won’t, it’s not going to be always perfect, but the real, the thing that really matters is that you. Won’t care as much anymore. it’s not going to make a difference to you. And you will also learn that you can have a perfect day. Irina: In fact, an amazing day after bad nights that happens, and that will decrease the pressure you put. and it takes time. That’s all this little things moving into life through actions, learning about how insomnia works, how hyper arousal works, finding your values and not overstretching yourself with, worries and with things that consume you sleep or not sleep related generally will all in time decrease your hyper arousal. Irina: And you’ll feel generally less worried. And in time, your thoughts will change. Your emotions will change and your sleep will change. It will not matter anymore. Like for example, at the moment I sleep well, but I do have nights that are better than others. It doesn’t matter anymore. I didn’t like, even before insomnia, I told you that I never had issues with sleep. sometimes you have a bad night, even before people could sleep. we just create this idealistic picture of how people sleep. You don’t sleep eight hours every night. It’s It’s not even, we’re so different. It’s we, have different levels of activity. We have different body compositions. Irina: We have different mental tasks during the, you, it’s, it wouldn’t be normal for us to sleep all of us eight hours every night. In fact, there is some research I, need, I didn’t have a dive into it, but I came across a research saying that people who sleep not more than seven hours have better cognitive skills. Irina: I can’t vouch for the quality of the research. But I can see how some people function much better when they actually sleep a bit less. And I think sleeping long hours is associated with morbidity and mortality when you start sleeping more than eight hours. So again, this comes through learning through education, but it also comes through experience where. Irina: You realize that I don’t feel that bad. And you, all these things, they remove the pressure from sleep and you, I can’t say that you don’t care. You just don’t pay as much attention. It just happens. It’s something biological. Like you don’t pay attention to your breathing all the time. You don’t pay attention to your digestion all the time. Irina: You don’t pay attention to how your heart is pumping the same way you let go. And it just happens. you let the body take care of this. You take care of the things that you can take care. Martin: How long would you say that it took for this approach of accepting wakefulness, insomnia, thoughts, feelings, committing to actions that matter to you independently of sleep and even in the presence of difficult thoughts and feelings for you to get to a place where it just felt that you weren’t just constantly engaged in a struggle with sleep, that you were, that you had your life back from insomnia, that you had independence again, that you could do what you wanted. Martin: regardless of how you slept, regardless of what you were thinking and feeling. Irina: Seven to eight months. First four months I couldn’t even, I just couldn’t accept acceptance. it was difficult and I couldn’t see this going anywhere. It was just all over the place. And then the next four months it started slowly. My sleep was still unreliable. I was sleep still a concern, but I started having the confidence in the method and I started letting go. Irina: So I think seven to eight months. Martin: I like to ask this question, because It’s a good reminder that this is a process. It does take time and it takes ongoing practice. Martin: The journey is never linear. I don’t think life is ever linear, is it? So why should sleep or moving away from the struggle be any different? There’s going to be ups and downs. It’s gonna be times when it feels like we’re doing well and making progress is going to be times where it feels like nothing is working. Martin: and that we need to throw in the towel and try something else. But what matters is just that commitment to ongoing practice. Just keep on practicing. If this is an approach that you feel is workable to you, is aligned with what you want to achieve, resonates with you, then what matters is just continuing to get the practice in. Martin: that really is what counts and it often does take time. We are looking at months, I would say, rather than days, definitely not days, rather than weeks. Because it takes time to learn new skills and that is what this approach is. It is a new skill and so it’s gonna take time and ongoing practice to develop. Irina: yeah, definitely. Martin: thank you so much Irina for taking the time out your day to come on. I do have one last question for you and it’s this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening, And they feel as though they’ve tried everything that they are beyond help that they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. Martin: What would you say to them? Irina: I would say to them that insomnia is not a life sentence. Thankfully, nowadays we have channels like this where we can learn about the right behavior, the right approach, and we don’t have to live with this. If we have the knowledge, we know what we have to do. It takes patience. It’s a waiting game. It takes patience. Irina: It takes a change of behavior. It changed the, it takes the learning of a new skill, but you will be okay. And, if you open up to this experience, it’s much easier with the benefit of hindsight, but you will see that it can also be a very rewarding experience. You’ll learn much more than just how to overcome sleep issues. Martin: thank you so much again for taking the time to come onto the podcast to share your experience, and to share your growth and your transformation. It’s really appreciated Irina. Thank you. Irina: Thank you, Martin. It was a pleasure. And thank you for your help on this journey. It was invaluable. Martin: I appreciate that. Thank you. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. Mentioned in this episode: Insomnia and mortality: A meta-analysis Irina’s YouTube Channel (in Romanian) I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Please share this episode!

Dulce’s insomnia began when she left Mexico to study abroad in Canada. The stress of midterms and the change of climate led to sleep disruption. However, even after returning home, sleep continued to create a struggle and insomnia became a part of her life. Even when she felt sleepy, Dulce struggled to rest. Anxious thoughts regularly interrupted any sleep she was getting. Medication and supplements didn’t get rid of the insomnia or the difficult thoughts and feelings that were showing up with it. Things began to change for Dulce when her brother shared his observation that the more she seemed to try to make sleep happen, the more she seemed to struggle. Dulce began to realize that all the trying and all the effort to make sleep happen and all the sleep hygiene rules and rituals were giving insomnia more power and influence over her life and making things more difficult. Dulce then found the Insomnia Coach podcast and took comfort in the fact that what she was going through wasn’t unique or unusual — that she wasn’t alone. Realizing that a different approach was needed, she enrolled in my six-week course. Dulce started going to bed later at night and really appreciated the extra time she had in the evening (she also gave herself permission to watch TV, listen to music, and read books that were interesting rather than boring at night)! She started to respond to wakefulness and the thoughts and feelings that came with it with less struggle — being more of an observer rather than an opponent. She reduced and eventually eliminated her use of melatonin. Dulce found this approach empowering. Instead of trying to control her sleep, she was letting go — and this freed up energy that helped her do more of the things that really mattered to her. She became focused on controlling her life rather than her sleep and that shift reduced the power and influence sleep had over her. This process took time and Dulce created the best possible conditions for success by focusing on implementation rather than putting pressure on herself to make a certain amount or type of progress happen within a certain timeframe. As a result, Dulce has now freed herself from the insomnia struggle. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: All right. So Dulce, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast. Dulce: Thanks for inviting me. I’m so excited and happy to share my story with the people that is listening to your podcast, because that was the way that I discovered you. I discovered your program and listening to other people’s stories. So this is. The best way to share. Martin: Yeah, it can be so powerful to hear other people’s stories, that’s one reason why I’m just so grateful for guests like yourself being willing to come on and share their experiences, without further ado, if we can get talking about your experience and your story, if we start right at the beginning, when did your issues with sleep first begin and what do you think caused those initial issues with sleep? Dulce: I think that I struggled. I started struggling with insomnia like around 15, 17 years ago, almost when I was in college, two specific events triggered my insomnia. First, I moved to Montreal to study abroad and the stress of midterms. And also, it was very cold. down there. I was living in Mexico at that point. Dulce: So Mexico is pretty warm and I was so used to certain temperature. At night and I don’t know, I was used to my climate. And then when I moved there, I couldn’t, since I, I suffer from a lot of allergies and also my skin, I have a lot of skin problems. I couldn’t turn the heater on. And. In the middle of the night. Dulce: So I had to turn it off, but I couldn’t get, warm. So I couldn’t sleep and that started triggering insomnia afterwards because that got me anxiety like a couple of weeks. I couldn’t, I, was just starting thinking about. Okay, I’m not going to sleep again because so cold and that started with the trigger and that was my first one, the cold weather, the allergy flare ups in Montreal, along with the anxiety from academy pressure because the, academy level in Montreal was so high. Dulce: very complicated, then there made it difficult for me to sleep and upon returning home the stress of my university, because it was the last semester. And at the same time I was, in musical theater rehearsals and further also that exacerbated my sleep issues because I couldn’t calm me down. It was a lot of energy. Dulce: And we used to rehearse with a lot of people. People and music and we used to sing and dance. So when I came back home, I couldn’t sleep because of the energy. And during that time, I started, experimenting with, Valerian and herbal teas and. so many supplements and nothing could work. Nothing was working, not even in Montreal, not in Mexico, nothing. Dulce: So I would say that everything started there and. It became part of my life forever until now. Martin: So you had a lot going on. Sleep in general is quite sensitive to what’s going on in our lives when we are going through really busy periods or stressful periods or difficult periods or even really joyous periods. I like to use the example, if someone wins the lottery jackpot, they’re probably not going to sleep for a while, right? Martin: and I think that’s understandable. I think most of us can. understand, it’s not really mysterious, when insomnia shows up in the midst of, in that context with all, everything that’s going on. But what could then can happen, which then makes things mysterious and can lead us into that struggle that leaves us feeling stuck, is when all of that stuff, whatever it is, when all of that stress or whatever the circumstances are. Martin: when they’re no longer present or they don’t feel relevant anymore, when our focus is now really on sleep and it becomes like a preoccupation and it feels really mysterious and we find that our actions Whereas once we engaged in actions to do things that were important to us, that matter to us, we can start to find all of our actions are geared towards trying to make sleep happen, or trying to get rid of wakefulness, or trying to get rid of anxiety, trying to make ourselves feel relaxed and calm. Martin: And that’s how it can just so easily progress to this stage where, We get really confused and worried even more and start to think that, maybe there’s something broken with our sleep system. is that what kind of happened for you as these stressors and everything that was going on started to feel less relevant? Dulce: Yeah. at that moment I thought that it was that period of time that, and it would go and disappear, but then it persisted. That was the problem, that it persisted and, I thought that there was something wrong in me. Even when I felt sleepy, I struggled to rest. Anxious thoughts would wake me up all the time. Dulce: and that created the vicious cycle that you, I think that you mentioned many times during the course, that it’s sometimes something, there is an event, Triggers that insomnia and then it becomes just part of the vicious cycle. this pattern persisted over years, like forever. And it, that impacted the, my ability to, do everything in my life, even in my wedding. Dulce: probably I shared this. In the forum several times that in my wedding, I, during my wedding period, even it was a very small wedding. We were only 36 people, but I was so anxious and so, excited and she’s nervous at the same time. I couldn’t sleep during that time, like two months. I was sleeping, I don’t know, three hours, at night. Dulce: And then creating all these thoughts that, okay, I’m not going to sleep. I’m not sleeping, so I’m not going to rest. and I’m not going to sleep the day of my wedding. And effectively I didn’t sleep the day of my wedding. my mom that day gave me two, it was a full dropper of antidepressants. Dulce: And also I took two pills of Ambien in order to sleep. And I only slept three hours that day. that night. of course, the day of my wedding, I was completely high. I was super high. I was drugged because of all the, pills that I took. And, but I enjoyed my wedding and everything, thanks God. But besides that, everything persisted. Dulce: The insomnia persisted and all those thoughts. Martin: I think you just shared, you just gave us a really good illustration of how difficult this struggle can be and how it can really influence and disrupt us from living the kind of life we want to live. So it makes sense that we want to fix this problem. And that can lead us into that vicious cycle like you touched upon where it’s, like the more we try to make sleep happen, the more effort we put into it, or the more we try and control our mind or our thoughts and our feelings, the more difficult all those things become. Martin: And so then we try harder and then the more difficult it becomes and we try harder and it just goes round and round right? Dulce: Yeah, it’s, I love the way that you describe and it’s so easy to understand when you say, so you don’t eat if you’re not hungry. So you can’t go to bed. you can sleep if you don’t feel sleepy, but you persist and you insist and okay, you have to sleep. you must sleep. You, have to, try. Dulce: And, but the more you try the worst. It gets, so that is a, huge problem that I wasn’t aware. I thought that was the only way to do it because I didn’t know how to. And at the end, when I realized that, okay, so you just have to go through another pathway, not this one that you keep being doing for years, almost, yeah, almost 16, I think it was 17 years, a lot. Martin: Yeah, I like that hunger analogy. it’s like if, we’re trying really hard to make sleep happen, it’s how do we make hunger happen? So if I was to tell you, okay, make yourself hungry. Or there’s not really much we can do apart from not eat for a certain amount of time. And really that’s all sleep needs to happen. Martin: We need to be awake for a certain amount of time for sleep to happen. but then what can make it more difficult even once we’ve been awake is as soon as we start engaging in all those efforts, start struggling, start battling with our mind, battling with wakefulness, the brain kicks up a gear and it thinks there’s a threat because we’re so engaged in this struggle. Martin: So it fires up and it suppresses the sleep. System in order to keep us awake so that we can survive, even though there’s not really a physical threat in front of us. The brain doesn’t know the difference. And just as you touched upon when we are so tangled up in this struggle, there is that we’re not aware so much of we can just not even realize that we’re tangled up in this loop. Martin: because it’s like our brain wants to solve this problem for us, even though it can feel It’s a bit adversarial, but really the brain is trying to fix this problem for us. So it’s coming up with all these ideas. let’s try this, let’s try this, let’s try this. And then when those things don’t seem to work, it runs out of ideas. Martin: And so then the brain’s let’s, go back to trying all this stuff we’ve already tried, but we’ll try harder. Let’s just keep trying harder and harder and then we, It’s when we’re trapped in that cycle, it can feel like this is it. This is the only thing we can do is just keep trying harder. Martin: But one reason why it’s so valuable having guests like yourself come on to share their experience is when you’re able to look back, you realize now that there’s this awareness that there is an alternative option. We don’t have to be stuck in that cycle, that there might be a different way of responding to all of this. Martin: And it might be that different way that kind of gets us out of that vicious circle where it’s just more effort and more struggle. what, was that moment for you when, because you just touched upon, like, how influential this was in your life, some of the things that you tried. What was, what happened for you to think, ah, maybe there is a different way forward, there is a different way of responding to this? Dulce: I wasn’t aware that there was a different way, but the moment that broke my mind into pieces, I would say, or my heart was, I remember I went to see my parents in Mexico and my brother was at home also. And I came with my husband and we, my parents have different separate rooms. They in their house. So I remember that I couldn’t sleep the night before, because I never slept. Dulce: And, my husband told me, if you want, we can sleep in separate rooms and you can probably, you’ll fall asleep easily. And I said, yes, please let me sleep by myself in another room. And my brother came to the room and he knocked the door. He’s very direct. And he told me. Dulce, have you thought that you are so wrong? Dulce: You, every, time that I see you, could be every two months or even every six months, I see my brother. And he told me that day, every time that I see you, you need one more thing. On the top of what you have built already. So you are adding more and more structure in your life and you’re adding more curtains and then you bring your own curtains because I used to bring my own blackout curtains and I used to bring my ear pods and earplugs, sorry, and, everything and my melatonin. Dulce: And then I couldn’t, watch TV. at night with my family and enjoying my family time at night because I was thinking, okay, no, I have to start my, sleep hygiene. It’s eight o’clock. So I need to start right now. And I couldn’t enjoy my life as I wanted to. And my brother really Open my, eyes at day saying things so directly. Dulce: And he told me, you, you’re not broken. you don’t have anything wrong in you. It’s just that it’s your mind. You have to think that probably, you just have to let it go. And I needed that. That part. And then I started, I don’t know, checking podcasts and I stopped and then I, saw yours and I started listening to different people’s stories. Dulce: And I was like, okay, so there are more people like me in the world. I’m not the only one and they have overcome. So there’s. There’s a light. Martin: I think, first of all, it’s great that you just had that. I think you’re quite lucky that you had that person in your life that was able to just first of all notice everything that was going on, how you were struggling and just be able to point this out to you. Because like you said, we can have this lack of awareness when we’re really tangled up in the struggle. Martin: And second of all, I hope your brother never becomes a sleep coach because it sounds like he would put me out of business. Dulce: no, he’s the worst. He’s the worst, but at least he opened my eyes to see that insomnia, it’s, it wasn’t the insomnia itself. It was the anxiety that provoked it in me significantly affected my daily life. I became so meticulous about travel preparations, for example. I was ensuring I had blackout curtains. Dulce: And sleep aids, whatever, melatonin, magnesium, so many herbal teas. I was trying with one combination and then I was saying, no, this is not working. I’m going to change it for another combination or a mix of herbs. I spent many sleepless nights searching for solutions online. There’s so much information out there that is so confusing at the same time. Dulce: And at the same time, when I was searching online, I was checking, okay, this could help, but in my mind, I was. Thinking, Oh, all the blue light is affecting me. That is why that is the reason. So everything was a reason, at that point in my mind, that’s what I was thinking, I was completely wrong. Martin: It sounds like you had these. Just these lightbulb moments, aha, this is the solution. So then you try that and it turns out not to be. So it’s aha, this now is the solution, this is the reason. So then you try that and then it just repeats itself and repeats itself. And before you know it, it’s almost as though you are not living your own life anymore. Martin: It’s almost like you’re living your life on behalf of insomnia, sleep, anxiety. Like, all of your actions are just aligned with, if you imagine all of that stuff as this little gremlin that sits on your shoulder, your life just revolves around that little gremlin now. You’ve got to keep that gremlin happy, try and keep that gremlin calm, and you just lose sight of just living your own life. Martin: And It just makes everything so much more difficult, and I think it’s the reason why it’s so easy to feel stuck and to get stuck. Dulce: I was completely stuck and it just say it very clear. It’s like an external force that you are trying to calm. And you can’t do sometimes anything about it, until you realize that, or you, let it appears and then you can just look at it or observe it instead of fighting against it because it’s like you are punching to the wall. The stronger you do it, the stronger you’re going to feel the punch. for me, for example, traveling to different time zones was completely nonsense. So I didn’t want to travel. Didn’t want to go to Europe. I remember that I, sent you a message, an email asking you, what should I do now that I fixed my, sleeping troubles, my sleeping issues? Dulce: Should I just travel or not? And then your answer was so easy, it was so clear. You have to live your life the way you want to live it. You have to have the life, what is the phrase that you use? You have to follow the life that you want to live. And I love because I struggle with jet lag all the time and disrupted sleep patterns over and over again Martin: The truth is that Even insomnia aside, anxiety aside, to live a rich and meaningful life, there’s going to be difficult stuff that comes with that, right? In order for us to form a relationship with someone, for example, we have to expose ourselves to the possibility that we will get crushingly, devastatingly hurt by that person. Martin: To have children, we have to understand that they’re going to come with a lot of joy, but a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, a lot of worry. When we travel across time zones, there’s going to be some sleep disruption. But to do the things that matter to us, there’s going to be some difficult stuff that comes with it. Martin: What can we really do? We can acknowledge that to live the life you want to live, there’s going to be some difficult stuff that comes with it. Or we can withdraw from living a rich and meaningful life to try and protect ourselves or to avoid the difficult stuff that comes with life. But the issue then is we withdraw from life and we’re doing less, but a lot of the time that difficult stuff still shows up anyway. Martin: So now we’re in a place where we’re doing less and dealing with all of this difficult stuff compared to doing stuff that matters in the presence of the difficult stuff. And that’s really the two choices and it’s natural and normal for us to get pulled into this withdrawal strategy because I think it’s a survival mechanism. Martin: But often when we reflect on that, we can realize that this isn’t really making things any better. And it is like you’ve got that baseline of all this difficult stuff and all the things we’re doing to try and fight or avoid it. We’re adding on top. So now, it’s not just the insomnia, the anxiety, and all the other stuff that comes with it, but it’s also this big pyramid of all of the stuff that we’re doing in response to it. Martin: We just get dragged away from the life we want to live, and it seems like this is just consuming our lives and consuming our attention. Dulce: Totally. Yeah, it was consuming a lot of my precious time the only thing that we have valuable in this life is our time and if I don’t know, 50 or 60 percent of your time you’re wasting on, okay, what is the next thing, the next supplement? I’m a nutritionist, so I was so focused on that. Okay. So probably it’s my diet probably is. Dulce: the, this supplement is not working or I’m taking this supplement at night that it’s not working because it’s interrupting another supplement or another nutrient and it was in a rabbit hole eternally, Martin: So you had this kind of, it almost sounds like a bit of an intervention moment from your brother, where he really just pointed out, all these added layers that you’re adding on top, through your response to the insomnia and the anxiety and all that stuff. Martin: And so you found some podcast episodes, and you’d listened to some stories, realized that what you were going through wasn’t, unique, that you weren’t alone and that it was possible to explore a different approach. And so then we started working together. So you, enrolled in my online course. Martin: What were some of the initial changes you made that now you’re able to look back? You think, that’s what got me started on this new approach, this new path forward that was more helpful. Dulce: The sleep window. was perfect for me because that gave me freedom at the beginning. I was like, okay, so I don’t have to go to sleep early. Actually, I have to go to sleep a little bit later. No way that’s not, that, makes no sense, but I’m going to follow Martin’s instructions because, all these people have overcame their sleep issues, I’m going to do it. Dulce: So I’m going to just trust the process and I started doing it. And that gave me so much freedom. My husband, he’s a great sleeper. it’s one of the things that I usually, that I’ve been listening into your podcast that, when partners are together, what, when they, a person who has insomnia issues, usually their couples have the best sleep. Dulce: of their lives or they’re great sleepers. It’s like my husband. My husband is a great sleeper. So he would say, okay, do you want me to wait for you to fall asleep? And I said, no, just go to sleep. And I’m going to stay here watching TV. Why not? and that was something so weird for me because I stopped watching TV at, night. Or even, reading, novels or something that would wake my brain. I, used to stop reading that type of, science. I stopped reading science because I didn’t want to, think at night. So I say, why not reading whatever I want or watching TV? And it helped. I would say this since the first week it helped because. Dulce: I don’t know what happened. It was just my anxiety went away and I was sleeping, only probably five hours and I was waking up in the middle of the night, but at least I was sleeping during the first week. And that gave me that new found freedom. I felt empowered to take control of my sleep patterns, not to take control. Dulce: I would say to leave that control out. And just relaxing. So that was very, helpful. Martin: Before you did that, did you find that you were spending like a lot of time in bed or allocating a lot of time for sleep, like more than maybe you even did when you were, when sleep wasn’t a concern, so you were going to bed a lot earlier than you might have wanted to or staying in bed a lot later in the morning? Dulce: Yeah. As many people, I forced myself to go to bed earlier and being there because I was reading so many other books and other theories, that once you are In bed, you shouldn’t wake, you shouldn’t, wake up or stand up. You should stay there. I was not even drinking water at night because I was afraid of going to the bathroom and then when come back, my heart would beat harder so I couldn’t sleep. Dulce: That was my mindset. so it was just putting so many, things in meticulous, processes in my sleeping patterns. And yeah, I was spending a lot of time, wake up in the middle of the night thinking, or, sometimes I would do the respiration, the breath exercises, like three, it was how many? Dulce: Four seconds, inhale, five seconds, sustain and six seconds, exhale. I was doing that. That didn’t work. I was counting. I was, praying, asking God to send me, the sleeping and nothing worked until I woke up and then I went to the, pantry, took two or three or five or even six melatonin pills. Dulce: And I thought that would give me. with me, back to sleep. Sometimes it would, but the next day I would feel horrible. yeah, so I was just spending a lot of time in bed. Nonsense. Martin: I think that it’s understandable why we do that, because we want to get a certain amount of sleep, so we figure that, I’ll give myself that opportunity to for, sleep to happen. And then we can think, I normally spend, let’s just say four hours, five hours awake at night. So if I want to get. Martin: say six hours of sleep. If I add the five hours of wakefulness, then really I should be spending like 10 or 11 hours in bed. That’s an extreme example, but that’s, the path we can go down where we just end up allotting so much time for sleep. and yeah, our average nightly sleep duration is significantly less. Martin: So it’s almost like we’re setting ourselves up for really long periods of wakefulness. And, When we’re allotting so much time for sleep, there’s less time available for everything else, as you touched upon, and we can end up kind of feeling really constrained by it, because half of our life, maybe, is now set aside for us being in the bedroom trying to make sleep happen. Martin: And we can also engage in all these, we can start move, removing all these things that are important or meaningful or enjoyable, like watching TV or reading books or doing certain activities because we’re concerned how that might influence our sleep. Really, our goal with it is to start moving away from the chasing, from chasing after sleep, by doing things like going to bed earlier, staying in bed later. Martin: Because often when we can reflect on our own experience, the more we chase after sleep, the more elusive it becomes. So as a first step on the journey for moving away from chasing, to chase sleep less, is how about we start going to bed. or getting out of bed earlier, like just allotting an amount of time for sleep that’s a bit closer to what our current sleep duration is on average. Dulce: Yeah, and I think it’s really helpful. The, all the studies that you show on your program, on the course, because those studies, For people that are so structured and rational like myself, that you have to have back science back. Everything those studies give you also release that, okay, I’m not gonna die if I don’t sleep. Dulce: That’s okay. Some people can sleep five hours. at night and that’s okay and they feel fine. My dad, for example, he’s not the great sleeper and actually I already recommend him your course. because he really needs it. But all his life he has slept like five hours and that’s okay. That’s fine. But sometimes he struggles with anxiety because of that. Dulce: He thinks that’s wrong. And I told him it’s not wrong. Actually, let me show you or share this studies that. There’s no back science, there’s nothing to prove that if you don’t sleep eight hours at night, and we, not all the humans, not all humans are equal, or we are similar of course, but we can, follow different sleep patterns or structure and that’s okay, and you don’t have to wake up every single morning at the same time. Sometimes you’re going to wake up earlier, and sometimes you’re going to wake up a little bit later, and that’s okay. Martin: Suggesting that everyone needs to get, say, 7 hours of sleep or 8 hours of sleep. Would be like saying everyone needs to get a certain number of breaths every single day. It’s something the body wants to take care of by itself. Martin: And it’s when we try and understandably get tangled up in the process of it, that things become more difficult because can you imagine trying to count the number of breaths you take every day? Like how distracting that would be, how much of a focus it would be, and then trying to modify and figure out, okay, so between 10 and 11 a. m. to keep me on track, I should take this number of breaths and then between one and three, while I’m working out, then maybe I should, I’m going to take a certain proportion of breaths then I’m confused already just trying to figure this out and that’s really what it can be like when we’re trying to control sleep, like the body wants to take care of it by itself and the more focus and attention we give it, it’s like the more it can consume us and recognizing that We don’t have to get a certain amount of sleep, and we can’t do that through effort anyway. Martin: The body will take, will generate the amount of sleep it needs. It’s always going to generate the bare minimum. Maybe not on a single night, but over the course of a week, for example, it will generate the bare minimum we need. And everyone has their own individual sleep requirement, and even that can vary over our lifetimes, and it can even vary from day to day based on what’s going on in our lives. Dulce: Yeah, in terms of nutrition facts, it’s just the same. Not everybody is going to need the same calorie intake. It’s not the same as a child compared to an older person. To, an older adult, it’s not going to be the same and you’re not going to need the same macronutrient intake. so everybody is different and every person needs something different. Dulce: And also depending on the stage of your life. So this is something that really opened my mind. So why, if we don’t need the same amount of calories, why everybody needs the same amount of sleep? It’s makes no sense to me, but nowadays it makes no sense now, but before it would make sense. Martin: Yeah, it’s, it is so much different, isn’t it, when we’re able to look back. we just have this different awareness. When we’re able to look back and describe this process, it can sound quite straightforward and quite easy, but it’s definitely not. Martin: It’s one thing to talk about this. It’s really quite easy to talk about. But the actual action of change and the ongoing practice and the ups and downs that come with it, are still difficult. And it is a process and it’s a journey and it takes time. So you mentioned that a couple of the first things that you changed was you started going to bed later and that freed up more time for you to do other things. Martin: You started to make decisions or take actions based upon what you wanted to do, rather than what, that little gremlin on your shoulder was telling you to do. So you started to not really be concerned about what kind of spectrum light you might be exposed to. You would watch TV, you would read books that were of interest regardless of whether they might activate your mind or not. Martin: You started to break down those rituals or those rules and restrictions you had in place. What other changes did you make? Were there any other changes in addition to those? Dulce: Yeah, initially, I reduced my reliance on melatonin, for example, and also all type of insomnia medications, nothing too strong, but still, those are, what is it, for allergies, but they, so I, used to take the anti allergic drugs or antihistamines that helps to sleep and I used to take those so I stopped taking those but I was taking a little bit of melatonin because I was afraid of non sleeping. Dulce: but then I started lower down the dose little by little until I just stopped. I said I don’t need this anymore and embrace the sleep time restriction window. the frame. what about, or so I was learning about the correlation between sleep duration and health outcomes that, that has nothing to do rather than causation, because there is correlation, but there is no causation. Dulce: And that provided me with newfound freedom. I felt empowered also to stop taking control of my sleep, just letting, things go. And besides that, the awake exercise, I was like, Oh my God, this is the exercise that I need, not only for my, for my anxiety at night, but also during the day. I’m still doing the AWAKE exercise every single day. Dulce: I don’t care. And it’s part of my meditation, pathway because I’m in the journey of getting better in meditation and not because of insomnia is because of what type of peace gives me. But I think that your course gave me a starting point and exercising meditation, mindfulness. And I love the AWAKE exercise. Dulce: It’s been a game changer for me. So yeah, those are the patterns that I started stopping at the beginning and then little by little, letting everything go. I didn’t took my blackout curtains because, Because that keeps my room cooler and I love being not too cool, but not too hot at night But not because that interrupts my sleep It’s because I the way I feel and that’s the mindset that I’m switching Compared to I need to have all these situations and all these patterns in order to fall asleep Compared to that is no it’s because it makes me feel good and I keep doing my sleep Ritual, but because I enjoy it and my ritual is okay. Dulce: Now it’s 9 p. m I’m gonna start doing my makeup Removal routine my skincare because I love doing my skincare and I used to stop listening to music but now I’m listening to music at night or putting up a video Whatever video I want to watch in YouTube while I’m doing my skincare routine I love because that is my routine and that makes me feel good, calm Distress of whatever and during the day and then I close the windows I Drink a cup of tea Actually, I was stopping eating 5 p. m. Because I thought that was also one of the causes of my sleep issues. But now I stop eating at 6 or 7 sometimes, it depends on how I feel. But I do it not because of my sleep interrupting. I do it because that makes my, tummy feels better at night, lighter, and I wake up lighter, but not because that would interrupt my sleep. Dulce: Actually, when I go to Mexico to see my parents, oh my god, they have huge dinner and very late night. I have it because I want to enjoy with them, and I have it, sometimes I just go for a walk in order to get better digestion, I come back and I fall asleep. That is something that I wouldn’t imagine before, I don’t recommend nobody to eat late at night, but it’s more because of health issues, but nothing to do with, sleeping. Martin: Your actions are serving you rather than your actions are serving insomnia, sleep, anxiety, stress, worry, etc, Dulce: Yeah. Yeah. The farther you step away from, insomnia. And actually I love what the exercise that you put on the course that you say insomnia, so you repeat the word over and over again. So say it, until you realize that it makes no sense. The word is just a word. Dulce: That’s it. So the, farther you step away from that situation, the better you’re going to feel and the more focused you’re going to be on the things that matter instead of thinking on one little thing in your life. There’s many exercise in the course, but don’t worry, there’s nothing complicated. This is just tools that you are grabbing or taking. And the better the best tool that you collect, it’s the one that you’re going to keep the rest of your life. That’s the way that I. Dulce: I saw, but I found that incorporating these practices into my day and that helped me to manage the stress of the daily life, not only during night, but also the anxiety during the day. Martin: first of all, I’m glad that you found those exercises helpful. , and I think it’s important to emphasize that any kind of exercise or practice or skill that we practice, We’ve got to be mindful of what our intent is, right? So if we’re doing something with the intention of making sleep happen or getting rid of certain thoughts and feelings or controlling our minds, we might be setting ourselves up for a struggle because usually we can’t directly and permanently control that stuff. Martin: But with the exercises you mentioned from the course, really what they’re about is building skill in. struggling less when that stuff shows up. And it usually starts with acknowledging what we’re thinking and feeling rather than just trying to avoid it or immediately trying to fight it. Martin: like you said, being more of an observer of it, being kind to ourselves when it shows up. Dulce: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Incorporating those exercises is mindfulness into my daily life. And that helped me to regain, letting go. control over my thoughts and actions. Sometimes you can’t control them and that’s okay. Then you realize that, you’re going to get freedom and besides, or instead of controlling my thoughts, I prioritize in activities that brings me joy and stop letting thoughts about, I don’t know, insomnia or stressful activities in my day that dictate my life choices. For me, traveling was very important, was very joyful, used to be, and then it stopped being joyful. Stop, bring me joy because of my insomnia. so I learned to be more gentle first with myself and accept that occasional sleep disruptions that were part of everybody’s life. But also if you think with this, Biohacking movement that is out there, that we all need to sleep certain amount of hours at night and you have to experience and experiment with different, biohacks, like red light therapy. Dulce: I, I spend so much money in all that stuff, thinking that would fix my sleep troubles. Martin: There does seem to be this proliferation of, life hacks, and, they often come with new terminology or new slogans or new buzzwords and catchphrases. and I think often that can overcomplicate things or make it, or imply or suggest that there’s this one thing that’s going to be effective for everybody. Martin: often, unfortunately, it can just add to the confusion, and when it comes to sleep there really doesn’t need to be any confusion because sleep is like breathing, like digestion. It’s something the body wants to take care of by itself. We just need to be awake for long enough for sleep to happen. Martin: And really we need to not put any effort into making sleep happen. And then we’ve got the two perfect conditions for sleep. If we were going to summarize what the changes were that you made that you found most helpful, it sounds as though, maybe first of all, it sounds like that awareness of, the futility of adding struggle and effort on top. Martin: What your brother pointed out was that first big moment for you, just the awareness itself. And then it moved on to not chasing after sleep so much. So you’d start to go to bed a bit later rather than earlier in an effort to make. more sleep happen or a certain amount of sleep happen. You started to identify and then break down any unhelpful rules and rituals that you had around sleep. Martin: So you started to allow yourself to watch TV again. You started to allow yourself to read whatever you wanted to read again. you started to practice acknowledging the difficult thoughts and feelings that would show up, making space for them, being more of an observer of them, maybe being kind to yourself when things felt difficult to, and practicing ways that you might experience being awake at night, dealing with all the thoughts and feelings that can come with that with a little bit less struggle. Martin: Refocusing your attention during the day when your mind started to pull you away and started to worry or think about what the next night might be like, or what you should try next, or this is never going to work, you should give up. Just acknowledging that and refocusing, bringing yourself back to the present moment with some kindness, refocusing on where you are, what you’re doing. Martin: And, Doing what matters to you, so your actions served you. They didn’t serve your insomnia anymore. So everything you did was because that was important and meaningful to you, rather than important and meaningful for that little gremlin on your shoulder with the name of insomnia. does, that feel like a good summary of what your plan of action was? Dulce: it was perfect. Yes. That’s exactly what I’ve been doing and nothing have been done overnight. So it’s being. a journey. You have to go, you have to be patient with yourself and allow things to, to do by themself, to let things go with the flow and calm down. And because people, and that is something that I also noticed On the forum, your forum. Dulce: some people are super desperate. They want things for tomorrow. They want things be, they want results. overnight and that’s not possible. imagine how many years you’ve been struggling with this situation. And if you want results for tomorrow, probably that is a reason why you’re not sleeping. Dulce: Because you are focused all the time in that anxiety. So instead of focusing on your insomnia, start focusing on letting things go, letting your anxiety be. Observe it and be gentle with yourself. so yeah, you, summarized perfectly the way that I’ve been, following those, steps. But I didn’t even think about the steps themselves. Dulce: I only follow the process. I trust the process. I trust you and thank you. Yes. Thank you. I don’t know what I would done without my brother. Telling me at the beginning that day and opening my eyes. that I was just focusing in things that really didn’t matter. but that pushed me to find your course. Dulce: I actually found, I think that I shared this with you that I was about to follow other course. it’s, it includes different tests, hormonal tests and, different biomarkers, neurotransmitters. And I was like, really? Do I really need this? it’s too much. It’s just giving me even more anxiety, but thanks God I found. Dulce: your podcast. I found two podcasts. So it was like in between two. And I said, no, this is what my heart says. And yeah, I, follow it. I trust the process. And here I am. Martin: I appreciate the, credit that you give me, but really, you did all the work. I can provide the information, no one’s gonna change their relationship with sleep just by consuming information. Martin: Really what matters is acting on that information. and that’s, the hard part. Because change is difficult, change is scary, change is unpredictable. And like you touched upon, It makes sense that we want this fixed, right now. I want, and I wish I had that magic wand in my back pocket that I could just wave and everyone would just sleep perfectly tonight and never experience anxiety at night or any of the other thoughts and feelings that come with insomnia. Martin: But we can’t. we can have this outcome goal in mind. But we can’t make that outcome happen through effort. What we can do is focus on the process of moving toward that outcome. And we can control that process in a way because it’s action based. So like you touched upon, what matters is making those changes, taking that, making that commitment to consistent action that move you towards the outcome that you want. Martin: And it does take time. There’s no certainty in terms of the timeline, and there’s always ups and downs along the way. There can be patches where it feels like we’re doing great, and it’s all behind us, and then we have a difficult night again, and we feel like we’re back to square one. But we’re not. It’s just a case of continuing to practice if we feel that this new approach is getting us closer to where we want to be. If we’re noticing that, yeah, this is better than the alternative, which is struggle, fighting, avoiding, engaging in actions that aren’t realigned with who we are and who we want to be. How long would you say that it took for you to get to that point where you felt like you just weren’t engaged in that constant struggle anymore, the insomnia, sleep, the thoughts and feelings that come with being awake, were losing their power and influence over your life? Dulce: It’s hard to tell, but I would say it started Doing certain effect in my mind since the first week, even though I, was struggling, I was still struggling with insomnia, I was waking up in the middle of the night, I was not sleeping the first week and not the following week, not probably one month, but at least my anxiety was lower, was not that high, and since the first week sleep window helped me to give me freedom. So that freedom allowed me to decrease my anxiety level. So from the first week. And then I would say that the second month, I only had two or three nights with insomnia, but I didn’t want to pay attention on them. Dulce: I didn’t focus on them. And the third month, I didn’t have not even one insomnia, night. Not even one. I was waking up in the middle of the night, but that’s not insomnia. It’s part of your normal, sleep pattern. Everybody wakes up in the middle of the night. It’s just that some people, is more aware of it. Dulce: And especially people that struggle with insomnia. They think that is part of the insomnia, but it’s not. It’s just that some people come back to sleep in 30 minutes, some people in 10 minutes, some people one. But yeah, I would say the third, month, I was in a wake or I, like for long, longer periods of time. Yeah. Like three, three months. Martin: does this mean that now every single night is fantastic and perfect and you never have any difficult nights or never spend much time awake at night? Dulce: no, Of course, sometimes I’m awake and, I was sharing the hormonal information a lot that when we are in our fertile, window, or years, women struggle more during luteal phase compared to, follicular, your estrogens are higher. So when they are higher, sometimes you can sleep. Dulce: you can fall asleep deeper and that’s okay. And when you’re in the luteal phase, your hormones fluctuates more, especially because progesterone wakes you up a little bit more during the night or, gives you hot flashes. Like when you are in menopause also, you’re gonna keep struggling with that, with hot flashes. Dulce: So you wake up and yeah, that’s a little bit hot. That’s okay. And just took the blankets out of myself. Just let it cool. That’s fine. And if I don’t sleep, if I can’t sleep, I just grab a book. I read a little bit and then I go back to sleep. That, is my life nowadays, but I don’t struggle with that situation. I don’t follow any rules. Martin: It’s so insightful, just what you shared there, just this acknowledgement that, yeah, there’s going to be some difficult nights from time to time. Sometimes there might be a reason for it, like the hormonal fluctuations. Sometimes there might not be, but your response now or your relationship to that is completely different. Martin: Like it’s not consuming you anymore, consuming your attention. It’s not this giant magnet from a Looney Tunes cartoon pulling you away from the life you want to live. You’re just acknowledging what’s happened and then you’re getting on with your life. It’s not throwing you around so much anymore. Martin: It’s not a big focus. It’s not a big concern or an obstacle or a problem anymore on those occasional nights when insomnia decides to temporarily show up again. Dulce: Yes, yeah, I no longer obsess over the number of hours of sleep. I get and focus more on the quality sometimes of my sleep and how I feel when I wake up. my husband used to be a better sleeper. He is a good sleeper, of course, but sometimes he wakes up and he says, Oh, I don’t know. I didn’t sleep. Oh, I don’t feel restful. Dulce: And I say, I always feel restful, but it’s so rarely when I don’t feel restful, even if I just slept five hours. I feel restful and I feel with a lot of energy because I’m focusing on other things. Martin: And on that note, something that I hear a lot from people is once they feel like they’re struggling less with being awake at night, maybe their sleep duration hasn’t even changed. Maybe they’re still spending a lot of time awake at night, but when they’re able to recognize that they’re struggling less with that wakefulness when it shows up, they feel like they’ve got more energy the next day, even though they’re not getting necessarily getting more sleep just yet. Martin: But that absence of the struggle and the battle that takes place that might have been taking place for hours throughout the night is freeing up so much more energy. And that’s reflected in how we can feel the next day. Dulce: Yeah. Sometimes we want to be perfect, but perfection is not attainable and embracing imperfection, once you embrace that imperfection that allow you to find peace within you. Martin: I love that. I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out of your day to come on and show your story. I do have one last question for you, which I like to put in at the end of all these discussions. Martin: And it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve just tried everything, what would you that they’re beyond help, that they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. What would you say to them? Dulce: to anyone struggling with insomnia, I want to say there is hope. you don’t have to navigate this journey by yourself. sometimes we need guidance and support to realize that there are other people struggling with the same situations as you, and you can reclaim or let that control over your sleep and your life can get better, light. I would say trust the process and believe in your body’s ability to find balance again because your body is wise and it may take time and patience. But healing your body and your mind, especially your mind, because there’s nothing wrong with your body. I know people that have cancer. I’m a nutritionist. Dulce: I work with elderly people. My patients, I have younger patients, but I also have older and, I work with over 65 years old people that are struggling with so many situations, cancer, diabetes, whatever you think, metabolic diseases, and they still, they can sleep, they still sleep. So if they can sleep while you’re not, while you cannot sleep, everything is in your mind and healing is possible. And I would say take the course. Don’t think about it. Just take it and trust the process and trust you. Martin: Thanks again for coming on to the podcast dulce it’s really appreciated. Dulce: Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. and thanks for, doing this, Martin. You are doing a great job, for this world. Martin: That means a lot. Thank you. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Note: Dulce is an holistic nutritionist and can be found at Dulce Dagda Nutrición (website in Spanish). Please share this episode!

Neseret’s experience with insomnia began when she tried tapering off an antidepressant she had been taking for 13 years. Every time she tried to get off the medication she found herself unable to sleep. Although a move from shift work to regular daytime hours and being more active during the day helped to improve Neseret’s energy levels, she still couldn’t make the final leap to being medication free because she was petrified of going without sleep. Finding Insomnia Coach and the stories shared on the podcast gave Neseret a newfound confidence that she could taper off the medication. She had hope. Neseret began a supervised medical taper while practicing new skills and habits that helped her move away from struggling with sleep and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that often come with insomnia. She stopped putting pressure on herself to generate a certain amount of sleep. Whenever she found herself struggling during the night, she would engage in another activity so she had an alternative to struggle. She stopped trying to control sleep. Neseret’s journey was not easy. There were ups and downs. There were setbacks. And yet, today, she is off the medication and sleep is no longer a problem or an obstacle to her ability to live the life she wants to live. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, Neseret, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast. Neseret: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Martin: Let’s start right at the beginning. Can you tell us when your sleep problems first began and what do you think caused your initial issues with sleep? Neseret: The first time that I experienced insomnia was when I was trying to taper off of psychiatric medications. Neseret: and one of those medications being an antidepressant that actually, is supposed to help with sleep. And initially I was, diagnosed with depression and while I was exhibiting some hypothyroid symptoms, which is a medical condition that mimics a psychiatric, symptoms. And I was also in burnout, from being a psychiatric nurse and working in acute care. Neseret: And I was placed on a hypothyroid medication and an antidepressant, and I had an adverse reaction to both of them. And within a few weeks, I became manic. and ended up being, diagnosed with antidepressant induced bipolar disorder. So I had sensitivities to medications to begin with, and this, antidepressant I was put on, I was on it for about 13 years, called Mirtazapine, and it’s pretty heavy duty, and I was told that it would help with mood, anxiety, and sleep, and appetite. Neseret: pretty powerful, and I realized, over time that I was, there was periods I attempted to get off of it because there was quite a bit of side effects, sedation, brain fog, and sleep problems. weight gain, lots of increased sleep. So I would sleep for 12, 13, 14 hours. And, and so I attempted to get off of it several times. Neseret: And that’s when I discovered I, I went into insomnia and I had never experienced that before. And just to give you a con, timeline. I was 30 when I was diagnosed and placed on the antidepressant for the first time. Prior to that, I never really had any issues with sleep. no insomnia. I, never had insomnia. Neseret: And so when I attempted to taper off of this medication, was when I experienced like real insomnia. I’m talking about zero sleep, sometimes maybe one to two hours of very light sleep. And it was incredibly, unsettling. And and that was the first time that I realized, oh my goodness, this is what people go through, and this is what insomnia is. Martin: So how long ago was this? Martin: You mentioned it was you’re about 30 years old. I don’t want to make any assumptions about how old you are now. So I’m just curious, how long ago this was. Neseret: It’s okay. I am 44 right now. And, when I first was placed on the antidepressant, I was, it was in 2010. And, And then I was on it for a while because I was struggling with my mood and, I didn’t realize at the time that I was actually having an adverse reaction. Neseret: and there was several times along the way, along the path that I attempted to get off of, the antidepressant. And, I couldn’t. I kept going back on it. Because my sleep would be the last thing that came and I would just, wouldn’t sleep for days on end and I was just, I couldn’t get off of it. And that was actually, I was on multiple medications it wasn’t just the antidepressant, there was another medications that I was on. Neseret: And I was able to taper off of that, but I was absolutely terrified to get off of mirtazapine. just because of, yeah, the impact. Martin: Do you feel it was that, it was specifically that one medication that it was every time you tried to move away from that medication that you had experienced the insomnia? Neseret: Oh, for sure. Mirtazapine is known for being incredibly sedative. but it also, and yeah, I was, I felt like for those years, I always say, figuratively, I was asleep, not only because I was on a cocktail of medications, but I would come home from, at the time I was working full time, from an eight hour shift, from seven in the morning until three, and by the time I’d get home, I was so exhausted, I would just lay down on the couch and sleep for a few hours, then get up and do some, a little bit of work I have to do, and then I would be in bed probably by eight o’clock. Neseret: I was exhausted all the time. And if I could, I probably would sleep even longer. So it just felt like I was sleeping my life away, and, I wanted to get off of it. That was just one reason that I wanted to get off of it. There was other reasons, side effects, and this is the case for a lot of psychiatric medications, or even sleep medications, specifically, that are prescribed in psychiatry. Neseret: there’s many medications that are pretty powerful that are prescribed to help people sleep and have, very serious side effects. a lot of them have, cause metabolic syndrome, which is like weight gain. they do something to your blood sugar. usually people end up being pre diabetes. Neseret: they interfere with your blood pressure. just really compromised your physical health a lot of the times and mirtazapine did that for me. So the sleep was just one thing, but there was other issues as well. Martin: Yeah. It sounds like you were really caught in between these two extremes of a whole load of sleep, excessive sleep, or the alternative was what felt like just no sleep at all. Martin: That felt like they were your two options at the time and you were right in the middle of that. Neseret: Absolutely. Yeah. Martin: I’m curious, you, mentioned that nowadays you’re a psychiatric registered nurse, is that correct? Neseret: I’m a registered nurse in training, but I have practiced psychiatric nursing, so that’s a specialty area for 17 years. Neseret: And, yeah. I actually decided to end my career not too long ago, and decided to do coaching instead and consulting, and start my own business. And there was, there’s reasons for that, but, one of them being burnout. but yes, that’s what I practiced, for 17 years. Martin: So were you practicing whilst you were in this really difficult period of wanting to get away from the medication. Martin: And if so, was there any support you could draw upon, like from your professional background or advice that you could lean on to help you during this struggle? Neseret: That’s a really good question and very interesting one. as you may already know, there’s a lot of stigma around mental health concerns. Neseret: And, yes, the 13 years were, at the same time that I was in nursing. So it’s interesting, it’s coincided, I was taking care of, my clients. And I was also experiencing my own, symptoms going through that process. And I, people experience stigma nowadays, just fear that they’ll be judged. Neseret: And I felt like there was like a double stigma with being a psychiatric nurse. I felt like I should figure this out. I should know how to handle this. And so there was like a shame around that, being a psychiatric nurse and also having mental health symptoms. And the interesting thing is, we are human beings, mental health professionals. Neseret: And, we have, everybody has their own trauma and their own challenges in life. And, we, there’s such a thing called vicarious trauma, which is basically witnessing other people’s traumas. And so as mental health professionals, people come to us and they share and they unburden and tell us what’s been going on with them. Neseret: And so I experienced a lot throughout my career, I would say about every few years, burnout. And it was because I was hearing, heartbreaking stories of people, which many of them research shows now that trauma usually precedes mental health and addictions issues. And so we’re just as vulnerable sometimes, I think, even more vulnerable. Neseret: And I think mental health professionals are one of the most traumatized people. And so I think that I had the usual resources of, workplace therapy and this and that, but I never really felt comfortable to share things with people. I felt that I needed to figure this out and sort it out on my own, which is not the best way to go. Neseret: but I think that is one thing that people struggle with when they are suffering. I’m sure people, when they arrived, to you, they’ve already suffered for years and years. even if it is when, with insomnia or whatever’s going on with them. So there’s just this sense of not wanting to reach out for help because of fear of judgment and, stigma. Martin: I appreciate you coming on and sharing this. It sounds like you’re able to be a bit kinder to yourself too, and more willing to just open up and talk about it. So I really appreciate, you sharing that in an, open way. So thank you. Neseret: Yeah, no, thanks. I think, I agree with you about the self compassion and, it’s still not easy to do it, but I feel that I want to share my story and my journey so that if there’s somebody out there who is struggling and going through the same path that they have some hope, at least that’s what I got from watching the interviews that you’ve done as well. Neseret: So I do appreciate what you do. Just giving people that space to share and. help, others Martin: to just to return that appreciation, the podcast wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for guests like yourself being willing to come on and share their experience. And a lot of that experience contains a lot of struggle. Martin: and maybe a lot of self judgment upon reflection. And it can be difficult to talk about these things. And yeah, I appreciate you coming on and being willing to talk about that. Martin: So you’re at this situation where staying on the medication is associated with sleeping your life away. Coming off the medication is associated with not going to get any sleep. how did you, at first, when you first realized that you were stuck in that really difficult position, what did you do? Martin: How did you respond? Were you looking for like alternative medications or alternative ways of addressing your sleep so you could move away from the medication? what were your first steps on that journey like? Neseret: I was definitely felt like I was stuck for many years and just having to put up with the side effects of the medications and then trying to figure out a way to just figure out a way for me to get proper sleep and have just a healthy lifestyle. Neseret: So I was looking for different ways and I believe in a holistic approach to healing in general. A few years ago, I decided to give up shift work and, got just a daytime job. So I was getting up every morning at the same time at five o’clock and that’s one of the things that you teach in terms of anchoring your sleep. Neseret: And, and so I was just working Monday to Friday and I noticed throughout the year like something shifted from me. Like I felt better. My energy was a tiny little bit better and I just liked that schedule. And, so I was also trying different things like, walking a lot, like hiking five to 10 kilometers a day. Neseret: I was, doing intermittent fasting. I was, doing some mindfulness, exercises. So I started really exploring all these different things. And, I eventually also did the ketogenic diet for, mental health. And between all of those things, the last thing was I had tapered off of, Multiple medications and the only one that was left was the mirtazapine and I was terrified. Neseret: And so I was researching for sleep and that’s when I came across your information. And because I just thought, you know what, do I have to be on this medication for the rest of my life, even though I have all these other side effects? And I was just like, I don’t know how to get off of it. And I don’t know how to sleep. Neseret: It was just like, I was just petrified. I was just like, I, don’t know how to do this and I can’t do this and I don’t want to stay on this medication. And so I would say it was like a seven year journey altogether when I started to really look at this holistic approach. And the sleep piece I knew was like foundational and I needed to sort through that and this medication wasn’t helping me. Neseret: like you said, it was just like being stuck in a rock and a hard place, that expression. And so when I came across your information, I was just like, Oh my God. Okay. I think I have, there’s hope for me, but yeah, that was basically the journey that, I went through. Martin: Wow. So you knew that you wanted to be off this medication. Martin: And At the same time, you knew that if you just remove that medication or tape it off that medication, the sleep issues would show up again. So in the meantime, you’re looking at all these different ways of creating the best possible conditions for sleep or just setting yourself up for good sleep by Changing your job so you had a more consistent schedule, so you’re working the day shift, doing hiking, exploring mindfulness, different diets and different fasting, but you still knew that even with all that ongoing experimentation, there’s still that, what is it, what’s the expression, like the 300 pound gorilla in the room, which is the medication. Neseret: Yes. Martin: what was it when, you came across my work that you mentioned, that stood out and you thought, ah, there’s, something here, there’s there’s either an approach I haven’t tried, or there’s something here that resonates with me. What is it that stood out and made you think, ah, there’s, an option here, or there’s, a new way forward here? Neseret: When I came across your work, you just had a way of explaining things that was so straightforward. And I liked your energy, like I’m sensitive to people’s energies, and I just felt like you were very grounded and down to earth. Neseret: And you presented the information in a way that, That was so practical. and then listening to the podcast interviews, I really love hearing stories of people and just seeing their journey throughout and that transformation. And I just felt, I thought, okay, I’m going to, binge watch everything here and learn as much as I can. Neseret: And that was really the information that gave me the confidence to finally taper off of this medication that I was, yeah, I became dependent on basically. I felt like I had the confidence. I was just like, I think I can do this now. and yeah, it was just incredibly helpful and liberating to, to actually have hope. It’s just Oh my goodness. Okay. I can do this now. Martin: I get a lot of questions from people that feel ready to make changes to their approach to sleep, but they might be on a medication, various medications. Martin: And a common question I get is, do I need to? My goal is to be off the medication. Do I need to be off the medication to start making these changes? And my answer is always no. As far as I’m concerned, the medication isn’t something that we really explore because I’m not a doctor. that’s a discussion for you to have with your doctor. Martin: But really what, when I’m working with clients, we’re looking purely at behavior change. We’re looking at identifying current behaviors that aren’t really working. And, Exploring how we might be able to change them into behaviors that might be more helpful. Not only for sleep, but to move us closer to the life we want to live independently of sleep. Martin: And so because we’re focused really on actions and practicing new actions and behaviors, forming new habits, really their skills. And we can practice new skills regardless of whether or not they’re helpful. medication or not. I’m curious, you mentioned that when you started to consume my content, you said that it gave you the confidence to start that tapering process. Martin: Was it You worked through all the content and then you felt, okay, I’m ready to make these changes and start tapering immediately. Or did you start making the changes and then taper? I’m just curious, in the context there. Neseret: This is a general guideline for psychiatric medication, especially if someone is on a prescribed psychiatric medication for sleep. Neseret: Tapering in general needs to be approached. not lightly, like you really need to be very careful because some of the, withdrawal effects you can have serious impact. And that was the case with mirtazapine for me. So I really have to approach it with, so there is, I agree with you. There was like a psychological dependence and the, behavioral stuff that I had to learn, but there was also, a biological, chemical dependence. It’s one thing if you were just taking even melatonin or some sort of like herb or supplement. But I think when it comes to a more powerful medications like psychiatric medications, that tapering process to really needs to be approached with caution. And, I actually had to go through a compound pharmacy to make sure that I was tapering, and work with the pharmacist and a family physician. Neseret: So it was a medically supervised taper. and to go very slowly because, there was withdrawal, effects. but what I did was I first went through your information and got the education piece and all the different, strategies and, like you said, behavioral changes, but I also realized, yes, it’s, it’s an, Attitude change and how you approach not just sleep, but like you were saying, life in terms of, being patient and, not expecting results right away. Neseret: being able to have some flexibility in your thinking and approach, even like when you’re not being able to sleep at night, get out of your bed and just do something else for a little bit, as opposed to those things, were really helpful. And, So I first got, I think it depends on, for everyone that’s different and how they approach it. Neseret: But for me, it was incredibly helpful for, to first go through your program, go through your information and have that, because I was just so terrified that wouldn’t have been a good experience for me to go through that taper. So your information is actually what gave me the confidence to go through the taper. Neseret: Because, I felt like now I had knowledge and tools that I can do this. And that emotional, arousal of Oh my God, I am doing something, it’s not going to work, was not helpful for sleep anyways. So for me it was first go through your information and feel that, have that knowledge, have the tools, feel confident, and then went through the taper. Martin: When I get that question, that’s largely my response. if, we can recognize that our approach to sleep is something we want to change and we’re taking medication. If we realize our approach to sleep is something we want to change, why wait? We don’t need to wait until we’re off medication or until we’re tapering medication to make changes to our approach to sleep if we feel our current approach isn’t working, right? Martin: I think a lot of people come to me and they believe that they’ve got to be off medication for any of this to be worthwhile, but I don’t think that’s the case. Although everyone is the expert on themselves and it sounds as though what you’re saying from your own experience that wasn’t the case for you either. Martin: You found it helpful to just start exploring this new approach, maybe getting some practice in with a few changes and then it was a decision you made a little bit further down the line. Okay, now I feel ready to talk to my doctor and come up with a specific tapering off plan at that time. Neseret: Oh yeah, I actually, recommend all of my clients that I work with your program because I feel like it’s, such a, anybody who’s experiencing mental health and addictions issues, sleep is such a major issue. Neseret: But I also feel like your approach and things, the tools that you teach, like I said, it’s not just helpful for sleep, but it’s a way of being that is just, mindful. And. I do feel that people can benefit from that whether they’re on medication or off medication and they can implement it at any time in the process. Neseret: I just would make sure anybody who is on pretty powerful medications to take their time in the tapering process. But I agree with you in terms of that this could be implemented at any time. Just for me, this was what worked. but the sort of the teaching and the approach and the attitude, It can be helpful for anyone that is struggling with sleep at any point. Neseret: Yeah. Martin: And I appreciate the emphasis, too, that it’s important that if anyone is taking medication to talk to their doctor first, to talk about their plans, what they want to do, and to really work with, their physicians before making any changes. Now you’re able to look back, what do you feel that some of the, New approaches specifically to sleep that you made, or changes you made to how you approach sleep that helped you move away from the struggle? Martin: What do you feel were some of the really helpful changes that you made? Neseret: One of the first big ones was I had this idea that I needed eight hours of sleep to just function properly. And I remember the first night I was completely tapered off and I was a little anxious and I, I actually slept for three hours and I got up and I was so excited and I was just like, oh my goodness, like I fell asleep on my own and I stayed asleep for three hours and I told my partner that and the next morning I was so excited and it was just like, I haven’t done this like in 13 years. Neseret: Just to be able to sleep and stay asleep on my own, and it was like, just a huge accomplishment. I feel really rested and I am not obsessing about Oh, I need nine hours or seven hours or, eight hours. Neseret: as I just pay attention to my body and see how I feel, how my energy is and I’m okay with it. So that was a big one. Just this sort of like cultural conditioning and, idea of how much sleep somebody needs. And that was like a huge thing. and also another one was just that when you’re not able to sleep to get out of bed and, just do something else until you’re tired again. Neseret: So just having that flexibility in your mind. You’re not forcing anything. That’s a really good sort of, life principle. It’s not just for sleep. Because we tend to just push against something when we’re struggling with whatever it is as opposed to just maybe hitting the pause button and stepping back and being like, okay, just be in a more surrendered state. Neseret: And so that was another thing that I really appreciated about your teaching. Martin: So it sounds as though It was almost like a mindset shift where you weren’t holding yourself to this standard of I need to get a certain amount or a certain type of sleep. and when that shift happened, maybe you were then in turn putting less pressure on yourself and maybe being a little bit less critical or self judgmental on any times or based on whatever happened from night to night. Neseret: Yes. Yeah, that was huge. And along those lines too, you mentioned that sleep is like a natural human function that all of us just like breathing. We can do that. Our bodies can manage to do that. And so that was huge because I think when you are become dependent on a medication or a supplement or something outside of you to sleep, you get to that place where you’re thinking, I need something outside of me to get some sleep. Neseret: And so it was so freeing to realize, you know what, I, my body has its own wisdom and I can fall asleep and I, I can stay asleep on my own. And so that was so important to realize. and there was, I remember in one of your emails you sent out, There was a quote about a person who was saying that when you give someone, a pill or something outside of themselves to sleep, you’re basically giving them the message that they can’t do that on their own. Neseret: And so it’s really disempowering in the end. And that is something that I feel in, psychiatry, not just with sleep, but many other medications over medicated, on multiple medications, often they give them terrible side effects. And I’m not against, completely against psychiatric medications. I think in acute crisis and in a short, brief stabilization period, even if it’s sleeping medications to reset your sleep, those can be quite helpful. Neseret: But long term people experience dependency, they experience, many unwanted effects and sometimes adverse effects and toxicity. And but also the message that, we all suffer and we all experience life challenges. And sometimes you go through stressful periods when sleep is going to be dis, disrupted. Neseret: And that is temporary and it can be resolved. And there’s many other different paths and ways of coping and dealing with it. As opposed to this immediate of I want something to be fixed right away. That’s also like that mindfulness piece that I really appreciate about all of that is just being able to be patient and find creative ways to help a person, whether it’s to improve their mental health, whether it’s like you said, to live the best life that they can to find peace of mind contentment and or get a good night’s rest. Neseret: So there’s different ways, creative ways to approach the path of healing and becoming whole. it’s not just medication and it’s not just therapy, like there’s many paths to healing. Martin: Yeah, I think you, you touched upon this word flexibility earlier as well when you were talking about, how we respond to being awake during the night, for example. Martin: There’s more than one way of responding to insomnia. And I think when we’re really caught up in the struggle, it feels like there’s only one way to respond. Martin: And that is to fight it, try and destroy it, defeat it, get rid of it once and for all. And that is completely understandable. And yet for most of us, when we reflect on our experience, I think we can realize that although the approach is understandable, it doesn’t seem to be working over the long term. Martin: And so maybe it is the fighting itself and the struggle that comes with that’s keeping us stuck where we are. so maybe there are other alternatives that we can explore. And I truly believe that no one is ever broken. It’s just so easy to get stuck and we just need to look at exploring new ways forward. Martin: And I think there’s always a new way forward even when things feel completely hopeless. Neseret: I love that. I absolutely love that because So many people I think that are struggling with insomnia or even with their mental health or with an addictions issue that’s where we get to we get a person gets to that place where they can You struggle so much for so long, you tend to lose hope and then you think, I think I’m stuck in this. Neseret: And there is such a sense of, defeat and just feeling like you don’t have anything. And so that idea of, what you’re describing to me is like surrender. to be in a surrendered place, but also, to be open, like just open to the possibility that there might be hope or there might be, help and, then being willing to look in different ways and different directions. Neseret: I think that’s where I came to in my sort of like 13 year journey, halfway through. I did come to a place where I was really losing hope. I felt I was so stuck that, and also feeling like I was a burden It was very painful. And that’s really hard to admit, but I know it is something that impacts so many people. but during that halfway place where I was starting to explore alternative and complementary and holistic approaches, That’s when I was in that place of surrender and thinking, okay, maybe, I’m trying to figure this out on my own. Neseret: But maybe there’s, a different way to look at this. Because I looked at it in one way, which is, as, my training as a psychiatric nurse, as a registered nurse, is based on western medicine and, psychiatric care, which is very much heavily reliant on the biomedical model. And that, there’s something genetic, chemical, which is, by the way, not necessarily, there’s some truth to that, but it’s not entirely true. Neseret: it was the willingness to be open to other possibilities and ways of healing, not just the one way that we know, which is diagnose, medicate, and this is it. And I think I, to some extent, bought into that. And that’s not from, my background. I’m actually originally from Ethiopia, East Africa. Neseret: And my ancestors, that’s not the way they looked at things. people were into exploring spirituality, connection, and community. my grandmother was like a herbalist. My grandfather was, a dream interpreter and a farmer. And so I come from that rich indigenous background where medication and therapy, that’s, not even, it’s looked at as one path of healing, but it’s not everything. Neseret: And so that idea, I really appreciate your teaching around that in terms of the, not fighting against something and just thinking that is the only way to solve that problem. But to actually really look at that. And that is a life principle. It’s not even like, I said, the thing that I love about the way you teach things, is that these principles are good for sleep for sure. Neseret: fantastic, but they are, have deeper implications for a human being in the way they look at life and in the way they approach life altogether, which is really beautiful. So you benefit from, getting good rest, but you also get tools to live your life in a way that actually makes sense and will help you have some peace and contentment. Martin: Again, I really appreciate just your openness and your honesty, sharing, the struggles and your thoughts that you’re having at the time when things felt hopeless, because my goodness, there’s no doubt that when things feel hopeless, it’s really difficult and it can really feel as though there’s no other options. Martin: There’s no way forward. but I think that even when things are hopeless, there’s always a way forward. It’s just that we might not be aware of what that way is yet. and it, in a way, It’s almost the signal of an opportunity because when we feel hopeless it shows that maybe what we’ve been doing up to this point isn’t the right approach for us. Martin: It’s that, whatever it is that’s leading us to feel hopeless isn’t the right thing for us, and that’s okay. Even, it might be, it might, in air quotations, work for 99 percent of people, but that doesn’t mean it should work for you. It just means that we need to explore ways forward that are right for you, and everyone is different, and I think there’s always opportunity to move forward. Martin: new approach you were exploring was helpful for sleep, but also it seemed to offer you benefits in other ways related to living the life you want to live, and developing some growth or some new other skills in living your daytime life. Martin: doing things that matter to you. I’m living a more rich, more and more rewarding life. Can you dig a little bit deeper there? Neseret: Yeah. so I think what happened was, I told you that I was, work is really important and meaningful for me personally. Neseret: And, I remember at the time I came across your work, I was heading down to burnout, which was a long, a long time ago. And, I was actually looking for ways to do my work in a more meaningful and creative way. And so it’s interesting when I came across your information and I saw how you are approaching your work and the service that you’re providing and in the way you’re providing it. Neseret: I remember thinking, wow, this is really fantastic. And I would love to, do something like this, but I’m in this path that I’ve been on for 17 years and, I loved doing what I was doing. I was always been fascinated with sort of human psychology and loved working with people. I felt I was privileged to do what I do. Neseret: just giving, creating a safe space for people to share what was going on for them. But I was very discontent with how. because of the many challenges that are in the system and that it didn’t align with who I was and what I believed in, terms of how to approach people in distress. and so I wanted to do something different and I just remember, and I’ve always had that in the back of my mind. Neseret: And when I came across your work, and I’ve come across other people as well, but Your, information really deeply resonated with me because sleep is something that is such a major issue for individuals, many of the individuals that I’ve worked with and for myself. And so I was looking at it not only because, from a perspective of a client in terms of your work, I was looking at it from, as a clinician as well, who wanted to branch away from the traditional and conventional system And do something different. Neseret: And so I thought I need to learn something from Martin and see what he’s doing. And maybe this is possible for me as well. And so there was a huge major decision that I made at that point. It wasn’t too long ago. I’m talking about Oh, about, October, November of last year, just, and, that was something that was a huge decision, not only because I had this period of stability and I had implemented so many things that are holistic and I was able to put a condition that is considered, I was told, was chronic, lifelong, and I had to be on medication for years. Neseret: And I would need, medication to help me sleep and eat and all of that. And I was able to put that into remission. And. Bipolar disorder and remission are not never in the same sentence in psychiatry. And so that, that inspiration came and I thought, okay, I’m going to do this. And so that was a, I made a major decision to leave, a 17 year career and start my own business. Neseret: So not only did you help me with my sleep, but you also inspired me in the way you are doing your business. to be like, you know what, maybe there’s a way for me to use everything that I have learned and gone through personally and professionally and bring that into, doing, and, creating something, an alternative approach for others to give them an option as well. Neseret: So I, I made those two decisions, major, shifts and changes and thank you. I want to say thank you so much. Martin: I can provide some information and maybe act as a guide, but really you’re the one that makes the changes and makes the decisions. I hope that you’re able to give yourself like 99 percent of the credit because you’re the one that did all the work. Martin: but it sounds as though now you’re able to look back on this whole experience that and you’re able to reflect on what you’ve learned, how you’ve grown, how you’ve changed, what the transformation has been like, that it’s felt quite empowering to you and that sense of empowerment has got you enthusiastic to explore what you can do with that, what you can do with that period of growth that you’ve experienced and maybe live a life that’s more aligned with who you are or who you want to be. Neseret: Oh, absolutely. And that’s been a huge blessing. And it was terrifying at first, to leave something that was so familiar and I have been identified with for so long, but it also, I had that desire to find something, a path that was more aligned with who I was. And also, I felt limited in what I could offer people as a psych nurse because in the traditional system, like I said, there’s only a couple of different options that people have. Neseret: And so for me to, now, as a coach and can, and I had started my own company, I have, a YouTube channel that, I, create videos for and, it’s a, major shift, but it does feel like, it’s freeing, and also it allows more creativity for me, and, I had to also be in a surrendered place there because, there’s a lot of, uncertainty and the unknown in making that transition. Neseret: And so again, those mindset, things that you mentioned like surrender and flexibility and maybe even just sitting with the unknown and, uncertainty and being okay with it. just the same as when you’re like wake up in the middle of the night at 2 a. m. and you have anxiety or fear or you can’t sleep for whatever reason. Neseret: You just accept that, okay, this is what’s happening right now, and we’re gonna just be with it. Maybe there’s something that can be done, and maybe there isn’t. But either way, not to make it into a huge problem, but to just go with the flow for the moment, and then out of that will come whatever the next, the right step is going to be. Neseret: And it, those principles that you teach about sleep are actually really have a lot of application in many ways. so yeah, I am really grateful that I have my health, my, I’m completely tapered off of all medication, psychiatric medications. I am no longer experiencing any symptoms of depression or hypomania. Neseret: And, my sleep is good. I, My energy is good. I sleep about six hours. So it’s incredible to have so many hours to work with every day and to do different things like enjoy with family and work and, read and just go for nature walks and all those things. it’s just amazing to have not to be sleeping two thirds of your life. Neseret: And also not sleeping and not having any sleep. So it’s just to find that balance and, also to. Help support people through that process as well and give them an option, an alternative to the traditional conventional system. it’s, been amazing. Like I, and like I said, I, every client that I have, I’m like, you have to talk to Martin Martin: I appreciate that. Were there any other changes that you made or practiced during this process that you’re able to reflect on and you think, yeah, that was really helpful for me. Neseret: Yeah, there’s so many things, that can be really helpful. I think the first step is just, knowledge. I think that piece is real, really critical. If you can educate yourself about, this work and I spend some time listening to the stories. That’s huge. Neseret: That part is really critical. Knowledge is power. And then the next thing would be, The willingness to commit to something that is going to take time. Like a lot of the times we seem to want something to be sorted out right away, like a quick fix. And I would say this work is not a quick fix. I would say this was about, for me, starting to give up shift work that was like a couple of years back. Neseret: And then. coming across your work and then tapering off of medication. So it was a process. I’m not saying it’s going to take you a year or two years, but you need to give yourself some time and have realistic expectations of what you can achieve during that time. That in the beginning, it’s going to be a little bit of up and down until you get to a place where you can have that stability and consistency with sleep. Neseret: So to just, be willing to have those incremental shifts over time. And I think that applies for our health in general and for many things that are worthwhile in life, that nothing happens overnight. And there might be some, growing pains and process as you go through. But if you’re willing to stick with it and learn and be patient with yourself, and like you said, have self compassion. Neseret: I think that’s huge. because a lot of the times, we’re too hard on ourselves, and that is not helping. That’s not helpful to us. So if we can develop like a way to just relate and be more compassionate and soothing, self soothing as well, then It just makes that process a little bit easier and also To be able to be willing to reach out for help and support. Neseret: I know like I said, I wasn’t very good at it over the years and I felt because I was a psychiatric nurse mental health professional then I should have my stuff and I shouldn’t need help and also sometimes you feel like there’s that divide but I realized over time I was like i’m no different than any of my clients. Neseret: They’re human beings. I’m human being they suffer. I suffer You we all don’t want to suffer. So it’s just I had to come to that place where I’m just like, yeah, I, need to figure this out and then to be able to help others as well. and so I guess my point was, don’t be afraid to reach out for help and support, like your information. Neseret: I think you are doing amazing work. if you’re really struggling it it helps to have someone who has, who knows, who has knowledge and who can guide you through that process, and and there’s no shame in asking for help and support. I think as human beings, we thrive with encouragement and support and the, thing about hiring a coach or working with someone who is, who knows what they’re doing is that it cuts off so much of your struggle and it shortens that time. Neseret: And so it makes it much, much easier than having to struggle on your own. Martin: You touched upon the ups and downs, which I’m really grateful for because it’s never plain sailing, right? it can be easy for, People to listen to these podcast episodes, and unless we specifically talk about it, to believe that progress should be linear, it should just be good night after good night or get better and better but there are always ups and downs. Martin: There are always setbacks. Setbacks are a part of progress. How did you deal with them whilst you were tapering away from the medication and practicing this new approach to sleep? So when these difficult nights maybe show back up again, how did you respond to them in a way that kept you moving forward? Neseret: I was, so grateful to, even have an hour of sleep or two hours of sleep on my own. It was just like everything was a win after that. Like the fact that I was able to just fall asleep and stay asleep. That was a huge thing. And then any, anything else after that, it was just like, just a victory. Neseret: I love reading. So if I wake up and I’m not able to go back to sleep, I just get up and do some work. And then usually within a couple hours, I’ll feel tired again and I’ll go back. Neseret: And, I just, like you said before, I just didn’t want to make sleep into a problem anymore. I don’t want, it’s something that has, we need as human beings and that’s okay, I accept that. But let it be however way it looks. And that’s again, our life as much as we like to for it to be a certain way, like I didn’t see myself, my career necessarily ending in the way that it did after two decades of investing all my time and energy. Neseret: I can just stay bitter and unhappy about the whole thing, or I can just shift and pivot and do something else and be grateful for the experience that I’ve had, even what I went through personally or whatever suffering that came out of that. That I could use that now to make a difference in the lives of others. Neseret: I, like I said, it’s there’s such, so many parallels between sleep and our approach and attitude towards it and the way we live our lives as well. Which is, again, just being mindful and being grateful. So yeah, if I sleep four or five hours or three hours, I’m grateful for that. I’m just like, okay, I got some sleep. Neseret: I don’t make it into a problem anymore. Yeah, it’s not, sleep doesn’t occupy my mind as much. Now, as much as it did way, before, Martin: I think there’s always an opportunity to notice a glimmer, even if it’s just a glimmer of positivity or hope, and to just tease that out and be more aware of it. And I think it’s a skill and it requires practice, but the more we can practice looking for the positives, because our mind doesn’t normally go there by itself. We have to make that conscious effort. It really can help change our mindset. when we focus on our successes or we reflect on other times in our life when we’ve got through adversity, when we think about what strengths we have and how we can use these to get through these difficult periods and when we have less expectations. around things like sleep, like I should get, or I need to get, I have to get, I must get. We put so much burden on ourselves to perform in a certain way, which in other areas of life, maybe that can motivate us. But when it comes to sleep, Usually what happens is the more we try to make a certain amount or type of sleep happen, the more difficult it can become. Martin: so just look, that mindset shift is I think it’s a common theme or a common thread that runs through these podcast episodes that a lot of people identify with. It’s almost like the first thing that changed, not before even sleep started to change, was the mindset change. how we interpret. Martin: what happens from night to night and what our relationship with sleep is like tends to change. And then once that becomes more entrenched, once sleep starts to lose its power and influence over our lives, that’s when the body maybe takes over and is more likely to start generating more sleep or better quality sleep or more consistent sleep. Neseret: Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think that little bit of appreciation goes a long way. Martin: You touched upon this career change that you embarked upon. So it sounds like you’re in the coaching field yourself. what kind of clients are you looking to take on or what kind of clients do you help? Neseret: So the clients that I work with are individuals who are struggling with their mental health. Neseret: they may or may not have a diagnosed, a sort of a diagnosis. many of them are on medications, but they don’t have to be. Okay. and I work with individuals, adults, and at risk youth, and their parents. And, I basically help advocate for them to, navigate the traditional system, because I have a lot of knowledge around that. Neseret: But I also, have taken a course in metabolic psychiatry, and, believe in a holistic approach. So I help people if they want to Approach that path with, less medication, go through a process of reducing significantly or tapering. I connect with their clinicians and work with that, as well as helping them implement the ketogenic diet and for mental health and, addressing all the different aspects, of their health, not just, lifestyle changes, like making sure that they have proper sleep, reducing stress, being mindful, exploring spirituality, whatever that means to them, creativity, meaningful work, like looking at it from many different sides. Martin: Where can people find you if they’re interested in learning more about what you do? Neseret: so I have a YouTube channel, Nesra Bemiant, and I’m also on Twitter. Martin: Great. I’ll be sure to put links to those in the show notes for anyone that wants to check out more about the work you do and your philosophy and your approach. yeah. I, really appreciate the time that you’ve taken out your day to come on, Neseret. I do have one last question for you, which I would like to pose and see what insights you can share with us. Martin: and it’s this. If someone is listening to this and they just feel that they’ve tried everything, they’re beyond help, they Just cannot move away from the insomnia struggle. What would you say to them? Neseret: That’s a really tough place to be. And it can feel like you’re on your own and alone in it. And it’s tough when you’re in that space to feel like there is, because you’ve struggled for so long, that there’s any help or hope. Neseret: that’s understandable. At the same time, I know, that if you’re willing to keep an open mind that there’s a way for things to be better, then there’s that possibility. and that’s hard when you’ve tried so, for so long to, and struggled for, quite a time. but I would say, Spend some time on, Martin’s, channel and subscribe to the email so that you get those, lessons and start with that and then start applying just a little bit baby steps, and be patient with yourself, really be patient with yourself and see where that goes. Neseret: You can’t, you have to first, it’s hard to try something new when you have tried so many things and hasn’t worked out, but this is something that is going to, that you’re going to create from within yourself. It’s not anything that’s going to come from outside of you. And the major piece, like even in our conversation today, and Martin, you said like the, there’s a theme that runs through this, the biggest shift that you’re going to make is a mental shift and an attitude shift. Neseret: And that can be started anytime, at any point, from where you are. Even if it is to say, you know what, I’m going to try one more thing, and I’m going to try this thing, and I’m gonna make change. And just be willing to be open to that possibility, that you have the power within you, even in times when it feels hopeless, and you have tried everything, that there may be something else. Neseret: And the biggest shift is going to be that journey that you make in your mind and in your heart and in your attitude. Martin: Thank you again, Nesret, for taking the time to come onto the podcast and share your experience. It’s appreciated. Neseret: Thank you so much for having me. I really, I have a lot of respect for what you do. Neseret: And I’m, thank you so much for what you’ve given me as well, through your example and through your work. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Mentioned in this episode: Neseret’s website: Mental Health Reset Neseret’s social media: Twitter/X & YouTube Please share this episode!

When Bryan got sick he experienced an entire night of no sleep for the first time in his life. He didn’t sleep the next night, either. When his sleep didn’t get back on track, Bryan started to believe that he had lost the ability to sleep and that belief generated a lot of anxiety. As sleep consumed more and more of his energy and attention, Bryan started to withdraw from life. His relationships suffered as sleep became the center of his universe. Bryan found that the more he tried to make sleep happen, the more difficult sleep became, the more anxiety he experienced, the more likely he was to engage in actions that didn’t reflect who he was or who he wanted to be, and the more difficult everything became. And yet, as a driven problem-solver, he continued to try. Things began to change for Bryan when he accidentally fell asleep. When he fell asleep even though he didn’t do anything to make sleep happen. There was no trying. No effort. No rules. No rituals. No medication. No supplements. Bryan realized that he hadn’t lost the ability to sleep after all — and that he didn’t need to do anything to make sleep happen. This insight didn’t get rid of Bryan’s struggles overnight but it prompted him to change his approach. He started acting in ways that served him and the life he wanted to live, rather than sleep. When difficult nights showed up, he would remind himself of the better nights (and how they required no effort or intervention). Then, he would refocus his attention on what he could control by doing things that mattered to him — actions that kept him moving toward the life he wanted to live, independently of sleep. With this approach, sleep started to lose the power and influence it once had over his life. In Bryan’s own words, as he started getting his life back to normal, his sleep started getting back to normal, too. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, Brian, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast. Bryan: Yeah, thank you. Martin: Let’s start right at the beginning. Can you tell us a little bit more about when your sleep problems first began and what you think caused those initial issues with sleep? Bryan: I pinpointed back to a time where I got sick and I got sick and that evening my body broke out in hives. Bryan: And I ended up taking myself to the urgent care and they gave me a steroid. They gave me a steroid plus some other medication to to curtail the hives and the breakout. And I don’t know if it was an allergic reaction that I had to the medication, the steroid injection or the medication that gave me, I’m not sure. Bryan: But that night. My, my hives persisted and I didn’t sleep at all. So it was, I went my first time in my life going an entire night without sleep. And that was the beginning of this era of me not sleeping for a couple years. And so that, so I thought, okay, fine. I didn’t sleep that one night. Bryan: Nothing will happen the next night. We’ll be fine. It happened again the next night I didn’t sleep. And so I continued to have these. What I thought was the inability to sleep persisted and so for a couple of weeks and after that I went to the doctor. He gave me some antihistamines to make me drowsy but they didn’t work either. Bryan: And then time goes on, then they end up putting me on actual sleep medications like Lunesta, Ambien, things of that sort. Martin: So it sounds as though you can like really pinpoint an original trigger for that sleep disruption. Bryan: Yeah, the original Bryan: trigger was that one night of not, but as I think I mentioned to you in our previous email conversation was that it began it began a season of sleep anxiety where I thought I really lost the ability to sleep and so that was the, that was the beginning point and not exactly sure what the exact reason was, but it persisted for about two years. Bryan: And it made my life miserable. Martin: So I think many of us can recognize that sometimes stuff shows up in life that can disrupt our sleep just as you mentioned, and typically we just attribute that sleep disruption to whatever’s going on tend not to think too much of it and then takes care of itself once that trigger disappears or is no longer as relevant. Martin: When did that. Maybe that understanding or relationship change for you where it went from, okay, sleep is being disrupted because of what’s going on to, Oh, now it’s like sleep is the issue itself. What’s going on here? There’s something going on with my sleep. Sleep is the problem. Bryan: Yeah. It took a while, it took a while. Bryan: It took I want to say a good several months, maybe, up to a year to figure that out. I was trying to do everything On the exterior, I was doing I was trying to do the behavioral therapy listen to green noise, white noise whatever you want to call it, sleep stories anything to kind of, deal with the the the secondary symptoms And it, it finally realized that it was just my, it was my anxiety. Bryan: It finally realized that I had anxiety that I can’t sleep. Like it, I was tired. I was really tired. I, my, my head would hit the pillow. Then all of a sudden I’d be wide awake, thinking about sleeping over and over again am I going to sleep tonight? Can I sleep tonight? Is it going to be the same night, like last night? Bryan: Then I’d be up to two, three in the morning just. dozing off for what seemed like five minutes and waking up and doing that persistently throughout the night. And so it came, it was about a year ago I realized that it was actually sleep was the core issue. And my, just my whole thought process behind what the sleep function was. Martin: So the longer it went on, it was as if sleep itself was just consuming more of your focus, more of your attention, more of your energies, more of your concerns. Bryan: It was 100 percent of my life for for two years where I, I think about, I go to the office without any sleep thinking, am I going to be able to sleep tonight? Bryan: And that was just the center of my universe, and I did things that were contrary to even my belief systems and to my, to things that just out of frustration, just out of desperation of trying to sleep, like drinking, like I started drinking I hadn’t drank in a very long time. Bryan: And so then I started popping open bottles of wine in my, that I had stored in my house. For years and I started drinking, and I started doing things that like I never thought I would do just to try to, um, try to relieve quite candidly, the pain. Martin: And I think that’s where we can so easily get stuck because we want to fix this issue of sleep and it gets to a point where we just will do anything. Martin: to try and fix the situation. And just like you touched upon, that’s when it can become even more difficult because it can draw us into behaviors and actions that aren’t aligned with who we are or who we want to be. So we feel uncomfortable and things can get difficult because we’re doing those things. Martin: And then it’s like a double whammy because on top of that, we might not even be noticing an improvement in our sleep on top. And there wasn’t. Bryan: Even after I started drinking, I wouldn’t say that I, I drank it, I was drinking dangerously, but it didn’t improve my sleep at all. Martin: And it sounds like that was an action or a behavior that you didn’t really want to be engaged in. Bryan: That’s not something, yeah, that, yeah, exactly, that’s not something I wanted to do. But, like I mentioned, it was out of desperation. Martin: And it’s all completely understandable. Yeah. And the reason I just like to dig a little bit deeper there is just because I think everyone listening to this will be able to identify with that to some degree in the, we just become so understandably focused or intent and determined to address our sleep issues. Martin: We can so easily go down that path of doing things that we’d rather not be doing in an attempt to fix the problem. So now And then when that doesn’t work or if that doesn’t work, we’ve still got the sleep issues and then piled on top, we’ve got all these new actions or behaviors that can make us feel bad or make things feel more difficult because they’re not aligned with the person we want to be. Martin: We don’t really want to be doing those things. And that’s why it’s so easy to just end up feeling stuck. Bryan: It changed me quite a bit. Now, during that era I was reclusive. I, I went to the office, but I was absent and I it was hard to get a hold of. There were just a lot of things about my behavior that changed and about who I became for that period of time that I just hated. Bryan: But I’d stay at home, try to sleep just for a couple hours and it just didn’t work. It just Yeah, relationship suffered my kid suffered, it just was not a good, it was not a good time. Martin: Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds as though there was a little bit of hint, a little hint in there that maybe you were being quite hard on yourself too. Bryan: I’m always hard on myself, so that’s who I am. I’m a very driven of a person and I’m very goal and achievement driven And I’m often, I’ve been told that I’m my biggest critic but that’s who I am. I can’t that’s one thing I can’t separate from myself. Martin: Yeah. Did you find that when you were being hard on yourself, specifically in connection to sleep, did that make things easier? Martin: Did it make them more difficult? Or do you feel like it just didn’t really have much of an influence, it was neutral? Bryan: I was determined like one way or another. I think my trying to drive like myself being very driven as a person it drove me to not just settle for what was happening to try to find a solution. Bryan: And so I went to sleep doctors, I did apnea tests. I did all these things to try to figure out what was the core root of my solution. So I was going this way, that way, not only trying to deal with the symptoms, but trying to figure out what the core. issue was. And I remember that one night where I was, I was hooked up to all these gadgets for a night and to do a sleep study. Bryan: And obviously, I didn’t have sleep apnea, but but I was driven to find a solution to it. And it just so happens my solution didn’t even come from where I was looking but nonetheless, like it, it really was. I was really determined because again, my relationship relationships were suffering and things were happening. Bryan: My work was suffering. And I just I needed to find a solution one way or another, and I was going to find it somehow. Martin: That’s a really good point that you raised there. I think that we can use our inner critic in helpful ways, for example, to drive us to become better advocates for ourselves to explore solutions. Martin: And at the same time, maybe there’s like a shadowy side of the inner critic where we can just be really mean to ourselves after difficult nights. Like you shouldn’t have had a night like that. Why is everyone else able to sleep better than you? Why haven’t you fixed it yet? And it’s that side of things that can easily draw us into that route where things become more difficult because we’re just being, we’re adding that harsh self talk and, lack of self compassion on top. Bryan: Yeah. Yeah that’s very true. I was I was being, I would beat myself up every night for why didn’t I have a good night’s sleep and why can’t you do this? What’s wrong with you? What’s wrong with you? Even, I even wanted to go and get blood tests to see if there’s anything biologically wrong with myself. Bryan: Obviously, no, no avail there, but but yeah, I was doing everything I can And there’s something wrong with you but yeah. Martin: What was an average night like for you when things were really difficult? Was it more to do with difficulty just first falling asleep at the start of the night? Bryan: Most nights it was I couldn’t fall asleep. For a number of hours. And maybe around two o’clock and I just use that generally, but by two o’clock I fall asleep. But it’d be for a very brief moment where my head was still racing and I would wake up almost immediately. Bryan: So even from the point of time where I actually did fall asleep after three hours of laying in bed or, getting up, trying to go to sleep, going here, going there It would about, it would be almost immediately wake, I’d wake up almost immediately and I would, that would continue throughout the night till where I had to wake up like at six o’clock or six thirty, whatever it was. Bryan: So I had brief moments of sleep but there was never anything that was elongated to actually allow me to go through a single sleep cycle. Martin: When you found that your head was racing what kind of, what was going on at that time? Bryan: Like how, just how do I get my head to stop racing? Bryan: And why am I thinking so much? Why am I thinking about this so much? And so I would do anything I can. I put in my earbuds. I tried to listen on YouTube to sleep stories music, something soothing I think I mentioned like green noise or brown noise or white noise whatever they call it. Bryan: And just to ground out my thoughts. And they would help a little bit, but not necessarily. Um, none, it wasn’t, it was definitely not a solution. I tried to do everything that I was, I read about, I try to get up, read a book to make myself, go to sleep and, and dim light, or, if you don’t, if you’re not, if you’re not sleepy, get out of bed. Bryan: I do everything like don’t watch TV. Don’t use your phone. A couple hours before bed, everything as far as behavioral therapy that I was told to do, I did. And none of it worked. Martin: There’s so much there that I just know that a lot of people listening are going to really identify with. The first thing was, that dealing with that racing mind. Martin: I think everyone struggling with sleep can identify with that. And when we see that racing mind as an obstacle to sleep, it makes sense that we want to address that and tackle it. So then we end up going down the route of, okay, how can I stop my mind racing? How can I clear my mind? How can I stop? Martin: Thoughts, or what was the word you used? Drown them out quell those thoughts how can I promote calmness? How can I create all of those good conditions for sleep? And it’s interesting because I think, first and foremost, it’s completely understandable why we do this. And secondly, I think if we’re able to, I think there are some insights there because I think if we can reflect on a time in our past when sleep wasn’t an issue or a concern, did we go to similar levels of effort to eliminate certain thoughts from our mind, to promote calmness to slow down our thoughts or any of that stuff? Martin: And if we didn’t, maybe there is. That’s an insight there that maybe this stuff isn’t needed. Maybe we can still sleep regardless of what our mind is doing and maybe it’s all the understandable effort we’re putting into kind of wrestling with our mind, getting it to do what we want that might be making things more difficult. Bryan: That’s a good point. I almost think that I almost think that the behavioral therapy and everything I was doing, it was counterproductive because it kept my mind on the issue, it kept my mind on sleep. Yeah. And I would go back, we’d go back to when we were kids. We’d have a long day of school, playing sports, whatever it is, and then we’d hit the pillow. Bryan: And within minutes we’re asleep. That was just naturally what we did and that’s the way God made us. We’re naturally able to fall asleep, but in, in all of these behavioral therapies, I’m not saying they don’t work. I’m not saying they’re not good for some people, but for, in my experience, it was counterproductive because it kept my mind on the issue. Bryan: It kept my mind focused on my inability to sleep. And so it just it and I’m going to probably just going to assume that, My experience is going to be the same, similar to other people as well. Martin: I think everyone listening to this will probably be able to reflect on, it seems that the more effort I put into this. Martin: The more stuck I feel it’s almost like being in the quicksand, like the more you’re struggling, the more you’re trying to get out of it, the more you feel as though you’re either not moving or maybe you’re sinking even further down. And I think that’s sometimes where any approach towards addressing this can sometimes trip us up, because if we’re engaging in a certain behavior, For example listening to certain sound frequencies, or not watching TV in the evening. Martin: In an effort to control something that happens inside us, to control our thoughts and feelings, or to control sleep, we might be setting ourselves up for some struggle there, because typically those things are out of our direct control. If we can reframe our actions or have a different intention or a different goal, maybe the goal is to explore how we can move away from the control agenda, from trying to create perfect conditions for sleep, for trying to eliminate certain thoughts and feelings, for trying to make sleepiness or calm or relaxation happen. Martin: Maybe if we can Use our problem solving strengths with that intention. That might be more helpful than using them with the intent of trying to control stuff that our experience might be telling us can’t be controlled through effort. Bryan: Yeah. Now, I don’t try to control my sleep. I’ll be candid. Bryan: I don’t I’ve never been a good sleeper and so six hours for me is perfectly fine. Like I function on six hours. I’m good. I’m very active person. And I know some people that they need eight, nine hours and that’s fine. But for me, my body functions very well in six hours and sometimes less. Bryan: But I don’t try to control my sleep anymore. And so once I lock, once I Once I let go of that control aspect of my sleep where I just go to sleep when I’m tired. If I have a crappy night of sleep, I’m like, okay, fine. I forget about it. Like whatever, no big deal. I’ve stopped trying to control my sleep. Bryan: I’m not going to come and control it. I just know that I have the ability to sleep. Martin: Yeah, just know, knowing that you’ve got that natural ability to sleep can be really helpful. Bryan: It’s actually very powerful. Martin: So maybe this is connected, but I’m curious, so you have this issue with sleep. You want to fix it. As you said, you’re quite a driven person, a problem solver. You want to get to the solution. So you’re trying all these different things. They seem not to be working. Martin: Maybe every now and then they seem to. temporarily work or, some improvement but over the longer term, they don’t seem to be getting you to that place that you want to be. How do you change direction? So how do you move away from just continuing to try, continuing to attempt to control and take this different approach of, I’m going to let go of trying. Martin: I’m going to let go of trying to control sleep. How do you do that? Bryan: Yeah, that was a tough thing because I wasn’t able to. And I didn’t mention it in my email to you is that it came by accident. I did everything I can, like I said, behavioral therapy, drinking. I was, my doctor didn’t seem to care either as far as his prescription of sleeping pills. Bryan: I, I told him, I said, Hey, listen, any I prescribed Lunesta to me and I was going back every month for two milligrams or whatever it was. And I went back to him and said, Hey I’d like to cut this out of my life, and, I don’t think, I don’t want to be on this the rest of my life. Bryan: And his reaction was like, Oh, what’s the big deal? Everybody’s, a lot of people are on sleep pills, for the rest of their life. He seemed to have no concern of my desire to get off these things. So I’m like, okay, thanks doc. And he literally gave me a year supply of prescription because, they’re controlled substances. Bryan: You gotta, take your ID to the pharmacy and show it. And so he gave me like a year supply of this stuff. And so anyways, like I had no help from him, but as I mentioned is the, in my email to you the, when I fell asleep on accident and I say by accident, because I just put my head on my pillow watching and I just. Bryan: fell asleep for the entire night. I woke up not only refreshed, but with a new understanding of my relationship with sleep is like, Oh my gosh, I have the ability to sleep. I just did it on my own without any prescriptions, without any trying. And that was it. Like I didn’t try, I didn’t try to sleep. Bryan: I didn’t try to force myself to go to bed. I didn’t try to force myself. I did it without any effort at all. I could do this again. I can replicate this. And so that’s when it started to build on it. Yeah. I had some relapses and I had to take some pills here and there, but that was now the, that was now the kind of the apex of the road where I’m like, you know what? Bryan: I’m going to change directions. I’m not going to try anymore. I’m just going to let myself naturally go to sleep. We’re going to let myself, my, my head just naturally wander. Because I know I have the ability to do it. And so I just built upon that, night after night, and after, several months, it took several months, where I’m like, you know what, I don’t need melatonin, I don’t need any of this stuff, I’m done with it. Martin: It sounds like that was just a huge light bulb moment for you, that really helped drive you toward this different approach. Bryan: And I think that’s where I wanted to share my story with you. Because I don’t think it’s unique. I think there’s a lot of people that are struggling in the same sense where they feel a loss of ability and that beginning to try. Bryan: And I’m like, no, just stop trying. Once you stop trying and allow your body to naturally go through its sleep cycle and just do what it naturally does, the way God made us, let’s, that, honestly that’s my experience. It’s just letting sleep take over. Martin: Was that the first night that you’d not taken medication before going to bed or had you tried that approach before in the past and still struggled? Bryan: I, I tried without any success. But that was not my intention. My intention that night was to watch, watch a little TV, because it was still early, but I was obviously exhausted because, lack of sleep. And my intention was to get up and probably take a pill. Bryan: And so I didn’t have any intention of not taking the pill that night. I had no intention of, not doing the things I was previously doing to try to sleep. It just happened. And that’s when I’m like, Oh my gosh, that was like, you said the ah-ha moment that light bulb work. My goodness, I could do this. Bryan: I was successful one night. I could be successful a second night too. And then the second night I was successful. I was able to sleep. I was actually giddy to go to sleep. I’m like, I can do this now. Such a simple thing that we take for granted. Martin: Yeah, absolutely. And I’m going to guess that it wasn’t like, so you had the first night where this first happened, second night, you sounded like you had a good night again. Martin: And then it was just all plain sailing from then on third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, up until today, every single night was just fantastic. Bryan: Not at all. Not at all. There was a lot of struggle. I call them relapses, but I did have to go back to take a half a, half a pill of Lunesta. I did have crappy nights. Bryan: But I always went back to that success of the first night. I, it’s a side story, but I coach competitive baseball and softball. And so I have pitchers, and I actually use, I actually, this was a lesson that I learned that I was able to give to my pitchers that struggle in the circle in softball. Bryan: When they’re struggling, I take them back, I’ll call time out, I’ll go talk to them. I take them back to the success that they had in previous moments. I said, Hey, someone’s, Dakota or hey, Alexa, whoever I’ll take them back to success that I had in the past. Bryan: And remember when you did this, remember when you achieved this in this game or, whatever it is, you can do that again. Today, like right now what’s happening, this is just for a moment. You can, you can go back to those moments of success, and that’s what I had to do. I had to go back to that moment of success for continue to remind myself that I can sleep, that I do have the ability that this right now that’s happening right now, this really crappy night. Bryan: This is just a moment in time that’s going to pass. Tomorrow will be better. Martin: That is, It’s so helpful and so important, I believe, because in that, just that practice of consciously drawing on your previous successes or reminding yourself of your previous successes and maybe even identifying and drawing upon your strengths. Martin: What strengths did you use to get through to these difficult periods in the past? And how can you draw upon them again? Because the mind will always want to focus on the most difficult thing going on right now, where you’re really struggling. It has that real negativity bias on all the difficult stuff because It’s doing its job, it’s trying to look out for us. Martin: So it doesn’t care about the good stuff. It’s just going to focus on all the difficult stuff. So we do, I think, need to make that conscious effort to practice reminding ourselves of our successes, reminding ourselves of our strengths, and refocusing our attention in ways that help us draw upon all of that good stuff rather than just being Or the difficult situation we’re in at that time, just overwhelming all of our attention. Bryan: No, absolutely. Absolutely. Martin: I think that’s what you were really sharing, like when you used that example of coaching, because when someone is struggling, that’s it, the mind is just focused on that struggling with the pitching, right? Bryan: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you see it in their face. You see it in their demeanor. Bryan: Yeah, you see it in their demeanor, and you’re like, hey, You are really good. You just did this. Yeah, today’s right now you’re struggling a little bit, have the ability because you did it. Martin: I think someone listening to this could maybe take that kind of approach and even just use it on themselves, almost like being our own coach in a way. Martin: So when things do feel difficult is Maybe see if there’s a way we can detach ourselves from that inner critic or from just that automatic behavior of focusing on, I’m really struggling now, so this is going to be 100 percent of my focus, to maybe talking to ourselves like a coach would talk to us, or Maybe talking to ourselves like we would talk to someone that we loved who was dealing with this right now. Martin: What would we say to them? Would we tell them, ah, forget about it, you’re broken, you’re a failure this struggle that you’re in is never going to change? Or are we more likely to say remember that time when This happened when you were successful. Remember, what strengths can you draw upon? You’re a strong person. Martin: Just, all of that stuff can just be so helpful to, to get our brain out of that negativity bias that it’s always gonna, that’s always the path it’s gonna take. That’s like the clearest path forward for the mind to take. No, Bryan: you’re right. Obviously, like if someone’s struggling with sleep we’re not going to tell them you’re a failure or anything. Bryan: I know that was tongue in cheek but I also think it’s somewhat not productive to, give them all these things to do as well. Hey, do this, do that, and give them a checklist to check off because again we’re trying to do, we’re trying to do something that we naturally should be doing and we all do like we all have the ability to sleep. Bryan: And so it’s like putting too much effort into something that naturally comes like breathing, you know I’m like do we put a lot of effort into breathing? No, do we put a lot of effort into our blood flowing through our body or heart pumping? No, absolutely not it’s involuntary and sleep should be Considered, we shouldn’t see sleep as involuntary is where it’s just something our body naturally does and we you know We’ve open put too much effort to it that it just you know, we I think we lose focus on You know what part of our life it really is Martin: I really that analogy with breathing is one that I use quite a lot because with breathing We can also temporarily control or influence it, right? Martin: We can hold our breaths, for example but eventually the body will take over and make breathing happen. And I relate that to all of our efforts to sleep, like we put all of these efforts into sleep, and they can in turn make sleep more difficult a lot of the time. But no matter how little sleep we get on one night or two nights, three nights, four nights, five nights, Sooner or later, some amount of sleep is going to happen because the body will take over and just as it always generates the minimum number of breaths we need, it’s always going to generate the minimum amount of sleep we need. Martin: That might not happen on one specific night, but as we average it out over a week or a couple of weeks or a month, it’s always going to generate the minimum that we need. So you’ve got this big light bulb moment of Oh, I accidentally had no intention to sleep and I found myself sleeping, so I realize now that I don’t need to exert so much control into sleep and that I can sleep by myself. Martin: How did you use that to help you get through the return of difficult nights in the future? Bryan: Yeah, I started to do the things I did before I, I stopped sleeping. And for that period of time, I was not doing the things that I love to do, like running, riding my bike, going to the gym, things like that. Bryan: And I, I ride mountain bikes, and so my I had friends that would call me on, Hey, let’s go ride on Saturday morning, and I’d say, no, I can’t, I feel sick. Which the truth was, I didn’t sleep that night. And so it was constant of that. And so what I did is I started returning to the things that I love to do and which is mostly athletics, as far as, um, like my, my, my hobbies and stuff. Bryan: It’s athletically driven. And so whether it’s running, lifting weights or riding my bike or now it’s coaching, my, my kids I started to do those things that I used to love to do. And so it was getting my life back to normal and that helped me like getting my life back to normal, help my sleep, get back to normal as well. Bryan: Because again, like I mentioned before, my sleep deprivation had absolutely affected my entire life where I was not doing the things that I should be doing or I love to do or, or anything like that. And once that sleep returned and it’s, in some shape or form that I started to return to my normal life and things became normal again. Bryan: It started to become more and more normal every single day, every single week. And so it was not putting sleep as a focus where I’d stay at home, I’d be in the office just thinking about sleep. I’m going to sleep during that. And I’d literally have a yoga mat in my office to just lay down, pull my head and turn off the lights. Bryan: Just to see if I could sleep at all in my office in the middle of the day. And that’s how much I was focused on sleep. My, 24 7. But then I just started returning to normal life, doing the things I had to do, or wanted to do. Martin: So it sounds like your focus really shifted from nighttime actions to daytime actions. Martin: So instead of focusing really on creating the best possible conditions for sleep or putting effort into sleep, trying to control your mind, your focus was on each day doing things that mattered to you. Bryan: And not thinking about sleep throughout the day, like I used to. And so thinking and caring about things that I actually cared about or people that I care about and stuff like that. Bryan: It was just one of those things where my sleep, the focus, I just took my focus off sleep and focus on life. Martin: If someone’s listening to this and they think, I would love to be able to stop thinking about sleep, but it’s all I can think about. And no matter how much I try to stop thinking about it, my mind just wants to think about it. Martin: How do you get to that place where you’re just not thinking? Bryan: Oh man. I, that’s a million dollar question because it came different. Honestly, it’s, I don’t have the answer for that person. But the answer, but what I do. What I will share is that you do have the ability to sleep. You have not lost it. Bryan: It’s in, it’s an errand in our, how we’re created. And so we have the ability to sleep, how you get there. I would suggest that you start doing the things that you love to do before sleep took over. If it’s, if it’s reading, if it’s crocheting, whatever it is, start doing those things, those relationships that perhaps you neglected for that time, because they do like relationships suffer. Bryan: When you’re sleep deprived and when you’re dealing with insomnia that all happens start re engaging with those people and just do the things that you used to love to do and Just watch how you’re behaving Your brain and your whole mindset starts to refocus on things that matter rather than things that shouldn’t matter. Martin: Yeah, I think the reason it’s a million dollar question is maybe because there’s no way to consciously stop our mind from thinking certain thoughts. No, there’s not. And maybe that is what makes us struggle more, that makes things more difficult because we realize that we don’t want to be thinking about sleep all day long, all night long. Martin: So we try not to. But then we’re really focused more on the thought of sleep because we have to focus on the thought of sleep in order to try not to think about sleep, which is like really confusing, but I think what can happen when we take this approach that you talked about of doing more of the stuff that matters or bringing that back into our lives again, the stuff that we might’ve moved away from, things that are important, things that matter is. Martin: That’s not going to immediately and permanently delete thoughts about sleep or anything else. But what it does do is it gives our minds other things to focus attention on. It opens up and broadens, expands our focus because there’s more stuff available for the mind to calculate, think about, figure out. Martin: And the more we’re doing things that matter to us independently of sleep. The less power and influence sleep is having over our lives because it’s not having the same level of influence over our actions. So I think a natural, maybe a natural byproduct of this is the mind is less concerned with sleep now because we’re doing more of the stuff that matters independently of how we sleep. Martin: So the mind’s less bothered about it, the mind’s less focused about it, so it tends to think about it less. Not because we’re trying not to think about it, but because we’re proving to our minds that. Sleep doesn’t have this high, intense degree of power and influence, so the brain’s Okay, this is something that I don’t need to really think about so much anymore. Bryan: Precisely. Absolutely. And sleep, when I tell people don’t really understand When I explained to them that I suffered from insomnia, anybody that has dealt with chronic insomnia knows that it’s absolutely suffering. Bryan: And there’s a lot of things that are going on, but mentally it is depressed. It just, it’s just, it’s draining. And so we do suffer from insomnia. And the vast majority of that is the. The 24 seven thinking about it where everything else is neglected. And so the more that we shift our mind and our focus to things we love and people we love and. Bryan: And things we want to do, the less time sleep has, the less time that we have to think about sleep, and the less power it has over our lives. Martin: That’s really powerful. When we’re suffering with insomnia, we see the only solution to reducing that suffering as to get a certain amount or type of sleep. Martin: But what you’re saying is there are other ways of reducing our suffering, and one of those ways of reducing our suffering might be to get back into doing more of the things that matter to us. More of the things that enrich our lives, that make us feel good, that are important to us. And so we’re not trying to directly control sleep right now. Martin: But we’re just trying to do more of what’s important to us. We’re trying to take actions that move us towards the life we want to live. And that, in turn, is one way that we can reduce our level of suffering. Am I hearing you right there? Bryan: Absolutely. We’re like, we’re a cup. We only be filled so high. Bryan: We only be consumed so high. And when we’re suffering from insomnia, we’re pretty much at the top of our, at the fill level. When we start filling it with other things, That, like I said, matter to us that we have less time to be consumed or less time to be filled with the aspect of sleep. Martin: That’s, it’s almost like you had that prop prepared there. Did you have that rehearse? That one? Bryan: It’s because I love coffee. Martin: I think it’s a great analogy. The idea of, I, I use. I use something similar by talking about concentration and dilution. So when our entire focus, when we’ve got nothing else to concentrate on or to do, that car There’s just our life is a bubble and inside that bubble it’s just sleep. Martin: Because we’ve removed everything else that makes us who we are. And so it’s really concentrated. And what if we can add stuff back in? Going for a bike ride, if we like bike riding. Going for a walk around the block if we like walking, maybe meeting up with some friends if we like to socialize with friends. Martin: And so sleep or insomnia might still be in that bubble, but now there’s other things in that bubble too. So we’re starting to dilute it down a little bit, and so we reduce its level of power and influence, and we might also reduce the level of suffering that brings us. Bryan: For even those that are, that are listening to this, that think that, my life is perfect now and my life is, like sleep is perfect. I get eight hours of sleep. That’s not the case. Because again, I have so many things going on in my life. There’s so many things like I’m being tugged and pulled all these different directions. So I’m not going to say that I have eight hours of sleep, and I don’t wake up. Bryan: That’s just not the case. I still drink a lot of caffeine throughout the day. And because, again, because I love coffee, that’s just one of my things. And if I get six hours of sleep, I’m fine with that. Everybody, every person is different. I do wake up through the night. And as I get older, I’m getting older, that’s going to happen more, getting closer to 50, which is, , things happen when you get older. Bryan: And so don’t expect to have like perfect night from here on out or every night or whatever it is because I don’t have that. But what I do know is that I can’t sleep now naturally. I don’t need to take pills. I don’t need to drink. I don’t need to, take anything, any substance to make myself fall asleep. Bryan: It’s a natural ability that I have now. Or I’ve always had, I just had to re-realize it. Martin: You make a good point there, because no one has the perfect night of sleep every night. Just like nobody has the perfect day every day. We have really difficult days, we have great days, and sleep is the same. We have great nights, we have really difficult nights. Martin: I think what matters is, how we respond. So do we respond to a difficult day, for example, by just being, that was a difficult day. I’m never leaving the house again, because I never want to experience a day like that ever again. Over the long term, barricading ourselves into our house might give us a little bit of comfort, but it’s probably not going to give us a very rich, meaningful life. Martin: And it’s a similar thing about sleep. So if a difficult night happens, how do we respond? That’s really what matters. We can’t go back in time and change what’s already happened. So do we respond by what’s often the easiest response of getting drawn back into the struggle again? Or do we respond by maybe just being honest with ourselves, acknowledging we had a difficult night, being kind to ourselves in return, and then continuing to do things that matter to us, no matter how small they might be. Bryan: Yeah. Yeah. I, every time I have a, when I have a bad night of sleep, I, it’s very, I’m very nonchalant about it. I’ll wake up and man, that night sucked, but I’m good. I’m good. Like I know next, did when, The next night will more than likely be a lot better than the previous night. Bryan: That’s just the way it is. Like I have that attitude now where, all right, this night sucked or I didn’t sleep well, no big deal, going to go through life and I’m going to do what I need to do and, take care of all the commitments I need to take care of and then go to sleep at night. And if this all happens to not work out again, oh I will sleep again. Bryan: It’s not a big deal. Like sleep has not become a core focus of my life. Whatsoever. It’s actually taking a backseat where it just is, it is what it is. Martin: When you first started to reintroduce things that mattered to your life like I think you mentioned that mountain biking, was that one of the things? Martin: Like the more of the kind of physical stuff. Yeah. Did you find that was always easy to do that? Martin: Did you find that it always gave you the same kind of feelings that it gave you compared to when sleep wasn’t an issue? Bryan: So when I was out there, yeah because I find doing things physically I, when I do something to the extreme and so I exert myself to the extreme. Bryan: And so I’m talking about like elevated heart rate. I’m just. And that’s just the way I am, like if I’m walking for an hour, that’s not exercise to me, but heart sprints, intervals, stuff like that’s exercise to me. So I’m very much to the extreme on a lot of things. Bryan: So it was hard for me knowing that the way my, my mind works, as far as I need to go to the extreme, it was hard for me to push myself out that door to get there. To do it because I know okay, my body may not be up to it because I don’t take things easy. But once I got out there, I was like, okay, I can do this again. Bryan: I feel that euphoria again. I feel that sense of bliss and serenity out here in the, on the trails with my friends, even if I was by myself, it didn’t matter, but yeah, it just felt good to be out there. And it took me back to where I just wanted it again. I wanted that sense. I wanted those sensations again, even the smell. Bryan: I miss the smell, I live right by trail system and I’ll leave my garage and I’ll go up the trail system and I have that, there’s that, that, a floral smell in the trails that I just missed, that I now crave, so it’s just like all that sensation yeah, I just, it, yeah, I just need it again. Bryan: So it just drove me, it drove me to do it over and over again and just build on that. Martin: Yeah, you’re just expanding that focus again, like we were talking about, you got that coffee cup and now you’re adding mountain biking into that coffee cup, you’re adding the smells that you experience the physical sensations that you experience, there’s so much more stuff just from that one action, even though it can be really hard to motivate yourself to get yourself out of the door in the first place, once you’re actually out there and doing it, or once you’ve finished, you found that was more beneficial compared to not doing anything at all. Martin: How long would you say that it took for you to get to a point where you felt that you just weren’t engaged in any kind of struggle with sleep anymore when it just didn’t have any level of power or influence over your life? Bryan: I don’t know the answer because I put it so past, far behind me. Bryan: It’s been years. It was pre, pre COVID pandemic. So it was, it’s been a good five, six years where I’ve been, I don’t want to say cured, but I’m not suffering from insomnia anymore. But if I had to recall it probably a good six to eight months of consistent reassuring myself that I can sleep because I did, there, there is those times where I actually just recently found a old bottle of my Lunesta. Bryan: In my cup or my, my cabinet where I actually like, Oh crap, like these and throwing them out and old pills to like antihistamines and the other things that they tried to give me, like I found some of those things were actually do not need anymore. My pill cutter to like I had a pill cutter to try to cut down on doses. Bryan: It takes a while. It’s not like just a, it’s not just something that happens overnight. Yeah. That incident that, that. Night of sleep happened overnight. Retraining your brain to, to understand the normality of sleep, that doesn’t come. Bryan: You have to continue to reassure yourself. And I want to say about a good six to eight months where I’m like, you know what, I don’t think about this anymore. I can throw everything away. Don’t need any sort of crutches. I’m good. Martin: Just as you said, it’s a process. It’s not a quick fix. Martin: And there are usually ups and downs on the way, just as you described, it wasn’t, you had that light bulb moment and then everything was magically transformed. There were still difficult nights. There were still times when you were drawn into the struggle. There were still times when you were aware that you were engaging in some different kinds of sleep efforts. Martin: You hadn’t fully been able to let that control philosophy or control agenda go just yet, which is fine, but it was a process, right? It was a series of steps, sometimes forward, maybe sometimes backwards, sometimes not moving. But it was all part of the process. And. It sounds as though your process involved a period of identifying efforts to control sleep and starting to eliminate them from your life and reintroducing all the stuff that maybe got lost. Martin: Pushed aside, always held back until you were sleeping, getting a certain amount or type of sleep again. You just were like, no, I’m going to do it the other way around. I’m going to put this stuff back into my life now, rather than waiting. If that was a summary of the approach you took, do I have that reasonably accurate? Bryan: I think you’ve summarized it quite well. Once I realized I had the ability to sleep, I started filling my life up with things that mattered. And didn’t wait for that full recovery to start doing those things again. That would have just taken too long. Martin: I can just tell that, all those character strengths of yours that we spoke about earlier, like this determination, this very solution focused approach come out just in that one sentence. Martin: If I’d have just waited. Before doing all this stuff that mattered to me, that would have taken too long. I’m very impatient with things. And like I want it done here and now obviously that’s not always a good thing, but but yeah, if I would have waited, it just I would have suffered even more. Martin: There’s often a question that I ask when I’m working with clients, is if a client tells me about something that’s really important to them, that has dropped out of their life because of their struggles with sleep first of all, we explore why that’s important. And then I’ll ask them if that’s important to you, why wait? Bryan: Because everybody that suffers from insomnia they are, they are removing things from their life that are important to them and it’s going to be people, it’s going to be. events. It’s going to be the arm. They’re substituting those things with their consumption of sleep. Bryan: Absolutely. There’s not one person out there that suffers from signing. And I said, I still do all these things. Yet I still suffer from signing. No they’re replacing all those important things with sleep, and so absolutely this focus more, let’s get back to focusing on what’s important and replacing the sleep with it. Bryan: the people and the things that are important to you. Martin: What if someone is listening to this and they say sleep is important to me. Bryan: Sleep is important to everybody, but I think the analogy we used before, so it’s, so is breathing. And so is blood flowing through our bodies. And, so is certain other things that are involuntary. Bryan: Yes, it is important . But you have to realize that it is an absolute natural. We have the natural ability to sleep, it’s, it should be considered involuntary and can, think about sleep as involuntary and just allow your body to just let it happen. Bryan: Focus on the doing the things you’re gonna, don’t ever think about sleep as I’m going to go do sleep. I’m going to go, I’m going to work to get to sleep when you have to go to sleep, just say, I’m going to go to sleep because that’s what’s going to happen. Bryan: I’m not going to work towards it. I’m not going to focus on it. I’m not going to, spend any inordinate amount of time on sleep. It’s just going to happen. So yes, it’s important for other day functions, but yeah, it’s just focus on the things that really do matter. Martin: I suspect that you might’ve covered a lot of this just in our discussion, but there’s a question that I like to ask all my guests at the end. Martin: And so I’m going to ask it to you as well. Maybe you could just summarize it. And it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they are beyond help, that they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. What would you say to them? Bryan: I’m going to tell them that I hope and pray that this podcast does help you a little bit or other, the other podcasts that, that you want and have to share. But I’m not certain that it will, and I’m not certain that, anything that I tell you is going to help you because my experience is going to be vastly different than somebody else’s. Bryan: All I want to tell you is that is. It’s unquestionable that you do have the ability to sleep. It is natural. It is God given. It’s involuntary and don’t try to do it. But you do have the ability to sleep. You’re thinking to yourself, I don’t know. I’m not sure, but I promise that you do. I thought I lost the ability. Bryan: My recovery is going to be different than everybody or different than a lot of different people. Yeah, try to, hopefully my, my experience helps you, but if it doesn’t you will recover, and you do have the ability to sleep. Please just understand that you were a child once and there was a time in your life that you did not even have to think about it. Bryan: You went to sleep. You can get back to that past success. You can do that again. You didn’t lose the ability. Martin: Brian, I really appreciate the time you’ve taken out of your day to come on the podcast. I’ve got no doubt that this discussion is going to resonate with a lot of people help a lot of people and maybe just tease out some insights that will help people to maybe think about their insomnia or sleep and the role it plays in their lives in a slightly different way. Martin: So again, thank you for coming on. Bryan: Thank you. Thank you, Martin, for having me. It’s it’s been Bryan: fun. Martin: Yeah, and I really hope this helps somebody. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Please share this episode!

Emily’s insomnia struggle began around four months after the birth of her baby. Even though her daughter was sleeping well, Emily was finding it really difficult to fall asleep. She started to get nervous and anxious as her level of exhaustion intensified. When the medication prescribed by her doctor didn’t work, Emily started to get really concerned. She started researching solutions but found that the more she tried to fix her sleep, the more difficult it became and the more stressful things got. Emily’s anxiety intensified to the point where the arrival of bedtime would lead to a racing heart and a sense of panic. It felt like her body was preparing for a marathon while she wanted to get a good night of sleep so she could be the mother she wanted to be for her daughter. Emily’s transformation began when she changed her approach to sleep and her response to insomnia. She reduced the amount of time she allotted for sleep to more closely match the amount of sleep she was getting on an average night. She started to do something more pleasant whenever she found herself struggling with being awake at night. She stopped calculating the amount of sleep she was getting each night and she began to look at sleep with less judgement and more neutrality. Instead of trying to fight or avoid her racing heart and the anxiety, she surrendered to them — she acknowledged their presence and allowed them to exist. And, she committed to doing things that mattered, even after difficult nights and even when she felt exhausted. Emily surrendered to whatever might happen each night — and this freed her from the pressure she was putting on herself to generate a certain amount or type of sleep and allowed her to move away from the struggle that came from trying to control her thoughts and feelings. Today, Emily goes to bed sometime around 11 at night and wakes naturally around seven in the morning. Sleep is no longer a concern or a focus. Her focus now is on living the life she wants to live. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay. So Emily, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Emily: Thanks for having me, Martin. Martin: It’s great to have you on. Let’s start right at the very beginning. When did your struggle with sleep begin and what do you think caused your initial issues with sleep? Emily: I noticed that I started having issues about four months postpartum to having my first child. Was always a pretty good sleeper and actually slept probably longer than the average person and yeah, I started noticing that, um, I just the sleep disturbances from having a newborn I think kind of are what triggered the not falling asleep at night because I was on high alert and that’s where it just spiraled downward. Martin: So I think people might understand that having a baby is going to create some sleep disruption. And at the same time, they might also acknowledge or predict that, as we start to adjust to having a new baby, as the baby starts to sleep a little bit more reliably through the night. That our sleep might get back on track. Martin: But I’m assuming that because we’re talking, you found that wasn’t your experience. Emily: Yeah. I it’s so funny, I remember the exact day, like it was yesterday, I wasn’t, to my knowledge, particularly stressed or anything. I was actually, it was a really nice day, and it was in the fall, and we had taken our daughter to do a little walk in the woods, and just a really nice day, and she was actually Sleeping a good chunk of time through the night at this point. Emily: And that night, I probably slept one hour. I was just, could not fall asleep next day. I chalked it up to maybe it was something I ate. I just tried to come up with reasons why I couldn’t sleep. And then just assumed tonight I’m going to sleep really good and I’m going to go to bed early because I need to sleep and I need to make up for this. Emily: And so I think that night when I couldn’t fall asleep knowing how exhausted I was, even though my kiddo was asleep in the next room, I just, that’s where it started to, the nervousness around sleep and the anxiousness around sleep really started to perpetuate. Martin: It sounds as though At first, when the sleep disruption showed up, you were yeah this kind of sucks, but, it wasn’t having too much of an influence, but then as it continued, it maybe started to generate more concern and maybe start to feel a bit confusing and a bit mysterious and a bit more concerning the longer it went on. Martin: Was that your experience? Emily: Yes. I had never experienced anything like this before. I’d had occasional sleepless nights like anyone from having to travel the next day or, just the random night. But I really, um, I went to the doctor and told the doctor that I wasn’t sleeping and the doctor, I was nursing my child at the time. Emily: So the doctor gave me something that was. Safe while nursing and that really didn’t work. And it, I went, I want to say three or four nights without getting much sleep. I think I slept maybe one or two hours max. And I’ve just started spiraling and I thought, what is going on with me? Is this going to, the all or nothing thinking, is this going to happen, go on forever, am I losing my mind? Emily: It just Catastrophizing. And I, that’s when I started doing the researching and the Google and looking up postpartum sleep loss remedies and yeah, it just, it became a self fulfilling prophecy at that point. I feel like I just was constantly looking for ways to, and I feel like the more I stressed about it. Emily: The worst it got, and then it, it turned into that sleep anxiety, and that was really severe for me. It got to the point where I would, it would start to be bedtime, and I would start getting my heart racing, and nervous, just felt like I was going into a panic attack mode. It was like, okay, I’m about to race a marathon, but it’s bedtime. Emily: So I think that was the hardest part for me, was the anxiety around sleep at that point. Because there was nights where I would lay there, I was sleeping in another room because my poor husband, I was thrashing around and having these little meltdowns in the middle of the night and he had to get up for work the next day. Emily: And my kiddo, I had to get up and mom the next day. So I think that was also a story that I had created. Like I can’t function if I have to take care of my daughter tomorrow. Yeah. And stories just started to build and build. And my mind just was on overdrive. Emily: And yeah, it just, it was a rough, a very rough patch. Um, and of course, like I had mentioned earlier, I was constantly trying new things. CBD oil. I was trying weighted blanket calcium, magnesium, or magnesium, the calm supplement. Everybody, I was telling everybody about it at this point, and everybody had their opinions and their remedies for it. Emily: And I remember actually, at one point coming across an article, About cognitive behavioral therapy for sleep. And this woman wrote a book about it and I, forgive me, I can’t remember her name, but she had talked about how she did the sleep restriction therapy. And I was like, no way. That sounded like the most painful thing for me in the moment. Emily: I was like, I can’t do this with a four month old baby and try to, because I was thinking in extremes. I was thinking we’re going to get a four hour sleep window here. And, I just wasn’t ready. I had to wait three years to finally put this into practice. So yeah, was, it was a journey for sure. Martin: I think a lot of people listening are going to identify with the way you’ve described the way it can progress, the way this struggle with sleep can progress, where it starts off and it’s, maybe it starts off more as like an inconvenience. Martin: It’s not something you give too much thought to. It’s just Oh okay, I’m going to get on with it. Tonight will probably be a better night or I’ll go to bed earlier tonight. But then when it sticks around, there’s that growth in the concern. It starts to consume more of our focus and more of our attention, which in turn can make it harder for us to focus on other things in our life and to do other things in our life, to concentrate on other things in our life. Martin: And. Because our brain’s number one job is to look out for us, it’s there. Maybe it starts off in the background with lots of different thoughts and feelings and stories and predictions, which over time just get louder and louder and more powerful and more difficult and uncomfortable and more distracting. Martin: And so we’re not just dealing with what’s going on with our sleep, but we’re also dealing with everything that our mind is doing in response. And because often we identify quite rightly, I think that is another potential obstacle to sleep. We’re not only battling with sleep. Now we’re also battling with our mind. Martin: And it’s the longer it goes on, it’s like a snowball rolling down a hill, right? It just gets bigger and more unmanageable. And More difficult to deal with them the longer that snowball is rolling down and I think that’s why it’s so easy to get Stuck and just feel so overwhelmed when this shows up. Emily: Absolutely. I just it was all consuming for sure. Martin: Was there such a thing as an average night back then and you touched upon it was you found it would find it really hard To fall asleep. Was that the main issue or was it also Waking during the night and then finding it hard to fall back to sleep. Emily: It was the falling asleep that was the hardest part for me, and I think that’s why I got such tremendous anxiety around bedtime, because it was like just hours that I would lay in bed, and just the longer it took me, the more I would go into a And, I’ve heard a lot of other stories on your podcast and, just in general. Emily: And some people say they didn’t get that extreme panic like I did, but I realized, after working through it and even in the middle of it, my husband had mentioned, I think you put sleep on too high of a pedestal. And I even did that before this happened. I was ingrained with this idea. Emily: That we need eight hours of sleep a night, for good health and well being. And I think that those beliefs that were really, cemented from early on are what, what made this sleep anxiety so intense for me. And. Yeah, it was just, it was all consuming and I was doing a lot of the whole, like the CBT talks about like black and white thinking all or nothing. Emily: Catastrophizing. I think I was doing it all at that point. I just, I was really in it. Yeah. It was definitely old belief and thoughts. From early on that I think led me down that path because, I have friends that have had sleep issues in their life and they’re like, Oh, I’m just tired. Emily: I’ll just drink extra coffee, and a new day, but I ruminated on it, and then the more tired I was, the more in my face it was, I’m exhausted and I’m so tired. Painfully aware of this. And so I just, yeah, I think that before I had the steps and develop the trust and retaught my brain that, Hey, this isn’t forever, you’re going to get through this and sleepless nights are nothing to be afraid of, but I’ll tell you what I really was living in a lot of anxiety and fear around sleep for Good three years. Emily: And I ended up having to get on choosing to get on a drug, a prescription drug for it to it helped me with the onset of sleep, but it was when that drug on a low dose started to wear off or not work as well that I thought I don’t want to keep staying on drugs the rest of my life, just to sleep. Emily: This is a natural thing. I know that I never had issues with sleep. So why is this a life sentence, and it was when on a vacation, when I noticed that I was not getting the sleep, taking my regular medication that I had to find a different way. And by that point, my daughter was already, a toddler. Emily: sleeping through the night and I took the walk of faith. Martin: There’s two things that you were talking about that really stood out to me there. And the first was how we can often hold ourselves to standards or have expectations about sleep. And When we do that, I think the natural consequence is we can judge ourselves based on whether we met those expectations or beliefs that we had or standards that we had for ourselves. Martin: And the thing about expectations is the best possible outcome really is neutral, because if an expectation happens, it’s ah I expected it to happen anyway. So really. the most likely outcome from having expectations is disappointment, frustration, judgment. What if we were able to flip that a little bit and instead of having expectations, maybe see each night as almost like a fresh start or as a as though we’ve never gone to bed before. Martin: Huh. I don’t know what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen. I’m not holding myself to a certain expectation. And then in the morning, whether we sleep or not, maybe there might be a difference then in how we respond to what happened that night. Maybe we’re not going to be judging how we slept based on certain standards or expectations. Martin: Maybe we might be able to start practicing seeing what happened that night as being something that happened that night. And that’s all it means. And we’re not trying to trick ourselves. If the night was truly awful, we’re still acknowledging that night was truly awful. And that’s what it was. Martin: It was a truly awful night. But that’s all it meant. It doesn’t mean anything else. It doesn’t mean that you’re a failure, that you are broken, that tonight is going to be exactly the same, or that the day, there’s not going to be even one moment of joy during the day. It just means that you had a truly awful night, and I think there can be a difference there when we are able to move away from having those standards or expectations from night to night of how things should be. Martin: Now you’re able to look back a little bit, is that something that you feel you can identify with? Emily: Oh yeah high expectations and feeling like I needed to calculate the time that I slept, and looking back now, it’s Oh man, I’m so glad that’s not something that I need to do anymore. Emily: And I can judge by the way I feel. I don’t need to sit there and go, how many hours did I sleep? Cause I used to wake up and the first thing I would do was look at the clock and calculate the hours. And yeah, it’s sometimes I’ll sleep five hours. It’s four hours and I’ll wake up and I feel pretty rested. Emily: So yeah, then I don’t have to think about it all day, ruminate on it and create stories about it. So yeah, I was definitely, yeah, I had high expectations and I think that what you said about looking things with neutrality, looking at things more neutral is powerful It’s when I create a story about something, it makes it bigger than it is. Emily: Instead of just saying, Oh, or I slept instead of I slept this many hours, I slept, you know, or even the whole, that was a terrible night’s sleep. I slept a little it’s interesting how our, my mind picks up on those little things. and holds on to them. Martin: It is really interesting how the brain works. Martin: It can be so easy to think of our mind as an adversary when it’s When it seems to be working against us, but the truth is our brain is always working for us. It’s just the To get our attention The only way it can really do that Powerfully is by generating really difficult thoughts and feelings and emotions and stories and predictions to get our attention And where this can backfire is because they don’t feel good and then we try and fight or avoid them and then the brain freaks out even more. Martin: It’s hey, I’m trying to look out for you and protect you here. Why are you ignoring me? And so it starts to yell louder and we try and suppress or fight it even more. And then before we know it, we’re completely stuck. Emily: What you said about just allowing those thoughts and feelings was something that really helped me work through all of this. Emily: Because I was constantly looking for solutions to get away from those thoughts and to get away from the heart racing and everything, instead of just surrendering to it and saying, okay, these thoughts are here and it’s okay. They’re just thoughts. These feelings are here. I can get through them. The more I ran from them, the worse they got. So it’s an interesting, it’s just interesting how that works, it’s okay, if I face this. and don’t try to fix it, mellows out. Martin: One thing to note is, it’s completely understandable why you would want to fight or avoid or try and run away from these thoughts and feelings, because they don’t feel good and they can be really difficult to experience. Martin: And I think that pretty much every human being on this planet is hardwired to want to avoid uncomfortable, difficult, unpleasant stuff, and difficult thoughts and feelings fall in that category. So it makes complete sense why. We typically follow that route but like you’ve been talking about, it can so easily just get us feeling stuck because all of our energy and our focus and attention is then just engaged in this tug of war battle with our minds. Martin: I’m not sure we can ever win that battle. that battle. The brain will always be holding onto that rope. We’ll never be able to pull it, pull that rope over the line. But what if, like you touched upon, what if we can just drop that rope? And so the opponent, let’s say the thoughts and the feelings that we, like the anxiety that we’re trying to get rid of, might still be there. Martin: Sure. Just because you drop the rope is not going to get rid of it. But how might things be different if the anxiety is there, but now you’re not just focused. And you’re not using all your energy and your attention on pulling that rope. What if you just put the rope down? Might that free up some energy and attention for other things in life? Martin: Might you be able to notice more of the world around you and open up a little bit more and maybe be better able to do some of the other stuff that’s important to you in life? rather than just everything being on, I’ve got to win this tug of war battle with my mind. Emily: Yeah, that was that was really comforting working through your program when I got to the part where it was like, you know what, just because I had a difficult night of sleep didn’t mean that I need, needed to cancel plans and essentially put my life on hold. Emily: And I think just. I’m just seeing that and putting it to test in my day to day life. And there was days when I started working the program where I was just like dead tired. I was like, I am still going to go for my run. I am still going to go out to dinner with my family. And it got to a point where it was like, I laugh now because I’m sitting there like just delirious and we’re eating and I’m like, I’m a superhero, dammit. Emily: I have slept one hour and look at me. And it got to where it was like reframing my whole thought around sleep. It was like I was basically growing new neurotransmitters in my brain or neural pathways. And I think that, yeah, that’s what started to shift. That’s when I started to see the shift and it wasn’t such a panic inducing thing at night when I couldn’t sleep, and then my brain just finally started clicking with all this new information, but that was a big one for me, just learning to still enjoy the moment and live my life fully. Emily: Even though. I, thought that I needed to be staying home and resting, yet I was just ruminating and perpetuating the anxiety. Martin: I would completely agree with you that, yeah that’s superhero stuff there, and I think that anyone experiencing chronic insomnia is a superhero, just to be able to get through each day when they’re tangled up in such a really difficult struggle. Martin: So I think that’s a great word to use. You might be the first person to use the word superhero on the podcast. I think it’s a very accurate description of anyone struggling with insomnia, whether they’re still finding it really difficult or whether they’ve emerged from it. It doesn’t matter. Martin: Superheroes, every single one of you. And I like how you described Martin: that commitment to engaging in things that were important to you, independently of sleep. How that, it sounds like that wasn’t easy, it often required a lot of willpower and determination, more superhero powers emerging here, right? But as you did that, you started to regain some control back from insomnia. Martin: So you were able to move toward the life you want to live, even while insomnia might have still been present. Even when anxiety and fatigue and exhaustion and all that difficult stuff was still present. But just through those actions, doing things that were important to you, that mattered. And they don’t even have to be big things, right? Martin: You mentioned a few big things, like still going for a run. Maybe we might just go for a walk. Maybe we might just step outside on the front porch for five or ten minutes. Just anything. If we can just do something that moves us toward the life we want to live when this difficult stuff is present, it helps us regain some of that control back over our own lives and it starts to slowly reduce the level of power and influence that sleep and all the difficult stuff that comes with insomnia can have over us. Emily: Yeah. It It definitely took a while. It took me about four or five months to finally just, it’s so funny. It was just like one night. I just went to sleep and the sleepiness was such a lovely feeling that like laying there on the couch, watching TV. Emily: And I just couldn’t even keep my eyes open. I was like, Oh, I like this. So I It was a reassuring feeling because on those nights that were more like particularly rough and I just didn’t get as much sleep. I would remember that day that sleepiness was going to set in because you’re, you’re going to follow your sleep window, you’re going to stay in your sleep window. Emily: But building that empowerment around sleep and knowing that I’m going to be okay, even on the worst days, the worst thing that can happen is I’m just really tired. That was a big one for me. It’s been a while. So all these recollections are coming up, but I had forgotten that. That was a big one for me. It’s I had created so many stories around not getting sleep and being a good mom and, it just went on and on that I, when I realized the worst that can happen has already happened, you’re just tired, and that I think was a big one for me to get my mind wrapped around. Emily: The safety aspect of it, you’re still safe, even though you’re not sleeping, you’re still safe, you’re going to be okay, and I needed that because, that was just, the catastrophizing was just ridiculous for me. Martin: Going back to what we were talking about earlier, where the brain’s number one job is to look out for us. Martin: I think the part of it does come down to reminding ourselves, either with the way we talk to ourselves or through our actions, that although being awake is not what we want to be, we’d much rather be asleep. We are still safe. We’re at home. We’re in our bedroom. Martin: There’s not like a grizzly bear prowling around the house looking to eat our legs. But that’s what our brain thinks because we’ve just been struggling night after night. As far as our brain is concerned, being awake is no different to a grizzly bear stalking around the house. So our brain is on high alert to look out for us and protect us. Martin: And so part of what is part of a different way of responding instead of trying to fight or avoid. all those messages our brain is telling us as it’s trying to look out for us, is exploring actions we might be able to engage in that help train our brain that we are still safe. The, yeah, being awake might suck, we’d much rather be asleep, but it’s not the same as a grizzly bear walking around the house looking to eat us. Martin: And something that you were talking about that you touched upon was How we can feel powerless when we’re tangled up right in the middle of this struggle. But there are things we can do. There are different ways that we can respond that might be worth experimenting with. And in, as people that regularly listen to this podcast know, my philosophy is always related to moving away from trying to control. Martin: And the thing that our experience tells us can’t be controlled. So falling asleep in a certain amount of time, getting a certain amount of sleep, getting a certain type of sleep. Not experiencing certain thoughts and feelings. All of our attempts to do that are completely understandable. But I think most of us when we reflect on our own experience realize that maybe they can help temporarily but over the longer term Perhaps not. Martin: And as we engage in that understandable agenda of trying to control, trying to fight, trying to avoid, it becomes so easy to get pulled away from the person we want to be, or the person who we are, and the life we want to live. We can engage in actions that don’t really reflect who we are. One example might be we cancel on our friends, and that’s something that goes against our values. Martin: We feel really bad for doing that. It sounds like for you medication even was something that you didn’t really want to do, but you found yourself getting drawn into it. And, that’s not to say that medication is a bad thing. It just depends on what someone’s individual values are. Martin: Some people are very comfortable taking medication, and that’s perfectly okay, of course. But some people find that they get pulled into this route of medication or supplements or, I don’t know, weighted blankets, anything, as they just try to, Control sleep, fix sleep, and it’s so easy to end up, to pull us into actions that don’t reflect who we are. Martin: It’s like we get, it’s like a magnet, right? It’s pulling us away from the life we want to live, the more we’re struggling with it. Emily: Yeah, that control aspect was a big one for me. When I started this journey into recovery A big mantra for me was surrender. And I would at night just say to myself, I surrender to whatever happens tonight. Emily: If I’m supposed to sleep, I’m going to sleep. If I’m supposed to get up five times, I’m going to get up five times. And I just really practiced letting go of that control. And I really think that once I surrendered, To the tools of this program. That’s when I started seeing real changes. And, um, I’ve had setbacks, but I just am like, okay, time to start back up with these tools again, and it’s okay. Emily: And don’t freak out like I used to, because I know there’s a workable solution. And. I don’t need to make it bigger than it is just a sleepless night. And I just go through that reassuring my brain again okay, you’ve been through worse and you’ll get through this, so a lot of self talk involved there and it’s helpful. Emily: I remember there would be times where my husband would be laying next to me and I’d be awake and. I’d start doing the self talk out loud because for some reason that just helped cement it in my brain and He’d be like, oh what and I’d say, oh, I’m just talking to myself Go back to sleep. Don’t mind me. Emily: It’s just roll over Yeah, it worked though Martin: It sounds as though that self talk for you involved talking to yourself in a kind way Which might, maybe was different compared to when you were first really tangled up in the struggle, where perhaps you were quite mean on, toward yourself, quite hard on yourself. Martin: And then you started to adopt an approach where you talk to yourself in, maybe a little bit, with a little bit less judgment, a little bit less criticism in a kind of way. More like how you’d talk to a loved one who might be going through this. Emily: Yeah, absolutely. I never thought about that, but, Thinking back to the beginning of when this all started, I would go into these like extremely angry feeling would come over me, the frustration, like I just wanted to go punch a pillow. Emily: I was so frustrated. And then it just became more of a accepting, gentle approach. Yeah, I, I didn’t even think about that, but yeah, I was, and I never would have thought that it was me being angry towards myself, but it was like, I was probably without even realizing it, thinking what’s wrong with you, why can’t you sleep, instead of just saying, okay, this is happening, it’s not your fault. Emily: And yeah, I just never thought of that. Martin: I hope I didn’t put words into your mouth there. It’s just the impression that I got as you were describing it. The, often when we are able to look back and we reflect on how helpful self talk was, it tends to be because we’re talking to ourselves in a kind of way. Martin: If we feel that self talk is helpful, isn’t really helping us, maybe that means or implies that we might be talking to ourselves a little bit more harshly a little bit less compassionately. So yeah, I was just keen to hear if that was your experience, but I hope I didn’t unintentionally put words into your mouth there. Emily: Nope, nope, it actually just made me realize that, oh yeah, I was pretty, pretty hard on myself in the beginning. And I didn’t have the knowledge that I do now. Martin: One word you used earlier was the word surrender. And Sometimes I think that can come with some negative connotations, like it means giving up being okay with insomnia, being okay with anxiety, and it makes sense that a lot of people listening are going to be like, no, I’m not okay with that. Martin: I cannot surrender to this. I will never, I just do not want to accept this. Does this mean giving up? Does this mean that I just have to be willing to experience this insomnia forever with no change and Be happy to have anxiety forever with no change But so I’m curious to hear your idea on If you had to define surrender in this context of the insomnia struggle How would you define it to people that might be thinking? Martin: That just sounds to me like giving up and I’m not ready to give up Emily: well one thing I have to say is I Was following a plan So it wasn’t like I was in the thick of my insomnia, just hanging on by a thread with no guidance. I had the structured plan, but I had to trust, because it wasn’t an overnight fix. Emily: Obviously it took time and it took trust. It took surrender to the outcome. I wasn’t giving up. I was still following this, but I was surrendering to whatever happened, because like you said, dropping the rope felt a whole lot better than this struggle all the time and trying to fight it and fight it. Emily: And that’s what made it so bad in the first place. Constantly fighting against the sleepless night, constantly searching for ways to not feel the way I was feeling, constantly searching for ways to. I running away instead of walking through it. So I feel like that surrender was a saving grace for me. Emily: Like it, it was, it brought peace to me to say, you know what? I am done fighting. I’m going to do what I’m supposed to do and trust what the outcome’s going to be. So I guess it goes more hand in hand with trust or faith. If you want to. You want to take it to that. I’m myself a spiritual person. I know not everyone is. Emily: But for me it, it was a lot to do with faith and trust. Martin: I appreciate you sharing that with me. I think what stood out to me was how we, you bounced back to that analogy of dropping the rope and it, I think really it’s, surrender in this context is surrendering the struggle, really. Martin: That’s how I think about it. It’s about realizing that the ongoing struggle isn’t getting us closer to where we want to be, so how about we surrender that as a strategy and we look to explore some different strategies. Martin: It’s just so important to emphasize that surrender isn’t just about being okay with experiencing this. Martin: It’s, and it’s not about just completely giving up and just saying, Okay, I’ve got it, I’m gonna, I have to be comfortable with having insomnia for the rest of my life. It’s just about giving up whatever’s not working. And. looking to explore and maybe practice a different approach. That’s how I would define it. Martin: But especially just hearing your description of it, I asked you that question without knowing how I would answer it. So I put you on the hot seat there. But I think that this was maybe a helpful discussion for people listening as to what we mean really, when we’re talking about surrendering to, to this difficult stuff. Emily: No, it’s good to clarify, because I do know that some people could misinterpret surrender as defeat or giving up, but to me, it was like what you said, I’m going to drop all this striving that I’m doing and all this stuff that doesn’t work. And I’m going to trust there’s a new way to do this, even though I haven’t seen it work yet. Emily: I’m just going to trust, so I guess that, yeah that’s what surrender for that meant for me, just, okay. I am not, I’m just done. I’m done trying all this stuff. I’m done laying here, tossing and turning. I’m done staying home because I’m tired because I think this is what I need to do. I’m just going to. Emily: Do what somebody else is telling me to do and trust it’s going to work out, not even telling me what to do, suggesting. Martin: On that note, what, you’ve already touched upon a couple of them already. But what kind of changes did you make to your approach? So you mentioned you were struggling with this, trying all different things for, I think you said about three years. Martin: Then. You adopted this new approach, this new plan of action. Now you’re able to look back. What changes did you make to your approach or your response to difficult nights or your response to anxiety that you feel were most helpful that were most valuable to you? Emily: I think now in the beginning it was a little rough, but I started the sleep journal and I started Sleep window, and I made a reasonable sleep window for myself. Emily: And I just stuck with it. I said, if I’m laying here for more than 15 minutes in the tailspin, or, I’m having anxiety, I just got to get out of bed. And at first I wasn’t doing things that I really enjoyed. It was more like journaling or Sitting in a corner of the room. And I realized after listening to one of your podcasts, that this can be a little more pleasurable. Emily: I can give my brain more of a a good memory of what happens when I get out of bed instead of I don’t look forward to this. So I, I know it’s not the best solution for everybody, but I had a. A chick flick that I put on the TV, ready to go. I put the dim light in the living room, almost anticipating that it might happen. Emily: So I lowered my expectations and I would get up and I would cozy up on the couch and just watch this kind of easy breezy TV, nothing heavy, you know? And there were times where it was like, okay, my eyes are heavy, go lay back down. I would lay back down, even though I had the really sleepy feeling and that, that anxiety would kick in. Emily: So it was, it was challenging at first it wasn’t, even though I was sleepy, I was still getting that almost PTSD in a way, because my brain was still used to bed. Being a struggle or bed equating to fighting, fight or flight. So I it took a long time to retrain my brain that bed was a peaceful place. But that helped me having a sleep window, getting out of bed when I was anxious, making it a good, enjoyable environment was key for me. Because I didn’t want to get out of bed, especially in winter and go sit somewhere quiet. This is depressing. It’s lonely. One thing that you touched on that really helped me was when you had said that when our body knows that we need that restorative sleep, it automatically puts us into a deep sleep to make up for the sleep loss. Emily: And that really was reassuring for me. Because I was like, Oh, I haven’t had my REM sleep and I haven’t had my deep sleep and I’m not getting, my neurons aren’t firing together. That kind of a thing. I just had a lot of fear around that. And I remember that was mentioned in an interview or somewhere you had talked to somebody about that, that I heard and I was like, Oh, that’s so good to know that our body is. Emily: Know how to give us the rest we need, when we haven’t had it in a while. So that was big for me. I’m trying to remember the other things. It’s funny. It feels like so long ago now. Emily: Making myself do things during the day that were fulfilling that was a big one too. It’s just, what? I’m going to make the most of this day, even though I’m exhausted, I’m going to make the most of this day. And that was a big one for me because it taught my brain that life is still good when you’re tired. It’s not, Emily: I really did in the beginning, I thought my life is being ruined here. This is messing up my joy, my livelihood. And that once again was an unhelpful thinking way of thinking. Martin: I think the biggest benefit of a sleep window is it’s one of those things that can start us moving away from chasing after sleep. We’re less likely to start going to bed earlier, staying in bed later, in an effort to make more sleep happen. I’m starting to suspect that’s really one of the biggest benefits to having an earliest bedtime and a reasonably consistent out of bedtime in the morning, is it just helps us move away a little bit from that control agenda. Martin: And Doing something a little bit more pleasant whenever being awake at night gets really difficult. That can be so helpful. And you touched upon how you, it’s like you’re training your brain that it’s possible to have a better experience of being awake. You started off by maybe this has to be boring and miserable in order to create the good conditions for sleep. Martin: Again, which is one of those remnants of trying to, of the control agenda, right? Which again is understandable. We often get drawn back into it multiple times, but really all we’re looking to do is move away from that struggle. not struggling quite so much with being awake at night every single night. And one way we can do that is to just engage in an alternative activity. Martin: It doesn’t really matter what it is because our goal isn’t to make sleep happen. We’re not trying to make sleep happen. We’re just trying to experience being awake with a bit less struggle and in turn that might also train the brain again that being awake isn’t a grizzly bear. It’s not a danger to us. Martin: It doesn’t have to be quite so alert to protect us from being awake. And with that in mind, if someone doesn’t even want to get out of bed, I don’t think there’s any need to force ourselves out of bed. We can read in bed. Watch TV in bed, use the bed as a trampoline if we want. It really doesn’t matter because what we’re looking to do is just build a little bit of skill in being awake with a little bit less struggle. Martin: That’s really what our new goal is there. And then you mentioned how just the education side of things. was quite helpful. You found it helpful to understand that our brains control sleep architecture, all the different stages of sleep themselves, the brain takes care of that. And that might not always be visible it doesn’t mean that after a certain number of nights of less or no sleep that we’re going to get more sleep. Martin: Although that does become more likely, there’s no guarantee, but behind the scenes, the way the body compensates and it will generate more deep sleep and it will generate it earlier in the night and spend more time there as a proportion of sleep, for example, if it needs to. And the same with all the other sleep stages. Martin: And just knowing that. Is, I think, another thing that can help us move away from that control agenda. From trying to make a certain amount or certain type of sleep happen. Because it is something that the brain can and wants to take care of by itself. So would you say that was a reasonable summary of the things that you found helpful? Emily: Yeah, I’d say. I think just listening, I also did quite a bit of listening to your podcast when I was doing this program. It was a reassurance for me. So, when I went on walks or jogs, I was listening to your interviews and hearing different perspectives and how many people had gone through to the other side it was a driving force for me. Emily: It was inspiring and it also just kept me pushing. It kept me going. So that was extremely helpful. So I just kind of. Just went in full force. I did the program. I listened to the interviews and just yeah, just changed the way I was doing things like a hundred percent. And it was so nice to learn. There’s just so much knowledge that I gained from listening to all these different stories. Emily: And, um, it just taught me so much about sleep that I didn’t know. And about the habits. It’s the kind of thought patterns that we get stuck in and the way that I was thinking that wasn’t helpful, so I realized, okay, we could try a new approach here and things will change and it’s okay if it’s not right away, but I look back now, when I was starting to feel more confident around sleep and when I noticed that things were shifting. Emily: I was still having little things that were triggering for me or causing anxiety. If I went out with a group of friends and it was getting late, I would start getting that anxiety. Oh, it’s late. I’m getting past my sleep window. I need to get home. Those were the thoughts that were coming in and I would feel the anxiety. Emily: And then now looking back, I don’t even get that. We’ll have late nights. And I just think, Oh, okay. If you sleep less tonight, it’ll be all right. It’s not. It’s not a big deal. So it’s pretty amazing. It’s pretty pretty cool how our brain can change. Martin: Yeah, I completely agree. And sometimes it can feel as though change isn’t possible, but I think change is impossible. Martin: Change is always happening all around us. It’s, but it’s so easy to feel stuck and to feel that things can’t change, but things can change. And this is one reason why I’m so grateful for people like yourself coming onto the podcast to share your experience, because as you found yourself, it can be so helpful to listen to other people’s stories, to realize that you’re not alone, that this isn’t a situation or an experience that you are going through alone. Martin: You might not know other people out there, but there are. Lots and lots of people going through this and in a way, I like to think that when you’re able to recognize that, maybe you can just share that struggle or share that burden a little bit, like with with others, even if you don’t know them, it’s just this might sound a bit abstract, but you’re just sending that struggle out into the universe to be shared amongst everyone else that’s going through this. Martin: Because at any given moment, regardless of what time it is during the night. You’re not alone. There are other people going through this difficulty with you and it can be very easy to lose sight of that. Emily: Yeah it’s a very lonely condition to be in. That was, I think that one of the most challenging parts about it is you’re in the middle of the night. Emily: Who do you talk to, you know? And so it was just like a breath of fresh air, Hearing these stories and, and knowing that I wasn’t going through this alone. And it was, yeah, it was very it was a blessing for me. I’m so grateful that you do this work and that you share it with everyone, and I just found you one night in desperation and I’m like, Oh my gosh. Emily: There’s other people who are telling my story right now, because, when you, when I talk to people in my day to day life, my friends and family, they were scratching their head, or they were offering me the same old stuff that the sleep doctor recommended me or the, I don’t even, I don’t even want to say sleep doctor, all the things, the typical things that they tell you to do. Emily: Oh, dim lights, no screen time. It’s yeah, I’m well aware of this. Martin: How long would you say that it took for you to get to that point where you felt that you weren’t just constantly engaged in that tug of war battle, that struggle with sleep and all the thoughts and feelings that come with it, when you felt, yeah, I feel like this is behind me now, like this isn’t, this isn’t having much power and influence over my life anymore. Martin: I’m in charge of my life now. Emily: I’d say when I really felt confident and less focused on it, I guess was probably around five months. It took me a while because it was pretty intense for quite a while. And I also weaned off the medication to do the program or no, actually I think I was weaning off of it as I was implementing all the tools. Emily: Um, so yeah, it took me a while to to start to feel that way, I’d say around five months. And then within about a year, I remember thinking, wow, I haven’t really thought about sleep in a while. This is nice. And I did for a long time though. I stuck with a sleep window. Emily: Now I don’t really have a sleep window. If I’m tired I don’t try to go to bed to make up for that though. I still go to bed at the same time usually. Even if I didn’t sleep too good the night before. So that’s something that I’ve stuck with. But yeah, I held on to a pretty strict sleep window for a while. Martin: And over those months, was it just, Constant improvement, or were there lots of ups and downs and setbacks along the way? Emily: To be completely honest, about four months, I was struggling. There were nights where I slept a couple hours, and I just said, Nope, I’m already this far in, I’m going to keep going. Emily: And, it was just, it’s strange, it just feels like a shift just happened. It wasn’t like a The anxiety started to go away a little bit. I will say that was gradual after about two months. And then once that anxiety started to lower, then yeah, I was still having sleepless nights, but I remember it just, it’s weird. Emily: I just had a full night’s sleep one night and I was like, okay. And I was getting more and more, I was starting to feel that sleepiness and Yeah, it’s just my brain just, I don’t know, it just shifted. So everybody, I know everybody’s different, but for me it was just a gradual improvements, but it took a while. Martin: Yeah, and I like to ask this because I think it is helpful to realize this isn’t really a quick fix. It often takes time and ongoing practice and part of progress. is setbacks and the return of some struggle. That is inevitable. I don’t think I’ve come across anyone who has not experienced setbacks the return of some struggle, return of difficult nights, the return of the difficult thoughts and feelings. Martin: That’s always going to happen. It’s part of progress. What matters is how we respond. Noticing and being aware of how we’re responding can be so helpful too. Because it doesn’t matter if we find ourselves that we’ve been drawn right back into the struggle and we feel back to square one. It’s never too late to pause, notice this has happened, be kind to yourself because it’s understandable why it happened. Martin: It’s not your fault that you’ve been drawn back into the struggle. And to just refocus attention on that. An alternative way that the way that you want to be moving forward and to just re engage in that direction. That really is what matters is how we respond to this, the return of some struggle or the return of all this difficult stuff. Martin: That dictates whether we continue to move closer to where we want to be or either we get pulled back into that old struggle all over again. Emily: Yeah, the way I think of it is. I’ve had these thought patterns for years, so I have to keep strengthening the new ones. If I start going back into those old channels or neural pathways, I’ve got to go back into the fainter ones and keep digging them, making them thicker and wider and stronger, because it’s just practice, and awareness is a big one for me, being aware of what I’m thinking. Emily: How I’m responding. And when I was listening to all of your podcasts, it was I’m, I’m grateful that I heard a lot of people saying that they had experienced setbacks because then when it was my turn, I was like, okay, this is normal. This, you know, that recovery is not linear. And yeah it’s It’s, it’s just one day at a time in so many areas of my life. Emily: And this is one of them, one day at a time, this present moment is the moment that matters and yeah it’s a journey. Martin: Yeah, absolutely. What’s an average night like for you these days, Emily? Is that, is there such a thing? Emily: Yeah. I actually go to bed later than I used to. Surprisingly, I used to be a, I need to get in bed by 10 o’clock. Emily: And now I’m like, yeah, 11 o’clock. I’ll close my book, and I usually just wake up naturally around seven, Martin: just hearing the difference in the way you describe how a night goes, you can just tell that. it’s just your relationship with it. The way you reflect on it is completely different now. Martin: It’s just effortless. There’s less attachment to it. It’s just yeah, now, I’ve generally go to bed a bit later. I’ll be reading a book and I’ll wake up naturally around about seven o’clock. That’s all that’s all there is to it. Whereas in the past it would be I will go to bed at this time after doing X, Y, Z. Martin: You and there’s so much more analysis and attachment to what it all means compared to how you’re, you describe it now in just maybe you used a dozen words there to describe an average night. It’s such a shift. Emily: It’s just crazy how different things are now, just such a, Oh, I’m just so grateful that I don’t have to worry about that like I used to, take nights that are. Emily: Less sleep as they come and, okay. That wasn’t fun, but, new day. Martin: I like to use the word transformation because I think it is a transformation. It’s a transformation in your relationship with sleep. And, because there’s a transformation in your relationship with sleep, and, the level of power and influence it has over your life, there’s often a transformation just in your life too. Martin: It just becomes so much easier to do the things that matter to you and to be the person you want to be. So I think that maybe transformation is a word that’s overused, but in this case I don’t think it is. I truly believe that everyone that comes onto this podcast, what they’re sharing is transformation. Martin: So I’m really grateful for you coming on. I’ve got one question for you though, just to wrap things up, Emily. And it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel that they’ve tried everything, that they are beyond help, that they will never be able to stop struggling with insomnia, what would you tell them? Emily: I’d say no matter how hard. you’re struggling or how hard things are getting, there is a way out. I’m living proof. I went through a long battle with this and I thought it would never get better. And look, just don’t give up on yourself. Keep trying. Martin: Thank you so much, Emily, for coming on and sharing your experience. Martin: It’s really appreciated. Thank you. Emily: Thank you too, Martin. I appreciate you. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Kirstin began using medication every now and then to help her sleep on Sunday nights. When she faced a big personal challenge that made sleep more difficult, she started to use it more often. The plan was to take a small dose to get her through that difficult period and then stop the medication because she didn’t want to be reliant on something to help her fall asleep. Unfortunately Kirstin found that when she tried to stop taking the medication, sleep didn’t happen. She went without sleep for three or four days straight before reaching for the medication in a desperate attempt to make sleep happen. Kirstin developed the belief that she couldn’t sleep without medication and this created a lot of panic, distress, and confusion. Kirstin became obsessed with sleep. All she could think about was insomnia. Her days were filled with researching sleep remedies and experimenting with sleep-related rules and rituals. Nothing worked. Kirstin tried to stop herself from thinking about insomnia. That didn’t work either. As nighttime approached she would get extremely nervous, scared, and upset. People tried to be supportive but nobody understood what she was going through. Things changed when Kirstin came across the Insomnia Coach podcast and realized that she wasn’t alone. As she listened to the stories of others, insomnia started to feel less mysterious. At this point, Kirstin started to reclaim her life from insomnia. She made and followed through on daytime plans, regardless of how she slept. She prepared for difficult nights in advance so she had alternatives to struggling and battling all night long. She abandoned all her sleep efforts, rules, and rituals. She allowed all the difficult thoughts and feelings she was experiencing to exist — she acknowledged them and allowed them to come and go as they pleased. She practiced being kinder to herself. Kirstin’s journey was not easy. She experienced ups and downs. When things felt difficult she made the conscious effort to focus on actions that would keep her moving toward the life she wanted to live and the relationship with sleep she wanted to have. Kirstin is also applying many of the skills she gained from her experience with insomnia to other parts of her life. And, she is sleeping without medication. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, Kirstin, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Kirstin: Thanks for having me, Martin. It’s really exciting to be here. Martin: Yeah, I’m excited to have you on. I think you’ve got a great experience and a great transformation to share with us. So let’s start right at the beginning. Martin: When did your sleep issues first begin and what do you think triggered those initial issues with sleep? Kirstin: So I think a bit of a complex question, so I’ll break down the answer. I’ve always had this thing, that everyone calls Sunday night blues. I used to For a lot of my life struggled to fall asleep on a Sunday night, but I knew it was happening. Kirstin: So I knew Sunday nights were going to be a bit difficult and I just carried on with my life and it was fine. In May, 2023, I was working extremely hard and I think I was very close to burnout maybe even burnout completely. And I started having this weird, Thing happened where there was nights that came in ebbs and flows where I just completely stayed awake the whole night And I would I thought okay, this is strange didn’t worry about it yet, but I was like, it’s not nice I’m lying there the whole night and My alarm goes off 6am and I haven’t slept the whole night and it was very weird for me. Kirstin: And I was freaking out a bit when it happened, but I was like, okay, it’s fine. It’s gonna carry on as normal. Then at the start of June, I went through quite a big personal challenge. And it lasted for about two weeks. And the first night of this personal challenge, I struggled to sleep. So I was like, okay, definitely. Kirstin: struggling to sleep because I’m just going through a tough time. And there’s a lot of things to work through mentally, et cetera, et cetera. You know what, I’m just going to take a half a sleeping tablet and I’m going to use that to help me get through this little patch. Then I’m going to leave it and I’ll carry on as normal. Kirstin: So for this period of two weeks, I took my sleeping tablet, just a half a one. It was actually Zolpidem, so a Z drug which I never researched how, for lack of better word, hectic or intense it is to take those types of drugs. But I just took it because every now and then when I had Sunday night blues, I would take a half a tablet and it would be fine. Kirstin: So then obviously on just before I left the tablets, I was like, okay, tonight I’m not going to take the tablet after two weeks. And. Obviously in my subconscious, I was like, I need a tablet. I’m not going to fall asleep. So I completely panicked and freaked out when I didn’t fall asleep that night. Kirstin: So I ended up taking a half a tablet and then all the nights following that, I couldn’t sleep if I didn’t take this half a tablet and it really just went downhill from there. Martin: So it sounds as like you initially thought of that medication as this temporary thing just to help you weather the storm and then it seemed once you’d started you had to stick with it or all these difficulties with sleep would reappear. Kirstin: Agreed. And it was almost like a subconscious thing. So it wasn’t like I went to bed that night thinking I’m going to struggle to sleep tonight. I was like, things are fine now. Like things are going to be good. I’m like in a positive space again. And I think just subconsciously, maybe a little bit, maybe you do become addicted to those tablets. Kirstin: But also subconsciously, I just think I thought if I don’t take this tablet, I’m not going to sleep tonight. And I didn’t give myself a chance to even fall asleep because it would be two hours, three hours, and I would just be stressing, getting hyper alerted. Kirstin: It was a very intense period for me. It felt like it was every night. So whenever I didn’t take it, I Wouldn’t fall asleep. So I would try it for About Three, four days. And then after the fourth day, because at that point in time, I didn’t understand insomnia and I didn’t understand this whole, I almost think it’s like a whole different world that you discover. Kirstin: I was really freaked out. I was like, People, when you Google can’t sleep, it’s it’s people use it as a form of torture. And I was thinking, what’s going to happen to me? Oh my word, if I don’t sleep, this is terrible. So I never gave myself like a week or two weeks or however long you need to actually just fall asleep by myself. Kirstin: And I got so panicked in the evenings. Like three o’clock in the morning, I would be absolutely so panicked, crying, distressed, It was really traumatic and terrible. So I think it was every time I tried to not take the tablet, I couldn’t sleep. So I ended up having to take the tablet, the half a tablet. Kirstin: Otherwise like nothing was going to happen for me in my mind. Martin: It’s just so easy to get stuck, isn’t it? Because we understandably do not want to experience being awake when we’d rather be asleep. And we don’t want to experience all those thoughts and feelings and stories and suggestions and statements that are going on inside our minds as our brain is doing its job, trying to look out for us. Martin: It doesn’t feel good, so it makes sense that we want to avoid it. And that can so easily pull us into these behaviours or these actions that we’d rather not be engaging in. For example, Sounds like for you, you prefer, you would rather have not been taking sleeping pills, but it felt like you had no alternative, because otherwise then you had to deal with the wakefulness and all the thoughts and feelings that come with it. Martin: And so we end up feeling stuck, like we’re out of options, what do we do next? And that in itself can then generate even more intense and difficult thoughts and feelings. Kirstin: That’s very true. And I think you make a valid point. I’m a person that doesn’t really like to use a lot of medication. I think it’s necessary when it’s needed, but for me, it was like, I don’t want to be reliant on something to help me fall asleep. Kirstin: So it was almost like a spiral. I didn’t want to take the tablet, but if I did take the tablet, then I was able to sleep. And if I didn’t, I wasn’t able to sleep. So I was almost going in this absolute spiral and nowhere seemed to give me like an answer to this terrible thing that I was going through. Martin: It sounds like it was, in addition to it being difficult, it maybe felt like a little bit confusing and mysterious as well. Martin: Like, why is this happening? Up until that point, I never really had an issue with sleep. So why is this kind of showing up now? And then that in itself can lead to all these new questions. Is there something wrong with my sleep? Is my sleep system broken? Like what is going on here? Kirstin: Exactly that. It was a very confusing time, lonely time. I was beyond myself and I didn’t know what to do. Martin: I think a lot of people who aren’t really familiar with insomnia just think of it as like a nighttime problem. Martin: It’s a struggle during the night, but really, it’s a Daytime struggle too right because we have to deal with everything associated with insomnia during the day like how we feel All the fatigue the anxiety the worry that’s difficult to focus How are you finding? struggle with sleep at night was affecting your days. Kirstin: Oh, it was really terrible. It completely took over. I was obsessed with sleep, researching, Googling actual like not sleeping, but then also the, taking sleeping tablets and reading all these articles of you become addicted to it and you’re going to have to take more and more as your body becomes used to it. Kirstin: So I was, again, just a spiral being filled. Also as soon as the nighttime approached, I was very nervous, very upset. I remember crying a lot. I’ve never cried so much in my life. It was terrible. I think another thing that you raise, I spoke to a lot of people who were trying to be very supportive. I do have a lot of friends and family that are supportive. Kirstin: And I think they have either heard a story or themselves experienced sleep disturbance. And now that I’ve got a bit more knowledge on insomnia, I, for lack of better word and inverted commas, get annoyed when people. Say sleep disturbance is equal to insomnia because it’s really not insomnia is being scared and having a fear To not be able to sleep But what makes it so terrible is that it comes around every single day and every single night So if people are scared of heights and i’m not taking anything away of other fears i’m taking that because that’s the easiest example You can do things to prevent yourself from being in that situation. Kirstin: You can try not fly as much or not go up in high buildings or that type of thing. Almost give yourself a little bit of time to recover and just work through the situation before you faced with it again. However, with insomnia, whatever you do, it comes every single day and you faced with it. Kirstin: Day and nighttime and this fear just absolutely keeps building and that really made my days really difficult another thing that I That I found myself doing quite a lot is having sleep envy During those days when I was so confused and what’s happening with me I would literally walk around and apart from being so obsessed With researching sleep I would be thinking everyone that I walk past I’d be like I wish I didn’t have the sleeping problem. Kirstin: It looks like you don’t have a sleeping problem I don’t know. My mind was playing so many tricks on me. I would literally be wondering is anyone else walking around me that’s also having this problem because no one seemed to, when people were saying to me, sleep disturbances, you just need to relax and, get out of this burnt out position and things will get back to normal. Kirstin: I knew that was not the issue because I knew it wasn’t something else hindering me. It was. Oh my word, I cannot sleep and I’m so scared of not sleeping. And it was really difficult to put it into words. So my days were very terrible. Martin: Yeah. I think you just highlight how difficult it can be. And I think you make a really good point that this is something that it’s almost, we, so we’re dealing with. Martin: All the difficult stuff that comes from the fact that we’re struggling. And then on top of that, we’re dealing with anticipating a whole renewal of that struggle. as the night approaches. And I guess for, maybe for people who aren’t that familiar with insomnia, maybe this, like a parallel would be something like, maybe this is what made the Nightmare on Elm Street movies so scary or so effective was because these terrible things happened in their dreams. Martin: And so these people were trying to avoid dreaming but the fact of the matter is you can’t right if you’re gonna sleep you’re gonna dream So they had this knowledge that every night this thing was gonna happen to stick with the movie theme, I remember when I first watched the Blair Witch Project and I don’t know if you’ve seen it or if anyone listening has seen it, but this group of people and they get lost in the woods and every night is a really traumatic experience. Martin: And I think what made the movie so effective and so powerful was the fact that they’re trying to get out of the forest each day. And as, as it becomes apparent that they’re not, As the audience, you’re watching this and you just start to feel like this anxiety and this discomfort as you know the night is coming and how difficult and how traumatic that night is going to be. Martin: And so I’m really glad that you raised that because I think for people that aren’t really struggling with chronic insomnia, they might not get that part of it. It can be really difficult because you’re dealing with all the stuff as it happens and then you’re preparing yourself for what might happen. Martin: Night after night. Kirstin: Exactly. It was, that was the hardest thing about it. Just not being, it sounds bizarre if you think about it, it’s what do you mean? It’s such a natural thing. And that’s what makes it also so bad because you’re like, Oh my word, am I broken? What is wrong with me? How am I not sleeping? Kirstin: Yes, I know it’s natural. And really. I don’t think if you don’t go through insomnia, you don’t truly understand what it means. You can be supportive for someone and be there for them and learn as much about it. But this thing that happens in your mind of how it takes over and how I used to be a person that, and I guess this comes later on in the discussion of how insomnia has helped me, but I used to be a person that stressed about everything. Kirstin: And when I was going through this insomnia period, I stressed about nothing else but sleep. Everything the whole long list that I always had about life stresses completely went out the window. All I could think about was insomnia day in, day out. And it also becomes all you can talk about and you just sit there and you start crying and it’s I also feel sorry for the people that are around someone suffering with insomnia because I’m sure most of people’s families try to be supportive, et cetera, but it, I feel sorry for, as a person that went through insomnia for myself and other people that have gone through it or going through it, but the people around you. Kirstin: If you just take a step back and look or put yourself into their shoes, it must be something just so you can’t expect them to relate to you because it is something so personal that you only really experience if you go through it. And that was something I only realized and saw like a lot later on in my journey, because in that point in time, all is your insomnia. Martin: Even though you were quite lucky in the respect you had a supportive environment around you, you still felt quite isolated and quite alone in this. Kirstin: Very much. Loneliness and isolation is definitely the best words to describe this experience. Martin: When you were tangled up in this struggle. What kind of things did you try in an effort to get your sleep back on track and to deal with this? Kirstin: Initially when I stopped the sleeping tablets or tried to, wanted to the first thing I did was, okay, I’m going to go to the pharmacy and I’m going to try get some herbal thing. Kirstin: And I remember quite prominently going to the pharmacy and telling this lady that I am struggling to sleep. I don’t want to take, um, intense medication, prescription medication. What herbal things can she offer me? And she decided to tell me this whole long story. And she was like she gave me this herbal medicine to take, but then she was also like, you need to change your life. Kirstin: If you’re not sleeping, there’s obviously something happening. And she was telling me about her own story of not sleeping. And now I know that was sleep disturbance, what she went through. Cause she was saying things like she left her job. She left her country and she ended her marriage because all of these things were causing her to not sleep. Kirstin: And I just think back and I’m like. Oh my word, imagine, like you should be so careful what you say to someone that has insomnia, but it’s a weird thing because if you don’t go through insomnia, you don’t know what to say to them, or you don’t know what the right advice is actually, because You don’t understand it, but her saying those things to me, I obviously didn’t do any of that, but if I was maybe slightly more of a, in a more desperate situation, even though I felt very desperate, it’s very difficult. Kirstin: And you should be very careful what you say to people with insomnia. It was just something that I remembered. And I was like, that was quite a scary thing to just give advice freely like that. But. My days were filled with also trying to think of other sleep remedies. So I would stop drinking coffee and I really like coffee a lot. Kirstin: So I was like, let me give up coffee. Let me drink herbal teas chamomile tea. take a bath, have candles, read before bed, not because I actually enjoy the reading, but because it’s supposed to help me sleep. So I had all these sleep efforts. And the other thing that was quite a big sleep effort, I was like, I’m not allowed to think of insomnia. Kirstin: I call that a sleep effort because I think that is also something A lot of people told me they’re like, just don’t think about your insomnia. Just go to bed, lie there, think about happy things. Think about people like going outside on holiday and just being in the nature, et cetera. So I tried all of that and it actually just made it worse. Kirstin: Cause if you’re telling someone with insomnia to not think of insomnia, it’s actually. So counterproductive. I also started running, trying to exhaust myself, and go to the gym more often. And none of these things were working, and I was becoming more and more desperate, and thinking, Oh my word, now I’m really broken. Kirstin: This is, nothing is helping. And then I obviously had to resort asleeping tablet the whole time. Martin: You make a really good point there about this difference between sleep disturbance and insomnia. And I think that one of the key differences, sleep disturbance is generally more temporary in nature. Martin: And I think it has the characteristic that it’s, We can identify the trigger. So you use the example of like your pharmacist. I think they said when they travel, they tend to experience some sleep disruption. But then it gets back on track either when they’re home or when they’ve adjusted. And that’s the difference is when we experience these temporary sleep disruption, we can generally recognize what’s causing it, and it tends to go away when that trigger or that situation isn’t present or it’s not relevant. Martin: And the difference with chronic insomnia is the trigger might be mysterious, or we might not know why it’s showing up, or we might know when it first shows up. When that trigger was first present, when the insomnia first started, but that trigger now is no longer present, or it’s no longer relevant, but yet the sleep issues remain. Martin: And then there’s a change in our approach to sleep as well, which is a common characteristic of the longer term struggle of chronic insomnia, where we start to put more effort into sleep, where we never really thought, I’ve got to put effort into sleep before, and now we want to fix this problem, and so we’re putting more effort into sleep. Martin: We might have new rules around sleep, like I can’t watch TV in the evening, I can’t drink coffee in the morning. We might have new rituals, like I have to read one chapter of a certain book at a certain time. And we might try and change our thoughts like you suggested. And this is again where we can get so stuck because when all of this stuff doesn’t seem to work, we can start thinking we’re broken, there’s something seriously wrong. Martin: Really, when this stuff doesn’t work, it’s a valuable insight which often is clouded in the fog of the struggle that we’re dealing with. And the insight is. no matter what we’re doing, no matter what we’re trying, doesn’t seem to be getting us unstuck. So perhaps that suggests that our experience is telling us that the more we try, the more effort that we’re putting into sleep, although this effort and all these attempts and all this focus is completely understandable, perhaps that implies that Sleep cannot be controlled. Martin: And the more we continue to try, the more effort we put into it, the more rules and rituals we have around sleep, the longer we’re going to remain stuck. Kirstin: That’s very true. Honestly. I completely agree with what you’re saying and you get into the spiral where you just try more and more rituals and you research more and more on Google and everything is just. Kirstin: going more and more south as you’re in this the spiral and it really affects your mental being and like how you view Just literally everyday life you become so desperate and lonely and isolated as we spoke about earlier. So just being stuck this insomnia thing is a phenomenon where you’re battling with your thoughts and you are stuck until you really do the right thing to try and overcome it, which is, working through the mental aspect of it. Martin: I think battling is the key word that you shared there because I think many of us would recognize that if we’re engaged in a battle, then maybe sleep is less likely to happen. Kirstin: Exactly. Completely agreed. Martin: But again, I think one reason why we can get stuck is because we think if I don’t battle, what’s the opposite of that? Martin: Surrender? And I don’t want to surrender because this is awful to deal with. So again, we feel stuck. We might even recognize the battling isn’t working, but we see our only alternative is surrender, which means a lifetime of this. So we’re stuck in the middle of those two options, which feels completely impossible to deal with. Kirstin: Exactly. And I almost think battling you a little bit more, it’s more known. So you know what’s going on, where If you tell someone that’s not got any context of insomnia and they’ve just started their insomnia that you need to surrender, I think, I know I would have said, what do you mean surrender? Kirstin: And that sounds so extremely scary. Because even just the, one of the things I Googled during this time was people speaking about CBT I and I obviously didn’t know what it means at the time when I was in the struggle. But then, Also, obviously some bad articles written about it, but where they would only let you sleep for two hours and monitor you for a few weeks or months and like each day or each week you would add an hour or something. Kirstin: Like to me, that would have been a thought of surrender, but that sounds even more terrible than this battle that I, that’s known to me that I’m currently facing. So I think This whole surrender thing sounds super scary and it’s so just you don’t understand what that’s supposed to mean at that point in time. Martin: That is a great point. Surrender has so many negative connotations, right? It means giving up it means defeat. Whereas when it comes to insomnia, it’s really more about how workable is the battle, is the strategy of battle proving to be. And if it’s not, is there an alternative approach? Did sleep in the past require all of this effort? Martin: Did it require the battling? And if it didn’t, can we get to a place where that’s not required again? And surrender isn’t about giving up. And it’s not about defeat. It’s about exploring a different way forward that doesn’t involve battling. That doesn’t involve struggling. I’m curious because tried so many things, did a lot of research. Martin: When you came across my work, what was it that you felt, either stood out or was appealing or was different or captured your interest compared to all the other material and information that’s out there? Kirstin: I remember the day so well. It was a weekend that my partner and I were actually visiting some family. Kirstin: And. I was drinking my sleeping tablets and I was on actually other medication that my psychiatrist prescribed to me. And she was even saying to me, oh my word, she doesn’t understand how this stuff doesn’t knock me out. So then I was even in a worse place. But then my psychologist that I was seeing, who I was also seeing to try and help me through this, I literally, I tried everything. Kirstin: It was crazy. She said to me, Go and YouTube or Google since you love googling so much and go and check out Sleep anxiety and honestly, I am so grateful for her to have said that to me because she’s not a sleep expert but she gave me that advice and I went and I was like, okay, I mean Let me just try this. Kirstin: And I came across one of your videos and I watched it. And it was actually the video with Maria and honestly, I watched that video so many times. So if Maria is out there and she’s ever listening, just thank you for your story, Maria. She was just saying so many relatable things. And for the first time. Kirstin: I feel like very few times in life you have this aha moment and that video was honestly just made me relax so I listened to this video felt such relief for the first time didn’t feel so lonely Hearing that people didn’t sleep for days. I was like i’m not the only one in this world that’s experiencing this absolute terrible thing. Kirstin: So hearing her going through her stories, and I think why her story also stood out to me was she spoke a lot about going off medication and she was on medication. So for the, it was a really relatable story to me. So I really was so intrigued by this, but then also my problem solving mind afterwards would be like, No, surely not. Kirstin: It can’t be it like, surely you need medication and stuff to fix this. Surely it can’t be like just a mental thing that you need to work through and, do this acceptance and do everything that’s in your course. But it was cool and weird at the same time, because for the first time I felt relief. Kirstin: But then also I was like really questioning this. And I didn’t know how to apply any of the things. I think now looking back to that moment, it was, it’s really cool to look back to that moment now. Kirstin: Because it was actually a life changing moment. Martin: That’s really powerful and it’s one reason why I’m so grateful for people like yourself coming onto the podcast to share your story because like we talked about earlier it can just feel so lonely and isolating and scary and to hear other people’s experiences, how they’re, how they struggled, the fact they got through it. Martin: You can really identify with so much of what people talk about. And you do realize that you’re not alone. There’s it doesn’t necessarily make things easier. Like it’s still difficult what you’re dealing with, but it’s almost like that burden is now being shared a little bit. with others who are out there, you realize you’re not alone. Martin: And you also realize that maybe there’s that glimmer of hope that if other people are going through what you’re going through and have come out the other side, then perhaps you can too. And now, of course, your problem solving mind will probably be coming up with all the kind of what ifs, what if you’re the exception? Martin: Yes, but this person had this or did this, you’re a little bit different here as it’s trying to look out for you. So you, on one hand, you have that kind of relief. And then on the other hand, you have your brain going what if still now, what if this doesn’t work, then you’re all out of options. Martin: So we’re still dealing with all these difficult thoughts and feelings, but just realizing you’re not alone, that your experience isn’t unique or even unusual can be so helpful. Kirstin: Something that you said now that I think is really important is this whole thing of you thinking you’re the exception. I remember, I know I could relate to this one particular video very well, but my problem solving mind would try and search for exact similarities to myself and other people in other videos. Kirstin: So I would have this relief that, okay, maybe there is something out there that can help me. But then I almost wanted to marry back my story exactly to someone else’s story. And of course that’s not how it works. It’s a bit, everyone’s story is a bit tweaked in different ways, but it was just so interesting now that I can look back and analyze the situation of how extreme your problem solving mind can really be. Martin: It’s always so much easier to look back on this in a different context, right? And you’re able to more easily pull out these little insights and actions and behaviors that may not have been helpful or that were helpful. It’s just a completely different context, right? And it’s great that you’re able to look back on that and reflect on this and to share your insights with others by coming onto the podcast. Martin: So I’m curious when you found these videos, you related to other people’s stories. Of course, information is just one part of the puzzle, right? We can consume all the information in the world, but unless we do something with that information, it’s unlikely that we’re going to experience much change. Martin: What changes did you make in response to this new approach or this new direction that you uncovered? Kirstin: I watched all these videos and I had a to do list of things. I’m careful to say to do list cause you don’t want to actually say any of those types of words with insomnia, but there was at least like a plan to follow and that was, okay, firstly, I’m going to. Kirstin: Wean myself off any medication if I’m going to do this plan. I want to do it on my own Through my own ability without something helping me because I knew if I had to stay on the sleeping tablets and if this worked because I now finally had a bit of a Glimmer of hope I would be thinking oh, it’s only working because i’m applying it with taking medication So I slowly I weaned myself off the medication Watch the videos during the day. Kirstin: And then I, the first night I said to my husband, I was like, I’m going to just, If I can’t sleep tonight, I’m going to get up and I’m going to go to the lounge. You don’t need to worry about me. Because he would always be quite worried. If I get up because obviously he knew this was such a traumatic thing that I was going through and you would, try to chat to me or, support me. Kirstin: But I said to him, I need to take a step back from. everyone around me, i. e. family and friends in terms of taking advice and just talking about the sleeping thing. I don’t want to talk about it. I’m going to take a step back and I’m going to try and follow this plan that I found. Kirstin: This was my I had to try this. This was worth a shot because I just couldn’t carry on how I was carrying on. It was just so lonely and depressing and so many people were saying that this worked for them. So the first night I, it didn’t work. But I knew that was probably going to happen. Kirstin: It wasn’t going to just happen overnight. The second night I was also still struggling to sleep. And I think in those days, I think I emailed you and I was asking you questions cause I was seeking reassurance cause I was thinking, okay, no, but I saw these videos, but now it’s not working. I need some reassurance, but anyway, I didn’t cancel any of my plans. Kirstin: I remember I had a friend visiting and I was like, I haven’t slept for two days, but I’m still going to see this friend. In all the videos that I’ve watched, they say, don’t cancel your plans, just go. And I was really fatigued, but I still went. And on the third night, the magic happened. And for the first time in months, I slept without any tablets on my own for about six hours. Kirstin: And I was like, no, this can’t be. I remember being so shocked, but so happy when I woke up that morning, I was. So happy, but obviously then as the night time approached again, I was like, Oh no, maybe that was a one off cause I was really tired. And for about a week, I actually fell asleep every single night. Kirstin: I had my comfy corner on the couch. I set it up every night before I went to bed. And I knew that if it didn’t happen tonight, I had a place to go and I had a plan and I wasn’t going to worry about being awake the whole night. So that’s where this whole struggle then started to. Like the pressure started to alleviate a bit Martin: just knowing that you had an alternative you had a plan in place so whereas before When sleep just wasn’t happening, it would just create Struggle because you had no options No kind of plan of action for what to do in response other than what maybe you’ve been doing up to that time Which was trying to think about? Martin: change what you were thinking or putting pressure, putting effort into sleep, trying really hard to just make sleep happen, clear your mind. Now you have this alternative plan that said if I’m awake and things start to feel difficult, I can just move to the couch and maybe I can read, or maybe I can watch TV. Martin: And really that’s what it’s all about, right? Because what you’re doing there is you are giving yourself the opportunity to reloan or to rebuild that skill in experiencing being awake with a little bit less struggle. Because we can, the more we struggle with being awake at night, the more difficult it becomes. Martin: And the more we might be training our brain that being awake at night is a threat, it’s a danger, it needs to be alert to protect us from being awake. And that in itself then makes sleep more difficult. So you’ve got this alternative plan that helps you practice being awake with a little bit less struggle in a slightly more appealing way. Martin: Now it’s probably not going to lead to you feeling this overwhelming sense of joy that you’re awake. But if it just helps you practice being awake with a little bit less struggle, that’s perhaps going to be more appealing. And continuing to struggle. Kirstin: 100%. Martin: And it also, perhaps, over time helps to train your brain that yeah, when you’re awake it still probably sucks. Martin: You’d much rather be asleep, but it’s not a physical threat. It’s not a danger. And the brain learns this because if it was a danger, then you wouldn’t be reading a book, watching TV. You’d be engaged in the struggle. And I think that’s where the difference is. In that context, a lot of people say to me, I don’t want to get out of bed when I’m awake. Martin: And I say to them you don’t need to. Really, what the goal is just to practice experiencing being awake with a little bit less struggle. If you don’t want to get out of bed, Feel free to stay in bed and just explore ways of being awake with a little bit less struggle. So you might read in bed instead of reading out of bed. Martin: You might even watch TV in bed, which is crazy when you read all of the stuff that’s out there that says you cannot do anything in bed other than sleep. But really the nuts and bolts of it is insomnia is a struggle problem. It’s kept alive the more we struggle with it. By having an alternative option of responding to wakefulness that involves a little bit less struggle can help us start moving away from feeling stuck, from being in that hole of insomnia. Martin: And it sounds as though that was your experience, if I’m hearing you right. Kirstin: That’s correct. That’s absolutely right. And also as my recovery journey progressed, I was quite fluid. It’s a good point that you made that you don’t have to get out of bed. So definitely at the start, that was something I definitely did. Kirstin: But as it went on, I thought to myself I’m going to be fluid with this. And sometimes I would read in bed or I would just Lie in bed and do some of the exercises from your course, or I would watch my series in bed. So I then made it very fluid so that I didn’t want to be boxed into anything. Kirstin: When I started understanding insomnia, I was like, I need to be fluid because I need to be able to deal with anything coming my way and need to be able to work through it. Martin: I think that Being more flexible in how we respond is one of these indicators that something is changing. Martin: Because when we’re really tangled up in that struggle, it seems as though we’ve got no options. That the only thing we can do is resist and fight and battle, and understandably to try and fix this issue. That’s the only way we can respond. There’s only one possible response. But then as we start to move away from the struggle, we realize we do have alternative options that we can respond in a slightly more flexible way. Martin: And one way is we can get out of bed, or we can stay in bed, we can read, or we can watch TV. And we can respond the next day in different ways too. This can be really difficult because we can feel exhausted and fatigued and stressed and anxious and depressed and worried. So our brain is screaming at us to do less, to withdraw from life. Martin: And unfortunately, that rarely makes things easier, especially over the longer term. If we’re able to somehow just push through that, even if they’re tiny actions, and just do some things that are important to us, that matter, no matter how small they are, then, again, we’re responding in a more flexible way. Martin: And We are giving ourselves the opportunity to keep moving toward the life we want to live, to keep doing things that matter, even when the insomnia is still present. And the more we can do that, I think the more we also perhaps train the brain again, that wakefulness isn’t something you need to be quite so alert to protect me from. Martin: I can still do some of the things that matter to me, that are important to me, even after difficult nights. And, when you’re able to continue to practice this, you do start to generally notice things change and sometimes it can be this really insightful moment, like you shared, like that first night when you sleep without medication. Martin: And other times it can just be, It can be less of the aha moments, but more of just things slowly start to change. You start to notice you are able to do more of the things that matter independently of sleep. You notice that maybe there’s a little bit less fear and trepidation rising as the night approaches because you’ve got an alternative plan in place. Martin: You’ve got alternatives to just endless struggle. Um, yeah, I really appreciate you, you sharing that experience and that insight with us. Were there any other changes that you made to your approach other than, having that alternative plan for dealing with wakefulness when it showed up and trying to follow through with your plans or continuing to do things that mattered to you? Kirstin: I think I definitely threw all the sleep efforts out the window so that I went back to drinking my coffee didn’t need to do all these sleep rituals and be, do this at a certain time before bed, be calm put on candles. If I put on candles, I would put on candles because I actually wanted to, not because it made me sleep. Kirstin: And I think the other thing to, to stress was that It didn’t just become like that first, I would say, first week it was amazing and I was on this almost like this high, in this cloud of just being so happy. Like I’m seeing everything in color again after struggling for so long. But the speed bumps are very real and this You have to keep applying everything that you learned. Kirstin: I, I had a few months where I had to implement this and I had speed bumps and I had to each day dedicate to change the way I was thinking. So I think one thing I changed was just how I was thinking and not applying all these sleep rituals and also trying to be. excited about life in general. And also when I had things that were going to freak me out, like a speed bump or dealing with, if you have family over or other people staying over thinking about how am I going to deal with my insomnia tonight? Kirstin: If I’ve got people staying in my house. Going through all of those things and working through them also really helped me and helped generate positive thoughts as to how to work through it and not be so scared. So I think I just, I really changed my mentality of how I thought about insomnia and how I thought about going through the day and preparing for nighttime. Kirstin: But I didn’t really, I didn’t change anything else specifically. I didn’t incorporate something or take something away other than what I’ve already done. Martin: I’m glad you mentioned those the speed bumps or the ups and downs on the journey because they are a part of progress. Setbacks are a part of progress and they can still be quite crushing though, right? Martin: Especially when we feel like we’re making this. stretch of progress and things are looking up and then some difficult nights show back up, it can be quite crushing and we can feel like this isn’t working, I’m back to square one, maybe I should give up and go back to the struggle, we might even get pulled back into the struggle. Martin: But really what matters is how we respond because it’s we’re always going to have these setbacks, there’s always going to be difficult nights, what matters is how we respond to them because we have a choice. We can respond in the old way and maybe we can reflect on our own experience there and ask ourselves how workable is that as an approach? Martin: Or we can pause and give ourselves a moment and then decide if my experience is telling me that the old way wasn’t that helpful, maybe I should just continue on. And just continue focusing on actions that help me move away from the struggle and toward the life I want to live. And it’s not easy. Martin: And it’s natural and it’s human to get pulled back into the old struggle. To get pulled back into the direction that moves us away from where we want to be. But no matter how far we get down that road, we can always stop. We can always turn around. We can always be kind to ourselves in response, because it’s normal for us to get pulled in the wrong direction. Martin: And we can change direction, no matter how far down that road that we didn’t want to take, we’ve gone. We always have that opportunity to stop, pause, notice what’s happening, and change direction. And that’s really what matters. Kirstin: I completely agree with you. And I think especially on my recovery journey I was hoping and expecting to, I’m quite an efficient person and I like to, get things done and that type of thing. Kirstin: So I was thinking, okay, maybe I’m going to struggle for a couple of weeks, a month or so, and then things are going to just go right back to normal. Again, like how I thought if I just stopped the sleeping tablet, things are going to just go right back to normal. And I think I should stress that I had a lot of setbacks or speed bumps in my journey. Kirstin: And each one feels more terrible than the last one because your problem solving mind is telling you all these things of why this one is different and why this one is going to, destroy your journey and everything that you’ve learned. Kirstin: I just try to, when I had these difficult nights and setbacks, I would go back, remind myself of all the teachings from your course. Kirstin: And it was a difficult journey and it really was not linear. It was very bumpy and it was hard. Kirstin: It was just really hard sometimes. But I had the tools to help me. And that is what I was so grateful for. I was never back in that very desperate moment because although I might have been sad that I was experiencing these setbacks, I wasn’t so desperate because I knew that it could work. There is a way out. Martin: I’m curious on the subject of all the difficult thoughts and the stories that the brain comes up with when things are difficult. Did you find that how you responded or your relationship with them changed as you were on this journey? Martin: Perhaps at first, again, you were maybe trying to battle with those thoughts, trying to fight them, trying to avoid them, and then maybe as you practice a different approach of, I think you said the word, detaching from them a little bit, maybe being more able to just acknowledge them, make space for them to exist, be more of an observer of them rather than getting tangled up in a kind of tug of war battle with your mind. Martin: Was there a change in that relationship or that approach? Kirstin: Most definitely. Yes. And I think that was one of the Most valuable things I learned from your course, because like I said, I mentioned previously that one of the sleep efforts that I was doing was I’m not allowed to think of insomnia or that I have this problem, or I always try to avoid thoughts. Kirstin: And I remember thinking, how am I going to get through insomnia? Trying to. Am I supposed to pretend like I didn’t have it? How do I get rid of this thought? Like you can’t, if you’re thinking of something the whole time, it’s very impossible to not think about it. And if you’re putting pressure on yourself to not think about it, you’re going to think about it. Kirstin: So I was like really confused with this idea of am I supposed to just forget that I have had this problem or like everything that’s happened to me. And. I think what I did with my thoughts and what I could incorporate to other stresses in life, I saw myself doing as I was carrying on is actually just welcoming those thoughts in and allowing them to exist. Kirstin: So anything that I was stressed about, I was like, okay, bring it on. Okay. I’m stressing that I’m going to have another setback. Okay. Bring it on. Let me just allow that thought to exist. And I could again just separate myself from that thought and that helped me immensely. Just being able to not chase the thought away, completely allow it, almost say to your thought, okay, cool. Kirstin: Like I get you. I get that you, you scared about tonight or that you’re not going to sleep or that you’re going to have to go through all these things and it’s fine. Just chill there or just mellow there. You’re allowed to exist. And I just try to. Go on with my day knowing that this thought is going to be there. Kirstin: And I was actually just okay with the fact that thought was going to be there. And it brought me so much calmness to just allow these thoughts to move around in my head and just chill there as I would like to call them. Martin: If someone’s listening to this and they’re hearing you say talk about The benefits or this change of approach of welcoming difficult thoughts and feelings or giving them permission to exist. Martin: And they’re thinking to themselves, I don’t want to welcome them. I don’t want to give them permission because they’re awful to deal with. How do you respond to that? Kirstin: That is a very good question. I think one thing that, that I learned was you don’t have to, you Enjoy the struggle or the battle that you’re going through. Kirstin: If you just fear it a little bit less, then you can see some progress. Or you can learn to have some calmness in the storm. I would just encourage those people to really just open their minds to really take this approach. You have to take a bit of a leap of faith. You have to, buckle up and go on this journey. Kirstin: But again, you don’t have to enjoy it. So maybe it makes them feel better knowing that they don’t have to enjoy letting these thoughts go all around, but you just live with it for a little while and have the hope. That it is going to get better because sometimes nothing easy comes without a bit of a struggle. Kirstin: And I think it’s just, there’s hope that it will get better. You just have to, be brave and just try it. Because you have nothing to lose by just trying it. And if it is difficult, It’s because it is meant to be difficult and you just eventually, through practice, you get there. Kirstin: So I would just encourage them to, just be brave and try and embrace it. Because there’s no other way to do it than just to actually do it. Martin: I think you made a really good point there that welcoming or giving these difficult thoughts and feelings permission to exist the same thing as enjoying them. Martin: The difference is we’re just creating less resistance. We’re making more, a little bit more space for them to exist. And sometimes it can be helpful to just ask yourself, openly, kindly and honestly, what might be the benefits to this? To lowering the resistance level just a little bit, especially if your own experience tells you these difficult thoughts and feelings are going to show up anyway. Martin: What might it be like to experience them showing up, if they’re going to do that anyway? But you’re not adding that struggle, that resistance on top. Instead of battling with them when they turn up, you’re maybe just being more of an observer of them. And so I’m really glad that you raised this idea of giving thoughts and these feelings permission and welcoming them isn’t the same as enjoying them. Martin: We’re not trying to trick ourselves here. What we’re trying to do is just reduce our level of struggle with them. Reduce the power and influence they have. Reduce the amount of attention and focus and energy they’re consuming when they show up. And it’s not easy. And it does take ongoing practice. So yeah, I’m really glad that you shared that. Martin: I think that’s a really important thing. And interesting point that you made that welcoming is not the same as or giving permission is not the same as enjoying these difficult thoughts and feelings because they’re still difficult. It’s just we’re not piling on struggle on top when we adopt this alternative approach. Kirstin: Completely agreed that was something that really was significant in my journey when I made that, that mind shift. And again, it doesn’t come after the first or second time that you implemented it’s practicing it over and over again. And eventually your brain just calms down. And I think that is the big thing. Kirstin: It just starts to really not freak yourself out so much. Martin: Yeah. And I think one, One reason why that might be the case is when we give a little bit more permission for this stuff to show up, we acknowledge our thoughts and our feelings rather than just immediately start battling with them, is The brain then knows that we’re listening. Martin: The brain, our brain is always doing its number one job of looking out for us. And as it tries to look out for us, it’s going to try and get our attention for things that it perceives as a threat. And one way to do that is to generate really uncomfortable thoughts, feelings, and stories. And, if we, quite understandably take an approach where we try and fight or avoid those thoughts and feelings, then the brain can really start to panic because it’s generating these thoughts and feelings for a reason to try and look out for us. Martin: And then if we respond by trying to ignore it or trying to resist, Then the brain gets really worried, and it starts to yell louder, and it generates even more difficult thoughts and feelings, and things get even more difficult, and then we respond with more fighting, more battling, more struggling, and the brain is going, getting even more and more powerful. Martin: So taking this alternative approach of lowering those barriers a little bit, acknowledging them, being kind to ourselves, making space for these thoughts and feelings to be present. Because they’re going to show up anyway, trains the brain that we’re listening. Kirstin: Exactly. Key to the success is really just really engaging with your thoughts and allowing them to exist. Kirstin: Because you can’t pretend like it’s not there. You have to find a way to cope with it and work through it. And all the teachings from your course gives you those tools. To be able to work through it. And maybe afterwards you even find that this horrible traumatic thing Because it is traumatic for me. Kirstin: That’s a word that I used to describe it. It was Really traumatic. Maybe the teachings that you learn from it you can implement to Make other parts of your life successful and that’s truly What I believe. You can gain from insomnia. And it’s exciting. There’s an element of excitement to it as well. Kirstin: When you get to understand these teachings and allow these thoughts to exist because it goes further than just where you are at that point in time. And you will it’s, again, it’s not a, you’ve got it and then you can just go and that’s how you’re going to apply it. It’s, A few days you maybe got it, then you could slip back a little bit, because it’s difficult to apply that frame of thinking, and life happens there’s difficult things that happen during your day, maybe at work, or when you’re out, or, I don’t know, whatever you’re doing, it’s not gonna be easy to apply all those thoughts. Kirstin: Every day, but if you’re kind to yourself and what is being kind to yourself mean go that do something for yourself I don’t know whether that is making yourself a cup of tea and just sitting there or Buying a coffee from your favorite coffee shop or something like that. Be kind to yourself on the difficult days but know that an easier day will come again and just trust the journey a little bit Martin: How long would you say it got to a point where you felt that you were just no longer engaged in that constant struggle with sleep when you felt as though insomnia and all those thoughts and feelings that come with it were losing their power and their influence over your life? Kirstin: It was probably six or seven months. Where it started to alleviate. Where I don’t fear sleep or not sleeping. I know it could happen. Cause it happens to everyone, whether you suffer from insomnia or not, but it’s not a, like I don’t get into bed fearing that I’m not going to sleep. So that took about six or seven months. Kirstin: And again, I’ve seen videos where some people it takes quicker. Some people it takes longer. There is no right answer because it depends. You experience the journey and it could take you a year. It could take you two years. And it could flare up again at some point, but it probably took me to just get over that horrible fear and getting used to setbacks and not seeing them as setbacks. Kirstin: It was about six or seven months. Martin: Yeah. I like to ask that question because It’s important to emphasize this isn’t really like a quick fix. Very few people notice that everything is transformed in a few days or a few weeks. It is often we’re looking at months, right? Because it takes, really what we’ve been talking about is a skills. Martin: They’re action based skills and they require practice. It might be like we want to learn how to play the piano or no one’s going to learn how to play the piano in a few weeks. We might feel really good and make that we’re making lots of progress pretty quickly in a few weeks, but then there’s going to be setbacks where it feels like we just can’t do this and it’s going to take. Martin: ongoing practice, keeping on taking actions that just keep us moving in the direction we want to be heading. And as long as we’re heading in that direction, sooner or later we’re going to get to where we want to be. It’s just a case of keeping on going, heading in that right direction through consistent practice and consistent actions that are going to get us there. Kirstin: Exactly. I agree with you 100%. Martin: So Kirstin I really appreciate the time you’ve taken out your day to come onto the podcast. I do have one last question for you which I’m keen to hear your answer to. And it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, they’re beyond help, they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia, what would you say to them? Kirstin: Oh I would just say to them. There absolutely is hope. I’m actually excited for them because the journey can only get easier from here. If you apply the teachings from your course I think. I’ve learned so much from my insomnia struggle. Kirstin: And I think I’ve touched on it during this video, just in terms of how I deal with other stresses in life. Nothing is so big that you can’t, separate your thoughts. Because your thoughts are always going to try and make you scared or prep for the worst or that type of thing. Kirstin: You can really apply this teaching to so many parts of your life. And I would just say there is hope and you can get over it. You really can. And you just need to be patient and you need to go through the ups and downs and also just embrace this time because you’re gonna get through it if you apply everything that you can teach through this course and through all the videos and then it’s going to be so nice to look back and just see how much you’ve progressed as a person and how you’ve gotten through this really traumatic, terrible thing. Kirstin: Cause I’ll stress again. It, I know it’s terrible. It really is traumatic and it’s terrible if anyone is, going through it right now. But I just cannot stress as other people in other videos stressed and I watched it over and over again. There is hope and you really can get through it. And you just need to be patient and keep going and you will get there and be really kind to yourself. Kirstin: I was serious when I said, do the little things. Everyone has something small that makes them feel better. If it’s like I said, a cup of tea or a cup of coffee, it doesn’t need to be big because you can’t do big things all the time to make you yourself feel better. It’s the little things, do little things to make yourself feel better and. Kirstin: Embrace this course and these teachings because I truly do believe this is the way that you can get past your insomnia and you really can. I thought it was impossible. I was in such a desperate place. But it’s actually really exciting and there’s a lot to look forward to on the journey. Martin: That’s great. Martin: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to come onto the podcast Kirstin. I’ve got no doubt that hearing your story and your experience is going to help a lot of people. So thank you. Kirstin: Thanks, Martin. It was such a pleasure. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. Mentioned in this episode: From the Insomnia Coach Podcast: How Maria faced the fear of insomnia by allowing it to exist and discovered that all its power came from how she responded to it (#49) I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

When Summer experienced consecutive nights of insomnia, sleep started to consume her life. She started taking time off work and she began endlessly researching sleep. Summer felt that if she could get rid of anxiety and stress things would improve — but this led to even more of a struggle as Summer went to war with her mind. Sleep became an obsession. It was all she could think about. Summer felt as though she was losing control. She felt helpless. She started to blame herself. It was becoming increasingly difficult for her to live the life she wanted to live. The more Summer tried to fix her sleep, the more she seemed to struggle. Sleep-related rules and rituals didn’t work. Changing her diet didn’t work. Changing the temperature in her room didn’t work. Trying to eliminate blue light didn’t work. Ultimately, what worked for Summer was not trying. She realized that she couldn’t control sleep. And, by no longer trying to make sleep happen, she started to struggle less with sleep and she had more energy to live the life she wanted to live. Summer also started to be kinder to herself. She stopped trying to fight or avoid the thoughts her mind would generate as it did its job of looking out for her. She acknowledged her thoughts and feelings and allowed them to come and go. She expanded the focus of her attention. She spent more time with friends. She lived by her values. Summer stopped trying to control sleep and she stopped trying to control her thoughts and feelings. As a result, sleep no longer controls Summer’s life. Thoughts and feelings no longer control Summer’s life. Summer controls her own life. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, Summer, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Summer: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Martin: Let’s start as always right at the very beginning. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about when your sleep problems first began and what you think might have caused those initial issues with sleep? Summer: They started in February of 2017. So I have a very specific date in mind for when I noticed that I had sleep problems. these types of problems with sleep. Um, I think I probably had sleep issues long before then, but it wasn’t something that I thought about or gave any attention to. Second week of February 2017, I, um, experienced, I want to say four, but it might’ve been five nights of no sleep, not even an hour. Summer: For four or five consecutive nights, I didn’t know it was possible to go without sleep for that long. So I, for the first time, had to go into the hospital. And I saw a doctor as well who prescribed a low dose of Valium I’ve never taken. that in my life. Um, and that got me sleeping again for a while. I didn’t even take the entire amount. Summer: I think I took two or three tablets and, uh, the sleep issues just continued. They persisted. Um, I haven’t had a week where I’ve gone four consecutive nights or five consecutive with no sleep since that particular incident. But, um, It, that was the start. And it’s, I have a very palpable memory of that. It was a extremely busy time for me work wise. Summer: Um, I think I was working. About nine hours a day with a, I want to say between 10 and 15 minute break. Um, and barely got to take that break. I was teaching and, uh, just was very inundated with, with responsibilities during the day. And then I was driving between 90 minutes to two hours. Um, in rush hour traffic, both ways, morning and evening. Summer: Um, and it just, I remember feeling so much dread. I loved my job. I do love to work and teach, and I love being in the class and being with students that work in the university. Um, it’s not like I’m working with Children who are exhausting me. And that particular month, February 2017, um, and that second week of the month. Summer: Just hit me really hard and, uh, it was the first time I think ever in that job that I have called in sick and then not been able to come into work, which caused me even more stress, which I think continued. I was thinking I would just take one day off. That also caused me to start, Investing a lot of time into researching online and it just, it really turned very quickly into an obsession. Summer: Um, it was, I mean that this, and I thought that I would get over it maybe in, you know, six months or so. I just kept thinking if I could get past the next hurdle, whatever it was that was causing me to be anxious or stressed in that moment, I thought if I could get past it, the sleep would return and I continued to just be up and down, but I think it was more the obsession. Summer: It was more than the time and focus and attention I was giving it. Um, obviously I. was still working and functioning and driving a car. And but my life really, um, took a turn for the worse that just the quality of life drastically reduced after that incident because of the fear. And then my obsession with trying to figure out how I could control sleep to prevent that from ever happening again. Martin: Yeah, which I think is completely understandable just based on your description of everything that you went through. Summer: I’ve been busy before. Um, I’ve flown across the international date line. Used to live in Australia and I, I’ve been over the ocean. Uh, six times, I guess, back and forth. Yeah, so I lived, I lived there and I would go back and forth between the U. S. and Australia. That’s about as far away as you can go without coming back. I know what jet lag and sleep deprivation feel like, and I didn’t die. I didn’t become obsessed. Um, I’ve been exhausted in other situations and circumstances as well. And this I think was the only thing that I can think of was that I felt like I didn’t have time to even eat or go to the bathroom in the day. Summer: Um, the work load for that month, that month of February was so intense. And then the driving to and from. And just the expectations that I felt were on me, which I think in all fairness, I was putting the expectations on myself. I took more, took on more work than I, than I could have or should have taken on. Summer: And, um, it just turned into a serious issue. And, uh, Each night that I would lay awake, I would think I, I’m not going to be able to function tomorrow. And what’s going to happen? Am I, you know, what’s going to happen to my job? How are my students going to react? How will my, my supervisors react? What if I get into an accident on the way to or from work? Summer: It just, it was this This onslaught of negative what if, what if, what if, what if, and this just continued, and continued, and continued, and it was just one night after another, and I don’t really see that as being so extreme. Having a long workday where you have few breaks, lots of people. work like that. Summer: I’m sure I’ve worked like that in the past. Um, but I want to say it was the second night. So I went through the first night of no sleep and I remember waking up and thinking, well, this isn’t good. Um, but I’ll be so tired. I’ll fall asleep tonight. Well, the next night. I didn’t. And it was that morning when I tried to stand up and realize that I had lost, kind of lost control of my equilibrium, that I couldn’t get behind the wheel and drive. Summer: And that was the first time that I felt like the lack of sleep, and it had been at that point two consecutive nights with nothing, just lying there thinking, why is this happening? Um, and I took some over the counter. pills. I think I took some different hydramine, which is the ingredient in Benadryl. I just tried, didn’t work at all. Summer: And I think that was it. It was, it was the second morning after having no sleep. So, um, and realizing that I had to drive and I had to go and work and that I still had, you know, three more days of the week to get through and then after that another two weeks to work this type of schedule. Um, and for me, it’s, I think, really comes down to control. Summer: I had lost the ability to control anything. Um, and I felt like this, this sleep issue had just taken complete control of me, and the more I thought about it and fed those, those fears, the worse it got, um, and it just, that’s what it turned into, um. It, it was, it was just my, my inability to control what was going on, and I’m not sure if I’ve ever felt that out of control. Summer: I felt somehow responsible for what was going on and it was my fault that it happened and it was my responsibility to fix it. And the more I tried to fix it, the more it would not be fixed. Uh, it just, it was, I mean, I don’t want to over exaggerate this. I, this happens to people everywhere in, in so many different types of circumstances, I wasn’t in a traumatic situation, nothing had had occurred. Summer: Um, that would really. Well, it’s not right to say that, that nothing happened that justified me having this, this fear, anxiety and fear and stress and frustration is always valid when, when it comes, regardless of what’s triggered it. But there was nothing going on at the time in my mind that justified this other than feeling like I just was working. Summer: Too much and not in the day. I literally just did not have time to get a drink of water. Go to the bathroom. There was just there wasn’t time. And, um, I was, I was hungry, you know, there was no time to eat if I couldn’t go to the bathroom, of course, there was no time for me to eat. It was, it was bad and it was, it was my own fault. Summer: No one was forcing me to work like this. I had had taken on extra classes because I wanted extra income at that time. Love the job. But I, I just, I felt as though I’d put myself in that situation. And then I thought, this is my fault. I’ve got to fix it. Oh my goodness, I can’t. Now what? And that, I think, really is what started it. Martin: And I think that’s why it’s so easy to get stuck, right, when these issues turn up. Um, because, like you described, we can be really hard on ourselves, which rarely makes things easier. Um, and we can then start engaging in, you know, actions that involve, with the intent of trying to control sleep. Martin: And sleep, I think everyone listening to this, if we’re being honest with ourselves and reflecting on our own experience, we can probably tell that the more we try to control sleep, the more difficult it often becomes. And similarly, the more we try to control our thoughts and our feelings, the more we try and get rid of anxiety or worry, for example, the more they kind of push back and the more power and influence they get and So, all of these are natural responses, and I think that’s why it’s so easy to get stuck, um, and to then feel really confused and feel really concerned or worried that something uniquely wrong is, there’s something uniquely wrong with us, that maybe we’re broken, there’s some, some biological problem, but so often it is down to that change in approach, the change in the way we approach sleep, or the change in our relationship with sleep, um, that gets us tangled up in this struggle. And that’s what it sounds like you’re describing, just hearing you describe your own experience. Summer: I never imagined that what was happening would turn into a five year battle with insomnia that would span two continents at the time I was living in the United States. Um, I brought this with me here to Europe and suffered, um, probably suffered more here than I did even back in the U. S. So it, uh, you know, even in my, my worst thoughts back when this happened. Summer: First started, it, it was never, it just did not cross my mind that I was going to struggle with it for five years. Um, and, and just continue to have this horribly unhealthy. relationship with sleep, but I did. Martin: What, what happened next? Like how did, how did things continue from that point onwards? Summer: I, um, again, I had, I loved my job. Summer: I had a great job and, and my colleagues and supervisor were very understanding and supportive. Um, I was extremely proud. When I was able to discard the Valium, I’m not a medicine person at all. Taking over the counter pills was, was something I didn’t want to do, but I’d been doing it. But when I got a prescription, I researched side effects and I just, I don’t, I thought I don’t want anything to do with this. Summer: So I was very, very happy to, I think, take only three of those and then just, Get rid of the rest of them. Um, and I, I was sleeping on and off, but I was, I was having a hard time because there were other nights where I would lay awake. I never really had a problem again where I went day after day after day or night after night after night with zero sleep. Summer: But because that had happened, every night that I struggled became a potential disaster to me. And like I’ve heard so many of your guests say, and so many participants on the forum have written about this, lying awake thinking every possible bad thing that can happen to me tomorrow will now happen because I’m not sleeping tonight. Summer: Um, it’s such a, it’s such a typical story, but, but like you just said, back then when I was kind of new to this, this experience, I thought it was just me. I thought this is, you know, the, and, and my way of trying to deal with it was to look up, um, information on the internet about what was going to happen to me if I didn’t get there. Summer: Control of the sleep problem. So I was changing my diet. I was trying to figure out I at the time I used to swim pretty consistently. Um, and I was trying to figure out if there was a certain time of the day, maybe relating to atmosphere. It was just ridiculous, the things that went through my head. Was there a better time that I should be swimming? Summer: Um, I remember talking to a student, um, of mine. He was a, he was an associate professor that had come to our, our program. program to do some kind of research or something and I was, was working with him in, um, presentation skills in the English language and he specialized in Alzheimer’s and I remember him mentioning that if you exercise at night, the oxygen is less. Summer: So you’re, you’re doing damage to yourself if you go out jogging at night or have, you know, brisk walking in the evenings. It’s better to do it in the morning when the quality of the air is better. So I would internalize all of these things and think I’m causing myself to, um, you know, be more at risk for all of these, these conditions and these disorders. Summer: And if I don’t get control of them, And I don’t get control of the sleep problem. I’m going to end up, you know, having Alzheimer’s disease or having some other kind of, as if I have any control at all over that. And it, it really just. It turned into this, this obsession and the need to consume as much information as possible. Summer: I would read studies that I didn’t understand at all. Things that, that I don’t have the, the depth of knowledge or understanding in. This isn’t my background, but I would read them as if I could understand. And then try to diagnose myself and figure out a treatment plan. It was just ludicrous. And this just went on and on. Summer: Um, I changed my diet. I did all these funny things with light in my, my space. Um, I tried to get rid of all blue light after 6 p. m. Um, it just, I played around with the temperature. I did everything I could think of. Anything that I would find online that someone was suggesting might work. I would try it short of buying magic pajamas and wearing those, everything else I did and it didn’t work. Summer: Um, there was a bit of a breakthrough, uh, in the summer of 2018. So this started in February of 2017 and then in 2018 I switched my diet pretty drastically to a plant based diet, whole food plant based diet, thinking I have nothing left to lose. I’ll just give up meats and dairy and all animal products and all preservatives and all of these things and I’ll just really try to go pure clean eating and within just a matter of days I noticed a drastic improvement in my sleep. Summer: And I attributed that to the diet, and the improvement continued through, I’d say about six to eight months, where I felt like I had gotten the control back, and I was thrilled. And then I lost it. So, it just, you know, I had this period where I thought I was victorious and I had somehow managed to conquer this thing and all my work and research and my trying different things had finally paid off and I’d figured out what to do and then I became very, um, sort of zealous about plant based eating and trying to tell people to stop eating meat unless they wanted to have bad sleep, just ridiculous things, and it was working for me until it wasn’t. Summer: So It just, it turned into the most unhealthy obsession that impacted every area of my life. Not just sleep, eating, relationships, exercise, um, where to sit in the house, what kind of music to play at what time of the day, um, you know, what kind of, of colors to have around me, so many things. And it was a very, very unhealthy obsession that I developed. Martin: Just hearing you talk, we can see how easy this can consume our lives really because we engage in all these experiments, implement new rules, um, regulations and restrictions and rituals that then become the focus of our life rather than Living our life. Yeah. Martin: And every time we engage in a role or a ritual or an experiment and it doesn’t seem to work, then we can put more pressure on ourselves. We spend more time trying to figure out the next thing to try. Um, and it just becomes. We just get pulled away from the life we want to live and we put more pressure on ourselves to sleep, all completely understandable. Martin: I remember you posted in the Insomnia Coach forum and you shared that, reading forum posts from other people, um, and listening to other podcast episodes started to change your perspective. And that change in perspective was something that proved to be helpful for you. Summer: Yes. Martin: Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Summer: It was like a switch flipped. It was this thing that the switch had been stuck for years. I was convinced that, um, this is really silly, but I, I believed, I convinced myself that if I Left the USA at the time. This is I don’t want to go too far off on a tangent with this, but I wanted to leave. Um, I wanted to I’ve lived overseas most of my adult life, and I’ve really been happiest when I’m from the U. S. But I’ve been happiest and most at peace when I’ve been outside the U. S. For various reasons that I won’t go into. Um, and. I wanted out and, uh, I had planned on leaving. Um, I was in a graduate program, um, which I started after I’d had that horrible traumatizing incident with the sleep and whatever, and I was still kind of up and down and I think it’s important to, to point out that when I changed my diet, um, that coincided with the start of this new academic program I’d gotten involved in that was going to be demanding more of my time and giving me less. Summer: Free time in the day and whatnot and forcing me to do more work and be on my laptop more and all of these things and I Decided to change the diet and lifestyle at the same time that I started that program and for the first six to seven months I was doing so well, and I really did congratulate myself, and I said, that was it. Summer: That was the trick. But you said something just now. That made me realize that the trap with this is in the trying, and I think I was sleeping well during that six to seven month period because I stopped trying. I didn’t have to anymore. It was just happening the way it was supposed to. And, um, then I got back into this, this situation where I wasn’t sleeping as well, and when the pandemic came and I felt as if I were stuck and wasn’t going to be able to move out of the country, like I had been planning, um, That’s when it hit me again really hard. Summer: And I started having trouble sleeping. It’s just it’s it’s control. So fast forward from 2020 to when I started to really understand that this was not something I had any control over. I moved to Germany to start a PhD. Very fortunate to be able to do that while The pandemic was happening. I think it was the first way. Summer: This might have been the second. I don’t even remember now, but I got here and within something like four to six weeks, the country Germany went on lockdown. It was supposed to be two weeks, and it turned into six months. This is the second lockdown. And here I was in a foreign country, um, with no community, no Um, really no language skills at that time, um, supposed to be doing this research project and I didn’t have colleagues, I didn’t have really anyone to talk to, um, and I was sitting in an apartment day after day in lockdown. Summer: So there’s plenty of time to sleep, but I wasn’t sleeping. And it’s important, uh, I think to, to mention that when I started reading the forum, the insomnia coach forum, I found it by happenstance. I think it was around the spring of 2022, and I’ve been suffering since I got to Germany. I did go through spurts where I had maybe four or five weeks of okay sleep, and I thought, Oh, good. Summer: Okay. But I, I would be scared to celebrate it too much because always when I had done well in the past, I would regress. Um, I was so upset because I really thought that the solution to my problem was going to be moving here. Um, I had, I blamed my sleep issues on the country and the situation that I was in because I had never had insomnia in any of, I would say I’ve now lived in six countries, Germany is the sixth and I had never had insomnia issues or at least I’d never had this extreme obsession or focus on sleep anywhere else. Summer: So I just thought this is because of where I am when I get out of this. I’ll be fine. And that didn’t happen, which upset me because that was my last effort to try and control, you know, what was going on. And in 2022, um, around March or April, I want to say, I just remember it was spring because we don’t get a lot of sun here in Germany and, and the sun had started coming out. Summer: More days were getting a little bit longer and that helped. Um, restrictions had lifted, completely lifted in this country, and people were out and about. There were no mandates to show vaccine certificates. It just felt freer. And I started socializing because there wasn’t this fear of, you know, getting kicked out of some place because I didn’t have a booster vaccine or all these different things. Summer: And, um, I started practicing my German. I’d been studying German, um, remotely through an online program and I started practicing speaking and just being out and about. And I’d been getting therapy. I started seeing a psychologist, I think in February or maybe early March of 2022. Um, and then within just a couple of weeks of seeing her, I found you, I found your, your, um, your podcast. Summer: And I think you had a two week email. Um, I don’t remember what this was. You could sign up for a two week. Uh, email something or other where every morning you would get these emails with provoking questions and a little video or something like that. I started reading those and really just engaging with other people, um, who were going through this or had gone through it. Summer: And realizing that there was nothing at all special or unique about me or my situation at all. Um, which was really comforting, learning that I wasn’t special in this way. Um, and those, those things kind of just came together and helped that, that switch release. It literally was like a light switch had been stuck down and could not be moved. Summer: Um, I don’t need to worry about this. This is really, this is, this is crazy that I’m trying so hard and putting so much in my mental and even physical effort into trying to fix this problem. This was never a problem before when I wasn’t thinking about it. And now I’ve had this problem for more than five years. Summer: And all I do is obsess over how not to have this issue. Um, and now we have freedom, and I’m in this, this country, and meeting these people, and learning a new language, and having this amazing experience. And, I’m missing out. You know, I’ve heard other guests talk about feeling like a spectator in their own life. Summer: And I didn’t want that to happen to me here. Um, it just, it switched when I let go of control. When I just said, this is not, there are things I can control, but this is not one of them. And I’ve just gotta let it go. And I, I mean, I did have a, a psychiatrist, a psychologist, um, meeting with me. And, and she’s a, a cognitive behavioral therapist. Summer: talking me through some of these things and As I think back on our first session, or maybe it was our second session, I remember her just saying to me, Summer what do you want? What what is it that you want out of these sessions, and I had this whole list of things But at the top of my list was like I want seven hours of the week Sleep. Summer: And I don’t want to be awake more than 30 minutes at a time. I just, everything was just very itemized. And I remember watching her through the, we were doing remote sessions at the time. And I remember watching her through the camera. And if I go back now and think, I wonder what was going through her mind. Summer: I’m pretty sure she was just thinking, right, that’s exactly how this works sarcastically. And she was very patient about it. Um, but After a couple of sessions with her and recognizing that she wasn’t actually going to follow up and ask me if I was getting seven hours or if I was, you know, falling back to sleep after 30 minutes, she didn’t validate any of that. Summer: She said, Okay, I understand this is what you want. Let’s talk about how you feel when you don’t get these things that you think you have to have. Let’s talk about how you react to not getting them. And then what does that reaction then do to you? And yeah, she, she did a great job. But it helped so much to hear these stories. Summer: Um, just individuals from all over the world who some of them maybe hadn’t had as, as frightening a circumstance as I had, but a lot of them, I, I remember one lady, I can’t remember where she was from. It was shortly after I first started listening to insomnia coach. Um, I think she said she’d been dealing with it for over 20 years. Summer: Um, I’ve also heard other guests say that they’ve had it their whole life, which to me indicates that they’re aware that there was some kind of extreme disordered sleep for as long as they could remember. And I thought, my goodness, you know, to, to have that history, that must be excruciating. Um, it was just really good for me to hear these stories. Summer: and recognize that none of us have control, none of us at all. There was something that you said, and I think you repeat this, I like this, this phrase about, um, giving attention and then taking away the attention. I’m pretty sure it was you. You say we, we starve it of the oxygen it needs when we just let go. Summer: Um, sleep is going to happen when it’s going to happen, whether you want it to or not, whether you. try to make it happen or not, it’s going to happen when it, when it’s going to. And I heard it, and I heard it, and I heard it, and it finally sunk in. Um, and it just, I think there were a lot of factors that kind of came together at that time last year. Summer: Um, I also am, I mentioned, I think, um, in our correspondence, I’m not a religious person. I grew up religious, but I’m, I’m not religious now, but I am a person of faith and I prayed and I, you know, I never lost that faith and I believe that that played a role as well. Um, feeling like there is someone much bigger who’s in control of this, who cares. Summer: And, um, you just have to, to let that go. The end. You know, I went through that very scary experience of not having sleep for four to five nights in a row, and I, I didn’t get into a car accident. I didn’t get hurt or injured at all. I didn’t get extremely sick. I was scared and upset, but nothing terrible happened to me even after going through such a long stretch of, of zero sleep. Summer: And I learned that the human body is actually capable of doing some pretty incredible things in extraordinary circumstances. But that wasn’t my focus back then. I wasn’t able to think about it in, in that way when it was happening or even after. So yeah, it was, um, it was a very freeing thing to just finally be able to say, you know what, if this isn’t my fault, it’s not my problem. Summer: I don’t have control over it. Um, these bad nights are going to come and trying to stop them is, is really not a good use of my time and energy. Um, when they come, they’re going to come and I have to deal with them as they come. Um, and then just learning strategies for how to engage with those negative thoughts. Martin: So just to summarize what I took from your description there, um, sounds like some things that you found useful, um, or that helped change your perspective was realizing that you weren’t alone. There were lots of other people going through a similar situation, like, you know, that struggle, but some details can be a little bit different. Martin: Um, but the struggle is generally quite similar from person to person. Um, and, uh, you found it helpful to start to, Move away from that kind of control agenda. A little bit less trying. And as you did that, maybe you also freed up some time, some energy and attention to reengage in life in things that were important to you. Martin: Yeah. Um, and so there may have still been difficult nights and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it. But even in their presence, you were still doing some things that mattered to you. Um, things that were important, things that you enjoyed, rather than 100 percent of your actions were focused on trying to fix, fix the problem. Martin: And then you touched upon, how helpful it can be to drop the control agenda. Um, but as no doubt you’ve experienced, it’s very hard to do that, right? Because, um, we want to fix this problem and often this idea of not trying to control it anymore is kind of scary in itself because then we’re, we might be being hard on ourselves and we might suspect, well, this sounds a little bit like giving up. Um, I’m not going to try anymore. What does, well, I can’t, I can’t just give up. This is, this can’t be my life forever. Um, but you know, moving away from trying to control what our own experience tells us can’t be controlled can be really helpful. Martin: But it’s one of those things that can be so much easier said than done. Then done. So I’m curious to hear, you know, how you approach that you were obviously reading, you’re working with a therapist, you’re also reading forum posts, listening to the podcast, and it sounds like you identified this common theme about moving away from trying moving away from trying to control sleep and what’s going on inside you. Martin: But how did you how does that translate to action? Like, how did you actually go about doing that? Summer: I had to let go of the guilty thought. Um, that I was having for not being able to fix myself. Um, I had to stop, uh, sort of excoriating myself for eating sugar at a certain time of the day. Um, or watching a movie until a certain hour and thus, you know, exposing myself to screens. Summer: I just, I had to, I had to, um, forgive myself for breaking the rules. Before I could let go of the rules altogether and recognize I didn’t need those rules at all. I recognized that, okay, I am someone that needs to control. So let’s just redirect that control to something different. Channel it into something else and stop trying to control the sleep. Summer: And in letting go, I started sleeping and I remember sending messages to some of my friends who’d kind of been praying for me over the course of several years, including my, my family back in the States as well. And it was, I think sometime in April, the month of April, 2022, I said, it’s gone. The insomnia is gone. Summer: Um, I may still have some rough nights, but, but I’m not in, I’m not suffering from insomnia. And, um, some people kind of questioned it. Well, how can you just know? How can you know that it’s gone when you’ve had good, you know, good spurts or good periods of time before? How do you know? And I said, I just, I know because I’m not even going to attempt to control. Summer: I’m not going to engage with these thoughts anymore. Martin: One of the things that really stood out for me is your emphasis that there’s that desire for control. Um, which I think is probably universal. Um, especially when there’s difficult stuff present, we want to control it in the sense that we want to get rid of it. Martin: And that’s completely understandable. Um, but what I love is how you kind of redirected that. You know, you reflected, yeah, I’m going to always have this desire for control. I’m going to want to control things. But in that context, you are then kind of brainstorming. Well, what can I control though? From my experience, my experience is suggesting that I can’t control sleep. Martin: So I will satisfy my desire to want to control something. But instead of trying to control sleep, I’ll try and control something else. So for example, I don’t know. I’m just going to throw this one out there. I don’t know if this was relevant to you or not, but I might control my actions by, for example, going out for lunch today instead of trying to control sleep. Martin: I’m going to control an action that might Just kind of push me along the path towards the life I want to live that’s more aligned with the life I want to live even when sleep might still be being difficult. And it sounds as though you also found it helpful to be kinder to yourself when things were difficult rather than being harder on yourself, putting more pressure on yourself to fix or control what your own experience was telling you can’t be fixed or controlled through effort. Martin: Um, and I think that’s really important. And you’re kind of refocusing on things that mattered to you. Now, you know, we might be, people might be listening to this and saying, well, sleep matters to me. Well, yeah, absolutely. But you’re probably already focused on that. How about we refocus or expand focus onto other things that matter, um, other than sleep or in addition to sleep. Martin: Um, and you kind of also, you said you identified rules and rituals that you were engaging in. Maybe as part of that control agenda to control sleep, and if they weren’t enjoyable, or you weren’t finding them useful, you started to kind of untangle yourself from them and allow yourself to be a little bit more flexible in the way you approached sleep, or the way you responded to difficult nights, and probably the big one is letting go of the difficult thoughts, the difficult feelings, um, not engaging with all those thoughts quite so much. I’m curious to know if you’re able to expand on that a little bit. If someone is listening to this and thinks, that sounds great. I would love to be able to let go of all these difficult thoughts, the feelings, the stories that my mind is coming up with. I would love to be able to not engage with them. Martin: Um, how can we do that on a practical level? How can we practice that approach? Summer: I made a decision that I was going to spend every single day thinking about the things that I was grateful for that I took for granted all the time. I focused on relationships because in that, um, I was able to listen to others and really absorb what was going on in their life. Summer: And think about someone besides myself. And that self became less important. Finding this Insomnia Coach Podcast and really just taking the time to listen to these people. It’s the stories that you would feature on the podcast. And you’re right when you say basically it’s the same struggle, different things that precipitate this, but it’s the same struggle. Summer: And um, it helped so much to, to hear that. I think his name was Eric. He said something that I really resonated with and that was that he would look at the bed and hate it and just not even want to see it. I went through that for years. I hated beds. Whether it was in my apartment, in a hotel, at a friend’s place, the sight of a bed was awful. Summer: And I would look at it just with scorn and total contempt and think, You are the reason that I’m suffering, that I don’t feel well. And now, you know, I can’t wait to go to bed. I used to fear it. And now I just, you know, so I made a decision to just practice, um, gratitude. Um, and one of the, and it’s hard to do that when you’re hurting, when you feel dizzy or you feel nauseous, or you’ve got all this work to do, and you’ve got that sort of pressure in your head from not having slept. Summer: And I, I know, um, It’s, it’s very difficult to be grateful for anything when you feel that way, so the only thing that really helped me was to just prioritize relationships and, and think about other people and try and take the focus off myself and put it on, on others. And that made a difference. Yeah. Martin: That process of letting go of the difficult thoughts, of maybe engaging in them with them a little bit less, struggling with them a little bit less, was about maybe just diluting them. Um, not diluting them in terms of, I’m going to try and delete certain thoughts and feelings from my mind, but adding more stuff to them. Martin: So if we imagine your life is a circle, and inside that circle you’ve got the insomnia. You’ve got the fear of the bed, you’ve got the anxiety, maybe the depression, um, the stress, the worry, all the difficult stuff. Um, and that can easily become our focus and that’s all we see inside that circle, right? Martin: It’s all that difficult stuff. So naturally, we’re going to want to try and push it all out of that circle, get rid of it. Um, but what if we take a different approach where we just add some more stuff to that circle that’s a little bit more pleasant, or a little bit more enriching, or a little bit more rewarding. Martin: And it sounds like you did things like gratitude practice as a way of identifying stuff that you might otherwise have missed. So you’re making a conscious effort now to actually look for some good stuff, which can be really hard to do when we’re really struggling, right? But if we look, we tend to find, even if it’s just one thing, there’s We tend to find something. Martin: Maybe we heard the birds chirping. Something, it could be something small like that. You know, maybe we saw a leaf fall down in a really cool spiral pattern. Just something like that. You know, just something good that we can then put in that circle. And you said you focus more on relationships. What are other people going through? Martin: How can I be there for them? You know, um, Especially if that’s something that’s aligned with your values, you know, being, being someone that can be there for someone else. That’s some more stuff that you’re adding to that circle, you know. So the difficult stuff might still be there, but now it’s not all that’s there. Martin: You’re adding on all of this other stuff and kind of diluting it down a little bit. So maybe then Let me know if this was your experience. Maybe then you’re less inclined, perhaps, to focus quite so much on all that difficult stuff and really get tangled up in a struggle with it, because now your focus is kind of adding more of the good stuff and noticing more of the good stuff. Summer: Yeah, when I started openly talking about it as well, um, not just posting on the, on the forum and listening to podcasts and talking to a, I mean, talking to a psychologist isn’t the same as talking to friends. When I started talking to people, in person. That was another thing. Instead of talking on the phone or, or, you know, sending messages and what’s up, but actually going to a coffee shop or going for a walk somewhere and, and talking with new friends that I was making here in Germany and saying, I’ve been struggling with this. Summer: And, um, one, one couple that I met, one young couple that lived in my building, um, uh, the husband recalled a story of having some pretty serious sleep issues when he’d been on some sort of a work trip to Japan. And I remember just thinking as I was listening to him. Rehash the story and how it had concerned him, but he didn’t end up developing this obsession with sleep He just remembers that he had a hard time for a while. Summer: He couldn’t sleep when he was there He had a hard time sleeping when he got back to Germany and I thought you know, this just this happens to everybody this happens all the time and It’s good people get scared people get upset. They might get sick but You know, they maybe they don’t need to spend five years fighting this and trying to to control it the way that I have and just having these these open conversations about it also made a difference, but definitely getting that focus less on on or if I’m going to think about myself, I wanted to think about the things that I was fortunate or blessed to have rather than how much I was suffering. Summer: And I went from being resentful towards the people around me who I knew and didn’t know to being grateful for these people. I remember I would walk through my apartment and get very annoyed if, if a car drove by because the lights would shine through the little opening. Um, between the blinds where the blinds met the window and I would think because it’s after a certain time and I’ve got lights shining into my apartment, now I’m done. Summer: I won’t sleep. And I was so mad at whoever was driving that car and I would go from that type of ridiculous, just completely illogical thought to I’m so glad that I’m not out there driving. I’m so glad that I live in a country that I don’t need to have a car anymore, so I don’t have to drive. Driving used to cause me a lot of stress as well when I was living in the U. S. because I was just always sitting in traffic. I don’t have to do that here, and so I literally just flipped. Everything changed. The resentment, the frustration, all of these things were replaced by gratitude, and I would just look for things, any small thing to be thankful for, and then. Like you mentioned, just try and find out what’s happening in other people’s lives, um, and think about that, and how can I, and even in some small measurement, how can I help if, if there’s a need for help? Summer: And eventually, my issues just became less important, and eventually the sleep just came. Martin: Did your approach in the evenings change at all? You touched upon, you started off having all these different rules and rituals. It sounds like you started to dismantle them. How did you start to respond to being awake at night in a different way that you found helpful? Summer: That’s a really good question that I think about a lot. Um, I do have one rule that I should It’s not a rule per se, it’s a strong word. It’s something that I am, for the most part, pretty consistent in and disciplined in. And that is no clocks. Um, I stop watching the clock. And I don’t count sleep. Other things that, that changed I used to be really fussy about food. Summer: And I would, I would have certain things that I would eat between 8 o’clock and 8. 30. Okay. I just stopped that. When you get up for some reason, hunger, going to the bathroom, whatever, a noise wakes you up, and then you can’t fall back to sleep, that is stressful. It’s frustrating. It’s infuriating. I sometimes feel resentful toward whatever it is that woke me up. Summer: Um, I think the difference now is, is that I don’t get too upset about having those thoughts. I don’t punish myself. For having the thoughts, I just decide if I’m not going to sleep because I’ve been woken up or something, um, I might not have a very pleasant morning or day. but the day will go on and it will pass. Summer: Um, and I’ve been through this before, just like so many other people have. And I’ll just get through it. Even if I have to get through it one hour at a time. And I don’t go through these motions anymore of, okay, I’ll do this. If this, and in case of this, I’ll do this. And I used to have plan B, C, D, X, Y, Z. Summer: And I don’t do that anymore, but I do, I do lay awake sometimes irritated. That I’m not asleep. And it’s usually on the nights when I don’t have a lot of time, or I feel like I don’t have a lot of time. And I’m not looking at the clock, so I don’t know what time it is. But I know that I have to be up for something important the next day. Summer: And I’m not happy about the situation, so I let myself be angry, and I’m okay with it. I didn’t ask to feel that way, um, so anyone who is waking up in the middle of the night and being frustrated that they are not able to fall back to sleep. has the right to feel frustrated and doesn’t need to feel like they somehow have to dismiss that thought quickly, right? Summer: It’s, there’s nothing wrong with feeling what we feel over the these types of issues. But I think recognizing that’s what it is. It’s a feeling. It doesn’t mean that the day is going to be horrible. It probably is an indication if the sleep never does come or if it’s really poor sleep, the next day may not be great. Summer: But that also doesn’t mean that everything is just going to fall apart. Um, it’s, it’s really helpful to just. deal with these thoughts when they come by saying, okay, I’m, I’m really, really angry right now. I’m really annoyed. I’m really frustrated with this person across the street who can’t keep their dog quiet, which I love dogs. Summer: I have no problem with them barking all night, but I can see how that would bother some people, whatever it is, that’s causing that negative feeling. Uh, just feel it. It’s, it’s fine to have those, those, those thoughts and feelings. Um, you can’t. make them go away because you don’t want to have them. And night is a perfect time because we’re just lying there and mind wanders. Summer: And it is, it’s really almost impossible to dismiss those thoughts. So bring it on. Um, but, but when the morning comes and you’ve got to get up, let it go. That’s, that’s all. And yeah, it’s, um, I feel like I’ve gotten control of my life by letting go of control of this. And in that, now I’m, I’m satisfying that need for control. Summer: You know, I don’t let these negative thoughts control me. I don’t get scared of them when they come. I don’t enjoy them. I don’t mean to say that I like it. But I, they come, I deal with them. And, and they come again and again. Um, and I deal with them again and again. But then I, I have to let them go. Because I have things to do. Summer: Like we all do. Martin: I think it’s really important that you mentioned you still experience human thoughts, feelings, and emotions like anger, irritation, anxiety, frustration, because it’s really important. It can be so easy to fall in. It’s another one of these potential traps, right? Well, we might say, well, I’ll know things are better when I don’t, when I’m not anxious anymore, you know? Martin: And I think of them as dead people goals, you know, well, we’re not anxious when we’re dead. Otherwise we’re always going to have anxiety pop up from time to time. Um, And so I love the fact that first, you just mentioned that, yes, I’m, I don’t consider myself an insomniac anymore. I’m not tangled up in that really big struggle, but I still have anxiety from time to time. Martin: I still feel irritated or angry from time to time. But the difference now, and especially when that stuff shows up at night, is you’re acknowledging it now and allowing it to be present rather than putting on the boxing gloves and going unlimited rounds with this invisible opponent, which tends to just make things more difficult. Martin: Now you’re naming it, you’re saying, okay, I’m feeling anxious and you’re just allowing it to be present for as long as it chooses. And then in the morning, your focus is shifting now onto action. Now I’m going to, even though. That anxiety might still be here, just using that as an example. Now I’m going to get out of bed and I’m going to do either what I had planned or do something that matters to me. Martin: Um, so all that stuff starts to lose its power and influence because we’re less engaged with it. We’re like tug of war only works when each side are tugging on that rope, right? Martin: When one person drops the rope, there’s no more tug of war going on. Um, and these thoughts can still be difficult. We’d still probably rather have that magic switch where we could permanently delete them. Martin: But since it doesn’t exist, I think that this is a more workable approach. Summer: Well, it’s the same thing in life, whether it’s sleep related or not. Negative thoughts. Regardless of what triggers them. Whether you’re, you know, in the middle of the night trying to fall asleep and stressed out about something related to work or family or relationship or anything, or it’s the middle of the day and you’re at work and you’re busy and you’re trying to focus on something and get something done, whether you’re tired or not. Summer: And you have these negative thoughts. So I don’t really think there’s anything unique. And maybe I don’t know this would help. It does help me. But recognizing that those negative thoughts I have at night are no different from the negative thoughts I have in the day, when I’m in traffic, not that I’m in traffic anymore, when I’m frustrated, you know, Germany is a difficult country to live in, um, for foreigners. Summer: It’s difficult for Germans, I think, but for foreigners, it can be really tricky. So every day is something it feels like here. And these negative thoughts are just present, ever present all the time. And for me, there’s no real distinction between the thoughts that come at night when I’m laying there, if I’m awake, and the thoughts that I’m having on a train or at work or sitting in my room trying to do something or whatever it is. Summer: Um, they come when they come, they stay and their thoughts and their feelings and that’s what they are. That’s all they are. Um, and they’re always going to come, but, and I’m not going to be, I’ve just not bothered to try and control them. Um, maybe I’ll engage in why am I feeling this way. Let’s, let’s think about this. Summer: Is this a rational? response, but even that sometimes gets a little too much. Just let them come. Martin: I think sometimes there’s important information in these difficult thoughts, right? Sometimes they can be reminders of things that are important to us, things that matter to us. And it’s one of those reasons why I like to just think, I don’t even label thoughts and when I’m working with clients, I’m just, if, well, if we have to label them, how about we just call them natural? Martin: Because they are natural, you know, joy, it feels good. Anxiety tends not to feel good. But they’re natural and normal. human feelings and emotions. Um, sometimes I think just when we put some certain thoughts and feelings in a kind of positive category and some in a negative category, we almost can set ourselves up for struggle because we associate negative as stuff we have to get rid of. Martin: Um, but if we never experienced anxiety or fear, for example, we wouldn’t be alive today, would we? So how negative are they truly? Maybe it’s just the way they make us feel can be negative, right? But they can sometimes. Be really useful and really valuable. Um, and it’s that struggle with them that makes tends to make things difficult In in terms of that struggle like that process of moving away from it. Martin: How long would you say that? Once you had this new perspective and you started to change your approach, how long would you say it took for you to get to the point where it felt that you were no longer entangled up in that constant struggle with sleep, when it felt as though insomnia and all the stuff that comes with it was starting to lose its power and influence over your life? Summer: For me, this is, I think this is not typical, um, from, from what I’ve heard from listening to other guests. But for me, it was fairly instantaneous. Um, and this is where, you know, I’ve not, I’m not right about this, but I would attribute it to prayer. Um, I really do believe that that I believe that I gave away the control to someone who. Summer: really can control it. Someone who cares about me can call, call it whatever you want. I call it God. Others might call it the universe or the cosmos. I’m fine with that. Whatever. I’m fine with it. But something or someone that I consider a benevolent force that actually cares for me and cares for what I’m going through here. Summer: Um, and, um, Once I was willing to say, I give this to you, I’m done, I am finished trying to control this, this sleep, um, issue, take it, it was taken away, and it was instantaneous, and that tends to be very, I wouldn’t, I mean, it’s not magical thinking, I, I can understand how it sounds that way, but I’ve, I’ve heard so many stories of people that have sort of similar experiences where they have that switch flip. Summer: Um, and I, you know, I think an easier way for people who aren’t interested in the spiritual or faith based side of this is just to think about the power of positive thinking. If you want to disassociate it with faith, um, it, it can happen, um, quickly. Um, I’m not going to say, when I say that it was instantaneous again, I’m not saying that I suddenly went from this sick, tired, worn out, stressed person to this happy, joyful person that was swimming every day and having all this fun, um, and I still struggle. Summer: I still have bad days and bad nights, but it was instantaneous. Um, the insomnia was gone when I realized I would, I would say probably within a week or maybe two, um, listening to the podcast, talking to people about it in person, being on that forum, having a therapist who knew what she was doing. I stopped reading, you know, papers on, on all of these different horrible disorders that can come later in life from, from not having enough sleep. Uh, I enjoyed listening to podcasts about sleep prior to overcoming it because I thought like I was feeding myself important information, but I stopped listening to sleep experts other than the insomnia coach, insomnia coach podcast. I did not. Insomnia wasn’t a part of my vocabulary anymore. Um, it was very quick. Summer: It was quick. It was an attitude adjustment. I prayed. I really prayed for that adjustment and I got it. And I’m not, again, trying to say that things are perfect. But I do not suffer from that. I let it go. I gave it away. It’s not something, it’s not something I have to bear anymore. But yes, I recognize I’ll still have tough nights. Summer: I accept that, and that’s fine. Martin: If someone with chronic insomnia is listening, and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, That they’re beyond help, that they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. Martin: What would you say to them? Summer: I think what you said earlier is be kind to yourself. There’s nothing, um, I, I feel like the person that is listening, that is having this, these feelings, I’ve had them, most of us have, that are, that are involved in this, this kind of a discussion, um, you’re doing everything you can do. Summer: Um, so. What more can you do? I mean, I think really just, uh, forgive yourself for having these, these feelings of inadequacy or not being able to control it or not being able to get better. For me, I really believed I was at fault and I held myself responsible for what was happening. I really did. I would, I would sometimes, I would internalize this feeling of responsibility and I might blame someone else like on the outside. Summer: Oh, this happened and this is why, or I, you know, I said earlier, I thought it was the country that I was in and the circumstance I was in. I thought if I left and moved somewhere else. So I was trying to pass blame when I really knew deep down that I was blaming myself. For not being able to figure out a way out of this. Summer: So that’s what I would say to anyone else. Don’t do that. Don’t take it upon yourself to solve the problem. Um, It’s, It doesn’t go away just because we want it to. And we try 5, 000 different things that we might hear on a podcast or read on the internet. Um, so, When, when that hopelessness comes, recognize that it’s still, it’s a feeling, um, the insomnia is there, the sleep issues are there, the bad thoughts are there, but I don’t think that, that we have to be responsible personally for those thoughts and, and it can sometimes be hard to let go of that responsibility too, so. Summer: Yeah, I would also say as much as possible, try and, and focus thoughts on others as much as possible. It is so hard to do, especially when people are talking about their own issues and, and whatnot. It can be very difficult when you’re suffering yourself. Um, but that is something that I think is really important. Summer: We all get very wrapped up in our own head and what’s going on. And it. It makes a huge difference when we can just look outwardly and recognize there are other people out there that we could actually maybe be serving in some way, even if it’s really small. Martin: That’s great. Well, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and sharing your experience. Martin: I just know it’s going to be so helpful for so many people, so I’m very appreciative. Thank you. Summer: Thanks for your time. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. Mentioned in this episode: From the Insomnia Coach Podcast: How Eric got his life back from insomnia by focusing on what he can control (#53) I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page

Nina typically dealt with occasional periods of sleep disruption by taking some form of over-the-counter medication. When she fell pregnant this was no longer an option. Work stress seemed to make sleep more difficult and so Nina stopped taking on work. Her sleep would improve but every time she started working again, she struggled with sleep all over again. At this point, Nina thought her ongoing struggle with sleep might be down to pregnancy hormones and yet, after giving birth, her sleep seemed to get even worse. Nina tried to make sleep happen by consuming alcohol, taking supplements, and meditating. She tried hypnosis. Her doctor prescribed her medication but the side-effects were awful. Nothing worked and Nina felt stuck, she felt scared, and she didn’t know what to do. Then, Nina found the Insomnia Coach podcast. She realized she wasn’t alone. That there was hope. When we started working together, Nina started to make changes. She started to do things that mattered each day, even after difficult nights and even when that felt really difficult. Instead of struggling with being awake during the night, she planned and engaged in activities that would help make being awake feel a bit more productive or a bit more pleasant. Nina gave herself permission to be awake. She was kinder to herself when things felt difficult. She stopped trying to get a certain amount or type of sleep. She focused on actions that would help her get her life back from insomnia rather than continuing to battle with insomnia. Nina’s journey was not easy. There were setbacks. She went back to sleeping pills from time to time. Today, Nina is back at work. She enjoys her bed again. She is being the mother she wants to be. She has her life back from insomnia. Click here for a full transcript of this episode. Transcript Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live. Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied. Martin: Okay, Nina, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast. Nina: Thanks for having me. Martin: Can you tell us a little bit more about when your sleep problems first began and what you think might have caused those initial issues with sleep? Nina: Yeah, so for me, it kind of, in a way, it kind of happened slowly. Nina: And, I didn’t really know that I had a sleep problem. It actually came on me initially when I was pregnant. and it was just, I think as the pandemic was happening, and I was trying to go back to work and like I work in the film industry, so it’s not really something that’s constant. so it would be quite normal to actually not sleep very well before a job because you’re on off with work and you’ve really early starts and all that kind of thing. Nina: So I was trying to go back to work. Kind of just when things were opening up again, and I was quite stressed I’d also gone through like a pregnancy loss before that like quite late late term. So I was you know, I think I’d had a lot of kind of stress trauma, whatever blah blah and And then the pandemic on top of it and I was a bit worried about my pregnancy You know, working in film, like, I’m a makeup artist, so I work quite closely with people and that kind of thing. Nina: So I was just even trying to read scripts and things, and I was starting to get quite stressed. And then, when I went to sleep, I couldn’t sleep. And I, I just, it, again, it wouldn’t be unusual for me to not sleep. before work for the first day, but anytime in the past before I had been able to just take something to help me sleep, I’d go to the chemist. Nina: Looking back, I don’t think this is a really good thing to do anyway, but it just shows you what I would have done, what we all kind of did if we, if we didn’t sleep. We’d be living on caffeine tablets during the day and, you know, taking flu tablets at night time to get a few hours to get up again at three in the morning or whatever, you know, crazy stuff. Nina: But when you’re pregnant, uh, you can’t do any of that. So that, I think, made it worse for me knowing that I couldn’t take anything. And I just thought, Oh my God. And then the next day, the same thing happened. I couldn’t sleep. the day after that, I couldn’t sleep. And I thought, what the hell? So I thought, Oh, I’ll go to the chemist. Nina: I’ll, I’ll see, you know, what they’ll tell me that I can, that I can take for sleep. And of course they went in and they said, you can’t take anything. You know, you’re pregnant, blah, blah, blah. And that then made it worse again. And the cycle just kind of continued. And then so. I thought, well, okay, you know, I can’t do this job, I’ll just step back for a bit, try again another time, you know, went back to sleep in absolutely grand, took another job, oh my God, the same things happened, you know, and I thought this is really weird, but I put it down to pregnancy. Nina: I put it down to, oh, it’s because I’m pregnant and I can’t take anything to help me sleep. But then every time I tried to take a job the same thing happened and I just thought okay, well, initially, then I just thought, well, I have to stop working when I’m pregnant like this, you know, I can’t just stay awake all night. Nina: When I have, you know, a baby, when, when I’m looking after a baby, essentially, you know, so, and it was during the pandemic anyway. So I just thought, well, I’ll just, you know, sit this one out. but then after I had the baby and I tried to go back to work again, the same thing happened and I fell into the same cycle with breastfeeding because it was breastfeeding and I couldn’t take anything, blah, blah, blah. Nina: So this whole time, I didn’t really think it was insomnia. I thought it was just related to. Pregnancy, pregnancy hormones, you know, I just, I really didn’t know what was happening. but the same thing happened on and off for ages, and then it just got worse and I went to the doctor because I, every time I tried to go back to work, I would just be awake for the entire night, you know? Nina: and yeah, I went to the doctor and that kind of made it worse again, you know? So, There just sort of seemed like there was no help out there for it, but I didn’t really know what the problem was, you know, so that’s kind of how it started,, Martin: It sounds like once that initial trigger or the circumstances around what you identified as causing these sleep issues wasn’t, around anymore, or wasn’t relevant anymore. Martin: The sleep issues still suck around. And that’s when it can start to feel really mysterious, right? Because we can attribute the cause to all these things, but now all these things aren’t around anymore, and then we can start to worry, well, what’s going on now? Is that the kind of thing that you experienced? Nina: Yeah, exactly, because In the beginning, it was me trying to get back to work. And every time I would take on a job, I’d say, Oh, well, I’m sleeping great now. I’ll take a job. And then of course, I’d take the job and all the fear would come back. I wouldn’t be able to sleep, blah, blah, blah. But then it got so bad that it just bled into my everyday life anyway. Nina: So then it was just every day, regardless of if I was working or not. And that’s when it really, like, you’d say the shit hit the fan, you know, because it was just like, I was just like tortured every day, you know, I just, and I couldn’t see a way out of it. And then it was only then that I thought, Oh, this is like probably insomnia. Nina: You know, this is a real problem. and it’s actually taking over my life because I still had a young baby, like, and he was a really bad sleeper. So, you know, I think like. maybe that was part of the problem as well. Well, even though it started when I was pregnant, but then after he was born, like I had a very long, even labor, labor with him. Nina: And then after that, he never slept, you know? So my sleep kind of was just, completely thrown off. And he was still quite young. I think he was probably only 10 months or nine, 10 months when my insomnia just became like a full time thing, you know. and he, you know, he would have been awake all night. If anything, actually the kind of, uh, treatment, like the, when I actually got the insomnia treated, it helped his sleep in a way, because I just could not be there to, you be with him all night, you know, and his sleep got marginally better. Nina: But, but, yeah, like it definitely, that’s, that’s when it got really, really bad. And when it became proper insomnia, I think, or when I registered that that’s what the issue was. Martin: So, Now you’re kind of in in that struggle, you know, you kind of figured out there’s there’s something else going on here It’s not just this temporary issue It seems to be this thing that’s present and I can’t seem to shake it off Like any normal human being you identify that as a problem and you want to try and fix it So I’m curious to hear what kind of things you tried, when you found yourself really struggling. Nina: Yeah, I, I tried everything. I mean, I think when the insomnia kind of got really bad initially, uh, I was so freaked out, you know, at the beginning I started drinking, like probably the first night I tried like wine and stuff because before I had sleep issues, you know, a glass of wine, if I had one glass of wine and didn’t have anything else, it would knock me out. Nina: So I thought, okay, I’m going to try it. I’ll drink. So I got out of bed, had a glass of wine, got back into bed, you know, didn’t fall asleep. The more things fail, the more freaked out you get, and the more freaked out you get, the less likely you’re ever going to sleep, you know. So it’s like the worst vicious cycle. Nina: And you’re like, okay, so I’ll try something else. That doesn’t work. You know, obviously like meditations and all those kind of nice, you know, It’s music, music all through the night. You know, I probably know them all, those 24 hour things on YouTube and stuff, which are lovely. It makes it slightly better, but it doesn’t help you get to sleep when every time you go to sleep, you wake up with your heart racing, which is what would happen me. Nina: yeah. I tried loads of supplements. I went to like Ayurvedic doctors and spent a billion quid on stuff. I tried all the antihistamines. I tried like two or three different types of melatonin. Like, I couldn’t get anything proper because I was breastfeeding. but one of the chemists, you know, was saying that you could take these. Nina: Antihistamines, try them, whatever, at that stage I wasn’t really breastfeeding much anyway. and, yeah, but nothing, nothing worked, you know, so, like, really nothing worked. And then I think it was the day of my birthday. That it was just, it was so bad. And I remember then just going, I just need to go to the doctor and try and, I actually tried hypnosis before that as well. Nina: Cause I’d heard that that had helped somebody and that actually made me worse. Like it, it made me so much worse having to lie in the bed and like concentrate on this thing that’s supposed to, supposed to make me relax into sleeping. But it was just making me pay attention to fact, to the fact that I needed it to sleep. Nina: You know, and then every time this bell would ring at the end and I would just be like, oh my god, it’s the end of it. I’m awake, you know, and it would just make it so much worse. So like after that on my birthday, I went to the doctor and I said, blah, blah, blah, I have this problem. You know, I really need some help with it. Nina: Like I feel like I’m going crazy. I need to sleep. I have a baby, like blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh my god. he was, he, he was actually quite good. He wasn’t my regular doctor because my regular doctor wasn’t there, but he told me CBT would be really good and he gave me the name of a counselor, but he obviously mixed up CBT and CBT-I because CBT was just counseling and, you know, that was great, but it wasn’t going to help my insomnia. Nina: And I did, but I did download CBT-I apps, which kind of gave me a a bit of, you know, an idea of what CBT-I was, but it just wasn’t enough. and then he prescribed me an antidepressant because he said that it might help with my sleep. And I thought, well, I’ve had a really stressful year anyway. So maybe this antidepressant will help me with my sleep. Nina: I took it and then I had like the worst reaction to anything. Like I was, I was out of my head. Like, I literally felt like I was on loads of drugs. I was really horribly anxious. I felt awful. And I was like looking up Things on this and like the antidepressants, I’ve known people who’ve been on it and they’re absolutely grand and it did wonders for them, but I guess I probably wasn’t really depressed. Nina: I was taking it for sleep or maybe it just didn’t work. My physiology, I don’t know, but, it didn’t work. And, you know, I, I thought maybe this is just a side effect of it and it’ll get better. And I tried to stay on it, but I actually couldn’t even function. I felt so awful. It did help me sleep funny enough. Nina: It was the only thing I could do. Was sleep, but I felt so terrified that they had to prescribe the other medication to counteract the anxiety of that until I could get back into the doctor and then I got back and he’s like stay off them. So I did and that was that, but then insomnia was straight back. Nina: So it’s kind of back to square one. I really didn’t know where to turn, honestly, and I was listening to another podcast that was nothing to do with insomnia, but they had suggested finding, like if you have a problem, to find what they call expanders, and it’s people who have been through the same situation as you. Nina: that you can see to believe that something’s possible. So I thought, okay, well, I need to find somebody who’s gotten over insomnia for me to believe that that is possible for me. And I just knew two people, my mom, actually, funny enough, and my stepmom who have sleeping issues, but neither of them had gotten over them. Nina: So I was kind of doing the anti expander by thinking, Oh my God, these people have sleep issues and they just take sleeping tablets and they can’t really do anything because they never sleep. And I, you know, it was doing the opposite for me. It just made me panic way more because I could just see what they were doing and I knew that I didn’t want that, you know, which is making it worse. Nina: So I ended up just, googling, I got over my insomnia or something like that and up came your podcast. and that’s how I, that’s how I found you and your podcast and your YouTube channel and stuff, which gave me everything that I was looking for in, you know, in the Expander podcast. way, but, and that was great. Nina: I really needed that. And I had actually gone to a sleep consultant before I, in Dublin. but yeah, that didn’t really help either. You know, like, I mean, it was, it was the right idea, but it just didn’t, it didn’t work for me either. You know, I just felt like it wasn’t, it was kind of a tick the box thing. Nina: do this, this and this, see you later, you know, and it doesn’t sort of get down to that fear like that, that people with insomnia have, because you’re really just petrified, you know, and like, you need somebody to say, you’re going to be okay. And like, if you say, like, I remember saying to the last lady, like, Oh, you know, I just, how am I going to be okay? Nina: And she’s just kind of like, Oh, you know. Probably. You’re just like, yeah, you know, it’s like they don’t want to tell you you’re definitely going to be okay in case you’re one of those people that’s not going to be okay, but like you will be okay, you know, like, I don’t know. You just, you need your hand held a little bit and you just need to be told. Nina: It’s like, you know, that’s all it is. It’s just, it’s like, it’s an overload of stress and fear and like, you just need to be brought down off that ledge, you know, like you don’t just suddenly stop sleeping for no reason. Like, there’s reasons that you can’t sleep, you know, and you just need to be told, it’s okay, relax, you’ll be fine, do this, you know, and you’ll be able to sleep again, like, you know, it’s like, yeah, I don’t know why it’s made so complicated, you know. Martin: The fear, like, just can be just this huge can of worms, right, because it’s understandable. First of all, I think it’s important to recognize and emphasize that fear is a natural and normal human emotion. You know, nobody goes through life without experiencing fear. Martin: When we do things that are important, we experience fear. Martin: When we do things that matter, we can experience fear. When we do things that aren’t pleasant, we can experience fear. We can experience it for all different reasons. But I think what can happen when we get tangled up in the struggle with insomnia is it’s kind of like this new front that we open up that gets us drawn into more of a struggle. Martin: So we’re kind of struggling with the sleep. Nina: Mm-Hmm. . Martin: And we’re struggling with the fear ’cause we no longer wanna experience the fear because it doesn’t feel good and because we recognize it maybe as a barrier or an obstacle to sleep. And then we start to get anxious about fear turning up and then we can start to get anxiety about anxiety turning up. Martin: Yeah. And it’s just. new front after new front opening up and we’re suddenly going to war with so many different opponents. And before you know it, we just feel stuck, right? We just feel like we’re just getting overwhelmed by all these invisible enemies and that it’s impossible for us to move forward. Nina: Yeah. Takes over your whole life, your whole day. You know, and you get all these new triggers, like all the time, it’s like, Oh, the sun is starting to set. Oh God. You know, I need to start thinking about like all of the things next that are leading up to the event of bed, you know, and it’s like, it just goes on and like, it’s so ridiculous that like your brain can allow that to happen, you know, and that you can do that to yourself. Nina: Day in, day out. Martin: It can feel like the brain gets a bit adversarial, right? It’s like, why are you working against us? but the truth is, you know, the brain, when it’s generating fear or coming up with all these thoughts and stories and time traveling into the future, what might happen, what has happened in the past, really the brain is actually doing its job of looking out for us, right? Martin: It’s just trying to figure out what’s going on, how to fix it, how to protect you, right? Um But because we, going back to what I was saying earlier, because we can see that as an obstacle, as a problem, and because sometimes it doesn’t feel good to experience certain thoughts and feelings and emotions, we can start trying to fight or avoid them. Martin: so then the brain’s got this idea that, hey, I’m looking out for you here, I’ve got some important stuff to say. And we’re kind of, no, I don’t want to hear it. I don’t want to hear it. I’m going to distract myself, or I’m going to avoid the situation that generates that stuff. and that’s when it can kind of grow in power and influence, right? Martin: So all these thoughts and feelings and stories now kind of take on a life of their own. They become so much more powerful because they start to influence our behaviors. and they can start to consume more of our energy and attention as we just trying to push them away or trying to avoid them. and it’s completely understandable why we would do that, but it often just gets us drawn into more of a struggle that makes things so much more difficult. Martin: And it sounds like That was your experience, not to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like that’s what you’re describing. Would you say that that’s accurate? Nina: Yeah, it was definitely accurate. I mean, I kind of had, I guess I had the sleep issue for probably around two years, maybe two years more maybe, but for a year it was really constant. Nina: Like, I mean, I also was on sleeping tablets, so I didn’t mention that before because I was given them, funny enough, by the first Sleep consultant. Uh, I got them from, from where she kind of told me like, Oh, you’re either taking them or you’re not taking them. So I ended up taking them and that obviously made the sleep, my sleep worse, you know, and then I was taking like a full sleeping tablet every day for, you know, I don’t know, five months or something, six months. Nina: I couldn’t get off them then, you know, and they weren’t even really working, but like that made the anxiety worse, you know, and the, the sleep. Yeah. So I was just, it was like, I guess the sleeping tablets probably gave me a little bit of rest for a while, but I was also like, you know. The feeling of knowing that you’re using a tablet for sleep and that that’s not in your control anymore is just weird. Nina: Like you don’t want to give your, their control of sleep over to a tablet. I mean, nobody really wants to know that even psychologically that like, Oh, I can’t go sleep anymore. So you take this tablet, you know, and then, you know, and they, yeah. Yeah, they kind of stopped working or whatever, but like, yeah, that was very much my life on and off and on and off and full time for months, years really, because I couldn’t like, you know, I still couldn’t go back to work or every time I did. Nina: I’d have to take a tablet if I went back to work and sometimes the tablet didn’t work and, you know, and then sometimes I’d maybe one night I’d have a good night and I think I’m okay and then I wouldn’t again and it just, in the back of my mind, it was always like, Oh, I’m not over this thing. Or, you know, I felt still kind of like tied to the past in a way of like, you know, times that were harder or whatever, you know, like, That, that was still like clinging on in a way, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t over it. Nina: I took, yeah, took a long time to get out of the, the horrible fear part, you know. definitely did. Definitely, definitely did. Yeah. Martin: Maybe we could talk a little bit more about If there was a change of approach to that fear, or how you were able to approach that or deal with it in a different way, once we started to work together, because it sounds as though you recognize that the fear, maybe the anxiety around sleep, how it’s influencing your life, was, a major issue related to the insomnia struggle. Martin: So can you tell us, maybe it was more than one thing, but maybe we can just start here. how you first started to approach responding to that fear a little bit differently when we were working together? Nina: Yeah. Well, I think, for me, I started with the, I started with your free course actually, and that really helped. Nina: I think from the moment I signed up with that. I stopped taking the sleeping tablets. So I think I was really mentally ready to just be like, I need this to go away and I’m going to do whatever it takes. Like, I really felt that I was, I had, I was gone down the right track basically, because of all the, the videos of people that I’d listened to on the podcast and everything, the YouTube videos that I’d watched and stuff, I really felt like, you know, if they could do it, I could do it. Nina: So I wasn’t as. Afraid of what was coming. Like I knew what was coming in the sense that I’d done all the sleep restriction before. I actually had been doing all that for months before I worked with you. so I was somewhat sleeping, but I was also still on sleeping tablets. So I hadn’t managed to wean off them properly. Nina: And like, I’d get some, I’d get somewhere with it and then I’d fall right back down again. So I guess, yeah, I was really, really, really ready. And I think what shifted was. I guess being up at night, just not resisting it, you know, and also going about my day and not letting things get in the way of that, that was a really important thing and that was a really, really hard thing to do because it wasn’t always easy, but I think that really helped. Nina: some of the days were so long, even just with like, with a baby who woke up, like he would wake at like four or five in the morning. So my day was long and he would wake during the night and he would only be going to bed at like 8pm or something, you know, but spending the weekends trying to do something memorable, definitely did help. Nina: And I know that was one of the things that you would say, you know, and the more that you would do those things, it would. you know, you would be making those memories and it would make sleep less important. And that is true. Although it was hard to do that, but it did end up making sleep less important because it wasn’t just like, I didn’t sleep. Nina: So I’m just going to sit in today and my whole day’s ruined because I’m tired and I didn’t sleep. Whereas you’re just going to be tired at home doing nothing, you know? And so that helped, but also just. Staying up at night and not just waiting to go back to bed. And that’s such an easy trap to fall into because even like anytime I’d do well with sleep and then I’d have a little bit of a relapse again, I would fall back into those same traps again, you know, of being pissed off that I’m awake and, you know, just waiting to go back to bed and or just sitting pissed off in my bed, waiting to go back to sleep. Nina: like. If you’re not sleeping, like none of that’s helpful, you know, you kind of have to be okay with, with being up. And that’s so much easier said than done at times. But what really did shift, and I did notice it shift was some nights just been like, okay, actually, what am I going to do tonight? You know, and like actually thinking about things that I could do that are enjoyable, because like, I didn’t really have much time to myself anyway, because my baby was awake all the time. Nina: So, you know, The tables did turn a little bit if I was like, you know, I’m surviving on no sleep. I’m probably not going to sleep anyway, but I’m going to enjoy this time. Cause I don’t get much time to myself and I would plan to do something, you know? And then it was that shift that I found actually, like, I’m enjoying myself now. Nina: And funny enough, I’m able to sleep better. You know, it’s like shifting it from just being miserable and having that miserable existence to having nicer experiences. You know, and I guess when you’re having a nicer experience, you’re lowering your stress levels and you actually probably can sleep better because you’re not just stressed out all the time. Nina: So yeah. And I do remember that at one specific moment kind of going, because I had, I had notes up in my kitchen and I used to write things like ideas that I could do at night time when I was awake, I’d write them down. And sometimes it was really just like household tasks because I thought, well, if I’m going to do some cleaning, at least it means I don’t need to do it tomorrow when I’m retired. Nina: You know, and I would take some things off my list, do the dishwasher, clean the cooker, clean the kitchen, you know It’s better than sitting down just you know, like I’d be so alert Anyway, as soon as I’d hit the pillow my, you know, stress levels would go through the roof My heart would beat so fast, you know No amount of sitting down relaxing was gonna chill me out that much So at least if I got some things done, I could feel good about that, you know, and Go and relax and not just be like looking at the clock thinking I need to go back to sleep. Nina: So all of those things kind of did help. And that getting that into my head that that was okay and allowed. And I don’t need to just think about the hours that I need to get. Because you’re either going to get them or you’re not. And I could never tell whether how many I was going to get. So I might as well be doing other things. Nina: And that shift sort of, I think really made a difference. Because at least I was happier, you know? Martin: Yeah, and you’re kind of giving yourself options, right? Because when you got that, the default option, which is maybe like just stay in bed and just try, try, try to make sleep happen. Because maybe your mind is saying, well, if you do something else, whether that’s in bed or out of bed, then sleep’s less likely to happen now. Martin: Because you’re not trying. but maybe then we can acknowledge, thanks brain, okay, I can see you’re trying to look out for me here, but what does my experience tell me? Martin: My experience might be telling me something different. My experience might be telling me, actually, the more I’m just trying to sleep, and that’s my core focus. Martin: The more I tend to struggle, it doesn’t tend to make conditions any better for sleep. So how about I give myself alternative options? so if I do find myself really struggling, it becomes really unpleasant, I’ve got something else to do. whether it’s reading a book, watching TV, getting some stuff done off the to do list, it really doesn’t matter, because at this point, the goal isn’t really to make sleep happen, because that’s something your experience is probably telling you cannot be achieved through effort. Martin: The goal is really to practice experiencing being awake at night with less of a struggle. So we’re just doing something else that kind of, in a way, is training the brain that alright, wakefulness can be unpleasant, I’d much rather be asleep, I’m not trying to trick myself, but at the same time, it’s not a threat, you know, it’s not something you have to be quite so alert to protect you from. Martin: And I’m demonstrating that being awake at night isn’t a threat. by struggling less with it, by doing other things, by not going to war with this invisible enemy of nighttime wakefulness. and that in turn can also just take so much of the pressure we might put on ourselves to sleep, because now we’re not actively trying to sleep. Martin: We’re just making use of that wakefulness, maybe in a more productive or a more constructive way. Nina: Yeah, as well. And on knowing that, you know, you would always say as well that like, Thinking about your day the next day is so much worse than actually doing, living your day the next day. And although sometimes the days are hard, but like the days actually that I was in work exhausted were probably a little bit easier than the days that I was at home exhausted anyway. Nina: You know, like thinking about having to go to work for me, thinking about having to drive was really scary. Like, Oh my God, having to drive to work. And that was part of it as well. If I had to go far, but the days that I was in work weren’t that bad, you know, even days where I didn’t get to sleep at all, worrying about not sleeping was so much worse. Nina: You know, and even the days, the nights where you’re just struggling, lying in bed. I actually used to have a cathedral outside my window and the bell used to go off every single hour on the hour. So it was like, don’t watch the clock, but it was like, ding, Oh my God, it’s 1am. You know, ding, ding. Oh my God, it’s 2am. Nina: And that just happened all night. So it was like pure torture. Those nights were so much worse. And as soon as I was up, you know, if I had the telly on or something, at least I couldn’t hear the bells. I could hide my clock. I could just stretch from the time, you know, and when I was also given, I guess, the allowance to stay up and not worry about the clock as well, like I’m being told to do this. Nina: It was a bit easier as well, cause I wasn’t, at least I knew I was doing it for a reason. You know, this is actually going to help. Don’t worry about it. You know, this is actually the right thing to do. Don’t just lie in bed, torturing yourself. Just do something else. You know, it’ll eventually lead you to the place that you want to be. Nina: You know, you just have to, you might as well be just enjoying it. You know, do something, do something other than just lie in bed, which I did so much of anyway, you know, like my link with that pillow was so strong for staying awake and. not sleeping, you know, it was like as soon as I went into the room, I was like, you know, I’d like look at my bed. Nina: I’d look at the pillow and I would just like, I’d hate it. You know, he’s changed the covers all the time and be like, Oh, I need to get these covers off, you know, and then I’d still hate the bed straight away afterwards. Like Martin: just, just hearing you describe How the worries or the time traveling, the time traveling brain, the thoughts that come with that and how the brain often predicts things kind of worst case scenario, right? Martin: and then when we actually go about our days, they can still definitely be really difficult and really hard, but often they’re not as difficult or as bad as what the brain might suggest, and I think it can be helpful to just recognize that, because the brain is hardwired to think of worst possible scenarios, worst case outcomes, because that’s what keeps us alive, right? Martin: If we see this creature walking down the street that we’ve never seen before, the brain’s like, Don’t touch it. It could, it could be like this alien life form that’s going to destroy you and everyone within a 50 mile radius of you if you touch it. So we don’t touch it. regardless of whether or not that’s true, now we’re safe, right? Martin: Because we haven’t touched the strange creature. Martin: but that can work against us too. If we kind of take it literally, if we take those worst case scenarios that the mind’s coming up with and we just see them as 100 percent facts. because then. We might withdraw from doing things that matter to us, do less of the things that are important. Martin: And then, like you touched upon, maybe then we’re kind of sitting at home, doing nothing. Nina: Mm hmm. No job. Martin: Yeah, exactly. Nina: No money. No friends. Martin: Yeah, and it’s not, then it’s kind of, The question is, is it the insomnia that’s leading to this result, or is it the way I’m responding to the insomnia that’s leading to this result? Martin: and I don’t say it that way to kind of attach blame, but I say it that way because it can, Give us a sense of control, you know, because if it’s down to our response, maybe if we respond differently, if we can keep doing at least some of the things that matter, even if they’re really small, and maybe we start to chip away at the power and influence that insomnia and the thoughts and the feelings that come with it are having over us. Martin: And as we continue to do that. Maybe we can start to emerge from the struggle, you know, pull ourselves out of the quicksand and it’s not a it’s very rarely a quick and easy process often takes ongoing practice, especially when your brain is screaming at you, you know, there’s no way you can do this. Martin: You’ve got to stay home. You’ve got to rest. You’ve got to recover. You’re too tired to do any of this stuff. it can be a real effort because you Those thoughts in themselves are difficult, but the reality is often difficult too, you know, this, we’re not pretending here, the days tend to be really difficult. Martin: we can’t directly control, you know, our fatigue levels, or we can’t permanently, directly, you know, Permanently delete anxiety or fear, but what we can do is change our relationship with those things. maybe acknowledge their presence, be kind to ourselves when things are feeling difficult and continue to do things that matter even when this stuff shows up. Nina: It’s like what you said about the bully and it’s so true because You know, you are letting it take all your power away. You’re letting it take all the things you enjoy away. because you are trying to conserve your energy and stuff, you know, but then you’re just not doing anything. Like one of the things that I did as well, then as I started, I was Just going to the gym, whether or not I slept, you know, and I probably wouldn’t have done that before. Nina: and I was fine in the gym. I was absolutely grand. I was still able to lift whatever weights I wanted to lift and I felt great for it. You know, whereas before I might have thought, you know, probably shouldn’t go because I need my energy. But it’s like, no, I’m, I’m going to do everything. Some of the days I actually had the busiest days. Nina: You know, I did the most amount of things because I was like, I was just booking so many things in because it was, I, I didn’t want to just be sitting at home feeling sorry for myself and wallowing and the fact that I’m not sleeping. And also it was good to just distract my mind, you know, and then little by little, I wasn’t, I didn’t have the time and the energy to think about sleep, you know, and then I started sleeping better. Nina: but yeah, it, it, yeah, it was, it was a process. It definitely didn’t happen overnight, but it definitely did happen. Martin: You touched upon how helpful you found it to continue to do things or to reintroduce things that matter into your life, even when, even while the insomnia was still present, even while the fear was still there, the anxiety, the fatigue, all that difficult stuff was there. Martin: You weren’t kind of, I need this stuff to be gone before I can do these things. You kind of flipped it around. I’m going to do these things even though they’re there and then maybe they might fade into the background or maybe they might lose some of their power and influence and in effect, maybe I’ll start to emerge from the struggle and conditions for sleep will become a bit better because now I’m no longer putting quite so much effort in. Martin: These things aren’t having quite so much power and influence over me. and maybe I think this kind of comes back to what you touched upon earlier when you said. You know, what really helped me was dropping that resistance to insomnia or being awake at night. Martin: And it sounds as though what you’ve also been describing is dropping the resistance to all the difficult stuff that comes with insomnia during the daytime as well. Martin: whether that’s what you’re thinking or what you’re feeling, how you’re feeling, Okay. And I know that people listening to this are going to be like, Yeah, that sounds great. Drop the resistance. Martin: If someone says to you, how do I drop this resistance? So if we start at nighttime, how do I drop that resistance? Because I don’t want insomnia to exist. So I want to resist it. I want to get rid of it. How do I drop that resistance? Nina: Well, I think. Okay, well it’s like you get caught in a loop of not wanting to be tired and feeling scared of being tired all the time. Nina: and I found that that’s for me where you’re just like, I just want my sleep or you might have one night. It’s nearly the nights where you have a good sleep that make it worse. Because you’re like, Oh, I feel really good. And then you’re afraid of losing it. And then you’re tired again. And when you’re tired again, it’s worse because you know what it’s like to have good, to have good sleep. Nina: But I guess then you’re still just micromanaging everything, right? I think if you just give in to being tired, you’re just kind of like, this is it for now. I’m just going to be tired. I’m just going to do these things hard, and I’m just going to do the best that I can tired, you know, it, it doesn’t matter for now, because this is not forever. Nina: This is temporary. This is not forever. And you just kind of have to drill it in that it’s not forever. And you just kind of have to make it the now more manageable. And know that that is going to get better. It’s just going to get better and better and better. It might go up and down, but it will just get better. Nina: And I kind of feel like for me, that was sort of, I just had to give into it and be like, you know what? If you’re going to be tired tomorrow, you’re going to be tired tomorrow. Whatever it is, it’s not going to be as bad as the way you’re imagining it now. Because even, Even how tired you are at the end of the day, like sometimes you feel more tired in the evening before you go to bed. Nina: Even if you’ve been up all night struggling by the time that you’ve in the morning had a shower and had your breakfast, you’re even a little bit more revitalized. You know, it’s not the end of the day, like if you just do something to change the mood or you know, you, you won’t be as bad the next day as you think you’re gonna be. Nina: It’s never as bad and. I think just accepting it for what it is at the time and making the best that you can and just remind yourself that it’s not forever. You know, it is very much temporary and you are doing the right thing. Like I think that’s, that’s probably what helped me. And also just like, I just really had enough of it. Nina: You know, I really had just had enough. I’m like, Oh my God, like I was so bored of my own thoughts, you know? So like sometimes they come in, I’d be like, Oh my God, who cares? Do you know? Who cares? Who cares? Yeah, you’re tired. Great. You know, whatever. Like, this is it now. I’m just gonna be tired. Grand. You know, I’m just gonna do something else. Nina: I’m just gonna clean up. At least I won’t have to do that tomorrow. Or, yeah, just watch a bit of telly. Like, grand. This is not what other people are doing, but I’m gonna do it. You know, and just have a bit of joy in what you’re doing. You know, everybody has different struggles and this is just the struggle that I have right now. Nina: And it’s not forever. I’m gonna make the best of it. Martin: I think it’s natural and normal that we have that resistance, right? Because it’s something we don’t want to experience. but just listening to you talk, what comes across is just the fact that there is an alternative option available if we wish to take it. Martin: So we can continue trying to resist. You know, each individual listening to this are the experts in themselves, and if they feel that’s the right approach for them, then sure, then that’s the option that they can pursue. If someone is listening to this and they feel that that resistance isn’t really getting them where they want to be, then there are alternative options. Martin: And so for you to put that kind of into practice, to physically put that into practice, it sounds as though your alternative options were to do something else physically at night. Alright. Other than resisting insomnia, trying to make sleep happen, and during the day, instead of trying to resist the tiredness, the fear, the anxiety, you kind of acknowledged it, you know, this is true, I’m not trying to trick myself, I am pretty tired, I’m, I’m feeling scared, I’m anxious, my brain is time traveling all over the place, I can’t focus. Martin: Even though all that stuff is present, I’m gonna respond by doing things that are important to me, things that are meaningful. So even though that stuff is there, there’s also some other meaningful or important things as well. and I think that really is how we kind of, that’s how we move away from the resistance, just by giving ourselves alternative options. Martin: If our experience is telling us that resistance isn’t getting us closer to where we want to be. Nina: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I kind of kept myself busy. I think that’s what I did during the days when I felt like, okay, I’m really, I just really, I’m tired of this now and I want my life back. So at least I was giving myself my life back. Nina: I was just doing it tired, you know, but it helped. But also like, you know, lying in bed is fine, but you don’t want to be lying in bed. struggling. So it’s like, you know, if I was really tired, I’d be like, well, maybe lying in bed is okay. I’m like, I’ll lie in bed, you know, but if I was going to struggle, and I know you, you would always say that if you want to go to bed, go to bed, you know, if you’re, if you’re, if you want to lie in bed and be awake, be awake in bed, but don’t struggle. Nina: And I think that’s the thing that like, there’s no point in doing that, in being in bed struggling, you might as well just be up doing something else. You know, and at least I was doing something else that was going to benefit me somewhat and make my life a bit easier. Martin: So when you were practicing this, this new approach, something that a lot of my clients tell me or a concern they share with me is what if, This doesn’t work for me. Martin: You know, what if I’m that kind of outlier? What if all this extra effort I’m exerting into doing things during the day that matter to me or, you know, doing engaging an alternative activity instead of trying to sleep at night? What if this isn’t going to work for me? What if I’m not going to make progress . Did your mind generate any of those stories? And if so, how did you respond to them to kind of keep you on track? Nina: Yeah, I mean, I thought that all the time. Nina: I didn’t think I would be on, on. The podcast or on a podcast or, you know, I mean, if anything, I just had people around me who like suffered from sleep issues and who were just popping pills and that was them, you know, and I was just like, I, Oh my God, that’s all I saw, you know? And thanks to your podcast and thanks to your, YouTube channel, there’s just so many people and then the forum as well, you know, like you could see on your form who’s a client and who’s not a client and, you know, and I think that’s great as well because you’ve got people who are clients helping people who aren’t clients and stuff, but it also, you can see how people are evolving and, you know, how people are struggling and it’s, you know, I just thought there was so much evidence there to suggest that this works. Nina: You know, and that just kept me going. And I thought, you know what, like, I, you know, if you try hard, you have to have some success in it, you know? And it’s like, I guess my, the last sleep coach that I had, she sort of said like people who tend to suffer from insomnia can be people who are like a type A personality who like need to fix things and who have to try really hard and stuff. Nina: and maybe that’s why they don’t sleep. She, she suggested that, you know, and I thought, that’s really interesting. But I guess if you then are a kind of person who wants to try really hard at something, and she was saying, you know, you can’t force sleep, but at least if you’re given a plan that you can try really hard at, that works, then why not do that? Nina: You know, you can’t force sleep, but you can force a plan to work, you know? So I just thought, no, I’m just going to have to. It just made sense to me. It did make sense to me because it’s like, in a way, it’s somewhat like an anxiety issue. Like it doesn’t just appear out of nowhere, you know, like what you’ve said before as well. I just thought that if I went with this plan, it would definitely work for me. Nina: I felt like in a way I didn’t have a choice because I had to, I had to get on with my life regardless, you know, regardless of sleep. And at least that was part of the plan was, well, you have to get on with your, get on with your life, you know? So I was going to have to do that either way. but yeah, the fear was definitely there. Nina: What if this doesn’t? work, you know, but it worked, it worked for so many other people, you know, and it definitely seemed like the best option because there wasn’t really that many more options out there. And I’d actually tried all of them, you know, I had literally tried all of them. but this definitely seemed like something that I, I did think it was going to work. Nina: I did think it was going to work and I was going to stick it out as long as it took as well. You know, I think Watching everyone’s videos, the one thing that really stood out as well was that like everyone was a carbon copy of each other. I mean, even the symptoms that people had, you know, the thoughts that people had, just even knowing that there is so many people out there that were awake at night going through the same, you know, thinking the same crazy thoughts, having their whole life taken over by this thing, you know, like that helped. Nina: And then knowing that so many people had come from that and overcome it. So I did, I did think that I would be able to get over this, but I also, there were often times when I was awake at night that I just wanted it to be over faster, you know, and then you’d think you’d get somewhere and then you kind of have a relapse. Nina: And that was one thing as well, that you covered a lot in your videos and stuff, which I would then watch repeatedly, you know, to try and calm myself down. Yeah, but then it’s just like, like everybody says, I mean, everyone has the same, it’s the same for everyone, you know? And you can even find people in the videos that you relate to so much as well, like, Oh, this girl’s just had a baby and this girl, blah, blah, blah. Nina: And, you know, it’s just, it’s like life events or, you know, seem to just make these things happen. and yeah, I mean, all of that, all of that definitely really helped. And I definitely wasn’t sure, but. You know, I think my sleep is fairly good now, so, yeah, it’s definitely better. Martin: Talking about progress, can you describe the moment, if there was a memorable moment, or maybe it was more gradual, but Was there a moment when you kind of realized that things were changing? Martin: that this whole new approach that you were experimenting with towards sleep and all the thoughts and the feelings that can come with it, that can come with insomnia were actually proving to be helpful, that this approach was, was proving to be useful. Nina: Yeah, I mean, I did the course. I remember kind of getting to the end of that and being a little bit, like, afraid, oh my God, you know, I’m on my own now kind of thing. Nina: Yeah. I remember thinking, okay, like if I struggle again, I’ll just sign up again, because it was, it was so helpful. Like I, I felt like a different person by the time I finished to be honest, but I, I wasn’t sure if I’d be able to kind of go out on my own. Like, and also because I hadn’t really gone back to work. Nina: So for me, it was different and I think it was dragged out so much longer because of the way that I work. I wasn’t taking on any long jobs because I didn’t have child care and all of that. So I was taking sporadic days and then, you know, like it would just bring the sleep thing back up or, you know, and you’d actually said before as well that normal people experience, You know, bad sleep from time to time. Nina: And that was something that I genuinely didn’t really agree with. I was just like, do they know they don’t like I had completely forgotten. Like I had forgotten what my sleep was like. I think I was just totally clouded like to that. And I really didn’t believe it. And now I really, I do, I can see that, you know, and that it is normal. Nina: But at the time I didn’t think that, So yeah, every time I would go back to work or have a day, I would be like, Oh my God, I’m asleep, blah, blah, blah, which I’d say a lot of that was somewhat normal. And then, you know, of course it was going to be heightened for me, not really only because of the insomnia, but because I hadn’t worked really in years, like at that rate, I hadn’t, you know, my skill was, you know, You know, what not really being practiced and I’d had the whole pandemic. Nina: I was now a mom, like there was so much in that. And then I was just like trying to just flex my makeup artist muscle and just go back to work as if like nothing had happened. And I just think that I’m just going to be able to go sleep and have a great night’s sleep. You know, that’s probably not likely going to happen. Nina: So in a way it took me longer and I was a bit more afraid at the end that I you know, might not have great sleep, but I actually got on grand and my sleep, even when I did have to go back to work, yeah, it wasn’t always perfect. Sometimes I did dabble a little bit in a sleeping tablet just so I could get into work and stuff like that. Nina: And, you know, that wasn’t always a great idea. it might’ve gotten me over a hump or two and then blah, blah, blah. My sleep would always go back to normal. But I think having the tools that I had learned. I could always go back to them. my sleep never got bad and also, you know, I just ended up having to go, okay, the sleeping tablets there, you know, not really like, it was kind of awful having them because it was so easy to use them, you know? Nina: And it took me a while to realize that actually, Yeah, I can use them if I want to, but the more that I use them, the more these thoughts can come back, you know, and it’s just taking, it’s, it’s taking more time for me to actually have a good night’s sleep because I started thinking, Oh God, maybe I need this to sleep, blah, blah, blah. Nina: You know, so it was on and off because of the way that I worked. but, but my sleep got so much better. I mean, by the time I’d even finished the eight weeks, I was, I was sleeping well without the tablets. Most nights. You know, and only when I did work was I a little bit like not sleeping as well. But then there were lots of reasons for that too, you know, like, and before I’d started with you, it was every night. Nina: I couldn’t sleep, you know, it was like really bad. so yeah, and I was kind of like, I was using the form and stuff as well, a little bit, and I was still kind of listening to the podcast, you know, and I think one of the, you know, When I really realized that sleep wasn’t controlling my life anymore, it was when I wasn’t listening to the podcast. Nina: And when I wasn’t going on your YouTube channel, like when I go on and I didn’t see your face on my YouTube all the time as like one of the most watched people. I was like, uh, I haven’t been listening to the podcast. Do you know? Interesting. Like, cause it was such a crutch for me. It was such a help, you know? Nina: So that was definitely a sign that my sleep was pretty good. Martin: If we were to attach some kind of timeline, to all of this in terms of moving away from a struggle, like how long would you say that it took for you to get to a point where you felt as though you just weren’t constantly engaged in that struggle with sleep and all the thoughts and feelings that come with it when it felt like it was It was all losing its power and influence over your life. Martin: You know, when you went online and no longer you were kind of going to YouTube looking for my face anymore, it felt like you kind of regained your independence from that struggle. how long would you say roughly, that that process took? Nina: Probably six months, maybe a little longer, you know, like it was very gradual. Nina: Six months, I’d say where I was like, Nina: You know, I mean, after three months, it was a good bit better, but I was definitely, I’d say another, another three months after that. And then it was a year before I was like, okay, this is significantly like, I really feel like I’m over this. but I, I remember as well, you would kind of do check ins and every time you did a check in, I was in a significantly different place, you know, and that was great. Nina: Like, it was like, okay, this is great, you know, and anytime I would have a struggle like the, you know, I would sort of go, okay, you know, this, this is actually going to be grand. Like, it’s like, I, whatever, it’s fine, you know, it wasn’t a big deal. It became less of a big deal really, but yeah, I would, yeah, I would say it’s probably six months, you know, but I mean, by then it was a lot better. Martin: I remember when, when we first started working together I think it was about a year ago, how time flies. Martin: I remember the, your goals, like when I asked you, like, what are your goals here? and you had a few that stood out, And that was returning to work because like you mentioned, you had this concern about, you know, if I returned to work, the insomnia comes back, then what? so you really were keen to return to work. Martin: You really wanted to enjoy your bed again. As you described earlier, you kind of had that really strong association. Bed is a, is a kind of battleground. It creates a lot of fear. Being capable of being a good mom was one of your goals, obviously very important and just putting that struggle behind you so you could kind of move on with your life, you know, live the kind of life you wanted to live. Martin: now you’re able to kind of reflect on your journey. how do you feel you’re doing with those goals? Nina: Yeah, like that makes me really happy because I’ve definitely. Smashed all those goals and I’m, I’m genuinely like, so happy about that. And I think like the taking on that job as well, it was like, that was my last thing. Nina: Cause if I’d only done the days and stuff and the shorter things, I mean, doing a longer project should be absolutely fine. But you always think, what if my insomnia comes back in the middle of it or what, you know, I guess it’s like, it doesn’t. It doesn’t matter, you know, like it, it won’t because you’ll be busy doing other things, you know, living your life. Nina: and yeah, it’s, yeah, I definitely, all of those things, yeah, back to work definitely feel like I can be a good mom, you know, the struggle is gone. And I have my life back, yeah, absolutely, 100 percent all of those things, yeah, thank you. Martin: If someone is listening, someone with chronic insomnia is listening, and they feel as though they’ve just tried everything. Martin: They’re beyond help, you know, maybe they’re a unique case, they’ll never be able to stop struggling with insomnia. What would you say to them? Nina: I would say sign up at Martin, definitely, you know, I would 100 percent I would say like listen to the podcast, go on to the YouTube, you’re definitely not alone. Nina: You know, there’s so many people, everybody seems to have the exact same needs. Everyone has the same thoughts, the same feelings, the same response to everything, you know, definitely start now and just, yeah, start living your life again and you will be completely fine. You know, this 100 percent works, like there is, you know, there is no reason to just struggle any longer, you know, just, yeah. Nina: Yeah, there’s help. There’s definitely help out there and it’s worth doing and you can just get on with your life. Like it’s just no way to, no way to live. I’ve just been terrified of sleep and it’s, it’s pointless, you know, like, and the worry. The worry just takes over just, yeah, you don’t, you don’t need to be worrying like that for no reason. Nina: Yeah. Sign up with Martin. Definitely. That’s what I would say. Martin: All right. Well, I appreciate that Nina. And thanks again so much for taking the time out of your day to come on and share your experience. I know that it’s going to be really helpful for lots and lots of people. So thank you. Nina: Oh, thank you so much. It was great to be here. Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me. Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep. I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com. Share this page