
The Divine Council Worldview Podcast
Welcome to the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, where hosts Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu honor the legacy of their late friend and colleague Dr. Michael S. Heiser (author of the best-selling book The Unseen Realm). Our interest is the Bible, studying it through the lens of its original authors and audience. We will specifically take notice of created divine beings and the role they play in the physical cosmos through the ultimate authority of Yahweh, the God of Israel. Join the fun conversation!
Latest episodes

4 snips
Sep 16, 2024 • 1h 22min
EP025: Genesis 18 & Abraham's Three Heavenly Visitors
In this episode, Ronn and Mike explore Genesis 18's story of Abraham and Sarah being told by three messengers that they would soon bear a son to fulfill the promises of God. The biggest shock of the story, of course, will be to hear one of the visitors speak as though he is Yahweh! Ronn and Mike consider the possible options for identifying this messenger, leaning into the relationship ejoyned between messengers and senders as practiced in ancient Near Eastern cultures. The episode also considers what Abraham likely understood by his use of the important words righteous and wicked (18:25).

14 snips
Aug 26, 2024 • 1h 49min
EP024: Christus Victor and the Divine Council: A Church's Journey in Palmdale, CA
Pastor Anthony Delgado, leader of Palmdale Church and author of "The Gospel is Bigger Than You Think," shares insights on his ministry's transformation through Dr. Michael Heiser's Divine Council worldview. He discusses creating an inclusive church for working-class families while addressing local challenges like substance abuse. Delgado emphasizes the journey of faith as ongoing, the importance of community support, and highlights the role of Jesus as Christus Victor, fostering deeper connections and understanding within his congregation.

Aug 12, 2024 • 1h 20min
EP023: Genesis 17 & the Covenant of Ishmael
In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 17 and the story of Ishmael. They explore the possibility that Ishamel made a covenant with a divine being other than Yahweh, even a god disloyal to Yahweh. They discuss the theological and historical implications of this view, particularly in relation to the rise of Muslim tradition and its attachment to Ishmael. The episode concludes with a discussion on the significance of circumcision, its meaning in the ancient world, and its possible significance as a sign of the covenant between Abraham and Yahweh.

Aug 4, 2024 • 1h 8min
EP022: Genesis 16 and the Angel of the Lord
In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 16 and the being known as "the Angel of the Lord." They begin by acknowledging that differences of opinion will be common when dealing with the word 'angel,' the transliteration of a Latin word appearing in the Wycliffe Bible of the 14th century. Ronn argues that 'angel' does not accurately represent the Hebrew term for 'messenger' (mal'ak) because it has become packed with unhelpful connotations of meaning over time. Ronn and Mike conclude the podcast by exploring the use of first person speech patterns used by messengers (both human and divine) in the ancient Near East.

Jul 28, 2024 • 1h 5min
EP021: Genesis 15 and the Land Promise
In this episode, Ronn and Mike conclude their study of Genesis 15. Their topics of conversation include the meaning of righteousness and its connection to loyalty and promise-keeping in the story of Abraham. They also consider the significance of the land promise as the early patriarchs understood it and how it evolves throughout the biblical narrative. They conclude with an exploration of the concept of "nationing" and the possible role of borders in the new creation.

Jul 22, 2024 • 1h 32min
EP020: Transforming Perspectives: From Church Teachings to Real-World Impact
Join Pastor Jim Bergen, head pastor of Flatirons Community Church, as he shares his transformative journey into the Divine Council worldview. He discusses the challenges of integrating this supernatural perspective into church teachings and its impact on personal and societal issues. Discover how this approach fosters dignity in community engagement, encourages spiritual warfare, and empowers a proactive response to social challenges. Explore the importance of deeper theological understanding and authentic connections among congregational members, especially the younger generation.

Jun 30, 2024 • 1h 5min
EP019: Genesis 15 and Abraham's Loyalty
In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss the concept of Abraham's righteousness as won through his allegiance to Yahweh in the story of Genesis 15. They explore the idea of believing loyalty (Hebrew, aman) and how it is often misunderstood in evangelical circles when defining the gospel. They highlight the importance of understanding the OT cultural context behind the concept of faith, even recommending that we take the English word "faith" out of our vocabulary when trying to explain the story of Abraham's commitment to Yahweh. The conversation concludes by summarizing the NT meaning of what it means to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jun 23, 2024 • 1h 7min
EP018: Genesis 14: Melchizedek & The God Most High
In this episode Ronn and Mike discuss the meeting of Abraham and Melchizedek in Genesis 14, even considering whether this kind of story supports the idea of divine portals or “heavenly gates” in the biblical narrative (Gen 12:8; 13:4; 28:11-12; 35:7). Most interesting to this story, of course, is their joint realization that they worshipped the same deity (el-elyon, ‘the high god’ cp. Pss 9:2; 7:17; 82:6; Isaiah 14:14; Luke 1:20, 32). This suggests that Yahweh (who had not revealed his name to either man at this point) was actively working behind the scenes in the lives of both individuals long before they met.

Jun 20, 2024 • 1h 7min
EP017: Genesis 12 & 13: Undoing the Covenants of Babel
In this episode, Ronn and Mike recommend that Genesis 12 and 13—the story of Abraham beginning to worship Yahweh while rejecting his tribal gods of Babylon—sets the framing story for the Bible as a whole. These early narratives are not concerned with sin and forgiveness, in other words, nor even the expectation of a Messiah. They instead answer the question of which deity a person needs to worship in order to be blessed and to be a blessing to others. It is suggested that a Creation/Covenants/Crisis model of the Old Testament's big story should replace the Creation/Crisis/Covenant outline that we so often hear about. The stories of Genesis 12 & 13 tell of a normal man facing natural fears who yet covenants with the right god. The fact that Yahweh would have been understood as a minority (even unknown) deity at this point makes the plot all the more fascinating.

Jun 13, 2024 • 1h 8min
EP016: Divine Foundations: Embracing Obedience in Everyday Missions
Get ready to be inspired, challenged, and equipped to make a difference in the world around you! In this episode, Mel delves into the transformative power of meaningful interactions and the importance of open minds and hearts when sharing Biblical insights. He emphasizes putting knowledge into action in making disciples, urging listeners to share their personal stories of divine guidance in everyday moments. Mel expounds on missionary work, highlighting that it’s not just about far-off lands, but also about nurturing relationships within our own families. Amidst the discussion, Mel navigates the poignant absence of his co-host Rich, who has been battling medical issues and will be back in future episodes, reminding us all of the power of prayer and support. Tune in to discover how you can be part of God’s grand plan and make a lasting impact right where you are!
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