How Neseret ended her dependence on medication and transformed her life through education, committed action, and self-compassion (#62)

Transcript

Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live.

Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

Martin: Okay, Neseret, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast.

Neseret: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Martin: Let’s start right at the beginning. Can you tell us when your sleep problems first began and what do you think caused your initial issues with sleep?

Neseret: The first time that I experienced insomnia was when I was trying to taper off of psychiatric medications.

Neseret: and one of those medications being an antidepressant that actually, is supposed to help with sleep. And initially I was, diagnosed with depression and while I was exhibiting some hypothyroid symptoms, which is a medical condition that mimics a psychiatric, symptoms. And I was also in burnout, from being a psychiatric nurse and working in acute care.

Neseret: And I was placed on a hypothyroid medication and an antidepressant, and I had an adverse reaction to both of them. And within a few weeks, I became manic. and ended up being, diagnosed with antidepressant induced bipolar disorder. So I had sensitivities to medications to begin with, and this, antidepressant I was put on, I was on it for about 13 years, called Mirtazapine, and it’s pretty heavy duty, and I was told that it would help with mood, anxiety, and sleep, and appetite.

Neseret: pretty powerful, and I realized, over time that I was, there was periods I attempted to get off of it because there was quite a bit of side effects, sedation, brain fog, and sleep problems. weight gain, lots of increased sleep. So I would sleep for 12, 13, 14 hours. And, and so I attempted to get off of it several times.

Neseret: And that’s when I discovered I, I went into insomnia and I had never experienced that before. And just to give you a con, timeline. I was 30 when I was diagnosed and placed on the antidepressant for the first time. Prior to that, I never really had any issues with sleep. no insomnia. I, never had insomnia.

Neseret: And so when I attempted to taper off of this medication, was when I experienced like real insomnia. I’m talking about zero sleep, sometimes maybe one to two hours of very light sleep. And it was incredibly, unsettling. And and that was the first time that I realized, oh my goodness, this is what people go through, and this is what insomnia is.

Martin: So how long ago was this?

Martin: You mentioned it was you’re about 30 years old. I don’t want to make any assumptions about how old you are now. So I’m just curious, how long ago this was.

Neseret: It’s okay. I am 44 right now. And, when I first was placed on the antidepressant, I was, it was in 2010. And, And then I was on it for a while because I was struggling with my mood and, I didn’t realize at the time that I was actually having an adverse reaction.

Neseret: and there was several times along the way, along the path that I attempted to get off of, the antidepressant. And, I couldn’t. I kept going back on it. Because my sleep would be the last thing that came and I would just, wouldn’t sleep for days on end and I was just, I couldn’t get off of it. And that was actually, I was on multiple medications it wasn’t just the antidepressant, there was another medications that I was on.

Neseret: And I was able to taper off of that, but I was absolutely terrified to get off of mirtazapine. just because of, yeah, the impact.

Martin: Do you feel it was that, it was specifically that one medication that it was every time you tried to move away from that medication that you had experienced the insomnia?

Neseret: Oh, for sure. Mirtazapine is known for being incredibly sedative. but it also, and yeah, I was, I felt like for those years, I always say, figuratively, I was asleep, not only because I was on a cocktail of medications, but I would come home from, at the time I was working full time, from an eight hour shift, from seven in the morning until three, and by the time I’d get home, I was so exhausted, I would just lay down on the couch and sleep for a few hours, then get up and do some, a little bit of work I have to do, and then I would be in bed probably by eight o’clock.

Neseret: I was exhausted all the time. And if I could, I probably would sleep even longer. So it just felt like I was sleeping my life away, and, I wanted to get off of it. That was just one reason that I wanted to get off of it. There was other reasons, side effects, and this is the case for a lot of psychiatric medications, or even sleep medications, specifically, that are prescribed in psychiatry.

Neseret: there’s many medications that are pretty powerful that are prescribed to help people sleep and have, very serious side effects. a lot of them have, cause metabolic syndrome, which is like weight gain. they do something to your blood sugar. usually people end up being pre diabetes.

Neseret: they interfere with your blood pressure. just really compromised your physical health a lot of the times and mirtazapine did that for me. So the sleep was just one thing, but there was other issues as well.

Martin: Yeah. It sounds like you were really caught in between these two extremes of a whole load of sleep, excessive sleep, or the alternative was what felt like just no sleep at all.

Martin: That felt like they were your two options at the time and you were right in the middle of that.

Neseret: Absolutely. Yeah.

Martin: I’m curious, you, mentioned that nowadays you’re a psychiatric registered nurse, is that correct?

Neseret: I’m a registered nurse in training, but I have practiced psychiatric nursing, so that’s a specialty area for 17 years.

Neseret: And, yeah. I actually decided to end my career not too long ago, and decided to do coaching instead and consulting, and start my own business. And there was, there’s reasons for that, but, one of them being burnout. but yes, that’s what I practiced, for 17 years.

Martin: So were you practicing whilst you were in this really difficult period of wanting to get away from the medication.

Martin: And if so, was there any support you could draw upon, like from your professional background or advice that you could lean on to help you during this struggle?

Neseret: That’s a really good question and very interesting one. as you may already know, there’s a lot of stigma around mental health concerns.

Neseret: And, yes, the 13 years were, at the same time that I was in nursing. So it’s interesting, it’s coincided, I was taking care of, my clients. And I was also experiencing my own, symptoms going through that process. And I, people experience stigma nowadays, just fear that they’ll be judged.

Neseret: And I felt like there was like a double stigma with being a psychiatric nurse. I felt like I should figure this out. I should know how to handle this. And so there was like a shame around that, being a psychiatric nurse and also having mental health symptoms. And the interesting thing is, we are human beings, mental health professionals.

Neseret: And, we have, everybody has their own trauma and their own challenges in life. And, we, there’s such a thing called vicarious trauma, which is basically witnessing other people’s traumas. And so as mental health professionals, people come to us and they share and they unburden and tell us what’s been going on with them.

Neseret: And so I experienced a lot throughout my career, I would say about every few years, burnout. And it was because I was hearing, heartbreaking stories of people, which many of them research shows now that trauma usually precedes mental health and addictions issues. And so we’re just as vulnerable sometimes, I think, even more vulnerable.

Neseret: And I think mental health professionals are one of the most traumatized people. And so I think that I had the usual resources of, workplace therapy and this and that, but I never really felt comfortable to share things with people. I felt that I needed to figure this out and sort it out on my own, which is not the best way to go.

Neseret: but I think that is one thing that people struggle with when they are suffering. I’m sure people, when they arrived, to you, they’ve already suffered for years and years. even if it is when, with insomnia or whatever’s going on with them. So there’s just this sense of not wanting to reach out for help because of fear of judgment and, stigma.

Martin: I appreciate you coming on and sharing this. It sounds like you’re able to be a bit kinder to yourself too, and more willing to just open up and talk about it. So I really appreciate, you sharing that in an, open way. So thank you.

Neseret: Yeah, no, thanks. I think, I agree with you about the self compassion and, it’s still not easy to do it, but I feel that I want to share my story and my journey so that if there’s somebody out there who is struggling and going through the same path that they have some hope, at least that’s what I got from watching the interviews that you’ve done as well.

Neseret: So I do appreciate what you do. Just giving people that space to share and. help, others

Martin: to just to return that appreciation, the podcast wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for guests like yourself being willing to come on and share their experience. And a lot of that experience contains a lot of struggle.

Martin: and maybe a lot of self judgment upon reflection. And it can be difficult to talk about these things. And yeah, I appreciate you coming on and being willing to talk about that.

Martin: So you’re at this situation where staying on the medication is associated with sleeping your life away. Coming off the medication is associated with not going to get any sleep. how did you, at first, when you first realized that you were stuck in that really difficult position, what did you do?

Martin: How did you respond? Were you looking for like alternative medications or alternative ways of addressing your sleep so you could move away from the medication? what were your first steps on that journey like?

Neseret: I was definitely felt like I was stuck for many years and just having to put up with the side effects of the medications and then trying to figure out a way to just figure out a way for me to get proper sleep and have just a healthy lifestyle.

Neseret: So I was looking for different ways and I believe in a holistic approach to healing in general. A few years ago, I decided to give up shift work and, got just a daytime job. So I was getting up every morning at the same time at five o’clock and that’s one of the things that you teach in terms of anchoring your sleep.

Neseret: And, and so I was just working Monday to Friday and I noticed throughout the year like something shifted from me. Like I felt better. My energy was a tiny little bit better and I just liked that schedule. And, so I was also trying different things like, walking a lot, like hiking five to 10 kilometers a day.

Neseret: I was, doing intermittent fasting. I was, doing some mindfulness, exercises. So I started really exploring all these different things. And, I eventually also did the ketogenic diet for, mental health. And between all of those things, the last thing was I had tapered off of, Multiple medications and the only one that was left was the mirtazapine and I was terrified.

Neseret: And so I was researching for sleep and that’s when I came across your information. And because I just thought, you know what, do I have to be on this medication for the rest of my life, even though I have all these other side effects? And I was just like, I don’t know how to get off of it. And I don’t know how to sleep.

Neseret: It was just like, I was just petrified. I was just like, I, don’t know how to do this and I can’t do this and I don’t want to stay on this medication. And so I would say it was like a seven year journey altogether when I started to really look at this holistic approach. And the sleep piece I knew was like foundational and I needed to sort through that and this medication wasn’t helping me.

