Positive Disintegration

In episode 42, Chris and Emma continued the conversation with Catherine Zakoian, MA, NCC, LPC, a counselor and consultant from Boulder, Colorado, and author of Raising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential. We started the discussion by asking Catherine to talk about how the dynamisms show up in her clinical practice with gifted children. She shared insights from asking kids to use symbols to identify the different parts of themselves and helping them work through and resolve inner conflicts. Catherine also discussed the tension children can experience about the world around them, reconciling their desire to do good in the world while also feeling repulsed by the state of it. Self-reflection and goal-setting can be beneficial for children. It provides them with an opportunity to think about their ideal self and who they want to be. By guiding children through the reflective process, they can develop an emerging personality ideal and gain the practice of self-reflection. We discussed the delicate work of acknowledging a person's past experiences while helping them navigate their identity. We emphasized the importance of not dismissing or invalidating someone's past but rather acknowledging and validating those experiences. Catherine brought up the fact that Chris has been learning Polish, and Chris shared a little about how and why that happened. Names that came up in this episode included Immanuel Kant, Joseph Chilton Pearce, and Peace Pilgrim. Note that we recorded this episode before Frank Falk passed away in April, which is why we talked about him as we did toward the end of the episode. The Fourth Factor was mentioned, a term that comes from Elizabeth Mika, but we didn’t go into it in depth. Listen to Episode 17 with Elizabeth for more. Links from this episodeRaising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential by Catherine ZakoianLumineux Institute (Catherine’s website)Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] In part three, Chris reflects on their journey of self-discovery through the lens of Dąbrowski’s theory and autoethnography. They recount how discovering autoethnography provided them with a framework to understand their life experiences, including traumas and their father’s alcoholism. This revelation came during their doctoral studies in psychology, where they also learned about being twice-exceptional (gifted and disabled), challenging their previous beliefs.Chris discusses their struggles with mental health and addiction, initially seeking understanding through psychiatry and later questioning these diagnoses through the lens of autoethnography and Dąbrowski’s theory. They detail their process of self-examination, which included revisiting personal journals, medical records, and conducting interviews with people from their past. This introspection led to a reevaluation of their mental health diagnoses and a decision to stop taking psychiatric medications.Their exploration of Dąbrowski’s theory, particularly through interactions with Michael Piechowski and Linda Silverman, helped them reframe their understanding of their mental health and intellectual giftedness. This new perspective enabled them to see their intense experiences not as symptoms of illness but as strengths. Chris emphasizes the transformative power of self-understanding and acceptance, culminating in a newfound sense of liberation and purpose to share their insights with others. They conclude by encouraging others on similar paths to be patient and kind to themselves in their journey of self-discovery and healing. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 41, Chris and Emma talked with Catherine Zakoian, MA, NCC, LPC, a counselor and educational consultant from Boulder, Colorado. Catherine is also the author of Raising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential.We discussed emotional tension and the issue of confronting our individual shadows, as well as the shadow in groups, such as families and communities. Catherine shared valuable insights on navigating this type of inner work, which can be helpful for individuals and clinicians on their personal growth journeys.Catherine shared her experiences of applying Dabrowski’s theory in her clinical practice, offering practical guidance for therapists and clients alike. Whether you're just starting to study the theory or working on yourself, you'll find plenty of worthwhile nuggets in this conversation.We talk about Catherine's expertise, which extends to educational consulting, where she provides guidance to schools and organizations serving gifted and twice-exceptional (2e) populations. She also shared some of her insights from working with gifted children and their families, offering practical advice for parents and educators.Catherine and Chris know each other thanks to participating in the Dabrowski Study Group that was recently mentioned in one of our posts on Substack.Links from this episodeRaising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential by Catherine ZakoianWe discussed past Dąbrowski Congresses. Consider joining us at the 2024 Dąbrowski Congress!Learn more about the Dabrowski Study Group in Chris’s post, The Positive Disintegration Study Group.Episode 28 with Kate Arms was mentioned.Catherine mentioned Michael M. Piechowski’s 1975 monograph (PDF download).Chris mentioned the Parents of Gifted and Twice-Exceptional Kids Facebook group.Connect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] This is part two of Chris's personal journey of overcoming self-stigma. Chris narrates their struggle with self-stigma and mental health, beginning with feeling like a failure post-high school despite being identified as gifted. Seeking understanding in psychiatry led to a deeper sense of disempowerment and self-stigma, which they define as internalizing societal prejudices, resulting in low self-esteem and poor self-efficacy.Hospitalization at 21 intensified these feelings, even as they were acknowledged for their giftedness. Chris grappled with internalized ableism, feeling broken due to their unique mental processes and an unrelenting pursuit of normalcy.Their journey towards reclaiming self-efficacy was gradual, marked by challenges in fitting in at Kansas State University at 25 and a deeper understanding of their capabilities. A significant turning point came when they moved to California, where steps towards a drug-free life, education, and meaningful employment helped rebuild their self-esteem. Their relationship with Jason also played a crucial role in their recovery.Despite ongoing self-perception as mentally ill, the author achieved academic success, culminating in a degree in social work. Part 3 will include discovering Dąbrowski’s theory, stopping medication, rethinking and rewriting the past, and finding self-acceptance. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 40, Chris and Emma shared that they now offer a newsletter and paid subscriptions on Substack. Chris has decided to hold off on producing a book this year and instead is sharing writing for the public directly while working on other projects. Making the theory more accessible is our goal, and this is one way to get it done. Although Chris feels called to this work, the reality is that they are currently working primarily for donations. We discussed how values need to be weighed and balanced. For instance, the desire to make information about the theory as accessible as possible while also ensuring this content creation is sustainable. Considerations like authenticity in content, valuing yourself and your work, and making tough choices all connect with the theory.It has taken a lot of time, contemplation, and effort to reach a place where we can offer a subscription plan, and we’re grateful to everyone who has already signed up. A paid subscription costs $60 annually or $6 monthly USD. The cost to become a Founding Member is $100 per year. If an ongoing subscription isn’t your thing, you can also make one-off (tax-deductible!) donations to the Dabrowski Center or pick up some cool Positive Disintegration merch for your money.Here are the links to our first free newsletter posts:Welcome to Positive Disintegration, the Newsletter!Two Years of Friendship and Podcast Co-HostingOvercoming the Stigma of Mental Illness, Part 1Interesting Quotes, Volume 1Note that an audio recording is available for each written post for accessibility. We’re still working on transcripts for the podcast episodes, but you can find the ones we’ve completed on the Dabrowski Center website.Thank you so much for supporting our work. We appreciate you!Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] This is part one of Chris's personal journey of self-discovery and overcoming self-stigma. Growing up, they always felt out of sync with others, perceiving themselves as an outlier due to their intellectual giftedness and neurodivergence. They struggled with being different, leading to a belief in their own mental illness during adolescence. By 17, they had accepted this perceived mental illness, experiencing mood swings and depression, which they later saw as a mood disorder. This belief was reinforced by a bipolar disorder diagnosis at 19 and subsequent medication treatments.Chris published their first book at 20 but couldn't enjoy it due to their mental health struggles. They experienced suicidal tendencies, leading to multiple hospitalizations and diagnoses over the years. Despite these challenges, they continued writing, a constant in their life.The post also touches on Chris's experiences with disability benefits, their struggle with self-stigma, and the impact of various treatments and medications on their life. They discuss their journey through higher education, which was disrupted by their mental health issues, and their time at Menninger Clinic. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 39, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Joey Lawrence, a PDA autistic person, clinical psychologist, and neurodiversity advocate living and working in Australia. In this episode, we discussed neurodivergent lived experiences and how we think about and talk about these aspects of our lives with partners, clients, and at the societal level. The importance of mutual understanding was a part of this discussion, and how difficult it can be to attain.Joey shared her experiences from multiple viewpoints since she is a gifted, autistic PDAer who also is a clinician working in practice with neurodivergent clients. She discussed PDA as the persistent drive for autonomy and explained that anything that impinges on autonomy—whether that impingement is perceived or actual—causes a dysregulating response. We learned that PDA people don’t respond well to traditional approaches.We discussed relationships and the challenges of balancing our passions and interests with partners who may not operate from the same level of intensity. And we also addressed the struggle of talking about giftedness in neurodiversity spaces where it is often dismissed or seen as elitist, ableist, or otherwise problematic. Not to mention that Joey and Emma live in Australia, where they feel there is a sense of erasure around giftedness.Chris talked about the desire to be “normal” and how difficult it can feel to accept ourselves and be authentic when others perceive us as too intense. Joey described the experience of unmasking and discovering that being herself sometimes derailed relationships.We talked about Joey’s work as a psychologist using TPD in practice in Australia. Chris mentioned the struggle of reaching the people who need help when we are so limited due to licensure and regulations. We agreed that we need a different kind of field since what we’re talking about is guiding people through the process of positive disintegration. We need to revolutionize the mental health system because people who need help are so frequently traumatized by their experiences in the current system.While wrapping up this episode, Joey said that Dąbrowski was creating a system dynamics theory before there was system dynamics, which resonated. She said we need to go through positive disintegration at the societal level, and this is the neurodiversity movement. We cause harm when viewing distressing human experiences as pathology. We have to shift our way of thinking, not only the content of our thoughts.Resources from this episodeJoey shares her lived experience on TikTok, and you can also find her on Instagram.Joey is the Director of Neudle PsychologyThe paper Chris and Joey mentioned at the beginning of the episode [PDF]Conversations on Gifted Trauma podcastEmma’s video on Disintegrating in a RelationshipAre you a Thought Dancer? blogEmbracing Intensity podcastIf This is a Gift, Can I Send it Back? by Jen MerrillAutistic Researchers Researching Autism (Facebook group)Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

We’ve added Quick Bites to our podcast offerings to allow Chris and Emma the opportunity to discuss topics of interest with brevity. In episode 38, the first Quick Bite episode, they tackled the issue of regret. How do we confront past decisions that haunt us? How can we use the feeling of regret as an opportunity to move forward and transform ourselves?First, we talked about the evolution of the language we use based on the realization that our words were unkind or unacceptable. And we explored navigating our digital footprint through the lens of regret, such as our old social media posts and other things we’ve said that remain online as testaments to our former selves.We discussed learning to accept feedback and correction from a gratitude perspective. Learning that we’ve done something wrong gives us a chance to do better. We all make mistakes and can use our errors as opportunities for growth and personal evolution.We addressed dealing with the emotional consequences of relationship issues and conflicts. When people are no longer in our lives, and we can’t get closure, we can still find peace and forgive ourselves. We can transform guilt and regret into action. And we can practice self-compassion and kindness toward ourselves.For more on ableist language in everyday speech: Why You Need to Stop Using these Words and Phrases by Rakshitha Arni Ravishankar.Chris mentioned doing an autoethnography, and you can read more about that project in a paper called The Primary Importance of the Inner Experience of Giftedness [PDF].There was a shout-out to Dan Tichenor and his message, “Be kind to yourself.” Episode 14 with Michele Kane on Relationships and Vulnerability was mentioned.Let us know if you have a topic to suggest for a future Quick Bite episode via email at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com.Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 37, Chris and Emma talked with Marni Kammersell, a 2e adult, doctoral student at Bridges Graduate School, and parent of three 2e children in Colorado. We started this episode by discussing our concerns about how overexcitabilities are sometimes interpreted in the gifted community. Parents of gifted and 2e children sometimes discover the OEs and stop there without exploring the types of neurodivergence that may be present in their children. We talked about the reality that it’s possible to have a healthy neurodivergent identity without pathologizing oneself. Marni shared experiences from her journey as a 2e parent of 2e kids who have never attended formal schooling. She broached the idea that people should get to decide for themselves which words apply to their experiences and which communities they choose to associate with. Emma had freshly read Dąbrowski’s book Psychoneurosis is Not an Illness when we recorded this episode and talked about his pioneering work as a clinician who was neurodiversity-affirming before that term existed. In his work, there is a clear message that being different doesn’t mean you’re defective. We learned about self-directed education, what that means, and how at its core, it is based on trusting children—and trusting all humans because, ideally, we should all become self-directed learners by the time formal schooling ends. Self-directed education and unschooling are grounded in children’s rights and youth liberation, while traditional education operates top-down with a power over dynamic rather than power with. Marni also talked about the difference between homeschooling and unschooling. At the end of our discussion, we also discussed self-directed education in adulthood. The Positive Disintegration Study Group was mentioned more than once in this episode. If you’re interested in joining the group, which meets monthly on Zoom, you can write to Chris at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com. The group requires a six-month commitment and a small monthly fee. Links from this episodeNurturing Neurodiversity (Marni’s website)Alliance for Self-Directed EducationUnschooling Every Family (Facebook group)Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn (Amazon)Free to Learn by Peter Gray (publisher site)Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

*Note: Chris will not be returning to Yunasa. In episode 36, Chris and Emma discussed Yunasa, a camp for gifted and twice-exceptional children offered by the Institute for Educational Advancement. Working at Yunasa and spending time with everyone involved is a highlight of Chris’s year.Chris has worked at Yunasa West four times since 2019 and shared what it’s been like to speak with the campers about Dąbrowski’s theory and overexcitability. Chris talked about workshops with the campers, and the challenge of discussing positive disintegration without excessive jargon. We discussed how the campers relate to the theory, and what it tells us about the lived experience of youth who can so readily recognize themselves in the dynamisms.We also talked about how important it is to create safe spaces, provide mirroring and mentoring, and plant mental “seeds,” which may come to fruition later in life. This includes ideas about the importance of acceptance, how emotional states can be managed, and seeing multiple generations of adults support each other in their daily lives.Chris mentioned psychosynthesis, which is a well-developed approach to personal growth created by Dr. Roberto Assagioli. Chris has been using psychosynthesis techniques for the past several years and enjoys the opportunity to share guided imagery exercises with campers at Yunasa in the role of Facilitator.Links from this episodeYunasa (IEA website)About Yunasa (IEA website)For more on the psychosynthesis exercises, read What We May Be by Piero Ferrucci (Amazon)Previous episodes we mentioned:Ep. 8. Surviving DisintegrationEp. 16. Overexcitability and Openness to Experience with Shelagh GallagherEp. 19. The Challenge of Levels with Stephanie TolanEp. 24. Through the Lens of Youth with Lance JohnsonEp. 35 Dąbrowski's Theory in Practice with Patty Gatto-WaldenThere was also a shout-out to Katy Higgins Lee from episode 30, Celebrating Neurodiversity, Overexcitabilities, and Giftedness.Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe