
The Divine Council Worldview Podcast
Welcome to the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, where hosts Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu honor the legacy of their late friend and colleague Dr. Michael S. Heiser (author of the best-selling book The Unseen Realm). Our interest is the Bible, studying it through the lens of its original authors and audience. We will specifically take notice of created divine beings and the role they play in the physical cosmos through the ultimate authority of Yahweh, the God of Israel. Join the fun conversation!
Latest episodes

7 snips
Jun 4, 2024 • 1h 12min
EP015: Genesis 12 & the God’s Covenant with Abraham
The discussion centers on God's covenant with Abram in Genesis 12, highlighting its implications for mankind amidst idolatry. Personal anecdotes reveal the impact of different Bible translations on understanding scripture. Insights into Abram's polytheistic background and his calling emphasize the shift towards worshiping Yahweh. There’s an exploration of modern spirituality intertwined with cultural customs and the identity of Israel, suggesting an inclusive understanding of Gentiles within the covenant. Overall, it reflects on Abraham’s enduring legacy and faithfulness.

16 snips
May 28, 2024 • 57min
EP014: Genesis 11 & the Tower of Babel
The discussion revolves around the iconic Tower of Babel, revealing its purpose as an attempt to worship created deities. The hosts delve into the origins of language and its connection to the diversity of nations. The theological implications of Babel are explored, particularly how human ambition intersects with divine authority. Additionally, the podcast emphasizes the essential theme of true worship, arguing that misdirected worship is humanity's core dilemma. The journey from idolatry to devotion highlights the transformative faith of figures like Abraham.

12 snips
May 21, 2024 • 52min
EP013: The Genealogy of Genesis 10
Delve into the intriguing genealogies of Genesis 10, revealing key historical insights from Noah to Abraham. The podcast touches on the curse of Canaan and its impact on later confrontations with pagan worship. Listeners explore how Noah's descendants spread across geographical regions, signaling a shift away from Yahweh-worship. The discussion culminates at the Tower of Babel, foreshadowing the emergence of diverse languages and the rise of other gods. A captivating journey through ancient lineage and theological implications awaits!

May 13, 2024 • 1h 28min
EP012: Crossing Cultures: Superstition, Scripture, and the Missionary Mandate
Join us for a thought-provoking discussion as we delve into personal journeys shaped by 'The Unseen Realm' and the profound impact of the supernatural on missions. Delve into the intriguing intersections of superstition, idolatry, and missionary work across diverse cultures. From pagan traditions in Christianity to demon possession in India, we explore how context shapes our understanding of scripture and the global dissemination of the Biblical message with knowledge. Uncover the epic narrative of the Bible alongside similar tales worldwide, while examining the crucial role of like-minded communities and the influence of fatherhood in our quest to spread the message of salvation.

May 5, 2024 • 53min
EP011: God’s Response to a Divine Insurgency
This episode finds Ronn and Mike discussing Genesis 6-9, which begins with that odd story of the “sons of god” producing nephilim through human women (6:1-4). They agree with early Christian and Jewish tradition in viewing this story as an intense divine rebellion which led to God’s decision to destroy the world with a flood. They consider what this account might mean to the larger narrative of the Bible, admitting in the end that we are left with many unanswered questions. Their conversation then notes how Noah's righteousness (taken to be his simple worship of the creator God) is compared to the corruption that had overrun humanity. The episode concludes with an overview of the year-long journey that Noah’s family took on the ark, comparing this Genesis account with similar flood records in other ancient Near Eastern cultures. At least one objective becomes evident as this story ends: God is starting over, now with a new Adam named Noah.

Apr 29, 2024 • 49min
EP010: The Genealogy of Genesis 5
In this episode, Ronn and Mike review the place of Genesis 5 in the early story of the Bible. They suspect that this list of fathers and sons was formatted to suit a literary purpose as well as to recognize that a line of Yahweh-worshippers could be identified between Adam and Noah. Enoch is noted as among these righteous men, mysteriously disappearing off the earth after faithfully walking with his God. At the conclusion of this episode they introduce the pivotal narrative which took place during the days of Noah: a certain number of bene elohim (a Hebrew phrase signifying god-class or divine beings) became involved with the human race resulting in the birth of nephilim, “famous men” known to the original readers. This is truly one of the most unusual stories in all the Bible—yet it is also a significant story in the development of a Divine Council worldview.

Apr 22, 2024 • 54min
EP009: Did Cain Worship another God?
In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss the events described in Genesis 4. They challenge the popular notion that God was frustrated with Cain's vegetable offering, suspecting that something much more ominous was at stake. After surveying the story of Cain and his expanding family, they recommend that the last verse of the chapter offers the necessary clue for understanding the chapter as a whole—where we hear that Yahweh-worship eventually returned to Adam's family through Enosh, the son of Seth (4:26). Thus Genesis 4 is describing something worse than just the spread of sin; it is the spread of non-Yahwistic worship through Adam's own son. It will come as no surprise to find that the New Testament labels Cain as "of the evil one" (1 John 3:12).

Apr 15, 2024 • 60min
EP008: Fond Memories & Future Vision
In this episode, hosts Rich and Mel share personal anecdotes about their relationship with Dr. Michael Heiser, and reminisce on how they first met. They then delve into their shared passion and vision of integrating Dr. Heiser's teachings with the core message of the Gospel. Together, they aim to foster discipleship and inspire listeners to embark on their own transformative journey.

Apr 8, 2024 • 1h 12min
EP007: Digging Around the Garden of Eden
In this episode, Ronn and Mike return to Genesis 2 & 3 and ponder some of the specific stories related to the Garden of Eden. What did the two trees mean, or represent? How was Eve "made," and what was her relationship to Adam? Who or what was the serpent? Even more importantly, what was the temptation that the serpent presented to the human pair? Was it to become like Yahweh, or to become a divine being, even like the snake himself?

Apr 1, 2024 • 58min
EP006: Interview with Matthew Bates, Author of Why the Gospel?
In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, Ronn and Mike interview Dr. Matthew Bates, author of Why the Gospel? Living the Good News of King Jesus with Purpose (Christianity Today’s 2024 book award winner in the category of Popular Theology). Their conversation surveys the narrative nature of the gospel story, the meaning of divine kingship in the first century, and the modern implications of living under Jesus’ sovereignty. In the end, Bates sees the gospel as much more than the forgiveness of sins. He believes that being a Christian includes both an intentional confession of Jesus as King and a commitment of allegiance to this King. Get the book here: Why the Gospel? Living the Good News of King Jesus with Purpose
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