We're Not Marketers

If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different.Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We’re covering:The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and CostThe danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded marketsHow convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd thinkHow category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever. 👀Timestamps:00:54 Introducing the Guest: Jon Itkin01:26 The Role of Product Marketers04:34 Macro vs. Micro Perspectives in Marketing07:16 Brand vs. Product Marketing18:32 Differentiation in Product Marketing26:15 Google's Convenience Advantage26:44 The Importance of Convenience in B2B27:15 Positioning and Buying Process28:56 Switching Campaigns and Self-Service30:28 Understanding the Four Cs32:34 Leveraging AI for Competitive Analysis41:12 Branding and Credibility45:51 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsShow Notes:Jon’s LinkedInIn the Kitchen Jon 4 C framework on MiroHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil’s unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix itThe AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn’t)“You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you doPhil’s rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analystThe PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarityThis one’s a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you’ve ever felt like the ‘silent’ in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing24:30 The Current State of AI25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E45:30 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Phil’s LinkedInHumans of Martech PodcastHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.Here's what to expect when listening...The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bossesWhy fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peersThe surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid offWhy hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house jobThe brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"Time Stamps00:00 Introduction and Host Banter01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health RisksHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030, and why LLMs will actually make SEO more valuable, not less. Ross drops some truth bombs about AI scraping the internet that might make you reconsider where you're spending your marketing budget.Why product marketing is just one layer of the "marketing onion" (and why that matters)The skills every marketer needs to develop if they want that sweet promotion (and bigger paycheck)Why your marketing strategy shouldn't mindlessly copy Canva's TikTok—even if it's working for themHow SEO experts accidentally taught ChatGPT everything it knows (and why Google still matters)The "content moat" strategy that will determine which companies dominate in 2030Why your CMO should be investing in content and SEO right now (before it's too late)How the rise of AI makes SEO MORE important, not less (despite what LinkedIn gurus say)The uncomfortable truth: if you can't sell your ideas internally, you're in the wrong jobHow to build "T-shaped" marketing skills (and why you need a capital "I" instead)If you want your content to actually drive results five years from now instead of disappearing into the digital void tomorrow, hit play. Ross reveals the distribution-first mindset that separates marketing that works from marketing that wastes.Show Notes00:41 Meet Our Guest: Ross Simmonds03:09 The Evolution of Marketing05:37 The T-Shaped Marketer10:03 Distribution First Mindset14:09 SEO and Product Marketing18:21 Investing in Content and SEO24:11 Effective Content Distribution31:18 Reflecting on Early Challenges31:58 Embracing AI for Content Distribution32:39 The Importance of Obsession and Continuous Learning34:20 Practical Steps to Stay Ahead in AI36:36 Building and Experimenting with AI Projects45:55 Sharing Ideas and Overcoming Self-Doubt49:10 The Power of Experimentation and Content Creation52:14 Final Thoughts and Future PlansHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are most B2B marketers actually doing customer research wrong? In this episode, Content Lift founder Ryan Paul Gibson reveals why "just talking to customers" isn't enough and why one-third of marketers can't even get access to customers at all. From his days timing how long people take to put cream in coffee to calling customers without permission, Ryan shares guerrilla tactics for getting real insights when your company stands in the way. Tune in for a masterclass in effective customer investigation that goes beyond the junk food advice most marketers are fed:Why most customer interviews produce useless insights that can't guide marketing decisionsThe 95-5 rule: Why 95% of your market isn't ready to buy (and why that's what marketers should focus on)How one simple purchase decision took Ryan three years to make (and why that destroys most marketing dashboards)Why B2B marketers who can't explain unit economics will always lose budget battlesThe fundamental difference between B2C and B2B that most founders don't understandHow Reddit changed B2B buying decisions forever (and why sales teams haven't caught up)If you've ever tried to make data-driven marketing decisions but got stuck with anecdotes instead of insights, this episode is your lifeline. Ryan shows you how to conduct customer research that actually informs strategy instead of just confirming what you already believe. Hit play to learn investigation techniques that will make your marketing budget work twice as hard.Timestamps:00:54 Meet Our Guest: Ryan Paul Gibson 01:50 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:49 The History and Evolution of Marketing 04:56 Ryan's Journey into B2B Marketing 10:00 Challenges in Product Marketing 14:54 The Importance of Customer Interviews 23:05 Understanding B2B Marketing Dynamics 30:24 Understanding Research Design 30:59 Challenges in Client Engagement 36:09 The Role of AI in Market Research 36:50 Qualitative Research and Thematic Analysis 38:47 Leveraging AI for Faster Insights 41:21 Contextualizing Data with AI 49:51 Effective Customer Conversations 57:02 Final Thoughts and Contact InformationShow Notes:"Crossing the Chasm" by Geoffrey Moore Ryan Paul Gibson's "DIY Customer Investigation Guide" Eisenberg 95-5 Rule Research Ryan's LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words. We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tune in for practical tips on creating content that actually converts instead of just sounding smart.What you get when you listenWhy product marketers are the "Swiss army knife" of marketing (and why that's a good thing)The surprisingly simple research hack top copywriters use to write enterprise copy that doesn't sound roboticThe hidden Reddit goldmine most marketers completely overlookHow AI can help you analyze 1,000+ customer comments in minutes (including the exact prompts to use)Why Jessica refuses to work with pre-revenue startups (and what this means for your messaging)The embarrassing LinkedIn trend that's landing marketers on the "LinkedIn Lunatic" subredditWhy "What's in it for them?" trumps creativity every single timeThe counterintuitive reason why Jessica actually prefers clients with no messaging briefThe three types of LinkedIn posts that drive real business (not just vanity metrics)Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction01:47 Jessica Malnick on Product Marketing03:36 Navigating Copywriting Challenges08:34 Human Touch in Copywriting10:08 Using Reddit for Audience Research11:27 Tools and Techniques for Copywriting18:34 LinkedIn Strategies for PMMs23:05 Final Thoughts and Resources26:16 Conclusion and Sign-OffWhy being human in your copy matters more in the age of AI than ever beforeHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.  This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken.We're covering:Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them)How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on RedditThe simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text)How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problemsThe contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate"No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguidedHow to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your networkIn this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content. She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults. Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind.Timestamps:02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should)17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think)37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net WorthShow Notes:Tas LinkedInHer B2B website and landing page resource hub Tas Website Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Lashay Lewis, a content strategy advisor with expertise in bridging product and content marketing, discusses the critical gap in bottom-of-funnel strategies. She explains how siloed teams hinder effective content creation and why product marketers are often overlooked heroes in this space. Listeners learn about the pitfalls of generic content and why it's essential for writers to understand their audience. Lashay also shares insights on transitioning to consulting and the mindset shifts that can lead to career transformation.

Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data."In this episode, we're covering:How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to payThe "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growthWhy most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphsThe Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BSWhy writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneursHow Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeopleCheck out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too! Timestamps:01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo?30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st)44:30 Closing Remarks and FarewellShow Notes:Ryan's LinkedInBlindspots on AmazonHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Tired of ineffective message testing? This discussion uncovers why many product marketers are missing the mark, with only 30% ever testing messages correctly. A/B testing is deemed a cop-out, while testing multiple variables is likened to chaos in the kitchen. Discover the crucial distinction between message testing and A/B testing, and learn how to craft a framework that gets buy-in from leadership. Plus, enjoy hilarious analogies about cooking that parallel the frustrations of marketing clarity. Get ready to refine your messaging strategy!