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In the early days of Web 2.0, several pundits told us that traditional PR was dead, especially for startups, where founders would be better served by handling their own public relations. After some disasters, along with many founders finding themselves overwhelmed by the need to build their business and craft thought leadership pieces while handling media inquiries, that philosophy faded. But now it’s back, and getting a lot of attention as Lulu Cheng Meservey, founder and CEO at the agency Rostra, has released a manifesto calling on leaders to skip the agency and “go direct.” Neville and Shel share their thoughts about the advice in this short midweek episode. Links from this episode: Rostra’s “Go Direct” Manifesto ‘Traditional PR is dead’: Inside Lulu Cheng Meservey’s radical in-your-face playbook Dissecting the “go direct” communications debate Lulu Cheng Meservey on When You Need an Agency and Who You Should Hire (on X) Is PR to Blame for “DEI” Becoming a Four-Letter Word in Corporate America? The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, March 24. We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email fircomments@gmail.com. Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music. You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients. Raw Transcript: Neville Hobson: Hi everyone, and welcome to for immediate release. This is episode 455. I’m Neville Hobson. Shel Holtz: And I’m Shell Holtz. And several years ago there was a trend making the rounds of startups. Who are passing on bringing a public relations professional on board, opting for the founder to do their own pr. The rationale for this was that the founder was in a better position to tell the company’s early story, and that with resources limited, spending money on PR shouldn’t be a priority. There were plenty of arguments on the other side, too, focused on, understanding the media, knowing what kind of story is gonna produce the kind of results you’re looking for and so on. In any case, the whole debate just seemed to fade away. Until now, a PR practitioner named Lulu Chang Meserve is shaking up public relations with this bold stance that traditional PR is dead. I guess we could put this under our blank, is dead series. Her philosophy centers on empowering [00:01:00] founders and organizations to go direct, meaning they should take control of their narratives without relying heavily on traditional media. Her philosophy centers on empowering founders and organizations to go direct, meaning they should take control of their narratives without relying heavily on traditional media intermediaries or PR agencies. This approach emphasizes authenticity. Transparency and direct engagement with audiences. We’ll explore what Meserve is saying right after this. Messer V derives the label corporate communications as though it’s the corporation and not a team of talented communicators or even the company’s leaders and other spokespeople and thought leaders who are doing the communicating. But her [00:02:00] strategy is appealing to startups and tech companies that are eager to maintain their unique voices without the dilution that can come from conventional PR methods. By advocating for leaders to communicate directly through platforms like social media, company blogs, and other owned channels, she believes organizations can foster more genuine connections and swiftly address issues as they arise. Now, this isn’t just theory that she’s slinging around. She’s implemented it in high stakes environments. She was at Activision Blizzard where she NA navigated complex public scrutiny with assertiveness and transparency. Her approach has garnered attention and endorsement from prominent figures in Silicon Valley, including Sam Altman and Brian Armstrong, who appreciate the emphasis on authenticity and direct engagement. Now critics of traditional PR argue that relying solely on established media channels can lead to misrepresentation or a loss of control of the [00:03:00] message. Messer v’s approach addresses this by cutting out the middleman, allowing organizations to present their narratives unfiltered. However, it’s worth noting the strategy requires a deep understanding of one’s audience and the nuances of various communication platforms to be effective. Her approach also ignores the value of earned media having . A trusted third party tell your story. But in parallel, we’re witnessing instances where traditional corporate PR strategies are facing significant backlash. And DEI has been raised as an example. The question some are asking is whether companies were motivated by the anticipated PR benefit of promoting DEI than to a commitment to genuinely improve diversity inclusion in the organization over a long term. Chris Gez, and I hope I’m pronouncing that it’s G-I-D-E-Z-A. Strategic Reputation and communications advisor asked this question in a LinkedIn article last month, and he concluded that PR [00:04:00] should share some of the blame for DEI becoming a four letter word in corporate America. I. He argues that a lot of companies wrap themselves in the DEI flag because they looked at DEI first and foremost as a reputational opportunity, or they said the potential risk was serious if they didn’t wrap themselves in that flag. It’s a situation that highlights how traditional pr, can backfire, especially when it’s perceived as ina inauthentic or reactionary. So this backlash against DEI efforts underscores the importance of authenticity and direct communication in organizational strategies. When companies implement DEI initiatives primarily as Pete. Our maneuvers without genuine commitment, they risk public skepticism and potential backlash. Mastery’s emphasis on direct and transparent communication can serve as a valuable lesson. Here. Organizations have to align their public messaging with their core values and actions to maintain credibility. [00:05:00] Of course, some, including me might argue that going direct is just the owned and shared part of the pay zone model. There’s still plenty of evidence that traditional PR is still useful. Would you really wanna just go direct during an existential corporate crisis? I don’t know, Neville. I find the, all or nothing approach here not be one that I advise people pay much attention to. Neville Hobson: Yeah, I tend to be with you on that. Shall I? Had not heard of this lady before this conversation. But I did read the manifesto. She posts on her firm’s website, the firm called Roster. Traditional PR is dead as the provocative clickbait like headline. And she goes into her explainer on that, which is largely I suppose I could summarize it with the bold sentence she has on her site saying The old PR playbook of relying on third parties with misaligned interest is obsolete. I wouldn’t disagree with that although I might say it’s not obsolete. It’s actually alive and well. People with misaligned interest is all over the place, but that [00:06:00] therein lies the issue that where you can agree with some of what she says but it’s difficult when she applies what she says to the entire industry. The whole PR profession is basically full of charlatans and not worth your time. They have their own interest, not yours, and you shouldn’t waste any time with it. Spent quite a while dissecting this. I think if we wanted to and come up with a dozen, two dozen reasons why you shouldn’t do this to the exclusion of working with, as you mentioned, the talented folks who tend to occupy the PR space. Certainly in most organizations. I did read as well a kind of a postscript to all of this. She published on X, which was linked to an article about all of this just a few days ago actually, where she posted a lengthy tweet. Obviously she’s got the account that lets you do the 40,000 characters or whatever it is. When do you need a PR agency and who should you hire? That’s the first part of her. Submissive and she who has [00:07:00] a second part that goes into that in more detail, how much should you pay for one? These to me are quite provocative statements. All of it’s great for discussion. If you think it’s worth the discussion, I’m not sure it is shell to be frank. Certainly not in the PR industry even though I would argue that she does make a number of. Kind of head nodding statements that you could say. Yep. I wouldn’t disagree with that. Where she does talk about some of the issues in pr, she talks about press releases, read like they were written by a baker’s dozen of middle managers where she she talks about corporate communication itself, an oxymoron as nothing meaningful, as you pointed out, communicated by face committee if it were thus. I wouldn’t disagree hard, I don’t think with almost anything she’s written, but it is not like that at all. Maybe in her world it is other, I suspect these are serving statements that serve simply to reinforce the argument she’s making for why go direct is her mantra. And as you noted, I. We’ve [00:08:00] been here 15 years ago, if not 20 years ago, at the dawn of the social media age, where there were a number of people, particularly in that Silicon Valley startup environment you mentioned, who were talking very strongly about, you do not need pr, don’t waste your money. You, the founder, can go direct and do all this stuff yourself. It became quite clear. That’s not really a wise thing when the founder is trying to talk to investors and raise money and actually do the founding work of his startup. But this, as you said, this kind of goes around and comes around and now here’s the latest wave. She, is in the kind of celebrity PR area because of all the quotes she’s got there. She mentions an interesting expression the podcasting circuit sort of makes it sound like a celebrity magazine. So that’s the kind of era, this is not the real world at all, but good luck to her really. I think there are a couple things we can learn from what she says though, that I think make it easy perhaps to . Reinforce the view [00:09:00] of why traditional PR is not dead at all. And you could actually counter all these with some sound arguments on that. I think it’s worth putting a list, a link to this website manifesto in the show nutshell. So if anyone was interested, they can go and look at it themselves, but I don’t think this is anything. We should worry about in the PR profession, UN, unless or until or maybe both. We suddenly hear different from normal companies rather than celebrity types. Shel Holtz: In this post on X she has a line here that I think is very telling. She’s. Saying, of course I don’t mean that you need to do absolutely every communication activity yourself. She says, if you can’t keep up with all the comms work that needs to be done, you’re a bottleneck and need to get help . So it’s only a matter of being overwhelmed by it. She also says that finding strong writers is hard, so unless you’re luck out, you’re better off doing the writing yourself. Even if it’s mid, at least it’ll be mid in your voice. I, again, I think this completely [00:10:00] ignores the value of, of third party coverage. She talks about misaligned interests. I talk about reporters who are writing about the things that you are interested in getting out to an audience and whom your audience is reading. This is why you find those writers who are . Taking an angle that is consistent with the approach that you wanna take to get to tell your story and work with them pitch them appropriately so you get their interest and then they tell your story to their readers in a way that resonates. And it’s credible because it’s not coming from you. Of course, you said that it’s your organization, you’re looking to get the best response you possibly can, that here’s somebody who went out and did some research and some interviews, and they said it based on. Their investigation or their reporting and that is of value there, there’s just no question about that. Maybe their interests are misaligned. That’s why you work with them to get the best outcome that you can. Doesn’t mean that you don’t [00:11:00] go direct, it’s a long with not instead of, as Mitch Joel. So often said and anytime anybody says X is dead I, and I don’t mean x, the former Twitter I mean fill in the blank is dead. I, I. Get very skeptical. We’ve been hearing this for so long now. We’ve done so many episodes going way back 20 years on people claiming that something is dead. That wasn’t traditional PRS is doing just fine. The other thing that I think she is saying here, and it has been said before and I have couched it in these terms before. Is that bad? PR is bad. Don’t hire bad PR people. Don’t hire somebody who’s gonna write a press release. That sounds like it was written by committee. I know they’re out there. There’s a lot of them. It’s that situation that we exist in which anybody can hang out a PR shingle and say, I do PR and crank out crappy press releases. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t. Agencies out there, or independent practitioners or people that you can [00:12:00] hire in-house who can write a great press release, it’s gonna get a lot of pickup and get a lot of the attention that you need. So you know, bad PR is bad. Don’t use it. Use good pr. Neville Hobson: Ha. Yeah. Simple answer there. Shall I agree with you? I think thinking about the reality of public relations practice compared to what what she writes about it does occur to me that again, reading her manifesto in particular, that it’s almost as if the kind of major thing a founder. Going direct is almost like telling the story in his or her own words, directly talking to influential people. He or she may engage with, most of that kind of approach isn’t like that. Um, I’m thinking for instance, where and you actually touched on the point where you’ve got a, not you, not a potentially biased voice telling the story. Like you said, it was a sound, of course he’s gonna say this or that is someone who is [00:13:00] able to Provide the nuances of the story tailored to the people they’re talking to which is, the relationships that you build, not just with other fou, with founders, it’s with journalists, it’s with influencers, it’s with industry analysts, policy makers who shape public discourse, all of that. So is a founder gonna have time to do all of that? And there comes back to, I think a genuine reality. That this is not really the kind of job the founder of a startup could or should be doing. Even that’s why you have professionals. So you could apply the argument if you don’t need PR people ’cause he or she could do this themselves. What about all these other areas in the business? The finance. What about strategic planning? You could do this all yourself. Unless you’re Elon Musk, of course. Then most people don’t do that. Shel Holtz: I remember the Melbourne mandate from the Global Alliance for Public Relations and Communications Management 12, 13 years ago that put PR at the middle of the business because they understood.[00:14:00] All of the issues that could weigh on a business and counsel the leaders about actions they’re going to take and what message that might inadvertently send and what kind of repercussions it, it might create. If a founder’s doing this on their own then there’s nobody there to say, wait a minute. If you say that, then this could happen. They’re not experienced professional communicators, and again, it’s not a, it’s not a job where you just hang out a shingle and decide . Today, Hey, I think I’m gonna become a PR person. It takes practice, it takes experience. It takes work to be able to look at what a company is planning to do and anticipate what the feedback from various stakeholders is gonna be. I just don’t think a founder’s equipped to do that. Should they be going direct? Yes. Yes, they should, but they should be doing it with counsel. And it should be balanced with paid and earned media. Neville Hobson: Yeah. So if we take the manifest, going back to a manifesto, the section on communications, the founder’s job, you take that [00:15:00] literally as it is written. You could pick holes in that. A big one would be in, in the event of. A crisis that erupts the communication that’s required from that the planning that goes into all of that, of course the monitoring, the paying attention, the nuanced messaging you might create, and identifying who you’ll deliver it to on a timely basis that you can’t do this. I I’m. Pretty certain. She doesn’t mean it exactly like that, but that’s how it reads. Communicates to founders, they’re irreplaceable. They’re the ones who can do all the communication. They don’t need polished people or those with the. Right credential. So I’m not sure where she’s going with that argument, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense, it seems to me. It, like I said, it’s worth a read to contrast that with what, if you’re in the PR business, how you see the role of public relations. I think though, one thing I would add to this is, to me this adds even more kind of pressure, [00:16:00] if you will, on . The, this whole issue we’ve discussed a number of times on the regulation of the industry, the licensing of practitioners where you could uh, sidestep being blindsided by bad PR people. So it’s in that area too, it seems to me. But this is definitely not something a proce procedure. I would recommend to anybody to follow this line. Shel Holtz: No, and I raised that whole situation about pr contributing perhaps to the fall of DEI by touting it when the commitment wasn’t there in the organization. That’s cautionary we, we can’t engage in that kind of communication. I’m a full supporter of DEI, but if I were counseling an organization and saw that the leadership wasn’t really bought into it, I wouldn’t. Suggest that they make a big deal out of it publicly, and I think that’s what a lot of organizations did. Neville Hobson: I agree. I-I-A-D-E-I hasn’t been a big thing over here in [00:17:00] the UK compared to the promise it has in the US and the kind of backed on it all. Certainly not that I’ve seen in mainstream media reporting, and certainly not what I’ve seen . Practitioners talking about on open platforms. But you are right. What I’ve observed and this is mostly in the US is that there are numbers of things I’ve read about DEI initiatives and organizations where my first thought was. This is a PR activity they’re talking about. Yeah. It makes them look good. And in which case, yeah, no surprise, all this stuff is going on. I dunno where this is gonna end up. Shell it seems to be going from bad to worse in terms of kind of de deprioritizing deleting even anything related to those three acronym letters. Don’t see that happening over here. But another interesting, as a kind of an aside to all of this is some US companies, I don’t have my notes at hand are not implementing what the parent company in the US is doing about DEI across a number of European countries. That’s interesting. It seems to me, [00:18:00] because are we gonna end up with, severe battles going on between subsidiaries in different countries refusing to follow the lead of the parent? That’s interesting. May or may not happen, but it’s certainly something I’m seeing people talking about. So it’s I, I. It is a tough one from a communications point of view. And if we go back to, it’s the founder’s job, go direct. You are the one who has to do all this. The founder of a startup is faced with a similar issue to communicate on DEI as the founder of a big global multinational corporation. There’s an issue and you might be asked about what’s your DEI initiatives and how come you’re not employing this kind of people? Or how come you are employing this kind of people? What are you gonna say? That’s of course purely reactive. What about proactivity? About all of this? Yeah, there’s too many wooly holes in this. That would make me very uncomfortable if I were having this conversation with a client saying, what about go direct? Should we ditch PR and and do all this ourselves? Although I don’t, I can’t imagine anyone asking [00:19:00] that question, frankly. Hel Shel Holtz: Yeah. Oh no. My only concern is that people look at the blow back to DEI recognize that it’s partly because it was just a PR thing in the first place and say maybe this is right. Maybe we do need to go direct and as true public relations, a council and I think it’s on the public relations profession to ensure that we don’t do that type of thing so that our value is not, tarnished by these kinds of mistakes. Yeah. Agree with that. And that’ll be a 30 for this episode of four Media Release. The post FIR #455: Traditional PR is Dead (Again) appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini explore strategies for agency owners contemplating an exit plan. They discuss the importance of planning and the different options available, depending on the agency’s size and structure. They talk about the limited choices for solopreneurs, as well as a wider variety of possibilities for larger agencies, including mergers, transferring ownership to employees, or simply stepping back from daily operations. They emphasize the need for a solid timeline and a leadership team to ensure a smooth transition and successful exit. Additionally, they caution about potential pitfalls and unrealistic expectations, sharing insights from their own experiences and those of others in the industry. [read the transcript] The post ALP 265: Choosing the right exit strategy as an agency owner appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip chats with Lee McKnight, Jr. from RSW/US about the findings from their latest survey on agency and marketer perspectives. They discuss key topics such as the discrepancies between agencies’ efforts to productize services versus clients’ preference for customized solutions, the increasing trend towards fixed-fee pricing over hourly billing, and the importance of staying ahead of trends to meet client expectations. The conversation touches on the effectiveness of direct outreach and the role of AI and short-form video in modern agency practices. They also highlight the need for more meaningful client conversations and the diminishing popularity of RFPs as agencies focus on quality over quantity in their business development efforts. [read the transcript] The post CWC 106: Client perspectives on agencies in 2025 (featuring Lee McKnight, Jr.) appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

AI-powered search is fundamentally changing how reputations are built, managed, and perceived online. In this FIR Interview, we’re joined by Sam Michelson, founder and CEO of digital reputation management company Five Blocks, to discuss how companies and executives must rethink their approach to digital reputation management in a world where search is no longer just about Google. Sam explains how AI-driven platforms like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Perplexity are shifting search behaviour. Users are no longer just looking for links; they’re asking complex, conversational questions and expecting detailed, AI-generated summaries. This means that traditional SEO tactics, like keyword optimisation and structured markup, are becoming less relevant. Instead, companies must focus on creating rich, authoritative content that AI models can reference to shape narratives. A key challenge, Sam notes, is that most companies don’t address their own challenges online. When people ask AI models about the risks or controversies surrounding a brand, the answers often come from news sites or third-party sources rather than the company itself. By not filling this information gap, businesses risk having others define their reputation for them. We also explore the rise of Agentic AI, where autonomous digital agents gather, analyse, and summarise information, both for consumers and businesses. Five Blocks is experimenting with AI-driven monitoring tools that track how different AI platforms present brands, helping companies stay ahead of reputational risks. Key Takeaways AI search constructs narratives, not just ranked results – brands must ensure their voice is included. Companies need to surface their own rich, authoritative content to influence AI-generated answers. Ignoring reputation challenges means others will define them for you. Transparency is key. Traditional SEO is losing ground to AI-driven search – brands should shift focus to thought leadership and authoritative content. The time to act is now – early movers in AI search strategy will have a significant advantage. About Our Conversation Partner Sam Michelson is a recognised thought leader in digital reputation management and the Founder and CEO of Five Blocks, a pioneering firm that helps executives and brands take control of their online presence. With over 20 years of experience, Sam has worked closely with industry leaders and top PR and public affairs firms, advising them on strategies to shape search results, Wikipedia pages, and AI-driven platforms like ChatGPT. A sought-after speaker and consultant, Sam shares insights on the evolving digital landscape, reputation strategy, and the intersection of technology and communications. He holds two U.S. patents for innovations in knowledge base technology and interactive digital advertising. Beyond his work, Sam is an avid traveller, scuba diver, and mountain biker. He is married and has eight children. Follow Sam on LinkedIn Links from This Interview Sam Michelson’s Blog: Sam’s Block Five Blocks The post Sam Michelson on How AI Search is Changing Reputation Management appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

At the now-infamous press conference that turned out to be an orchestrated ambush of Ukranian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Real American’s Voice correspondent Brian Glenn lobbed a hand grenade of a question to Zelenskyy. That single question was emblematic of an entire shift in the way the media works, requiring a comprehensive rethink of how public relations practitioners prepare for a media environment in which engineered outrage is rewarded by the press because spectacle earns more clicks than substance. In this short midweek episode of For Immediate Release, Neville and Shel break down the many implications for the practice of PR and the actions required to prepare brands to be targets of the same kind of treatment Zelenskyy got at the hands of the leaders of the free world and the complicit media at the press conference. Links from this episode: When a Trump-supporting journalist heckled President Zelensky for not wearing a suit Trump and Vance attack Zelenskyy in remarkable Oval Office exchange Antisemitism in the Oval Office   The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, March 24. We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email fircomments@gmail.com. Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music. You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients. Raw Transcript: Shel Holtz (2): [00:00:00] Hi everybody, and welcome to episode number 454 of four immediate release. I’m She Holtz. Neville Hobson: And I’m Neville Hobson. I’m sure almost every listener to this podcast has heard about the extraordinary encounter between Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, and US President Donald Trump in the Oval Office on the 28th of February with US Vice President JD Vance. During the argument. Here’s what happens. A Rightwing journalist, Brian Glenn, questions, Zelensky choice of attire, rather than focusing on war or democracy during a press conference alongside Trump and Vance, why wasn’t he wearing a suit? They wanted to know, this wasn’t an offhand remark, but a calculated attempt to manipulate perception. Demonstrating how mainstream media today isn’t just about information, but about controlling narratives. In the post on LinkedIn last week, mark Bukowski highlights a fundamental shift in pr, media, [00:01:00] and public discourse, illustrated by the seemingly trivial but strategically loaded question asked of Zelensky by Brian Glenn setting the scene for an ugly ambush on the unsuspecting zelensky by Trump and Vance in front of an assembly of journalist reporters and TV cameras. As Politico described it, Trump advanced both turned on the embattled Ukrainian wartime leader during a remarkably tense exchange accusing zelensky of failing to express sufficient gratitude for US involvement and overplaying what they said was a weak diplomatic hand. Bukowski argues that the media landscape has fractured, no longer functioning as a singular town square, but as a collection of information silos shaped by algorithms, AI driven amplification, and engagement driven clickbait. Traditional pr, once focused on managing reputation and discourse, is now deeply entangled in a performative attention economy that prioritizes spectacle over substance. Trump [00:02:00] exemplifies this shift by not just controlling messaging, but orchestrating the entire conversation, selectively choosing which media outlets get access and ensuring that only those who play his game shape. The narrative this Bosky warns is a crisis not just for pr, but for public discourse and truth itself. If pr, media and politics are now entangled in a world where attention is weaponized communicators and industry associations must take proactive steps to adapt and uphold credibility. I. So she, how do you see it all? Where you sit in the us? Shel Holtz (2): Yeah, here in the US this was all anybody was talking about for a few days. But I didn’t look at it from the PR perspective until you shared this Mark Bakowski link in our Slack channel, and that led me down quite a rabbit hole. I started dissecting all of this in terms of the implications for. Public relations and communications. You [00:03:00] touched on a few of them. Certainly. There’s the fragmentation of the media ecosystem. We don’t have a town square anymore. We have silos. They tend to be driven by echo chambers. And those echo, echo chambers are driven by algorithms. Organizations trying to reach broad audiences have a problem. So that’s one thing to consider. That’s also something that we were aware of. There’s this shift from message control to conversation control that I teased out of Marx. LinkedIn post we in PR typically sought to manage a message and shape public perception. That’s the role of public relations. Now, as Mark suggests in the article, some figures don’t just control the message. They control who gets to ask and what conversations dominate. You referenced that as well in terms of him picking which media get to. Report on him in person blocking AP and Reuters because he doesn’t like them. Then there’s [00:04:00] this notion of performative media. In pr we used to focus on crafting narratives for traditional media. But today’s media as characterized by this reporter’s question was an example of spectacle over substance and the fact that the media. Reported on that shows that it works. The heckling that Zelensky got from Trump and Vance and some of the press in the room wasn’t about getting an answer. It was all about engineering outrage. So what does this mean for reputation management? Do pr people need to get ready for performative attacks on their executives, on their brands? I don’t have answers to these things. These are questions that, as far as I can tell are just emerging now. But I think a couple, I Neville Hobson: think they, they have to prepare for this kind of thing. Oh yeah. There’s no Shel Holtz (2): question they have to, but how is a question. Yeah. There’s also the suggestion in the article, the truth is devalued when attention is the currency. Now we’ve all known that attention is the currency. [00:05:00] With the rise of social media in its current form with its clicks and its ads and the way the Facebook and the rest of them make money. How do you balance engagement with integrity? There’s this pressure to win the attention game that, does that lead us to continue to prioritize clickability over credibility? This is another. Issuer, I think we have to weigh the two sides and make some decisions and implement some processes. Neville Hobson: Yeah, I agree. I think you mentioned when I interrupted you earlier about how the, how I utterly agree therein lies the huge dilemma for communicators because we could come up and indeed I do have a laundry list. These are the things we need to do this. It doesn’t have the how I. For instance, one of ’em I’ve got here is about prioritizing media literacy and narrative analysis amongst your communication team. So it talks about train the teams to identify and contract disinformation tactics, recognizing when narratives are being manipulated. Great. How do [00:06:00] we do this regularly. Audit media sources, influencers of credibility for engage. That’s an easy one because I’m sure many are doing that now too. But some of these things I have to admit are almost common sense. Champion fact-based storytelling, for instance e emphasize accuracy over engagement aligned storytelling with verified sources. And that probably gets, I think, to the. To the heart of the matter on the how. And there are some things that we are, I think overall collectively, many communicators are a bit lax on which is a thorough verification of sources. And so you are not, if you are encountering a situations such as the a the outcome of that event in the White House and you are gonna report on it, you’re gonna look at who’s saying what about it, you . Probably got more work to do to verify your sources because anyone with an opinion is posting including in the mainstream media where they might not be as, as thorough in their verification procedures as they could be quoting some, even some [00:07:00] papers. But I’ve seen blogs mostly with unverifiable. I was gonna say facts. They’re not facts. I say their opinion and most of ’em aren’t. So again, that just makes it even more essential to do your due diligence properly when you’ve got this kind of situation that you’re trying to address. That’s one, one area. Another Shel Holtz (2): area to consider is that going forward Zelensky going into a meeting with Trump will probably be anticipating this type of an attack. And I think I. Brands and leaders should do the same. Manipulated narratives are going to become a routine tactic in competition, whether it’s in the political arena or the arena of commerce. So do we need to shift toward narrative defense strategies in a media landscape where . Bad faith actors are manufacturing this kind of outrage. If we continue to do as Mark says in the LinkedIn piece focus on [00:08:00] influencer fluff and corporate vanity metrics, we won’t be ready for these. No. And it is pretty clear that in this kind of immediate landscape, those kinds of attacks are coming. And we have seen the things that start in the political realm. Migrate their way over. We saw that with DeepFakes, for example. First they were in, first they were in entertainment with ridiculous and just fun stuff. But then they went into politics in order to. Make you think you were hearing or seeing a politician who never said or did what you heard or saw. But now it’s affecting business. So far it’s mostly, phishing attacks and the like. But we’re seeing this particularly with the ai Yeah. Generated stuff. I think there needs to be a shift in the focus of what PR is working on if we wanna remain relevant and. Prepare content that helps us when these kinds of manufactured outages are targeting . The business. Neville Hobson: Yeah. [00:09:00] Yeah. I think projecting this out into a business situation it, it had got me thinking when I was thinking this through myself even about how would you, how do you anticipate, let’s call them weaponized PR tactics by the other side, let’s say and have yourself prepared for that. How do you do that? We’ve now have a clear indicator of what that looks like. The Trump Vance ganging up on Zelensky, so it wouldn’t be difficult to project that out to, for instance, your a PR agency pitching for a client’s business. And this. This also I guess clearly shows how the age of politeness has diminished entirely. Where before if you disagreed, it’s polite disagreement. Here you’ve got a situation where it’s outrage and it’s anger. It’s vulgar and it’s, the effing and the blinding language going on that in polite conversation you never had. That’s changed radically. And that’s now common currency. Look at any TV program, a series, a topical series on anything. And the f word is [00:10:00] almost it’s it’s occupying now the space as, oh damn we, we all said many years ago, and that was a rude word, no longer. So all that has shifted radically. So that is your environment. You are making a pitch. And beforehand what might have happened is that the other side, if they didn’t like it wouldn’t say much, but you’d tell after you’d done that, they weren’t that impressed. Now they tell you in extremely strong terms that you’re full of. You know what? How do you anticipate that? That’s actually not too difficult. So I place that under the heading of Anticipate weaponized PR tactics and that. Is part of that, you are in a pitch and that’s the response you’re getting. How are you going to address it? Are you gonna say anything about it afterwards? And this is another thing the kind of traditional non-disclosures and privacy elements are now questionable whether people will observe those. So you gotta assume that NDA procedure we had many years ago ain’t gonna, ain’t gonna work anymore. So you’ve got to take that into account. So the environment has shifted. [00:11:00] If you then look at a product launch media invited, they’ve been told not to, embargo until so and so that I’m afraid I would place no trust in anyone obeying that anymore at all. Shel Holtz (2): I. You remember Andrea Beckley and her civilization efforts to bring civility back into the public online commons. She must be despondent over the state of things right now. Neville Hobson: The politeness thing I wrote a post the other day about are you polite to an AI when you’re talking to a chat bot? And I argue the case as to why I saw that you should be. Yeah. And I am. That’s I say please, and thank you. Sure. I do all the time. So that’s where we’re at. And this is under threat to all these behaviors by the likes of people like Trump and his supporters or Hisense, whatever you want to call ’em. And people take advantage of that too. So you’ve got a landscape that is extremely. Difficult to truly understand based on the rules [00:12:00] we’ve been following for a long time. And this reflects, I see big headlines in some of the tabloids here in the uk. Trump has overturned the world order. He has, frankly, he has. And we have to accept that there’s no, there’s probably no going back on anything now until Trump’s gone. But his legacy is gonna be that this is actually gonna be the norm for quite a while forward, I would say. Shel Holtz (2): Just to come back to the PR implications of this. Sure. A couple of additional thoughts. One is that there may be some people who work in media relations or public relations who are watching Trump and wondering if the things that he is succeeding at are worth emulating. And I’m looking at, as we’ve already discussed, his control of message through controlled access. Is there something that PR people are going to take away from that. Are we going to start to think that we should be controlling who shapes public discourse about our brand, about our products about our [00:13:00] organization? And I’m not sure that’s the best tactics to adopt in pr, but there may well be some people who are considering that. One other thought and that’s what I saw, an article Neville Hobson: one. One quick comment on that before we move on is that then presents an opportunity for professional associations to really show their value. Sure. Revise their codes of ethics, advocating for responsible media practices public education campaigns, or media literacy, for instance. Just a couple of things. Supports. PR training for this kind of thing but also Shel Holtz (2): advocating for open access to your. Content. You’re not going to tell what a media outlet? No. We don’t like the way you report things, so you can’t Neville Hobson: cover us, yeah, that, that actually was truly stunning when the AP was banned. But they don’t seem to be too alarmed themselves about it any longer after the initial, what kind of thing. So it’s happened, but it still could happen further. So it is to do with that control. This is getting a [00:14:00] bit like. Oh, dare I say, it’s Soviet Union Days. I mean it’s extraordinary. Shel Holtz (2): One other article crossed my feeds and it’s tangentially related to this. And I think this is a communications unintended consequence that maybe Trump and Vance didn’t consider. And if you’re planning on engaging in some of these kinds of tactics it’s a fair warning. That this kind of communication might follow. Now, this happens to be on a substack of somebody that I have never heard of before. He’s a Holocaust historian. But this was making the rounds. He wrote a piece called Antisemitism in the Oval Office, and it is a rather lengthy and very well documented. Essay that essentially says that the attack on Zelensky was an anti-Semitic attack. Now I didn’t see that. I saw the press conference. I saw it while it was happening. Is he Jewish zelensky? Pardon? Is he Jewish? Zelensky? Yes. Zelensky is Jewish. Okay. [00:15:00] Yeah, definitely. But what this guy is arguing is essentially that if you look at the laws. That were implemented in Nazi Germany at the beginning of the Third Reich? Not, yeah before they started hauling people off to concentration camps where they were just trying to marginalize the Jewish population in society. It was exactly the same criticisms that were being leveled. Its zelensky, the way you dress and things like that. And he documents this extremely well. Yeah. And this is making the rounds. And if it’s. Gaining traction among populations that are opposed to antisemitism. And you listen to the Trump administration talk about its efforts to STEM antisemitism. A lot of this at universities, which I really think is just targeting universities, finding an excuse to target universities. . But you’re gonna lose some support among some of the people who have been supportive. Thinking through what people might [00:16:00] say or might do as a result of this action that, you’ve been looking at what we get out of attacking Zelensky what do we pro prospectively lose should be another consideration. This goes back to something I. Talked about years ago, which is in the communication strategic plan, we should have a step that just before launch, we close our eyes. We project six months out into the future after we have launched whatever it is that we’re going to launch and say what went wrong. It was a tremendous failure. Why what failed and anticipate consequences that you hadn’t anticipated before. Neville Hobson: There’s something that just popped into my mind, a news story I saw this morning about empathy and how Trump and Musk demonstrate with their words and their deeds, a complete and utter lack of empathy. And the article paralleled that with what happened or what was happening in Nazi Germany. At the same time of the period you are talking about. So I’m thinking we, [00:17:00] we would like to see more of this kind of comparison being made. It’s alarming frankly, because I think there’s a lot of people are gonna say, you know what? I think they’re probably right. These guys are like that. I dunno what that says for where we go from here. Shell, frankly, but this is not as usual. That’s a fact. Shel Holtz (2): Oh, it’s gonna get worse before it gets better. Count on that, and that’ll be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release. The post FIR #454: When the Media Rewards Spectacle Over Substance appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the ongoing challenge of managing remote workers in the PR and marketing agency world. Five years after most agencies leaned in to remote or hybrid work models, many owners and managers continue to struggle with finding the right approach to managing employees that they don’t see in person every day. Chip and Gini address misconceptions about remote work, emphasize the importance of clear communication and trust, and highlight the need for detailed expectations and accountability. They advocate for flexibility and open dialogue between employers and employees. Using real-world examples and personal experiences, they present a balanced view of remote work’s benefits and challenges. [read the transcript] The post ALP 264: Managing remote workers without micromanaging appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

It may seem counterintuitive, but playful teasing between brands and customers can produce unexpected benefits. Inspired by research from Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business, we explore why strategically “roasting” customers with humor and lighthearted banter can enhance brand loyalty and deepen customer connections. Discover how embracing a bit of playful provocation might be the surprising secret ingredient your brand needs to stand out, build lasting relationships, and keep your audience coming back for more. Also in this episode, we follow up our report from FIR #442 (December 26, 2024) about the publicity battle between Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively: A report in the Hollywood Reporter finds that the fallout from this conflict is affecting publicists everywhere. Links from this episode: Why ‘Roasting’ Your Customers May Help Your Brand FIR #442: Justin Baldoni’s Attack on Blake Lively Explains Why PR is a Dirty Word Lively vs. Baldoni Has Already “Change Hollywood Publicity Forever” The Ethics of PR: Lessons from the Blake lively Smear Campaign (Neville’s Blog) The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, March 24. We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email fircomments@gmail.com. Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music. You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients. Raw Transcript: Well, hi everyone, and welcome to four immediate Release. This is episode 4 53. I’m Neville Hobson. I’m Shell Holtz, and all of our reports of late have been very serious in tone and nature. So we’re gonna lighten it up a little bit today and talk about poking fun at your customers in public. Doing that in, in insulting your customers, while others are watching, may not seem like the best way to get their business. But brands are increasingly embracing playful provocation to engage. Consumers and foster deeper relationships. This strategy, often referred to as a roasting customer involves lighthearted teasing that humanizes the brand and makes it more relatable. This isn’t just a, an observation I’m making based on, tweets and other messages that I see from brands. This is based on Uni University research, that rigorous academic research in this case from Duke University’s Fuqua [00:01:00] School of Business, which highlighted the effectiveness of this approach. I. Professor Gavin Fitzsimmons and his colleagues found that playful provocation enhances the customer brand connection by making brands appear more human-like. Their studies demonstrated that teasing increases engagement compared to humor alone, but caution that excessive provocation can lead to negative perceptions, to which I said, well, no, duh. So there’s a balance that needs to be struck, but let’s. Take a quick look at several brands that have been implementing this tactic successfully. Starting with one of the ones that I think is best known for this, which is Wendy’s known for its sharp and witty social media presence. They frequently roast both. Competitors and customers. In fact, they have a national roast day where they invite followers to request a roast leading to some pretty funny and engaging interactions. A user, for example, said, roast to me Wendy’s, and Wendy’s said, you’re like a participation trophy in human form. [00:02:00] And there’s Ryanair. The European airline u uses a cheeky and irreverent tone on platforms like TikTok, often poking fun at common travel mishaps, and even its own services, which resonates with a younger audience. On TikTok they said, when you realize your carry-on is bigger than our leg room I didn’t see the photo that went with, but I can imagine. Duncan the Coffee and Donuts place and a Halloween campaign, they featured a spider themed donut that was accompanied by suggestive messages on social media, aiming to rebuild interest in the product and engage customers with playful content. Netflix often engages in playful banter with its audience on social media, teasing fans about their viewing habits and preferences that humanizes the brand and fosters the sense of community. KFC another fast food place. They’ve employed humor and mild provocation in its marketing, such as responding to customer tweets with pretty witty remarks, [00:03:00] enhancing brand relatability and customer engagement. There’s Old Spice. They sent a tweet that said If your grandfather hadn’t worn Old, old Spice, you wouldn’t exist as the type of thing that they do. Dollar Shave Club has viral marketing campaigns that invo include humorous and edgy content that mocks traditional shaving brands. Oreo. During the 2013 Super Bowl blackout, they were quick-witted saying You can still dunk in the dark. We reported on that when it happened. They took advantage of an unexpected situation, earning some praise and engagement by being a little. Snarky. Spotify their annual rap campaign highlights users listening habits, sometimes teasing them about their most streamed songs or genres, which encourages social sharing and brand interaction. And Telstra, the Australian Telecommunications Company, they launched a whimsical animated campaign titled Wherever we Go that was aimed to reshape its [00:04:00] corporate image and connect with customers on a more playful level through that personal . Content research supports the effectiveness of the strategy. A study published in the Journal of Consumer Research found that playful provocation increases engagement and connection to the brand by making it appear more human-like and relatable. But they also caution that doing this too much can pro provoke negative feelings and underscores the importance of balance. There was also research highlighted in the magazine, frontiers in Psychology. That indicates that witty brand teasing can be an effective communication strategy as low aggressive humor increases consumer interest by reducing perceptions of manipulative intent. So when executed thoughtfully, teasing and playful, Provo provocation can serve as a as powerful tools for brands to enhance customer engagement and build stronger connections. So you’re gonna start teasing people on LinkedIn, Neville. It’s it’s interesting I have to say shell the examples you gave, [00:05:00] many of them I’ve heard of some I haven’t. I’m actually intrigued. I guess it, it leads me to ask the follow up question, which is, okay, they did these things. What were the outcomes? Were they worth doing? I have to say, when I was listening to what, to you outlining all of these, I was trying to think of some recent ones and I can’t actually recall any. I mean there obviously have been some. But I think it’s a it’s a risky proposition, isn’t it? You need to be very confident in your brand proposition and the fact that it’s well understood, I suspect, or you are strong enough to withstand a backlash to that. So you gotta have your plan well structured to get the result you want, I would imagine. Some of ’em are clever. You mentioned Ryanair. It’s an Irish airline actually, and they have a reputation. We’ve talked about this in episodes from many years back. The CEO of Ryanair is renowned for insulting customers but not in a humorous way. He really does insult them. I. He’s had a sea change in the last couple of years where he’s actually become [00:06:00] a normal, reasonable human being. rather than the kind of obnoxious person He was bellowing with age, is he? Yeah. I think, and he has some smart people running the social accounts without doubt because I still see them with some of the witty approaches to very snarky approaches, which actually Produce a smile rather than anger. That’s a sea change in how they’ve gone about it. But it is a fine line, isn’t it? You need to be careful with humor. We know that otherwise, if you get it wrong, it can have serious implications. I think it begins with your brand voice. I believe. If your voice is one that is very serious and then all of a sudden you decide to. Engage in some of this banter with somebody online. It’s going to be very much a non-sequitur. It’s gonna be jarring. People are gonna wonder what you’re up to. But if you have established a voice that is playful like that, Wendy’s did this early on, on Twitter. In fact, I remember when I was [00:07:00] consulting I met with a team from Wendy’s, and this was. Before they were on Twitter for, I’d have to go look my notes, but it may have even been before there was a Twitter and they were trying to figure out what to do with social media. They were thinking maybe they could have their stores each set up a, a Facebook. Page and talk about their little league sponsorships and the like. But then along comes Twitter and boy did they find their voice, and it’s been their voice consistently. So nobody is surprised by it. Everybody’s expecting it. And that’s one of the big reasons people follow that account. Oh, and by the way, here’s a coupon for a dollar off of one of our burgers. It is, it’s been very effective for them. And yeah. Yeah from the get go, I think you’re, you have to establish a voice that is consistent with this kind of thing. Yeah. That makes total sense. And weave it into your brand strategy rather than just big events. You mentioned the Super Bowl is one example and there others, we see it here, although not to this extent that [00:08:00] I can recall during football. Match it at major championship events, for example, where there’s big audiences. So opportunity is there if you get it right. And Phil, marks of those who do well. Before we wrap this episode up, I want to. Offer a quick follow up to a story that we reported back on episode 442 on December 26th of last year about the kerfuffle between Justin Bald and Blake Lively. That has led to accusations and counter accusations and lawsuits and counter lawsuits. And the reason we reported on this is that Mr. Baldoni was represented by a public relations firm a publicity firm that engaged in some practices that. We’re dodgy to say the least. Now the Hollywood reporter is reporting that the situation has created a considerable [00:09:00] anxiety among Hollywood’s publicity class. According to several personal and studio publicists that the Hollywood reporter interviewed, the scandal has changed how representatives not involved with the case operate. One of them said, this will change the personal publicist game forever. 100%. When a client says, I want you to protect my reputation and get ahead of this story, or, I don’t like that headline, can you call the reporter? No way. If what you’re doing has ramifications for another celebrity, you’re now going to think that you could get sued. Another veteran publicist said from the start from the very start of the lively baldoni shit show, it was PR who made the situation worse. Changing the face of PR is what this veteran publicist said that the case is doing. The fiasco notes of Veteran Studio Publicist brings to mind something that publicists are taught at the very start of their careers. All comms folks are taught from day one. [00:10:00] Never put anything in writing you wouldn’t want on the front page of the New York Times. This has been a reminder of that all important rule. So some changes going on throughout our industry that have been sparked by this situation. Neville. Yeah. It ha it has, we did report on it. You’re right. So I wrote a blog post myself with further thoughts on it, and I’ve been following it as I’m sure you have. On the latest developments in the case. It’s still an ugly lawsuit situation without any doubt and the reputational damage to the main protagonist. Blake Lively. And Justin Baldoni is severe in B’S case. He’s suffered massive damage to his career in being ignored and dropped Lively’s, fallen foul of some missteps, I think in how she’s been talking online, including embracing, uh, taylor Swift is her support that, has she rejected that? So that was an interesting development. I saw recently that Lively’s husband, Brian Reynolds had been, come out [00:11:00] speaking for her that misfired a little bit. So it’s messy. I think though the thrust of what we talked about, certainly my post was the ethical. Thing regarding B’S PR team or agency or whoever they were. And indeed, we, I think we named the person who, whose name doesn’t spring to mind right now that was behind all of this. There was outrage on the ethics thing. And I suppose we could bring out the cynical hat. Put it on because that’s it. Nothing else has happened as a result that I’ve seen commented on publicly. The flurry at the start was how dreadful this is, and it’s bad for the industry, and they should know better. I’ve not seen anyone commenting further on that. So it’s all about the lawsuits and the fallout from that. That’s still developing, but. I think we ought to be looking at this still from the ethics point of view and I guess reminding us this is not how you should do this. But I’ve not seen anyone talking about that show. Yeah. Apparently the publicists themselves are talking about it because [00:12:00] they’re going to reject requests from their clients to engage in any of the kind of activity that, bald was looking for when all of this got started we’ll see how much that trickles over into the rest of the public relations industry when it comes to badmouthing your competition, for example. Yeah, doubtful that it’ll have that much of an impact, but. We’ll see. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve not seen you mentioned about publicists reported over this side of the Atlantic at all. So maybe it’s a US focus, I suspect, but it, it needs more than that and I dunno what would stimulate it. It’s probably. Not interesting enough for most people, it’s yet another case of something bad going on. And maybe it’ll get lively, pun not intended. Once it gets, if it is, if it does get to court or if some other development happens, but the accusations are really bad on both sides. The missteps on both sites seem also to be impacting this and what other work. People think about it. So I think Blake [00:13:00] Lively has lost some of the sympathy. She attracted at the very beginning with those missteps. And so mill advised advice on some of the behaviors. Balian in the meantime, as I mentioned earlier, has suffered big time from this. But he’s doubling down on his defending of it. So this thing’s got legs for a while. I think she. Yeah, exactly why most PR people now looking at this wouldn’t want to touch anything even close to it. , and that’ll be a 30 for this episode of four immediate release. Raw Transcript The post FIR #453: Humor Us — How Playful Teasing Strengthens Brand Relationships appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the practical uses and pitfalls of AI in agency lead generation and business development. They criticize the common misuse of AI for impersonal, high-volume outreach, which often results in off-putting and ineffective communication. Instead, they advocate for leveraging AI as a tool to enhance efficiency in tasks such as creating brand personas, drafting messages, and organizing proposals, while emphasizing the importance of maintaining a human touch in business development. The episode also highlights various AI tools and strategies to support agency growth without compromising personal relationships and quality. [read the transcript] The post ALP 263: Using AI the right way for agency biz dev appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

In this episode, Chip talks with Karen Swim of Solo PR Pro about the challenges faced by solos and small agency owners in the current chaotic environment. They discuss the impact of economic, political, and societal issues on public relations and communications, emphasizing the need for adaptability in business strategies. They highlight the importance of diversifying communication tactics beyond traditional media relations, focusing on owned and internal communications, and the value of continuous business development. The conversation also covers managing anxiety among employees, clients, and agency owners themselves, and the importance of peer support and professional community engagement. [read the transcript] The post CWC 105: Communicating in the face of chaos, confusion, and conflict (featuring Karen Swim) appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.

For nearly 20 years, Steve Rubel was a key figure at the global public relations and marketing consultancy firm Edelman, shaping its approach to media strategy and digital communication. A pioneer in blogging and digital PR from the early 2000s, Steve has long been at the forefront of emerging media trends, helping businesses navigate the ever-evolving landscape of content, journalism, and corporate communication. In December 2024, Steve’s journey at Edelman came to an unexpected close when he was affected by a reduction in force at the agency. He has embraced the transition as an opportunity to reconnect with industry peers, reflect on the broader PR profession, and explore his next chapter. His announcement on LinkedIn in December drew an overwhelming response, reinforcing the deep connections he has built throughout his career. Now, Steve is focused on one of the most untapped opportunities in communications: using AI and analytics to uncover hidden patterns in media. He believes that by leveraging these insights, PR professionals can craft smarter, more mediagenic narratives, improve media engagement, and redefine the future of thought leadership. He plans to help agencies adopt AI-powered media analytics and drive innovation in communication. His advice for PR professionals: stay curious, experiment with AI tools, and learn how to extract real value from data. In this FIR Interview, Steve joins Neville Hobson and Shel Holtz  – for the fifth time in an FIR Interview – to discuss the role of AI in modern communication, how data-driven storytelling is transforming PR, and why agencies must adapt to survive in an AI-driven industry. About Our Conversation Partner Steve Rubel is a media analyst, innovation catalyst, and communications strategist with a proven track record of identifying emerging trends and delivering actionable insights to help organizations thrive in the dynamic media landscape. Over a 19-year tenure at Edelman, he advised hundreds of global corporations and nonprofits, shaping strategies that drove meaningful impact. Beyond providing strategic counsel, he played a key role in advancing Edelman’s competitive edge by championing innovative capabilities, accelerating the adoption of new services, and positioning the firm as a leading authority on media. Follow Steve on Social Networks LinkedIn Bluesky Video Version on YouTube Verbatim Transcript @nevillehobson (00:02.766) Hi everyone and welcome to this FIR interview. I’m Neville Hobson in the UK. Steve Rubel (00:03.279) you Shel Holtz (00:09.072) And I’m Shel Holtz in Concord, California, and we have a very special guest with us today. Steve Rubel is joining us. Steve is one of our more regular guests on FIR Interviews, having appeared as we counted five times, the last one in 2013. So it has been a while. Welcome, Steve. It’s great to see you. Steve Rubel (00:31.692) Thank you, it’s an honor to be part of the Five Timers Club. So that’s an SNL reference for those who may not know. Shel Holtz (00:34.998) It is, the jacket’s in the mail. I asked ChatGPT to tell me about you, Steve. Just curious to see how accurate it would be and where it would focus. So I’m going to read these three paragraphs and you can let us know how ChatGPT did on this. says, Steve Rubel is a prominent public relations executive and professional blogger known for his expertise in media trends, digital culture and content strategy. He has held significant roles at Edelman. the world’s largest public relations firm, including serving as chief content strategist. In this capacity, Rubel has been responsible for advancing Edelman’s thinking on the evolving media ecosystem and helping clients develop innovative programs that blend paid, owned, and earned media. Throughout his career, Rubel has been a thought leader on the future of media consumption, advising clients such as Adobe, Starbucks, Samsung, and GE. He has emphasized the importance of companies operating in real time, like media organizations, leveraging technology to create compelling content and synchronize communications across various channels. In recent years, Rubell has focused on the potential of analytics and artificial intelligence to uncover hidden patterns within the media landscape. He believes that these insights can benefit communications professionals, the organizations they represent, and the press. By analyzing untapped data, companies can craft more compelling and mediogenic narrative platforms, develop content strategies, Steve Rubel (01:55.15) Amazingly accurate, maybe a little over the top in the flattery. And I would say just the one part that was wrong. Shel Holtz (02:08.231) and established thought leadership. So Steve, how’d Chachipiti do? @nevillehobson (02:19.726) Thanks for watching! Steve Rubel (02:21.696) He says that it was a prolific blogger. am a prolific blogger. I mean, it’s not true anymore. I was for many years, but not recently, but certainly at one time. At one time I was. Shel Holtz (02:30.867) Yeah, Yeah, media persuasion was a very influential blog in this day. Micro persuasion. @nevillehobson (02:33.676) Yeah. Steve Rubel (02:35.822) Well, micro persuasion and then later and then later for the later for adage and so forth. Yeah. @nevillehobson (02:38.51) Yeah. That was that was the the start of things back in those early days 2005 2004. Yeah. So in December, you wrote a post that really caught my eye like Whoa, on LinkedIn, announcing that you were leaving Edelman. And that you’ve been there nearly 19 years. Steve Rubel (02:45.454) Oh yeah, a long time ago. Steve Rubel (02:57.682) @nevillehobson (03:04.526) And you’ve received, I left a comment I know you did as well, Shell, but you’ve had like 200, nearly 300 comments from people on that post. It’s quite extraordinary outpouring of well-being, I think, and warmth all around. So that’s two months ago, and here we are having this conversation. I’m just curious, as Shell is, we both are really, what’s your journey now and leaving after 19 years? How was that? So, you know, what’s happening? Steve Rubel (03:37.381) Yeah, well, mean, first of all, I just want to say, just, you know, put a flag here that just it was a remarkable privilege to work for such a quality organization for for almost 20 years. And so I have nothing but love and respect for the Elman family. I was caught in a reduction in force that they made in the beginning of December. it was just shocking and disappointing, just it’s a business decision. And so I don’t in any way take it personally. like I said, I’m just grateful for every minute that I got to spend there. As you guys may or may not know, I was… I was very vocal and active online for many years and then about six, seven years ago, kind of a deliberate decision to step back and to really focus much more on element client work and teams. There’s no story behind it. I just kind of got tired of it and wanted to really do something different. I’m of the belief that the internet has a short memory. I put that up just to have something on the record, just to say that I wasn’t there anymore. And I was really blown away just by how people just were responding to that post, but also just the outreach I got. had people contact me from 30 years ago I worked with, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago. It was staggering. And from all ways, from LinkedIn, from email, from text messages and so forth. And that was something I totally did not expect at all. I just really wasn’t, I wasn’t ready for that. So I took some time and I said, okay, look, I’m going to use this time to just catch up with people because that’s something I really hadn’t done in the last few years. And so I just said, I’m going to book myself silly. I’m going to have one to three Zooms a day with people just to catch up and see what they’re doing. Steve Rubel (05:50.502) to kind of poke my head above ground and really kind of get a better understanding of the profession and where the profession’s at beyond Edelman because as great as Edelman is, it’s one view. And I really wanted to have a little bit of a broader perspective. So I took the time to do that. And then I took the time to also think about kind of what I want to do next, which we can talk about. And then Just to kind of, I mean, I had no infrastructure. mean, just to give you an idea of how, where did I was and planning to stay with Edelman for the run. I had no CV, had no, my LinkedIn was completely out of date. It was a mishmash of stuff. So I had to take time to go through the process of just emotionally and mentally coping with a layoff. And the community was just incredible. in helping me do that. And then also just had to kind of start to think about what’s next and which we can get into. so, and it was just, in their case, it was just a business decision and I have nothing but respect for them. Shel Holtz (07:04.457) Well, let’s talk about this issue that you’ve embraced, I guess, later in your career at Edelman and since then you’ve been doing more than just holding Zoom sessions because we know that you did a session for Muckrack on this topic of analytics and AI and their ability to transform the way communications professionals understand and engage with the media landscape. Can you elaborate on that? Because Certainly most of the people in PR and communications that I talk to about generative AI are trying to figure out how to write with it. Steve Rubel (07:40.26) So this is just absolutely what I’m most excited about today, So where I am in my AI journey was at, know, so ChatGPT launched in November of 22. I didn’t sign up at first because I was a little thrown off by the fact that the only way you could sign up was by giving your cell phone number. And I, you know, it was a little… And they were an unknown company at the time. so I, you know, you know, by some measures. And so I kind of felt weird about that. And I was like, and I viewed it as a, as a search tool, which I think I honestly, in my, know, I spent two years in Edelman’s AI task force working with and working with Edelman’s own media team on helping to kind of accelerate their use of, of, of AI. And I saw that a lot of people like me used it that way. And, you know, we had in the @nevillehobson (08:25.07) You Steve Rubel (08:37.091) The winter of 23, we had a freezing cold week here in New York. And I got a text message over the weekend from a colleague saying, hey, have you thought about using AI and what you do with analytics? And which I had been already doing for a couple of years at that point. And I said, hmm, no, I hadn’t thought of that. And so it was freezing. I didn’t want to go out. It was like 10 degrees Fahrenheit here or whatever it was. And so I stayed in the whole weekend and just started to… try different things. And I was like, wow, this and everyone has one of those moments I think was used one of these tools, but wow, this is such a powerful tool for helping me understand patterns in the media environment. So here’s what I do. I pulled down massive amounts of metadata out of MuckRack. know, the MuckRack, know, full disclosure, I got a license to MuckRack in exchange for some, you know, some promotional work, basically writing on LinkedIn with their content. So just full disclosure on that. it’s not a paid relationship per se. The data, though, I’ve just become a fan. I’ve known Greg Gellant for a million years. He’s the CEO. But the data is so rich. And I started to pull down the data out of MuckRack, the article data and the metadata, and began to use a whole bunch of different AI tools. analyze it. And what I found was, know, are, know, earned media remains the bedrock of PR. I mean, PR has, you know, and communications as you both know and have chronicled, has become so much more multifaceted now. It’s so much more diversified. It’s so many different types of activities. But earned media remains the bedrock of it. I mean, I find, you know, it’s often the starting point for a lot of client relationships that extend out in other ways. And, you know, everyone is challenged with trying to break through in this environment because it’s just, you know, it’s getting, first of all, less reporters, less outlets in some cases, you know, a lot of topics that are just, you know, high volume and drying out the news environment, know. Steve Rubel (10:57.759) big rocks, you will, whether it be Trump or sustainability or DEI or whatever, pop culture. I there’s just so many different things that the media is writing about that often the aperture for clients can be narrow. And that’s evergreen problem. And so I, in the last several years of Edelman and now on my own, as to stay fresh as I explore different opportunities, is I’ve just seen that you can… @nevillehobson (11:05.644) Hmm. Steve Rubel (11:25.887) Take that data and you can bring it into AI and manipulate it and really understand patterns such as to really kind of quantify, for example, what are the themes that a particular writer is writing about, an outlet is writing about, an index of outlets or around a topic. So you could take a topic like for AI, for example, pull down thousands of stories, not the full text, but the metadata and use the AI tools to manipulate that to really understand the patterns. and then compare different quarters and different periods. So you can start to understand where a story is going or a single reporter to understand where that particular reporter is going. And what I found is not only is that useful for nuts and bolts kind of, know, brass tacks, earned media applications, but so many companies, you know, want to develop executive visibility programs or thought leadership programs or narratives that are consistent with the media environment and Mediagenic. And when you look at that data set and use AI to manipulate that, that stuff gets to be so powerful because in theory, it’s a triple win. It’s a win for your stakeholder, whether that’s an internal stakeholder or a client. It’s a win for the press because you’re creating a better story that’s consistent with what they’re writing about on the mark, which has long been a complaint of theirs. And it serves you because you’re going to be much more successful. And so I am just so bullish on the use of AI and analytics to understand the media environment at a very granular or a very wide aperture. And I find that this is completely untapped in the industry right now, completely untapped. And it has the potential if applied at scale. to be incredibly useful, probably more so on the agency level, but certainly on the corporate level as well. @nevillehobson (13:30.782) That’s very interesting. It makes me think that the broad topic of AI is featured in every episode of our podcast for at least a year and half, literally. And new angles are emerging every time we have a conversation. This is the latest one. And I’m reminded, Steve, actually, the interview we did prior to talking to you today with Sylvia Camby a couple of weeks back that was published last week, she talked about this very topic, finding patterns. She talked about the kind of move from beyond generative AI to what she calls curation AI. And she talks a bit about how AI can provide communicators with better insights, deeper insights, and how messages are received and acted upon. She reckons that communicators who’ve worked with enterprise social networks like Yammer and so forth back in the day have very transferable skills as a result of that. So it got me just to direct, I guess, the question that arises in my mind. If, and I’ve heard listening to what you’re saying, if AI driven analytics reveal the hidden patterns in media landscape, what, what do you think are the biggest opportunities for communicators generally? And I’m wondering what they need to shift to kind of get a handle on this is something you absolutely need to pay attention to. And so how do you think this shifts the role of PR pros and shaping narratives? Steve Rubel (15:00.11) Hugely. so, I mean, the inspiration for this, I mean, started for me during the lockdowns of the pandemic, when my role changed, just the nature of just the way, you know, the travel stopped and so forth. And I’ve just been, I think you both know that I’m and forgive me here for the Europeans, but I’m a huge sports fan, particularly a baseball fan. And we’re not getting too wonky there. You know, I’ve just been fascinated how analytics have come around and revolutionized any sport, whether it be football, know, NFL football, know, soccer, football, you know, baseball, golf, tennis, you name it. I’ve completely revolutionized it because teams or individuals understand the statistics and the analytics about how their opponents behave. The media is not our opponent, but the media is certainly a gatekeeper. And so one of the things that I think is most powerful here, so I just looked at that and said, what did they do that we could be applying in our world? And one of the things that I think about with the press is that They’re really good at writing about analyzing and writing about the problems in a particular, know, or what I would call the critical issues in a particular field. know, one of the critical issues around AI, one of the critical issues around DEI, mean, you and those are changing every week, every day. And it may not be, you know, the entire totality of what they write about around that topic. They’re writing about the solutions as well. But I find that if you are able to identify and quantify the patterns in the critical issues, what are the problems that they are writing about regularly? And you can position your organization, your solution, your intellectual property as solutions to those particular issues. Or you have a point of view or some way of bringing something Steve Rubel (17:14.974) some more perspective around those issues. And those issues are written about at scale. You’re going to be way more successful because you are, you’re not, you know, so much of, of earned media for the 35 years I’ve been in this business is trial and error. It’s knocking on doors. mean, it’s relationships, it’s understanding people, but it’s a lot of trial and error. It’s a lot of waste. It’s necessary waste. but it’s waste. How do we reduce that? How do we reduce that? Well, I mean, that’s where if you use the analytics to quantify and the AI is useful because it’s able to read huge volumes of information and statistically make patterns out of this. And I’ve mastered the prompts required and the different tools required to do that. But I think that has a transformation in helping us. in communications. And even if your output is not media, your output is social media, your output is content for your website or LinkedIn or whatever it is. There’s a lot of work done in social listening to understand what people are talking about online. There’s a lot of great tools for that that are advancing every day, but there’s not a lot of work being done to look at what’s going on in the quote unquote professional content creator community and what working journalists are doing. and using that signal set in addition to the others to helping to really shape content strategies. And so I just think that that is just absolute, probably one of the biggest opportunities with AI right now for communications professionals. Maybe not the biggest, but one of them for sure. Shel Holtz (19:01.973) Steve, pictures and catchers report tomorrow. Steve Rubel (19:05.614) I’m going, I’m going, I can’t wait. @nevillehobson (19:08.142) You Shel Holtz (19:09.845) You gave some great examples of how analytics can shape a pitch, for example, to a journalist. I think what a lot of people are going to be inclined to do is what you have recommended. And then the next step would be to have the AI produce the pitch. And there are a lot of people out there who are talking about AI slop. Chris Penn talks about it. Jeff Livingston, Greg Verdino. It’s a real prominent topic right now that the internet is being overtaken, overwhelmed by AI generated content. How can organizations balance the use of data-driven insights with that need for having a human in the loop? And what are the ethical considerations around? Steve Rubel (20:03.065) Yep. So I don’t think there’s any ethical concerns about the analytics in helping you form the strategies. The ethical concerns are in the content generation after that. Shel Holtz (20:05.877) leveraging AI and analytics in developing these strategies. Steve Rubel (20:21.584) I don’t think there’s any kind of ethical concerns necessarily around using AI to analyze mass quantities of data unless I’m missing something. But on pitching side of things, I think you can’t let the AI take away your humanity. look, mean, sorry, another baseball metaphor, but it still requires, no amount of statistics is going to substitute for talent. And Aaron Judge has to go up and hit a baseball. Yes. Yes. You missed the big one in the World Series, but that’s another story. so the talent and the expertise and the humanity is still absolutely necessary. Knowing journalists, having relationships, building those relationships, none of that goes away. Shel Holtz (20:54.773) has to catch one too. Steve Rubel (21:18.394) So to me, it’s use the analytics and the insights, which I would generate for teams. And then they would then, and with prescriptive advice on what to do with it, I still think you have to write your pitch the same way you always write your pitch. You might take a line here or there, but I really wouldn’t recommend it. I think the way to do it is to write your pitch in your own voice, the way you’ve always have done it because it’s worked for a long time, in some cases, whether it’s five years or 20 years or whatever it is. Even if you’re new to this, it’s a year. It’s your own humanity and building those relationships are still absolutely necessary. But then I think, you know, taking the pitch and bringing it into an AI tool, whether that be Microsoft Copilot or, you know, chat GPT, or I’ve actually been using the writing tools built into the Apple intelligence writing tools that are built into the iOS and the Mac, not for pitches, but just, for emails I’m writing and so forth. And just having it, you know, clean up, strengthen it. One of the things I like to do, for example, is to use the AI to improve the subject lines. Because I will bring in the pitch, you know, or would recommend to teams that they bring in the pitch into an AI tool and ask it based on email marketing best practices. How would you tailor my subject line, which I’ve already provided to make it stronger? Right? And look, you might look at that and you’re going to say, it’s too much written like an e-commerce email. But you might pick up a trick or two that maybe there’s a word ordering where you move one word up, so it’s a little bit earlier in the preview, or some sort of optimization that augments what you do. So I think the use of AI to augment, to take your work from a five or a six to a seven or an eight, which I did with the analytics. three years ago, definitely took my work, not to a 10, but certainly took it from, I would say from a six to an eight. And the same thing applies. And I think that to me is the opportunity with teaching teams how to do that. And to do that, so, I think you could, depending on the size of your organization, you could do that at a corporate or team level, but it works best in an individual level where you sit down with one or two or three people. @nevillehobson (23:22.766) you Steve Rubel (23:44.545) And I did this at Edelman and say, what do you do all day? And to then provide expertise and advice on how to use the AI to augment that work to make it even stronger. @nevillehobson (24:03.406) interesting. think we talked recently, Shailena, in I think our monthly episode, the last one we did, the long four-monthly one, about the evolution of generative AI within the profession, in the PR profession, where surveys are showing that take-up and use is in the 70-plus, 80-plus percent. The days are gone, I think, when we saw a couple of years back a survey that where a quarter of those surveyed. Steve Rubel (24:20.301) . @nevillehobson (24:30.476) said they would never ever under any circumstances use artificial intelligence to PR work. That’s vanished, thankfully. Common sense has really prevailed, but people have, I think, acquired a better understanding of some of these tools. And what you’ve explained there, what you mentioned there, Steve, is something that I see happening. I do it myself. AI like chat GPT, Microsoft co-pilots, all the ones that we know of, are great at research. So I tend to regard them as my research assistants, the same for search as well. Providing the skill, if you will, to do, to trawl through and make sense of huge amounts of data, structured and unstructured, doesn’t matter, and present you the results. Your job is still to make sure it’s accurate. And that’s a whole different, I think, conversation that we probably still need to have because… I see this coming up a lot in conferences that I have with people that you can get all this input and great, you write your report. No, you’ve got to sift it. You’ve got to understand it yourself. So in the context of this latest idea of revealing hidden patterns in the media landscape, cetera, do you think, you know, AI, the tools are now detecting trends directly themselves and with limited Steve Rubel (25:26.955) . @nevillehobson (25:56.847) prompting, no, you don’t have to write a lengthy script to tell it what you want it to do for you. The predicting new cycles, what do you think about the effect on companies? What rethinking do organizations, including our profession, if you like, the approach to media relations, and indeed the whole notion of concept of thought leadership, what changes need to be front of mind there? Steve Rubel (26:05.526) Okay. So first of all, I think that some of the uptake, what people may not appreciate is that some of the uptake, the reason why it’s jumped so much has been the acceleration of enterprise ready tools, whether it be ChatGPT Enterprise or Microsoft Copilot or Google Gemini for Workspace or Claude having an enterprise ready tool. So I think the enterprise, some of the concerns in the beginning were because the technology was nascent, but some of it also was because the tools weren’t really necessarily there to protect corporate information in the beginning, and there was a lot of concern about that. I think some of that, each day that goes away and there’s more more adoption of those tools. And so I think that’s part of what drove some of the uptake. In terms of… So I guess you’re asking more about workflow, Neville, and like, how do you, you what does this mean for, you know, for corporations overall? @nevillehobson (27:28.47) Yeah, I would say because some of it can seem a little esoteric, I think, at times when we talk about patterns in data and the average communicator is looking at a report they got to do, or the pitch they got to prepare, or the workflow on their desk right now, how would this impact them and what do they need to do to do it? Steve Rubel (27:35.922) Yeah. Steve Rubel (27:46.266) So I think the most important thing is that, when people first start using these tools, there’s a hope that they can just be the oracle of everything. And go in and help me identify the 20 most important people who are writing about AI in public relations. Help me understand the storylines. And I always tell people that the AI tools will always give you an answer. They won’t say, don’t know, right? If you try to get them to say they don’t know, sometimes that’s a fun exercise. They often will not say that they don’t know. They are programmed to give you an answer. And that’s extremely enchanting and also extremely deceiving. When I find where it works best, is when you take something that you have, either something that you have collected on your own, in my case it’s data, or something that you have already an inventory of, whether it be PDFs or speeches from an executive or content from a website or a whole bunch of, it could be a large corpus of text or it could be something small, or it could be a pitch, a press release. you know, a short term piece of content that you’re going to be creating. And when you bring that information into the AI tools and ask it to improve it and ask for prompts and ask it to, you know, get you to think of things that maybe you haven’t thought of asking. I think that’s a really important thing is to really not just go in with your own, you know, ideas on what you want to get out of it, but to be a little bit more open-ended. and to bring it in and say, could you tell me about this? How can I improve this? right now, today, that’s all in the prompts. It’s just getting, which I’m sure you guys have talked about all the time, is getting the prompts right. In the future, that won’t be the case. I don’t know how long exactly, but whether it’s a year or two years or whatever it is, especially through agentic AI and things of that nature, it’s gonna start to understand and personalize. Steve Rubel (30:02.947) those requests for you and bring that to you. So I find that for the most part, the AI tools are best when you bring in your own lunch, so to speak. There are a couple of exceptions. I have been extremely impressed, and I’m gonna write about this on LinkedIn, with Google’s deep research. I think it’s called deep research. Shel Holtz (30:29.173) Mm-hmm. Steve Rubel (30:29.348) which has the same name as what ChatGPG just launched a couple of weeks ago, which I haven’t, I’m not paying for the pro version yet, so I’m not forking over $200 a month yet. But I have the plus version, but I’ll wait for that to come out. as I go out and I’ve been, no secret, I’ve been actively interviewing with agencies. And we talk about the agency business. I have been using Google Deep Research to prepare for interviews. @nevillehobson (30:29.422) you @nevillehobson (30:38.478) Thank Steve Rubel (30:57.027) And so I will say, am interviewing with such and such company, because I have to be honest, I haven’t really talked to other agencies for many years. I mean, and I’m going in and I’m meeting with the CEO of this agency or CEO of that agency, write a 3000 word report for me or whatever it is that helps me understand that agency’s priorities, their business, their culture, what the CEOs have been talking about. And I found that that stuff is extremely extraordinarily useful and you know, and it’s and it’s worth the you know, the 10 or 20 bucks I think I I got some kind of deal that I’m paying for Google Gemini advanced to do that. And so I think there are situations like that where you can it can act as the Oracle where you go in and you ask an open-ended question and you get back research with a lot of links so you can go verify everything and you know, less risk of hallucinations. That’s one aspect of it. But the whole other aspect of it is bringing in your existing assets, ideally in an enterprise protected environment, if you’re in an organization of any size, even if you’re not in a small slice firm too, you probably want to do that too. And begin to ask that questions and improvements on that piece of content. That’s where I think the power right now is today for the most part. @nevillehobson (31:58.061) Hmm. Shel Holtz (32:21.145) Well, Steve, it’s great having you with us. You may recall from your five previous appearances here that we always ask the same final question, which is what question didn’t we ask that you wish we had? Steve Rubel (32:37.86) Well, I don’t know if this is really more too wonky for you guys, but I think that just the nature of the agency business right now and where that’s at. so there, and I’m not sure how much you cover that, but the, know, there’s four major holding companies and, you know, two of them are larger, two of the largest ones are merging, you know, later this year. And so there’s going to be three holding companies. And so it’s going to be WPP, it’s going to be Omnicom and PulvoSys. And then you have Edelman, which is a large independent and the largest. And then you have a whole array of smaller and mid-sized firms. And there’s questions overall about AI’s impact on the agency business. There’s a business model that is largely, yes, it’s retainer in some cases, but it’s often it’s built around billable hours. Yes, those retainers are calculating against billable hours. And this is not just in public relations. It’s gonna be very important on the advertising side as well on the media buying side and so forth. It’s gonna be highly disruptive. AI is gonna be highly disruptive. So I would say that I am extremely bullish though about the future of the agencies because I think there’s still a absolute need for shared expertise, whether it be, I mean, I saw the abundance of resources that I don’t have on any topic. could find anybody in the network who knew something about the most esoteric thing, they were there. And even in a mid-size firm, the same thing, you get that benefit. In a small firm too, because they tend to specialize. So I think that the agency business is gonna go through some serious disruptions with AI. The business model is gonna have to change, but the opportunity to… to train and develop people and young people to me. I’m very excited about that in my next role. And so the things I’m looking at doing are, one is taking this media analytics approach and bringing it somewhere else and to really build on that with their expertise. Two is to really work as an innovation catalyst and help them really accelerate with their adoption and use of AI and not just generative, but overall, I would say augmented AI, if you will. Steve Rubel (35:00.134) And three is just to be a calm strategist. think that there’s never been a greater time in need for that given the chaos in the world right now, not just in the United States, but worldwide. So I think that the future of the agency business is bright and I’m looking at everything, but I’m excited to be staying and to be coaching and to stay in the agency world. @nevillehobson (35:24.11) terrific. So I’ve got a final question. That, yeah, yeah, it might seem an odd one, but there’s a kind of hit you in the the immediacy for a quick answer, which is, look back over the last 20 years since Micro Persuasion Days, since that Businessweek cover on blogs, from there to now, how would you sum up your journey in those 20 years? Steve Rubel (35:27.086) Sure. I mean, we could talk forever, I’m sure. Steve Rubel (35:45.722) my goodness. Less hair, does that count? I mean, I didn’t have a lot of hair then either. How would I sum up my journey in 20 years? Well. @nevillehobson (35:55.791) Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Shel Holtz (35:55.797) Hmm Steve Rubel (36:06.908) I would say I’ve always been, my whole life, well, mean, for most of my life, I was always fascinated by two different things. I was fascinated by technology and I was fascinated by news and journalism. I was a journalism major. And then I became fascinated with public relations and the communications in the early 1990s. And so I’ve been just, those three, the Venn diagram of those three things has just fueled my entire career. And the reason why I ended up in Business Week, which was incredibly fortunate and certainly catapulted me into an amazing role and introduced me to Richard Edelman and so forth, was because I just saw that I was reading blogs by people like Dave Weiner or Robert Scoble years ago. I said, know, or Docs for Alls. And these are all names that people may not know, but certainly you should read up on them. Oh, yeah, you guys know that for sure. Shel Holtz (37:03.007) We know. Steve Rubel (37:05.74) And I said, you know, this is unbelievable that these writers have their own voice, that they’re acting like journalists and not journalists. They work for corporations in some cases. And what’s going on here? And that’s scratched an itch. And I just started to mess around and that led to blogging and that led to, you know, becoming, you know, pretty well known in my industry at the time. And then, you know, I chased that later on with understanding shifts in the media business and just how sponsored content was coming in and really disrupting stuff. So I was looking at, at, you know, native advertising and also brands becoming content creators and said, okay, what does that mean? And that scratched a niche to just know more and more and more about that. And then now it’s AI, right? And analytics. And look, I mean, I, I didn’t touch Excel for the first 30 years of my career. And I, know, two, two, three years ago, I sat by the, you know, by the pool and I, and I, you know, I read a book on how, and so I’m 55 years old. And so. If I had to, so yes, it’s those three things, but if I had to sum it up is I have an insatiable curiosity. I am always trying to learn. I’m always nervous about what I don’t know. And I’m not expecting anybody to teach me. I’m expecting for me to just learn as much as I can through reading. And so I am constantly reading and trying new things just to stay at the edge of the trends. and what’s happening and to anticipate what’s next. And so I think that where I, mean, those skills, which I think anybody can do have allowed me to really be good at understanding what I think is going to be next and what may not be, what might just be a fad. Shel Holtz (38:46.825) Sounds like great advice for anybody in this industry, For listeners who would like to read your writing and be in touch, how can they find you? Steve Rubel (38:49.228) It absolutely is critical today, yes. Steve Rubel (38:58.146) So I’m going be doing more. got time. And at least for the moment until I get scooped up, hopefully. I am going to be active on one and only one channel. That’s LinkedIn. And I mean, I might do some stuff on Blue Sky. You can follow me there. I mean, I haven’t posted anything yet. mean, I’ve engaged a couple of people on some sports stuff, but that’s it. And, you know, but I would say right now you could follow me on LinkedIn and I will be, you know, I’m going to be posting. be doing different analyses there using the MockRack data. I’m going to be sharing tips and techniques on how to be more effective as a communicator and staying ahead of these technologies. And I’m open to ideas. But I just see the power of that channel. took it for granted. And I think that’s where I’m going to be doing things. It’s linkedin.com slash en slash steve. Shel Holtz (39:51.487) Great. Well, Steve, thanks very much for your time. It’s been great. Steve Rubel (39:53.921) Thank you. Thanks for having me. @nevillehobson (39:54.329) Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. The post Steve Rubel on AI, Media Analytics, and the Future of PR appeared first on FIR Podcast Network.