Neseret: like you said, it was just like being stuck in a rock and a hard place, that expression. And so when I came across your information, I was just like, Oh my God. Okay. I think I have, there’s hope for me, but yeah, that was basically the journey that, I went through.

Martin: Wow. So you knew that you wanted to be off this medication.

Martin: And At the same time, you knew that if you just remove that medication or tape it off that medication, the sleep issues would show up again. So in the meantime, you’re looking at all these different ways of creating the best possible conditions for sleep or just setting yourself up for good sleep by Changing your job so you had a more consistent schedule, so you’re working the day shift, doing hiking, exploring mindfulness, different diets and different fasting, but you still knew that even with all that ongoing experimentation, there’s still that, what is it, what’s the expression, like the 300 pound gorilla in the room, which is the medication.

Neseret: Yes.

Martin: what was it when, you came across my work that you mentioned, that stood out and you thought, ah, there’s, something here, there’s there’s either an approach I haven’t tried, or there’s something here that resonates with me. What is it that stood out and made you think, ah, there’s, an option here, or there’s, a new way forward here?

Neseret: When I came across your work, you just had a way of explaining things that was so straightforward. And I liked your energy, like I’m sensitive to people’s energies, and I just felt like you were very grounded and down to earth.

Neseret: And you presented the information in a way that, That was so practical. and then listening to the podcast interviews, I really love hearing stories of people and just seeing their journey throughout and that transformation. And I just felt, I thought, okay, I’m going to, binge watch everything here and learn as much as I can.

Neseret: And that was really the information that gave me the confidence to finally taper off of this medication that I was, yeah, I became dependent on basically. I felt like I had the confidence. I was just like, I think I can do this now. and yeah, it was just incredibly helpful and liberating to, to actually have hope. It’s just Oh my goodness. Okay. I can do this now.

Martin: I get a lot of questions from people that feel ready to make changes to their approach to sleep, but they might be on a medication, various medications.

Martin: And a common question I get is, do I need to? My goal is to be off the medication. Do I need to be off the medication to start making these changes? And my answer is always no. As far as I’m concerned, the medication isn’t something that we really explore because I’m not a doctor. that’s a discussion for you to have with your doctor.

Martin: But really what, when I’m working with clients, we’re looking purely at behavior change. We’re looking at identifying current behaviors that aren’t really working. And, Exploring how we might be able to change them into behaviors that might be more helpful. Not only for sleep, but to move us closer to the life we want to live independently of sleep.

Martin: And so because we’re focused really on actions and practicing new actions and behaviors, forming new habits, really their skills. And we can practice new skills regardless of whether or not they’re helpful. medication or not. I’m curious, you mentioned that when you started to consume my content, you said that it gave you the confidence to start that tapering process.

Martin: Was it You worked through all the content and then you felt, okay, I’m ready to make these changes and start tapering immediately. Or did you start making the changes and then taper? I’m just curious, in the context there.

Neseret: This is a general guideline for psychiatric medication, especially if someone is on a prescribed psychiatric medication for sleep.

Neseret: Tapering in general needs to be approached. not lightly, like you really need to be very careful because some of the, withdrawal effects you can have serious impact. And that was the case with mirtazapine for me. So I really have to approach it with, so there is, I agree with you. There was like a psychological dependence and the, behavioral stuff that I had to learn, but there was also, a biological, chemical dependence. It’s one thing if you were just taking even melatonin or some sort of like herb or supplement. But I think when it comes to a more powerful medications like psychiatric medications, that tapering process to really needs to be approached with caution. And, I actually had to go through a compound pharmacy to make sure that I was tapering, and work with the pharmacist and a family physician.

Neseret: So it was a medically supervised taper. and to go very slowly because, there was withdrawal, effects. but what I did was I first went through your information and got the education piece and all the different, strategies and, like you said, behavioral changes, but I also realized, yes, it’s, it’s an, Attitude change and how you approach not just sleep, but like you were saying, life in terms of, being patient and, not expecting results right away.

Neseret: being able to have some flexibility in your thinking and approach, even like when you’re not being able to sleep at night, get out of your bed and just do something else for a little bit, as opposed to those things, were really helpful. And, So I first got, I think it depends on, for everyone that’s different and how they approach it.

Neseret: But for me, it was incredibly helpful for, to first go through your program, go through your information and have that, because I was just so terrified that wouldn’t have been a good experience for me to go through that taper. So your information is actually what gave me the confidence to go through the taper.

Neseret: Because, I felt like now I had knowledge and tools that I can do this. And that emotional, arousal of Oh my God, I am doing something, it’s not going to work, was not helpful for sleep anyways. So for me it was first go through your information and feel that, have that knowledge, have the tools, feel confident, and then went through the taper.

Martin: When I get that question, that’s largely my response. if, we can recognize that our approach to sleep is something we want to change and we’re taking medication. If we realize our approach to sleep is something we want to change, why wait? We don’t need to wait until we’re off medication or until we’re tapering medication to make changes to our approach to sleep if we feel our current approach isn’t working, right?

Martin: I think a lot of people come to me and they believe that they’ve got to be off medication for any of this to be worthwhile, but I don’t think that’s the case. Although everyone is the expert on themselves and it sounds as though what you’re saying from your own experience that wasn’t the case for you either.

Martin: You found it helpful to just start exploring this new approach, maybe getting some practice in with a few changes and then it was a decision you made a little bit further down the line. Okay, now I feel ready to talk to my doctor and come up with a specific tapering off plan at that time.

Neseret: Oh yeah, I actually, recommend all of my clients that I work with your program because I feel like it’s, such a, anybody who’s experiencing mental health and addictions issues, sleep is such a major issue.

Neseret: But I also feel like your approach and things, the tools that you teach, like I said, it’s not just helpful for sleep, but it’s a way of being that is just, mindful. And. I do feel that people can benefit from that whether they’re on medication or off medication and they can implement it at any time in the process.

Neseret: I just would make sure anybody who is on pretty powerful medications to take their time in the tapering process. But I agree with you in terms of that this could be implemented at any time. Just for me, this was what worked. but the sort of the teaching and the approach and the attitude, It can be helpful for anyone that is struggling with sleep at any point.

Neseret: Yeah.

Martin: And I appreciate the emphasis, too, that it’s important that if anyone is taking medication to talk to their doctor first, to talk about their plans, what they want to do, and to really work with, their physicians before making any changes. Now you’re able to look back, what do you feel that some of the, New approaches specifically to sleep that you made, or changes you made to how you approach sleep that helped you move away from the struggle?

Martin: What do you feel were some of the really helpful changes that you made?

Neseret: One of the first big ones was I had this idea that I needed eight hours of sleep to just function properly. And I remember the first night I was completely tapered off and I was a little anxious and I, I actually slept for three hours and I got up and I was so excited and I was just like, oh my goodness, like I fell asleep on my own and I stayed asleep for three hours and I told my partner that and the next morning I was so excited and it was just like, I haven’t done this like in 13 years.

Neseret: Just to be able to sleep and stay asleep on my own, and it was like, just a huge accomplishment. I feel really rested and I am not obsessing about Oh, I need nine hours or seven hours or, eight hours.

Neseret: as I just pay attention to my body and see how I feel, how my energy is and I’m okay with it. So that was a big one. Just this sort of like cultural conditioning and, idea of how much sleep somebody needs. And that was like a huge thing. and also another one was just that when you’re not able to sleep to get out of bed and, just do something else until you’re tired again.

Neseret: So just having that flexibility in your mind. You’re not forcing anything. That’s a really good sort of, life principle. It’s not just for sleep. Because we tend to just push against something when we’re struggling with whatever it is as opposed to just maybe hitting the pause button and stepping back and being like, okay, just be in a more surrendered state.

Neseret: And so that was another thing that I really appreciated about your teaching.

Martin: So it sounds as though It was almost like a mindset shift where you weren’t holding yourself to this standard of I need to get a certain amount or a certain type of sleep. and when that shift happened, maybe you were then in turn putting less pressure on yourself and maybe being a little bit less critical or self judgmental on any times or based on whatever happened from night to night.

Neseret: Yes. Yeah, that was huge. And along those lines too, you mentioned that sleep is like a natural human function that all of us just like breathing. We can do that. Our bodies can manage to do that. And so that was huge because I think when you are become dependent on a medication or a supplement or something outside of you to sleep, you get to that place where you’re thinking, I need something outside of me to get some sleep.

Neseret: And so it was so freeing to realize, you know what, I, my body has its own wisdom and I can fall asleep and I, I can stay asleep on my own. And so that was so important to realize. and there was, I remember in one of your emails you sent out, There was a quote about a person who was saying that when you give someone, a pill or something outside of themselves to sleep, you’re basically giving them the message that they can’t do that on their own.

Neseret: And so it’s really disempowering in the end. And that is something that I feel in, psychiatry, not just with sleep, but many other medications over medicated, on multiple medications, often they give them terrible side effects. And I’m not against, completely against psychiatric medications. I think in acute crisis and in a short, brief stabilization period, even if it’s sleeping medications to reset your sleep, those can be quite helpful.

Neseret: But long term people experience dependency, they experience, many unwanted effects and sometimes adverse effects and toxicity. And but also the message that, we all suffer and we all experience life challenges. And sometimes you go through stressful periods when sleep is going to be dis, disrupted.

Neseret: And that is temporary and it can be resolved. And there’s many other different paths and ways of coping and dealing with it. As opposed to this immediate of I want something to be fixed right away. That’s also like that mindfulness piece that I really appreciate about all of that is just being able to be patient and find creative ways to help a person, whether it’s to improve their mental health, whether it’s like you said, to live the best life that they can to find peace of mind contentment and or get a good night’s rest.

Neseret: So there’s different ways, creative ways to approach the path of healing and becoming whole. it’s not just medication and it’s not just therapy, like there’s many paths to healing.

Martin: Yeah, I think you, you touched upon this word flexibility earlier as well when you were talking about, how we respond to being awake during the night, for example.

Martin: There’s more than one way of responding to insomnia. And I think when we’re really caught up in the struggle, it feels like there’s only one way to respond.

Martin: And that is to fight it, try and destroy it, defeat it, get rid of it once and for all. And that is completely understandable. And yet for most of us, when we reflect on our experience, I think we can realize that although the approach is understandable, it doesn’t seem to be working over the long term.

Martin: And so maybe it is the fighting itself and the struggle that comes with that’s keeping us stuck where we are. so maybe there are other alternatives that we can explore. And I truly believe that no one is ever broken. It’s just so easy to get stuck and we just need to look at exploring new ways forward.

Martin: And I think there’s always a new way forward even when things feel completely hopeless.

Neseret: I love that. I absolutely love that because So many people I think that are struggling with insomnia or even with their mental health or with an addictions issue that’s where we get to we get a person gets to that place where they can You struggle so much for so long, you tend to lose hope and then you think, I think I’m stuck in this.

Neseret: And there is such a sense of, defeat and just feeling like you don’t have anything. And so that idea of, what you’re describing to me is like surrender. to be in a surrendered place, but also, to be open, like just open to the possibility that there might be hope or there might be, help and, then being willing to look in different ways and different directions.

Neseret: I think that’s where I came to in my sort of like 13 year journey, halfway through. I did come to a place where I was really losing hope. I felt I was so stuck that, and also feeling like I was a burden It was very painful. And that’s really hard to admit, but I know it is something that impacts so many people. but during that halfway place where I was starting to explore alternative and complementary and holistic approaches, That’s when I was in that place of surrender and thinking, okay, maybe, I’m trying to figure this out on my own.

Neseret: But maybe there’s, a different way to look at this. Because I looked at it in one way, which is, as, my training as a psychiatric nurse, as a registered nurse, is based on western medicine and, psychiatric care, which is very much heavily reliant on the biomedical model. And that, there’s something genetic, chemical, which is, by the way, not necessarily, there’s some truth to that, but it’s not entirely true.

Neseret: it was the willingness to be open to other possibilities and ways of healing, not just the one way that we know, which is diagnose, medicate, and this is it. And I think I, to some extent, bought into that. And that’s not from, my background. I’m actually originally from Ethiopia, East Africa.

Neseret: And my ancestors, that’s not the way they looked at things. people were into exploring spirituality, connection, and community. my grandmother was like a herbalist. My grandfather was, a dream interpreter and a farmer. And so I come from that rich indigenous background where medication and therapy, that’s, not even, it’s looked at as one path of healing, but it’s not everything.

Neseret: And so that idea, I really appreciate your teaching around that in terms of the, not fighting against something and just thinking that is the only way to solve that problem. But to actually really look at that. And that is a life principle. It’s not even like, I said, the thing that I love about the way you teach things, is that these principles are good for sleep for sure.

Neseret: fantastic, but they are, have deeper implications for a human being in the way they look at life and in the way they approach life altogether, which is really beautiful. So you benefit from, getting good rest, but you also get tools to live your life in a way that actually makes sense and will help you have some peace and contentment.

Martin: Again, I really appreciate just your openness and your honesty, sharing, the struggles and your thoughts that you’re having at the time when things felt hopeless, because my goodness, there’s no doubt that when things feel hopeless, it’s really difficult and it can really feel as though there’s no other options.

Martin: There’s no way forward. but I think that even when things are hopeless, there’s always a way forward. It’s just that we might not be aware of what that way is yet. and it, in a way, It’s almost the signal of an opportunity because when we feel hopeless it shows that maybe what we’ve been doing up to this point isn’t the right approach for us.

Martin: It’s that, whatever it is that’s leading us to feel hopeless isn’t the right thing for us, and that’s okay. Even, it might be, it might, in air quotations, work for 99 percent of people, but that doesn’t mean it should work for you. It just means that we need to explore ways forward that are right for you, and everyone is different, and I think there’s always opportunity to move forward.

Martin: new approach you were exploring was helpful for sleep, but also it seemed to offer you benefits in other ways related to living the life you want to live, and developing some growth or some new other skills in living your daytime life.

Martin: doing things that matter to you. I’m living a more rich, more and more rewarding life. Can you dig a little bit deeper there?

Neseret: Yeah. so I think what happened was, I told you that I was, work is really important and meaningful for me personally.

Neseret: And, I remember at the time I came across your work, I was heading down to burnout, which was a long, a long time ago. And, I was actually looking for ways to do my work in a more meaningful and creative way. And so it’s interesting when I came across your information and I saw how you are approaching your work and the service that you’re providing and in the way you’re providing it.

Neseret: I remember thinking, wow, this is really fantastic. And I would love to, do something like this, but I’m in this path that I’ve been on for 17 years and, I loved doing what I was doing. I was always been fascinated with sort of human psychology and loved working with people. I felt I was privileged to do what I do.

Neseret: just giving, creating a safe space for people to share what was going on for them. But I was very discontent with how. because of the many challenges that are in the system and that it didn’t align with who I was and what I believed in, terms of how to approach people in distress. and so I wanted to do something different and I just remember, and I’ve always had that in the back of my mind.

Neseret: And when I came across your work, and I’ve come across other people as well, but Your, information really deeply resonated with me because sleep is something that is such a major issue for individuals, many of the individuals that I’ve worked with and for myself. And so I was looking at it not only because, from a perspective of a client in terms of your work, I was looking at it from, as a clinician as well, who wanted to branch away from the traditional and conventional system And do something different.

Neseret: And so I thought I need to learn something from Martin and see what he’s doing. And maybe this is possible for me as well. And so there was a huge major decision that I made at that point. It wasn’t too long ago. I’m talking about Oh, about, October, November of last year, just, and, that was something that was a huge decision, not only because I had this period of stability and I had implemented so many things that are holistic and I was able to put a condition that is considered, I was told, was chronic, lifelong, and I had to be on medication for years.

Neseret: And I would need, medication to help me sleep and eat and all of that. And I was able to put that into remission. And. Bipolar disorder and remission are not never in the same sentence in psychiatry. And so that, that inspiration came and I thought, okay, I’m going to do this. And so that was a, I made a major decision to leave, a 17 year career and start my own business.

Neseret: So not only did you help me with my sleep, but you also inspired me in the way you are doing your business. to be like, you know what, maybe there’s a way for me to use everything that I have learned and gone through personally and professionally and bring that into, doing, and, creating something, an alternative approach for others to give them an option as well.

Neseret: So I, I made those two decisions, major, shifts and changes and thank you. I want to say thank you so much.

Martin: I can provide some information and maybe act as a guide, but really you’re the one that makes the changes and makes the decisions. I hope that you’re able to give yourself like 99 percent of the credit because you’re the one that did all the work.

Martin: but it sounds as though now you’re able to look back on this whole experience that and you’re able to reflect on what you’ve learned, how you’ve grown, how you’ve changed, what the transformation has been like, that it’s felt quite empowering to you and that sense of empowerment has got you enthusiastic to explore what you can do with that, what you can do with that period of growth that you’ve experienced and maybe live a life that’s more aligned with who you are or who you want to be.

Neseret: Oh, absolutely. And that’s been a huge blessing. And it was terrifying at first, to leave something that was so familiar and I have been identified with for so long, but it also, I had that desire to find something, a path that was more aligned with who I was. And also, I felt limited in what I could offer people as a psych nurse because in the traditional system, like I said, there’s only a couple of different options that people have.

Neseret: And so for me to, now, as a coach and can, and I had started my own company, I have, a YouTube channel that, I, create videos for and, it’s a, major shift, but it does feel like, it’s freeing, and also it allows more creativity for me, and, I had to also be in a surrendered place there because, there’s a lot of, uncertainty and the unknown in making that transition.

Neseret: And so again, those mindset, things that you mentioned like surrender and flexibility and maybe even just sitting with the unknown and, uncertainty and being okay with it. just the same as when you’re like wake up in the middle of the night at 2 a. m. and you have anxiety or fear or you can’t sleep for whatever reason.

Neseret: You just accept that, okay, this is what’s happening right now, and we’re gonna just be with it. Maybe there’s something that can be done, and maybe there isn’t. But either way, not to make it into a huge problem, but to just go with the flow for the moment, and then out of that will come whatever the next, the right step is going to be.

Neseret: And it, those principles that you teach about sleep are actually really have a lot of application in many ways. so yeah, I am really grateful that I have my health, my, I’m completely tapered off of all medication, psychiatric medications. I am no longer experiencing any symptoms of depression or hypomania.

Neseret: And, my sleep is good. I, My energy is good. I sleep about six hours. So it’s incredible to have so many hours to work with every day and to do different things like enjoy with family and work and, read and just go for nature walks and all those things. it’s just amazing to have not to be sleeping two thirds of your life.

Neseret: And also not sleeping and not having any sleep. So it’s just to find that balance and, also to. Help support people through that process as well and give them an option, an alternative to the traditional conventional system. it’s, been amazing. Like I, and like I said, I, every client that I have, I’m like, you have to talk to Martin

Martin: I appreciate that. Were there any other changes that you made or practiced during this process that you’re able to reflect on and you think, yeah, that was really helpful for me.

Neseret: Yeah, there’s so many things, that can be really helpful. I think the first step is just, knowledge. I think that piece is real, really critical. If you can educate yourself about, this work and I spend some time listening to the stories. That’s huge.

Neseret: That part is really critical. Knowledge is power. And then the next thing would be, The willingness to commit to something that is going to take time. Like a lot of the times we seem to want something to be sorted out right away, like a quick fix. And I would say this work is not a quick fix. I would say this was about, for me, starting to give up shift work that was like a couple of years back.

Neseret: And then. coming across your work and then tapering off of medication. So it was a process. I’m not saying it’s going to take you a year or two years, but you need to give yourself some time and have realistic expectations of what you can achieve during that time. That in the beginning, it’s going to be a little bit of up and down until you get to a place where you can have that stability and consistency with sleep.

Neseret: So to just, be willing to have those incremental shifts over time. And I think that applies for our health in general and for many things that are worthwhile in life, that nothing happens overnight. And there might be some, growing pains and process as you go through. But if you’re willing to stick with it and learn and be patient with yourself, and like you said, have self compassion.

Neseret: I think that’s huge. because a lot of the times, we’re too hard on ourselves, and that is not helping. That’s not helpful to us. So if we can develop like a way to just relate and be more compassionate and soothing, self soothing as well, then It just makes that process a little bit easier and also To be able to be willing to reach out for help and support.

Neseret: I know like I said, I wasn’t very good at it over the years and I felt because I was a psychiatric nurse mental health professional then I should have my stuff and I shouldn’t need help and also sometimes you feel like there’s that divide but I realized over time I was like i’m no different than any of my clients.

Neseret: They’re human beings. I’m human being they suffer. I suffer You we all don’t want to suffer. So it’s just I had to come to that place where I’m just like, yeah, I, need to figure this out and then to be able to help others as well. and so I guess my point was, don’t be afraid to reach out for help and support, like your information.

Neseret: I think you are doing amazing work. if you’re really struggling it it helps to have someone who has, who knows, who has knowledge and who can guide you through that process, and and there’s no shame in asking for help and support. I think as human beings, we thrive with encouragement and support and the, thing about hiring a coach or working with someone who is, who knows what they’re doing is that it cuts off so much of your struggle and it shortens that time.

Neseret: And so it makes it much, much easier than having to struggle on your own.

Martin: You touched upon the ups and downs, which I’m really grateful for because it’s never plain sailing, right? it can be easy for, People to listen to these podcast episodes, and unless we specifically talk about it, to believe that progress should be linear, it should just be good night after good night or get better and better but there are always ups and downs.

Martin: There are always setbacks. Setbacks are a part of progress. How did you deal with them whilst you were tapering away from the medication and practicing this new approach to sleep? So when these difficult nights maybe show back up again, how did you respond to them in a way that kept you moving forward?

Neseret: I was, so grateful to, even have an hour of sleep or two hours of sleep on my own. It was just like everything was a win after that. Like the fact that I was able to just fall asleep and stay asleep. That was a huge thing. And then any, anything else after that, it was just like, just a victory.

Neseret: I love reading. So if I wake up and I’m not able to go back to sleep, I just get up and do some work. And then usually within a couple hours, I’ll feel tired again and I’ll go back.

Neseret: And, I just, like you said before, I just didn’t want to make sleep into a problem anymore. I don’t want, it’s something that has, we need as human beings and that’s okay, I accept that. But let it be however way it looks. And that’s again, our life as much as we like to for it to be a certain way, like I didn’t see myself, my career necessarily ending in the way that it did after two decades of investing all my time and energy.

Neseret: I can just stay bitter and unhappy about the whole thing, or I can just shift and pivot and do something else and be grateful for the experience that I’ve had, even what I went through personally or whatever suffering that came out of that. That I could use that now to make a difference in the lives of others.

Neseret: I, like I said, it’s there’s such, so many parallels between sleep and our approach and attitude towards it and the way we live our lives as well. Which is, again, just being mindful and being grateful. So yeah, if I sleep four or five hours or three hours, I’m grateful for that. I’m just like, okay, I got some sleep.

Neseret: I don’t make it into a problem anymore. Yeah, it’s not, sleep doesn’t occupy my mind as much. Now, as much as it did way, before,

Martin: I think there’s always an opportunity to notice a glimmer, even if it’s just a glimmer of positivity or hope, and to just tease that out and be more aware of it. And I think it’s a skill and it requires practice, but the more we can practice looking for the positives, because our mind doesn’t normally go there by itself. We have to make that conscious effort. It really can help change our mindset. when we focus on our successes or we reflect on other times in our life when we’ve got through adversity, when we think about what strengths we have and how we can use these to get through these difficult periods and when we have less expectations. around things like sleep, like I should get, or I need to get, I have to get, I must get. We put so much burden on ourselves to perform in a certain way, which in other areas of life, maybe that can motivate us. But when it comes to sleep, Usually what happens is the more we try to make a certain amount or type of sleep happen, the more difficult it can become.

Martin: so just look, that mindset shift is I think it’s a common theme or a common thread that runs through these podcast episodes that a lot of people identify with. It’s almost like the first thing that changed, not before even sleep started to change, was the mindset change. how we interpret.

Martin: what happens from night to night and what our relationship with sleep is like tends to change. And then once that becomes more entrenched, once sleep starts to lose its power and influence over our lives, that’s when the body maybe takes over and is more likely to start generating more sleep or better quality sleep or more consistent sleep.

Neseret: Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think that little bit of appreciation goes a long way.

Martin: You touched upon this career change that you embarked upon. So it sounds like you’re in the coaching field yourself. what kind of clients are you looking to take on or what kind of clients do you help?

Neseret: So the clients that I work with are individuals who are struggling with their mental health.

Neseret: they may or may not have a diagnosed, a sort of a diagnosis. many of them are on medications, but they don’t have to be. Okay. and I work with individuals, adults, and at risk youth, and their parents. And, I basically help advocate for them to, navigate the traditional system, because I have a lot of knowledge around that.

Neseret: But I also, have taken a course in metabolic psychiatry, and, believe in a holistic approach. So I help people if they want to Approach that path with, less medication, go through a process of reducing significantly or tapering. I connect with their clinicians and work with that, as well as helping them implement the ketogenic diet and for mental health and, addressing all the different aspects, of their health, not just, lifestyle changes, like making sure that they have proper sleep, reducing stress, being mindful, exploring spirituality, whatever that means to them, creativity, meaningful work, like looking at it from many different sides.

Martin: Where can people find you if they’re interested in learning more about what you do?

Neseret: so I have a YouTube channel, Nesra Bemiant, and I’m also on Twitter.

Martin: Great. I’ll be sure to put links to those in the show notes for anyone that wants to check out more about the work you do and your philosophy and your approach. yeah. I, really appreciate the time that you’ve taken out your day to come on, Neseret. I do have one last question for you, which I would like to pose and see what insights you can share with us.

Martin: and it’s this. If someone is listening to this and they just feel that they’ve tried everything, they’re beyond help, they Just cannot move away from the insomnia struggle. What would you say to them?

Neseret: That’s a really tough place to be. And it can feel like you’re on your own and alone in it. And it’s tough when you’re in that space to feel like there is, because you’ve struggled for so long, that there’s any help or hope.

Neseret: that’s understandable. At the same time, I know, that if you’re willing to keep an open mind that there’s a way for things to be better, then there’s that possibility. and that’s hard when you’ve tried so, for so long to, and struggled for, quite a time. but I would say, Spend some time on, Martin’s, channel and subscribe to the email so that you get those, lessons and start with that and then start applying just a little bit baby steps, and be patient with yourself, really be patient with yourself and see where that goes.

Neseret: You can’t, you have to first, it’s hard to try something new when you have tried so many things and hasn’t worked out, but this is something that is going to, that you’re going to create from within yourself. It’s not anything that’s going to come from outside of you. And the major piece, like even in our conversation today, and Martin, you said like the, there’s a theme that runs through this, the biggest shift that you’re going to make is a mental shift and an attitude shift.

Neseret: And that can be started anytime, at any point, from where you are. Even if it is to say, you know what, I’m going to try one more thing, and I’m going to try this thing, and I’m gonna make change. And just be willing to be open to that possibility, that you have the power within you, even in times when it feels hopeless, and you have tried everything, that there may be something else.

Neseret: And the biggest shift is going to be that journey that you make in your mind and in your heart and in your attitude.

Martin: Thank you again, Nesret, for taking the time to come onto the podcast and share your experience. It’s appreciated.

Neseret: Thank you so much for having me. I really, I have a lot of respect for what you do.

Neseret: And I’m, thank you so much for what you’ve given me as well, through your example and through your work.

Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me.

Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep.