Positive Disintegration

In episode 33, Chris and Emma talked with David Sweeney, a fellow traveler on the path to authenticity. Identified as gifted late in life, David shared his introduction to positive disintegration, his understanding of giftedness, and insights into how trauma early in life shaped his abilities.We discussed discovering the theory of positive disintegration and overexcitabilities, dealing with sensitivities in daily life, and then talked about some of the reading rabbit holes David tumbled down like Alice! This includes his reading into giftedness, researching neuroscience, and discovering how trauma relates to his experience of being adopted.The conversation then turns to mysticism, having mystical experiences, and some of the complications of discussing those experiences in the modern world.Links from this episodeFor more on Elizabeth Mika, see Episode 17InterGiftedPersonality-Shaping through Positive Disintegration by Kazimierz Dabrowski (2015 reprint)PositiveDisintegration.comThird Factor MagazineLiving with Intensity by Daniels & PiechowskiKelly PrydeGifted Mindfulness CollectiveFrames of Mind by Howard GardnerThe Highly Sensitive PersonThe Mind Illuminated by John YatesThe Primal Wound by Nancy VarrierComing Home to Self by Nancy VerrierEknath Easwaran’s Blue Mountain Center of MeditationSocial links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 32, Chris and Emma talked with Sophia Elliott, parent, advocate, and host of the Our Gifted Kids podcast. We covered a wide range of topics in this conversation, from learning about Dąbrowski’s theory, neurodiversity, and giftedness to education, policy, and parenting challenges. We also covered storytelling, podcasting, and the value of sharing our personal experiences.Sophia talked about the beauty of positive disintegration as an alternative framework. She described the overexcitabilities as a “gateway drug” that draws people in and said that it’s meaningful to go deeper into the theory as a way of understanding ourselves from a non-pathologizing perspective. We talked about Dąbrowski as a forerunner of the neurodiversity movement and his theory as intuitive and forward-thinking. As we have seen clearly in recent years, anxiety and depression are often natural reactions to the world we live in.We discussed giftedness as a neurodivergent way of being in its own right and that its impact goes far beyond the educational setting. Although education is the field that has taken it most seriously, Sophia reminded us of the need to study giftedness in other fields, such as psychology and medicine. General practitioners, pediatricians, and other doctors need a basic understanding of the reality of this experience.There are real challenges to giftedness as well as overexcitability. We discuss how Dąbrowski’s views are more aligned with how neurodiversity “ought to be” today—to recognize that all neurodivergent people are whole people and that everyone has strengths and challenges in their lives.We addressed the need for community and finding other people who get it. As podcasters, we know that it’s critical to be brave enough to question and share, and we want to encourage others to do the same. The message that came through loud and clear is that we do have an international community, and we support each other. You are not alone!Links from this episodeOur Gifted Kids (website)Why You Need Dabrowski (Chris and Emma’s episode on Our Gifted Kids pod)NeuroTribes by Steve SilbermanGifted Research & Outreach (GRO)Emma’s videos about OE and their challengesJen Merrill’s book, If This is a Gift, Can I Send it Back?Jen’s blog Laughing at ChaosCheck out #gtchat on Twitter (shout out to Lisa Conrad, the #gtchat moderator)GTN Awareness Week with Marc Smolowitz This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 31, Chris and Emma talked with Celi Trépanier, author, blogger, and parent, about the gifted community and the challenges of raising gifted kids and being a gifted adult. Together, we talk about the importance of friendships, connections, and support within the gifted community.Celi was Chris’s first friend in the gifted world. Celi held space and supported Chris during those first years when they were studying the theory of positive disintegration and giftedness while trying to find a way forward in their work. Celi and Chris share their story and talk about the important role friendship plays in gifted journeys.We also addressed the disconnect between research and practice in gifted education, as well as the disconnect between teachers and parents. Misunderstandings about gifted children, the lack of awareness that this difference goes beyond an educational label, and the stereotypes about the gifted were all mentioned. It’s clear from our conversation that giftedness doesn’t always feel like a gift. We talked about bullying and its impact on children and the fact that there’s bullying in adult spaces as well. However, we also talked about the importance of holding space within the gifted community. How we can support each other and help each other through “the muck of giftedness.” It’s not easy for those of us who are sensitive to be vulnerable and share in online communities on social media, but we still find ways to be present for the people who need us. All three of us have provided mirrors to our audiences because we want to help others feel seen and understood. Links from this episodeCrushing Tall Poppies (Celi’s website)Educating Your Gifted Child (Celi’s book)Laughing at Chaos (Jen Merrill’s website)If This is a Gift, Can I Send it Back? (Jen’s book)You can read about Chris’s autoethnography here and hereParents of Gifted and Twice-Exceptional Kids (Facebook group)SENGGHF LearnersAlabama Association of Gifted ChildrenTall Poppy Syndrome (Wikipedia)Celi’s popular post that was mentioned: A Gifted Child Checklist for TeachersConnect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3Please share with others who would appreciate learning about Positive Disintegration. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 30, Chris and Emma were joined by Katy Higgins Lee, MFT, a therapist and clinical supervisor in private practice in Santa Rosa, California. She works with neurodivergent adults with a focus on giftedness and twice-exceptionality. This episode is our contribution to Neurodiversity Celebration Week.We learned about the terms neurodiversity and neurodivergence, and the appropriate application for individuals compared to groups. Katy talked about the way that neurodivergence can be either innate (e.g., ADHD, autism) or acquired (e.g., PTSD, traumatic brain injury).We asked Katy the question, Is giftedness a type of neurodivergence? We agreed with her that giftedness is more than an IQ score, and fits the definition of neurodivergence since this is an experience of reality that diverges from what can be considered typical. Asynchronous development was mentioned, which is a definition of giftedness from the Columbus Group that incorporates the overexcitabilities.Katy discussed being neurodiversity-affirming and non-pathologizing. We learned that we can view these differences as identities or neurotypes, rather than disorders or disadvantages.Neurodiversity-affirming means using identify-first language rather than person-first language. For instance, autistic person rather than person with autism. We also talked about not using functioning labels such as “high-functioning” vs “low-functioning” autism and instead considering differences in support needs.It’s also critical to be trauma-informed and LGBTQ+-affirming. Katy said it’s especially important to remember the need to be trans-affirming as part of a neurodiversity-affirmative practice because many neurodivergent people are also trans, nonbinary, or otherwise gender non-conforming.We discussed overexcitabilities being part of the gifted experience, and the autistic and ADHD experience, and how that wasn’t clear from Katy’s introduction to OEs in the gifted community. It’s time to change the narrative and help the gifted world catch up—OEs are a part of the neurodivergent experience beyond the connection with giftedness.The term giftedness is losing credibility in the neurodiversity community partly due to OEs not being seen as types of neurodivergence, which can hinder people on their journey of self-discovery. It’s not an either/or proposition of OE or ADHD (or autism). Missed identification of neurodivergence types in gifted individuals is a cause of trauma for many.We talked about the overlap between ADHD and autism, as well as the way that other differences seem closely connected such as giftedness, gender differences, Ehlers-Danos Syndrome, and OCD. We discussed how stereotypes about ADHD, autism, and giftedness, and even their names, have caused problems in understanding these experiences. Giftedness is a term with a lot of misconceptions, but it is an important difference to acknowledge and understand. Even though parents of gifted children are often gifted themselves, they don’t necessarily see it in themselves or recognize its impact on their lives.Links for this episodeKaty’s Tending Paths accounts on Facebook and Instagram.Katy’s websiteDr. Nick Walker’s websiteFollow us on social media:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 29, Chris and Emma discussed The Ugly Duckling, the classic fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen, from the perspectives of giftedness, neurodivergence, and positive disintegration. We discussed aspects of our personal journeys and the impact of discovering Dąbrowski’s theory, and how these relate back to themes in the tale.Some of the themes we cover include—the realization in our 40s that we’re happier than we ever expected to be, overcoming the feeling of brokenness, and the traumas that accumulate over a lifetime of being gifted and an outlier.We also discuss the experience of dynamisms, Dark Nights of the Soul, appreciating the process of positive disintegration, and learning to be grateful for certain kinds of suffering. We talk about growth not being automatic, but hard-won, and the work involved in inner transformation.The experience of discovering OEs—and the moment of self-recognition—is very important for many coming to terms with who they are. Emma talked about the three elements involved:* The initial discovery of OE* Understanding one’s own OE profile* Self-acceptanceWe’ve made it our mission to bring the theory and OEs to other people. We’re building community and offering the opportunity for connection to anyone who needs us. We also want to hang the ‘mirror’ of OE in as many places as possible, so people can experience the same magic of self-recognition the Ugly Duckling did!QuotesThe full quote Chris mentioned (~23:50) is: “Suffering, if we experience it correctly, makes us sensitive to the suffering of others, awakens in us a new awareness, and creates a breach in our excessively egocentric attitude toward the surrounding world.” (Dabrowski, Personality-Shaping through Positive Disintegration, pp. 30-31)Quotes from The Ugly Duckling:* “I never dreamed there could be so much happiness, when I was the ugly duckling.”* “He felt quite glad that he had come through so much trouble and misfortune, for now he had a fuller understanding of his own good fortune, and of beauty when he met with it.”* “Being born in a duck yard does not matter, if only you are hatched from a swan’s egg.”Links for this episodeThe Ugly Ducking (The original story)The Ugly Duckling: A Story of Giftedness and Disintegration (Emma’s blog post)Conversations on Gifted Trauma by InterGiftedChris’s “Quote Collages” are on the Dabrowski page. Here’s another one that was mentioned about Disintegration in Michael Piechowski’s work.Three elements of discovery in Emma’s videoEpisode 2: Overexcitabilities and PseudoscienceEpisode 14: Relationships and VulnerabilityDr. Maggie Brown (ResearchGate profile, or click here for her website)Integrating perspectives: View the tiger from multiple anglesFollow us on social media:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 28, Chris and Emma were joined by Kate Arms, JD, PCC, for a discussion on what positive disintegration looks like in organizations and workplaces. How are organizational dynamics similar to positive disintegration in individuals? Kate’s approach to her work is one where the business itself, or the “system,” is considered the coaching client, and she observes not only the individuals but also the interactions between them. She feels that dynamisms show up as much in the interactions, and leadership, as in the individuals. A business, start-up, or organization can move through the levels of development—from the first grumblings of discontent in the workforce to a place of shared accountability and vision—and can transform. They are also prone to their own three factors; the start-up dream of the founders, the external pressures (like customers and market forces), and the emerging “third factor” of a growing workforce culture and shared vision.Kate shared tips for employees and employers for dealing with positive disintegration. We discussed the difficulty of being overexcitable and working in organizations where the individual is forced to conform and toe the line. We also talked about positive maladjustment, and the good that can come when a business or non-profit tackles social issues and works to create change in the world. Links from this episodeSignal Fire Coaching (Kate’s website)Neurodiversity Coaching AcademyDr. Eric Vorm’s presentation from the 2022 Dabrowski CongressEpisode 6 on Autopsychotherapy and Self-Leadership Connect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3Please share with others who would appreciate learning about Positive Disintegration. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 27, Chris and Emma were joined by Dr. Tracy Winter, an ICF-credentialed coach with a PhD in Human Development. In her coaching practice, she works with neurodivergent adults and specializes in the gifted / 2e population. We talked about Tracy’s dissertation research on gifted adults “being seen,” where most of her participants fell into two groups: they were not seen as gifted, or they were mis-seen in a way that was not aligned with their self-perceptions. We discuss the importance of “mirroring”—finding yourself reflected in others—and the loneliness that can happen when we are not seen for our authentic selves, even when we have a support network around us. Tracy holds up a “flat mirror” with clients to help them see themselves accurately, and we talk about how devastating it feels when neurodivergent and gifted people only see ourselves in a distorted “funhouse mirror” if they cannot find people like themselves to connect with.Tracy talks to us about overexcitability in neurodivergent clients, and what it’s like to work with the Theory of Positive Disintegration in her practice. She shares other developmental models she finds helpful, including Kegan’s Subject-Object Theory of Development and Cook-Greuter's Constructive Developmental Theory in her work, along with classic theorists such as Erikson. We talk about the difference between a coach and a therapist, what you can expect from an ICF-certified coach, and the importance of an authentic relationships in both clinical work and coaching. We also discuss the activation of dynamisms in clients, and the benefits and pitfalls of nudging someone into disintegration, and the importance of “meeting people where they are” when talking about experiencing a disintegration—whether that be with a client or with a loved one in a relationship.Links from this episode:Nerd Coach (Tracy’s Website)Neurodiversity Coaching Academy Download Tracy’s dissertation from the Media tab of her websiteTracy on LinkedInTracy’s episode on Unleash MondayEmma’s Triangle of Loneliness videoChris’s paper on the Inner Experience of Giftedness [PDF download]SENGConnect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3Please share with others who would appreciate learning about Positive Disintegration. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 26, we continued the conversation with Nth Bar-Fields and Joi Lin in the second half of our two-part series about their experiences as profoundly gifted individuals.In Part 2, we talked about health and mental health issues, including experiences with substances and addiction. We discussed how being neurodivergent can also lead to diversity in the realm of physical health and how medical providers may not be equipped to deal with our needs.We mentioned the overexcitabilities and how they manifest in our lives. We acknowledged that these intense experiences and curiosity might lead us to want to explore things in both the inner and outer worlds.We also talked about saving the world. How we can do our own small part locally, playing to our strengths, and the value of collaborating with other gifted people to make a real difference within our communities and globally. Links from this episodeElysian TrustChris’s episode with Jen Harvey Sallin on Conversations on Gifted Trauma was mentioned because that episode was recorded the morning of the episodes with Nth and Joi. Interested in joining Elysian Trust? The email address is info@elysiantrust.org Click here to find out more about the six Elysian Trust member societies.Connect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3Please share with others who would appreciate learning about Positive Disintegration. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 25, Chris and Emma were joined by Nth Bar-Fields and Joi Lin. This fascinating and fun discussion was too long for one episode, so we’ve split it into two for your listening enjoyment!Nth is a co-founder of Elysian Trust, and Joi is a doctoral student in Gifted Education Leadership at the University of Denver. Chris joined Nth and Joi in March 2022 for a panel session called Experiences Being Highly and Profoundly Gifted at the DU Gifted Education Policy Symposium and Conference. This episode is a product of that collaboration, and covers some of the same ground.We talked about what it means to be profoundly gifted (PG), which we defined as the 99.9th percentile of intelligence. Joi and Nth introduced themselves and shared their PG journeys, and talked about the challenges involved in this difference. We also discussed breaking socialization and transcending boundaries as outliers, including what that means for gender identity and gender differences. Part one concludes with a discussion of the various types of intuition. We discuss how intuitive thinking applies to being gifted and how this type of thinking can lead to challenges and impostor syndrome.Make sure you join us again for part two of this conversation!Links for this episodeElysian TrustExperiences Being HG/PG Panel at DU’s 2022 GEPSCMensaDavidson InstituteConnect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3Please share with others who would appreciate learning about Positive Disintegration. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

Content warning: This episode includes sensitive topics such as depression, intrusive mental imagery, and suicidal ideation. Please also note that our guest was known as Lance at the time of recording, but later changed their name to Seph.In episode 24, Chris and Emma were joined by Seph Johnson (recorded as Lance), a college student from Colorado with a deep interest in Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration. Chris first met Seph in 2019, and their conversations over the years were rich with insight, humor, and a shared passion for the inner life.We explored the challenges of imaginational overexcitability, including the experience of intrusive thoughts and vivid mental imagery. Seph spoke candidly about living with depression and intense emotional fluctuations, and the process of questioning whether these patterns reflected bipolar disorder. They also described the gifts of imagination—how it can be harnessed for mental rehearsal, creativity, and personal growth.Seph shared how discovering the theory helped them engage in intentional self-development through autopsychotherapy and self-education. Their reflections on the journey toward authenticity—peeling back layers, facing oneself honestly, and embracing difference—were both moving and wise.They also spoke about growing up in a rural area while coming to terms with being gay, and the loneliness and courage that accompanied that realization. Seph offered heartfelt advice for other young people navigating similar paths: seek true peers, honor your inner world, and trust that your differences are meaningful.Update: We are devastated to share that Seph passed away on March 29, 2025. They were a remarkable soul whose presence touched many. [Click here to read their obituary.]Connect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3Please share with others who would appreciate learning about Positive Disintegration. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe