There’s never been more ways for artists to tap directly into their fan bases than present day. However, actually understanding those same audiences hasn’t scaled at the same rate with the times. My guest on Trapital this week, Denisha Kuhlor, is out to solve that pain point with her new music tech startup, Stan.Denisha’s company wants to take a more scientific approach to understanding and growing an artist's fanbase — from the casuals to the “stans.” Strengthening the artist-fan relationship will create better fan experiences, or as Denisha calls them, “moments of magic.” One way to create that magic is through live performance, but not necessarily at music festivals, argues Denisha. She thinks artists are mistakenly prioritizing quantitative metrics (attendance and performance-fee sizes) rather than the qualitative. While this might provide a short-term boost, it hurts in the long term since artists aren’t connecting with the “stans” that are paying to see them and them only.   Denisha has observed this effect among Africa-based artists. The continent has produced a number of new stars, who generally “cut their teeth” performing at smaller, but more intimate venues like a club or even a wedding. Denisha has more insights into the rise of Africa’s music scene, the state of touring, and more. Here’s all our talking points in this episode:[2:44] The Downside Of Performing At Music Festivals[8:52] Followers Aren’t Your Fans[12:51] African Artists Model The Way For Growing A Fanbase[14:11] Benefits Of Instant Feedback Loops When Performing[16:47] Cardi B’s Unique Approach To Touring[21:28] Deeper Message In Kendrick Lamar’s Partnership With Cash App [26:52] What’s The Future Of African Music?[28:07] TikTok’s Influence In Africa’s Music Scene[31:42] Differences Between Performing In US Vs. Africa [33:55] 'Elasticity” Of An Artist Like Future[38:41] Denisha’s Start-Up Stan Is Reimagining Fan-Artist Relationship[40:19] How An Artist Can Leverage StanListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Transcription[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways, it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like, I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. [00:00:31] Dan Runcie:  Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about fans, specifically as it relates to music festivals because the people that see you perform at music festivals are not necessarily the same people that see you perform when you're on a tour. And on this episode, I was joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan, a company that focuses specifically on helping artists make better decisions based on their fan engagement.[00:01:24] Dan Runcie: And we talked all about what it's like for artists that focus on music festivals and while music festivals can be a great way to reach new people and a great way to get a good check, especially if you're a headliner performing at one of the big ones, it doesn't replace the things that don't scale and doing the hard work of building a fan base, and going out there, and meeting the people that actually want to see your music and see you in person.[00:01:50] Dan Runcie: So we talk about that. We talk about some of the current trends in the trade-offs and what Denisha is currently seeing, specifically in Africa with artists like Burna Boy, and Wizkid, and Davido and others that have really made the most of the constraints that they've had, but how it actually helped improve their careers as well.[00:02:08] Dan Runcie: We also talked about the music investment landscape, specifically in Africa, some of the opportunities there, some of the differences as it relates to music streaming. And then we chat a little bit more about Stan and what Denisha is building towards. This is a really fun combo. I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Denisha.[00:02:26] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And Denisha, you recently wrote an awesome guest piece in Trapital about the downside of music festivals. So why did you write this piece? Let's talk about it. [00:02:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So it's been something that's been in my mind for a long time. I think even on the consumer side, I've changed, I guess, how I patronize music and seeing artists and really just wanted to talk about like, how that impacts my relationship with the artists. I think we've been really conditioned and excited as consumers to attend festivals that optimize for seeing as many artists as possible.[00:03:09] Denisha Kuhlor: But what I think about some of my favorite music moments, frankly, they weren't at a festival, always a show that the artists headlined themselves. And so when I think about the impact and the touring coming, kind of coming back, you know, since restrictions, because of COVID, I think it was really important to explore from both an artist and somewhat a fan perspective.[00:03:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things, I think, you highlight as well, especially on the artist's perspective too, we could easily get caught up in the allure of festivals. People always want to see who's headlining Coachella and what does it mean. And there's not going to be as much of a headlining or newsworthy thing if you're doing your own festival, but in a lot of ways, that's where you really meet your fans everywhere. And in a lot of ways, that makes much more of a difference in the long term even if the initial check size isn't as big, which you called out. [00:04:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And in a weird way, festivals have almost become like very industry, I guess, and everything leading up to the festival, right? The politics behind being picked, where your name is on the flyer and, and what that represents. And while they're all great, I guess, points that can help an artist in the right direction, I think there's other ways to do it that maybe don't initially come with some of that fanfare. I totally agree. [00:04:25] Dan Runcie: So what are some of those ways? [00:04:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So I really, to, I guess, put a tech or venture lens on it, but the great essay of like, doing things that don't scale, right? Like, I think so often as an artist or as an aspiring artist, it's really easy to look up to the really big things. Like you said, those are the things that are newsworthy, those are the things that are covered, and that people like see as amazing. But I, I think that artists right now have like a really unique ability to just play around, right, and play around with what that means. So I think a lot about Burna Boy's interview in Billboard recently. And even though he just like headline MSG, is the first Nigerian act to do that, and has been breaking a ton of records. Like, he just kind of was like, the next big thing for me is touring in like, avant-garde venues or venues that you typically wouldn't.[00:05:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And while he's a big star, that's something that's really feasible for small artists as well, right? You know, venues, venues and tradition. And that's why I love what, like Sofar Sounds are, is doing or other platforms. But I think so often it's easy to have like a uniform idea of what a tour looks like, or even what connecting with your fans looks like.[00:05:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think sometimes just bringing together, like, even 20 or 25 people that want to see you, that are willing to take their time. And like this world of an attention deficit, like someone giving an hour or two hours of your time just to appreciate your art is really amazing. And I think that artists are so used, like, just sold out a thousand, a thousand seats or 2000 or 3000. The quantitative numbers kind of don't allow them to connect on a qualitative level. [00:05:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And everyone has to start somewhere. But I feel like in this era where there's so much instant gratification, people don't always want to go through the steps of shooting in the gym or any of that to get to that point.[00:06:09] Dan Runcie: And I think part of what makes it tough, even if they're willing to do it, sometimes the optics can be a bit scary just because of how things are set up. I think one of the things that you mentioned in the piece and we were talking about afterward is just how, if an artist gets booked on a festival, everyone may not necessarily be there to see them, even the people that are standing there, but there's this optic of look at me, performing in front of these 8,000 people that are immediately in front of me, right? But if they go and do their own show and they can't sell a thousand tickets, or if they have one of those things where they're performing and you could see so much space in between the people that are standing in the audience, then there's a bit of a vanity piece where it's like, are you comfortable with that even though, you know, that that's how you build a fan base. [00:06:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So true. You know, as we were talking about that point, I thought a lot deeper about it, and a dynamic, I think, that's also really important is almost like how social media accessibility also plays from a peer perspective.[00:07:12] Denisha Kuhlor: And so these artists, while you can be a smaller, newer, upcoming artist, you can, I guess, be or feel like your peers with artists that are way larger than you just for proximity to that artist. And as a result, you almost kind of feel, like, embarrassed, if you will. It's like a freshman hanging out with a senior, right?[00:07:31] Denisha Kuhlor: They're going to do senior things, whether it's going to prom or what, like whatever, but there's, like, really levels and social media. And I guess just other mediums have kind of taken away some of those levels. And as a result, like Issa Rae's quote, people are so busy, like, networking that they're not networking across. And as a result who or what they compare themselves to creates a false sense of reality when it comes time for their own careers. [00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that if you're on that stage, you think, okay. Yeah, I'm here, but you're really not. There's a huge difference. And as we both know, festivals get sold by the headliners, and yeah, the further, the smaller your font size is, for better or worse, the more interchangeable you actually are. And I think an instance of this, I know I've written about this recently, was looking at Coi Leray. And a lot of people had made a bit of noise about where things looked like from her perspective and her numbers because she had so many things that were coincides in her favor, in terms of being signed a Republic, she had songs with Nicki and Lil Durk. She performed on Fallon, BET awards. Benzino's daughter, over 6 million Instagram followers, but when it came time to sell her album, we're talking 11,500 units, which is around, I mean, less than 20 million streams in a week, which isn't that much.[00:08:52] Dan Runcie: There's plenty of other legacy albums that get more than that. And then they recently announced her tour and she's doing a mix of festivals and tour stops, but her tour stops, they're cities with less than 500 capacity venues. And I don't think it's just her necessarily. I think this applies to a lot of people, but it's just such a big difference where, okay, your followers are not necessarily your fans. And I think the distinction between touring and doing, you know, festivals highlights that more than anything. [00:09:24] Denisha Kuhlor: I think she's been a really interesting one to watch if only for all the things you mentioned. She's a great example of kind of a new artist these days and it begs the question, like, if attention at all, even really equals any type of conversion to, like, true patronage. And something I find is that like in a digitally native generation, they don't view attention, or maybe even we, like, we don't necessarily view attention in a positive or negative sentiment. Just because in a way you're willing to give your attention to something doesn't mean in any way it's potentially in your favor when the time comes that that attention will convert to something really tangible.[00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: But I also in, you know, in her case being signed, you know, being signed to Republic, I think it continues to, like, push that conversation of what A&R should look like now. You know, reading a lot about how A&R has evolved and having conversations with people in the industry. I think before or, or now it's evolved, right, to, like, leveraging data, right? And so many people talk about data. You can, of course, leverage data to find these up-and-coming artists, but then once you do or decide that you want to invest in this artist and work with this artist, what do those conversations kind of look like early to promote that strategy and kind of sometimes force the artists to, to go slow before they can go fast.[00:10:41] Denisha Kuhlor: I mean, we've all seen documentaries of artists from decades ago and kind of all the pre-work they did before even being pushed to being allowed to release a single or being allowed to perform a song. And that looks very different now. It almost seems like things are backwards, but not in a reverse engineer backwards. It's more just like, this happened and so now let's capitalize on that. And I think that we're kind of seeing some of the negative effects of premature success if you will. [00:11:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think that, on a more recent level, I think about Olivia Rodrigo here in the US, everyone saw how big Sour was and they were like, oh, well, you could go tour arenas now.[00:11:20] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like her and her team talked about it. They're like, no, we're going to stick to the halls that we have. And it looks like she's performing in venues that have, you know, roughly several thousand, you know, capacity. At least that's what I saw here when she came through in San Francisco. And I think she may have done like Radio City or some of the others I would have to check, but I feel like that makes sense. You know, just given that, but I think this dynamic is even more pronounced in Africa, which a lot of the artists, which have recently become superstars there as well. And you talked a lot about that in the piece and Burna Boy, who I think is a great case study on this. [00:11:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, one, just loved the music coming out of the continent. And two, I think it's really fascinating in the way artists have to position their careers to really succeed both in the continent and on a global scale. You know, part of it in a way probably comes from socioeconomic factors and then as well as just having like really migrant diasporas.[00:12:16] Denisha Kuhlor: But because of that, artists are like really, I think, forced to prioritize performing in the beginning. And when you look at the audience, right, it is kind of those things that don't scale. It's the weddings, it's the really small club performances, it's the open mics, like things that used to be very common for artists everywhere.[00:12:37] Denisha Kuhlor: But seems like, has kind of, kind of slowed down. And so as a result, I think, without having an A&R, they kind of do their own a A&R, right? You've heard stories of artists who would come to a country once and like nobody came to see them. And then three years later, the show was sold out.[00:12:51] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, artists are not only able to refine their performances. They get quick feedback loops and they do it in a way that I think is authentic to them and their sound. And it forces them to win people over, right? If you're performing at a wedding, the percentage of people that might like you could be high, could be low. But ultimately you want to walk away with more fans, right? These people are giving you an opportunity to convert them or at least to try. Whereas now I think, unfortunately, a little bit of entitlement that comes with some artists, right? Even from being upset when the audience doesn't react a certain way, and that's just like a humility that I think African artists have, have embraced.[00:13:28] Denisha Kuhlor: In terms of converting, converting the fan or the listener. And I think you see that even more when the artist really begins to take a global approach. Everybody from, you know, Davido shutting out the power of, the power of New York, or why music from the continent has been able to get so big as of recently.[00:13:46] Denisha Kuhlor: And so I think that African artists are a great example in terms of looking to, to kind of do that slow climb, and that slow work to be able to get to the point where they can sell out arenas today. [00:13:57] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like the constraints that the industry has forced them to do the things that don't scale and because they exactly did that, that's how they're in the position they are today. And that's why Burna Boy's selling out Madison Square Garden, right? [00:14:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. And it's a safe space, if you will, to get feedback. I think, you know, so often as an artist, you're of course refining who you are in creative direction and all of that, but there's just some things that come from experience with being a performer and constantly just having those feedback loops to, to iterate on what songs work, what transitions work. When you see a Beyoncé at Coachella, that's years and decades of being able to study crowd reaction of how certain things flow, what works, what doesn't work to put on a show like that.[00:14:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the feedback loops piece is key too, 'cause obviously that's going to be harder to get from a festival because you don't even know if half these people are just, you know, burning time until the headliner comes, but you can actually see what the folks you're trying to reach resonate with. And this is something that I always thought about.[00:14:59] Dan Runcie: Tyler Perry, of course, this isn't music, but with his place, he would always talk about this, how he would switch things up. He's going on this large tour across different parts of the country. He's going to use certain jokes or use certain lines that are going to work in the South, that aren't going to work in the Northeast and aren't going to work on the West Coast, and things like that.[00:15:18] Dan Runcie: And anyone that is performing that actually sees how the people that they are reaching, interact with the stuff while they're doing it. It almost always leads to a better product so that when they are doing the movies or when they are doing the mass thing, they can hit the ground running. [00:15:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's really true. And you know, as you're talking, it makes me think about like, maybe there's even a certain archetype of artists and like, one that doesn't, like, heavily involve performance. Like, I think a lot about comedians and what the, what a comedian looks like now. You have your Instagram comedians or, you know, TikTok comedy is as it's referred to, but not many of them are thinking about going on tour doing standup. And so maybe in some ways, even all-encompassing performer is different now. [00:16:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. I do think that for the people that are doing things live, it is easier to see it. I think that honestly, for people that write or podcast, it could be tougher because you, any type of feedback, there has to be at least some level of intent to let me reply to this email or let me follow up. I do think it's relatively easier for someone that has a newsletter to be able to do it relative to someone that's just writing standalone on a website. But I do think that when podcasters have live events and that is attracting people to a certain area, like, that's how they're able to get around this. But everyone, I think most creators, the more IRL things you have, whatever it is that you create, you're going to get more value out of that. [00:16:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I totally agree with you there. [00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the person that I think actually kind of challenges this with some nuance perspective is Cardi B, especially at the highest level, just considering that we're now, it's been four years since Invasion of Privacy.[00:17:00] Dan Runcie: I think it's been five years since Bodak Yellow came out, which is wild to say, but I think there's a few things. One she's yet to do a true formal tour. And she's been the first to say that with, Hey, I'm getting seven-figure guarantees to go do stuff over in Europe. And sometimes I even get those checks here in the US to perform in headline festivals.[00:17:21] Dan Runcie: Why would I go through all of the things that are involved with touring? And to be fair, there are some challenges that many artists have with touring, whether it's okay, making sure that the lighting and everything is set up right. And the production looks great on that first event that you have, because if that doesn't hit right, then that's going to impact the sales for everything else.[00:17:40] Dan Runcie: So even though we know that, yeah, that's part of doing things that don't scale. You have to do it. Some artists are fearful of that. And I think sometimes she may, you know, or at least she's alluded to her avoiding that, or even just the cost. Like, she even talked to herself about how the first time she did Coachella, it cost her more money than she actually got from the events of doing it just because of how much she spent on those things.[00:18:01] Dan Runcie: And, you know, she, at least, of her perspective sounds like she wants to be able to build up leverage likely in order to command a, you know, 40, 50 plus city arena tour that would likely match up with her star power. And I feel like that's part of the thing because I remember there was this debate going on, where people were wondering, okay, you know, if she does, like, what she would do.[00:18:26] Dan Runcie: And of course you'd all the Nicki Minaj haters were being like, oh, well she's not doing a tour 'cause she can't sell out a tour. And it's like, okay, I don't think it's that, you know, egregious. You all can, the barbs can relax a bit. But I do think that, you know, part of what I think makes it kind of tough, especially from a, a social following perspective, which I know is something that we've talked about before is that with certain artists, the reason that people follow you, you mentioned this earlier, isn't always because they're, like, vibing with your music.[00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, Cardi B puts out a lot of, you know, beauty shots to show off her fashion to show off her glamor, and some people may like that stuff and they may have not even listened to WAP or any of the, you know, bigger hits she has so how do you quantify that? So I'm very interested to see, one, what this next album looks like and what her next live performance strategy looks like.[00:19:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, if, if I was like thinking about what would be interesting for Cardi B, I think ultimately it'd be kind of a hybrid experience, right? Like I think you nailed it on the head in the sense that Cardi is a lifestyle, a lifestyle brand that has many different pillars that stand for many different things.[00:19:36] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really resonate with her, but for all types of things. And so, you know, you see more artists creating their own festivals and I don't know if there's a potential to, like, pilot what that, like, hybrid concept could look like maybe in the Bronx or somewhere unique to her.[00:19:50] Denisha Kuhlor: But I think that ultimately it will need to encompass everything that she represents. And so while the music will, of course, be one of those pillars, I feel like it could be, or would be so much, so much more. And given that she has so many brand deals and endorsements with companies that really appreciate her for the lifestyle brand that she is, I think it could be really, really unique.[00:20:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Even a partner with a festival promoter, you know, Rolling Loud is working with Chris Brown and Lil Baby as they go on tour. Like, even to, to have that partnership in a way that's really authentic and unique to her, I think is going to be fascinating. I feel like she's the artist that can kind of push the envelope in terms of experiencing her or artist in a way that we haven't necessarily thought of. You know, so often I think about, I think about like the rise or, of nightclubs and like branded parties. And right now you kind of see like two things, right? There's like really popular nightclubs that will just exist by virtue of like being a marquee name, whether that's the LIV and LIV on Sunday, but then you also have parties, right? And the parties exist without the, the venues. What I constantly think about is, like, everyday people is the party. It's not about where everyday people is or more, or more so where they're going. And so I think that's like a similar thing, that Cardi brings and the ability that she's so much of the brand, that it's more so about what she wants to do and where she'll bring people to that medium versus following the traditional way things have been done before. [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the branded piece, it, especially being able to have some type of partner with the concert or with the tour more broadly, would be big because I'm thinking about some of the recent ones we've seen. And even some of these are just slight nuances, like Kendrick Lamar partnering with Cash App for his Big Steppers tour.[00:21:28] Dan Runcie: He has coming up. I saw The Weeknd has one of these crypto companies. I think it's Binance. Yeah, Binance is doing his tour and he's doing like a big stadium tour for this run that he has coming up. And I think that just opens it up to be like, yeah, you could have many other folks. It doesn't always necessarily have to be, you know, Visa credit card holders to get the pre-check or whatever it is to get the early thing. You know, you can actually have, you know, other partners that are aligned with many of the brands and partnerships that Cardi has already had relationships with. [00:22:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And I really thought, you know, the Kendrick and Cash App partnership was fascinating to me because of, I feel like, the message it sent, right? Like, to me, it almost said like, let's make this tour accessible to all our fans versus the barrier to entry, you know, while it's nice to have an Amex Platinum, not everyone does so like versus the barrier to entry. And I think that's another really important thing with touring, right?[00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Like controlling the barriers to entry in which your fans get to see you. And so, you know, it just really symbolized to me that, like, in a way, Kendrick, like, wants his biggest fans there and he's going to remove the barriers to entry to do so. So that was a, I really enjoyed seeing that partnership.[00:22:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point because I think one of the challenges that we've seen over the years with live shows and live entertainment pricing for events is artists that are trying to price things in a way to give fans a fair chance. But also understanding that the reseller market is going to, you know, take it up to a crazy amount and then you have artists buying back and then trying to sell it themselves as resellers. And I know it could just get so messy when you see that. But I think it's clearly done because they want to be able to make sure that the actual fans can do it. But yeah, if you're just giving it to like Amex Platinum and Black Card holders, then it isn't going to work Like, we've all seen the dynamics of how Cash App grew. Cash App grew because of hip-hop fans 'cause of hip-hop influencers pushing this, and then that's how they're able to grow in the South and grow in places that Venmo didn't grow. So have it all lined up if you're trying to reach those people.[00:23:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. You know, in, in the years to come and especially with the rise of tech and really probably as a result of rising customer acquisition costs on Facebook ads and other platforms. Partnering with tech companies is going to be a great source, a great source of revenue.[00:23:52] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think just authentic partnership for artists. And ultimately it'll come down to their methodology behind choosing the right partners and what it says about how they value or how they desire to connect with their audiences. So I'm excited to see more, more partnerships, especially, I guess not just in the FinTech space, but consumer technology space overall. And I think we can tell, you know, even just as regular fans, whether it's authentic or not. Cash App made so much sense, everybody was like, of course. And I think the best part about it was people were like, oh, I have an account. Like, I've already done X thing. And so this just naturally fits in with my lifestyle. [00:24:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I, I think we'll see more of it. I hope we continue to, I know a lot of these companies have been US-based, but I'm really excited to see what's going to be coming from Africa specifically because there's so much music activity.[00:24:43] Dan Runcie: We already talked about the artists coming through and how the artists themselves in many ways will have better chops just because of the constraints that you know, are there that currently existed that we talked about earlier. What are you seeing in the space? What excites you?[00:24:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I've been really excited about everything coming out of the continent, both from a music standpoint and venture standpoint.[00:25:04] Denisha Kuhlor: It's interesting because for a long time telcos have been heavily involved in underwriting artists, artists careers, right? So a lot of performances and even festivals are heavily sponsored by telcos on the continent. And so they've always had a role and I think kind of understood the value in investing in partnering with, with artists early. I think what's evolving is the amount of money coming to the continent, especially as it relates to startups and funding tech companies.[00:25:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And so as a result, like they realize the value as well and investing in music. And you see a lot of those partnerships. I mean, Chipper Cash is partnered with Burna Boy, right? So, like looking at, like, one of the most valued FinTech companies in Africa and one of the biggest artists in Africa, I think we're going to continue to see those relationships and those partnerships. I also think that it's going to evolve to a natural progression that we saw here as that artists want a bit more, a bit more of the pie. And so while, you know, speculating, I think a lot of these deals are, you know, cash, maybe a small range of cash and a little bit of equity.[00:26:06] Denisha Kuhlor: I think we're going to see artists want to become a lot more hands-on, especially for projects that are commoditized. And in a lot of ways, remittances or some of these FinTech products are, are really dependent on your ability to have a license. And so as artists maybe get to start to be able to navigate that landscape and bring together teams, I would be, I wouldn't be surprised to see them launch products of their own in similar spaces.[00:26:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, there's so much, I also look at what's happening in music specifically. Of course, as we know all the major record labels have a presence, not just in the, you know, continent overall, but in the different areas. I mean, it's huge. You can't just, you know, have a presence in South Africa and think you're going to cover everything happening sub Sahara or everywhere else.[00:26:52] Dan Runcie: Like, you need to be focused on what's happening in a particular area. And I think too, we saw earlier this year in Andreessen Horowitz had made its first investment in that mobile games company, Carry1st, I think we're going to see more and more of that. And I do think that we're going to see even more innovation in African music.[00:27:12] Dan Runcie: I know that all the streaming services have been trying to acquire more subscribers and more listeners in those places. But yeah, the dominant listening in many ways is still downloads of the companies that have been able to focus on that. So there's so many unique aspects that I'm excited to see play out.[00:27:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. Another, you know, another, I guess, thing that's really interesting to me is the kind of the conversation lately, as it relates to like what type of music has dominated. I've seen and talked to a lot of folks who kind of hypothesized that, like the reason music coming out of the continents and has grown so much is because it's very universal in a way where everybody can participate. Like say, on the dance floor, just experiencing the music versus kind of some of the hip-hop and rap music that has dominated that's really driven by club culture, and bottle popping culture, and VIP, and sections and, and that whole thing.[00:28:07] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, I find that, I find that dynamic fascinating as well in kind of the universal sense that it brings. And you see that on like TikTok, like how many, like, dances can you make to a song about like popping bottles versus just like a really great beat? [00:28:24] Dan Runcie: Right, right. Yeah. Do you feel like TikTok is having the same impact there on the continent that it is in the US? Are you noticing anything that's unique or different? [00:28:34] Denisha Kuhlor: No. I, I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. As someone who's spent, you know, time in Ghana as well as in the States, like, I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. [00:29:10] Denisha Kuhlor: So in a lot of ways, I feel like I go or spend time on the continent to see, to see what's new. And then TikTok is probably the biggest indicator of what's most likely to take off from there. But I would look at, you know, some of these cities, especially around nightlife, as more of the curators and, and the tastemakers and TikTok, just being a mirror of, in some ways, the work that's already been done. [00:29:31] Dan Runcie: Okay. So it's more so following the culture, not setting it. [00:29:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, to some extent that's, I would say maybe it's, it's a little different in the US because I do think that what we see on TikTok in some ways does set where people end up following, at least here, right? Because I think you just see so many trends originating from things people do. You're more likely to see clips from TikTok posted and shared on other platforms, as opposed to what you may see, vice versa. So I feel like, yeah. [00:30:05] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I think it's definitely, I think it's definitely very different and I think it's what makes being an artist a little, a little tricky because if you are an American artist, for example, and your song is becoming the biggest thing in Ghana, that probably has very, you know, different implications for how you navigate that or how you think about career and how you think about strategy.[00:30:24] Denisha Kuhlor: And, you know, unfortunately, I guess if you're an artist maybe who has risen on TikTok primarily in the States, what does that mean when it comes time for touring or time to do a date? How is that attention converted? Because the fact of the matter is American fans just have more opportunities to patronize their favorite artists.[00:30:42] Denisha Kuhlor: When you look at the amount of venues and just like analysis to, and ways you can interact with artists here, there's just so many, so many option. And so that conversion rate is high or is harder. [00:30:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that reminds me of something else I've heard artists say. This isn't anything new, but they've said that they always get more love when, US artists specifically, they always get more love when they perform outside of the US because the US artists, they see plenty of things there or the US fans necessarily, they have more opportunities to see you. So they're not necessarily as like wilder, they take the moment in as special as it is, as opposed to the artists that are going outside of the USA perform. [00:31:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, I talk to folks around when J Cole in Nigeria. And I think that was such a great example. Like, he had just released the album that day and was shocked that people knew, that people knew every word. And specifically, I think when artists come to the continent, it's always an occasion, right? People are really excited.[00:31:42] Denisha Kuhlor: Cardi B was a great example. People are just like really excited in some ways that they're like participating. Like, we didn't go to you, you came to us. You value us enough to do that. And I think, you know, regardless whether it's Africa or Japan or even Europe, like, there's just a, yeah, there's just a different level of, of appreciation.[00:32:00] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really, really hold onto it as an experience that will, that will be with them. And unfortunately, because of some of these, these festivals, like you can casually see an artist that you don't even like that much. Multiple times, like, you know, I don't, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but let's say if you go to every Rolling Loud festival in New York, just once a year, how many artists have overlapped or how many artists have you seen multiple times?[00:32:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Just as a result of patronizing that one Fest. And so as a result, the star power, the whole je ne sais quoi, kind of, kind of falls away. But I think you don't get that same type of, I guess, performance burnout or consumer burnout when you do headline your own tour because it's something different every time. It's experiencing, you know, Beyoncé fans, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but I think the beauty and what her Coachella performance was. Everyone knew the songs, right, we knew the music for the most part, but it, it was now just experiencing it in a different way and in a way that she wanted us to experience it. And unfortunately, I don't think artists get to do that in the same way with festivals they're not headlining. [00:33:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The Rolling Loud example always makes me think of Future. I always say that he has a low-key residency at that. I, I actually went back, and counted this. I forget how many Rolling Louds there have been, but at least 40% of them, he has been a headliner at.[00:33:23] Dan Runcie: I mean, it's a high number and to your point, I mean, I'm sure that paycheck's great. I, I'm not concerned about, you know, Future from a buddy perspective. He is prolific, and, I mean, he had one of the best-selling albums so far this year, but yeah, to your point that is kind of, I think, Future is a model that clicks with that as well.[00:33:42] Dan Runcie: He's going to put out music early and often. He's going to perform, and he's always going to be there. And I think for him it works, but it's just not going to be the same thing necessarily as. Beyoncé record or something like that.[00:33:55] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I'm curious, how do you think that impacts like an artist's elasticity, like, of course, with more and more artists selling their catalogs and just navigating the world as an artist very differently, how do you think that does impact their just elasticity in the music game overall? [00:34:12] Dan Runcie: I think it's twofold because I think that to one point, a lot of artists do feel like they have to keep the content machine turning. I think that's, that kinda line, lines up with Daniel Ek, Spotify CEO, and what he had said that was a polarizing statement at the time of you releasing music every three years, isn't going to be enough anymore. So I do think that someone like Future has lead into that and say, okay, I have this base and I know they're going to listen to everything that I put out, whatever I do it. So let me maximize that.[00:34:49] Dan Runcie: And I think for someone like Future because as popular as he is with a particular demo, one, his mainstream popularity isn't quite where it was like when like DS2 came out in 2015. So he's definitely serving more of the large, but, you know, core fans. And I think just given some of the issues that people have about him, and, of course, we've all seen the memes about, you know, problematic Future sending, you know, the text to the, to the ex or whatever it is.[00:35:20] Dan Runcie: Like, I don't think that he necessarily has the same marketability to let's say, go launch a, you know, huge, whatever it is, the same way that we see the Beyoncé or Rihanna do it. That doesn't mean he can't, he can obviously still has the platform. So I do think for him and even someone like an NBA YoungBoy who, you know, is even younger, then releasing music early and often kind of works for them because they may not get, you know, like, the big deal from whatever company wanting to partner with them, but they could reach their fans directly. So they're going to maximize that. So I think it's a little different though, when you are a Beyoncé or you are a Rihanna where, you know, there's so many other things you're doing, so when you release music, you do want it to hit because you want it to have this halo effect over everything else that you're doing.[00:36:06] Dan Runcie: There's anomalies to this, of course, I mean, or not anomalies, but I think some folks will do it differently. I mean, Drake is still going to give you a release every year, every other year. Kanye West has likely been doing the same, but I do think that that's still different than, you know, how like Future's going about it.[00:36:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Agreed. Agreed. I wonder 10 years from now or 15 years from now if Future is still touring or even releasing music, what that relationship looks like, and even what a tour would look like given the brevity of music he's put out. [00:36:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. To be honest, I think he likely will, just a matter of like, you know, what does it look like? How big and like, you know, like, the dynamics there. I recently posed the question on Twitter, which artist do you expect to still be releasing music when they're 70 plus years old? I don't think many people mentioned him, but I would definitely put him in that category. I feel like not too far away from 40. I do think that, you know, he loves this, for better or worse, and I feel like he'll likely continue. [00:37:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in, in rap, it's still so new, which is crazy that we have just seen enough examples of that. And so these probably, or artists like Future will be those, those examples for us to look back at.[00:37:20] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think so much of this, with this whole conversation, we're talking about the relationship between fans and how fans really help you format what you're doing and how to really set the framework for your career. And this aligns with the work that you're doing now. You recently launched and, and announce the company you have with Stan that is helping artists have a more fan-focused approach to their careers. So can you talk a bit more about that? [00:37:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So I recently decided to go full-time on a music tech startup called Stan, focused on audience engagement infrastructure, so really to help artists understand their audiences at a micro and macro level with the goal of providing better fan experiences. I kind of think it's crazy in some ways that every industry that wants to encourage a repeatable customer behavior has a loyalty program, but unfortunately, artists have very fragmented loyalty programs. And of course, the rise of NFTs and specific things as it relates to streaming platforms or even email lists. We've seen artists make great attempts, I think at doing and running really effective programs, but I really want to add more, more science to the arts to create, if you will, moments of magic on a greater scale. So artists can better connect with their fan bases. [00:38:36] Dan Runcie: Nice. Where did the inspiration come from? I'm sure a lot of it is things we talked about in this conversation.[00:38:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so much of it. Interestingly enough, it has come from writing. I long admired, of course, Trapital and, and other platforms. And really just wanted to explore, like, the conversation of fan relationships. And I think fan relationships have evolved so much, but wanted to kind of like push the, push the envelope in terms of what was being explored as it relates to the fan-artist relationship and also highlight how sophisticated fans are of course, with, you know, the rise of, of stans and how much they're covered. I think that people think of fans as just like, okay, like a casual listener and then the overzealous fan. And I think that's such a, that's such a gap and fandoms operate in such a sophisticated way, that we really needed to push the conversation on what that looked like.[00:39:25] Denisha Kuhlor: And as a result, the more I kept writing, the greater, like the problem became to me in the sense of, I think there's a lot of really, really amazing platforms designed to, you know, be direct to fan and connect the artists to the fan. But for anybody that's in any type of relationship business, I think it feels a little used car salesman to, like, try and extract money, like immediately, like, Hey, I just met you, like, give me this thing. And so I felt like there was a, an over-focus on the monetization of fan bases. Before fan bases were frankly strong enough to, to survive that monetization. So I kind of wanted to take it back a step to say, if you have a really strong relationship, relationships are everything, right? You'll be able to survive and not even just survive, thrive, because you can withstand volatility and maybe even turmoil.[00:40:13] Dan Runcie: So what does it look like from the artist's perspective? Like, if I wanted get involved, like, what does that engagement look like? [00:40:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So we're currently in the experimentation phase playing around with products and experiments that allow us to hit product-market fit. We're gearing up for a beta. So I love to talk to any artists that think really intensely about connecting with their fans. But ideally, we love to work with artists that, one, want to create, like, what I call moments of magic. And so like some great examples is J Cole, right? Like, not only the Dollar & A Dream Tour,, but going to, going to this fan's graduations or how do you actively and naturally involve yourself in your fan's life in a way that feels authentic and encourages a bidirectional relationship.[00:40:55] Denisha Kuhlor: As a result, a lot of the work that we're doing is analyzing artists and their current data as well as tapping into, into new data sets as a result of creating games, as well as just different forms for artists to connect with their fans. So any artist that, one, thinks deeply about this, that wants to understand their data better across multiple platforms. We, we'd love to talk to you, especially as we work with artists on an ad hoc basis to gear up for the launch of the platform. [00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. I mean, as we both know, this type of need is more crucial than ever, and there's so much data that can be misleading or misunderstood as you've talked about before you can't just go on a follower account. You can't just go on Spotify listens. Some of these things correlate, but a lot of them don't. [00:41:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, it's so true. You know, I think Spotify Wrapped is always so interesting to me in the sense that it's great, right? And what became even more interesting was when fans, fans, of course, post, but then to see artists post, right?[00:41:54] Denisha Kuhlor: And kind of what that meant for them and the excitement. And so there were things that I felt like off the bat, like, certain artists expected to get, right, you expected to have every country represented when it came to countries listened or just certain things represented, but I thought a lot about it.[00:42:08] Denisha Kuhlor: And I was just like, that one snapshot into a portion of your fan base. Like, what does that tell you from an actionable data perspective? But I guess before we can even know how relevant or how much you can guide your actions around those results is how much of your fan base is on Spotify? Like you mentioned, in actual, like, a lot of music is listened through downloads or partnerships with telcos and other streaming platforms.[00:42:31] Denisha Kuhlor: People use Audiomack, and Boomplay, and different streaming platforms. And so without, like, knowing an aggregate, what your Spotify listeners even represent when it comes to your audience? It can also be a slippery slope to make directions based on the most advanced data sets. If they're not really replicative of your whole audience.[00:42:51] Dan Runcie: Right. Because I think one of the things that I often see with Spotify specifically is that people will, especially in the US, they'll use it as like a rule of thumb to say that, okay, you see the data that comes to you from Spotify, either multiply it by three or three and a half or four. And maybe that gives you a rough idea of how big the overall streaming market is for a particular artist, but that works in the US that doesn't work for artists elsewhere. So being able to see those distinctions, especially considering how global the music industry is, that's where people can actually make actionable insight. [00:43:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. I think, you know, artists are really starting to approach their careers from a global standpoint will be really, really helpful moving forward.[00:43:33] Denisha Kuhlor: And as they consider the elasticity of their own careers, especially given that, like, smaller markets can be more forgiving, right? And so even if you don't want to necessarily go through the 50-city 500-person venue tour, what about going to just a smaller market globally and getting that feedback, being able to perform, really connecting with your fans that way too.[00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree with you. I think that artists are just going to really have to be global from day one and as a result just because you're familiar with consuming music in a certain way, isn't necessarily how your entire fan base is going to do it. So becoming more sophisticated around what that looks like and how you can best work with those platforms will be really, really advantageous moving forward.[00:44:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Definitely. [00:44:15] Dan Runcie: And you're in a great position to be able to do that. So I feel like the timing lines up well with this. So for you specifically, for the people that either are listening, or whether they're artists or working with artists, where can they follow up? Where could they go? [00:44:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah. So you can find me on Denisha Kuhlor at Twitter, love Twitter so always on there. And then you can just shoot me an email at d@stan.fan as well. [00:44:38] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Denisha, this was great. I feel like we covered a bunch of things that are happening right now in the industry and yeah, very timely. So thanks again for coming. [00:44:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Of course. Thanks for having me. [00:44:49] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

“Content is queen” is the mantra of this week’s Trapital’s guest, Sherrese Clarke Soares. The phrase has a double-meaning. For one, it’s the heart of her investment firm, HarbourView Equity Partners, which specializes in acquiring content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. But on a personal level, the phrase also represents her unique place in the industry as a rare Black and female founder. Sherrese founded HarbourView in 2021. This came on the heels of founding Tempo Music and ten-plus years at Morgan Stanley. These experiences have put Sherrese front and center with IP, understanding not only its financial incentives, but its cultural value too.HarbourView is backed with up to $1 billion in investment capital from Apollo Global Management. Within months of its founding, HarbourView acquired the music catalog of Luis Fonsi and with that, the decade-defining hit “Despacito.” It was the latest splash in the booming business of catalog sales that ecliped over $5 billion in 2021 alone. What’s Sherrese's strategy with Fonsi’s catalog plus other IP acquisitions? You’ll want to listen to the full episode to find out, plus a whole lot more. Here’s everything we covered during our interview:[3:27] Why Sherrese Created Her Own Firm, HarbourView[6:55] Why HarbourView Team Looks Different Than Any Other Investment Group[10:31] Hip-Hop Investments Being Overlooked[15:28] Why HarbourView Acquired Luis Fonsi’s Music Catalog[17:21] HarbourView’s “Forever Owner” Strategy To IP[22:47] Owning IP In web3 [24:22] Owning IP Vs. Owning Distribution [28:24] Current Market Conditions Impact On Catalog Investments[33:39] Music Industry In Better Shape Now Compared To 2008 Recession[35:54] Building A Next-Gen Asset Management Firm[37:25] Opportunities In Reggae & Ska[39:11] Importance of Mentorship in Private EquityListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Sherrese Clarke Soares, @sherreseclarkesoares Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross-pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside. [00:00:27] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Sherrese Clarke Soares. She's the founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, a global investment firm that's focused on premium content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. You may know the name from some of the music catalog acquisitions she's done a couple months back.[00:01:14] Dan Runcie: The firm acquired Luis Fonsi's catalog and got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. So we talked about that and we talked about Sherrese's strategy more broadly for the firm. One of the things that has always stuck out to me about the music investment space is that you don't see as many big deals for hip-hop, R&B, or genres outside of the US, especially considering how popular all of these are in the streaming era and likely will continue to be.[00:01:43] Dan Runcie: So we talked about how Sherrese's firm is focused on the wide space and how she sees us as an opportunity that others may not. And we talked more broadly about the entertainment space, what some of the investment opportunities that HarbourView is looking at outside of music and other emerging trends as they relate to the main streaming services and other technology platforms and more. Here's my conversation with Sherrese. All right. Today we're joined by Sherrese Clarke Soares and you've been a high-demand guest. So I'm glad we could finally do this. [00:02:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I'm glad we can, too. Thank you for having me. [00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think one of the reasons people want to hear from you is because you've accomplished a lot in your career both Morgan Stanley and at Tempo, and now you have your own firm and it'll be great to hear a bit about the journey and specifically that moment that you knew that you wanted to break out and launch your own company in this space. [00:02:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. Well, super great to be here. I guess just the journey is, you know, it's like one of those things that people talk about, it's the overnight success, 20 years in the making.[00:02:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: It's been something that I've wanted to do for a long time, which is to be an investor in the entertainment space, entertainment media, you know, sports, even, because of how much I believe in the power and the impact of what content does. You know, obviously, it brings stories across the world and has the ability to shape hearts and minds.[00:03:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But it also brings joy, like so much of what we all know and have fond memories of, especially when it comes to music are things that are momentous and important times in our lives. And so something that's so core to the human condition to me is nothing but a great investment opportunity. So that's, I think, you know, that's, I guess, one kind of critical piece of the journey.[00:03:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: As it relates to starting HarbourView HarbourView. I started in January, 2021 after resigning from my post as CEO of Tempo Music, which was a platform that I founded out of work I was doing at Morgan Stanley. There's so many things, you know, as I was putting together that platform, when I was at Morgan Stanley, I got multiple offers from different investors.[00:03:46] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We ultimately chose to work with Providence Equity Partners because of their intimate knowledge of the media space. But one of the things, I guess for me was I was, it was my first deal in terms of becoming an investor and finally getting to do what I wanted to do. So I didn't really, you know, in hindsight, negotiate the best deal for myself as it relates to, you know, economics for something that I was building with my own two hands.[00:04:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And it basically started from a blank sheet of paper in 2015 when I was pregnant with my son, actually. And so I really finally had this moment and this aha moment of, one, there's an opportunity, people are looking for people who, who are like me and have the track record that I have to back me and I was getting a lot of actually reverse inquiry when I was at Tempo for investors to back what I had built a lot of unsolicited inbounds.[00:04:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that was largely because I had spent so much time trying to curate investors to really support what it was that I was looking to build. And so that started to give me some confidence that, you know, that there was really an appetite for the firm and the vision that I was looking to build. And so I resigned in December of 2020 with, you know, the idea that I really was going to build a firm that was bigger than music.[00:05:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Tempo was also only designed to be a music rights acquisition platform. And I really wanted to do music 'cause I love it, but also do things outside of music as well. So I launched HarbourView and went about the business of finding the right partner for us. We knew we wanted to partner with a large scale asset manager to really turbo charge and accelerate our growth.[00:05:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we did that in October of 2021, where we launched a billion-dollar partnership with Apollo, but importantly, we are independent. We're an independent firm and we're able to retain that independent and that discretion over how we invest, how we think about building out the firm, which is great. And so was able to do that in October, launched officially in October in terms of our capital partnership and have been out, telling our story to the world and really looking at building a coalition that believes in our vision, which is in identifying opportunities that other people have a hard time seeing because they kind of only invest from their own, from their native walks. Whereas we, by virtue of being a diverse team, we believe in the power of thinking about things differently.[00:06:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, so that's what we've been up to. It's really exciting. I'm joined by exceptional humans that have joined me on this journey. We're all really aligned to the vision and the mission with all of my team, including my assistant, really participating in the equity upside of the business, where 13 full-time professionals, soon to be a 14th.[00:06:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, we've been pretty busy since October. We've made a number of investments, some of which we've announced, some of which we are about to announce. And so, continue to look forward to that. And we're, you know, pretty active in the market while also starting to think about investment opportunities outside of music, which we're really, which we're really, really jazzed about.[00:06:42] Dan Runcie: Could you talk a bit more about the opportunities specifically for your diverse team and the opportunities that investors saw in you that you feel that the market wasn't focusing on? [00:06:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah. So I would say, like, one of the things that's critical to us is obviously, you know, we are who we are. And so, you know, when you look at us as an investment team, we very naturally look different than any other investment team that you will see.[00:07:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, the collage of who we are as a team is always like my proudest moment of a page when I'm showing into anyone in the world and telling our story, because we are really sort of, you know, I know you're Jamaican, too, by heritage. And so, you know, as, as you know, we have a statement "Out of many, one people," and so it really does kind of resonate with that.[00:07:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so from that perspective, that was really resonating with how we talked to investors, including Apollo, which was great. They saw that in us immediately, but also how we think about the world. We think differently. And we think our difference is our strength. And so what that means is that we have approached the opportunities based with a very data-focused mindset.[00:07:45] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that data-focused mindset actually leads to the truth, which the truth is that we own a lot of things that are in the Latin space, and the hip-hop space, and R&B space, which we're all really proud of because we also are showing very quantitatively and, with data, that that's where the real growth and the real opportunity is in our perspective.[00:08:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we tend to try to, again, lead with this idea that the world is round and not flat. And what we mean by that is a lot of investors tend to do the same playbook over and over again, or a template that, you know, many other people do. We're very focused on building a pathway that allows us to not take anything for granted to not come into a situation with preconceived notions, to really try to identify what we think our value add is to an opportunity set, whether it's in music or otherwise and how we really can envision the future.[00:08:40] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that really, I think, has been resonating with investors, with our partners because it is a differentiated approach to how other people are thinking about it. In the music space, obviously, there's a lot of great firms, many of whom we admire who have done really fantastic things, but we just differentiate our strategy from that.[00:08:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are not aiming to be a music operator, a music label, or a publishing business, or otherwise. We are really aiming to be a really strategic partner from an economic perspective and financial perspective to the overall ecosystem. So that really allows us to think creatively and to do really creative things and really be respectful of the fact that, you know, the creative ecosystem itself has gone through its own journey, has offers and brings a lot to the table. But in a similar vein, we as seasoned investors bring a lot to the table, too. And so we're able to engage in the way that's differentiated from others that are kind of purely looking at it from an operating perspective. [00:09:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We're looking at it from, like, okay, how can we join forces together and really drive upside for both sides of the equation? So we, we typically try to, in anything that we do, any investment that we make, structure how everybody benefits on a go-forward basis together. [00:09:49] Dan Runcie: I'm very glad you're focused on this piece because one thing that I've always scratched my head at is I've talked to other people who are investors in this space.[00:09:58] Dan Runcie: And I would always hear from them specifically about hip-hop music that, oh, well, it isn't mature enough. And they don't feel like it's proven or they feel like it's too disposable or they feel like sampling is a challenge. But if you look at streaming data, which a lot of this has been influenced by, especially with the current wave of acquisitions.[00:10:18] Dan Runcie: It's hip-hop, it's Latin music where we think about the genres that have shown the power and the potential, especially on a worldwide perspective. I'm like, you can't overlook this forever. So, you know, in many ways it's their loss.[00:10:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Well, mostly, yeah, you know, people do what they're very comfortable with. So it's like things that they know, see, and hear, which, you know, I get it. And I'm okay with, I guess, to a point. You know, I'm excited about everything in the classic rock space, as much as anybody else. Like, I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan of all of it, like, grew up on all of it, enjoyed it, listened to it, but I'm also a child that was raised in the hip-hop era.[00:10:53] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like hip-hop is going to be 50 years old next year. Like, that's not an immature thing. You know, I don't think we're calling 50-year-old people children, in which case, there is a lot that underlines it. And so it's all about how you sift through the data, how you look at what your, what you think is driving and where you think things are going to go, which gives us a point of view that we think again, is differentiated.[00:11:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We have a lot of things in our portfolio that we believe to be really strong for the culture, really strong from a legacy perspective. And we think has really extraordinary growth potential for a variety of different reasons. And so we don't believe that view. And again, we don't have any preconceived notions about what's going to work and what isn't going to work.[00:11:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We really try to be genre-agnostic. So, you know, we own a little bit of everything. Like, we're closing this week, a couple of things in the country market, which we're really excited about. We've closed things in the rock market, which we're really excited about, but we are never going to ignore genres such as hip-hop, R&B, et cetera.[00:11:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Latin are places where it may be a very local experience. Like, one of the artists in our catalog is Eslabon Armando. And last week, he crossed a billion streams and was on the cover of Billboard. And he is a Mexican, local Mexican artist, and one of the best in the game, but not very well known here in the US market or in the, you know, pop, you know, the, the pop market, if you will.[00:12:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so just giving a sense for there is a lot to local music, and so I'm sure you can, you know, commiserate, like growing up, what did you listen to on Saturday and Sunday morning in your house? It was not necessarily, like, you know, what was playing on the radio. It was what your mom and dad grew up to.[00:12:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Those rhythmic sounds of soca or reggae or local, which is very local music, but there are billions of people like us around the world that connect with a very differentiated experience. And so we're really bullish on things like that because we know that just, we just know that intrinsically based on who we are, that this is popular music.[00:12:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we also know intrinsically that, you know, technology is bringing broadband globally to a lot of places where it hasn't existed before. So you intersect those two things and you see growth. And we again drive through data to come to these conclusions, which again, leads us with what I think is the best outcome, a data-driven, you know, evidential support and not just an empathetic one, that this is all real.[00:13:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we have known it for a long time in technology has democratized it, such that we can see it evidenced in a real way. [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the data-driven approach a few times. Is there anything that the data is telling you that you see as a huge opportunity coming up soon that you think that others may be overlooking or not thinking about as much?[00:13:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, 100%. I don't share that though, because then everybody starts, the next thing, you know, people start chasing down my sources. Yeah, no, 100%. That's I think how we, that's how we're differentiated. That's how we find differentiated opportunities. And, you know, we think about that every single day. So we are constantly building our own proprietary data system that we love.[00:14:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we don't think that anybody else has anything nearly matched to it. I started to build one at my previous platform, but didn't have the resources candidly to actually do it. And now that I do have the resources, we've built it out full sum in a way that we can analyze things from back, you know, backwards and forwards, including historical information all the way through to, you know, tapping into what's happening in real-time platforms, such as, you know, Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, et cetera.[00:14:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So it gives us a lot of really great insight, which again, I think just makes us approach this a little bit differently than even my predecessor. So, yeah, so it allows us to see a lot of stuff. And again, if I told you what I was seeing, then everybody would just try to go copycat it. What they probably can't copycat is how we've been able to build a really great platform around data analytics that we just continue to invest in.[00:14:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But that's who we are as a DNA, right? Like other people kind of use their DNA, the lead, their platforms, and they have great success in different ways, but our DNA is really around leading around that stuff. And so we're excited about that. [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: I hear you on that. And yeah, definitely don't want to give away any of the trade secrets, but let's talk about one of the deals we can talk about, which is the Luis Fonsi catalog, which your company had acquired. With that, you got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. What did it take to make that deal happen? [00:15:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think what it takes is a couple of things. The first is obviously again, leading with data, having a sense for the marketplace. Again, going back to like a local language, Spanish language song. It's going to resonate with a lot of people. They may not be people that you individually know, but it resonates with a lot of people.[00:15:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So from a thesis perspective, completely right on point. And secondly, like just spending time with Luis and the team, Angie and Denny and others, you know, we really connected on what we want, what at least what I personally want HarbourView to be, and how impactful I want it to be for the entertainment business overall, but particularly for recognizing the impact, the cultural impact that we, and I say, we like broadly people of color have in the world.[00:16:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And again, we buy everything, but it's important to me for that to be a level playing field. So I think it was really just spending time with the team, working through sort of the thesis, letting them know who we were thematically as a firm, what we care about. And then that really allowed us to sort of see a really great path together.[00:16:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, again, we built in partnership into that deal as we do into every deal. And that allows us to basically, he wants us to win. We want him to win, keep rooting for each other. And all the deals that we have in our portfolio, and we've closed close to 30 deals already so far, are all kind of very similar and kind of pick up on those very same themes of like, look, the things that we know and love are really impactful and important. And you're seeing it drive through, drive through data. [00:17:03] Dan Runcie: And after you acquire a catalog like this or any of the other ones in your portfolio, what does the post-sale activity on the asset look like? I know that in this space, a lot of people have talked about whether some investors are buy and hold versus trying to maximize the asset themselves.[00:17:21] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So the post-sale is, you know, look, we aim to be the forever owners of these assets and we look to provide return to our partners in various ways that we think is differentiated and one that we believe there's nobody better than our team to actually deliver. So we think about, like, how to create liquidity events while still maintaining the ownership ultimately of the catalog itself.[00:17:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so some of that will be in portfolio strategy. And so portfolio strategy for us is like, yeah, we're building an accumulating, a really huge library. We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside.[00:18:24] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that too, that extends into the multimedia aspect too. And obviously why you don't just want to have holded music. You're looking at other assets too, because obviously IP and music's there, but there's so much potential. You're looking at movies and TV shows and just where everything's going with video streaming on that front.[00:18:42] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Absolutely. But also think about this, two things. One is, again, my team is incredible, just again, an exceptional group of people, but they're athletes, they're not one-trick ponies. And so, you know, they really can think about things across the space. The other thing that's also happening as we engage deeper and deeper in the music space is the same thing is true from the parties that we partner with on the catalog side.[00:19:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, many have ideas of things that they want to do way beyond music. And sometimes people, you know, tend to hold a lot of that in a box. But if you look at, you know, culture, culture is led by music in a lot of ways. And so you can see that music is like, you know, kind of a leading indicator and that being a leading indicator helps you to really identify where to go next.[00:19:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we think that all of these things work very symbiotically together in giving our partners and our partners on the other side is people who are looking to invest in, you know, they, you know, engage in music engagement as well because they engage in music as it relates to how you're thinking about developing either new product on the film and television side and, or integrating it into what they're putting together.[00:19:51] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, again, there's, you know, there's a soundtrack. Every movie, just think about the synergies that exist across both. And so we're very focused on really thinking holistically about the learnings that we get from really understanding the asset itself, understanding the entertainment asset itself and how we think that can apply in other spaces as well and really being very, very intentional about leveraging that knowledge across a wider pool and really creating some of that synergistic upside opportunity. [00:20:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's how we think about it. And again, it's very differentiated than others who have been solely kind of a music operator with a fund vehicle that's attached to it or big firms that maybe only take kind of a point of view at one point in time on the relative value of the attractiveness of music.[00:20:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are residents, I like to say. We are not tourist. And means that we're here to stay. Like, we like the neighborhood, this is our block. We know the lady down the street, we know the person up the street, people may move in and out, but we'll be here. This is our home and this space of really kind of thinking about how all these things work together.[00:20:55] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure it's an exciting time on that front too, with just all the other emerging IP-related opportunities, whether it's with metaverse in gaming or other related things. What is that piece have been like? [00:21:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I think we're at early innings, you know, as my dear friend Morgan DeBaun, who's a CEO and founder of Blavity, likes to say, we're sort of in the MySpace era of Web 3.0, right? So like we all had a MySpace account and we all thought that was going to be it for social media. But truthfully, obviously we're looking at Facebook, and Instagram, and TikTok, and other things as sort of like what became the mature execution businesses of what social media is. I think Web 3.0 and the metaverse and all that is probably in the same place.[00:21:36] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So super excited about the potential, but we're still really early on what it will look like over time. But I think it's going to be huge for anybody who owns premium IP because that's, you know, again, how do we all decide how we're going to engage? We're going to engage because they're going to be sort of the ability to engage with anchoring around IP that we all kind of know love and care about.[00:21:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So I think it's going to be a really interesting time and an exciting time, exciting time as it relates to sort of the next frontier for a digital distribution. I mean, I'd like to tell people like, it's 2022. In 2012, which was 10 years ago, we weren't talking about streaming, we were talking about downloads and maybe sort of this disruptive technology where people were, obviously, at that point, pirating music. But we weren't talking about, you know, streaming leading how we consume both video and audio content.[00:22:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And 10 years from now, I think, streaming will be, is still a big part of the business model, but we've been talking about something else, too, and we don't know exactly what that is. But what we do know and if we look at over decades, not just the last 10 years, multiple decades, is that as distribution platforms pull up IPs at the center of it and really drives how those distribution platforms, you know, gain eyeballs, right?[00:22:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, I don't know if you remember back in the day when you were all growing up and, you know, if you had Comcast or, you know, I don't remember all the cable services anymore, AT&T. Every once in a while, there'd be a dispute between ESPN and AT&T and the screen would go black and you couldn't get your sports content.[00:23:03] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And who won over time, you know, the content owners, ESPNs and others, who were providing this kind of premium content to allow us all to pay a hundred dollars a month or $200 a month or whatever it is that we pay for cable to exist, you know, really kind of what we're able to command rates and outcomes. And so if you think about that as sort of, again, even a leading indicator around the power of content, this is sort of what we believe in intrinsically. And we believe that that's going to be applied in a Web 3.0 and the metaverse world as well. [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: That's a great point. And I mean, I couldn't agree more that, I think about a question I posed to a few people a few months back. It was on whether they would rather own universal music group stock or Spotify stock.[00:23:47] Dan Runcie: And the answers were pretty split. And I think I was a bit surprised and I was like, you wouldn't want to have the underlying asset that is having all of these other distribution deals with all of these other growing platforms as they are, you would rather take the bet on the one. And of course, you know, there's a case to be made on the other side, too.[00:24:03] Dan Runcie: But to your point about ESPN and the cable services, the underlying content does end up being the one that triumphs. [00:24:10] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. And I mean, listen, like Spotify positively changed the way that the business model and was like the leader and so kudos to Dan Ek and everything that he's built.[00:24:22] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so I think there is something to being kind of at the forefront of changing a distribution model because there's obviously a lot of room, and it's hard for people to catch up as we are seeing, and obviously why they in so much share. But just to be kind of a generic distribution provider, that's less interesting to me personally, because you get squeezed on both sides.[00:24:41] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You got to pay for the content and then you got to, you got to compete on price with your subscriber base. And so that's just to squeeze into the middle. That's just pure math. But when you see like platforms like, and we know Netflix is going through its adjustment period now, but when you see platforms like Netflix and Spotify, what ends up happening with them because they lead.[00:24:58] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And they're so far ahead as it relates to redefining the category, that's why they end up capturing a lot of value. So I hear the debate and understand the debate philosophically, but if you're just asking me, like, would I rather own IP versus would I rather own distribution, it's IP for me all day. Now, if somebody was going to redefine what distribution looks like, then, and in a way that we think is going to be a category killer, that may be a great place to invest because as we've seen, you know, distribution models that, that lead the category and disrupt actually win, for at least an extended period of time.[00:25:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's a great point at Spotify, too. I feel like they did change the space in what they've been able to do, and even how they've continued to diversify their own income streams. I think they've shown it had the proof points, you know, of what works. And I think similar to Netflix, to some extent, you know, they're changing a few things just given with the way things are, but.[00:25:52] Dan Runcie: I feel like it's an age old thing. I think one other aspect, I think about, too, just given you mentioned 2012 versus 2022, here we are now. And what the next decade will look like. I look at an app like TikTok where it wasn't a few years ago, where not that many people were talking about it, except for, you know, the early users.[00:26:10] Dan Runcie: And now it has a billion monthly active users. Fastest app to get there. That just means that that timeframe of getting to a billion monthly active users for the next thing is likely going to be even shorter than it was for TikTok. [00:26:23] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's right. And by the way, and now TikTok is super influential on music that we all listen to, on advertising, on how people get exposed to different things.[00:26:32] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, you know, the speed with which, to your point, getting to a billion active monthly users, you know, technology has really allowed to persist is incredible. And so I only think that'll get faster and faster and, you know, again, content, again, back to TikTok, like, you know, it's popularity was indexed off the back of music.[00:26:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so there's no denying that again, back to like, Seeing what's going to be the next thing. What's the next distribution model, what's the next use case will continue to proliferate. We've got inklings of things that exist now, whether it's out of home exercise or, you know, whether it's other social media platforms or whether it's gaming.[00:27:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we've inklings of that, but it's all still really small in the grand scheme of the revenue pie. But to, you know, as we've discussed and to your point, like the speed with which technology is changing and moving forward, the next next thing may be on the horizon in the next two, three years, or maybe something that, again, we're not even talking about now in the way that we weren't really talking about TikTok in 2018 or 19. And so yes, technology will move quickly and the way to engage will continue to expand the monetization opportunities. [00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. The big opportunities there, especially on the longer term, but I'm wondering on the short term though, I've heard a few people talking about just where things are with the market.[00:27:52] Dan Runcie: We're recording this now June, 2022, and the overall market may not be quite as fraught as it was say, let's say October, November 2021, but there's still deals that we're seeing happening, especially on the investing side. And I'm hearing rumors about this Pink Floyd catalog getting nearly half a billion dollars potentially, but what's your take right now on where things are and whether or not the current market conditions will impact anything that we've seen on the catalog investment side? [00:28:24] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think, listen, I think, you know, as interest rates rise and as relative value to other risk asset classes change, you may see people who are tourists, from an investor perspective, leave the space because they may say, okay, instead of investing in music, I'm going to invest in this other thing, which will decrease buyer demand and may put some weakness into the market.[00:28:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, so I think that being said, you know, people should expect that that may happen in the next few, next few years, or the next, you know, 12 to 18 months is probably a better time frame. But I would say that as it relates to the overall environment, whether it's inflation, supply chain, things of that nature, depending on how a business is positioned and the way that we buy we're positioned really well as a really great hedge to all of that.[00:29:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We don't really have the same exposure to that volatility. The price point, particularly in music from a consumer perspective is actually a really great value. And so we don't see a lot of churn expected. The way that consumers consume music is actually, you know, very accessible, even relative to video content, right?[00:29:37] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Because video content, you buy into platform, A, B, or C for the exclusive content they have on those respective platforms. Whereas in music, like you can pretty much listen to anything you want across all the platforms pretty homogenously. So that I think is, you know, proves to be a really great asset class, especially in this period of uncertainty, especially with the public equity markets being as volatile as it is.[00:30:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, people having, you know, a hard time getting a sense for where real value is with tech, valuations being as volatile as they are, because their indexed to the overall equity markets, public equity markets, et cetera, like things like what we do as illiquid, but also, you know, non-correlated for sure, but certainly also countercyclical really actually create a really great investment opportunity for people who are looking to reduce volatility or especially market volatility in their portfolio.[00:30:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So like, nothing's really changed for us in the last. You know, six to nine months since, for the portfolios that we own. Everything's continuing to come in as expected. We don't really see any, like, real top line impact. Whereas other businesses are seeing really top real top-line impact, they have wage inflation, they have supply chain issues.[00:30:49] Sherrese Clarke Soares: They've got obviously interest rates. They have overall market volatility. And so all that will create kind of near-term uncertainty for those companies and therefore for those company valuations, which we just don't have that same type of volatility. So we're actually really excited about, you know, the marketplace in the near term because we think we'll have a great, you know, we'll have, we have a lot of dry powder and, in having a lot of dry powder, we also are positioned in an opportunity where we have the opportunity to really kind of lean in. So, that's us [00:31:21] Dan Runcie: Right. In a lot of ways, that was the pitch, I think, when a lot of these deals were happening, people were attracted to the non-correlated assets and here it is, right? Like, we're seeing what's happening elsewhere. [00:31:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of times for entertainment, me being around the entertainment market from an investing and financing perspective for the better part of 20 years, you're always telling people how non-correlated it is, but usually you're kind of having this conversation and the market's all working together and in parallel. Well, what's been interesting about the last few years, starting with COVID is that you've been able to in real-time, see like, oh yeah, it really is non-correlated. Everything else is moving, you know, down into the left and we're moving up into the right because of the way that we consume, because you're basically, again, content in particular, but music even more special, is connected to the human condition.[00:32:13] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We all have a favorite song. You know, you're going to go to a birthday party or a wedding, you're going to hear music. You're going to go to a kid's performance at the end of the year, you're going to hear music. You know, we all have things that are attached to really important moments in our lives. And we use music and consume music more than we even realize.[00:32:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Sometimes we consume it very, you know, proactively, but a lot of times we can consume it very subconsciously. We go into a grocery store, we go to the gym, we step into our car, listen to the radio. Like, you're engaging with something that again, you know, is very pervasive. It's ephemeral, and it's everywhere, and it allows it to really kind of be resilient on a relative basis.[00:32:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think one of the differences too, between this timeframe, and let's say 2008, when there was the last recession, then the music industry itself, the business model and the state of the industry, just wasn't in the best place to begin with. Even beforehand, just given where things were with CD sales, and piracy, and digital downloads still, you know, and I guess you had, you still did have road tones and things like that at the time, but it wasn't where it is now, where yes, there has been a bit of a slide back with a lot of the stocks. However, music itself was in a strong place. So not only are you able to prove that out, there was an underlying business model here that continues to prove that people are going to listen to all of this music and consume all of this music, regardless of, you know, what may be happening outside.[00:33:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think, look, you know, at the end of the day, all businesses will go through business model adjustments. You know, the music business went through theirs. The film business just recently went through theirs. And I think it's coming on the other side of that, where that's why you're seeing all the major film studios have, you know, a something plus right.[00:33:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: A Disney Plus you know, a Discover Plus, or what have you, and starting to move towards having a streaming model as well. So all businesses, no matter what shape or size, no matter what industry media or not will go through disruptions on how the business is consumed and will have these periods of time.[00:34:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And I don't think the entertainment business is, you know, somehow isolated from that or immune to. But what you will see over the long duration is again, back to kind of like the underlying consumption. I'd say the other point to make is like, it's hard to look at stock prices in this current context to really kind of give you kind of a good point of view on volatility or, and, or valuation only because it's a reference point, but we also have to remember that most of the public markets is actually managed by quantitative balancing if you will, but not necessarily active and, and active and thoughtful and you know, investing strategies. A lot of it is very passively managed. And so as there is volatility that injects itself in the overall markets themselves, you see a lot of rebalancing of portfolios that actually just bring prices down that may have nothing to do with the underlying fundamentals of the asset class itself.[00:35:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's just something to kind of keep in mind if you're looking at the stocks of universal Warner or any of the other kind of music traded stocks as well. [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The other big piece with this, and you mentioned this earlier, is just the distinction between the tourists and the residents here, right? These types of things end up impacting much more of the tourists who maybe, they only had one foot in and it doesn't take much, you know, ripple for them to move, or shadow, adjust, or downscale what they were doing, where the people that were actually building. Are still in it. I mean, I'm still seeing startup deals happening.[00:35:36] Dan Runcie: I'm still seeing rounds being closed. And I think that's, it's likely a signal to the people that were more so, you know, dedicated. And they're also just showed with the investment market, saw them as you know, from an opportunity perspective. So I, I think that's a, like you mentioned earlier, that's a big piece of this, too.[00:35:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's what's going to differentiate us. Like, you know, our goal for HarbourView is to build an institution not dissimilar to a lot of people who I admire in the private equity space. And you know, there's been a lot of great work that's been done over the last 35, 40 years building kind of private equity, asset management businesses.[00:36:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we're hopeful to build kind of the next generation of that, and really build a scale of industrialized force in the entertainment and media space from a sector perspective. And so as we think about that, we really think about who and what we want to be and being residents of the space is a big piece of that because that's where we can identify places where we can really dig in and support high quality management teams that we really like and want to engage with.[00:36:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's where we can really dig in support, really having a long term view over owning these assets and really find ways to identify value when other investors, again, kind of have a relative value in their mind and have moved on to the next greatest or the next hottest thing. We want to really be focused on really kind of you know, building, obviously, we have to deliver great returns. And the only way that we can scale to being an industrialized force is having top-quartile returns. So we aim for that just as much as anybody else, but we think that there's a really great way of doing that as being a part of the ecosystem, you know, fully entrenched in the world versus just being there to be opportunistic.[00:37:13] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, shifting gears a little bit. One thing that I know is near and dear to both of us as Jamaicans, we got to talk about what the opportunities in reggae and ska look like. [00:37:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen. I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge fan. Like, people often ask me, I often get the question in these interviews. Like, what are you listening to? And if I'm really honest, you know, the car ride is the Bob Marley radio station. Every day, my kids are constantly like, why do we always have to listen to Bob Marley? And then every morning the kids get up to Here Comes the Band and Machel Montano, that's the way to kind start our high-energy day.[00:37:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we're big fans and believers. And to the extent that there's opportunities out there to acquire, we're happy, happy, happy to do it. You know, one thing for about us as a firm is we try not to be a pursuer. Like, if somebody's open to selling, we want to have every opportunity to, to take a look and to compete and to compete on the merits and put our best foot forward.[00:38:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But we are not interested in making anybody feel like we're after just being vultures or after their work. But I say all that to say like, we don't own a lot of reggae and ska or soca today. But if anybody who is of those audiences is listening and is excited to sell, we are happy, happy, happy participants and active participants in that market, but we're never going to, you know, go and try to, you know, force people to, to give up rights or sell rights that, that they may not be ready to.[00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like it's only a matter of time before we see one of those deals or, or dance hall too. I feel like we're going to see it soon enough. [00:38:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Exactly. [00:38:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we let you go, I do want to talk a bit about mentorship and apprenticeship 'cause I know that's something you've talked about in past interviews as well and just how important it is specifically in private equity and in finance and I want to hear how that's been really helpful for you and your career, and then extending that to the next generation. [00:39:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So we're big believers in that. We're taking interns this summer, I believe one from Howard and one from HBS. So we're big believers in that. We're a small firm, but we're still having an intern class, which, you know, I think speaks to sort of this idea of giving people an opportunity to just come learn.[00:39:29] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And us to learn from them and what they can bring to the table. So, yes, it is absolutely 100%. And in an apprenticeship business, I've learned so much from so many really great people, inclusive of all the people that I've worked with over the years at Morgan Stanley. You know, tons, tons of people I could give you lots, a whole long laundry list of names of people there, or even all my new partners at Apollo have been just great in, you know, rolling up their sleeves and thinking about things with me as we've been, you know, looking at, you know, various opportunities.[00:40:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's been really great. I think one of the things that we're very focused on as well is really trying to be thoughtful about who we want to be as investors and how we want to, and how we think and we derive our own POV. So we, we try to basically take all the things that we want to take from those experiences, learning how to obviously, you know, do all the diligence and all that stuff are things that I've learned coming up, but having this strong conviction around what we care about, thematically, who we want to be as an investor, how we want to be seen as an investor, how we want to partner with management teams, I think has been things that we've sort of curated based on the experiences that we've had, but mentorship and apprenticeship has been huge part of my career and will never not be.[00:40:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I mean, I, I have mentors today, like even to negotiate my deal that I negotiated with Apollo, I had great people like the great Stu Bergen, who's a good friend of mine, who was a senior executive at Warner music, who really helped me to think through that. Or Robert Smith who's obviously the CEO and founder of Vista Equity Partners, or Damien Dwin who, as a long-time friend of mine, has started multiple platforms have really been people who have been in my ear on like, okay, you could do this.[00:41:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: This is how you negotiate that. This is the value that you bring, make sure you stand firm or this or that. And it's been just really great to always have those people around, but it's also really empowering to also, you know, set a vision for what it is and who it is that we want the firm to be, and what it is we want our investing style to be, and what it is we want to be to the marketplace.[00:41:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So, so it's been great. I've been very fortunate over the years to basically have exposure to people who have built great businesses, who have seen lots of things, seen lots of different points of adversity, but also made way, made time to pour back into me. And so we think it's responsible for us to pour back into others too. So we're very, very, very focused on that. [00:41:53] Dan Runcie: Well said. And yeah, I think especially people hearing that you're still reaching out to people to help close the big deals that you have given everything that you've accomplished is just a reminder that yes, like this doesn't stop. Everyone that you see is learning. You know, this is a constant thing for sure. [00:42:09] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, 100%, 100%[00:42:11] Dan Runcie: Well, Sherrese. This is great. Thank you so much. I think people are going to definitely feel like they'll get a closer lens as to how these deals go down and just a lot of the thought behind it, but I'm sure people will also be listening and waiting for the headlines to see the next deals to drop as well.[00:42:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes. Yes. We'll be coming to a neighborhood, neighborhood near you soon. [00:42:34] Dan Runcie: And if people do want to keep track, where can they follow HarbourView or where can they do that? [00:42:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Follow HarbourView on LinkedIn, on Instagram also, and then, you know, check out our website. Yeah. [00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Sherrese, thanks again.[00:42:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Thank you so much. So great to see you. Take care. [00:42:51] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

After a massive week inside the music industry, I had to bring Wall Street Journal music and entertainment reporter Neil Shah onto Trapital for an emergence podcast on Drake’s surprise “Honestly, Nevermind” album drop and Beyonce’s own announcement for her first album in six years, “Resistance.”For Drake, he once again switched it up — not only his hairstyle (cornrows this time), but his musical style. Drake is known to experiment with different sounds and flows, but “Honestly, Nevermind” is a complete 180-degree turn for hip-hop’s biggest star. It’s a dance album and actual rapping from Drake is mostly absent, which not surprisingly, has led to a mostly lukewarm response. Drake’s musical output has always been high, but “Honestly, Nevermind” ironically comes shortly after signing a new $400m deal with Universal Music Group. With a fresh contract and the economics of the streaming industry as a whole, Drake is incentivized for consistent music rather than “classics.” And whether fans and critics “catch up” to Drake’s new sound or not, he’s getting paid big-time from new releases either way. And then there’s Beyonce. Details about her next album are slim besides its drop date, July 29. Announcing an album in advance runs contrary to her last release, “Lemonade”, which was surprise dropped in 2016 — a completely different era in streaming when exclusives were still a thing (Lemonade was on TIDAL only). Even for a star the size of Beyonce, one has to wonder what kind of pull she has in today’s streaming era.Neil and I covered all things Drake and Beyonce albums in this episode of Trapital. Here’s all our talking points:[2:31] First Reaction To Drake’s Surprise Album Announcement[7:12] Drake’s First Album Post-UMG $400 Million Deal[10:56] Significance Of Drake’s Pivot To Dance Music[13:25] Is Drake’s Popularity Losing Steam?[19:20] Did Beyonce’s Album Announcement Affect Drake’s Release?[23:06] Music Industry’s Evolution Since Beyonce’s Previous Album Drop[30:21] Will Beyonce’s Renaissance Album Be A Multi-Release?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

This week, we’re doing something a little different and sharing a fantastic episode from our friends over at the Broken Record podcast. On Broken Record, acclaimed producer Rick Rubin, bestselling author Malcom Gladwell, and former New York Times editor Bruce Headlam talk with the musicians you love about their lives, inspiration, and craft. Today, we’ll hear Rick’s conversation with one of the most innovative artists in music, Missy Elliot. Hope you enjoy! We’ll be back next week with a new episode of Trapital.Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

Joining us on Trapital for the second time is Milana Lewis, co-founder and CEO of Stem. She last joined me at the end of 2019 and Stem has been in hyper-growth mode since then. Stem helps artist get paid in a clear and timely manner — not only through online-based financial tools, but music distribution too. As a former talent agent for UTA, Milana noticed it wasn’t exactly cut and dry how artists were paid out. That issue is exacerbated inside the music industry due to murky record deals and no-so-transparent streaming numbers. And these problems are affecting artists of all sizes, from the Meek Mill’s of the world, to independent ones.Enter Stem, which just raised a $20 million. With the the fresh injection of capital, Stem wants to extend its digital tools across the industry even further. It’s a completely new level of transparency inside a industry that’s notorious for being the opposite. Here’s everything Milana and I covered in our interview: [0:49] Stem Raised $20 Million In Latest Funding Round[7:03] The Differences Between Label And Independent Artists Are Becoming Smaller[11:07] Music Labels ARE Becoming More Artist Friendly[13:05] Companies That Stem Models Itself After[16:19] Payments Are An Issue Across Entertainment, Not Just Music[19:29] Technical Workers Pivoting Into The Creative Side[23:03] Stem’s Unique Positioning In Music Distribution [33:47] Asking Artists “Why?”Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Milana Lewis, @milana Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTIONTRAPITAL 129[00:00:00] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction that people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services. And then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store.[00:00:16] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized.[00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Milana Lewis, the founder and CEO of Stem, a company that's on a mission to provide clarity and accountability to the music industry through modern financial tools for artists, labels, and the people they collaborate with. Milana is a return guest to the Trapital podcast. We did our first episode back in 2019, this was actually at Stem's office and this was down in LA. This one we did remote though. It was great to catch up because Stem just raised $20 million to further its mission. So in this episode, we talked all about the plans for that money, where things are going with Stem, where things are going in the music industry, and why this is so important.[00:01:31] Dan Runcie: And one of the reasons it's important is because of a op-ed that Milana recently wrote in Billboard which highlights the difference between artists independence and artists autonomy. And Milana's case is that artists really want to have autonomy with their careers. And they may still be willing to partner with others.[00:01:52] Dan Runcie: So we talked about the distinction there, what that means truly. And there are a few artists, examples that she use that we brought up here and also what that means for Stem in the future that it's building towards. So, we talked about that, and we talked about where Stem sits relative to other distribution services, what customer acquisition looks like for them, and some of the other ways that the business is structured, what's in place for the future. We also talked about a few recent trends happening in the industry, which is great to talk to the actual operators in this space building it. So I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do, too. Here's my chat with Milana Lewis.[00:02:31] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have a return guest, Milana Lewis, who is the founder and CEO of Stem, which just raised $20 million. So Milana welcome back to the podcast and give us an update. How are things going? And what's the latest, especially with the new round you all have? [00:02:47] Milana Lewis: Thank you, Dan, for having me back. I love sort of seeing the growth of the show, too, and the audience, and just more and more people appreciating the work that you're doing. So it's fun to come back. 20 million, we raised it, gives us more runway fuel to continue building what we want to build. And we've been pretty heads down, just scaling up the team to execute. [00:03:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that in terms of scaling. I mean, I know that last time we had talked, it was shortly after a raise and a pivot that you all had as well. And I feel like post pandemic though. Now the market's a little bit of a different place, but there are more and more independent artists that want to create, that want to use things and want to build.[00:03:29] Dan Runcie: So how has that influence been, especially with you all and the plans you have and where you want to take things?[00:03:35] Milana Lewis: Yeah, for sure. It's funny, you sort of used the word pivot again, and we never really pivoted. So the vision for Stem has always been about how do we ensure a music future where people can expect to get paid in a clear and timely manner, right? And that's not one that exists today, quite frankly. And I think if anything, music has the worst reputation doing that out of if any other industry. And so when we think about how do we bring that mission to life, what we realized the best way to enter the market for us was to start a music distribution company.[00:04:05] Milana Lewis: If you think about it for an artist as a business owner, it all starts with the song. The song is the first product that they create. Without that song, there's not much of a business otherwise. And the innovation we brought to the market really was around how they split the earnings from that song. And for many different reasons, that was something that became really attractive to all types of artists, right?[00:04:26] Milana Lewis: Artists that are independent but larger and leaving a major label system, as well as artists that are just starting off their careers. And what we realized is that the problem that we wanted to solve was really one for the artists who were operating more like a business, so there was a team of different people around them who needed to get paid a percentage of their earnings.[00:04:44] Milana Lewis: There were various collaborators coming in and out of projects, and the complexity there is very different than the complexity of an artist who's more of a DIY artist. And when you and I last talked, we had to make the really hard decision to part ways with the clients that, you know, fit the profile of more of the early stage artists, where their complexity of the payments was a lot more simplified, where we felt like they already had enough tools they were using to do that.[00:05:08] Milana Lewis: And we wanted to serve the more business-type of artists. The artist has a business, we call them the entrepreneurial-like ones, where they're a little bit above sort of just figuring out where they're going and have an existing management team and lots of collaborators. So it wasn't necessarily a pivot as more of a refinement and focus on our core customer.[00:05:27] Milana Lewis: And the reason we started the music distribution business is because we needed to create our first client of that software. So we built a music distribution services company that was the first client of the software we were building 'cause back then in 2015, people didn't really understand what we were trying to do, right? They sort of thought about the world of royalty counting, the world of business management, and the world of distribution as being one that's completely different from each other. And what we were trying to do is sort of integrate all of these workflows and processes into one platform and build a tool that all of these people could use, with the end goal of an experience where, whether you're an artist, a songwriter, or producer, you can open up your app or log into your dashboard and you can see exactly how much money you're making off of the products that you helped create, which is your music, right? I hate calling music a product, but it's an incredibly valuable piece of content that has both cultural value, but also has enterprise value.[00:06:23] Milana Lewis: And we're obviously seeing that happening as it's being traded across so many different types of transactions, whether it's catalog buyers buying music rights or fans buying portions of earnings through NFTs of their favorite artist, like, related to their songs so that we know that there's a lot of value in the song.[00:06:41] Milana Lewis: And so how do we bring that to life? Well, one, trying to go and pitch that as an offering to the existing music labels and distributors was really hard. They were like, why do we need this? It's their problem, not ours. And creating the messaging around the experience for an artist is really compelling to the artists, but it didn't give enough of a business reason for anyone else to invest in these types of tools or developing them at the time.[00:07:03] Milana Lewis: So we thought, let's go build our own distributor. Let's set the precedent of what an incredible experience. It can be for an artist producer, songwriter, manager to know what they're getting paid when they're getting paid. So we did that, and that's what we've been focused on for the last, call it, five or six years of the business is really changing people's expectations around what it means to be artists-centric, clear, not transparent, but clear, and timely.[00:07:28] Milana Lewis: And I think that we've done a pretty tremendous job at that. We've witnessed other people emulating our features, right, which is now a thing that many distributors offer. We've seen major labels increase the cadence in which they're paying their artists, right? We've seen sort of more transparency happening across the board.[00:07:45] Milana Lewis: And yet it doesn't feel like it's enough. And so the reason we raised this round is really to take the tools that we've built for ourselves and our distribution class. And make them work for other labels and other distributors who want to be as clear with their artists, with their creators being producers, songwriters, et cetera, and not have to make the investment in building and maintaining those tools themselves.[00:08:08] Dan Runcie: And thinking about the importance of that, there are so many artists that are signed to major labels, we see them tweeting or share their thoughts often about how they don't necessarily know what's coming in, when is it coming in and how all of those things line up. So I do feel like for you all, there's a huge target audience there that, even though many people may assume that it's the independent artists that need to see this and major label artists would be fine, no, in many cases, it's likely the opposite. So there is that black box and the fact that a lot of the artists, especially the A-list ones, want it. That means that there's a need for it.[00:08:44] Milana Lewis: Yeah. Well, the thing that I'd love to sort of dive in on with you on what you just said is you're kind of creating a distinction between a major label artist and an independent artist as being two different types of artists. And I think when you look at the landscape today, it's not so black and white. Most artists are autonomous.[00:09:02] Milana Lewis: They choose which projects are with a major label and which projects are independent. And they want that autonomy. And if that's true, then this need becomes even moreso because now they're getting to a place where they're having to have that information come into them from so many different sources, distributors, platforms that just having one place to centralize it all is going to be really important for them to make good business decisions or just be in the know.[00:09:27] Dan Runcie: Right. So do you think that when artists are like, okay, I want to be independent, they're really saying they just want to have more control in general and that they just want to still be able to have the support of others, because I do think that that's kind of what it's getting at, right? It's not that the artists don't want to partner with others.[00:09:45] Dan Runcie: It's not that they're not willing to split things or that they want to wear every single hat themselves. They just want to be able to push things forward or be able to have a little bit more direction. And you had written a piece, it was a guest column in Billboard, that highlighted this, and you used Meek Mill as an example of this exact story.[00:10:05] Dan Runcie: Are there any other examples that come to mind that distinction? Especially because I do think that you hear so much about independence, but what it really is is people wanting to have a bit more push, even if there is someone else that they are dependent on. [00:10:21] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I think it means something different for every artist. And I think it just depends on their previous experiences, right? When we sit with our clients and we ask them like, why do you want to be independent? Why is that important for you? We hear one of these following reasons, right? Control is one thing you talked about. We've also witnessed people say they actually don't care about control.[00:10:39] Milana Lewis: They just want more money and have more of the economic participation in that projects, right? That's another one that we hear a lot. The third one is not necessarily control, but more like creative autonomy and flexibility there where they don't really want some, they don't need to be A&R, right? Like, they just want someone else to help execute the activities that they are putting together as part of the release plan, or they know exactly they're going to collaborate with, like, they don't need a lot of the A&R services they're getting elsewhere. So why, why give up the freedom and being able to move agile and quickly just by partnering up with someone else, right?[00:11:16] Milana Lewis: So I think it's a combination of those. They either want to keep more of the economic upside. They want the creative liberation and freedom, and control is a big piece of that as well. And then the last piece that I actually think is pretty important is visibility, right? There's a lot of artists who are independent because they don't trust the existing system.[00:11:34] Milana Lewis: They're okay with giving up control. They're okay with giving up more of the economic upside to someone else, but they just don't feel like they can trust the way that the industry will work. And so they want to be maybe in control or they want to be just having that visibility.[00:11:49] Dan Runcie: Right. That creative piece is a big piece because especially now we're hearing the wave of major label artists that don't want to be forced to put out TikToks to promote their music.[00:12:01] Milana Lewis: Halsey, last week. [00:12:02] Dan Runcie: Yup, and Florence from Florence + The Machine, too. [00:12:05] Milana Lewis: Totally. Yeah. I mean, those are absurd, but that's the reality is like the minute that you work with a major entity like that, there's other people who are going to have a say in various parts of the rollout, which was in sometimes that's a good thing. And sometimes it's not, it just, once you hand over the project, it's theirs, it's not yours anymore.[00:12:24] Milana Lewis: And I don't believe that that's always the case. Like, I think in my op-ed I tried to make it really clear. Like, I don't think labels are bad. I actually believe that if anything we've seen happened in the last six or seven years that we've existed, is there, how do I say this? Their desire to become more aligned with their artists that they're working with, they want to be more artist-friendly. Like I just had a call today with someone who's pretty senior up in the c-suite at Sony. And, like, they're going through so many big initiatives internally to be more artist-friendly, to pay their people faster, to be more transparent. I mean, they made an announcement today where they're forgiving a lot of unrecouped debts.[00:12:59] Milana Lewis: Like, we're seeing the behavior and the nature and the sentiment of these entities changing and evolving, which is an amazing thing. It's just, how does that trickle through the whole entire ecosystem? And while they might have the resources to build it, there's so many other smaller entities and labels that provide incredible artist development services that are not capable of investing in their own infrastructure to keep up.[00:13:23] Milana Lewis: And I think that's really the opportunity for us is creating a turnkey solution for these companies that are so invested in being great partners for their artists, but just don't have the capacity to build their own technology. [00:13:35] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And in your piece, too, you talked about how other industries have done a better job of this.[00:13:42] Dan Runcie: And I agree with you. I think music has come a long way, even someone like Olivia Rodrigo being able to get a more favorable deal. Like, she got early on as a sign of how far things have come along. But in terms of other industries, can you talk more about that and what are some of the other things that you've seen about how others have done it better?[00:14:00] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, you know, Square's a company and you look up to, and it's one that I referenced quite a bit, but what's been amazing about what they've been able to do is not only provide the tools, but also provide the education for a small business owner to become more financially literate about their business, right? [00:14:17] Milana Lewis: It's amazing how much quicker and better decision-making you can make when you're looking at the numbers consistently, and they're being surfaced to you where you don't have to like haul, haul through spreadsheets to figure out what's going on. And I still think that we're very much in the universe, in the music industry, where people are hauling through spreadsheets at every level to figure out what's going on. And that takes a lot of time. And I think what Square did so brilliantly is it took really complicated business decisions and surface data so that the person who's running the business can look at it and make more actionable decisions. Right. But it started with speeding up the ability for those people to accept payments in a digital form.[00:14:54] Milana Lewis: So when I first discovered Square is because I loved food trucks, and food trucks started off as a cash business. And then quickly it started seeing everyone being able to accept credit cards because they had that little Square attachment. And so now you're transacting all that data's being put into a system in real time.[00:15:09] Milana Lewis: So when you go to close your books or you look to see about your income at the end of the day, it's all in your Square app, you can see that happening there. You know, on a more sort of like enterprise level, it's incredible what Square and Brain or that Square, sorry, Stripe and Braintree have been able to allow startups to do, right? A lot of the whole on-demand economy, everything from Uber, and Lyft, and Airbnb could exist because of Stripe and Braintree, right? It took the headache away from a business that's trying to scale quickly and create an offering from having to figure out how you can accept credit cards, how you can transfer money between the customer and the person providing services and the platform.[00:15:47] Milana Lewis: And it did that in a way that super seamlessly. It didn't have to become something that every company had to figure out. It became something that companies could partner with them on and build everything else around it. And that enabled a lot of innovative things to exist. And music industry just hasn't had the benefit of that kind of infrastructure to enable a lot of the innovation that's happening right now.[00:16:07] Milana Lewis: Like, you know, we're spending quite a bit of time with a lot of the companies in the NFT space that are promising to share their royalties with their fans, but like they're struggling to actually make that happen because, in reality, those artists are making money from so many different sources in the real world.[00:16:21] Milana Lewis: How do you translate that income in a way that's accessible to transfer to someone else? And not just one other person, but thousands of other people? [00:16:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I do think that music has a long way to go on that front. And I'm curious what you think about other areas of the entertainment industry, and if you think it's any better there, I know that you were in UA before this, so you definitely, you know, saw a lot there. What are your thoughts? [00:16:45] Milana Lewis: No, like TV is the worst place. I think more than anything, especially because a lot of the streaming services and television don't pay a backend deal and they don't, they don't pay backend because they don't want to. Just for them, like that's a headache.[00:16:55] Milana Lewis: They don't want to have to figure out. . Film as well. Like, payments is a huge problem in our team and across the board. Music to me is just the easiest place to solve for it primarily because it shouldn't be as complicated as it is. It's a much more dynamic industry. Believe it or not.[00:17:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:17:11] Milana Lewis: And the partners, the platforms provide a tremendous amount of data to supplement the income that they're paying out. Whereas like, if you're trying to figure out how much your show is being streamed on Netflix, when they pay you whatever they owe you, like they're not giving you that reporting data.[00:17:25] Dan Runcie: Right. I was listening to a podcast. They were talking with Steven Soderbergh and he was talking about how, the only way that he knows that he's doing a good job, or if he's making something else, they literally are like, Hey. The movie did well, do you want to make another one? And, okay, if you're Steven Soderbergh that may work, but if you're most of the other people trying to do stuff, there's no security. There's no way to feel like you have any sense of autonomy at all with that. [00:17:51] Milana Lewis: Yeah, and honestly, like, the visibility problem isn't one that's just like limited to the artists' experience, right?[00:17:57] Milana Lewis: Like, the artist is at the center of it. It impacts the songwriters and producers and the publishers. It impacts the manager and their ability to support the artists that they're helping manage the careers of. And more importantly, it impacts the label. I mean, one of the things that I wrote about in the article that I did for billboard was just like, in reality, like I really laughed at myself thinking about being that marketing person or like that finance person at Meek Mill's label, having to figure out like, what do we owe him and how much have we spent on him?[00:18:25] Milana Lewis: Like, do they know, right? Like, how were they tracking the expenses? ' Cause every label we've talked to and done customer interviews with, they're using Google sheets. Maybe they're using QuickBooks. If they're super organized, they might have some sort of internal system for budgeting that they felt, but not everyone's touching that system, right? So there's just so much inefficiency and it, and to me, that's the part that I'm really excited about solving. Don't get me wrong. Like, I love the artist development side. We have a whole artist relations team that works on the distribution side of the business that cares a lot about the creative element of the work we're doing as well. But to me, all of that still needs really good infrastructure in order for those decisions to be more streamlined. And I think it's because everyone who comes to work into music wants to be as close to the artists or their creative process as possible 'cause that's super attractive.[00:19:15] Milana Lewis: It takes away from people who actually want to solve the, you know, the infrastructure problem that exists. One of the things we've noticed and is kind of like a funny, but also painful thing we deal with is like, we hire tons of people on the technical side, whether they're engineers or product people.[00:19:31] Milana Lewis: And I can't tell you how many of them have taken the job at Stem because they love music and want to be building solutions for artists only then to find out a couple months in that they actually don't want to be engineers. They want to be in the artist relation side. [00:19:45] Dan Runcie: Wow. [00:19:45] Milana Lewis: It happens all the time. And I thought that we were crazy. And then I talked to someone who was at Myspace back in the day, running engineering over there, and they had a similar problem. So people want to work in music because they want to be closer to the creative process of it, which is incredible. And it's so powerful to do that 'cause you're legitimately servicing people who create and shape culture, right? [00:20:06] Milana Lewis: But not enough people want to actually build the picks-and-shovels of the business. [00:20:10] Dan Runcie: Definitely. [00:20:10] Milana Lewis: And we're sure looking for people who want to.[00:20:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that point too reminds me of some of the thoughts I've heard for people that have looked at a lot of these newer solutions that have come up trying to solve particular problems, or helping people support artists, or just connecting fans to artists more directly.[00:20:28] Dan Runcie: And some of the critiques I've heard from people in the music industry is that these people, they may understand their business, or they may understand tech or investing, but they don't actually understand music beyond, you know, actually wanting to be in the culture and not like, as you said it, actually, you know, picking up the shovels and doing the work.[00:20:47] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that has grown even more. I mean, even more since the last time you and I did a podcast where you're just seeing more and more of that, and it's great to see the investive activity. It's great to see everything, but there's still a disconnect between the actual solutions that need to be solved.[00:21:04] Dan Runcie: That it's not always, you know, the person that finds the artist as the investment opportunity, being able to snap photos with them and post them on Instagram or whatever. [00:21:14] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I mean, that's why we have the distribution business, right? Like, we created an internal customer that we can continue to build and evolve for who feels a lot of the same pain points, encounters, the same challenges that other labels and other distributors have.[00:21:28] Milana Lewis: And so we have them right next to us as we're building and developing. The other thing too, is when we hire people on our product team, you know, we've had a couple of people that come from. The finance world and FinTech, but the majority of our product managers and product leaders and designers come from the music business, right?[00:21:44] Milana Lewis: Like, one of our senior product managers, this woman, Sarah is incredible. She spent years working at Virgin Capital as a product manager there, but not product manager on the technical side, more on the creative, like, marketing side. So she's done that job working really closely with artists and she understands those painpoints and was a manager herself.[00:22:03] Milana Lewis: And then actually made a career pivot and decided to get into like technical product development, worked at other tech companies and is now at Stem. So, like, I think one of the things that puts us in a unique competitive advantage really is the fact that we're able to find these like unicorn humans who have the skillsets that like grew up in music, understand the music business intimately well, but have also developed pretty deep technical skills and understand how you built in scale technology offerings. [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's the combo right there. I feel like everyone's after that, but when people have those people, they keep them close. They don't want to let them go. Understandably so, right?[00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Shifting gears a bit because you did talk about distribution and that, of course, being one of the big parts of your service, I want to talk about growth and just what that process is like for customer acquisition, because I do know that music distribution has become a even more crowded space.[00:22:54] Dan Runcie: There's a lot of competitors, a lot of people try to say, Hey, this is the place you can, you know, distribute through or rehab what you need to help you. How has it been navigating that? And what are some of the things that have been most effective for you from a acquisition perspective? [00:23:09] Milana Lewis: Yeah. So a couple of things, we built the distribution business for an entirely different purpose than many other people do.[00:23:14] Milana Lewis: So the things that many of the distributors care about, we don't. We don't care about market share. So you will never see us on the peeling of an artist. You will never see us taking claim over their releases. And the way that we think about our distribution service and offering is really intentional about how can we super serve clients.[00:23:30] Milana Lewis: So again, we don't take anyone. We've been incredibly intentional about the types of clients we want to serve. And it's because we really have a point of view for them. And we think that we can help position them in a way that other people can't. So growing and scaling the distribution business isn't our biggest priority.[00:23:46] Milana Lewis: Our biggest priority is going and scaling the tools that enable the distribution business to be successful. That doesn't mean that we're not going to continue to expand that team. I mean, a lot of the use of proceeds of this fundraising round is going towards hiring more people to service our clients on that.[00:24:01] Milana Lewis: And that's a direct response to the demand that we've seen in this space and just the fact that we legitimately have not had enough people to be able to take on the clients that come to us. So we've had to be a lot more intentional and turned down a lot more business than we can take on. So we want to be able to meet the market and, you know, but do it in a way where we're so conscious of our capacity, because the reason we started the distribution business is because we saw this, like, gap in the market where so many other distributors are going after market share and growth, that a lot of artists were just lost in the shuffle.[00:24:30] Milana Lewis: They were lost in the volume and our distribution offering is a direct response to that. And we're going to keep it boutique in that way, because we think that there needs to be a place for artists to get the attention they deserve at a price that's the right value exchange for the services they're getting.[00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I hear that. I mean, and I think for you all specifically, having the distribution service be either not necessarily a testing ground, but just having a place to be like, Hey, this is serving the other tools and services that we have. I guess there's a few other models like that that we see.[00:25:03] Dan Runcie: Like, of course I think that UnitedMasters has, you know, their version to some extent where it does serve what they do on the ad side. And I think some of the others do, but I think that the tough thing is, if you're not either building the business in some type of way, you have some other type of thing that is one of the main value adds that you offer.[00:25:22] Dan Runcie: It's a commodity and just being able to differentiate yourselves in that perspective. And I feel like that's what, at least it's been not necessarily missing, because I do think it's a very real challenge, but it's a long tail. It's a long tail for a reason. But I do think that the companies, like yours, I mean, you obviously made the switch a few years ago to focus more on the select artists that were fitting that profile.[00:25:45] Dan Runcie: That ultimately I think is where the most successful companies can be. Otherwise you're trying to just jab anyone you can. And I mean, as you know, that could be a very costly game. [00:25:55] Milana Lewis: Yeah. And quite frankly, the commodification of distribution really pisses me off because it's not a business that's easily that, like, it shouldn't be a race to the bottom on fees.[00:26:05] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction. And people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services and then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store.[00:26:21] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized, but that also makes it challenging because a lot of it is relationship driven.[00:26:36] Milana Lewis: It's hard to scale because you have to be able to be attentive and give the right focus to the clients that have a point of view. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of confusion from sort of the market around, like, the difference between a distributor and a delivery mechanism. And I just want those to be clarified because yes, delivery is commoditized. Distribution should not be.[00:26:57] Dan Runcie: That's a fair distinction. That's a fair distinction. So when new artists are either considering you or they're considering others, or you do want to bring them on board, what's your pitch? What is the big thing that you and the artist relations team say to bring them on and make them feel like this is a place where their career can level up?[00:27:16] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I wish I had Kristin on here with me 'cause she does the pitch so much better than I do. And she's the president of that side of the business. So she spends the most time thinking about it and kind of consistently refining the offering there. But the unique thing is is that we don't actually start pitching unless we understand what that client is looking for.[00:27:32] Milana Lewis: Because again, like we have the ability to shape our value proposition to our clients, depending on what their needs are. So some clients come to us and they say, we just want someone that's going to pick up the phone. We need them. We want you out of our way, and we want money, and we want that money as cheap as possible, and that's it. And it's like, great. We're going to give you the tools so you can handle it yourself. You'll have a dedicated account manager that will get on the phone with you whenever you need them to, you can text them. You don't have, like, a support line you call, you have that human being's phone number. And they're very responsive because they're not servicing hundreds of artists at a time.[00:28:04] Milana Lewis: And we're going to show you the options that we can give you as an advance, but you're going to control the terms. So if you want the cheaper fee, take less money up front and take in tranches. You can take the same exact of my money, but instead of withdrawing, call it a million dollars at once, take it out in tranches of a hundred thousand, you need to spend a million dollars next week, right?[00:28:21] Milana Lewis: Like if you're not, don't do that. And we're going to pay you every single month and we're going to pay all the people you want us to pay on your behalf so that you can stay focused on the things you want to focus on, right? That sort of like the tried and true, like keep things, easy pitch. Those are the most exciting clients to work with, but there's enough labels that feel that way.[00:28:39] Milana Lewis: And every so often they maybe want to get advice and strategy from us and that's great. But for most clients, they come to us because they want a real thought partner, right? I think one of the reasons why a lot more artists are not independent, quite frankly, is because them and their management team don't want to take on all the work on their own, right? I think people have, like, the criticism of, like, they always want someone else to blame. Like, they want to be able to blame the label. That is a direct statement and quote that our mutual friend says a lot. But you know, what they really want is someone that's going to understand the narrative of the artist and the positioning and advocate on their behalf to the DSPs.[00:29:15] Milana Lewis: And our pitch for them is that we're not delivering, again, hundreds of songs a week or a month or pitches for that reason. When we deliver something, the DSPs pay attention to it because we're so intentional and curated. So your pitch is going to stand out. It's going to be delivered. People are going to hear it. We can't guarantee you're going to get placement, but we're going to go out of our way to make sure that the positioning is there for your client.[00:29:35] Milana Lewis: So we've done a lot of unique things, too, with our clients to build those relationships with the editors. Everything from sending curated boxes to renting suites, suites at big sports games and inviting people out to build that relationship personally with the artists. Like, we try to be a lot more hands-on and experiential than I think many other distributors are with their clients.[00:29:57] Milana Lewis: So we take that, like, indie label approach to supporting the artist, but we don't overpromise and say, Hey, we have a big radio team. Hey, we have a whole in-house digital marketing team. Like, all of that stuff, we're very clear that we're going to outsource that, but you're going to be in control of how that money is being spent and you're going to be in control of picking the right partners.[00:30:15] Milana Lewis: So we're really more dot connectors and strategists, and we're just upfront about what we do, what we don't do. And I think a lot of people find that refreshing and that builds trust and people like that. [00:30:25] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I know a lot of this has been focused more on the streaming side because that is where so many of these playlists pitching and that type of conversation happens.[00:30:34] Dan Runcie: But do you get a lot of interests from artists who are focused on what support you may be able to provide if you all do on vinyl or some of the other non-streaming music revenues? Just because of how much... [00:30:47] Milana Lewis: No, we have vendors that we can partner with for vinyl distribution and physical. It's not a core competency of ours, and it's not one that we want to handle either.[00:30:55] Milana Lewis: So we're honest, we're just like, we don't do that, but here's why people who do, and we've worked with them, we've had great experiences and we'll help you pick the right one because, if you're only looking to print this number of units, they're probably not the best partner this person is. If you're in this, like, there's so many considerations. We have a whole strategy team that we've built out where this is their full-time job is getting to know the landscape of all of these service providers and vendors, vetting them out, understanding what they're good at, so that when clients come to us, we can make the right recommendations. [00:31:21] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And does the same thing exist as well for artists that may be reaching out to you, whether they want NFTs or they want to do something Web 3.0 related?[00:31:29] Milana Lewis: Everything. Yeah. So we have a whole digital strategy team as well, where their job is getting to know all of the digital platforms and tools and new companies emerging that if anyone wants to partner with Snapchat in an interesting way or Peloton or Royal or Mint Songs, like whoever that could be, whether it's even like Discord and other platforms, like they're an expert and they can talk, they can be a good conduit but also just educate our clients on that as well.[00:31:55] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like a lot of their jobs who is likely just sifting through the noise and what actually is worthwhile and what isn't. How do you feel about that?[00:32:03] Milana Lewis: That was my job. I mean, that was my job at UTA, right? My job was getting to know every single technology company that could possibly partner with any of the agency's clients. Started with me as a person that I grew into a team of like, I don't know, like 30 or 40 people today that do that. There's a lot of land to cover there. [00:32:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's, every new day there's something else. And I do think that in general, it makes, at least from my perspective, as you know, more from the strategy perspective, like, having the focus is there. And I know everyone is trying to incorporate something into their web, something in Web 3.0, especially if they're trying to, like, raise money and stuff.[00:32:37] Dan Runcie: But I feel like after a while, like that stuff gets old, not old in a way that obviously that is the future, but old into like, okay, you can't just put lipstick on a pig, you actually needed to have something. So yeah. [00:32:49] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, for us, the number one question we ask is why. Why, like, why do you want to do this? Because that'll determine, it's like, if you don't know why and you want to do something because you want to jump on it, you want to understand it. Then we realize that you're still in discovery mode, right? You're still trying to figure out why you want to do it so we can change the way that we approach it with you and take you more on an educational journey versus taking that as directive.[00:33:10] Milana Lewis: And I think it just like being really, again, like, intentional with your client. And you can't do that across thousands and thousands of them, you have to be selective because that's the level of servicing that those people require. [00:33:23] Dan Runcie: How often do you feel like you get a good answer when you ask why? [00:33:26] Milana Lewis: You know, it's a really great question, is that I'm not present in a lot of those conversations. So I'd love to have someone else answer that for you. [00:33:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I got to imagine that at the level of artists you're talking to anyway, there likely is some of that built in to begin with. But every artist is in discovery mode to some extent, right? So I get that. Yeah. But yeah, this was good.[00:33:47] Dan Runcie: It was great to recap and just hear how things are going and get a pretty good idea of where things are heading in the future. But what are some upcoming milestones or announcements? What are some things that you can share that we should keep our eyes out for? [00:34:01] Milana Lewis: Oh, that's a good question. When is this podcast gonna be posted, we think?[00:34:05] Dan Runcie: End of June.[00:34:06] Milana Lewis: Cool. Okay. So you'll be hearing about some of the first few labels we're partnering with to power their dashboards and payouts because we're actively developing that right now, quietly with a couple of big players. So we're excited to announce that. Some are independent. Some are part of the major label ecosystem.[00:34:23] Milana Lewis: So pretty excited to get people's reactions on that. The advance is business. The scale product is growing pretty tremendously. So we're going to make some exciting announcements about how we're positioning that moving forward. And then just continuing to keep our heads down and building an expanded team.[00:34:40] Milana Lewis: There's a lot of new, exciting people that have joined us that we haven't talked about yet, but we will soon. [00:34:44] Dan Runcie: Nice, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, Milana, thanks for coming on. This was great. [00:34:49] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me. [00:34:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And for the people following. They'll know to find you and keep up with everything, but keep up the great work. It's great having you on. [00:34:57] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me again. And thanks all for listening who made it this far. [00:35:01] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group. Chat, posted in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word.[00:35:14] Dan Runcie: continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use apple podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating. And we've reviewed tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you. In advance. Talk to you next week.

