
The Starfish and the Church
The Starfish and the Church podcast is a mix of interviews and storytelling where hosts Rob Wegner and Lance Ford explore a paradigm shift away from modern, hierarchical structures of leadership to a radical Jesus-centered, starfish approach. Like the podcast, check out more at thestarfishandthespirit.com
Latest episodes

Mar 5, 2025 • 17min
Bonus Conversation: Alan Hirsch: The Six P's of Incarnational Mission - Walking the Way of Jesus
Alan brought the heat and light in the Starfish Accelerator , pouring out his heart on Incarnational Mission.Now, it's here for you—to challenge, inspire, and equip both you and those you disciple and serve. What does it mean to truly live the mission of Jesus? In this episode, we unpack the Six P’s of Incarnational Mission—Presence, Proximity, Prevenience, Powerlessness, Passion, and Proclamation—as a framework for disciple-making that flows from the way of Jesus.We explore how to root ourselves in a place, embrace servanthood, and join what God is already doing. Plus, we share practical next steps to live this out.👉 Dig deeper with the companion article at starfishyou.substack.com👉 Resources Mentioned: Relational Mapping | Mapping Your NeighborhoodListen in and let’s put this into practice. 🎧 #IncarnationalMission #DiscipleMaking #StarfishAndTheChurch

Feb 26, 2025 • 28min
How We Train Matters as Much As What We Train
Join the Starfish Substack for free.If our training methods don’t look like Jesus’ way of making disciples, why do we expect Jesus-like results?In this Bonus Conversation, we dive into a topic that is easy to overlook but is critical for the multiplication of disciples and leaders—pedagogy.That’s right. We’re talking about how we train people, not just what we train them in. Why? Because the way we train people shapes the very culture of our disciple-making efforts. We need a pedagogy that matches our mission.📄 We’re dropping a follow-up article unpacking KC Underground’s Pedagogy, and hope to hear about yours as well.

Feb 20, 2025 • 21min
Bonus Episode: Five Coals That Cultivate a Culture of Extraordinary Prayer
Is a prayer movement something we’re waiting for—or something Jesus is already leading?In this episode, we unpack the five coals that ignite and sustain a culture of extraordinary prayer. We start with the story of Esther, an elderly woman whose hidden life of intercession shaped generations. From there, we explore what it takes to cultivate a movement where prayer isn’t just preparation for the work—it is the work.🔥 Personal Embodiment – Are we modeling the prayer life we call others to?🔥 Paradigmatic Frameworks – How do we shift our understanding of prayer from routine to mission-fueled?🔥 Practical Tools – Are our prayer rhythms simple, reproducible, and Spirit-led?🔥 Public Rhythms – How do we weave prayer into everyday life—personally and corporately?🔥 Permission to Prune, Produce, and Reproduce – Are we making space for new expressions of prayer to multiply?Through real stories, scripture, and practical insights, we challenge you to step deeper into a life of abiding, contending, and multiplying prayer.Join us as we rediscover what it means to wake up to the movement Jesus is already leading. Head over to https://starfishyou.substack.com/🎧 Listen now and share your reflections in the comments!

Feb 6, 2025 • 19min
Bonus: Starfish Tools - Relational Spheres of Jesus with Rich Robinson
One of the powerful disciple-making tools we’ve been exploring this month in the Starfish Accelerator is the Relational Spheres of Jesus—a framework that helps us map out our relational world based on Jesus’ own pattern of ministry. Recently, Rich Robinson walked us through this tool with remarkable clarity, helping us see how Jesus intentionally structured His relationships and how we can do the same.
This tool is endlessly relevant for disciple-makers in all contexts and all forms of the church. For those in traditional church settings looking for a practical way to transition into a incarnational disciple-making paradigm, this tool can serve as a launching pad. It offers a simple but profound way to rethink how we invest in relationships and organize our life and time for mission of disciple-making.

Jan 24, 2025 • 26min
Hot Takes: The New Apostolic Reformation, The White House, and The Atlantic
Join the the Starfish Substack for free. You'll gain access to you’ll gain access to practical wisdom, articles, tools, assessments and insights that foster your growth as a Starfish Leader
In this Hot Takes episode, Rob Wegner, Alan Hirsch, Lance Ford, and Chris Caputo explore the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and its implications for leadership and the church. Prompted by the Atlantic article, “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows,” they discuss the influence of NAR's dominion theology, its ties to political power, and the distortion of fivefold ministry into hierarchical authority.
The conversation unpacks the dangers of power-centric leadership and the profound need for collaborative, servant-hearted approaches that reflect Jesus' way of humility. They emphasize a shift from dominance to relational accountability, with a call for emotionally and spiritually mature leadership.
Stay tuned for the companion article tomorrow at he Starfish Substack:

Jan 13, 2025 • 36min
Liminality, Liberation, and Leadership: Lessons on Movement from the Black and Brown Church in the West
Join the the Starfish Substack for free. You'll gain access to you’ll gain access to practical wisdom, articles, tools, assessments and insights that foster your growth as a Starfish LeaderIn the latest episode of The Starfish and the Church Podcast, Rob Wegner sits down with Dele Okuwobi, founder of the Wonder Association, to explore the profound lessons the Black and Brown church in America offers for movemental leadership. This conversation reframes the way we think about movement DNA (mDNA), inviting us to look closer to home for inspiration instead of always gazing overseas. Learn to Build Communitas Embrace Prophetic Leadership Integrate THICK Kingdom Theology Seek Mutual Partnerships Adopt a Decentered Approach Engage Locally for mDNA Insights Understanding the historical context of oppression is crucial for effective ministry. APEST assessments can help identify and mitigate the weaponization of gifts. Resources are being developed to better understand and utilize APEST dynamics. Deconstructing and reconstructing core doctrines is essential for modern faith communities.

Jan 9, 2025 • 19min
Bonus Conversation: Transition Small Groups to Microchurches...Sort Of. Maybe.
In this bonus conversation, Rob Wegner and Brian Johnson tackle a pressing question heard from many church leaders in recent years: Is it possible to transition small groups to microchurches? Drawing from years of experience and coaching, they share candid insights and hard-earned wisdom (also called mistakes and failure) about the challenges and opportunities involved in this shift.
This discussion builds on themes from the yesterday’s article Transitioning Small Groups into Microchurches, offering practical advice, personal stories, and thoughtful reflections on the cultural and spiritual dynamics at play.
Here are a few highlights:
Breaking the Social Contract: Why the foundational promises of small groups—community and content—differ from the mission-driven identity of microchurches and how this impacts transitions.
The Long Game: Transitioning isn’t a quick fix. It requires three to five years of patient investment, starting with a few committed leaders and multiplying over time.
Parallel Pathways: Instead of trying to overhaul small groups, Rob and Brian describe how Westside Family Church created a separate track for microchurches, allowing both systems to thrive side by side.
Identity and Mission: Helping small group leaders embrace a new identity as disciple-makers and missionaries, focusing on planting the gospel in their unique networks of relationships.
The Role of the Spirit: Encouragement for leaders to trust incremental progress, celebrate small wins, and recognize that even modest shifts toward mission and incarnation can bear significant fruit.
This conversation is an inspiring call to reimagine how we approach disciple-making and church formation. Whether you’re exploring microchurches for the first time or seeking to deepen your practice, Rob and Brian’s insights are a valuable guide.
🎧 Catch the full video above and join the conversation in the comments.📄 Related article: The Difference Between Small Groups and Microchurches.
📚 Learn more about disciple-making environments and microchurch multiplication at Kansas City Underground.
#Microchurches #DiscipleMaking #Leadership #Starfish #ChurchInnovation
The Difference Between Small Groups and MicrochurchesStarfishyoU·

Dec 19, 2024 • 43min
The Story the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Podcast DIDN'T Tell You (Jeff Vanderstelt)
In this episode of The Starfish and the Church, we had a powerful conversation with my friend Jeff Vanderstelt, who stepped into the chaos after Mark Driscoll’s departure from Mars Hill.
This is the story the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Podcast chose not to tell you.
We covered:
What really happened after the rise and fall
The painful realities of spiritual abuse
How shared leadership and humility brought healing
The role of naming trauma and creating space for recovery
What redemption looks like when Jesus—not a personality—is the hero
Jeff shares how he led with love, walked alongside wounded people, and helped a broken community rediscover health, unity, and mission. He also challenges us to be “with people in their pain,” echoing the beauty of Emmanuel—God with us.

Dec 4, 2024 • 41min
How Leaders Heal - Addressing Trauma in Us and Our Communities (Chuck DeGroat and Michelle Wegner)
Join the Starfish Substack. Healing what's within. How do we heal? Where do we begin? What questions do we need to ask? In this thought-provoking conversation, Rob Wegner, Lance Ford, and Michelle and Chuck DeGroat delve into the profound themes of healing, trauma, and connection within the church. Drawing from their personal experiences and theological insights, they explore the concept of fullness as described in Ephesians, the importance of self-awareness in leadership, and the transformative role of compassion in the healing process.The dialogue highlights the often-overlooked trauma faced by church leaders and their families, the wisdom that older generations bring, and the significance of listening to our bodies as a guide to healing. Through this journey, they emphasize the power of experiencing God as a secure and non-anxious presence, and how this experience equips us to become healers for others.Whether you're a leader, a healer, or someone seeking wholeness, this conversation is a must-watch. Discover practical wisdom and transformative insights to help navigate your own journey toward healing and connection.

Nov 26, 2024 • 25min
Bonus Conversation: Four Mistakes Early Microchurch Practitioners Make
In this bonus conversation, Rob Wegner and Brian Johnson dive into the heart of what it means to navigate the challenges of cultivating networks of microchurches. Drawing on years of experience and plenty of missteps, they reflect on the key lessons captured in the *Four Mistakes Early Microchurch Practitioners Make* article.
The discussion offers a candid, behind-the-scenes look at their journey—sharing practical wisdom, personal anecdotes, and gentle warnings for those stepping into the work of planting microchurches.
Here are a few highlights:
- The Temptation to Go Too Fast: Why rushing to “flip the switch” on microchurches often leads to frustration and missed opportunities for deep disciple-making.
- Starting with Structures Instead of Stories: How building a website or organization before truly living out disciple-making can pull practitioners away from their hyper-local mission fields.
- Avoiding the Hero Complex: The importance of decentralizing leadership and making room for diverse voices from the very beginning.
- Returning to the Basics: A reminder that intimacy with Jesus, prayer, and repentance aren’t just starting points—they are the ongoing foundation of all movement.
The conversation is a compelling call to slow down, stay present, and root deeply in the work of the Spirit. Whether you’re an early practitioner or a seasoned leader, this conversation is a must-watch for anyone passionate about microchurch multiplication.
Catch the full video above and lean into these lessons as you continue your journey.