We're Not Marketers

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention. Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling.What to gather in this convo: • How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel) • Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges" • The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley • What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership • Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader • The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers • How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging • Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there) • The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams • What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see • The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everythingTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun"17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received26:00 Budget Allocation Debates28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise39:00Disagree and Commit PrincipleHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Marketers have become glorified executors, and, Nick Power isn't here to sugarcoat it. The lowercase LinkedIn legend– who also leads marketing at Noun Project– joins us to explain why your strategy docs are bullshit, why he'd delete his digital presence tomorrow, and how running five miles beats any marketing framework. We talk anti-billionaire content, why brevity is the ultimate flex in marketing, and how the entire tech industry turned marketing into a commodity. Warning: This episode might make you quit your job or completely rethink your career—either way, you're welcome.What we cover: • Why Nick Power thinks 90% of marketers aren't actually marketing anymore • The shocking reason a LinkedIn influencer would delete his entire digital presence • How to fit an entire strategy into ONE SENTENCE (seriously) • Why your positioning docs are expensive PDFs nobody reads • The anti-billionaire marketing philosophy that's actually about mental health • What happens when you've never worked with a product marketer (spoiler: you survive) • The grind culture lie that's killing your creativity • Why running 5 miles beats any marketing framework • How to give readers "the gift of surprise" in every post • The real reason marketing became a commodity in techTimestamps 01:00 Hot Guest Introduction & Lower Case Legend02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:22 Nick's Controversial Take: "Very Few Marketers Are Marketers"03:00 The System Problem: Executors vs. Strategists04:00 Marketing as a Commoditized Craft05:00 Nick's Background: CPG to B2B Tech06:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins: Digital Presence vs. Family07:00 The Mixed Bag of Online Attention08:30 Zoom Calls vs. Person Captivity10:00 Content Strategy: Wake Up and Write11:30 LinkedIn Trolling & Negative Engagement13:00 Quitting Social Media Discussion15:00 The State of Marketing Salaries17:30 Marketing Budget Allocation Debate19:00 Personal Branding vs. Company Branding21:00 The Death of Blogging23:00 Keyword Strategy & SEO Reality Check25:00 Marketing Advice You'd Give Your Younger Self27:00 Worst Marketing Experience Stories29:00 Firing Yourself from Marketing31:00 Career Identity Crisis Discussion33:00 Breaking Down Nick's Content Strategy35:00 The Art of Brevity: One-Sentence Philosophy36:00 Anti-Billionaire Content Explained37:00 Late-Stage Capitalism & Grind Culture Critique38:00 Coping Mechanisms: Running, Music, Kids39:00 From Surf to Run: Finding Flow State40:00 Mental Health in Marketing41:00 Closing & Noun Project ShoutoutHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing—marketing's favorite misunderstood stepchild or just expensive project management in disguise? Pranav Piyush (ex-Dropbox, ex-Bill, founder of Paramark) joins the crew to drop some inconvenient truths: most PMMs are stuck doing thankless work because nobody knows who actually runs the business. We're talking hypothesis-driven thinking, why talking to customers isn't optional, the statistical traps that make your research garbage, and why that rebrand probably won't save your pipeline. Also:The "HIPPO problem" destroying 90% of PMM effectivenessThe three data pitfalls that make your research worthless (cherry-picking is just the start)Why statistics courses should be mandatory for every marketerThe hypothesis-based approach that turns opinions into provable strategiesWhy measuring creative team productivity is a complete waste of timeThe incrementality blind spot: 99% of B2B orgs have no clue about their marketing ROIActivity metrics you should ignore vs. the engagement signals that actually matterIf you've ever felt like a glorified PowerPoint factory or wondered why your data never wins arguments, this episode will either validate your existence or make you question everything. Either way, you'll finally understand why the role exists in the first place.TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:37 Introducing the Guest: Pranav Piyush00:46 Pranav's Background and Career Highlights01:25 Personal Anecdotes and Adventures02:40 Origins of the Podcast03:37 The Role of Product Marketers07:04 Challenges in Product Marketing17:40 The Importance of Data in Marketing24:00 Understanding Positioning and Messaging24:45 Qualitative vs Quantitative Research in Messaging25:04 The Role of Customer Research30:13 Activity Metrics: What Really Matters?34:29 Creative Work and Measurement37:31 The Importance of Incrementality43:58 Rebrands: Are They Worth It?47:11 Final Thoughts and Podcast PromotionSNOW NOTES:Pranav's LinkedIn ParamarkElena VernaStatistical significanceHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Season five kicks off with the announcement nobody asked for but everyone needed: We're Not Marketers is throwing an event, and it's nothing like the stale hotel ballroom marathons you're used to. Eric, Zach, and Gab break down why they're risking it all to create a three-day PMM experience that's equal parts tactical workshop, adventure vacation, and therapy session for product marketers who are tired of pretending B2B has to be boring. Get the juicy details on how they infiltrated Drive 2025, why they're limiting attendance to 150 people, and what happens when three solopreneurs decide confidence beats certainty. → Why three solopreneurs with zero event planning experience think they can beat PMA→ The real reason behind the fake mustaches at Drive (hint: it's not just for laughs)→ The "sitting makes you stupid" theory: Why ballroom marathons kill creativity→ How wearing a Halloween costume to a B2B event makes you more yourself, not less→ Most PMMs need a recharge and haven't had one in yearsIf you've ever wondered why PMM events feel like eating cardboard while someone reads you PowerPoint slides, this episode will either inspire you or make you think we've completely lost it.Timestamped00:00 - Season 5 Intro: Two Years of We're Not Marketers 02:15 - The Big Announcement: We're Throwing an Event 04:30 - Why PMM Events Are Broken (And Why We're Fixing Them) 08:45 - The Mustache Origin Story: From Highline to Drive 12:20 - Behind the Scenes: How We Decided to Commit to the Bit 15:20 - Analysis Paralysis vs. Bold Action: Our Decision-Making Process 18:50 - The 150-Person Formula: In-House, Fractional, and CMOs 22:15 - Why Events Should Feel Like Vacations, Not Work 26:40 - The Fractional PMM Problem: Gatekeeping in B2B Events 29:30 - What Makes a Great Event: Lessons from Highline and Drive 32:10 - The Ryan Holiday Moment That Validated Everything 35:45 - Our Event Philosophy: Shipping Over Theory 38:20 - Why We're Taking the Risk (Even If It Fails) 42:00 - What Attendees Are Asking For: Tactical, Fun, and RealSHOW NOTES:Courage Is Calling" by Ryan HolidayHighline ConferenceDrive ConferenceWe're Not Marketers Event WaitlistHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

AI-powered competitive intel is the new snake oil, and executives are buying it by the gallon. While everyone's obsessing over ChatGPT doing their research in 20 minutes, they're missing the point entirely—your buying champions don't need a 30-page report about why your competitors suck. They need ammunition to win internal battles with their CFO, their boss's boss, and six other stakeholders who couldn't care less about your feature comparison chart. Tune in for the brutal truth about why most competitive intel is just expensive garbage and what champions actually need to get deals done.What to expect while listening...Why executives trust ChatGPT more than their own product marketers (and why that's insane)The "30-page report trap" that makes buying champions want to quit dealsEric's AI horror story: When ChatGPT said their product was live before it existedGab's "structural laziness" hack that 9x'd his ad creation speedWhy competitive intel is becoming the "B2B scapegoat" for lazy thinkingThe four deadly traps killing your win rates (spoiler: volume isn't success)How "gotcha moments" backfire and destroy champion relationshipsWhy CEO handshakes don't close deals anymore (ask Dropbox about Crayon)The comparison page problem: All green checkmarks vs. all red X'sZach's client who said ChatGPT delivered more in 20 minutes than his expertiseIf you've ever wondered why your competitive intel doesn't actually win deals, or if you're tired of executives waving their ChatGPT reports around like they just discovered fire, this episode will either save your sanity or make you question everything. Either way, your champions will thank you.Timestamps02:00 The Ugly Truth About AI-Powered Competitive Intel 07:00 AI vs. Human Expertise: The Battle for Trust13:00 The Four Traps Killing Competitive Intel Programs18:00 Why "Laziness" is Ruining B2B Sales Enablement24:00 Gab's Messaging Sprint Success Story31:00 What Champions Actually Need to Win Deals36:00 The Death of CEO Handshake Deals40:00 How to Train AI Without Losing Your Mind44:00 MIT Study: ChatGPT is Eroding Critical Thinking47:00 Season Wrap-up & See You Next SeasonHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely.In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren’t traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what startup leaders really need when they ask for help. From messy handoffs to misaligned messaging, Alex explains the recurring pain points that surface in the go-to-market function and how external voices can reset the entire narrative.She also share knowledge on:The power dynamics that make consultants more effective than internal PMMsWhy hourly billing models can backfire (and what to do instead)How to spot when your org needs a third-party voice to fix GTM strategyTactics for commanding a room with CEOs (even if you're the outsider)How to avoid getting pulled into the basement making decks and one-pagersPractical advice for PMMs transitioning into consulting or freelance workIf you’ve tried to run a strategic PMM project while dodging CEO opinions and internal politics, this episode is a must-listen. Whether you're in-house and underwater or eyeing the consultant leap, Alex Virden brings receipts, real talk, and a clear lens on what modern product marketing really looks like when done right 🫡Timestamps:02:54 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:59 The Role of a Product Marketing Consultant09:23 Challenges and Insights in Product Marketing16:24 Structuring Consulting Engagements24:19 Maintaining Control in Client Meetings26:31 Meeting Disasters and Control27:20 The Importance of Structured Agendas29:06 Hypotheses and Curiosity in Product Marketing30:46 Challenges in Messaging and Stakeholder Meddling32:17 The Role of External Validation34:59 Demand Generation vs. Product Marketing38:58 The 4Ps and Modern Marketing43:49 Final Thoughts and Staying ConnectedShow Notes: Alex’s LinkedIn  Virdical WebsiteHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different.Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We’re covering:The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and CostThe danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded marketsHow convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd thinkHow category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever. 👀Timestamps:00:54 Introducing the Guest: Jon Itkin01:26 The Role of Product Marketers04:34 Macro vs. Micro Perspectives in Marketing07:16 Brand vs. Product Marketing18:32 Differentiation in Product Marketing26:15 Google's Convenience Advantage26:44 The Importance of Convenience in B2B27:15 Positioning and Buying Process28:56 Switching Campaigns and Self-Service30:28 Understanding the Four Cs32:34 Leveraging AI for Competitive Analysis41:12 Branding and Credibility45:51 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsShow Notes:Jon’s LinkedInIn the Kitchen Jon 4 C framework on MiroHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil’s unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix itThe AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn’t)“You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you doPhil’s rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analystThe PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarityThis one’s a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you’ve ever felt like the ‘silent’ in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing24:30 The Current State of AI25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E45:30 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Phil’s LinkedInHumans of Martech PodcastHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.Here's what to expect when listening...The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bossesWhy fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peersThe surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid offWhy hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house jobThe brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"Time Stamps00:00 Introduction and Host Banter01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health RisksHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030, and why LLMs will actually make SEO more valuable, not less. Ross drops some truth bombs about AI scraping the internet that might make you reconsider where you're spending your marketing budget.Why product marketing is just one layer of the "marketing onion" (and why that matters)The skills every marketer needs to develop if they want that sweet promotion (and bigger paycheck)Why your marketing strategy shouldn't mindlessly copy Canva's TikTok—even if it's working for themHow SEO experts accidentally taught ChatGPT everything it knows (and why Google still matters)The "content moat" strategy that will determine which companies dominate in 2030Why your CMO should be investing in content and SEO right now (before it's too late)How the rise of AI makes SEO MORE important, not less (despite what LinkedIn gurus say)The uncomfortable truth: if you can't sell your ideas internally, you're in the wrong jobHow to build "T-shaped" marketing skills (and why you need a capital "I" instead)If you want your content to actually drive results five years from now instead of disappearing into the digital void tomorrow, hit play. Ross reveals the distribution-first mindset that separates marketing that works from marketing that wastes.Show Notes00:41 Meet Our Guest: Ross Simmonds03:09 The Evolution of Marketing05:37 The T-Shaped Marketer10:03 Distribution First Mindset14:09 SEO and Product Marketing18:21 Investing in Content and SEO24:11 Effective Content Distribution31:18 Reflecting on Early Challenges31:58 Embracing AI for Content Distribution32:39 The Importance of Obsession and Continuous Learning34:20 Practical Steps to Stay Ahead in AI36:36 Building and Experimenting with AI Projects45:55 Sharing Ideas and Overcoming Self-Doubt49:10 The Power of Experimentation and Content Creation52:14 Final Thoughts and Future PlansHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.