Positive Disintegration

In episode 41, Chris and Emma talked with Catherine Zakoian, MA, NCC, LPC, a counselor and educational consultant from Boulder, Colorado. Catherine is also the author of Raising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential.We discussed emotional tension and the issue of confronting our individual shadows, as well as the shadow in groups, such as families and communities. Catherine shared valuable insights on navigating this type of inner work, which can be helpful for individuals and clinicians on their personal growth journeys.Catherine shared her experiences of applying Dabrowski’s theory in her clinical practice, offering practical guidance for therapists and clients alike. Whether you're just starting to study the theory or working on yourself, you'll find plenty of worthwhile nuggets in this conversation.We talk about Catherine's expertise, which extends to educational consulting, where she provides guidance to schools and organizations serving gifted and twice-exceptional (2e) populations. She also shared some of her insights from working with gifted children and their families, offering practical advice for parents and educators.Catherine and Chris know each other thanks to participating in the Dabrowski Study Group that was recently mentioned in one of our posts on Substack.Links from this episodeRaising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential by Catherine ZakoianWe discussed past Dąbrowski Congresses. Consider joining us at the 2024 Dąbrowski Congress!Learn more about the Dabrowski Study Group in Chris’s post, The Positive Disintegration Study Group.Episode 28 with Kate Arms was mentioned.Catherine mentioned Michael M. Piechowski’s 1975 monograph (PDF download).Chris mentioned the Parents of Gifted and Twice-Exceptional Kids Facebook group.Connect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] This is part two of Chris's personal journey of overcoming self-stigma. Chris narrates their struggle with self-stigma and mental health, beginning with feeling like a failure post-high school despite being identified as gifted. Seeking understanding in psychiatry led to a deeper sense of disempowerment and self-stigma, which they define as internalizing societal prejudices, resulting in low self-esteem and poor self-efficacy.Hospitalization at 21 intensified these feelings, even as they were acknowledged for their giftedness. Chris grappled with internalized ableism, feeling broken due to their unique mental processes and an unrelenting pursuit of normalcy.Their journey towards reclaiming self-efficacy was gradual, marked by challenges in fitting in at Kansas State University at 25 and a deeper understanding of their capabilities. A significant turning point came when they moved to California, where steps towards a drug-free life, education, and meaningful employment helped rebuild their self-esteem. Their relationship with Jason also played a crucial role in their recovery.Despite ongoing self-perception as mentally ill, the author achieved academic success, culminating in a degree in social work. Part 3 will include discovering Dąbrowski’s theory, stopping medication, rethinking and rewriting the past, and finding self-acceptance. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 40, Chris and Emma shared that they now offer a newsletter and paid subscriptions on Substack. Chris has decided to hold off on producing a book this year and instead is sharing writing for the public directly while working on other projects. Making the theory more accessible is our goal, and this is one way to get it done. Although Chris feels called to this work, the reality is that they are currently working primarily for donations. We discussed how values need to be weighed and balanced. For instance, the desire to make information about the theory as accessible as possible while also ensuring this content creation is sustainable. Considerations like authenticity in content, valuing yourself and your work, and making tough choices all connect with the theory.It has taken a lot of time, contemplation, and effort to reach a place where we can offer a subscription plan, and we’re grateful to everyone who has already signed up. A paid subscription costs $60 annually or $6 monthly USD. The cost to become a Founding Member is $100 per year. If an ongoing subscription isn’t your thing, you can also make one-off (tax-deductible!) donations to the Dabrowski Center or pick up some cool Positive Disintegration merch for your money.Here are the links to our first free newsletter posts:Welcome to Positive Disintegration, the Newsletter!Two Years of Friendship and Podcast Co-HostingOvercoming the Stigma of Mental Illness, Part 1Interesting Quotes, Volume 1Note that an audio recording is available for each written post for accessibility. We’re still working on transcripts for the podcast episodes, but you can find the ones we’ve completed on the Dabrowski Center website.Thank you so much for supporting our work. We appreciate you!Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] This is part one of Chris's personal journey of self-discovery and overcoming self-stigma. Growing up, they always felt out of sync with others, perceiving themselves as an outlier due to their intellectual giftedness and neurodivergence. They struggled with being different, leading to a belief in their own mental illness during adolescence. By 17, they had accepted this perceived mental illness, experiencing mood swings and depression, which they later saw as a mood disorder. This belief was reinforced by a bipolar disorder diagnosis at 19 and subsequent medication treatments.Chris published their first book at 20 but couldn't enjoy it due to their mental health struggles. They experienced suicidal tendencies, leading to multiple hospitalizations and diagnoses over the years. Despite these challenges, they continued writing, a constant in their life.The post also touches on Chris's experiences with disability benefits, their struggle with self-stigma, and the impact of various treatments and medications on their life. They discuss their journey through higher education, which was disrupted by their mental health issues, and their time at Menninger Clinic. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 39, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Joey Lawrence, a PDA autistic person, clinical psychologist, and neurodiversity advocate living and working in Australia. In this episode, we discussed neurodivergent lived experiences and how we think about and talk about these aspects of our lives with partners, clients, and at the societal level. The importance of mutual understanding was a part of this discussion, and how difficult it can be to attain.Joey shared her experiences from multiple viewpoints since she is a gifted, autistic PDAer who also is a clinician working in practice with neurodivergent clients. She discussed PDA as the persistent drive for autonomy and explained that anything that impinges on autonomy—whether that impingement is perceived or actual—causes a dysregulating response. We learned that PDA people don’t respond well to traditional approaches.We discussed relationships and the challenges of balancing our passions and interests with partners who may not operate from the same level of intensity. And we also addressed the struggle of talking about giftedness in neurodiversity spaces where it is often dismissed or seen as elitist, ableist, or otherwise problematic. Not to mention that Joey and Emma live in Australia, where they feel there is a sense of erasure around giftedness.Chris talked about the desire to be “normal” and how difficult it can feel to accept ourselves and be authentic when others perceive us as too intense. Joey described the experience of unmasking and discovering that being herself sometimes derailed relationships.We talked about Joey’s work as a psychologist using TPD in practice in Australia. Chris mentioned the struggle of reaching the people who need help when we are so limited due to licensure and regulations. We agreed that we need a different kind of field since what we’re talking about is guiding people through the process of positive disintegration. We need to revolutionize the mental health system because people who need help are so frequently traumatized by their experiences in the current system.While wrapping up this episode, Joey said that Dąbrowski was creating a system dynamics theory before there was system dynamics, which resonated. She said we need to go through positive disintegration at the societal level, and this is the neurodiversity movement. We cause harm when viewing distressing human experiences as pathology. We have to shift our way of thinking, not only the content of our thoughts.Resources from this episodeJoey shares her lived experience on TikTok, and you can also find her on Instagram.Joey is the Director of Neudle PsychologyThe paper Chris and Joey mentioned at the beginning of the episode [PDF]Conversations on Gifted Trauma podcastEmma’s video on Disintegrating in a RelationshipAre you a Thought Dancer? blogEmbracing Intensity podcastIf This is a Gift, Can I Send it Back? by Jen MerrillAutistic Researchers Researching Autism (Facebook group)Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

We’ve added Quick Bites to our podcast offerings to allow Chris and Emma the opportunity to discuss topics of interest with brevity. In episode 38, the first Quick Bite episode, they tackled the issue of regret. How do we confront past decisions that haunt us? How can we use the feeling of regret as an opportunity to move forward and transform ourselves?First, we talked about the evolution of the language we use based on the realization that our words were unkind or unacceptable. And we explored navigating our digital footprint through the lens of regret, such as our old social media posts and other things we’ve said that remain online as testaments to our former selves.We discussed learning to accept feedback and correction from a gratitude perspective. Learning that we’ve done something wrong gives us a chance to do better. We all make mistakes and can use our errors as opportunities for growth and personal evolution.We addressed dealing with the emotional consequences of relationship issues and conflicts. When people are no longer in our lives, and we can’t get closure, we can still find peace and forgive ourselves. We can transform guilt and regret into action. And we can practice self-compassion and kindness toward ourselves.For more on ableist language in everyday speech: Why You Need to Stop Using these Words and Phrases by Rakshitha Arni Ravishankar.Chris mentioned doing an autoethnography, and you can read more about that project in a paper called The Primary Importance of the Inner Experience of Giftedness [PDF].There was a shout-out to Dan Tichenor and his message, “Be kind to yourself.” Episode 14 with Michele Kane on Relationships and Vulnerability was mentioned.Let us know if you have a topic to suggest for a future Quick Bite episode via email at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com.Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 37, Chris and Emma talked with Marni Kammersell, a 2e adult, doctoral student at Bridges Graduate School, and parent of three 2e children in Colorado. We started this episode by discussing our concerns about how overexcitabilities are sometimes interpreted in the gifted community. Parents of gifted and 2e children sometimes discover the OEs and stop there without exploring the types of neurodivergence that may be present in their children. We talked about the reality that it’s possible to have a healthy neurodivergent identity without pathologizing oneself. Marni shared experiences from her journey as a 2e parent of 2e kids who have never attended formal schooling. She broached the idea that people should get to decide for themselves which words apply to their experiences and which communities they choose to associate with. Emma had freshly read Dąbrowski’s book Psychoneurosis is Not an Illness when we recorded this episode and talked about his pioneering work as a clinician who was neurodiversity-affirming before that term existed. In his work, there is a clear message that being different doesn’t mean you’re defective. We learned about self-directed education, what that means, and how at its core, it is based on trusting children—and trusting all humans because, ideally, we should all become self-directed learners by the time formal schooling ends. Self-directed education and unschooling are grounded in children’s rights and youth liberation, while traditional education operates top-down with a power over dynamic rather than power with. Marni also talked about the difference between homeschooling and unschooling. At the end of our discussion, we also discussed self-directed education in adulthood. The Positive Disintegration Study Group was mentioned more than once in this episode. If you’re interested in joining the group, which meets monthly on Zoom, you can write to Chris at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com. The group requires a six-month commitment and a small monthly fee. Links from this episodeNurturing Neurodiversity (Marni’s website)Alliance for Self-Directed EducationUnschooling Every Family (Facebook group)Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn (Amazon)Free to Learn by Peter Gray (publisher site)Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

*Note: Chris will not be returning to Yunasa. In episode 36, Chris and Emma discussed Yunasa, a camp for gifted and twice-exceptional children offered by the Institute for Educational Advancement. Working at Yunasa and spending time with everyone involved is a highlight of Chris’s year.Chris has worked at Yunasa West four times since 2019 and shared what it’s been like to speak with the campers about Dąbrowski’s theory and overexcitability. Chris talked about workshops with the campers, and the challenge of discussing positive disintegration without excessive jargon. We discussed how the campers relate to the theory, and what it tells us about the lived experience of youth who can so readily recognize themselves in the dynamisms.We also talked about how important it is to create safe spaces, provide mirroring and mentoring, and plant mental “seeds,” which may come to fruition later in life. This includes ideas about the importance of acceptance, how emotional states can be managed, and seeing multiple generations of adults support each other in their daily lives.Chris mentioned psychosynthesis, which is a well-developed approach to personal growth created by Dr. Roberto Assagioli. Chris has been using psychosynthesis techniques for the past several years and enjoys the opportunity to share guided imagery exercises with campers at Yunasa in the role of Facilitator.Links from this episodeYunasa (IEA website)About Yunasa (IEA website)For more on the psychosynthesis exercises, read What We May Be by Piero Ferrucci (Amazon)Previous episodes we mentioned:Ep. 8. Surviving DisintegrationEp. 16. Overexcitability and Openness to Experience with Shelagh GallagherEp. 19. The Challenge of Levels with Stephanie TolanEp. 24. Through the Lens of Youth with Lance JohnsonEp. 35 Dąbrowski's Theory in Practice with Patty Gatto-WaldenThere was also a shout-out to Katy Higgins Lee from episode 30, Celebrating Neurodiversity, Overexcitabilities, and Giftedness.Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center. You can find our merch here on Bonfire.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 35, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Patricia Gatto-Walden, an American licensed psychologist with offices in Colorado and Florida. Patty applies the theory of positive disintegration in her practice with the highly and profoundly gifted.Patty studied with Dr. Michael M. Piechowski as a graduate student when he taught at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign in the late 1970s, and he introduced her to the work of Dąbrowski and Maslow. Years later, they reconnected, became close friends, and worked together as Senior Fellows to help create Yunasa, a camp for highly gifted children run by the Institute for Educational Advancement.We learned about Patty’s early work with the profoundly gifted in her role as the Director of Guidance and Counseling at University High School at the University of Illinois. She described falling in love with that population, and she’s worked with PG individuals of all ages ever since. She talked with us about her holistic approach to the gifted, which is the basis of her book, Embracing the Whole Gifted Self. Patty talked with us about the necessity of honoring all five domains of the self: intellectual, emotional, physical, spiritual, and social. Patty shared the importance of seeing gifted individuals as whole people and more than their minds.How can therapists of the gifted serve this population well? Patty shared several ideas on this topic from her own experience. Understanding one’s own levels of giftedness and empathy is critical when working with clients. We learned some of the essentials for clinicians and how they can prepare themselves to be present and grounded in their work.In the final part of our discussion, Patty talked about the life journey inward toward the Golden Core, or our inner guidance system. Discovering our meaning and purpose in life and facing ourselves courageously are parts of this journey.Links from this episode:Patricia Gatto-Walden, Ph.D. (Patty’s website)Embracing the Whole Gifted Self (Patty’s book)Yunasa (IEA website)Piechowski archive (Dąbrowski Center website)Social links and other info:Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookJoin Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookPlease, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!Thank you for listening to Positive Disintegration. Please share! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

**Content warning**: Please be aware that this episode contains sensitive topics such as addiction, death, suicide, and trauma. In episode 34, Chris and Emma talked about mental health. The episode is a part of SENG’s outreach efforts for Mental Health Awareness Month. We discussed the theory of positive disintegration as an invaluable tool for reframing our personal beliefs. How can big emotions be helpful in your development and not a sign of mental illness? We talk about our experiences with difficult emotions and tough times, and how the theory of positive disintegration offered us a new way to see ourselves as “not broken.” We also discuss how Dąbrowski’s invaluable work is contrary to what we see on mental health websites—and how the theory’s absence (and the lack of information about neurodiversity) in mental health spaces could be robbing people of essential tools to help themselves. We’re left with the ultimate question of how we can make positive disintegration more visible in mental health spaces, where it can be of real benefit.Also, in this episode, Chris shared about the loss of her friend and mentor, Dr. Frank Falk, who was our guest in episode five. Frank was a social psychologist and statistician who worked closely with Chris for the past several years as they studied Dąbrowski’s theory together in depth.Frank will be deeply missed, and we dedicate this episode to his memory.Click here to read the transcript for this episode.Links from this episode:SENG website (Supporting the Emotional Needs of the Gifted) Obituary for R. Frank Falk, Ph.D.Episode 5: Researching Overexcitability with Frank FalkThe Origins and Conceptual Evolution of Overexcitability by Wells & Falk (ResearchGate)Advanced Development Journal (via GDC website)The Primary Importance of the Inner Experience of Giftedness by Chris Wells (ResearchGate)Stories Lived. Stories Told. Podcast with Abbie VanMeter Resources from the Dabrowski CenterPeace Pilgrim’s book can be acquired free of chargeConnect with us!Positive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3Please share with others who would appreciate learning about Positive Disintegration. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe