
Those Who Serve The Lord
Those Who Serve the Lord is a podcast of Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics, dedicated to forming whole lives for God’s whole mission through God’s whole church—what we call missioholism.
Are you tired of all the division, media hype, and shallow answers? Do you long for clarity, renewal, and hope in an increasingly disorienting cultural landscape?
Are you burdened for your church, your family, or your calling, and wondering why the strategies that once brought growth and fruitfulness now seem to fall flat?
Are you yearning for fresh vision, deeper passion, and renewed purpose?
There is a way forward.
In a world fractured by half-truths and half-lived faith, Those Who Serve the Lord calls pastors, leaders, and everyday believers to embody the new humanity of the new creation—mind, heart, body, and soul—for the renewal of all things.
Get ready for theologically rich, culturally grounded conversations that are both profound and practical—never dry, never detached.
Join Travis Michael Fleming—pastor, public theologian, and cultural apologist—as he walks alongside you to help you live out your calling. Because your faith matters, your work is not in vain, and the Lord is with you every step of the way.
Latest episodes

Mar 22, 2024 • 39min
#231 | Jesus and the Powers: Understanding Our Political Witness with N.T. Wright, Pt. 1
What should our Christian political witness look like in an age of totalitarian terror and dysfunctional democracies? What is the church's role between Jesus and Caesar? What does Jesus' kingdom look like in the shadow of empire? How do we testify to the powers? How do we resist them? Today we welcome N.T. Wright to the show. Prof. Wright is currently a Research Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Early Christianity at St Mary’s College in the University of St Andrews and a Senior Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford. He has authored or co-authored over 90 books, and today he joins Apollos Watered to discuss his newest book, "Jesus and the Powers: Christian Political Witness in an Age of Totalitarian Terror and Dysfunctional Democracies."Takeaways: Tom Wright emphasizes the importance of understanding the political implications of the Gospel. The kingdom of God is not just a spiritual concept but has earthly significance. Christians are called to engage in politics wisely and biblically, not reactively. The church should reflect a diverse community that challenges societal norms of division. Dark powers influence human authority, and Christians must discern these influences in society. The church's witness is to embody love and unity, showcasing God's kingdom in action. Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Mar 20, 2024 • 57min
#230 | Politics and Christian Nationalism with Cherie Harder
What role does politics play in the mission of God? How do we navigate the political field without stepping on a cultural landmine? What should our political engagement look like? And what do we do with things like Christian nationalism? Today's guest is Cherie Harder, President of the Trinity Forum. Cherie Harder serves as President of the Trinity Forum. Before joining the Trinity Forum in 2008, Ms. Harder served in the White House as Special Assistant to the President and Director of Policy and Projects for First Lady Laura Bush.Earlier in her career she served as Policy Advisor to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, advising the Leader on domestic social issues and serving as liaison and outreach director to outside groups. From 2001 to 2005, she was Senior Counselor to the Chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH), where she helped the Chairman design and launch the We the People initiative to enhance the teaching, study, and understanding of American history. Before that, Ms. Harder was the Policy Director for Senator Sam Brownback and also served as Deputy Policy Director at Empower America.She holds an Honors B.A. (magna cum laude) in government from Harvard University and a post-graduate diploma in literature from the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, where she was a Rotary Scholar. She is also a Senior Fellow at Cardus, an Editorial Board member of Comment magazine, a past board member of Gordon College and the C.S. Lewis Institute, a current board member of the Convergence Center for Policy Resolution and Faith and Law, and an advisory board member of the National Museum of American Religion.Check out The Trinity Forum Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Mar 8, 2024 • 40min
#229 | Futureproof Your Church with Stephen McAlpine
There are so many things that are happening in our world today and churches are trying to figure out what to do next. What do we do next? How can we be faithful and fruitful in this moment? How do we do community in this world when people are already so busy? Pastor and author Stephen McAlpine shows us that the answers aren't that complex. We can future-proof our churches. Listen in as Travis and Stephen discuss Stephen's new book, Futureproof: How to Live for Jesus in a Culture That Keeps on Changing (Discipleship resource: a Christian response to cultural change and the future of the church)Check out Stephen's website.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered! #futureproof #stephenmcalpine #Christianity #church #churchinnorthamerica #reformation #rechurching #Jesus #Christ #brideofchrist #hope #christisking #apolloswatered #wateringfaith #travismichaelfleming #evangelicalism #Christian #goodnews #churchattendance #americanevangelicalism #committed Takeaways: The contemporary church must refocus its hope on the age to come, as emphasized in the Bible, to navigate the present cultural challenges. It is imperative for church leaders to articulate the return of Jesus as the cataclysmic event that will usher in our ultimate hope. To effectively future-proof the church, individuals must resist the temptation to seek fulfillment solely in present circumstances and instead look towards God's eternal promises. The cultural discombobulation experienced today requires church leaders to provide a clear and compelling vision that transcends mere moral guidance or therapeutic messages. As society becomes increasingly secular, churches must foster deeper communal connections among believers to counter the isolating effects of modern life. The church's mission in a hostile culture is to showcase beauty, justice, and mercy, reflecting God's character in a world that often overlooks these values.

Mar 4, 2024 • 1h 3min
#228 | The Great Dechurching: Understanding the 40 Million Who Left the Church with Michael Graham
The stats reveal trouble in evangelicalism, Bible reading is down, church attendance is down, and the none's are rising. What's going on? In The Great Dechurching, authors Michael Graham, Jim Davis, and Ryan P. Burge have done the work and come back with the stats. It's both better and worse than we could imagine. 40 million people have stopped going to church in the last 25 years and that's just the tip of the iceberg. However, amid such depressing news, there is hope. Because many of them are willing and ready to come back! Listen as Travis and Michael Graham discuss the book, the stats, and what we can do to help connect people to Jesus and His church. Referenced in this episode is Dechurching.com, The Keller Center.Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered! #thegreatdechurching #Christianity #church #churchinnorthamerica #reformation #rechurching #Jesus #Christ #brideofchrist #hope #christisking #MichaelGraham #theKellerCenter #apolloswatered #wateringfaith #travismichaelfleming #evangelicalism #Christian #goodnews #churchattendance #americanevangelicalismTakeaways: The term 'dechurching' describes individuals who attended church regularly but now do so less than once a year. Michael Graham's research reveals a staggering 40 million people have left church over the past 25 years. Many who left did so for pragmatic reasons, not due to theological disagreements or scandals. Over half of those who left evangelical churches are open to returning if invited. The study identifies distinct profiles of de churched individuals, each with unique reasons and circumstances. There is hope as many de churched individuals still maintain a positive view of evangelicalism.

Feb 26, 2024 • 51min
#227 | A God-Centered Life In A Self-Centered World with George Marsden
Everywhere we look its about us. How "we" want things, "our" true self, "our" vision of the world, what "we" want, etc. Even algorithms cater to us, giving us more and more of what we want, but is that the secret to happiness? Getting more of what "we" want? There is a better way. By taking the focus off of ourselves and getting our focus back on God, that's not easy. We need some help. Who could help us refocus? How about from "those who are dead and yet still speak"? We need to go back and listen to those voices with God-centered lives: Jonathan Edwards, C.S. Lewis, and Augustine. Today, we welcome one of the greatest living historians of American history, George Marsden, who can help us do just that. Dr. Marsden brings Edwards into the twenty-first century, along with Augustine and C.S. Lewis, he helps us to see how we can reorient our lives in our modern times to be more God-centered and ordered by our loves rather than the algorithms of our modern world. Dr. Marsden is Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Notre Dame, is an influential historian who has written extensively on the interaction between Christianity and American culture, particularly on Christianity in American higher education and on American evangelicalism. He is well known for his biography Jonathan Edwards: A Life. He has authored other books including The Soul of the American University, Religion and American Culture, Fundamentalism and American Culture, and C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity”: A Biography. Marsden studied at Haverford College, Westminster Theological Seminary, and Yale University; he has taught at Calvin University, Duke University, and the University of Notre Dame. Today, we discuss his newest book on Edwards, "An Infinite Fountain of Light: Jonathan Edwards for the Twenty-First Century."Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered! Takeaways: The exploration of Jonathan Edwards' theological insights offers a profound understanding of authentic Christianity amid contemporary ideological distractions. Dr. George Marsden emphasizes the importance of historical context when interpreting the works of Jonathan Edwards and their relevance today. Edwards' notion of rightly ordered loves serves as a guiding principle for Christians to assess their faith and its impact on their community. Understanding the intersection of Christianity and culture is essential to grasp how faith evolves and influences societal norms over time. The revivalist spirit of the 18th century, exemplified by Edwards, invites a reconsideration of modern evangelical practices and their theological foundations. Marsden articulates the necessity of humility and charity as core virtues within the Christian community, reflecting the true essence of Christ-like love.

Feb 16, 2024 • 55min
#226 | The Church Between Temple & Mosque | Dan Strange
Where does Christianity stand between Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and the like? How do we build a relationship with those of other religions without losing ourselves in the process? What are the bridges that need to be crossed to lead them to Jesus? What is the mission of the church today? What role does the cultural mandate play? And how can the 20th-century Dutch missiologist, J.H. Bavinck help us understand the mission today so that we can do it both faithfully and fruitfully? What role does contextualization play in communicating that mission? That's what we discussed on today's show!Daniel Strange is the director of Crosslands Forum and the vice president of The Southgate Fellowship. He is one of the inaugural fellows of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics and is the author of Their Rock Is Not Like Our Rock: A Theology of Religions (Zondervan, 2015), Plugged In (The Good Book Company, 2019), and Making Faith Magnetic (The Good Book Company, 2021) (the book we are talking about today!) He is a contributing editor for Themelios and an elder of Hope Community Church, Gateshead, U.K., which is part of the Fellowship of Evangelical Churches (FIEC).It's a fantastic, fun, and faith-filled conversation that can help you build a bridge with unbelievers so that they too can know Jesus. This is a must-listen!Check out #177 Daniel Strange, Pt. 1 and #178 Daniel Strange, Pt. 2Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Feb 9, 2024 • 48min
#225 | 8 Habits for Reimagining Productivity, Resisting Hurry, and Practicing Peace with Jen Pollock Michel, Pt. 2
Part 2 of our conversation with Jen Pollock Michel as we continue to discuss her book, In Good Time. We are all busy, and have a hard time cultivating the habits that enable both being and doing. If we can't cultivate good habits, we have a harder time fulfilling God's mission. In this episode, Travis and Jenn discuss some of the seven deadly sins, and how our contemporary online lives are often guilty of the sin of vainglory, and our constant scrolling is a form of the ancient sin of acedia. We need to address these sins and cultivate habits that enable godliness. Jen is a writer, speaker, coach, and podcast host. She is the author of five books: A Habit Called Faith, Surprised by Paradox (winner of Christianity Today’s 2020 Award of Merit for Beautiful Orthodoxy), Keeping Place, and Teach Us to Want (winner of Christianity Today’s 2015 Book of the Year). She holds a B.A. in French from Wheaton College, an M.A. in Literature from Northwestern University, and is working to complete an M.F.A from Seattle Pacific University. After eleven years of living in Toronto, Jen now lives in Cincinnati with her husband and two youngest children. You can follow Jen on Twitter and Instagram @jenpmichel, subscribe to her Monday letters at www.jenpollockmichel.com, and listen to episodes of the Englewood Review of Books podcast.Learn more about JenListen to Part 1Sign up for the Apollos Watered email.Help revitalize the church in this moment! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Feb 2, 2024 • 51min
#224 | 8 Habits for Reimagining Productivity, Resisting Hurry, and Practicing Peace with Jen Pollock Michel, Pt. 1
Are you tired of being tired? Tired of being stressed out? Tired of not getting stuff done? How are those New Year's resolutions coming along? We all can get frustrated and overwhelmed with all the things that need to be done. Every year there is a new guru who pops up to help us do more, but what about "be" more? How can we get done what we need to get done, but resist hurry and practice peace at the same time? Today, we welcome Jen Pollock Michel onto the show to discuss her book, In Good Time. Jen is a writer, speaker, coach, and podcast host. She is the author of five books: A Habit Called Faith, Surprised by Paradox (winner of Christianity Today’s 2020 Award of Merit for Beautiful Orthodoxy), Keeping Place, and Teach Us to Want (winner of Christianity Today’s 2015 Book of the Year). She holds a B.A. in French from Wheaton College, an M.A. in Literature from Northwestern University, and is working to complete an M.F.A from Seattle Pacific University. After eleven years of living in Toronto, Jen now lives in Cincinnati with her husband and her two youngest children. You can follow Jen on Twitter and Instagram @jenpmichel, subscribe to her Monday letters at www.jenpollockmichel.com, and listen to episodes of the Englewood Review of Books podcast.Learn more about JenSign up for the Apollos Watered email.Help revitalize the church in this moment! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!Takeaways: The conversation emphasizes the importance of reexamining our relationship with time in order to avoid the pitfalls of modern productivity culture, which often views individuals as mere machines. Jen Pollock Michel's book, 'In Good Time', introduces eight habits designed to help individuals resist the impulse to hurry and embrace a more peaceful approach to productivity. The podcast discusses the notion that time management, as understood today, has been co-opted by modern assumptions, detracting from its original biblical intent of redeeming time. The hosts reflect on the societal pressures that lead individuals to feel excessively busy, often at the expense of meaningful relationships and spiritual growth. A significant theme of the episode is the concept of belonging and how our relationships with others are fundamental to living out our faith amidst the chaos of contemporary life. The discussion also touches on the alarming conditions faced by workers in modern corporations like Amazon, which serve as a metaphor for broader societal issues concerning human dignity and productivity.

Jan 26, 2024 • 1h
Navigating the Chaos: Dr. Albert Mohler on the Future of Faith and Culture
Travis Michael Fleming engages in a thought-provoking dialogue with Dr. Albert Mohler, a prominent figure in evangelical thought and the current president of Southern Seminary. The conversation traverses a wide array of topics, primarily focusing on the evolving landscape of Christianity and the challenges faced by the church today. Mohler reflects on the significant cultural shifts impacting the church, particularly the recent phenomenon termed the 'great dechurching,' where millions are leaving traditional church settings. He provides a nuanced perspective, arguing that this trend is not entirely surprising, given the historical trajectory of secularization in society. Both Fleming and Mohler explore the implications of these changes, emphasizing the need for a robust Christian cultural identity that stands in contrast to the prevailing secular norms, advocating for a gospel that is not only preached but lived fully in every aspect of life. They also tackle the topic of political engagement for Christians, especially during an election cycle characterized by division and moral complexity. Mohler asserts that while Christians must take a stand on social issues such as abortion and marriage, they should do so with a spirit of humility and a clear understanding of the gospel's transformative power. The discussion is rich with historical context, drawing on past theological insights to inform current practices, and highlights the importance of establishing vibrant, convictional communities that reflect the teachings of Christ. Mohler's insights serve as both a warning and a call to action for believers navigating the tumultuous waters of modernity, urging them to embrace their faith with courage and conviction while engaging meaningfully with a world that is increasingly hostile to traditional values.Takeaways: Dr. Albert Mohler emphasizes the importance of a thick Christian culture that transcends contemporary cultural norms. The decline of church attendance reflects a loss of cultural convenience rather than conviction. Engaging in the political arena is necessary for Christians, but we must maintain integrity. The church must focus on translating the gospel into every culture while retaining its essence. Mohler argues for the necessity of Christianity in supporting liberal democracy and human dignity. Christians should not fear societal decline but rather engage with renewed commitment to faith. Learn more about Dr. Mohler, his program The Briefing, and The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.Sign up for the Apollos Watered email.Help revitalize the church in this moment! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!

Jan 19, 2024 • 53min
#222 | Is Politics Killing Evangelicalism? Pt. 2 with Pete Wehner
Can our Lord be seen by our politics? What do our politics say about us? Is the message of Jesus communicated in it? What about the way of Jesus? How is our Christian witness being affected by our politics? Do the means we employ reveal the message we believe? What happens if we focus on the message but miss the means? Listen in as Travis and Pete continue their conversation on politics in evangelicalism. Travis welcomes special guest Pete Wehner to the show today. Pete is a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, a writer and thinker who served in the Reagan administration and both Bush presidencies including as head of the office for strategic initiatives. He has written three books and has written for many publications, recently for The Atlantic and the NY Times. I met Pete at a symposium and found him to be a thoughtful and insightful voice in evangelicalism and into evangelicals' political involvement. He is a committed Christian, a political insider, and a voice needed for this moment. Sign up for the Apollos Watered email.Help revitalize the church in this moment! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!Takeaways: The healing of a country fundamentally relies on the healing of individual lives, emphasizing personal relationships. As Christians, it is imperative to engage with those who differ in opinion, fostering understanding and compassion rather than viewing them as mere political adversaries. Political engagement should reflect our identity as Christians, prioritizing our faith over partisanship and political gain. The Christian witness is severely compromised when political actions contradict the core tenets of love and unity emphasized by Jesus. Building genuine relationships and understanding others' stories is essential for reducing divisions within the church and society at large. In politically charged climates, Christians are called to embody the values of patience and compassion, reflecting Christ's teachings in all interactions.