Hosts Brett Terpstra, Christina Warren, and Jeff Severns Guntzel welcome special guest Corey O’Brien, author of ‘Two Truths and a Lie,’ who shares his existential journey of writing and promoting his first novel, a rich “noir cyberpunk” entry. From the gritty soul of cyberpunk to the calming practice of metal welding, this episode is a rollercoaster of conversations, insights, and creative tools. Overtired style. 00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement 00:54 Corey O’Brien’s Background and Career 02:43 Transition to Fictional Writing 05:44 Mental Health Corner 06:23 Brett’s Job Update 09:20 Jeff’s Workshop and Squirrel Saga 13:53 Christina’s New Job Experience 18:17 Corey’s Mental Health and Medication 28:33 Promoting the Novel 33:40 Inspiration and World-Building 46:20 The Evolution of Cyberspace 48:29 Economics of Memory 52:44 Queer Love Story in Fiction 58:49 Writing Dialogue Trees for Video Games 01:03:06 Tools for Writing and Productivity 01:26:08 The Importance of Business Cards 01:31:13 Closing Remarks and Recommendations Show Links Two Truths and a Lie Myths Retold Redfall Squirrel Obstacle Course The Through – A Raphael Johnson Devil in a blue dress Mona Lisa Overdrive The Peripheral Snow Crash Farewell my Lovely Inkle Twine Obsidian OEI Tools Scrivener Soulver Sendy Cork PowerToys on Windows NotebookLM Blinq Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Two Truths and a Lie With Cory O’Brien Introduction and Special Guest Announcement [00:00:00] Brett: Hello, welcome to a very special Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren and Jeff Severns Guntzel. And this week we have the Long Promise special guest Corey O’Brien, author of Two Truths and a Lie. How’s it going, Corey? [00:00:21] Cory: It’s going great. Happy to be here. [00:00:23] Jeff: Hi, Corey. We’re saying hello. [00:00:30] Brett: Um, yeah, so we’re, we’re definitely gonna talk about the book. I have filled Corey in on kind of our usual format, and he’s down for, for playing along with what we usually do. So, um, I, I feel a little weird jumping right into Mental Health Corner. I want a little bit more robust of an intro. Corey O’Brien’s Background and Career [00:00:54] Brett: So, Corey, tell us a little about you. [00:00:58] Cory: Uh, sure. [00:01:00] It’s a, it’s a, it’s a big question. [00:01:02] Brett: It is. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. That was so vague. [00:01:05] Jeff: Tell me who you are. [00:01:06] Cory: all right. Uh, I am a writer game designer man about town. I, [00:01:15] Jeff: that’s you. I saw. [00:01:16] Cory: yeah, yeah. I’m all over the place. You see a guy that’s me [00:01:20] Jeff: That’s you. [00:01:20] Cory: watching you, counting your teeth. Uh, I, I, uh, I, I used to write a website called, uh, mire Told where I would tell mythology like it was 3:00 AM and I was drunk in a chat room. [00:01:34] Cory: And I did that. I did that for many years, parlayed it into a small level of notoriety that somehow got my publisher to pitch me to everyone as the beloved internet humorist, which I still, I still find kind of embarrassing. But, uh, then, then over time, like what I’ve always wanted to do is write books. Uh, and so over time sort of parly the notoriety from the blog into.[00:02:00] [00:02:00] Cory: A career writing for video games. Uh, I’ve written for, uh, the comedy dating sim called Monster Prom. And then, uh, my favorite game that I, that I worked on is Hollow Vista, but you can only play it if you have an iPhone, unfortunately, which I don’t, I haven’t even played it in its native environment. I’ve played it, I’ve played it in like a browser version, but, uh, and then, uh, and now I work for like, um, for like fancy 3D games, writing dialogue, trees and stuff. [00:02:29] Cory: But, uh, my, my number one passion is writing books and I’m very excited that I finally have this novel out. And so that’s, that, that, that brings me to this present moment. [00:02:41] Christina: Um, so. Transition to Fictional Writing [00:02:43] Christina: How, how, um, I guess what was your process, I guess, moving from, uh, have you been like, I guess like writing short stories, like your whole life, uh, you know, I know you’ve done the, the, uh, the, the humor thing and, and you’ve worked, um, you know, um, game stuff. But what was, I guess, your process of transitioning to, um, [00:03:00] uh, fair, um, fictional, like narrative writing. [00:03:04] Cory: I, I have been writing stories for as long as like, I knew that was a thing you could do, and I, I used to write a number of short stories. I, like, I went to graduate school for creative writing. I wrote a lot of short stories then yeah, I left that part [00:03:19] Brett: Yeah, that’s an important piece. [00:03:21] Christina: I was gonna say that helps, [00:03:22] Cory: But I, I, I don’t think, I don’t think that graduate school, like graduate school certainly gave me a lot of opportunity to practice writing, but I don’t think, I don’t think it turned me into a writer. [00:03:32] Cory: I [00:03:32] Christina: No, you already were, but, but, but, but it, but yeah. But I think the opportunity to practice is, is probably helpful. [00:03:37] Cory: yeah. And also meeting people and being in an environment where that’s encouraged. I really think of graduate school as like paying an enormous amount of money to larp that you have the job that you wanted to have for, for like two years, which is, I, I had, I had the luxury of being able to do that. Um, but I, what I have always specifically wanted to do is write long form narrative. [00:03:59] Cory: I [00:04:00] wanted to write novels. I, I don’t, I don’t know exactly what it is. I think my best explanation for why is that the stories that have affected me the most that have given me like a real physical, visceral reaction have been books because they can set something up over a long period and then like bring it all together at once in this rush. [00:04:22] Cory: And, uh, so that’s, that’s always been really exciting to me. And so that’s always been what I wanted to do and I’ve just basically spent many years working myself up to that. ’cause writing books is hard. [00:04:34] Jeff: Writing books is like existential. I, I’ve never written a book and everyone I know that has, it’s like a, it’s a journey. It’s a, it’s a dark journey sometimes. A lovely journey. Is that true for you? [00:04:45] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, I, I’m sure that there are some people, I mean, I know that there are some people for whom books are just like, they just, they just write ’em, they just [00:04:55] Brett: Jeremy Robinson. Jeremy Robinson puts out a book like every two months [00:05:00] in their, their bangers, and I don’t know how anyone does that. [00:05:03] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I have sort of come to grips with the fact that that is not my temperament. Like, I do like writing. I do like, eventually I do like the stuff that I write when I have enough distance from it. But it is a process, especially because I’m already always doing so many things. Uh, you know, maybe if I was locked in a room like they did with Douglas Adams later in his career, I could just like write a book real fast. [00:05:30] Cory: Generally write the first draft really fast and then like. Go insane. Trying to, trying to write the, the, the future drafts and really tear myself [00:05:41] Jeff: oh my God, I have so many process questions. I’m [00:05:43] Jeff: gonna Mental Health Corner [00:05:44] Brett: well, let’s make, let’s make this our mental health corner. Let’s make it all about Corey. [00:05:48] Cory: Yeah. [00:05:50] Brett: And, and I would be curious to know what your mental health was like while writing this last book and what it’s like now that it is officially [00:06:00] released. [00:06:00] Cory: Woo. That’s a good question. I don’t wanna be the only person doing a mental health check-in though. [00:06:06] Christina: Oh, no, no, no, no. We’ll all, no, no, no, no, no. We’ll, we’ll all go. We’ll, we’ll go. [00:06:10] Brett: Do you wanna go first or last then? [00:06:12] Cory: Well, I’m, I’m in your house, so I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do whatever the done thing is. [00:06:18] Brett: Okay, I’ll go first. I’ll kick it off. Uh, I’ll keep mine short. Brett’s Job Update [00:06:23] Brett: Um, my job, we talked last week at length about how messed up my job situation was. Um, I went to therapy for it and my therapist was very helpful in helping me see that my manager that I have so many conflicts with also had some IFS type parts coming up. [00:06:46] Brett: Um, and we were able to kind of hit like a working flow, but at the same time, and don’t tell my manager this, this is private, [00:06:57] Jeff: I think you’re telling your manager this. [00:06:59] Brett: I. [00:07:00] I reached out to a pre, like one of the first managers I ever had who had gotten moved off. There was a whole, like the first major shakeup was when she got moved off to another team. [00:07:11] Brett: Um, and I talked to her and I said, Hey, here’s what I’m doing these days. You know, any other teams that might be able to use that skillset? And she’s like, well, I could. Um, and her headcount is frozen right now, but she thinks she might be able to make an exception. So problem might be solved just by going to a work for a manager I already respect and I already get along with. [00:07:37] Brett: And that, that alone, just knowing that’s a possibility, has made it easier for me to deal with the present, um, and to not be in a constant state of panic and frustration. So, yeah. Uh, think things are better. This week I. [00:07:53] Christina: Good. [00:07:54] Jeff: awesome. What a good thing to hear. [00:07:59] Christina: sure.[00:08:00] [00:08:01] Jeff: Who’s got the birds? It’s such a nice sound. [00:08:03] Brett: thought that was you. [00:08:04] Jeff: No. Fuck no, man. We got nothing [00:08:06] Brett: I think, I think that must be Corey then [00:08:08] Cory: Yes, [00:08:09] Jeff: Thanks for bringing the birds, Corey, [00:08:11] Cory: Yeah, no worries. [00:08:12] Jeff: tropical, uh, Chicago [00:08:14] Brett: Well, and he is got the tropical shirt on too, so it’s just kind of a, [00:08:18] Jeff: it the shirt? Is it the shirt I’m hearing? [00:08:20] Cory: It is, it’s the shirt. The weather here has been wildly unpredictable. This is the time of year where you really can’t predict what the weather is gonna be from moment to moment. And [00:08:30] Brett: was almost 80 here yesterday and tonight it’s gonna snow. [00:08:35] Cory: yeah, yeah. That happened a couple weeks ago here, 80 into snowing. And so you see a lot of people around here, uh, when it’s 80 degrees wearing a sweatshirt. ’cause they’re like, don’t trust [00:08:44] Christina: don’t know. No, [00:08:46] Brett: It’s still March. [00:08:48] Christina: that’s still marsh. No, I mean, and that’s the worst because, uh, at least for me anyway, like my, my sinuses, my, like my allergies really go badly when there’s, uh, sudden weather changes. So if it goes from like really cold to really hot or like, [00:09:00] and the barometric pressure changes, like my migraines go crazy, my sinuses go [00:09:04] Brett: my, my pots and my dizziness get way worse with the barometric changes. Like today, with the barometer shifting the way it is, I’m like, I’m, it’s like I’m drunk walking around the house. I’m tipsy everywhere. But anyway. Jeff, Jeff, why don’t you go. Jeff’s Workshop and Squirrel Saga [00:09:20] Jeff: Uh, I’m, you know, this happens every year, uh, when it’s this time, but yesterday when it was 75, the rest of the week is forties. But, um. I officially opened up my workshop and, uh, and it’s all completely ready for projects. Um, Corey, I have a workshop where I rebuild very old machinery and I do some welding and, and woodwork and just general fuckery. [00:09:44] Jeff: Um, and, and it’s like my favorite thing in the world. It’s my favorite place to be. Um, and I feel most landed in that place. And, and in a time like this, especially being able to kind of open that up and just be sitting in there, it’s the best. And I get to, um, return to a [00:10:00] project I started in the fall, which is rebuilding this a hundred year old, um, lathe for doing metal working. [00:10:05] Jeff: It’s about two tons. Um, and, and it’s, you know, I, I, I cleared out grease, uh, from the Harding administration when I was cleaning it, and now I’m, I’m at the kind of rebuilding point and it’s awesome. And so I bring that, I, I bring that here. I mean, of all the other things, whether it’s medications, therapy, just generally taking care of myself, having a place like that where I feel. [00:10:28] Jeff: That landed, um, is such a huge, huge thing. The problem, which I won’t go into now, but maybe future episodes, is I’m in a prote protracted war with a squirrel that insists on living in my garage. And, um, and I’ve been taking a lot of video. My wife is constantly catches me outside arguing with the squirrel. [00:10:46] Jeff: Um, and it has become a defining, uh, part of my life over the last, uh, I think week and a half as of yesterday, it chewed through a fucking window frame to get back in. Uh, I respect this squirrel. Um, and it’s maybe giving me a, [00:11:00] this is mental health. It’s, it might be giving me a lesson in resilience, um, and durability, uh, in a hard time. [00:11:05] Jeff: So that’s my, there’s my check-in. [00:11:07] Brett: Have you seen the, he’s an engineer. He’s super charismatic. I can’t remember his name. He made the glitter [00:11:13] Cory: Oh, like Mark Rober is, are you, is that [00:11:15] Christina: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:11:16] Cory: Who [00:11:16] Brett: Didn’t he? Was he the one who Yeah. The squirrel obstacle [00:11:20] Jeff: So good, so Yeah. Okay. I’ll, I’ll link that in the show notes for anyone who hasn’t seen it. [00:11:25] Brett: It is very entertaining. [00:11:29] Jeff: That’s awesome yeah, I, I am sorry that you’re having like, uh, uh, you know, the, this, it seems like the squirrel is winning your, your, your battle. I, I, I am sorry for that. [00:11:37] Jeff: so far. But the situation is fluid. [00:11:41] Cory: I just think it’s, I just think it’s sick that you have a workshop. That’s something that I aspire to for sure. Like [00:11:46] Jeff: It’s uh, [00:11:47] Cory: want that. [00:11:48] Jeff: it’s a lovely place to be. [00:11:50] Brett: I don’t, I don’t have a place for one. Or I would start, like, as I’m able to afford machinery, I would start building a workshop. I would [00:12:00] love to get into woodworking. Uh, I would love to get into metal working. Like I’m super [00:12:05] Jeff: Come up here, I’ll teach you how to weld. [00:12:08] Brett: I know how to weld. I know how to lathe. [00:12:10] Jeff: yeah. You welded in school, didn’t you? [00:12:12] Brett: yeah. Like I know how to do most of that stuff. [00:12:15] Brett: My, I’m a little rusty, [00:12:17] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:17] Brett: it. I just don’t have any access to the tools. Yep. Got it, got [00:12:22] Cory: teach me how to weld. I don’t know how [00:12:24] Jeff: Come on over. You’re seven hours away by what kind, what kinda welding do you like Jeff? [00:12:29] Jeff: Oh, I do. What is, what is known as the hot glue gun of welding, which is MIG welding. Uh, I would love to learn tig, but, um, I, I don’t have, yeah, it’s not, not my time. [00:12:40] Brett: I, uh, I find a settling torch welding to be very meditative. [00:12:46] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:47] Brett: and if you’ve never done it on heroin, let me tell you that is, [00:12:51] Jeff: I know. I haven’t tried that yet, [00:12:53] Brett: the most relaxed you’ll ever be. [00:12:56] Jeff: um, [00:12:56] Christina: Okay. I, I’m, I’m just gonna throw this out there for, for any of our, our past or future [00:13:00] advertisers, um, do not do heroin and, uh, and, and, and weld. Like, we’re not recommending that. [00:13:07] Brett: Eh, eh, [00:13:08] Jeff: but that’s like, I disagree. [00:13:10] Brett: I have, I have mult. I am, I have multiple art pieces around my house that, that beg to differ. [00:13:16] Jeff: I think when I think when one has an addiction, everything you do, you do with the addiction alongside, [00:13:21] Christina: I’m, I’m just, I’m, I’m just saying, I’m just saying. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t like this. [00:13:26] Jeff: this is the do not try at home. Warning [00:13:28] Brett: if it wasn’t obvious, I, uh, I have a history of drug addiction. [00:13:33] Cory: Okay. Yeah, I was, I was picking that up. [00:13:36] Jeff: that up, [00:13:37] Brett: You’re tracking with that. [00:13:38] Brett: All right, those writers, those writers don’t miss a thing. [00:13:43] Brett: so Christina, how are you? [00:13:45] Christina: I am doing pretty well. Um, I don’t have a huge update, I guess. Um, and I, and I don’t wanna talk, I don’t wanna get into the, the, the specifics, um, of, of, of anything. Christina’s New Job Experience [00:13:53] Christina: But, you know, I started a new job and, um, and it’s been going pretty well, but it has been a transition and it’s been, um, [00:14:00] it’s been a little bit difficult because. [00:14:02] Christina: My team is all located in other places, and so I feel sort of isolated from, you know, people because I, I have meetings and stuff and I get to, you know, meet people like over a video call, but I haven’t met anyone in person yet, um, except for a, a few of the folks that I worked with before, but I don’t work with them day in and day out, um, in the new job. [00:14:21] Christina: And so, um, but I had a, I had a nice meeting with my, with my manager this week. Um, I’m feeling, um, a little bit better about, about things. Um, but it’s just been sort of a process and so that’s just been kinda my general mental health for the last probably six weeks or so, is just like a lot of changes, a lot of adjustments, a lot of trying to figure out new systems, new ways of working, as well as new expectations and all of that. [00:14:45] Christina: Um, and then doing it in, uh, an environment where, you know, you aren’t, like physically with people, um, is, um, it’s challenging, but I mean, it’s not insurmountable or anything, but it’s, it’s, uh. It’s [00:15:00] different than the way I’ve, than the experiences I’ve had before. Like I’ve worked, you know, um, more remotely from my, uh, other team members, uh, frequently, but usually there were either more opportunities to get to know people like in a, uh, you know, non-work or even work context, or you at least had like one person that you knew like in real life, so you could, you know, kind of use that as a way to kind of, you know, bridge stuff. [00:15:26] Christina: Uh, this has been, uh, a little bit different. And so that’s, that’s been the thing that I’ve kind of been, uh, struggling with because, uh, and, and I, I have even greater empathy for people who like started new jobs in 2020 when everybody was, was completely, you know, isolated and, and remote because, I don’t know, uh. [00:15:44] Christina: I, I don’t think I would’ve been able to survive that if, especially if I wouldn’t have been able to go outside. Like, I don’t think that, that I would’ve been okay with that at all. But, uh, but no, but things are, things are improving and I, I like my manager a lot and I’m, you know, hopeful about kind of like where things are going is just a, a lot of [00:16:00] trying to sort out, okay, what are the things that I need to do? [00:16:03] Christina: What are the things I want to do? How do all these systems work? How can I influence getting to know and get to meet the right people? Because it is just a completely different, uh, world that I’m in from, you know, what I was used to before, which I, I, I knew the systems and the people really well, so it’s just been an adjustment. [00:16:22] Brett: Can I ask a personal question? Um, and tell me if I dig too deep. Um, ’cause this, this question could be a trigger for me. Um, but so when I’m in situations where I’m dealing with so many unknowns in like my professional life, in my personal life, I become very, uh, we’ll say inaccessible. Like I just don’t have room to be a good partner. [00:16:48] Brett: Um, and I end up leaning on my partner very heavily to like, help me regulate all the stress. How, how are you doing with all of these unknowns, [00:17:00] with all of this? Like, I, I mean, it’s stressful whether it’s like a rough situation or not. It’s stressful figuring all this out. How, how are you doing at home? [00:17:11] Christina: Um, I’m okay. I mean, I think that it, that things could, could be better, but I think things are okay. I think that I’m probably similar to you and that I just don’t have as much space to be able to give to other things. And so, uh, even not at home, just like my other relationships, frankly, have kind of fallen off a little bit. [00:17:28] Christina: Like some of them, you know, my more like surface like friendships, like, you know, the group chats are pinging like a thousand times a day, and that’s really helpful. But like anything more substantive, I don’t really have. Space for that at the moment. So, yeah, I mean, I think [00:17:42] Brett: Is your, is your partner forgiving about that? [00:17:44] Christina: Yeah, I think so. [00:17:45] Christina: I mean, I, but I, there’s also not really a, a, um, a choice in the matter, if that makes any [00:17:52] Brett: Sure, sure. That doesn’t, yeah, that doesn’t always mean it’s easy, but yeah. Okay. Thank you. Um, [00:18:00] all right, Corey, you’re, you are no longer the only one to go. [00:18:04] Cory: All right. Hell yeah. Thank you. Thank you for showing me the way. [00:18:08] Jeff: Oh yes, yes. Come along further. Now let us go to this room. [00:18:16] Cory: Uh, yeah. Corey’s Mental Health and Medication [00:18:17] Cory: So this month has been a maelstrom of events and responsibilities and travel, um, and the highest emotional highs and the lowest lows. I, um, I take, I take medication for bipolar. I, I I, I [00:18:43] Cory: feel to the club. [00:18:44] Cory: I, I feel weird about saying specific brand names because I feel like I’m advertising. But I will say that I took, I took antidepressants, various antidepressants for a long time, and none of them really felt like they were doing anything. [00:18:59] Cory: And, [00:19:00] uh, that taking just like a relatively low dose of a, of a, of a bipolar medication completely changed the game for me. Like I. I, I used to struggle a lot with suicidal ideation and just like, you know, the, the smallest things would send me into a pit of despair. Uh, and I’m doing a lot better with that. [00:19:20] Cory: The, uh, the problem is I’m very dependent on that medication, and so if I forget to take it for a day, like there will come apart, there will come a time in the next day where I will just completely crater and not know why for several hours and then be like, oh, oh, I see that, that happened to me a couple of days ago. [00:19:43] Cory: And it, it coincided with me trying to like, work on my next creative project and like ending up lying on the floor, being like, why am I even doing this? This is so fucked. I, like, I, why did I even try and do this in the first place? It’s broken, it’s gonna take me seven more years. And, [00:20:00] uh, and then, and then like, it wasn’t until like I had to go do something else, I had to go pick up my little brother. [00:20:05] Cory: Uh, and I was like driving on the way there and I was like. Oh, oh, I see what’s happening. [00:20:13] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:14] Christina: Yep. Yeah, I think we, I think we’ve all had those moments. Uh, like, uh, if, if you’re on something, especially if it has like a shorter half-life where you start to feel either the withdrawal effects or like the lack of the medicine working one or the other, and you’re like, oh, okay. Um, this is what’s going on. [00:20:30] Christina: Um, it, it’s not, not not to compare the two ’cause they’re different, but it is some similar, like, there will come a time like every month where I will be like going through something emotional or, or feeling a certain way and I’ll be like, oh, right, right, right. Okay. I’m on my period. That’s what this is. [00:20:45] Jeff: Mm. [00:20:46] Jeff: Yeah. is, it, I think it is similar. I think it’s ’cause it’s a, it, it, it takes a little bit for, for, for my conscious mind, certainly to catch up to whatever the sort of chemical state of my mind is. [00:20:57] Christina: Yes. [00:20:59] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, [00:20:59] Brett: I, [00:21:00] we don’t, we don’t have to mention names, but I will because it is generic. Uh, but I take Lamotrigine for bipolar and [00:21:09] Cory: do I. [00:21:09] Brett: there you go. [00:21:10] Jeff: that’s, that’s three of four of us. [00:21:13] Brett: and, [00:21:13] Jeff: Christina, we can send you some. [00:21:15] Brett: Our guest. [00:21:16] Christina: I’m [00:21:17] Cory: No, don’t take some, because, because it true, it’s true. That part of the problem is the withdrawal. Like I, I do feel weird that I’m like [00:21:23] Cory: fully addicted to it is. Yep. That’s where I was gonna go. ’cause our, our guest last week also takes Lamotrigine. So this is basically a Lamotrigine podcast at this point. Is this the moine, uh, corner but I, I will get, if I miss my dose of Lamotrigine, I will, it’ll take about eight hours, but I will get all skin crawly and it’ll feel like, it’ll feel like withdrawal and, and I’ll get crabby and cranky and then the mood swings will, like, I won’t regulate as well. [00:21:57] Brett: Like ups become real ups and [00:22:00] downs become real downs and Yeah. Like I have gone, it, it is, I have, there have been times I have not realized I missed a dose until the next dose, [00:22:09] Christina: Right. Be because you didn’t feel it. Um, I, I was on a, an on an antidepressant, um, uh, fl lie, Effexor, I guess would be the, um, uh, professional, uh, name or, or the commercial name. And I’m not a, I’m not on this anymore, so this is not a, a advertisement, but I was on it for like, the better part of 20 years. And, uh, it has an incredibly short half-life, like to, to the point that it’s a problem. [00:22:32] Christina: Like you will, you’ll feel the withdrawal like quick and, and it is, and it is a bad withdrawal. And so I got, I had to get very good about not forgetting my meds because it would be like four hours that you would start to, like, I would start to feel like. You know, like wanting to peel my skin off and, and like the, like the bitchiness would like come out like times 10 and it would be like, oh, okay. [00:22:53] Christina: To the point that actually that medicine wasn’t working for me anymore and I needed to get off of it. And like, it was a very [00:23:00] protracted process to get off of it because the withdrawal was like not great. But, uh, so, which is all to say like, everyone, like take your meds at the right schedule. Like don’t fuck up your body [00:23:10] Brett: this is, this is, this is a frequent topic for us. Well, and I. [00:23:13] Cory: Take your meds on the right schedule and the smallest amount that you can get away with [00:23:17] Christina: 1000%. Yeah, I agree. I agree. [00:23:20] Jeff: even pulling back from specifics, I think the, one of the hard things about, like I, you know, I started, I think my first experience with medication was around 2020, like that 2020 is what we’re gonna call it. Um, and I think that like what usually leads to, in my case, what leads to me being, you know, prescribed a medication is something that I start to realize is like. [00:23:45] Jeff: Really off, but maybe can be helped rather than just being this like static thing that’s part of me. And so then you get the medication and there’s a little bit of relief if it’s working. Um, and, and I think I let my guard down a little bit and I forget to sort of be witness to myself. And, and [00:24:00] usually then when I notice something similar to what you were saying, Corey is, it’s like, and, and Brett, it’s, it’s the point at which my skin is crawling. [00:24:07] Jeff: And, and then I’m like, oh my God, how did I miss this? You know? Um, and, and I just like think that that experience, I was diagnosed with bipolar in 2021. And, um, one thing that came out of that that was just wonderful is I, I learned a lot about red flags. I learned a lot about where I could trust myself, but more importantly where I could trust that I couldn’t trust myself. [00:24:31] Jeff: Um, which was painful at first, but then became. Kind of, I don’t know. It, it’s great. It’s like any, I, I look for those opportunities now inside of these experiences to be like, okay, what have I learned about myself and, and, and how can I hold that without, uh, without, you know, this context of I’m broken, right. [00:24:48] Jeff: Just kind of like, anyway, but the specific to the ultra ultra gene, if I am, if I’m 36 hours out or less from having taken one, I am a, I am a mess. It is a [00:25:00] very, very unpleasant experience. So let us all remember. Yeah. It’s scary. It’s scary. [00:25:05] Cory: to be dependent on something like [00:25:07] Jeff: Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. [00:25:09] Christina: we talk about that a lot too. Like, like there’s, there’s like a, like the, at least for me anyway, the, the, um, dichotomy between like knowing you need these things, uh, to function and to live. And then like, also be independent on these things where, you know, like, at least in my mind, like I, I, I have this stupid notion like, oh, I should be able to just control this myself. [00:25:30] Christina: And, and it’s like, no, but you actually can’t. Uh, that’s not how, um, the biology works. And, and that’s not how like, you know, like, like brain chemistry works. We can’t just will ourselves into these things. That’s, that’s, that’s not possible. Um, but at the same time, knowing it’s like, okay, there are these things that we put into our bodies that can have, uh, positive or negative, um, you know, impacts on how we act. [00:25:53] Christina: And that’s kind of a, that’s cool, but that’s also kind of fucked up too. You know. [00:25:58] Cory: yeah, yeah. I. [00:25:59] Brett: I am [00:26:00] demonstrating great restraint by not re by not making a heroin joke at this Oh, well, I was gonna [00:26:05] Christina: I was gonna say, I. [00:26:06] Cory: say something about heroin actually. [00:26:08] Jeff: Okay, well go. [00:26:10] Cory: I, I, I was, yeah, well, I, I have a complicated relationship with like the, the idea of substance dependency because my brother died of a heroin [00:26:18] Brett: oh my gosh. sorry to hear that. [00:26:21] Cory: Um, yeah. Yeah. It was a hell of a year. [00:26:25] Brett: Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m sorry if I’m making light of it. I, [00:26:28] Cory: no, I mean, that was, that was eight years of my life, but I, uh, I fortunately survived. I, uh, I can relate though. [00:26:36] Cory: I make jokes about it all the time. Not about my brother specifically, but about [00:26:40] Brett: Sure. [00:26:42] Cory: Um, so it’s not, it’s not a big deal. It does get me sometimes, but, um, especially ’cause there’s a lot of, heroin has showed up in a lot of weird ways in my life throughout, throughout time. But, um, yeah, I have a, I have a weird relationship to substance [00:27:00] dependency because of that. [00:27:01] Cory: Because, uh, you know, I don’t, I don’t wanna end up that same way. [00:27:07] Christina: Right. [00:27:08] Cory: Um, and the book, the book is actually partially dedicated to him too. I think. I think he, I think he really would’ve dug it. And there’s some stuff in the book about, you know, watching someone who’s close to you sort of not be able to help themselves in a way. [00:27:23] Jeff: Older brother or younger brother? [00:27:25] Cory: brother. Much older. Yeah. I a half brother. [00:27:28] Jeff: Okay. [00:27:28] Brett: Is your brother George, was your brother, George? [00:27:32] Cory: Uh, George. Oh no, George is my grandfather. [00:27:37] Brett: Oh, okay. Case. Case Wine Yeah. My grandfather also died in 2016. [00:27:43] Christina: Oh, I’m so [00:27:43] Jeff: Really? Oh my God. [00:27:45] Cory: a hell of a year actually. Yeah. I, one of my, my, my, my only regret in terms of that dedication page is it should be dedicated to three people. It should be dedicated to case George, uh, and my buddy from grad school, Ryan, who killed himself the same year.[00:28:00] [00:28:00] Cory: Um, he was an amazing writer and, uh, it was, yeah, it’s something that I still think about all the time, obviously, but yeah, it was just a, just a real wave of tragedy. [00:28:13] Jeff: Yeah. [00:28:14] Brett: We could also do a whole episode on suicidal ideation that could get really dark really fast. So we’re gonna avoid that since this is, this is technically part of your yeah. Yeah. Right, right. [00:28:26] Christina: I was gonna, I was, I was gonna say. Yeah. But, but, but you’re, you’re mentioning like at, at the top, like you’ve had some like the, you know, like highest highs and like lowest lows. Promoting the Novel [00:28:33] Christina: Um, and I don’t want you to get into the specifics of, of either of those, but can you talk a little bit about, since this is, um, this isn’t your first book, but this is your first, um, novel, like what has the, the process been in terms of promoting this and like sharing with, with, with the world and like, you know, um, uh, I guess like, uh, dealing with feedback on, on what you’ve obviously put a lot of, uh, time into and, and [00:28:53] Christina: have been wanting to do for a long time. [00:28:55] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, it’s, it’s been, it’s been super cool. It’s like [00:29:00] I, I, I had sort of picked as a semi arbitrary thing that I wanted to publish a novel by the time I was 35. I’m 35, [00:29:07] Jeff: Nice. [00:29:08] Cory: novel, so I feel like I, I achieved the thing that I wanted to achieve. Um, and you know, on, on the one hand, there’s a lot of like excitement and pride associated with that. [00:29:19] Cory: You know, when I look, when I like, reread the parts of the book now I’m like, oh, this is actually good. Like this book’s actually good. And that’s, that’s cool. After doubting myself so much. Um, and it’s cool, you know, I went, I, I was in, I was in New York for part of the book tour and, um, it was, it was great to like have some, have a bunch of old friends show up to the book thing. [00:29:40] Cory: And also people that I didn’t know who the publisher brought or whoever, I had a really cool talk at the book event there with, um, Maddie Lipsky, who’s a really talented like writer and, and comic artists and stuff. And she, she interviewed me for that. It was really cool getting to meet her that, you know, that left me with a lot of energy. [00:29:59] Cory: Uh, I [00:30:00] went straight from there to Michigan and did a book event in Michigan. Um, and four people showed up to that. [00:30:08] Jeff: Book events, huh? Am. [00:30:09] Cory: but one of them was someone who used to read my blog back in the day [00:30:14] Christina: That’s so [00:30:15] Cory: that like, made me so happy that it didn’t, like it didn’t matter at all. Like, and, and the audience for all that. [00:30:23] Cory: It was small. It was, it was like great audience. Everybody had, everybody had questions like it ruled. Um, and so, so I’ve had, I’ve had experiences like that. I’ve also had at least one book event where the room just felt dead, just absolutely dead. And I sort of felt like I, I sort of felt like a presenter in a pyramid scheme where I was like, every, you had to buy, you had to buy my book ’cause you’re here, but it doesn’t matter whether you read it, you just have to buy it. [00:30:50] Cory: Uh, and that that left me feeling really low, left me feeling like a fraud and a scoundrel. You know, so like, it’s, it’s really, really both ends of the [00:31:00] spectrum, especially because, you know, once you crest the hill, once I crest the hill, I just see the next hill. I don’t really like, feel as if I’ve achieved something anymore because I’ve already, because I’ve already achieved [00:31:13] Christina: You’ve already done it. So, so, so, so, so then you’re like, well, what’s the next thing? Right? Like, like, well, well, what’s the next goal? [00:31:18] Cory: yeah. Which is make makes it easy to feel like I’m right back where I started, [00:31:21] Christina: right. I was gonna say like, I hope you can take some time to like internalize and like be so proud of like, what you’ve accomplished and then like that you did like, set like that arbitrary goal, you know, publish your first novel by 35 and you did it right. [00:31:31] Christina: And you’re like, you know, you have like a big publisher and you’re like, your book is out there and being read and like, you know, people are are, you know, somebody who like read your blog, like showed, you know what I mean? Like, I hope that, like that, that, I hope you can internalize and, and like feel like pride in that. [00:31:45] Christina: ’cause I think that’s really incredible. [00:31:48] Cory: Well, thank you. Yeah. In, in my best moments. I do. [00:31:53] Brett: Yeah, I think we understand. [00:31:55] Christina: Um, so, so, so for our listeners, do you wanna give us a little bit of an overview, just kinda like the, the high [00:32:00] level of, of what your book is about and um. [00:32:03] Brett: Yeah. Let’s move into, let’s move into the two true and lie discussion. [00:32:07] Cory: Yeah, let’s talk about it. So Two Truths and a Lie is a cyberpunk noir story set in a nearish future Los Angeles that is partially underwater, where information has replaced money. People buy, sell, and trade memories, and it focuses on this nasty old man, this war veteran named or. Who kind of gets dragged into the middle of a high profile murder investigation when it turns out it has something to do with an old lover of his, and it kind of goes from there. [00:32:48] Cory: That’s the, that’s the book. How’s that? I’ve practiced that a [00:32:50] Christina: No, no, I, I was [00:32:52] Jeff: A. [00:32:52] Christina: I was gonna say, you did a great job. So, so I, I have not read the whole thing. Brett has read it twice. I have not read the whole thing, but, um, what, [00:33:00] what I have read it, it was interesting. Um, and, and the pitch is, is, is perfect. It was so interesting to me. Um, and even the way that you described, um, it just now, but like, from what I read, like it makes sense that you’ve worked on, on games because a lot of, and, and I, I mean this in a very positive way. [00:33:15] Christina: I wanna be clear. Like, when I read this, I was thinking, I was like, oh, you know what? I could see a great game being based on this sort of thing. Um, and, and, and to me that’s like actually like, uh, that, that, that’s me giving a compliment because that’s, I love adaptations. I love to things, see things like that. [00:33:31] Christina: But I, in my head, I was kind of envisioning, I was like, this could be like a really interesting narrative game in some regards. And, um, I, I am curious like. Inspiration and World-Building [00:33:40] Christina: What your inspiration was in terms of how you were going about kind of creating the world that this takes place in. ’cause it is new, near future and, and you know, what your process was in terms of coming up with like, what’s the, the technology that they’re using and, and what’s kind of what, what are the differences and, and the similarities between what we have and, and, um, [00:34:00] how, how, how did, uh, what was your process for, for coming up with that stuff? [00:34:04] Cory: well, I, I definitely take it as a compliment that it would, it would make a good game. I like games, obviously. I play a lot of games and I think of the, the writing of a book, at least as, as the playing of a game, [00:34:20] Jeff: Mm. [00:34:20] Cory: to some degree. I had a, I had a, an instructor who I really, uh, admired in graduate school who. [00:34:27] Cory: Said basically that in order to write to the end of a book, you have to construct a sort of game for yourself. You have to have some rules that allow you to play out and generate the novel because writing an entire book is like an impossible task to conceptualize, right? It’s like so many words and so many events and, and so much stuff. [00:34:52] Cory: It’s very hard to like hold in your head at once. But hu I think human beings in general, certainly [00:35:00] me in particular, are able to hold very complex game structures in their heads and understand all of the sort of weights and balances, uh, and, and systems involved in a game. And so I kind of play these little games with myself, um, or sometimes rope other people into playing these games with me. [00:35:21] Cory: So the original idea for the story came when I was in grad school and somebody brought in, I went, I went to art school. This is important for understanding this story. Uh, ’cause in one of my classes, one of the other students brought in, uh, a book that she had sewed out of $1 bills. And she was like, this shows how information has become our new currency. Uh, [00:35:51] Brett: totally an art school [00:35:52] Cory: yeah, it’s a very [00:35:52] Christina: totally is [00:35:53] Cory: project. Uh, and I, and I was like, oh, but what if actually though? Like, [00:36:00] what if for real? And so I started spinning out like, well, what would it actually take? And, and I’ve, I’ve always really liked noir A mystery Seemed like a really natural place to explore that kind of thing, right? [00:36:13] Cory: Because information is already so important in a mystery. And so I started trying to build this out and it was really difficult. To, to make it all line up because it’s a, it is, it is very different from how our world currently works in some ways. In some ways there’s a lot of overlap. But one of the things that I would do is I would talk to people about it, and I would tell them, like, I’ve got this worked out. [00:36:38] Cory: Here’s what I, here, here’s how it works. And they would very understandably ask me a lot of questions about it. That, and, and I would not know the answers to those questions, but I would act like I knew the answers to those questions and I would answer them. And by doing that enough times, I eventually sort of built out an understanding of how this world was supposed to work.[00:37:00] [00:37:00] Cory: And I built out the story by asking myself questions like that. Um, [00:37:04] Jeff: Is that what you mean when you say making it all line up? Just making sure it essentially makes sense and everything follows a thread. Every little piece [00:37:12] Cory: Yeah, I, I try to be very meticulous about that. I like, I. I don’t think that that’s a requirement to write a story. I don’t think everybody has to be really meticulous about it, but I, [00:37:24] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:37:24] Cory: I cannot be, I, I cannot allow myself to leave a, leave a loose thread or a plot hole. That kind of stuff really bothers me. [00:37:33] Cory: So, so, yeah, so like a lot of it was stitching up holes and patching things and bringing things together, which is tough because as, as you start, as I would start to revise something, if I changed one thing, then it, you know, changes something overweight in a different part of the fabric that I’ve gotta, like, bring into line, everything gets destabilized and then it’s gotta, gotta remake it all over again. [00:37:55] Jeff: Um, a friend of mine is, he is a author, a Raphael Johnson. He wrote a [00:38:00] great book called The Through, which I really recommend, but he had a theater background and, and so I’m, I’m obsessed with process and I could ask you questions about process all day. And like I said earlier, I’m gonna just ask a couple only, but he had this really great, I use this all the time in my own work. [00:38:14] Jeff: He had this, he has this great way of going over hi. His writing. When he is done, it’s like a theater person. He goes, I’m gonna do a lighting pass now I’m gonna do a wardrobe pass. I’m gonna do a sound pass. Right? Like, I’m gonna do all these passes, uh, settings pass. Um, so he is going through the book over and over with just that bit. [00:38:32] Jeff: Like it little different from making it line up, but just making sure that he’s created the world that is as kind of full as it is in his brain, but has gotten it to the page. You, you’re describing something that like fits into a category. Uh, with that for me, [00:38:44] Cory: Ian Fleming would do the same thing, uh, from what I understand, would write, write through the book, and just get the plot beats in place. And then the second pass was like, everyone’s like, what kind of watches is everyone’s wearing? [00:38:55] Cory: And like [00:38:56] Jeff: Very important. The Bond [00:38:57] Cory: and all of that, like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:39:00] Uh, there’s a, there’s a really great quote that I like from Walter Mosley, who’s a noir writer that I really admire. He wrote, uh, devil in a Blue Dress, I think is, [00:39:10] Christina: Great book or screenplay rather. Yeah. [00:39:13] Cory: and, uh, and, and he was answering the question, how do you know when a book is done? [00:39:19] Cory: How do you know when you’re, you’re done drafting? And he said, what I would do is I would write a draft and I would read it, I’d see what was wrong with it, and go back and fix it. And then I’d read it and I’d see what was wrong with it. And I’d go back and fix it. And then I’d read it again and I’d see what was wrong with it. [00:39:41] Cory: I’d have no idea how to fix it. And that’s how I knew I was done. And I was like that, that I, I hold onto a lot because I can be such a perfectionist about things. And at a certain point, I just have to be like, the problems that remain are beyond my ability to solve.[00:40:00] [00:40:00] Jeff: yeah, yeah. But you also have to, I mean, the resilience that always amazes me about people who go through and finish a novel is like, you just described this cycle, but I always wonder, okay, when you hit that point where you’re like, eh, there’s something wrong with it. That can be a, like an existential crisis, right? [00:40:16] Jeff: Like, but then somehow you lift yourself up and go, I’m doing another pass. It’s like, almost like it’s very masochistic. [00:40:23] Cory: yeah, yeah. It’s, you have to believe that there’s something at the end of that, right? Like you have to, and this, this happens in making games too. Making games is a similarly torturous process. It can be, [00:40:37] Jeff: With the extra layer of the studio. [00:40:40] Cory: yeah. Well, even if you’re making a game by yourself, like, uh, games are so complex and every game is different from every other game. [00:40:47] Cory: Even more so than every novel is different from, from any other novel. You’re very much building the plane as you’re flying the plane. But the, uh, the thing that helps with both of them, with any kind of creative project for me is to have [00:41:00] some spark somewhere of what this thing is about. Like William Gibson, I think once, once said that he would write the first line of his book and he would never change the first line after he had written the [00:41:13] Jeff: Oh [00:41:13] Cory: I can’t do that. Um, I, I have definitely changed the first line of all, everything that I’ve ever written, but there has to be something that doesn’t change. There has to be something that gives the thing its identity that to hold onto so that no matter how much it changes, no matter how many drafts there are, there’s a way to know that I’m making progress. [00:41:39] Jeff: yeah. [00:41:39] Brett: S speaking of Gibson, um, okay, so I read a lot of cyberpunk, um, and I read a lot of Gibson. And when I first started, uh, to truth and a lie, I immediately thought this is Gibson esque. And then I had to ask myself what that meant because. [00:42:00] These days, like current Gibson, I don’t even consider Gibson esque. Uh, when I say Gibson esque, I mean Mona Lisa overdrive. [00:42:10] Brett: I mean, like early days, I mean like way back to like 400 boys Bruce Sterling era stuff. Um, like that to me is like the, the, or what used to be called hard, hard sf like hard sci-fi. Um, and that like when I started two Truths and a lie, I was immediately imbued with this sense of the old school cyberpunk feel. [00:42:36] Brett: But it’s more developed, like once you get into it, it’s richer than old, old cyberpunk used to be. So I felt like you, you straddled the line between what I would consider quote unquote Gibson esque, um, and like a, a more heartfelt. Novel. So I guess the question would be like, how do you [00:43:00] see this falling into kind of the pantheon of cyberpunk literature? [00:43:05] Cory: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a good question and I definitely take it as a compliment to, to have it be described as Gibson esque, like definitely I have been inspired by the velocity. Gibson’s early writing, the way that his prose moves. One of those visceral experiences when I, that I was describing earlier when I was talking about how books made me feel was Mona Lisa Overdrive. [00:43:29] Cory: There’s a passage in it. I can’t even remember what the passage was. I just remember, I remember where I was sitting when I was reading it, and I remember like closing the book for a moment and just going like, because it just like had such energy. Um, but I think, you know, that for me was a starting point in terms of one of my influences and how my, my, my, my prose writing developed over time. [00:43:55] Cory: But it was very much a starting point for me because there are also things that I struggle [00:44:00] with, with Gibson’s early writing. Um, and I, I, I remain a huge fan of Gibson. I love, I I love some of his more recent work too. Like the peripheral I [00:44:07] Cory: find Absolutely. [00:44:09] Cory: Um, some of, some like neuro answer the first time that I picked it up. [00:44:14] Cory: I, I got like a couple chapters in and I put it back down because there is this paragraph where like, it’s like half in reality and half in a hologram, and you can’t really tell what’s going on because the, the pros is so dense. And I, I was like, I just can’t, I just can’t parse this. This is stressing me out a little bit. [00:44:33] Cory: And I, and I put it down, I came back to it, I think after I read Snow Crash. Um, [00:44:38] Brett: Yeah. Steven Stevenson’s a nice break from Gibson. [00:44:41] Cory: And I, I blew through. I love Stevenson too. Um, and I, and I, yeah, and I, and then I, and then I blew through Neuro Me and I kind of got it, uh, a little bit more. But yeah, I wanted, I wanted to preserve the vividness and the momentum of the language, um, and create more clarity, but I [00:45:00] also wanted to develop my own aesthetic. [00:45:03] Cory: You know, Gibson’s, Gibson’s writing is very much like that. Early writing comes out of like, right, isn’t it like eighties Toronto Street culture? [00:45:12] Brett: Yeah, [00:45:13] Cory: Um, and I don’t have any experience with eighties Toronto Street culture. So it very much comes out of like my aesthetic more and the people that I grew up with and the, and, and what grime meant to me growing up, because there’s a lot of grime in the book for sure. [00:45:28] Cory: Um, and then, but like, but, but again, like having that core of something to know what you’re working on, part of the core of it for me is what I think of as the core of cyberpunk. It’s not the chrome or the laser whips or whatever. It’s, uh, it’s the stories of people who can’t afford space travel, [00:45:49] Jeff: Oh, Right on. Right on. [00:45:51] Cory: That’s, I, I, that’s, that’s not original to me. I think Bruce Sterling wrote that in the introduction to Burning Chrome, but I, but it stuck with me, [00:46:00] um, because it’s like, it, this is the, what, what it is about is it’s, it’s working class science fiction, you know, like it’s, and, and, and that’s what I’ve tried to hold onto is like, it doesn’t have the same technology. [00:46:13] Cory: You know, one thing that’s really changed, I think in the way that we think about, um, cyberpunk is the concept of cyberspace. The Evolution of Cyberspace [00:46:20] Cory: Uh, because cyberspace is no longer a place the way that it was when, when, when Gibson was first writing, like the internet used to be a place that you went. [00:46:30] Jeff: Yeah. [00:46:31] Cory: and now the internet is just sort of this, this like sludgy mist that surrounds us at all times. [00:46:40] Cory: This sort of ever present fog, uh, that both reveals and obscures. And, uh, and so having it, having it be more of a layer, more of an ever present thing that really changes the whole like way that a, that a world works. And I think a lot of other things follow from that. And I think that’s, that’s part of, [00:47:00] part of what is going on in two truths and lies is that, you know, that, that that technical world has so merged with the physical world that people are just, you know, buying and selling and giving up and trading their memories. [00:47:10] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:47:47] Brett: la of like sidewalks and green spaces with a woman who was alive then, but didn’t have the technology to capture that memory at the time. And that memory is the [00:48:00] most valuable thing he can offer her, whereas it might not be worth anything to the next guy. But like he has, he has, and, and in the book or of, is dirt poor? [00:48:14] Brett: I mean, all things considered, uh, he’s, he’s barely surviving. Uh, he’s living at the bottom of society. Um, but he has a couple of memories that in the right context are super valuable. Economics of Memory [00:48:29] Brett: So how do you see, how do you see the economic impact of, of having, of memory versus what we consider currency right now? [00:48:42] Cory: Well, it, it, it, it definitely works differently than we’re used to. Money. Working money is traditionally fungible. Every dollar is the same as every other dollar. But also, you know, money is a really [00:49:00] elaborate fiction. Money. The, the, the, the idea in theory about money is that like I could go and turn it into gold if I really wanted to. [00:49:10] Cory: That hasn’t been true in a very, very [00:49:12] Cory: long time. Right now, now it’s just sort of like, well, why would you ever, you just trade the money? Um, but kind of the way that the information functions in the book is as, as a more directly backed currency, right? Each piece of currency can be traded. They can just be traded by file size if that’s what people wanna do. [00:49:31] Cory: A lot of the, a lot of the, the exchange takes place in the form of demographics ’cause they are pretty fungible. It’s just like a bunch of people’s software or, uh, soft drink preferences or whatever. And you, you, you trade those back and forth basically the way that you would trade fiat currency. Um, but all, all data has an end point where it’s uniquely val valuable. [00:49:53] Cory: Uh, which means that like there is not a separate vault. That all of the [00:50:00] money corresponds to the information is kind of its own vault. It carries its own vault with it, it carries its own value. Um, because, you know, eventually this piece of information is going to be genuinely useful to somebody, uh, which enables more of a, kind of an, a narco synthesist, uh, government a little bit going on in, in this, in this version of Los Angeles, where it doesn’t, there, there doesn’t need to be a central authority that says this information is valuable because the information is all valuable to somebody. [00:50:35] Brett: Sure. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that [00:50:38] Jeff: What, did you start with this book? Did you start with that? Did you start with that as this sort of rough idea, this kind of economy of memory? Or did you Yeah. Where did it start? [00:50:47] Cory: Um, the, yeah, the idea was I wanted information to be currency in some way. That was the kernel of the idea. And as, as, as I had to [00:51:00] actually make plot decisions, it gradually became clearer and clearer what that meant. Um, you know, originally it was a little bit more depersonalized, if I’m remembering correctly. [00:51:11] Cory: It was a little bit more like you had piles of data, but you, they weren’t necessarily your memories. And then over time, I started to realize like, part of the reason that we don’t pay money for most information now is because. It’s infinitely duplicatable. Uh, and so to have information function as currency, it has to, it has to be handled better than NFTs were handled where you could just right click and, and save the jpeg. [00:51:43] Cory: Like it has to actually be like a, like almost an object that only one person can possess. Uh, and so that’s kind of where the idea of, uh, taking and giving and removing memories came in. [00:51:57] Jeff: Yeah. Because when you pay someone a [00:52:00] memory in this world, you lose that memory [00:52:03] Cory: Right? [00:52:04] Brett: and it, it is not, it’s not duplicatable. Is that, I can’t remember. In, in the world of the book, is that a choice? Like, can memories be duplicated? [00:52:18] Cory: Uh, memories cannot be duplicated if they are, if they are minted to trade [00:52:26] Brett: Okay, so they are, they are, they are. The idea of NFTs, not the execution Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagine. Imagine if, [00:52:35] Brett: Right, In this economy, what would money laundering [00:52:39] Cory: oh, that’s, you’d have to read the book to find [00:52:41] Jeff: Oh, good. Good. Queer Love Story in Fiction [00:52:44] Brett: So another, another topic is the kind of queer love story at the center of this novel, and I read a lot of queer fiction and the stuff I appreciate about the best of queer [00:53:00] fiction is that it doesn’t have to recognize that it’s queer. Um, it just sees like this is, this is a man who loves another man. [00:53:09] Brett: This is, this is a man who can love either gender, all genders equally. Like it doesn’t have to be brought out as a, as a you. You don’t have to draw attention to it. It just is, um, this character isn’t gay. This character is just a character. Um, and ORs love interest in this story is another man. But it becomes clear in the reading that Orv is not impervious to the wiles of the, the feminine kind. [00:53:42] Brett: Um, he is, as far in my reading of it, he’s pansexual if bisexual, if not pansexual. Um, and I appreciate that. That’s never, uh, elucidated like that never needs to even be [00:54:00] stated. It just is. Um, and from our, our pre-show conversation, my interpretation, and I don’t need you to, to confirm or deny this, my interpretation is that you’re a straight man writing queer fiction. [00:54:17] Brett: Um, and you’re, you’re welcome to, you’re welcome to debate me or to correct me on that. But, um, I think it was a really well done queer love story. [00:54:30] Cory: Uh, well, I, not that I, not that I have to answer your question, but the way I would answer your, I, I, I’m, I’m still going to, uh. I am, I, I am a, I am a cis man, married to a cis woman who has loved men. That, that, that is how I would, how I would describe myself. Um, and or is or, or does not exactly one-to-one map to my own predilections, [00:55:00] but, or Yeah. [00:55:00] Cory: ’cause Aura is definitely a disaster. Pansexual. He, uh, [00:55:05] Brett: I like that. [00:55:07] Cory: uh, [00:55:07] Jeff: Did you create that? [00:55:09] Cory: no, [00:55:09] Jeff: Okay. This is not a term I’ve heard, and it’s an [00:55:11] Jeff: amazing I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard disaster bisexual. I’ve never, I, I don’t know that I’ve heard, but [00:55:17] Christina: was gonna say, I’ve, I’ve heard disaster buy Disaster pan though. I like, I I I [00:55:20] Cory: yeah. I feel like, I feel like it’s, I don’t, I don’t feel like that’s much of an innovation to say that, [00:55:25] Christina: but, but, but I like the riff anyway. I’m just, I’m just saying. I’m just, it’s, it’s a good riff. [00:55:29] Cory: Um, but yeah, so he, yeah, he, he loves who he loves and I think that, uh. [00:55:36] Cory: I kind of, I think I kind of took some inspiration from other noir for that. There’s a, there’s a Raymond Chandler book that I really love called, uh, farewell My Lovely. And you think of these private detectives as like, oh, they’re, they’re men’s men and they’re making out with all the women, and they’re, you know, and then, and then, and then they punch all the guys. [00:55:57] Cory: Uh, and [00:56:00] you know, Philip Marlow, for the most part is like that. He’s really kind of scornful and horny with all the women in the story at the same time. But there’s this beautiful moment where he like meets this dude on the docks, this, this, this gorgeous man with violet eyes. And, and he, he like gets this guy’s help to get him onto a boat. [00:56:22] Cory: And they spend a long time in the dark on this boat. [00:56:25] Jeff: Hmm. [00:56:25] Cory: He and he talks to the guy about how scared he is about this boat that he’s going on to, and the guy is like comforting him and trying to take care of him. And he, you know, he describes this guy, he keeps talking about his eyes and he keeps describing how he is the nicest man that he’s ever met. [00:56:41] Cory: And like, you know, and they touch and all of it. Like, and I don’t know, I, I really don’t know how intentional it’s, but it felt like it had to be intentional. You know what I mean? Um, and so there’s this weird, there’s this, not, not weird, but like very interesting interplay of these private [00:57:00] detectives who are very, very sort of isolated by their profession, isolated by some of the things that they’ve seen and experienced, uh, and don’t necessarily know how to describe themselves or how to relate to other people, how to be close to other people. [00:57:17] Cory: Sometimes find themselves being closest to people, uh, who. I don’t know who, who, who share something with them that they’re not even sure how to describe in themselves. Uh, and so I wanted ora to be, uh, complicated and fluid and, and tender more openly than, than like a 1950s more hero could be. [00:57:46] Brett: Yeah, I think you did a great job. Like it reads, it reads like great queer fiction to me. And I know in your, in your, uh, what do you call it, a soundbite synopsis that you [00:58:00] gave like queer didn’t come up. Um, and, and I feel like that’s not it. It, it’s not a focus of the novel, but I think it could sell that way. [00:58:10] Cory: Yeah. I mean, it has, you know, it has, it is, it is categorized, it’s been described that way. I feel a little bit uncomfortable describing it that way myself, because I am a cis man married to a cis woman, and so I don’t feel like, I feel like I don’t want to use that as a marketing crutch, even though it’s an element of the book. [00:58:29] Brett: I appreciate that. I [00:58:30] Cory: a, like, how, how do you do fellow kids kind of thing. But I just, I wanted to try and be, I wanted to give as accurate and genuine a depiction of, of love as I could. [00:58:41] Jeff: How do you do fellow disaster? Pansexuals. [00:58:43] Cory: Right. [00:58:47] Brett: Oh, that’s great. That’s awesome. Writing Dialogue Trees for Video Games [00:58:49] Jeff: Hey, wait, now I know, I know we’re running out the clock here, but, uh, I, I wanna ask you about, um, writing dialogue trees for video games. And, and [00:59:00] if you can, uh, describe what one is, it’s a little intuitive maybe to people, but describe what one is and describe about, uh, describe the challenges of that or the experience of that as opposed to writing dialogue in a novel [00:59:12] Cory: Oh God. quicker than that. [00:59:15] Cory: yeah, writing, writing dialogue trees is hard, uh, because you’re anticipating a bunch of different possible routes in the conversation, and it’s, it’s difficult to do that without diluting the effect of the conversation. One of the nice things about writing a linear conversation is you can pick the most dramatic, uh, responses to every, every moment in the conversation. [00:59:39] Cory: And when you’re writing a branching dialogue, if you want it to have the same impact, you need to have like three to five of the most, the most dramatic possible responses all prepared. And so it’s a lot of, it’s a lot of like holding a bunch of different possible versions of the conversation in your head at the same time. [00:59:56] Cory: Like, can players end up here from different directions [01:00:00] and will they have different information? And do I need to keep this somewhat vague so that it can work in both of the situations? You know, what are the gather points that I can use so that this doesn’t just become like an exponential mess that is like a million words for one, one-off conversation. [01:00:14] Cory: Uh, the tools are also important and usually kind of janky. They’re finally making some better branching dialogue tools. Uh, some I like more than [01:00:25] Jeff: What? What have you used and liked? I’ve tested them just as a creative experiment. [01:00:31] Cory: My favorite is that I’ve used is ankle. I haven’t gotten to use it much for work, but that’s something to use if you like. [01:00:40] Cory: Scripting generally, it’s like a scripting language, so, so you’re writing it out, um, in a sort of text editor. Other people, I think, prefer a more visual scripting language like Twine. Um, and there are a lot of visual scripting languages. The one that I use for work now, I think I can say [01:01:00] is, uh, OEI, it’s obsidian internal Dialogue Engine. [01:01:03] Cory: I don’t know if you have [01:01:04] Jeff: Oh, huh. [01:01:05] Cory: but, um, but it, uh, it, it is, it is like a node based system. You connect one node to another and you make a, make a web and that’s fine. Like, it’s, it’s decent for, for visualizing the conversation. Um, I think I prefer just because of my own predilections, I guess. [01:01:22] Cory: ’cause I like writing prose. I prefer to have it just written out as text. [01:01:26] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One more. Uh, uh, uh, when, when you do level design, which you, you did with red fall, um, I was asking, I, I had my, my son look through all of this, he gave me an interesting history of red fall that we probably don’t have to go [01:01:39] Cory: Yeah, we don’t have to go into [01:01:40] Jeff: painful. I don’t wanna, I, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna cause pain. [01:01:45] Jeff: Um, but what is level design and, and how, you know, as opposed to narrative design for people that aren’t like immersed in this. [01:01:52] Cory: Uh, well, arcane was a, uh, a really exceptional studio, rest in peace, [01:02:00] um, because it was a very much like level design driven studio. The way that I would describe it at the time was like, there are a lot of people at a game studio whose job is to make pizza toppings, uh, make like really delicious pizza toppings, uh, or to make the, make the crust of the pizza, to make the sauce of pizza, to make the cheese and everything. [01:02:26] Cory: I, as a level designer would assemble the pizza. Uh, I wouldn’t even put it in the oven. I’d just assemble the pizza. Uh. QA cooks the pizza and serves the pizza. But, um, yeah, level designer takes all of the beautiful things that everyone made and arranges them into hopefully pleasing pattern. [01:02:46] Jeff: That is a lovely way to describe it, huh? Thank you for that. [01:02:50] Cory: Yeah. [01:02:51] Brett: Can we, before Jeff has to go in 10 minutes, um, can we talk quickly about tools, uh, that you [01:03:00] used, uh, for the actual [01:03:02] Jeff: Yes. And I have, I have more time now, so I, [01:03:04] Cory: Oh, [01:03:04] Brett: Oh, okay. Tools for Writing and Productivity [01:03:06] Brett: So yeah, what, what platforms do you write on? What tools do you use? How do what, what all goes into bringing your novels together? [01:03:16] Cory: I, uh, discovered partway through the process of writing two truths and a lie, a tool that I really like. I use Scrivener. [01:03:26] Brett: Yes. I was really hoping you were gonna [01:03:29] Jeff: so [01:03:29] Christina: I was too. I was too, [01:03:32] Cory: I do have some problems with Scrivener. Um, the fact, the fact that like, you can’t select text from like multiple sections at once. I, I find irritating. Like little, little, little irritating [01:03:44] Christina: The, the, the, the sync is bullshit. Can we just, can we all admit that, that, that their syncing stuff [01:03:49] Jeff: I haven’t used it in a while. It was rough in the past. [01:03:52] Cory: Oh yeah. I never, I [01:03:53] Christina: Don’t do it. Is is basically what they even tell you. They’re like, yeah, Google Drive, it’ll probably break. Dropbox is better. Don’t use [01:04:00] Box under any circumstances. [01:04:02] Christina: iCloud is not a thing, but like if you’re ever wanting, at least for me, if I ever wanna write something like on my iPad, and then I wanna access the same thing, I’m like, are you fucking serious? Anyway, that’s my only gripe with Scrivener, [01:04:12] Cory: yeah, I, I, I just use it on one computer and straight up, but I will look, I could, I could, I could talk shit about all the little details, but I know all the little shitty details because I use it so much [01:04:22] Christina: Right, exactly. [01:04:23] Cory: it has a lot of functionality that I, that I can’t get anywhere else. [01:04:27] Cory: Being able to rearrange, being able to rearrange chapters and sections. Um, being able to, the, the, the feature that I use, maybe the most other than that is, uh, taking snapshots of, uh, of text, uh, before I rip out a bunch of it and change it. And I, I almost never actually use the snapshots that I [01:04:48] Jeff: But knowing it’s there, [01:04:49] Cory: Exactly. It allows me to do the messy work and [01:04:52] Cory: not I am like that [01:04:53] Brett: with Git for sure. [01:04:54] Cory: that I, yeah. That I’m gonna be like, I’m gonna be like with my guts all the way up inside the, or my [01:05:00] hands, all the way up inside the guts of the cow and then be like, oh no, oh, I shouldn’t have done this. Now, [01:05:06] Jeff: all been there, Corey. We’ve all been there with the cow. I [01:05:09] Cory: yeah. [01:05:09] Cory: With the cow, we’ve all, yeah, whos amongst us. Uh, but, and then, and then the third feature that I, that I, that I love about it, that really got me through. I have a, I have another manuscript that I’m, that I’m polishing up right now. Um, and I don’t have a lot of time to write because I have my day job. So in order to get through the first draft of this newer manuscript, I was like, okay, I am gonna write 500 words a day, which is gonna give, which, which if I do that five days a week and in no time, I’m gonna have 70,000 words, which is what I’m trying to hit. [01:05:46] Cory: Um, yeah, I, I, I feel like that was like three or four months or something of, of writing. I don’t know. You can, you can do the math. I’m done doing the math. But, uh, but I basically, I just put all of those there. There’s like a [01:06:00] writing target tool in Scrivener, and I put all of those numbers into the writing target tool and it would just be a little window every time, every time I logged on and I didn’t have to think about it, I could see a little progress bar fill up and it felt really good. [01:06:12] Cory: And it got me through, uh, to the end of the first draft, which is the, the first major hurdle of, uh, [01:06:20] Jeff: Okay. Here’s a question. Uh, I, I’m trying to picture, I’m imagining your Scrivener uh, uh, set up right now. And so you’ve got, you’ve got your book, you’ve got it up in the, you know, you’re in the left hand column. You, you start at the top, you’re working your way down. You see the chapters, but then there’s like the dumping ground. [01:06:35] Jeff: Um, where you can have all kinds of shit. What kind of, like, did you have reference material in there? Is that where some of the, you know, older versions lived? [01:06:43] Cory: Um, well, the oldest versions of two treats in the lie were just written in, uh, open office, uh, which has its own problems, especially with loading large files. Uh, as much as I, as much as I love it, [01:06:57] Christina: Corey, are, are, are, are I was gonna say are, are, [01:07:00] are, are, are you a Linux on the desktop user [01:07:01] Jeff: I held back. [01:07:02] Cory: No, I, no, I’m, I’m not. I have, I have, I have, I have, unfortunately, I have windows on all my machines. Uh, I try and use Microsoft products as little as possible, but I’m not quite well versed in computers enough to go without, entirely. [01:07:17] Jeff: He says open office. Every one of our brains goes, Hmm. Linux [01:07:20] Christina: Hmm. I was gonna Exactly [01:07:22] Cory: just, it’s just, it, it’s, it’s free. This is the [01:07:26] Christina: Fair enough. Fair enough. [01:07:27] Cory: Um, but yeah, I was doing it all in open office. It, it, it was, it was a little bit, it was a little bit rough. So the, the old versions are all like ODT files and then, and then, yeah, like pieces that I cut out would go in that bottom section. [01:07:44] Cory: But the other thing that would go in that bottom section is sometimes I just get stuck and I still need to do my writing for the day. And so I’ll just like open up a document in that note section and I’ll just like, freak out. I’ll just be like, oh, what am I [01:08:00] doing? Oh, I don’t know what this problem is. [01:08:01] Cory: I’m gonna try and like, let’s try and, you know, lay out at least the bounds of the problem so that I can start trying to solve it. And like that generally is pretty effective for me. [01:08:10] Jeff: That’s great. Nice. Um, do you ever use, this is totally random, but have you ever heard, oh, you’re not a Mac user, you’re a Windows user? And so I’ll tell you, there’s this app called Silver, um, which is a, it’s a text-based calculator [01:08:28] Christina: Yeah, it’s really good. [01:08:29] Brett: And, and when I’m programming and I just get my, like, stuck on a calculation, I’ll go into Silver and I’ll just write out like what’s frustrating me. [01:08:42] Brett: And like, by putting it into words and seeing it together, silver can extract from that a calculation Hmm. and. And like, give me the answer. And in the process I’ll figure out the formula I need for the [01:09:00] function to come up with the answer I desire. Um, is it’s magic. It’s [01:09:06] Jeff: is magic. [01:09:08] Brett: But I imagine that’s the same as like opening up, uh, a scratch document and Scrivener and writing, writing that you have a problem and writing out the aspects of the problem and what it is you’re trying to solve. [01:09:23] Brett: And in the process, coming out with potentially an answer for the problem. [01:09:29] Cory: Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s definitely, that’s definitely a part of the process. [01:09:34] Jeff: I keep two documents open when I’m working on projects. One is a scratch pad, which is just to dump in whatever you want. And the other one is called distraction dump. So that every idea that comes that I want to go look up or whatever it is I just put there, I know it’s there. I can go like explore that thing that has nothing to do with what I’m doing later. [01:09:51] Jeff: And uh, and the amazing thing is I never do it. [01:09:53] Cory: Yeah. gonna say, do you ever, do you [01:09:55] Jeff: No. But it lets me keep going. It lets me keep going. Right. Like it’s amazing. [01:09:59] Cory: I, [01:10:00] I will say the other, the other tool that I use where my actual structured note taking is, is I use obsidian [01:10:06] Jeff: Yeah. I love obsidian. [01:10:08] Christina: Sitting is the best. [01:10:09] Cory: I [01:10:10] Jeff: I finally went full in about two months ago and it stuck this time. [01:10:14] Cory: I don’t actually use any of the advanced features of it, like I don’t link internally or anything. [01:10:19] Cory: I just, I just have a bunch of files in there. I use it for work too, [01:10:23] Christina: I do too. I do too. It, it’s one of the few tools that’s like allowed, like, on our corporate systems, um, which are, are pretty, uh, stringent and, um, and, and I, I can’t access my, my corporate accounts on my personal devices. Um, and so, um, it, that does make it a little bit difficult for work stuff. I have to use a different, a, a special version of Google Drive, um, to, to sync things. [01:10:45] Christina: But the fact that I can like, use like a familiar tool is really nice, even if I can’t access my, my stuff anywhere else. But that’s okay. ’cause it’s work stuff. But yeah, it’s nice to at least be able to use like a [01:10:56] Brett: I love that all the tools you’re mentioning [01:11:00] are cross platform. So you’re, you’re, you’re a Windows user talking to a bunch of Mac users and we’ve all used all the apps you’re [01:11:07] Brett: talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I, I, I, I wanna believe that we’re coming back out the other side of the era of, of like jealously guarded proprietary platforms. [01:11:21] Christina: Yeah. know if that’s true. [01:11:22] Christina: I don’t think we are, but I feel like the web has still sort of like, despite everybody trying to kill it is still kind of, you know what I mean? Like [01:11:32] Cory: more what I mean. I don’t mean that those platforms aren’t gonna continue to exist and exert their influence. I think that there’s just starting to be a growing appreciation again for having control over your own shit. [01:11:42] Brett: Yeah. Okay. [01:11:43] Christina: No, I agree with that. I agree with that. And, and I, I feel like, like cross platform or at least like not being as, as, as you said, like jealously, like guarding, you know, for one or the other. Um. It is getting better. Uh, EE even with games, right? With things like the steam deck and, and stuff like that. [01:11:59] Christina: [01:12:00] Making it at least more accessible to access games on, [01:12:03] Brett: seam deck? What is [01:12:05] Jeff: Steam deck. [01:12:05] Brett: Oh, I think [01:12:06] Christina: deck. Sorry. Yeah. No, I, that was my [01:12:08] Brett: gotcha. Okay. Um, speaking of tools, [01:12:12] Jeff: Nice [01:12:12] Brett: you guys, would you guys like to do a GrAPPtitude? [01:12:16] Jeff: Hell yes. [01:12:18] Brett: Corey you down for a gude? Do [01:12:20] Jeff: Corey’s like, I’ve been doing gude for 10 minutes. [01:12:22] Cory: feel like, yeah. [01:12:24] Brett: Yeah. And, and, and if Scrivener is your Gude, we’re good. Um, I, I’ll, I’ll kick it off my pick for the week, and I cannot remember if I’ve mentioned this before, um, but there’s a tool called Sendi. [01:12:39] Brett: It is a PHP server based platform that is an alternative to MailChimp [01:12:45] Christina: Yes. [01:12:46] Brett: I think, 60 bucks one time fee. You get your own mail list server that uses Amazon’s email service. Uh, so for about a dollar, you can send out [01:13:00] thousands of emails to your list. Uh, it can keep track of your email, your mailing list. [01:13:07] Brett: Uh, so if you’re a blogger or a content producer that wants to keep a mailing list where you have close contact with your. Fans, patrons, viewers, um, send, makes it like the, doing the same thing on MailChimp. In my experience, like the, the Envy alt mailing list, the Envy Ultra mailing list has, uh, about 13,000 subscribers. [01:13:37] Brett: And it got to a point where if I wanted to send an email out to all of the people on the list, it would cost me a hundred bucks. And it, it got, like, it got to the point where I just couldn’t afford to do it anymore. Given NV Ultras very extended development period, um, and complete lack of [01:14:00] income. Um, so [01:14:01] Jeff: unrelated. [01:14:04] Brett: And now with Cindy, I don’t have to worry about it for a buck. I can email everyone on that list and as I develop my own mailing list for like Brett secher.com, um, which is a significantly smaller mailing list. But even as such, I can for pennies email everybody. So I, anyone who has a mailing list of anything over a hundred people, Cindy is, uh, an amazing tool. [01:14:37] Jeff: Awesome. [01:14:38] Christina: Uh, it’s funny, I went to their website, um, ’cause I, it was the tool that I thought there, there are a couple of these like this, but I think this is the one that, um, that gets like the, the best, uh, reviews in terms of user interface. Um, and uh, like Brett, you’re right there, like on their homepage. Like one of [01:14:52] Brett: Am I really? [01:14:53] Christina: Yeah. One of your tweets is like right there. Or like as like a, it’s funny because our friend cable, uh, Sasser is, is on there too. And our friend John Gru [01:15:00] were like, a lot of our people, like, I’m looking at their thing, but if I scroll down, I was like, oh, yep. I was like, there you go, Brett Terpstra. [01:15:06] Christina: Cool. [01:15:07] Jeff: In the pocket. A big mailing list. [01:15:09] Brett: And, and it has a good API so you can automate, like I create, when I, when I email my Brett tur.com mailing list, I write, uh, an email in markdown with a couple of YAML headers with like, uh, email subject line and send date. And then I run it through a script and it just sends it out automatically to whatever lists I need. [01:15:36] Brett: Um, so yeah, that’s it. I’m done. [01:15:39] Christina: That’s [01:15:39] Jeff: Awesome. Christina, what do you got? [01:15:42] Christina: Okay, so I was actually, it was funny because before we started about this, I was hoping that we would get to talk about tools ’cause that’d be like a good gratitude thing. And Scribner was going to be a thing that I chose, but I’m not gonna choose that now. ’cause we already talked about our, our love of Scrivener. [01:15:55] Christina: So, and, and Scribner’s. Great. Um, uh, and it is available on, on [01:16:00] Mac, windows and, and iOS, maybe Android. I have no idea. I don’t use Android. But, um, [01:16:04] Cory: Worth the price [01:16:05] Christina: definitely worth a price. Not very expensive, but like, it’s like 60 bucks or something. And like, I, I think it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a good app. Um, and, and any of my criticisms about it are because I really like it. [01:16:16] Christina: Um, I really like, also like, it’s, it’s corkboard like mode. I, I don’t know, just in terms of thinking stuff out, like I think it’s a, it’s a really good tool. But, uh, no, my pick, this is gonna be nerdier, so I don’t, I can’t remember if we’ve talked about this or not, so. I don’t have a problem with the command line. [01:16:31] Christina: Um, but, um, I was, uh, you know, like there’s a, a cool home brew gooey app called Cork. I dunno if we’ve talked about it. Um, it is, you can compile yourself and build it for Xcode. So Home Brew, um, uh, Cory is a package manager for, um, Mac Os. Um, the, the Windows equivalent is called Wing Get, and it’s actually pretty great. [01:16:51] Christina: But, um, basically a way to easily install software, um, if you don’t want to have to go to websites or, or other things. [01:17:00] And, um, uh, or, or if you wanna get things that, that might not be installed in a, in a traditional way. Um, but Cork is an app that, um, Are you saying cork? Or? Cork? [01:17:10] Christina: Cork, CORK. [01:17:13] Brett: Oh, okay. [01:17:14] Jeff: Not taking us back. [01:17:15] Christina: Um, uh, so it, it’s uh, like, like, like the whole thing is that like if, if, if it’s home brew is, you know, having, um, I guess, uh, casks and, and is all about like the brewing, um, idea then like cork is, is I guess, uh, taking that same kind of metaphor, but it, it, it’s, uh, the, the website is Cork mac.app, but basically it’s just a, a really nice gooey, um, app for home brew and I really like it and it wasn’t that expensive, but like I said, it is completely open source. [01:17:46] Christina: So if you wanna compile it yourself, you can, but I really like it. Yeah, [01:17:51] Brett: you. You can also in store cork with home brew. So [01:17:55] Christina: Yeah, you can [01:17:56] Brett: just brew and sell cork and you’re good. [01:17:58] Christina: yep, exactly. And if you like [01:18:00] it, then yeah, you, you can, you can pay for it. It’s like 25 euros or something, or pounds, like through their website and [01:18:06] Jeff: In Seattle, they use Euros. [01:18:07] Christina: Well, no. Well, well, the, well, the developer is, the developer is, is, is, uh, is, is is British, but like, uh, but no, it’s, it’s, it’s really cool. [01:18:14] Christina: ’cause you can also, like, you can update packages like from like the menu bar if you don’t wanna have it open. And, um, you can like access basically all the home brew features that you would otherwise have to maybe deal with the command line for. Anyway. That’s my, that’s my pick this week is cork. [01:18:28] Brett: Very [01:18:29] Jeff: Awesome, awesome. I’ve been installing Homebrew stuff sometimes through Raycast lately, which is [01:18:36] Christina: Oh yeah. No, I love, I I love that inter, that inter, the raycast integration is really good too. Yeah. [01:18:40] Jeff: yeah, in the end, I always prefer just going back to the command line. I don’t know what it is, [01:18:44] Christina: Yeah. Um, I, I, I will say, while, while you mentioned Raycast real quick, just for the Windows users out there, um, there’s a free, um, open source project that Microsoft actually runs, but they’re really good people called, uh, power Toys. And Power Toys Run is their version of like raycast or [01:19:00] Spotlight or whatever. [01:19:00] Christina: And I, I know that team really well, and, and they’re fantastic. And so, um, they’re actually even building some stuff in to do some solver like stuff in terms of calculation things, in terms of being able to use natural language. So power Toys is power toys is, I, I, we’ve mentioned that before, but I’d give that another shout out for anybody on Windows. [01:19:19] Jeff: Nice, nice. Well, I could go and then Cory, if you still have one, you could, it could be a Cory GrAPPtitude sandwich. I. [01:19:27] Cory: Okay. [01:19:29] Jeff: Um, so I am just a, like, slight context, uh, but I’ll be brief about it. Um, one, so I work in, in my work, I work with interviews all the time. Um, I do interviews. I, I work with other people’s interviews on specific topics. [01:19:42] Jeff: I’m a researcher and a kind of program evaluator. So right now I have a hundreds of hours of interviews with, with foster youth. I have, um, many, many hours of interviews with young people who have been in the juvenile justice system. I have interviews I’ve been doing with agronomists, um, and for [01:20:00] years as I’ve worked with interviews, first as a journalist and now doing what I’m doing now, when I could, what I would do is I would pay somebody to transcribe and I’d pay somebody different to read the transcript along with the audio and correct it. [01:20:12] Jeff: Always someone different. And when, um, when AI came along, um, I’ve been, more than a year now, I’ve been playing, trying to get to what felt like a really, a really like. As predictable, as is realistic, um, workflow to, to be sure that some of the jargon and, and some of the, you know, dialect stuff, anything like that is being caught. [01:20:36] Jeff: And so that I can, before I’m even reading through a transcript, I can get it to as good a place as I can. And ideally as good a place as it would’ve been with a second person, which was still imperfect, um, you could have maybe done a third and then you would’ve had it perfect. Um, and so I had, my pick is actually Notebook l lm, um, so I’ve been using Claude Chatty, GPT I’ve, [01:21:00] I’ve messed with so much of this, actually was on the phone with Merlin yesterday just learning his workflow because I’m trying to, trying to like get this workflow just right and I just had this kind of breakthrough. [01:21:09] Jeff: And I, and I, the reason I select Notebook LM is that one thing that. Chat GPT is really, really bad at or good at, depending on how you look at it, is verbatim quotes. If I were to give it a transcript and say, even just say, do you know what a verbatim quote is? Start there, give me an example. Three examples of verbatim quotes. [01:21:28] Jeff: Okay, if you win that one, then I say, now I want five verbatim quotes on this topic. Whatever. Right? Um, always making shit up. Always, always, always. No matter how much I like banged up against it notebook LM is amazing because it will give me verbatim quotes with a footnote that I can hover over and see exactly the point in the transcript it pulled it from, and so that I can be sure right away ’cause to be clear to anybody who might be in the field and worrying. [01:21:54] Jeff: I don’t use quotes just because chat GPT gave them to me. I go and I find them and [01:22:00] that’s how I know it’s making them up. Um, and, and Notebook. LM has been great and what I’ve been doing, I. Which I’ve tried elsewhere, but it works better with them is I just feed it all these documents that are in the relevant area, that have all the various jargon, terms, whatever it is, frameworks, all that stuff. [01:22:16] Jeff: And I’m able to say, Hey, reference this stuff and, and transcribe this and then clean it using that, you know, that those reference materials and, and I still end up using a combination of that and Claude both are just really good, but Notebook, lm, which I had tried early, had set aside, but they’ve now added some features, including just a huge, you know, a very generous limit to how much context documents you can give it just so generous, [01:22:42] Christina: Yeah, no, I, I, I do know. So, so, so I, because I know my team does not work on notebook L, but it uses the underlying like, uh, Gemini stuff. Um, and so, um, uh, yeah, that, that is an important thing to note. You mentioned about the context, like that is one of the really good things is you can upload like. Like [01:23:00] hundreds and hundreds of pages worth of stuff. [01:23:02] Christina: Um, and what’s nice about that is that especially if for what you’re doing, like transcripts and whatnot, like you don’t have to, like, it will be able to kind of keep that in. Its in its memory right then and there not having, so you don’t have to do like, separate rag stuff if you’re wanting to get specific things, you can just, you know, uh, one shot all of your, you know, files or, or, or transcripts or whatever and, and, and ask questions about it, which is really [01:23:25] Jeff: yeah, yeah. It’s amazing. And it’s become part of the stack because look, I have four pinned tabs in my browser all the time. Notebook, lm, Claude Gemini, and ChatGPT PT because at this point in the development of all this stuff, trying to get to where you want to get usually involves kind of chaining some of [01:23:42] Christina: Fully agree. [01:23:44] Jeff: Um, so anyway, I, I really have appreciated coming back to Notebook lm and being like, this is now exactly what I need. [01:23:50] Christina: That’s awesome. That that’s great. And if you have for, uh, further feedback, let me know and I’ll, I’ll get it to the right people. But, um, uh, yeah, so, uh, and, uh, Jim and I has a good, uh, YouTube [01:24:00] support now too, both in the consumer app and in the AI studio thing. So if you give it like a link, it can like, go through the transcript of like what’s, you know, in that link or give you a summary or give you, you know, like timestamps and stuff. [01:24:12] Christina: Um, and I think it works for private stuff too. I’m not, I’m not sure. So that’s, that’s something to think [01:24:17] Jeff: here. Here’s the feedback. Let me fucking change the word spacing. The line spacing and the fonts. ’cause the default sucks and you can’t change it at all. That’s my own. You go to Claude and it’s beautiful, right? [01:24:28] Christina: No, that’s really good feedback. I will, I will, I [01:24:30] Jeff: very ugly. Corey in Corey, in case you didn’t pick it up from context. Christina’s new job is that Google. [01:24:37] Cory: Oh, cool. Congrats. [01:24:40] Christina: Oh, thanks. [01:24:40] Jeff: Ask her anything and she can answer. She’ll just answer with AI first. [01:24:44] Christina: I, I, and you ask me anything and I can be like, dunno if I can answer that. [01:24:49] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah. [01:24:51] Jeff: All right, Corey, take us home all. [01:24:53] Cory: Well, I, I will, I will say first I, uh, one thing that I would’ve liked to di to discuss a little bit, unfortunately we’re gonna be out of [01:25:00] time, but I would’ve liked to talk about, uh, the, the way that AI shows up in, in two truths and a lie. Also, because I would’ve liked to talk to you guys. [01:25:07] Cory: ’cause you have a very, like, practical on the ground understanding of ai. Which, [01:25:12] Brett: Oh, now I really regret we didn’t get to that. [01:25:15] Cory: oh yeah, no, what it, it’s fine. Just, just have me on again. [01:25:19] Christina: yeah. We’ll have you on again actually, genuinely we’d love to have you on. [01:25:22] Brett: would you, [01:25:22] Cory: yeah. Yeah, I’d come back. I, like I said, I like talking to people, so Yeah. Bring me back. [01:25:26] Jeff: We’ll cut you at the end of your end of your promotional [01:25:28] Brett: right. Let’s do a part two. [01:25:30] Cory: There it is. No, it’s so cute that you think the promotional period ever [01:25:34] Jeff: No, that’s true. That’s true. Sorry. That’s my first day. [01:25:41] Cory: uh, as far I, I’ll I’ll, I I, I was like, I was like frantically looking through apps on my phone, trying to figure out which one gave me a hit of [01:25:49] Jeff: It’s what we all do at this point. [01:25:51] Cory: yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:25:52] Christina: literally that, that you just, you just described how gratitude works on this show. [01:25:55] Cory: yeah, yeah. Hell yeah. So, uh, the one, the one that finally [01:26:00] stuck out for me is I went, I went to the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco last week, and I’m so tired, but it was very fun. The Importance of Business Cards [01:26:08] Cory: But on the way there, I realized that once again, I had forgotten to print out business cards. Ordinarily what I do is I just get nice watercolor paper, cut it into the shape of a business card, and write my business cards by hand. Um, [01:26:24] Christina: really cool. [01:26:24] Cory: find, people find it very striking, and [01:26:26] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say like, that’s one of those things where like, you know, it’s, it’s like the reverse American psycho thing where you’re like, actually, like having, this is the most impressive part. Like this is the biggest flex to have this really pretty handwritten card versus my perfectly lly, you know, print red on, on, on, you know, [01:26:43] Cory: think my handwriting is nice. So it, it, it, it works. It also, like people say, to give out your business cards like candy, I, I would rather be thoughtful about who I give my business cards to, but this year I didn’t have the paper on hand, or at least I couldn’t find it. And so I reached for another option and I [01:27:00] ended up with this app called Blink with A-Q-B-L-I-N-Q. [01:27:05] Brett: have seen this. [01:27:06] Cory: and it makes, it makes a business card. It lets you make a little business card and then you can, and then it gives you a widget too, where you can put a, uh, a Q QR code on some, somewhere on your phone. So I just had like a separate pane on my phone that was just the QR code. And so I would unlock my phone, go to that thing, people could scan it, it would take them to my business card, and I could put whatever information on it. [01:27:28] Cory: I could make it look nice. And it wasn’t just a link to my LinkedIn, which as much as it’s fine to connect with people on LinkedIn, I, I am trying to create as much of a, like, network of influence outside of commercially top-down controlled platforms as I can. Um, I, you know, I wanna have people’s emails. I wanna, I want, I, I, I already, like, I already get the maximum number of spend calls possible, so I don’t really care about people [01:28:00] having my phone number. [01:28:01] Cory: Um, so, so like, I wanna, I wanna be in direct contact with people. This allows me to give out direct contact information and get back direct contact information too. ’cause when people scan it, they get a little button to download my contacts, like, and just like, you know, get the, whatever the, the, the contact file is on your Yeah, yeah. [01:28:21] Cory: You get a V card, uh, instantly and then it gives, and then it prompts you to put your information back in and then it sends me an email. With whatever contact information [01:28:31] Christina: Oh, that’s awesome. Oh, it also, it also looks like they support, um, um, like Apple Wallet and, and Google Wallet, which that’s really cool. So you can share this as like a, a, a wallet item. That’s a, because I’ve actually, I’ve wanted to do that before for various things. That’s really, really cool. [01:28:45] Cory: Yeah. It felt, it felt very easy. It, you know, it took me like 10 minutes to set up and it immediately ended my panic about business cards. So like, that’s why when I was scrolling through my apps, I was like, oh, this one actually did me a real solid recently. [01:28:57] Christina: That’s awesome. That’s fantastic. Yeah. That’s [01:28:59] Brett: [01:29:00] I would, I would, uh, tack on, uh, last time I went to a conference, instead of printing business cards, I developed a QR code that I, that downloaded my V card and I made it into my iPhone’s wallpaper. [01:29:20] Cory: Yeah, yeah, [01:29:20] Brett: Like the lock, the lock screen wallpaper. So when someone look at you info, I would just unlock my, or I would just hit the uh, wake up button on my phone. [01:29:32] Brett: They would scan my screen and they would get my V card info. It did not have the added benefit of requesting their info and return. It was a one-way transaction, but it worked out [01:29:43] Brett: pretty so much of this life. [01:29:45] Brett: All of all of my QR codes on business cards go to my website slash qr, and then I just have an HT access file that redirects slash qr [01:29:58] Jeff: It’s the most Brett thing ever. [01:29:59] Brett: to, [01:30:00] to whatever place I want people to go. [01:30:03] Brett: So usually it goes to like some old about me page, but I can like. or, or Like, I can redirect that to whatever the current hip, uh, like about page kind of thing is, or LinkedIn or whatever I want. Um, so just like all QR codes, go to that one URL and then I can change where that URL goes. [01:30:28] Cory: That’s cool. [01:30:29] Jeff: Nice. That’s a good one. Weird tip. [01:30:31] Christina: No that. No, no, no. That’s a good one. I feel like you could use like the Blink thing, and now I’m like on Blinks website, they sell like NFC business cards, so you could like print a custom business card that you could put all your stuff in and then when somebody brings their phone up to it, it’ll just transfer that information like wirelessly. [01:30:48] Christina: That’s actually kind of hot. That’s pretty cool. Well, great [01:30:53] Jeff: Okay. [01:30:54] Cory: there’s a free version though. [01:30:55] Christina: Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was, I was, I [01:30:57] Cory: be [01:30:57] Christina: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. It looks like it. It has like a [01:31:00] full free thing. I was just noticing and it was, but it was inexpensive. It’s like $14 to get an NFC business card, and I was like, actually that’s not a bad idea. [01:31:06] Christina: Like that’s actually kind of a cool, like have one, that way you carry one card instead of like a hundred. [01:31:11] Cory: Yeah. [01:31:12] Christina: But All right. Closing Remarks and Recommendations [01:31:13] Brett: Well, in closing, I would like to recommend that everyone go out and buy two truths and a lie. And I do not say that lightly. Like seriously. I did not have to read it twice to do this podcast, but I did because it was that good. Um, I would love to see an audio book version of There is an audiobook [01:31:34] Cory: version Is Yeah. It literally just saying, show it [01:31:37] Cory: came out at the same time, uh, as, as the book. Yeah. [01:31:42] Brett: fuck yeah. All right. did you do the reading or did someone else. [01:31:45] Cory: I, I did not, I’m not quite Grammy enough. [01:31:48] Cory: I got a, I got a very accomplished voice actor named Tim LBOs, uh, who is, yeah. He did a really good job with the noir voice of it. [01:31:56] Brett: Oh, I’m gonna go get that too. I want the whole time. [01:32:00] I was like, I would love to hear how a a, an accomplished audiobook reader would, would in tone this line. Um, I also always read books from like, in my mind, I’m always trying to convert it to a screenplay, and I’m like, how would I, how would I demonstrate this? [01:32:18] Brett: Yeah. Anyway, it gets nuts. Um, but anyway, please everyone check out two truths and a lie. It’s so good. Um, and thanks Corey for being here. [01:32:31] Brett: I Thanks. Thanks for having me. It was great getting to know all of you. [01:32:34] Christina: Likewise. [01:32:35] Brett: are going, we are going to take you up on a part two. We’ll be, we’ll be in touch. All right, everyone, get some sleep. [01:32:43] Jeff: some sleep. [01:32:44] Cory: Oh, some sleep. [01:32:46] Jeff: See ya.

This week, Merlin Mann, a pioneer in blogging and podcasting, joins the crew for a lively chat. They tackle the humorous side of managing medications and the chaos of personal health. The conversation swings from nostalgic reflections on childhood literature to the struggles of corporate reorganization. Expect laughter as they discuss tech productivity hacks, the emotional depth found in music, and the vulnerable side of discussing politics. It's a blend of heartfelt insights and not-so-serious banter that keeps everyone engaged.

Brett and Christina dive into a sleepless whirlwind of tech chatter and media binges in this wildly overtired episode. Brett recounts his struggles with insomnia, trazodone, and Gabapentin while lamenting the lack of manic productivity. The pair highlight a futuristic cyberpunk novel and tease an exciting author interview. Together, they traverse the realms of new Macs, Framework desktops, and nostalgic gaming. Rogue Amoeba’s audio software gets a fanfare, and gratitude overflows for essential apps like Audio Hijack and AlDente Pro. Expect deep dives, late-night coding, and lots of tech talk. Sponsors Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code OVERTIRED at incogni.com/overtired and get 60% off an annual plan. Rogue Amoeba has been making the highest quality audio apps for Mac for over 20 years. Save 20% off any purchase with the code OVERTIRED at macaudio.com/overtired! Show Links LOST Severance Yellowjackets Marked 2 Apple reveals M3 Ultra, taking Apple silicon to a new extreme Apple unveils new Mac Studio, the most powerful Mac ever, featuring M4 Max and new M3 Ultra New Framework announced All8Bit G11 Pro AlDente Pro Audio Hijack Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Updates 01:13 Exciting Book Interview Announcement 03:57 Mental Health Corner: Sleep Struggles 10:37 Media Consumption and Mental Health 27:44 Sponsor: Incogni 31:03 Tech Updates: Mark and Envy Ultra 41:11 Exploring Setapp’s Developer-Centric Approach 42:12 Subscription Models and Lifetime Licenses 46:27 New Mac Announcements and Benchmarks 54:54 Framework’s New Desktop and Laptop Innovations 01:00:17 Retro Gaming and Emulation Challenges 01:06:17 Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba 01:16:12 Battery Management with Al Dente Pro 01:22:17 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

Brett and Christina return from a break (sans Jeff for a couple weeks) with an episode that’s part health saga, part tech chatter, and part retro gaming geek-out. Christina boasts a new gig at Google DeepMind, while Brett recounts his personal health battle featuring an unexpected guest: shingles. They commiserate over the state of big tech job markets and share their takes on ReadWise and the latest AR glasses. Sponsor Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code OVERTIRED at incogni.com/overtired and get 60% off an annual plan. Show Links Google Deepmind VITURE glasses Analogue Mister Pi Mister FPGA Retro SuperStation kindaVim Readwise Reader Shortcutie Supercharge (now on Setapp) Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Catching Up 00:12 Christina’s New Job at Google DeepMind 01:42 Job Market Challenges 05:02 Mental Health Check-In 05:11 Health Updates and Shingles Experience 13:07 Reflections on Disabilities and Empathy 19:32 Social Media and Digital Presence 25:32 Sponsor: Incogni 27:38 Brett’s New New M4 MacBook Pro 29:03 Exploring Viture XR Glasses 29:44 Comparing Viture XR to Oculus and Vision Pro 33:24 Retro Gaming Consoles and Emulators 41:47 Gratitude and App Recommendations 46:45 Readwise and Productivity Tools 53:13 Closing Remarks and Sponsor Shoutouts Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript 426 [00:00:00] Introduction and Catching Up [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome back after a little break. This is Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren. Christina, how’s it going? [00:00:11] Christina: I’m good. I’m good. Christina’s New Job at Google DeepMind [00:00:12] Christina: Uh, I am no longer unemployed since we last talked. I, I have, I went on a cruise and uh, and then I started a new job. [00:00:21] Brett: I, I’d be willing to bet that there are a lot of people in our audience who are dealing with the frustration of how hard it is to find a job right now. So everyone’s jealous of you just hopping around between jobs like a, like a, like people used to in tech [00:00:39] Christina: No, I [00:00:40] Brett: jobs got so hard to get. [00:00:42] Christina: No, look, I, I, I don’t in any way, like I’m, I’m, I’m incredibly, incredibly grateful. Um, so, uh, I, I, my new job is I, I’m working in, uh, developer relations, um, at Google DeepMind. So that, that was, uh, that was the job that I took and I’m, I’m, um, I’m really excited. Um, I’m, it’s been a couple of weeks, uh, since I [00:01:00] started, there’s a ton to learn, um, uh, a ton of new processes to, but, but there’s a ton to learn in both ways, both about the company and how they work compared to, you know, what I’ve been doing the last. Three years at GitHub and then culturally kind of, you know, like five years before that at Microsoft. Um, and then, um, there’s a, just a ton to, to get caught up on, on, on all the, the, the Gemini and, and, um, AI studio and, and, and Jim of the open model stuff. So there’s just been, uh, it’s been, um, a lot, but, um, I’m incredibly, incredibly grateful that I have a job and that, that I was, you know, um, I guess like able to do, like you said, kind of like the traditional job movement kind of thing. [00:01:41] Christina: So Job Market Challenges [00:01:42] Brett: Did you know that while unemployment is still pretty low, um, and it was like record low a couple years ago, but it doesn’t [00:01:52] Christina: that was a lie. [00:01:54] Brett: but job hiring, job hiring is actually at [00:02:00] like great depression rates right now. Like it is, there’s a job freeze out there and I know I felt it like I’m ready to, I’m ready to look around, but the more I look around and the more I do like initial interviews, the more I realized, like, I just don’t have a lot of options right now. [00:02:17] Brett: And, um, I’m grateful that I have a certain amount of stability with my job right now. We’ll see how long that lasts. [00:02:24] Christina: Yeah. I mean, the only thing that I’ve kind of like come to terms with over the last like few years is it’s like the only certainty is that there is none, right? Like the days of stability, um, I think in, in, in big tech, like regardless of like where you are, like is gone, which is. Um, because that was obviously like [00:02:44] Brett: Oh, it used to be, yeah, [00:02:45] Christina: used [00:02:46] Brett: I can barely remember that, but it used to be like, if you can get a job in tech, you’re set. [00:02:51] Christina: Totally. Totally. And, and I was one of those people where I was just like, Oh man, like, uh, I felt like I kind of missed the wave a little bit because like I, I went from an industry that did [00:03:00] not have job stability and then like I had like a good five years or so, you know, and, and, uh, you know, and there was some, and then like it, it hit and it’s like, there is not anymore. [00:03:09] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but yeah, no, your, your point about like the hiring levels being low are, um, or non existent are so true. And then the other thing too is like, When a few years ago, when the, the, uh, Biden administration was like, Oh, we have record low unemployment. Even then I was like, you’re full of shit because you only count unemployment, not underemployment. [00:03:31] Christina: And there are so many things there that don’t get like reported. So if you have any job at all, or if you’ve worked anytime in like the last, like whatever the, the, the, you know, the, the way is that they’ve like rated it, then you’re counted as an employee. But that means that there are people who’ve been laid off, but now we’re driving occasionally for Uber. [00:03:48] Christina: Or are, you know, doing like an occasional freelance thing, like is counting, you know, [00:03:53] Brett: who have given up on finding employment. They’re no longer [00:03:57] Christina: huge, they’re no longer counting because they’re not paying into the, they’re [00:04:00] not getting unemployment benefits that my pain into the system. And so we just celebrated, Oh yeah, it’s, it’s so great. No, it’s not. [00:04:05] Christina: And it hasn’t been, and it’s really terrible and like not to get too ahead of things or whatever, but like, it does make me feel sort of conflicted because like my current employment and like the things that I’m interested in focusing on the future for lots of reasons, like AI. Are actively also being used to go potentially like reduce employment across industries. [00:04:30] Christina: So like, I, I don’t not feel weird about that. I, I, I’m fully aware of, of the dichotomy and, and, uh, like, uh, you know, hypocrisy and what I’m, I’m fully aware of it, but I’m also, I’m just going to fucking be honest. We live in a system and we live in a society, you know, as, as the saying goes, and I, I’m not going to opt out of, you know what I mean? [00:04:56] Christina: Like I’m going to be selfish. So like as, as much as that sucks to [00:05:00] say, [00:05:01] Brett: Yeah. All right. Mental Health Check-In [00:05:02] Brett: Should we do a mental health check in? [00:05:04] Christina: yeah, yeah. Let’s start with you because, um, I want to hear how you’ve been doing, especially with your health stuff and everything else. [00:05:11] Brett: yeah. Yeah. Health Updates and Shingles Experience [00:05:11] Brett: I’ve actually been doing really well So I I got my diagnoses we talked about that and I started doing some simple interventions for some of my health problems like the passing out I just I drink three liters of water a day with five grams of salt in it And that on its own, simple over the counter remedy, I, I no longer get dizzy when I stand up. [00:05:42] Brett: Um, I don’t pass out at all. Uh, most of my life is because of that returning to some, some, it’s a new normal, but it’s a normal, and I’m able to like drive and get myself around and. Uh, We go up and down my [00:06:00] stairs so I can get down to my office easily. And, um, so that’s all been really good. I got shingles last week. [00:06:07] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. You sold us that. And like, that’s insane. How, okay. First of all, like you had chicken pox as a kid, right? [00:06:13] Brett: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t shing chickenpox does not immunize you from shingles. Chickenpox doesn’t even technically immunize you from chickenpox. Uh, there’s a certain, there’s a certain, they don’t know exactly how many years it gives you immunity for. But it’s certainly not a lifetime. And the virus that causes chickenpox stays with you your entire life. [00:06:34] Brett: It never goes away. It just waits for an opportune time and then it can surface as shingles. Um, and, and you shouldn’t be able to get shingles again within like they, they say minimum of a year. Um, and you have to wait a year before you can get the shingles antivirus vaccine. Yes. [00:06:53] Christina: whatever. Yeah. I was, okay. That’s what I, okay. So, but like, but you’re so young, like that’s cause like, I was just thinking, I mean, [00:07:00] I guess [00:07:00] Brett: Oh, my, my ex wife Aditi got shingles when she was, must’ve been about 32, 33. Um, and yeah, it’s, it can happen at any point, um, in your adult life. Even with or without chicken pox, like when I was a kid, we still had chicken pox parties. I don’t know if you were around for that, [00:07:24] Christina: No, no, I was, [00:07:25] Brett: in the neighborhood would get chicken pox and all the parents would get all the, and get everyone fucking chicken pox and, and supposedly immunize them for, you know, their life. [00:07:36] Brett: But it might prevent childhood chicken pox from happening again. But since it only happens once, why force it on anyone? They don’t do that anymore. Nobody does chicken pox parties [00:07:48] Christina: No, no, no, no. So I was like, right at the era when like there was the vaccine, but I still got it because this girl in kindergarten, Brandy, her dad brought her in. [00:08:00] And I remember this because I knew, I knew like there was something wrong. And like, she was kind of sitting like, she was sitting near me and she was like using my crown. [00:08:07] Christina: And I was like, Brandy’s sick and I’m going to get sick. And I think like the dad was like, brought her in, like, didn’t know, I think she might have chicken pox or something. And, and I don’t know, I don’t know if he said that. Uh, I just remember knowing that she was, yeah. Not well, and that she was using my crayon and I was like, I’m going to get sick. [00:08:23] Christina: And yep. Like, like that is how I got chicken box. Like that is, I know it, that is how I got chicken box. I woke up like on a Saturday and I had like something on my face and I still have a little scar on, it was like the first one, like on my chin and I was like picking at it and I was like, why do I have a pimple? [00:08:36] Christina: And my mom was like, Oh shit. Um. And, and I might’ve given it to the next door neighbors, but, but this was like, it was that weird time because the vaccine had just come out. Um, but because I got it like naturally, you know, it was like too late. [00:08:53] Brett: Um, yeah, well, so this happened after I had 10 days of insomnia over the course of 10 [00:09:00] days, I got like a total of 15 hours of sleep, maybe 18 hours of sleep over 10 days, um, which comes out to, you know. Less than two hours a night. Um, and it was my body and my immune system was just wrecked from not sleeping. [00:09:15] Brett: And, um, finally my doctor put me on trazodone, which helped for a couple of nights and as soon as I started sleeping again, then I got shingles. Um, and at first, like, so I’ve started also as part of my, uh, mass cell activation syndrome, I get, uh, histamine reactions and apparently All kinds of foods are high in histamines. [00:09:40] Brett: And I had really didn’t know what histamines were until this started happening, but like any food that you leave in the fridge for three days starts to build histamines, but things like aged meat, take things like pepperoni, things like, um, tofu and soy sauce, all are high in histamines. [00:10:00] And if I hit a certain threshold of histamines in a day, I get like horrible skin burning. [00:10:07] Brett: And, uh, I guess that’s the primary, the primary way it manifests for me is with this intense prickly skin burning that I get. Um, and so at first when I got shingles, I thought I was having some kind of histamine reaction that was showing up as like pox on my skin. Um, and, I believed that for a good 12 hours, but my histamine reactions really only lasts for about half an hour and then they fade and this kept going. [00:10:37] Brett: And I was like, Oh, this must be a really bad histamine reaction. So then I started Googling, started doing a little web searching. Why is this happening to me? And the first thing that came up was shingles. And I was like, Oh yeah, I’ve heard of this. So I went to the doctor and they’re like, yep, you have shingles. [00:10:54] Brett: And, uh, they put me on Valtrex and. [00:11:00] They prescribed gabapentin for my pain, but I was already taking 1800 milligrams of gabapentin. So that basically I was already covered at night anyways. So I got through it. It lasted about, um, five, six days and then I was fully recovered. I feel fine now. Yeah. So that’s my health, mental health wise. [00:11:29] Brett: I’m also doing pretty well. Um, I had to cut, right. I had to cut back my Vivense a little bit. My doctor, while we’re trying to figure out my whole sleep thing, wanted to like reduce my stimulant intake a bit, which is fine. It didn’t, it hasn’t really affected my like daytime concentration levels going down like 10 milligrams. [00:11:55] Brett: And. Uh, my focus has been pretty good. I’ve been getting my work [00:12:00] done. I’ve been, um, still a little slow getting back into doing the dishes and walking the dog after the shingles. But like, I’m starting to pick back up on that. And I would say overall, um, if I can keep my sleep up, I’m doing all right. [00:12:19] Christina: Good, good. Well, I’m really glad to hear about that because I’ve been worried about you for both the health and the mental health stuff. So, um, [00:12:28] Brett: Yeah. It’s, it’s been a, it’s been a ride, but I think, uh, I think things are leveling out for me. [00:12:34] Christina: good. I’m really glad. And, and I hope that like keep the other stuff like an in check, like I’m glad, like you’re not passing out anymore or anything, but like, I hope that like this new normal can still be more temporary and that, you know, you can get to a point where you’re feeling like you were like before, you were having [00:12:50] Brett: Yeah, I feel like that’s possible now for a while there. It seemed like, like I was screwed and my life would never be the same again, but it seems like, yeah, I [00:13:00] might get back to, uh, to feeling more like a whole person again. [00:13:05] Christina: That would be really good. That Reflections on Disabilities and Empathy [00:13:07] Brett: Not that being disabled makes you a non whole person. I don’t [00:13:11] Christina: No, I know. Well, that’s not that. That’s not. [00:13:13] Brett: have, like, I got really down about my perceived disabilities and it made me really aware of like, what. Disabled people go through and the kind of, um, internal and external, uh, discrimination they do face. [00:13:32] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:13:33] Brett: and I, I’ve always been careful about that, but now I’m like truly aware of it and, and trying to catch myself from being ableist when I can help it. [00:13:44] Christina: Yeah. But I mean, like, I, I think though, the, just saying like, cause obviously you’re not saying the people who, but, but, but I think there’s like important things to differentiate between two, right? Like there, there are like, when you have a temporary thing and this isn’t in any way to discount or, or, or like, like make a qualification about, [00:14:00] uh, people who, who live with disabilities or whatever, but like when it’s temporary, I think that we can feel and like perceive like. [00:14:08] Christina: You know what I mean? Like if it is a loss and it does suck versus like, and how you cope with it is different than if something is permanent, right? Like if something is permanent, whether you, whether you’re born with it or you acquire it, like you can, you can come up with solutions and like you can come up with like ways to, to, you know. Exactly. And, and even just like mentally like deal with, with, with it, right. Or it will figure out like, okay, I can still thrive regardless of this. Right. But when it’s like a temporary thing or you don’t know if it’s going to be temporary or longer, like it’s, it’s much more frustrating. Like I gained a lot of empathy when I, um, uh, was hit by the car and I broke my wrist and I, but, but when I was still in traction before I got the cast on and I couldn’t type and I had to like use my left hand for everything. [00:14:51] Christina: And I was like, what am I going to do? Right. Like, I, I can’t like. You know, uh, and this is before, uh, voice to speech stuff was as good as it is now. [00:15:00] Now, we are at a place I think where I would have been able to even do some coding type of stuff, you know, with my voice, which just was not even really a thing seven years ago, which is, which is wild to think about, but it wasn’t. [00:15:11] Christina: Um, but, um, Like, but just that, that brief kind of period and kind of realize, and I was like, wow, I’ve taken so many things for granted, but B, it did make me think when I was looking at solutions, I was like, okay, if I had to live like this all the time, I would be able to figure out a one handed keyboard. [00:15:26] Christina: I would be able to, you know, figure out like other stuff, but when it’s like a thing and you’re like, okay, this is maybe like a, like a, a six week thing. It’s different, you know, and, and, and it’s, and it’s a different challenge and it doesn’t, yeah, you know, like, again, like you like not trying to be like ableist in any way, but just acknowledging, like, it sucks when things, especially related to your, your physical body change and you can’t do what you used to do. [00:15:56] Brett: So how are you? [00:15:58] Christina: I’m good. I’m good. Um, [00:16:00] I’m mental health is okay. Um, you know, going through a lot of changes and just kind of like dealing with all of that stuff. Um, but I’m just, um, which in some ways like being overwhelmed can be a good like way to press down anything else that’s going on. So, you know, it’s just like, just overrun your senses. [00:16:19] Christina: So yeah, I’m, I’m doing pretty good. Like [00:16:21] Brett: What else could be going on? I don’t know what you could be talking [00:16:24] Christina: yeah, exactly. I I’m honestly, I’m doing everything I can to like, not focus. And I know this comes from a place of privilege. I get it. I’m not discounting that, but I also have to protect my own mental health. And for my own mental health, I’m like not, I’m actively trying to not engage as much as I possibly can. [00:16:41] Christina: Cause I just can’t do it. [00:16:43] Brett: Yeah, I’m the same. And we can we can talk about that separately, but go on with your mental health. [00:16:49] Christina: no, that, but that is kind of part of it, right? So I’m just, you know, trying to stay, you know, focused on other things and just, and yeah, avoidism, you know, sometimes it’s a necessary thing. Like I’m all about [00:17:00] confronting stuff and facing it, but if there’s nothing that we can really do, [00:17:03] Brett: Exactly. Like why, why lose sleep when you can’t make a difference? Like do what you can figure out where you can fit in. But paying attention to every little news story right now and getting. You know, online upset about every little thing that happens is going to kill you because it’s not going to stop and it’s not going to let up and you’re asking for a life of torment. [00:17:33] Christina: totally, totally. [00:17:36] Brett: Yeah, I was, um, are you done with your mental health [00:17:41] Christina: I’m done with my mental health. Yeah. [00:17:42] Brett: This isn’t on our list to talk about, but I was going through. My, I, I added basically like my entire data hoarding life to Devin think, [00:17:54] Christina: Uh [00:17:54] Brett: and it was surfacing some things that I had forgotten about. And I [00:18:00] found the, when Tua shut down, I made everyone books of everything they’d written for Tua. [00:18:07] Brett: Um, I think I have yours somewhere, but I really only kept track of my own and I was reading through it and man, I was actually a pretty good writer. I don’t know what happened to me since then, but [00:18:20] Christina: You’re a great writer. I think, [00:18:21] Brett: I don’t remember writing any of those words. [00:18:25] Christina: If you have mine, I would love it. Like, if you’re ever able to come across it, I would, [00:18:28] Brett: Yeah, I’ll see what I can dig [00:18:29] Christina: That would, that would be fantastic. But, because I would just love to go and see, like, early Christina writing. It’s always so funny because writing is one of those things that, like, You really do. [00:18:39] Christina: It is a muscle and it is one of those things that, that you can, um, uh, you get better at it the more you do it, but you can also get like rustier, like if you don’t do it all the time or if it changes. And I noticed that even with myself, right? Like I don’t write the way that I used to and I can get it. I can get it back. [00:18:55] Christina: I feel like, but it’s not like if I, if I was to go back into the thing where they’re like, [00:19:00] you need to write this number of posts a day or this number of things a day, I could do that. But like, it would take me. At least like, you know, a few weeks, you know, [00:19:10] Brett: a few weeks a month. Yeah, [00:19:11] Christina: yeah, a month, a month, a month to like ramp up again. [00:19:14] Christina: Um, [00:19:16] Brett: that muscle every day and getting back into it. [00:19:18] Christina: well, this is why, like, honestly, maybe this is a thing I need to like, um, make myself do like for my own mental health is I used to like journal or at least write for myself like every day. And I haven’t done that in years. And I feel like that would be. Social Media and Digital Presence [00:19:32] Christina: Uh, a good thing for a long time, like, like Twitter and social media and things like that, even though it wasn’t long form, was at least still a way to like, write, um, and, and express and kind of exercise that a little bit, but all of that is such a cesspool and hard to, you know. [00:19:48] Christina: Navigate like, where do I post and where are my people and all that that I’m just like, and yeah, I, I am still on Twitter or X or whatever. Um, and, and that is largely for work reasons and no, I’m not going to apologize for it [00:20:00] and I’m not going to defend it. It is what it is. Like we all have things that we have to do. [00:20:03] Christina: And if people are unhappy with me for that, I respect that. Um, I’ve tried to be on some of the other platforms too, but it, it just sucks because everything is, you know, dispersed and, and [00:20:13] Brett: I held out on Twitter for quite a while. I just deleted my account last week, um, because I had checked it a couple times over a few month period and I was not getting any DMS. Like the reason I was hanging onto it was mostly because I used to get like, um, Mark tech support questions, uh, via DM there. [00:20:35] Brett: Um, and sometimes like press inquiries and sponsorship inquiries and things like that via DM and that was not happening and. Um, I wasn’t active there anymore. [00:20:47] Christina: Right. I mean, at that point, there’s [00:20:49] Brett: of wanted [00:20:49] Christina: there. [00:20:50] Brett: the only reason I would have kept my account there is so that no one else could take my handle and, and make fake [00:21:00] statements on my behalf. [00:21:01] Brett: I don’t know that I’m a target for that kind of thing. I don’t think I’m popular enough for that to be a concern. Um, so I just. I just, I couldn’t, I couldn’t in good conscience maintain any presence on the platform anymore. And no judgment, like, I [00:21:19] Christina: No, no, no, and, and, and, no, no, no, no, and, and, and, and I don’t feel judged that way, and I, and I respect that. Like I said, like, I feel like if that’s people’s, like, thing, like, that is, I completely respect that, and I wouldn’t tell anybody, like, oh, well, that’s. You know, uh, uh, you’re, you know, invalid for, for thinking that, or, or your morality is, should be focused on more important things. [00:21:38] Christina: Like, that’s not at all what I think I’m like, you, that’s how you feel. And if you’re not getting anything out of it, you shouldn’t be someplace like even putting the morality stuff aside. And, and I don’t think we should, but even putting that aside, if you’re not getting anything out of someplace, like you don’t need to be there, right? [00:21:51] Christina: Like if, if people aren’t, if your people aren’t there and if it’s not [00:21:54] Brett: If you’re not getting anything out of someplace and it’s actively toxic. [00:21:58] Christina: Right, right. Then, then, [00:22:00] then, like, then, then, fuck it. Right? Um, and, and I certainly don’t get out of it what I, I once did. Right? But there are reasons that I have to be there. And so, that is, that is fine. Um, for, for me. But it sucks though, just because it’s like, again, like, all the platforms suck in their own ways. [00:22:16] Christina: And you know, you know, we have to kind of, and if you have people who are everywhere, then it’s like, you have to replicate things everywhere. Like even just when I announced like that I was changing jobs, I had to like do it like on six different places where before, like I could just like pen a tweet, you know, and be like, okay, everyone knows. [00:22:33] Christina: Um, it is what it is, but [00:22:37] Brett: I keep forgetting about LinkedIn and all of this and like, as much as I don’t want to think LinkedIn matters for, for my, for my circle and my tech job and all of that, like, I, I log into LinkedIn and I’ll always have like 40 to 50 messages waiting for me because I haven’t checked it for like a month. [00:22:58] Christina: And that’s how I feel. I’m terrible with [00:23:00] LinkedIn. Like, and I know it’s important and I know it should be like more active there. I just, I can’t. [00:23:05] Brett: Of course, out of those 50 messages, like five of them will just be LinkedIn trying to sell me on LinkedIn premium. [00:23:12] Christina: Yeah. And, and I, I, I, I, I pay for LinkedIn premium. Well, okay. So Microsoft gives people, gives employees a 75 percent discount. So it’s like 20 a month. Now, as an alumni, I apparently. They have an alumni program where you can still get the discount on LinkedIn and some other things. And for the first year, the alumni program is free. [00:23:35] Christina: So great. So it means that I still get access to the employee discounts, at least like for the software and, um, a couple of other things. And then I think it’s like a hundred dollars a year or whatever. And, and, um, and I don’t, I don’t know if I’ll renew. Well, it depends if I’m still using LinkedIn premium because there. [00:23:51] Christina: The benefits of LinkedIn premium is you can send a message to anybody. And there are a couple of other things too that are, you know, can be useful, especially if you’re ever asked to like post [00:24:00] content or whatever. But like, um, I would never pay personally, I would never pay 60 a month for it. Um, Oh, you also get LinkedIn learning, LinkedIn learning, which is valuable. [00:24:08] Christina: So that’s like lynda. com, but like a lot of. You know, the library, I think most, most public libraries have deals with LinkedIn learning, um, pro tip, if, if you’re wanting to like get really good training courses and whatnot, check with your local library and see if they have a LinkedIn learning subscription, they probably do in which case. [00:24:24] Christina: You know, you get access to a ton of stuff because, because LinkedIn learning is actually a really great resource, but like I would personally not pay 60 a month, but 20 is, you know, different. And I was not able to expense it before if I’m actively using things in the new role, I might be able to, I don’t know. [00:24:45] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but regardless, 20 is. Is, is a much different, um, uh, like calculation, so, you know, like that, that’s, that, that’s fine. [00:25:00] But, um, uh, Yeah. So I don’t get those, but I get like a lot of, and I’m sure you get this too, because you work at a big tech company. Like you get lots of people connecting with you because they want, and I completely understand, but they, they, they want jobs or they want advice on how to get a job or other stuff. [00:25:14] Christina: And I’m like, I, I don’t know how to help you, especially if you’re [00:25:17] Brett: Yeah, [00:25:17] Christina: country where we’ve never met. Like, I, I, I don’t know how to help you, you know? [00:25:21] Brett: I do. No. All right. I want to tell you about my new AR glasses, but first I am going to. Take a sponsor break. Um, Sponsor: Incogni [00:25:32] Brett: this episode is sponsored by Incogni, a cutting edge service designed to safeguard your personal data. Did you know that data brokers collect and sell your sensitive personal information? This leads to unwanted spam, identity theft, and a loss of control over what’s shared online. [00:25:50] Brett: From people search sites to targeted scams, the risks are real and they’re affecting lives every day. But there’s good news. 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You can extend the same robust protection to up to four additional family members. This means that your entire family or your close circle can benefit from incognis [00:27:00] vigilant data removal and monitoring service, providing peace of mind for everyone. [00:27:05] Brett: Take control of your digital privacy. Now visit incognito. com slash overtired. That’s I N C O G N I and secure your data today. Sign up and enjoy a 30 day money back guarantee. Protect your privacy with incognito and experience peace of mind. [00:27:23] Brett: Knowing your personal information is safe. Take your personal data back with incognito. Use the code overtired at the link in the show notes or visit incognito. com slash overtired and get 60 percent off an annual plan. Brett’s New New M4 MacBook Pro [00:27:38] Brett: So, um, so I’ve been working on, I got my new, new. M4 MacBook Pro, this time with two terabytes of storage instead of the mistaken 256 gigabytes of storage that I had gotten, um, and two terabit, two terabytes is the right amount for me.[00:28:00] [00:28:00] Brett: Um, like I immediately filled up about a terabyte of it and now I have a terabyte of like room to breathe. Um, so I’m, I’m pretty good with that. I. It is so fast. I got the M4 Max Pro Pro it’s the pro and it it’s 10 cores and 48 gigs of RAM. And it is so nice to work on that. I actually have been neglecting my M1 studio. [00:28:30] Brett: Um, And that has meant on my, on my studio, I have two 32 inch monitors, um, that. I was really used to, and at first working on a laptop, even a 16 inch laptop screen seemed very confining. Um, but I got really good at using spaces, which and full screen apps, which I [00:29:00] had never. Appreciated before. Exploring Viture XR Glasses [00:29:03] Brett: And then I just yesterday got a pair of Vicher. [00:29:09] Brett: It looks like virtue, V I T U R E, it’s Vicher. Um. They’re not even AR, they’re VR glasses, but, um, they [00:29:21] Christina: think they call them XR or something. [00:29:23] Brett: what does that even mean? [00:29:25] Christina: I don’t know. Like, uh, yeah. Yeah. I can’t remember what the XR stands for yet. I think [00:29:31] Brett: Yeah, I think you’re correct though. And, they look like, like a pair of Ray Bans. And, um, like I own, um, Uh, what’s the metal one? Oculus. Comparing Viture XR to Oculus and Vision Pro [00:29:44] Brett: I, I own an Oculus and it’s okay, but it is ungainly and it can’t connect to your, your Mac. Um, like you can’t use it as an external display in your Mac. So that’s what intrigued me about the Vire, vier [00:30:00] Vitor, um, glasses is, they’re like 400 bucks and um, and you can set up multiple desktops. [00:30:11] Brett: In the glasses for your Mac book and they connect over a USB C port. And so sitting at my Mac book, I can see through the bottom of the glasses. I can see my keyboard and my track pad if I need to. And then I have, right now I have it set up to have three desktops. Um, and I can pan left and right to see all three desktops, um, at once. [00:30:36] Brett: And. I am pretty impressed. I think it’s a little jittery compared to like the Oculus and I’m certain compared to like, uh, the vision pro, uh, for 400 bucks, it does the trick [00:30:50] Christina: Yeah, I mean, like, like, let’s put this in perspective. Yeah, I think like the price for the because I’m looking at their website right now. It’s it’s 4. 59. But the limited time [00:31:00] offer is 50 off. And I bet that limited time offer has been the limited time offer for a while. [00:31:04] Christina: Um, [00:31:05] Brett: be, uh, [00:31:06] Christina: correct, right? So you’re talking about like 410 before, you know, tax or whatever. And, um, they’re claiming, um, you know, uh, 135 inch, 120 Hertz, full HD display. Um, and, uh, you know, so that’s obviously going to be lower resolution than the vision pro, but the vision pro is starts at 3, 500, but. But you know, like that’s only going to give you like, I think like the smallest amount of storage. [00:31:34] Christina: So if you want anything decent, you’re starting at like, I think like 3, 700 and then you’ve got to add in, you know, getting the right strap because the straps that come in the box are garbage. You’ve got to get the Falcon strap and you’ve got to get like some other things and you probably want to, you know what I mean? [00:31:49] Christina: By the time you get tax involved, you’re spending over 4, 000 period. End of story. Unless you live in a tax free state. So like. [00:31:56] Brett: it’s 10 times as [00:31:58] Christina: It’s ten times as much and, and, [00:32:00] and, you know, oh, and there are no apps. So, you know, your experience is, is pretty limited. Whereas this, um, uh, now, is there an app that you use with it? [00:32:10] Christina: Like, is that what controls? Okay. [00:32:12] Brett: It has, it has this app called space Walker, um, and it pops up and. Asked for screen recording permissions, and then it gives you a menu of like one display that is basically just a mirror of your desktop display or, you know, any up to like six stack displays. Um, and the only one I’ve tried so far is the three horizontal. [00:32:37] Brett: Configuration, um, and that, cause that’s pretty much the way I usually set up my desktop, like in IRL to, [00:32:46] Christina: Right. Yeah. [00:32:48] Brett: so yeah, it’s, it’s working [00:32:52] Christina: yeah, I’m like looking at it because I’m actually kind of interested. There would be some [00:32:56] Brett: great for watching movies on your iPhone [00:32:58] Christina: Well, that’s what I. [00:32:59] Brett: it when [00:33:00] I travel. [00:33:00] Christina: Well, that’s what I was thinking. I was like, if I was thinking for movies, it could be really good. And I was also thinking like, um, I’m looking at the website, like they have like it showing it with the steam deck and the steam deck. [00:33:09] Christina: I feel like that would be a really perfect like way of, of getting, you know, I [00:33:15] Brett: Yeah. And, and with a switch, it’s supposed to be really good with a switch too. [00:33:20] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Um, I have to say, like, sorry, go on. Retro Gaming Consoles and Emulators [00:33:24] Brett: no, you don’t, I’m sorry, I’m changing the topic cause I just found this, um, Uh, this product, I think the company was called all eight bit. Have you seen this? Uh, it’s like a little HDMI box. That’s like four inches by one inch. And it has like every classic emulator, every time, every classic, uh, console emulator dating back to probably Atari. [00:33:51] Christina: Oh yeah. I’m seeing this now. [00:33:52] Brett: And it comes with like every game and it’s like, I think it was like 200 bucks and you’re basically buying [00:34:00] like 10 different classic console systems and hundreds of games. And I’m not a big like gamer, but I do have nostalgia for like old NES, a super SNES games and even some like Nintendo 64 is included in there. [00:34:20] Brett: And playing like Mario cart would be a blast. So I went ahead and I bought that. I haven’t gotten it yet, but I bought it. [00:34:27] Christina: No, I’m interested to see what it is. I mean, I have a, I have a feeling like I need to like look at the, the, the specs of a feeling like, um, I, I know like there, there are a lot of these, these, um, types of boxes out there, but this, this one’s cool, like in terms of it coming with, um, the controllers and, and obviously, and, and, and the cores, which is what the systems are known as being, um, you know, installed. [00:34:47] Christina: And then, um, but, uh, I’ve been using this thing, so there’s, are you familiar with, um, uh, The, uh, the Mr. FPGA program, um, um, um, I guess like a project. [00:34:59] Brett: No, [00:34:59] Christina: [00:35:00] So, so, so Mr., uh, or known as like Mr. FPGA, it’s basically an open source project that like will recreate, um, classic gaming consoles, but it will do it on an FPGA based hardware rather than emulation. [00:35:12] Christina: So, um, are you familiar with FPGAs? [00:35:15] Brett: I am not. I was going to ask you to explain that to [00:35:18] Christina: Okay, so an FPGA, I think that stands for, I think it is Field Programmable, uh, Graphics Array, I think that’s what it is. Let me check that FPGA wiki. Um, [00:35:30] Brett: golf association. [00:35:32] Christina: I was correct. Uh, no, it’s not graphics. It’s Field Programmable, um, Gate Array. But basically, this is like a, a type of, um, circuit that can be, like, programmed to, Exactly emulate or not even emulate, but I guess like basically be like the same, like run the same instruction set. [00:35:47] Christina: It says another type of hardware. So like how people started using these things or how I first found out about these things, uh, probably like, like 10 or 11 years ago was that people would, would program these, these boards to basically, um, [00:36:00] uh, perfectly, um, uh, like emulator or playback the byte code of like older, um, uh, like, uh, Computing systems, you know, like Commodores or Amigas or even like early Macs and and they were able to to do that. [00:36:12] Christina: And so that’s made them really, really good for video game consoles, especially older consoles like like the Nintendo Super Nintendo, you know, um, Um, you know, PlayStation, um, even the Nintendo 64, if you can basically get a board that’s powerful enough and has like enough memory and whatnot, you can program it. [00:36:30] Christina: And then what that will do is that means that you can play the ROMs or in some cases, like at the actual physical hardware, byte for byte, the exact same way as a regular system would. So you can basically like, it’s this board of, it has the right software on it, you can, you know, use the other stuff with it. [00:36:45] Christina: And it’s not emulation in the same way. It’s like, it’s hardware emulation, but like that. The software will play and we’ll output that the same way as other things did. And so there’s a company called analog, a N a L O G U E. Um, [00:37:00] and their sister company is eight bit dough, eight bit dough, which, um, makes like, um, uh, both a new and, um, uh, new controllers as well as like Bluetooth, um, uh, accessories to connect more modern controllers to. [00:37:13] Christina: Older consoles, but, um, and vice versa, but, um, they basically have like a, a professional, uh, like, I guess, closed source version to a certain extent of Mr. FPGA, which is a project. Sorry to go back. So Mr. FPGA is an open source project basically designed to like figure out, okay, you can build your own FP with your. [00:37:32] Christina: The proper FPGA board you can build and the right software you can build your own like mini console system that can play, you know, ROMs back the best way possible and you can output it both to analog or digital depending on what, you know, For as you get in, what set up you do. Um, and it’s pretty cool. [00:37:47] Christina: Analog makes like a more professional version of this usually aimed at like. One specific console and with analog is actually designed to work with the original hardware. So if you have like the, the, um, analog super [00:38:00] Nintendo, um, uh, system, then like you can use the real cartridges the same with their [00:38:05] Brett: Oh, wow. [00:38:05] Christina: one. [00:38:06] Christina: Um, and I have there. I have their Super Nintendo and I have the Nintendo 64, um, pre ordered and they came out with the Analog Pocket, um, a few years ago, which will play back Game Boy and Game Boy Color games. Um, and I think Game Boy Advanced as well. Um, and, uh, so, um, but, um, there’s this other company, but the Mr. [00:38:27] Christina: FPGA program is really, really cool. Uh, but the problem is, is that the boards to, um, build those systems have become really expensive in the last few years. And so, like, it used to be a couple hundred dollars to be able to, to get in on one of these systems. And now you could spend like 400. And like, at that point, most people are going to be like you. [00:38:46] Christina: They’re just going to buy, like, the regular emulated box. You know, that you can get that has a bunch of ROMs, right? Because they don’t fucking care enough about like the, the bite for bite stuff, but it is still really cool for people who like to tinker, right? You want that. And so there is this [00:39:00] guy, um, it goes by tacky Udon, um, on social media. [00:39:03] Christina: And, um, he started a company called retro remake and he was basically able, he created a project called Mr. Pie. We’ll have all of this in the show notes. Um, and it is not a raspberry pie, even though like the name, he’s taken it from that, but he has taken kind of a raspberry pie approach where, um, and, and, and unfortunately his boards are not in stock very often. [00:39:23] Christina: Um, and they kind of go in waves, but he has like a, um, you know, sold, um, last year, like he was able to get like. Um, a Mr. FPGA completely compatible board with some improvements even in my opinion, about how the design was done, where you could get a completely completed system for like 180 bucks. So I did like, you’d have to bring your own ROMs, but it would be assembled and it would have with the analog and the, um, you know, uh, digital output and, you know, there like other things involved, really cool stuff. [00:39:51] Christina: Um, he started a project, um, uh, that, that he launched, I guess, like. End of January or in February called the [00:40:00] superstation one and I’m going to send you this link in our chat, right? Now, um, so that you can see it. And this is really, um, cool. Um, it is, um, like he’s calling it. He’s basically, this is his take on, um, the, the analog consoles. [00:40:21] Christina: So he’s calling it the retro, um, uh, the superstation one, and, and he’s calling it the world’s first affordable FPGA gaming console, a recreation of the best console, the nineties open source from day one. So all this is very different from the, um. Existing things. So he’s made it look like a PlayStation. [00:40:36] Christina: Um, specifically PS one and actually the redesigned PS one, but it will work with any of the other systems and cores and then he’s also going to have a doc that he’ll have available, um, that will play CDs. So you could even use like. You know, like your old like discs or burned or roms or whatever. But, um, [00:40:58] Brett: bucks. That’s nuts. [00:40:59] Christina: yeah, [00:41:00] this guy is incredible. [00:41:01] Christina: The stuff that he’s been able to put out. And like, I have to say, I got my, my Mr. Pie, um, last year and, uh, it was great. Um, like I bought it kind of on a whim and I was just like, like. Anyway, he he’s like one of the few reasons kind of like worth using Twitter because like he’s he’s active on Twitter and stuff. [00:41:18] Christina: But like, um, yeah, um, so this could be a rabbit hole for you. I think you’re going to love the system you get and I want to hear a review on it. But, um, if you find yourself liking it and want something like. Maybe it goes to the next level, like maybe, maybe consider getting one of the, like the, the, um, retro station, the superstation one rather. [00:41:37] Brett: Yeah. That looks super cool. Really slick. Nice. All right. Well, that was a. A diversion from anything we had planned to talk about. All right. Gratitude and App Recommendations [00:41:47] Brett: So, uh, let’s do a gratitude. Um, do you want to kick off, [00:41:53] Christina: Yes. So, um, this one, and I don’t think we’ve mentioned it before. Um, I actually bought it when it first came out, but now it is [00:42:00] available on set apps. So Sandra Sorjas, who we’ve talked about before, because he’s just like, uh, epically like prolific with his GitHub profile and releasing, um, open source apps and free apps. [00:42:10] Christina: And he makes a lot of like Mac apps too. He has two things that are, that he’s released recently that are cool. Um, the first is one called shortcutty, which is a Mac app that is basically like a, uh, a shortcuts app for, for, for Mac. So like you can do a, um, it’s, it’s similar to actions, which is his iOS app for, for, um, iPad and iPhone that will like give you more functionality for the shorts cause app. [00:42:33] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but, but shorty, uh, or short cutty rather short cutie, uh, I guess it’s probably the way it would be announced, which is cute. Um, it’s like 8, um, uh, to get it from, from Gumroad. It’s not in the app store, um, but it’s a, it’s a Mac app and it’ll like basically include pre done actions where you can like, you know, um, get selected text or clear notifications or, you know, um, open, um, uh, uh, an app. [00:42:58] Christina: You know, um, [00:43:00] in something else where you can like pass across like a URL or, or create a new instance or whatever, you know, you can hide all windows, quit all apps. Like a lot of these things you’ve been able to, you can do in other utilities, but this is all just with shortcuts, which is pretty cool. So, but, but short cutie is not the one I’m talking about. [00:43:15] Christina: The one we’re gonna talk about is a supercharge, which is also a Mac app. It is also paid. I bought it. Um, Uh, I guess when it came out, but it is now available on set up and it’s a menu bar app that will basically just, uh, be able to do quick actions to just do a ton of different things. Some of them are similar to some of the things in short cutie, but a lot of them are, um, you know, like, you know, you can like show the markup tools by default, you know, in your screenshot preview, you know, you can, um, uh, you know, Copy, you know, the, the message link, you know, from, from within mail, you know, um, toggling, you know, night shift or, or true tone mode, toggling the low power mode, um, stuff like that. [00:43:55] Christina: And [00:43:55] Brett: close and minimize, close and minimize and hide and quit apps [00:44:00] directly from mission control? Which is, you know, for someone who’s just getting into spaces more, [00:44:05] Christina: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, uh, this is a pretty great app. Um, and, uh, it came out, I think last fall. Um, but, uh, as of, uh, end of January, I think it’s now part of set up. So, um, uh, uh, supercharge. Um, it’s a, it’s, I, like I said, like I’ve been, um, uh, I bought it, uh, when it came out. Um, and, um, I’ve been like, yeah. [00:44:30] Christina: Really, uh, I’ve been really happy with it. I, but also I just think that Sindris work is really, really good. So, that is, uh, that is my craftitude. [00:44:38] Brett: that’s awesome. I, um, I linked this app, uh, in a web excursions a while back, uh, before set up, I think, uh, before it was on set up. I mean, not before set up itself, but, um, At the time when I looked at it. It, it was very impressive in its scope, but pretty much everything it did. I already had like my own [00:45:00] hacky ways of doing, um, and I didn’t see a need to replace all of them, but it looks to me like it has expanded since then, and I’m seeing a lot of features on here that I could actually make good use of. [00:45:13] Brett: So nice pick. Thanks for, thanks for bringing it back up for me. [00:45:17] Christina: Yeah, no problem. No problem. [00:45:19] Brett: Since you kind of did too, I’m going to kind of do too, too. Um, so I, quick mention, there’s this app called kind of him. Have you seen kind of him? [00:45:31] Christina: No, I haven’t. [00:45:33] Brett: It’s, it’s a little utility that can bring VIM keyboard shortcuts to any app on your computer. Um, so. [00:45:43] Brett: For me, I trick, you can trigger it multiple ways. I have it. So I hit J and K at the same time and it, my screen dims, except for the foreground window, and then all of your VIM movement keys work. And so like in finder, if I want to, if I’m at the bottom [00:46:00] of a list of files and I want to jump to the top, like there’s no keyboard shortcut and finders to do that, but if I hit JK and then hit GG. [00:46:10] Brett: Which is top of page for Vim, it jumps to the first selection in the list. And then I can use J and K to go up and down and then to exit Vim mode. I just hit I or A and, and in like a text editor, if like in text edit, for example, I can hit JK. Navigate around when I hit a, it will append or I will insert, um, just like it would in them, but in text edit and it’s very cool. [00:46:40] Brett: It’s like, I think two or three bucks a month to subscribe to it. Readwise and Productivity Tools [00:46:45] Brett: And I, and I love it, but my actual pit for today is read wise, um, which is a service that it’s 10 bucks a month, I think. And. Um, it’s basically [00:47:00] you load in like RSS feeds, you forward emails to it, [00:47:06] Christina: It’s a read it later app, but for everything, like, like, like it’s your, it’s like Instapaper and Pocket and RSS and like your [00:47:14] Brett: and EPUB reader and, [00:47:16] Christina: like, like, it’s like, it’s like, it’s everything. It’s really [00:47:19] Brett: and you can, while you’re browsing the web, you can have the ReadWise extension. So on any web page you’re looking at, you can turn on the extension and then use. Your cursor to highlight passages in the web page and then view that page and it’s highlights in read wise. Um, well, their app is called reader. [00:47:40] Brett: It’s the read wise reader, but that’s the read wise service. And then readers, the interface for the service and, um, 10 a month seems steep to me at first, cause I was also just getting into Devon think and was kind of trying to use it as my read it later app. Um, but read wise, the, [00:48:00] the reading tools and read wise are just so handy. [00:48:04] Brett: And I find that. Uh, highlighting passages helps me retain it. And then it has built in reviews for your, your highlights. So at the end of a day, it can send you like your top five or 10 highlights and you can review them and then you can even turn them into flashcards that’ll come up. At intermittent periods, um, to like, if there’s a piece of information that you really want to retain, you can turn it into a flashcard that’s either fill in the blank or Q and a, and I’ve just started using this feature and it’s really helping me like when I read something and I’m like. [00:48:40] Brett: It would be really good to remember that next time I’m in a debate on this topic, I’ll like turn it into a flashcard and like start building up actual knowledge for myself, which is hard as an ADHD person to retain all of that information. I know Christina, you’re fantastic at it. I am not. Um, so this is [00:49:00] really helping me [00:49:00] Christina: No, well, it helped. Well, look, the thing is I have to like work at it. Like it helps me to like, like I’ve been doing Duolingos for the last 114 days. And, uh, and I haven’t missed yet. I’ve been, I haven’t had to like, you know, use their, their, their thing where they’re, yeah, I haven’t, yeah, I haven’t had to use like a repair thing. [00:49:17] Christina: Um, but, um, I did have to like use, uh, gyms or whatever, because I got kicked out of the diamond league. Cause I didn’t like actually use it enough to get enough points one week. And I was like, I don’t want to lose my status. Um, but, but no, but like, but like, but trying to learn French has kind of taught me, like, Yeah, I’m really good at retaining information, but trying to go through your language, especially, it’s like one of those things I’m like, no, you need repetition, you need like to be reminded, and like, that’s really great, like when you can have that can be like, okay, this can become like, you know, Anki, like, like flashcards or whatever to like, get that kind of wrote kind of stuff. [00:49:52] Christina: Yeah. [00:49:53] Brett: And for anyone who goes down a similar path to mine, where they’re into Dev and Think, [00:50:00] but also love ReadWise, um, I do have a script, you can find it on my blog, that will import every day your ReadWise highlights, and it’ll download the Markdown version of the article you highlighted. It’ll highlight Your highlights in the markdown file in Dev and think, and append all of the links to your highlights, your notes, and your tags in the annotations on the file. [00:50:25] Brett: So I get the best of both worlds and I can search and, and collect all of my. Uh, important articles in Dev and think, but without having to think about it, I just use read wise. I highlight my text, I tag, I add notes, and then it just shows up in Dev and think for me. So that’s not my pick, but read wise is my pick. [00:50:47] Christina: Yeah, no, Readwise is awesome. I’ve been using it since it was like in beta, beta the first time. So I think I’m, I’m, I’m like on legacy pricing, which is not that much cheaper. I think it was like the equivalent of 8 a month instead of 10. Um, but I’m charged annually, so it is what it is. [00:51:00] But, um, I, I, I, I agree with you. [00:51:02] Christina: Like I, when I first heard about the idea, I think I, I think it was in Mac stories. I think Mac stories wrote about it, um, early on, uh, about reader. I think Readwise was out first, but they’d wrote about like the, the reader. Option or like the thing that was going to be created. I was like, okay, this actually sounds like everything I’ve wanted from like an all in one kind of reading service. [00:51:24] Christina: Because my problem has always been like, I, um, you know, I used like Instapaper for years. I might even still pay for it. I, God, I really need to use rocket money or whatever to go through all of my recurring subscriptions on stuff. But, um, I, you know, I would have to have like multiple. Tools to try to do everything like a pin board and I have you know Instapaper and I have my ebook thing and I have all this other stuff and I’m like, you know And you have RSS I’m like, can I just have it like Everywhere, right? [00:51:53] Christina: Like one, like one thing, which, yeah, [00:51:57] Brett: Yep. I have all my, all my RSS feeds are in [00:52:00] their, uh, news. Email newsletters that I, that I actually want to keep track of. I redirect, uh, I have Mailmate redirect them to my Readwise email account. I dump EPUBs in there that I want to easily mark up and, and memorize. Um, pretty much only like nonfiction stuff. [00:52:23] Brett: I’m not like reading. Fiction books in and read wise, but for like the book on Devon think, uh, from take control books. I put into read wise and use that to highlight. Cause I want to do a talk on Devon. Think it max suck this year. So like stuff that I wanted to like, make sure I remembered about Devon. [00:52:44] Brett: Think as I read it, I highlighted it and now they flashcards for me. So I’m memorizing Devon. Think via read wise. It’s fun. I like it. All right. Well, uh, it was good to see you. [00:53:00] It’s, I don’t remember how long it’s been, but [00:53:02] Christina: been like a month. [00:53:03] Brett: a month, a month. [00:53:04] Christina: it’s been like six weeks. Oh my god. It’s been six weeks because it was, yeah. Or, or, five weeks. Anyway, regardless, it’s been a while. Closing Remarks and Sponsor Shoutouts [00:53:13] Brett: uh, um, barring major catastrophe, we will be on for. Weeks in a row. Now we have sponsors rolling back in for this quarter. Um, and we will be financially obligated to keep the show going. Um, so thanks to all of our listeners for your support, go click on sponsors, buy stuff. It makes us look good. Um, [00:53:38] Christina: Uh, click around. Uh, yeah. Uh, please. No, [00:53:42] Brett: but seriously, incognito is awesome. Like [00:53:44] Christina: is awesome. I was gonna say, I, [00:53:46] Brett: from incognito, like 137 new services contacted. And [00:53:50] Christina: well no, I, I, I, I, I’ll disclose even though like Brett did like the ad read, like they did give me like a, a, a, I guess, you know, account to like try it out with. And I, and I’ve [00:54:00] usually pretty good at being able to find some of this stuff and like send out things to have things removed. Like I’d actually have mine pretty locked down. [00:54:07] Christina: Um, at least through the major, major data brokers. However, like this got found things that I definitely didn’t want out there. Like phone numbers, like my phone number is my main thing. Like emails, unfortunately, I can’t do anything about that. Right. Address. I don’t love, but like, it is what it is, but like my phone number, I really don’t want that. [00:54:23] Christina: Out there and, um, and yeah, I found a bunch of things and I was like, okay, this is really useful. And I, having gone through personally, like how much time to try to scrub things from systems before. Like, and the thing is you can get it from one, you know, at one point and then it might show up again, like a year later. [00:54:41] Christina: So it’s [00:54:42] Brett: well, and [00:54:43] Christina: to do it for you. [00:54:45] Brett: we’re not getting paid for this part, but I will say that since I started using it, my volume of spam phone calls has gone to zero. Like I get some stuff from like Amazon business, uh, trying to sell [00:55:00] me on like seller accounts and stuff that I just have to, you know, block, uh, because Amazon has my data and they’re not letting go of it. [00:55:09] Brett: But, um, but like random spam calls, I just, I don’t get it all anymore. And it’s very nice. All right. Well, good talking to you. [00:55:19] Christina: Good talking to you too, Brett. Um, hope we can continue feeling better and, uh, get some sleep. [00:55:23] Brett: Get some sleep.

In a hilariously overtired episode, the trio – Brett Terpstra, Christina Warren, and freshly 50 Jeff Severns Guntzel – shares personal updates and tech tidbits. Jeff reflects on turning 50 and throws an TV-themed party filled with nostalgia and sentimentality. Christina bids farewell to GitHub, navigating the emotions of her final day on MLK Day 2025. Brett, struggling with health issues, excitedly delves into the intricacies of DevonThink and shares his disdain for buses. Together, they discuss old tech software, film reviews, and geek out on imaginary Linux sponsorships. It’s heartfelt, chaotic, and genuinely overtired. Sponsor 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM can’t. It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entra, and in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password.com/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Birthday Celebrations 00:28 Reflections on Turning 50 02:30 Inauguration Day and Mental Health 06:22 Christina’s Career Transition 13:07 Jeff’s Birthday Party Recap 20:48 Brett’s Health Diagnoses 33:51 Travel Woes and Train Troubles 36:29 The Romanticism of Train Rides 37:11 Amtrak’s Writing Fellowship 38:17 Brett’s Media Corner 45:03 Sponsor Break: 1Password 47:41 Nostalgic Tech Talk 50:03 grAPPtitude 01:02:39 Get Some Sleep Show Links Self Reliance A.P. Bio High Potential DEVONthink Marky the Markdownifier Sentinel Lotus 1–2–3 Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Always Sunny Girl Introduction and Birthday Celebrations Brett: [00:00:00] Hey, it’s, it’s overtired. I’m so tired. Oh my God. Um, we all, all three of your favorite hosts are here today. We’ve got me, Brett Terpshire. We’ve got Christina Warren. Hey, Christina. And we have Jeff Severns Gunsell, who is. Fresh off of a birthday celebration. How’s it Christina: Happy birthday, Jeff. Jeff: Thank you. Thank you. Reflections on Turning 50 Jeff: 50, 50, 50. The last day of the rest of my life. Christina: You know, 50 is the new 40 is what they’re saying. So like, Jeff: Yeah. I, Christina: the start. Jeff: it’s a weird number. I don’t, it’s a weird one. I was like saying to somebody, maybe I wrote this, that like, I feel like I, turning 20, turning 30 felt like skin in my teeth, like I barely made it, and, uh, 40 felt like inevitable and kind of, uh, disappointing, and, uh, and 50 feels [00:01:00] good, weirdly, just feels good, feels like, yeah, I made it, it feels like I made it, like, uh, it feels like a, not a finish line, but like, alright, cool, I made it this far, everything else is bonus. Brett: I’ll turn 50 last year. I uh last year I started dating a 50 year old woman, which is weird because Or a 50 year old person. Sorry Um, which is weird because I still think of myself as like 25 Jeff: Did you just say last year you’ll turn 50? Brett: last year last august. Yeah 50. Jeff: My God, start over. I’m so tired. I, and I know you, you’ve been up beginning sleep. I got sleep and still I’m just hung over from not, I didn’t even drink at my party, but it was, we had it at a venue and, uh, and, and it was so much work getting ready, bringing everything over there. It wasn’t even that much stuff, but like, it was enough. It was like a mini van load [00:02:00] and then like, get it. We had an hour for setup and then we did the party and then we had to break it down and. For some reason, maybe it’s cause I’m 50. That was exhausting. And I felt hung over the next morning despite not drinking at all. Christina: No, I think that that’s fair. I think that’s fair. I think that that’s one of those things where it’s like, um, you’re totally like allowed to be, um, what was it going to say? Like tired and, and all that other stuff. Like, it’s just, just one of those things. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. And also it’s a tiring day. Inauguration Day and Mental Health Jeff: We don’t have to get into it, but it is inauguration day. Um, and we can. Probably Christina: Yeah. And, and that, and, and that’s basically all we have to say about that. Jeff: no, but it is, I do think it’s, it’s lending to a sense of, um, of malaise. Christina: Oh, for, for sure. For sure. No, I, cause it was one of those things. So like, um, uh, I’ll get into it with, with, when we talk about mental health corner, but like, I’ve got like some stuff going on myself and, um, I, um, you know, it’s a, it’s technically like a [00:03:00] public holiday today because it is, um, Uh, Martin Luther King Day and so it was just like one of those like things where I’m just like, okay, Brett: the, is the inauguration always on Martin Luther King Day? Jeff: No, Brett: Okay, that’s just such a fucked up coincidence then that we’re, Christina: I mean, I’m sure it’s happened Brett: inaugurating a racist on MLK Day. Jeff: we’ve inaugurated our fair share Christina: say, I was going to Brett: on MLK Day? Come Christina: Oh, I’m, I’m sure that that has also happened before. I Jeff: On my birthday. Christina: and yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, no, I mean, the irony is, is. Is right there. And then of course it’s happening like a week after two weeks after Jimmy Carter’s funeral and they had to have it indoors because of the, the cold or whatever. And so like I made a comment that got way more viral than I expected it to be because the joke was in the comment, but I was like, you know, it’s kind of fitting that this is taking [00:04:00] place, you know, indoors because it feels really claustrophobic and like a funeral. And then everybody responds is, well, it is a funeral for democracy. And I’m like, yes, that was the joke. Literally. Literally. That was the Jeff: uh, I find, I find discussing it, for the most part, I’m not referring to this. I find if I am in a small group and somebody brings up the moment, I find it deeply unsatisfying to engage because it’s just like. I don’t know, I can’t even put my, my finger on it exactly, but it’s like somebody says something intensely obvious, and then everyone else shakes their head and we do need to vent and we do need to like, have some sense of sort of solidarity and community but there’s something about this moment that that’s not quite what it is, it’s like we’re all just Prepared, including myself to just like blurt out the, the last terrible thing we heard or thought about. And it’s, it’s very exhausting right now. I was like, when you need that, when you need me for the resistance, call me. [00:05:00] Uh, but I don’t want to talk about it. Just assume I’m in. Christina: Right. Right. No, but this was, this was just like a one off, like a knock on innocuous post that Jeff: Well, you know, Christina, it is a funeral. Christina: and I’m like, right, that was what I put in the post anyway. It has like 425 reposts and like 7, 200 likes and 401 responses. And all the responses are the same. That’s what I’m saying. Like this, this, this got, this was like blue sky viral. I was like, okay guys, I’m like muting thread because I don’t. This is too much. Um, also it’s like, again, yeah, that was the joke. Like, Brett: Well, Jeff: Well, in case you missed it, Christina, someone was there to help you see, Christina: I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m so glad that like people were able to like explain my joke to me. Like, I’m really, really Jeff: And if you need us today to explain anything to you that comes from you, we’ll do that. Because you got, you got two men here. We’re ready. Brett: just say it and we’ll jump in and we’ll tell [00:06:00] you Jeff: we’ll tell you what you’re saying, why it’s funny, why it’s wrong. If it’s wrong. I mean, we’re here Brett: We got you, we got you. Christina: repeat what I said back to me. Oh, Brett: we’ll just Jeff: Yeah. Just repeat. Christina: what you mean is this. I love Brett: so I do want to talk about why I missed Jeff’s birthday party. But first, uh, well, let’s do a mental health corner. Christina, you alluded to some stuff going on. You want to start? Christina: Yeah. Christina’s Career Transition Christina: So, um, as we were recording this on, on Martin Luther King Day, um, on a January 20th, 2025, God, 2025, that sounds so weird to say, uh, this is my last day at GitHub. Um, and, uh, so after almost three years there and, uh, seven and a half, um, little more than that, um, within the Microsoft family, I, I’m done. Um, I’m not going to announce where I’m going, um, for my next job. I’ve got, um, two weeks off. Um, but, uh, that news will be coming up. But that has been the thing that has kind of defined my mental health for the last couple of weeks is trying to kind of figure out [00:07:00] like, am I going to take this new job, this opportunity that I’m excited about? Um, but with that excitement comes like the sadness of leaving a team and a company that has been fantastic to me and people that I just adore working with and, and people that I couldn’t be more proud to, or honored to have had the opportunity to be with. Um, you know, I was a GitHub fan long before I ever joined. Um, uh, tech and, and I will remain one, you know, until the end. And so that’s been, that’s been it. Cause this is, you know, putting in all the time here. Like if you count the Microsoft and GitHub time together, this is the longest job I’ve ever had. And, uh, and so obviously there were like a lot of emotions around that. So that’s, that’s, that’s my mental health corner basically. Brett: Yeah. That’s, uh, that’s, that’s a, that is a long time in tech, um, to stick, to stick, even, even if you switch from Microsoft to get hub and still stayed in the Microsoft kind of umbrella, [00:08:00] that’s seven, seven years. That’s crazy. Christina: Close to eight. Yeah. It’s seven, a little more than seven and a half. Yeah. Brett: I did, I did the indie thing for that long, but I’ve never held a tech job for that long. Jeff: So are you, what, like what combination, uh, sad, uh, excited, um, whatever grieving, like what is the, what is the stew right now? Christina: I think that I’m now mostly, I think I’m at peace, right? So like last week was like the week that I had to kind of like make the You know, it was kind of, you know, telling people and kind of, you know, um, you know, just all that stuff and like there was a lot going in with that and we also had an offsite last week. So my whole team was together in person, which was awesome, but was also makes it that much harder, right? Because you know, you’re talking about the things to me doing, you know, in the next little bit and talking about, you know, processes and whatnot and then seeing people and then knowing You’re going to be saying goodbye. And so, um, I think peace is where I’m at now. So I went [00:09:00] through the grieving stuff and I went through kind of the sadness and I definitely cried a lot last week. And then I went and did karaoke with my teammates and, and we had, um, the final day of the offsite, which was actually, this was a great concept and shout out to, to Ashley for, she’ll never listen to this, but, but shout out anyway. Um, Ashley Billis for, um, putting the whole thing together because what she did for the final day, and I thought it was really smart and if I ever have opportunity to do something like this, I would steal it was, we had like the first two days were traditional kind of offsite stuff. And then the third day, it was all just like board games. Cause some people were flying out. Some people already flew out Thursday night, but some people were still there. People who were still around, we had like, we played like board games and like had movies and snacks and just like hung out. And it wasn’t, you know, it was just kind of like, um, like, like, like, uh, a rain day at school and, Brett: not a big party, but like actually a more kind of quiet, intimate thing. Christina: and it was cool because, um, like playing some of the board games and stuff, like we played this one called, um, [00:10:00] Spyfall, I think is what it’s called. And, uh, it’s like this British card game. It’s really fun. And, um, they have, um, a, um, uh, there’s a sequel, apparently to like, uh, um, uh, an online version would. Would fuck would be really fun. But like, we played like games like that. And, um, uh, I can’t remember what the other one was called, but there was one where like, you’re either like spies or you’re, you know, like on the good team and you have to like, try to figure out like. If you can, you know, keep the mission or not. And, and it was, um, I don’t know, games like that. I feel like you get to know people better and there are also some really like fun opportunities from a bonding perspective, you know, getting to see how people work and whatnot that can actually be really good for, for team building, but also for figuring out like, okay, well. How can we think strategically or like how, you know, I don’t know. I feel like there are like non interpersonal corollaries where like doing these interpersonal types of games can pay off. Anyway, I thought it was great and it was just really nice to be chill. It was just kind of like, you know, like I said, kind of like a snow day sort of thing, even though it [00:11:00] wasn’t snowing. And that was, that was a really nice way to be able to say goodbye to folks. And, and I really appreciated. That so, so I think I’m, I’m, I’m at peace. Yeah. It’s been, it’s been sad at goodbyes and, and, and endings, even when like they’re for the right reasons. And even when you do it, like out of no sense of malice or anything other than it just being like, I had an opportunity that I, that I, you know, that is the best thing for my career. And that’s all it is. It’s nothing not indicative of, of, you know, how happy I am with the company that I work at or what they’re doing or anything like that, like. It’s, it’s literally just about, you know, what’s, what’s best for me right now. Um, and, um, so, so I, I’m feeling okay, you know, but like, it is also one of those, like I went through all those grieving process steps, you know, the sadness and the fear and the excitement and all that other stuff. And so, um, but I think the good part of that is I feel like I went through all of that and now like we’re here and I’m like, okay. Now I can just be, you know, I have two weeks off. [00:12:00] Um, I’ve never had two weeks between jobs before. Jeff: That’s awesome. Christina: Yeah. Like when I moved across the country, I like, my final day at work was like on a Friday. And then like, the movers came or something I think like on Tuesday. And then I think we flew out on Thursday. Or Friday, um, to, to go to Seattle. And then I started work on Monday. So I, I had, I had a week off. That is insane, right? So I had a week off, but the week off was spent like literally moving across the country. So, so I’ve never had two weeks between jobs in my life. So I’m, I’m a little bit unsure what to do. Brett: are you not moving for your new one? Christina: I’m not. I’m at least not right now. Um, uh, you know, so, so, so, so staying put, so I don’t know. I’m, there’s like a part of me. I’m like trying to find these things like last minute is, is hard, but I’m like, I’m kind of like, and I’m, I would love to, you know, take someone else with me if I could, but it’s way too last minute for that. But I’m like, can I go on a cruise? So I’m [00:13:00] trying to see if I can get on a cruise next week or Jeff: Oh, nice. Christina: Yeah. Jeff: Nice. Brett: All right. Jeff’s Birthday Party Recap Brett: Well, Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I am doing good. Yeah. Doing good. I, it was, it was nice to have a birthday and have a birthday feel good. That’s nice to have a party. It’s nice to see a lot of people. I haven’t had a party since I was 33. Um, and, uh, that was a kickball game. It was really fun. Um, Brett: Wait, what? Oh, not, not, not today Jeff: no. Cause here’s the thing when I had a kickball game when I was 33, someone broke a rib, someone else broke a finger. And I was like, all right, when I’d be getting too old to be doing this stuff for birthdays. Um, so I kept it real, real simple. Brett: Tell us about the party though. I like, I got the invite. It said it was a like TV party and I didn’t know if it was a black flag thing or what was happening. Jeff: No, I okay. I’m going to tell you what it was. And then I’m going to tell you, [00:14:00] uh, my reflections on the difference between sentimentality and nostalgia. Brett: Okay. Jeff: basically what I, I’ve had this idea forever. Like the original idea, like a couple of years ago, it was like to do, to do three straight nights in my, in my living room on the TV with different guests every night of watching some primetime show from my youth. Um, and, uh, so I had this idea of like one night it’s like grizzly Adams. He served like meatloaf next night. It’s like Barney Miller and you serve TV dinners and like that kind of thing. And I really liked that. Um, but what I, what it finally became was like, we rented a space, really lovely kind of open space near our house. And, um, it was like a. It’s where they do music lessons and stuff, but it’s a big open room. And so they have all these sound baffles and they have a PA and I rented like a screen and a projector. And then I, I cracked in into Adobe premiere and I edited together like 40 minutes of essentially like simulated, uh, simulated, uh, 40 minutes of channel [00:15:00] surfing in roughly 1983. Um, and, uh, and so it was like, you land, you kind of hover over a couple of shows that you land on for like an act. And then there’s commercials in between. So I had, um, the pornographic bakery episode of Barney Miller. Um, which for anyone that doesn’t know was an, a cop show that lasted like eight seasons that was only ever in one room. Yeah. It was amazing. It just happened in one room in their filthy headquarters in what seemed like a basement. Really strong cast. Then I landed on, um, we hovered on Laverne and Shirley for a minute, um, episode where they’re training for a wrestling exhibition. Um, and then just a quick scene from WKRP in Cincinnati, uh, Johnny Fever and Venus Flytrap, uh, featuring in this particular one. Um, and then ended on like the final act of an A team where like the oxy acetylene torch comes out and Mr. T is wrapping dynamite and, and they’re getting ready to make, they’re making their villain trap. Um, and then, but the really fun thing was, um, [00:16:00] I went looking for commercials to put in between and, um, and I found some amazing commercials that there was, there was a fair amount of like really great early computing commercials and the way that I found the ones that were kind of the, my favorite was like, people have posted like all these YouTube videos where it’s like two hours of, of VHS, like SP recording of television, 1983, 1982. I mean, I don’t know if it would have been. It had to be VHS, but anyway, um, and so you can just scrub through it and pull commercials. There was an amazing commercial, uh, that was just a montage of people. Someone pops up and they’re like, they’re like CRT monitors behind them. And he’s like, I bought a computer, but then I found out. I don’t like computing. And it’s just like back and forth between people who go, I love computing and I don’t like it. I hate computing. Um, and, uh, and then there was just like, it was like a great Commodore 64 ad that was like the, [00:17:00] the only computer you’re ever going to need. Um, and then like, there was a great, like Bell labs, like. Uh, phone commercial, uh, advertising, one of those phones that has like buttons along the side with names of your people and you just press it. It’s like, imagine making a phone call by just pressing their name and like, as obvious as that is, because obviously tech has changed. I managed to find this like grouping of commercials that were kind of fascinating to take in and realize like. It’s that thing where you’re like, Jesus Christ, like I remember when I was growing up, I was like, Grandma, you, you grew up when there wasn’t TV or like, Mom, you were there when it went color and like, we fucking, we’ve surpassed that. We’ve surpassed many of the horrors that like our parents experience, not our grandparents. They had World War II. Uh, and it’s just like one of those. Things that helps you kind of mark time. And it was just lovely to have to go through a bunch of Laverne and Shirley and Barney Miller episodes and what charming stuff that was. Um, okay. So the nostalgia versus sentimentality part, cause I was like, I don’t [00:18:00] like, um, theme. Birthday parties. I’m not against them. I just don’t like them. Um, and I don’t really like like era theme, uh, birthday parties. And so I was sort of doing that. Um, and, but it was just that, like, there was not really much else going on that was on sort of the theme of the eighties or something other than that. I come from the seventies and the eighties, by the way, because that’s when I really started remembering TV. Um, but like, I realized like nostalgia, like star Wars fandom and things like that, like always feels like this. This like longing to go back to a time and a place or to go back to a you to embody a moment that you were in. And I feel like sentimentality for me is like bringing the moment forward and just like enjoying the feeling of right now. And there’s like no longing in it. There’s no regret in it. There’s no desire to look back and that doing this with like that approach. Was really sweet and really fun and I didn’t get locked into, you know, like I was worried if I start going through old commercials, old TV shows, I’m just going to get [00:19:00] like, my stomach’s going to turn after some point. Cause I’m like, I just want to be back in the now. Um, but I just found it. It was also, it was almost like an academic. Pursuit to go looking at these things as history and super fun. So anyway, and people loved it. It was really like delightful to have people laughing at things that I thought were funny and that I, like I very specifically ordered the commercials and both in terms of like in a commercial break, but then over time, and like, there was the empire commercial, everyone know the empire song, five, eight, eight, two, 300. Christina: Empire! Yeah, Jeff: So I put one of those in, I put one of those in and as the, as they were singing that you could hear it rising up in the group of people until everyone hit empire as like a crescendo. Christina: just like, yes! Jeff: delightful. Yeah. And then just because I haven’t had a birthday in forever, I invited widely. And so it was also just delightful to see. It’s like a wedding or some easy people from different parts of your life that should not be in the room together. And, uh, and there they are in the room together and you could introduce people that [00:20:00] you always knew would kind of like, enjoy each other. And that was cool. Cause I don’t go out. I felt like when I saw all the people accepting the invite coming in, I was like, I think I need to just get up to a microphone and say, I owe you all a call. Like, that’s how it felt. Like, these are all the people I don’t really reach out to enough. Um, but I didn’t feel, uh, obligated to do that. So I just felt nice. It felt nice to celebrate like a moment and, uh, like allow a ritual or something. Cause I haven’t really allowed that at birthday time, including when I was 40. So it was great. Brett: Well, happy birthday. Jeff: Thanks. The most I’ve ever said about my birthday. Christina: I love it. Brett: right. Well, mine’s going to be a combination health, mental health, obviously. Christina: Yes. Brett’s Health Diagnoses Brett: So I got some diagnoses. Um, which I’m pretty excited about. Um, I got, um, hyper hyper mobile [00:21:00] spectrum disorder, which is, uh, kind of like, I didn’t have enough hyper mobility to have hyper mobile. Eh, Ehlers Danlos syndrome. Um, so it, I’m more on a spectrum, but that spectrum can include a lot of the symptoms that I do have. Um, also mass cell activation syndrome, um, which relates a lot to kind of the histamine reactions and burning skin that I have and Oh, what else? There was like a whole smorgasbord. Let’s see, thoracic outlet syndrome. Jeff: Woo! That one sounds awesome, Christina: Yeah, it does. Brett: um, that leads to a lot of like numbness in my face and stuff like that. Um, geez, I’m, I’m totally, the reason I’m blanking is because I’m working really hard to stay conscious right now. Um, I am Jeff: Oh my god, it didn’t occur to me you could pass out while we’re Brett: I, I’m not, yeah, I’m [00:22:00] not usually this faint when I’m sitting. Um, I don’t know what’s going on right now. Um, I, I ran upstairs to get more water and salt and realize that was a really bad idea, like halfway through. Oh, POTS, POTS is the other one. Um, uh, postural orthostatic techie. Tachycardia syndrome. Um, which is what makes me, you know, pass out when I stand up. Um, it’s why I’m wearing a binder around my abdomen right now, because I have to squeeze blood into my head and I have to drink three liters of water with five grams of salt a day. And five grams is a lot of salt. If you’ve ever kept track of your salt intake, um, we found this stuff called, Element L M N T that has a thousand milligrams of salt per packet. So five of those mixed in [00:23:00] with four or five bottles of water. And I can stay hydrated. It’s not a matter of hydration that much water and salt increases your blood volume, uh, which makes it less work for your legs to pump. Your blood to your head when you stand up, I also had to raise my bed. I had to put cinder blocks under the front legs of my bed so that it’s at like, uh, maybe a 10 degree slope, uh, so that my blood pools in my legs while I’m sleeping. Uh, it’s all very confusing to me, but because I got diagnoses, I was able to start some of these treatments and we were able to. figure out exactly what I needed to do. And I started a couple new meds, um, made a couple of changes to existing meds. And, uh, I’m just, I’m really grateful. I found this EDS clinic because of our friend, Brian Guffey. they posted [00:24:00] it on a Facebook thread. Um, and I, I immediately checked it out and got into, uh, Minneapolis or St. Cloud based doctor. And we did a telehealth session. Um, and I had just gotten some vitals from, uh, Gunderson that morning that I was able to share. And thanks to her, I was able to get a diagnosis that I could then go back to my primary care physician with, and I also got referrals to a bunch of like. Uh, EDS aware physical therapy places. Um, and I had to, one of the meds I’m on had to come from a compounding pharmacy. Do you know what that is? Jeff: No. Brett: a pharmacy that can make drugs for you. Christina: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because a lot of people have them for the, the, um, uh, like the, um, Ogilvy and, and things like that. Like you can get them cheaper than, um, paying for like Ozempic over the counter. Like,[00:25:00] Brett: well, and there are, there are some drugs, like the drug that I’m on is used to, as it’s not Narcan, but it’s used to counteract opiate overdoses, um, naproxen, I think it’s Christina: Yes. Brett: um, but it’s not profitable enough that any drug company will actually make it. So the only way you can get this drug is through a compounding pharmacy. Um, so that’s, I don’t know, it’s kind of fun to like have them manufacture my drugs for Jeff: And are these from, I mean, are these for lack of any real terminology, like open source drugs that people are like, yeah, Brett: Kind of, yeah, basically, um, uh, patent, patent Jeff: patent free, DRM free. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: Um, interesting. So these diagnoses, are they things that typically are chained together or are they just Brett: Yeah. So all of these fit under the umbrella of dysautonomia, which is what I knew going into [00:26:00] it, I knew that my symptoms like had to be dysautonomia of some kind, um, and that encompasses or comprises, um, I think probably 13 different, uh, disorders and syndromes. And so like generally, if you have one, you probably are, there’s probably coma comorbidities with at least one other. Um, it’s really common to like EDS and POTS almost, I would say 90 percent of the time seem to go hand in hand, uh, based on people I’ve talked to. I know, I know one family where the daughter has EDS and the The sun has, uh, pots, but, but they don’t share the two. Um, anyway, it’s yeah. So like things are better than the last time we talked and in general, I’m functioning better today has been especially rough, partly because the insomnia [00:27:00] the night before I was up because I had like skin burning in the middle of the night and I couldn’t fall back asleep. I don’t know what got me up last night, but out of the last. I want to say month, there’s only been two days that I’ve slept more than five hours, um, which has me super run down. And like two nights ago, I slept for like nine hours and I had a pretty good day. Jeff: What’s your magic number for sleep? Like, Brett: magic number is nine. I do really well with 10. Jeff: yeah, Brett: Um, but I can never get 10. Um, and yeah, that doesn’t, 10 hours of sleep doesn’t generally work if you want to have like family time and a day job. Jeff: yeah. Brett: Um, and I also enjoy a little TV watching at night, Jeff: Yes. As, as we do in this day and age Brett: I’m having, I’m having pretty severe histamine reactions, which means I need to [00:28:00] go on a low histamine diet and there are Jeff: low histamine diet. Brett: So things like raspberries and tomatoes, legumes, like all of these foods are high histamine. Um, and I, I could not explain histamine to you at this point. Um, I’m still learning. Um, but like, If I, I tried raspberry sorbet last night and, um, after I had some kimchi rice, kimchi fermented foods in general are high histamine. Um, so I was, if I, I think I was having an extinction reaction to like knowing I was going to have to give up histamines. So I was like, eat all the histamines. And I got like, Multiple burning spots on my skin, like intense burning. And I went and took antihistamines and rubbed a bunch of aloe on myself and got through it. Okay. But yeah, like that’s part of the MCAS, the mast cell stuff. Um, [00:29:00] Yeah. Jeff: what, what, is this something that was dormant in you? Is it something? Okay. Yeah. Brett: Yeah. It’s very likely that I’ve had the mass. So since childhood, like I’ve had that burning skin feeling since at least middle school, maybe earlier. Um, and I just had always. I’ve made a bunch of assumptions. The first I assumed everyone felt like that. And then as I got older and I started getting into drugs and alcohol, I always associated that feeling with getting sober. So when I started to feel that I would go and do more drugs and it would help. And I thought. And I thought that feeling was just withdrawal and like, so I would go like two weeks without a drug thinking I was getting through the detox, but the feeling wouldn’t go away and it would just never go away. Um, and yeah, and I would eventually end up doing drugs again, but, um. Yeah, now I, now I know [00:30:00] that feeling is, uh, mast cell and I can do things. I, I can, I have interventions for it. I can’t drink anymore. The, uh, drinking makes the pots pretty crazy. Um, and so like, if I, right now I’m blacking out, just sitting down. If I had a beer. I, I would, I would be out, I would be unconscious and not from the alcohol, but from the effect of the alcohol on my blood flow. Um, yeah, so this is fun stuff. Um, making progress though, pretty excited, um, to actually be moving forward on this. Like, cause I had, like, I got depressed, um, just how my whole life kind of suddenly got turned upside down. Oh, in answer to your question, my, my psychiatrist. Kind of your unspoken question. My psychiatrist, um, Jeff: you can read my mind. I don’t like it. Brett: uh, said that she, she and her daughter, [00:31:00] both their symptoms really began shortly after their COVID booster. And none of us want to be like a conspiracy anti vaxxer thing about it. Like none of us are anti vaccine. Um, but her anecdotal evidence or her, and her story was that. Like it, it seemed to kick and she had heard from other people too, that the booster kicked off the symptoms. And I had the booster in October and my symptoms started in November. So just from an anecdotal standpoint, it is possible in my Jeff: I don’t think those wonderings make you an anti vaxxer or conspiracy minded. I mean, it’s always, this is the problem with the moment we are and we’re in is like, there’s always a possibility that there’s something about this vaccine that we couldn’t anticipate and that we made a sacrifice in order to kind of like deal with an emergency. Like I, I’m still, I remember like when we, when I got the vaccine first, my [00:32:00] attitude was like, give it to me like acupuncture, like you just put it all over me. I’ll take it. But I also knew in saying that, that like, Down the road. I don’t actually know what’s going to happen, and we’re probably just, you know, in that zone, the beginning of that zone where we start to see and wonder. Yeah. Brett: But I’m past the depression now. Um, I am, I am on to the, um, just dealing with it. Uh, just learning to exist with whatever’s going on now. Um, it’s already become kind of normal for me to feel like this. And it no longer feels like I’m suddenly disabled. I’m actually. You know, I’m working. I’m, I’m functioning. I clean the kitchen whenever I can. Um, but when I was getting ready to leave for Jeff’s birthday party, I was feeling well enough to, uh, clean all the litters, clean up, clean up the kitchen, put away all the stuff in the living room [00:33:00] around my little couch nest and leave the house so that Elle could enjoy. The night of not having me in the house and, and wouldn’t have to do a bunch of chores just to feel comfortable in the house. Um, I tried to, I tried to make that work. Um, and then I think that was, that was the second big bummer for me about missing the party was like, I always get excited to give Al the house because. Because they get the house so rarely. I am always home. Um, and it like, I got a hotel and I was going to like let them just for a night. Just it was one night and then I had to go home and then I ended up on the couch and then I had a really bad night, uh, to the extent that I was kind of glad that I didn’t go. But anyway, let’s talk about, so I was going to take a train. Travel Woes and Train Troubles Brett: I can’t drive right now, but I was going to take a train to go to Jeff’s birthday party and Um, I’m in Jeff: so sweet, Brett. [00:34:00] Which is so sweet. And say to the listeners, you’re about how far from us? Brett: It’s a two hour drive. It’s a two hour train ride. Um, and I was going to take a train, uh, which I was also kind of excited about. Jeff: Oh, it’s the best! It’s the best. Brett: for the business seat, business class seat. Um, which I, I’ve never even ridden coach on an Amtrak. I usually end up in a sleeper car or business class. And I’m from what I’ve seen, the coach seats are nice, like Christina: I think Jeff: really nice. Christina: Yeah. I was going to say, I think, I think they’re fine. I mean, I’ve, I’ve never been in a sleeper car, so I’ve only been on the Acela or I guess like probably coach. I mean, they’re fine. Brett: Yeah, yeah. And I was looking forward to it, but here in Minnesota, it was about, uh, negative 10 and, um, Amtrak canceled the two trains that were running after mine and [00:35:00] left a mine TBD on the app all the way up until departure time. And they never, they never put a departure time on it. So I showed up at the train station to see what was up. And, Jeff: this sounds like the beginning of a not terribly great train song. Keep going. I showed up at the train station. Sorry, I got Brett: just to see what was up. Um, and, and a young woman had just gotten off the phone with Amtrak and informed me that they were going to send a bus, the train was, the train was gone. They were going to send a bus. It was going to be like an hour, but they were going to get us all to the cities. And I just. Left because a I hate buses. I I bought a train ticket because I hate buses and Be like, I was already cutting it close to get to Jeff’s party. Um, [00:36:00] and waiting an hour for a bus that was going to take almost three hours to get there meant I was going to show up at a point in the evening where I was already going to be too tired to function. And it just wouldn’t have been fun. And just party was the only reason I was going. And if I was going to miss that, then there wasn’t a lot of points. So I’m currently trying to get. Some kind of refund or credit for my hotel and my train tickets, but I haven’t had luck yet. . The Romanticism of Train Rides Jeff: I would love to take a long train ride. I’ve contemplated the Chicago line that they now have, Twin Cities Brett: There was, they did a promo and Dave Chartier, who you guys may know, um, Jeff: Who? I don’t know who that is. Brett: He was a writer at Tua, moved on to Ars Technica. I don’t know what he’s doing these days. Um, he’s the reason I have my career. Um, he started writing, he started writing about Mood Blast. My first, my first app written mostly in Apple script. And he started writing about it. He [00:37:00] was writing about every release I put out and he was writing about it. And I, I started getting more and more readers and more and more followers. And pretty soon it led to like job offers. And, uh, so, so I credit him with. Amtrak’s Writing Fellowship Brett: Everything I am today, um, but he took part in Amtrak’s promotion where they were paying people to write. Uh, they would give them free, free train rides, cross country, and all you had to do was write about Amtrak now and then, but they wanted you to work on like a novel or your next big thing. Jeff: That’s Brett: they were just paying people to ride the train and write. Christina: Yeah. One of my colleagues, one of my colleagues got, uh, Chris Taylor, um, got that too. And, uh, he got like, they call it like a fellowship or something, I think like the Antrec fellowship. Yeah. Chris Taylor was part of that as well. And I was like, that sounds really cool. Um, I would hate it. Like I would hate it, but, but I think for, for many types of people, there was something very romantic about like that. Brett: Romantic is the word. [00:38:00] Nostalgic even. Um. Okay. So we’re going to skip talking about Metta and Zuck. And I don’t even want Christina: care. Jeff: No Brett: to talk about, I don’t want to talk about the, uh, the inauguration or about Metta. Jeff: Hey, I feel like if that’s what you want, there’s a lot of podcast options. Brett’s Media Corner Brett: I do want to tell you about the sunny and Philadelphia connection that came up for me this week. Um, so I, I, I watched all the way through, um, Abbott elementary. Uh, starring Glenn Howerton, who was Dennis on Sonny, um, that show is amazing. I’ve seen it through twice. I love it. Um, it’s, he’s a school teacher who refuses to teach AP bio. Oh no, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not Abbott elementary. I’m sorry. AP bio. We’re talking about AP bio. Um, I get the two mixed up, but, um, he, he’s, he’s a, he’s a school teacher who refuses to teach [00:39:00] AP bio tells all his students, they’ll get an a, as long as they don’t tell anyone he’s not teaching. Um, and he begins using them to, he’s, he’s very revenge focused. He always wants revenge on somebody. And he focuses this advanced student group on helping him come up with revenge plots. Um, And occasionally to help him come up with like the perfect date or whatever. And he, it’s this bunch of really creative, really smart kids and they help him. Oh, it’s, it’s so good. So, um, so I’ve watched that and then I started watching, um, High Potential, which stars Caitlin Olsen, who was the sister on Sonny in Philadelphia and. Um, that show, I haven’t watched it all the way through. Uh, it’s, it’s new and I’m really enjoying it. She is a, uh, cleaning lady with a very high IQ that so high that it, they call it high [00:40:00] potential intellect and. So high that she has trouble holding onto jobs because her mind is just always like churning and noticing. And, um, she’s so smart. She, she ends up being a cleaning lady and working low end jobs. And, uh, she starts accidentally solving crimes for the police department. Um, Jeff: This is good. Brett: can’t, she can’t not fix something. There’s like an OCD aspect to it, which she sees a mistake. So at night she’s cleaning and she’s crossing stuff out on the murder board. And be like, no, this is the victim. And, and they like, they’re mad at her, but then she proves she’s right. And she solves cases and they bring her on as like a full time consultant. Um, and she dresses just like a trailer trash, uh, porn star. Um, like big, like zebra striped jackets with really like the, the pom pom pink cuffs and everything and the mini skirts. And it’s just, it’s amazing. Um, [00:41:00] and then, uh, I saw, uh, a movie called self reliance and it stars, uh, Charlie day. Wait, no, I’m kidding. I’m so faint right now. It wasn’t self reliance. Wasn’t Charlie Kelly. Was it? Jeff: If you pass out, it’s going to take me like three hours to get to you. You know that, right? Brett: Yeah, I know cuz it’s only there’s only buses. Yeah. No, it’s um, it’s it’s not Charlie What did I watch with Charlie day? Jeff: What do I look like, your roommate? Brett: Oh my Christina: I’m literally looking up his IMDb right now while I try to see, um, see, uh, Jeff: Christina, way to be useful. All I made was a smart ass Kamak. Brett: fools pair. Yeah. Yeah, that’s fools paradise That’s the one that movie was okay. Was it a movie or was it Christina: that’s a movie. Yeah, that’s a Brett: Yeah, that Jeff: I even here right now? Brett: The one, the movie I actually wanted to talk about, and now I’ve lost the whole, uh, Sonny in [00:42:00] and Sonny and Philadelphia connection. It’s actually a new girl connection, which kind of, I mean, for me, they kind of connect cause they were, it was an era. Um, but, uh, their movie is called self reliance Christina: Oh, this is the, okay, yeah. And it Brett: it stars Nick Miller. Yeah. And it, it looks dumb. Yeah, it looks dumb, but I decided to give it a chance and it’s actually so the the premise and I won’t give the movie away. But the premise is that he is pulled off the street into a limousine and offered, um. A million dollars to be hunted and stay alive for 30 Jeff: This is my specific fantasy. Christina: So, so, so, so, so it’s, so it’s a Mr. Beast skit. Brett: kind of, but the, the catch is they can’t kill him. If he’s with somebody, he has to be alone to die. And [00:43:00] so the whole his, he calls it a loophole, but it’s just the rule is that he has to be with somebody all the time. And that’s how you survive. And he’s kind of a loner. He lives with his mom and his parent, his family doesn’t believe. That this game is real. So Christina: So they don’t sit. Brett: out with them. Christina: Right. Right. Cause usually you just be like, bro, I will split this money with you. You just have to like stay by my side for 30 days. It’s fine. Brett: Right. And, and so he meets Anna Kendrick, uh, who’s also ostensibly playing the game and they team up and what it ends up being is kind of a heartwarming, like. This, this is what this guy had to do to develop human connection, um, with someone that would actually stand him for that long. And by the end, you’re even the viewer is not sure, like he becomes an unreliable narrator and you’re not certain the game is real either. You’re not certain. It’s going to be one of [00:44:00] those things where like the camera pans out and nothing else is there. And he’s just alone yelling at himself in a warehouse. And, um, Christina: Like a Mr. B sketch. Sorry. I keep Brett: Yeah. So, so it gets, it gets trippy. It gets heartwarming. Um, it it’s, it’s really well done. I really enjoy him as an actor. Um, I love new girl. He was my favorite character on new girl. Um, yeah. So, okay. So it started as a sunny Philly, sunny in Philadelphia connection morphed into a new girl connection. And that my friends is Brett’s media corner for this week. Jeff: Thanks, Brett. Christina: Thanks, Brett. Brett: Have you guys seen high potential at all? Jeff: No. Brett: I would, I recommend if you enjoy like. I mean, it’s, it’s a, it’s a worn out, um, premise for a show, but like the oddball police consultant Christina: Yeah. No,[00:45:00] Brett: style. Christina: no, I, I, I, I like the concept. Sponsor Break: 1Password Christina: Um, I think this is probably a good time to segue into our, um, sponsor break. Brett: Oh, we should probably do that. Oh my God. It’s 46 minutes in what happened to the time? Uh, this is our last, this is our last one sponsor, uh, one, one sponsor password ship. I’m so Jeff: Yes! Alright, this is gonna be great. We don’t owe them anything. It’s the last read. Brett, I want you to bring everything you’ve got today or don’t have to this read. Go. Brett: Okay. You got it. Let me, uh, I got to zoom my script in here. So it’s huge on my screen. Okay. I’ve done this before. It shouldn’t be hard. Imagine and Jeff: Imagine in a Christina: Imagine, in a world, your company’s security is like a quad on a college campus. There are nice brick paths between the buildings. Those are the company owned devices, IT [00:46:00] approved apps and managed employee identities. Brett take it away. Brett: then there are the paths that people actually use the shortcuts worn between the what, what, Jeff: I do Foley? Hold on. Christina: Yes. Jeff: walking. We’re walking. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. Brett: and then there are the paths that people actually use the shortcuts worn through the grass that are the actual straightest line from point a to B. Those are the unmanaged devices, shadow IT apps and non employee identities like contractors. Most security tools only work on those happy brick paths. Do you have a sound effect for happy breakfast, Jeff: We, Brett: but a lot of security problems take place on the shortcuts. One password extended access management is the first security solution that brings all of these unmanaged devices, apps, and identities under your control. It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected. Every device is known and healthy, and every app is visible. One password [00:47:00] extended access management solves the problems that traditional I. A. M. And M. D. M. Can’t it’s security for the way we work today and it’s now generally available to companies with Octa and Microsoft Entra and in beta for Google workspace customers. Check it out at one password dot com slash overtired. That’s one as in the number one one password dot com slash overtired. And seriously, we’re joking around. But thank you, 1Password. It has been a pleasure and, and we are all big fans and don’t take it personally. We love you. Jeff: what if we, um, and so thus ends the sponsor break of a demo. Okay. Nostalgic Tech Talk Jeff: What if, um, when we don’t have sponsors, we work our way through fake sponsorships for the various Linux distributions. Christina: Ooh. Okay. So the very Jeff: Today is brought to you by Linux Mint. Christina: today, this episode is brought to you by Hannah Montana Linux, Jeff: Hmm. Ooh, wow. I’m Brett: I [00:48:00] remember that. Yeah, I remember. We talked about that one Christina: We did. We did. I did. I shared it. I did. I did. And like, it has actually been my low key dream. Ooh, maybe that’s what I’ll do in my two weeks off. Maybe I’ll like come up with a new theme for like a more modern Linux system and be like, here’s a re spin Hannah Montana Linux 2025. Jeff: Oh man. Oh, I love this so much. I, okay. Can I, two things. One, my, my wife was working on a vacation that literally that was going to be like Japan and Montana in the same, uh, summer. And, and we called it Japan and Montana. And I’m really sad now because I wanted to get like matching family shirts that said Japan and Montana Christina: Yes. Jeff: Um. But anyway, very good. But also yesterday, so we have this amazing place called free geek here, which is like, it’s two things. It’s an electronics thrift store, they call themselves, but it’s also a place where you can go sit at a table and take apart electronics that you pull from a mountain of electronics to be recycled, basically, they split all the parts up, send them off to recycling anything that can be fixed or whatever goes into this thrift store, but [00:49:00] also things just people bring in there was. And I swear to God, I was so close to buying it. It was 120. It was this, this beautiful pink enclosure, um, of a, of a computer of a CPU. And it was like a square and it was weird and it was gorgeous. And it was a Linux mint box. And like it was 120 was from 2016. My son and I were just staring at it and I’m like. Do I bring this home? Do I bring this home? I did not bring it home, but it was gorgeous. And I, and I just, I want to, I wish I could meet the person that made it, because it was just the best. Anyway, that’s all. Linux Mint, thank you Linux Mint for sponsoring us today. Christina: We, we appreciate it Linux Mint and uh, stay tuned Hannah Montana Linux because you’re, you’re, you’re next. Jeff: Yeah, yeah. We could have a sweepstakes for Japan and Montana, where we give people, we could all probably, we could probably collaborate and, like, pool our points, and give a listener a trip to Japan and Montana. Maybe. Brett: I don’t want to do that. Jeff: [00:50:00] Oh, okay. All right. Okay. That’s fine. Christina: Fine. grAPPtitude Brett: do want to do a gratitude. Jeff: Oh, fine. Brett: Who goes first? Do I go first? Christina: You go first. Brett: So I, I have owned a license for Devin think pro since I don’t know, fucking nineties. Um, like for as long as it’s been around, I’ve always been enamored with Devin thinking I used it a decade ago for a little while. Um, and it overwhelmed me and for the succeeding years, I always renewed my license. I always owned the latest version and never really. Got into it. Um, and I generally would use like curio for brainstorming and I would keep all my notes in Markdown and NB ultra NB ultra. And, um, and every time I loaded up Devon think there are so many ways to organize information and so many [00:51:00] different kind of, um, approaches that you kind of have to design your own. System and it always got so fiddly that I gave up on it. But this time as I’m doing all of this research on dysautonomia and my symptoms and trying to cross link and cross reference and I needed to store PDFs and I needed to store web archives and web locations, uh, mix in with all my markdown notes and I needed to be able to annotate and, and link annotations to other PDFs and other documents and. Devon think was the only thing that could do all of that. So I finally got into Devon think and now that I’m into it, I’m really into it. Um, I loaded up, I loaded up just to look at the beauty of my research collection and every time I get to add a new PDF to it and link it and classify it and categorize it and tag it. Um, I get really excited now because like so much of it is kind of [00:52:00] automatic. Once you have your system set up and and all of my keywords and tags from other systems import into it, and it works perfectly with like my LinkedIn, uh, RSS feed for bookmarking. It works with Envy Ultra. Um, I can access the same. I can access all of my markdown notes and PDFs in Envy Ultra, add notes, edit notes, and it’s already automatically synced in Devon think and vice versa. Um, and when they. When you save a webpage, you can choose to mark downify it. And the tool they use for markdownification is my Markie, the markdownifier version 1. Um, I gave it to them. They host their own, they host their own Markie 1. 0 and I just started talking with, uh, Eric, the CEO, and we’re gonna, we’re gonna upgrade them to Markie 2. 0. Uh, Jeff: Ooh, that’s exciting. Brett: it’s quite an honor. They’ve been using my software longer than I’ve been using theirs. So.[00:53:00] Jeff: I love Devon Think. I’ve been using it since either George W. Bush’s first or second term. Brett: Yeah, Jeff: Yeah. Amazing. And it, and the man, it just gets better and better and it’s so solid. It’s never janky. Brett: I, I’m Jeff: so much at it. Brett: I am under NDA, um, to talk about the next version. Um, so I can’t, I can’t tell you anything about it. All I can tell you is there’s cool stuff coming. It’s going to be cool. Jeff: Excellent. That’s Brett: should get on the beta. You should sign the NDA and get on the beta. Jeff: Yeah, I could do that. I mean, yeah, I’ll Brett: I’ll hook you up. I’ll hook you up. Jeff: up with the beta, dude. Brett: All right. That’s mine. Jeff: awesome. Christina: Okay. I will go next. Okay. Sorry. Give me one second. I’ve got to sign into my account, which this is going to be fun to see how this works in 12 minutes. Um, Jeff: Do you want me to go? Christina: no, no, [00:54:00] no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s just, it’s just like, cause I’m about to, I’m losing access to my GitHub accounts in, uh, uh, 12 minutes. Not my personal account. Obviously they’ll, they’ll take me off of stuff. Okay. So this is, this is a cool app. So I’m sure we’ve all been in this experience where we download apps that, uh, don’t have a developer signature on them for whatever reason. And, um, you can obviously run terminal commands to put them in quarantine or de quarantine them or whatever. I even, like, had, like, an alias set up at one point. But it’s annoying. And, um, and it’s, and it’s only getting worse with, with, uh, Sequoia. So, and, and it will only get worse. So there is an app that I, that is called Sentinel that is signed. Um, that is, um, UI gatekeeper configuration UI. And so all you have to do is drag your app, um, To either self sign it or remove it from quarantine, and it will do that for you. So you can install it from homebrew, um, uh, if you, um, use this [00:55:00] user’s tap or you can get it off of, um, his, uh, um, uh, whatchamacallit, um, GitHub repo, um, the same developer also makes a app called pair cleaner, which is, um, very similar to app cleaner, but it’s apparently supposed to be better. So, um, I, I, uh, I don’t really know the differences there except Brett: You know, like app delete, Christina: um, no, um, the, um, uh, yeah, app, app, app cleaner, you know, uh, which is like the uninstaller app. Brett: I thought, yeah, there’s, there’s a bunch. I Christina: There’s an app. The one I’ve used is, is app Brett: I use hazel now, but Christina: Yeah, the one I use is AppCleaner, but, um, Hazel works well too. So anyway, um, this is, uh, one that, uh, so he has that pair, pair cleaner, which is pretty good. I think it’s basically AppCleaner, but it’s supposed to be more, more updated. And, but, but Sentinel is, uh, I’m, I’m a fan. And, uh, this is definitely something that like, I am appreciative of not having to, um, always remember, like, whatever the [00:56:00] hell the. You know, command is because the thing is that I might have, I have aliases on like one of my machines, but like not on all of them because I don’t properly, um, get repo all of my, um, aliases. Um, I need to get on that, um, but this is just Brett: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. I, I definitely run into that and I don’t know why people are releasing software without signing it, but it happens a lot Christina: Well, the reason is because, you know, obviously there are ways where you can like sign without paying for the developer fee, but it’s, it’s complicated and, and I, I fully understand, especially for like open source types of stuff, like where people are like, I don’t want to spend, I don’t want to give Apple a hundred dollars a year if I’m not making any money on this, why do I need to spend a hundred dollars a year to do this? I actually fully understand that. Like, I think Brett: Yeah. Apple should have app. I mean, copilot gives. You get co pilot for free. If you develop open source, why wouldn’t you get your Apple developer account for free if you weren’t doing anything commercial, Christina: Because you know that, that they would, they would view that as a [00:57:00] potential, um, like, uh, pri not privacy vector, like a certain security vector, like, that I think that, that they would think that there would be a lot of people who would come up with accounts for nefarious reasons so that they could have stuff, and it’s like, okay, but in that case, you just cancel Brett: you revoke that. Yeah. Christina: revoke, Brett: you control the signature. Um, yeah. All right. That’s awesome. What you got Jeff. Jeff: Mine is a piece of software that came out, um, 42 years ago next week. Uh, it’s called Lotus one, two, three. Um, and here’s why I’m not kidding. Um, I, we have a nineties PC here. Cause my, my two sons love like doom and quake and all these old nineties games, and they insist on playing them on a nineties PC. So at this electric electronics thrift store, I talked about, we picked one up. Um, it’s that’s 46, not quite the Pentium yet. Thinking of building a Pentium machine over the summer. Talk about that later. Um, but I have all these [00:58:00] diskettes from back in the day and they start in about 95 and go through about 2001. And, um, so much of my journaling and things I wrote and stuff from the Iraq organization I helped to run and stuff like that are on these diskettes. And I wanted to just like transfer them. And so we actually have like a five gigabyte drive on this thing. Like living in the future. Um, and so I, I pulled all these things in and what was amazing. So I also have, I got Lotus one, two, three off the free shelf at the thrift store and it was still wrapped. And I was like, this is fucking awesome. This is going to be so fun. So like, I, I loaded it up. It’s great. And, and it’s so, I mean, it was so powerful at the time. So exciting at the time, uh, when I used, I didn’t use it at 83. I used it around like 92 or something like that, but like. There were all these files that I couldn’t open because I don’t have the software anymore or whatever else. Um, yet I haven’t loaded it on and it was able to just like dig in there and pull the content out, not just be a spreadsheet program. Like it’s really got this amazing ability to just like [00:59:00] parse any kind of file and pull content out in a way that’s readable. And I was blown away. I was like, go. Get them Lotus one, two, Christina: Hell yeah. Jeff: and it, and it like saved, it allowed me to see like old journals and all like emails from the earliest days of email and like all this different stuff. And it was just like, so impressed. And I loved that. I got it wrapped off a free shelf because it was actually, I knew it could probably do that. And so I actually had the excitement of going through the, like four disc install, or it’s just like insert disc two of four, it’s just like, I fucking just to quote. Commercial from the beginning of this. I fucking love computing and it was just the best. And then I transferred, the funniest thing was I transferred all my diskettes onto a folder on my windows 95 desktop and, and then felt secure, which is really funny. I was like, Oh, it’s all saved. Christina: It’s wild. Brett: how many of those blue, um, trifold windows 95 CD holders did you guys have with the, [01:00:00] each one with its own serial number on it that you had to type in? Christina: I only had one, but, um, or, or, yeah, cause I had one for 195 and then I had one, I guess, for 98. And then, but I had a bunch for XP. Um, I had a bunch for XP and, and, and, and it was, um, green for home and it was, um, blue for pro. Because that was the first time they’ve needed that. Brett: and you could buy like a five pack on like eBay Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: know how legit they were, but Christina: I mean, they were fine enough. Look, the, the key that I use. Brett: collections of the Christina: Yeah. I was going to say I use that, that one windows 95 key. Um, we find it, um, uh, five key. Um, it’s famous. It’s like the, um, um, what should we call it? Um, Brett: God mode. Christina: yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. , the quintessential, uh, Windows XP key, uh, was, uh, was, was the one like that, like everybody used for forever. Uh, that was leaked from like the, the gold master [01:01:00] or whatever. And like everybody used that key, um, for, for years. And then finally like in like 2005 or something like Microsoft finally like banned it, but you know. It, it, it worked for a really, really long time. Jeff: That’s awesome. Uh, by the way, just real quick. I’m on the Lotus one, two, three Wikipedia page. And there’s a, there’s an image for a sample macro. And the image is actually a picture of a, of like a yellowing dot matrix printout of macros code. Christina: FCKGW. Sorry. Sorry. FCKGW. That was, that was the Brett: I remember this. Jeff: Awesome. Brett: All right. Jeff: Oh, can we do a, can we do a whole episode one time? Like it’s 19, like say 92 and we could just not acknowledge anything that came after it, Christina: No, I love that idea. I love that idea. Like genuinely I’m, I’m, I’m completely there, right? Like Jeff: All right. All right. Christina: music, TV, movies, computing. Jeff: tech podcast. Christina: Oh my Jeff: Oh, that’s our new podcast. The earliest tech podcast. Christina: tech podcast. [01:02:00] That would actually be really, really fun to just, to just go back to a day in time and be like, let’s react as let’s react to what the news was at the time and like, talk about those things as if we have no idea what’s Brett: and yeah, not acknowledge any, like we can be awed by, you know, like, like 256 megabyte hard drives. Christina: Yeah, no, because we shit we would be right. Like in 1992, that Jeff: I don’t even know why they call these floppy disks, they’re not floppy Christina: They’re not floppy. Who would ever need more than 1. 44 megabytes ever? Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Remember when a floppy was floppy? Christina: Yeah. Jeff: Anyway. Alright. Christina: games are, I don’t know, man. They’re, I don’t know if this technology is going to take off. Jeff: Alright, I’m in. Alright. Get Some Sleep Brett: I gotta I gotta quit while I’m still Jeff: Brett, good luck. Brett: have to edit this Jeff: it slow. Brett: Yeah, we’ll try. Um Thanks you guys. Good to see you. We might be on break might be on break for a couple weeks here We’ll find out we’ll see we’ll see who shows up next week. Maybe none of us. All right. Love you Jeff: [01:03:00] Alright. Yeah, you too. Get some sleep.

Brett and Christina return from their hiatus with a chaotic blend of health updates, travel tales, and tech talk. Brett opens up about his struggles with Dysautonomia and the labyrinth of healthcare, while Christina shares her whirlwind travel experiences from Salt Lake City to Rome. They dive into the marvels of AI, revealing how even rabbis can now build apps with ChatGPT. Brett extols a scheduling app that ensures he never misses a meeting, despite his notorious forgetfulness. Plus, the nightmare of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich wreaking havoc on a brand-new MacBook keyboard. Expect tech-savvy insights, a bit of health drama, and a lot of catching up. Sponsor 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM can’t . It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entra, and in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password.com/overtired. Show Links Spanish Prisoner Out of Sight Copilot Cookbook Cursor mise Brett’s Giveaways Brett’s Favorites Lists In Your Face Acorn Chapters 00:00 Welcome Back! 01:36 Brett’s Health Struggles 16:03 Christina’s Travel Adventures 22:09 Movie Talk: Heist Films and More 28:02 AI and Privacy Concerns 37:50 Introducing Copilot Chat Cookbook 38:19 New Free Version of Copilot 39:18 Model Switching in Copilot Pro 40:12 Multi-Edit Feature in VS Code 40:46 Sponsor Shoutout: 1Password 42:12 Switching to Mise for Version Management 44:51 AI and App Development 50:35 GrAPPtitude: InYourFace App 52:28 GrAPPtitude: Acorn 8 58:47 Challenges of Modern Blogging 01:01:10 New Terminal Emulator: Ghosty 01:02:45 MacBook Pro M4 and Storage Woes 01:13:20 Upcoming Events and Farewell Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

Brett’s back from death’s door with dizziness and newfound medical theories, while Jeff scores a major mental health milestone by conquering his driveway chaos. They dive deep into VPNs, Tor, and Signal for all you privacy freaks, and Jeff finally finds love in Obsidian without burning out. It’s part health scare, part tech geek-out, with a side of weighted vests and shooting skeet in Wisconsin. Sponsor 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM can’t . It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entra, and in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password.com/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Hosts 00:25 Brett’s Health Struggles 01:24 Discovering Ehlers Danlos Syndrome 03:05 Navigating the Medical System 21:04 Mental Health Corner 30:03 Sponsor: 1Password 32:00 Upcoming Guest and Book Discussion 33:32 The Weighted Hug and Moonboy 34:34 Fashion Designer’s Unique Project: The Weighted Hug 35:06 Experiencing the Weighted Hug 36:37 Promoting the Weighted Hug 38:50 Discussion on Wisconsin and Politics 41:15 Guns and Personal Safety 49:45 GrAPPtitude Picks: Privacy and Productivity Apps 01:04:22 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Show Links Ehlers-Danlos syndrome Weighted Hug TOR Browser Signal Obsidian A Card-based layout for linkding Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript I Can’t Follow Beautiful [00:00:00] Introduction and Hosts [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, you listening to Overtired, I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Jeff Severns Guntzel. Christina is on her usual, uh, tour of the world right now. I think she’s in Chicago this week? [00:00:18] Jeff: Yeah, or Rome, or Latvia, or Upper Sandusky. Who’s to say? [00:00:22] Brett: yeah, who knows. Um, That girl gets around. [00:00:25] Brett’s Health Struggles [00:00:25] Brett: So, um, I missed last week. I apologize. I will talk about why in the mental health corner. Um, but Jeff, how are you? [00:00:37] Jeff: doing good. I like how you apologized. The guy’s been on death’s door. Not exactly. But like, sorry everybody, I was passing out and having really one of the worst times health wise of my life. I’m really sorry to all of you that [00:00:49] Brett: Sorry for the inconvenience, everybody. [00:00:52] Jeff: Christina and I, and it was really Christina at the top of the last episode, suggested people call you, uh, like, um, Message you with [00:01:00] unsolicited medical advice. [00:01:00] Did you get any of that? I know you [00:01:02] Brett: So much. Some of it, some of it ended up being really helpful and actually led to discovering what’s going on. [00:01:10] Jeff: And that’s the problem with unsolicited medical advice that no one [00:01:13] Brett: Sometimes. [00:01:14] Jeff: is that there’s usually something hits. [00:01:19] Brett: Um, I, I, yeah, yeah, let’s talk about it. [00:01:24] Discovering Ehlers Danlos Syndrome [00:01:24] Brett: So, um, I have realized, so I had these symptoms, um, new symptoms where I was dizzy all the time, still am, uh, like constant lightheadedness, and then I started just Passing out. [00:01:40] Um, and it was always shortly after an orthostatic change, meaning sitting up or from like lying down or seated. [00:01:49] Jeff: pause, orthostatic change. That’s new for me. Listeners. Is that new for you? [00:01:55] Brett: Yeah. Uh, friend of the show, Harold Kockelmeyer, I [00:02:00] think that’s how you say his last name, um, said he was very disappointed when he learned that orthostatic meant, uh, position changes and not a skeleton that couldn’t move. Um, because he’s very, yeah, he’s, he’s very much a linguist and, and immediately wanted to dissect the term. [00:02:19] Um, we, we love you, I love you. I don’t know about everybody [00:02:23] Jeff: I would probably like you, you’ve got a great name. Both of them. And together especially. [00:02:28] Brett: we might have some mixed feelings. I don’t know. I love him. I love him. He’s a great guy. Um, so anyways, uh, like I, I suddenly started fading. I’ve been to the emergency room three times in the last couple of weeks. Um, one time minor concussion, two times, just like, Hey, what the fuck’s going on? Um, and no results. [00:02:50] All my tests came back negative. Uh, my heart came back negative. My blood pressure came back. Positive, like, uh, like, fine, [00:03:00] everything, all my blood tests were within range, no explanations offered. [00:03:05] Navigating the Medical System [00:03:05] Brett: Um, I had an echocardiogram because my doctor was convinced it must be my heart, although my doctor was convinced it must be my psychiatric meds, and he kept telling me, I can’t help you, go talk to your psychiatrist. [00:03:18] Jeff: your carpenter was convinced it must be wood rot. [00:03:22] Brett: Well, and my psychiatrist was like, this is none of the meds you’re taking on, you’re taking, explain what is happening to you. So I kept going back and forth and eventually, um, I learned from all of this unsolicited advice about Ehlers Danlos syndrome. And, um, it actually came to kind of a, uh, a breaking point when I was talking to a therapist and they were like, Can you touch your thumb to your wrist? [00:04:00] Can you do this? We’re doing this on video. Um, um, and I was like, sure, no problem. And, and they were like, yeah, normal people can’t do that. That’s called hypermobility. Um, it’s a sign of a connective tissue disorder, such as Ehlers Danlos. Um, which is often comorbid with something called POTS, which I can’t remember what it stands for, but it’s what makes you pass out when you stand up. [00:04:25] Um, and, um, All of these things individually, the symptoms are somewhat manageable, like POTS, like the solution is to drink way more water than your average human, increase your sodium intake, and wear compression socks. And with all that, sure, you’ll pass out once in a while, but maybe less. Um, the lightheadedness, I think, can be managed with medication. [00:04:53] But all of this Like, all the symptoms fit, and the interesting thing about it is, I’ve had some symptoms [00:05:00] for 20 years, such as GI issues and sleep disorders, um, and all of these can also fit into the EDS slash, um, uh, dysautonomic disorders in general. Um, so I finally have one thing that connects like everything that’s always been wrong with me. [00:05:23] Um, and, and a reason for everything. However, I can’t get a diagnosis until I get genetic testing. And my primary care physician is like, eh, let’s do an MRI first and see after like putting me through all the heart stuff. Now he’s like, let’s make sure it’s not neurological. And I’m like, just give me a referral to Mayo for genetic testing. [00:05:47] Cause I’m pretty sure I’ve got this licked at this point, like solved. And he is just ignoring everything I’m saying. So I’m switching primary care to. Gunderson [00:06:00] in the hopes that they’ll get me into Mayo [00:06:02] Jeff: Everybody in Minnesota just went, Gunderson, of course. [00:06:09] Brett: Well, I mean, my goal is Mayo. Uh, [00:06:11] Jeff: every fifth person you meet here, if they’re white, every fifth white person you meet is a Gunderson. [00:06:16] Brett: yeah. [00:06:17] Jeff: that’s more what I’m saying. [00:06:18] Brett: Yeah, well, Gunderson has a clinic in Winona, so it’s super convenient for me. Um, their doctors are here less frequently than if I were in, say, La Crosse, Wisconsin. Um, but I can get some care that way without having to drive 45 minutes every time. Mayo, which is, uh, for anyone unfamiliar, a premier medical institution in the United States. [00:06:44] Jeff: sure we have a few Saudi princes in our listenership, and they already know about Mayo, because that city is partly funded by Saudi princes. Anyway, [00:06:53] Brett: Well, it’s where they go for their, for their surgeries and [00:06:56] Jeff: I know. [00:06:58] Brett: yeah, it is, it is top [00:07:00] notch and it’s only 45 minutes away from me. Um, so if I can get in there, I can get the, the best genetic testing available in the country, um, and the best, uh, geneticists to interpret the results. Um, Interestingly, and we’ll get off this topic eventually, but I have a lot to say, I’ve discovered a lot, um, uh, a friend, I, I don’t know how public they want to be, so we’ll just say a friend of mine who is, um, a very Good Mac developer has a partner who, uh, referred to themselves as an FOAF, um, friend of a friend, um, and, and he had to, he had to message me privately to go, this FOAF is actually my partner, but, um, They went through a similar path, but they were so, [00:08:00] um, motivated that when they did their genetic testing, they went and got a certificate from Harvard in genetics [00:08:09] Jeff: Oh, [00:08:10] Brett: their own results. [00:08:12] Um, and have you? [00:08:15] Jeff: No. [00:08:15] Brett: Oh, [00:08:17] Jeff: I have so many doctorates, like, when I had diarrhea once, PhD topic. [00:08:25] Brett: yeah, but anyway, like she went whole hog and like, and really like self advocated to an amazing extent. And she is offering her expertise to me as I, as I navigate this, but this is a permanent condition that I apparently have had my whole life. Some symptoms are new, but, um, I am going to be. It’s a bummer, like, I think my whole life I’ve always had this vision of like, someday I’ll be in shape, someday I’ll be like an [00:09:00] active, healthy person, someday, like, I just gotta do things right. [00:09:04] If I just do it better, I’ll be a better person. And now I have to come to the conclusion that I will never be that. whole active healthy person that I always just imagined someday I would get to. I’m 46 now, like that dream was slipping to begin with, but now, now I’m officially disabled. Now I can officially get disability from the US government for however long, for however long that government lasts. [00:09:33] Um, but, uh, Like, if I get this diagnosis, I’m, I am disabled. And that is a, that is a hard term to come to terms with for me. Um, I don’t like being helpless. I don’t like being, um, dependent on other people. But for the last couple of weeks, I’ve been extremely dependent on Elle. Um, like this is one of the few times I’ve been down to my [00:10:00] office just because I’ve been so dizzy. [00:10:01] It’s been scary to take the stairs. Um, and yeah, so. On the plus side, getting a diagnosis means I can get better care. Um, and I have, and I have a name to put to everything that’s wrong with me. Uh, which would be a relief in some senses. But also, I gotta, I gotta admit, um, I’m kind of broken. [00:10:26] Jeff: Broken over this, or you’re, you’re calling this disability broken? [00:10:31] Brett: I’m calling myself as a human being, a broken human being. Um, [00:10:36] Jeff: say more about what that, what you mean [00:10:38] Brett: it’s, it’s a very ableist way to look at, um, feeling, uh, disabled. Um, it’s, uh, like, I have a bunch of kind of ableist preconceptions about the way I should be, uh, the way a human should be to be, like, [00:11:00] correct. And it is, it’s not, I’m not proud to be an ableist at all, um, and I’ve worked hard to kind of curb, um, curb that through education, um, and understanding of my disabled friends and, and the disabled people I meet. [00:11:17] Um, I just never considered myself one of. Um, I had this very much like, well, it’s great to be supportive of the disabled and like I go out of my way to make like my websites and my products like accessible to disabled people. Um, and like, it’s always been important to me. I just, I don’t know, it’s, it’s hard for me to accept that, that I have a disability and it’s not even a huge one. [00:11:48] It’s not like I lost my sight or I’m, I’m losing my sense of. Touch. Um, [00:11:55] Jeff: How so? [00:11:56] Brett: like for the last 10 years, I haven’t been able to feel [00:12:00] anything in my, in the tips of my thumb and first few fingers. Um, like I had to pretty much give up playing guitar because I can’t feel a pick in my hand. Um, and typing, like I have to, I have to use mechanical keyboards now because I can only feel the touch. [00:12:18] Edges of the keys with the pads of my fingers, um, and typing on a low profile keyboard with the pads of your fingers is really messy, uh, so a mechanical gives me a little more, uh, leeway for mistypes, uh, when I can’t feel the, the home row, um, and that seems to be you. That is a symptom and it seems to be spreading, um, and I don’t know how long I’ll be able to easily pick things up or tie my shoes, um, I, I don’t, I, I can’t predict the future, I don’t know where that goes, but I didn’t, I didn’t lose my sight, I didn’t lose my [00:13:00] hearing, I didn’t lose a limb, um, like I’m not disabled in the common, um, easily perceived ways, I’m disabled in like an invisible way. [00:13:12] Like I might look like a healthy, normal human being, but my skin’s on fire all the time. This is a weird thing I’ve realized. Like there’s this feeling that I, I have of like, I call it skin crawliness and it’s this kind of light burning on my skin and I have always associated it with withdrawal and anytime it gets. [00:13:39] Anytime it gets strong, I’m like, Oh, I need more of whatever, you know, heroin or alcohol or coffee or whatever, nicotine, whatever I feel might be lacking. Or I think maybe I missed my medication and, um, I have always associated with that. And to be fair, like, uh, especially opiates [00:14:00] do Settle it down. So it seems like, oh yeah, that was withdrawal and what I did work. [00:14:06] But what I’m realizing now is I pretty much always feel like that. Like I feel like that right now. Um, and it is, it’s a pain that I have lived with for at least 30 years and I just never recognized it as any kind of. Um, actual pain. I always thought it was my fault, like, for being addicted to this or that. [00:14:31] And this is just the price I pay. Um, but it’s not. It’s actually like a constant pain that most of the time I can just ignore. Um, It, I forget where I was going with this particular thread, but, um, but I, it is, I am, oh, it’s an invisible, it’s an invisible disability. Like you can’t see that I’m, that my fucking skin hurts, that, that my bone [00:15:00] hurts, that I always have a headache. [00:15:02] Um, like you can’t see that about me. Um, and like I have spent years not admitting I was in pain. [00:15:10] Jeff: Mm hmm. [00:15:11] Brett: And so this is all, I don’t know, man, it’s a different world all of a sudden. [00:15:17] Jeff: Yeah, everything changes when you can name a thing too, right? Like it’s, and sometimes that’s a good change, sometimes it’s not. It sounds like for you it’s a mixed change, right? It’s like, well, on the one hand, I have a name for this thing. On the other hand, I have this thing now and I can know more about it because it has a name and I don’t love what I’m learning about it. [00:15:39] Brett: maybe I can get better treatment instead of going to doctors and telling them something is wrong and having them say, no, it’s not. [00:15:44] Jeff: I had, I went, I have this funny, so I also, I mean, we’ve talked about this. I, I’ve dealt with just fucking exhausting chronic pain since I was young. And, And, uh, but I also have all these weird little tweaks. So I have this weird thing, I’m [00:16:00] getting this, I promise I’m going to connect this, where both of my calf muscles, if I’m just laying down, or if I am sitting down and I kick my ankle up on my other knee, and I can see my calf, my calf muscles are always twitching, but it’s not just twitching. [00:16:11] It looks like there’s a, there’s a Facehugger in there that’s about to come out. Like, it looks like when, when, when my, when my wife had, had babies in her stomach and they would kind of move across. That’s what it looks like. I’ve confirmed with lots of people that it’s super freaky. I’ve asked many doctors. [00:16:28] They, they just don’t even try. They don’t get curious. But I asked a neurologist recently, this is what she said. Some people are just twitchy. And I was like, you know what? That’s actually the best response I’ve gotten for this, because I am fucking twitchy. [00:16:42] Brett: Well, you just said, like, they don’t get curious. And that’s been driving me nuts because I’ve seen between the ER and, and, Specialists, I’ve seen no fewer than 12 doctors in the last month, and like, none of them seem curious, and I keep [00:17:00] saying, like, this has all gotta be connected, like, there’s gotta be something, and not one of them has been like, oh yeah, we should do some genetic testing, we should see if there’s a syndrome that explains all of this, not, like, it was right there. [00:17:14] We, Elle and I founded it on the internet. You know, without that much trouble. And it just like the medical community just doesn’t seem all that curious. [00:17:27] Jeff: I have a good friend whose kid was exhibiting just really, like, sudden and very unusual behaviors, and they were actually kind of scaring them as a young kid. And, um, Brought him to doctors, didn’t know, didn’t know. Then finally like, they had delayed for a long time googling anything, and then they’re like, fuck it, I’m, I can’t sleep, I’m worried, I can’t, I gotta figure it out. [00:17:44] And they found this very, very bizarre potential explanation for what was wrong. They brought that to their doctor who, who fortunately was willing to kind of take that in and think about it. And, uh, And it was this completely bizarre, super rare thing. And I, I speak as a, as a guy who’s the [00:18:00] father of a kid with ms. [00:18:01] And, and boy, the odds of having pediatric diagnosis of MS are, I mean, they change the way I think of odds forever, right? But like with doctors, I. I always just assumed, I think, growing up, that curiosity is what leads one to be a doctor. And I know there’s all kinds of reasons. I know that there’s cultural pressures. [00:18:20] I know there’s like family pressures. I know there’s like a need to, to seem of a certain kind of value that that that lends you. But But like, it has not been my experience with people who are doctors that they come in first and foremost curious, and it doesn’t even feel like they lost it. You know what I mean? [00:18:37] Like a, like somebody who comes into a profession like teaching and they’ve got this great attitude and all this stuff, but then they just get destroyed by it because it’s a very hard thing. With doctors sometimes I’m just like, were you ever curious? Cause you are literally, the area of things that you know about is the stuff that I hang the biggest question marks on. [00:18:55] I just don’t want to go to medical school, but like, I am amazed. [00:19:00] And I’m sorry if there are doctors out there that are like, you’re full of shit. I’m definitely not like, I definitely, I mean, I think if there’s one thing I have a radar for, it’s people who are incurious. [00:19:09] Brett: sure. [00:19:09] Jeff: Because those are the people I can’t spend five minutes around. [00:19:13] Um, and, uh, so anyway, I’m sorry that you’re going through that. This is actually a long way of me saying I’m really sorry that you’re going through that in such a high stakes moment where you have questions that are, that are scary. The answers, not having the answer is scary. Wondering that there might be an answer is scary, right? [00:19:30] Like, it’s just fucking scary. [00:19:33] Brett: Yeah. I did. I did want to say I had one doctor in. ER. Um, he, the doctor that was there when I got to ER, his shift ended and this other doctor came in and the nurse was like, Oh, you’re going to love him. He’s, he’s just, he’s super charismatic. Yeah. And, and the guy came in, Asian guy, big smile, um, started looking at my test results and I kept going, [00:20:00] wow. [00:20:00] Oh, wow. And then he started ordering like bizarre tests because he really, he was curious. He’s like, what does this mean? And honestly, like, if I could have him as my primary care physician, I might be closer to getting what I want out of the medical system. Anyway, yeah. [00:20:21] Jeff: Yeah. That’s, that’s really amazing. That’s what I want. And I realize that’s a lot to ask of a person, but I feel like doctors, I’m realizing right now a little bit how I feel about like cops and soldiers, which is like, you come at me and say, I am this way because look at what I have to deal with every day. [00:20:35] And I go, you fucking signed up for this. Like you can get out anytime. And I know that might mean you lose income might mean you’re in a really confused place, but like, that’s better than fucking people up. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don’t know. I don’t mean to take such an incredibly hard line, but like, I just don’t have patience for that, where it’s like, yeah, but you don’t understand what it’s like. [00:20:54] It’s like, okay, cool. You signed up for it. Like, I’ve quit a lot of jobs. [00:21:00] I’ve even quit professions. Anyway. [00:21:04] Mental Health Corner [00:21:04] Brett: So, how’s your mental health, Jeff? [00:21:06] Jeff: Oh, man, I’m, I, uh, [00:21:08] Brett: I guess this is a health slash mental health corner. [00:21:11] Jeff: yeah, I’m, I’m good. Um, my, my My son, who’s at college, is, I’m picking him up at the airport in a little bit, um, coming home for Thanksgiving break, and that is just going to be fantastic and amazing. Um, and, uh, And I continue to, I’ve talked about this in a couple episodes, but, you know, I’ve been digging out from a really unbelievable and singular in my life Manic episode in October of 2021, where I acquired a lot, and I’ve been digging out from that for a long time. [00:21:43] And I, I have hit more milestones in that in the last two weeks. Um, then certainly at any point and, and even like, maybe don’t even put it that way, but like I have unstuck things that were starting to feel permanently stuck and [00:22:00] were causing me a great deal of pain and despair. Um, because I felt like, why, cause like this acquisition, which I cannot understate. [00:22:10] overstate how much I acquired in the land of old tools in this one month. Um, what is so hard about it is I haven’t acquired anything since that episode. So I am still dealing with when I have the ability, it’s not that I don’t have the time, I’ve had the time to dig out of it, but I have a full time job. [00:22:31] I’m a parent. It’s mostly out in the garage. It was in my sort of driveway, which is sort of an enclosed area because I’m in the city. It’s in the back and whatever. Um, but like, uh, yeah, so I’m like, I’m, yeah, I have, I’ve had all the time in the world, but when something like that, happens, or at least when it happened to me, it, it broke me, um, to use your word, uh, it changed my sense of self. [00:22:55] It changed my identity. Um, it made me not trust myself and I’ve [00:23:00] always trusted myself, um, in like really important ways. I mean, part of it was just like, I grew up, you know, like pretty much hanging on my own and figuring things out for myself. And so, and I had to trust myself. And so I, I just do. And that kind of broke that. [00:23:12] And it also broke like my sense of how I’m being received by other people. Cause when you’re, when you’re as manic as I was, You kind of know, but you don’t know. And until someone tells you, this is really fucking hard for me, or you seem really not okay. And that’s a big surprise. It was in that moment. [00:23:30] And I haven’t had an episode like that since and never had had one before. Um, but I, but what, what had been so hard all these years is, um, so I have like, okay, I live in the city. Um, I have a driveway in the alley, but I actually have an unusual kind of like, compound. I initially named it after Osama Bin Laden’s compound, but my, my family before I didn’t, um, but I thought it’s the only compound I know a name of. [00:23:57] Um, but anyway, uh, I [00:24:00] have this really interesting situation where it’s like, it’s a two car garage attached to what had been a single family home, like just 12 by 24 feet, very small. And, um, And I had pretty much like filled that up, but also overflowed into my driveway. So there was just always for years, these last years, there’s been stuff covered in tarps and all this stuff. [00:24:21] And what sucked about it so much was that it was so visible to any of my neighbors driving through the alley. So like my, Illness was so visualized in ways that I was almost helpless to reduce in any meaningful way. It was just always a little bit there. And I, at some point I was like, you know, what sucks about this is that most mostly other ways that I might be Not well, or, you know, broken permanently or temporarily. [00:24:50] It’s not on display and there’s not a data visualization for it. And, and with this, you know, neighbors would come over, what’s going on over here? They’d seen in my [00:25:00] garage and I’d like quick want to close it or whatever. It’s the worst feeling, worst feeling. And, and so, um. Yeah, that was what was unusual about that particular I’ve had different diagnoses over my life, but those are all things that exist inside me, inside my closest relationships, are usually not terribly, uh, you know, outwardly presented, right? [00:25:19] But this was a thing where, like, I had, I felt like I had no control to fully control it even over, like, two years or three years. And so I didn’t have a way to, you For people to know I’m okay now. Um, and that, that was something I badly wanted. Like I, especially just, I like my neighbors and, and so, and I know what it would look like to me if I was on the outside. [00:25:43] I’d feel a little bad for that guy, you know, like that guy kind of seems like he’s kind of messed up. And sometimes your neighbors don’t know you, but from the alley, right? Like, so yeah, like we’re, we’re, we’re like, we get along, we talk a lot, but like, David. Never been in my house, you know what I mean? So it’s like, they don’t know that in my house, it’s a nice, clean, warm [00:26:00] place. [00:26:00] And that, you know, I have an easy demeanor, and I’m not just like causing chaos, whatever. So anyway, um, I hit a milestone, which is maybe only understandable to me, which is that, um, Winter’s coming, as they say, um, in TV. And, uh, and as we know as Minnesotans and others, maybe in, in cold climates, like when winter’s coming, you have prep to do. [00:26:24] If you have a house, you got to get the yard ready. You got to get those leaves out of the way. You got to move shit that you don’t want to be frozen to the ground for the entire season. And for the first time in four years, I did my prep and, and there’s nothing under tarps in my driveway. There’s nothing. [00:26:39] It just looks like a. Wonderful home. And with a garden and a [00:26:44] Brett: That is a milestone. [00:26:45] Jeff: it’s a huge milestone. And I hit it, I only realized it because it was, it was rain, and it was gonna rain and hadn’t rained in forever. And usually when it rains, I’m like, Oh, shit, it’s raining. I’m very attuned to the weather, because I need to go out and cover shit up or whatever, you know, so it doesn’t get wet.[00:27:00] [00:27:00] And I started to rain. I’m like, I could do rain prep. And I walked outside and I’m like, I don’t have any rain prep to do. And that was such an incredible moment for me. Um, so, in that sense, mental health is, is, uh, that’s a good, that’s a stop on my mental health [00:27:16] Brett: Yeah, that’s awesome. [00:27:18] Jeff: it’s, [00:27:19] Brett: I do want to push back on the leaves thing. [00:27:22] Jeff: oh yeah, no, I don’t mean to say you have to clean your leaves up, because you should leave some of them for bug [00:27:27] Brett: Yeah, exactly. [00:27:28] Jeff: Yeah, I knew that’s where you were going. [00:27:30] Brett: it’s really good for, for non mosquito type bugs [00:27:34] Jeff: Again, I have what is essentially a four car parking lot behind my house, it’s the nobody who lives in a city can imagine this is possible, but like, that’s what was covered in leaves, I leave the [00:27:44] Brett: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. The yard [00:27:46] Jeff: that only I only learned that a couple years lay it out, Brett, lay for those of, you know, those of us out there that are dying to know. [00:27:54] I [00:27:54] Brett: Oh, I actually don’t know that many details. I just know that things like the decline in lightning bug [00:28:00] populations are largely due to people’s lawn maintenance routines. Um, I personally would love a lawn I didn’t even have to cut, but we leave our leaves Out, um, and let them decompose because it’s supposed to be good for pollinators and for lightning bugs and their ilk. [00:28:21] Um, and we grow a lot of, uh, pollinator friendly, like our, most of our lawn is covered in Creeping Charlie. Do you know what that is? [00:28:30] Jeff: love it because I don’t give a shit about having a nice yard, but I do like it to be green. And Creeping Charlie just makes it that everyone’s trying to get rid of it. I’m like, that’s my green. I don’t have to mow the lawn. [00:28:39] Brett: want, I want the whole lawn to be Creeping Charlie, um, like, I, I like the idea of like a wildflower lawn, but even that takes more work than I want to put in. Creeping Charlie is hardy, it doesn’t grow vertically, it grows horizontally, and it may, it’s great for pollinators, it’s great for insect life, uh, the deer love it, [00:29:00] um, [00:29:01] Jeff: Yeah. [00:29:02] Brett: the deer love it almost as much as they love our hostas, um, but yeah, it’s, I, I, I don’t think, the idea of the manicured American lawn raked of all leaves and trimmed down to, you know, an inch and a half, uh, like, and constantly clippings disposed of, like, that’s just not the way that nature wants to be. [00:29:29] And we’ve already built enough concrete, you know, we’ve taken enough nature away, why take the lawns away too? [00:29:37] Jeff: I see you, Jonny Mitchell. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, so in our neighborhood, it’s just, over the last few years, it’s become just kind of a known thing that there’s a certain date after which you rake your leaves up after snow melts, but you leave them. Leave them. You leaf them for a certain period of time because of just all of the sort of the ecosystem that exists under there is not ready to be exposed to the [00:30:00] elements. [00:30:00] Brett: Yeah, that’s awesome. [00:30:02] Jeff: Yeah. [00:30:03] Sponsor: 1Password [00:30:03] Brett: Um, all right, should we take a quick sponsor break? [00:30:06] Jeff: Let’s do it. [00:30:07] Brett: All right. This week’s sponsor is 1Password. Imagine your company’s security like the quad of a college campus. There are nice brick paths between the buildings. Those are the company owned devices, IT approved apps, and managed employee identities. [00:30:23] And then there are the paths that people actually use. The shortcuts worn through the grass that are actually, actually the straightest line from point A to point B. Point B, those are unmanaged devices, shadow IT apps, and non employee identities such as contractors. Most security tools only work on those happy brick paths, but a lot of security problems take place on the shortcuts. [00:30:45] 1Password Extended Access Management is the first security solution that brings all of these unmanaged devices, apps, and identities under your control. It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is [00:31:00] known and healthy, and every app is visible. 1Password Extended Access Management solves problems that traditional IAM and MDM can’t. [00:31:09] It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entra. And in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password. com slash overtired. That’s one, the number one password. com slash overtired. Uh, and thanks again to 1password for keeping us on the air. [00:31:34] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn’t be on the air. I wouldn’t even show up to this fucking shit show. [00:31:44] Brett: Well, [00:31:45] Jeff: the sponsors that keep me here. [00:31:47] Brett: be fair on weeks, we don’t have sponsors. We do take time off. [00:31:51] Jeff: Mostly. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And to be fair, that’s not because we’re spending all the money we made on the sponsor episodes. [00:31:59] Brett: Check [00:32:00] it out. [00:32:00] Upcoming Guest and Book Discussion [00:32:00] Brett: So, every once in a while we have guests, and you have an exciting guest coming up for us. Um, I got a galley copy of a new book today, uh, that is this author’s first foray into cyberpunk, [00:32:16] Jeff: Hmm. [00:32:17] Brett: and it’s like a queer cyberpunk murder mystery set in the future, um, and it’s got like a dry set [00:32:26] Jeff: set in like 1867. [00:32:28] Brett: a steampunk, it’s not a steampunk mystery, [00:32:30] Jeff: I know, I just assumed it was the future is my [00:32:33] Brett: I know, it was a bit redundant, um, I uh, but like as soon as I started reading it, I contacted the publicist and I was like, hey, I have this shitty little show where we swear a lot and we don’t make family friendly episodes and we have a pretty Niche audience, but would this author have any interest in joining us for a conversation? [00:32:57] Um, and I was like, queer, tech, sci [00:33:00] fi, like, it’s, it’s our, it’s our wheelhouse. So, I haven’t heard back yet, but if, if you’re cool with it, I, I would love it. I would, this Corey, Corey something, um, I, well, I’ll do a much better job of promoting it, um, if, if we score the [00:33:18] Jeff: We’re really happy to have a special guest today. Is Corey something? Say hello. [00:33:22] Brett: but yeah, like, I’m, I’m a chapter in on the book and it’s, it’s well written. I’m excited to find some new cyberpunk in my life, so, [00:33:31] Jeff: Awesome. That’s [00:33:32] The Weighted Hug and Moonboy [00:33:32] Brett: um, I also got to tell you about the Weighted Hug. I have a, [00:33:36] Jeff: Sounds good. [00:33:37] Brett: I have a [00:33:38] Jeff: like a fucking terrible band. [00:33:40] Brett: I have a friend who goes by, I have a friend who goes by the name Moonboy, um, around town, he’s known as Moonboy, [00:33:48] Jeff: Moonboy in a terrible band? Sorry, Moonboy. I’m [00:33:51] Brett: he is, he is not, yeah, he runs like, or he’s, he’s phasing his involvement out, but for a long time he ran, uh, the Queer Dance [00:34:00] Night at a local bar, um, and he grew up in the same kind of, Uh, repressive religious environment I did and came out just an amazingly, uh, healthy, queer, uh, human being who is infinitely kind and empathetic and understanding and I, he’s just an amazing human being. [00:34:26] Um. [00:34:27] Jeff: time and takes a joke about bad bands. [00:34:34] Fashion Designer’s Unique Project: The Weighted Hug [00:34:34] Brett: but he is also a fashion designer and, um, sews his own clothes and like just fantastic stuff. And he, for years now, has been working on this project called the Weighted Hug. And it’s basically like a flak jacket, um, filled with, you know, Weights. I don’t know exactly what he weights it with, but it’s like a [00:35:00] padded vest that weighs maybe 70 pounds. [00:35:05] Jeff: Did you get one? [00:35:06] Experiencing the Weighted Hug [00:35:06] Brett: Yeah, I did. Um, I went to his, I went to his like, um, his launch party and it was [00:35:13] Jeff: is someone in Winona. [00:35:15] Brett: yeah, it was a nice little gathering. Um, maybe 50 people, uh, invite only. Um, and he did like a fashion show. He had like a sweep with lights and he had mannequins and he got up and gave a great speech. And. It is a really fun little city. [00:35:33] Um, uh, he had multiple iterations of the vest there for people to try on. Um, and I was skeptical cause like, it sounds like, you know, the kind of thing that might be of use to autistic people, like a real Temple Grand kind of invention. And, and I was like, I’ll give it a shot. And so I’m at this noisy party, um, and I deal okay with noise stimulation [00:36:00] for a limited time. [00:36:01] Uh, but it was definitely getting, [00:36:03] Jeff: are the problem. Heh heh heh. [00:36:05] Brett: it was definitely getting, uh, to a point where my nerves were frying. And I put this vest on and just like immediately my breathing slowed down the noise of the room. It didn’t go away, but it suddenly became like, um, Manageable, uh, for my brain. And I was like, holy shit, I’m getting one of these. [00:36:26] Um, they are 300. They are handmade. It’s not cheap, but honestly, when you see the construction of this thing, it it’s built to last 20 years. [00:36:37] Promoting the Weighted Hug [00:36:37] Brett: Um, so I just wanted to put a bit of a promo out there for Moonboy. Um, the website is, let me double check this to make sure I don’t give a bad address on live. Oh, we’re not live. [00:36:52] Um, [00:36:54] Jeff: heh heh. Surprise! [00:36:57] Brett: yeah, it’s weightedhug. com. [00:37:00] Um, and you can order straight from there. He ships worldwide. Um, yeah. If you live in Southeast Minnesota, he will hand deliver it to you. He showed up at my house with mine. But for anyone outside, uh, yeah, there’s, it’s not a cheap thing to ship. I imagine. I have no idea what shipping costs. [00:37:22] outside of Southeast Minnesota, but I’m totally worth it. If you’re the kind of person who, who responds well to, you know, hugs or weights on your chest or a feeling of being like a weighted blanket, for example, but you want to wear your weighted blanket around the house. Um, this is it’s really good. [00:37:43] Really [00:37:44] Jeff: things. Three things. One, Weighted Hug is a great product name, I stand by it, it’s a terrible band name. Uh, Moonboy, great band name. And then I wanted to ask you, when I imagine putting this on, I imagine neck and shoulder strain. Mm [00:38:00] hmm. [00:38:01] Brett: Um, so I haven’t experienced that. I imagine. Yes. Um, and it is actually really nice to wear like slouching on the couch [00:38:09] Jeff: I was gonna say, maybe it’s not meant necessarily I mean, I assume, like, when you’re you’re right, I was picturing myself at a party, like you described it, being like, but if I’m sittin down, that’s easy. That’s [00:38:19] Brett: no, it, it is, it, it is, it’s a vest and it puts weight on your shoulders. Um, I have, I am very susceptible to neck strain. And I’ve been wearing it for the last couple of days and have not had any aches or pains because of it. Um, that is a very fair question [00:38:41] Jeff: It’s also not a terrible time to have a flak jacket. [00:38:47] Brett: which leads to my grAPPtitude pics, but we’ll hold on to that. [00:38:50] Discussion on Wisconsin and Politics [00:38:50] Jeff: Whenever we’re driving to Indiana with my family and we you’re gonna hate this, anybody who lives in Wisconsin. I actually find Wisconsin a delightful place that is also very beautiful in parts, but [00:39:00] it is It is Wisconsin. And so whenever we cross the border, I say, all right, everybody, Wisconsin, safety’s off. [00:39:09] And now I think I’m just going to say that, you know, [00:39:11] Brett: here’s the thing about Wisconsin is yes, it is, it is gorgeous. [00:39:17] Jeff: It is, it’s gorgeous. You can see why the Germans settled there, too, because it looks like Germany. It’s [00:39:22] Brett: It is just as beautiful as Minnesota, which is a hard thing for Minnesotans to admit because we’re very proud of our natural beauty. Um, [00:39:31] Jeff: admitting it. [00:39:34] Brett: Wisconsin is gorgeous and politically, they are one of the most gerrymandered states. Um, [00:39:42] Jeff: got your Madison. [00:39:44] Brett: Sure, but like the entire state is technically purple. And if every vote were counted in their, uh, state elections, there would be a greater representation of, of the Democratic Party, [00:40:00] um, and even progressive values in Wisconsin. [00:40:03] Wisconsin is not the scary red state that. It appears to be like some of the, some of the best, most liberal, most progressive, most leftist people I know are from Wisconsin. Like it’s, it’s not that scary a state. Um, sure. [00:40:23] Jeff: on what highway you’re on. I’ve definitely, I’ve spent a lot of time in Wisconsin, and this is true of Minnesota, too, I know, but there are points, but the thing that makes it scarier is the addition of of stores that are wholly dedicated to cheese and fudge. I feel like that’s the that’s the element of the unknown that just pushes me into a space of like, I don’t know if I’m safe. [00:40:45] We’ve got all this. They got like a full, full giant Trump sculpture. We’ve got Shit that’s still, um, you still got the fuck Biden stuff well into the Harris campaign, and we got cheese and fudge chops, and gun [00:41:00] shops. Now, I’m going shooting tomorrow, so I’m not just saying, like, you know, guns are definitely bad, and don’t write me. [00:41:06] I’m going skeet shooting, everybody. Settle down. Uh, they aren’t real pigeons. Anyway, that’s enough about me. [00:41:15] Guns and Personal Safety [00:41:15] Brett: I, I have several friends who are, who consider themselves liberal gun owners. Um, and that is. It’s fine with me. Um, I don’t generally have an inclination to own a gun. I do, like, I enjoy skeet shooting. It’s fun. Um, not [00:41:37] Jeff: until a certain point and then it just feels violent and scary. Seriously, I can I can do it for about an hour and then I’m like, I kind of need to stop. [00:41:45] Brett: Yeah. [00:41:46] Jeff: And I love it for that hour. [00:41:48] Brett: I don’t, I don’t want a gun in my house, given our like terrible slide into fascism very quickly. [00:41:57] Well, not quickly. That’s stupid to say. [00:42:00] But like, [00:42:01] Jeff: slide ever. We’ve been on it for [00:42:02] Brett: Slow, slow, and with our eyes closed, we have slid right into fascism, and, like, with the way the cabinet is shaping up, and, like, the steps being taken to ensure, uh, unilateral authoritarian rule, um, things like the, uh, The terrorist, um, uh, bill that they’re trying to pass so they can label any organiz any non profit they don’t agree with, they can label them as terrorist supporting and take away their non profit status, um, and the ability to put journalists, uh, in under unnecessary investigations and shit like that does not lead me to feel safe, um, as, You know, an anarchist leaning leftist. [00:42:53] Um, and I kinda, I could see, I could see having some protection, I guess. [00:42:58] Jeff: A couple things. I don’t think you [00:43:00] slipped into fascism with your eyes closed. I don’t think any Minnesotan slips, slides with their eyes closed. [00:43:05] Brett: I mean, the country [00:43:06] Jeff: Yeah, I got it. Uh, yeah, no, I can’t own a gun. I can’t, I, the idea of having one in my home or even in my garage or whatever it would be, sickens me. [00:43:16] And I have come mostly through a son who really became interested in sort of historical Weapons, and is super demonstrably anti war and anti fascist, so I want to be really clear about that. Not that I have to make that explanation, because you can like guns and that’s just your deal. Um, but, uh, because of him, because my policy with my kids has always been, if you show a intensely strong interest in something, let’s go see about it. [00:43:42] You know, and so it started, you know, we’ve only been shooting three times in five years, but it started, we were in Wyoming. I mean, when in Wyoming, and, and we decided we were going to go try some historic guns. So I asked the guy at the gun range. I’d never been to one. I was wearing a, I was wearing a shirt with a roaring Care Bear and a [00:44:00] rainbow on it and camo pants, not intentionally, this is what I was wearing. [00:44:04] And I said, I want to shoot the rifle that my that my grand, great, great, great, great grandfather would have shot in the Civil War. And then I paused and I said, on the Union side, just because I realized where it was. And, uh, so I got to do that. And, and I actually shot the 1911 handgun that my grandpa would have had at war. [00:44:24] And the reasons I did this, and I don’t feel like I have to justify it, but I, I think it’s really interesting is that I have war in my bloodline. And I can imagine, and I can read, and I can do all of these things to try to understand the experience that these People had, but what I can’t know is how it felt, the tactile feeling of what it is you were carrying and doing. [00:44:49] And so shooting those two guns, I hated shooting in 1911. It just didn’t feel good. And I couldn’t imagine having to wield it to save my life, but I know you get training and I had none. [00:45:00] And then shooting my great great grandmother’s Civil War gun was like everything you assume it is, which is like, how did anybody live? It’s just like, hold on, everybody, I’m shooting, just a second, now I’m loading, wait, just hold on, goddammit! Now I’m pounding it, now I’m blowing down it, I didn’t even know about the blowing down it, that was new to me, I had all the other stuff. But anyway, um, and [00:45:21] Brett: it’s a fucking Nintendo cartridge. [00:45:23] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And both of my boys shot very old guns. [00:45:28] Anyway, I don’t know why I’m going off on this because, but the point is, even though I’ve kind of built a sort of a comfort with it, um, I’m fascinated with them as machines. I know that’s like a cliche to say, but I do rebuild old machines. Um, but all that to say, I can’t, I’m not at a point where I can imagine, when I do imagine having one in the house, it terrifies me. [00:45:49] Like, it [00:45:50] Brett: Isn’t there a history, isn’t there a history of weapons museum in Minneapolis? Have you been [00:45:56] Jeff: I went to one in Wyoming, I haven’t been to one in [00:45:58] Brett: I thought there was one in [00:46:00] Minneapolis or, or maybe north of Minneapolis. There’s like this, it’s a small museum that goes like history of weaponry from like slingshot to trebuchet to swords and spears and uh, into like modern, into like the era of gunpowder and um, It sounds like a fascinating tour. [00:46:24] Um, my home protection is a baseball bat. Um, [00:46:28] Jeff: Which I would also be nervous about wielding. [00:46:31] Brett: I’m pretty comfortable with that. Um, but [00:46:35] Jeff: don’t think I can, I think if I hurt somebody, no matter what they were doing, I would feel awful. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. [00:46:45] Brett: I’m sorry you came into my house at [00:46:47] Jeff: sorry. You came into my, it was a bad decision. We can both agree, but you shouldn’t be hurt for it. You know, I’ve, I’ve, we used to visit death row. I understand. [00:46:55] Brett: I have a friend who just got [00:46:56] Jeff: Sorry. Wait, hold on to anybody who has been through a murder or [00:47:00] something like that. I did not mean to say that lightly because it is not how I think about that stuff. [00:47:03] Anyway, [00:47:04] Brett: I have a friend who just got shot on his like third surgery and [00:47:10] Jeff: shot where? [00:47:11] Brett: in Like, geographically, you’re on his [00:47:14] Jeff: in the body. [00:47:15] Brett: uh, stomach, I think, uh, missed any major organs, but caused enough internal damage, um, that he’s been touch and go for a while, and he doesn’t have transportation, and his parents came to stay with him, he’s I can’t remember where he’s from, but it’s out of the country. [00:47:34] Um, his parents came to stay with them and they also don’t have a vehicle. So they’re like walking a mile to get groceries and carry groceries back home to him. Um, so like he’s part of Elle’s drumming group. And so the drumming group is kind of rallying together to like get him to his doctor’s appointments and stuff. [00:47:56] But, um, yeah, it happens even in small [00:48:00] town. I think he got shot in Wisconsin. We’re right on the border, but [00:48:05] Jeff: Safety’s off! Uh, as if you [00:48:11] Brett: All I know is he’s currently staying in La Crosse, Wisconsin. One of one of America’s drunkest cities. [00:48:19] Jeff: that’s right, exactly, exactly, yeah, I’m sh I’m shot? Put some fudge in there! Sorry, again, not making light, I don’t know this person, I’m still in Wisconsin mode, um, well, okay, let’s get the fuck out of this, cause I just [00:48:36] Brett: Sure. They’re in, in L’s, African drumming group. There are two brown people, um, [00:48:42] Jeff: that’s how African drumming groups go in the Midwest. [00:48:45] Brett: One of, one of them actually from Africa, who is [00:48:48] Jeff: African white person. [00:48:49] Brett: No . Uh, [00:48:51] Jeff: Because that’s the other way those go. [00:48:52] Brett: no. Uh uh, Zimbabwean, I think. Um, but, uh, he got [00:49:00] arrested. during like a mental break um [00:49:06] Jeff: setting me up to make fun? And then you tell me something where I’m like, well, I’m the biggest fucking asshole in the world. You got it. You’re doing something out of order. And I don’t appreciate it. [00:49:16] Brett: but his his court date keeps getting delayed so he’s been i think he’s out of prison now or out of jail now but like he’s he’s It’s affecting his employment and everything. And the other Brown person got shot and is in the hospital and it’s been, it’s been a rough day for the drumming groups. Uh, Brown representation. [00:49:39] Jeff: I don’t need it. I have no comment. I’m just I’m done. I’m done [00:49:45] GrAPPtitude Picks: Privacy and Productivity Apps [00:49:45] Brett: Should we do some grAPPtitude? Should we? [00:49:47] Jeff: Yeah, let’s do it. [00:49:49] Brett: Um, I can kick it off if you would like, [00:49:52] Jeff: Please. [00:49:53] Brett: would that be, would that be [00:49:54] Jeff: Yeah, I need a minute to I am. So hold on. I used to have this problem. And I’ve worked it out through [00:50:00] therapy. But I have a feeling it’s rightly applied here, which is, I’d come home from a party, and I would just lay in bed replaying the tape of what the shit I said. Not drunk, just the shit I said, because I got excited, I was in a social situation, I didn’t know what to do with myself, and I would play it back in horror, but I never had a recording. And so, I just want to ask anybody who’s a regular listener, I think you know me by now. I, I don’t really know what I just did, but, but I know who I am, and I may have slipped a little bit. And, uh, I love everybody. [00:50:39] Brett: Innocent, you’re innocent. I set you up for all of this. [00:50:44] Jeff: Nah, yeah, a person like me can’t be innocent. How German are you enough to be culpable? [00:50:49] That’s been my line for a long time. But again, just let me stop, I gotta dig out. Go GrAPPtitude. Jesus Christ. Everybody? Mind Erase. [00:50:59] Brett: Um, [00:51:00] okay, so, I, again, in light of Politics right now have once again, uh, for the first time in a few years become very privacy obsessed. Um, which is weird for me because I’m a very public person. Um, and I do share way too much on social media and on my blog. Um, but as far as my internet [00:51:25] Jeff: And on your podcast. [00:51:26] Brett: And on my podcast, like, I’m not, I’m not a private person, um, but like, as far as personal data goes, I’ve been, I’ve been using, uh, deletion services, uh, that like, go out and remove your traces from the internet. [00:51:43] Um, things like home address and, uh, and email addresses and things like that. Um, but, uh, so I set up a VPN on my home router. So all traffic in the home is protected and I’ve switched. I’ve been using Nord just because I [00:52:00] already had a subscription to them. And I didn’t, because I had already paid for like a four year, I got a good deal on like a four year plan. [00:52:07] Um, I didn’t bother looking into what their logging practices are, um, and I feel, [00:52:13] Jeff: It’s the thought that counts. [00:52:15] Brett: I feel silly about that, but, um, [00:52:18] Jeff: Anyway, sorry. I didn’t. [00:52:20] Brett: I might, I might consider switching at some point. Uh, my router will let any OpenVPN compatible provider be my home network VPN. But anyway, As a browser, I’m switching to using Tor, the Tor browser, um, which does its own obfuscation of your search, your, your like, uh, your, your travels through the internet, um, and can like onionize even DuckDuckGo searches and, um, and provide a secondary layer of protection. [00:52:54] And it’s based on Firefox. So a lot of my plugins. Um, my [00:53:00] extensions still work. Um, I can use Ghostry and Wacona’s not working, which is a bummer, but, um, and then I was also going to mention Signal, um, for anyone privacy obsessed, Apple Messages is actually pretty good for end to end encryption and, uh, no server logs. [00:53:21] Um, or at least accessible, readable server logs. Um, uh, and WhatsApp is okay, but it’s also owned by Meta, which I inherently distrust, but Signal, um, you can use, you know, it’s donationware, but you can use it for free and, uh, offers very good end to end encryption, disappearing messages, everything you would want for communicating with your anarchist cohorts. [00:53:48] Um, so those are. [00:53:50] Jeff: bandana are you going to wear to the protest? Are you an informant? You can tell me it’s private.[00:54:00] [00:54:01] Brett: You’re killing me, um, yeah, but Tor and Signal, those are my, my dual picks for this week. [00:54:09] Jeff: I use, um, I use Tor to get eBooks. There’s a great service, Anna’s eBooks, I think, whatever it is. Not that I actually download them. I just want to see what is pirateable. You know, and so strictly academic, um, but that’s most, that’s mostly why I’ve fired Tor off lately, but I’m so grateful that it exists. [00:54:31] It’s there for you. [00:54:33] Brett: Yeah. [00:54:33] Jeff: Yeah. [00:54:34] Brett: Are you, are you my friend on Signal? Are we, [00:54:38] Jeff: You only have one friend on signal and you don’t know who it is. [00:54:41] Brett: No. Um, I have like 30 regular conversations going on Signal now. Um, [00:54:48] Jeff: will tell you, uh, I’ll tell you the name of my compound now. It’s a, it’s ab BadBad, uh, and when I, when I signal you ab BadBad, I know that I’m doing it safely, [00:54:57] Brett: there you go, there you go. [00:54:59] Jeff: and that’s how you know it’s me.[00:55:00] [00:55:00] Brett: We’ll keep it private. [00:55:01] Jeff: Yeah, yep yep yep. Woo! Uh, yeah, I’ve been kind of trying to figure out which I want to pick, but, um, I’m going to say, I’m going to say this app, and I want to know, I want everyone to know I’m saying it with a little bit of disdain for the culture around the app, but a little bit of admiration for the corners of the culture around the app. [00:55:24] I, I I have been using, actually in a dedicated, consistent way, for three or four weeks now, I’ve been using Obsidian. I built that up enough, didn’t I? Everyone loves Obsidian, but Jesus Christ, the YouTube sphere on trying to just, just be curious about Obsidian beyond like, look at this! You can have all of your knowledge at one place! [00:55:44] Like, what fucking knowledge do you have that you’re linking up that’s so goddamn worth it? I want to know that because every example you show me is like fucking Lord of the Rings shit. Like, it’s like, give me something new. Anyway, I, I’ve always liked Obsidian and, and I really love, I [00:56:00] love the community around it. [00:56:01] It’s just, if I don’t watch YouTube, then I can really love the community. Um. And, yeah. And it has been, um, a really good run. Normally when I try something like Obsidian, Noteplans, one of these apps for me in the past, like there are apps that I open up and they make sense for me immediately, and I cannot build the habit. [00:56:19] And, and, and I try to, I try to immerse myself in a way that’s unsustainable. And, and what I did this time with Obsidian that’s been so helpful is I just said, okay, what are the basics I need to do and, and does this do it for me? Right. Um, and, and then I started adding plugins, right? Like, and it’s been just an amazing place for me to do thinking. [00:56:42] Um, I Really appreciate the kind of community of developers out there who are constantly creating really interesting things. And I won’t just like go and list all of the plugins I’m using, but like on a fundamental level, I wanted to be able to go in there, [00:57:00] make my notes, have a good markdown linter. I love a good linter, you know, I like something that constrains me a little bit and make it exactly as pretty as I want it to be, which is pretty simple. [00:57:10] Uh, kind of pretty, but, um, it just matches my brain quite perfectly. And, um, I also love pulling in all of my, um, through Readwise, you can pull in all of your highlights from Apple Books, from Kindle, from Instapaper. Um, All kind of in the service of like the sort of Zettelkasten style of, I’m going to have, you know, a note for every kind of thing. [00:57:34] But for me, I just want to get, I want a markdown file that has all of my highlights from a book. Um, and, and I love just kind of browsing that. And if I’m in a place where I’m trying to kind of write it just freely, um, being able to just browse something and get kind of inspired has been really powerful for me. [00:57:53] Um, but anyway, when I first tried Obsidian, it was like, I tried it. Right out of using Roam, you’re a Roam, which is like, [00:58:00] this was back when like you would only use these things in kind of like a strictly personal knowledge management way or like Zettelkasten way and I love the rigidity of that. I just can’t sustain it. [00:58:11] Um, there’s like, my brain’s very attracted to it, but the rest of me can’t handle it. Um, And so I always kind of, like, flamed out. And when I decided, like, I’m just gonna, like, drop my, my folder of text files in here, and, and play around and see what I can do, I’ve just found myself very comfortable inside of it. [00:58:31] I’m not, I feel like I’m not saying a lot of very interesting things about Obsidian, but I also feel like a lot has been said about Obsidian. And the real headline for me here is, I’ve been using it consistently for almost a month, which is, which is definitely a sign that I might have actually adopted it. [00:58:45] Brett: long should we wait before we check in with you to see if it’s still in use? [00:58:51] Jeff: I would say like a, a month, but honestly, I brought this to therapy because I was like, I, I just have a tendency that is very, [00:59:00] very, like, very much reflects like my inner life, which is, uh, the relationship between order and chaos is, is really just kind of strange and sometimes hard to manage, manage for me. [00:59:11] So like, I can present and I can be an incredibly orderly person and in that same space. I can have so much chaos around the orderly core. So, you know, as, as an example, there was a long period where you could go into my workshop and there’d be one little area, kind of a bay created by shelves. And it’s filled with toolboxes that are all labeled with the same paint marker and are labeled very clearly. [00:59:33] And I can go in and reach everything. If you go past that, it’s chaos, right? Like, and so for me, whenever I’ve. been operating especially with text files. I might have NVUltra, back in the day, NVAlt, I’m not just trying to warm you up, this isn’t foreplay, Brett, but I would use these different things and I would have all this order in a folder of notes and then it would be surrounded by papers, just, you’ve imagined just papers [01:00:00] flying all over the room, right? [01:00:02] So anyway, um, I actually was kind of addressing this with my therapist, and I won’t get into that, but basically the challenge for me was, I want to just grab a system and just hold onto it. I want to hold onto it with all of my might, and have that actually be the goal. Not that it’s perfect inside of it, not that I execute it perfectly, but that I hold onto it and don’t abandon it and go into kind of chaos. [01:00:26] So, very specific to me, I mean, I’m sure somebody Relates out there, but so anyway, that’s been, that’s been lovely using obsidian and, and, and just having it, you know, it’s got a great sync with the phone. It looks great on the phone. Um, and I’ve struggled with that forever. Just wanting to have the same app on my Mac and on my phone that I’m working in my text files in. [01:00:47] Um, I do that with drafts, but just [01:00:49] Brett: For, for the record, Envy Ultra will have an iOS app. If we ever get the Mac app out the door, the iOS app will come shortly [01:00:56] Jeff: lovely. Great app. [01:00:58] Brett: like I, Obsidian is [01:01:00] amazing. Like I, um, am often astounded by what it can do, but for my needs, um, I just don’t need the plugin architecture and everything in my daily life. [01:01:14] Um, it’s so cool. It’s such a great app, but I just, [01:01:18] Jeff: Plugins often kind of fuck me up. Like with VS Code, I keep, you know, this, I keep going from Sublime Text to VS Code, and then I start looking at all the plugins, and then I put them all in there, and then I feel like, wait, all I actually need is what I’ve been doing in Sublime Text for 15 years, or whatever. [01:01:33] Brett: Recommendation for VS Code is start using profiles and have like a profile where you, where you just overload on extensions and try everything, but then one profile that is only what you decide you actually need to function. Um, [01:01:49] Jeff: Yeah, that’s really smart. [01:01:51] Brett: real quick, I can’t remember. I think it was on this podcast. We were talking about replacements for pinboard [01:01:57] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, we were. [01:01:58] Brett: And I talked about [01:02:00] LinkWarden being a beautiful, uh, substitute and you were like, I don’t need beautiful. What I want is basically [01:02:07] Jeff: It’s actually that Beautiful fucks me up. Like, I can’t follow Beautiful. Yeah. [01:02:11] Brett: I discovered LinkedIn, um, which is a self hosted, almost one to one replacement for pinboard. And, um, I originally ran it on a service called Pikapods, but then discovered I could just run it on my Synology and I could make my, I could make it, I could open a port and the world could see my. Shared bookmarks, just the way I did on, um, on Pinboard. [01:02:36] So, I’ve switched everything over to running LinkedIn on my Synology with a version of LinkedIn that allows for full HTML archiving. Um, so all of my webpages, all of my webpages are saved in full onto my Synology. And for those who are interested who aren’t Jeff, [01:03:00] um, I published a, uh, LinkedIn Allots for Custom CSS. [01:03:05] Um, so I wrote a CSS style that makes LinkedIn look like link warden. Uh, so you have a bunch of like, like a card for each link with a big image at the top and then all of the information. Yep. This is not for Jeff. This is, [01:03:20] Jeff: OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! [01:03:21] Brett: this is for others who, who prefer such a layout. Um, entirely optional though. [01:03:26] ’cause LinkedIn without any custom CSS looks almost exactly like Pinboard. So if that’s what you want, check out LinkedIn. I’ll throw a note in. [01:03:36] Jeff: I’ll check it out. I’ll check it out. [01:03:38] Brett: Uh, I can also give you an account on my Synology server. [01:03:42] Jeff: Ooh, nice! Peekapods! Keeps coming up lately. Is it new? Cause I just, all of a sudden I hear about Peekapods all the [01:03:49] Brett: Um, I don’t, I don’t know how long they’ve been around. I just discovered it when I was, at the same time I was looking into LinkedIn. Um, and for like a dollar a month, you can run [01:04:00] a little VPS that can, [01:04:02] Jeff: of that. [01:04:02] Brett: that can handle something [01:04:04] Jeff: about anything for a dollar a month. [01:04:05] Brett: just, you spin up like one off EPSs, uh, like this one is just for running LinkedIn this, and they have a whole catalog of like open source projects. [01:04:15] You can spin up, um, for one to 3 a month and, uh, sign your own custom domain too. And. [01:04:22] Conclusion and Final Thoughts [01:04:22] Brett: Alright, well this has been fun Jeff, [01:04:27] Jeff: Yeah, good to talk to ya. [01:04:28] Brett: made it through just over an hour without having to go lay down, so this is great. [01:04:33] Jeff: Be careful going back up the stairs, for fuck’s sake. [01:04:36] Brett: I will, after standing up from this chair, I will stand almost still for a full minute and then will walk around for another full minute before attempting to go up the stairs because sometimes I pass out a Good. [01:04:52] Like minute and a half to two minutes after I stand up, like all of a sudden it like sneaks up on me and I just, [01:05:00] just flopped out on the ground face first. [01:05:02] Jeff: That, listeners, is a man with a safety plan. [01:05:06] Brett: I, I am learning. I am learning. [01:05:09] Jeff: Alright, get some sleep? [01:05:12] Brett: Get some sleep.

Jeff and Christina kick off the Overtired Podcast with a hearty dose of election angst, send their well wishes to Brett struggling with health issues, and dive deep into coping strategies for the shitshow that is US politics. They throw shade at the DNC, reminisce about the nightmare of 2016, and fantasize about burning it all down. In a lighter twist, we get the lowdown on a revolutionary terminal emulator, Mitchell Hashimoto’s Ghostty. Oh, and Tim Walz playing Crazy Taxi? Priceless. All this while navigating the wild west of social media insanity. Buckle up! Sponsor Blogging is making a comeback and Pika is a great way to get a blog online fast. Visit pika.page/overtired now to give yourself a chance to experience the personal internet as it was meant to be. Enter coupon code OVERTIRED20 to get 20% off your first year of Pika Pro. Show Links On “now it’s time to work” Comparing 2024 to 2004 Tim Walz plays Crazy Taxi Peggy Flanagan in her Protect Trans Kids shirt Find Any File Drafts Actions Directory Ghostty Discord Server ### Highlghts https://overtiredpod.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Highlight-Reel-of-Election-Madness-and-Terminal-Emulators.mp4 Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Host Greetings 00:16 Brett’s Health Update 02:23 Medical Advice and ChatGPT Discussion 07:51 Election Night Reflections 13:10 Coping Strategies and Mental Health 15:37 Comparing 2016 and 2020 Elections 37:24 Ad Read: Pika Personal Homepage 39:52 Releasing Back into the Wild 40:18 Political Comparisons and Criticisms 40:43 The Impact of the Iraq War 43:55 Obama’s Rise and the DNC Reset 47:53 The Long Haul of Fascism 49:20 Processing Political Stress 51:23 Reflections on 2008 and Racism 55:26 Grieving Political Losses 01:05:48 Grapptitude: Tech Tools and Apps 01:12:09 Ghostty: The New Terminal Emulator 01:18:02 Closing Thoughts and Self-Care Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Election Madness and Terminal Emulators [00:00:00] Introduction and Host Greetings [00:00:00] Jeff: Hello, brand new America. This is the Overtired podcast. Uh, I’m Jeff Severns Guntzel. I got Christina Warren with me. Hi, Christina. [00:00:14] Christina: Hi, Jeff. Um, [00:00:16] Brett’s Health Update [00:00:16] Jeff: you follow Brett on social media, uh, and maybe if you don’t, uh, you will now know that he is having some health issues. Um, and, uh, and we wish him so well. He is not here with us. [00:00:28] Christina: he is not here with us. He’s, he’s with us in spirit. We hope that he’s doing well and that we figure out, hopefully, you know, by the time this episode goes up, he’ll be closer to figuring out why he’s been having some, uh, some fainting spells and some other stuff, which is super, super scary. So, and a fucking terrible week for it. [00:00:45] I mean, it’s a terrible week in general, but like, of all the weeks for like, you know, to have to have like a health crisis on top of everything else. [00:00:52] Jeff: Yeah, it’s like the only week that would also explain that particular health [00:00:55] crisis. I’m not saying It’s I’m definitely [00:00:58] Christina: no, no, Oh, no, [00:01:00] no, no. It doesn’t seem to be, but no, but yeah, totally. It is one of those things. Well, the thing is, if it hadn’t started like before Tuesday, I think that that would have been um, like, if I were the ER doctor, I’d be like, are we sure this isn’t just a stress response? [00:01:16] Jeff: right. Yeah. Are we sure there’s not people across America passing out consistently right now? [00:01:22] No. Uh, feel better, Brett. Uh, and [00:01:26] it just sucks, and hopefully he figures it out, and if you do follow him on social media, send him, send him well wishes, um, and hope that he posts no more photos of himself from the ER. [00:01:36] Christina: Yeah. For real. For real. Um, and, and, and, and, Very sad. Um, and, and if you’re either a doctor or an armchair doctor, please respond to him, um, with, um, suggestions for how you can solve his medical problem without actually knowing what his symptoms and, and situation is, because I know he will love that. [00:01:58] Jeff: That’s a little special request he sent [00:02:00] through us. [00:02:00] Christina: It is. It is. It is. [00:02:01] Jeff: and we, we like to take care of him. [00:02:03] Christina: We, we, we do. Just, just say that, you know, Christina and Jeff wanted to make sure that he doesn’t get any sleep. [00:02:08] Jeff: Yeah, definitely. And if you’ve Googled this thing or something, you know, let him know the first thing you see, cause that’s sometimes the best thing. [00:02:15] Christina: Yeah, it’s, it’s never the worst. It’s never gonna freak anybody out or like take them down another sort of spiral. It’s never gonna do anything else. No, um, please don’t, please don’t actually do that. [00:02:23] Medical Advice and ChatGPT Discussion [00:02:23] Christina: And, and, and Brett, if you’re, if you’re listening to this, please don’t, like, WebMD yourself. Like, we, we all know that, we all know the, the fear of, or, or at this point, okay, mindfuck. [00:02:39] People are, because I’m already probably thinking of doing this, people aren’t going to WebMD themselves anymore. They’re just going to ChatGPT their symptoms. [00:02:47] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is, which can be not helpful. Probably can be helpful in some scenarios, but can [00:02:53] Christina: I was going to say in [00:02:54] Jeff: And you can’t know, is the point. [00:02:56] Christina: I was going to say, like, I actually firmly believe [00:03:00] that if you had a really good medical LLM, or like, like a medical version of ChatGPT, which frankly, that’s what, that’s what OpenAI should do. They should start making like specialized, like off the shelf LLMs. [00:03:10] So we’re doing things specifically for certain industries that are models that are tuned similar to like GitHub Copilot, like where things that are like, Hey, this is tuned on medical analysis and information and we can have statistical data and, and we can refine the parameters so that, um, uh, certain functions are not happening, um, you know, like, um, non deterministically but are actually happening on a deterministic system. [00:03:32] So like math and things like that are always going to be correct, but we can make sure that like the, the, the training data is good. Like. Um, I could actually see, you know, that being a really, I mean, already doctors are using it and they’ve used, you know, like, uh, you know, things for years to be able to kind of like run through symptoms and try to get, you know, like, things back. [00:03:51] But like, you could see, and, you know, that be, you know, really, really good, like, diagnostic, and like, uh, analysis tool, right? [00:04:00] Um, and, and even for like, lay people, if you even had like a, a, again, you know, like, OpenAI, like, make this, make, make the medical grade one for the doctors, but then also make, like, a home version where, like, people can pay, like, 40 a quarter on addition to their ChatGPT, you know, plus bill, and they can get, like, the personal, you know, MD sort of thing, and, like, get, like, you know, like, talk to your doctor about this, um, but, like, yeah, I mean, I guess you’d have to get chemical compliance, but, Anyway, I’m coming up with all kinds of business ideas for, for OpenAI. [00:04:35] Jeff: rich by the end of this podcast, probably. [00:04:38] Christina: no, I mean, it won’t be, but like, and God only knows, like, what it’ll cost them to actually run those things. [00:04:44] Jeff: What about just a, what if, what if our goal could be by the end of this podcast to just have a little walking around money? Yeah. Yeah. [00:04:49] We don’t have to [00:04:49] Christina: that would be great. [00:04:50] Jeff: Yeah, I [00:04:51] guess [00:04:51] Christina: mean, I would love it. [00:04:52] Jeff: gives us, is a little bit of walking around money. [00:04:54] Um, Yeah. I, uh, there’s a funny, um, my, um, [00:05:00] there’s somebody in my life who was in the ER recently, I won’t be, I won’t give any indications, but she gave birth to me, um, and, and, she was, she got tested for something and then was reading the results You know, you’re in the ER and you’re, you have results, but you’re still waiting for a room for somebody to talk to you. [00:05:20] You can’t help but look at them. And she, she texts me and she says, it says, I have a collapsed bladder. I don’t, I’m eager to know what that means. And I was like, yeah, no, probably it doesn’t mean anything bad because. Medical language is funny. And what occurred to me is it might mean that you just don’t have any pee. And, and sure enough, she got to the doctor, she’s all worried about the like, collapsed bladder. What does it mean? It just means your bladder is empty. Oh, right. [00:05:48] Christina: Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And, and, and that’s [00:05:51] Jeff: sound good. [00:05:52] Christina: no, no, but see, that’s actually a great example again of like a personal, like medical, like jargon thing. Like what does this mean? Like honestly, [00:06:00] even putting aside, okay, genuine like product idea and it doesn’t have to be OpenAI. Anybody could do this. [00:06:05] Because in this case, you wouldn’t have to be necessarily, I mean, it would be better if you were fine tuned on like, you know, medical, um, uh, books and, and, and things like that. But, but, but it wouldn’t strictly even have to be. So just having like a, a, a well tuned kind of like personal, you know, explainer be like, I can type in what this medical term is from my doctor’s office and this is going to tell me in real language what it actually is. [00:06:30] Jeff: Yeah, that’s, I love that. Yeah. I’m gonna actually, I’m sure she could have seen this on Google, although she didn’t seem to. I’m in ChatGPT, or in the most recent Roderick on the Line, John Roderick called it ChattyG, which is really amazing, and [00:06:44] I, I, it’s so in my head that when I [00:06:46] opened Alfred just now, I started typing ChattyG. [00:06:50] Christina: Amazing. I mean, honestly, honestly, I kind of want to like, make that my alias for it. [00:06:55] Jeff: So good. I know it was just my thought like, Oh, yeah, maybe I’ll do that. [00:07:00] Ooh, Collapsed bladder, often referred to as bladder prolapse or a cystoseal, occurs when the bladder drops from its normal position in the pelvis and presses against the vaginal wall. This typically happens when the muscles and tissues supporting the bladder become weakened. [00:07:14] That’s not at all an empty bladder, says Chatty G. [00:07:18] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, Chatty G seems like a very different thing. So, uh, so maybe not. Maybe, maybe, maybe this is not. Maybe, maybe we’re not having a good idea. Like, we’re [00:07:28] Jeff: about this? Isn’t it just an empty bladder? Welcome to Chatty G with Christina and Jeff. Uh, isn’t it just an empty bladder, Chatty G? Let’s see. Hmm. It can indeed sound like I might refer to it, wow, it’s actually a structure. Well, that’s not what the doctor told my mother. All right, let’s stop there. Uh, and, uh, we’ll, we’ll take this to my chart. [00:07:51] Election Night Reflections [00:07:51] Jeff: Um, Anyway, so, uh, mental health, what, how about Mental Health Corner [00:07:56] is, what are your coping strategies for, [00:08:00] um, the thing, the, the, [00:08:02] The disaster? [00:08:03] Christina: The disaster. Um, yeah, I’m curious to hear yours. So, I’m going through like the, the stages of, of grief and whatnot, and, and I’m pretty stuck in anger. Um, and, but, but the, the, like, the focus of my anger is shifting. And, um, which I feel like that’s growth. So, um, I, I kept, I, so. It was obvious to me on Tuesday night, fairly early, West Coast time, what was happening. [00:08:31] Um, the same way that it was obvious to me in 2016, um, uh, then on East Coast time, like, what was happening. And so, I started having this sense of deja vu, and you see the numbers coming in, and you see, like, the polls, and like, you know, look. There can always be upsets, but in general, they follow a typical standard, and 2020 did as well, right? [00:08:50] Like, it was really close. The thing that was shocking about 2020 was Georgia, um, I mean, Arizona a little bit too, but Georgia, just the fact that we didn’t know, and it was so close, and that they had to do their [00:09:00] recount, and that they had to do, like, the runoff for Senate, right? Like, [00:09:03] Jeff: Thank you, thank you, Warnock. [00:09:05] Christina: yeah, exactly, um, and Stacey Abrams, and all, uh, you know, [00:09:09] Jeff: Yes, so Stacey Abrams, I’ll tell you later why I think of Warnock first, but yes, thank you all those people. [00:09:15] Christina: Well, I mean, you know, obviously he was the one running for Senate, so, you know, um, and, and, and she, you know, had, had, had lost governor, so, you know, which is still amazing that she was able to pull in so many voters, but, like, you know, you, you, we, we saw even before it got to that point, like, we saw that it was close, and we saw, I mean, like, virtually tied, and that, and that it was, it was more competitive than we’d ever thought it would be, um, and, and so that, that, like, 2020, you know, It changed things, right? [00:09:42] Like, like that was different, but like you didn’t, you knew early on that it was going to be like a tightrope, but like you felt good. Like 2016 though, I remember being like, this is, this is bad, she’s lost. And I felt the same exact way this time. And so I was, you know, kind of tweeting about it and posting about it [00:10:00] on threads and posting about it on Macedon and Blue Sky because we were The world is awful. [00:10:05] Jeff: yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:06] Christina: And, so you have to be all those places, and all of them suck, and, and, you know, um, our, our, and, and Twitter, the worst one, is the only one that is real time at all. I mean, blue sky, I [00:10:16] Jeff: I miss, that’s when I miss Twitter the most, is [00:10:19] things like election night. So [00:10:21] Christina: totally. And, and, and, but, but, but Elon has ruined it, and so it’s like the worst people in the world are there, but yet the news is there too, so it’s one of those fucking mixed things. [00:10:29] So I’m kind of, kind of expressing, like, my, my anger, then I’m like, you know, I feel sick, I want to throw up, and I was like, I’m, I, you know, I, but, but already I started seeing people doing the whole, well, just put your chin up, you know, kind of attitude, you know, we’ll continue to fight, and I’m like, go. Fuck yourself. [00:10:45] People are allowed to be mad. And like, that’s what I said. I was like, I was like, I started saying like, like Tuesday night and then into Wednesday, I was like, let people be mad. Let them feel what they feel. I’m not even saying be angry forever. And to be clear, I’m not saying don’t be angry forever because I have [00:11:00] some sort of sense of duty about like, oh, we all need to pick ourselves back up and do [00:11:04] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:05] Christina: No, it’s because the anger Anger, it can be fueling and it can be good for a time, but ultimately it can become toxic. And so my whole thing with the anger is purely selfish. It’s like, as long as the anger works for you, be angry. But at a certain point, for most of us, anger is no longer, um, a, a beneficial response. [00:11:24] And it winds up being hurtful. So when I say get rid of the anger, it’s not for the other people. It’s not to have peace for them, like, fuck them. It’s, it’s the same way I view forgiveness. Forgiveness is not for other people. It’s for yourself. You forgive so that you don’t have to live with that, right? [00:11:38] And, and, and that is, you know, so that you’ve let it go and it’s no longer, like, eating at you. Like, fuck the other person, right? Like, that, that’s not who it’s from. Forgiveness is for you. Um, and I feel like [00:11:48] Jeff: It’s not even an effective gift in many cases, right? It [00:11:51] is something you have to do for you, and [00:11:53] Christina: You do. Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Because it’s like, okay, because you can’t control whether or not someone forgives you or not, [00:12:00] especially if they really do. [00:12:00] Right. Because a lot of people say, Oh, I forgive you. And then they don’t. Um, they’re, they’re still holding that through. Right. So it’s like, you know, if you’ve wronged someone or even if you haven’t, but they perceive that you have, like, there’s not a whole lot of control you have over that. Right. But like, I can control how I feel about a situation for someone else and how much I continue to let it affect me. [00:12:18] And I feel the same way about anger. Right. But sometimes the can be really, really. fueling and, and really, frankly, like can feel good. So, you know, I’m not saying be angry forever, but I am being like, let people fucking feel how they feel and don’t immediately go into that, all right, time to get back to work. [00:12:36] Like, first of all, fuck off. The work didn’t work last time and we should really talk about it. Um, you know, and there’s a lot, there’s enough blame to go around to everybody, but I, you know, the, the, the people I want to hear from the least are the fucking resistance, you know, like, Libs who have done jack shit for us in my opinion over the last eight years That’s who I’m really kind of pissed at now because [00:12:58] Jeff: Well, it also feels like, when people do that, it [00:13:00] feels like they’re, it’s like, are you actually talking to yourself? Cause like, otherwise, who are you addressing? Everybody? [00:13:04] Like, what is this fight? I mean, give me a minute. [00:13:08] Christina: Right, right. [00:13:10] Coping Strategies and Mental Health [00:13:10] Christina: So anyway, you asked about coping strategies. My mind is basically just maybe like be pissed off and I’m okay with it. I’ve also been trying to like, you know, do some work and do some other things. I’ve got an insane next six weeks of travel planned. I’m gonna be in Salt Lake City for KubeCon next week. [00:13:25] I’m gonna be in Chicago actually the week after that for Microsoft Ignite. So I’ll be near you and Brett. Then I’m going to be in Atlanta for Thanksgiving. Then I’m gonna be in Seoul for kind of a quick trip. Yep. Um, and then, then I’m going to be, um, uh, back for like a week, then I’m going to, um, uh, Rome, um, with a friend for a long weekend, and then I’m going to, then I’ll be back in Atlanta for Christmas. [00:13:49] So, yeah, like, the next. I know. I know. And that was not all, like, three of those things came out, like, very recently. So it was not originally supposed to be that [00:14:00] hectic, but things were, like, added on to my plate kind of last minute. And honestly, I was like, fuck it. Let’s do it. Like, when I had the, um, opportunity last week when I found out that I would potentially be going to Seoul and it was confirmed this week, I, I, I didn’t have to go. [00:14:16] And given all my other travel, like. Honestly, it’s kind of a mixed bag whether I should do it or not, but you asked for coping strategies and I did have the thought last week, I was like, depending on how things go, I might really want a distraction, you know, where I’m just go, go, going and, and I know from, um, you know, when I used to travel like this all the time, so this is going to be like. [00:14:41] Uh, uh, back to pre pandemic Christina a little bit, um, uh, I, I know that it’s a real good way of, of avoiding things you don’t want to think about or focus [00:14:52] Jeff: sure is. [00:14:53] Christina: It’s, it’s just to be, as you know, from somebody who’s, who’s traveled a ton and been a bunch of places and, you know, [00:15:00] uh, during, you know, times of, you know, kind of domestic crisis, it’s nice to just be busy, you know? [00:15:09] Jeff: Yeah. And I mean, I feel like it’s, it can be a great way to, uh, avoid things you need to avoid. And it can also be a great way to metabolize things, just to not be, uh, in your own four walls, moving, moving, moving, while also metabolizing who he’s going to pick for this post or what he’s promising now is actually like, for me, a better way. [00:15:31] I can hold it better. Yeah. Yeah. Then if I’m sitting at home, [00:15:34] Christina: totally. No, that’s the thing, right? Like, and I think that. [00:15:37] Comparing 2016 and 2020 Elections [00:15:37] Christina: Um, I want to, I want to, uh, talk to you about how you’re coping and what your mental health is like, uh, first, but one thing I do want to, I think would be interesting for us to talk about would be, um, Like, I guess maybe comparing and contrasting, like, how this feels versus other, like, election, you know, like, losses that, you know, we’ve kind of gone through, [00:16:00] um, because when I think about 2016, that was hard for so many reasons, and it was very different than how I felt then is very different from how I feel now. [00:16:10] But part of what made that both harder and easier was the fact that I was a journalist. And so it was, it was harder in the sense that, like, you couldn’t disconnect from it. Like, there was nothing I really could do. Like, I, even not being a political journalist, you know, being like a technology journalist still, like, there was something about it all the time. [00:16:26] And, and, you know, and I worked in a newsroom and I couldn’t get rid of it, right? It was, it was in your face and you could not ignore Like the, the, the news dump that happened literally, you know, from the day he was elected up until, you know, and then it got only bigger, you know, once he was inaugurated and all that. [00:16:42] Whereas, whereas this time, you know, but, but, but, and so that made it suck, but at the same time, there was also like that busyness of like, okay, well, there’s always a story to write. There’s always a thing to do. And so you didn’t have to like think about it too much. And, and I’m curious from like your perspective, like. [00:16:59] You know, [00:17:00] um, uh, as somebody who, you know, is a journalist, but not like in, in a newsroom quite the same way. Like if, if, if it, if it makes you, if it’s easier or harder, like when you have to think about it all the time, right? Or if it’s better to have a distraction, I guess that’s what I’m trying to get at, right? [00:17:17] Like in some ways, like the, the day to day news stuff could be a distraction even if it was about him. Whereas almost like it’s harder, like, Um, once I was no longer in journalism and I was having to, like, actually follow everything that happened, like, as a layperson, like, in some ways that was almost harder because I was like, you know, the, the, the, the Mueller investigation and all that. [00:17:37] I was like, okay, I, I have to either choose to engage or not because, you know, this is gonna, like, I, I, I have to find something else to distract me or else this is just gonna be a thing that, like, overtakes my brain and, That’s not, that’s not helpful. [00:17:52] Jeff: Yeah. Well, actually my, I have an answer to that initially that it ties into kind of my own coping strategies or like the [00:18:00] challenges in this election. Like I didn’t, when I was a journalist, I managed to, I managed to convince my editors that I would be not only no good at, but deeply resentful about having to do any kind of in the moment coverage of any kind of in the moment politics thing at all. [00:18:18] Christina: Mm hmm. [00:18:19] Jeff: I’m not the best person for it, and I kind of despise it. I despise the coverage that comes out of it most of the time. Not despise, but like, I just wonder why. [00:18:28] Um, and I know I just feel like I was throwing my life away in dramatic, which is not what I feel about the people who are doing it. I literally, that will, is what would happen inside of me if I were doing it. Um, and, And so it’s, it’s much better for me to be able to fully manage the way that I follow and metabolize and everything, this stuff. Um, though I have really good friends who are journalists where it’s like, that is, they would never say it cause you’re not supposed to say stuff like that, but that is how they metabolize it [00:18:56] and they need it and is their coping strategy. [00:18:58] And I thousand percent [00:19:00] respect that. And they do great work with, um, but for me, like, even So we had some really great friends. These two couples that, um, my wife and I have been close with through getting to know through our kids were friends. And then we’ve just been like friends since our kids were in kindergarten. [00:19:14] So I love them. I love being around them. And they were, one of them was hosting kind of just us and, and, and them basically to, to watch the election results and, and have a dinner. And I knew instantly, I don’t do those things. Um, but I also, you know, knew that it’s really good to be with people you love, uh, on a hard night. [00:19:33] And so I was like, I’m just going to do the dinner. And, um, which is what I did. But like, even there doing the dinner, what is, what is so difficult to me, and it’s not unlike the journalism thing, and why that doesn’t work for me is like, I am managing my own kind of anxiety, my own hopes, my own fears, all that stuff, and I’m doing it in whatever way is like very much me, and the way I do that stuff is, it’s very inward, it’s very like in my head, so I can actually, you know, I can be [00:20:00] scrolling back in the day, I could be scrolling Twitter, but I needed to be doing it alone, um, and, and have like utter control, because as soon as I have other people in my ear processing in their way, um, and some people process by, you know, constantly looking up information and sharing it out while you’re watching the TV, which is already putting all this like useless information, graphics that make it look like something big has just happened, but nothing’s just happened. Um, and so like, I can’t, that stresses me out so much. So I actually did something this year that I have never done. And, I’m really glad I did, and I’m not putting it out there as some like, this is what we all should have done, this is a wise thing, because often when people suggest what I’m about to suggest, it comes in a very fucking annoying package. Um, but I got home from that election party thinking I was going to turn on the TV and just watch it with my wife and, you know, whatever. I actually got home and I’m like, I’m not turning anything on. Like, I’m really fucking tired, I haven’t been [00:20:53] sleeping well, probably not unrelated to this. There’s nothing I can do, but hit my nervous system over and over [00:21:00] again. [00:21:00] And it, and it doesn’t help me process. Like it does, again, I totally respect it helps people. I know process just be watching it with someone, whatever, talking, but I was like, I think this time I got to be no, no, nothing. So I didn’t watch anything. I fell asleep and I woke up at like three, uh, central. And so I was like, look at the phone. [00:21:21] I was like, no, don’t look at the phone. Try to go back to sleep. And then I, I stayed in, don’t look at the phone, try to go back to sleep for an hour and a half, and at 4. 30, 5. 30 Eastern, um, which is when he did his victory speech basically, or started it, that’s exactly when I turned my phone on, it’s like, Trump is about to begin his victory speech, and I was like, holy shit. And so anyway, I took that in, got up, couldn’t sleep, obviously. Got up, went into my workshop at like 5 a. m., sorted work gloves, and then just was like, I’m not taking in any news for the first half of the day. And I didn’t. And then I started, and I was ready. And I, so one coping strategy, pre coping strategy was [00:22:00] just to like, totally unplug, which is not my [00:22:02] nature. [00:22:03] Um, and, and, oh my God, I needed to, but then To your point, and to some of the points of your Macedon post that I appreciated, as soon as I logged in, it was like, now we fight, now we fight. And I was like, you know what? No, I’m gonna go ahead and take a rest. I’m not like I, I’ve known fighting in my days. I’m not, I’m not averse to fighting. [00:22:22] I’m not a complacent person. But I also know that I know what it’s like to destroy yourself. And I’ve watched other people destroy themselves. And I’ve watched people figure out that rest is a really important part of being in any kind of fight. And that’s it. This is the time. We got a minute. We got a minute to rest. [00:22:40] It’s over. That’s we’re not contesting this thing, right? Like, um, we got a minute and it is, and to your point, however, anyone needs to do this need to do it. And so when I see people saying fight, fight, fight over and over, I’m kind of like, there’s a part of me that’s like, I mean, I get it. I respect it. I’m not, again, there’s no way of responding to this [00:23:00] thing that I disagree with exactly because I think everyone’s doing it the way they need to. [00:23:04] But social media is different because you’re being told things all the time, [00:23:06] people telling you. And so it’s just like, I tuned in for like, an hour. First thing I saw was actually your post being like, you know what, no, you can just feel what you’re gonna feel. You don’t have to fucking fight right now. [00:23:17] Like you had a great, you had a great post, which I’ll link to in the show notes. That was the first thing I saw when I came on. And then I saw all the fight things. I was like, Christine, I think you’re the only Social media posts I liked in that entire, like, hour that I was on. Um, so yeah, I mean there was that also just that part of like, you, you really have to trust yourself, like really have to trust yourself. [00:23:37] Like if people saying now we fight doesn’t feel good right now, [00:23:40] it’s fine. You’re not complacent, you’re [00:23:42] not anything. You just, you, you can’t actually fight good if you’re not in a good place. Anyhow, [00:23:46] Christina: No, no, and it’s not a failure to be like, no, I’m, I’m taking a breath, right? Like, like the, the, the, the, the, that’s not, that’s not a moral weakness or, or, or anything. And in fact, I think some people would say, when you lose, [00:24:00] which like, to be clear, like the Democrats like lost, lost, lost, lost, like, like lost, like, like, like, like, like, this was, you know, like a repudiation and a referendum, right? [00:24:10] Like this was, this was a, this was a loss. There was like, 2016 was. I guess now I can talk about like my theories about like how this is different from [00:24:19] Jeff: Yeah. Do it. [00:24:20] Christina: But like, um, but, but just, just to, to, to close the thought here, like when you lose like this, like for anything, whether it’s like a sports team or it’s like you get, you know, you, you, you lose a job or like something happens like in, you know, league ship or whatever, like, you know, like you lose a big deal, whatever the case may be, like the, the normal thing to do is to like reassess and I’m not saying we need to have the whole post mortem now, but like, sure. [00:24:48] Don’t give up and continue keeping on. I, I can, I can be down with that idea, but I’m also kind of being like, okay, if the same strategy has not worked for, let’s say, [00:25:00] Um, just, just, just putting that out there. I don’t know. [00:25:04] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, [00:25:05] Christina: I love, just, you know, I, I, I don’t know, like, let’s, let’s just say that. [00:25:09] If that has, if, if something isn’t working, maybe it’s time while you’re, like, before you get back up and fight to reassess, like, what you want your tactics to be. And that, to your point, I think, does require some, like, reflection. And look, if people feel better because they want to, you know, express the platitudes of fighting than doing whatnot. [00:25:30] I’m not going to tell you how to feel, I’m not gonna tell you what to do. I’m just not going to be shamed into immediately jumping on the toxic positivity rhetoric of being like, oh we got this, everything will be fine. No, we don’t actually know, right? And that’s the point. It’s okay for people to be fucking mad. [00:25:48] Um, I got so pissed off. I mean, this was some motherfucker on Twitter, so what do you expect? And I, and, and I, I didn’t engage other than like my one response, but like when I, I did tweet like Tuesday night, I was like, people are allowed to, you [00:26:00] know, be mad, you know, let them feel how they feel. And he was like, you know, anger is one thing or whatever. [00:26:04] He was like, you know, but, um, he said, you know, like, um, uh, you know, burning buildings and, and, and some other thing is, is another. And I was like, What the fuck are you talking about? I was like, already, already, this was like Tuesday night, I was like, what the f I mean, if I [00:26:19] Jeff: from Minneapolis. [00:26:20] Christina: right, exactly, what I wanted to be like, is I wanted to be like, we’re not the group of people who refuse to accept results. [00:26:28] And we’re not, we’re not the people who like, you know, like, stormed the Capitol, um, because I know what, I knew what he was dog whistling to, but I was like, actually, what that really made me think of was January 6th, and we will not do that. But I was like, what kind of bullshit escalation is that, right? [00:26:42] Like, no one’s saying that, right? Like, that’s, that’s the thing, right? Like, but, but that honestly kind of like put me in like a, a. Fucked up sort of even notion to just be like, this is how fucked up the world we live in is, is that there are people who, to be clear, this guy sucks, but like, and it was a dog [00:27:00] whistle and the whole thing was, was bullshit, but like, you know, where the rhetoric is such that saying something as simple as like, you’re allowed to be mad, people can, for him it’s not in good faith, but for some people it could be, be like, yeah, so a way some people respond to that is to try to burn it down and, and, and have a coup. [00:27:22] Like, that’s fucked up, right? But like, you know, but like, unfortunately, that’s the reality we’re in. Um, okay. So anyway, here’s my theory about how like this is different from like 2016. So 2016, I think for a lot of us, for most of us, was a shock. And, and even if you had like a sinking feeling that Trump might win, and even if you’d like thought that he was more, you know, So they’ve had a false impression that, like, Hillary Clinton is more, um, competitive than, um, the, the, the media, uh, mainstream media, especially political media gave him credit for, for a long time. [00:27:50] And that, you know, like, he was a real, like, force to be reckoned with. Like, even if you had a bad feeling, the polling, um, everything indicated that, that Hillary [00:28:00] was going to win. And, and then when she didn’t win, but she did win the popular vote, right, which, you know, uh, was, was similar to like a Bush v. [00:28:10] Gore thing. But In this case, it was like decisive, like it was obvious, like that. was almost like there was this huge shock, right? Um, and, and how did this happen? But there was also this, um, not comfort, but like this, I guess, additional kind of like sense of kind of like outrage, which is like, okay, but the Electoral College is, you know, should not be a thing that we do anymore. [00:28:34] And like, this is the second time now in 16 years that we have a different outcome from the different popular vote and, and, um, you know, electoral college makeup. And like, this is clearly not the will of the people, you know, collectively, right? Like, like, I don’t remember the number, but like millions more people have voted for her than for him. [00:28:50] Jeff: gap. Yeah. [00:28:51] Christina: Yeah, exactly. And, and so, you know, so it came down to, you know, the, the bullshit electoral college system. And, and so, [00:29:00] That, like, you had the shock, but then you also had, like, in a sense, you were like, okay, but this is not the will of the people, right? This is not, this is not, um, what, um, the, the, the majority [00:29:10] Jeff: less confusing. [00:29:11] Christina: Right. Well, right. In some ways it made it like that much more shocking and like upsetting, but at the same time you were kind of like, okay, well this is, this is not the will of people. And then in 2020, you know, again, like, you know, won the popular vote by a large margin. And um, obviously it became very, very close and came down to a couple of states. [00:29:28] And, you know, Georgia really did come down to the sand votes. But, um, although we even in like, you know. There wasn’t a buffer or whatever, uh, you know, like if Georgia or Arizona had been lost, like, you know, uh, Biden still would have won, but like, you, but you still had that thing, you’re like, okay, the people did not vote for, for, for this, right? [00:29:47] Like, um, from an electoral point of view, uh, from, from a, um, you know, like populist, whatever, uh, you know, um, any popular vote point of view. But this time, A, [00:30:00] It, it wasn’t the same shock, at least for me, um, because again, like, I felt the spidey sense. I was like, I know what this feeling is like. I’m having deja vu. [00:30:08] Like, this is what’s happening. You can see the, the, the things come in when I saw every single swing state, every single one, you know, come in, um, for, for him and, and, and, uh, demographics coming out stronger. Like, the big thing is, is that like with 2020, I think that we had a little bit of a false boost where way more people did show up to vote, which is great. [00:30:30] That did not happen this time. And on the contrary, where you saw an uptick and an increase in voters was, was, you know, on the Republican side. Um, so their ground game was better. Um, uh, they, they got more people out. They got younger people out for them, which, which, you know, um, uh, the Democrats did not. Um, and then, um, more of them. [00:30:48] More of them voted, right? Like for, for him. And, and to me, I was like, what made that, um, like, I’ll, I’ll find a thing that I sent to a friend of mine who’s Australian. Um, let me find this. If we want to put [00:30:59] Jeff: Ooh, [00:31:00] Engaging the Australians. That’s always good for, for like, uh, balancing out any feeling. I love the Australians. [00:31:06] Christina: Me too. Well, my friend, um, was lovely and like reached out to me at like, um, uh, you know, midnight my time. And so, um, I, I don’t even want to know what time it was, you know, for, for him, um, uh, the next day, you know, and so, so it was like 2 AM your time. And so, you know, very early or very late for him. Um, and he was, he was like, he was like, um, he’s like, Hey, I’m really sorry. [00:31:29] I hope you’re doing okay. And I said, thank you. And he says, you know, um, he was like, uh, he was like, I don’t even know what to say. And I said, um, Uh, I said, I don’t either. I wish I did. So I wish I was more surprised. I thought it would hurt less this time. The shock value of 2016 isn’t there, but it’s still just as depressing this time. [00:31:46] We know some of the outcome and it’s not good. And it’s like, what do you even say? We can’t even blame the electoral college this time. This was the will of the electorate, full stop. And that’s almost as upsetting as these people winning again, [00:32:00] that this was such a decisive blowout. And, and so. That was, that was the real thing for, for me. [00:32:06] I was like, this, this was the will of the electorate. Um, you know, it was. Um, and so what it reminded me more of and like how I felt both Tuesday night but especially Wednesday when I kept feeling like, and I think I, I posted about this as well, I felt exactly the same way I did when I was, um, I just voted in my first election in 2004. [00:32:30] And, and John Kerry lost. And he lost badly, right, like he, he lost about as badly as, [00:32:36] Jeff: was [00:32:36] Christina: lost about as badly as Kamala did. Yeah, right? I mean, you know, but like, yeah, totally, I mean, that, that didn’t help, but like, you know, the whole thing, you know, he wasn’t, he never connected with people, that campaign was flopped for a lot of reasons. [00:32:49] But in that case, you know, I was, I was a college student, it was my first election, and I was, was angered in a way where I was like, Similar to this, I was like, [00:33:00] you know, we have, um, you know, a criminal in his cronies and, you know, a liar who we already know who this motherfucker is and we’ve reelected him, right? [00:33:13] And that was how I felt in 2004. I was like, we know who George W. Bush is. Like, you could make an argument, I guess, in the year 2000, you know, why people might have voted for Bush. I didn’t really know much about him other than, you know, whose dad was, and he was, you know, governor of Texas, and, and Al Gore ran a very bad campaign, um, uh, you know, and, and really wanted to try to separate himself from, from Bill Clinton, which wound up being a mistake, regardless, right? [00:33:35] Like, people, and, and he doesn’t have charisma, and so, you [00:33:39] Jeff: Hoo, doggie. No. [00:33:40] Christina: No. But, and, and, and, and, and unfortunately George W. Bush does. And, but so you can understand how even though that was literally came down to hanging chads, and, and, and again, Al Gore won the popular vote, like, you could, you could see, okay, people didn’t know what they were voting for. [00:33:55] But then after that, when we’re in the middle of this [00:33:58] Jeff: We knew that we were [00:34:00] voting for a conman and a liar and a credible warmonger, even if you generously say he was puppeted to be a warmonger, he was that person. [00:34:10] Christina: was that puppet. He was that puppet. And, and you’re still, and, and you’re also voting for the puppet master, right? Like even, even [00:34:15] Jeff: Yeah, [00:34:16] Christina: that the, the, the, even if you believe that Cheney is the one pulling on the strings, well then you fucking voted for Cheney, right? And, and, and, and so [00:34:23] Jeff: We knew who he was. [00:34:24] Christina: absolutely, nobody was under any illusions about that, right? [00:34:28] Which is again, why like promoting the fact that like, you know, Cheney’s endorsing, anyway, anyway, I’m not going to get into [00:34:34] Jeff: Oh, I know, I was just like, oh god, I’m everybody just settled down on [00:34:39] Christina: Exactly. It’s like, this doesn’t get, this is not going to win you any votes on either side, right? Because no one, this is like, this is something no one likes. Um, and, and no one wants to hear from. But like, but that was the thing, right? It was that I was, you know, I was so young and I was, it was my first election and I had just this feeling of kind of like heartbreak because I was like, And what was most heartbreaking wasn’t that it didn’t go my way, [00:35:00] but I was like, this was the will of the people. [00:35:03] People know what this is, and they say we don’t care. We would still rather have this than this other thing. And that’s a hard thing to grapple with. And so that’s what this reminds me of. Yes. I was gonna say in some ways it hurt, in some ways this hurt a lot more, that that hurt more than 2016. And I feel like this hurts now too. [00:35:23] Because again, for all the anger that I’m still having right now at like the fucking Democratic Party and, and you know, the fact that maybe if we’d had a candidate who’d had more than 100 days to run a campaign, we would have done better, right? Like in some regards, like I can be kind and be like, I never voted for her in the primary. [00:35:42] I didn’t think she should be VP. And she would not have been my pick to be. On the ticket here. However, she, I thought, actually did a great campaign for what she had, especially the time that she did. She did way better than I thought that she, you know, would. And I have to, like, be honest about that. It was not enough, [00:36:00] but I also, for a certain amount, I’m like, you know, only about half of, only about a, only about a quarter of it, you know. [00:36:05] Can be attributed to her. The rest of it is like things outside of her control, right? Because she was going to put it into a shitty position too, right? Where it’s like, well, what are you going to do? Are you not going to take the, you know, um, uh, the, the, like, who else can they nominate at that point when, you know, guy drops out a hundred days before the election? [00:36:21] Like, what else can happen? You don’t have time to do a real primary. And, you know, unless you want to drag things out even worse, which, more which would make things even worse, you have to put up and she herself has to probably be thinking. Well, this is my only shot at ever being president because I’m sure as hell, you know, never going to win a normal primary. [00:36:41] And, you know, like, this is a, a long shot, but, but I’ve got to do it, right? So, like, she was kind of put in a shitty position and she did better than I thought she would. But, like, is putting, like, my anger at, like, the Democratic Party and all that aside, um, like, you said that the thing, it just, it hurts because it’s like, [00:37:00] This, this was the will of the people and, and, and I, I can’t even be mad just at them because I feel like there were so many errors made. [00:37:11] Um, I mean, I can be mad at some of them, but some of them I can just be like, well, I mean, we know that we are a country of dumb fucks, right? Um, and, but, but this is where we are. And so, yeah. [00:37:24] [00:37:24] Ad Read: Pika Personal Homepage [00:37:24] Christina: All right, so speaking about like the, you know, dumpster fire that is social media, having to deal with, you know, Twitter and threads and Blue Sky and Macedon and anything else, I guess even Facebook, uh, which I was not on, but, uh, other things, you know, there is a good antidote to all that, and that is a personal homepage. [00:37:43] And so, if you’ve ever wanted your own corner of the web, a place that feels, you know, truly personal, we’ve got just the thing for you. It is called Pika. That is P I K A. And you can find it at pika. page slash overtired. And uh, [00:38:00] uh, uh, I, I think that, uh, Jeff, have, have you, um, used Pika yourself? Have you tried it out? [00:38:05] Jeff: I spun up a blog, I spun up some posts, very, very easy, elegant, uh, simple, as the, as the software company is called Good Enough Software. It was like, good as good enough. Yeah. Uh huh. [00:38:19] Christina: It’s great. Yeah. And so it was really easy to create like a beautiful, clean blog or website without any of the usual tech headaches, which, you know, um, it used to be really easy to like create a blog and now it’s not. And so it’s nice that there are services out there like this, which help you do that. [00:38:34] And so with the PikaPro plan, you get unlimited pages, blog posts, guest book entries. Guessbooks, how great is that? Uh, and even the option to add your own custom domain. It’s seriously affordable too, way less than what you would pay for something like Squarespace, which just got bought out by some private equity folks. [00:38:49] So, no comment. Uh, it is also way less complicated than using something like WordPress, and it’s a better investment of your time than posting [00:39:00] Everything to social media, which is what I do. Uh, and, uh, just for you, we have a special deal. So when you visit pika. page slash overtired and decide to go pro, use the code overtired20. [00:39:13] You will get 20 percent off your first year. That is right. That is 20 percent off. Pika Pro’s already very reasonable price with all those unlimited features. So, if you’ve been thinking about putting yourself out there online, you can go to pika. page slash overtired and start building something uniquely yours with Pika. I know that it’s been a game changer for both you, Jeff, and Brett’s really liked it too, and we think you’ll love it. That is P I K A dot page slash overtired. [00:39:40] Pika dot page slash overtired. Ha [00:39:43] Jeff: And let me tell you something, here’s how easy it is, while Christina was talking, and really only in the last 30 seconds, I went ahead and claimed pika. page slash peekaboo, [00:39:52] Releasing Back into the Wild [00:39:52] Christina: ha! [00:39:53] Jeff: which I [00:39:53] will release back into the wild after one week, but I could [00:39:56] not believe that wasn’t [00:39:58] Christina: You have [00:39:58] Jeff: so now I have [00:40:00] it. Yeah, you’re gonna have to, you’re gonna have to buy it off me, I am [00:40:02] gonna get [00:40:02] Christina: a boo! Peek a [00:40:03] Jeff: money by the end of this. [00:40:04] Christina: No, exactly. You need some walking around money and thankyoupika. page. And also now I want to see a peek at a page from you slash peekaboo. Um, but no, but go, go, go, go, go, go, go to Overtired, uh, use the code to thank you Pika. Um, [00:40:16] Jeff: you. [00:40:18] Political Comparisons and Criticisms [00:40:18] Jeff: Yeah, the people who put 14 flags on their car won. I mean, that is, yeah. And the 2004 thing, part of why I was glad for you to say that is like, one of the things that I’ve really Yeah. Yeah. Bristled at from the time Trump was first elected is, and I understand why people say this. Everyone’s like, wow, this kind of makes you, makes George W. [00:40:40] Bush look like, oh, you know, [00:40:41] someone you might want. I was like, you know what? [00:40:43] The Impact of the Iraq War [00:40:43] Jeff: That guy, that guy caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands [00:40:48] of Iraqis. That is the definition of a monster. And. And like, and granted, that’s also just the machinery of the presidency of an imperial like nation, whatever, right? [00:40:57] But like, he didn’t have to do that. [00:41:00] Everyone agrees now. Everyone agrees now that war was a mistake. [00:41:03] Christina: it was based on lies. It was [00:41:05] Jeff: means that based on lies, we murdered hundreds of thousands, some say up to a million people. We can’t really know how many people died that would not have died otherwise. But the, the estimates are hundreds of thousands to a million, right? [00:41:16] Like it’s a lot of people. If it was 150, 000, which is the lowest estimate, that’s a lot of people. And so for me, it’s like, yeah, that guy is kind of charming in a kind of dipshit way. And he does make adorable paintings. And [00:41:29] that’s really funny. [00:41:30] Christina: I was gonna say his art is actually incredible. Like, that’s the fucked up thing. Like, [00:41:33] Jeff: Yeah. It’s super [00:41:34] Christina: art, his art is actually profound. Like, his art is profoundly [00:41:37] Jeff: Yeah. But like, you know, that thing of like, yeah, Trump is a monster too. [00:41:42] And he, and he’s ruining, he’s going to ruin lives and people are really. Vulnerable and people are going to be hurt. People we care about are going to be hurt. People that fit into any number of categories that are not sort of the mainstream, like [00:41:55] cis white people, whatever, are going to be hurt. There are people that I love and care about and will fight [00:42:00] for. [00:42:00] And [00:42:01] Christina: people are also gonna be hurt, [00:42:02] Jeff: Yeah, I know, everyone gets hurt a little on this one, probably, and so yes, he’s terrible. We don’t have to compare them at all, [00:42:11] but I can’t stand people softening on George W. Bush because the man [00:42:17] was a murderer, and that is not something that gets softened over [00:42:22] time. it should not. It should not get softened over [00:42:25] Christina: No, no, it shouldn’t. We should reject all of it, right? The same way that we should fucking reject Ronald Reagan and like not look back on him with like the rose colored glasses that even some liberals have, right? I think most people at this point like know enough not to. I mean, obviously, history will forever treat Ronald Reagan great, but You know, people who actually look at, like, what the impact of his policies were, shouldn’t. [00:42:47] Um, and, um, but, but, George W. Bush, like, everybody, everybody, everybody agrees. They agree. Like, that war was a mistake. It was based on lies. It never needed to happen. Um, the Iraqi deaths, which are, are, uh, you know, just [00:43:00] absolutely monstrous, as you said. But also, like, Selfishly, like my friends, right? Because I was, I was, you know, like 18 and, and when, when that war started and, you know, like, like people who signed up, you know, for out of either, sometimes in a sense of duty, you know, because of 9 11 or what I’m in most cases, they’d signed up because they wanted to have college paid for, right? [00:43:23] And you have people who were like, your recruiters are telling you, oh, you’re never going to go to war. [00:43:27] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:43:28] Christina: They go on six duties, right? And then some of them come back and some of them don’t, right? I had friends who did not come back home, who did not sign up for that. And it wasn’t a draft, but it essentially was. [00:43:37] Like if you, if you’d signed up for the military and you were young enough, like they were going to fucking send you. [00:43:43] Jeff: Yeah, you don’t come home or you don’t come back all the way. [00:43:45] Christina: right, exactly. Right. And it went on for fucking 20 years, right? Like we were fucking stuck there for [00:43:50] Jeff: Twenty years. [00:43:51] yes, and That’s what that man unleashed and he is not to be softened [00:43:55] Obama’s Rise and the DNC Reset [00:43:55] Christina: Not at all, not at all, but I would say to be slightly hopeful on this, the [00:44:00] thing that I think did come out of 2004, and you might have better memories of this than me, especially since you were kind of all over the place, um, uh, in your perspective on this might be better than mine, from what I recall, that was sort of a wake up call moment for the DNC. [00:44:18] And there was a big reset. Um, and so, and that was how we wound up getting Obama. Um, now ironically, the people that led that reset are the same people that I personally now think we need to have move on. Um, and, and, and be replaced, right? But hey, you know what, like 20 years is a long time to kind of have, you know, like stuff in, in, in, in place. [00:44:42] But, you know, but, but from what I recall, and, and I could be wrong, but like, it seemed like it was, You know, you had the Howard Dean people who really were trying to kind of change [00:44:50] Jeff: Howard Dean [00:44:52] Christina: the the Netroots folks, right? And then, and then he blew his campaign and didn’t, you know, was, was obviously never going to be the guy. [00:44:58] Um, but those people [00:45:00] then All shifted to Obama. And saw, OK, here’s a guy with charisma, here’s a guy who’s fantastic, who has, you know, just, just star quality out of the wazoo, who was a star, I think. It was the 2004, um, Democratic National Convention, that was his big breakthrough speech, right? I mean, that, that, I mean, I think more people will remember that speech, nobody remembers what John Kerry said. [00:45:22] Um, uh, [00:45:23] Jeff: sure it was not interesting. [00:45:25] Christina: No, but, but people remember Obama, right? And, and then the, the, those people who were kind of coming up like these, these new kind of more, you know, at the time we were calling progressive, you know, kind of voices kind of came through and that became the basis for getting Obama elected in, in 2008 and 2012. [00:45:42] And, um, do I think that those same people should be leading things now? No, I don’t. I think that the, the, the tactics and the playbook. from that era don’t work, or more to the point, the way that they’ve been done in the last, you know, four cycles [00:46:00] doesn’t work, but, um, I, you know, maybe if you took some of those lessons about how, you know, like, Millennials actually voted for Obama, um, you know, like, I don’t know, maybe have a candidate who actually inspires people, I don’t know, but like, You know, but like, just, just a shock, but, or, or here’s a shock, here’s, here’s an idea. [00:46:19] Have somebody under 60 run. Like that’s just throwing it out there. Just throwing it out there. Right. And, and, and that’s not even a dig at Kamala’s age or anything. She was far younger than anybody else running, but like, you know, he, Obama was in his forties. And, and we, you know, we hadn’t had that. Um, I mean, I guess Bill Clinton was, but like, you know, like, that’s, it’s a very rare thing to have. [00:46:41] And it’s like, we need that again. Um, especially, you know, at this point when we have all this, you know, this old man kind of, um, energy, uh, for the last, you know, it’s going to be 12 years. Um, but, but by the time, um, uh, this, this next term of office is, is over, you know, remains to be seen if, [00:47:00] if the, the 78 year old, um, you know, Makes it through the whole thing, but regardless like it’ll be, you know, 12 years of Oldman being elected. [00:47:09] Um, I don’t know so maybe that’s like my, my sense of hope. Uh, sorry for the pun. Um, of being like, maybe this will be like a wake up call moment where once we kind of reassess people can be like, okay, now how can we, As, as a party, as kind of a, you know, um, institution, whatever you want to, want to call the thing, you know, uh, an ideology, how can we, like, reassess how we actually fucking win? [00:47:37] And, uh, maybe, maybe you can only do that if you get your ass fucking killed, like, and beat, in every way that you can be beat. [00:47:45] Jeff: Yeah. And then, looking forward, before we do Grapptitude, [00:47:51] it’s gonna be a funny pivot. [00:47:53] The Long Haul of Fascism [00:47:53] Jeff: Looking forward, I do, I mean, the other part of Processing all of this is like, fascism [00:48:00] is a long haul. And, and whether it, no matter how many of those letters are capitalized in the version that we’re going to get, um, it’s a long haul and, and it’s not the fight or a fight. [00:48:12] It’s, you got to stay on your feet somehow. Like you can burn out, flame out so fast. And I’ve known people who live in. Fascist states, totalitarian states, and, and I, and I’ve seen them on the, on the tail end, like Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, where, I mean, there were certainly people resisting and quietly being killed, but like, I’ve definitely seen the end where everyone’s like, look, this is just what it is, you know? Um, and, and that’s because it’s so total that you know, that your neighbors could rat on you and that’s how total it gets. Right. And so it’s definitely important to know what that can look like and, and to look out for signs of it. Um, and, and I do think, and I know I’m sure you do too. I do look forward and think this is going to be a horror show [00:48:58] and, [00:49:00] and sometimes it’s not as bad as we think, but a lot of times, um, it’s in ways we forgot to imagine. And, and like, I’m. I, part of the resting thing for me is like just being grounded enough to be able to take it all in. And, and while keeping, while keeping hold of myself, [00:49:20] Processing Political Stress [00:49:20] Jeff: I was, I remember thinking, especially during the pandemic in the early days when he was giving press conferences every day and, and he was just making us all terrified and, and everything. Um, I remember my wife and I started doing what we called worry walks. We’re like, let’s process this motherfucker on the sidewalk so that when we’re home, we can just be home. [00:49:41] And so we’d just take a walk every day and just be like, all right, what are you freaked out about? What are you pissed about, about this guy? [00:49:45] We’d process him. That asshole went on every walk with us for most of 2020. Goddamn him. Um, and, and I, I, the thing I keep thinking about too, is like, you know, How hard it is to keep that guy out of your body, which, which has all kinds of meanings different for women than it [00:50:00] does for men different for me right now than it does for almost, you know, what I’m talking strictly semantically, like, how do you keep them out of your fucking body? Like, how do you keep them from like, moving into your house? Right? Like, and that’s, that’s the thing that’s so One of the such wicked things about him is the way that he, he takes us all with him. I mean, even if you don’t want to, I was joking with my wife, like Biden should pass an executive order funding the therapy for everybody who didn’t vote for Trump for the next, at least two months, because we’re going to use it up on the federal government. [00:50:34] And it should be a federal response. [00:50:36] Christina: It should be. It should be. No, no, no. I’m with you. And like the, and the hard thing is, is you’re right. Is it’s like, we, we want to like, how do you keep it out of your body? Um, but at the same time, like, cause part of me, I’m still here, right? I’m still in this place. This is not where I will be in a month, um, this is where I am right now, but there is a part of me that wants to [00:51:00] be like, okay, fuck it. [00:51:02] You voted for this. Let it burn. Let it fail. Sometimes the only way that you can actually show people. That sometimes the only way you can show people like what mistakes they’ve made is if you fucking let it fall apart. Um, and, and to a certain extent, that was also a lesson from 2004, right? Like a lot of things happened, you know, the war progressively got worse than we had, the financial crisis and everything else. [00:51:23] Reflections on 2008 and Racism [00:51:23] Christina: And like, I think that as much, I mean, obviously Obama ran a great campaign, great person, but he had to overcome being a black man in 2008. Um, you know, and, and, uh, it would, [00:51:34] Jeff: With the name Barack Hussein Obama. [00:51:36] Christina: Correct. Right. He, he, he, he had to over, exactly. He had, he had to overcome all of that baggage in a time when, you know, despite what people might want to say, oh, this is the worst time for, you know, types of, people’s like, no, it was actually worse then, right? [00:51:48] Like, things have actually improved. Like, it’s hard sometimes to see how much things have improved when things still seem bad and we still seem so far off with, with equity. Um, but things are, better. And things that like [00:52:00] rhetoric that people could get away with then you couldn’t do now like I remember driving through Kentucky in 2008 and seeing people having I mean, this is awful. [00:52:10] I mean, this is, it was one of the things that made me so embarrassed to be from the South, which is something I don’t have any control over, um, to be clear, right? Like, I have no choice over where I was raised and, and where I was born. Like, I have nothing to do with that. But like, I saw people who had, um, nooses and like, stuffed Obama dolls hanging their houses. [00:52:35] Jeff: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. [00:52:38] Christina: September, October 2008, right? And that was the sort of thing like that, that made me embarrassed to be in the South. It made me embarrassed to be an American. Like, that’s the sort of thing like viscerally, like, yes, right? And, and the fact that people were just doing it on main, right? [00:52:53] Like, forget about people, people like, oh, people are really coming out with their full racism on Twitter and TikTok now. Yeah, you’re right. Um, but like, let’s not [00:53:00] pretend people weren’t like literally like from their houses, right? In neighborhoods, just, Out there, right? Like, it was just an acceptable sort of thing. [00:53:08] Um, I, I, I do think that you would have a much harder time doing that now, right? Which, which is a good thing, right? That’s progress. But, but anyway, my point being, like, I think that we could, and I’m, I’m sorry, I’m rambling, like, we could, There, there’s an argument we made, I guess, that it’s like, maybe we, things do have to fall apart for people to realize what, what, what it is they did. [00:53:32] And, and we just have to hope that, that our democracy is strong enough to, you know, survive this sort of thing, even some failings, so that we can get to, you know, another general election and, and, you know, um, Uh, maybe, you know, better people can be put in charge and that it doesn’t devolve like, you know, some fascist regimes do where, you know, it does become essentially, you know, like tyranny and [00:54:00] people don’t have real choice and people are afraid to do other things, right? [00:54:02] Like, so, you know, I do understand like, because part of me is there. I’m like, I fucking let it fall apart. And then there’s another part of me too, where like, back to my anger, I’m getting great joy and, and hitting stop on every fucking text I get from the DNC who’s asking me for money now or asking me for anything else. [00:54:19] I’m like, fuck you. You know what? I will give you money in a couple years as I, as I have before, but right now I don’t want to see any of your texts and I sure as fuck don’t want to give you a dime. And so I feel like, [00:54:29] Jeff: out which nonprofit came out the day after being like, we’re ready. We just need your money. I was like, Hey, fuck you. I [00:54:36] like, I don’t [00:54:37] Christina: like, absolutely not. [00:54:37] Jeff: man. Like, yeah. [00:54:39] Not doing that. [00:54:40] Christina: absolutely not. Well, that’s the thing, too. It’s like, if you came out, if you were like, This is what we’re gonna do different, and this is why we need it, great. [00:54:48] Jeff: Yeah. [00:54:48] Christina: But, but, A, you don’t have that now. Even, even the best equipped people don’t have that now. B, it’s like, read the fucking room, right? [00:54:57] Like, [00:54:58] Jeff: way, it’s no different. So [00:55:00] in the days before the election, I got, uh, the business I’m part of, we got a, um, we got an email from our liability insurance provider that said, do you have a plan for civil unrest? And I was like, man, that’s callous. I realized it’s a cynical business and that’s a cynical fucking move. [00:55:16] And that’s exactly what I felt the day after when I forget who it was. It wouldn’t be a shock to anybody, whoever it was, but it was just like, no, no, not yet. [00:55:26] Grieving Political Losses [00:55:26] Jeff: Now I want to say a closing word about Tim Walz and the woman who would have been our governor, Peggy Flanagan. Yesterday I watched, um, again, Tim Walz playing crazy taxi and talking about his Sega Dreamcast, [00:55:39] um, on a Twitch stream with AOC. [00:55:41] And I want to say that the thing that I loved about Walz and I. I had a lot of issues as well. It’s not about most of his agenda in Minnesota, but during the George Floyd uprising it, you know, it’s probably like objectively okay that he sent in the National Guard when he did, um, [00:56:00] although that makes me terrified and very scared because I’ve seen that same National Guard in other contexts [00:56:07] and and seeing how quickly things can go from like, well, this feels all right, to like, whoa, that’s a checkpoint and you just killed somebody in a car. Um, but he actually, when the Chauvin trial was happening, he sent the National Guard preemptively. And I had a military convoy go down my street. That was like one I would have seen when I was in Baghdad in 2003. And that was, that was very, very upsetting to me that, that it was that easy for him to make that call when there was no credible threat of anything that would warrant. [00:56:33] The National Guard. And when you can just do be responsive, you can be responsive. It’s okay. Like you can let in America where we are allowed to protest, you can go ahead and just let the protests go [00:56:44] and then decide if in your role, with your mindset, your view on the world, do you need to send in the National [00:56:50] Guard? [00:56:51] Like you can do that after the fact. And I had [00:56:53] Christina: do that. [00:56:54] Jeff: I had basically checkpoints. I had many of the streets in my neighborhood, my pharmacy, my grocery store, my gas [00:57:00] station. There was a Humvee on one side of the road and a Humvee on the other. And the thing I, I tired, people tired of hearing me say, but I have seen it. It was like. I want you to know that two things, people would be like, well, their magazines aren’t in their guns. It’s like, you know, soldiers are trained to get their magazines in their guns pretty quickly. That is a nice gesture, but this isn’t like a huge point of comfort. The other one is when you have a Humvee on either side of the street, it is just a matter of seconds before it’s a checkpoint. [00:57:22] And once you have a checkpoint, a whole new range of possibilities opens up and almost none of them are good. And so anyway, I was upset with him. Flash forward to me watching him play Crazy Taxi and talk about a Dreamcast. [00:57:35] Christina: You’re [00:57:35] Jeff: I was like, first of all, Crazy Taxi is just not a game anyone references, but in my house, it is a beloved [00:57:41] Christina: Oh yeah. Mine too. Mine too. I mean, I mean, I mean, look, the, the, the, the trailer, we used to play it at, at my very first job and, and, and it would just be that, that offspring song and, and showing the whole thing. And, and, and so it was like, it was like, it was like, it was like two minutes of bliss because we had like these promo videos that we would run. [00:57:57] And I was always so excited because I was like, man, I get to listen to [00:58:00] good music at work. Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:02] Jeff: yeah. [00:58:03] Christina: But like, but the game was so fun. The music was great. You know, it was just this ridiculous thing where it was, it was very similar to, in some ways, Grand Theft Auto 3, which was the first good Grand Theft Auto, where like, you could run people over like accidentally. [00:58:15] And in fact, there was like, there were missions in both Grand Theft Auto 3 and in Vice City, which were taxi missions, which were basically crazy taxi, but in GTA. And you know, which, which is [00:58:27] Jeff: Crazy Taxi is like, is like the equivalent of Oops All Berries for video games in relationship to GTA, where it’s [00:58:33] like, all you’re taking out is the fun driving and the wacky people and the [00:58:37] things that you can do driving down the street with people. You take that out, you leave all the other stuff over with GTA and the Vice game and everything else. It’s totally, I just realized that it’s the Oops All Berries of video games. [00:58:47] Christina: It totally is. It totally is. But it’s so fun. It’s so fun. [00:58:50] Jeff: Yeah, and the thing that I appreciated about him as a VP candidate was really that he was never someone who seemed like he was working towards that. And all of a sudden he was there.[00:59:00] [00:59:00] And I’m actually kind of glad to see him not get sucked into the imperialist machine, even though [00:59:06] it exists at every level and him being able to deploy the National Guard is a version of that. But what I’m really sad about is Peggy Flanagan, who would have been the first Native American governor in the country, um, and who is, like, objectively a good person, uh, would have become our governor, and what is extra beautiful about that, and I don’t think this is strictly, um, cynical politicking is that there’s a picture I love. [00:59:34] So I have this shirt that says protect trans kids in this like, really like, um, aggressive font. And then it has a knife on it and a rose on it. It’s just a very aggressive shirt. And, and there’s a great photo of her wearing that shirt and smiling. And like, and I feel like if I could have had a governor that was willing to take the chance of wearing that shirt, and then possibly meaning it, um, not with the knife, but you know what I mean? [00:59:58] Like, I would have been [01:00:00] pretty. Pretty amazing to both get Tim Walz to where he was going to be, which I guess would have been obscurity for four years, but, and then to get her as a, as a, and so I’m, I’m, I’m grieving a little bit losing her, but I, I do, and this isn’t something my circle completely agrees on. [01:00:15] I am very happy to still have him as our governor. I think we’re the only state that has a consolation prize, um, in this election, which is to get him back. [01:00:25] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. No, I’m, I’m happy for you. I’m happy you like him. I mean, it’s, it, it, and hopefully, you know, that she will have, like, next, I mean, so, is this his second term or his first term? [01:00:35] Jeff: it’s his second. [01:00:36] Christina: Okay, so, so maybe she can, you know, uh, have a, have a strong showing to be able to run, um, uh, whenever, you know, this, this term is up. [01:00:44] Jeff: I will say she, she was one of the people, one of the politicians in the country that dressed as Tim Walz for Halloween, [01:00:50] Christina: amazing. [01:00:51] Jeff: which [01:00:51] is just like, wow, maybe you do really like this guy. That’s a good sign too. [01:00:56] Christina: Yeah, yeah, [01:00:57] Jeff: mean, I, it’s funny because when I talk about all [01:01:00] this stuff, like I, I, I am someone who holds like, I know we’re both like this, you can hold two truths next to each other. [01:01:05] One is that I don’t believe. That there can be anybody that walks into the White House and could do the kind of good that I would hope they can do. Um, I was horrified and zero surprised and have been about the, the handling of Gaza and didn’t vote. Um, would not have never, would never have not voted because of that. [01:01:24] Um, in part, because that machine is, is rolling, rolling, rolling, [01:01:29] and whoever, whoever enters the office is, is being, is being chewed up by that machine and is too much of a sort of something to to compromise to make, you know, meaningful decisions of integrity, not to say it’s not complex, but it obviously, there’s a simplicity to that many people dying. So I do hold also like this sense of like, burn the system down. But [01:01:52] I’m also like, that’s Steve Earle, my son and I went and saw Steve Earle a few months ago. And he’s like, He’s very [01:02:00] radical and he’s, he’s like, look, everybody vote. The election day is not where you vote your hopes and dreams and aspirations. [01:02:06] It’s a transactional affair. And, and so go do your transaction, right? Like, [01:02:12] and I really appreciated that, that take. Um, but anyway, and I liked him. Well, sorry if anybody’s mad at me for saying it. [01:02:20] Christina: No, I, I like him too. I mean, if anything, I mean, like, look, are there, look, and I don’t live in Minnesota, so I can’t speak to what his, you know, time there was like as a governor and I I don’t think any politician of any, you know, thing when we’re talking about like governor, president, whatever, like, even smaller than that can be, can be perfect and to your point can do the good that we always want them to do. [01:02:43] There’s a certain, um, amount of, um, uh, both like just realistic requirements of like what you can and can’t control and there’s also a certain amount So, there’s a lot of ego that’s involved with people who are actually capable of reaching those jobs that, that, that can, you know, interfere with [01:03:00] maybe, um, always standing to your principles, right? [01:03:03] Like, even I think probably our most principled president, Jimmy Carter, probably made decisions, you know, as a politician that were, that were, were, were, were, you know, to, to get elected or self serving or whatnot and not just for doing the right thing. Because if you always do the right thing, you’re never going to win and then you can’t accomplish anything, right? [01:03:17] So, I, I can recognize those trade offs, but I, you know, I, I, not having lived in his state. I, I wasn’t familiar with him, but I liked him. I liked his personality. I did, I was a little annoyed that like it did seem like on the campaign, I mean, and part of it too, this is again, me again, I’m just, I’m in blame mode. [01:03:33] I’m, I’m just angry. You know, it felt like he was sidelined maybe to some extent during, um, uh, the, the, the, the campaign. Although at the same time, you’d be saying, well, What else is a, is a VP supposed to do? Um, obviously he was not going to be able to out debate, um, uh, J. D. Vance, although, you know, it wasn’t horrible, but he, you know, he, um, w w was [01:03:55] Jeff: wait, there’s a, there’s a podcast called the Says Who Podcast, my friend Dan does it. [01:04:00] He, he described that debate in the most beautiful way. He said it was like being stuck in a car with a fart. [01:04:04] Christina: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, you’re exactly right. Right. But, but what I mean is, is that it’s like, okay, so, you know, there, Uh, we can make arguments like, Oh, you know, he wasn’t, you know, um, maybe used enough on the campaign trail around. I have no idea. It did feel like he was, you know, maybe like a better surrogate before he was VP, but I liked him. [01:04:23] And, and I, um, I hope that this isn’t the last we ever see from him. Right? Like, obviously the man is never going to be president. Um, and I, I don’t think that he would even want to be, but, yeah. Hopefully there is a day when there will be like a administration or something else where, you know, he could play a part if he wants to, but at the very least, I’m happy that at least the people of Minnesota have what seems like a genuinely good guy who genuinely does care, right? [01:04:48] And who’s willing to like get on stream and fucking play Crazy Taxi [01:04:52] Jeff: Which is how, let’s just go ahead and imagine him, let’s pretend that he’s just waiting for the next big call, but he’s doing that just playing crazy taxi [01:05:00] in his basement while [01:05:00] Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:05:02] Jeff: He’s just like, I need to rest. That’s right, Jeff. I need to rest. [01:05:06] Christina: He’s like, I need to rest. And, and then they’re like, wait, you know, you’ve gotta pick up, you know, like you’ve, you’ve got, you, you’ve got, you know, 20 seconds [01:05:12] Jeff: Yeah, [01:05:13] exactly. Exactly. [01:05:14] Christina: to pick up your customer, you know, or, or, or you lose. Um, yeah, no, I mean, yeah. Uh, resting on, on the governing side of not resting on, um, you know, moonlighting as a, uh, crazy taxi driver in Southern California. [01:05:28] Um. [01:05:29] Jeff: Exactly. [01:05:30] Christina: All right. So we’ve talked about all the things, well, I’ve talked about the things that I’m mad at. [01:05:34] You’ve been trying to keep me more in line. Do we want to talk about some things we’re [01:05:36] Jeff: I’m not trying to keep in line, shit, [01:05:39] Christina: No, I know. No, you’re, you’re, you’re not trying to keep me in line. You’re just, you’re being more, you’re, you’re like in a, you’re in a more healthy place than I am at this point, but that’s okay. [01:05:45] I’m, I’m [01:05:46] Jeff: Maybe just externally. [01:05:48] Grapptitude: Tech Tools and Apps [01:05:48] Jeff: Um, so yeah, Grapptitude. Uh, it’s funny. Like I’ve been trying to shift my brain into Grapptitude and all I keep thinking about is how, um, [01:06:00] how I recently used something we, that I learned about from you in Grapptitude, which is, um, was it from Brett? Find any file? [01:06:07] Um, uh, it’s just a great, very old app. [01:06:11] And it’s funny cause I use, and I’m going to say it cause I, I don’t have anything new to say today. Um, and, uh, I use Who to spot for everything, but [01:06:19] like, when I want to search system files, like, find a file is just right there. It’s ready to do it. And it’s been such a huge help to me this week, just based on the kind of work that I’ve been doing. Um, so that’s one bit. And then I’m going to do a second one just cause they’re both sort of repeats of past. Uh, so I I’ve used drafts ever and ever and ever. [01:06:41] Um, but I only just finally sat down and Super configured my actions and my like custom actions. Menu, because I’ve always just like had a million action groups on there. [01:06:55] So if I was doing Markdown, I’d go to the Markdown one. If I was doing whatever, I’d go to this [01:07:00] one. I was just bouncing around. It was super inefficient and I could never find what I was looking for. And so I, I finally decided to configure and make my own custom sort of like toolbar that helps me do everything that I personally do all the time in drafts. [01:07:13] And I don’t know how it took me these many years. Cause I’ve been using it for probably, it hasn’t been around more than a decade. I think I’ve [01:07:18] been using [01:07:18] Christina: it’s been about a decade. Yeah. [01:07:20] Jeff: Yeah, I mean, I think I’ve been using it since pretty much the beginning as like the place I go to, to where all my text starts, as everyone says, um, but I have just been blown away because part of doing that was looking at what I might want that I don’t use, um, and I’ve just been blown away by what I can do, uh, my, uh, my continued frustration with that app, and I’m Sure. [01:07:41] There’s a decent explanation for this is that I can’t use it. Like I use Envy Ultra or almost any other sort of text based app that I like, which is I can’t have a folder of text files that I can act upon from any app. It has to be in that app, which means when I search who to spot, I don’t get things that are in drafts. [01:07:59] This [01:08:00] drives me crazy. Crazy. But that’s how much I love the app, that like, I am constantly overcoming that, that total frustration. There’s one super hacky workaround for that, that allows you to at least, this is the other thing you can’t do with it. Now I’m just, now it’s grAPPtitude, [01:08:14] uh, is you can’t open your thing in another, in an external editor. [01:08:17] I can’t open it in Sublime Text and do all the things I do so quickly for the last 10 years to my friends. to my plain text. Um, I have to paste it in and come back and there’s a hack for that that’s really wonky or wanky. Let’s say wanky. Um, but anyway, all that said, I fucking love drafts and I cannot believe really what a perfect app it is except for those two things that otherwise would feel big to me, but because it’s so perfect, it’s not. [01:08:40] So those are my two. [01:08:42] Christina: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s, it’s a great app and I think I’ve, I think I’ve used some of those workarounds for a long time that like I’ve, I’ve been. Um, okay with like, you know, that aspect, but you’re right, like, it’s so good you want to use it everywhere. Um, and yeah, the automation stuff is, is really [01:09:00] great. Um, I also have to say like, as just like a, an iOS app, you know, like on my iPad and my iPhone especially, like, it is so good because the thing is, is that if I’m being real, I have a lot of options on my desktop, um, for, for doing any sort of notes stuff, so many options. [01:09:16] And so drafts is not always where I go. Uh, but on mobile it’s different. If I’m wanting to do something where I’m really wanting to do like, especially like a more, you know, like, um, uh, markdown kind of centric, you know, like heavy sort of thing that I know I’m going to be converting to other formats and whatnot. [01:09:33] Like, I know some people like Ulysses and Ulysses is great. Um, but. Yeah, I mean, it doesn’t really work with, I guess, kind of my flow, where it’s like, is beautiful. And, and I think that if, if you are, if it works for like your kind of like writing flow and your workflow, like, awesome. But I’m somebody, [01:09:51] Jeff: it does yeah. [01:09:52] Christina: but, but, but I am somebody who like, I actually, you know, like to have kind of my, my automations and integrations and, and see my markdown and like, [01:10:00] you know, see like what that looks like and, and, and type that kind of stuff out. [01:10:04] And so, um, I, I love drafts. Um, [01:10:07] Jeff: Well, and, oh sorry, go ahead. [01:10:09] Christina: no, no, I was just going to say, I love it. [01:10:11] Jeff: And, and also, since you’re talking about iOS, like, the thing that’s amazing that is Part of my toolbar, because I mostly use it on iOS, is like, I can do the things on iOS that I can only do in VS Code or Sublime [01:10:23] Text otherwise. So I have buttons that allow me, yeah, I have buttons that allow me to skip forward by a word, go to the beginning or the end of the line, move a line up or down, like [01:10:31] the kinds of things you could never imagine doing on iOS, I can do with just a little button that’s at the bottom of the screen, and that is incredible. [01:10:37] Christina: No, I, I feel the same way. Like, honestly, I think like the iOS thing is, yeah, because, yeah, I can use any number of text editors and have, um, on Mac, right? But it was in, in, and I think that’s why it was an iOS app first, and it’s great that it is on the Mac, um, because then you can have access to all of your files and stuff there. [01:10:52] But for me, like, it was one of those things that I was like, no, I want to have, you know, originally, I mean, this is how long the app has been around. Like, you know, it was [01:11:00] kind of, I was like, I need my, TestMate on, you know, my phone. Um, at least the way I use TestMate, right? Not so much as coding, but for writing. [01:11:09] And, um, and with the action stuff, especially, it’s, it’s just really, really good. Um, and, uh, um, uh, big fan. Um, so, um, yeah, plus one on that. Great, great, great work. Um, also the developer is just such a great guy too. And so it’s just, you know, I always love to support identity. Good dubs. Um, also another app that he makes, um, uh, this is, uh, I think this is a free one. [01:11:33] I, I don’t even know if it has any in app purchase things. I think it might be completely free. Um, but if you want a really good, um, like, um, a thesaurus slash dictionary sort of thing on iOS, there’s an app called Terminology that he makes and it is really, really good because like the built in, um, uh, Like, Thesaurus on macOS is actually pretty great, but there isn’t anything like that built into the iPhone. [01:11:56] And so, terminology is, and so it’s [01:12:00] awesome where, you know, you have those moments where you’re like, what’s a word for this? Terminology is. [01:12:05] Jeff: Yes. [01:12:06] Totally, totally plus one on that one. [01:12:09] Ghostty: The New Terminal Emulator [01:12:09] Christina: um, okay, so my pick this week, um, is actually a little bit of a tease, and I apologize for this, but I did still want to give it a shout out. Um, it will be available in a couple of weeks for everyone, but you can get access now if you join their Discord. So, um, I don’t know if you are familiar, uh, Brett, with, um, uh, Mitchell, um, uh, from, uh, the creator of, uh, Hashicorp. [01:12:31] Um, uh, you know, Terraform and, and all that stuff. Okay. So, so, uh, Mitchell Hashimoto created a company called, uh, HashiCorp, which, um, was, uh, then, um, I think when public and it was been acquired and is worth lots and lots of money, and he stepped down from, um, them, um, a couple years ago and just decided to be a rich guy. [01:12:51] And, um, uh, he, [01:12:54] Jeff: Oh! I know who this guy is! My son talks about him all the time. Yeah, okay. Go [01:12:58] Christina: Okay. Anyway, um, [01:13:00] he has been building for like the last year, he’s been building a new terminal emulator, like in public. And I know what you’re thinking, Christina, you’ve talked about terminal emulators before. You told us about Westerm like a few months ago. Like, do we need another one? Well, yes. Right. [01:13:14] Cause as much as I love iTerm2 and, and like Brett and I talked about that at length, um, a while back and as much as I give to their, like Patreon and everything now, like I’m a big, big fan. There are some things that it does that are slower, like it’s beautiful, but there are some things just the way that it does things that are slower if you’re doing a lot of actions and whatnot. [01:13:35] Um, and, um, this is where some of the Rust, um, uh, based, um, terminal emulators are really great. Um, Ghosty, which is what Mich Mitchell has been working on, um, it’s actually based in which is, I guess, like kind of a similar, kind of, it’s. Similar to Rust in that it’s very fast, um, but he’s been working on making it, like, the most accurate, like, kind of best terminal emulator he can make, and it’s also a [01:14:00] native app, so it’s available, it’s cross platform, unlike iTerm, so that, that’s one of the cool things, so it’ll work on, um, uh, Linux and, um, uh, Mac, and the Windows support is, is there, but it’s coming, I’ll be honest, I think Windows Terminal is pretty great, but it is, it is coming there as well, um, he’s been writing a lot of stuff on, on his blog, kind of devlogs about it, and he actually released a thing, like, Uh, two weeks ago, basically being like, ghosty 1. [01:14:20] 0 is coming and saying it’ll be publicly released in, in, um, 2024, uh, December 2024 as an open source project under the MIT license, which is awesome. And then he kind of talks about how he wants it to basically be the best drop in replacement for your kernel, current terminal, terminal emulator, you know, Mac OS or Linux. [01:14:38] Um, and, uh, yeah. I’d been seeing his tweets and I’d been seeing other stuff and I was like, man, how good can this really be? Um, I joined their Discord, which I will have linked because right now it is in private beta, but they are letting people in the Discord in fairly often. And I don’t even think I engaged in the Discord, but it, maybe it was a week and, and I was given access. [01:14:58] And so then I have access to the [01:15:00] GitHub where you can file issues, but the Discord community is also really great of terminal nerds, you know, very responsible to feedback. Daily updates are coming. And I’ve been using it. Um, there are still some things that I prefer about iTerm2, but part of that could probably just be like 18 years of, of using it. [01:15:18] Um, but, um, I really, really, really like Ghostie. So it’s free, it’s open source, it’s cross platform, it’s very fast, and the Mac app is native as fuck. So, um, you know, there are, uh, right now, the, the way the preferences work, it’s a config file, and you can access that in, in the Mac app and kind of enter in what you want to enter in. [01:15:37] But there’s not a GUI. Um, but if I, but if we can be real, the GUI for the preferences in iTerm is really not any better understandable. Like, it’s, it’s, it, you know what I mean? Like, like, let’s be real, like, [01:15:51] Jeff: Like, I know it because I’ve been using it a long time, but [01:15:54] every [01:15:54] Christina: even then, even [01:15:55] Jeff: reset, I’m just like, oh boy. [01:15:58] Christina: You have to reset. And then in that [01:16:00] case, you have to like find the plist file, right? [01:16:01] Like in this case, like you have, like it, it, it, it by default will create a config file in your dot config folder in your home folder, dot config slash ghosty slash, um, uh, config. And, um, you know, you can then port that, you know, to other machines. Um, so you can, you know, sync that with your dot files and get or anything else, which is really great. [01:16:20] Um, it automatically will pick up, um, like if you already have like a, um, you know, like, Oh my Zosh or. Or Zshell, whether OmaiPosh or OmaiZshell or, or one of the other, like, uh, you know, managed, managed things, like customized, um, you know, uh, terminal, it should pick up on those settings automatically, um, but even out of the box, the defaults are really good. [01:16:41] Um, I, I like it. So, so Ghosty, Ghosty is my pick, um, and, and join their Discord because their Discord is, is cool. Um, I’m, I, uh, was like kind of refreshingly surprised to see. It’s rare to see like a cross platform community of terminal owners because usually it is [01:17:00] just like the Linux ricers and nothing against them but like I use a real desktop operating system for a reason and you know I don’t always want to like You know, I think it’s important to hear about that stuff. [01:17:12] So like, it’s a nice mix of, of, of, you know, Windows and, and, uh, and, or not Windows, um, Mac and Linux people, some Windows people there too, but, but, um, Windows is a little bit, um, harder, um, support wise. Um, it hasn’t been a priority, but they are, they do have builds. So, um, Ghosty is, uh, that was very long of me, but Ghosty is my [01:17:32] Jeff: No, I just, I put that stuff in the show notes, including the Discord server, and I just joined the Discord server, because I want to play. [01:17:41] Christina: Yeah. And, um, I’ll talk to you offline, I’ll get you, I’ll get you the latest DMG, it’ll auto update, so. [01:17:48] Jeff: thanks. [01:17:50] Christina: Look, this is, this is gonna be MIT licensed. I don’t, I don’t feel [01:17:53] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, right, right, [01:17:54] Christina: being like, here you go. [01:17:56] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. [01:18:00] Alright, awesome. [01:18:02] Closing Thoughts and Self-Care [01:18:02] Jeff: Well, might get some sleep, I doubt it. [01:18:06] Christina: Yeah. I’m gonna, I’m gonna try to, um, I haven’t been sleeping well, um, understandably, but we’ll, we’ll see. Um, I, uh, have a cold as well, so I don’t know, I’d like, I’d like to get some sleep. We’ll see. But yeah, uh, take care of yourself, um, and all of you out there, I know this week is gonna be hard for a lot of you too, so take care, take care of yourself and, uh, do, do, do whatever you need to, yeah, get some sleep and, uh, Brett, Brett, Brett, Brett, most importantly take care of yourself.

Brett, Jeff, and the fabulous Jay Miller dive into hilarious and chaotic tales of surviving corporate reorgs, handling ADHD, and wrestling with DevRel magic. From API designing demands to repeated layoffs, they share hearty laughs and personal struggles. Jeff finds mental solace in his organized workshop, crafting metal art while Brett recounts school rebellions. The trio also discuss AI tools, secret SkunkWorks projects, and quirky app designs. Expect tech talk tangents, live coding passion, and a touch of corporate drama – all with a dose of irreverent humor! Sponsor 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional IAM and MDM can’t . It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entra, and in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password.com/overtired. Highlights https://overtiredpod.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Highlight-Reel-of-Give-Yourself-a-Five.mp4 Chapters 00:00 Welcome and Introductions 00:32 Merlin Episodes and Podcasting Dreams 01:50 Mental Health Corner: Jay’s Work Challenges 14:40 Mental Health Corner: Brett’s Health Journey 20:55 Jeff’s Workshop and Mental Health 28:15 Sponsor Break: 1Password 32:13 Work and Developer Relations at Oracle 35:07 Crafting Personalized Outreach with AI 35:37 Effective Blogger Engagement Strategies 36:32 Building Genuine Connections in Tech 37:30 Innovative Projects and Their Impact 39:50 Challenges of Corporate Metrics 43:01 The Value of Unquantifiable Work in DevRel 45:13 Exploring Useful Apps and Tools 54:03 The Future of Link Management 01:03:39 Encouraging Open Source Development 01:04:17 Live Coding and Teaching Insights Show Links https://kjaymiller.com What I learned from a boring contribution Surviving the Whirlwind. A Ramble after (yet another) round of Layoffs Jeff’s Mastodon posts about his lathe Dinner in the shop! Polishing century-old handles! Extracted the spindle assembly! I’m going to be brave! Front and Center Zellij Zellij bananas roadmap LinkWarden HistoryHound Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Give Yourself a Five [00:00:00] Welcome and Introductions [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome to Overtired. Yes, that’s two weeks in a row consecutively. Um, this is Brett Terpstra. I am here with Jeff Severns Guntzel. Christina is out, but in her stead, we have the fabulous Jay Miller. Uh, you can find him at kjaymiller. com. How’s it going, Jay? [00:00:19] Jeff: It’s good. It’s good. Glad to be back. [00:00:22] Jay: Hi, Jay. [00:00:24] Brett: So, [00:00:25] Jay: I feel like this is four in a row. [00:00:27] Brett: is it really? [00:00:28] Jay: I think so. [00:00:29] Jeff: There’s been a lot. I’ve been excited. I’ve been listening. [00:00:32] Merlin Episodes and Podcasting Dreams [00:00:32] Brett: Thanks to, thanks to Jeff and his fill in Merlin episodes, I [00:00:36] Jay: Yeah, you get who you can. [00:00:38] Jeff: The Merlin sodes have been, have been good. [00:00:42] Jay: That was a, that was a blast talking to Merlin. It was really, really lovely. [00:00:45] Brett: Merlin told us that he would come on anytime, uh, if we could stand him. Um, so yeah, we, there will be more Merlin episodes. Look [00:00:57] Jay: The funny thing about talking to Merlin [00:01:00] one on one is that I’ve been listening. I mean, probably like all of us, maybe listening to Merlin’s podcasts for like 12 years. Um, and there aren’t many other podcasts that I listen to regularly. I would say I listened to one of his podcasts every week. I don’t usually listen to all of them. [00:01:14] Jay: And I used to have this dream that I was on some podcast I loved or another, and I just really, really messed it up. And it was just, I’d wake up feeling like such a failure. And the first time Merlin got on, I was like, Oh, this is that dream where I’m like talking to someone that I’ve only really known through podcasts. [00:01:32] Jay: And it’s got to work. Anyway, it was really nice. It was delightful. [00:01:35] Brett: Someone, someone said, uh, I like it when you have Merlin on because unlike his other podcasts, he hasn’t gotten comfortable enough to just descend into grievances. [00:01:49] Jay: That’s funny. [00:01:50] Mental Health Corner: Jay’s Work Challenges [00:01:50] Brett: All right, should we, uh, should we kick it off with the Mental Health Corner, our longest running, um, uh, segment? [00:01:58] Jay: Yes, [00:01:59] Jeff: Yeah.[00:02:00] [00:02:00] Brett: Uh, Jay, would you like to go first? [00:02:02] Jeff: I always feel like when I lead it, it’s the worst. I’m always super long and I guess me muting things as, [00:02:11] Jay: the guest. [00:02:12] Jeff: okay, that’s fine. I’ll own it. So, yeah, work has been interesting, uh, as I put in a blog post recently, I have survived yet another layoff, um, that’s the, [00:02:26] Brett: missed that. [00:02:27] Jeff: yeah, that’s the second one at this company, and I’ve only been here since February, which is great, um, the third re org, which is, you know, company’s gonna company, I [00:02:39] Brett: In how long? [00:02:40] Jeff: since February. [00:02:41] Brett: Since February. Third reorg since February. That’s even worse than mine. [00:02:45] Jeff: our entire original department is gone. Our company has no more marketing department. [00:02:51] Brett: Yeah, that does sound like Oracle. [00:02:54] Jeff: they’re like, we just don’t need this anymore. Um, but what’s funny is I was, [00:03:00] I, I’m not a movie person, so I don’t have like a great reference other than like Suicide Squad. I, I kind of got called into this Suicide Squad of a team that was like, hey, You have a special set of skills and we’re going to do a thing and we’re not going to let half the company know what we’re doing except for we’re only going to give them snippets of what’s happening behind the scenes. [00:03:29] Jeff: Um, and you’re responsible for giving those snippets because that’s your superpower here. Um, so do you want to be loved by this team of like 10 people and hated by the other 180 people on in the company? because you’re just not doing the things that we normally do. [00:03:45] Jay: 10 people are. Yeah. [00:03:49] Jeff: very senior staff level engineers, architects, like this is, this is all good. [00:03:54] Jeff: And that’s why I feel like the, the analogy is breaking down a little bit, but I got, I got [00:04:00] asked to be on a special team at work. The team is doing some like not so top secret, secret stuff, but what’s interesting about it is my role on the team is part. API designer, part like project manager, part developer advocate. [00:04:24] Jeff: So there’s, there’s a lot going on, but it very much reemphasized some of the things that I’ve been working on in a recent blog post, um, or series of blog posts, which are like, what are the valuable skills that engineering. teams or development teams actually need that aren’t coding because I’ve seen a lot of code. [00:04:52] Jeff: I’ve seen a lot of production level code. They’re not hiring people for their coding skills. That’s obvious. Um, code is bad. [00:05:00] Um, and no matter how big or small the company is, the code just gets bad over time. Um, bad decisions are made for good reasons. Bad decisions are made for bad reasons. The code sucks, so there has to be something else. [00:05:13] Jeff: And I’m, I’m slowly learning just from people who have worked at companies like Google, who’ve been architects for Google, architects for Microsoft, Shopify, like some of these bigger companies that have seen a lot of success and are doing things differently. Just like picking their brain and really learning a lot, but also having them see The value in good production, like I have to do a weekly demo to the rest of the company of what we’ve been working on every single week. [00:05:47] Jeff: And often it’s like, Hey, here’s some infrastructure stuff that Jay’s never had to touch before. And then also here’s Jay giving the demo of how to use this. And the resounding response [00:06:00] is like, Jay, your demos are the thing that everyone looks forward to now on the call because all the other ones are like watching bread turn into toast out in the sun. [00:06:14] Jeff: It’s, it’s just, it’s grueling. So it’s, it’s great to, to be loved and to be like wanted by a team of people who are very, very experienced and often have to re explain things to me because I have no clue what they’re talking about, but then also. Because of this shakeup at work, there’s kind of been this rift in that our current team is under new management. [00:06:40] Jeff: That new management wants me to stick around because kind of the hope is if this team is successful, then it becomes a new department, and then the people who are there just kind of stay there. So old company wants me, or old team wants me around, new team wants me around. A third team that is like Hey, you probably should actually be over here anyway, because that’s what makes [00:07:00] like logical sense. [00:07:01] Jeff: We also want you around. And everyone is throwing out like, do you want money? Do you want management? Do you like what do you want? So it’s, you know, safe to say like, aside from feeling kind of overworked and a little stressed out, which is just I feel like a normal thing. I I’m feeling very much wanted and having, having a little bit of survivorship bias, having, you know, these conversations where people are like, you know, what can we do to keep you happy with, you know, the team that you’re on and with the projects that you’re on. [00:07:40] Jeff: And that’s been really, really blinding of the fact that I just lost. Another half of my existing team and some of the people I worked closest with due to these, this last layoff round. So it’s like, Hey, rose colored glasses, going to put those on [00:08:00] and ignore like the atomic bomb that just went off in our company that mostly impacted my areas. [00:08:08] Jeff: But also, Hey, this sunset’s looking really nice right now. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of where I’m at. [00:08:16] Brett: So when I first started at Oracle, they wanted me and, and they gave me a good salary and they gave me a bonus my first year and a raise. And then we went through multiple reorgs and I feel completely unwanted now. Um, I got no raise this year. I got no bonus. I got nothing. Um, and that feels like punishment. [00:08:40] Brett: Uh, you know, when, you know, inflation is going up and your, your salary isn’t going up, um, that’s basically a pay cut. I’m really jealous that you feel that you literally are that wanted. Um, I wish, I wish. [00:08:56] Jeff: I think the downside to that though is none of these like only one of them [00:09:00] was like, maybe it comes with a pay increase. And that’s just because to level out, again, you’ve got like, like staff level architects from Google coming in making that kind of money, we kind of have to balance things. But everyone else like, Everyone else is like, hey, we just laid off a bunch of people because we’ve got to save money. [00:09:20] Jeff: So I’m, I’m also kind of in the camp of like, I feel like as much as they want to promise me more money come time for like, hey, let’s do a review and let’s talk about compensation. That’s going to get left out somehow. [00:09:32] Brett: Yeah, yeah, and that sucks, um, all this saving money when your stock is doing fine shit. Yeah. [00:09:40] Jay: oh yeah, there’s this spectrum that’s starting to sort of emerge in my mind and I want you to help me fill it out. So there’s what you’re talking about, which is you survived the layoff. You have a blog post about this too, which I’ll put in the, um, in the show notes, or I put in there. Uh, you survived the layoff and you feel wanted, right? [00:09:58] Jay: On the other end is you’ve been [00:10:00] laid off and you feel totally unwanted. Another one is you’re Brett and you’re there, you’ve survived layoffs, but you also feel unwanted. What is the one between Brett and you, Jay? Like, is it just, I feel wanted and. But I may die any day? [00:10:15] Jeff: My team is designated for future layoffs. That’s, that’s like the space in between where things are great. Everybody’s gelling and there hasn’t been a layoff in six months. So, You’re, you’re like, hey, this is good while everybody braces for impact. I talked about this in that blog post of that like being a military veteran and being someone who’s been diagnosed with PTSD like I can, I can honestly say that dealing with layoffs at Elastic, followed by layoffs at Microsoft, followed by two rounds of layoffs at Ivan, like, and, and they don’t, they don’t want to call them layoffs, they want to call them restructuring, but like restructuring comes with like, if [00:11:00] more than three people got laid off at the same time from different departments and I feel like it could be justified as a layoff, um, you know, for the same reason, When those things happen, there’s no good way to do it. [00:11:14] Jeff: And that’s the problem is that like, in Microsoft’s case, hey, we’re gonna lay off 10, 000 people while also announcing that we’ve had record sales, you know, record revenue generated. [00:11:27] Brett: The, the in between is that, um, that 1950s, 60s, uh, mentality that no longer exists where you get a good job, you do your job, you, you do everything that’s asked of you, and every year, um. You get an incremental raise and a Christmas bonus and, um, and you’re not worried about layoffs because you’re doing your job. [00:11:53] Brett: You’re good at your job. And now, like, the reason they gave me for not getting a bonus was I only [00:12:00] scored, um, uh, Uh, there’s like five, it’s like a one to five rating in your review, and a three means adequately performs all duties. And when I started, they told me just always get a three and you’ll get what you need. [00:12:16] Brett: And like, if you put a five down for anything, then like management gets like uneasy that you’re looking for a promotion or whatever. And the reason they gave me for not [00:12:26] Jay: I don’t know about this guy. [00:12:28] Brett: The reason they gave me for not getting a bonus was I only had a three on my review and I like, it’s a self review too. [00:12:36] Brett: So I just gave myself threes and everything. Cause [00:12:38] Jay: And it’s a self review. That is capitalism, right? Like [00:12:42] Jeff: you’ve denied yourself a raise. [00:12:44] Jay: Yeah, [00:12:45] Brett: a, it’s a self review that your manager can argue with if he feels that you overranked yourself and rarely will they, uh, up your score for you. [00:12:54] Jeff: It’s weird in that like Microsoft was the same way except for basically we were told hey don’t [00:13:00] screw over like it was a peer review, so the ruling was you never screw over one of your [00:13:06] Brett: Sure. Why would [00:13:07] Jeff: put in the good stuff, you never put in any bad stuff, so there’s no growth whatsoever, there’s no like personal development, but then also at the same time, They’re like, hey, we know that you’re lying. [00:13:20] Jeff: So therefore we’re going to just throw out this. And it’s like, it’s not even lying. It’s just like, if, if I’m having to basically re interview for my job every six months. give you all the good stuff and turn all the bad stuff into more good stuff, then like I truly am not developing as a human being and our company has a bunch of robots and then that’s when I get bored and I bounce. [00:13:44] Brett: Well, it’s, it’s bullshit. Like you should, your manager should do your rating and they should be on your side. And, um, this whole, this whole system, you’re right, it does not inspire personal growth. Um, [00:14:00] I will say like not getting any compensation, uh, it feels like they thought that would inspire me to work harder, but it, it absolutely does not. [00:14:12] Jeff: Yeah, it will make me work harder on everything other than my job. [00:14:18] Brett: Yeah, exactly. It makes me work harder at looking for a new job. [00:14:22] Jay: Or it makes you dig into a passion project or something, right? Like, it’s just like, okay, fine. I’m going to go where I, I already know how to feel, uh, satisfied and valuable, but you’re just not the framework in which I could do that. [00:14:34] Brett: All right. So Jay, does that sum up your mental health corner? [00:14:38] Jeff: Yeah, no, that’s it for me. [00:14:40] Brett: All right. [00:14:40] Mental Health Corner: Brett’s Health Journey [00:14:40] Brett: Mine is actually not work related. I do actually want to talk about what’s happening at my job in brief later on. But the weird thing for me right now is I feel like I have Both ADHD and bipolar, like under control. Like I’ve got, I’ve got [00:15:00] focus. [00:15:00] Brett: I’ve got like, uh, when I’m sleeping anyway, like I’ve got, uh, just like steady mood, um, motivation and like, it’s weird. It’s weird to be like both bipolar stable and ADHD attentive at the same time. Um, I have had. Sleep issues ongoing, like this has been going on for months and I’ve talked about it, um, and I tried, I started having lightheadedness, uh, like persistent, not just when I stood up, just like constant lightheadedness that was on the verge of like euphoria, um, like it felt really good, but also made it unsafe to drive, so I figured I should do something about it. [00:15:48] Brett: Um, so we tried the, the only reason they could come up with was it must be caused by the gabapentin. So I tried to get off the gabapentin, which gabapentin [00:16:00] also acts as an anti anxiety medication. And I went cold turkey off it and had the worst day of anxiety I have ever had. I was absolutely certain I was going to lose my job. [00:16:11] Brett: I was absolutely certain that everybody hated me. It was a real rough day. Um, so, so I kind of went back on the gabapentin and tapered myself off and tried this drug called DayVigo, which is supposed to help with sleep, but as has been my experience with every other sleep medication, I got no sleep. Um, it did nothing. [00:16:36] Brett: So I’m currently back on the gabapentin. I am not anxious, and today I am not lightheaded, and I am not convinced that the gabapentin is a problem, which means I have to go in for like pulmonary and brain scans, um, to try to explain the lightheadedness if it comes back. Because, uh, yeah. So I’m, I’m, I’m filling out [00:17:00] forms to try functional medicine. [00:17:01] Brett: Are you guys familiar with those? [00:17:04] Jay: I don’t know. Explain. [00:17:05] Brett: It’s like a cross between western medicine and a more holistic, um, kind of, uh, what’s the word? When they give you a bunch of supplements and recommend electromagnetic therapy. [00:17:22] Jeff: I was meds, crush them up, dip like acupuncture needles in them and then like, Do that or [00:17:31] Brett: so, yeah, I, I don’t know yet, um, I wasn’t impressed with the, like, consultation phone call I had, but I’ve got, like, GI issues, I’ve got bipolar and ADHD, and I’ve got, um, sleep issues, and I have specialists for each one of these, but none of the specialists agree with the other specialists, and in my mind, all this shit has to be connected. [00:17:55] Brett: In some way, there has to be some underlying problem and functional medicine seems to [00:18:00] be the only option I have without going to like fucking acupuncture and stuff. Um, with no, no offense to acupuncturists. I just don’t think it’s going to solve like [00:18:11] Jeff: I love acupuncture. I’m not using it for those [00:18:15] Brett: yeah, exactly, exactly, but like, um, what, wellness, the wellness industry, I guess, is like, I don’t have a lot of faith in, um, I think it’s a, uh, mostly a rip off, but functional medicine seems like my only hope for finding, um, connections? [00:18:35] Brett: And, like, you start with, like, urine samples, saliva sample, fecal sample, and it takes, like, five weeks to analyze all this, and then they come back with, like, a recommendation, I guess, so, I’m gonna give it a shot, we’ll see. Um, last thing in my mental health corner is Uh, health insurance. I, uh, one of my therapists, multiple [00:19:00] therapists, um, does not submit to insurance, so I have to make claims myself using her super bills. [00:19:08] Brett: And, um, I, I submitted like 20 bills for the year and I got back 20 separate 25 checks for, to cover, they’re supposed to cover 90 percent of like a 280 bill, which they reduced to 20, 250. And then instead of giving me 90 percent of that, they paid me 10 percent of that, which means now I have to like resubmit all these claims. [00:19:38] Brett: And when you’re resubmitting, they require faxes. So I have to fax in Receipts, which obviously I do online because there’s no fax machines in the world anymore. [00:19:50] Jay: my god, no, there’s not. [00:19:52] Brett: and so, like, [00:19:53] Jay: There’s only super spammy fax services online. [00:19:57] Brett: And then for, yeah, [00:20:00] I found one that’s free, or like for 2. 90 I could send a 20 page fax. Um, [00:20:06] Jay: was it? [00:20:07] Brett: no, I can’t remember, it’s called like FreeFax. com or something. Um, but they also, my last 10 I submitted, they sent back 10 separate envelopes, each one containing a single piece of paper that said, Hey, for how to network claims, contact our partner. [00:20:25] Brett: Uh, this, and they’ll help you like get your bill reduced or whatever. And I’m like, that’s, you have fully reimbursed me for this provider in the past and something is wrong now. So I spend an hour on the phone with customer service and it [00:20:43] Jay: The upside [00:20:44] Brett: and more faxes. [00:20:46] Jay: the upside is that somewhere there’s an envelope licker who has dodged all the layoffs. [00:20:53] Brett: right. That’s all, that’s all I got. [00:20:55] Jeff’s Workshop and Mental Health [00:20:55] Brett: Jeff, how are you doing? [00:20:57] Jay: doing pretty good. Um, yeah, I’m [00:21:00] doing good. Uh, I know I’ve, I think I’ve talked about my lathe and my mental health check in, or maybe just my workshop. Um, but I, a new sort of like, Cause I mean, the background is that a really severe manic episode, unlike anything I’d ever had or have had since in October of 21 led me to fill my garage and my driveway with things from, uh, from auctions of closing steel factories. [00:21:23] Jay: It’s quite a thing. Um, and it took me probably, I mean, it took me until about four months ago to get out from under it, which I obviously wasn’t doing that. Constantly, but when I could, when I could stomach going into my garage and kind of facing sort of the shame and frustration of this self of mine that, that existed for one month, that is of course still me, but like was a little screwed up by brain chemistry and the wrong medication. [00:21:47] Jay: Um, it took me a long time to get out from under it. Finally, I have a workshop that is just like, it’s exactly what it should be. It’s a lovely place. Everything’s organized. Any tool I want is within reach. All my drawers are labeled. And, um, and I have this lathe. [00:22:00] I, I have this, it is amazing. I have this lathe, this hundred year old lathe I’ve been unmasked on about it a lot. [00:22:05] Jay: And, um, and I have a machining teacher, a mentor who I learned how to use metal lathes and, and bridgeport mills to machine metal. Five, six, seven years ago. Um, he’s a lovely person. He’s unlike anybody I would have ever imagined a meeting that would teach and mentor and machining. And I finally felt confident having him over, um, because my shop was just a nice place to be. [00:22:28] Jay: And I, and I wanted his guidance and I wanted him to help me problem solve and all of this stuff. And so it was the first time I had invited somebody into my workshop. Cause I’ve normally just kind of like. People would be over and they’d be like, let’s go look at your workshop. And I have to be like, no, not now for years. [00:22:41] Jay: And it was just horrible. Um, cause I knew that it was just like, it was like, why is he ashamed of his workshop? And, uh, so I had my, my, uh, teacher over. I served Nepalese, uh, food at the work table, um, on a big old piece of cardboard. where he drew how he had recently [00:23:00] created, uh, built an elevator, like a freight elevator using the mag drill I gave him that I got at an auction. [00:23:07] Jay: A mag drill is like when you see people breaking into safes in the movies with a giant magnet. That’s what a mag drill is. Uh, he drew a whole, like he drew a whole picture of another thing. And then we just like, we spent like three hours Um, investigating how a thing was put together a hundred years ago so that we could take it apart. [00:23:24] Jay: And, and the, there is something in that, that is such a calming, um, experience for me to be staring slowly at a thing and going, how do you want to come apart? Like, I see, I see maybe there’s some threads under there. I see there’s like a Woodruff key. I’m just going to use jargon. And, and, and just, and doing that with someone else, um, and then ultimately succeeding in, and then really appreciating what you find underneath, or, or when you realize how it is that they, they devised this, this, you know, this thing and having just [00:24:00] like really like unmitigated joy, like goofy childish joy. [00:24:03] Jay: Um, he’s a great match for that. And, and so it was awesome. And he’s also happens to be right now building a seven foot beer can that, uh, for a brewery that actually tips and pours beer and then tips back. So he also is just like a lot of fun. Um, so anyway, [00:24:19] Brett: an Axeman trip for sure. [00:24:21] Jay: exactly. Um, so that was like, that was a huge milestone for me and so directly related to mental health. [00:24:27] Jay: Um, and, and so it’s just amazing. [00:24:31] Brett: am totally like that with code, especially with writing regular expressions. Like I just find the world around me calms down, especially when I’m like looking through someone else’s really good code to figure out how they did it. Um, and, and you, there’s just all these, like, delights along the way and you learn, like, all new, all new functions and, and API calls and, yeah, it’s, it’s really nice. [00:24:56] Brett: I had a metals teacher in high school [00:25:00] who was, he told me, um, I have to give you an A. I think you’re dumber than a box of rocks. Quote. Dumber than a box of rocks, but I have to give you an A because you, you did everything. Um, I kind of was, I, I, I, I screwed off a lot in his class. Um, [00:25:19] Jay: cuz it’s shop. [00:25:20] Brett: Yeah, it’s shop. [00:25:21] Brett: And like, we were, we were like chasing each other around with like metal files and pouring molten lead down [00:25:27] Jay: it’s shop. [00:25:29] Brett: I got the back of my tennis shoe burned off by like molten metal. [00:25:34] Jay: It’s really a science class about evolution. [00:25:37] Jeff: So wait, wait, wait a minute. Hold on. So your, your shop teacher said that you, you, you gave yourself a three and was still able to promote you into the next grade. [00:25:48] Brett: And then in, in college, I took a metals class and again, it, in the review at the end, he told me I was an asshole, but he had to give [00:26:00] me an A and I’m like, [00:26:01] Jeff: this time, I guess. [00:26:03] Brett: yeah, [00:26:03] Jay: only ever got told I [00:26:04] Brett: this time I was a smartass. I made some cool, I made, I made a, so they brought in a nude model and had her pose and we had to draw one part of her body and then sculpt it in metal. [00:26:19] Brett: And I chose [00:26:20] Jay: the knuckle. [00:26:21] Brett: I chose her hand, which she was leaning against a table, and no one can see this because this is an audio podcast, but she had like her wrist [00:26:30] Jay: bit like Brett has rigor mortis. [00:26:32] Brett: yeah, she had her wrist bent, and it was resting on the table, so I sculpted from the elbow down, and I flipped it upside down to make a little table out of her hand, and did the whole thing in like quarter inch steel, Um, and welding that again was a very calming process. [00:26:51] Brett: It took hours and I just zoned in. I was on a lot of heroin, but I just, I zoned in and it was awesome. [00:26:59] Jay: So [00:27:00] here’s my question for your shop teacher. Is he listening? Is he, is he listening to the podcast? Um, I assume it was a he. Uh, what, when you have come up in the world of welders and, and machinists, somehow to act like being an asshole. It’s, it’s like, outside the norm, or even not required, or like, an obstacle, like, this is why it took me so long to get into this kind of stuff, is I didn’t wanna, you know, I didn’t wanna be in a community of assholes. [00:27:29] Brett: Well, so I feel like what happens for me is, Um, especially in high school shop class, I’m, I’m, I’m not being elitist, I’m just, I think I was smarter than most of the class, which meant [00:27:45] Jay: You’re still smarter [00:27:46] Brett: was, I was more likely to make, uh, snide remarks, um, more likely to point out contradictions while the teacher was talking. [00:27:57] Brett: Um, and like, just [00:28:00] that kind of trap that, you know, What do they call them, uh, gifted and talented kids fall into? You have so much potential. If only you would apply yourself. Yeah. [00:28:09] Jay: You really lack empathy, yep. [00:28:12] Brett: Um, yeah, yeah. But thanks, Jeff. [00:28:15] Sponsor Break: 1Password [00:28:15] Brett: Um, let’s take a quick sponsor break. We have one of our favorite sponsors this week, 1Password, once again, talking about part of their product that none of us actually use. [00:28:29] Brett: So when they tell us to make this [00:28:30] Jay: Wait, what a rousing start to the ad read. Can that just be our policy from now on when we’re reading an ad for something? Now we’re going to read you something today we’re really grateful to hear. We have never touched this. [00:28:41] Brett: it’s, yeah, but like I said, like one password is just, it’s awesome. [00:28:46] Jay: I’m implementing 1Password across my organization right now. We love it for everything we know [00:28:51] Brett: Yes. Yes. So that’s our, that’s our rousing, um, promotion of the sponsor. But I’m going to talk about, [00:29:00] uh, extended access management. Uh, so imagine your company’s security like the quad of a college campus. There are nice brick paths between the buildings. Those are the company owned devices, IT approved apps, and managed employee identities. [00:29:15] Brett: And then there are the paths that people actually use, the shortcuts worn through the grass that are actual straightest line from point A to B. There are unmanaged devices, shadow IT apps, and non employee identities such as contractors. Most security tools only work on those happy brick paths, but a lot of security problems take place on the shortcuts. [00:29:38] Brett: 1Password Extended Access Management is the first security solution that brings all of these unmanaged devices, apps, and identities under your control. It ensures that every user credential is strong and protected, every device is known and healthy, and every app is visible. 1Password Extended Access Management solves the problems traditional [00:30:00] IAM and MDM can’t. [00:30:01] Brett: It’s security for the way we work today, and it’s now generally available to companies with Okta and Microsoft Entrout and in beta for Google Workspace customers. Check it out at 1password. com slash overtired. That’s 1password with the number one dot com slash overtired. Thanks 1password. We’ll continue to talk about, you know, using like end user stuff because we all love it for that. [00:30:32] Jeff: I mean, I’ve been a mobile device manager before and I’ve had to do IAM things and yeah, this was, this was like, job right out of the military. Like, [00:30:42] Brett: then you can actually speak to this. I should have let you do the ad [00:30:46] Jeff: I’ve never used the 1Password bit, but I’ve definitely used some of the other tools that they talk about. And yes, I will say that there was always the like, Hey, why is this app banned? And it’s like, because it’s not on [00:31:00] the one, like, the one of, 20 apps that we allow you to use. And then we see them pull out another phone and go, but here I have this work contract here on my personal phone and I need to get it off of my personal phone and this is the only app that I have. [00:31:14] Jeff: And it’s like, congratulations, you’ve snitched on yourself. Good job. Um, give me that. Um, now we need to wipe both phones. But [00:31:24] Brett: so I, I am the, I am the person on the, uh, the, uh, the path that, that is not the brick road. Um, like, I got so fed up with using my work. Authorized laptop because of the limited number of apps I could use and the way that they forced me to work. So I set up a whole little like VPN tunnel on a mini in my basement to make my My Mac studio appear like it was a work authorized app, but without any of the control. [00:31:59] Jay: give myself a [00:32:00] three. [00:32:02] Jeff: Brett spends a whole lot of time every day in this one app. That’s [00:32:09] Brett: Yeah. Um, but it, you know, we do what we have to. [00:32:13] Work and Developer Relations at Oracle [00:32:13] Brett: Um, so I, real quick, I want to say that. Um, so my job is, I, I work in developer relations, but for the last three years, I have basically written content for developers, how to articles, and, um, demos for different technologies, and right now they have me producing two minute videos for two minute videos. [00:32:38] Brett: So, to promote AI solutions at Oracle, and like Jay was talking about earlier, I’m doing demos on technologies I’ve never used, so I have to work with, you know, the creators of the project to figure out what the hell they’re talking about, and then try to like compress all the impressive bits of it into two minutes. [00:32:57] Brett: And that’s okay, I enjoy the [00:33:00] production, I like that part of my job, [00:33:01] Jeff: part. [00:33:02] Brett: but it doesn’t feel like it. Uh, Relationships, um, Developer Relations, so I came up with this scheme. If you will, to build a, an aggregator that finds us everybody on the web, like indie bloggers that have good search engine ranking that are writing about us or about similar technologies on our competitors and doing things like writing how tos and writing overviews and Um, and, and aggregating all of them and then putting together a team that actually develops, like, reaches out and develops relationships with these developers to, um, hopefully get them to write about our technologies. [00:33:50] Brett: Um, maybe do side by side how tos, like, here’s how you do it on S3, here’s how you do it on Oracle Object Storage. And like, actually [00:34:00] get that content, because right now, all the content we write goes into the Oracle ecosystem. So if you’re not following Oracle already, if you’re just Googling, you’re not really finding these specific solutions. [00:34:13] Brett: So, This, I, I made a mind map for this proposal and I sent it, they asked for a doc, a Word file or a PowerPoint, and I said, no, I’m going to send you a mind map. And every time I do that, people are like, oh my God, this is so cool. I love seeing it like this. I get, you know, at least three [00:34:33] Jay: love mind maps! [00:34:35] Brett: Even if they don’t like making them, they like reading them. [00:34:38] Brett: Like it’s a great way to present information. [00:34:41] Jeff: Oracle has their own AI. I mean, this is an amazing tool right, at [00:34:46] Brett: they have, they have the tools you need to build an LLM, um, they don’t have like their own language model or anything, um, but they do a lot of, [00:34:58] Jeff: I would take a template [00:35:00] of what they want and take your mind map and just feed it in and go, here. like [00:35:07] Crafting Personalized Outreach with AI [00:35:07] Brett: what I want to do is all these, for every AI solution we promote, we have to write a one pager. I want to be able to feed this one pager into a tool that generates the search to find people talking about specifically. The technology in that one pager so I can reach out and then I want ai to summarize what that person is already written so that I can approach them with at least a cursory knowledge of what they’ve already done. [00:35:35] Brett: Because that’s how you contact a blogger. [00:35:37] Effective Blogger Engagement Strategies [00:35:37] Brett: You say hey, I read this article you wrote. I really like point A and point B that you made. I wonder if you’ve heard of This thing that I produce that you might also be interested in. Like, those are the emails, when I get them, those are the ones I pay attention to. [00:35:53] Brett: Um, the ones that are not just like, Hello, Brett Terpstra, we noticed you’re interested in this broad technology. [00:36:00] Would you like to try our product? [00:36:02] Jeff: not just that but like also the Like, if Brett comes to me and says, hey, your last blog post was super dope, like, that means something. If someone I’ve never met before says, hey, good blog post, how would you like to write for us now? Like, no, that’s [00:36:22] Brett: Or, or even worse, how would you like a sponsored article from us on your blog? [00:36:27] Jeff: yeah, like, [00:36:28] Brett: cause you showed up in our [00:36:29] Jay: You’re offering that to me?! [00:36:32] Building Genuine Connections in Tech [00:36:32] Jeff: like, I tell people the, the best recruiting tactic that worked on me was Microsoft, in which my boss was. Sponsored me on GitHub for two years. Like, replied to like, tweets that I was doing, replied to some talks that I had given. Like, had a genuine interest in, wow, Jay’s content’s actually pretty cool. [00:36:56] Jeff: Like, there’s, there’s an investment in this. So that when they reached out and they [00:37:00] said, hey, My team is hiring and I think you would be a good candidate for this. It wasn’t just like, hello stranger I’ve never met before. How would you like a brand new opportunity? It was like, oh no, I actually have some rapport with this person. [00:37:15] Jeff: Like, I know that they are heavily invested in not just their team’s success, but my personal success in the fact that they’ve been paying me for two years already. Like, [00:37:28] Brett: Um, [00:37:28] Jeff: and a wrong way to do this. [00:37:30] Innovative Projects and Their Impact [00:37:30] Brett: my most successful project at Oracle, the one that has been the most beneficial to the company is one I did because someone else at Oracle had been following me for years and they knew what I could do, um, and they asked me to come. work for their team and write tools that would convert their entire Confluence wiki into a GitHub. [00:37:53] Brett: Well, in this case, a Oracle has some GitHub clone, uh, but basically into Markdown [00:38:00] files that they could turn into a repository of information. And I built this and their writing team was spending two hours per page to convert these and then clean them up. And I made it into you could do an entire hundred pages in 30 seconds. [00:38:22] Brett: And like I took care of all the requests and saved them, according to their estimate, thousands of hours. However, I did not include this in my self review because technically I was doing it in my off hours and it wasn’t authorized by my manager. So I figured maybe I shouldn’t mention that I had put, you know, hours into this project and saved the company thousands of man hours, man and woman hours. [00:38:49] Brett: and non binary. Um, but, uh, I, I got a letter of commendation from them. I, I requested like, if I saved you this much time, [00:39:00] write me a glowing letter of commendation. And I sent that to my manager. This is like two days after I found out I wasn’t getting a bonus. And I’m like, fuck you here. This is, this is what I’ve done for the company. [00:39:12] Jeff: And also, I will go work for that team [00:39:15] Brett: I asked them, can I just switch to your team? They’re like, we have zero headcount. We have to lay someone off this month anyway. [00:39:21] Jeff: oh no, the, the interesting part of that though is we just had this conversation yesterday as I had to give this demo to our team, and they were like, wait a minute, y’all have done all this work, where’s the JIRA tickets for this? Where’s the GitHub repo? And we’re like, they’re all private. And the team was like, what, how dare we not be able to see what this super secret squirrel team is doing. [00:39:47] Jeff: All the time, and put in our comments, [00:39:50] Challenges of Corporate Metrics [00:39:50] Brett: I hate JIRA so much that I find ways around actually using JIRA. So when managers go to look at [00:40:00] JIRA ticket count as a metric of success, I look horrible. I have like two tickets completed for the whole year. [00:40:07] Jeff: well, and the thing that we came, we came to finally was like, we’re doing all this work, it’s all listed as private, but here’s the thing. These five super important things that make our company the company that it is, and how it operates, and how it ultimately makes money, were all done as SkunkWorks projects. [00:40:28] Jeff: And people’s off time just because they were tired of the way that it was working and they made it better. And then it got adopted into, Hey, this is really great. We should use this for everything now. And to me, it’s like, wait a minute. What we’ve learned is that yes, we can be open and transparent about things. [00:40:47] Jeff: Doesn’t mean that everything needs to be open source made available to the public on day one. Sometimes, especially when you’re working in a company, it’s better to be like, let me get my idea out there and [00:41:00] done. And then when it’s at a place where I can present it to the company, Then I’ll present it, then we’ll take all the criticisms, then we’ll take all the feedback and apply it as needed, but if you’re coming out the gate on day one with just like, Well, you chose Fish as your terminal editor, I don’t know why you did that, you should be using T Shell, because Reasons. [00:41:21] Jeff: And you’re just like, nevermind, now I want to quit and go find a new job. [00:41:26] Brett: Yeah, [00:41:28] Jeff: But also, you shouldn’t have given yourself a three on that, Brett. That’s, that’s totally five work. [00:41:33] Brett: Well, dude, the, the, the ratings are like, how is your leadership? I’m not a manager, I don’t, [00:41:40] Jeff: leader. [00:41:41] Brett: I, I don’t want to be a leader. I want to, I want to do shit behind the scenes and make shit better for everybody. Um, and, [00:41:48] Jeff: being a leader. [00:41:49] Jay: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:41:52] Jeff: That’s the definition of a leader, Brett. [00:41:54] Brett: Like, and I edited maybe 20, 20 long articles and I did a great [00:42:00] job of editing, but my name doesn’t go on those articles. Like I’m invisible at this company. [00:42:06] Jeff: I have another blog post that I am actually working on in that whole series that is exactly what you’re saying. Like we, talking with a bunch of architects has taught me one thing. Commit count, line, like code line count, all of those things are very, very horrible metrics. And what are better metrics are, how many things did you help push across the finish line? [00:42:30] Jeff: Not, not like, oh, I’m the one that wrote the code, but like, I was the person that said, Hey, you should run this through a linter, or, hey, you have a typo there, or this is off messaging, or whatever, or even, Oh, you’re stuck on this here. Here’s an example of some code that I wrote in my spare time that explains how to solve that problem, and like, all of those things are not easily quantifiable. [00:42:58] Jeff: And that’s the [00:43:00] problem with companies. [00:43:01] The Value of Unquantifiable Work in DevRel [00:43:01] Jeff: And again, we’re both in DevRel. DevRel has this horrible, like, challenge in that everything that we do that brings value is not quantifiable. Everything that we do that [00:43:13] Brett: all DevRel is unquantifiable. [00:43:16] Jeff: Like every, and like both, you know, people who give talks at DevRelCon will argue this, but everything, all the challenges of like, we need to figure out how to turn blog posts into quantifiable metrics and conference talks into quantifiable metrics. [00:43:31] Jeff: I was asked to keynote at a conference next year that hasn’t been announced yet, so I won’t, I won’t do that, but I’ll be keynoting at some conference next year. And as I had to justify travel, eventually I was like, okay, look, I’m an influencer in this community. I can go there and, like, regardless, I’m going to go there because they asked me to keynote. [00:43:53] Jeff: I’ve blown them off a couple of years in a row because of other work things getting in the way. I’m going this year. The [00:44:00] options are I can take vacation, I can go on my own because they’re going to pay me to go, and I can be super excited to talk about my company and all the cool things that we’re doing, or, [00:44:12] Brett: Right. [00:44:13] Jeff: or, you can pay for me to go. [00:44:16] Jeff: And then I’ll be really, really excited and I’ll want to give demos and I’ll try to go to meetups and stuff and I’ll like extend my time there and have a really good time that benefits the company or you’ll continue to piss me off and I’ll just go and then I’ll let people know that I’m looking for work in which then I will have five offers. [00:44:34] Jeff: So it’s your choice. Like [00:44:36] Brett: but when you’re making this argument, you can’t say it’s going to result in this many new customers because that’s not trackable. Like you, new customers don’t get. There’s no, there’s no, uh, signup thing that says, how did you hear about us? And they put down Jay Miller and you [00:44:56] Jeff: that one time, that one place. [00:44:58] Brett: All right. [00:44:59] Brett: We should get, we should [00:45:00] get to our, uh, gratitude. Before we run out of time here, Jeff, you’ve been kind of rail railroaded out of this conversation. You’ve been quiet. Would you like to go first? [00:45:09] Jay: Oh, I don’t feel railroaded. I’m a listener. Yeah, sure. [00:45:13] Exploring Useful Apps and Tools [00:45:13] Jay: My app is, so you know, there are all these apps that we all have that have been there for so long and they are just working and then maybe you forget that your computer behaves this way because a certain person made a certain app hazel, right? [00:45:28] Jeff: a new update. [00:45:28] Jay: So, oh [00:45:30] Brett: quick, quick note [00:45:31] Jay: yeah, please. [00:45:32] Brett: I wish Hazel, when it came up with the buy a new version dialogue, it should tell you, you currently have this many Hazel rules running on this many [00:45:43] Jay: Yeah, yeah, [00:45:44] Brett: Because I forget how much Hazel is doing for me in the back, sorry Jeff, go ahead. [00:45:49] Jay: No, it’s a great, it’s a great, it’s the ultimate example, right? Like, um, so the app is front and center, John Siracusa’s app, um, from 2020 and front and center [00:46:00] just restores a classic Mac OS feature. I think Siracusa used, uh, the classic OS from like age nine to 26 before OS 10 kicked in. And what it does is so simple. [00:46:12] Jay: When I click on a window of an application, All of the windows that are on my desktop open, uh, appear. I use this mostly for Finder. You can actually just an exclude list. So if you don’t want it to happen to other apps, that’s fine. If you shift click on an app, it won’t bring them all forward, but it is something that for me, I found I wanted all the time. [00:46:33] Jay: I especially want it with Finder windows because I spray those things like indiscriminately onto my four monitors or whatever. Um, and so it’s just a lovely, elegant app. It’s constantly updated. You wouldn’t think. There’s a lot of attention that needs to be paid, but like, if you look at, I mean, it’s not surprising given it’s Siracusa, but like, if you look at the change log, there’s just these little incremental meaningful changes that happen over time, as recently as two weeks ago, even though it’s a 2020 [00:47:00] app, app that does a very simple thing. [00:47:02] Jay: So highly recommend. [00:47:03] Brett: Can you, can you reverse it so that it only brings forward all windows if you hold down [00:47:09] Jay: Yep, you can have a classic mode or a modern mode. If you have it on modern mode, then shift click gives the classic functionality. If you have it on classic mode, shift click gets, gets the modern. [00:47:19] Brett: I could see that being useful. In general, I’ve gotten really used to the current macOS behavior, and I often only want the window I click on to come forward. But, in the cases where I, the Finder is a good example, like you said, um, to bring forward all windows, [00:47:35] Jeff: I’ve been playing with the tiling manager and the reason why it is not my Grapptitude is because my brain hasn’t wrapped around it yet. [00:47:44] Brett: right? [00:47:44] Jeff: I’m still like, why, why is this one window so [00:47:47] Jay: Wait, like a, a specific timing manager or? [00:47:50] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, called Aerospace. Um, more, I, I’ve been on this quest to make the terminal my friend again. Um, [00:48:00] and it’s, it’s weird because this isn’t a terminal focused application, but it’s one that a lot of. [00:48:07] Jeff: Terminal First content creators have all kind of endorsed. So I was like, ah, we’ll, we’ll try it out. And, and it is definitely a brain thing. But like, Brett, when you said, can it reverse it? I thought you were like, can I reverse front and center? So like, back and off to the corner. Like, like, like, if I click shift, if I shift click it, that it like moves into the smallest window possible. [00:48:33] Jeff: Like, [00:48:36] Jay: Awesome. [00:48:37] Brett: well, speaking of terminal, Jay, what you got? I [00:48:39] Jay: their [00:48:40] Jeff: mine is because I’ve been trying to go back to the terminal lifestyle for no, no particular reason other than I want to challenge my brain to do something different. And I’ve always been a big fan of terminal things, but I am using a Um, multiplexer called Zellige, or Zellige, I’m not sure [00:49:00] how the J is pronounced at the end of that, um, [00:49:04] Brett: Y. I think it’s Zelia. Okay. [00:49:07] Jeff: Zillia, there we go, um, it’s ultimately an alternative to something like a TMUX, um, It is pretty much feature has like feature parity with tmux. [00:49:19] Jeff: The big difference that I see with it is that a lot of, a lot of tmux commands either have to be aliased out of like the leader or you didn’t have to like play configuration hell with them all. This, this, uh, starts at that spot. It, like, while it supports the TMUX, like, leader and then going into another thing, you can also just do the natural thing. [00:49:47] Jeff: So, panes, tabs, windows, sessions, all those are relatively quickly accessed with just control and then a logical letter. Other than session, which is O, and I don’t know why [00:50:00] session is O, but whatever. Well, [00:50:02] Brett: I term, I term Command Shift O is Switch Session. Maybe they were just [00:50:06] Jeff: Okay, so maybe it’s [00:50:07] Brett: But I don’t know. I also don’t know why it’s like that in I terms. So, [00:50:11] Jeff: The thing that I like most about Zelig that kind of made stuff start to click for me was this idea of a floating window for excess things. So where I’ll In TMUX, if you try to go to like list your sessions, it pretty much takes over the entire screen, and then you have to go do stuff and find things and move things around, and then like everything goes away. [00:50:36] Jeff: Um, with Zealage, it’s like this little tiny window in the center of your terminal window. that just like pops up really quick. Oh, do what I got to do, click it, it goes away, and everybody’s happy. And I can still see the context in which where I am. The nice thing about that is you can also have floating panes. [00:50:53] Jeff: So, hey, I have a static site generator that’s built in Python called Render Engine. I use it [00:51:00] to maintain my own personal website. And it has, uh, It’s a file watcher and like auto reload functionality. So now I just always have a local version of my website always running and it’s just running in this little hidden floating window. [00:51:16] Jeff: So I can just like write a blog post, save the blog post, go to a terminal or go to an internet browser and like preview that article and if I make any changes to it, you know, give it like two seconds and then I can see those changes live as they’re happening. Which is usually it’s like. As I’m writing, I have Marked open, so I’m looking at it, but then I haven’t gotten to the point where I have all of my CSS, you know, custom piped into Marked yet, so then it’s like, what does this look like? [00:51:48] Jeff: Okay, cool, go over here and do it. But it also works when I’m trying to, like, edit the CSS layout, or change terminal stuff, and I don’t have to think about if it’s running or not, because it’s just always running, and if something, [00:52:00] Get squirrely with it. I’m just like, boom. Uh, was it control PW then to pop up that little window, write, you know, terminal stuff, relo, relaunch the server and then hit control PW again, and then it just pop pops off back into the background and like, I’m happy. [00:52:19] Jeff: Um, and this, this has been great ’cause for the first time now I actually have like SSH windows and stuff that I have running. that I’m connected to that are just like, oh, off in the background. Oh, I need to do that thing really quick. Pop it up and go. But my brain couldn’t get Tmux. Zillage seems to be working for me. [00:52:34] Jeff: So hooray. [00:52:35] Brett: my brain has finally gotten TMUX. Um, I’m definitely going to check this out, but like I use anytime I SSH into a machine, I immediately open TMUX. Usually I have it as part of like the profile. Uh, this is an SSH session, open TMUX and I, I have run into plenty of issues. Um, [00:52:58] Jeff: suggestion I would [00:53:00] make if you’re going to try it, switch to the compact UI. or the compact interface, because the default interface is kind of chunky. So you’re losing real estate if you’re not doing the compact one. [00:53:14] Brett: cool. All right. I will, uh, check. Yeah. Jeff. [00:53:18] Jay: roadmap visualization is bananas, and I’m not sure if that’s just something that already exists as a way you do roadmap visualizations, or [00:53:27] Brett: never seen this [00:53:28] Jay: it is bananas. I put a link in the show notes. I was [00:53:32] Brett: like a, it’s like a pie chart, mind map, concept [00:53:35] Jay: It’s a little hard to take in, but it’s like, A for effort. [00:53:38] Jeff: It looks like that thing that Brett was talking about where you take your bipolar medication and then crush it up and dip it into it. [00:53:48] Brett: I don’t know what the purple versus the tan means. [00:53:52] Jay: No, it’s a little bit of a mindfuck, but I also, it’s just like, okay, alright, you mean it though. [00:53:58] Jeff: Hey, if it works for them, [00:54:00] right? [00:54:00] Brett: Yeah. [00:54:01] Jay: Awesome. [00:54:02] Brett: Um, all right. [00:54:03] The Future of Link Management [00:54:03] Brett: Mine is, uh, Link Warden. Um, I’ve been seeking out slowly a pinboard, uh, replacement. Uh, pinboard hasn’t seen an update in years. [00:54:16] Jay: you’re going to do it. [00:54:19] Brett: yeah, well, so I was thinking about doing it and I pitched the idea on Mastodon and a few people replied with, wait, somebody’s already done this. [00:54:27] Jay: I said yes. Fuck whoever’s done it. It’s not good. [00:54:32] Brett: Like all [00:54:33] Jeff: Brett more work, but I would also sign up for whatever Brett’s version of this is. [00:54:37] Brett: I, all I really want is like the exact functionality of Pinboard, but with a way better interface on the web, but like a replicated API, which is already a replication of the delicious API. Um, and Yeah, like to just bring that forward, add maybe a few new functions, [00:55:00] uh, but like Pinboard is a very overall, very simple database app. [00:55:06] Brett: Um, but one of the alternatives that was presented to me is called LinkWarden and it is a beautiful open source version of a link manager that also handles. Um, archiving and PDF duplication of websites. You can also easily submit a link to the Wayback Machine and it has a decent API. It’s poorly documented. [00:55:36] Brett: Um, so I have a couple of GitHub issues in right now. Um, but it was easy to export all of my pinboard links, 8, 000 of them, um, and import them into LinkWarden. I’m currently having a little bit of issue with. importing tags, uh, which they replied to my issue as, well, that’s odd. Um, [00:56:00] but I haven’t gotten any resolution on that yet. [00:56:04] Brett: And using it without tags is pointless to me. Um, so I’m hoping they resolve that. The people I’ve talked to that are already using it have had no problem with tags. So this is something unique to me, but it’s beautiful. It works well on iOS. You can add shortcuts to Safari, it has plugins for Chrome and Firefox, and, um, it looks great on mobile, and it, it offers like screenshots of every link, you can view, uh, you can sort your links in any way you want to, you can organize by tags, or you can create folders, which, um, Um, I, I was using link bundles on Pinboard, um, which make a little more sense to me, but I think I could replicate that functionality in LinkWarden. [00:56:53] Brett: Um, but yeah, if you’re looking for a Pinboard replacement because Pinboard hasn’t seen an update and the [00:57:00] creator of Pinboard has been going slowly mad on social media and I don’t have a lot of faith in the future of Pinboard. Um, BigFan, LittleFaith, and LookingAround. So LinkWarden is my top pick. [00:57:16] Brett: LinkDing is another one, but LinkWarden looks better. [00:57:19] Jeff: I, I’m really tempted to, so this is like the, the combination of tools enabling this. So I could see self hosting this on a Raspberry Pi [00:57:31] Brett: Ha ha. [00:57:31] Jeff: activated by like, um, I keep wanting to say Tailwind, but Tailscale. [00:57:37] Brett: Yeah, yeah. [00:57:37] Jeff: And then I, then like, then I’m happy because all of my links are saved for me and I don’t They’re all mine, I’m not sharing them with the world, I really have no desire to share what I watch or what I look at on the internet with the world outside of like what I do from like a micro blogging standpoint. [00:57:54] Brett: that’s the thing. Is I, like, my web excursions are all driven by Pinboard. I just [00:58:00] save. Uh, links to Pinboard and they turn into blog posts for me, um, so there are some that I want public. [00:58:08] Jeff: Is there not a world where this can just be stored in plain text? Because I’m, I’m, I’m really trying to figure out the like, all right, look, I understand that AI is the devil, or the the angel that is here to either save or damn us. And I’m like, I do look at a bunch of links. And I often am just like, I don’t know what I know anymore. [00:58:30] Jeff: And I don’t know where I went. So I’m just gonna look for it again to save myself the energy. And If I had something that I was like, give me everything that I need to look at regarding this. [00:58:41] Brett: you seen HistoryHound? [00:58:43] Jeff: History. It sounds familiar, [00:58:46] Brett: I think it, I think it was C Command, but, um, HistoryHound will track your web history and you can then search everywhere you’ve been by just typing any words that appeared on the page [00:59:00] and it will find people. Links you’ve already visited. It is, it’s pretty cool. I don’t personally use it. [00:59:05] Brett: I, I, uh, like a more curated approach to saving my web history. [00:59:11] Jeff: yeah, I think, I think that was that. I, I have used HistoryHound in the past and I, I think I just, I think I didn’t use it, which is the problem. Uh, like I used it, but I didn’t use it. And that’s, that’s where I like the idea of a pinboard because with pinboard, it was like, I just clicked a button. And then when I went to need it, it was like there. [00:59:37] Jeff: And I, I think that the future of that is kind of like. I have some collection of these things and now I, I just say, hey, you know, local LLM, here’s all of this content, quick search it, and then you tell me what I should be [00:59:57] Brett: That’s kind of a brilliant idea.[01:00:00] [01:00:00] Jay: on now, Brett, let’s really quick talk about how you’re going to build this app, because Cause here, the problem with, I know we don’t, [01:00:07] Jeff: two enablers, [01:00:07] Jay: know we don’t normally, we don’t normally argue in Grapptitude about apps, but here, here is the primary problem. Use the word twice in describing this app. You said beautiful. [01:00:16] Jay: It can’t be beautiful. I hate it when it’s beautiful because I feel like I’m in a browser on a webpage and what I love about Pinboard, even more than I liked Delicious, is how plain and simple it is. And it’s not like Craigslist, like it’s not that bad, right? But it’s like. The only, my only complaint about it is when I have private links, cause I like to have my links generally private. [01:00:36] Jay: They’re grayed out in a way that I find aesthetically very unpleasing, but here’s the thing. I know that you would make beautiful without making it beautiful. Uh, if that makes any sense and [01:00:47] Jeff: I would just take raw, like, give me raw JSON. Like, I don’t care. Like, I want it to [01:00:51] Jay: yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And, and, and I would, I would love the incremental changes you would come up with over the [01:01:00] years to this service, because I think they would all be thoughtful and lovely. [01:01:04] Brett: I really like, I really like the AI idea where [01:01:08] Jay: Oh, I do shit like [01:01:09] Brett: stores the text of everything you bookmark and then you can just ask like a, a small, a, a small language model. Um, you can just ask it, hey, tell me more about this thing that I bookmarked 20 tabs. Remind me, like, where I was in this research. [01:01:29] Jeff: this is where, like, the, the combination and, like, if, Brett, if, if no one’s going to give you a five, let me give you a five here. Like, you have [01:01:40] Jay: Are you giving him a five to the future? [01:01:42] Jeff: you have so many projects that can be combined in this, with like, doing, I see like, yeah, I see like doing in SearchLink, just working together with some easy bookmarking system. [01:01:56] Brett: with gather and maybe curly cute. [01:02:00] Like someone, [01:02:00] Jay: Jay. Well [01:02:01] Brett: me, someone sent me, [01:02:03] Jay: Way to speak his language. I like, I feel like Jay just definitely like manipulated you. I mean, I think Jay meant it, but I also think Jay knew it was like. [01:02:11] Jeff: percent of the code already exists. You’ve [01:02:14] Brett: someone, someone sent me a keyboard maestro macro today that combines, um, search link and gather. So with keyboard maestro, you can just type in a couple of keywords and get back plain text version of the result, which, yeah, I think that’s kind of brilliant. [01:02:32] Jay: that’s amazing. All right, well, Brett, I look forward to checking in next week on how this is going, because you have an opportunity here to save the world, and that doesn’t happen much, and the world needs saving. [01:02:42] Brett: All right, all right, [01:02:44] Jay: All right, great to talk to you, Jay. [01:02:46] Jeff: Absolutely. Um, but I guess my one shout out here is everyone be, be kind to yourself and each other. I think we’ve got like, what, a week or [01:03:00] a week and a half before half the world loses or half of America loses their mind. Um, [01:03:06] Brett: well, yeah, yeah, [01:03:07] Jeff: oh, I’m sorry, they’ve already, [01:03:08] Jay: technically 48%. [01:03:10] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:11] Jay: The undecided voters are going to be [01:03:13] Jeff: Yeah, but ultimately, like, I, I have my opinions, and I will say, we have survived the last eight years with and without whoever your favorite person running is. Let’s not kill each other because of a decision. I think we’re going to survive another four years and then maybe we’ll survive another four years after that. [01:03:39] Encouraging Open Source Development [01:03:39] Jeff: Um, but also like, hey, if you’re wanting to get into open source development, you know, reach out to me. I have opinions. I’m Last time I was here, I think we talked about Black Python devs a little bit. Brett, we have almost 900 people in that Discord now. Like, it’s, it’s so wild. We’ve, we’ve, you know, [01:04:00] been able to sponsor events all over the world. [01:04:02] Brett: so cool, [01:04:03] Jeff: fantastic. But if it’s taught me anything, it’s taught me that Again, people don’t hire people because they write good code, they hire them because they’re actually helpful. And give yourself more fives. Come on, let’s, [01:04:16] Jay: Jay, hold on. [01:04:17] Live Coding and Teaching Insights [01:04:17] Jay: I know, I know that we’re technically wrapping up, but I wonder if you could talk about your sort of live coding and live sort of teaching, because I’ve really loved skimming through those and it’s, and you’re just, you’re wonderful at [01:04:28] Jeff: have to still be doing it, um, [01:04:30] Jay: talk about, I mean, you’ve done it, right? Like I. [01:04:33] Jeff: I’ve been doing some live streams with some friends who are trying to get into programming, and I’m a firm believer that like, if you read a book and you just try to follow the book, it’s not going to teach you anything other than how to do what the book is doing. [01:04:45] Jeff: Try to build some stuff. Go out there, build stuff. You’re smarter than you think you are. Sometimes it’s helpful to have a person there that has maybe done this before and walked you through it. But I’ve been working with a few friends and, [01:05:00] um, helping them to just build stuff that they want to build. And it, a lot of it is more of like, here, I’ll show you where you can find this information and I’ll show you what it looks like in this language. [01:05:13] Jeff: But ultimately have fun with it and just. Just, just do stuff, and don’t be afraid not to do those things, and if you want to see more of that stuff, go to my YouTube channel, um, youtube. com slash K. J. Miller, K. J. A. Y. [01:05:27] Jay: you’re a great, you’re a great teacher. You’re great. I think you’re just, you’re great at that. I don’t think it’s cool that you tell people at the end, I’m giving you an A, even though you’re an asshole, cause you did the work. But otherwise I think you’re a fantastic teacher. No, truly it is. The spirit of it is wonderful and it’s almost good ASMR. [01:05:43] Jay: Uh, I really recommend it. [01:05:44] Jeff: I appreciate that. I, I am, I’m not so great to look at, but just like, you know, put me off in the background and just do, do some other stuff. You’ll be [01:05:52] Jay: awesome. Well, we’ve loved looking at you. [01:05:56] Brett: for sure, all right, you guys get some sleep. [01:05:59] Jay: Oh, [01:05:59] Jeff: some [01:06:00] sleep.

This is the second part of a two-part conversation with Merlin Mann. Join Jeff Severns Gunzel and Merlin Mann on a whimsical journey through AI antics, creative teamwork, and nostalgic rabbit holes. Get insights on ChatGPT’s quirks, AI integration in daily tasks, and practical wisdom from the Wisdom Project. Expect pop culture musings, heartfelt chats on personal growth, and humorous tales—from DIY hacks. Dive in for tech talk, life lessons, and a pinch of philosophical reflection. Sponsor Blogging is making a comeback and Pika is a great way to get a blog online fast. Visit pika.page/overtired now to give yourself a chance to experience the personal internet as it was meant to be. Enter coupon code OVERTIRED20 to get 20% off your first year of Pika Pro. Show Links Part 1 of this conversation: S-Tier Face (Merlin Mann Part 1) The Spotify playlist for episode 418 The GitHub repo for the episode, containing a chatGPT-generated episode glossary and other fun stuff The work of Merlin Mann: Merlin’s website Merlin’s Wisdom Project (Referred to repeatedly as “The Document”) Do by Friday (Podcast with Alex Cox. Hi Alex!) Roderick on the Line (Podcast with John Roderick) Reconcilable Differences (Podcast with John Siracusa) Odds + Ends: Overtired #402: Emotional Sweep with Merlin Mann is Part 0 of this conversation Developmental Evaluation Kai Scissors Grand Royal (magazine) The XY Problem Apps: MacWhisper Descript TableFlip Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Beauty of the Lonely Boys (Merlin Mann Part 2) [00:00:00] Jeff: Hey everybody. This is Jeff Severns Gunzel. This is the Over Tired podcast. This is the second part of a two part conversation with Merlin Mann. Welcome back Merlin. [00:00:11] Merlin: Thank you for having me, Jeff [00:00:12] Jeff: so the Overtired, anybody who listens has noticed there are large gaps between episodes. [00:00:17] Jeff: And in those off weeks, I was thinking I wanted to pick up on a conversation I’d had with Merlin we had started to have when you were on the on the podcast earlier this year about ChatGPT and it was to me a very interesting conversation as opposed to a very stale conversation and I think you and I are sort of kindred spirits and how we use this thing and so originally the idea was hey you guys mind if I just do like a one on one with Merlin about this so we did it. We did a first try at that. And it ended up being such a delightful, um, uh, opportunity to talk about a million things that weren’t ChatGPT that here we [00:00:53] Merlin: Jeff, we got to talk about music and I was very, I was so, well, first of all, I was pleased because I don’t know where anybody sees anything [00:01:00] anymore, but, um, and you know, I was really hoping people would listen to it, but I didn’t want to be like too like meh, go listen to me talk, ramble for a long time. [00:01:08] Merlin: But the people who did discover it and listen to it, uh, a few of them have contacted me and you to say that they enjoyed it. And I just wanted to say to our friends, uh, who especially enjoyed the music, thank you for enjoying that and for saying so. The music, the music talk, because we talked a fair amount about music. [00:01:23] Jeff: Yeah, it was lovely to hear people kind of being excited about that. It was [00:01:27] Merlin: This is my version of World War II, with all respect. Like, I don’t have anybody to talk to about what it’s like, you know, to be in the trenches. Well, you know, the trenches of 1994 [00:01:37] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. That’s all you got. 1994. [00:01:40] Merlin: didn’t watch my friends die face down in the mud so that you could say shit about polvo. [00:01:45] Jeff: There was a great, there’s a great Minneapolis band called More Ram. And this was in the 90s. And it was the singer of this band Hammerhead is a great band on Amphetamine Reptile local band here. But he had a song called She’s My Vietnam.[00:02:00] [00:02:01] Merlin: Um, Trump told Howard Stern one time that venereal disease was his Vietnam. [00:02:05] Jeff: Oh, shucks. Yeah, no. Yeah. [00:02:08] Merlin: guess the Bonespurs didn’t bother him enough for but [00:02:11] Jeff: Oh, oh, [00:02:13] Merlin: Hey everybody, you’re listening to Overtired. It’s an alternate week episode where Jeff talks to Merlin Mann, which is a thing we’re gonna do from now on. [00:02:18] Jeff: sounds great. Sounds great. Um, [00:02:20] Merlin: neck of the woods? Good afternoon. Hello. Woo! [00:02:24] A Collaborator, Not a Crutch [00:02:24] Jeff: Um, I will tell you, I have, I have kind of an idea for how to get into this conversation so that we’re, we’re not just talking about ChatGPT, but I really, really want Um, and so, you know, I think it’s really important to have that conversation because I think that the, kind of the overarching themes of like curiosity of, of like, do we love this because, because of how we are? [00:02:44] Jeff: Is it, what’s the difference between collaborating with this thing and just leaning into it or leaning on it? Jesus, I didn’t mean to go all Cheryl, you know, Sarah on you. [00:02:51] Merlin: Oh, I know what you mean. These are these are great. These are great. Are these things just out of curiosity? You’re Um, wonderfully dogged about wanting to discuss this, which is great for me, but [00:03:00] these are things that, it sounds like these are things that you’re, you’re thinking about a lot. Is that true? [00:03:03] Jeff: I think about it all the time, in part because, um, you know, I, so I’m, in my, in my work, I’m, I’m part of a member owned research and evaluation cooperative, and there are seven of us, and I do work a lot differently than, and everyone would agree, than everybody else that does this work, um, in our, in our organization. [00:03:23] Jeff: And part of it is that a lot of what I do is, is building and is, is kind of creative in nature. So it’s the kind of stuff where it’s like, when you’re planning it, it’s the hardest shit to project plan, because it’s kind of like, I was going to build a deck this summer, I didn’t. But when I was going to build it, somebody said, you know how to build a deck? [00:03:41] Jeff: And I said, I will when I’m done. [00:03:44] Merlin: Right. Can I, can I ask, can I ask an early, early question just for my, um, so you guys, your group, your team of people works together. If you can say within, you know, privacy reasons, like what, um, what is the deliverable or what is the [00:04:00] product that people come to you to get? What is the thing that you, Produced for your clients. [00:04:05] Jeff: Yeah. Okay. So we do something that’s called developmental evaluation. And the idea is like, rather than really dull, stupid, uh, done by Rand and other defense contractors, uh, program evaluation, um, we do this kind of evaluation where it’s like, you’re an organization, you’re often a small organization, but we’ve worked with some really large ones. [00:04:25] Jeff: You’re trying to do a thing. And instead of So instead of being evaluators that are off at a distance, sort of looking at what you’re doing and then feeding back some report at the very end of the, of the [00:04:33] Merlin: Like the classic Arthur, whatever it used to be, Arthur Anderson, DeLay, Touche, those kinds of, McKinsey. [00:04:38] Jeff: Yeah. So we are like, we are kind of a critical friend working alongside these people, but we’re really focused on the stuff that they think they are, are doing well, or that the stuff that they have promised a funder they will do. [00:04:52] Jeff: And we try to work between them and the funder. I’ll get to the deliverable in a second. [00:04:56] Merlin: No, no, this is fast, because my wife works with, um, does a lot of [00:05:00] stuff with, uh, grants, where she has to like, you know, there’s all kinds of, um, Uh, not World Health Organization, what’s the big one that gives grants? I’m sorry I’m spacing out, but she has to like, yeah, there’s a lot of that putting stuff together where there’ll be like some kind of a mandate that’s stated or implied and you’ve got to show progress on these kinds of things and then there’s metrics and [00:05:19] Jeff: Yes. [00:05:20] Merlin: evaluations of the, of the scholars, [00:05:22] Jeff: this stuff, right? And so like, what we’re always trying to do is if we can get between the funder and the organization and say to the funder and the organization, all right, you’ve promised these things, like, this is what you’ve told them you’re going to do to release the money. [00:05:35] Jeff: But in reality, there are going to be moments where you’re like, fuck, why did we tell them we were going to do this? Because now that we’re in it, what really is working is this thing over here. We’re there to kind of like [00:05:45] Merlin: where you commit, commit too early to [00:05:47] Jeff: Yeah, you commit too early in part because you’re just trying to get that money, right? [00:05:51] Jeff: Like, and, and so we’re there to kind of help between the funder and them to go to the funder and be like, hey, just so you know, we’ve interviewed like all these people that are kind of like the people these folks are trying [00:06:00] to like, help or the systems they’re trying to impact. We’re actually seeing that while they thought they were they were heading here, they’re heading over here. [00:06:06] Jeff: And we actually think that’s like something you should really be supportive of. [00:06:09] Merlin: And maybe you couldn’t even be in contact with those people until that first part happened. It’s like, it takes the doing of that thing to discover that what they need is food vouchers. Not, uh, tote bags or whatever. [00:06:20] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. And honestly, like, if I’m being really, really frank, like, for me, the what, what I like to do in supporting people who are doing the work is to like, be a firewall from the people who like, let’s face it, most funders, most people giving grant money, they’re only at the table, because they have money. [00:06:37] Jeff: They are at the table, because they have money. And you are the one doing all the work to Uh, suffering through all of this stuff, experiencing the pain of failure or of having kind of like aimed wrong, um, [00:06:49] Merlin: some of it also could be in various ways managing expectations with different stakeholders. [00:06:53] Jeff: Yes. Now, on the most, like, if we’re just looking at my work, and so I should say [00:07:00] deliverables are not like there’s a final deliverable. It’s like all along the way we’re doing, we’re like facilitating meaning making sessions with the, whether it’s with the funder or with the organization to kind of be like, this is what we’re learning as we observe your work and talk to the people that are, you know, your work is meant to help. [00:07:14] Jeff: And, and, but let’s, but we’re not experts. So let’s like make some meaning together, figure out kind of like how to do this, the, The way that like, [00:07:22] Merlin: Wow. For the, for the right kind of groups, that must be great. Like I have this cascade I think about in my life a lot, which is, you know, when I tend to think about new information or things in my life, and this is admittedly very oversimplified, but I tend to think about this cascade or this array of like, When new information comes into my life, like, how will this, how can this help me to think differently? [00:07:43] Merlin: How can this help me to decide differently? How can this help me to do differently? And then, of course, like you’re implying here, on this meta level, and then is my ladder against the right wall? Like, how do, what are the checks that are in place for all those things? And, I’ve found that kind of stuff very challenging with, in this case, as you [00:08:00] said, the middle people between these organizations, and it’s sometimes tough to be the person who breaks the news about. [00:08:07] Merlin: I’m going to speak a little bit in douche speech because it might be useful to our listeners. What if you just, how do you, how will you discover? that you’re not aligned on something you just assumed everybody was aligned on. [00:08:19] Jeff: Yes. [00:08:20] Merlin: And boy, it’s tough to be the one, especially if there’s representatives from both sides, like North and South Korea on either side of the blue line, where you’ve got to like break it to both of them that, you know, the bad news is that neither of you have your eye on the right ball right now. [00:08:32] Jeff: Yeah. [00:08:33] Merlin: And that, that’s, that’s, that’s gotta be tough. So it’s more like you’re integrated into the process of what they’re doing. It’s not like you just give them some brick of a report and come back five years later. [00:08:41] Jeff: Right. Exactly. And, and there’s a, there is sort of a accepted premise at the start, which is not always something that the client remembers, that we are, we are focused with them on the emergent. And so we aren’t ever going to just stay in the gray zone, but we are going to definitely recognize that things emerge and those things should have a chance [00:09:00] to guide the work you’re doing. [00:09:01] Merlin: God willing. [00:09:02] Jeff: Yeah, God willing. So and [00:09:04] Merlin: not so obvious when you say it, but in [00:09:06] Jeff: I know, I know. [00:09:07] Merlin: it’s, people are so resistant to that for all, all understandable reasons. [00:09:11] Jeff: Yeah, so resistant. And then like, so if I’m being super concrete, oh my god, Merlin. Is my computer about to go again? Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on. I’m back. Jesus. [00:09:22] Merlin: Hey everybody, just so you know, Jeff won’t say it because he’s a gentleman, but earlier on, uh, we’d recorded a bit, and then Jeff said, Computer. I think the technical term is it shot the bed. And so we started over. So [00:09:33] Jeff: it. Yeah, [00:09:34] Merlin: you didn’t miss much [00:09:35] Jeff: That’s right. Um, okay, so here’s like, I’ll just give you the most concrete thing, [00:09:39] Merlin: because it could crash at any time. We should wrap this up. [00:09:41] Jeff’s Jobby Job [00:09:41] Jeff: This is, yeah, exactly. This is a little outside of what I just described. So, one of my projects right now is there’s an amazing organization here that is called, it’s called Foster Advocates, and it is in Minnesota, and they are made up of mostly ex Fosters, and they have done amazing work at getting legislation passed, all this stuff. [00:09:59] Jeff: They went [00:10:00] around to all 87 counties in Minnesota and the tribal nations and held sessions where they talked and recorded conversations with fosters about like what rights they expect they should have, what rights they know they have and, and where they wonder what the hell rights do we have at all? [00:10:16] Jeff: And they, they hired us and I’m sitting with 85 hours of audio and I go through with qualitative analysis [00:10:23] Merlin: Okay. [00:10:25] Jeff: for patterns. I look for the things that are the nuances that might be missing. We do the meaning making [00:10:30] Merlin: Is it some, some of that, I’m guessing some of that is, um, probably Sort of concretely quantifiable and others are not like I just read this recent report about how Richard Stallman’s not a very good guy And they use this entire process of like this is the number of times that he said this particular objectionable thing Like you were like, but it’s also you also there’s right you’ve got to quantify Nobody nobody likes the tote bags or like 90 percent of people but like but That’s complicated because it also depends, what questions did you ask? [00:10:59] Merlin: Did [00:11:00] you always ask in the same way? And then there’s the fuzzier, like, as young people would say, the vibe kind of thing, like, that you probably got to report on too, which is like, this part of the company, everybody’s happy that this thing works, they don’t even notice it runs so regular, but then there’s these other things. [00:11:13] Merlin: There’s this kind of deep, there’s a shared disc, inchoate disquiet about the future of leadership here that we only discovered after we’d done this for a month. [00:11:23] Jeff: Totally. And then inside of the issues, like the, the organization, which is like preparing this kind of bill of rights package for the state of Minnesota, the organization would be like, okay, so we know that one, one, one theme is like, when you age out of foster care, your credit, how are you going to have credit? [00:11:37] Jeff: Because everything you need to do to succeed, you need to get an apartment, maybe you want, you know, whatever you want to do. And so we already know that Credit is an issue, but like, what comes up in the conversations is how many people’s like, parents, their biological parents kept using their name and social security number throughout the years that that child was in foster care. [00:11:54] Jeff: So their credit is shot because of that. So [00:11:56] Merlin: Oh dear. Oh dear. [00:11:57] Jeff: that like, [00:11:58] Merlin: They treated it like a burner phone. [00:11:59] Jeff: [00:12:00] up. Yeah, and it can kind of rise up into this. So you can add that nuance to the issues. Anyway, that’s, that’s one version [00:12:06] Merlin: And so, and so, I think it sounded like you were about to talk about how this works with your work, in ways others don’t do it? [00:12:13] Jeff: Well, yeah, so I mean, I would just, I guess that the theme for me, and this is if we’re getting back to ChatGPT, is that like, I use it for a lot of things, and most people in my field just assume that it’s dangerous, that you would be leaning on it [00:12:28] Merlin: Dangerous and unreliable. [00:12:30] Jeff: unreliable, when in reality, like anything, it has everything to do with what, how you approach it, right? [00:12:36] Jeff: But I will say, it also has a lot to do with your inherent sense of curiosity. And that is something that I think you’ve brought up. I remember listening, there was a reconciled Global Differences some time ago when John kind of interrogated you on your understanding of, of ChatGPT and AI. That was a delightful episode. [00:12:54] Merlin: like, like so many of those conversations, it’s, it’s the implication that I’m not even allowed to ride on a bus unless I [00:13:00] understand diesel engines. [00:13:01] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. [00:13:03] Merlin: Why don’t, why don’t you, why I would, I would simply learn everything about everything. [00:13:07] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:13:09] Merlin: but no, no, really, really seriously, though, all I really want is like a chunk of code that will let me use CSS to hide this author on this one page. [00:13:16] Merlin: And so, so John, John, I, John, of course, if you ask John, whom I love. He would never even give you a straight answer. But what I could gather from that would be, well, just simply start at the beginning and learn everything [00:13:29] Jeff: Right, right, right. [00:13:31] Merlin: Because if I know about it, and this is the thing, John’s a type, and he doesn’t want to admit this, he doesn’t know this, I’ve met John’s type before, and again, I want to stipulate that I love him. [00:13:38] Merlin: He is a type where he is not aware a certain cataract that he has. This is true for almost all of this, but you notice it with John because he’s so lucid. John only talks about the things that he wants to talk about. And John only gets excited about the things he wants to get excited about. And he has this tick that even a lot of, or especially a lot of nerds have, which is my [00:14:00] deep and complete knowledge about something is what it is. [00:14:04] Merlin: And your falling short of that is a problem. And the, but conversely, or inconversely, if that’s a word, your deep interest, I remember I heard a, I heard a friend of mine who I really respect a lot, white guy from Oakland, Podcast host who, um, who really loves hip hop, especially like Bay Area hip hop. He knows everything about all of those things, but if you start talking about comic books, he goes into like a mode. [00:14:32] Jeff: Hmm. [00:14:33] Merlin: he like, he goes like, oh yeah, you and your funny stories, or whatever, and it’s like, well, I don’t expect you to love comic books, but I do expect you to have the presence of mind and the class to realize that everybody’s different about that stuff. And it’s a bummer that you’re gonna miss the opportunity to learn about something. [00:14:51] Merlin: Why does everybody else like this thing that I hate? Well, that’s an opportunity you’ve now lost, because you’ve been an asshole. But also, be careful because, like, [00:15:00] you are very close to becoming, uh, all I have is a hammer guy. [00:15:03] Jeff: Mm hmm. [00:15:04] Merlin: And so, like, if you are in curious about those things, or you wanna change it to the conversations, like you studied for the wrong blue book essay, and now you you wanna say, well, yeah, but I do know a lot about I didn’t read The Ambassadors, but I know everything about Moby Dick. [00:15:17] Merlin: Can I take a different test? Well, that’s lame. Like, that’s, so it’s not a Siracusa thing, but you, it’s very related to this problem. I’m probably cutting you off, but like, that’s the problem here is, I don’t, I mean, yes, it would be nice to know how everything works, it would be nice to know everything. It is peculiar to me how under the microscope, even the most anodyne benign use of this stuff is, because it, it, it’s sort of like saying, well, like, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m looking at weird, you know. [00:15:49] Merlin: Uh, porn from Thailand, but like, it’s for my work, and you’re like, ooh, you shouldn’t even look at that at all. It’s like, well no, like, there isn’t, I’m sorry I’m going on, but [00:16:00] like, and I don’t mean to get emotional about it, but it is a little frustrating sometimes when people who do all kinds of insane shit every fucking day with all sorts of tools, including computers, things that are unreliable, things that are stupid, but those are all normalized and they’re used to that. [00:16:14] Merlin: They’re used to, we’re used to going to West Portal near our house, and the cellular is just not available for this one, two block area. I don’t get mad every time, like I’m used to that. Do you ever get frustrated with Google results? Sure, but you keep using Google. Well, then, can, is there any analogy to be found there? [00:16:32] Merlin: Is there any analogy to be found, and I’m going to go check on this even if somebody else told me it’s right? Or is it possible there are some things where it really doesn’t matter that much whether it’s right, and you go into it knowing that? [00:16:44] Jeff: Mm hmm. [00:16:45] Merlin: That is a very frustrating prospect to people who think they know a lot about things. [00:16:49] Jeff: There’s also the, the sort of thing about going, you know, to the very root, learning everything from, from sort of the bottom up, um, is, is a huge trap [00:17:00] for me because it’s a [00:17:00] Merlin: It’s also deeply privileged. It’s a hugely privileged thing, and people don’t realize how privileged [00:17:04] Jeff: Yeah, sure. Yeah. And, and for me, it’s a temptation that can become an obsession that will never see itself through. And so I have that temptation and have to stop myself off. When John, when John Siracusa talks about how to learn Unix, I [00:17:21] Merlin: do! That’s the other thing is he won’t tell you! I’ll say to John, well, how do you pronounce your name? And he refuses to do it. He says, I did it in episode 35. Okay. Why are we talking about this? Or, or, but no, it’s not just him, but that is, like, a pretty common thing. It’s, it’s almost like there’s a library of code, and we’ve already covered that, so, like, why would we program around that? [00:17:40] Merlin: Tch! [00:17:41] Jeff: right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. I mean, so as much as I would love to learn Unix in that way, in the end of the day, what I really started needing to do was just figure out which command did this thing. And, and it’s super cool for me to go thumb through the what is the Unix [00:17:56] Merlin: CD, CD, LS, PWD, like, [00:17:59] Jeff: Yeah, [00:17:59] Merlin: [00:18:00] I don’t get started. [00:18:01] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. Um, okay. So I, here’s, that was all kind of a riff on, on curiosity. And the reason I, I even started using that word was like, one of the reasons I actually don’t try to talk about ChatGPT with too many people is because what I find right away, and this may be unfair, but, and I may be too quick to judge this, what I find right away is there is not, there is not the base curiosity needed. [00:18:25] Jeff: Um, So that we can actually have an interesting conversation. We’re just going to be talking. We’re just going to be rehashing the shit that I can, I can listen to on, on NPR. I can, you know, like whatever, like whatever the most sort of base, [00:18:36] Merlin: What it, and like, and just, I mean, there is sort of a little bit of a step zero to this, which is like, it certainly doesn’t seem very cool. Like, it, it, it isn’t like, I don’t know, like, Pickleball. I, I don’t know that much about Pickleball, but everybody talks about Pickleball. People, people really like it, and like, eventually they, people might see the attraction of that. [00:18:55] Merlin: Or whatever. It’s just that the way, whether or not you like, I, people like me kind of don’t [00:19:00] always love the way this, these questions are posed, but there’s that step zero of like, ugh. You know, I mean, again, it’s like asking people, like, nobody, nobody smokes their first cigarette thinking they’re going to die of emphysema, you know, but so, but there’s this part of you that’s like, well, why would he [00:19:16] Jeff: that’d be a super dark turn. Why, why do you want to try it? Well, here’s the thing. [00:19:20] Merlin: Well, you’ll die, but like, that’s not how life works. That’s not how human habits work. And that’s why I love the, I think, It’s easy enough for somebody to just turn this off at this point and go, God, curiosity about how math works. Well, no, but like, Jeff, I think you’re talking about at least a couple kinds of curiosity. [00:19:38] Merlin: The kind that may be obvious and is worth being obvious is that, hey, I’m kind of curious, there’s this new thing, and like, what does it do? There’s the other kind of curiosity, which is like, I may not understand I may not be so close to the metal that I understand how, like, transistors or fabs or whatever. [00:19:56] Merlin: I may not understand how the metal makes computer go, but I [00:20:00] am deeply curious about how it arrived at this particular way of looking at the question that I asked. And there is almost inevitably something for me to learn from that. And that’s it for today. I, if you, if anybody out there wants to go like, well, yeah, I mean, that’s the same thing as like looking at tea leaves or, you know, uh, slaughtering a chicken to see what the future’s going to be. [00:20:18] Merlin: You can put value and purpose into anything, but I do believe that I am, I’m learning a lot about something. And a lot of times I’m not sure what it is that I’m learning about, but I’m definitely learning something. And the results continue to be extremely interesting. And that just makes me more curious. [00:20:37] Merlin: And to your previous point, it’s, I really honestly don’t mean this. So, you know, it’s, in the critical way that it often sounds, but like, it’s not for everybody. [00:20:45] Jeff: Right. [00:20:46] Merlin: And [00:20:47] Jeff: Right. Like that’s part of the curiosity problem. It’s like, you should, part of being curious is to assume immediately, [00:20:52] Merlin: like imagine somebody’s like, Oh my gosh, my phone’s out of power and I can’t charge it and I got to go on this long flight. And you’re like, well, here’s a copy of the Power Broker and you’re like, [00:21:00] Oh, thanks. So there’s like a 1200 page book, like really, uh, but really I just want to charge my phone. [00:21:05] Merlin: And you’re like, yeah, but this is a really good book and you should read it. And like, and, but you know, it’s a silly analogy, but you know what I’m saying? Like it’s, I actually. Ended up accidentally saying a lot of things I liked about this on the latest Dubai Friday, so forgive me if I repeat a little bit of this, but like, the way I look at it in some ways is that people, even people who are like using or are aware of LLMs, or in particular for me, ChatGPT, it’s, I think they treat it a little bit like a vending machine, where it’s like, Or, like, imagine a vending machine at an airport where you can buy a tooth, or like at a hotel where you can buy a toothbrush. [00:21:43] Merlin: Like, or, or, there’s another vending machine where you can go and buy chips. Well, like, I don’t need to buy anything right now, so I don’t need any vending machines. Well, of course, there will be the day you realize you forgot your toothbrush, and you’ll pay 7 for a vending machine toothbrush, because you really want to brush your teeth. [00:21:56] Merlin: That’s how life works. I don’t think it’s wholesome, [00:22:00] and this might be a straw man, if so, forgive me. I don’t think it’s wholesome to look at this as a vending machine. In, in, in one way it’s, I’ll explain in a minute, it’s useful to look at it as a vending machine. But if you think you’re going to walk up to this thing, hit a button and get a Coke. [00:22:13] Merlin: You’re going to be disappointed, because that’s not really what this is for. In some versions of this, it’s not even very good at arithmetic. Oh my god, look how dumb this thing is, it’s a computer and it can’t do arithmetic. Well yeah, but we know enough to know that that’s not, I mean, okay, alright, alright, I’m fine. [00:22:27] Merlin: But then on the other hand, that vending machine analogy works because there are people who act as though they’re asking a Coke machine whether they should get divorced. [00:22:35] Jeff: Right. [00:22:36] Merlin: we know Coke machines are good at is giving you a Coke. So if you want a Coke, that’s a good time to use a Coke machine. If you don’t drink Coke Or don’t have a credit card or a change, as we used to say, then you’re probably not going to interact with the machine. [00:22:49] Merlin: But when you do, if you think about it, it’d be pretty weird to go to the machine, start hitting buttons, and ask it if I can get divorced. If I should get divorced and what I would say is, [00:23:00] well, okay, first of all, you didn’t even put any money in the machine, so you can’t even get a Coke. But is that really a good use of a Coke machine? And I think it’s cynical to do the equivalent of saying, I asked this thing if I could get, if I should get divorced and all it did was give me a Coke or it gave me like a Fanta when I’d ask for a divorce. And it’s like, that’s how it feels to me sometimes when, when people try to impugn this entire sector. [00:23:28] Merlin: And I’m going to be the director of this huge growing piece of our future technology with this whole like, well, I didn’t have a use for it today and I’m pretty sure I don’t trust it and everything that comes out of it is bad and it stole everybody’s art. And like, it’s, then we’re getting into something that I call the phenomenon of everything is everything. [00:23:45] Merlin: Well, can we just talk about like one part of that? Maybe let’s start with the part of, I need to disabuse you of the idea that this is a Coke machine. And if it is a Coke machine, don’t ask it for relationship advice. And I feel like that’s, [00:24:00] to me, that’s a good way to understand it. What if you understood this more as like, talking to a friend who doesn’t know everything? [00:24:06] Merlin: Do you not talk to people if they’re sometimes incorrect? Do you not talk to people? [00:24:10] Sponsor: Pika [00:24:10] Let us break for a sponsor read. 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Microsoft So that’s Pika. page, that’s P I K A by the way, Pika. page slash Overtired. It’s loads simpler than WordPress, Newshook, and way less expensive than Squarespace. In fact, your first 50 blog posts are free. [00:26:33] Boy, I barely get to 50 every time I start a blog. I have a graveyard of blogs. This is an awesome deal. And Pika is made by a team of six real people who care and who actually answer your questions when you email them. That’s pika. page, p i k a. page, slash Overtired, pika. page, slash Overtired. And use Overtired 20 for 20 percent off your first year of the [00:27:00] pro plan. [00:27:00] Thank you, Pika, for sponsoring Overtired. Very grateful. It’s a great service. And now back to my conversation with Merlin Mann. [00:27:09] Because of How We Are [00:27:09] Jeff: You said something. This was also I mean that I revisited that Reconcilable Differences, because it was such an interesting, it was kind of where I initially thought I really want to have Merlin on Overtired, which was the first time earlier this year. Um, but you said something there, and you said, I can immediately see the usefulness of this thing because of how I am. [00:27:27] Jeff: And, and I’m wondering if you can kind of give me an example of, of something that is just a perfect example of what the usefulness is for you, and I know there’s lots of different ways, but and and how it is useful because [00:27:40] Merlin: because of how I am. [00:27:42] Jeff: does that mean? [00:27:43] Merlin: Um, I think, is it cool to talk about this? [00:27:48] Jeff: Yeah, please. [00:27:49] Merlin: I can give you one. I mean, I’ll avoid all the prologue stuff, but like, I’ve been at ChatGPT for, I don’t know, I think over a year now. I’ve done some image generation stuff, but [00:28:00] ChatGPT is the one I’ve sort of imprinted on in the Conrad Lorenz sense, like this is my daddy. [00:28:04] Merlin: Like this is the one I feel like I mostly understand. It just doesn’t make sense to me to run around and try 60 of these. You know, learning one, let me learn this one hammer before I buy more hammers or even try more hammers. Here’s one of the first ways is. A term I might be abusing or misusing, but is that I, for whatever reason, there’s a thing you can learn. [00:28:28] Merlin: A consultant can come out and you’re gonna teach all the executives about lateral thinking. Or what some people, I think, erroneously call thinking outside the box. But, you know, There are, there’s, there, if you think of the world as, as these, these series of different kinds of grids or, uh, graphs or spreadsheets, you know, with two different kinds of things on it, like, I, without even being able to help myself have a kind of emotional synesthesia, where I very easily, easily slip into at least thinking about things that are related to the thing in a way that others don’t.[00:29:00] [00:29:00] Merlin: Which on the one hand is what occasionally makes me funny. Honestly, part of being funny is being able to relate to unrelated things. Okay, so, like, I go into this thinking, like, I hear somebody speak in a certain cadence, and it makes me think of a line from The Simpsons. Or something a little bit more Like, really closer to the liberal arts in terms of like, well, that process that you just described sounds a lot like one of Hegel’s tripartite charts. [00:29:27] Merlin: And like, not, not necessarily, not, not to brag or like say like, oh, listen to me, I read a book, but more a way of saying like, when you become widely read and learned at least about a handful of topics, you kind of can’t help but keep relating them to each other. So I just want to stipulate that that’s one thing that’s weird about me in a way that I think is unusual. [00:29:45] Merlin: I’m a mess. Talking to me is a nightmare. But like, I can’t help but think laterally because that’s just how I think. I think maybe if you wanted to put that more negatively, one of my challenges, apart [00:30:00] from problems with authority in life, is that I am, I’m not good at thinking laterally. Unilaterally. [00:30:06] Jeff: Hmm. [00:30:07] Merlin: And that doesn’t mean I can’t stay on topic because I sure can, but I find it, I feel like it really just grinds it into the ground to when you’re sitting around with people and you go like, okay, well we’ve done, we’ve done one, and we’ve done two, and we’ve done three. [00:30:18] Merlin: What do we think comes next? Everybody goes, well, I think that’s gonna be four. All right. And then after four, and you’re, I’m like. Oh my God, you guys are killing me. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, that could be the Dave Brubeck song, 5, that could, like, there’s all these different things where I’m like, my brain is going in a million directions about what 5 means, Jackson 5, my list of 5, like, I can’t stop doing that. [00:30:38] Merlin: So here’s an example. One of the early things Well, honestly, was realizing that this is a good fit for people who think that way. I don’t, I’m not going to say that it’s a bad fit for people who don’t think that way. I watch so much TV in general, but I also, I’m always thinking, for example, oh, it’s that [00:31:00] guy from the thing. [00:31:01] Merlin: Except from that thing, not the thing, that would be Wilford Brimley. But like, uh, but, but like, for example, last night, I, I gotta make my wife watch the worst shit. We were watching, I was watching the 25th anniversary, uh, performance of, uh, Les Mis. And they do this wonderful thing where all of the, like, you know, available original cast comes out there, you know? And like the guy who plays the, what’s it called, like the innkeeper, the Sacha Baron Cohen character in the movie. La la la la, master of the house, da ba da ba da ba da ba da la there’s a free for all. He’s played by this actor in 1985. He’s played by this actor who I love from lots of British TV shows. [00:31:43] Merlin: Uh, uh, especially Shakespearean stuff. He’s in the Hall of Crown. Uh, the Henry the Fourth, uh, and Fifth, uh, thing. And I was just saying to my wife, like, that guy, I love that guy. He’s one of those guys. He’s one of those guys like Jared Harris or like the guy who plays Filch in Harry Potter. That guy’s [00:32:00] in everything. [00:32:00] Merlin: So what do I do? I let go and I let God. I’m accepting the fact that I’m weird and I think like this and I go in one of my early things that continues to be something I do a lot. And I’m not going to read this. I’ll just. because I’ve done this so many times, uh, make me a markdown table of everybody who’s been in at least one episode of Doctor Who, at least one episode of Game of Thrones, um, Uh, Doctor Who, Game of Thrones, um, what was the other one? [00:32:30] Merlin: Uh, oh, oh, oh, and then like Hot Fuzz, I threw in a few, or Shakespeare, blah, blah. I’ve done this a million different ways. But even if you do that with three things, if you do that with Harry Potter and, um, and Game of Thrones, you’re gonna say, oh, it’s the guy who played Filch, it’s the guy who’s Walder Frey. [00:32:47] Merlin: He’s been in all those things. It gives you a table of here’s like seven people. And then I say, Oh, that’s a pretty good table. It’s got, you know, you can, if you’re a nerd, you know, all this stuff there’s as everybody knows, there’s only 11 actors on the entire [00:33:00] island. But, but, but you know what I’m saying? [00:33:01] Merlin: And then, but then I say, that’s really cool. Okay. Now new columns for name of role. And it just knows to do that. One time I asked it this kind of question where I said, actors who’ve been inductor, actors who’ve been inductor, who Hot fuzz and some Shakespeare production, Henry the V or whatever. And then I did this thing where I said in the columns, I said, roll in a Harry Potter movie. [00:33:29] Merlin: I didn’t have to tell it. In the, quote, question or prompt, it just knew what to do, and it just added that column. [00:33:37] Jeff: Yes. [00:33:37] Merlin: Now, why is that great? Well, great, that’s great because that’s the way my mind works, and I think it’s kind of cool to see that, um, God, what is that guy’s name? David Bradley. David Bradley, he’s in, God, he’s in everything. [00:33:47] Merlin: And he’s the guy who mumbles in Hot Fuzz, the guy who has the guns. [00:33:51] Jeff: No, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:33:52] Merlin: Have you seen season four of Game of Thrones? [00:33:55] Jeff: Yep. [00:33:56] Merlin: So you know Wal you know Wal you know Walder [00:33:58] Jeff: Yes, of course, yeah. [00:33:59] Merlin: Okay.[00:34:00] [00:34:00] Jeff: Amazing. That’s [00:34:02] Merlin: know his granddaughter’s name. [00:34:04] Jeff: right. [00:34:06] Merlin: Waldeen, [00:34:09] Jeff: Oh my god. It’s been a long time. [00:34:12] Merlin: but, uh, so on the one hand, okay. Would I ever do that on my own? [00:34:17] Merlin: Would I ever really like sit down and go to IMDB? And remember, everything has to be perfect. So I have to find this exactly right. So by hand, I’m going to go in, I’m going to go make a spreadsheet, right? If I did this by myself, you can see where this is going. It would be kind of silly for me to do that. [00:34:33] Merlin: Number one way that this is good for the way that I am, this is already how I think. And And I run into challenges with how I could take what I think or what I’m curious about and turn it into something without a grave amount of extra work. Okay. So first, I know it can do that. And second of all, it will do that. [00:34:51] Merlin: And what it comes up with may not be perfect. Sometimes it’s not even right. But that’s one way, that’s a starter, okay, [00:35:00] is like, you may be a person who does not think this way. You may not be a person who makes a lot of spreadsheets. I have spreadsheets about every flashlight I’ve ever owned. I have spreadsheets about every Uh, two factor authentication, Dingus I own, with pictures and serial numbers and links to documentation. [00:35:19] Merlin: I have a PDF of the manual for every item I own on iCloud. These are, that’s all weird, and that’s okay. But if one asks the question, who is this nonsense for? Oh brother, is this nonsense ever for me? Or I can just say, make a block, I need a block. Uh, that’s, uh, 50mm wide with a circle through the middle that tapers on the end and has a chamfer of this fillet on the, on the edges, and it’ll create me a 3MJ, like a 3D object like that. [00:35:46] Merlin: Yeah, that’s how my mind works. I would rather do that for a simple device than have to learn CAD. Yeah, but do you really understand FDM printing if you haven’t learned CAD? I’ll never find out! Like, I’m willing to learn CAD when I need to, but if [00:36:00] there’s this thing that can do that thing for me, and it’s the same thing that’ll tell me what David Bradley’s in, and plus then, I’m getting way ahead now, with the addition of memory, which is not working so great on the current model, but like all those different kinds of things, uploading images, all those things like that, and that’s what leads me to just a slight sadness that it’s not something somebody else could find as interesting as I have, but if we keep doing The bar seems to keep coming back to these two things, which is like, is there anything bad or nefarious in any conceivable way with what this thing is? [00:36:31] Merlin: Wow. Sounds like pretty much every technology, doesn’t it? Is there something bad or nefarious and like, could this actually be something useful but limited even if it’s not always quote right? And the answer to both of those questions is a no brainer for me. Like, go show me the thing that’s always exactly right. [00:36:46] Merlin: That’s always exactly right and up to date. That’s always exactly right and up to date and contextual. You know what that takes? It takes your fucking brain going in and deciding what you think about whether that’s the correct answer. [00:36:57] Jeff: Yeah. [00:36:58] Merlin: And it’s just that in the case of this, [00:37:00] because it’s not thinking in a conventional sense, it’s not computing in a conventional sense, you’re going to get some really weird stuff. [00:37:07] Merlin: And then when you say to it, well, did you forget that David Bradley was this and that, it’ll go, I’m sorry, I’ve made a mistake, blah, blah, blah. I asked it recently, last week, I can tell you specifically, I asked it what year the building that my mother lives in was built. For hurricane reasons. And it very confidently gave me a year, I asked for the citation for that. [00:37:28] Merlin: Asking ChatGPT for a citation is funny, because in some ways it really can’t know what the citation is. Like, it’ll make up a citation, because the same way that the human mind will come up with a reason why it does everything. But it doesn’t. I, and I just kept pushing it and pursuing it and said, no, that was incorrect. [00:37:44] Merlin: I shouldn’t have told you that. It was like a French, it was like a waiter that had dropped a roll and felt really bad about it and just didn’t want to talk about it. And I kept pushing it and pushing it. And I was like, no, no, no. I want to like figure out, it’s not, I’m not mad. LLM. I’m just curious how you arrived at that. [00:37:57] Merlin: And it told me how it thinks, [00:38:00] this is the thing. It told me how it thinks. Thinks it made a mistake about something where it has no way of knowing that it made a mistake. So it came up with a reason why it thought it was 1998 or 1973. It came up with a reason why it got that wrong. You don’t saying like all the way through. [00:38:16] Merlin: I find all of that endlessly fascinating and it doesn’t make me trust it less. It makes me. As aware as ever that this is not where to go for facts a lot of the time. And if it is where to go for facts, I mean, if it makes me that table dude, like, can’t I just go in and fix the stuff that I know isn’t right? [00:38:37] Merlin: Or where it came up with a synonym for something? It still saved me, like, it saves me three hours of work on every task, every day. [00:38:46] Jeff: if you’re the type of person, which you and I both are, who is going to take the time to make that incredibly tedious [00:38:52] Merlin: fact check all my tweets, [00:38:54] Jeff: yes, this thing is going to get you. I mean, I just, the other day, I, you know, I’ve been sitting on a pile of my [00:39:00] tickets from First Avenue shows, uh, from the nineties, I was sitting on that pile forever. [00:39:04] Jeff: I love to look at it. And I’ve always wanted. A spreadsheet of everything. And so I was like, ah, I’ll try this. I took pictures of five at a time and I put them in the chat GPT. And I said, I want, I want a spreadsheet. I want a CSV and I want you to put everything. I want the door time, the, the show time. I want the price. [00:39:21] Jeff: I want, I want the opening band, all the opening, whatever, everything. Right. Like everything I want [00:39:25] Merlin: And I think also importantly, maybe not First Avenue, because you’re all at the same place in the same city. For me, it’s also the venue. Where I’m like, I can’t remember if this was at the Cuban Club in Ybor City, or, you know what I mean? [00:39:35] Jeff: Yeah. And if it’s the early show, say it’s the early show. If it’s the late show, say it’s the late show. And it created this, this CSV that I will say when I looked at it, um, I, I have, for whatever reason, I have a deep compulsion to be able to hold a lot of things at once in a way that I can look at them all. [00:39:54] Jeff: And that makes me feel very calm. And, and when I looked at what was [00:40:00] essentially a timeline of a really important decade of my life, And this thing gave that to me. Um, it was, it’s exactly why I use this tool. There’s a million other reasons. I use it for really [00:40:11] Merlin: Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s difficult, but isn’t, I mean, we’re both, I think, struggling a little bit to describe what the thing of that is. I can answer the question of why I think it’s good for me, because of how I. How I am, if you like, or how I think, but, but like what you’re describing there, like, just creating a table that I would fill in later. [00:40:29] Merlin: Well, thank God for Brett’s table flip, which is a great app. But you know what I mean? Like, even just [00:40:33] Jeff: That’s not Brett. Christian Tietz, the guy who created the archive. [00:40:37] Merlin: oh, oh, wait a minute. Oh, wait, is he the Zytel, [00:40:42] Jeff: Yeah, Zettelkasten guy, which, Zettelkasten, not unrelated to this conversation, but very unrelated in a lot of [00:40:48] Merlin: put a pin [00:40:48] Jeff: We’re not, we’re not gonna, it’s, [00:40:50] Merlin: Sorry, sorry, I regret the error. But like, even just the mechanics of I mean, it sounds easy, but you go to IMDB and look up David Bradley, you can see everything he’s in. Well, that’s one, [00:41:00] that’s one angle of that. That’s one row or column of that. But how would I even know what I don’t know about? [00:41:08] Jeff: Mm [00:41:08] Merlin: And that’s where, and if it fills in a table, if it creates the basis of a table with 25 lines in it, I can always change all of that later. I can also ask it to do better. And it often does. But, you know, and then it’s frustrating because sometimes I might, one of my original use cases was making playlists for YouTube and Spotify back, back in the day when the store first started and you can have different, you know, um, I seem to have kind of gotten away from that a little bit. [00:41:33] Merlin: I don’t exactly understand why, but like, it’s even just creating the, you know, the And the frame for what it is that I’m exploring helps me think about it better. [00:41:43] Jeff: Yeah. [00:41:44] Merlin: And singing, and here’s another example. When I said, God damn it, oh, you know what it is? Here’s a recent one. As of a week or two ago, a kid and I went to see Megalopolis and I said, I want to see, [00:41:55] Jeff: my boys to see that this weekend. [00:41:57] Merlin: my God, [00:42:00] get back to the club. [00:42:01] Merlin: Um, [00:42:03] Jeff: Okay, anyway. [00:42:04] Merlin: you know, you can stop time. [00:42:05] Jeff: Ha! Yeah! No, yeah, right. Woo! [00:42:11] Merlin: A lot of ideas. A lot of ideas in that. Um, but, uh, but. I find, and again this, I’m trying to be big hearted and open and honest and kind to everyone in the way that I say this, but I, I don’t mean this in a mean way, but maybe this is not interesting to other people. [00:42:26] Merlin: Maybe people want a Coke machine that produces just the Coke that they want, this is exactly the temperature that they want, and the more, but the more time I spend with this, the more I realize that it is a collaboration, that there’s ways that, you know, we I could be better at asking for, asking what I want, like I, cause we’re all in the same way that we have these occasionally somewhat long term dysfunctional relationships cause we don’t know how to ask for what we want or to ask people what they want, we don’t know how to talk to people about stuff and so we satisfy through life with all this like sort of getting by. [00:42:57] Merlin: Well, with this, I get a much more. [00:43:00] Active in a direct way, however this thing is made, whatever computer it’s running on, there are things to learn from this. [00:43:06] Jeff: Yeah. [00:43:06] Merlin: And the thing is, if I tell it, hey, you know, you did a bad job at that, do this instead, this is what I wanted. Not to be mean, but just, again, collaboration, which is like, I see how, now I think I see how you got there, but what I really want is more of this. [00:43:20] Merlin: And then with this latest model, as I was saying to Alex, it’s more and more I’m getting away from this XY problem of going in and asking for something deeply technical instead of just saying, go make this for me. And it does. And I don’t know. I don’t know how you don’t find that exciting. I’m somebody who first started multitrack recording with two cassettes. [00:43:41] Merlin: and a pause button. I used to try and make mixes that way. Like, I, I had a four track, uh, our college had one, and then I have, like, I’m forever using, like, spit and bailing wire and rubber, rubber bands and Maxell tapes to try and produce a world that makes sense. And [00:44:00] anything that helps these parts It’s like, it’s part, can we, is there no way to look at this as another tool in the box? [00:44:22] Merlin: The title of the episode comes from this, The Greatest Screwdriver in the World, is the idea that like, no matter how good your screwdriver is, you can’t use it for everything. Even if you have a, uh, like a, uh, a Vera, like really good screwdriver with, that’s, it’s still not, it’s not even good for every screw, dude. [00:44:37] Merlin: It’s, if it’s a flathead and you’ve got a Phillips head, well, that’s not what that’s for. And that doesn’t mean the screw failed you. [00:44:45] Jeff: you, you said something a little bit ago, or you kind of got towards something that I, that has been really meaningful to me. And if I were to use it, if I were in a classroom and I was using ChatGPT to teach something, what I would teach is essentially the experience for [00:45:00] me of Being forced to slow down and be specific. [00:45:05] Jeff: And like you said about what you want, right? And in human relationships, the funny thing is, it’s bad at, it’s bad at interpreting what you say you don’t want. It’s, it’s really only good at interpreting what you say you do want, which I think is a very funny, very human dynamic. But like, [00:45:18] Merlin: And that’s something, that’s something we tolerate or sometimes enjoy, I guess, that kind of chunking and heuristics and all the sorts of things are the kinds of things that make, make our day to day human life with each other. Like. Like bearable in the same way that like you say to somebody how you doing and they go into a 14 minute speech about their how their mudroom is getting relined and it’s taking forever and you’re like, well, I just said that to be polite. [00:45:41] Merlin: I didn’t really want to know about your mudroom, but we tolerate that. We have such a low tolerance for how wrong this, these things are all the time. And it’s like, I don’t know if that’s the best way to look at it. I mean, is a, I mean, a Xerox machine is wrong in some ways because all it’s doing is making in the back in the day, and we have black and white image. [00:45:58] Merlin: It’s not the book that’s just a black [00:46:00] and white image of the book. I don’t mean to get all semiotic, but like it’s not actually that complicated. We interact with stuff all day long, every day our entire life. That is far less reliable at ChatGPT, it’s just that they’re less reliable at things we’ve learned how to tolerate and not be scared of. [00:46:15] Jeff: yes, yes. I’m wondering, you, I don’t know if you want to talk about this or not, but I know [00:46:21] Merlin: I want to talk about your repo, all this stuff you’ve got in here. My [00:46:24] Jeff: you see that? I took, yeah, okay, so I’ll explain. I [00:46:27] Merlin: But, you know, I just, I don’t want to [00:46:29] Jeff: Yeah, we’ll get to [00:46:30] Merlin: a way that we don’t get to talk about all your very good stuff you’ve put in here. [00:46:33] Jeff: Um, I, oh man, what was I saying? What was I [00:46:37] Merlin: Um, ChatGPTs and the right tool for the job or tolerance, tolerance for people and tolerance for incorrectness. Yeah. [00:46:46] Jeff: I’ll tell you what, I will, I will actually, this will come back to me, I’m sure, but like, this thing about slowing down and being, So I’m going to talk a little bit about what I have found, I mean, I’ve found this literally, it’s almost like we talked about practices last [00:47:00] time. It can be almost like a practice because my nature is to want to gather up so much, so fast, because I want to see the connections in the world. [00:47:09] Jeff: I want to see through some other window. I mean, I think there’s a lot of reasons that this connects to how I grew up and my kind of interior life as I was [00:47:17] Merlin: Yes, [00:47:18] Jeff: sort of, sort of [00:47:19] Merlin: Expansive, and Expansive, this is the beauty of the Lonely Boys title, is that expansive inner world, that like, we always wanna like impose upon our children, of like, you should be bored more, it’s like, no, god, what a piece of shit you are to say stuff like that, but like the expansive interior world of like, this is the book I’ve got, and I’m gonna read it and read it and read it, and like, I’m, you know, just like the funny drawings that you make, and all those little things that are just part of, An expansive interior world where you haven’t learned to be ashamed of, of how little you know in life and what excites you in life. [00:47:53] Merlin: And everybody’s supposed to become so ashamed about all those things and so confident about all these other things and like [00:48:00] put on this big show and it’s like, well, no, I’m always going to be, I’m always going to be a Lasky Child at heart. [00:48:04] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Wondering, wondering, wondering, right? Like, imagining what these connections might [00:48:11] Merlin: Too much time, not enough money. No, it’s too much time, not enough money, a life in Florida. There’s a [00:48:21] Jeff: Oh, that’s good. I like that. I like that a lot. Um, yeah. Anyway, I found that really, and initially I experienced that in trying to do code stuff, but then when I just wanted information, when I wanted to make those goofy tables, I, I eventually got kind of quick at it, but like, I actually loved having to stop because this is the thing. [00:48:38] Jeff: It’s almost a manic energy to me wanting to [00:48:40] Merlin: I know, I know, it’s weird that I feel like I know exactly what you mean, which is like, think about the scene when Luke is doing the trench run, [00:48:49] Jeff: Yes. [00:48:49] Merlin: right when, right when Obi Wan tells him to like, use the force, and right, you know, it’s before he turns off the, the targeting thing, but there’s that moment where he has this like, little, you know, Human caesura, where [00:49:00] he’s kind of like, okay, this is the way I’m going to do this. [00:49:05] Merlin: And, you know, the way, and I’m not saying like, oh, I got to talk myself off. No, but that’s, sometimes we find a moment of grace like that where you go, oh, wait a minute. I can totally do this. And I just need I need to, my head in the game, I need to focus on this, I need to do the thing, but being weird about it is not helping. [00:49:23] Merlin: You know, a two meter target, that’s a very small target. Isn’t that kind of what you’re describing? Then when I sit down, I’m like, I’m so used to this, like, ah, you’re a coke machine. [00:49:31] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:49:32] Merlin: the factorial of blah is, and like, you’re stupid. And instead just go like, oh, I see. But if I ask for it this way, and with different models, you learn different things. [00:49:43] Merlin: But you’re right though, you, it’s a slower, more deliberative, purpose, on purpose kind of thinking. [00:49:50] Jeff: Which is not something I think it takes. This is getting back to the, like, does somebody have the curiosity to have the conversation? That is the thing that is miles away when you [00:50:00] start most conversations about ChatGPT. And it’s the first thing I’m thinking about. It’s the thing I’m trying. I’m waiting for the point where in this conversation, I can say this part. [00:50:09] Jeff: So we get past all of your incuriosity. And I can say, think about this part, right, that they’re actually, you know, there was a point at which I fed it. Talks I had given about storytelling or story gathering, I fed it old bios I had written, I fed it interviews with me on podcasts, and I said, tell me about this guy. [00:50:27] Jeff: And, and what it gave, what it gave me back was all the stuff that I am. I am too something to tell myself I am. It was right. I was like, that is me. Goddammit. I would never say it out loud, but you have just described me to me in a way that actually amazingly gives me a little permission to sort of like hold that and be proud [00:50:47] Merlin: I mean, was it doing it? If you can say, like, how was it trying? Was it trying to describe the person who said all that? It was [00:50:54] Jeff: Yes. So it was a [00:50:55] Merlin: qualities or like tendencies or [00:50:57] Jeff: me qualities about this person. Tell me what [00:51:00] this person’s priorities are. Tell me what kind of, you know, life is important to this person. Um, and, and there was, everything was like right on. I’m like, yes, no, that is how I would describe myself, but have always been a little too something to do it. [00:51:13] Jeff: Like, that voice is in you going, oh, shut the fuck up. Um, yeah. And, and so here was this thing, and this would sound so absurd to so many people here, was this thing that in reflecting back to me, myself at my fucking request, by the way, uh, , like I actually, [00:51:30] Merlin: for this. I said I wanted this. [00:51:32] Jeff: I felt things, I was able to actually like unlock a sort of relationship with myself that wasn’t there. [00:51:37] Jeff: I don’t wanna over blow this, but like, but it was, this is the kinda shit that like if you get, if you get past the, in curiosity and. [00:51:45] Merlin: But I mean, think about Eliza, which is a story everybody knows, which, [00:51:48] Jeff: I [00:51:51] Merlin: but the, um, but the, the, the, the thing where the guy at Berkeley, I think, came up with the program, it’s the famous, God, I’m sorry, I’m telling the story like Siracusa, but like [00:51:59] Jeff: know it.[00:52:00] [00:52:00] Merlin: oh, E L I Z A, Google it, um, and this guy had come up with a program that appears to be, it’s very basic, like, you know, Command line program where he says, Hey, hi, I’m Eliza. [00:52:09] Merlin: Like, how are you? And you talk to it and it’s a very elementary program. So a lot of what it does is mirroring and asking questions. And it says, well, how do you feel about that? And the story, and this is, I don’t know, this could be one of those twice told tales was like the guy showed it to his admin and like, she was like, could you please leave the room? [00:52:29] Merlin: I just want to do this for two hours. People would get so involved in Eliza. And at no point did somebody think that was a real person, quote [00:52:37] Jeff: yeah, yeah, [00:52:38] Merlin: doesn’t change the fact, like, why do, why are people so resistant to realize how much of themselves they bring to their work and what they do? [00:52:46] Merlin: Because if you did that, you would go, well, of course this is interesting. And I know this is a machine. Like, I was a child, I could throw a ball against a wall for two hours and be pretty happy. I mean, I didn’t think the wall was a person, but I was more amused than I would have been doing nothing. And [00:53:00] in that instance, because you are talking about yourself, but you’re realizing things. [00:53:03] Merlin: It’s. It’s a continuum of an exchange, even if it’s with a computer. Do you know what I mean? And it’s like, it’s like, we’ve known about that for 40, 50 years, that that’s a thing. And like, if you set somebody down in front of Eliza today, the exact same thing would happen. [00:53:19] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a yes. That’s a [00:53:24] Merlin: I see what you mean though. It does, it makes you, you’re getting at something emotional here. Like, it may just be a computer, but like, maybe you’re realizing something about yourself as you’re doing it. And I don’t. I think that’s unwholesome. [00:53:37] Jeff: No, yeah, exactly. It’s not unwholesome. I like that. I mean, and even to you, I mean, you had mentioned this repo. So I, I created a repo for the last episode where I wanted to just take the transcript and fuck around in ChatGPT and put what’s in there. It’s what came out of it in there. So the show notes are there too. [00:53:50] Jeff: That was human made, but like with the help of ChatGPT. But one of the things I did, and it took a lot of collaboration. It wasn’t just an easy thing was to, I wanted [00:54:00] a glossary of terms, uh, because what struck me about that conversation, which is the kind of conversation I love to have. And if I kind of tick off my, the closest people in my life, they’re almost all people with whom I can bounce around in that way. [00:54:14] Jeff: And, and that is a feeling of joy and wonder for me that I don’t always find with humans, right? Like, and, and so when I made that glossary of God knows [00:54:22] Merlin: I have so many things I can’t say about what you’re saying right now. I, there’s, it would be very difficult for me to agree with you more. To, to borrow, to borrow, again, to borrow a phrase from my brother, my brother and me. It’s just so, so difficult sometimes to find someone who’ll play with you in the space. [00:54:38] Jeff: yes, [00:54:38] Merlin: You know? [00:54:39] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, instantly if the person is not, or is that person, right? Like, it’s like, Oh, I got to figure out how to [00:54:46] Merlin: You’ll know pretty darn quickly. [00:54:48] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. I said Bon Jovi way too soon in this conversation. [00:54:52] Merlin: Or like, I tend to think of it in terms of layers or levels, where it’s like, and my frustration, as I’ve said, is that I do feel like I sometimes, I’m [00:55:00] not trying to build myself up or puff myself up or anybody else down, [00:55:04] Jeff: ChatGPT do that for you. [00:55:05] Merlin: I’ll let Jeff GPT do that for me. [00:55:07] Merlin: There’s a lot of people out there who are very resistant to going any more than two levels into anything. It’s, and I’m not even talking about like weird like, you know, um, inception type stuff. I’m talking more like, well, here’s my, here’s my raw, hot take on this, here’s a yeah, but turns out about that. [00:55:23] Merlin: And it’s like, the thing is like, we haven’t even gotten to the third or fourth layer where we figured out this is actually not what this thing is about at [00:55:30] Jeff: Yes. [00:55:31] Merlin: there’s so little interest in pursuing that, and because people like that fast thinking. And at this point we should probably mention Daniel Kahneman, but I mean, I think that is related. [00:55:41] Merlin: The, the thinking fast and slow idea of like, there are these in behavioral economics, there are these things where like if, if I ask you, if you were a person like me and you, uh, and I ask you what 2N2 is, you can’t help but think four. You can’t, it’s like don’t think of an elephant type stuff. Whereas if I ask you to do longer [00:56:00] division with numbers that ends in, you know, sevens and nines, it gets harder, and you have to do a different kind of slower thinking. [00:56:06] Jeff: So I’m curious with you. [00:56:07] Jeff: Okay, so when I think of when I looked at that glossary when it was done, and if you look at the glossary, if anybody looks at this, I’ll put a link in the show notes. The descriptions are not something I have fully edited, [00:56:17] Merlin: Oh my gosh. Oh my God. Okay, so, sorry, sorry, sorry. So, so just to be clear, ’cause I’m stupid, you got from DS script or Mac Whisperer or something. You got a transcript of the show, it knows who’s who, what kind of prompt. So what I’m looking at here is a, uh, at least 260 line, uh uh, sorry, row. Markdown table with term category and definition. [00:56:42] Merlin: Can I ask, am I jumping ahead to ask roughly what you asked to get this? [00:56:45] Jeff: Yeah, sure. I mean, I’ll try to retrace my steps. I sort of played between models, the new, like, whatever, oh, one [00:56:51] Merlin: Like, how, how did you let it know? Like what should, how would you like Glossary would include? So it’s just anything novel. [00:56:57] Jeff: so actually, I started in kind of a [00:57:00] funny way, which was to sort of test it, and that was something I’ve been doing with some interview transcripts in my work, was I fed the new model, our transcript, and said, I want to see a markdown checklist of all the things you think might have been mistranscribed, right? [00:57:16] Merlin: I love this. I [00:57:17] Jeff: And that, that became that was the beginning of the glossary because and they were coming up with stuff like Karras is not with a C, it’s with a K. And it comes from Kurt Vonnegut and like all that, [00:57:27] Merlin: I, I I, I’ve done that thing where like, this is a big thing people talked about for a while. Ask it to be this or ask it to be that. Ask it to do this. I, I’ve asked it to be the, the most knowledgeable person in the world about home, home technologies, like smart home technology and, um, show me the, the show in the thing that I just wrote is the thing that I just made. [00:57:46] Merlin: Um, show me the things that are the biggest problem. Show me the things that are most likely to be untrue. Fact check my work, act like you’re the smartest person in the world. Find the, here’s another way to put it, find the weakest part of my argument. [00:57:58] Jeff: Mm hmm. [00:57:58] Merlin: And it’s pretty good at [00:58:00] that. [00:58:00] Jeff: Mm [00:58:00] Merlin: When you ask it to be somebody smart, [00:58:02] Jeff: Well, and what blew my mind, I intentionally did, so initially when I tried to do this, I gave it like my bio and yours and like, here are the two guys that are talking, now go through this and whatever, right? And it actually wasn’t that effective. It got kind of confused. When I said nothing, it pulled that new model, pulled sort of context so well, and caught things that it should never have caught. [00:58:22] Jeff: Like, it shouldn’t have known how to spell Sebedo, like necessarily, because [00:58:26] Merlin: you must’ve, you must’ve really put it, you must’ve put a hurting on some tokens here. Likes. Seriously. Like [00:58:34] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. [00:58:35] Merlin: I mean, there’s so many I’m see, I see so many tokens in what it came up with here. [00:58:40] Jeff: so here’s so okay, so if I’m if I’m walking through the process, that was the beginning of the process. And actually, in the repo, there’s a there’s one file that’s just amusing corrections that it that it felt like it was seeing it. So that’s, that’s where I started like, okay, well, that’s really interesting. [00:58:56] Jeff: So actually, actually, I mean, [00:58:58] Merlin: I like to cut up your [00:59:00] jib. [00:59:00] Jeff: I’d like to cut up your chip. It’s [00:59:02] Merlin: Um, so, so actually Vampire title is an album, not an ep. Um, [00:59:06] Jeff: That’s the other one. It’s like such a, such a dude half the time. [00:59:10] Merlin: oh, I know. It’s, it’s a character from U Nice. Today I call Carl Van Hoot. So actually, um, [00:59:18] Jeff: So okay, so actually here was the me here was the me It was the manual step. I, I like, I never ask it to fix things in a transcript and feed me the transcript back. I say, give me a markdown checklist, and then I go through. So I actually manually changed based on that checklist. Then I fed it in again. [00:59:34] Jeff: What do you see that might be wrong? And then I felt like I was ready to say, I want a glossary of terms. And it took a little bit of like, no, no, when I say terms. I don’t want these things. I want these types of things. And then it was like, but then it was pretty easy. It was like, I want a column that’s sort of a description. [00:59:51] Jeff: I want you to group it. I want to give a little category so you can group it. And the kinds of shit that it was filling in was really unbelievable to me. [01:00:00] Um, and so, yeah, that was the back and forth really. There was a lot of just massaging, like, yeah, you basically got it. And then I edited three or four of the entries. [01:00:08] Jeff: And it’s not that there’s not more that should be, but those are the ones that [01:00:11] Merlin: Huey Lewis sports [01:00:13] Jeff: Yeah, [01:00:14] Merlin: Huey Lewis and the News sports. [01:00:16] Jeff: actually, uh, I think it also corrected, you had said, [01:00:21] Merlin: Tripanning. Didn’t like my tripanning. [01:00:23] Jeff: oh yeah, that’s drilling into the head, uh, there was a point at which you, you, um, were talking about David Bowie introducing Adrienne Ballou, and you [01:00:32] Merlin: Actually, he’s from [01:00:33] Jeff: from, and it was like, actually, Adrienne Ballou was from, it’s just amazing, [01:00:38] Merlin: that’s so great. How much did it cost you to hire everyone on Mastodon? [01:00:43] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. [01:00:44] Merlin: I can only have one of two opinions about everything. Either I don’t care about what you’re saying, or I think it’s wrong. [01:00:51] Jeff: But Merlin, here’s the crazy thing. Like, when I was done with that and I looked at it, it was similar when I looked at the list of like, I don’t know, 36 [01:01:00] songs or something. I think there might be a few more, but the ones that I identified through ChatGPT were 36. Um, I, I looked at that and I said, that’s all in me. [01:01:10] Jeff: Like that, that was a, that was the transcript of just the 90 [01:01:14] Merlin: By the way, it would be one thing to see, like, your EKG or something expressed as a line and go, Well, that’s my heart. And in this you’re like, Oh my gosh, this has all been in me the whole time, it’s just now I’m seeing it in a table. [01:01:25] Jeff: Yes. And that’s [01:01:26] Merlin: I know what all these things mean. Isn’t that weird? [01:01:28] Jeff: Yes. And that and the fact that you and I were bouncing on that. It’s like there is another person and there are there’s other people that for some fucking reason, some of it you can you can guess certain movies, we’re all going to talk about Big Lebowski, right? Like, that’s not a surprise. [01:01:41] Jeff: But like, the sort of the sort of like, multiverse kind of multiverse [01:01:47] Merlin: not wrong, Walter, you’re just an asshole. [01:01:49] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, I, when I say, um, that it feels almost warm to see my [01:01:57] Merlin: the fact, okay, but like here’s the thing about what you’re saying right [01:02:00] here. So let me find the one I was looking at a minute ago in your, this, this playlist, the glossary. Okay, so it did a pretty good job of finding 266 That’s individual monads of thing that we talked about in this show. Turned it into a table, said what kind of category it was, and it even defined it. [01:02:18] Merlin: Let me go look down here. Oh, geez. Boy, well, that’s a shame. Look at line 43. [01:02:24] Jeff: Wait, I’m not in it. What’s [01:02:25] Merlin: Oh, it’s okay. It’s just a bummer. It says, Buy Thomas Harris, instead of [01:02:30] Jeff: mean, [01:02:32] Merlin: Thomas Harris is the, I mean, I know this. Like, I, like, unlike ChatGPT, I know this. Thomas Harris, you know, wrote the Hannibal Lecter novels. But, what a shame. [01:02:42] Merlin: And it’s even in the wrong order. It’s between Buzz Osborne and Carl Hyasson. What a shame. [01:02:50] Jeff: it was good to leave some of that. I should say, I made it add [01:02:54] Merlin: But it knows what Columbia House is! This is fucking insane that it can do this! [01:02:59] Jeff: Oh, it’s completely [01:03:00] insane. Yeah. And that’s, so that’s it. Like, and I look at that and if somebody said, would you like to listen to 90 minute conversation in which all these things are mentioned? I’m like, you know what, maybe [01:03:09] Merlin: Well, when you put it that way, it sounds bad. [01:03:13] Jeff: Amazing. So, yeah, that’s a, that’s just a way of, I like that a lot. [01:03:18] Jeff: I mean, I’m whole, so okay, do you remember the Beastie Boys magazine Grand Royal? [01:03:22] Merlin: Mm hmm. I, I posted, I just, I just found a copy in, [01:03:28] Jeff: you posted about Grand Royal. [01:03:29] Merlin: yeah, it’s the one with, um, Scratch Perry on the cover. It looks like a Wheaties box. [01:03:34] Jeff: Yep, I [01:03:35] Merlin: it’s the, it’s the one where, um, Rad Rock goes to the Guitar Tech, Institute of Technology with the Mullet Wick. [01:03:42] Jeff: So okay, so that’s a great example. I have the I have three of the episode. I think the first three [01:03:47] Merlin: Mine’s still got the decal for a shirt in it, and I’m thinking about making a [01:03:51] Jeff: doesn’t. Mine doesn’t. One of them has a record in it. Um, [01:03:54] Merlin: it came with the FlexiDisc in one of them, I [01:03:56] Jeff: a [01:03:57] Merlin: Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, Grand Royal, great. Spike Jonze, Spike Jonze [01:04:00] and Beastie Boys, Manor Magazine. [01:04:01] Jeff: this was a magazine that it’s no surprise you and I both hold dear, because it is exactly the kind of collection of the world that is all over the map, is so dense, and somehow Despite all that, it might really, really overwhelm a lot of people. [01:04:19] Jeff: But when I hold these, I’m holding all three now, I grabbed them last night, actually. When I hold all three of these, I feel like I’m holding a whole world. And if I wanted to just go into somebody’s world, it’s, it’s like a novel, practically, right? But it’s also a doorways to a thousand other worlds. And as much as I am always on the watch, in me, for my gathering instinct. [01:04:44] Jeff: Um, my gathering instinct is also a core piece of who I am, and my whole life has been figuring out how to harness it in a way that it doesn’t, it doesn’t sort [01:04:54] Merlin: I like that you’re saying gathering, the word we probably want to use is learning, but that would [01:05:00] put people off. So I like the way that you say gathering, but it’s like, I can’t learn enough new things. It’s just, I will never get sick of learning a new thing. [01:05:09] Jeff: Yes, and this, and this thing gives you an opportunity, just all by yourself, unless you choose to post about it, which I love to do, um, to just explore your world in the most fucked up ways. And sometimes, look, people say, well, but it’s wrong. Sometimes it’s wrong in really delightful ways that [01:05:25] Merlin: and sometimes, I [01:05:26] Jeff: weird [01:05:26] Merlin: is a This would actually be a useful podcast episode if we ever made one of those, but I think it could be argued that the errors are some of the most interesting things, or at least some of the most instructive things. At the very least, how do you not see an error and go like, wow, I wonder if that’s an error I could have helped with? [01:05:44] Jeff: Yeah, definitely. Or, or it’s the kind of thing, I had a friend, there was this amazing, he’s still around, Hiro Tanaka. He was a, he’s a Japanese guy who came to Minneapolis in the, in the early 90s, went to a Babes in Toyland show, met Lori, the drummer, she fell in love with him and had him stay, [01:06:00] fell in love, like, what a great human. [01:06:02] Jeff: And he went on tour with them. And for the next 10 years of his life, he was almost always on tour with an American indie rock band. And, and he went on tour with My band, he would just get in a van with people and he was always learning English with a notebook in his hand. And fun fact, my brother owns a bar in Brooklyn and the bathroom walls are papered with the pages of his book. [01:06:23] Merlin: That’s so cool. [01:06:24] Jeff: and, and you now imagine Merlin, he’s learning [01:06:27] Merlin: Boy, that must feel like a really insane place to urinate. [01:06:30] Jeff: he’s learning in English [01:06:32] Merlin: Oh my [01:06:32] Jeff: band vans in band vans So one day he comes to visit me. I remember he was on tour with with the Selby [01:06:40] Merlin: in the bottle. [01:06:40] Jeff: Yeah, he was on he was on tour with the Selby Tigers It’s a great band from Minneapolis and I was living in Chicago and they were staying overnight and I was in this kind of shitty neighborhood in Chicago and he and I were sitting outside in front of my house talking and in the like brown, weedy grass stuff, a mushroom was coming up and he looks at it and he goes, Oh, [01:07:00] ghetto mushroom. [01:07:03] Merlin: Oh my [01:07:04] Jeff: And that is exactly the kind of shit that can happen in ChatGPT where it’s like, that is a delightful mistake. [01:07:10] Merlin: Oh, I totally agree. An example, uh, I, I used before, there was one where, okay, and this, this goes back to, I’ll make this quick, but, um, okay, so you know what, actually, this is also, if I may say, a good example of your, one of your original questions, which is what is it that makes this so well suited for you, or you so well suited for it? [01:07:28] Merlin: And I had mentioned lateral thinking. So how did this start? It started off, this is just how my stupid fucking brain works. I think it started off as I wanted, I’ve got these, it starts out so boring, but it gets so good. I’ve got, um, what are called Nanoleaf lights. Most people, if you’ve ever seen those hexagons in douchey YouTube videos, but they do all kinds of lights. [01:07:46] Merlin: And, but the connectors for these things are garbage. Like so many of those kinds of like where you get the little belt with the connectors and you can cut them to fit and like light strips. And my light strips would always pull out. of the dingus that connects them to the electric. Long story [01:08:00] short, I basically just gone in and said like, what are some of my options for dealing with this? [01:08:04] Merlin: And I’m like, well, you could do this or blah, blah, blah. And I said, Hmm, I said, act like you’re somebody who’s very knowledgeable about HomeKit things, about home automation, and You’re somebody who does DIY stuff and isn’t allowed to avoid the warranty a little bit, something like that. Boom! It drops all this great stuff, all this crazy stuff, which is not dangerous, but one of the things was you can just hot glue it. [01:08:29] Merlin: And I’m like, fuck, of course, I can just hot glue it, that’s really easy. But then I said, okay, well now, give me a Caravaggio painting. And in the style of, of this, give me a Caravaggio painting of, of people. I said, no, first I said, now, now give it, now explain what you just said to me, but do it in a hundred words and in the voice of a 1930s hobo who refers to himself in the third person as Cletus. [01:08:52] Merlin: And it’s, and it actually did that. And it goes, Oh, Cletus got a hot tip for you. Got to be real here. You got to get that glue nice and hot. But old Cletus knows that. And I [01:09:00] was like, now make a Caravaggio painting of people. Cletus, Demonstrating this to other hobos, who are, and one of the hobos, at least one of the other hobos is eating beans out of a can. [01:09:08] Merlin: You’re with me so far. Who the fuck [01:09:09] Jeff: I [01:09:09] Merlin: this way? Raises his hand, and you, but you know, it was hilarious, it was fucking great, it did like a pretty passable fake Caravaggio, but what’s great is there was a big pile of beans on the floor, and a can next to it that said Nanoleaf. And, like, if that doesn’t make you happy, I guess that’s okay, but I was like, I mean, like, the dumbest part that I could say from all this, well, that just teaches me a little more about, like, how to ask for things. [01:09:34] Merlin: Cause I asked for beans, and it gave me beans, and it gave me a can, the can said Nanoleaf on it, because that’s what Cletus was showing people how to do with a hot glue gun. I’ll send you [01:09:42] Jeff: Yes, yes. Oh, that’s [01:09:44] Merlin: like that, okay, now that’s a pretty good example of almost all of those things. And, and, and like so many of my examples, it’ll be useless because people will go, that’s silly, I’m a normal person, why would I ever do bullshit like that? [01:09:54] Merlin: Why do you, why did you play with anything when you were a kid? Why did you ever imagine that you’re somebody whom [01:10:00] you’re not? Why did you ever imagine a world that doesn’t currently exist? I mean, I mean, I’m gonna get all bummed out. Fucking Bobby Kennedy on your ass, but Jesus Christ, like, is there nothing that you can see in that beyond the dangers that other people have told you about? [01:10:13] Merlin: I [01:10:13] Jeff: right, right. Exactly. Yeah. What about, so that’s a great example of a practical use. The other day I, I, I, [01:10:20] Merlin: know if it’s practical [01:10:22] Jeff: That’s it. No, it is. It’s [01:10:23] Merlin: definitely lateral. [01:10:24] Jeff: practical. And then becomes Cletus, which [01:10:26] Merlin: I get to show off the fact that I enjoy Caravaggio. [01:10:30] Jeff: I, um, so I restore old tools, uh, large and, and [01:10:35] Merlin: You’re an old tool. [01:10:37] Jeff: I’m an old tool. Um, and, [01:10:39] Merlin: You know, like one of those YouTubers? [01:10:41] Jeff: yeah, like one of those [01:10:42] Merlin: Like you’ll turn a cheese board into like a modern thing or make a pinball [01:10:46] Jeff: No, no, it’s, it’s more like, it’s the [01:10:48] Merlin: Restoring like an old hammer or [01:10:50] Jeff: see a picture of a terribly rusty power tool, uh, from the forties, [01:10:54] Merlin: love it. [01:10:55] Jeff: You know, and then you, so I, over the summer, I experimented, we talked just a little bit about this. [01:10:59] Jeff: I [01:11:00] experimented with rust removal, just all these different ways of rust removal. And I realized [01:11:04] Merlin: Now you’re speaking my love [01:11:06] Jeff: was holding all this shit in my head. And so I went to ChatGPT and I, and I said, help me create a decision tree for rust removal strategies because I realized I was, I was coming, sometimes I was, I was kind of jumping a little too [01:11:20] Merlin: But notice what you did. I’m sorry to interrupt, but you didn’t, you didn’t say, How do I use this remover? Or like, Find the ba ba ba ba Coke machine. Right? [01:11:30] Jeff: Yeah, [01:11:31] Merlin: I want to show me the work. [01:11:32] Jeff: yeah, exactly. Exactly. And and that’s interesting, too, because it is weird to jump like yesterday I was working I have this like one ton hundred year old lathe metal machining lathe that I’m rebuilding. [01:11:43] Merlin: So you can do woodturning? [01:11:45] Jeff: This is metal turning, which is even more insane. [01:11:49] Merlin: I’m gonna make one of those vases out of colored pencils. [01:11:51] Jeff: Oh, yeah. Oh, I saw you posted that. I love [01:11:53] Merlin: such an upsetting [01:11:55] Jeff: love them. I love them so much. [01:11:57] Merlin: put a root on this thing and now it’s turning. [01:12:00] Anyways, you’ve [01:12:00] Jeff: So I’m in there. I when I’m in that world in my workshop, like I, I’m not particularly drawn to my phone or my computers, because I’ve got like grease from the Coolidge administration on my hands, right? But like, actually, [01:12:14] Merlin: It’s like it’s just a way to disappear from the world. [01:12:16] Jeff: It’s a way to disappear from the world, but actually I’ve started more and more going to it to say, okay, I’ve got gear oil. [01:12:22] Jeff: Uh, what, what should not have gear oil on it? Right? Like, it’s just like shit like that, where if I was going to the forums, I would have to go through a bunch of like, why the fuck are you even looking at gear oil? Right? Like, do you even have gloves? [01:12:33] Merlin: would be an automated post that says, have you checked the FAQs? But no, absolutely, because if you treat, again, if you treat it like a Coke machine, you might be, and this is a concept I learned from John Siracusa, please put it in notes, the XY problem, where what you really, you really want Y. [01:12:48] Merlin: But you ask people for X. So like, you ask for some really complicated technical explanation for how to do something because you’re smarter than the average bear, when the real answer is just unplug it and plug it back in. Like, what is it that you [01:13:00] really want? I mean, there’s that famous story about like, you know, why do you buy a drill? [01:13:06] Merlin: You buy a drill because it puts a screw in the wall. Why do you want a screw in the wall? So I can hang up a painting. Why do you want to hang up a painting? Because looking at a painting makes me happy. So in some ways you bought a drill because you want to be happy, you just don’t know it yet. [01:13:18] Jeff: Yes. [01:13:19] Merlin: like, if you, if you think that that is an overly circuitous and not useful way to think about life, you’re probably fairly unhappy a lot of the time. [01:13:27] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [01:13:28] Merlin: Right and that’s that’s isn’t that kind of what you’re doing here though? It’s like hey You know I got this Leatherman that can do all these different things and sometimes I can even use the Leatherman for the wrong thing and sometimes That’s kind of cool. [01:13:39] Jeff: Yep. Sometimes it’s kinda cool. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Um. [01:13:45] Merlin: How are we on time? [01:13:47] Jeff: We’re good. Well, we’re at 113 for this round. I [01:13:50] Merlin: Oh, we should we should probably bounce pretty soon, right? [01:13:52] Jeff: an hour 13. Yeah, we should bounce. I have a final topic for you. Which, which sort of comes sort of [01:14:00] related to what I was saying about feeding all of my kind of life information and asking it [01:14:03] Merlin: Oh, I would love to talk about this. [01:14:06] Jeff: So, [01:14:06] Merlin: my god Well, the the memory stuff is so great, but I filled my people, people, can we assume people know what we’re talking about? [01:14:13] Jeff: well, I don’t know. Oh, the Wisdom Project. This is where [01:14:16] Merlin: So, no, no, no, sorry, sorry, sorry, I’d love to talk about that too, always, but, no, but like, there was an introduction to something a few months ago that’s been really a game changer for me, that could be more of a game changer, with fewer constraints, but there’s a thing called memory, where you go in and say something as simple as, my name is Merlin, I live in San Francisco, and what that means is, from now on, in future threads, it’ll remember what you told it about yourself. [01:14:39] Merlin: You know, you can probably imagine all the ways this is useful. A second one might be, I really prefer Markdown. So when you give me stuff, give it to me as Markdown. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But like, I I, I put in all the information about my family, where they were born, all that kind of stuff. And then, and it was working great. [01:14:57] Merlin: And again, remember this works across threads. [01:14:59] Jeff: [01:15:00] Yeah. [01:15:00] Merlin: So this is really powerful. But then, you know what I started doing, entering all kinds of, I started taking photos of things like, you know, the information panel on my Synology or my AeroGarden. Upload that. Remember this is an AeroGarden called BigGarden. This is an AeroGarden called OldGarden. [01:15:14] Merlin: Now remember that on this day I changed the water and added plant food. Remember, remember, remember all this stuff. And I was. It was fucking incredible. I would put my entire life into this thing if I could, but after a week or so, it said meh, your memory’s full. So I had to start deleting stuff. But what you’re describing, once you start dipping a toe into that, you think shit’s integrated now, just you wait until it actually knows what your life is like. [01:15:39] Jeff: Yeah, it’s funny. I have not ever used that memory function. I mean, I [01:15:43] Merlin: Have you ever seen updating memory, where it goes, like, you say something, maybe, for example, with your tickets, I would bet you Dimes the Donuts that it says updating memory because it’s remembering that you were at that replacement show or whatever. [01:15:55] Jeff: So it’s, so you’re saying this memory function, which somehow I don’t, I’m not even aware of is something that[01:16:00] [01:16:00] Merlin: Do you have it open right now? [01:16:01] Jeff: Yeah, I have ChatGPT [01:16:02] Merlin: Okay, uh, you have the app on your Mac? [01:16:04] Jeff: Ah, yes, I [01:16:05] Merlin: Okay, command, comma, and go down to personalization. [01:16:10] Jeff: Mm hmm. Is this like what you did for Joe Walsh? Oh, that was in the, that was in the part of the recording that got, but we’re just [01:16:17] Merlin: the last year of Rocky Mountain away. Um, if you look under manage memory, you’ll see all the things that it remembers about you. [01:16:23] Jeff: Oh shit. [01:16:25] Merlin: So my first one is, uh, [01:16:28] Jeff: It’s using Hover as their domain registrar. Okay. You can let that [01:16:31] Merlin: about my mom. Merlin is feeling kind of tired today. And remember, Merlin prefers shorter responses. Here’s where Madeline was born. Merlin’s son, Billy, is a little reluctant and doesn’t like technology. That’s because I stuck the phone in Billy’s face with advanced voice mode on. And I said, Oh, don’t worry about Billy. [01:16:48] Merlin: He’s just a little reluctant. It doesn’t like technology. Well, it remembered that. imagine this filled with, Oh, here’s my two synologies. Here’s what the serial number is. Imagine that, you know, that, that, that, that folder I’ve got on [01:17:00] iCloud with hundreds or dozens of manuals. How far away are we from me just dropping that or not even needing to drop that in? [01:17:08] Merlin: Like, you know what I’m saying? Like, but this, having it remember all of these different things is ridiculously, I haven’t remembered my. Again, think about my garden, or think about my 3D printer, or you could think about your automobile. If you’re an automobile person. When did I buy this automobile, how many miles are on it, when’s the last time I was checking it? [01:17:25] Merlin: Like, this is the dream. It’s like, in the same way that I have this dream for this bike log idea for Apple products, I also have this dream over here of like, I just want to like, start talking and have it remember and integrate things, have it be my outboard brain, and if all that information about your, not even your quote, your life, but like, have you ever wanted to make a timeline? [01:17:45] Merlin: I’ve always wanted to make a Full Timeline of my life in Excel. Where I lived, for how long, who my housemates were, like, when did that person leave and get replaced by this one? Like, I don’t know why, that’s just something I’ve [01:17:56] Jeff: I have, I have a spreadsheet. I’ve lived in 38 places[01:18:00] [01:18:00] Merlin: when I was in college, I would move four times a year in [01:18:02] Jeff: Every, every single place I lived, who I lived with, if it was my mom, she had a friend [01:18:06] Merlin: And don’t you want to kind of see that? Now, [01:18:08] Jeff: Oh, [01:18:08] Merlin: system where that all just gets remembered, and it says, oh, this is kind of like that thing Richard said one time. And you’re like, [01:18:13] Jeff: Oh, you were in Chicago at this point, [01:18:15] Merlin: Right, but that, that memory part, and it sounds like you were not expressly aware of it. And by the way, this will don’t, so use this in 4. [01:18:22] Merlin: 0. Not in the new one. The new one does not do well with [01:18:26] Jeff: add things myself, [01:18:28] Merlin: hell yeah. Here, try this. Just open a new 4. 0, right? Like an old one. Um, and just say, remember that my favorite fruit is apples, or whatever. You can also add them manually in those lines, but that’s the easiest way. It’s just as you’re going. [01:18:44] Merlin: Or like, remember I changed the water in this thing today. [01:18:47] Jeff: Okay. Okay. Got it. Yeah. [01:18:50] Merlin: And now, now, now, why is that useful? Well, that. That’s it. So I, when I was doing that dumb demos of the worst, and I say, I go up to Madeline and I’m like, uh, can I introduce you to my wife, Madeline? And she [01:19:00] goes, oh, hi Madeline. Nice to meet you. And she’s like, what are you doing? Can you go? And I said, I said, uh, where was Madeline born? And she goes, Madeline was born in Providence, Rhode Island. And it’s like, she’s like, get that away from, get [01:19:10] Jeff: Wow. [01:19:10] Merlin: from me. [01:19:12] Jeff: Okay. Hold on. Let me just, there’s, there’s three bits in my memory that are cracking me up and I want to, I want to bring them out. So I had at one point asked it to make me a playlist based on whoever was the centerfold of Circus Magazine, uh, between a certain date and a certain date, [01:19:27] Merlin: Oh my, that’s already [01:19:29] Jeff: So. So this says, it is interested in creating playlists based on specific themes in historical context, such as magazine centerfolds for a [01:19:37] Merlin: Oh no, [01:19:38] Jeff: Almost, almost, almost. [01:19:40] Merlin: tweet. [01:19:41] Jeff: And then I’ve got is using vinegar and salt to derust tools and then soaking them in baking soda and water, drying, wire brushing and applying WD 40. [01:19:48] Jeff: And then I’ve got has traveled to Iraq on multiple occasions, [01:19:51] Merlin: Oh, that is so funny. This is all memory stuff. Oh my god. Let me look at mine. Merlin has an X1C printer. Merlin’s [01:20:00] tomatoes in his AeroGarden are a few inches tall. What it doesn’t say right here is that it remembers when you said that. Merlin has a special edition, The Hardest Job in the World pencil, which is a collaboration between Palomino Blackwing and CBS’s John Dickerson. Thanks, buddy! Merlin uses the app Drafts for macOS and iOS. Merlin is interested in trying different It’s so When you read it this way, it does sound kind of insane. [01:20:27] Jeff: It does. I mean, and there’s also [01:20:28] Merlin: It remembers which Milwaukee drill I have. [01:20:31] Jeff: it’s great. That’s great. Then there’s kind of stuff that seemed that’s very sort of passing, like is customizing their zprofile to include specific manpager setting that uses BAT [01:20:41] Merlin: Merlin is researching Ray Davies wife. [01:20:44] Jeff: What if the entire podcast was just just taking turns reading this [01:20:47] Merlin: It would be called a show with John Siracusa. [01:20:50] Jeff: Oh, [01:20:51] Merlin: Anyway, let me tell you the joke in four bullets. [01:20:57] Jeff: okay, let me before we are done. [01:20:59] Merlin: Merlin set up the [01:21:00] birdhouse yesterday. I wanted to see [01:21:04] Jeff: is yesterday? [01:21:06] Merlin: well, it knows, but I wanted to find out, like, I, I have another, see, these are all such disparate little scraps of paper. I have a calendar called journal. A calendar called journal where I just write down when something happened. So I changed my medication on this day, I installed the new X on this day, and if it’s stuff where like, you know, sometimes it’s stuff where it goes either under journal or environment are my two calendars. [01:21:26] Merlin: And one is like, hey, it’s been six months, change the filters in the um, in the air dingus. But why do I need that in 60 different places? And do I really want Apple to be the arbiter of all that? Couldn’t there be some kind of standardized XML style, JSON style thing where like, all my stuff just goes into a thing and then it just all learns from me? [01:21:44] Merlin: It doesn’t seem like that much to ask. They have a universal [01:21:46] Jeff: system? Do you have a oh, system, system. Do you have a system for archiving your chats, or even just like a [01:21:53] Merlin: No, it’s a huge, it’s a huge amount of my memory. [01:21:56] Jeff: thing for [01:21:57] Merlin: I get a periodic, like, when I’m downloading. And [01:22:00] some open source materials. And it’ll say like, and Downey will say like, you have 116 gigs left. I’m like, [01:22:06] Jeff: Yeah. [01:22:07] Merlin: So I go and I go to Daisy disk or I sort by, you know, whatever. And I go and I go, and it’s always my directory, my tilde slash application support slash, Wait, sorry, slash library, slash application, slash, like, MESSAGES. [01:22:21] Merlin: Whoa. Cause I keep the attachments too! I need [01:22:24] Jeff: Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. You need it for [01:22:25] Merlin: No, I should, I should do that. If I lost it, it would be fine. But it’s just a weird PAC GRAD compulsion I have. [01:22:32] Jeff: I’ve started doing this thing where if it’s something I want to remember, actually, the last thing I ask in the thread is summarize succinctly in a bulleted list, what I have asked of you in this thing. And I have a notes file where it’s just like the, the link to that chat. And then that [01:22:47] Merlin: You’re kidding me! I, I sometimes will also do it to, sometimes I, occasionally I’ve done this to cheat, but more often just cause it’s, it’s like we’ll go through a whole long thing and I’ll be like, uh, give me a 100 word prompt for how I would ask [01:23:00] for this. Again, or something. Like, like when it’s being a dick about like, I can’t make you a Caravaggio painting, or like, I can’t make a David Hockney painting, or whatever, and you’re like, describe the work of David Hockney. [01:23:10] Merlin: There’s David Hockney, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I just copy and paste that, take out the first part of the sentence, and drop it in, and it’ll give me what I want. [01:23:16] Jeff: yes, yes. Right, right. [01:23:19] Merlin: by obscurity, or lessons by sessions, or something. I don’t know. Who needs a name? Sorry. [01:23:26] Jeff: Um, [01:23:26] Merlin: you know, though! Now you know about memory! [01:23:28] Merlin: But like I say, I don’t know if you understood what I said, but I don’t think it’s working with oh one preview. So try it with 4.0 4.0 and all the other ones and you’ll be fine. [01:23:37] Jeff: Okay, sounds good. [01:23:38] Merlin: ’cause like you can’t, you also can’t upload images to oh [01:23:40] Jeff: No, it’s just driving me [01:23:42] Merlin: it won’t make you 3D prints. It’s got a weird knowledge [01:23:45] Jeff: I, I promise, this is the last thing I’ll say, and then I want to ask you about the Wisdom Project, very specific question, I want to, um, but I am, so I’m going to the UN archives in November, I’m spending like a week there, because [01:23:58] Merlin: As in the United Nations. [01:23:59] Jeff: I [01:24:00] have this project I’ve been doing for 10 years on and off where I’m, [01:24:03] Merlin: You should read the power broker on the plane. He had a big role in, [01:24:06] Jeff: give it a shot [01:24:07] Merlin: wouldn’t really even have West Side story if it, if it wasn’t for Robert Moses. [01:24:10] Jeff: oh my God, I just, sorry, this is [01:24:12] Merlin: Talk about, no, that’s lateral. That’s lateral. Realizing the West Side Story is a movie about Robert [01:24:17] Jeff: And, and I’m going to continue this, uh, and you’ll see why in a second. So I went, hold on, now you got, so you fucking got me trapped in a net. Uh, I grabbed, I grabbed a, uh, issue of Punk Planet, uh, that we did, um, in 2005 about podcasting called The End of Radio and, um, and I opened it up. [01:24:35] Jeff: This is, I’m going from the power broker [01:24:36] Merlin: yeah, yeah. [01:24:37] Jeff: Uh, I wrote sort of the main feature line, then we had a bunch of interviews. Who does the interview with something called Neighborhood Public Radio? Fucking Roman Mars. Just like 2005 in a, in a feature package about what the fuck is this new thing that we [01:24:51] Merlin: Was he living in, oh, was he in Oakland at the time? I didn’t, I don’t think of him as a punk rock guy. [01:24:56] Jeff: he was in Chicago and he wrote with, he wrote for Punk Planet here and [01:24:59] Merlin: [01:25:00] You’re kidding me. [01:25:00] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. And, but [01:25:02] Merlin: you listened to that podcast yet? [01:25:03] Jeff: Oh my God. I can’t. You know what my problem is Merlin? Is that I’ve been wanting to read The Power Broker forever and I cannot [01:25:09] Merlin: There’s only one chapter in the book where you should stop and read the chapter, and it’s a late episode. Well, there are people that I know who would disagree. [01:25:16] Jeff: Yeah. [01:25:17] Merlin: But there’s, there’s one called R. M. late in the book where it’s worth, because it’s the most, they, they both say, and other people agree, it’s the pivotal chapter in the book. [01:25:25] Merlin: It’s like in the 30s. It’s a very late chapter. That’s so cool! I have a photo of me with Roman Mars. [01:25:30] Jeff: That’s [01:25:31] Merlin: I met him at, I was a, oh my god, I’m not even gonna say it because people will look it up. I was a guest on Political Gab Fest once and it went [01:25:39] Jeff: I know you were. I [01:25:40] Merlin: I did some, but I wasn’t, it’s not my, it’s not [01:25:41] Jeff: was the, it was the, was it, it wasn’t a conundrum show. [01:25:44] Merlin: No, it was a live show [01:25:46] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:25:47] Merlin: friend asked me to be on and I met them and I didn’t do very well. Here’s a picture of me and Roman Mars, I’ll send you that. [01:25:54] Jeff: Sounds good. Um, [01:25:55] Merlin: We both, it’s so funny, my kid has identified a type. This really, really came to the [01:26:00] fore when my kid and I went to see The Flophouse a few months ago live. [01:26:03] Merlin: And there’s a line for question askers to, like, come up and, you know, ask a question. And Billy’s, like, just, because we, we got really good tickets. We got in the front row and, um, we were, like, right by Dan. It was exciting. And, um, in the shadow of Dan. But Billy looks at the line of people waiting to ask a question to the Flophouse podcast people and he goes, every one of those people looks like one of your friends. And I said, I said, that’s what they all look like. I said, Billy, I bet every one of those people has a podcast. Hey. Because we, we are, we are a type. [01:26:36] Jeff: Oh yeah, completely. [01:26:37] Merlin: I just send you my stuff, text me, so I can talk to you like a person. Anyways, um, before we get to the wisdom document, you’re going to the UN. [01:26:46] Jeff: I’m going, thank you. I have been working on a project on and off, uh, which is basically telling the story of a single day in Gaza in 1956 after the Israelis had invaded and occupied it in order to clear out [01:27:00] the fedayeen that were living among the, it’s a very familiar, Story. Um, but for reasons I won’t get into here at this point, uh, I am focused on this specific day. [01:27:09] Jeff: I’m looking for a specific list of the dead, and I have identified sort of a chain of possession, um, and have identified kind of the 25 boxes that might have this at the UN Archives, right? Um, but I also [01:27:23] Merlin: this is exciting. [01:27:24] Jeff: But I also had found, um, reference to these documents that are like verbatim minutes that are really relevant to what I was trying to do among the Secretary General and a few other people in 1956. [01:27:35] Jeff: And so when the archives sent them to me, I opened them up, and the words, the words [01:27:40] Merlin: Who’s the Secretary General in 56? Is that Dag Hammershulge? [01:27:44] Jeff: yeah, [01:27:45] Merlin: was the guy forever, right? [01:27:46] Jeff: oh, yeah, Forever, good guy, uh, I mean, I, you know, I never met him. Uh, but, so, okay, so, the, the, this very important, like, previously strictly confidential verbatim meeting notes from 1956 I think are very important to what I’m [01:28:00] doing, but the, the text is so fuzzy that I can’t read it. [01:28:03] Jeff: I write back, I’m like, is there any chance you have some better, no, that’s all we have, and I couldn’t do it. But I put it in, I tried to OCR [01:28:09] Merlin: this like that Dell commercial with the [01:28:12] Jeff: So I took, I don’t know what that is, but I took a [01:28:14] Merlin: Was it able to figure it out for you? [01:28:16] Jeff: took a screenshot, I put it into ChatGPT, I said transcribe this for me, and it was perfect because I could then go back and kind of [01:28:23] Merlin: Isn’t that awesome and upsetting at the same time? [01:28:26] Jeff: And so now this invisible [01:28:28] Merlin: It’s better than you, Jeff. It’s better than [01:28:30] Jeff: Or better than me, it’s way better than me. I mean, that’s [01:28:32] Merlin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s just something you live with, yeah. [01:28:34] Jeff: to me all the [01:28:35] Merlin: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. [01:28:36] The Wisdom Project [01:28:36] Jeff: All right, Wisdom Project. So give me the, just for the listeners, describe the Wisdom Project as briefly as you want. [01:28:45] Merlin: Well, with some projects, uh, um, the way I remember it, and this may not be right, I’m so glad the train’s back, it started out as a challenge on Dubai Friday, which was to use, um, what’s that app? Alex’s Gay Bones for Obsidian. It might have started with that, to use the Obsidian app, and it’s a text based app, [01:29:00] and it’s really cool. [01:29:00] Merlin: But anyway, I, and, and, and. I don’t know. And I’m going, I’m going something with Alex and me. Um, I really, I’m very into the buildings and Alex is obsessed with the scaffolding. Sometimes I’m not sure what Alex makes with all of their tools, but I’m very into the what you can make with it stuff. That’s my, I really love, I mean I like the stuff too, but I was like, Oh actually this kind of dovetails with an idea I’ve had for a while, which is like, to start writing down, The point is, the Wisdom Project is to write down, uh, stuff it took me too long to learn in life that I would consider good advice that is just hard one and the part that gets missed in this is it’s not me necessarily haranguing strangers about how to act, it’s more of like, here’s stuff it took me too long to realize, sometimes very painfully, um, and it’s, uh, you know, just a bunch of those, like 500 some bullets, um, And then, you know, part of the reason it continues to be successful for me is that I’ve never tried to do anything with it. [01:29:57] Merlin: I, I’ve only ever just added a new bullet [01:30:00] and the occasional horizontal rule for visual interest. But, uh, you know, I’ll sometimes tweak previous things. I’ll add more bullets to the beginning. I’ll work on, but like I deliberately have avoided turning it into anything because I love that it’s, it’s just a, now it’s a repo. [01:30:15] Merlin: For the longest time, the problem is with a repo you can turn off comments, you can’t turn off comments on a, on a gist, so I had to make it a repo. Actually, you may not be aware, the bowling balls were actually invented in Shut up, shut [01:30:26] Jeff: Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:30:27] Merlin: So anyway, and that’s what I do, and so, um, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s done as it is, the whole idea was just to like, have that be a thing, and, um, that’s the wisdom, I’m very proud of it. [01:30:35] Merlin: Um, because I can like, you know, it’s like St. Crispin’s Day, which is around this time of year. I can strip my sleeve and show my scars and say that I was there that fought upon St. Crispin’s Day. These are all the things that were, these are a lot of the things that were difficult for me. It’s a fun writing exercise. [01:30:49] Merlin: I love to write. I love to write in this style and um, I like wordplay and so it’s one of those things where you could, it could be just a bathroom book. It could be, it’s pretty deep in a lot of [01:31:00] ways if you actually read it though. [01:31:01] Jeff: Well, and that’s, okay. So that gets me to my question about it. So I’ve, I’ve listened to you on your podcast for a very, very long time. And, and I know that this kind of warmth and, and, and wisdom and thoughtfulness is something that arises in all of those podcasts. I have observed, maybe with the exception of Back to Work, that, and I hope it’s okay for me to say this. [01:31:22] Jeff: I have observed that there, there are times in some of those other podcasts, less so with Alex I would say, where when you get into the mode that is represented by the Wisdom Project, you can kind of ricochet off of it quickly. Um, no one is interested in this, I don’t, you know, that kind of thing, right? [01:31:37] Jeff: Which is all fine, [01:31:38] Merlin: It’s a it’s a lot to ask of [01:31:39] Jeff: you’re in these, [01:31:40] Merlin: It really is It’s a lot to ask people to even like even consider like looking at it And also it’s just like this is this is such a thing where a guy gets old and then has a vanity press book A memoir or something and it’s like but the thing is I I don’t know. [01:31:55] Merlin: I I yeah, I do bounce off it pretty fast I’m not embarrassed of it. I’m deeply proud of [01:32:00] it It’s just I can’t find people who are as into that stuff as I [01:32:02] Jeff: no, I think you’re [01:32:03] Merlin: but it won’t stop me [01:32:04] Jeff: the sense it’s context. So here’s, here’s what I, I loved so much when this came out was that this is a part of you I love when you go into this in any podcast, I’m always that [01:32:15] Merlin: You mean like when I’m when I’m when I’m nice and I’m sincere and I’m [01:32:18] Jeff: no, I love it all, [01:32:19] Merlin: how I actually am in life? [01:32:21] Jeff: No, I love it all. [01:32:22] Jeff: Um, but the point [01:32:23] Merlin: sound, fart sound. [01:32:24] Jeff: Not knowing you, I, when I read that, I thought, this is interesting. Something, something worked for Merlin that Merlin felt like he could not only do this thing, but call it the Wisdom Project and, and, and live with it and live around it, talk about it, reference it all the time, which I think is really amazing. [01:32:43] Jeff: And I’m curious, and I hope I’m not being presumptuous, but when I use the example of having ChatGPT say back to me things that I kind of wasn’t allowing myself to do. to like acknowledge out loud. I’m wondering if there was something in you that had to [01:33:00] change or that at some moment where you’re like, I can do this. [01:33:02] Jeff: And here it is. And I’m going to say it. I’m going to say Wisdom Project all the time, right? Like or the document, which is how you refer to it sometimes. But was there something? Was there some [01:33:11] Merlin: a really good question. Yeah. I think it’s a I think it’s a It’s a great question for at least for me. It’s a great question that I could talk about quite a lot because There’s a, hmm, this is too big to talk about, but I think this might actually be a line in the document. Start acting like your life matters. [01:33:32] Merlin: Do you notice how I like, I really like snuck it in, like in the middle of something else? If I made that first, nobody would keep reading. [01:33:38] Jeff: right, right, right. [01:33:39] Merlin: The first, the first one is, uh, sometimes an email is just a way to say I love you. Because you can read that in several ways and most people will not fully understand because they, Have no time to think about these things. [01:33:50] Merlin: Sometimes an email is just a way to say I love you. Okay, cool. Thanks. What’s the next one? Okay, but like, did you ever really think about that? Like when you get annoyed in an email? Did you ever really think that maybe that’s somebody saying I love you, [01:34:00] just in a way you hadn’t expected? Oh, okay, whatever. [01:34:03] Merlin: Yeah, but like, did you really think about it? Because did you ever, did you ever think about how sometimes you write emails to people because you love them? And maybe there’s a different way you could choose. There’s so many ways you can look at, and to me anyway, the reason I found all these things so absorbing, it’s not my wisdom, it’s what the world had to fucking show me. [01:34:18] Merlin: I just made it into words that are readable for people who can fucking read. It’s, in some ways, it’s kind of like the culmination of anything like A Life’s Work that I’ve ever had, um, in, in a weird way, and it’s, it’s so close to who I would like to be that it gets difficult sometimes. [01:34:37] Jeff: Yeah. [01:34:38] Merlin: because it is very vulnerable, and it’s not, it’s not all just fart jokes. [01:34:41] Merlin: I mean, there’s some jokes in there. For people who can actually fucking read, you’ll see a couple references to I Think You Should Leave that most people wouldn’t notice. There’s several little things like that. You can use too small a [01:34:51] Jeff: No, I can’t drive! [01:34:53] Merlin: can’t drive! [01:34:55] Jeff: Not everybody can do everything! Sorry, sorry, [01:34:57] Merlin: you’ve got the mud pie, and then you use too small a slice.[01:35:00] [01:35:00] Jeff: sorry, go ahead. [01:35:01] Merlin: But, just, don’t, don’t touch the receipt! Um, no, but like, um, it takes, This is, boy, this is, Jeff, this is the most important moment in the entire history of podcasting for me, because it all comes together in this one thing. This is the chicken problem. This is the wisdom document. This is so many of these different fucking things where It can be very, the things, the things that make you who you think you are, the things that you treasure, all these different things, very difficult to talk about with people. [01:35:34] Merlin: It’s the ultimate kind of vulnerability in some ways. And but it also takes a lot of, um, you have to believe that your life is worth living on some level. I’m not, I don’t mean that as a pep talk or as a, like, cheerleading or anything. But like, you also, but like, and then the ultimate temerity is to say that the things that I think are worth writing down and the things I write down are worth editing. [01:35:56] Merlin: The things that I think are worth editing are worth collecting. [01:36:00] The things that I think are worth collecting are worth going back to and improving. The things that are worth improving are worth sharing. There’s this cascade of apparent self involvement that is instead the thing that I would wish upon every person, which is that you care very intensely about the things that matter a lot to you. [01:36:16] Merlin: And then you spend less time feeling distracted. By the things that you really know in your heart are not the good things in life and this, this, that could be that essay better that I read. That could be, there’s all kinds of different ways you can look at this, at least from my POV and the way that it’s received is something I’m touchy about because it’s a lot to say to somebody to like, oh yeah, that guy who just couldn’t be bothered to update his blog anymore is writing self-help again. [01:36:42] Merlin: It’s like, well, don’t. But I don’t mean it that way. The first bullet in the list is the true one that mustn’t be missed. I hope you read it as a fun, breezy thing that makes me sound like a confident person who’s read a lot of Kurt Vonnegut. I hope you enjoy that. I really super do. And there are some things in there where like, but like, the, what it took me to put those words [01:37:00] together in that order took so much more work. [01:37:03] Merlin: Personal effort, and it wasn’t personal effort this month, it wasn’t even that much personal effort last year, it was personal effort when I was 11 and couldn’t figure out why girls weren’t nicer to me. Like, I could place almost every single one of these things, from the most trivial, like, kind of like put your keys in a bowl shit, life hack stuff. [01:37:29] Merlin: All the way down to my favorite one, which is about what it means when you have a kid and the kid changes. That’s my favorite one on the list, which I will look for right now. But it’s um, I feel very vulnerable about it. I don’t, touchy’s the wrong word for it, but I, I do love it a lot. What I don’t apologize for is that the project exists and I love doing it, and that it will never be done. [01:37:50] Merlin: The whole point of this is that this be an ongoing thing. I mean if I only ever, if I never add another one, I mean, God, go, go get it. You can go make it in EPUB. It’s easy enough. Um, But, it [01:38:00] means a lot to me and I don’t really have a way to talk about that stuff because it’s not on brand for my usual stuff. [01:38:06] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Oh, it’s beautiful. I love it. And I, [01:38:09] Merlin: Do you? Well, what, what, what are the other ones you like? [01:38:13] Jeff: Oh my god, what are the ones I like? I’d have to pull it up. I’ve read them aloud to my wife at [01:38:17] Merlin: I think, I think it’s useful and there’s a thing I’ve always done when I’m editing. Or I don’t know, is there a better word than that when I’m rewriting, another way to put it, if you don’t like the word editing? Um, which is like I, I, [01:38:27] Jeff: word for me. [01:38:28] Merlin: Well, like when I record songs, I always listen all the way through, from the beginning to the end. [01:38:31] Merlin: Sometimes I’ll stop and go back, but I always end up going back to the beginning. Like, if, and this is why it really helps to like the things that you write. If you don’t like the things you write, you’re probably not going to become a very good writer, but you’ll get to walk around and go like, oh, of course, I never look at my own stuff. [01:38:44] Merlin: Well, wow, it must suck. I laugh at my own jokes all the time, that’s how I know they’re good. Can I read you my favorite one? [01:38:49] Jeff: Yep, [01:38:50] Merlin: Your kids are not little versions of you. They’re little versions of themselves. So don’t be sad or alarmed whenever they are becoming something different from you. Because they will become [01:39:00] lots of things that are different from you, and that’s arguably the whole point. [01:39:04] Merlin: It is inarguably a thing that you need to cheerfully celebrate and support. [01:39:08] Jeff: Oh, it’s [01:39:09] Merlin: Now, why did I say that? Because I grew up, everybody grew up, I think, implicitly believing that a little, every kid is a little version of their parents. Oh, that’s, that’s real deep, man. Yeah, but did you really fucking think about it? [01:39:22] Merlin: Did you ever think about how much shit you’ve had to carry around your entire life? Maybe not because of your parents, certainly because of your parents, but maybe just because of other people who had these expectations that you’re a little version of your parents. You have the same values with them. [01:39:33] Merlin: You have the same concerns, the same anxieties, the same aspirations. You’re a little version of your parents and you’re doing it wrong. What if you accepted from the beginning that a baby’s just a cute pre adult and it’s your job to get the fuck out of the way and help them become the person that they are? [01:39:51] Merlin: That they are, or the person that they need to become, or sometimes, admittedly, the person they need to not be anymore, and you need to help when you can, but you need to stay out of [01:40:00] the way, and one way of staying out of the way is to stop looking at them as little versions of you. Because do you want, are you a little version of your dad? [01:40:07] Merlin: Are you a little version of your mom? How do you feel about that? [01:40:09] Jeff: Yeah. [01:40:10] Merlin: It’s very inhumane, and like, I love that one though, because that’s one of the ones where like, there’s so many levels to that for me. Cause, no matter what the situation, kids are full of surprises. Some kids are full of more surprises than others. [01:40:23] Jeff: But [01:40:23] Merlin: And that’s the greatest thing in the world to me, I wouldn’t trade a single piece of it. And getting to the point where I could type that, rewrite it, and get it to where it’s my favorite one in here, represents a lot of progression from where I was in Cincinnati in say 1975. [01:40:36] Jeff: Yeah. [01:40:37] Merlin: It means a lot to me, Jeff. It honestly does. [01:40:39] Merlin: I have nowhere to discuss it, but it means a lot to me. [01:40:41] Jeff: Yeah, I know. That’s great. I love it. I’m scanning through it now and it’s just like, yeah, it’s, and I did wonder, I mean, how much time or how much it took to order it, [01:40:50] Merlin: That’s the beauty. Well, I very, sometimes I’ll change them because you can’t have two that are too close together. There’s some business, as we say in programming, some business logic to how I would want to turn this into something more [01:41:00] automatable. But if there’s anything that’s made this successful, it’s the fact that I have not been distracted by saying, I wonder if I should put this in Describener or, [01:41:08] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:41:10] Merlin: or, or SQLite or whatever. [01:41:12] Merlin: It’s like, if somebody else wants to build something that’ll turn this into like an EPUB, I mean, I’ve done, You can go look at the source code. If you go into the repo, you can find where I’ve had automation stuff inside of VS Code to generate EPUBs. But my near term goal is to have this generate an EPUB every time there’s an update so people could always get, but I don’t know how to do that and I don’t want to learn how to do that. [01:41:34] Merlin: I could learn to do that, but maybe this needs to go in the document, Jeff, is like the document exists because I stopped trying to do other shit with it. Which gets to you another point of wisdom, which is like, [01:41:44] Jeff: God, that’s its own. Yeah. [01:41:46] Merlin: do better. People tend to screw up their next thing because they’re not paying careful attention to their current thing. [01:41:52] Merlin: Yeah. Ask me how I know that, like how I’ve learned that 60 different ways and I still follow [01:42:00] shiny objects when I get to the difficult part of a project, unless I catch myself and I go, remember you wrote that thing down? You know how to do this once your party’s been seated. Always order a large pepperoni pizza for the table. [01:42:11] Jeff: John Roderick. [01:42:12] Merlin: Roderick. Sometimes [01:42:15] Jeff: piece of wisdom. Very practical. [01:42:17] Merlin: have a good run. I like this one. Throw out all shitty scissors. Bring [01:42:21] Jeff: Oh, I was just going to read that one to you. [01:42:23] Merlin: Well, what do you do? Well, right here, you might have heard this during this. This is a Japanese company called Kai, K A I. And they make, I learned about this from Marco, they’re the deadliest, sharpest scissors in the world, and you will, you will personally mangle every, you will destroy, with extreme prejudice, every other pair of scissors you’ve got. [01:42:41] Merlin: You only need one good pair. Um, let’s see, bring in your neighbor’s trash cans. Talk to your pets and remind them that they’re not so bad, considering. Close the door behind you. Except, always hold the door. Say, I thank you, and mean it. Try to fix more things than you break, and calm your mind. Everybody’s doing, people hate this one, everybody’s [01:43:00] doing the best they can each day, even though what they can do is rarely enough. [01:43:03] Jeff: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Well, it’s a great project, [01:43:07] Merlin: Thank you, man, and thank you, thank you for having me on your program. [01:43:09] Jeff: Thank you for doing this, Merlin. It’s been really fantastic. Goodbye, everybody. Get some sleep. [01:43:14] Let us break for a sponsor read. There are probably a hundred different ways to blog, and Pika is a fast, affordable, and elegant way to create your own place on the web. But why did the team build it when there are so many other options? Well, in the words of one of the creators, Barry Hess, Static site generators are too fiddly. [01:43:35] Cool platforms like micro. blog can be hard to grok. And building out a site template for platforms like Hugo just wasn’t of interest. So they built Pika to solve their own problem and made it something they could offer to the public as another option for easily creating your space on the web. So, if you want to start a blog quickly and easily, you have to check out Pika. [01:43:57] And I can say, I tested it, I think I said this the [01:44:00] last time we had Pika on as a sponsor. Thank you, Pika. And I think it took me like 15, 20 seconds from the time I got to the signup page to the time that I had a couple of words on a page with a URL that I could send to anybody I wanted. Pika makes it simple to start your own blog and take control of your place online. [01:44:21] Blogging is a way to connect with others over your thoughts, and you can be significantly more eloquent here on Pika than you can with snippets on social media or on podcasts, let’s face it. Pika helps you share your thoughts beautifully at your own online address. Here’s what you get. A blog complete with a guest book, a great writing experience and their beautiful editor, simple theme and customization tools, a site at yoursite. [01:44:49] pika. page, www. pika. org And if you upgrade to the Pro plan, you get unlimited posts, pages, and guestbook entries. You can bring your own domain, and you can [01:45:00] add your own analytics. Visit pika. page slash overtired and give Pika a try. And if you decide to upgrade to Pro, use the code overtired20 and get 20 percent off your first year. [01:45:13] That’s 20 percent off Pika’s already affordable price. Your new blog is just a few clicks away. Microsoft So that’s Pika. page, that’s P I K A by the way, Pika. page slash Overtired. It’s loads simpler than WordPress, Newshook, and way less expensive than Squarespace. In fact, your first 50 blog posts are free. [01:45:37] Boy, I barely get to 50 every time I start a blog. I have a graveyard of blogs. This is an awesome deal. And Pika is made by a team of six real people who care and who actually answer your questions when you email them. That’s pika. page, p i k a. page, slash Overtired, pika. page, slash Overtired. And use Overtired [01:46:00] 20 for 20 percent off your first year of the pro plan. [01:46:04] Thank you, Pika, for sponsoring Overtired. Very grateful. It’s a great service. And now back to my conversation with Merlin Mann.