Bay area artist Rexx Life Raj (real name Faraji Omar Wrightz) is in album mode with “Blue Hour” set to drop soon. The new album is his most personal yet. It was largely recorded after his mother passed away and before his father did too — which was within a three-month span of each other during 2021. The personal grief of both losses influenced the sounds of the new music. While recording this music was one way Raj coped with his grief, he also wants the album to do the same for others going through similar pains in their own lives. The deeper purpose behind Blue Hour is to create a safe space to talk about grief, especially amongst black men, where the topic of mental health can fly under the radar. Raj wants Blue Hour to honor his parents, who instilled in him an entrepreneurial spirit from an early age. The album will be his fifth — all released independently. A tour will follow later this year too. For a closer look at Raj’s process behind his art, listen to our full interview. Here’s everything we covered:[3:03] Bay Area’s Influence On Raj’s Music[4:51] Rexx’s Entrepreneurship Spirit Stems From Parents[7:07] Did Rex Ever Consider Taking A Record Label Deal?[8:13] The TikTok Effect On Artists (Pros & Cons)[11:25] Content Strategy For Raj’s Newest Album [14:25] Why Grief Is Such A Big Theme In Rex’s Music[17:40] How Raj Is Coping With The Loss Of His Parents[24:10] Personal Goals For The Upcoming Album[25:53] Post-Album Tour Plans[30:40] How Tapped In Is Raj To Local Tech Scene?[32:42] E-40’s Entrepreneurship Skills[36:37] What Is Raj Most Excited About?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Rexx Life Raj, @rexxliferaj This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz  Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Rexx Life Raj: When it comes to numbers, like, you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet.[00:00:15] Rexx Life Raj: But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look into followers, but then I'll look at how many comments, like, I'll be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments you got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms? 'Cause that's how you can really tell[00:00:39] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.[00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Rexx Life Raj. He's a Bay Area artist known for the Father Figure trilogy and his upcoming album, The Blue Hour. In this episode, Raj and I talked a lot about the inspiration for this album and what brought him up to this point? Raj, unfortunately, lost both of his parents in the past year so one of the big focuses for this album was grief.[00:01:21] Dan Runcie: What are the things that Raj had done to process that, him being able to navigate that and some of the coping things that he had done over the year and how that prepared him to be in the mode to create this album. So we talked about the process for that. And we also talked about some of the things he's done to market and push the album.[00:01:38] Dan Runcie: He has a blog, he has a trailer, and being able to truly document the process. So we talk about some of that balance that a lot of artists have between the marketing they need to do in the actual product that they need to put out and share with their fans. We talked about that and we also talked about how that relates to TikTok.[00:01:57] Dan Runcie: TikTok has been one of the growing debates with a lot of artists in terms of how they put their content out there and record labels wanting to push them to do things, but Raj is in a different position. He isn't signed to a record label. He is independent. He still does distribution through EMPIRE. So we talked about that decision as well and how he looks at some of the broader trends, whether it's TikTok or, thinking more broadly, he does have a tour coming up as well to promote the album.[00:02:24] Dan Runcie: So we talked a little bit about what it's like doing festivals versus doing tours yourself. And this was a really good episode. I think a lot of the independent artists will appreciate this. A lot of the independent creators will appreciate this as well because a lot of you are taking a more bootstrapped approach.[00:02:42] Dan Runcie: You know, it's going to be a longer game, but a lot of the decisions you make need to line up with this strategy and Raj to someone that's doing it on a successful level. So I hope you enjoy this chat. Here's my conversation with Rex life, Raj. All right, today we got the one and only Bay Area native Rexx Life Raj here. How are you doing, man? [00:03:00] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. I can't complain. How are you doing?[00:03:03] Dan Runcie: I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited for this. And it's good to talk to the artists that are from here, and especially you because you have always had the Bay Area such a clear and prominent focus in your music and your music videos. And I really feel like it's a character in your art in a lot of ways. Can you talk a little bit about the influence Bay Area has and how it shapes what you put out? [00:03:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think that the Bay Area is just like such an influential place and you see it in terms of just the way, like our lingo spreads, that the sound of the music spreads, you know, the dancing that comes from here, everything is so like cultural and impactful that I feel like if you're from here, it just comes out of you without even trying. Because you know, people always tell me,[00:03:45] Rexx Life Raj: like, they get that from me and I don't even be trying. It's just like who I am. So I think the Bay Area is tight 'cause it's like a blend of so many different people, but at the cooler of the culture, everybody HiFi for real, you know what I'm saying? And that's really what it is, you know. So, yeah, I love the Bay Area, man. [00:04:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's like not everyone needs to do HiFi straight up music, but I feel like you kind of find your own spin on that, right? Like, you can see the origins, but you took it in your own direction. [00:04:10] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it was like, I think that's what's dope about art is that like, to me, art is people living in this life and taking these experiences and it goes through your filter and it comes out how it comes out. You know what I'm saying? So I took an artist of life around me and this is how it comes out. But I think you could still feel like the Bay Area in it just 'cause, you know, this is who I am and where I'm from. [00:04:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And I think, too, looking at your background, I know that your father was a big influence. Not just in your music, but also how you approach your career as someone that owned businesses and I feel like I see a similar thread with how you've went about the business side of music, especially as an independent artist.[00:04:51] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for sure. Like, like you said, my dad was an entrepreneur since I was born. I think he had, like, he worked at Coca-Cola up until I think a couple of years before I was born. And then after that, it was pure, like, entrepreneurship. He got tired of working for people. He wanted to set his own schedule and kind of just be in control of his own destiny.[00:05:09] Rexx Life Raj: So that's all, I really know, like my mom worked at Cal up until I was like three or four, but then she started fully working with my dad in the business. So it was kind of like where I come from. I don't even really know what it feels like to work a job. Like, I worked for a summer job while I was in college, but everything I know is kind of like building it from the ground up, building it from scratch and, you know, nurturing it and watching it grow.[00:05:32] Rexx Life Raj: And it's kind of what I do in every avenue in like in music, in the brands I have outside of music and just kind of all I know. [00:05:38] Dan Runcie: Right. And I know with that path that takes a lot of patience and likely a lot more patience than you're seeing from some of your peers that may be doing other things, whether it's with major labels or others.[00:05:48] Dan Runcie: And I can speak to that too, from running a bootstrap business and just seeing how it is with others that are going a different path. But how has that been from your perspective? Just balancing obviously the patience, but knowing the long-term outcome that's on the other side.[00:06:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think it's just something that's kind of ingrained in me from, you know, seeing my parents 'cause they had that business for like 30 years and with was so many ebbs and flows in the business, but just knowing, like, it's something sustainable that's going to carry you for the rest of your life. It puts a different perspective on it. And also it's like, I come from a football background and I was the o lineman.[00:06:26] Rexx Life Raj: I'm used to not getting, like, no shine and no glory and just putting in the work, you know what I'm saying? It's kind of what I come from. So I feel like it's like that with music and for me, and you could probably relate when you doing something like this, it don't feel like work. You know, you're just having fun.[00:06:41] Rexx Life Raj: So I'm not looking at it like, oh, this is hard. This is tedious. It's like, nah, you're, you're building something. It's a blessing, bro. I get to build something from scratch that people resonate with, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, people are finding value and meaning in it. So it becomes like, even more purposeful for me. So I was just like, bro, I'm blessed, bro. I can't complain about too much. [00:07:00] Dan Runcie: Was there ever a point that you did consider doing a more traditional record label deal? [00:07:07] Rexx Life Raj: Not really. I mean, we, I want to say a few years ago we took a few meetings with some bigger record labels, but I think my situation with EMPIRE, for me personally, is just, you know, it's ideal, you know? 'Cause I can move out when I want to move. I can kind of do what I want to do. There's no restrictions on me. You know, you hear stories about the majors. You're on a schedule, or you're shelved, or you can put out something. People have been waiting for, like, a year to put out music and, you know, it's such a big system that people get lost in it, you know what I'm saying? You're just banking on having somebody in a building that's rocking with you and you hear stories about those people leaving and now you just kind of, you know, up in the air. So it's like, you hear a lot of weird stories, but for me, the situation I'm in is just, it's solid. I can't, I can't speak on what happens down the road or if it makes sense, maybe it don't makes sense then, but for right now, it's like, what I have is pretty tight.[00:08:00] Dan Runcie: I hear you on the weird stories. The one I keep hearing right now is people talking about the labels, trying to make them put out TikToks, right? Label wants them to put out a TikTok before they released the track, before they released the album. What do you think about that? [00:08:13] Rexx Life Raj: It's interesting, but I think about that a lot. It really makes me sad, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I really think about, like, but it makes me sad cause it's, like, if you're an artist and you don't want to do that, and that's kind of, like, 'cause some people have that persona and personality where it plays into that, you know, they're good at the internet.[00:08:30] Rexx Life Raj: Some artists are really good at the internet, but I feel bad for the artists who just want to make music. And now they feel like they have to do Tiktok and be less organic and it don't feel right. Like, to me, that's not tight, but at the same time, it's a platform that's enabling so many up-and-coming creators because the algorithm over there is crazy.[00:08:49] Rexx Life Raj: Like, I remember when I first got on TikTok, I had, like, 50, 70 followers who just followed me over to TikTok, but I will post things and they will go, like, fake viral, like 30,000 views, 40,000 when I only have 50 followers. So I'm like, it's a game that you have to play. Like, you can go over there and bullshit and fake go viral by accident, you know what I'm saying? But it's kinda like, it's kind of contingent upon the artists, but I see, you know, it needs encouragement on both sides., [00:09:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think we're also still just so early that we're likely going to see more types of content that can be put out when someone puts out a TikTok, right? Because I feel like when it started, it was people doing these dances that are just in this like vertical screen.[00:09:32] Dan Runcie: But, all right. They've expanded the timeframe. Like, it doesn't have to look like that. It reminds me of, like, when MTV first came out, you started to hear a little bit of that, right? Everyone thought it was just going to make people to these, like, phonies that just did these, like, Milli Vanilli dances and stuff like that, but then it, then it evolved. So I feel like that could still happen, right? Just 'cause like you said, the reach is so massive.[00:09:55] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. No, I think it's happening right now because I feel like from what I've learned in my experience is that fans, like, people who are fans of you are, who are becoming fans of you actually want to know you. And I feel like, you know, with TikTok, it's a place where you could be, you could be dancing and viral and all that, but you can really be personal and show people behind the scenes, like, I look like a LaRussell out of Vallejo. And he's really good at, like, at the internet period, but like, he's not really TikToking like playing a game, he's just getting on there and rapping, you know what I'm saying?[00:10:28] Rexx Life Raj: And people are receptive to that 'cause there's a whole demographic who just want to hear people rap. So I think it's really about finding like a little niche, something that's comfortable for you, and understanding that, like, you're not making content for everybody in the world. You're making content for your people and finding your people. And like I said, knowing what's comfortable with you and you can win for sure. [00:10:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I agree with that, and that's a good example of that, right? Like, I was just reading an article, I was talking about, yeah, the platform's maturing and it's going to be more niches and the more niches, yeah, the less people that are going to want to see these standard TikTok dances, more people are going to want to see bars.[00:11:04] Dan Runcie: They're going to want to see people wrap. So that's a good point there. Shifting gears though, I want to talk a little bit more about your album, The Blue Hour and what you have coming up. You have the trailer for it. You got the vlog. I really like how you've built up and had the rollout for it. Can you talk to me about the strategy or the plan for how you want it to execute that all?[00:11:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for me at this point, bro, cause I just understand like, everything is about content and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about with TikTok. Content is king, you know what I'm saying? And for me it's just, I want it to have as much content as possible. So I had the cameraman, you know, my boy filming all these sessions. And then, anytime I'll have a show, I have somebody film it or anytime I have ideas, it's, like, let's try to do this idea, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause the more content you have the better. And so it's just literally when I went into it, it's just like, bro, follow me with the camera and just get everything.[00:11:59] Rexx Life Raj: Then it'll be shit in here that we could just slowly roll out and turn into a vlog. And then turn it into a documentary, like I'm actually shooting a real documentary right now that we're starting to drop trailers for, but it's just like, anytime there's a camera, turn it on, you know? 'Cause you could choose whether to put it on or put it out, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not like you have to put it out, but people want to see the process, like they want to hear the music, of course, but people want to see the process. They want to see how you create. They want to see the thinking behind it. They want to see who you're collaborating with.[00:12:29] Rexx Life Raj: It just makes that connection to your fans I think that much stronger. So it's like when me, I'm just trying to involve them in as much of the process and my thinking as possible to really, you know, make them connect as much as possible. [00:12:41] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Do you ever feel any tension with that approach? Because I know I've heard from other artists where they feel like when the cameras are out, they need to do this stuff. It makes them feel like they're more of a marketer than they are an artist. And obviously, it's a combination of both. But how was that for you? Especially as, you know, you want to be in album mode, you know, you obviously have a concept that you want to be able to do purely from an artistic person.[00:13:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, I don't really have that problem, right? And it might be, 'cause I did have the camera on me at this point for a while. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've always had people following me with cameras, but also it's like, I think, you know, if you have a good videographer, they're not all in your face with the camera, like they might ask you questions every now and then.[00:13:20] Rexx Life Raj: But the people I work with, they're planning the cut. You know what I'm saying? It's like, they're almost not even in the room. To me, that's the best kind of cameraman. It's just like behind the speaker or you're not even paying attention to him. And he's kind of shooting you while you were in the booth 'cause it could be like a distraction. I think as soon as the camera comes on and you're very conscious of it, it changes everybody. Like, this conversation with us will be different if we weren't on camera, it'd probably be more candid. But since we know people are watching, like you kind of changed.[00:13:47] Rexx Life Raj: So like, I think it's really just, like, having a good cameraman is just like, they're not really in the room. And then maybe after, you know, luckily I've had the camera videographers who are like, afterwards, they'll contextualize it. Like, they'll ask me a question or, like, let's elaborate on this afterwards. But during the process, it's really kind of like playing the clip and just recording.[00:14:07] Dan Runcie: Right, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And I think for you as well, thinking about this album, specifically, a lot of the focus you're talking about grief, and you want to be able to not just process your own, but helping other people with it. Why was that an important focus for you with this album?[00:14:25] Rexx Life Raj: For me, because I think my music is very much grounded in reality, in my real life. And I feel like for me, like this past year, year and a half was the most insane, impactful year I've personally ever had in my life. And I feel like there's no way that it wouldn't come out of me, you know what I'm saying? It's just, so much happened and there was so much emotion and everything built up in me and it came out in the music. And for me, it was almost like, you know, you went through all this shit and you felt all these feelings. There has to be a way that you can transmute this into something that can help people going through the same thing.[00:15:04] Rexx Life Raj: And for me, music has always been like my favorite songs aren't really the turn-up songs. They're the songs that cut all the way, you know, I'm going through some shit or I need to cry or I'm in my feelings or something. And it's like knowing that music has that capacity and knowing that it could be that like music has helped me in times where I was going through whatever I was going through and knowing that I have the potential to do that.[00:15:27] Rexx Life Raj: To me, it feels only right to put that into my music, because like I said, I've done songs where like Moxie Jova, Shit N' Floss where people turn up and it's crazy when I perform it. But then I do songs like Time where it hits people on almost like a spiritual level, not even almost, it is a spiritual level in that feeling.[00:15:46] Rexx Life Raj: That's how I know this is my purpose 'cause I'm so attached to that feeling that people get where they're just like turning up and having fun. So it's like, I want it to create a space for people to be able to talk about grief, to be able to talk about it, especially for black men, because the experience is so much, but how we talk about it, like, with the homies, to me, it's kind of like crazy. Either we talk about it, very surface level, or we don't talk about it. And we hold these feelings in and we harbor it. And that's why for me, like, going back to everything outside of the music, the music is one thing, but my rollout has been to be focused on like, letting people know, like, yo it's okay to express these feelings if necessary, to talk about these things, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of been my whole thing with this, with this album.[00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like this is generally gotten better over time where we are seeing more artists like yourself and others sharing their thoughts and being vulnerable. And I think we've seen it just more broadly in culture where people are becoming much more comfortable. And there is less of a stigma, especially with black men around checking out for your own mental health, being able to get awareness with things. But I still feel like there's plenty of room to grow with that. So you, of course, you know, not just using yourself as an example, but being able to communicate that through music is going to help a lot of people. I know you mentioned that the past year and a half has been tough and I'm sure that a lot of people could likely relate to that for their own respective reasons. So there's a timeliness here as well. And there are so many things happening that I feel like we've almost become immune to whether it's things happening our own life or things happening in society where no, it's helpful to pause because that doesn't happen as often as it should. And things just keep going and going. [00:17:40] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man. I mean, for me too, it's like for people who don't know, just to kind of like give you a synopsis of what's going on. I lost both of my parents last year. I lost my mom in May, and then my dad in August and the majority of the album wasn't really right before my dad passed. So it is sort of three months right after my mom passed. And it's crazy because I remember something that she said to me that stuck with me, it's like, when she got diagnosed with cancer, we had a conversation and one of the things she said was no matter what happens to me, I know you'll, you'll do something good, like whether it be music or whether it be, you know, just you talking about it or whatever. She's like, I know something good comes from this. And I feel like one of the biggest things for me when it comes to grief is finding ways to honor the people you lost, right? So for me, it's like, the album honors her. Me talking about, you know, when I'm going through honors her and that's one of the biggest things for me, that's why I'm so open about it because it's like, yo, it's one thing to go to the cemetery or, you know, wherever your place is where you honor the people you lose.[00:18:50] Rexx Life Raj: But to me, like, I want to take action in some way to honor my mom, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of what all there is to me. [00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, I could only imagine how you felt. It's so sad just losing both of them in such a short amount of time and obviously, this album has been a point of catharsis for you.[00:19:08] Dan Runcie: I'm sure. Just the process. And like you mentioned a few of the things you've done as well, but what are some of the other ways that you've been able to the best that you can cope and manage your own stress and grief with the losses and any and everything else in your life. [00:19:22] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man, music has really been a main thing cause it was really therapeutic for me, but I think being around friends and family, for me, and being able to talk about these things and cry when I need to in front of the homies and just get things out is important.[00:19:35] Rexx Life Raj: I try to stay on top of like meditating. Like, I try to meditate two or three times a week, you know, I pray a lot, you know, anything that I could get these feelings out of me. One of the biggest things for me, it sounds funny, but it's the Peleton, you know what I'm saying? For me personally, when I'm going through anything, working out is such a stress reliever, you know what I'm saying?[00:19:55] Rexx Life Raj: So I had got a Peloton right when my mom got sick and it was something that like any time I built up extra energy or anxiety in my body, I'll just go hop on the Peleton. And outside of me losing a little bit of weight, it just helped me mentally, you know, just working out. I'm really thankful for the Peloton, shout out to all the instructors and stuff on there.[00:20:15] Rexx Life Raj: That's really tight, but yeah, just find a way to get it out of me. Like, I do all the little stuff. Like I journal a lot, you know what I'm saying? Anything that could get my thoughts out and just kind of figure out what's going on. 'Cause I feel like people have these things in their head, but when you write it down and you can reread it and really see what's going on in your mind, you can have better understanding of what you're going through.[00:20:34] Rexx Life Raj: So I did this thing called morning pages, which at one point I was waking up every morning. So what you do is you wake up every morning and you just journal for like two or three pages, whatever comes to your mind, you know what I'm saying? Like, no matter what it could be, because when you first wake up, it would be shit like I'm tired.[00:20:49] Rexx Life Raj: And I really don't feel like writing this. I didn't get a good night's sleep, but the more you write, the more real feelings and thoughts come out. And what happens is if you do it for a long enough period of time, you start to see consistencies and you're thinking in your feelings, right? So you might, for somebody who might be, you know, in a relationship, they keep having these problems in their relationship, and they noticed that they write about it every day, you know, or that you're having problems with your dad or your mom or something that keeps coming up. And what it allows you to do is see it like, yo, this thing keeps happening and then you have the choice to take action, because if it keeps happening and you don't take action, nothing's going to change.[00:21:27] Rexx Life Raj: But by you writing it every day, like you've seen it seven days, seven days, it forces you to take action and you can clearly see what's going on in your life. So I really believe in that, I read that in a book called The Artist's Way. I highly recommend like that for any artists or anybody just in the creative realm for sure.[00:21:44] Dan Runcie: That makes a lot of sense. And I've heard similar with people doing voice memos as well. You know, just being able to have that steady, consistent thing that you're putting out there because, yeah, over time it is going to be a reflection of where things are and just that habit of it's one thing to journal, but it's actually having a common practice with it.[00:22:03] Dan Runcie: I'm sure that's been huge. And I could imagine that even some of that has been a helpful reflection for you as you were putting this album together as well. [00:22:11] Rexx Life Raj: For sure. It's crazy 'cause when I was going through, you know, basically being a caregiver for my parents, cause I was taking care of both of them. I didn't really have time to do music because I was so consumed and taking my mom to chemo or radiation.[00:22:26] Rexx Life Raj: And then my dad, he was already sick. So I'll have to take him to dialysis and the Kaiser and I was, you know, cooking the meals and staying at the house, make sure everything is right. So I really was so overwhelmed with life that I didn't even have the capacity to do music, but what I always did was I have a, in my notes tab, I have a note just called life notes.[00:22:48] Rexx Life Raj: So anytime something would happen, like, I'll have feelings, a lot of different feelings and emotions. I would just jot it down in the notes. So in my phone, I literally had, bro, just so many life notes because there's music in everything that songs and the conversations you have with people are songs. Like, these feelings that you feel, these experiences that you have can now be turned into music.[00:23:10] Rexx Life Raj: So even when I couldn't necessarily make music, I was just taking notes. So when it became, like, after my mom passed and I started going back to the studio. Like, I had just so much to draw from, you know what I'm saying? So it's not like I had to sit and even think about now, what am I going to write about? What am I going to do?[00:23:29] Rexx Life Raj: It's all in the notes. So it's like the album was written before it was written and it had to piece it together. [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense, right? It's like documenting the process, like, like anything. And I do think that just being able to have that likely helped the product of it, too. So, and I know that that was coming out soon. You're definitely excited about where things are heading.[00:23:49] Dan Runcie: Do you have any particular milestones or goals that you have that you're trying to hit with this album? I know that you're not signed to a major record label, so some of those same types of things may not exist, but a lot of it may be a bit more on the personal side for what you have. Is there anything that you have that you're shooting for, that you have as a particular milestone?[00:24:10] Rexx Life Raj: Not necessarily numbers-wise 'cause I feel like as soon as I do that, I can set myself up to not be happy if I don't hit those things. So I don't really be tripping off numbers. Like my thing, when it comes to numbers is as long as we're on the up and it's better than what we've been doing, then we're doing something right.[00:24:26] Rexx Life Raj: But my whole goal and intention with this album was to help people who are going through what I was going through. Like, that's all I was thinking about. And I see it, you know, in the songs that I've released, my DMs be crazy with people who are either, you know, it's a lot of people in my DMs whose parents are ill right now.[00:24:44] Rexx Life Raj: So they resonate with the music. It's even more people in my DMs who are going through grief. And the music is helping them process in any way. So to me, that's the win for me, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's the win is the music helping people navigate through life and shit. The numbers are just numbers and the numbers be fake a lot of times, like, you know, so I don't really be concerned about the numbers, you know what I'm saying?[00:25:05] Rexx Life Raj: But for me, it's just being intentional in what I put into the music and just hoping that it resonates with people. [00:25:11] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like it already is, like you said, if you're having the folks of the DMs hitting you up and responding to it, that's great. And I got to imagine that being able to potentially see that impact in person at some point would likely be an ideal thing that I'm sure people would connect with as well. Are there plans to tour, do live shows after the album's released? [00:25:33] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, we already got the tour locked in toward the end of the year. I've got a few festivals, actually have a festival on Sunday. I just did one in Sacramento. So we got a lot of little festivals and shows coming up but the actual tour is set for the end of the year so I'm super excited.[00:25:49] Dan Runcie: Nice. Do you prefer festival performances or do you prefer your own tour stops? [00:25:53] Rexx Life Raj: I prefer my own tour, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause what a festival, especially for artists at my level, you never really know how many people are there for you and it's tight because it's a bigger crowd so you can win new fans and festival experiences are always super fun, but like you alluded to earlier, just the connection that I've made with the people that I know I've made that connection with is different.[00:26:17] Rexx Life Raj: You know what I'm saying? It's, it's spiritual. That's the only word I can have for it, bro. 'Cause I've had shows where, you know, I'll perform a song and people cry, you know what I'm saying? It's like they came for that song, you know what I'm saying? That came out of my brain and for whatever reason, it resonated with them.[00:26:33] Rexx Life Raj: To me, that's just, you know, and to have people sing songs in unison. And it's just like a different type of connection when it's your own show, but festivals are tied to them. And I love festivals. [00:26:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like, especially for independent artists, a mix in general is what people do thrive in. And I feel like that generally makes sense, but especially for independent artists, your career is already built on the long game and touring is a much longer game than a lot of festivals, right? Festivals, their upfront cash should be great. It could be bigger than what you may get from an initial stop, but like you said, you don't know if they're necessarily there for you, but you could be reaching out to new fans versus at a tour, even if the total audience may not be what it may be in that festival crowd, all those people are there to see you and you build on that and you're going there with the next album. And the one after that, like, that's where that long game is that lines up with that independent mentality. [00:27:29] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man, and I'm happy you said that 'cause I be trying to preach that to, you know, any up and coming artist that asked me for advice. It's like, that's what I'm focused on. You know, the touring. That's what I look at. Like, even when, you know, everybody has a moment and niggas be laid on the internet and shit look cool. My first thought is like, can I sell tickets?[00:27:48] Rexx Life Raj: Are they selling merch? 'Cause in real life, that's, what's going to sustain you. Like, have you built maybe another business or brand outside of yourself? Because the internet shit is cool, but real life is what's going, what gets you paid in the long term. So, yeah, I'm happy you said that. [00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. I had this piece that had gotten some traction recently that was a breakdown on why your followers are not your fans and the followers, exactly, it's the internet shit that you're talking about, right? It just doesn't always line up. And we both know people that have millions, tens of millions of followers, but they can't sell when they actually go to show things and makes you question, okay, were all those true numbers, legit stream numbers and all those things? And you can't fake actually, to have actual bodies there, like watching you perform a concert. [00:28:38] Rexx Life Raj: It's the only thing you can't fake, man. That's what I'm saying. Like, the internet is really, but at the same time, like if you play the internet correctly, you can make money off the internet as well.[00:28:47] Rexx Life Raj: Like, you know, don't get it twisted, like there's money to be made on the internet. But as far as sustainability, like, I've only seen it this way, you know what I'm saying? And like you said, everything can be manipulated. And even when it comes to numbers, like you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet. But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look at the followers but then I'll look at how many comments, like I would be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments he got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms?[00:29:30] Rexx Life Raj: 'Cause that's how you can really tell. 'Cause it's been harder to, like, for instance, on Instagram, I think I got like 80,000 followers, right? But there's been artists who I've seen that had like 20,000 followers, 30,000 followers, even less, their engagement is way higher and they're selling way more tickets than me.[00:29:47] Rexx Life Raj: And I'm like, damn, dude. Like, that's it. Cause you damn near made all your followers believe to the point where we following you not only on here, but we following you in real life to the stage, you know? And that's crazy to me. So yes, it's an interesting game for sure. [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good example. I mean, you're seeing it that way because you see it the other way, too, people that, you know, you got tens of millions of followers and then less than a thousand people, like the last photo, what, like, no. [00:30:18] Rexx Life Raj: Something's not clicking. Something's ain't right. But, yeah, for sure.[00:30:22] Dan Runcie: So you're the Bay Area, and of course we know there's a lot of tech investments happening out here. And I know that you are interested in things outside of directly making music as well. What does that side of things look like for you? Have you got involved in the investing side, looking at different startups and companies?[00:30:40] Rexx Life Raj: I'm kind of tapping in 'cause I have friends who are really in that world. Like my girlfriend works for Facebook, so she's fully in it. One of my best friends, he works for Google, so he's fully in it. And then one of my good friends who I went to college with, Jason Robinson, he has a VR/AR software, it's called Playbook Five.[00:31:00] Rexx Life Raj: And so he actually just did a pitch in Menlo park, Denver last weekend, pitching to investors. It's lit, it's really tight. Like, you put on the Oculus or whatever, and it's for kids to learn, like, kids in high school and middle school who are trying to play any sport in college. It teaches you all these schemes and game plans and everything you can learn through a software, but what's he trying to do is make it accredited. So say, like, they're trying to go to Cal to play football and Cal runs a three, four scheme on defense for the players who aren't like four or five stars who are getting directly looked at by the school. They can look at Playbook Five and be like, oh, let's check this kid out.[00:31:37] Rexx Life Raj: He's fully accredited in our scheme. So they bring him in and he fully knows what's going on. And so like this, seeing the homies do stuff like that, you're automatically drawn into it because that shit is the future, you know what I'm saying? And then he's telling me like, like I said, how he's pitching and he's looking for investors. He's down in Austin 'cause he knows Bowman down there now and he's moving around. So I feel like this being out here, you get consolidated in that and you've learned shit on accident, you know what I'm saying? So I haven't actually invested in any companies, but I'm for sure, just like watching and learning the landscape as much as possible.[00:32:09] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. You get up with E-40 at all? I haven't linked up with E-40 in a while, but anytime I hit E-40, he pick up and he chat with me, Gmail, like, real cool dude. Man, like I love E-40 'cause any, like I said, anytime I hit him and ask him for tips and wisdom. He's always there for me, if I need them on a song, he always did. So shout out to E-40. [00:32:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 'Cause like, think about the investment thing, I mean, obviously both in Vallejo and...[00:32:34] Rexx Life Raj: He's the man. [00:32:35] Dan Runcie: He is the man. Anytime I see it, I'm like, I see his name everywhere. I'm almost surprised when I don't see him at certain deals now.[00:32:42] Rexx Life Raj: E-40, he's going to sell you anything. He sells sausages. He sells lumpia. He got E Cuarenta Tequila. He got burritos now, the hood burritos at the store, like, when you think about entrepreneurship and just real rap independence, like, E-40 is the pinnacle, bro. Like, he's giving niggas the blueprint for so long and he's been doing it. That's what I'm saying. Like, pure longevity, you know, he's like, who's been doing this independent shit for as long as he has and has been that great at it?[00:33:15] Rexx Life Raj: It's not too many people, you know what I'm saying? So shout out to E-40, man. He's been ahead of the game for a while. [00:33:20] Dan Runcie: And his products are good, too. I mean, we know that there's a lot of artists out there that have stuff that doesn't always click, but his Earl Stevens wine is award-winning, like, it has gotten a shout-out from all those like Napa and Sonoma County celebrations, whatever they call them.[00:33:36] Rexx Life Raj: And it's gonna get you faded. I didn't, boy, I, like, take some of that and be, oh, like, oh God, E-40 is crazy! What is it called? [00:33:46] Dan Runcie: I know what you're talking about.[00:33:48] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it ain't no joke, bro. You trying to get drunk, you gotta bring some of that. It's crazy. [00:33:54] Rexx Life Raj: Oh, man. That's wild. That's wild. But Raj, man, I'm excited for you. You got a lot to look forward to this year. Obviously, I know that a lot of it hasn't been the easiest, but when you're looking at the rest of this year, then also in 2023, what are you most excited about? What's getting you excited, looking forward to where things are heading and where you want to, where you want to take things? I'm just excited to drop the album and just see where it takes me, hit the road again, go to Europe, you know, do all the things that come with dropping the album, because I feel like for the last year and a half, I've really missed that.[00:34:27] Rexx Life Raj: So just like everything that comes up on our music, you know, like, I think the next phase of my career is like really focusing, focusing on other artists from the Bay who I think I have a lot of potential and kind of like giving them game and wisdom and putting them on. So I'm working with, you know, a bunch of different artists in the Bay and just kind of focusing on them and giving them a shot 'cause it's, I think it's a Renaissance happening in the Bay, you know, in the underground music scene that not too many people know about. I feel like it's really coming to light and you get to see how diverse the music scene in the Bay is 'cause I feel like for a while we were just known really for one thing, one sound. But it's so much dope shit happening in the Bay, you know what I'm saying? Like, from bills like ‎Elujay, to, there's this singer in Vallejo, she's really tight, named Tyler Lauren. She's really cool. My brother, The Dakota Wytefoxx. Michael Sneed who's doing all that shit. My boy, JAMMY, you got, you know, I think her username is thuymusic. She's doing a lot of jazz. It's like, it's so much going on in the Bay, you know, and I'm happy to that it's actually in the light that it deserves at this point.[00:35:30] Dan Runcie: I know, that's legit and thinking about all the activity, too, I'm sure you saw it as well. The Golden State Warriors started their own record label and I'm like, if there's any sign that there's something... [00:35:40] Rexx Life Raj: I did not know that.[00:35:41] Dan Runcie: Oh, you didn't hear this?[00:35:43] Rexx Life Raj: No, tell me about it. I did not know. They started a record label?[00:35:46] Dan Runcie: Okay. I'll send you the link to it after we're done, but yeah. So the Golden State Warriors started a record label and they are planning to sign and support the artists that are local in the area, right? Like they want to invest in the talent here and using their arena and using the concerts that come through as a platform, maybe some of their own documentaries. They're trying to use that and use that as a platform to push these artists. [00:36:10] Rexx Life Raj: That's crazy. No, I did not know that. That's actually insane. That's tight though. That's interesting. I need to read the article because that's crazy. [00:36:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I'll send it to you. Yeah, because I actually just interviewed the guy that's running it, David Kelly. He's their Chief Business Officer over there. So yeah. I'll send you the link to that too.[00:36:26] Rexx Life Raj: Dope, man. I appreciate that. That's clean. [00:36:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. But Raj, before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about? [00:36:37] Rexx Life Raj: Man, I'm dropping The Blue Hour soon. Appreciate you having me, man. I appreciate anybody who's watching this who's been a fan of me for however long and, you know, stay tapped in, and I appreciate y'all. [00:36:48] Dan Runcie: Yes, sir. And where can people find you?[00:36:49] Rexx Life Raj: Anywhere, man. Google. I'm on every platform, Rexx Life Raj, R-E-X-X-L-I-F-E-R-A-J. You know, if you know how to use the internet on your phone, you can find me. I'm everywhere, man.[00:37:05] Dan Runcie: That sounds good, man. [00:37:07] Rexx Life Raj: All right, man. I appreciate you. [00:37:09] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

The Golden State Warriors took the commonly-said phrase “every company is a media company” and did one better, launching a first-of-its-kind organization, Golden State Entertainment (GSE). Leading this brand-new entertainment company is Warriors’ chief business officer David Kelly, who joined me on this episode of the Trapital podcast to discuss the brand-new endeavor. While GSE is an extension of the Warriors brand, it wasn’t created with the sole purpose of advancing the NBA team. It’s a completely separate company (not a division) and as Kelly told me, it needs to be profitable. To do so, GSE will produce original documentaries, music, and events.Announced in April 2022, GSE has wasted no time breaking into the entertainment space. It’s already inked deals with iconic acts like Rhymefest and No I.D., released a song with K-pop star BamBam, and announced a documentary around Bay Area’s own Jeremy Lin.The Warriors are building a sports, entertainment, media, and technology company in front of us and this interview shines light into the entertainment piece. Here’s everything David and I covered in this episode:[3:10] How The Golden State Warriors Got Into Music & Film[5:34] Measuring Success For GSE Record Label[7:05] Synergy Opportunities With NBA Team[8:11] What’s An Artist Deal At GSE Look Like?[9:32] Why Rhymefest & No I.D. Joined GSE [14:55] Crypto’s Influence On Golden State & NBA Naming Rights Deals[16:52] What Type Of Projects GSE Is Pursuing[21:22] Why Can’t GSE Do A Steph Curry Documentary Until He’s Retired?[23:13] Is There A New Era Of Documentaries?[25:07] Upcoming GSE ProjectsListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: David Kelly, @goldenstateent This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz  Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] David Kelly: We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing Warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves, even you know only doing basketball stories. We want to do, and I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them.[00:00:18] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and, if not for our participation, the story maybe doesn't get told then we'll be involved. [00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.[00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is David Kelly. He's the Chief Business Officer and Chief Legal Officer of the Golden State Warriors. And he's the head of the new Golden State Entertainment, which has focused on music, media and more. That's right. The Golden State Warriors are starting a record label. Believe me, when I heard this, I paused what I was doing, and I said, "Okay, I got to learn more. Tell me everything." And it was great to have David on to hear more about it. A lot of the inspiration for the record label came from David's own experience in hip hop. He was an artist himself, Capital D. We talked about how his journey through music influenced what he saw the platform for, of this team and ultimately the opportunities that they could provide for artists.[00:01:41] Dan Runcie: They also have some great vets in the game that have jumped on board. No I.D. is an advisor to Golden State Entertainment, as well as Rhymefest who was signed on to join the record label himself. You may know both of them from their relationship with Kanye West and the work and influence he's done there.[00:01:58] Dan Runcie: And David's old relationship with Rhymefest, too. So this was great to chat about. And we also talked about some of the potential projects coming down the pipeline. They're actually working on a project telling the story of Jeremy Lin, who is a Bay Area native and especially around everything that happened with Linsanity We're coming up on the decade anniversary of that and the influence he had on his New York Knicks run.[00:02:21] Dan Runcie: And we talk about what some of those future projects may look like. We also talk about some of the trends happening right now with naming rights and all of the cryptocurrencies and Web 3.0 companies that are fighting for naming rights, both inside and outside of the arenas as well. This is a fun chat.[00:02:37] Dan Runcie: And if you're interested in how teams like the Warriors, a team that is worth nearly $6 billion, how are they thinking about things and using their platform? This is the episode for you had a great chat. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my talk with David Kelly.[00:02:52] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we have David Kelly, head of Golden State Entertainment, which recently launched a record label. Congratulations. And let's actually start there. When did you first get the idea to start a record label for an NBA basketball team? [00:03:10] David Kelly: Yeah, so it's, it's funny. So, I mean, the company is two parts.[00:03:13] David Kelly: We're doing film and we're doing music as well. And so the idea has been something that's been kicking around in my head for maybe three years now. And it really came from conversations with our ownership group around what we want to create as the Golden State Warriors. Like we see ourselves as a sports team, but really a sports entertainment media technology company.[00:03:32] David Kelly: And it's up to me to try to figure out, all of us at the Warriors, to figure out what that really means and what kind of skills we can bring to bear on creating that larger vision so that to make it a reality. And so I thought about like what we do on the marketing side and what we do as a sports team, like we create stories, we create content.[00:03:51] David Kelly: And then I thought about my own personal background in the music front. And I always saw myself as a content creator storyteller. And I started thinking about how can we bridge these two worlds? And so just over time, it's just the idea started becoming more and more apparent that this is something that we can be doing as the Golden State Warriors, and we, you know, there's this ancillary markets that are close, very close to sports, specifically to basketball. and we can create content in that space, whether it's film and/or music, so. [00:04:20] Dan Runcie: And I feel like your background, as well as an artist, Capital D, you had an experience that you understand exactly what it takes and the nuances of the music industry. So I feel like that as well, likely had a, as you mentioned, a pretty big influence on wanting to bring this to life. [00:04:39] David Kelly: It did. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's kind of aligning my passions and my background, my experiences into just bringing it all into even greater alignment and, with the platform of the Golden State Warriors platform that the NBA provides and being able to take who I am and really, really of dig into it and align it.[00:05:00] Dan Runcie: Right. And then for the record label itself, let's talk a little bit about that. What do you see as success for the record label? How will you measure that? Because I'm sure that some people could maybe think that you obviously have a very successful basketball team itself. Is this something more that extends the brand and gets more customers in? Or is it something that, you know, stand alone, does have its own benchmarks for profitability or some of the other things looking at how other record labels may manage themselves? [00:05:34] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to, it's both. It definitely is an extension of the brand and it's good for the Golden State Warrior brand. It's already paying dividends there, but it's a separate company that has it's, it's not like a division of the Warriors. This is a separate company that we launched.[00:05:48] David Kelly: And it needs to be a profitable company and we're going to run it as such. In addition, we want to make sure that we're having an impact with the art that we put out, with the music they'll be put out and we want it to be relevant. We want it to speak to issues. We want it to inspire people. And so it's nothing new for a record label to be focused on that, but because we are attached to a separate organization, a separate team, it needs to all be consistent with our mission as Golden State Warriors. And so what we do all has to, it's that word alignment again. It all has to be aligned. So, yeah, so we're going to make some money.[00:06:25] David Kelly: We're going to do dope projects. We're going to have an impact. And it's all going to speak to the benefit of the Golden State Warrior brand. [00:06:33] Dan Runcie: I'm envisioning some type of opportunities, just leveraging the platform you already have, whether that's, at halftime artists that assigned to the label coming out and being able to perform their, they have a platform or on the other side, as artists are performing at the Chase Center, being able to feature them as headliners for some of the A-list acts that come through.[00:06:55] Dan Runcie: I feel like you having that, and then you also have the channel as well. Just being able to leverage each of these things to amplify the voice of the platform you have. [00:07:05] David Kelly: Check, check, check. So, yes. So at game two in the series against Memphis, actually it was game four, the second home game in our, in the series against Memphis.[00:07:16] David Kelly: MAYZIN, who's the first artist who got signed, who signed to Golden State Entertainment, he performed at halftime in that game. And so, so yes, what you envision is, already come into pass. And in fact, the very, before we had even announced Golden State Entertainment, we had BamBam, performed at halftime right before we released the song by MAYZIN and BamBam. I mean, that was our last home game of the season against the Lakers. So yes, we definitely want to use that. We already bring talent in, artists in to perform. And so, yeah, we should be using the same sort of, the same homegrown talent that we have at GSE and finding these new ways to get exposure for artists who are affiliated with. [00:07:56] Dan Runcie: And for the artists listening that may be interested, I know where in this era where a lot of artists want to own their masters. They want to be able to have their own flexibility. Well, what does some of that look like for the artists that would be considering GSE? [00:08:11] David Kelly: Well, so I'm not going to get into the finer deal points that we have, but like something like, BamBam. Bambam was with this group called GOT7, obviously, right? And then he went solo. We did a song with BamBam. Bambam is not signed to Golden State Entertainment, right? He has his own career as an independent artist, huge following. So we can align ourselves with any number of artists who are not signed to our label.[00:08:36] David Kelly: And so I think that's something different than your typical record label in that we have this platform that the Golden State Warriors that has his own benefit that we bring to major artists to, to larger artists. And we have something that I think that's already attractive to an artist. So it doesn't have to be a long-term deal necessarily instead of every instance that we, that we're doing a partnership or collaboration with an artist, so. [00:09:00] Dan Runcie: And to that point, the connections and a lot of that is what makes the difference even when people see and understand the brand, or you had Too $hort performing at game one of the Western Conference finals, E-40's courtside at all of these games, like you have the culture that's there so I do think that you have that.[00:09:19] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. One of the other things I saw too, is that you all have Rhymefest who, of course, is an established artist himself, long-time collaborator with Kanye West. What did that relationship look like and getting him on board? [00:09:32] David Kelly: Yeah. So Rhymefest is like family. So that, that is a friend of mine going back 30 years. And when I think about, we're trying to build GSE, who do I want to align ourselves with from a brand perspective? When I think about one of the best writers that we have in hip hop over the past several decades, someone who actually has been an activist in his life still very, you know, very wise and very relevant at the same time, people like Rhymefest come to mind. And so that's where that kind of collaboration came from.[00:10:06] David Kelly: And No I.D., the same way, right? Like this is your OGs' OG when it comes to knowledge of the industry, knowledge of executive coaching. Someone who can help me just in terms of, trying to really run and build Golden State Entertainment. So to have him as a strategic advisor, also as a cultural advisor and producer, like there's no better person. And so, yeah, and those are just relationships from, you know, both of those guys are like family, so. [00:10:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's great. That's great. And then are there any partnerships right now on the major record label side, or is it mostly an independent operation? [00:10:46] David Kelly: Independent at the moment, who knows what the future might bring. But I'm independent at the moment. We have a distribution agreement, so we go through a distributor like your typical indie label would what would do, and we go from there. [00:10:58] Dan Runcie: Nice. And something else you mentioned, taking a step back, looking at GSE more broadly, you mentioned the tech side and I always thought a lot about the rise of tech in the bay area, along with the rise of Golden State Warriors, just when they were in that run 2015 on with Steph, Klay, and Draymond, and we had heard so much about the investments that they were getting involved with.[00:11:23] Dan Runcie: I think this is a lot of what attracted KD. I know that Andre Iguodala and Steph had done work with Mastry and Rudy Cline-Thomas, and what he's done there. So, a lot of that at least to be seemed like the area brought them there, but they were each doing their own separate things. So it's interesting to hear what you may have alluded to in terms of the GSE in the Warriors itself, doing a bit more directly on the investment side.[00:11:49] David Kelly: Yeah. And so on the investment side, as it relates to tech, it's less GSE and more just the Golden State Warriors. And we have a separate arm that looks at various different tech investments. So that's separate from GSE. GSE is on the content front, film and music. But when we talk about us being a sports entertainment, media, and technology organization, we are as an, as a larger organization, that Golden State Warriors looking to make various different tech investments. The background of members of our ownership group, specifically, Joe Lacob, a fantastically successful venture capitalist. And so like he knows what he's doing when it comes to looking at those sorts of investments. [00:12:27] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.[00:12:30] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Especially the past few years, I feel like there's so many teams as well that have either been getting more involved with crypto, where the rights for naming, with a lot of the crypto companies sponsoring arenas as well. And I know that some of that, you're also the Chief Business Officer for the organization too. What does that wave been like at least from your perspective when you're seeing some of the companies that want to, whether it's naming rights or wanting to be able to partner with the team on a more direct basis?[00:13:02] David Kelly: Yeah. I mean, so we're always looking to be at the forefront of new, innovative, whether it's technologies, ways of doing business. And so I see that world for the Golden State Warriors connects to what we'd have done in, in the NFT space. And we actually, we have a partnership ourselves with FTX. And so we were, I think the very first sports team to do an NFT drop around this time last year.[00:13:27] David Kelly: And so I do not, by any means, consider myself to be an expert in that space, but we, as an organization, want to make sure that we're on the cutting edge and innovative, and we have a number of people at the organization who are experts in that space and guide our hand in terms of looking into different companies with which we'll push to partner in ways in which to invest in, in Web 3.0 and NFTs and things of that nature, so.[00:13:49] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I guess on this note, thinking about naming rights more broadly, I know that the Chase Center had signed the deal with Kaiser. You, of course, have Thrive City and naming that through them. And then with the Chase Center as well, obviously with Chase too, it feels like every few years we do go through these waves where a lot of the teams do start to change or they do start to re-up their things. And I feel like the past couple of years, we've been in one of those modes now. Does it feel that way from your perspective, or do you feel like these things are constantly changing? [00:14:24] David Kelly: When you say one of one of those modes now, can you elaborate what you mean?[00:14:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So I feel like in the past couple of years, especially the NBA, there's been a lot of teams, either, A, changing their naming rights to crypto-related companies that like things that are reflecting the current wave, or maybe the same thing with their outdoor space. And I know a lot of these things may change from time and time again, but I feel like the past, like, two, three years, we saw a wave. It felt like there was a lot more turnover than maybe there was in the three years or four years before that. [00:14:55] David Kelly: Yeah, I think that may be more coincidence. I think those things go cyclical. And so you'll have your naming rights deal, whether it's for an outdoor space or for the arena itself, your 10- year deal or 20- year deal.[00:15:07] David Kelly: And just when those deals come up, they come up. And so I haven't talked to my counterparts at the other teams about it, but I'm pretty sure that those new deals that you're seeing are, they're as, a legacy deal that just happened to expire sometime over the last couple of years. And yes the crypto space is very hot right now.[00:15:25] David Kelly: So you'll see, you know, crypto arena and things of that nature, definitely jumping in and using sports properties, specifically arenas as a way to promote their product. And so you'll see a lot more arenas being named in the crypto space, but I don't think that the number of partnerships that have changed hands over the last couple of years is increased.[00:15:44] David Kelly: I don't think that's the case. You've just probably would see more concentration inside of that particular, with that particular industry. [00:15:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think maybe the other side of it too, is that because at least from my perspective, we're seeing more of the outdoor spaces as well. Like having those and maybe a bit more valid.[00:16:01] Dan Runcie: I think I recently saw that the box area, they call it Deer District. They're looking for $4 billion for the naming rights for that. And I mean, sure, other teams are seeing that. I mean, you already have yours with Warriors. I'm sure other teams will see that, okay, like how could we get our version of that?[00:16:17] David Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. We named our entire plaza as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so we sold naming rights with respect to the arena as Chase Center. And then, sold naming rights with respect to the entire district as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so similar things happening with other teams. [00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Got it. So shifting gears a bit, I want to talk a bit more about the other multimedia areas of GSE. So outside of music, we talked a bit about movies. You talked about what it could look like. It’s just like film and video in general. What does that outlook look like? What are you envisioning for the type of projects you can release? [00:16:52] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to be involved in projects that are rooted in sports. By no means are they limited by sports, right? And so one of the first projects, and our involvement can be any number of things. We could be a producer. We might come to the table with the script, with the entirety of the idea. There might be a project that's already moving forward and it just kinda needs us to make some connections and, and help to facilitate and so we could be putting money in not putting money in, lending our platform, any number, any number of things. And so, but one of the first projects that we got involved with was a project that was already moving forward, called 38 At the Garden about Jeremy Lin. We came in to help facilitate the production of that project.[00:17:31] David Kelly: And it really is a, it's exactly what it is we want to be doing on the film side at GSE. It's a story that's rooted in sports. It's the 10 year anniversary of Linsanity, but the true relevance of the project and why it speaks to us, and why I think it's going to speak to so many people, it's premiering at Tribeca in a couple of weeks, is because, more recently, the Stop AAPI Hate Movement and the violence against members of the Asian American community makes Jeremy Lin's story that much more relevant. And there's, so there's a social relevance to his story, which is why it really appeals to us. So we want to be telling stories that are rooted in sports, but have a larger social component to them.[00:18:11] David Kelly: And so Lin, Jeremy Lin's story is specifically that. And so, yeah, we're proud to be a part of it.[00:18:15] Dan Runcie: That makes sense, especially given the connection there because I think that some people may hear the association immediately, they may think, okay, well, he's a New York Knick. How did the Golden State Warriors get involved with the project for the New York Knicks?[00:18:28] Dan Runcie: Like, wouldn't the Madison Square Garden, or their, entertainment group be all over this? But what was the process like for that? Because I do assume that that is something that they would want to be heavily involved with, or maybe even potentially protective of.[00:18:43] David Kelly: Well, to be clear, he's from the Bay Area. And his first shot in the NBA was with the Warriors and his last shot in the NBA was with the Warriors.[00:18:51] David Kelly: So, our stories, we do not have to, we're not only going to be involved in stories that are Golden State Warriors stories, but for Jeremy, there are several Golden State Warrior ties, which is why it was something that we were very much focused on him and his story. We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves even, you know, only doing basketball stories we want to do. And I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them.[00:19:24] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and if not for our participation, the story, maybe doesn't get told then. we'll be involved [00:19:36] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I assume this also extends with scripted content as well, whether that is, you know, movies and films and things like that.[00:19:43] David Kelly: Yeah. we are starting off in the unscripted space, but we do not want to limit ourselves, put it that way. I think there's a lot that we can bring to bear whether on those unscripted or scripted side. [00:19:52] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Thinking about your team though, and thinking about some of the stories you have potential for, a few things come to mind that I think would be amazing to see if there was something about it, that "We Believe" Warriors, that run. We'd love to see something like that. That's one of them, the other one that comes to mind is what would the Warriors' version of a Last Dance look like, right? Like we obviously have to see how this playoff run goes, but what would that look like?[00:20:21] Dan Runcie: I mean, I have to imagine that there's been some type of recording that has footage, that hasn't already been broadcast about everything from a, likely even well before that year you won the championship because this core group had been together for so long. [00:20:35] David Kelly: You have a very vivid imagination.[00:20:40] Dan Runcie: Well played,well played. [00:20:42] David Kelly: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Let's just say that. [00:20:46] Dan Runcie: Well, the one thing that you can comment on, which I saw and you can correct me if I got this right, but I saw something that said that GSE couldn't do a documentary on Steph Curry until he retires because of the League's collective bargaining agreement.[00:21:03] Dan Runcie: And when I first saw this, I had to pause and think about it because I was like, I thought that Steph had had stuff with Facebook, I thing, one of those shows. I think him and Ayesha have that HBO show. What is the aspect that makes it that he could do stuff with them, but you all couldn't do something like this?[00:21:22] David Kelly: Yeah. So, I mean, it seems a little, it doesn't seem intuitive, but when you think about it actually does make sense. So if we're paying, the salary cap is such that we can't pay Steph more than X dollars, so we can pay them X dollars in terms of his contract. But then we can go do a movie with him that's going to make X plus Y or X or 3X dollars.[00:21:43] David Kelly: The League will look at that and the other 29 teams will look at that as a salary cap and salary cap circumvention. And so I get it. It makes, it actually does make sense. It protects us the same way, protects all the teams. And so, yeah, you can't have your separate deals under the table deals with a player where you're driving revenue to that player outside of his player contract.[00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Okay. That makes sense. So, because it's still technically part of the broader organization, that's why versus obviously Facebook is completely independent. Okay. [00:22:13] David Kelly: Yeah. [00:22:13] Dan Runcie: Interesting. [00:22:15] David Kelly: So it's not to say that the player can't go out and make, you know, 5X, his player, his salary, more often times 10, 20X his playing contract. It just can't come from the team.[00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Got it. That makes sense. And maybe one thing that you may be able to comment on that I've been thinking about, especially just given the era that we're in now with how much more is being recorded, every person has their own channel to share things, whether that's Steph or a Draymond or whoever it is. I feel like that may make the filmmaking of a future Warriors-run documentary a little different than something like say The Last Dance when content and media was just less saturated then. So the footage and the concept they were able to have stands out in a unique way.[00:22:59] Dan Runcie: Does that shape overall, at least at this era, how you may approach documentary projects or what the unique angle may be given all of the opportunities for these players and for other outlets to be able to share their voice? [00:23:13] David Kelly: Oh, it does. It does. It changes it. In some ways it makes the player a lot more known and relevant and universal.[00:23:21] David Kelly: I mean, if you think, if you look at a player like Draymond, who has been able to, he's a personality on TNT. He has his own podcast and he's phenomenal inside of all that, all the different venues that he's in, it makes them a lot more. It makes him a lot more marketable. And so that could be a very good thing for when we're trying to do, if we might try to do a, and make our version of The Last Dance documentary, right? Cause I think that, you know, there are still stories to be told. There is still the definitive story to be told. And so I don't think that it necessarily detracts from what it is that we're trying to do. I think one can build upon the other. Maybe we have to look at it differently in some of the stories that we're gonna maybe tell are going to be a little bit different than stories that you may have already heard as a listener. [00:24:06] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think in a lot of ways, the fact that there is more means there's so much more to build upon. I think back to last year. So this would have been 2021 when Draymond and Kevin Durant had had that Bleacher report conversation they had, and it created enough buzz to create a moment, at least for people that follow the NBA.[00:24:25] Dan Runcie: And you got two people that were just sharing their thoughts on one particular aspect of, you know, not one particular aspect, but one of the main things surrounding that discussion was one of the infamous interactions that they had had. So I think that those things do, like you're saying they build upon each other and they create new opportunities to tell and share these stories.[00:24:45] David Kelly: That's right. I agree. [00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Well, this has been great. I think it's exciting. You have a lot of stuff that's, we're definitely going to keep an eye on and I guess before we let you go though, are there any future GSE projects that you're excited about or anything that we haven't touched upon? Or as you're thinking about what the future looks like, where the potential is at, where things are going?[00:25:07] David Kelly: I mean, there's a number of film projects that we're working on right now. Not in a position to announce anything yet, but we, there may, there's another one that we're working on with respect to, a retired basketball player, probably gets announced over the next month or so. And when that comes out, you know exactly what I'm, talking about. What we have announced are some of, is the lineup that we have on the music side. And so I'm really excited for people to hear this new J.U.I.C.E. project and a couple of projects that we have with Georgia Anne Muldrow, because those are two legacy artists who I think have not received their just due in their careers.[00:25:41] David Kelly: And I think there's an underground, hardcore support that they have. And we're just looking to see if we can expand upon that because I think Georgia Anne is the Nina Simone of our generation, like she is, her voice and her ability to produce and sing and, and her viewpoint on the world is just something that would just love to be aligned with.[00:26:01] David Kelly: I love listen to and be aligned with. And so I'm really excited about that project. [00:26:04] Dan Runcie: Nice. Any plans in audio, not music-related, podcasting. [00:26:10] David Kelly: We've kicked some things around. Yeah. We've kicked some things around, nothing that's concrete at the moment, but you know, we're, we are aware of all the various different mediums.[00:26:19] David Kelly: And so we're looking to see how it is that we might be able to do storytelling be all on different media. [00:26:25] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Looking forward to it. Well, David, this is great. Thanks for coming on and chatting. Before we let you go, where can people find you or find the GSE if they want to follow up and keep up to tabs with everything that you have coming?[00:26:39] David Kelly: Yeah, so, we're going to start doing a much better job updating our website. So our website is gsent.com and we're also on Twitter and on Instagram as well. [00:26:49] Dan Runcie: All right, sounds good. Thank you. This was great. [00:26:52] David Kelly: Hey, appreciate it, man. This was great.[00:26:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

On this episode, we switched things up! Instead of a standard interview, I talked about a few recent topics with the best-selling author, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. He has long had his pulse on the music industry. Between his past time covering the business at Forbes, writing acclaimed books on the likes of Jay-Z and Michael Jackson, or his current Substack blog, Zack has formed both a macro- and micro-view of the entire industry. He’s the perfect person to bring onto Trapital to discuss the stories reverberating across the music business today.One of those stories is Spotify’s floundering performance as of late. The streaming leader’s stock has cratered to all-time lows, partly due to so-so performance, but also as a byproduct of Netflix’s own struggles. But if you ask Zack, the commonalities between Netflix and Spotify aren’t as close as critics will have you believe. Specifically, Spotify’s “unlimited buffet” business model is a massive differentiator. And then there’s Apple officially discounting the iPod after 21 years. Whether it gets the credit or not, the innovative product re-shaped the music business into what we see today. As a “legal Napster”, it laid the groundwork for today’s streaming-dominated industry — not just for music, but podcasts too. Check out all the topics Zack and I covered in this episode of Trapital:[0:00] Zack’s First Experiences with The iPod[6:11] Steve Jobs First iPod Keynote[8:33] iPod As A Gateway Into Apple Ecosystem [12:16] Will iPod Have A Resurgence Like Vinyl? [14:48] U2’s Free Album On Apple Backfires [18:55] Spotify’s Current Business Struggles[20:09] Why Spotify Shouldn’t Be Compared To Netflix[27:23] Do Spotify And Netflix Have Content Problems?[33:00] Examining Bad Bunny’s Meteoric Rise In Six Years[38:21] Latin Music Succeeding In US Despite Language Barrier [40:12] Did Jay Z Ruin Robinson Cano’s Career?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz  Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: If you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and, I know that the market is cooled down a bit, but still, you know, you're in a fairly mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that he has, especially if you're trying to get into the Spanish language market. It's untoppable and, you know, I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too.[00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.[00:00:49] Dan Runcie: On today's episode, we switched things up a little bit. This is normally an interview-style podcast, but I did a recent survey. And many of you say you wanted to hear more from me. You wanted to hear my insights, my perspective on this space and where things are heading. So it was a great time to invite back Zack O'Malley Greenburg.[00:01:08] Dan Runcie: You may know him from his work at Forbes, where he started a lot of the reporting on how much money hip hop artists were making and the potential for what they could do in the business world. So we covered a bunch of topics in this episode. First, we talked about the iPod. Apple recently announced that they are discontinuing the influential device after almost 21 years in its production. So Zach and I talk about the device's importance and influence. Then we talked about Spotify. The stock is trading at an all-time low. So we talk about what does that mean for streaming? What does that mean for music and, more broadly, how does that compare to video and other types of streaming?[00:01:45] Dan Runcie: Then we talked about the current king of streaming, of the current king of Spotify. Bad Bunny is the biggest artist in the world. So we talk about the impact and importance of what that means for a Latin artist, a Latin artist, who is yet to do a song in English and how cool that is. And then we close things out where we talked about Robinson Canó, who is a baseball player and how his career took a bit of a different turn after he sides with Jay-Z's Roc Nation sports agency.[00:02:12] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoy this episode. If you do, send a note and let us know, because that's the type of stuff that encourages great content. I hope you enjoy it. Here's our conversation. All right. We got Zack O'Malley Greenburg with us today and we are going to cover a bunch of topics. And the first one that's near and dear to both of us is we got to pour some out for the iPod. After almost 21 years, the device that changed the game, Apple announced it's discontinuing it.[00:02:38] Dan Runcie: And it's a great time to talk about its legacy, its impact. So first let's start here cause I know that you likely owned a bunch of these. I did too. How many iPods did you own and which version was the first one you got? [00:02:50] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh man. You know, I think I had originally one of the clunky ones that didn't have sort of like the touch wheel, you know, like the kind of mano, you know, the, what is it like the black and white kind of a janky one.[00:03:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But the one that really sticks in my mind was right around the time that Bono was doing all those commercials. And I remember my godfather was like, I want to get you a nice present for your birthday. He's like, I want to get you like, like a personal DVD player. And I was like, that's very sweet of you. And I really appreciate that. Can I have an iPod instead?[00:03:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: He was like, what's this iPod? But yeah. I mean, it was, I think that one that must have been. I don't know, maybe around 2005, that was when they started getting really sexy-looking. And, and you had the touch wheel and you had kind of like the sleek black look on it instead of like, you know, sort of like the white witch, which would get kind of, you know, get kind of grimy, at least mine did.[00:03:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But this was sleek. I think the back was silver. I mean, it was really a work of art and that was when I started thinking it's only a matter of time before they just make one of these as a phone, you know? And I'm sure, you know, having talked to people at Apple over the years, by the time they put out that iPod in the mid-aughts, they already had a design on the iPhone, but there would have been no, you know, no iPhone if there weren't an iPod.[00:04:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, in many ways, I think the iPod saved the music industry, right? I mean, when they created that ecosystem, it just became easier to get your music, you know, through the legal means than by downloading them, you know, downloading those MP3s illegally and say what you will about the depth of the album and the issues of like breaking up albums and selling them single by single.[00:04:31] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, I think that really provided the bridge that the music industry needed to get to the streaming era. So yeah. Pour one out, indeed. How about you, Dan, what was your first?[00:04:41] Dan Runcie: Ah, yeah. So the first one for me, let's see, I want to say it was 2004, I bought the iPod mini because I didn't have a Mac at home. So I waited until they were compatible on PC.[00:04:54] Dan Runcie: And I added, I think I was working either at Dairy Queen or I was working at our local parks and rec at the time. And one of the first paychecks I had, I was like, no, let me go take this, buy iPod mini. So I had that, but listen, after two months of having that, and I was one of the first people in the school to have one at the time. I left it in my pocket and put it in the washing machine, like a typical teenager would, and that thing gets ruined. Right. So then I was like, okay, fine. Let me get another one. This time I was making CDs at the time, I was burning them and selling them in school. So I said, okay, I need a bigger operation here. Let me get the full-on classic one.[00:05:34] Dan Runcie: Got that, within two months of getting that, so this is around the time of high school graduation. I put the bag into this bleacher area by the school where we had the graduation. I go back after graduation. Someone takes that bag, someone in the class must've seen me put it there, and then that was gone. So then by the time I'm entering in college, I said, you know what?[00:05:55] Dan Runcie: I just need to get another one. So I bought three iPods within an 18-month period. It's one of the most ridiculous things. And obviously for the kid that was making $7 an hour at various jobs, would be at a camp counselor, working at Dairy Queen and other places. That's what I spent my money on. I bought it on iPods.[00:06:11] Dan Runcie: So I had to go into freshman year of college, fresh with of those things, but as I had that, that one I did have for a while though, I kept that one for a number of years. And I think I eventually got a Shuffle later on for running and stuff like that. So I think, so I guess I had four devices total, but I agree with you. Take a step back, thinking about the device overall. I'd actually went back and watched Steve Job's keynote that he initially did.[00:06:35] Dan Runcie: And he had done keynote presentations before for all the other products that he had throughout the years. But I feel like this one is the one that really turned to the pop culture aspect of the Steve Job's keynote with, he was no longer wearing the suits. He’s wearing the black turtleneck tucked into the jeans.[00:06:51] Dan Runcie: Takes the iPod out of the pocket, has the “hundred songs in your pocket” quote. And I think, from there, what you mentioned too about the bridge that this was for streaming. It makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, look at the way iTunes is set up. iTunes was essentially a legalized version of Napster, right? Instead of just downloading the songs for free, let's take a similar layout and make it look a lot cleaner than Napster did.[00:07:14] Dan Runcie: And you can download the songs yourself. The thing that's interesting though, if we just think about Apple's influence in this space over the years. This was the company that essentially paved the way for digital music technology, listening, both from companies in the industry. And it did the same for podcasting as well.[00:07:33] Dan Runcie: And for years, Jobs didn't want to get into music streaming. He thought that having an annual or having a monthly subscription for it wasn't the best idea. And obviously, we know that podcasting as well. Although it was something that Apple started, we're looking now, with the way things are, yes, they have presence in both podcasting and of music, but Apple isn't the industry leader in any of these spaces. So we can have a whole podcast episode about what's changed, but even though there's a lot that necessarily maybe hasn't taken off in the same way. You can't knock the influence of what this product did in just its evolution over the years and what it led to. I was looking at some stats earlier. Its sales peaked in 2008, 2009, right? You could still, after the iPhone came out, so you had this whole runway of time where they just kept selling more and more and they just eventually figured it out. And they had a whole system of these things that you're selling 20, 30 billion of them a quarter. It's crazy. [00:08:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh yeah. And you know, the deeper you get into the Apple ecosystem, right. I mean, and I'm fully embedded. I'm stuck. There's no way out. You know, I remember with that, you know, the U2 era iPod, you could still, you know, when you plugged it into your computer, you would still see that little iPod icon on your desktop and you could open it up as though it were, you know, an external hard drive and you could, you know, move files in and out.[00:08:59] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And it didn't really, there were no questions asked as to where the files were obtained, you know, and they would show up in your music library and you can put all kinds of different files on there. And it was great. And then, you know, with each successive version, so they eventually eliminated that. And you know, now of course, if you have iTunes, you know, songs that you may have had in there from the, from the Limewire and Kazaa era just suddenly disappeared.[00:09:21] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, you can't really get them back unless you have them backed up somewhere on a physical hard drive. So, you know, I think that there was also a level of control that Apple got, but, you know, but to have you be part of that ecosystem, I think that's the most valuable thing for them, right? I mean, if you look at Apple or Spotify, you know, like you were talking sure, Apple is not the leader in the music streaming business. Apple Music is I guess, a distant second, but they, you know, they don't need to win that because the hardware turns out or at least in the case of the iPod. And now that, you know, more recently that the iPhone, that the hardware turns out to be more valuable than the software, you know, looking at Spotify.[00:09:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, intellectual property, right? If the, if you have to pay for the intellectual property or your, you know, or a whole huge chunk of that is coming out of. You know, out of your profits or your revenue before you get to profit, you know, it's a, it's a lot harder to make a ton of money than it is for a company like Apple, where the iPod or the iPhone, you know, that was their intellectual property and they could sell it for whatever they want to. [00:10:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, that's a good point. It makes it even think about AirPods. Now. Now I always see those infographics of AirPod revenue, and comparing that to all of these other tech companies. And how have you just looked at this one product that Apple has and how it does better than so many of the household companies that we have.[00:10:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But for you though, was the iPod the first product that pushed you onto Apple? Or were you in a household that had iMacs and things like that? [00:10:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, no, I was, my first computer was an Apple, I think I only ever owned one or two computers that were not Apples. And that was when my gaming buddies in high school convinced me to get something else. But yeah, no, it's been, you know, from back in the day for me. So, I'm stuck. [00:11:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I do think for a lot of people, this product ended up being the game-changer. Yeah. I know it took a few generations for them to eventually put it and make it Windows-compatible. And it's funny. I was looking back, there was a few conversations where Tony Fadell, the guy who had actually invented it, essentially that worked with Apple on it.[00:11:26] Dan Runcie: They had had a whole bunch of conversations about what ends up leading to what. And I think for a while, Jobs was under the impression that if you keep the iPod as Apple iOS exclusive device that it'll encourage more people to buy future iMac or Apple products, but what actually ended up happening, they pushed for the opposite and they saw the opposite where make the device compatible people then see, and they get introduced to the Apple world.[00:11:55] Dan Runcie: And then that makes them want to then buy more iMacs and buy more MacBooks and buy things like that. So it was the opposite push-pull of what they thought happens. And it's one of those things where instead of restricting access to make people think that they want, that they, you're restricting. How do you give people a taste and then have them naturally want to get it on there on their own?[00:12:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Absolutely. I mean, I think it almost mirrors being an artist, right? I mean, you don't want to withhold your art, your music from streaming services so that people will go out and buy the vinyl or, or, you know, back in those days, download the MP3. You want people to be out there and getting familiar with your work.[00:12:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And you're not going to cannibalize yourself if people really like you. I mean, just look at Taylor Swift, you know, her fans go out and buy her vinyl, you know, by the hundred thousand and they can certainly have access to it whenever they want on the streaming services. [00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Speaking of vinyls, it stuck out to me that there were a bunch of iPod Touch that sold out immediately.[00:12:51] Dan Runcie: So essentially the line is completely gone now and even a few on eBay that were going for crazy prices after this announcement came out and it made me think, is the iPod going to be the way that vinyls are looked at now? Is there going to be this resurgence for this retro thing where people look back and let's say that as millennials or gen Z have, kids, they want to see, okay, what was this generation listening to when they were teenagers and they'd go back and be like, oh, let's check out Zack's iPod, let's check out Dan's iPod or whatever else. Do you think that there is a resurgence in that type of way the same way we're seeing with vinyl? [00:13:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I could see maybe I think the main issue would be a compatibility, right? In the way that you, you know, not even Apple to PC, but you know, old Apple stuff isn't even necessarily compatible with, compatible with new Apple stuff.[00:13:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So if I wanted to plug in my old iPod, if I could dig it up wherever it was. I don't think I even have a freaking USB port on my computer. No, I don't. [00:13:49] Dan Runcie: You need like five dongles. You need like a firewire, USB to USB to C. [00:13:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly. And so, and even then it's like what songs will it remove, will my computer remove from my iPod or vice versa?[00:14:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So, I mean, I almost wonder if there's the really old ones where you go and you can see, like you can open it up like that U2 era iPod, and actually just manually move the MP3 tracks around, if those still work somehow, you know, that might be almost the way of safeguarding one's music files from being kinda like yanked up into the ether.[00:14:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I think whereas, vinyl, despite being somewhat cumbersome, it is ultimately plug and play. You plug it into a standard outlet, put the thing on pretty mechanical. So yeah, I do think that might be the only drawback, but yeah, I could totally see it. The next hipster thing, being dongles at all, finding the way to use iPod. So, yeah, just, I guess cassette tapes are making it come back to, so, you know, just like vinyl, even CDs were up, you know, over the past year or so.[00:14:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: What's old is new again. [00:14:48] Dan Runcie: I know, right? You never know if someone had told me when the iPod first came out, that vinyls would've made a comeback, I'd never would have thought that, but you mentioned plug and play and you mentioned U2 earlier. We have to talk about the greatest hack of all time with whatever you plug this damn device into any USB thing, U2's album automatically starts playing.[00:15:07] Dan Runcie: How they were able to get that to happen and I know it wasn't a hundred percent intended, but it also kind of was so however they were able to do that, eventually I do think it got on the nerves of many people and we saw from whether it was Apple or even Spotify later on people feeling like these services are pushing certain artists on them.[00:15:27] Dan Runcie: I do think that that is one of the understated hacks that we've seen in both of U2's major deals with Apple. [00:15:36] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just remember, you know, right. They gave away that album and you woke up one morning and it was on your iTunes and all these people were freaking out, like, get this off my computer.[00:15:45] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I can't get it off my computer. I don't want this taking up hard drive space. Like first of all, how much hard drive space is taken up? You have a Mac anyway, probably. And it's, you know, it's fine. Is Bono really that offensive to you? Like U2? I mean, I don't know. I think it's sort of, you know, I mean, I don't want to say like easy listening, but it's not like offensive, like who is offended by U2?[00:16:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I was kind of always surprised by that. And Bono had this kind of poignant quote. He said he was like, you know, “I'm just an Irishman trying to give you some beautiful music.” Yeah. If you don't want it, I'm sorry, you know. That kind of thing and can't really feel bad for Bono and he was a good sport about it, but it's kind of funny that the way people's minds work, you know, it's like during the Napster era, it's like, oh, I got to go get all my music for free.[00:16:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I will seek it out to illegally download music. Right. And it'll take me an hour to download a song. And if somebody calls my mom on the landline, you know, it'll get interrupted halfway through, right? And then. Here comes U2 giving everybody a free album and they don't even have to do anything.[00:16:51] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And all these people are kind of grousing about it. So I thought that was sort of, you know, above all a really interesting commentary on like the human psyche and, you know, wanting what you can't have. Not wanting what you do. So pour one out for that as well. [00:17:05] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I mean, from my perspective, I was never upset about the album actually being there, if anything, it was more so than minor inconvenience of can I plug this device into the USB port for one second, without anything automatically playing, right? Like I also had this era where it was back from doing anything that I'd purchased on iTunes and Lady Gaga's Bad Romance would always play. So like once the U2 thing stopped, like that song always played in.[00:17:35] Dan Runcie: You want to hear about friends making fun of me and dragging me for that all day long. That was always a, a hilarious one, but no, this was good. Let's pour one out for the iPod, one of the most influential products we've seen. And as we both know, I think we talk about how so much innovation starts in music and this device is one of the best examples of that.[00:17:55] Dan Runcie: So salute to it. It had a, had a great run. And on that note, I actually think it's probably better for us to stay on the music topic and the streaming topic. And talk a bit about Spotify because this company, less than a year ago, well, maybe a little bit more than a year ago, they were signing so many of the big exclusive deals.[00:18:18] Dan Runcie: The Rogan deal was still fairly fresh and the stock was at an all-time high. And now this stock is at an all-time low, as of recording this, it's trading under a hundred dollars. Its market cap is under $20 billion. Daniel Ek just purchased 50 million himself to show confidence that he has in the company stock moving forward.[00:18:39] Dan Runcie: But where do you see all of this happening? I think there's a lot that's happening in the market right now that could be aligned with this, but there's a lot that could be separate from this. That could be a bit more specific to where Spotify currently is. What's your take on the current state of Spotify?[00:18:55] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think, like you say, there are these kinds of macro trends in the market, in the world that are kind of dragging down a lot of stuff. I think with Spotify though, what's going on is that people are freaking out about streaming in particular after that sort of big surprise, bad news from Netflix a little while ago, where they essentially admitted that the cap on, you know, paid streaming for them was 220 million people and that they were going to open up their free, you know, free or lower ad-supported tier. I forget if it was free tier with ads. I think it was just a lower price tier with ads. So yeah know the idea that, well, you know, it's all streaming and Spotify had been trying to emulate Netflix by paying all this money for content and you know, the Joe Rogan's of the world and podcasting and stuff.[00:19:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I get it on one hand, but, you know, there's a lot of fear right now in the public markets. And there's a lot of, sort of, you know, constellating of things, right. And yes, they're both streaming companies, but to me, you know, I take a step back and I look at it and I see two totally different companies. I mean, obviously one is primarily, you know, video, one's audio, but you know, the reason that Spotify works and the reason that Spotify became the market leader in audio streaming, it is essentially an unlimited buffet.[00:20:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Netflix was never an unlimited buffet. And you know, this, if you are somebody who has ever gone on Netflix to find a particular movie or something like I remember many years ago when I first got Netflix, I was like, oh, you know, I want to watch whatever it was. The latest James Bond movie. I'll go on here. It's like $9.99 a month, unlimited everything, right? No, they only have, you know, whatever move they have, all these Adam Sandler movies and they have, you know, just like a random smattering of movies. And of course they have all these shows, but you get Netflix because you want to watch certain shows, you know, or because you are somebody who's just like, I want to just put something on and I trust that they will have, yeah, I don't want to think about it. Like I trust that they will have good stuff and I'll put on one of their shows and you know, it's not cheaper than cable. So, you know, that to me was always a very different model. It is not an unlimited buffet of movies and television, you know, unlike terrestrial cable, where in theory, you know, you get your cable package.[00:21:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You can watch the news or you can watch sports. So you can, there's some crappy movies on, you know, there's like more of a promise of unlimited opportunity. So I think that, like, there was never a video streaming service that had the unlimited buffet kind of nature of Spotify. So, you know, I think that's what ultimately caps Netflix, like around that 220 million number. If there was some way that Netflix could totally replace your cable. And I know Hulu has live TV options, or if Netflix really did have, you know, a complete movie library that you could complete TV library, you can, anything you want. I think that there would be a lot more room to grow, but it's such an ordeal to get all the rights necessary to do that.[00:21:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I don't know how that would ever happen. And you certainly couldn't bankroll like every single thing in the future. That would be needed to have that kind of thing going on in perpetuity. So, yeah, I guess I just, I think that Netflix is dealing with this issue of like, sort of the unbundling and re-bundling and what people are treating Netflix as a sort of like a bundle, right? You want to maybe some other bundles, you probably don't just have Netflix, you have Netflix and Hulu, or maybe you even have terrestrial cable and Netflix or something like that. Whereas the Spotify, you have all of your music. I mean, what do you not get on Spotify? Or if it's Apple Music, what do you not get an Apple Music?[00:22:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think it's a little bit of the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. And I just think that the fundamental thesis is a little bit different when it comes to Spotify than it is with Netflix. So that's my 2 cents. [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. [00:22:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think that echoes what Daniel Ek had said himself. Right. He said, even though Spotify and Netflix are both subscription-based revenue companies that serve media on a regular basis to its content, that is where a lot of the similarities do stop. And even though there are points where I feel like Spotify and other streaming services, music streaming services, tried to replicate what Netflix did.[00:22:55] Dan Runcie: It was never going to be that way. And I think what makes the music streaming area a bit more unique is that because 80%, I'll probably even say 90% of the content that each of these services offer is largely the same. You end up inevitably having a price war at some point, once you've reached a certain level of distribution, and once you've reached a certain percentage of audience that you're reshaped, we're starting to see that happen.[00:23:20] Dan Runcie: Now you're starting to see that saturation. And I was recently talking to Will Page, the economist that studies this space. And his analogy was that for a long time, this was a herbivore market. People were capturing the opportunity that's there, we're shifting to a carnivore market, and in a lot of ways that does end up benefiting the companies that are the most willing to cut costs and the most willing to pivot. And if we're bringing things back full circle a bit to what we said about Apple Music earlier, this is not a product that they are necessarily trying to run at a profit. It's very similar to the Amazon Prime mentality of when Jeff Bezos has said, the more Golden Globes that we win, the more sneakers that we're able to sell through Amazon.[00:24:03] Dan Runcie: And I think the same could be said for Apple to some extent. They won best picture, CODA won best picture. That's their product that helps them get more subscribers who then end up purchasing the wide number of different products they have under their Apple TV+ bundle that they're able to offer there.[00:24:19] Dan Runcie: I do think with Spotify though, and this is why I do think they likely have more relative upside right now, I would say than Netflix, it's for two reasons. One, Spotify has had relatively better growth in the most recent quarters, I'd say, and that's even accounting for both services are ceasing their service in Russia.[00:24:37] Dan Runcie: It's also looking at them just being able to already have the free tier penetration, already having a pipeline to acquire more as well. And secondly, I think the podcasting model is ultimately what will help them. This was a model that I was initially skeptical about for years, just in terms of whether or not Spotify would be able to actually make it work and become the dominant player in audio.[00:25:01] Dan Runcie: But the reason that I think they're probably going to be better off is because of the actual data that they could offer both advertisers and listening and podcasters as well. And this is going back to opportunities that Apple didn't necessarily capture at the time, if you think about the fact that most podcasting is essentially just an RSS feed and a lot of people are sharing monthly podcast downloads and things like that.[00:25:25] Dan Runcie: And if you look at some of the podcasts, especially some of the ones that were most popular, 2016 when podcasts would really start to take off. A lot of those listeners may not necessarily be actively listening, like it could be background downloads. That's where Spotify wins, because they can actually have that clear data to show who's listening to what. They acquired two companies, Chartable and Podsights, that are both analyzing and having the better data in this space. So the, we're leading to a future where Spotify eventually is going to be able to, I think, dominate the space because they're able to make the better pitch to advertisers. Come here, get a more direct way to reach your audience.[00:26:03] Dan Runcie: And I think if the numbers do continue to grow, I think they will be better off. So of course this is not investment advice, to be clear for anyone. But I do think that between the two of these, that Spotify is probably the company that's in the better position. And it's funny cause this isn't always a, a thought that I would have had of course, two completely different business models.[00:26:22] Dan Runcie: Netflix is fixed. Spotify is variable, but I do think that over time, relatively speaking, it still has plenty of hurdles to get through, but it feels like that's where the opportunity is. [00:26:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. I think I totally agree with you there. [00:26:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I mean, with that, another piece that people have brought up as well as content as well. What are your thoughts on Netflix's content? Because I know that's a piece where people have often said, well, if you're just going to make shows, like, Is It Cake? and stuff like that, then why am I going to pay money for the service and the fact that they haven't necessarily had as many true franchises or any repeatable types of things.[00:27:00] Dan Runcie: In my opinion, a lot of the things that have taken off from Spotify have, or not from Spotify, from Netflix. Sometimes it almost feels like it's like flashes and bottles that catch off a bit unexpectedly, whether it's like a Bird Box or a Squid Game, or Making A Murderer, things like that. Like it doesn't have the same feeling of, okay, you don't, this big HBO show is going to come and dominate like it does.[00:27:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think Netflix has just done such a good job of going out and just acquiring tons and tons of content. Right. And, you know, given their model, they pay out a lot, you know, then people have been talking over the past, however many years, like, oh, Netflix spent X billion dollars on content.[00:27:41] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: How are they going to sustain it? But when you're acquiring that much stuff, it's like, you have all these lotto tickets and when something takes off, you know, I think in most cases you're not having to pay a lot of it back, you know, on the backend like you would with, you know, obviously Spotify ends up paying back, you know, a huge percentage of what comes in back to the labels and to the artists.[00:28:01] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that the model. Netflix, has there are sort of like a lot higher upside when something works? I mean, I guess with Spotify, they're trying to emulate that on the podcasting side, but you know, it would seem to me that when Netflix has, you know, a TV show that takes off just out of nowhere, I mean, something like Squid Game, the amount of new subscribers they sign up are just, you know, so much more than, than you'd get with a hit podcast. So, I mean, you know, in a way I think what I'm most curious to see is how much will Spotify continue to try to emulate Netflix. Now that Netflix is sort of in a, you know, questionable phase and do they just kind of, you know, try to double down on the music aspect because the other piece of it that we haven't talked about, you know, when you're going out and acquiring content and you were paying for it specifically like to have it named and everything you become, you know, an arbiter of culture and taste also, you know, right and wrong of what is hate speech of what is, you know, all kinds of things. And that's like a huge pain in the ass to figure out, right, as we learned with the whole Spotify, Joe Rogan, Neil young situation.[00:29:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And. Yeah. I never thought that Neil Young being off of Spotify was gonna ruin Spotify. And I don't really think very many people did, but you know, it did go to show that there's a, an amount of energy that has to go into defending some decisions once, once you are acquiring content versus sure, I mean, if you have artists on your platform and you know, they do something terrible, you may have to make a decision to try to pull them off. But, you know, I think generally as a society, we've moved away from pressuring people to sort of deplatform musicians for making, you know, offensive music or something like that, music that some people find offensive.[00:29:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And even for, you know, some of the most controversial musicians, you know, it's super rare that their music is pulled down. So I just think that there's a lot more editorial energy that goes into obviously Netflix, but, you know, Spotify emulating Netflix in the podcasting space, that becomes a whole new headache with like a lot of unknown unknowns.[00:29:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I do wonder now that it's, you know, perhaps less of a growth area. Will Spotify continue to follow that path? [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point. We had not touched on this piece of it. And I think that in a lot of ways it does mean it's more workforce, something like a company like Spotify. Netflix can pretty easily, at least I would hope so, identify the movies that have these issues, and we've already seen some of them have disclaimers, but there's a bit of a removedness from it because of just how they go about their deals versus Spotify. You just see the blind spots where someone that literally goes and finds all of the clips of Joe Rogan saying the N-word, putting that together.[00:30:38] Dan Runcie: And then that's what sparks the controversy. You would have hoped that the company themselves would have been looking at the content. And then it makes you think, are people really responding to the issue itself? By people, I mean, the company like Spotify, are they really responding to the issue itself or are they responding to the public outcry over the issue?[00:30:54] Dan Runcie: And that could, you know, be an ongoing conversation, but that's where I do think that there needs to be much more editorial oversight and understanding that if you are going to be, it's one thing to say that you're an open platform that anyone can put music on. Anyone can put, upload their music too, but when you're exclusively paying someone or licensing their content, it changes the dynamic of the relationship.[00:31:18] Dan Runcie: And I know that they try to make the distinction. Yes. we are licensing Joe Rogan's content as opposed to acquiring it. But the example I always bring back to people it's like, okay, well, let's explore that scenario then, let's say that this was Bill Simmons, who now works for Spotify because you acquired his company and we found those clips of him saying those things. Would you then have treated this situation differently? I don't know the answer to that situation, but Spotify is implying that they would, but I don't know. [00:31:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. It's a gray area. And the more you get into, the deeper you get into editorial, the less profitable it is, I say, as a journalist.[00:31:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that, you know, some of these companies are learning that the hard way. [00:31:58] Dan Runcie: Couldn't agree more. And while we're on the note of Spotify, let's switch gears again and let's talk about the current king of Spotify, right? Bad Bunny. It is been really cool, and refreshing to see an artist outside of the US dominate on a platform like this.[00:32:13] Dan Runcie: I think that his success has really shown what's possible now in a way, I think that he's the greatest success story of the streaming era. I really do. I mean, when you think about what he was able to do, where he was six years ago, I've written about it in a recent newsletter about how six years ago, he's bagging groceries at a local grocery store in Puerto Rico.[00:32:36] Dan Runcie: And then now he's a superstar. He was on stage at the Super Bowl. He's going to have this old Marvel movie, tops every chart possible. It's like that Kurt Warner underdog story from him starting off as a grocery bagger and then did his Arena Football. But imagine if Kurt Warner had the career of Peyton Manning and actually went on to, you know, dominate years and years, it's impressive. What do you think about Bad Bunny and what he's been able to do? [00:33:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Ah, I think it's incredible. I mean, and I think it also, it shows the democratization that has been brought about by streaming and what's that Jay-Z line? Men lie, women lie, numbers don't. And you know, you can have your charts for whatever publication and you can have all this and that and their formulas and stuff like that.[00:33:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, it's all very convoluted and, you know, it's, it's usually one way or the other. It's engineered to sort of favor the, those who are already sort of big names, but when you have the numbers, it shows up on Spotify and regardless of where you are on whatever other chart, I mean, the fact is that more people are listening to your music than they're listening to anybody else's music and it's objectively true. You can see it in Spotify and the numbers don't lie. And so Bad Bunny, I think, you know, was able to come up from, you know, in this incredible underdog story, you know, to get there and there's proof, right? I mean, there's proof in a way that there might not have been, you know, before the streaming era.[00:33:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think another thing about Bad Bunny that, you know, certainly in my time at Forbes, we would look, we've scoured the world to find and do our list of the top-earning musicians. And I did that list this past year for Rolling Stone, but, you know, it was just all old rockers selling their catalogs basically.[00:34:14] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think, you know, a function of that is that the pandemic has just greatly disrupted touring, which would kind of like traditionally be the thing that would get you up on one of these lists. And, you know, I think now that the pandemic is kind of easing up and tours are really starting to happen again, you know, we're seeing Bad Bunny be able to sell out stadiums, you know, I mean, he is really on that level in terms of, you know, people putting their money where their mouth is. So I think that next step is going to be, as we start to see these totals from his tour in combination, you know, with the streaming dollars and Marvel and all these other things that are going to come along with it, you know, he's going to start to climb up these earnings lists, you know, from a financial perspective as well.[00:34:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that adds a whole other level. You know, sort of like credibility in some cases, when looking at somebody as like a generational superstar, when they sort of have the, you know, the financial success to prove it and to sustain and to, you know, to expand into other fascinating ways. So I'm really curious to see what he does next.[00:35:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Like, you know, what's his Jay-Z move? What's his Puffy move? Is there going to be something in the spirits business or the cannabis or who knows what, but, you know, personally, as sort of a music business nerd, I'm especially interested to see, you know, what does he do with all this energy and momentum and you know, what direction does he take it in having created this incredible musical empire.[00:35:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's only a matter of time until he's going to top most of those lists, right? You look at the numbers that this tour will likely do. It's likely going to be over 2 or 3 million, if not more, just given the amount of shows that he has and the size of the arenas that he's performing in. And one of the things that I've always thought about with artists from other countries is that there's always been this stigma or thought that in order for them to monetize, it always had to rely much more on brand deals or things like that because the assumption was that the fan bases in these areas may not be willing to necessarily pay as much, but his tours are disproving that just based on the sales numbers, I would need to dig it a little bit further to see, okay, are the dollar amounts in all of the regions similar, but I think he's proving that that isn't necessarily the case. Yeah. If he does want to continue to take this further, what would it look like if he eventually let's say that he continues to do things with the WWE even further? Is he able to have some type of connection there to make that further extend, right? This Marvel character he's going to have in this upcoming movie is a wrestler. What could that potentially look like? If he ends up selling some type of, as you mentioned, some type of spirits or getting involved with something on the business side, the sky really is the limit.[00:36:52] Dan Runcie: And I think it's one of those unique optionality things where it's up to him and what stuck out to me as well as if we think, just think about his trajectory and what's possible now for a lot of Latin artists, is that he has not done one song in English. Everything that he's done is either been in Spanish or if he did it, then his verses is still in Spanish.[00:37:15] Dan Runcie: But everyone else is still doing their stuff in English. Like this song. Cardi B from a couple of years ago. But I do think that that's different from even the wave of Latin artists that got mainstream popularity. Let's say 20 years ago, you have Enrique Iglesias, your Mark Anthony or even JLo to some extent, they all had to do albums in English before they were ever given a consideration for that mainstream push or appeal.[00:37:41] Dan Runcie: Ricky Martin was the same exact way. And I think the fact that he's been able to do on his terms, he's been able to be an advocate as well for both gender norms and for just LGBTQ as well and how he has been just a lot of the causes and things that he cares about. It's really cool to see artists like this.[00:38:02] Dan Runcie: And I think in some ways the trajectory that Latin artists have been on, especially in the streaming era, kind of reminds me of where hip hop was at a certain point, right? It's like in the early days they wanted those artists to like assimilate to whatever the pop phase was, right? Like the rappers had to do these pop collaborations.[00:38:21] Dan Runcie: The Latin stars had to do the, you know, US pop star collaborations. Then once they prove they no longer have to assimilate in the same way, then those artists set the trends and now everyone else wants to come to them. And now we're seeing Billie Eilish and Drake and all these other artists doing songs in Spanish, even though that's not their main language, we're just going to see more and more of that.[00:38:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, and I think that one of the things that Bad Bunny has proven, you know, in some other form, is that if given the opportunity, you know, if you're not sort of, you know, forced to go meet the quote unquote US mainstream market, where it's at, the US mainstream market will actually come to you. You know, and people who don't understand Spanish will still love your music.[00:39:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, I mean, I don't know. I know a lot of songs in English that I don't understand. Whatever genre, if it's, you know, rock and there's a lot of yelling or if it's, you know, rap and it's like so fast or with like a really deep accent. I don't always catch on but, you know, people respond to music. I mean, it doesn't really matter what's being said, I mean, look at Nirvana, right? Like a lot of the lyrics didn't particularly mean anything, but people just responded to the music and the vibe, the whole thing. So even if you can understand the words, people are going to be attracted to the music. And, you know, I think that he's showing that that holds true even on the tip-top superstar level for sure.[00:39:38] Dan Runcie: A hundred percent. Excited to see where his career goes, excited to see where he continues to dominate. [00:39:43] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen to that. And, you know, if have his management too, I'm trying to get him in some consumer-facing startups, because if you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and they know that the market is cooled down at it, but still, you know, you're in a really mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music, investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that has, especially if you're trying to get into Spanish language market. It's untoppable. And I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too, so. [00:40:12] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, I'm sure. It should be. All right. Before we wrap this up, we got to talk about this article that you had written very recently about, we're both fellow Yankees fans, and one of the stars we've been most familiar with over the years, Robinson Canó, and you have this idea that you were brought up. I thought it was really interesting and I want for you to talk more. Did Jay-Z ruin Robinson Canó bag? [00:40:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I kind of posed that question on my Substack and, you know, I think going into it and that the background,I'm going to set the background for anybody who maybe isn't a Yankee fan, but I guess it was eight years ago, Robinson Canó, who at the time was the best player in the Yankees.[00:40:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Everybody thought he was going to resign. He was a free agent. Everybody thought he would come back, think they he's never lose out on a free agent. Jay-Z comes in, takes over as his agent from Scott Boras, who was like, you know, he is to baseball agency as Jay-Z is to hip hop. Jay-Z comes in, gets Canó to come over to Roc Nation, Roc Nation brings on CAA to help them, you know, kind of become, you know, Scott Boras-level players in the game, let's say, and you know, Robinson Canó gets offered seven years, $161 million by the Yankees and the months drag on, nobody else is offering him more. Everybody thinks Jay-Z is getting greedy.[00:41:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then just out of nowhere, Canó goes to the Mariners for 240 million over 10 years and great deal financially for him. Obviously, it's, you know, like $80 million more than Yankees we're offering and no state income tax in Washington. However, a much worse team, a much worse ballpark for hitters and, you know, five years into the 10-year deal could no, I mean, I think that was when he got suspended for steroids, then he got traded to the Mets.[00:42:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then he got suspended again last year, 80 games. And he started out this year with the Mets and just earlier this week got cut. And so here's this guy who, you know, so I guess that's my question. If he'd stayed with the Yankees, would all of, all of these miseries have befallen him and should we blame Jay-Z for the misery?[00:42:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think my answer ultimately is, is no, you know, It's going to retire almost a hundred million dollars richer, eventually. From a baseball perspective though, you can argue that things would have been better for him if he'd stayed with the Yankees. And as it turns out, the guy who really kind of led the charge and I reported this in the latest edition of my Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind, the guy who led the charge for Canó to leave was Brodie Van Wagenen at CAA who then became the GM of the Mets. Traded for Canó, got fired by the new owner of the Mets and is now back working with Jay-Z. And I think working on, on representing Canó again, as he tries to, to latch on with another major league team.[00:43:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So you could kind of blame him, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it really does come down to the player, you know, who makes the decision to take bag, you know, instead of glory, which is, you know, defensible, I think you've got to live and you only have so long to be a professional ballplayer. And, you know, he was the one that took the performance-enhancing drugs, got suspended so, but it is this just sort of like a fascinating winding road, you know, from this decision that happened eight years ago, that's still playing out, that still had all these ramifications. And you look back to that deal. I mean, you know, the fact that Jay-Z, whether it was Jay-Z or CAA, or this guy, Brodie Van Wagenen doing most of the work.[00:43:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Jay-Z, Roc Nation did get credit. And after that you saw Roc Nation really become much more of a force as a professional sports agency. So, you know, certainly, Jay-Z did well for himself in those past eight years. He's a billionaire now. Brodie Van Wagenen has this great new job, and Robinson Canó has that much nicer retirement eventually.[00:43:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So maybe he lost a chance at eternal glory, but you know, a hundred million dollars is a lot of money. I don't know. Dan, what do you think? [00:44:04] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because I've always thought that his career was definitely into replay. I felt like it was typical timing of, okay, this guy's turning 30 and that could be hit or miss for a lot of baseball players, depending on how well they're able to take care of themselves and stay out of injury thing.[00:44:18] Dan Runcie: The one thing though, and this is a part that I do think gets overlooked sometimes is the ballpark difference. Yankee Stadium, especially in the new Yankee stadium, literally engineered in some ways to get more home runs and just have more, especially more than the old Yankee stadium compared to T-Mobile Park in Seattle, before it was Safeco park, historically picture friendly ballpark.[00:44:41] Dan Runcie: So if you know what you're getting yourself into, I mean, outside of Griffey and A-Rod in the nineties. I can't necessarily think of people that really like, oh yeah. You know, they cleaned up there. Maybe, you know, you had some early, I'm trying to think of some of the other stars who may have like, done well they're from like a home run hitting perspective, but it's one of those things where you think about the trade-off, right? It's. to some degree, it kind of makes me think about Carmelo Anthony with the Knicks, right? It's like you went to that team, you did get paid and you ended up getting, you know, later on a Supermax. But I think a lot of the decisions that he made show that he was prioritizing more of the money that came through, as opposed to the decisions, why not wait until free agency to then join that team instead of making them all those picks for you. [00:45:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly.[00:45:31] Dan Runcie: And in some ways, yeah, I think about the Canó thing, that kinda kind of similarly, right. If you want it to continue to win and you didn't care as much about the money that you would have stayed in New York, but to our point, yeah. You get it a hundred million dollars is a lot, of course, but it's hard to have both, especially with the franchise, in my opinion, that they'll have spurts of having great players here and there, but they haven't necessarily been able to prove that winning this, that Canó was raised in.[00:45:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, and Canó is going to finish up and, you know, even now it looks like he may, he's probably going to catch on with another team, at least for the rest of the year, but he's, I think at 2,600, a little over 2,600 hits for his career, if he had been able to get to 3000, which I think in New York with a better lineup that turned over more, he gets more best, more opportunities to hit.[00:46:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: There 's a better ballpark for hitters. So more fly balls turn into home runs. It's pretty likely, he would've gotten to 3000 hits or that he'd be within shouting distance of it. Now with, you know, a little more time to go. There has never been a major league baseball player who got 3000 hits who did not end up in the hall of fame once eligible, except for the steroid guys and Pete Rose, who was thrown out of the game for betting on baseball. So it is like an automatic ticket to the hall of fame. So if he had just stayed at Yankee stadium, not done, you know, not on steroids, I think he would have gotten there. No question. And you know, who knows, I mean, seven years into that deal that he would have been what, 37, maybe. You never know if he was still hitting well, they might've brought him back for another year or two. God knows they kept bringing Brett Gardner back. So I do think he would've gotten a few thousand hits and had a really good shot at the hall of fame. And is that worth a hundred million dollars though?[00:47:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. He did have such a sweet swing though, man. Watching him play in the Yankees stadium. That was always fun. [00:47:25] Dan Runcie: He did it. He was exciting to watch. He had a great career and yeah, I think that's a great note for us to close out with this. Zack, we've covered a bunch in this pod, but basically, we'll have to have another roundup again at some point soon, but thanks for doing this. This is fun.[00:47:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: For sure. Thanks as always.[00:47:41] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post in your group chat, post in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people.[00:47:56] Dan Runcie: And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

3.3 million followers on Facebook. Over 423 million views on YouTube. 4.2 million TikTok likes.Bigg Jah (real name Jahdai Pickett) has put up those gaudy social media numbers with no studio or agency backing and a relatively small team. The do-everything entertainer — who can write, act, direct, produce, and everything in between — has been posting content online almost nonstop for the past five years, doing what he calls “hood good comedy.” It’s all paying dividends now.  He’s built a synergy map that extends past his wildly popular social media franchises like “Inner Thoughts” and “The Lesbian Homie.” There’s also merch (with a new piece dropping almost every month) and with the world re-opening, perhaps comedy shows again.  Next, Bigg Jah is trying to parlay his massive social media success into feature films. He originally studied film in college and planned to take the traditional route into the industry — shooting a short film, winning movie festivals, and signing with an agent. But the rise of social media gave Bigg Jah an alternative AND independent route into the business.You’ll want to listen to my interview with Bigg Jah to get more insight into his creative process and meteoric rise on social media. Here’s everything we covered in this Trapital episode:[3:14] What Does “Hood Good Comedy” Mean?[5:36] Lasting Impact Of 90s Comedy Movies [7:36] Navigating Different Entertainment Mediums (Social Media, Film, Comedy)[11:49] Being Forced To Go The Independent Creator Route[14:59] Acting Vs. Directing Vs. Writing[18:18] How Bigg Jah Chooses What Type Of Content To Make[21:06] What’s Behind Bigg Jah’s Success On Facebook?[23:19] How Bigg Jah Has Leveraged Other Social Networks[26:25] Bigg Jah’s Revenue Breakdown[29:05] The Struggles Of Creator Burnout [33:56] The Key To Bigg Jah’s Success [43:55] Upcoming Projects For Bigg Jah[45:44] How To Follow Bigg JahListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Bigg Jahh, @biggjah Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Bigg Jah: I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this?[00:00:15] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that.[00:00:36] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.[00:00:56] Today's guest is Bigg Jah. He's an actor creator, filmmaker, comedian, and one of the funniest people on the internet, I was first put onto Bigg Jah's work because I got to know Damien Ritter, shout out to Dame. He used to run Funk Volume, and he's now chief operating officer at BeatStars, but he also manages Jah.[00:01:16] And Jah is someone who I think has definitely been one of the more successful, independent creators that I've seen being able to leverage social media, to grow his platform. And now accrue millions of followers on Facebook. And on YouTube. And we talk a lot about how he's built his career. He's someone that first went to school to study film and how he transitioned eventually to wanting to be the person behind the camera.[00:01:43] But realizing that there was a lot of value from him being the person in front of the camera as well. And that's when things really started to take off for him. And we talked about how he approached his comedy, some of the most successful franchises and series that he's had and his bigger ambitions to still be able to do more motion pictures, and do more stuff behind the scenes.[00:02:02] And we talked a lot as well about just how much of a grind it can be for creators to always produce content nonstop and how that's what the algorithms ultimately want you to do. And that's definitely something that I can relate to. I know a lot of people listening to this can relate to as well. [00:02:17] We also talked about how he looks at running his business, what his team looks like. And so much more, if you are interested in the different levels of the creator economy, there is this essay that I wrote a couple of months back, that overlooked levels of the creator economy. And I talked a lot about the success at each stage.[00:02:34] Jah was one of the people that was featured and mentioned in that article. So I definitely recommend you check that out and Pete this episode, because I think that anyone that. The landscape. You're trying to love a love determine. When do you partner with other companies when you don't? This is the episode for you I had a great chat with him.[00:02:51] Hope you enjoyed it. Here's my conversation with Bigg Jah. [00:02:55] All right. Today we got the one and only Bigg Jah. He's a comedian, an actor, a filmmaker himself. Jah, welcome to the [00:03:02] Bigg Jah: Thank you for having me, bro. Appreciate it. [00:03:05] Dan Runcie: Hey, I've always been a big fan of you, how you've built up your platform, not just on social media, but through touring and putting everything out there.[00:03:14] And one of the things that stuck out to me is your brand. You've referred to yourself as putting out hood good comedy. Can you talk more about that and what that means? [00:03:23] Bigg Jah: Yeah, man, have a good comedy, bro. Is this I'm from the hood, bro. Hood good means good things come out of the hood, and I'm one of them. So it's just sometimes you being from the hood or growing up in that environment.[00:03:36] It's humble beginnings, tough times. Things that a lot of people wouldn't want to go through, but if you're from here and you grew up this way and you end up, you turn out good, you turned out. Okay. I loved my, I love my upbringing. I love even the hard times. Yeah, it's almost like making lemonade out of lemons..[00:03:52] You know what I'm saying? So it's hood good comedy. A lot of the times, the stuff I like to talk about or display on camera are things that if you're from the hood, you can relate to, you don't even have to be from the hood to relate to it. But for sure if you're from the hood. You can relate to it. You know what I'm saying?[00:04:07] That's kind of what I make it for everybody, but I make it for specifically, for folks in the hood, [00:04:12] Dan Runcie: And I think what helps you as well as that, of course, there's a lot of black content that is out there now with Netflix and all these other streaming services. You're able to tell stories and talk about things that aren't going to get covered in those spaces.[00:04:25] And I think that just shows that even though people may think that there's this abundance of content, that's everywhere. Now, you're telling stories through your comedy and through your sketches that you know are not going to get told elsewhere. So you have a good niche for yourself there. [00:04:40] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Thank you, bro.[00:04:41] It took me a minute to do it consistently. I've always wanted to do this type of stuff, this type of content, but growing up, watching Martin, you know, the Jamie Fox show or the woods, Don't Be a Menace to Society, all those different shows and movies, Harlem Nights, Eddie Murphy, like Boomerang.[00:05:01] Those films definitely influenced me into doing what I do now. And so I feel like you watch Friday that Friday show the movie Friday is specifically for the hood. Anybody could like it. Anybody can find value in it and find humor in it, but for sure the hood is going to love it because it's exactly where we come from.[00:05:18] It tells the story, it tells our story. When I had the opportunity to do that, I wanted to do the same. [00:05:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And those movies you mentioned, and the TV shows too, they all hit this error that I feel like a lot of us grew up with that we saw on TV, right? The nineties had such a Renaissance for not just black entertainment, but comedy too.[00:05:36] I mean, thinking about even you mentioning the way, a lot of people may not think about that as a traditional comedy, but it's a coming of age story. Everyone remembers what it's like going to prom or going through any of those experiences. [00:05:48] Bigg Jah: For me, for sure. A hundred percent for that boy. It was it's funny because I remember going through almost every single thing in that movie I experienced as a kid growing up.[00:05:57] So yeah, that's why the woods is a classic for me. I would love to create something like that for myself, for the people in other versions of. The Hood Good stories and stuff like that. So, yeah. [00:06:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because now we're in this space where they're starting to make sequels of all those right. Cause best man came out right around the same time as the wood and that best man holiday.[00:06:19] And I think I saw something they're trying to put out another one of these know [00:06:23] Bigg Jah: that series is dope. I think that cast is so strong. They can do a part three and as long as it's just that. And then the next thing someone else is getting married or someone's going through a divorce, or if someone's having a baby shower or something, I think you can do more, are turned into a TV show or something about that.[00:06:39] Cash is so dope. I think, I think a baby could do it. And I think all the actors in that movie wouldn't mind doing the series. You know what I'm saying? Because they all doing their thing, but I'm sure that'd be a great opportunity for them to really get back on camera together and consider. [00:06:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things about your career that I think is a bit more unique from maybe that generation of stars is they very much were trained to perfect how they were on screen, right.[00:07:08] They're either going to be in TV or in movies. Your career's a little different because you have to. Be a face on social media, you're doing your stand-up. You have your specials, your movies, and then even your own touring. And I got to imagine that there was a bit of maneuvering there between each of those areas.[00:07:25] You're not trying to get pigeonholed, but you also know that you need to have exposure in each of those. What has it been like navigating each of those areas, but knowing that they're all part of how you run and do what you do [00:07:36] Bigg Jah: It's still a challenge. it's lovely. It's a beautiful struggle, man. That's crazy.[00:07:40] Cause I went to film school to learn how to make films. And then I started doing comedy. Then I went and did comedy. I started pursuing comedy when I moved back to LA. And I was trying to make it as a comic, still trying to make it as a comic and, you know, get on tours, open up for different comics, get the, be, become a stronger comic, get my hour going.[00:08:04] And it was moving by the snail's pace. I was growing as a comic. But I just wasn't professionally growing as a comic. And then it dawned on me, like once I started reaching back and grabbing my film information, my film degree, and working on films and sketches and just doing content like that, it took my comedy and it boosted it.[00:08:23] And then fast forward, a lot of things are, are, I wouldn't say fast-forwarded. I think it brought me up to speed with my comedy, you know, because the biggest thing about comedy, no matter how funny you are, if you can't get butts on the seats. No one cares, you know, promoters don't care and you don't care either.[00:08:38] If you throw a show and no one comes then you don't really have a show. Cause you probably still gonna perform. But you know, it's just being a filmmaker and a comedian at the same time allows me to A. Interchange both. So if I think of a funny sketch, a lot of the time I'll put that sketch on stage and talk about the sketch as the comedy bit.[00:08:58] But most of my sketches come from comedy. Anyhow, come from my stage work. So I have a joke about certain things word plays. The whole crew is stupid, came from a joke on stage. The lesbian homie came from a joke on stage, you know? Yeah, man. So I think it worked in my favor at first. I was doing one or the other.[00:09:15] Now I'm doing both, you know, so [00:09:17] Dan Runcie: yeah. And I figured what that, to each of these, it gives you an opportunity to just get that quick feedback. You can then turn that into however you're going to make the actual longer form content itself. You put something on social media, you see the engagement, that's your feedback.[00:09:32] You're doing something on tour. You see how the crowd reacts. You see, okay. There are differences with the crowd in this city versus that city. And then each of those things I'm sure gives you the confidence. You'd be like, okay, if we're going to spend several weeks or several months putting this project together.[00:09:47] I know this is going to hit because of what I saw from the responsible people. [00:09:51] Bigg Jah: Right? True. Yeah. The social media is great for that, you know, instantly whether or not it is funny or not, or you can find out instantly whether it's funny or not. And even if you don't find it, that it's funny right away doesn't mean it's not funny.[00:10:04] I refuse to believe. Social media is the only way to gauge whether a joke is funny or not. It's a good way because the people laughing at me and it's funny. And what I'm saying, if people don't laugh, I mean, they're not laughing yet in my opinion, but yeah. So I navigated through both, you know, stand up comedy, sketch comedy, and then I'm moving on to feature films.[00:10:23] Eventually that's the goal. That's the immediate goal, you know? So yeah.[00:10:27] Dan Runcie: let's talk more about that immediate goal. People could probably look at your career from outside it and be like, oh, he's killing it independently. He's doing his thing. He has things in motion and you've definitely hit one of those higher levels of being someone that has their platform and being able to just do bigger things with it.[00:10:47] But you're still like, no, you want to be able to do the feature films and you want to be able to do bigger, bigger things. Can you talk about that? The difference there, because I know. There was likely a stage maybe from where you may have been several years ago, where the point you're at now would have been like, oh, this is where I really want to be able to get to.[00:11:04] Right. And then now it's about what it looks like for that next level of being able to do more motion pictures. [00:11:13] Bigg Jah: And so my goal was to, in a perfect world, create a film, enter into a film festival when it wins several film, festivals, booking agent, you know what I'm saying? That, and then getting to the point where I'm in a position to create, write and direct my own films.[00:11:29] And that's the typical way I believe, you know, but then this thing called social media came and it took me a while to really buy into it. That's what changed my world and my mindset. A lot of the time I was trying to be an employee. I was trying to be a writer for sketch comedy network or a writer for Fox or writer for ADD or something like that.[00:11:49] So I was trying to pitch me. I was pitching myself to, you know, what the funny was back in the day, which is the Waynes Brothers and whatnot that was sitting in the offices, just trying to say, oh, look at the sketch. I did look at this, read my script. And no one really took hold of it. No one really long story short note, and everyone said, no, they didn't say no. No, we not going to mess with you, but they didn't hire me.[00:12:10] They didn't put me in a position in their company to thrive or just become a team player. So eventually I got to the point where I was like, I got to do this myself. And so let me start a page from scratch, put my name on it and started making them for the first sketch and the second sketch and the third and fourth and keep it going as opposed to, because most of my sketches, especially in the first year, Most of my sketches were sketches that I wrote for ADD or for other platforms.[00:12:35] And there was a rifle with me at first, you know, and so a shout out to them. I said, I know a lot of people over there and so I love it. But, it was a blessing in disguise me not like selling my, my scripts over there or getting hired to be a director over there, forced me into doing my own thing. And I'm much rather we would be doing this than anything else.[00:12:54] So, uh, the feature film thing. I also still want to state, I would love to be independent, an independent filmmaker that makes what I want to make. And at the times, and the pacing that I wouldn't make it. But my goal was to always make films and TV. So I went to school for that.[00:13:09] And when I came across social media, it was, it's not, I would say it's a step back, cause it's not, it's a step across. It's another way of getting to where I want to go. And it took me some years to figure that out. But, uh, I did so myself putting sketches or sort of spending months of making a short film or many months trying to make a feature and trying to get the funding for, to produce a feature or short.[00:13:34] let me just take this camera that I have and my equipment that I already have and start shooting the small vignettes. So small sketches cause people doing anyways, small sketches and it's keep doing that until something happens and something happened. It was a fan base and a fan base is the most important thing to any entertainer.[00:13:51] Singer writer, poet offer dancer. You build a fan base. That's the most important thing, in my opinion. Because at that point you have people who love what you do, you know, and you don't need, you don't need a producer or a studio to say yes to do what you want to do. I can move right now by myself.[00:14:09] And it took me a while to get to this point. It's a blessing that people do, like what I do, and they do support. Like I said, it's, it's way more gratifying than making someone else's dream come true.[00:14:20] Dan Runcie: It's powerful, especially to be able to do it on your own. And you saw it, it was like you tried to break out initially and they weren't feeling it at first, but now that you have a bit more clout and leverage, you can do the same thing yourself.[00:14:34] And in that space, I'm sure it's a bit of this distinction where you're wearing multiple hats. You're the lead person as the comic and the creator and the face of the brand. You also want to be the filmmaker, the person that can direct and put everything together. Do you feel as if people are always seeing you in that light or do you feel like you may have to remind people?[00:14:55] No. No. I'm also interested in this other aspect as well.[00:14:59] Bigg Jah: As far as acting and producing and directing. Okay. So one thing I will say this, when I will create different things, whether it was a short film or, or just a piece of content, a lot of the time I was writting it and I was directing it and I was shooting it, and that was getting other actors.[00:15:15] To begin it and building it that way. And no one really out would put it online. Nobody would really follow it or watch it. And maybe because it was just too soon, then back in 2017, I decided, let me put myself on camera, have someone from me doing all the funny stuff I'm writing for other people. Let me do, let me do the funny stuff.[00:15:32] And that was already an actor. I have an agent and I've been acting since 2009. So it was not like I was just a director writer. I was after as well, but I didn't care when it came to my projects, I was seeing other people play these roles. And I was working under the hat of writer director. And then it got to the point where, all right, you can't really rely on people, especially when you have no money and limited resources and limited time.[00:15:56] So you have to start doing things yourself. And so I said, okay, cool. I'm gonna have to find somebody who rocks with me, who cares about what I do and asked him to shoot me, just hold the camera, push record and just make sure it's steady and I'm going in front of the camera and then I'm going to be the funny, and that's when things start picking up, that's when things took off.[00:16:12] So to answer your question about reminding people that are, yeah, I mean, honestly, I would love to, as much as I love being in front of a camera and telling jokes and being funny and being silly. I would love to just write and direct sometimes, sometimes to where it's a project that's produced by me directed by me, but I don't have to be the lead star.[00:16:32] I can just literally sit back and direct the actors and make some dope. So eventually I put on, get into. I think this year, the remainder of this year, I'm wanting to start putting more projects together where I'm not the focal point, but it's the focal point is where people come to see at this point, it's me.[00:16:48] So I would love to get to the point where people would love just to see my content, whether I'm in front of the camera or the main character or not, they just are interested in seeing what I put in. So that's the goal. [00:16:59] Dan Runcie: That reminds me of something I heard recently from Quinta Brunson from Abbott Elementary.[00:17:04] She had said when she was first pitching the show, she actually did even have herself as the lead in the role. And then the people that at ABC were like, ah, we didn't buy this project without you in this. Like you have to be in this. So it was interesting to hear her experience through that. And I think similarly with you, it'd be interesting to see what.[00:17:24] Continues to do a backpack. Cause I do think that there's this thing where yes, what people may most respond to is seeing the person they're most familiar with. But as the thing expands and grows, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. And I think one of the ways that you've done that, and I think it continue through is that you do have consistent series throughout your content.[00:17:45] You have the lesbian Hovey, you have inner thoughts and some of these. Sketches. And I think in a lot of ways, these are the franchises that you have under your umbrella. And in thinking about that piece, do you ever think about the balance of content, whether you want to continue making shows in those series because you know how popular they are versus tried new series out and doing things, how much do you balance the content play between what you know is already proven versus testing new things?[00:18:18] Bigg Jah: Honestly, I will say over the years, I've gotten more comfortable with this. I've been going back and forth. I've been going, like, for example, when I first did my first big project I did, or my first sketch that really did numbers and really got me some notice was Tiberius, The Hood Man. And then that kind of spread fast and it was going to share it a lot.[00:18:38] And I was like, man, this is dope. And so I did another one. I did a part two. Then I got like an episode three. and episode four and I kept going. I was like, all right, let me fall back and not just do this one character, this one type of a piece of content. Let me do something different. I'm coming to, that was my second, like non-sequitur series.[00:18:56] You know what I'm saying? It just, it was just episode for episode here and there, but I was doing that. So that was a totally different room. It was still Hood Good, but it was, I was a different type of character in Tiberius. I'm this big Debo type character in the I'm coming to.[00:19:08] I'm like this big guy too. You can't hide my size, but pause, but you can. My lady is the bully. My lady is the one punking me and stuff like that. So that was like a two different dynamics there. And, it did well. And then moved on. So I forget the next one. I think that might've been lesbian the next one, but then the whole crew was stupid.[00:19:26] I keep trying to, I was still doing episode one, two and three of this series, one, two, and three of that series. And I was adding on the whole crew was stupid. My inner thoughts, the roommate pays all the bills I kept doing. So I don't have a problem with doing something new because I feel like. I feel like if I'm blessed enough to make these go to the next project, the next different ideas will go to, you know, so that's what I mean about like, yeah.[00:19:48] I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this?[00:20:04] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that.[00:20:25] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.[00:20:28] Yeah. And that follows with what you said earlier in terms of if you're only doing things for the response. You're not taking into account that some things may not take off on social media, but that doesn't mean that they're not funny. It could be the algorithm doing whatever it's doing that day. You still got to have the confidence in what you're putting out that it's good, and that people are going to resonate with that truth.[00:20:50] One of the other things too, that stuck out to me is that Facebook has been a pretty big channel for you in terms of where you have had a lot of your audience on social media, where there's been a lot of the growth that attraction there. But I also know that Facebook hasn't always been the easiest platform[00:21:06] For a lot of creators to be able to navigate, even though they have the biggest user base out of anyone, how have you been able to make the platform work for you [00:21:15] Bigg Jah: Well, let me start by saying shout out to Facebook. Facebook has been amazing. It's been a blessing for sure. And I agree with you. They're not the easiest to navigate through. If I had to critique them, which I would say they, the customer service needs to be much better.[00:21:29] Their customer. I think for someone like myself and others, We should have a little bit more love. We should get a little bit more love from them. A little bit more support from Facebook on the do's and don'ts and more and more clarity, you know, and I think that it should be more, we should be handled better, to be honest with you, as far as how that helped my channel go.[00:21:48] And for me, a hundred percent honest with you, I've never strategized. I literally just. I do all the work on my end and I post I don't and well, I will say I do have times where I will. I do strategize in the sense, I will say I'm going to post every day between eight and 10 o'clock 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. I don't post in the evening time that I posted in the morning and I'm on the west coast.[00:22:10] So if it's. Here in the morning and in LA was 11 o'clock in the morning in New York. So it's still morning. And I posted that. I've been doing that for years. So, and because I'm not really clear on what to do and what not to do with Facebook, it's not very clear. I just do me and hopefully, it works.[00:22:29] So, uh, I do have some hangups here and there, but for the most part, I've been pretty successful as far as getting my content out and they're being overloaded. [00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's interesting because especially at your level, having millions of followers on the platform and through your page as well, having some type of custom service for someone at your level would make a lot of sense.[00:22:50] Cause I know that that's something that is existing on a lot of the other platforms. And to your point, I don't think any of these platforms have necessarily been perfect. They're always having challenges, but some of them have been more catering to others, but yeah, it's been fascinating to see. With that after Facebook, which other platform would you say has been the most beneficial for you?[00:23:11] I know where your followers are, but more from your perspective, which one have you enjoyed? Both from an engagement and a performance perspective? [00:23:19] Bigg Jah: Believe it or not. YouTube was my first platform that really no Instagram Instagram was where I started putting my one minute videos on my 15-second videos on the first 15 second videos.[00:23:29] And then they gave us a minute. I started doing one minutes pieces of work. And then I started going on YouTube and then Facebook, YouTube IG, and then Facebook. IG and Facebook at the same time, I think they're together. At least they are now, but I didn't see much. I didn't get that much love on Facebook initially.[00:23:47] It was, most of my success was coming on IG and I think maybe because it's more personal, it's closer. It's right there in your hand. And it's just a little bit more popular than Facebook and YouTube. Ideas, but I started there and then I started really focusing on YouTube first. And then you then Facebook started coming along strong.[00:24:06] And so now I will say Facebook and YouTube, but then IG as far as my success, Tik Tok is there as well. I'm not as strong on Twitter as I should probably be, but it's whether it was there, but mostly. Facebook is my biggest platform. Then YouTube, in this instance, Tik Tok actually, then there's YouTube, then there's Instagram.[00:24:25] So Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. Those are my four biggest platforms and Facebook and YouTube are my biggest. Yeah, [00:24:32] Dan Runcie: it's interesting because I do think that for. Anyone that is creating content using platforms. There's normally going to be a few that you gravitate the most to, for what your strengths are and where you think works the best for you.[00:24:45] And I think in past interviews you had talked Vine saying like, Hey, there's certain people that are good with six seconds, but that just didn't necessarily work for what I was working with. But. When IG had expanded you at 15 and then 30 seconds of the whole mini you're like, all right, bet.[00:25:01] This is exactly where I need to be. And I think even Twitter, to some extent with that, right? I think that Twitter probably is something that leaves itself a bit more to people reacting to whatever the current thing is. And I don't necessarily look at your comedy in that type of way. Right. So I do feel like you've definitely found the places where you can perform the best and where your audience.[00:25:24] The other question that I had for you though, was around given everything that you do with what you do on social media, what you may do on tour as well. For other people that may be looking at you or where you're at at least independently, what are the rough breakdowns of where your revenue comes from in terms of, from touring, you know, versus other areas.[00:25:45] And it doesn't need to be like specifics more so from a percentage perspective, but how you run the business and where you expect things to come from. [00:25:53] Bigg Jah: Well, my biggest income, my biggest sources of revenue are from Facebook and YouTube. And then any given month, it would be merch and or brand deals like sponsorships.[00:26:04] So Facebook and YouTube. And then depending on if I have a shirt that I'm selling or has a shirt that people really like. Or as a piece of it is a hat or some type of piece of clothing that I have that people really like at that, I try to come up with something every month or something like that. So depending on the month, it could be, my third revenue could be merch or it could be sponsorships depending on if I, I landed a deal with a brand, with a company and they want to, you know, get this product promoted and they pay me this amount of money.[00:26:31] So it could be brand deals, which are very important too. Especially if your brand deal fits. If it really working and be creative, you can keep that relationship going for awhile for a long time. And that's the goal is to get a working relationship with these, with these companies and let them confide in you and you respect what they do, where they're doing and what they're willing to give and you, and what you're willing to give as far as your expertise and your talent and stuff like that.[00:26:55] And hopefully I'll come to an agreement and get it going for that for the longterm. So I will say merch then brand deals or sometimes brand deals then merch YouTube and Facebook or my business platforms. [00:27:07] Dan Runcie: Where does touring fit into that? [00:27:08] Bigg Jah: I haven't toured the 2019. So 2019. This is before the pandemic that it fit in there.[00:27:13] It was good. I had a great time. I loved the tour. My goal was to go back on tour in 2020. I was going to go into every year, but pandemic hit and 2020 was a blur. It was a down year. I caught COVID before the lockdown. I called it before the lockdown. I was in bad shape and then I got better and then it was still, the city was unlocked.[00:27:33] So no one was going anywhere. Then people started touring. But at this point I got to get back to the shooting. That's the other thing is the balancing the two, going back to that first question. I know the first couple of questions you asked about navigating between like comedy, standup comedy and filmmaking and sketch comedy.[00:27:49] The creating it's tough when you. One thing about sketch comedy, our social media creation, it's different from TV and movies because there's off seasons in TV and movies, you can really make movies all year round. Yes. But like with this pilot season, there's like, especially for TV. There's off seasons.[00:28:08] You know, sometimes the city of Hollywood shuts down for a few months, a year, right during the holidays and whatnot as a social content creator, social media content creator. There's no off days. Really, really you have a lot of times you find yourself I'm victim to it too. And it's like racing against the algorithm.[00:28:25] That's the problem. We don't have a network deal where you're getting paid this amount of money to create this. Then, you know, everything's set in stone. You're good. Come to work, do your work. And the season is wrapped. You go do something else. You go to another project and are you going on vacation with social media content creation, you have to create your own vacation and it's tough, but then you look at your numbers.[00:28:45] You look at your pages and your pages. Aren't really going because you're not putting content. That'd be because you're taking a break. It's hard to take a break. Yes. That's one of the biggest challenges I've been any social media creator feels and really relates to like, yeah, that's something that I think everybody can relate to and the constant need, or once our pressure to create.[00:29:05] Social media. It never gets tired of you, or they might get tired of you, but they'll never like they ask enough, they want more, this gets, it's funny. What's next? You know, when the TV show, you know, you got 13 episodes, 10 episodes, and then you got to wait for the off season for them to reshoot some stuff.[00:29:22] And then get back to showing your season two, season three, season four, with episode, whether it was social media content. Hey Jah. That was funny. Hilarious. When's the next case coming? When's the next Lesbian Homie. When's the next Roommate Pays All the Bills. When's the next, you know, Tiberius And then once those down, [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: it's a grind.[00:29:37] It is, I could speak to that myself and the algorithms don't know you want to take PTO, right? They're not going to be favorable to you when you come back and that's what can make it so tough with it. And I'm sure for you, that's probably a lot of. Thought behind wanting to eventually shift to being less the main person in front of the camera and do a more behind the camera, because then that just frees up a bit more of your time to still be able to leverage what you created, but not need to be as on-demand. .[00:30:06] Bigg Jah: I don't mind it. I love acting. I love creating and I love being in front of the camera, but at the same time, I feel like I could be, I could be even more effective all this love. I see other, I see a lot of talent around me that might not get the recognition unless they're in my video. I'm the, it's my video.[00:30:22] I'll create a storyline and I pull them into the storyline and try to showcase them. And tried to show how talented he or she is and show that to, hopefully they can build their own following off of it or continue building their following. A lot of them already have a following, but they wanna increase it.[00:30:37] So a lot of times I have to take them and put them in my video for them to get as much known as, as they want to get. As opposed to these people are so talented, I would just love just to work with them. I don't have to necessarily have them in my video. I can just, if they have an idea. If they want to do all with my producing it, I would love to eventually my goal is also to create my own films and my own TV shows, but also produce content for other strong creators, other strong actors, actors.[00:31:03] That might not be directors. I see a lot of talented people that put content out and I'm like, I don't like it because I'm very particular about how they convey a story, how to perform dialogue, how to really put a dope, strong scene together in a series of scenes together to make us.[00:31:21] To make a short film, to make a film, to make a TV show episode. And I see a lot of funny, talented people that can act. I can do these things, but they're not director. So it kind of falls flat. I would love to be, I would love to build some kind of conglomerate to where it's me, along with other directors.[00:31:36] That they have access to these strong actors that will help tell their stories. You know what I'm saying? [00:31:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You definitely have the network and the access to these people and being able to create that platform makes a lot of sense. And what it makes me think of is just how people are structuring.[00:31:54] Their team or what their group of people look like. And I'd be curious to hear what that is like on your end. What is your team look like? How many people are working with you on a regular basis to put out your content, to run the business, and what are some of those roles that people currently have with where you are right now?[00:32:14] Okay. [00:32:14] Bigg Jah: So I could tell you how I started. I started by myself. And my room on my phone, my iPad, and I had cameras. I had cameras equipment cause I was a DP, none, not a professional. I mean, I was a professional DP, but I wasn't in for Hollywood, but I was a DP. I was directing music videos and being hired to shoot weddings, music, videos, short films, sketches.[00:32:36] I was all those things by myself. I had a truck full of equipment, a lot of DIY. And then when I decided to do stuff for myself, like the Bigg Jah brand, I'm pushing big jock. I'm the first guy I had was my boy, Ken Edwin. I ran into Ken. Ken is another comedian, another actor and writer. I've known him for years, but I didn't know that he did content.[00:32:56] So I ran into him about five years ago. I've known him for about eight and then we didn't become real friends until five years. And I saw that he created too, and his stuff was dope. It was super, super creative. I was, I was not when I first saw it and I was like, maybe we need to work. And he come to find out he's just a selfless as I am, anytime I needed someone to shoot, he was there to shoot.[00:33:18] If I needed to use his house. I can come to his house and shoot at his house. If I needed to go to another location, he'd be there with his camera and my camera, and we'll put them together. And he's working. He was the first guy that really supported me in this as far as shooting, even before that, when I was a standup comedian and I just got my first camera and I was on to start shooting for other comedians, my boy, Kraig Smith.[00:33:40] Kraig is like the first guy that really supported me had my back. And it was a team. It was a team of two, me and him when I was writing something directly to him, he was after or whether or not he was trying to network and tell people that we can shoot your projects. And me and him first started doing like a comedy specials, like short comedy specials.[00:33:58] We would have like five, six comics at a time. They would come to a comedy show and we would film them doing their sets. And we did that. I'm talking about almost 10 years ago. So we've been doing this for a long time, and then it kind of evolved into me doing the big stuff and then add into the team. So Ken, my boy, Kraig, my boy Troy around, I ran to Troy working at a sketch house.[00:34:20] We were all creating at this place called the sketch house and he and I were the only ones that actually were doing. On cameras, not just cell phones, everyone else is doing cell phones. He and I were shooting on cameras and we needed somebody to shoot that we didn't have, we had cameras. We didn't have anyone to shoot for us because no one knew how to shoot cameras.[00:34:38] They were all always on their phones. And so we decided to you shoot for me, I shoot for you. And that's how we built that bond. So me, Troy, Kraig, Ken. So I met a lot of these guys doing the work as sketch artists, and we just clicked and we just decided. Okay. Is a group of us. Now is 1, 2, 3, 4 of us.[00:34:59] When you need them at the time where you just shoot, we got one of us gonna shoot for you. One of y'all gotta shoot for me, and that's how the team formed. And that's when we sort of started growing I'm shooting every day. I'm shooting a couple of sketches a day. I'm dropping two or three times a week and my platform is starting to grow.[00:35:14] Cause now I'm flooding. The followers on flooding the supporters that are just, if they love this, you're gonna love this. You're gonna love this. So I was coming out with so many different pieces of content, so many different stories. Cause I had guys that will come bring lights. They were inexpensive.[00:35:29] They were the cheapest lights you can get, but they were there and we just, none of us really had any real money we had. And we had loyalty and that's really the only reason why I got to where I'm at right now, honestly speaking is that the team and, and it wasn't like I had a professional casting, uh, cast director, casting director, or a professional DP or a gaffer.[00:35:50] I just had the homies and we were just supporting each other, shooting all of our sketches together and we was putting out stuff. And then it got to the point where we were all making okay money. We were starting to make a little income from it. And we start, we had to meeting, we had a recent meet every Sunday, every Sunday we used to meet.[00:36:09] And then we got to the point where we were saying, we got to find our individual teams as a team. We had to branch out and get our own shooters, our own editors, our own, this, that, and the other. So we don't have to be balled down weekly. This doing work for you. You know what I'm saying? It's the officer, their stuff, his stuff today, his stuff tomorrow, I Vista somebody showed my stuff on Wednesday and then I'm shooting this stuff on Thursday and vice versa.[00:36:30] Now a week we're all working as grind is great. We're grinding, but we need time to do something else too. You know? And so now I had to regroup my team. I had to rebuild my team. These guys are still around. They're still my brothers. They was at the house today. I mean yesterday, but I had to find my own guy.[00:36:46] That's going to shoot for me as opposed to. Always relying on them because now they gotta be there, but we're all busy. We all got our own things. We've built our platforms. We have our fan bases. We have our algorithm, the race against, you know what I'm saying? So instead of having him take the whole day to fill my stuff, he needs to feel his stuff.[00:37:02] And now we need more than one day each we need 2, 3, 4 days each for the week. You know what I'm saying? So now to answer your question, I have to give you that quick basketball, that long story. My team now is smaller. My glamour, their friends that are there, that I create with they're still here. It's about five of us.[00:37:20] The whole crew was stupid is the show that I was doing. I was on the live show December. I mean, November. October October, November, December of last year, I did a one monthly Inglewood, California. I did a live show where I was so fat. I was so sketches and I was shows that we would do stand up comedy in between the sketches.[00:37:41] And it's about five. And yeah. Five. Yes. So that's the crew, the whole crews who that's their crew. But as far as me shooting now, I have a DP and it's really just me and another guy, me and my boy, Anthony. He was also a director. But once again, you run across people who are selling. And just loyal to the cause.[00:38:01] And he's a director first arrived a director at first that has a strong with the camera and strong with lighting and strong with editing. And he does a lot of those things for me. He does basically, sometimes it's like, for example, we just came, we just finished shooting the second season of lesbian homie.[00:38:18] And he helped me write that he co-wrote it with me. He co-wrote it with me. He de Pete the whole. And he's editing the whole season. So he's really a person that is doing four or five guys jobs. You know what I'm saying? All in one. And it's a blessing. I met him a few years ago. He loves my content and we met basically him as a fan of the content come to find out he had this wealth of knowledge of filmmaking and we became a team.[00:38:43] So he and I together created this whole season two of lesbian homie. And it's probably the best thing I've ever done producing. Written, and he has a lot to do with it. He was, he's an inspirational dude and I'm all about organic relationships. And our relationship is very organic, even though he came to LA and he wanted to meet me because he wanted to let me know what he can do.[00:39:07] And once I'm, once we met clicked, we had the same type of style. So my team is small. Still. My goal is to branch out and delegate some of those, uh, roles that he does to other people. But to be honest with you, I'm particular. You know, I have a certain style that hood good style and how I edit, how I write.[00:39:27] It's hard for me to like, have other people write for me or other people edit my stuff, but I don't have time to do all of this stuff. I've written over 400 sketches. You know what I'm saying? So it gets to the point where I got to delegate some things. So I can't be doing everything myself. My team is small, but I know over the years I've worked on bigger projects and I've done.[00:39:48] I've hired. I do have access to other people who, like I said, I grew up, I came in in this game. Directing and DP work. So I know a lot of other DPS that have camera year and have experience. So when it comes time for me to shoot my actual film, I can have a cast. Wardrobe VP camera assistance, gaffing crew.[00:40:08] I know I have enough resources and a Rolodex of people I can contact when I need to do a full production. [00:40:13] Dan Runcie: It's impressive. What you've been able to do with the small team. I mean, outside in someone could look and see, I go, I'm sure he has a whole crew of people that are working with this. But like you said, you have people that are wearing multiple hats.[00:40:25] They're shipping in here and there to do things, and that's ultimately how you build. And I think you ultimately do get to the place where. Things kind of continue to expand, but there's also no reason to make things bigger than they need to. Part of the beauty is you being able to be nimble and having a team that appears bigger than it is.[00:40:42] I feel like that's the most powerful position to be in. And for you with that, what's on deck for you for the next few years. Now that things are opening back up now that the pandemic is starting to subside. What do you see for the next couple of years? What are you most excited about? I know you want to get more behind the camera, but is there any specific projects or anything else that we should keep an eye out for? [00:41:04] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Yes, sir. I don't know when, because I'm still assembling. It's still being written, but I'm wanting to do a film wrapped around the character Tiberius. I'm doing a Tiberius film and I'm excited about that. I think that's going to be a big thing. I hopefully the, I haven't brought Tiberius out in the long run.[00:41:21] And maybe, I'm praying that the supporters, fans, supporters, I call them supportive. Most likely, usually it will still let the idea of becoming that with a movie for type area. So audition still have an agent I saw audition for other roles. And I'm open to do other projects for other companies, other studios, but as far as my stuff, even one or two at one of the two are going to happen.[00:41:44] I'm either going to shoot the film this year are going toward this year. And if I don't shoot this feminist year and I still do go on tour, I want to be, I don't want the film with within the next year. The defendant would be, we made it in the film. So whether, and I can do it independently, like I said, I'm at the point now where I'm, it's a blessing to be able to say, I can just do this myself.[00:42:06] I know how to, I know how to create film, just do it myself. And I have enough people around me, good people who are, are good at what they do to make a dope film. [00:42:15] Dan Runcie: That's exciting, man. It's good stuff. Good stuff. Hey, Bigg Jah this has been great. Before we let you go, though, where should the chapter audience follow you to keep posted with what you're doing and everything that you got coming up?[00:42:28] Bigg Jah: You can follow me everywhere @Biggjah. B-I-G-G J-A-H. As YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tik Tok, I'll be on Tik Tok doing all kinds of stuff. I'll be dancing around. Naw, I'm not doing too much, but I do a little. I'm on all platforms at Bigg Jah. My website's Biggjah.com.[00:42:51] The Hood Good Store go get your merge. If you want to support, it's all love you. It's love anyways, but go to thehoodgoodstore.com. That's T-H-E-H-O-O-D-G-O-O-D-S-T-O-R-E.COM. That's the https://thehoodgoodstore.com. You can get almost most of the stuff I wear in my sketches.[00:43:09] This is my own company is my own brand and I sell it myself. Much love to you all. If you have any more questions, I got answers. [00:43:16] Dan Runcie: Good stuff, man. Good stuff, Jah. Appreciate you coming on [00:43:19] Bigg Jah: Thank you so much, bro. [00:43:21] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy of the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat,post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show.[00:43:49] Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

The traditional record label model isn’t artist-friendly. That’s not a secret to anyone by now. Deals are notoriously long and feature a revenue split heavily tilted toward the label — not the artist. But an ambitious alternative has arisen in the last few years. Meet indify, a start-up co-founded by musician prettyboyshav and his two childhood best friends, Matthew Pavia and Connor Lawrence.indify is a platform that connects investors with up-and-coming artists. Investors can not only financially back artists, but also mentor them in matters like legal or marketing. But unlike a record deal, investments can be as short as a song-per-song basis. As prettyboyshav told me, it’s like “going on dates instead of marrying.” As an artist himself with millions of streams to his name, Prettyboyshav is specially equipped to carry out indify’s vision — to create a more equitable, prosperous music industry. indify was originally a music discovery tool when it launched in 2015. Using an algorithm, it identified emerging artists on the cusp of “blowing up” like Khalid, who the tool flagged way back in 2015. That technology still underpins its new business pivot as the “AngeList for the music industry.” To get a glimpse into indify’s innovative technology and mission, listen to my full interview with prettyboyshav. We covered a lot of topics, including the ones below: [3:39] indify’s Mission In The Music Industry [5:28] Why Artists Are Taken Advantage Of So Often[7:03] What Does indify Look For In Investors Wanting To Join The Platform? [10:16] The Potential For Culture-Setters To Financially Back An Emerging Artist[14:38] indify Vs. Record Labels [19:07] Is There A Glass Ceiling On Artists Who Don’t Sign With A Record Label? [23:35] Does indify Do Upfront Money Deals? [26:10] Principles That Guard indify’s Technology[29:27] indify Having Web 3.0 Values Despite Being Off-Chain [33:11] How prettyboyshav Juggles His Music Career And Being Start-Up FounderListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: prettyboyshav, @prettyboyshav Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTIONprettyboyshav 00:00I truly, truly, deeply believe in it and feel it and empathize with the work that's being done because I believe in these values, which really comes down to community, right? And community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business.Dan Runcie 00:26Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is prettyboyshav. He's the co-founder and CEO of Indify, a platform that is helping people invest in the future of music. Indify connects merchant artists with the funding they need to build the biggest careers. On Indify, it brings together artists who want to grow and control their career on their terms. It also brings together investors who want to support and back these artists and have the know how to help bring them to the next level. It also brings together business partners who can help artists with marketing, legal, accounting, and many of the other things involved to help run the business. One of the things that Shav and I have always talked about and we agree on is that artists are founders. If you follow me anywhere, you've seen me talk about this, you see me reiterate this. And I think Shav himself is a great example of this. He very much approaches Indify this way, and he's also a recording artist himself, prettyboyshav has over 10 million streams. And we talked a lot about what it's been like for him, navigating both the CEO role and his role as an artist. But we also talk about what Indify has been up to and some of their progress they've ha. The company has had over a million dollars generated this past quarter and 2022 for the artists on its platform and over a billion streams for those artists collectively as well. We talk about the influence that some of the partners they've had as well, such as Alexis Ohanian, who was an early investor in Indify, some of the artists that he's been able to back, and ultimately what they're trying to build towards. We talked about how Indify is positioned relative to other alternative financing options in the music industry. We also talked about how it's positioned relative to record labels. And can an artist on one of these alternative financing platforms achieve the same success as the superstars that are on the major record labels? The folks that headline major music festivals, perform at the Super Bowl and things like that? This is a great conversation. And if you're interested in where the music industry is going, some other options, you'll love this one. Here's my chat with prettyboyshav. All right, we got the one and only prettyboyshav here with us today. He is the co-founder CEO of Indify, platform and a company that is helping artists embrace their independence. He is also an artist himself with over 10 million streams. Shav, welcome to the pod.prettyboyshav 03:15What's up, Dan? Good to be here, man. I've been wanting to come on here for a while.Dan Runcie 03:19Yeah. And I mean, you know that I've been following everything that you've all been doing. And it's been very interesting to see how you've navigated the industry and how you leverage the technology built to continue to do good things. So for those that are less familiar, what is Indify and what is it that you all are trying to help solve in the music industry?prettyboyshav 03:39Well, Indify is a marketplace that's helping artists raise funding on equitable terms from strategic partners. You could think of it as almost like AngelList for music. I think our premise is that the major labels and a lot of the old system and the traditional system, the music industry, kind of represent what you know, private equity did years ago on the venture side. And I think fortunately, we have things like YC and AngelList. Actually, one of these tweets is the Kanye tweet from around fall 2020, where he kind of talked about a lot of things that we've been talking about, but we think it's time that a lot of those standardized, founder-friendly, and digitize terms come to help artists who we believe are also founders raise funding equitably. Yeah. So it's been exciting. I think this is an evolution from our earlier platform, which was really just a discovery tool for the music industry and became an industry-standard tool across a ton of record labels and ended up identifying a ton of artists, early one that we're very known for is Khalid.Dan Runcie 04:34Nice, and I got to mention, because you mentioned the Kanye tweets behind you. Is one of those the one that's talked about the Y Combinator for the music industry?prettyboyshav 04:43Yes, that's exactly what it is, you know, “When I spoke to Katie Jacobs who's on the board of the Vivendi. We decided to create a YC for the music industry so artists have the power and transparency to be in control of our future. No more shady contracts, no more lifelong deals.” And this one is Alexis tweeting Blonde, because I showed Alexis Ohanian, who's our investor. I was like, man, you got to get deeper into Blonde and Frank Ocean because this thing is amazing.Dan Runcie 05:05Yeah, it's an amazing album. And I think, thinking more broadly about what you all are building, I think that venture for music is the pitch I've heard from you. I've heard references well with where you're seeing with this, but I feel like you're taking a bit of a more unique take on it than maybe just the YC model. So what does that look like? What do you see things playing out for you?prettyboyshav 05:28Well, I think what YC did, right, in building the safe and standardized docs, and more documentation and transparency has allowed founders to see, okay, what is par for the course? What are founder-friendly terms? You know, if you don't use a safe note, for a raise, or standardized docs, you're kind of, you know, totally left field, a ton of artists, I would say, you know, just anecdotally, like, one out of three artists we meet, a very high percentage have actually signed some sort of predatory, shady contract before they even get off the ground. And the lack of standardization at that early stage if you compare it to Venture Seed, Series A, Pre-seed, has made it so a lot of artists get taken advantage of at inception. And I think that's something that's very core to Indify to prevent that from happening to build the tools and education system so that artists can have an ecosystem or have kind of technology, such that they're protected.Dan Runcie 06:20And I think a lot of that you mentioned the partners they work with and the people they meet, because that, of course, is how people ended up in either good contracts or bad contracts. That's a lot of what's there right? And I think you've spoken before about this distinction between smart money versus dumb money, which I know has also been very common in investing and in tech as well. And I think the same can be said in music. And I know that you all do your job on both sides, both the artist side and the investor side to determine who can be entered into the program. So yeah, let's start with the investor side. What are the things that you look for when someone wants to join your platform because they want to invest in an artist?prettyboyshav 07:03Yeah, I think, you know, building on kind of some of the points you were making earlier to Dan, like, what is protection for artists? What is being artists first? This is something that at Indify we studied for six years, and these are nuanced questions, and I've studied it myself as an artist, right? You know, there's a ton of funding solutions that are out there, some fan investing, some loan investing, but you know, if it is a finance bro buying your song, or if it is, you know, a loan against your own streams, a lot of the times this can put the artists in a worse position than if they were to take no money at all, because now they're in the hole, X amount of dollars. And if all those dollars are not spent, wisely are spent in a way that they're amplifying, ultimately, your platform as an artist or your income as an artist. Now, you're not increasing your income, and you're in the hole 10, 20, 50k. And that's something that I think, you know, is important to make a distinction about because artists are founders. And we're not necessarily seeing founders prioritize capital, but prioritize the best partners when they're raising funds for their companies. I think the same is true for the smart business owners that are artists. And I think they should be respected as such, many of them are making six, seven figures a year that work with Indify. And part of the reason that that is, is they're not only I think, CEOs in their own right, and building their business on platforms like TikTok, Instagram, social media, shipping every day, right? Like we talked about shipping with founders, these artists are shipping every day. They're putting their stories out there, they're connecting with people. But they're also very, very smart to find business partners that know how to digital market their music, that know how to manage their operations, and they're hiring these partners and partnering with investors. And so what we look for, you know, there's generally two kinds of cohorts, I would say, one is spark music professionals that have had experienced breaking artists before. And we have certain kinds of thresholds for that, one of the thresholds we talked about is, has this partner work with an artist that has reached over 30,000 streams a day or not, even previous time? Or also, you know, influencers themselves. I think that's something that we're really excited about. It's a bit more on the early stage. But, for example, Alexis Ohanian invested in the artist Leah Kate, I think around, you know, when he least identified her on the platform, and he, that was all him. He went on the platform and he found her. She was even lower on the rank. She was at around 3000 streams per day. He's helped her grow using his platform and his base to now over a million streams a day. And we think that's an incredible example of a partnership. And we think those combinations together, a syndicate of sorts of these strategic professionals with strategic influencers that can gift an audience to younger artists, is the new way of music industry.Dan Runcie 09:51I'm sure there must be some nuance there, right because of course, someone like Alexis who is a fan, he understands that clearly, he has a lot of influence to be able to make things happen. But I'm sure you may also get interest for people in tech, let's say they were early at a startup, startup exited, they have some extra money. They may know nothing about the music industry, but they just want to get in. How are those conversations?prettyboyshav 10:16Well, I think, Alexis, and I'll tell the story, like, Alexis tweeted, I wish I could invest in Lizzo enterprises. And I tweeted back, invest in the next one on Indify, and somebody showed him the tweet, somehow, I caught him for five minutes at the US Open actually, and told him music investing safe, he said, you're a crazy person. Investing in music can't be safe, I tried it. And he, actually, you know, put his money where his mouth is, and he backed an artist. But I think with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to help that artist and grow, with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to spend time with Leah, who was a founder and help her develop both as an artist and as a businesswoman, an independent businesswoman who's building an incredible seven-figure per year revenue business. And so I think that that development, and I think more so with him, the ability to empower her as an entrepreneur. And that story, getting out there, I think, was what made for something really exciting with Leah. But I think what's really interesting is now bigger artists actually coming into the fold. We actually a huge artist, I'm not at liberty to say yet, in Q1, backed an artist, one of my favorite artists of all time, and this I think is going to happen more and more. What happens if LeBron starts backing artists on Indify, right? What happens if, you know, actors and actresses? What happens if Lisa, right, starts backing artists on Indify? I mean, these are artists that can bring real taste, culture, and audiences to those next generation of emerging artists. And I think when you're posed with signing your rights away to a major label or partnering with someone like that, I think it's a really exciting proposition for the future.Dan Runcie 11:48Yeah, this reminds me of an idea that I think it was Jack Butcher, if someone like that had mentioned on a podcast about looking at someone like a Canelo Alvarez or even Deontay Wilder, you have these prizefighters, boxers, and if they invest in artists, that artist is the one that walks out with them when they're doing their walk-up music, that is a huge platform, so able to introduce someone like that. I think that is so powerful.prettyboyshav 12:14I saw that clip and shout out Jack Butcher and Visualize Value, and everything he's doing. He has an amazing podcast too, he's a friend. And I think that's such an amazing concept, right? Like, I think as a society, we're yearning for cross-cultural moments, you know what I mean? You see it so much with even the Paul's fighting in boxing. And you know, Paul-Mayweather, what a crazy event that was, or Conor McGregor-Mayweather and I think, more and more, I think you're gonna see culture crossover, right. And I like that fun there. But like, you know, music is in our DNA. And people talk about sometimes they asked me, like, you know, what's the market in music? What's the market of streaming? What's the opportunity? And I'm like, well, there's 7 billion of us in the world. We all like music, right? So I think everybody is on the table to be a part of the story. And I think that's why it's so powerful. I think we've wanted solutions for music for such a long time. But I think for us, you know, it's been these strategic partners, and pairing them with, you know, and our ability to identify artists, I think is the best out there in all honesty, pairing them with artists with traction, that's when one plus one equals 100. I mean, in the last year or so we've helped artists reach over a billion streams independently. And this is rea on the ground effort, and real on the ground connections, that is making a difference in these lives, not in terms of just a one-time cash-out. But many of these artists are now making six, and some seven figures per year over, you know, what could be the rest of their careers. And that's the beauty of when you do break through on streaming, what it can do for you can create sustainability as an artist, I think it's something that we're very proud of, in our cohort of artists helping them get to.Dan Runcie 13:48So let's talk a little bit more about the benefits and what artists do you get. Because I think a lot of people, they hear options like Indify, they're thinking about it as an alternative to maybe going with their traditional record label and doing that type of deal. And on the surface. Of course, if an artist is working with Indify, I believe the terms is up to 50% and rotating ownership for their masters is what they offer. I know there are some record label deals that do offer that. But if you could talk a little bit more about the distinction there. And if there are certain things that you think that you offer as a replacement, and then are there certain things where you still think that an artist would need to still find elsewhere, they should find elsewhere, and may be a bit of the itemization of where Indify's value add is relative to what the artists would get on a record label.prettyboyshav 14:38Well, I think talking more just technically to start, if you look at the traditional record industry contract and what standard and this is for people out there who don't know, generally they're like, aghast when I explain this, but a typical record deal is, this is the deal that a lot of these greats have signed A typically a record deal Is 85%-15% in favor of the major label, a five-album deal. And over the course of a lifetime of copyright plus like seven years. It's like the traditional kind of deal. So that means an entire artist’s career, that they're sort of signing away at 17, 16, 20 years old, but are involved in for the next 10 to 15 years of their career. And I think that time period also matters. Also, for the capital advance, you get, right, like you see these artists get all these nice things upfront, I think that upfront cost is massive. It's massive, because you're not only, in a typical loan, you pay, you know, your 100% of your rights would pay back that loan, right? In this case, your 15% has to pay back that initial advance, let's say it's 100k, 200k, 500k, meaning you're in the whole millions, right of dollars, before you see 15 cents on the dollar. And that's after there is and these are some of the things that I find the most predatory, a 25% distribution fee, which costs $20 on this circuit, or, you know, accounting that is just less than clean and clear, I'll say. And so I think on the converse side, I think a lot of these infrastructural issues are initially what we're trying to fix, you know, beyond just I think the terms, but if we put it plain and simple on terms, I mean, a lot of artists on our platforms start with raising for one song, right? With a partner that they talked to, and they might have interest from a ton of partners, messages from the ton of partners on the platform, speak with them. And if they liked that partner, generally these deals are for one song, only three to five years. And after the initial investment is paid back, I think we see a lot of 70-30 kind of splits in favor of the artists. So it's quite literally flipping the economics and making the commitment significantly less. And I think honestly, one of the other things that I've heard, you know, people talk about one of the greatest forms of control is slowness. I think, you know, these contracts, they take sometimes six weeks to six months to a year to fully kind of work through. On Indify we're seeing, you know, you can raise one song, try a partner, try another partner for another song, if you liked them, do an EP. And you can do that investment. You know, using this platform. Again, all of the actual legal terms are in our outsourced to our like TOS and our super artist-friendly, we have our sort of indie note that like backs that, but you're then just deciding for simple terms, once those are decided it can take 45 minutes to raise, and you can capitalize on that moment that's happening on TikTok, or on Instagram immediately with some of the best marketers and managers in the business that are doing a lot of, a lot of the heavy lifting behind the scenes, and are a lot of times the people who the label pay at a premium. And so I think that's for us why we feel Indify is really a better option. Because, you know, rather than diving in and getting married to a partner at the youngest possible age, you're in fact, just, you know, going on dates, I guess, with different partners and seeing, alright, who's the best fit for me, who's somebody that connect with? Who's the right value add investor for my project?Dan Runcie 18:01I do think that last example, makes a ton of sense of that, essentially, because so much of it, especially with these five-album deals, you are signing away so much early on when, if you think about yourself as an asset, you've been de-risked, hopefully much earlier in the process if you end up being successful, but there's no opportunity to necessarily realize that until a bit later on in the process, and I know one thing that I do hear from people and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it is that with some of these alternative financing options, the terms are great, everything is effective from that perspective. However, people still have this question about, okay, well, what is the max that we could see an artist succeed? Can we see someone be this superstar that's performing at the Super Bowl or reaching these Billy Eilish or Olivia Rodrigo or Ariana Grande level of artists if they're not with one of the major record labels? You could still earn a living off of those, but can an artist reach that path? So it'd be great to hear your thoughts on that, and especially how you think that relates with Indify. prettyboyshav 19:07I'd really love that question. It's something that I think about a lot. It's something that I'm excited to experiment with myself. I think eventually, you know, something that I'm interested in is documenting, transcribing, and publishing my process of going through Indify with an artist with 10 million streams. I'm not quite, I think fairly qualified. So I'm actually posting my TikToks trying to get there. But I think as an artist, you get excited about seeing what, and as obviously as a founder, what the brink of this platform is. We've seen for transparency's sake a $400,000 deal happened on Indify. We've also seen deals for 10 to 50k, right, where the investor, you know, pre-release, invest in the song. Week one with some initial pre-release traction, and then I can talk about the Seaside demo example. That song was invested in on Sunday, it came out on Monday. By Wednesday, it was doing well, Nick Mueller and Golden Kids Group, he flagged it to Spotify. And he made sure the digital marketing was being spent wisely. So that week two, it's now doing 100,000 streams per day 200,000 streams per day, week three, week four, he's calling TikTok, calling Snapchat, calling Apple, calling all the right partners such that it reaches pop rising by week two, or three, and by week five, and hit Today's Top hits as an independent song. And this happened within the course of a month. I mean, you know, songs like that, without going into too much detail. When you do have that viral capacity, you could see a 30 or 50x, on your 10k investment. And we're seeing investors experienced that, you're seeing these artists, again, earn six to seven figures, from creating moments like that. And beyond that, you know, just working with these partners, when it doesn't happen at that level, you're seeing, I think 80 or 90% of these deals on the platform are profitable. So quite literally, you have what is a low ceiling, or a low risk, high ceiling asset class, which I think is incredibly unique, especially because we're de-risking those things by only allowing the artists to come on and see strategic partners and only allowing the partners to come on and see artists with traction and be able to invest in them right on the platform and then be able to earn out directly through kind of this whole ecosystem and technology that we've built. And I think what we've seen in the last year, even the last quarter Jx.Zero, I think he reached 700 or 800,000 streams a day. Leah is now doing a million streams per day. Pink Sweat$, who was the first artist to raise way back when this was even off platform. Leah was the first one on platform with Alexis. Off platform, Pink did a funding partnership, a funding deal to start his career. I mean, he's had a platinum record. He's in the top 500 of the world, and he's at Coachella. And that's the only artists that's had a few years to develop. I think the next superstars are already happening on Indify, I think that's a given. I just think that just like startups, these are going to take time. But if you look at the last year, and even if you look at the last quarter, I think we had three or four songs hit the global viral chart last quarter, and these artists are on their way to be great. And I think just to add one more thing, if you look at Kanye West's top songs on Spotify, his jeen-yuhs just came out, College Dropout was spotlighted in that, like crazy. I mean, what an amazing doc. But if you look at his Spotify, his number one song is Praise God, right? If his number one, why is his number one some Praise God? I mean, Moon. I love that song. Arguably a better song in my view, praise God is a great song. Off of Donda, there's a million tracks that are doing well but that's the only song off Donda that's number one. No, the jeen-yuhs doc didn't move anything to number one in terms of The College Dropout and the songs that were spotlighted. So why is it that Praise God is the number one song on Kanye's catalog. Kanye West are the biggest artists the world, because on TikTok it reached 1.5 million videos. The investors on Indify are the best at marketing on TikTok and social media. And it's my belief that not only should the next generation of emerging artists raise funding on Indify, but it's my belief that the current generation of superstars will start to in the next few years.Dan Runcie 22:58It's a compelling pitch. And I think normally at this stage, you of course, are able to incentivize artists with the amount that they could earn by essentially starting around and using their songs as around or using an album is around, right? Is there any upfront pitch or financing though that would happen? So let's say there is a major artist that's like, Oh, hey, I see what you all are doing, I'm down. But if you could give me some upfront money, not necessarily an advance or some type of upfront money, what would that look like? Is that something that you've all explored? Or has that come up at all?prettyboyshav 23:35You know, it's so funny. One, bigger artists are approaching us. I think that's actually, to my surprise, I didn't think we'd be at that stage yet. It's a dream. It really is a dream, what we get to do every day, a chance to serve some of these artists gives me chills, because these are artists that are heroes. And to know that we built the infrastructure better than the old. In fact, the pitch is much easier to them than the new artist because they've been through the system. They know what it looks like from the inside. Generally...Dan Runcie 24:01So you don’t have to say the artist but could you give us like a tier, like what level is one of the ones that have reached out?prettyboyshav 24:07I would say an important megastar. I won't say like, I think that's the right, I'll give that to you. That's what I'll give.Dan Runcie 24:14Okay, okay. Someone that would have headlined Coachella? prettyboyshav 24:18Yes, absolutely.Dan Runcie 24:19Okay. Okay. prettyboyshav 24:20I think you'll see artists that would headline Coachella, and that people would be most excited about on the bill, especially in Brooklyn, where I'm at, where there is a care for culture and art, and these things that we've been excited about. I think those are the artists who were excited to serve, man. You know, like it'd be a dream to work with and help Frank Ocean raise for his next project. I mean, he's the guy that started this model years ago, and I think these artists deserve credit, not just as artists, but as entrepreneurs. But yeah, to your question on Indify, you'd be shocked. Artists are on there negotiating down the amount of initial sort of capital they'll get, because they only want the right amount, not the most amount, because they don't want to earn on their advance. They want to earn on their equity, they want to earn on the business. And that's to me, the generation of founders as artists or founders that we're looking to empower. And I think I'm excited to help the superstars, you know, earn off of their streams too as they should, because their pies are going to look a lot bigger.Dan Runcie 25:17Yeah, I think the interesting test I've always looked at was when Taylor Swift had finished her record label deal that she was on the open market/ She was exploring options, and everyone wondered, what is she going to do. She obviously wants to own her masters moving forward. And she ended up doing a licensing deal with Republic Records, which she has been now and she's released, I believe, three albums now, under that deal. I think that, what you're saying is that if we could get to the point where now the market is at a different place than it was in 2018, with options like yours, that now have the option or opportunity for a megastar, who is out of their deal. They've been de-risked they already are a star, what could it look like for them to be like, okay, now that I'm done with this deal, now, I want to go to Indify?prettyboyshav 26:10Yeah, I think you're gonna see a lot of that happening. I'm very confident in that. And I think those are conversations that are happening faster than we expected, I think what, you know, going back to the Taylor Swift moment, and you actually did an amazing breakdown of what was going on with her. And just for anyone who's listening, like, I know, you're already on Trapital, because you're listening to the podcast. But I do believe, Dan, what you're doing is some of the most accurate breakdowns in the market. I mean that. It's a joy to listen to these podcasts. It's a dream to be on here. And it's so cool to read your newsletter, you know, every time it comes out. I think, going back to the Taylor one, because I remember you breaking it down. And obviously, we're nerds about this stuff. So we should talk about it. But you know, on Indify, there's three main principles that guard the technology on the platform. One, artists own the rights forever. You know, artist kids deserve to have their music, we think that's the fundamental, maybe even a human right, not just a right that we believe they should have. And that's something that, you know, an ownership deal will never happen and in the fight, and I would hold Web 3.0 platforms to that same standard, because I think a lot of them are doing ownership deals. And I think that's going backwards. I think a lot of the music industry is moving forward from that. So it's something that I believe just very strongly as an artist, we need to move forward from. Two, artists deals are always 50% or better after the initial investment is returned on Indify. The platform is like locked in, like error out if you start to put in terms that break that. And third, artists always keep creative control. And that's the way these docs are formatted. I mean, for an artists like Taylor Swift, who's brought a lot more value to these companies, and, you know, arguably bigger than some of these institutions ourselves. She deserves to be the CEO of her own life and our own art. And she deserves to make every decision the way she wants to, she deserves to pass that on to her kids. The fact that artists like that can't do that, and then what she has to now go through to make that music, you know, listen to equitably out there is insane, it's out of control, and it shouldn't exist. And I think, you know, we need tools that we need new solutions, to rewrite how this is going to work for the next generation of Taylor Swifts. I think, Indify, you know, I hope that we can have a conversation with her about doing stuff with her future projects to make sure that, again, she can build her business equitably, own her business, but still get those strategic partners and marketers needed to take the next level.Dan Runcie 28:30You mentioned Web 3.0 earlier, and some of the solutions there and what you hope those solutions will offer to artists. And I think a lot of people have talked and thought about the Web 3.0 opportunities in music and positioned it as a use case to do or in many ways, what Indify is doing and you are proving with your platform that this can happen. It is happening off-chain, and it doesn't necessarily need to be done through 3.0 or through NFTs or things like that. Some of these things you may be exploring in the future. But where do you stand right now in that aspect, because I do feel like a lot of the other companies that are positioning themselves to try to solve a similar problem have positioned themselves as the Web 3.0 solution for this. But you've been a bit more focused on saying, hey, this can exist, it doesn't necessarily need to happen that way. prettyboyshav 29:27I mean, look, I think you really broke it down best, as you do in the A16Z piece you wrote, the music tech community is going to need to, at large, both Web 2.0, and Web 3.0, and Web 2.5, and everything in between is going to need to tackle different problems for artists for us to build an ecosystem that's competitive with these goliaths of the old, you know, and I think us working together and us holding each other accountable having these conversations and I love how I think Web 3.0 has pushed Indify to be more open and more inclusive. I have a lot of friends in the community who've, you know, shown me incredible values and the incredible depths of what this movement is about. And I truly, truly deeply believe in it, and feel it, and empathize with the work that's being done. Because I believe in these values, which is really comes down to community, right, and community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business. I, you know, I have so much love for what sound and what catalog and what some of these companies are doing. I think there are amazing founders behind those companies. I think they're building amazing tools for artists to earn different and new revenue streams on their music. And I think all of us need to really come together and work together to build this infrastructure for new artists. I think one of the things that I'm yearning for, one of the things I haven't yet I think fully see in the space that I'm excited about, is something that maybe more reflects an artist DAO of sorts. And again, I'm still in the first inning of this, all of this understanding all of this as most people are, but something I'm going to experiment with. Again, like the way I've always operated with prettyboyshav and you know, the artist career and being the founder of Indify as co founder with Connor and Matt who I've built this with, you know, my best friend since day one is, like, I experiment and we experiment, me, Connor and Matt experiment and kind of create these different like processes with the prettyboyshav. We hack at my Spotify For Artists, we do all this crazy stuff, to learn, right, and to experiment and to figure things out. And then a lot of that, a lot of that failure becomes what is knowledge and R&D into I think the Indify roadmap. I think that's an amazing way to stay grounded and stay into focus. For me, one of the things I'm going to do is and I published my goals at the beginning of this year, I not only want to raise on Indify and published and transcribe that, that for the public to see. But I also want to, as an artist, do some Web 3.0 experiments. And I'm basically launching this physical and digital trading card experience that is going to be like my mecca for my pretty community. And so it's going to come, you know, if you get it, you can basically like, see a roadmap for the prettyboyshav art, you can come get your nails painted with me, you can listen to some exclusive music. And I think those community events, that superfan access, I think is something I'm really excited to just play with on the Web 3.0 side and to see happen in the space.Dan Runcie 32:21It's great to hear, because I think you can see both sides of this, you understand what needs to be done and not just using yourself as not even more, not even a use case. But essentially you understand what needs to be built, what you would want for yourself as an artist and how you navigate all of that, as well. And while we have the time, we'd love to chat a little bit more about you and what you've been doing with your artists career on that front. First off, how you manage the time between the two, because I'm sure it's both hats to wear. And I'm sure it's a lot from that perspective, but how have you navigated doing both of those things? And I know that you've also said in past interviews, you want to be known more for music moving forward. So how does that continue to or how does that evolution continue to progress based on where you see things going?prettyboyshav 33:11Yeah, well, I think, I appreciate it, that question. You know, me, myself, Connor and Matt, we've always understood that there's this fluidity, I think, between myself being an artist and being a part of the company. And in fact, I think we've all come to realize it's a huge advantage. When I talk to artists, I relate to them, I can understand their problems when we make decisions, you know, in the room. And I think I consider Connor and Matt artists and themselves. I think Matt, what he does on a technical level and building this tool, I've always fallen in love with the art of tech. And building product is very much like making music. It's a new creative entity that didn't exist before that you created the outside world. I think it's very similar. And I think Connor himself is a writer and an incredible artist. And if you don't have art and tech, then what do you have? You know, so I think we've all come to understand that, that the prettyboyshav journey is our guinea pig. And it's a part of our story. And it's cool. It's really cool. I think more than anything, the company is us three, and to have their support in that I think is first and foremost. And to have investors supporting them too, I think is first and foremost, I think people understand that it only really makes me better as a founder. And they're one and the same. You know, being an artist and having more artists lead music companies is kind of, I hope, the wave of the future. I think on a personal level. You know, I'm really proud of the music I've put out there. I think it's some of the best music out there, whether I'm a co-founder of that company or not. And I have a new album coming up that I think is just a huge step of growth and I think addresses a lot of my own values of growing up as an Indian American understanding my own perspective, telling my own story. And it's a story that when I was 15 the two things that my sort of Northstar were, were, man, I wish I could be an artist without having to be Drake and just being you know a sustainable artist because this is what I love to do. Why is it that somebody can be an accountant but I can't be a musician, right? And why can't those existences coexist? And I think for me, I think just seeing more people like me making pop music, more people like me, getting our nails painted, wearing earrings, wearing cool clothes, and breaking kind of the boxes that that we were put into. So, for me, I think all of this stuff comes from a deep sense of mission and a deep sense of serving our 15-year-old self. It's something that Virgil talked about a lot. And I think that's ultimately, you know, what I'm in service to when it comes to both Indify and the artists journey, but it's cool to see them coming together more and more, I had my first interaction where, I was actually with Peter Boyce and John Exley and we were in LA celebrating Peter installation actually just invested in the company. And it just turned Peter's birthday, and we were sitting having a great time. And somebody came up to the randomly and was like, Are you prettyboyshav? And you know, as a kid, you always, see, I was more excited than her. But as a kid, you always wonder, as an artist that'll ever happen. I think that moment is one that you know, we all got to share together, John and Peter, we wouldn't be here without them. They've been supporting for six, seven years. So to have that with them, you know, and be on this journey together, I think is super cool.Dan Runcie 36:05That's powerful. And those stories are always great when you hear them because you know your, it definitely won't be the last time.prettyboyshav 36:11Yeah, yeah. Let's see. Got more work to do then.Dan Runcie 36:15Well, Shav, this is great. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing both your journey as an artist and your journey as a founder, as we both say artists are founders and you're a great embodiment of that statement. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug? or love for the Trapital audience to know about?prettyboyshav 36:32Yeah, I would just say you know, follow Indify on Instagram and Twitter. I think it's a good follow. And, you know, we've done a lot of work behind the scenes in the last year and a half. I think we've got to do a better job of telling our story in front of the scenes and there's gonna be a lot of content coming in the next year and storytelling coming out of these artists and these incredible stories, you're going to find amazing music, so you know, give us a follow, follow the journey. Come along.Dan Runcie 36:57Good stuff. Good stuff. Thanks, man. prettyboyshav 37:00Cool. Thanks so much, Dan.Dan Runcie 37:02If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.