To Catch a Thief: China’s Rise to Cyber Supremacy

In this enlightening discussion, cybersecurity expert Jim Lewis, China consultant Dakota Carey, and senior advisor Matt Turpin delve into the alarming infiltration of Chinese hackers into U.S. critical infrastructure. They highlight the urgent implications for national security and discuss the looming military tensions in Taiwan. Topics include the growing cyber threats, the significance of AI security, and the need for collective action against vulnerabilities. The conversation paints a chilling picture of the digital battlefield, stressing that proactive measures are essential to counter these risks.

Cybersecurity experts reveal alarming tactics used by hackers infiltrating U.S. critical infrastructure. These cyber invaders lie in wait, avoiding detection while posing significant risks to vital systems. The discussion delves into vulnerabilities stemming from the privatization of infrastructure and the rapid pace of innovation. A focus on TP-Link routers uncovers serious security flaws, raising concerns about their ties to Chinese supply chains. With rising geopolitical tensions, the unpredictable nature of cyber warfare is explored, highlighting potential threats to everyday services.

Nick Lawler, General Manager of Littleton Electric Light and Water Departments, shares his shocking experience with a cyberattack from Chinese hackers. He recounts the alarming call from the FBI, revealing systemic vulnerabilities in U.S. utilities. The discussion highlights the urgent need for enhanced cyber preparedness as small operators often underestimate their risks. Lawler also delves into the broader implications of cyber warfare, likening modern attacks to weapons of mass destruction, underscoring the grave consequences for critical infrastructure.

The transformation of Chinese cyber operations is fascinating, moving from the chaotic PLA to a stealthier, strategic approach under the Ministry of State Security. Elite hacker groups now dominate, unleashing sophisticated attacks like Operation Cloudhopper. The surge in zero-day vulnerabilities highlights a lucrative black market for exploits and the dangers of espionage. As cyber warfare escalates, especially with threats to critical infrastructure, global responses are urgently needed, particularly in the context of China-Taiwan tensions.

Matt Turpin, former National Security Council China director and advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, dives into the critical U.S.-China cyber diplomacy. He discusses the urgency of addressing Chinese trade theft as U.S. businesses were losing their secrets. The revelation of Edward Snowden complicated the narrative, unexpectedly creating a window for a diplomatic agreement with Xi Jinping. Turpin highlights the tensions of intellectual property theft, the challenges in negotiations, and the significant reduction in cyber breaches following their historic agreement.

In a gripping discussion, Steve Stone, a former turbine maker and expert on Chinese hacking units, uncovers the alarming scale of cyberattacks from China. He highlights how victims often conceal breaches, limiting the government's response. The conversation dives into the New York Times' brave decision to reveal its own breach, prompting the Obama Administration to take action against Chinese military hackers. Stone explains the transformation of China's hacking strategies, evolving from clumsy attempts to precise operations, revealing the intricate web of espionage tactics.

For this special live recording of To Catch a Thief at The New York Stock Exchange, host and former lead cybersecurity and digital espionage reporter for The New York Times, Nicole Perlroth sits down with those who have been directly targeted by, traced, or directly engaged China’s state-sponsored hackers, diplomatically, or in the cyber domain: Pulitzer Prize winning journalist David Barboza, the National Security Agency’s former Cybersecurity Director Rob Joyce, former Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency Director Jen Easterly, Jim Lewis, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies and Rubrik CEO Bipul Sinha. They discuss how the Chinese hacking threat has morphed from corporate espionage to insidious attacks on infrastructure, the strategic leverage China hopes to gain with these hacks, how Xi Jinping views Trump 2.0, and what levers the United States can still pull to salvage what’s left of its cyber defense.

Jim Lewis, a leading expert on Chinese cyber espionage, shares his insights on alarming hacking tactics targeting American businesses, including airlines and startups. He discusses a striking incident involving a Wisconsin welding shop turned staging ground for cyberattacks. Lewis elaborates on the implications of intellectual property theft and the complex history of China's economic transformation from Mao to Deng. He also highlights the emotional and financial toll of espionage, offering chilling examples of companies affected by these aggressive tactics.

David Barboza, a former New York Times correspondent known for investigating the secret wealth of Chinese leaders, joins the discussion. He shares his harrowing experience when hackers, linked to a Chinese military unit, infiltrated The Times to thwart his groundbreaking investigation. The conversation reveals the chilling implications of cybersecurity breaches, the consequences of journalistic integrity under threat, and the risks of exposing corruption amidst rising tensions between China and the U.S.

Former NSA Director Keith Alexander describes China's cyber operations as the greatest transfer of wealth in history. The episode reveals the intense cyber rivalry between the US and China, highlighting significant losses in American intellectual property. A pivotal security breach at Google sparked a deep investigation, while the extensive surveillance culture in China targets dissidents and minority groups. The oppressive balance between technological advancements and personal privacy raises ethical dilemmas for tech companies facing state censorship and security demands.