We're Not Marketers

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive deep into the "becoming vs. doing" philosophy, why your money-limiting beliefs might be killing your consultancy, and how to extract value from companies while they extract from you. Raw, real, and revolutionary—this episode might make you quit your job or finally charge what you're worth.More from this convo...From BBC/Wall Street Journal features to being treated like a child at work Why PMMs are architects while marketers are just painting pretty walls The day respect disappeared: "The minute my name hit their payroll" How to build your $100K consultancy while keeping your day job Why companies pay consultants 3X more for the same PMM work The "becoming vs. doing" trap that keeps PMMs broke Money limiting beliefs: Why you won't send the invoiceThe strategic visibility system that changes everything Why your framework knowledge means nothing without becoming How to extract value from companies that don't value youTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & The Cher of Product Marketing02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 The Architect vs. Interior Decorator Analogy03:00 PMMs as Foundation Builders04:00 From CEO to IC: The Respect Vanishing Act05:00 BBC, Wall Street Journal, Cambridge University Days06:00 Corporate America Reality Check07:00 Micromanagement & Workplace Bullying08:00 Childhood Trauma & Workplace Triggers09:00 The Crying on Calls Era11:00 Why PMM Respect Doesn't Exist13:00 The Consultant Premium Phenomenon15:00 Building Your Empire While Employed17:00 The Strategic Visibility System19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins21:00 Worst Career Advice23:00 Budget Allocation Debates25:00 Personal Branding Strategy27:00 AI Impact on PMM29:00 The Newsletter Game31:00 Career Milestones & Roadblocks33:00 Why Companies Pay Consultants More35:00 Extract Value While They Extract From You37:00 Building Frameworks on Company Time39:00 The April Dunford Model41:00 Roadblocks vs. Roadmaps43:00 The Becoming vs. Doing Philosophy45:00 Deep Coaching Approach47:00 Why Information Isn't Enough49:00 The Workout Analogy50:00 Money Limiting Beliefs51:00 Invoice Avoidance Psychology52:00 The Profitable PMM Challenge53:00Closing&WheretoFindHattieHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a channel problem—it's a foundational problem. We dive into the CPG vs. SaaS marketing divide, why founders don't get PMM, and the brutal truth about connecting your work to revenue. Spoiler: If you can't explain who you're selling to and why, more ads won't save you.More from this convo...Why product marketers are the "purest form of marketing" (but tech ruined it) • The CPG lesson that every SaaS company needs to learn • How AI is making "can we build it?" irrelevant • Why your messy GTM isn't a lead problem—it's a foundation problem • The Cheerios brand manager approach to product marketing • How tech companies segmented marketing into irrelevance • The brutal truth about connecting PMM work to revenue • Why early-stage companies are PMM paradise • The "small wins" strategy for proving PMM value • How to sell yourself internally (when founders don't get it) • Why more ads won't fix your broken positioningTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & First Redheaded Guest01:00 Guest Introduction: Garrett Jestice, Prelude Founder02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 "Purest Form of Marketers" But Not Today's Definition03:00 The CPG Background: Cheerios at General Mills04:00 Brand Managers as General Managers04:30 CPG vs. Tech: Where the Real Risk Lives05:00 AI Shifting Risk from Building to Selling06:00 The Minneapolis Connection07:00 Physical Products vs. Digital "Ones and Zeros"09:00 The Segmentation Problem in Tech Marketing11:00 Product Team vs. Marketing Team Divide13:00 Why Founders Don't Understand PMM15:00 The Language Barrier with Engineering Founders17:00 Building in Public & Personal Branding19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins21:00 Worst Marketing Advice Stories23:00 Budget Allocation Debates25:00 The AI Hype Cycle Discussion27:00 Personal Branding for PMMs29:00 The Newsletter Renaissance31:00 SEO in the AI Age33:00 Career Journey: CPG to SaaS35:00 Founding Prelude Agency37:00 Early-Stage Company Focus39:00 The Foundation Problem in GTM41:00 Working with Founders Who Don't Get It43:00 Getting Wins in Their Language (Revenue)45:00 Connecting PMM Work to Revenue47:00 Small Wins Strategy49:00 Messy GTM Execution Fix50:00 Channels vs. Foundations51:00 How to Sell Consulting Internally52:00 Closing & Where to Find GarrettHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Your PMM credibility is at stake, CRO demands more leads, without knowing what's winning revenue. Sounds familiar? Drew Giovannoli, founder of Buried Wins, calls it the 'sales deck monkey'. Don't get him wrong, as he believes PMMs should help sellers win yet, without clear buyer insights on what's winning, how can we, PMMs? That's why Drew bobbed and weaved his own consultancy focused on win-loss analysis. In this momma knock-you-out (respectfully) episode, we uncover why win-loss is more than 'tracking win rates and ignoring loss complaints'. If you ever had your back against revenue dashboard, you already know why full win-loss analysis drives more conversions than low-signal white paper leads. More on what we cover...• Why PMMs without win-loss analysis are just "sales deck monkeys" • The shocking truth: Your entire company is already in marketing (they just don't know it) • How a layoff and two weeks notice led to a thriving agency • Why generalized PMM consulting is dead (and what to do instead) • The brutal first 6 months: Zero clients except former bosses • Win-loss as the "canary in the coal mine" for positioning problems • Why being a founder means being a salesperson first, PMM second • The annual planning cycle hack that finally brought clients • How to replace yourself as the most expensive consultant • The "choose your hard" philosophy of PMM entrepreneurship • Why nothing matters until someone pays you (repeatedly)Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention. Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling.What to gather in this convo: • How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel) • Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges" • The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley • What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership • Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader • The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers • How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging • Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there) • The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams • What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see • The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everythingTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun"17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received26:00 Budget Allocation Debates28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise39:00Disagree and Commit PrincipleHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Marketers have become glorified executors, and, Nick Power isn't here to sugarcoat it. The lowercase LinkedIn legend– who also leads marketing at Noun Project– joins us to explain why your strategy docs are bullshit, why he'd delete his digital presence tomorrow, and how running five miles beats any marketing framework. We talk anti-billionaire content, why brevity is the ultimate flex in marketing, and how the entire tech industry turned marketing into a commodity. Warning: This episode might make you quit your job or completely rethink your career—either way, you're welcome.What we cover: • Why Nick Power thinks 90% of marketers aren't actually marketing anymore • The shocking reason a LinkedIn influencer would delete his entire digital presence • How to fit an entire strategy into ONE SENTENCE (seriously) • Why your positioning docs are expensive PDFs nobody reads • The anti-billionaire marketing philosophy that's actually about mental health • What happens when you've never worked with a product marketer (spoiler: you survive) • The grind culture lie that's killing your creativity • Why running 5 miles beats any marketing framework • How to give readers "the gift of surprise" in every post • The real reason marketing became a commodity in techTimestamps 01:00 Hot Guest Introduction & Lower Case Legend02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:22 Nick's Controversial Take: "Very Few Marketers Are Marketers"03:00 The System Problem: Executors vs. Strategists04:00 Marketing as a Commoditized Craft05:00 Nick's Background: CPG to B2B Tech06:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins: Digital Presence vs. Family07:00 The Mixed Bag of Online Attention08:30 Zoom Calls vs. Person Captivity10:00 Content Strategy: Wake Up and Write11:30 LinkedIn Trolling & Negative Engagement13:00 Quitting Social Media Discussion15:00 The State of Marketing Salaries17:30 Marketing Budget Allocation Debate19:00 Personal Branding vs. Company Branding21:00 The Death of Blogging23:00 Keyword Strategy & SEO Reality Check25:00 Marketing Advice You'd Give Your Younger Self27:00 Worst Marketing Experience Stories29:00 Firing Yourself from Marketing31:00 Career Identity Crisis Discussion33:00 Breaking Down Nick's Content Strategy35:00 The Art of Brevity: One-Sentence Philosophy36:00 Anti-Billionaire Content Explained37:00 Late-Stage Capitalism & Grind Culture Critique38:00 Coping Mechanisms: Running, Music, Kids39:00 From Surf to Run: Finding Flow State40:00 Mental Health in Marketing41:00 Closing & Noun Project ShoutoutHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing—marketing's favorite misunderstood stepchild or just expensive project management in disguise? Pranav Piyush (ex-Dropbox, ex-Bill, founder of Paramark) joins the crew to drop some inconvenient truths: most PMMs are stuck doing thankless work because nobody knows who actually runs the business. We're talking hypothesis-driven thinking, why talking to customers isn't optional, the statistical traps that make your research garbage, and why that rebrand probably won't save your pipeline. Also:The "HIPPO problem" destroying 90% of PMM effectivenessThe three data pitfalls that make your research worthless (cherry-picking is just the start)Why statistics courses should be mandatory for every marketerThe hypothesis-based approach that turns opinions into provable strategiesWhy measuring creative team productivity is a complete waste of timeThe incrementality blind spot: 99% of B2B orgs have no clue about their marketing ROIActivity metrics you should ignore vs. the engagement signals that actually matterIf you've ever felt like a glorified PowerPoint factory or wondered why your data never wins arguments, this episode will either validate your existence or make you question everything. Either way, you'll finally understand why the role exists in the first place.TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:37 Introducing the Guest: Pranav Piyush00:46 Pranav's Background and Career Highlights01:25 Personal Anecdotes and Adventures02:40 Origins of the Podcast03:37 The Role of Product Marketers07:04 Challenges in Product Marketing17:40 The Importance of Data in Marketing24:00 Understanding Positioning and Messaging24:45 Qualitative vs Quantitative Research in Messaging25:04 The Role of Customer Research30:13 Activity Metrics: What Really Matters?34:29 Creative Work and Measurement37:31 The Importance of Incrementality43:58 Rebrands: Are They Worth It?47:11 Final Thoughts and Podcast PromotionSNOW NOTES:Pranav's LinkedIn ParamarkElena VernaStatistical significanceHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Season five kicks off with the announcement nobody asked for but everyone needed: We're Not Marketers is throwing an event, and it's nothing like the stale hotel ballroom marathons you're used to. Eric, Zach, and Gab break down why they're risking it all to create a three-day PMM experience that's equal parts tactical workshop, adventure vacation, and therapy session for product marketers who are tired of pretending B2B has to be boring. Get the juicy details on how they infiltrated Drive 2025, why they're limiting attendance to 150 people, and what happens when three solopreneurs decide confidence beats certainty. → Why three solopreneurs with zero event planning experience think they can beat PMA→ The real reason behind the fake mustaches at Drive (hint: it's not just for laughs)→ The "sitting makes you stupid" theory: Why ballroom marathons kill creativity→ How wearing a Halloween costume to a B2B event makes you more yourself, not less→ Most PMMs need a recharge and haven't had one in yearsIf you've ever wondered why PMM events feel like eating cardboard while someone reads you PowerPoint slides, this episode will either inspire you or make you think we've completely lost it.Timestamped00:00 - Season 5 Intro: Two Years of We're Not Marketers 02:15 - The Big Announcement: We're Throwing an Event 04:30 - Why PMM Events Are Broken (And Why We're Fixing Them) 08:45 - The Mustache Origin Story: From Highline to Drive 12:20 - Behind the Scenes: How We Decided to Commit to the Bit 15:20 - Analysis Paralysis vs. Bold Action: Our Decision-Making Process 18:50 - The 150-Person Formula: In-House, Fractional, and CMOs 22:15 - Why Events Should Feel Like Vacations, Not Work 26:40 - The Fractional PMM Problem: Gatekeeping in B2B Events 29:30 - What Makes a Great Event: Lessons from Highline and Drive 32:10 - The Ryan Holiday Moment That Validated Everything 35:45 - Our Event Philosophy: Shipping Over Theory 38:20 - Why We're Taking the Risk (Even If It Fails) 42:00 - What Attendees Are Asking For: Tactical, Fun, and RealSHOW NOTES:Courage Is Calling" by Ryan HolidayHighline ConferenceDrive ConferenceWe're Not Marketers Event WaitlistHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

AI-powered competitive intel is the new snake oil, and executives are buying it by the gallon. While everyone's obsessing over ChatGPT doing their research in 20 minutes, they're missing the point entirely—your buying champions don't need a 30-page report about why your competitors suck. They need ammunition to win internal battles with their CFO, their boss's boss, and six other stakeholders who couldn't care less about your feature comparison chart. Tune in for the brutal truth about why most competitive intel is just expensive garbage and what champions actually need to get deals done.What to expect while listening...Why executives trust ChatGPT more than their own product marketers (and why that's insane)The "30-page report trap" that makes buying champions want to quit dealsEric's AI horror story: When ChatGPT said their product was live before it existedGab's "structural laziness" hack that 9x'd his ad creation speedWhy competitive intel is becoming the "B2B scapegoat" for lazy thinkingThe four deadly traps killing your win rates (spoiler: volume isn't success)How "gotcha moments" backfire and destroy champion relationshipsWhy CEO handshakes don't close deals anymore (ask Dropbox about Crayon)The comparison page problem: All green checkmarks vs. all red X'sZach's client who said ChatGPT delivered more in 20 minutes than his expertiseIf you've ever wondered why your competitive intel doesn't actually win deals, or if you're tired of executives waving their ChatGPT reports around like they just discovered fire, this episode will either save your sanity or make you question everything. Either way, your champions will thank you.Timestamps02:00 The Ugly Truth About AI-Powered Competitive Intel 07:00 AI vs. Human Expertise: The Battle for Trust13:00 The Four Traps Killing Competitive Intel Programs18:00 Why "Laziness" is Ruining B2B Sales Enablement24:00 Gab's Messaging Sprint Success Story31:00 What Champions Actually Need to Win Deals36:00 The Death of CEO Handshake Deals40:00 How to Train AI Without Losing Your Mind44:00 MIT Study: ChatGPT is Eroding Critical Thinking47:00 Season Wrap-up & See You Next SeasonHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely.In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren’t traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what startup leaders really need when they ask for help. From messy handoffs to misaligned messaging, Alex explains the recurring pain points that surface in the go-to-market function and how external voices can reset the entire narrative.She also share knowledge on:The power dynamics that make consultants more effective than internal PMMsWhy hourly billing models can backfire (and what to do instead)How to spot when your org needs a third-party voice to fix GTM strategyTactics for commanding a room with CEOs (even if you're the outsider)How to avoid getting pulled into the basement making decks and one-pagersPractical advice for PMMs transitioning into consulting or freelance workIf you’ve tried to run a strategic PMM project while dodging CEO opinions and internal politics, this episode is a must-listen. Whether you're in-house and underwater or eyeing the consultant leap, Alex Virden brings receipts, real talk, and a clear lens on what modern product marketing really looks like when done right 🫡Timestamps:02:54 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:59 The Role of a Product Marketing Consultant09:23 Challenges and Insights in Product Marketing16:24 Structuring Consulting Engagements24:19 Maintaining Control in Client Meetings26:31 Meeting Disasters and Control27:20 The Importance of Structured Agendas29:06 Hypotheses and Curiosity in Product Marketing30:46 Challenges in Messaging and Stakeholder Meddling32:17 The Role of External Validation34:59 Demand Generation vs. Product Marketing38:58 The 4Ps and Modern Marketing43:49 Final Thoughts and Staying ConnectedShow Notes: Alex’s LinkedIn  Virdical WebsiteHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different.Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We’re covering:The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and CostThe danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded marketsHow convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd thinkHow category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever. 👀Timestamps:00:54 Introducing the Guest: Jon Itkin01:26 The Role of Product Marketers04:34 Macro vs. Micro Perspectives in Marketing07:16 Brand vs. Product Marketing18:32 Differentiation in Product Marketing26:15 Google's Convenience Advantage26:44 The Importance of Convenience in B2B27:15 Positioning and Buying Process28:56 Switching Campaigns and Self-Service30:28 Understanding the Four Cs32:34 Leveraging AI for Competitive Analysis41:12 Branding and Credibility45:51 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsShow Notes:Jon’s LinkedInIn the Kitchen Jon 4 C framework on MiroHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.