Boundaryless Conversations Podcast

Alicia Juarrero is founder and president of VectorAnalytica with a doctorate in philosophy from the University of Miami, where she is also currently a research associate. She is the author of the book Dynamics in Action (2008), and the upcoming Context Changes Everything (2023), both published by MIT Press. We’ve all heard about how organizations are like natural organisms, but is that really true? And if it is, how can we get inspired by nature in designing and understanding them? In this episode, we talk to Alicia about her work in complexity theory and how it applies to organizations. Alicia takes from Aristotle the image of the organization as a natural organism and unpacks the biological reality of organizing.  Parts of a natural organism, like a cell, are different from just parts of a material mass. A complex organization is a system where members and teams define themselves by their role and through interaction with other parts of the system. This has specific consequences on the hierarchy and management of teams embedded in various contextual layers. In these complex organizations, boundaries and enabling constraints have a role to steer direction, and managers should act as catalysts, not applying coercive forces. Remember that you can always find the full episode and transcript on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/alicia-juarrero/ Key Highlights 👉 The cellular-based ecosystemic organization is not governed by hierarchy and external forces. 👉 “Life and death” of the components of an organization make it dynamic and adaptable. 👉 Boundaries in biological reality are permeable interfaces, not mechanistic edges. Topics (Chapters) 00:03:04 Organization as “organism” 00:09:45 Hierarchy in social organizations 00:12:25 Three levels we have to consider when thinking of a social organization 00:20:29 How to set goals in a complex organization? 00:36:35 The role of enabling constraints 00:44:38 Alicia’s Breadcrumbs To find out more about Alicia Juarrero’s work: 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alicia-juarrero-93b3a25/ 👉 Website: https://www.vectoranalytica.com/ Other References and Mentions: 👉 Dynamics in Action (2002) - Alicia Juarrero: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262600477/dynamics-in-action/ 👉 The Self-Organization of Intentional Action: https://www.cairn.info/revue-internationale-de-philosophie-2004-2-page-189.htm 👉 Constraints that Enable Innovation - Alicia Juarrero: https://vimeo.com/128934608 Alicia’s Suggested Breadcrumbs (Things Listeners Should Check Out): 👉 "Boundaries, hierarchies and networks in complex systems" - Paul Cilliers: https://blogs.cim.warwick.ac.uk/complexity/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2014/02/Cilliers-2001-Boundaries-Hierarchies-and-Networks.pdf 👉 The Theory of Graceful Extensibility: Basic Rules that Govern Adaptive Systems - David D Woods: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327427067_The_Theory_of_Graceful_Extensibility_Basic_rules_that_govern_adaptive_systems Recorded on 7 October 2022. Get in touch with Boundaryless: Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ 👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 👉 Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo/ Music Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

Casey Winters is a growth advisor and operator who helps companies scale. Casey is a legend of product growth and marketplaces, and, among many other things, he’s an advisor and operator that helps companies address the problem of scale. Most recently, Casey was the Chief Product Officer at Eventbrite. Before that, he had extensive experience working for and advising companies such as Grubhub, Pinterest, Airbnb, Canva, Thumbtack, Reddit, Hipcamp, Faire, and many others. Casey is also a partner at Reforge, one of the leading growth programs available. Besides sharing real-world experiences from his career, in this episode, Casey provides insights about how companies can leverage their organizational model as a growth lever. Casey explains how the growth model is a unique aspect of each company and highlights the importance of reducing friction to allow growth to flow more strongly. We also discuss how the responsibility for driving network effects often shifts from local teams to more centralized functions over time, and how leaders should think about autonomy when managing growth and product teams. Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/casey-winters/ Key Highlights of the Conversation 👉 The organizational structure can change according to strategy, especially at the early stage of a business. 👉 Growth model: what it is and the structures you need around it. 👉 OKRs and creative spaces: how should a leader balance these in a team? 👉 How can marketing and growth teams work together? 👉 Brand vs. performance: how a startup should think about it. To find out more about Casey’s work: 👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/onecaseman 👉 Website: https://caseyaccidental.com/ 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywinters/ Other References and Mentions: 👉 The Types of Product Team Organizational Structures | Casey Accidental: https://caseyaccidental.com/product-organizational-structures/ 👉 Conway's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law 👉 The Autonomy Spectrum: https://caseyaccidental.com/the-autonomy-spectrum 👉 Dynamic creative optimization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_creative_optimization 👉 Reforge teaching: https://www.reforge.com/advanced-growth-strategy-series Casey’s Suggested Breadcrumbs (Things Listeners Should Check Out): 👉 Severant - Kuedo: https://kuedo.bandcamp.com/album/severant-2022-edition 👉 Infinite Window - Kuedo: https://kuedo.bandcamp.com/album/infinite-window Recorded on 17 October 2022. Get in Touch with Boundaryless: Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ 👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 👉 Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts/ 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo/ Music Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

Bonnitta Roy is a pioneer in education. She’s the founder of Alderlore Insight Center, the POP-UP School, and C-LABS. She teaches insight practices for individuals developing meta-cognitive skills (ed: thinking about thinking) and hosts collective insight retreats for groups interested in breaking away from typical limiting patterns of thought. In addition, she teaches a master’s course in consciousness studies and transpersonal psychology at the Graduate Institute. As an educator, Bonnitta Roy is focused on what she defines as Post Formal Actors (PFA): people who have a strong intuition toward post-formal thinking without necessarily being sophisticated thinkers (yet) and who see formal rules as optional. According to Bonnitta, this phenomenon occurs in different settings, for example, when students start to see that their teachers don’t hold educational authority. Without proper pedagogical support to become more sophisticated thinkers, however, post-formal actors can be seen only as "deviants" rather than as a resource. On the other hand, because of their skills, post-formal actors can provide a new perspective and a new way to see and do things, embracing the challenges we face. They can, as Bonnitta says, "hedge against social collapse." Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/bonnitta-roy/ Key Highlights from the Conversation 👉 Post formal actors (PFA): how this definition was born. 👉 The mismatch between the skills we learn in school and what we really need in life. 👉 PFA as a positive force for the world and for organizations. 👉 Tokenization of value and what it means for organizing. 👉 The importance of stability in a system. 👉 Ontological design and modernity as "defuturing." To find out more about Bonnitta Roy’s work: 👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/bonnittaroy 👉 Website: https://bonnittaroy.medium.com/ 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bonnittaroy/ Other References and Mentions: 👉 Alderlore Insight Center: https://alderloreinsightcenter.com/ 👉 POP-UP School: https://bonnittaroy.substack.com/ 👉 C-LABS: https://www.c-labs.net/ 👉 The Graduate Institute: https://learn.edu/ 👉 The episode of Daily of the Month Podcast where Bonnitta and Simone first explored a convergence around Post-Formal actors: https://www.agile-podcast.de/blog/folge-29-21st-century-human-thesis/ 👉 Post Formal Thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postformal_thought 👉 Robert Kegan’s works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kegan#In_Over_Our_Heads 👉 Developmental stage theories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_stage_theories 👉 Bayo Akomolafe: https://www.bayoakomolafe.net/about 👉 Nora Bateson episode: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/nora-bateson/ 👉 The Manifesto of Ontological Design: https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/the-manifesto-of-ontological-design-7fdb19169107 Bonitta’s Suggested Breadcrumbs (Things Listeners Should Check Out): 👉 Doomer Optimism Podcast: https://www.doomeroptimism.com/ 👉 One Hundred Thousand Beating Hearts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoQWLK8-CYE 👉 The Salt of the Earth (trailer): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OivMlWXtWpY Recorded on 19 September 2022. Get in Touch with Boundaryless: Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ 👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 👉 Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts/ 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo/ Music Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

Chase Chapman is a DAO researcher at Metropolis, focused on exploring how DAOs will shape the way humans think about and engage in work. She is an angel investor, host of On the Other Side, a podcast exploring the human side of web3, and spends most of her time collaborating with and writing about DAOs. DAOs—Decentralized Autonomous Organizations—represent one of the most interesting concepts in the blockchain-enabled space. A DAO is a self-governing organization independent from any central authority, and its rules are enforced by smart contracts. In this episode, Chase helps us better understand how DAOs have evolved over the last few years and explore today’s DAO landscape. We also dive deeper into the possibilities of developing an inter-DAO evolutionary organization model and debate the importance of developing organizational building blocks that can interoperate across DAOs and, eventually, traditional organizations. With Chase, we also discussed how the atomic unit of the DAO (and organizing) is not the individual contributor but rather the small group, and how DAO tooling is moving from financial tools to cultural and organizational tools. We talked about how traditional organizations can also use this approach (or maybe not) and how DAOs can possibly help governments develop public policies that facilitate social and ecological transition. Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/chase-chapman/ Key Highlights from the Conversation 👉 The DAO landscape has changed: it was once heavy on automation, now it's a way for companies to become more democratic. 👉 DAO is a modular ecosystem, composed of a “quite monolithic DAO” community. 👉 Trustware vs. Socialware. 👉 How Metropolis’ pods help small groups play a role in the DAO system. 👉 How DAOs can work in a traditional context. To Find Out More About Chase’s Work: 👉 Chase’s podcast - On The Other Side: https://www.othersidepod.xyz/ 👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/chaserchapman 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chasechapman/ 👉 Chase's appearance on Kevin Owoki's podcast Green Pill, where she spoke about Socialware and Trustware: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/34-evolutionary-daos-with-chase-chapman 👉 The original post on Socialware and Trustware: https://blog.metropolis.space/scaling-trust-in-daos-trustware-vs-socialware/ Other References and Mentions: 👉 The DAO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_DAO_(organization) 👉 Cryptokitties: https://www.cryptokitties.co/ 👉 Metalabel: https://www.metalabel.xyz/ 👉 David Ronfelt’s TIMN framework: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2005/P7967.pdf 👉 Balaji Srinivasan’s The Network State: https://thenetworkstate.com/the-network-state Chase’s Suggested Breadcrumbs (Things Listeners Should Check Out): 👉 A Prehistory of DAOs by Kei Kreutler: https://gnosisguild.mirror.xyz/t4F5rItMw4-mlpLZf5JQhElbDfQ2JRVKAzEpanyxW1Q 👉 Life after lifestyle by Toby Shorin: https://subpixel.space/entries/life-after-lifestyle/ Get in Touch with Boundaryless: Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ 👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 👉 Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts/ 👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo/ Music Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

The Boundaryless Conversations Podcast is the podcast where pioneers, thinkers, and entrepreneurs talk about the future of business models, organizations, markets, and society. With Simone Cicero and Stina Heikkila (and other occasional co-hosts), you’ll explore the future of Platforms & Ecosystems and discover newly emerging perspectives on how we organize at scale in a rapidly changing world. The Boundaryless Conversations Podcast is for those looking to reinvent their organization and its business model or simply seeking new ways to respond to the rapid changes we’re seeing in society. So, whether you are thinking of transforming your career or your business, this podcast will help you understand how networks and emerging technologies reshape markets. Subscribe to The Boundaryless Conversations Podcast on your preferred podcasting platform and… start to think boundaryless. The Boundaryless Conversations Podcast is brought to you by Boundaryless, a pioneer in platform and ecosystem thinking that creates open design and strategic tools for reinventing business models, organizations, and society. For more information: https://boundaryless.io Get in Touch with Boundaryless: Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ > Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ > Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts/ > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo/ Music Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

We are soon about to launch the 4th season of the Podcast. Before doing so, we would like to explore with our community the value you perceive from the podcast, how to improve it and how to make it more sustainable on our side. We’re proud to have released 62 Episodes so far in three series, interviewing key voices that are shaping the way we build scalable, ecosystemic, and platform-based organizations: we now kindly ask you to share your feedback to help us move forward. Please fill out the following survey: https://blss.io/PodcastSurvey The Survey is suitable for loyal listeners as well as occasional ones, and investigates perceived value, structure, premium content, and sustainability strategy! We look forward to your help!

Gigi Levy-Weiss, a Founding Partner at NFX, heads up NFX Israel and is widely known as one of the most prolific investors in the region. Gigi has founded several startups, including Playtika, Beach Bum (acquired by Voodoo), InceptionVR, and Ridge. He was also the CEO of 888 Holdings, one of the world’s leading online gaming companies, and served as Division President at Amdocs, a leading billing and CRM provider. In 2014, Gigi was appointed to Facebook’s EMEA Client Advisory Council, and in 2015, he joined the supervisory board at Bertelsmann, one of the world’s largest media companies. As a pilot in the Israeli Air Force, Gigi learned the value of striving for excellence at all times, building learning organizations, and that working together as a team is the real secret to winning. Tune in to this episode as we explore what other industries can learn from gaming companies, the four layers of the evolution of Web3 marketplaces, the existential role of technology—and why Web3 hasn’t changed the world yet. At the end of the episode, we give a short wrap-up of Season 3 of the podcast—this being the last episode for the season—where we reflect on what we learned and discuss key topics related to organizing at scale. We explore the importance of modularity and composability in markets (also check out this piece: https://boundaryless.io/blog/towards-modular-and-composable-markets/ for more insights), as well as thoughts on our relationship with technology, adopting a regenerative mindset, and convivial organizational models. A transcript of the episode can be found on our website. Key Highlights from the Conversation We discussed: > What we can learn from the gaming industry in the context of platforms, ecosystems, and marketplaces > What it means to be a learning organization > Designing products for people to engage in learning > How Gigi approaches Web3 as an investor > The role of centralized services in platforms > Solving real-world challenges through Web3 To Find Out More About Gigi's Work: > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gigilevy/ > Twitter: https://twitter.com/gigilevy > NFX: https://www.nfx.com/ Other References and Mentions: > Fabrice Grinda and Matias Barbero, “Crypto-Enabled Marketplaces,” 2022: https://fabricegrinda.com/crypto-enabled-marketplaces/ > Showing the Way with Web3 Marketplaces: Braintrust—with Gabriel Luna-Ostaseski: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/braintrust/ > Nathan Schneider, “Web3 Is the Opportunity We Have Had All Along: Innovation Amnesia and Economic Democracy”: https://osf.io/2wg6s?view_only=709f1f87528943a4b27de2b5eb0f9eef Find Out More About the Show and the Research at Boundaryless: https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://boundaryless.io/podcast-music Recorded on 20 July 2022.

Sangeet Choudary returns to the show, and in this episode, we unpack key insights from his latest work – The Building Blocks Thesis. Sangeet Paul Choudary is the founder of Platformation Labs and the best-selling author of Platform Revolution and Platform Scale. He has advised the leadership of more than 30 of the Fortune 500 firms and has been recognized as a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum. Sangeet’s work on platforms has been selected by the Harvard Business Review as one of the top 10 ideas in strategy and has been featured three times in the HBR Top 10 Must Reads compilations. He is appointed to advisory boards and committees at several Global 2000 firms and government bodies, including the ING Group, the MAS’s ASEAN Financial Innovation Network, Boson Protocol, and Standard Bank Group, South Africa. Sangeet is a frequent keynote speaker at leading global forums, including the G20 Summit, the World50 Summit, the United Nations, and the World Economic Forum. In this episode, we delve into Sangeet's recent report and explore how the building block approach can play out in the real-world economy, despite it still being early days. We also discuss why the fundamentals in venture capital will change, the nature of composability, the role of DAOs, and empowering the end-stakeholder. A full transcript of the episode can be found on our website: boundaryless.io/podcast/sangeet-choudary/ Key Highlights from the Conversation > Markets evolve towards more composability as more of the value chain becomes digitized. > Traditional extraction models (e.g., economies of complements, data lock-ins, etc.) are challenged. > Value extraction will move to the venture investing and fund layers. > Organizations will need to adopt a more DAO-like structure and become more context-rich (3EO framework). To Find Out More About Sangeet's Work: > Twitter: twitter.com/sanguit > LinkedIn: sg.linkedin.com/in/sangeetpaul > Newsletter: platforms.substack.com/ > Building Blocks Thesis: platformthinkinglabs.com/building-blocks/ You can get an illustrated copy of the Web3 Bootstrapping Playbook, launching in September 2022. Sign up here to get early access: https://bit.ly/3oaRwaP Other References and Mentions: > Ekstep Foundation: ekstep.org/ > "Jack Dorsey says VCs really own Web3 (and Web3 boosters are pretty mad about it)", The Verge, December 2021: www.theverge.com/2021/12/21/22848…-capital-twitter > Re-bundling the Firm around Problems to Be Solved – with Sangeet Paul Choudary: boundaryless.io/podcast/sangeet-paul-choudary/ > Building Permissionless Ecosystems: Data and Infrastructure at DIMO – with Rob Solomon: boundaryless.io/podcast/rob-solomon/ Find Out More About the Show and the Research at Boundaryless: https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: boundaryless.io/podcast-music Recorded on 9 June 2022.

Lisa Gill is an organizational self-management coach and trainer with Tuff Leadership Training. She was included in the Thinkers50 Radar 2020 for her work with self-managing teams. Lisa is also the host of the Leadermorphosis podcast, where she has interviewed thought leaders and practitioners worldwide about the future of work, and the author of Moose Heads on the Table: Stories About Self-Managing Organisations from Sweden (2020). Tune in to this episode as we discuss why the way we are working is not working. We reflect on new ways of working, the post-agile era of interrogating the “what,” the power of peer-led movements, some great new technologies that are emerging, and why we can’t solve things simply with systems or processes. A full transcript of the episode can be found on our website. Key Highlights > Emerging trends in the world of organizing and teams. > The emerging technologies shaping how we organize. > The importance of identifying guiding principles when adopting new technologies. > Lessons Lisa has learned from working with new types of organizations. > The need to shift behaviors—not just systems. To Find Out More About Lisa’s Work: > Twitter: https://twitter.com/disruptandlearn > Website: https://www.reimaginaire.com/ > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-gill-23815a4/ > Leadermorphosis Podcast: https://leadermorphosis.co/ > Moose Heads on the Table: Stories About Self-Managing Organisations from Sweden (2020): https://www.amazon.com/Moose-Heads-Table-Karin-Tenelius/dp/9151954508/ Other References and Mentions: > Sensemaking Webinar #1 – Organizational Adaptation to the Changing Landscape: https://boundaryless.io/video/sensemaking-webinar-1-organizational-adaptation-to-the-changing-landscape/ > Enspiral: https://www.enspiral.com/ > Loomio: https://www.loomio.com/ > Cobudget: https://cobudget.com/ > Murmur: https://www.murmur.com/ > Maptio: https://www.maptio.com/ > Huddle Craft: https://www.huddlecraft.com/ > Money Movers: https://www.wearemoneymovers.com/ > Teaming: How Organizations Learn, Innovate, and Compete in the Knowledge Economy by Amy C. Edmondson (2012): https://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Organizations-Innovate-Compete-Knowledge-ebook/dp/B007MF3BRA > Matt Black Systems: https://www.mattblacksystems.com/ > The Sovereign Individual: Mastering the Transition to the Information Age by James Dale Davidson and William Rees-Mogg (1999): https://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Individual-Mastering-Transition-Information/dp/0684832720 > The Bitcoin Standard: The Decentralized Alternative to Central Banking by Saifedean Ammous (2018): https://www.amazon.com/Bitcoin-Standard-Decentralized-Alternative-Central/dp/1119473861/ > The Fiat Standard: The Debt Slavery Alternative to Human Civilization by Saifedean Ammous (2021): https://www.amazon.com/Fiat-Standard-Slavery-Alternative-Civilization/dp/1544526474 Find Out More About the Show and the Research at Boundaryless: https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://boundaryless.io/podcast-music Recorded on 8 June 2022.

Today we're joined by Tracheopteryx – or Trach – a pioneer of decentralized governance, operations, and compensation systems. Trach is co-founder of Coordinape and a previous contributor to yearn finance. In this conversation, we delve into what DAOs are and why the future lies in this framework. We also talk about the connection between ownership and decision-making, striving for a 'trustless' infrastructure, why we might not see companies like Apple or Google 'go DAO' soon, the role of six-person teams – and why everyone working on DAOs is, in essence, collaborating to create a greater pie. A full transcript of the episode can be found on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/tracheopteryx/ Key Highlights We discussed: > What DAOs are and the key differences with corporate governance. > Trustless mechanisms and the Blockchain. > How likely existing traditional players are to embrace DAOs. > What we mean by the word 'trustless'. > How non-developers can get involved with DAOs projects. To Find Out More About Trach’s Work: > Twitter: https://twitter.com/tracheopteryx > Website: https://coordinape.com/ Other References and Mentions: > Compensation in DAOs with Tracheopteryx on the Collectively Intelligent Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/compensation-in-daos-with-tracheopteryx/id1577798978?i=1000538952056 > Helium: https://www.helium.com/technology > Colony: Distributed Organizations That Actually Work – with Aron Fischer and Jack du Rose: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/colony/ > Moving Beyond Coin Voting Governance by Vitalik Buterin: https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/08/16/voting3.html > Blue Sky Project: https://blueskyweb.xyz/ > Thirsty Thirsty: https://www.thirstythirsty.org/ > Ronald Coase, The Nature of the Firm, 1937: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0335.1937.tb00002.x Find Out More About the Show and the Research at Boundaryless: https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://boundaryless.io/podcast-music Recorded on 3 June 2022.