Positive Disintegration

In episode 50, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Deborah Ruf, author of the award-winning book 5 Levels of Gifted. In 2023, she released a follow-up book called The 5 Levels of Gifted Children Grown Up: What They Tell Us. Our conversation highlights her expertise in studying giftedness and personality across the lifespan.We started the episode by asking Deborah to share her journey, and learned how she was first introduced to Dąbrowski’s theory in the early 1990s. Her dissertation study included the theory of positive disintegration, which she has worked with for many years. We discussed how she incorporated the theory into her work while exploring the complexities of giftedness, including its intersection with personality types and life circumstances. Our personalities have a profound impact on our relationships with others as well as with our own self-understanding. Chris shared a few quotes from The 5 Levels of Gifted Children Grown Up during our discussion, including this one about the importance of the environment on development:“It is not the high IQ or intellectual level that causes personal problems for many of our most intellectually gifted people. It is the ongoing presence of a poor environmental “fit” during their childhood. The better the fit, the better the social, emotional, and any other kind of well-being outcome measure, they will have.” (Ruf, 2023)Overall, this episode underscores the multifaceted nature of intelligence and personality, shaping our interactions, self-perception, and adaptation to various environments. Embracing and understanding ourselves can lead to personal growth and improved relationships with others. We highlight the importance of adopting multiple lenses and frameworks to reach a fuller understanding. As complex individuals with diverse backgrounds, strengths, and environments, we require various perspectives to deepen our understanding, heal from past experiences, and develop.Deborah emphasized that personality tests are not fixed and can change as we evolve. Personality tests offer insights into our current state, and by taking them multiple times, we can observe our growth and understand how different factors and periods in our lives impact our moods and responses. Highlights00:02:30 - Dr. Ruf's Journey to Dabrowski's Theory00:05:42 - Personal Growth and Weaving Theories00:08:29 - The Challenges of Funding Research00:13:45 - Personality Matters00:19:55 - An Example of Self-Understanding00:23:20 - The Need for Multiple Perspectives 00:26:26 - Impact of Personality on Life Choices00:32:41 - Importance of Environmental Fit for Gifted Individuals00:34:48 - Round Pegs in Square Holes00:39:25 - Environmental Fit Issues Continue in Adulthood00:42:15 - Transcending Psychological Type00:43:57 - The Intersection of Giftedness and Personality00:48:17 - Levels of Giftedness 00:56:45 - The Issue of Multiple-Exceptionalities00:59:35 - Understanding and Overcoming Trauma01:04:39 - Apologizing Without Excuses01:06:09 - The Complexity of Personal Identity and Labels* A transcript of this episode is available on our website. Resources from this episodeThe 5 Levels of Gifted Children Grown Up: What They Tell Us (Amazon)5 Levels of Gifted: School Issues and Educational Options (Amazon)Keys to Successfully Parenting the Gifted Child (Amazon)Gifted Through the Lifespan (Dr. Ruf on Substack) Five Levels of Gifted (Dr. Ruf’s website)Karen Nelson’s 1989 paper from Advanced Development JournalConversations on Gifted Trauma podcast Personality Page (The price is now $6.99 per test, but worthwhile for those who are interested)Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 49, Chris and Emma delve into the topic of socialization. We discussed how our understanding of socialization has evolved and how it plays a role in personal growth. We emphasized the deliberate nature of multilevel development and that individuals must actively and consciously engage in the process. Simply going through life on autopilot or relying on automatic responses and behaviors is not enough. We must be intentional and self-created in our individual approaches to personal growth.We shared insights on the fluid nature of socialization and how it intertwines with the development of dynamisms in our lives. We reflected on the impact of socialization on personal growth and the challenges one must face. Sometimes, the heart does not want to let go of certain beliefs, even if the mind cognitively understands that they may not be beneficial. This emotional attachment to certain beliefs can be a challenge to overcome in the journey of personal growth.We emphasized the importance of self-reflection and critical examination of our motivations and beliefs to understand the extent to which others have influenced them. By doing so, we can better understand ourselves and make more conscious choices in our lives. We discussed the importance of developing confidence in one's own path and not relying on external validation. We also acknowledged that external feedback can serve as a reminder or a prompt to check one's compass and ensure they are heading in the right direction.Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 48, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Michael M. Piechowski, close collaborator of Dr. Kazimierz Dąbrowski and a scholar in the field of gifted education. Michael’s work has expanded our understanding of the theory of positive disintegration and the qualitative experience of giftedness.We covered many topics in this episode, from Michael meeting Dąbrowski in Edmonton in 1967 to his retirement from Yunasa last summer. We learned about Michael’s early work with the theory and conducting research, the transition from science to counseling and pursuing a second doctorate, rethinking the levels of development, and understanding the importance of the unilevel and multilevel processes.Michael talked with us about the research he did with Dąbrowski that provided a foundation for his work. We learned about the creation of his original Overexcitability Questionnaire, his second dissertation, Formless Forms, and his two papers from more recent years called Rethinking Dąbrowski’s Theory. We discussed why he felt it was necessary to rethink the levels and what case material was applied to this work.This episode was recorded at Michael’s home during Chris’s visit to Madison, Wisconsin, and the format is conversational. We learned more about what Dr. Dąbrowski was like as a person and how to pronounce his name correctly. Michael also talked with us about what areas of research he’d like to see replicated or built on in the future.Highlights from Episode 48:00:02:59 Meeting Dąbrowski in Edmonton00:06:18 Summer 1968 at Esalen00:09:22 Science and counseling are different00:10:46 Multilevelness research with Dąbrowski00:17:14 Formless Forms00:25:51 Rethinking levels of development00:34:17 Bandura’s mechanisms of moral disengagement00:42:09 Levels as universes00:46:42 Future areas of research00:49:00 What Dąbrowski was like00:51:03 The need to replicate Lysy’s study00:53:20 YunasaExtended show notes are available for paid subscribers. *There is a transcript available for this episode on our website. Links from this episodeVisit the Piechowski Archive on the Dabrowski Center’s websiteMichael’s book Mellow Out is available via Royal Fireworks PressMichael is co-editor of Living with Intensity and Off the Charts.He is a Senior Fellow of the Institute for Educational Advancement.Michael mentioned co-creating Yunasa with two of his dear friends who have also been podcast guests: Episode 19 with Stephanie Tolan and Episode 35 with Dr. Patty Gatto-Walden.Chris has written posts about Michael with links and photos to accompany this episode, including:Who is Michael M. Piechowski?Celebrating a Lifetime of Resilience, Scholarship, and InfluenceMy Experience of Being a StudentMajor works that were mentioned:Michael’s 1975 monographFormless FormsLysy & Piechowski (1983)Rethinking Dabrowski’s Theory: I. The Case Against Primary Integration (2014)Rethinking Dąbrowski’s Theory II: It’s Not All Flat Here (2017)Michael’s ResearchGate ProfileEpisode 18 with Rachel FellEpisode 36: Fostering Gifted Growth at YunasaConnect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 47, Chris and Emma talked with Katy McDaniel and Emily Strand from the Potterversity podcast. Katy is a professor of history at Marietta College, and Emily is a professor of religious studies at Mt. Carmel College of Nursing. Emma is the technical director for Potterversity, so her worlds collide in this conversation. We kicked off the discussion by learning more about how the Potterversity pod used to be called something else. It was renamed because of the comments made by the creator of Harry Potter in 2020, which led to the whole team rethinking and realigning their values. We talked about the difficulties of loving art while grappling with problematic artists and authors. Values in the Harry Potter series were a major part of this episode, and we discussed multiple scenes and characters through the lens of positive disintegration. We engaged in a thought-provoking conversation about the significance of difficult emotions and their contribution to personal growth and transformation. We acknowledged the societal pressure to constantly pursue happiness and challenge the notion that something must be wrong if one is not always happy. Embracing powerful and challenging emotions is essential for personal development and transformation.The Harry Potter books do not promise a life devoid of troubles or a fairy-tale ending. Instead, it presents a narrative of alchemical transformation, where characters undergo loss and face challenges, ultimately emerging as something greater. Positive disintegration was explored in this episode as the process of breaking down and reconstructing one's values and sense of self. This transformative journey often entails experiencing difficult emotions such as guilt, shame, ambivalence, and concern for others' opinions. By breaking free from societal scripts and expectations, akin to the characters in Harry Potter, individuals can foster personal growth and authenticity.Overall, the episode underscores the importance of embracing difficult emotions and experiences as catalysts for personal growth and transformation. It challenges the societal expectation of constant happiness and highlights the value of navigating challenging periods to achieve personal development.Links from this episodePotterversity podcastPotterversity Episode 39: Considering Cockroach Clusters: Food in the Wizarding World - Part TwoPotterversity Episode 40: Unpacking PetuniaEmily’s website Potterversity: Essays Exploring the World of Harry Potter (Pre-order now in stock!)Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 46, Chris and Emma celebrate the second birthday of the Positive Disintegration podcast and reflect on their work together. Our first episode launched on October 25, 2021, and in this Quick Bite, we expressed our gratitude for the podcast's positive impact on our lives and the friendship that has developed between us. We shared our initial expectations and how pleasantly surprised we were by the podcast's success and our compatibility as co-hosts. We discussed some feedback we’ve received from guests and listeners, and marveled at the impact it has made……which is, of course, what we originally set out to do, but we had no idea whether or not it would work! We talked about some of the fears and anxieties we had in starting the podcast—fear of not being “perfect,” wondering about whether or not people would embrace the podcast format, and also the nervousness we both had about collaborating when we hardly knew each other.This discussion really is a celebration of all we have achieved, discovered about ourselves (and each other), overcome, and learned. Importantly, it is also an acknowledgment of the contribution that our wonderful guests and listeners have made to both the podcast and our lives.Thank you to everyone who has supported us, and joined us on this journey! Mentioned in this episodeThe echidna: Emma’s Adults with Overexcitabilities YouTube Channel and Tragic Gift blog. Democracy Sausages for Australian Voters Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 45, Chris and Emma discussed the upcoming 16th International Dabrowski Congress, which will be held virtually on July 11-13, 2024. In the episode, we discussed the proposed format, the theme, keynote speakers, and we put out a call for your action. We're calling for proposals for speakers, for workshops, and also for people to host “watch parties” in their local region.The 2024 Dabrowski Congress theme is “Living the Theory,” and there will be keynotes from Lotte van Lith, Dr. Eric Windhorst, and Emma Nicholson. We’ll have programming for live participants in their time zones (Europe, North America, and Australia). We’ll be having watch parties in these regions where people can gather in person to watch and enjoy sessions together. Don’t forget to register your interest and let us know how and where you would like to attend!Links from this episodeOfficial 2024 Dabrowski Congress pageView videos from the 2022 Dąbrowski CongressRegister your interest in the 2024 CongressLearn more about our keynoters, Lotte van Lith, Eric Windhorst, and Emma Nicholson. Lotte was the guest on episode 9, and Eric on episode 10. Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 44, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Matt Zakreski, a clinical psychologist specializing in neurodivergence and giftedness. Matt discussed his personal connections with his work as a psychologist in the gifted field and his experiences being gifted and ADHD. We discussed topics such as neurodivergence, personal growth, and giftedness, and Dr. Matt shared personal stories and insights. Matt talked about embracing complexity and multiple perspectives and told us that he supports autonomy in the path to self-discovery. This means letting people come to their own place of understanding. We don’t have to live in a world of black and white. We can live in a world of unique and infinite complexities. We talked about helping people develop self-efficacy and self-determination. Matt said we’re shaped not only by what happens to us but how we respond to it, and he shared that he sees personality as an ongoing process of development. We discussed misdiagnosis and moving away from the medical model. Speaking of kids in school, Matt said that he believes in the productive struggle rather than a pointless and painful struggle. There’s got to be a direction. Dr. Matt shared the origins of what made him such a strong ally for the LGBTQ+ community. He said we’ve got to make more spaces open for people to come as they are, and when that happens, everybody wins. There are no downsides to letting people be their most authentic selves and get the support and accommodations that are required and necessary to facilitate their growth. We agree wholeheartedly. Listeners are encouraged to approach the complexities of the world with an open mind.Matthew Zakreski, PsyD is a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergent (gifted, 2e, ADHD, Autism, etc.) people and has presented over 200 times all over the country and internationally. He is the co-founder and lead clinician at The Neurodiversity Collective.Links from this episodeThe Neurodiversity Collective (Dr. Matt’s website)You can find Dr. Matt on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.Failure is Fun…damental (YouTube)Falling in Love is Hard on OEs (YouTube)When Emotional Intensity and Cognitive Rigidity Collide (PDF)From The G Word’s GTN Awareness Week: Sex Education For Gifted Kids + LGBTQ Panel with Matt, Chris, Church, and Ilan, hosted by Marc Smolowitz. Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 43, Chris and Emma delved into the topic of trauma and disintegration, spurred by a question from our Facebook community. We discussed that while trauma can act as a catalyst for disintegration, it is not a prerequisite. Disintegration can also be triggered by other life events, such as a spiritual awakening or the recognition of social injustices that demand action.We emphasize that personal growth is more closely linked to the experience of dynamisms rather than trauma alone. Living through trauma doesn't guarantee growth; it's the internal dynamisms that play a pivotal role in one's development.Our conversation also covered the third factor dynamism, a key element guiding an individual's development toward higher or more ethical choices. We explored how self-reflection and value alignment contribute to this complex decision-making process. We encouraged listeners to not only ponder their core values but to also assess whether their actions genuinely align with those beliefs—are you walking your talk?We acknowledged that stepping out of one's comfort zone is often easier said than done. Real transformation involves a multi-faceted approach: deep self-reflection, choices that align with your values, and a concerted effort to break free from unproductive habits and behaviors.Looking ahead, we're excited to announce “Ask Me Anything” episodes. We invite our listeners to submit their questions with the subject or hashtag #AskMeAnything. You can connect with us through Facebook, Instagram, or via email at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com. We look forward to your engagement as we continue to explore the many dimensions of positive disintegration. Links from this episodeWe discussed Dr. Michael M. Piechowski and the thread that runs through his writing about “the work of inner transformation.” We’re planning an Interesting Quotes post on that topic. Emma’s video on Planning Authentic Action With a Process Flow covers the topic of thinking about how you will walk your talk.The Neurodiversity Podcast was mentioned.Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

In episode 42, Chris and Emma continued the conversation with Catherine Zakoian, MA, NCC, LPC, a counselor and consultant from Boulder, Colorado, and author of Raising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential. We started the discussion by asking Catherine to talk about how the dynamisms show up in her clinical practice with gifted children. She shared insights from asking kids to use symbols to identify the different parts of themselves and helping them work through and resolve inner conflicts. Catherine also discussed the tension children can experience about the world around them, reconciling their desire to do good in the world while also feeling repulsed by the state of it. Self-reflection and goal-setting can be beneficial for children. It provides them with an opportunity to think about their ideal self and who they want to be. By guiding children through the reflective process, they can develop an emerging personality ideal and gain the practice of self-reflection. We discussed the delicate work of acknowledging a person's past experiences while helping them navigate their identity. We emphasized the importance of not dismissing or invalidating someone's past but rather acknowledging and validating those experiences. Catherine brought up the fact that Chris has been learning Polish, and Chris shared a little about how and why that happened. Names that came up in this episode included Immanuel Kant, Joseph Chilton Pearce, and Peace Pilgrim. Note that we recorded this episode before Frank Falk passed away in April, which is why we talked about him as we did toward the end of the episode. The Fourth Factor was mentioned, a term that comes from Elizabeth Mika, but we didn’t go into it in depth. Listen to Episode 17 with Elizabeth for more. Links from this episodeRaising Gifted Children: A Practical Guide for Parents Facing Big Emotions and Big Potential by Catherine ZakoianLumineux Institute (Catherine’s website)Connect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookDabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! <3 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

[Voiceover of written post] In part three, Chris reflects on their journey of self-discovery through the lens of Dąbrowski’s theory and autoethnography. They recount how discovering autoethnography provided them with a framework to understand their life experiences, including traumas and their father’s alcoholism. This revelation came during their doctoral studies in psychology, where they also learned about being twice-exceptional (gifted and disabled), challenging their previous beliefs.Chris discusses their struggles with mental health and addiction, initially seeking understanding through psychiatry and later questioning these diagnoses through the lens of autoethnography and Dąbrowski’s theory. They detail their process of self-examination, which included revisiting personal journals, medical records, and conducting interviews with people from their past. This introspection led to a reevaluation of their mental health diagnoses and a decision to stop taking psychiatric medications.Their exploration of Dąbrowski’s theory, particularly through interactions with Michael Piechowski and Linda Silverman, helped them reframe their understanding of their mental health and intellectual giftedness. This new perspective enabled them to see their intense experiences not as symptoms of illness but as strengths. Chris emphasizes the transformative power of self-understanding and acceptance, culminating in a newfound sense of liberation and purpose to share their insights with others. They conclude by encouraging others on similar paths to be patient and kind to themselves in their journey of self-discovery and healing. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe