Before Abe Batshon started BeatStars in 2008, a handful of superproducers had a quasi-monopoly on selling beats, charging hundreds of thousands of dollars per song. Top producers still get paid today, but the concept has become more antiquated with platforms like BeatStars democratizing beat-making. Creators can sell instrumentals — either under an exclusive license or not — to artists around the globe for a fraction of the previous cost. With $200 million paid out to creators to date, BeatStars has reset the entire economics of beats. Abe started BeatStars without any VC funding during the Great Recession. This was also pre-steaming, when the music industry was in its dark days. Bootstrapping the company, BeatStars would redefine the music landscape along with other DIY distribution platforms such as SoundCloud and YouTube. Abe’s goal from the get-go was to break the relationship-driven nature of creating music and open opportunities for creators around the globe.Fourteen years later, it’s safe to say Abe has created more opportunities and then some. Famously, Lil Nas X bought the beat for viral sensation “Old Town Road” on BeatStars for $30. BeatStars’ producers have also been featured on songs released by Drake and Ariana Grande and ads for adidas, the NBA, and many more. BeatStars’ fingerprints are all over media, not just the independents but the majors too. Here’s all the noteworthy moments during our conversation:[3:27] Recognizing BeatStars instrumentals online [6:18] Starting BeatStars amid 2008 music landscape[7:28] Receiving pushback when BeatStars began[10:02] What finally changed for producers[12:20] Resetting economics of beats[16:25] Typical earnings for BeatStars creators[20:36] Music syncs in mainstream media[23:44] BeatStars growth trajectory[28:20] More competitors in the marketplace [31:22] VC money’s impact in the music industry [36:03] BeatStars cap table[39:30] Roadmap for the futureListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Abe Batshon, @AbeBatshon  Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Abe Batshon: for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture-backed companies or big invested-type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music. [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is a topic I've been wanting to dive into for a minute and this is about the business of buying and selling beats. It's a fascinating marketplace that has shifted considerably over the past few decades. So I wanted to bring on an expert himself to chat about it. Abe Batshon, who is the founder and CEO of BeatStars, which is a marketplace for buying and selling beats. He joined me on this topic, and we took a trip down memory lane. We went back to the 2000s, we talked about what it was like. You remember when Timbaland was bragging about getting half a mill for his beats and Neptunes had 40% of the songs on the radio? As great as it was for them, there really wasn't a lot for the other producers and other people that were trying to come up, so BeatStars came up in this post-YouTube era to make it possible for having this marketplace. And Abe talks about what it was like back then and just given some of the challenges that existed with the music industry, searching for its own business model at the dark days of piracy and trying to navigate that. But then also with the early days of the streaming era and how that has lifted his business. In the past two years, BeatStars has made more money than it made in the past 12 years before that, and it's on track to have another one of its biggest years yet now. So we talk about what that journey's been like, what led to that, and how this marketplace and how this business has evolved. When Abe was starting this, people laughed at him because they thought it was crazy what he was trying to do. Today, there are plenty of investors with bigger pockets that are trying to come in and eat his lunch. So we talked about what that looks like and why he still thinks that BeatStars is well positioned there. We also talk more broadly about the amount of VC money that's come into music tech, and how he looks at that, and what it looks like for other opportunities. If you're as fascinated about this topic as I am, you'll love this conversation. Abe kept it real and it was great to talk to him. Here's our chat.[00:02:55] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Abe Batshon who is the CEO and founder of BeatStars. One of the premier places to buy and sell beats and wanted to have him on so we could have a conversation about this entire process, this landscape, and right before we recorded, Abe, you were just telling me about how you were listening to a different podcast. And you could hear when you hear that BeatStars beats on a podcast, Trapital podcast, of course, mine came from there. How do you know that the beat for sure came from BeatStars as opposed to somewhere else? [00:03:27] Abe Batshon: Well, yeah, I'm a dude. I listen to so much music on the platform. Like, I process everything so much and I kind of, I don't know if it's photographic memory in terms of when you hear something, I just retain that information around that piece of music forever. Like, I know when I've heard something. Yeah, so, yes, I'll randomly, like, you know, turn on the TV or turn on the radio or turn on, you know, TikTok or turn on SoundCloud or turn on anywhere. And I'm like, holy shit. Or Spotify, you know? And I'm listening to, like, some of the trending viral songs or the top Billboard songs. I'm like, yeah, I know those beats. I know those beats. I've heard those before. Yeah. [00:04:04] Dan Runcie: Do you feel like there's a distinct brand or sound that has BeatStars sound that you can pick up on almost in the same way that well-known and established producer has that sound like you could hear a track and be like, oh, that's a Neptunes track even if I'd never heard it before, do you feel like that's the case for a BeatStars beats? [00:04:21] Abe Batshon: Good question. You know, maybe eight years ago, nine years ago, yeah, I could have, you know, been like, okay, that's definitely an influence from the marketplace, from the sound, from the platform, but today with the amount of variety and just so many different genres, and sub-genres and styles of music that's getting uploaded to BeatStars, it's impossible to just define it to one, sound anymore, but maybe 10 years ago, for sure. Yeah, not now, not now. [00:04:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense from the timeframe perspective 'cause I could imagine, especially in the early days, there are artists you have that are likely championing the service. And if they're bringing on others that want to have that artist-type beat there, then there's going to be a lot of that similarity. But over time, especially with where you are now, over 200 million paid out to artists on this platform that just speaks to the reach that you have and everything that you've been able to do from it. [00:05:16] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man. so fulfilling, so fulfilling to just like know that's the kind of impact the technology and platform is making for, you know, for creators' lives. I'm definitely not satisfied with that number at all. But it's a great, great motivational indicator for me to keep going for the team, to keep pushing. But, you know, our aspirations are a lot bigger than that for sure. [00:05:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Let's actually go back a bit because I think that could be a way to have the arc of where this is going. Of course, you started this company in 2008, but in the 2000s, it was such a different landscape for producers, beat makers. And I look at that era as being quite top-heavy, right? If you were one of the super producers. If you were Timbaland, if you were Pharrell, if you were Kanye, then you almost had a, you know, quasi-monopoly in a particular area of just what you could charge, what you could do. But for everyone else that wasn't a superstar, it was a much more challenging landscape, I could assume. Can you speak to what it was like that time frame? [00:06:18] Abe Batshon: Oh, so challenging then. So challenging, you know, I was working at INgrooves prior to me starting up BeatStars and, you know, I'd work with a bunch of artists, and labels and I'd get to know, like, the producers behind some of the work that's being released. And even for those top-heavy guys that I was talking to, they started definitely feeling a shift in how operationally the record labels were approaching licensing of beats and the development of an artist. You know, I think I just saw a recent article. I forget which publication, oh, maybe Billboard just the other day about how everyone's a distributor now. All the majors are just, you know, they're distributors. Each one of their kind of like sub-companies under the parent companies are all, you know, competing with each other, actually as distribution companies, and it's creating like a healthy competition of distribution. And so, you know, that wasn't the case back then, man. You know, back in the day, like, the major record labels weren't operating from a DIY, you know, distribution mindset of like mass distribution, mass releases of content. That wasn't the mindset. So, yeah, it was a much more controlled environment with which producers actually were contributing to, you know, these songs or these albums that were, you know, the majority of what we were listening to back in 2008. And I think you know, what changed at all was, was the emergence of probably YouTube, right? The emergence of YouTube, and SoundCloud, and, you know, and BeatStars, right? And the accessibility and the ability to now reach a broader and global audience of collaborators and music creators. And we were kind of laughed at. We were kind of laughed at in the beginning, you know, everything different that goes against a grain, that goes against a traditional way of how things are done, there's always going to be some resistance to that model or any resistance to those ideas. And it used to bother me back in the day and I used to get some of these super producers, you know, some of them would send me like dirty messages, like you're fucking up the game. You're saturating, you're devaluing our art. And I didn't see it that way. You know, I didn't see it that way. I was seeing it as a new opportunity to create more and broader reach of intellectual property for the independent creator that can actually sustain themselves in a world where it's controlled by a few different organizations, you know. [00:08:36] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Thinking about those artists themselves. I'm thinking back to that time, there was that stat, maybe it was in 2002 or 2003, where they said that 43% of the songs on the radio were Neptune songs. And I think you could have said the same about Timbaland. You could have said the same about Max Martin or any of these people that are just on the radio so much, but you come in with this platform that very much speaks to where we were in the music industry and where things were with technology with hip-hop specifically. This is the blog era, it's really starting to pick up. You're starting to see more of that DIY distribution from the artist side. SoundCloud was just launched and even Spotify was still in the early days, but streaming still didn't take off the way it did. And I can imagine that some of the pushback or some of their response you got was from people feeling that you were likely ahead of the curve, and because of that, there were still several years before things really took off in streaming. So it was probably interesting just to see the landscape evolve. And then as you had success, you saw other competitors come in and other folks see the landscape and you're like, well, you know, I've been trying to tell you all, this is what the vision has been since the 2000s. But back then, the industry was just in such a place of people were still trying to push CDs. Like people were still trying to fight piracy. And like, when you think about that, I'm not surprised at all that you had faced some of that pushback you did. [00:10:02] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I'm trying to kind of go back to those days in hip-hop, you know, everyone was the plug for certain things. Everyone was the plug for certain things. And you had to go through this person or this company in order to achieve some of the, like, artistry goals that you have as an artist, you know? And there was a determined route that you had to go, you know. There was a determined route that you had to go and you had to go through certain gatekeepers in order to, you know, achieve success. And it just bothered me from a human level. You know, it bothered me from a human level that we're not allowed to experiment and develop art, you know. Closed environments, the outcome of those. Like you said, how many more Neptunes hits can we have continued to listen to? Nothing against the Neptunes, I fucking love those guys, right? They're amazing, they're geniuses. But even them, they would tell you that, yeah, that kind of monopoly was probably unhealthy for music, for artists all over the world. You know, I'm sure they will tell you that that opportunity was, you know, scarce, you know, opportunity was scarce. And yeah, it was relationship-driven industry, you know, so it was a different time, different time. And I think my goal was to just completely break it.[00:11:16] Dan Runcie: Thinking about that time too. You had the people that were the top producers at those times, and they could charge handover fist for a beat. I mean, there's the line where, you know, Timbaland's like, I'm getting half a mill for a beat. And if I'm thinking about just from the competitive dynamic, what happened there, you did have this very top-heavy landscape. And in some ways they're telling you, Hey, you know, you're fucking up our money. And in some ways you are, but not necessarily in a bad way because you're letting everyone else that couldn't eat at all at least get something, right? So when you now introduce this marketplace and no, you don't necessarily have to pay half a million for a Timbaland beat to get on the radio. You could pay under a thousand dollars, a few hundred dollars to have one of the biggest songs of the summer on your music, and being able to do that lifts it up for everyone else. So I think whether it's your Timbaland's or your Mike Will, other folks could still get, you know, six figures or a lot of money, but I don't know if they're getting that 2006 or those 2003 checks that they were for the type of beats they did.[00:12:20] Abe Batshon: But, Dan, superstars are superstars in terms of creation, right, in terms of music production. Even on BeatStars, right, even on BeatStars, maybe, yeah, there's some producers on a platform that don't have that type of name recognition in a game of only a handful of producers. It's kind of different now to gain that kind of name recognition, but there are superstars on BeatStars. There are superstars that are generating half a million dollars in cumulative earnings in licensing revenue from one beat on BeatStars. So those days of like earning hundreds of thousands of dollars on one track is still happening on the platform. It's just happening in a different model. It's happening in a non-exclusive model where thousands of recording artists are, you know, licensing that same production and have the rights to create another master version of that production. But at the end of the day, that producer generated hundreds of thousands of dollars just from that one piece of content that lives as a catalog item in their store. Yeah. And I'm hearing like huge songs now on the radio that those beats are still available, non-exclusively on the platform, they're still available. So producers are becoming less and less willing to let go of their intellectual property exclusively because there's just so much backend earnings and recurring revenue, business building and, you know, forecasting of earnings for themselves, that it doesn't make sense now for them to kind of give up the rights to just one rights holder anymore. So now it's super competitive and it's gotten to a point where I think competition is healthy in song making like, Hey, here's the beat, $20. By the way, some of these beats, a lot of these beats that live on BeatStars, if they existed back in those 2000s, when it was the heyday of license revenue of 200,000 a beat or 500,000 a beat from Timbaland. Like, these beats are competing with those beats or even beyond them, right, 'cause these kids are pumping out content like crazy, right? They're bending this software in terms of DAW, the accessibility to digital VSTs, and effects, and processing, and sound libraries and, like, their ability to, like, craft, you know, sonically, like, amazing, amazing records that penetrate every market around the world. Like, it's much easier now. Back then it was harder. But, yeah, I think the earnings potential is still there on BeatStars. You know, I think it's still there. It still exists and that's why we're still seeing producers that have had tons of success, you know, licensing to major recording artists still maintaining and developing and building their online presence on BeatStars. Like, it's still a major income stream from them to the point where they can't neglect it. And they can't completely immerse themselves in the traditional way of like, you know, music licensing within the industry. It's cool to see. It's cool to see a balance. You got to have both. You got to have both today. [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. And I'm glad you brought that point up 'cause that's an important distinction 'cause, of course, we're talking before about the upfront money that the super producers were getting in the 2000s, but people were rarely talking about the totality of it, and what it looks like. And that's what you're talking about here and being able to measure it in totality makes so much more sense because, with the way it currently is now, with an artist releases something on BeatStars, there's so many ways that they can generate money from that, whether that's, especially if it's non-exclusive, as you mentioned, people can pay for it directly. Anyone that is then using that beat, you could earn revenue directly, you know, from anything that's there, depending on the arrangement. But then I think you have this additional benefit where people, especially with TikTok and all these other platforms, they want to be able to remix and make their own versions of songs and being able to do that and how that can compound on each other. That's what makes the platforms like this successful. And maybe it would be helpful to hear you mentioned that, you know, there are superstars on the platform that are making and exceeding a lot of those, you know, revenue totals that we had seen before. What does a typical breakdown of that look like in terms of how much of that comes from upfront sales of people purchasing versus how much of it is the recurring and maybe ballpark? We don't need anything too exact, but maybe to give an idea. [00:16:25] Abe Batshon: Yeah. So I guess we can only attribute the upfront micro licensing revenue on BeatStars, right? That $200 million, that micro licensing. But if we wanted to get very, very technical, we can talk about the earnings that were actually, you know, generated from those, you know, derivative works, those songs that were made from those beats. And if you calculate the earnings from the millions of songs that are created on the platform every year that get distributed to DSPs and DIY distributors, you're talking probably billions of dollars of earnings, music copyright earnings from, all of these non-exclusive licenses, cumulatively. So I wish there was a way to calculate all that, but it's hard to like quantify that. But I think today, from a platform earnings potential on BeatStars. I think the average seller producer on the platform generates over a thousand dollars a year, you know, which, Hey, a thousand bucks is, you know, not the craziest amount, but if you compare that to the average earnings of artists on these DSPs or some of these, some of these other ways of earning revenue from music. I don't want to poke too many holes at platforms that are, you know, kind of not building their businesses and products with the music creators in mind. I wish they would. I wish they would, but we're not going to get too deep into that. But I think I'm proud. [00:17:53] Dan Runcie: I was going to say there's somewhat listening right now that is backing into the math of how many streams does it take to get a thousand dollars a year?[00:18:01] Abe Batshon: Right. Exactly. Yeah, I think if we were to calculate the stream versus earning ratio on BeatStars, yeah, our million streams are definitely generating a shit ton more, shit-ton more than what you would earn, you know. But again, it's a different concept, different way of consumption. Things are happening differently than compared to, you know, the more bigger consumer products that are out there, which, you know, we're going to keep up with them at some point though, I think, and that's one of our goals is to build a more consumer-friendly product that actually is not just niche to artists and music producers. So we're excited about what the future of what we can do for our creators, yeah. [00:18:41] Dan Runcie: Can we talk a little bit more about that? What would that consumer side look like? 'Cause I think as you mentioned, a lot of the creators themselves are the ones that are using the platform, getting the most out of it, but what would the more creator side focus look like?[00:18:56] Abe Batshon: Like a more creator-focused platform that evolves, what the evolution of what BeatStars could be? Yeah, I mean, you know, we are already starting to do it. We're already starting to do it in terms of adding publishing administration, global publishing administration, and partnership with Sony Music Publishing and giving our creators the ability to go and collect on, you know, all their royalties worldwide. I think is a big one from all of these copyrights that are made on the platform that they still have ownership and rights to. You know, we don't take ownership of anything on the platform. Our creators right now keep a hundred percent of all their sales on the platform. They maintain all of their ownership. They dictate and decide what their license terms look like. We're just a technology layer just facilitating this collaboration. And I think, we'll definitely get into a lot more, a lot more businesses that are complimentary to music licensing. So we do allow our creators to sell sound kits and samples as well, too. And I think we're, you know, we're going to build a more sophisticated product around that. Major companies are already licensing for syncs already off of the platform indirectly, even though that's kind of not the primary function on the platform. That's something that, you know, we're exploring and, and going to expand on as well 'cause just another revenue stream opportunity, you know.[00:20:12] Dan Runcie: I was going to ask you about syncs next because I feel like that is so current and top of mind, especially the explosion of video streaming right now in all those projects. And so many people see the benefit of having a good sync. And I think we're having these conversations before, but ever since the Kate Bush song on Stranger Things, those conversations have happened so many more times, more frequently than I've at least heard before then.[00:20:36] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. We used to have a, man, like eight years ago, we did have a sync license and I don't know why we took it away. We just kind of wanted to laser focus on just the non-exclusive licensing of artists and producers. But yeah, we're already seeing our music and Netflix documentaries. We're already seeing our music, you know, synced on movies, TV shows, independent, films, commercials for Adidas and Madden video games. We're seeing our content already being used in that way. You know, it makes sense to develop a product that's, you know, tailored for that community for sure. [00:21:06] Dan Runcie: Has any of the explosion of music rights buying and selling, has any of that changed and shaped your business in any way? Because I know that there are super producers themselves that have sold theirs, whether Tableland or Darkchild having done deals themselves. Has any of that shifted anything or have you seen any result of that in your business or any of the transactions that are being made there? [00:21:31] Abe Batshon: Yeah, so I'm not too aware of too many producers on the platform that have kind of sold their rights away or anything like that. It hasn't happened on the platform, but I'm sure, I'm sure there's been, you know, those investor, kind of like investor copyright types that are out there acquiring rights of music, whether it's, you know, from the producer's side of things. But I'm sure they get approached all the time. I just, I don't know of any, like, specific creator producer on the platform that's done it yet. But I'm sure, like, a lot of people are having those conversations with them for sure. [00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, 'cause I know the artists' side, artists get reached out to all the time now about this whether it's from the main investment firms that we know, or even some that in my experience don't really do much in music, but have reached out because they'll reach out to me to see if I can reach out to these artists, right? And I got to imagine that in some ways, not only are they looking for the artists themselves, they're looking okay, where are these artists? Where are the catalogs that they own? So it's fascinating to see, I assume that it's likely a conversation that, especially given the way your business is, I know you said that a thousand dollars is the average payout annually that artists or that the beat makers and producers get on the platform, but I'm sure that it is quite top-heavy itself where, you know, there are the few that are just bringing in so much, and I'm sure that they're probably hearing some of those conversations every now and then. [00:22:54] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. I'm sure it's happening a hundred percent. [00:22:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things that I had seen, especially with BeatStars, we talked about how growth you've had recently, and, I believe this was at July 2020, you had $85 million in payouts that you had done to beat makers specifically at that point since you had launched a platform in 2008, and then you had recently announced a few months back here now in 2022, that you had had $200 million. So quite a big jump, it’s almost double in less than a two-year span. One, it would be great to hear what that was like and also, what are the steps that happened or what are the things that you all had done that helped you, you know, double everything that you had done the past decade-plus in the past two years?[00:23:44] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I mean, our growth trajectory, even the years prior were a hundred percent year over year as well, too. So we were already kind of pre-pandemic move, like, that was our growth trajectory prior as well. It just took us a long time. It just took us a long time. We did it the slow and steady way. And the last two years, I would say, for sure the pandemic put a priority, yeah, I guess I guess people started questioning their existence, man. You know, like we started questioning our existence and we're like, am I not going to explore my art, you know? Like, I know I was doing it. I was making more music during the pandemic. And I would, you know, meet a lot of our creators and I and I would hear their stories and like, I started singing during the pandemic, or I started making beats more seriously, I'm home and I needed an outlet to kind of license and sell them. And so I think the pandemic definitely kind of accelerated the priority or like top of mind of creators to take it more seriously or to kind of, you know, explore more serious options for monetizing their music. So it's been a blessing to kind of see the platform and marketplace grow globally all over the world, and yeah, the marketplace is still booming and still going crazy. And I think, you know, we'll achieve over 70 million this year for sure. That's kind of our projection, could be more. So yeah, the licensing activity is continuing to go great. I'm excited. I'm excited about the future, man.[00:25:06] Dan Runcie: That's good to hear because I am not surprised to hear the growth in the pandemic. I think there's so many things we can look back on the past two and a half years where especially something like this, where the art of doing it is something that people could do at home. So many people that are creating products, or creating services, or music, or medium putting out into the world, so much of that picked up and there was so much that was successful. And I think we saw that with the way the stocks went and the way everything was. So you had this run from March 2020 pretty much up until let's say November 2021, when everything was booming, right? The past six months, we saw certain things come back down to earth a bit. And I think there were a lot of the pandemic stocks and a lot of the companies, even the ones in the music industry that had had sky-high valuations, coming back down to earth a little bit, but at least for you all, I'm getting the impression that that hasn't necessarily impacted you from that perspective, given I think you have a different business model than a lot of the companies that had, you know, challenges there, but how the past three to six months been specifically?[00:26:10] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I think our growth has kind of leveled off a little bit. We're kind of, you know, I guess, the normalization of things are happening for sure. And we're having to work harder to like retain our subscribers and users. It's just shifting our approach and adjusting and pivoting to more accessible business models for this time and this moment in our history. I mean, it's for sure a recession. It's happening globally. It's impacting a lot of people's lives and we need to make sure that we kind of still factor that in mind and create products that are are still useful and accessible and functional for anyone with any economic status that they're in, you know, because it breaks my soul if someone can't afford a BeatStars subscription and can't explore their art and can't develop themselves and meet those goals because of this current space that we're in right now. So we're definitely pivoting and adjusting and thinking about new and better accessible business models that can cater to anyone with any kind of economic status. So, we're definitely adjusting things though. [00:27:11] Dan Runcie: I could imagine. I do think though that these things aren't permanent and, of course, we'll see things pick up, again it's just a matter of the timing there specifically. I do feel like for you all, it's interesting because the future of where this all is heading right now, you, as you mentioned, I think that you were a bit ahead of the curve. So, you know, growth in the early days may not have been as fast, but now we're in this place where people saw the success you have, people see the potential of where things going and now more companies are starting to launch their own beat marketplaces and ones that we're establishing other places. Have you seen that impact, what you've seen in your businesses? Because I know that, at least from other people I talked to that are in streaming of the DSPs, they've talked about how we've switched from this herbivore market where everyone's just capturing people that are generally wanting subscriptions to now they're in this carnivore mode of competing with each other. Have you seen any of that where you feel like the people who are beat makers now, it's not so much capturing new ones. It's essentially positioning yourselves from the competitors who have come after you. [00:28:20] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I'm definitely, you know, definitely aware of the competitors, and a lot of these guys were admirers of what we've done. And you know, I know them personally. It's flattering, you know. It's flattering to see in terms of people being inspired by the things that I create and build and what we do here as a company as well too. And it's part of being in a capitalistic society that we're in, you know. Monkey see monkey do, you know. I feel like it's increased our kind of our competitive spirits here at the company to want to be more innovative. I think it's a blessing that there's other folks trying to come into our space. For me, I've been doing this for almost 15 years, right? So it's, I need a kick in the ass in terms of where I want to go in my career and the aspirations where I want to see BeatStars. I mean, we've always been driven and always been the hardest working and most caring community that you'll ever see in terms of the music producers. But yeah, I just use it as a competitive chip to keep moving and pushing and pushing for our creators to provide even more fair and useful products for them. I haven't seen a shift in like our business or anything like that because of the competitors, you know. It may take a while for that to happen. If they do something super unique or whatever it is that they're doing, but I haven't seen anything that's like, exciting from an innovation standpoint. It's just monkey see monkey do, copycats. [00:29:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That was going to be my next question, you see, if are there new things that you're seeing the competitors do that make you say, oh, that's interesting, right? 'Cause that would definitely validate the ass-kicking or the bit of the push there. It reminds you of that sports analogy, right? Like how. Michael Jordan had to go create these demons out of thin air because there was really no one at this level, and anytime someone tried to say, oh, Jordan or Drexler, he just like squash it that immediately. So you all having that, yeah. [00:30:04] Abe Batshon: I've always had that. You know, I'm a sports guy, huge sports guy, played sports my whole life, too. And so I definitely was competing with myself in terms of wanting to be better and extract more capacity of myself and see myself and my team's dreams continue to grow. But yeah, I just use those as just another factor into, and I'm not to say anyone's intentions are bad or anyone's intentions are good, but it's a little suspect. It's a little suspect. It's a little bit, I don't know, what's the word, but it feels ingenuine. It feels like a land grab. It feels like a money game. And for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture- companies or big invested type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music.[00:31:13] Dan Runcie: How do you feel in general about the amount of VC money that has entered music and music tech and the platforms and companies that have been launched? [00:31:22] Abe Batshon: Dude, where was this money when I was in, like, Silicon Valley? You know, I mean, I'm from the East Bay, Hayward, California. And you know, Silicon Valley was just right down the street. And when I was building BeatStars, man, I couldn't even get a meeting with these guys. Like, I created 12 of the most amazing decks throughout my career that no one ever actually saw. Like, I couldn't sell anyone on the concept of investing into music. But like I understand that at that time, the music industry was going through a huge transitional moment. Like, everyone was really scared about the future of music. So it was pretty disastrous in terms of where music was at that time, and if I wasn't an investor, I probably wouldn't have invested in me either. But I never even got an opportunity to even you know, meet investors or pitch the ideas of BeatStars. We had to bootstrap this thing the whole way. And our creators invested in us, our customers did, we built this thing together with them. We just continue to reinvest every little penny that we made back into the platform. And so I think it made the journey a lot more satisfying, but it's exciting that there's much more investment and people willing to believe and other entrepreneurs and their ideas. I think it's cool. It pushes all of us, you know, pushes our creative boundaries and it's cool to see money flow. And I I'm happy that, you know, other entrepreneurs are not going to have to struggle the way that I did for 13, 14 years before I was, you know, able to kind of like sustain ourselves. So it's like, but you know, we kind of always figured out ways to sustain ourselves build organically, which has been beautiful. And we've been profitable since day one and we just continue to run lean, you know, and just not be wasteful and just, yeah. So it's exciting. I don't know where it's going to go. I mean, I don't know where a lot of the money is actually flowing in music tech, really. You probably know more than me, Dan. I don't pay attention to a lot of that stuff. [00:33:06] Dan Runcie: You're too busy building to track this stuff. [00:33:08] Abe Batshon: I'm busy, man. [00:33:09] Dan Runcie: That's my job. [00:33:11] Abe Batshon: Busy, dude, too busy. [00:33:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. With that though, do you get more interest or offers from any of these tech companies now, because I've started to hear from a lot of the companies that rose up the same timeframe that you did that. Now, when all this money pours in, now they're getting the attention, too, and the interest, too, from these investors that wouldn't have paid attention before, but now it's much less about the initial investment. Now they're trying to either acquire and now they're trying to do a joint venture, do these things. What have those conversations been like? [00:33:48] Abe Batshon: It's definitely getting aggressive for sure. And I think because of where we are right now, economically, you know, investors feel like they can come in and get a good deal right now for all these startups or companies that have existed even prior to the pandemic that are still thriving through it as well. I'm seeing a lot of acquisitions happen, a lot of private equity stuff happening. And it's interesting. It's interesting. We don't need the money, Dan, in terms of like where we are financially. We're, you know, we're self sustaining. We've got a ton of money in the bank and we have our investment plan internally to kind of finish our, you know, not finish, but continue our roadmap of all the things that we dream of wanting to do and build within our goals at BeatStars. So, thank God I'm healthy. I'm feeling good. I'm in remission. I I battled cancer the last couple years during the pandemic. And you know, that was a shaky moment for me during that time. It was really up and down. I didn't know where my future was and still kind of in it, but I'm thankfully feeling really well and just energized and I'm enjoying independence, I'm enjoying independence. And I really feel that we're in a good spot to kind of push through this kind of down moment of the economy and head down and focus on our creators while everyone is just focusing on profit and revenue. And we're going to do the opposite and just build something that's going to be a utility for people for many years to come, hopefully. [00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely, I mean. [00:35:08] Abe Batshon: They're coming though. They're throwing checks. They're, you know, they're throwing checks at us. They're making offers, but, yeah, we're just not ready right now. We're just not ready. [00:35:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And like you said, you have the vision for this and the amount that you've poured into it, the amount that you've gone through, as you mentioned, especially in recent years, like all that comes through with the story, and I think that is what connects with both the artists and what connects with anyone that may be interested from a business perspective. And I think you do have the control, the autonomy to make those shots when you want to, and that's the power of bootstrapping, right? We all know the trade-offs where, yeah, it can take time as you very well know. But if you're able to get through the other side, the autonomy you have. You could make decisions like you don't have to have, you know, the investors reading it out of your deck or anything else are trying to wonder why you're not pumping more Facebook and Google ads to go do this or that, right? Like, you're able to do the things on your terms and to clarify, is the ownership a hundred percent you for the company or? [00:36:03] Abe Batshon: No, it's not a hundred percent me. Some employees have ownership in the company. We did take a minor, a very small, minor investment from Sony music publishing when we did our joint venture together. They've been great partners. They've been awesome. And they've been helping us kind of strategize and scale our publishing business, which I believe in the last 16 months, we've had 26 Billboard 100 hits that are from our BeatStars publishing roster of creators. One of our producers has two songs on Beyoncé's new album. And I know we had Megan Thee Stallion's new single, Pressurelicious, with one of our producers, I believe, it was HitKidd with Future. So it's like, it's so cool to see that our business is touching so many different parts of the music business. It's not just the independent creator like we're powering songs, even for the major, major superstar artists, which is awesome to see. So yeah, I'm excited about the future, man. I think we're just getting started, Dan. [00:36:53]Dan Runcie: Yeah. and it's always fascinating to hear how companies like yours think about the compensation and things like that for employees because with a lot of the other competitors or even others in the space, especially with the amount of money that support and people are getting, you know, equity in these companies and they are getting them because if they're VC backed, then they have an exit in the mindset and you aren't coming from that perspective. So it's always interesting to hear, okay, what are the other things you're doing? So, yeah, it sounds like you're still doing equity, I know. [00:37:22] Abe Batshon: Oh, I forgot to mention like there's 400 creators as well. 400 creators that invested in BeatStars when we partnered with Indiegogo back in 2016 to be one of their, actually their initial kind of equity crowdfunding launch partners. And it wasn't because we needed funds or needed money at that time. We did it because I loved the fact that our creators can actually, like, buy ownership into the company, and I can like, continue serving them, man. I can continue feeling like, you know, I have to make sure I'm reporting to these people because these are the people that keep me grounded. These are the people that keep me focused on, you know, how we impact all the other creators' lives. So yeah, we have 400 other creators from the platform that invested like $150,000 total during that campaign. So it was pretty cool to know that they're also on our ownership structure.[00:38:11] Dan Runcie: That's great to see them on the cap table. That's great. I'd like to close this conversation out. [00:38:16] Abe Batshon: Hopefully, make some money at some point. [00:38:19] Dan Runcie: Well, I mean, that depends how some of these conversations go with these, you know, companies breathing down your back. [00:38:23] Abe Batshon: Exactly. [00:38:24] Dan Runcie: So we'll see.[00:38:25] Abe Batshon: For sure.[00:38:26] Dan Runcie: But I like to close this conversation out of it and talk about focus because you talked a lot about creators and how you're focused on serving them. We're talking primarily about the people who are buying beats, the people that are selling beats, and anyone involved with that production or engineering process. But for you, I know what it's like to build a company. I'm sure there's been plenty of times where not just you or some of the people you're working with are like, oh, what if you did this? What if we did that, right? But you've been able to stay focused on I'm sure, part of it was likely a function of you're building as fast as you can. Given the fact that you're bootstrapped, some of your focus is by design, but then on the other hand, now that things are starting to come in, you're starting to see the success in reaping the rewards. I'm sure there's likely some thoughts of maybe that thing that you had in the back of your mind for a few years, but now maybe it's a little bit easier to do if you're going to be, you know, hitting nine-figure payouts annually soon enough. What are some of those things, if there are, that you have on the roadmap for where things are going for other things you might be doing?[00:39:30] Abe Batshon: Yeah, we definitely want to make some acquisitions for sure. We're exploring some of that too. We're exploring some potential acquisitions, and I think maybe we'll do our first one by the beginning of 2023. Never know. So we're definitely thinking about how can we acquire some technology or companies or communities that really would help elevate what we're doing. So definitely, definitely thinking about that. We're investing a ton in technology, man. We're, I mean our engineering team, we're probably, we'll double by next year. I think we're at like 40, 40 people on the engineering team now. So we have all of these cool projects that these engineering pods are working on and it's exciting to see. So you'll definitely start seeing a lot more innovation more frequently from BeatStars soon. We have spent, and it may look like focus, but really it's been just kind of a restrain of our technology for the last four or five years. We've been rebuilding our whole tech stack, the back end, front end, the whole thing, because, you know, we were still using legacy platform from 2008 when it was just, you know, me and our founding members of the company, Joseph Aguilar, one of our engineers, you know, building it together and we're just some kids, you know, just going crazy. We didn't think that this thing was going to scale to millions and millions of creators all over the world. So we had to kind of pivot four years ago. And we're about 95% done in terms of the full platform rebuild. And from a technology standpoint, we're competing with some of the biggest music services in the world in terms of our tech stack. Now we're prepared to really do some damage now and build on top of what we're doing and optimize our offering and also get into some different verticals as well, too. So, yeah, it's kind of like a new rebirth of BeatStars in a sense, a whole new team, a whole new technology stack, a whole new drive, and purpose. And we're building out our executive team right now, too. It's been just me in terms of executives. I was wearing all the hats, and I don't know why I was doing that. And we just hired a Head of People, Sarah Simmons, who just joined us. We have our CTO, Nader Fares. We hired Damien Ritter as our President of Label. [00:41:37] Dan Runcie: My guy, Dame. [00:41:38] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man, Dame is legend and legend to me in terms of what he's done on the independent record label front, you know, and what he's been able to do, the dude's one of the smartest guys I know. And I'm excited to have him lead the initial kind of kickoff of what a BeatStars record label can look like. Like, so many amazing artists have been discovered on BeatStars, even just from our competitions. You know, like we discovered Ali, Ali Gatie, won one of our song contests and he's got billions of streams, you know, Joyner Lucas, and Anees. Anees is an independent artist right now that's doing some amazing things, touring, you know, he's got a hit song called Sun and Moon and just killing it on TikTok and just so cool, man, just so cool to see all of these amazing artists take and utilize the platform the best way and build careers. And, yeah, so it's cool to see all these different things happen and finally bringing some like seasoned leadership to, you know, bounce things off of and build with and collaborate with. And I think I've come to a place in my career now. I feel like almost 15 years in, I can let go of some control and I think I've matured enough as an executive to now understand and articulate what the company needs and what we want in our dreams and now do it in a collaborative way with a bunch of amazing people that have the same kind of mission. So it's exciting to see what this new phase of BeatStars goes into. [00:42:55] Dan Runcie: Making moves. Love to hear it.[00:42:57] Abe Batshon: Trying to, man.[00:42:58] Dan Runcie: Hey, hey, that says that's the journey. That's the journey. Well, Abe, this has been great. Appreciate you for coming on, and before we let you go, we want to make sure that people that are listening know to find you, so where can they go to either follow you or to follow BeatStars if they want to tap in more? [00:43:14] Abe Batshon: Thanks, Dan. Dude, I'm some big fan of yours, like I told you before the podcast. Congratulations. Amazing to follow your journey as well. Follow BeatStars at @BeatStars, B E A T S T A R S everywhere. My personal social media shut down everywhere for the last few months. I shut it down, but I'm going to bring it back, just @AbeBatshon and excited to hear the feedback from this episode from folks listening to it. Appreciate you having me on man. [00:43:37] Dan Runcie: Of course, and best luck to you and best luck to you from health, most importantly, and with the business too. [00:43:43] Abe Batshon: Thank you, sir.[00:43:45] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Post Malone is the definition of a streaming-era superstar. He exploded onto the scene with the viral hit, “White Iverson” that was uploaded straight to SoundCloud. That was followed up with a record deal with Republic Records, four feature albums, world tours, and now he’s one of the world’s most popular artists. My guest on Trapital this week is Cheryl Paglierani, a partner at UTA, who became Post’s agent a few short weeks after the release of “White Iverson.” The duo, along with manager Dre London, have engineered one of the fastest and most successful come-ups for an artist during the streaming era. The keyword in the last sentence is engineered because Post’s resounding success was deliberately planned out. Cheryl prioritized live exposure early in Post’s career. “To see him was to fall in love with him,” she said, which meant getting Post in front of as many different people as quickly as possible was the key to building a fanbase with longevity. This live strategy helped make Post a must-see attraction — whether it’s on his upcoming 33-city Twelve Carat Tour or at music festivals, including his own-created Posty Fest. For a first-hand look at Post’s enormous rise over the past seven years, you’ll want to listen to my interview with Cheryl that covers strategies on touring, social media, sponsorships, and more. [3:15] Cheryl And Post Malone’s Joint Rise-Up[5:13] Post’s Upcoming Twelve Carat Tour [6:44] Exposure Was Key To Post’s Early Success [9:11] Post Malone Being Genre-Less By Design[10:32] Dynamic Between Post, Dre London, and Cheryl[12:42] Post Headline Strategy [13:52] Factors That Influence Festival Headliners[15:50] Touring vs. Festival Shows[17:57] Main Trait Cheryl Looks For When Signing With An Artist [21:29] Philosophy Of Artist-Branded Music Festivals [23:07] Post Malone Brand Deal Strategy [24:18] Correlation Between Social Media Followers & Ticket Buyers[26:01] TikTok’s Value-Add For Artists [28:00] The Trap Of Overperforming At Nightclubs[32:03] How To Prevent Artist Burnout [33:28] Could Virtual Experiences Help Avoid Burnout? [34:43] Cheryl’s Personal Wishes For Post’s CareerListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Cheryl Paglierani, @cherylpags  Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Cheryl Paglierani: I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap. [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Cheryl Paglierani. She is a partner at UTA where she represents some of the biggest names in music. She does booking for Post Malone, Cardi B, Chance the Rapper, 21 Savage, Offset, Flo Milli, Dominic Fike, and many more. But today's conversation. We talked a lot about her rise with Post Malone. Back in 2015, she met Post at South by Southwest after hearing his music and wanting to meet him in person. And she knew that there was the opportunity then to help develop a superstar. And since then Post Malone has grown into one of the artists that in many ways represents what's possible in streaming. Here's an artist who doesn't necessarily fit in one specific genre, but he's collaborated with so many and his music identifies and resonates with the vibe that is so relevant for today. So we talk about the journey with Post Malone. What it means for artists like him that are doing festivals versus touring and how she looks at some of the opportunities and advantages with both. We also talk more broadly about touring and how artists can make a tour off of a strength of a single, the importance of that. We talk about how she views social media, some of the pros and cons there. And so many other future trends with artists doing live performances. She shared a bunch of insights in this one, very relevant to where the industry is right now and where things are heading post-pandemic. Here's my chat with Cheryl Paglierani. [00:02:24] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by Cheryl Paglierani, who is a partner at UTA, represents a number of big artists in hip-hop and music more broadly. But today I want to talk to you about one of the artists you've been able to see rise up the ranks and that's Post Malone, and he sticks out because I've talked to many agents over the years and so many of them talk about that dream of finding that one artist that they can rise up with. And you found that with Post Malone and it was really inspiring hearing the story of you meeting him at South by Southwest, back in 2015, but it would be great to see and hear since then. What was the moment that it hit you that, wow, we did it. The dream and the vision that I had seen back in 2015, we accomplished it and here we are, let's keep going.[00:03:15] Cheryl Paglierani: Right. You know, that's such a funny question because we all started together, right? Like, Post was essentially my first client, like, on my own. And so through rising, like, trying to pinpoint one moment, almost every moment every step of the way felt like that because you had never been there before, so take it back to just him supporting Justin Bieber. I remember being at the Madison Square Garden shows and you're hearing thousands of kids singing White Iverson, and you're looking around and you're in an arena. And even though you're not headlining that arena yet, you're thinking, wow, this is really on the right track. And then I remember on the Stoney Tour when he played in his hometown in Dallas and we played the Bomb Factory, that was a 4,000 cap room. And at that point we were like, my God, we just sold 4,000 tickets in Dallas. We're like, we're popping, right? So you feel then that feels like a really special moment. Up until, you know, we're playing two nights at The Hollywood Bowl, that felt really special. And you look like, wow. It never feels like the end, if that makes sense. It always just feels like a new height to be reached, and it just makes us more excited for what's next. Two nights at Madison Square Garden felt amazing, like, wow. Now we just sold out Madison Square Garden ourselves or AT&T Stadium was then another one of those moments. Every time we reach one, there's another one to be reached. And we're always looking forward to that and, and planning and just excited for what the next one will be 'cause that feeling just never gets old. [00:04:33] Dan Runcie: Madison Square Garden, it was a great one because that's such an iconic venue. And I think for so many musicians, being able to sell there, being able to sell out there is huge. It's one of the biggest arenas and the most notable arenas in the country. And when looking at where a Post is now, he recently announced a tour that he has over 30 cities, whole arena tour. He's done them before. This one, I'm sure, probably felt a little bit different though, because you're booking in the middle of the pandemic. You're hearing so much, from cancellations and what venues are being available. What was it like finding space for him just given everything that happened with touring in the past few years? [00:05:13] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, well, lucky for us, like, we had been planning throughout the pandemic, right? So, you know, it's like there were certain tours where I had to rebook them and rebook them 'cause you wanted to be ready to go when tours were back. I think we had a little bit more leeway on this one for when we were planning, but it definitely got challenging with in terms of just avails. Because you're not only competing with all the other tours to be going out at this time but competing with sports and just different things that's all coming back at once. And so, I mean, that made it a little, a little bit more challenging, but also just making sure that, as we're booking, we're following all the right COVID protocols and that we're being cognizant, too, of just where people are in their lives, and how we're going to price it. And, and just trying to think of it holistically of where, not just he's at, but where the fans are at and what's going to set us up for success. And I think that we did a pretty good job. We had a very successful on sale and we're looking forward to starting in just about a month from now. [00:06:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. He's one artist where I see the tour go up, I'm like, I know that tour is going to sell out. There's other artists, not going to say names, but you'll see the announcement and you're like, I hope they can sell that one, but he's not one that I ever have that thought with. And I'm sure for you, obviously, you'd seen the, from the beginning, but in those early years, like, especially in the Post, White Iverson era, I'm sure there was a lot where you, Dre, him, you see the vision, but likely may want to sell and get people to see the potential of where it's going. What was it like selling at that perspective and trying to build the image when not everyone on the outside maybe was fully bought in and saw things the way that you may have seen it? [00:06:44] Cheryl Paglierani: I mean, I can't really say that I remember selling Post ever being hard. I think it was always about how can we get him in front of the most amount of people as quick as possible because to see him was to fall in love with him. I think the second that anybody saw him live, they would always come back to me and be like, wow, this guy's the real deal. The performance was never really a factor. I mean, I think it was really just finding the right opportunities and making sure that we were strategically building him to be able to be in a position to really build the right fan base and build to longevity I think a lot of people don't know this, but Post actually supported three times before we have a headline. So he supported a DJ called SBTRKT. It was only a couple of shows, but it still, it was like EDM. It wasn't what you would expect him to be doing at that time. And then we went on tour with Fetty Wap and so that was a hip-hop tour. So he supported Fetty Wap through, through that tour. And then it went straight from Fetty Wap into Justin Bieber. So we had built a foundation that would almost touch multi-genres before he ever even went out and headlined. So I think that it was just being strategic in terms of how do we get him in, in front of not only the most people but different types of people, because he really is so eclectic. And we wanted everybody to be able to see that 'cause he really does have something to offer to everybody. [00:07:50] Dan Runcie: That's the piece that sticks out to me the most 'cause I've had so many conversations with people and they'll ask me what type of genre do you think Post Malone is? Do you think Post Malone is hip-hop? And it's always this ambiguous question and I think that's by design. He can go and have different types of collaborators. You see it with who he's worked with. You'll see it with who's featured on his album. Can you talk a little bit more about how that piece has helped shape his career and maybe his ascension as well? [00:08:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, you just hit the nail on the head, right, in terms of who he works with. Post is going to work with artists that he's actually genuinely a fan of. I think that you'll see sometimes artists will work with people just because, oh, this is the new hot guy right now. You should go make a song with this person, or this is who everybody expects you to work with so you should go work with this person. But Post is going to work with artists like Fleet Foxes 'cause it's his favorite band ever, who I didn't even know who they were until him, so he's putting us onto them or he's going to work with artists that, that really touch and resonate with him. I think, I don't if you saw but this was record a while ago, but it kind of just started going viral. It's his video singing a Brad Paisley song, like, his videos have gone viral singing country songs, but, you know, then he can, can go make songs with, hip-hop artists. And we always laugh when we see like a headline will write hip-hop, where he gets categorized as that because he's so versatile that it, it isn't that. But to pinpoint it is difficult because he touches so much. [00:09:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I also think that his position highlights what makes the streaming era work in a lot of ways. I've heard people refer to him as a post-streaming era artist or someone that's a symbol of what's possible now in streaming. And I was talking to a friend about this recently about, in a lot of ways, we're moving past in genres. We're moving towards moods and vibes. And I think that in a lot of ways probably captures Post Malone, but it also captures what people are looking for. You see that in how Spotify looks at playlists, right, it isn't just genres. It's moods that what you're after. And I feel like he speaks to this piece a lot. [00:09:48] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, he, he completely does. It just goes back to, I think, his love of music, right? He really loves so many different genres of music and you see that come through in his music. And I think that's why he makes music that that's so relatable to so many people. [00:10:03] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of this, too, is the management of leadership behind. So it's you, who's the music agent, you also have Dre London, who is his manager, and you have Post as the artist himself. And it seems as if the three of you have a very strong dynamic that's been intentional and clear about how you're growing him as an artist. Can you speak to that in the different roles that you all have beyond the obvious pieces of where you stand there, but how you all work and how that dynamic clicks together?[00:10:32] Cheryl Paglierani: No, absolutely. I mean, yeah, of course, it's like me and Dre. And Dre has become one of my best friends in the business, like a brother to me. I mean, we have like the best dynamic, of course. It's me and Dre and Post, but we have a whole team. There's Bobby who's Post’s day-to-day, and Jay who manages everything on the road, and Austin Rosen who's Post's co-manager with Dre. And I think really we've become like a family. And I think what makes us work so well is that we all have a role and a pivotal role, but everybody's role is different. And I think, like, we all trust each other to be able to handle it. It's like if you're building a house, right, you need to be able to trust that the pillars in each position are going to hold you up and prop you up. We've been able to build like this beautiful foundation, this beautiful house together, just off the foundation of our, trust for each other and, and how everybody works together.[00:11:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it seems like it because I think it's so rare that you can see all three of you really be able to work in sync because we know how many times changes happen in this industry and how many times things shift as well. And I do think that continuity is one of the things that get so underrated. There's so many aspects of music that can be a revolving door or things change quickly. But the fact that there is, in many ways, a tight unit where the three of you can work together. I honestly wish we saw more of that in the industry because I think sometimes the continuity hurts the potential of or the lack thereof hurts the potential of a lot of artists and how far they could go.[00:11:55] Cheryl Paglierani: What's also interesting, I think, Dre and I have our birthdays are a day apart, so it's almost like, even though we're so different in a lot of ways, we're actually so much alike. We can literally look at each other almost and know what the other one is thinking and not have to say a word which has become just this beautiful dynamic between us and I mean, just, you know, working with them, their whole team, I couldn't have asked to be on this journey with better people. I just feel really lucky that they let me be a part of it. [00:12:17] Dan Runcie: No, that's special. Speaking specifically about his live performances and how he goes about things, we talked a little bit about festivals in the beginning piece, and obviously Post is headlining several festivals in the US. When people reach out or you're looking for spots now, do you even consider anything that isn't a headline slot or this point, or you're like, no, if we're not getting a headline slot, sorry. [00:12:42] Cheryl Paglierani: No, not Post anyway. I mean, he's just a bonafide superstar at this point. I can't even really think of any acts that would make sense for him to play in front of. So for him, definitely not. For others, I mean, of course with other acts, it's really just a strategy and sometimes more about the look than necessarily the exact position. You know, you want to obviously be billed properly and be in the right slot. But for someone like at Post-level, it's a headline or it's not at all.[00:13:06] Dan Runcie: That's what I figured because sometimes I'll see for certain music festivals, again, I'm not going to say a festival or names, but you'll see people slotted in. You're like, really? Well, they must have a superstar agent that made that happen because I would think that they would be a third row or there's people that are also on that lineup that I think could have been in that headline spot instead. And I'm sure that, you know, the mechanisms of so many of those things more than anyone, and probably think a lot about that, too. What are your thoughts on that piece of it and how the artists do get chosen for headline slots? And I'm sure you sometimes may see it yourself when the festival Posters come up and you're like, okay, that makes sense, but, huh, really, that person? Interesting. [00:13:52] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. And like, look, I think every market's different, right? A lot of it comes down to hard ticket sales usually, and I mean, when, when a promoter's booking a festival, there's two, usually, two things that they're looking at the closest and that's how many tickets have you sold in the market and how fast can you sell them? So while you might look at a lineup and scratch your head and say, how is this person headlining? It could be because it's that person's hometown or because that person's show in the market blew out, there could be a number of different reasons. But you know, there's certain artists that can blow out a show in LA that might not blow out that show in New York. Or a certain artist you might see headline in New York festival because they're from the East Coast or they're from the Northeast that would never make sense to headline in LA. So I think some of it has come down to digging a little deeper as to what's that artist's connection to the city or to the festival, to the market, what's their history, have, they done there before 'cause plays a lot into it. [00:14:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Certainly, there are artists that just aren't going to work everywhere. Again, you mentioned the venues that Post Malone has sold out, whether that's his hometown, doing the stadiums, or even the arenas in other places, this isn't as much a discussion point for him. So I do think that that does play a factor. There are other times where I still do see wow, you know, great agent, you know, hats off to them. But it's fascinating though. [00:15:03] Cheryl Paglierani: I think that sometimes, too.[00:15:05] Dan Runcie: It's fascinating though. And I think the broader growth. And as we've seen, especially the past decade-plus proliferation of music festivals has been great. And I think it's created more opportunity for the bigger artists to really decide how do you want to prioritize the opportunities. Of course, there's some artists that are strictly for the most part, only doing festivals. They may get the bigger guarantee up front, but there's a chance they may not be playing in front of as many true fans as they could have if they did their own concert. And there are plenty of pros and cons there, but I'm curious from your perspective, what's your philosophy on balancing touring versus doing the festival shows, and how do you look at it for the artists you represent?[00:15:50] Cheryl Paglierani: You hit it right on the head with the word you just used. It's a balance, right? So I think you never want to say, like, I don't believe it's ever too early to play a festival. Sometimes people are, you know, you'll hear that said, or it's too early for you to play or you need more momentum. But I think there's certain opportunities and certain festivals to be targeted when you're a new artist and through your journey. So let's say you're a new artist and you're ready to go do that 500 cap tour and you're ready to go, you know, start selling tickets at the bottom level. Yeah, you're probably not ready to then go pitch for the Coachella slot 'cause you want to be in the right position when you play a festival like Coachella or a major one, but you could still be perfect for the Thursday night at Bonnaroo. That is great for showcasing new artists. So I think you want to find that healthy balance of like, okay, what festivals can we target that might be in a market that we wouldn't necessarily go headline, but could still put us in front of a lot of bottoms in that market. And that's what I usually try to find from the ground up is, okay, what festivals are we targeting this year? What's going to be our target next year? What's your plan with the music and how are we building our headline shows around that so that we can be growing as a headline artist at the same time? And then with every artist, it's different too, right? 'cause some, it might not be you're building festivals into, headline or some artists it's going to be, it makes sense for them to find a support slot first. You might need more time to develop your show. You might need, you know, you might not have a full set that's long enough to headline. You haven't put out enough music yet. So I think every artist is different. It's just about your strategy to where the artist is at in your career.[00:17:12] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And especially with the balance piece of it, too. And I know that you represent a number of artists that are at different stages of their careers as well. Do you have any that lean more into the festival-heavy and touring light because I know that's another thing I've heard from many artists where they feel like touring is a bigger risk and they don't necessarily want to do that. They would rather do things a bit more on-demand or do things a bit more when the opportunity comes up, as opposed to having a set time to have an event where, yeah, they're doing a 500 or 2000 cap event that they go around. Are there any artists you have that lean towards that way? And how does the strategy shift at all for any of them?[00:17:57] Cheryl Paglierani: I just think it through my personal roster, I actually don't think I have anyone that's more only a festival-centric artist. I think, you know, just for me personally, too, when I'm looking at artists that I want to sign and who I want to work with, it all first and foremost starts with passion. Like, to me, I'm not really looking at streaming numbers. I'm not really looking at stats that most people would. I'm looking at do I love the music? Do I believe in the artist? And do I think that they can grow into arena selling headliner? So I'm always looking for that from the start. So it's almost like it would be very strange for me to end up with artists that only play festivals 'cause I always try to get involved, you know, very early. There's some artists I work with now that haven't been day one, but almost my whole roster has been day one and, and builds from the ground up. And even though every strategy is different, the goal is pretty much always the same in terms of how are we going to build longevity, how are we going to build a real fan base that wants to keep coming back and keep seeing you over and over again. If maybe the live show's not great from the beginning, the things that we can do to help you amplify your show, can we help with connecting with performance coaches, can we help with bringing production people into the team? Like, how can we help add value to get the artist where they need to be so that there's not a ceiling because if you've reached a point where you can only go play festivals, you've hit a ceiling. If you can sell the festival yourself or you get to that point, you want to be able to get to the point where you can book the area out yourself and, and do an open-air show and sell it all on your own. That's where you want to get to. So there's always going to be a ceiling, I feel like if you cap yourself there. And I say it's kind of similar to, like, artists that you see only play nightclubs because I think it can be hard, in the beginning, to turn down nightclub money. If you're a new artist and you come out and you have a song that's big and all of a sudden, clubs, want to throw a check at you to come play your song and three songs in a nightclub. Like, sometimes that's hard to turn down and they'll take that over, playing the small venue and trying to sell the tickets 'cause the money isn't the same. And so I think like that's just always the trap that I tell every artist avoid, avoid, avoid. You have to go build a fan base if you want longevity. [00:19:50] Dan Runcie: Where do artists starting their own music festivals fit in this dynamic? Because Post obviously has Posty Fest. He's had it, it's a success. And obviously again, now that we're at least coming on the other side of the pandemic, where do you see that fit in with this dynamic in that balance? [00:20:07] Cheryl Paglierani: There has to be a connection. There's so many festivals now, right? That if you're an artist and you want to start your own, you have to have probably a good amount of the draw, or I would like really advise against it. But I think that, you know, with Post and creating Posty Fest, he just had such a strong connection to Dallas and a passion for wanting to build a lineup that was multi-genre like him and, give artists an opportunity that he believes in and kind of create something where his fans could really step into his world. And we have an incredible brand team who is able to help us really turn Posty Fest into what Post world would be and bring in all of his partners. And create that without it feeling like overly branded or forced, it felt very authentic to him. And yeah, we're excited to just see how we can keep growing it.[00:20:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And especially with a festival like that, the hometown, the audience, the fan base is there. I'm curious how it's viewed from a business perspective because I've talked to some folks in the industry that feel that the artists-run festivals are almost more of a passion play project. The economics may not be necessarily better than what they could do elsewhere, but it's just actually a unique opportunity to be able to create something like that. But then others feel well, people run their own music festivals for economic gain, obviously. And if you have it there, then there is plenty of upside to be had. So how do you view it? [00:21:29] Cheryl Paglierani: Listen, what you said is absolutely right. I think for starters, you need to start it off as a passion project because to have a festival that's profitable year one, year two, usually isn't very realistic. You have to be able to build it up. With Posty Fest, I mean, we were pretty smart about it. And like I said, his brand team and my partner, Toni Wallace absolutely killed it. We were very lucky to be able to make Posty Fest profitable. And both times that we've done it, just because Post has so much love in the brand space, but it's expensive. It's expensive to create an event like that and to book talent and you just have to be willing to make sacrifices in certain places and be willing to really put in the work to build it year after year, to get it to a place where it's going to be economically profitable.[00:22:10] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the brand piece. And I imagine for Post that's huge. Can you talk a bit about how that factored into the profitability? [00:22:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Of course, as we're selling tickets, but, you know, every time we do a brand deal with Post, we would build Posty Fest into it. So it's like, okay, you're going to do your deal with Bud Light. Bud Light, we're going to need you to come onto Posty Fest. You're going to do your deal with, we had Nerf, we had Crocs, there was just a laundry list of all of his partners, but every time we would be doing deals, we would be building the festival into it. So come time for the festival, we had economics and, and money from all of his partners to come in and create activations for us, so it's authentic to him, but they're coming and they're creating activations and they're helping us create the experience. And that just took a huge cost off of us to have to create those things organically.[00:22:55] Dan Runcie: His brand partnership with Bud Light feels like one of the most authentic artist-brand collaborations. I can't think of anyone else. Like, so many people are like, oh, Post Malone being the ambassador for Bud Light is perfect. [00:23:07] Cheryl Paglierani: Perfect. Like I said, he is not faking it. He really drinks Bud Light. That's his drink. And you know, he's always going to do what's authentic to himself.[00:23:14] Dan Runcie: I could imagine what the success of that. Something else that I think has been fascinating with touring has been the influence of social media. And I think there are a number of people who have strong social media followings that people couldn't actually assume that, okay, you had millions of fans that are following you on Instagram or TikTok or wherever that would then translate to those millions of people coming out and buying tickets for your show. And while there's some correlation there, I've always thought there's a bit of a disconnect to some extent because while having a large number may be great, your followers on socials may not always be the fans who are buying tickets for your show, but I know that when you're making decisions for these shows, there's all the data. There's also that instinct factor that you have when deciding who to pitch in, book where, but for you, how important is social media and the numbers or metrics you see from social media in the live performance decisions you're making, whether that's for touring or for festivals?[00:24:18] Cheryl Paglierani: It's definitely a factor, but it's by no means the factor because there are artists that have millions and millions of followers who can't sell a ticket and there's artists who can stream really well, but also can't sell a ticket. Like, there is definitely not any proof of a direct correlation between the two, but I do think that being on socials is really important. It also depends on how you are using your socials. Are you using your socials to connect with fans or are you just posting when you have to post something, right? Are you just posting a flyer to a show or you're not going on your Insta stories and talking to them, or you're not responding in the comments and they don't really feel like, for artists, I feel like we use it as a connection point. We'll see it translate more into, you know, the live side. But I haven't seen yet where I feel strongly enough that, like TikTok specifically, like if you have millions of followers on TikTok, are you going to be able to go sell out a show? That I don't think directly correlates. I think that to build yourself and start being successful in live, there has to be the live piece there. You have to have the live show, you have to have the music, you have to have the connectivity with an audience more so than just creating like cute Insta videos that are going to go viral. But it is going to be interesting to see, I think, as we're getting back into touring and more tours are going out and if that changes at all, but I haven't seen it be directly correlated just yet. [00:25:36] Cheryl Paglierani: I'm glad [00:25:36] Dan Runcie: you mentioned TikTok because there's been so much talk about how influential TikTok has been in the music industry. It is the place where so much music gets discovered that ends up performing well on streaming, but given the way the algorithm works, you can have tons of followers or tons of engagement proposed, but like you said, it doesn't exactly translate to having fans that are actually going to buy tickets. [00:26:01] Cheryl Paglierani: There's no question, right? There's no question at all that TikTok has become super important to breaking new music and bringing awareness to new music, whether you're a brand new artist or your Post Malone, the label's going to try to push TikTok because that's where so many kids are. And that's how you can just make things more visible. When you talk about breaking records and stream, like, I think TikTok can really add value into the streaming side of things and just being heard. But in terms of it, like, translating over into hard ticket sales, I don't think there's a direct, I think it helps, but I don't think there's a direct correlation where you can say, oh, okay, if you have X amount of views or followers on TikTok, you're going to sell this room now. It's not realistic. [00:26:37] Dan Runcie: And Post has talked about this too. I saw a quote from him recently that was like if I was a new artist that was being pushed to use TikTok right now, maybe there'd be a little bit of pressure to try to find a natural way to use it or even he himself wanting to find a natural way to use it. How have those discussions been? Because on one hand he already has the fan base that was there long before TikTok blew up, but there's so many established artists that are leaning into the platform now. [00:27:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, lucky for us, Post has an incredible creative director, Bobby, who is also his day-to-day. I'm not really involved so much in the what goes on his TikTok, but Bobby's really good at finding authentic ways, whether they're out somewhere and Post is just there doing some of capturing those moments and then helping translate them over to TikTok. But even though it wasn't around while Post was on the come out, so it's a relatively new thing. I think they're figuring out really cool ways to still have him featured on the platform, and there's been a number of videos they've put up there that have gone viral. [00:27:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. There was something else earlier that you mentioned about streaming specifically. We talked about how there's some disconnect between social media and being able to sell tickets. But you also mentioned that there's some artists that stream well, but can't necessarily sell tickets as well. What are some common or things that can have that type of dynamic exist or that is the reason why that can happen that you've seen? [00:28:00] Cheryl Paglierani: The nightclub situation, I think is one that can be a total killer, right? So like, there's so many artists you'll see that will come out. They'll have a song that will get really hot in a nightclub. And instead of going out and doing the work and building the fan base, they'll go take the 10, 20, 30 grand to go to the club, just play the song. It's not their real fans. It's just people that want to party. And then they'll feel like, you know, they'll get to a point where, okay, now you've had two hits. Now you've had three hits. But going backwards to start at the beginning, to really build the fan base and sell the rooms and the money you're going to make to play a 500 or a thousand cap just feels to them like a step backwards. And so they hit that ceiling. I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap.[00:29:07] Dan Runcie: That lines up with something else I've heard you say, which lines up with how artists now can build a tour off of a song or off of a single that does really well. And you don't necessarily have to always rely on going after the short bag or trying to do the short-term things. No, if you have the single that works, you can build on that. Can you speak a little bit more about that? [00:29:30] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I think like when you're a true artist, like, I remember when we first started building out Dominic Fike's first tour and his EP was incredible. He had a real fan base. We had no doubt that the shows were going to sell. But I think the whole thing was under 30 minutes. Like it was almost going to be a struggle to get a show to where, you know, you want to be at least a 45-minute set if you're going to headline. But having the creativity that, okay, I'm going to throw in a couple of covers that are unexpected so that I can stretch this out and really go, build from the ground up and do that tour, and that's what they did. They figured out a way to make the show entertaining and interesting and with the band and to fill that time, even though it was only one project and, you know, 3 Nights was a big radio hit for him. We were able to still get out there and, and do that tour and start building it the right way with him as a headliner from the start.[00:30:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think, now, especially just because there are so many hits where you can clearly tell that, okay, I don't know if that one's really going to last, but other times he'll hear hit, be like, no, you can truly build something off of this. And that's what I think is unique about this era. And that's what I think is unique to see artists like Post and others as well who've literally been able to say, okay, I have the awareness. I have the exposure. How could we continue to build on whether you're taking your time for whether it's the album or the launch, whatever it is. There are so many unique ways to be able to continue to just build momentum and build the fan base today. And I think that's one of the more exciting things about where the industry is right now. [00:30:55] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah, absolutely. Shout to Dre and to Post, we talked about this a lot in the beginning because of course when White Iverson came out, we were getting all the clubs that were reaching out and me and Dre were totally aligned and on the same page of like, that's not what we're going to do and we're going to build this the right way. And here we are. [00:31:11] Dan Runcie: For sure. And I'm sure part of this, too, with the artists you represent is that so much of the booking and so much of the time can be reflective of just them feeling burnt out, right? Maybe burnout isn't as much of a piece on the touring side, at least for Post, just given the fact that you're touring in arenas now. He's not necessarily doing 200-plus arena shows a year, but there are other artists that are doing nightclubs or doing smaller venues that are doing that clip or potentially even. How is it with some of the artists who that clearly is the phase that they are in their career, but there's just so much more awareness right now in this industry of how do we prevent burnout, how do we support the artists without having them be on the grind that, I think, in many ways became so standard for artists in the industry? [00:32:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's actually really important. And I always, personally, when I'm putting together a routing or I'm thinking about what are we doing, I try to put myself in the artist's shoes and think would I be able to handle this? Could I play four nights in a row? Like, am I going to get burnt out if there's not a day off after this many shows in a row? We think about that a lot with Post 'cause even though you're not playing 200 arena shows a year, even playing two nights in an arena back to back and be really exhausting, and that's going to take a toll on him and on his voice and on his body. And I think, like, if you're an artist and you're getting up on stage and you're giving it your all. That's going to wear you out. So, it's always something that we're thinking about when we're routing of, like, okay, let's not make sure that we got this amount of time. We're going to fit this amount of shows in. We're going to make sure that there's a proper amount of days off. And I'm always thinking about that when I'm routing as to how is this going to physically be on the artist because that's first and foremost is keeping them healthy and keeping them wanting to do it. We never want an artist to start feeling like, oh, this is just too much. I can't take it. So we try to make it as comfortable as possible. [00:33:03] Dan Runcie: Do these VR and metaverse experiences help with this to some extent? I know he recently had the VR experience for his project, the Twelve Carat Toothache, and I know that he had had the Pokémon collaboration that he had recently. Do these types of things help a bit? Because there obviously is less travel and you could still reach an audience and potentially a growing audience based on the way things are heading. [00:33:28] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I don't think it helps per se in a sort of like taking anything off the touring side 'cause the touring's still going to be there, but those opportunities are just easier to pull off because you can do them in LA or like he did the Nirvana live stream from his house in Utah, things like that, where through the pandemic and we were able to still stay out there in a real way without having to go anywhere. So that definitely helps when there is something like that that can be done and adds so much value to your album rollout and just be really cool and really different. The VR experience, I mean, they built out different sets almost for every single, so like that was a full two-day production to film all of that. So it was still a lot of work, but it was again, staying in one place made it easy to pull off. [00:34:09] Dan Runcie: So five years from now, when Post is still headline status and is booking all the top festivals and touring around the world. What do you think shifts? Because obviously so much has shifted in the industry since White Iverson came out, streaming and all of the other types of opportunities for artists to go direct with their fans or anything else has expanded as well. And we'll continue to see more evolution on that front. What do you think will change specifically in the live performance or, more broadly, how Post and some of your other artists may go about it? [00:34:43] Cheryl Paglierani: What do I think is going to shift? I mean, I hope that one day with Post and you say, what will change, well, he's always been a one-man show. He's never played with the band. It's always him. And he gets up there and he kills it. I kind of hope that in the future we're seeing him, he might hear this and say, why would you say that? But my personal wish, I hope that like one day we see the show shift into him playing with a full band or maybe playing, you know, everyone always says to me, when's Post making a folk album? When's Post making a country album? I almost hope that maybe we see him shift and actually take a stab at a different genre completely. And just do something that's completely unexpected. Does that happen? I don't know, but it could be a shift. And I also think he has the potential and will reach stadium status. I hope somewhere in the next five years we maybe see. Like, we're able to go into baseball stadiums or something of the sort. Maybe it's not a full tour, these are just like my aspirations and my, my goals and what I want to see, whether, you know, that aligns with him, we have to discuss, but I think those are a few shifts that could be really interesting and cool.[00:35:39] Dan Runcie: Well, Cheryl, this has been great. I think that there's just so much that's happening in this space and I'm excited for you. I'm excited for Post and all the other artists you represent, but before we let you go, is there anything else that you'd like to plug or let the capital audience know about?[00:35:57] Cheryl Paglierani: Anything else I want to plug? I probably should have something for that, but nothing comes to mind. I'm not much of a self-promoter. I don't know what I have to plug.[00:36:04] Dan Runcie: Or where people can find you if they want to follow you.[00:36:07] Cheryl Paglierani: People can find me on Instagram. I'm just @cherylpags. [00:36:10] Dan Runcie: Okay. And then big things coming up for Post, obviously, we mentioned the tour, a few festivals coming up as well. [00:36:17] Cheryl Paglierani: I don't know if you saw, but we also announced we'll be doing stadiums in Australia with the Red Hot Chili Peppers in January. So we're really excited for that also. [00:36:24] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Another collab that makes a bunch of sense. All right. Well, Cheryl, this has been great. It's a pleasure. Thanks again for coming on. [00:36:32] Cheryl Paglierani: Thank you so much for having me.[00:36:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Music exec Benny Pough has shaped the hip-hop industry in a career that’s spanned from Motown Records to Def Jam to Roc Nation and now his own entrepreneurial pursuits. Benny joined me on Trapital to discuss his 30-year journey and where it’s heading next.The defining feature of Benny has been his ability to spot and develop musical talent. He’s responsible for signing the likes of Future, Jeremih, and Yo Gotti, among others. That skill was initially forged from having an ear for what would catch on the radio, but has evolved in the streaming era. Despite this radical shift in music consumption, Benny says “stars will always be stars.”After working at seven different record labels, Benny left the corporate world in 2019 and dove full-time into entrepreneurialism. He runs two separate companies — DVERSE Media and Kandiid. The former is a global music distributor and publisher, while the latter is a mobile app for creators to monetize their content. Benny also manages a diversified real estate portfolio. Like Benny’s own career, our conversation covers a lot of ground. Here’s our talking points: [3:13] How Benny Developed His Eye andEar For Talent[4:42] Differences Between Hit-Makers andSuperstars[6:10] How Has Streaming Changed Superstar Development?[7:33] Record Label’s Role in Talent Development [13:07] Inside Def Jam’s Business Turnaround During Mid-00s[16:02] Aligning Business andArt at Def Jam [18:15] Teairra Mari and Rihanna Coming Up at Def Jam[21:37] Balancing Short-Term andLong-Term Business Goals[24:39] How Did Benny Adapt To Working At Different Labels?[27:00] Why Benny Became a Full-Time Entrepreneur [28:34] How Does Benny Split Time Across His Business Ventures?[31:26] DVERSE Media’s Pitch To Artists[33:15] TikTok’s Role In Talent Development Today[34:43] Monetizing Content On Kandiid[36:07] How Benny Got Into Real Estate[38:54] Benny’s Upcoming BookListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Benny Pough, @bennypough Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Benny Pough: You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more time. Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry.  [00:00:35] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Benny Pough. He is a music industry veteran. And when I'm talking about people that understand promotion, understand what it takes to make an artist go from sixty to a hundred, this is the person to talk to. He has identified talent over the years, working at Motown, Perspective, Arista, MCA, Def Jam, Epic, and Roc Nation Records. He worked at Def Jam during one of the turnaround eras for the record label from 2003, all the way up to 2011. So we're talking about that stretch where you had Rihanna, and Jeezy, and Kanye, and so many artists that made a huge impact there. Then he also worked at Epic where he was able to see Future, and Jeremih, and Travis Scott, and Yo Gotti. And so many of the artists there. And now he is building his own company. He works at Diverse Media, which is a music distribution and global publishing platform. He also has an app called Kandiid, which helps content creators and artists connect more directly with their fan base. We also talk about some of the ventures he has outside of music. He does a lot in real estate. We're talking about some of the real estate he does, even in my hometown, which was pretty dope to hear how he understands the neighborhoods pretty well. So this is a great interview. If you want to talk about a mogul that understands each point of this industry, and with this upcoming book where he is sharing these insights as well. This is the interview for you. Here's my conversation with Benny Pough. [00:02:27] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we got one of the music executives that has seen this industry and seen hip-hop through so many pivotal moments at some of the most storied record labels. Mr. Benny Pough. Welcome to the pod. [00:02:40] Benny Pough: What's up, Dan? Been waiting, man! I don't know why you kept me out here so long, but thank you for having me today.[00:02:47] Dan Runcie: People have been asking for this one, people have been asking for this one. [00:02:51] Benny Pough: Yeah. Yes, sir. [00:02:52] Dan Runcie: And I mean, I think one of the reasons that people have been asking is because of your track record. You have identified some of the best talents in this field. Yo Gotti, Future, Jeremih, could go on with the list, but it's clear that you understand what you're looking for and you have an eye and an ear for this. What are you looking for when you spot talent? [00:03:13] Benny Pough: So, you know, being a promotions person is how I started in the business. Like, my first entry point was at Motown records, doing college promotions. And at that point, I realized that, you know, music changed my life when I was able to take a song, and from a college level, and have it played across the airways, 'cause you have to think about over the decades, the mass means of communication was radio. So that changed everything. If you got on the radio in any capacity, you know, it could take you from zero to sixty. So for me, listening to the radio and listening to music one way or another, my ear just got refined to what sounds good on the radio. So with the artists that you mentioned, I heard their music before I even met them. So it's something about, you know, obviously the spirit, you know, that ooze through them that comes out in their music that always just resonated with me. So the next step would be, you know, to meet them and obviously the artists that you mentioned, you know, from Future to Jeremih, Gotti, F.L.Y., it was something special about them that they'd already created for themselves. They just needed, you know, that opportunity to present itself for them to move on to the next level. [00:04:23] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure meeting that adds a whole nother layer 'cause you could have the voice but you're not just building someone that can record an audio track. You're trying to identify stars. What is it from meeting them in person that adds to it? Or is there something extra that you see when you're face to face? [00:04:42] Benny Pough: I think what's probably problematic now is that people can become instantaneously popular just from streaming. But never been in, you know, never really been in a studio 'cause you can record in your house. Never performed at a dive because that's not what's required. Never actually performed in front of an audience. So they're great songwriters, maybe producers, but the bar is so much lower on the entry point now, because any and everyone can do it. The difference between the people who make just hit songs or records, and the ones who are superstars is that they have the full package. Not only do they write or they perform, but you know, they have that whole je ne sais quoi, something special about them that people want to hear more and more, see more and more of them. And that's what the key is. And always has been, you know, since the beginning of music, of those people who attract and draw you in.[00:05:37] Dan Runcie: You mentioned streaming and how it is easier and how it's very different from having a hit record as opposed to being a superstar. But do you think that even some of the visual aspects are becoming easier to replicate, too? Thinking about how someone could do so much of the production of music videos, or even the visual of what they can do, whether it's through Instagram and developing a following, but there's still, there could still be a disconnect between having that piece of it as well and really being someone that can push a record label and push themselves. [00:06:10] Benny Pough: So the power is probably the best time, music and arts, the power's in the creator. You know, ultimately as a consumer, we'll choose what we like at the value point that we will or not. But ultimately as a creator, you can get in where, before you couldn't, because there were, you know, gatekeepers. So now that you have the access and the ability to take your art to the masses. It's great. Now the level of what you have, meaning, you know, whether it's your music or your visual, if people like it, they're going to like it. And if they don't, if they feel it's inferior, then that's your presentation to the masses. So ideally you can't look at it as a negative, but, you know, obviously, as you grow, and you develop, and you have success. All of those levels start to heighten as well. [00:07:02] Dan Runcie: And do you feel like this has made it easier or harder or how different it is for the people that clearly have superstar potential, but they are coming up in this era where there is more noise? But on the other hand, because some of that noise can filter away some of the artists that don't necessarily have that potential and let the cream rise to the crop, I've heard people use both arguments about what it's like for superstars right now, but what's your take on the current stars now?[00:07:33] Benny Pough: Stars will always be stars, and we're going to find them if that's the true course of action. You know, I worked with L.A. Reid, and I remember him always just telling me the story about Outkast. He didn't sign them the first time they performed for him. It might have been the second or the third, but because they had it and when they finally brought it back to him, you know, the rest is history. Did it make them lesser stars because they weren't signed the first time? No. What they went back and did was hone their skills, hone their craft. And at some point, the rubber hit the road and the rest is history, and that's happened countless times. Look how many times Michael Jackson was passed on. So I don't think the internet or that we're in a technological, you know, era that it changes the pursuit and the passion for people who truly have the desire and commitment to their art. You know, it just doesn't happen that I designate myself to be an artist today. And since I'm going to be an artist today, I'm going to be a star tomorrow, right? It doesn't quite work that way. And the people who have the wherewithal and the gifts, they're going to find it. [00:08:38] Dan Runcie: Do you think it's harder for people to hit those Michael Jackson levels though? Because I do think that he, of course, I can't think of anyone that was more famous at that particular time. And even some of the artists that you have now. Yes, some of the biggest stars you've seen, they're breaking records and streaming, but culture is just so much noisier and there's so many other things like it's hard for any one artist to reach those same levels. Or do you think that that's still possible? [00:09:07] Benny Pough: It's just different iterations of it. And I don't think you can ever take the greatness of one artist and measure other artists to that, right? Now you can look at stats and go, well, did you, did this person have this many accomplishments as is that one? Then you start getting to the, you know, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe, right? It's just all different. So it's not the same measurement, but also just realize everyone has greatness and in their time of what was available and what the market was, they exceeded everyone's expectation. So that exists and it's going to exist beyond, you know, today until tomorrow. So it's really about, you know, how do you maximize the moments and all of that is really consistent on how much you commit to your craft.[00:09:56] Dan Runcie: I agree because I think about some of the stars right now, we still see it. It just may not be necessarily the most traditional sense the way people see it. I look at what Bad Bunny is doing right now. We haven't necessarily seen someone like him do what he's doing at the level that he's doing, whether it's the streaming records or even the sold-out concerts. Or even if you look at BTS, I think there's something to be said there for just how popular and strong that fan base is. And then you have your Drakes and your Taylor Swifts, these artists that I think even in 10 years will still be some of the biggest artists of their generation. [00:10:33] Benny Pough: And that's all catalog. You know, artists that have great music, amazing songs, and are true performers. So, you know, once you get to that level, it puts you in a category by yourself, [00:10:47] Dan Runcie: Right. And so much of this goes back to the work of these artists working with record labels, and a lot of the names that we mention, they got big pre-streaming. And because of that, I think they entered a phase where record labels did do a lot more of the development to help bring them along to the area that they are now.[00:11:07] Dan Runcie: But I think what we're seeing now is, because of all of the tools and all of the do-it-yourself functions that we're seeing that artists have the ability to do, by the time you're ready to join a record label, the hope is that you at least have some footing behind you, right? This isn't necessarily the place that's going to bring you from zero to a hundred. But if you could get from zero to sixty, you sign with them and then that can hopefully get you to a hundred. And I think that's the piece of it that's a little different than even what we may have looked at 10, 15 years ago with some of the names you mentioned where it was still a bit harder for them to break out without having the additional support earlier in their career. [00:11:49] Benny Pough: That's the equivalent. I don't disagree with you. The entry points probably are, you know, different, but in some very similar. Ideally you are a thousand percent correct. You can't look to a label to develop you at this point, but when you think about, you know, some of the earliest stars they were developed outside of the label as well, right? So, you know, that kind of overlaps in that perspective. I think the root of all of this is starting with talent, regardless, whether you were, you know, in the past and things weren't as technologically advanced or right now, you know, you have the ability of all of technology. But you don't have all of the components that are going to help you, i.e. great songs, great producers, you know, and all of those true means that are going to really push you to the next level. [00:12:35] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And I think, for you specifically, you've seen it with so many of the labels you've worked out, whether it's Motown or even the run you had with Def Jam as well. And I do want to talk specifically about the Def Jam run because, as someone that loves business case studies, this is a turnaround story and you had a front-row seat to push that forward. Tell us that story and let's walk through that process. What are the key things you think that really helped Def Jam turn things around from that '93 to, you know, going on into the 2000s run?[00:13:07] Benny Pough: So the crazy thing was, you know, for me getting into Def Jam was, it was amazing. The fact that they were a closed shop. You have to realize Def Jam never really let outsiders in. Everything was homegrown. They were one of the very few labels that was truly closed shop, right? Like, the people who started there from interns elevated all the way up, you know, into the higher senior positions, I mean, i.e. Kevin Liles, who is, you know, the person who reached out to me to come over to the organization. So given that opportunity and I was on the West Coast and wanted to get back home, I was at MCA Records and I wanted to get back home. So when I got the call, I was like, wow, I can go for one of the most renowned hip-hop labels in the world and get back home. So it was a no-brainer. Shortly thereafter I came on, Kevin and Lyor exited the building and L.A. Walked in. And that was, you know, an interesting dynamic because, one, I'd, you know, heard a lot about him and knew, you know, his abilities, but I didn't, wasn't certain on what my outcome would be because he didn't bring me in.[00:14:10] Benny Pough: It was a great union because he was an amazing, as we all know, music maker, hit kind of guy. I was a promotion guru, you know, at that time in my career. So, it gave me a great opportunity to, one, work with one of the best, which also made me one of the best, great music, strong promotions, i.e. put it all together in a pot, stir it up, you got to hit artists, right? And the talent was insane. We had one of the best A&R teams in the business, one of the best marketing teams in the business, one of the best promotion teams, publicity, et cetera. And then we all played as a unit. And I think that's, what's really important in any business, including the music business. When you get a real starting fire and the goal is to really bring on the gold, it's unstoppable with incredible artists and amazing music. So, you know, that's how all of that came together. And through that, you know, between Young Jeezy, Rick Ross, Rihanna, Ne-Yo. We had Fabolous, Justin Bieber walked in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It was just an amazing, amazing time in music for us and that component of those artists, that team, and everyone wanting the big win put us right exactly where you have in this conversation. [00:15:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And the other key thing with this, too, is that you also had a few leadership changes, as you mentioned. You had Kevin Liles, and then you had L.A., and then you were there during the Jay-Z stretch as well. And I'm sure with each of those, you were able to keep things moving just with the amount of talent that was coming through, but I'm sure that there were different things, whether it was leadership styles or things that the label needed at a particular time that was able to help it get to where it was during those 2000s. [00:16:02] Benny Pough: So what's important, what people have to realize, and, you know, we put entertainment as though it's its own kind of business. It's still business. And you know, you have to learn how to manage up and manage down. And obviously, all the bosses have their own idiosyncrasies, but all of their goals is about winning. And obviously, you know, the people component is very important 'cause they're all specific on identifying the right talent, but also the right executives because true leaders understand, in the music business, the combination of both is what's going to help. You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more. time Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. So when you get that real true alignment of both business and talent, that's when you have, and you look back at it, like go through the history of all of the strong labels. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry. So it doesn't change, right, where our business isn't different. We have just a non-traditional product. [00:17:22] Dan Runcie: Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, there's something that you're trying to sell. You understand the customer, you're trying to get what you can get out there. [00:17:29] Benny Pough: Yes, sir. [00:17:30] Dan Runcie: Looking back and you talking through some of these stories with these leaders making me think of that time as well. One of the stories I know that often gets talked about going back to around 2004, 2005, Def Jam is figuring out, okay, who is the artist that we want to propel, especially who is the woman artist we want to propel. And there was so much about whether the label is going to push Teairra Marí, or if the label was going to push Rihanna. And so much of that, I know that you were, had a front row seat in, what was that process like? And what is it like now just thinking about how it went and how, whether you could discern what we eventually saw play out, or if it was still tough to know at the moment how either career would've went?[00:18:15] Benny Pough: So let's be very clear. And especially in my upbringing in the music business and how I've always been disciplined and even in just me as an individual, I don't play sides. I have to give my all to each and everyone because we don't know. Like, I can't say this one is a hit and this one isn't. My responsibility in the pipeline is to make sure that I do my best to expose the product to the marketplace. In both of those scenarios, the company was behind both artists. Ultimately, the public is going to decide who are they going to weigh in more or not. But sitting here today, I wouldn't tell you I did more or less for either of those other than provide an amazing system for them to go through in order to have the opportunity to live their dreams.[00:19:04] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And I think that's the most fair way to do it. [00:19:07] Benny Pough: Yeah. [00:19:07] Dan Runcie: Were you surprised at all by the outcome or how things played out in terms of the public's response? [00:19:14] Benny Pough: Rihanna's one of the greatest in the world. I mean, it speaks to its own, right? That speaks to itself and also realized she had, when you think about it, and there's very few artists, when you talk about classics, right? When you can go through hip-hop or R&B, like, classic albums, her first album was a classic album, right? So ultimately the people weighed in on what they appreciated from her at that point. And that in turn is about once where we started in this conversation, the artistry, it's the music and it's the team. So you got to think about a lot of artists who came through Def Jam through those years. We talk about the ones that, you know, went on and had massive success, but there were artists, too, that had great success. There were artists that make a good living and then there are artists like, it didn't work out because, obviously, the people did decide, not us.[00:20:06] Dan Runcie: Right. And that's what makes it so tough, I think, in any type of business, whether you're looking at other areas of entertainment, everything else, you could do the best thing that you think you want to put out. But there has to be some type of demand. There has to be something that is pulling artists through. And I think we saw that with the other singles that came off of Music of the Sun, Rihanna's first album. So fascinating times, it's really special to go back and think about it, especially now. I mean, who knows when we'll see the next album, but hopefully sooner rather than later. One of the things that stands out to me though, with the Def Jam time specifically, is just how much market share the record label was able to grow as well. And I wonder from your perspective, we're talking so much about balancing the business versus the art, so much of the work is focused on, okay, who can you promote? How can you push things? But there's also this zero-sum game of how can you get more market share than the other record labels that you're competing against and all of that. Was it ever a feeling like a bit of a tug of war between the art and the business of pushing these things knowing that there's this ultimate metric that the label's shooting for. But there's this longer-term aspect of trying to build and grow artists 'cause I know with other companies, it's kind of one of these things where you have the long-term goals, but how does that work with the quarterly earnings and I do think that market share is essentially that for record labels in the music industry. [00:21:37] Benny Pough: So, a lot of that's going to be predicated on leadership. And, you know, the companies that I worked for were very artist-driven. And what was most important about having the artist was making sure that the artist got their best shot and performance. And so that was a driving force for us at Def Jam. You know, it's not being irresponsible, it's just a matter of, you know, investing in giving the music, the artists enough time to breathe. Everything is not going to just be determined in black and white. Everything's not going to be determined in dollars and cents. And the people who are aligned right from the business end, gas on, gas off. Someone has to read it, how much to invest in this artist because of what the tea leaves are versus investing in this artist, predicated on what the tea leaves are. If you have something that's not talking back or something that's not performing, then you can't throw enough money at it. They don't like it, but if you have something that's incrementally or even starts to just explode, then, you know, that's a better bet to hedge your money on. And the executives in the leadership, in the companies that have a really firm grasp of knowing when to gas on and gas off on which particular artist, as well as you know, the whole perspective of the business unit are the ones that have wins in both the artistry, people want to come in because, with the success of the artist, that's what people are excited about. No one signs to a label going, oh, you have the largest market share. They go, oh, Future's over there. Travis is over there. Gotti's over there, you know what I mean? That's what they're going to say. Khaled's over there. They're going to say that they're not going to go, oh, you guys had 11 share? No, they're not going to do that. [00:23:22] Benny Pough: But in essence, all of it does work hand in hand, right? And on the other end with having successful artists, you have more market share, bigger profits. You know, now the executives, you're going to attract executives 'case they want to be there, right? Because good bonusing, good salaries, et cetera. So, a lot of that is really, really determined by the leadership. [00:23:43] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned the Future, Travis, and Gotti 'cause that is your time at Epic. You were able to see this run. You were able to see those artists just push through as well and, obviously, a different record label. I'm sure things were likely different there, but you had worked at several beforehand. What is it like when you obviously know exactly what you're doing, you understand what's required to succeed in your role, but you know, that you're shifting into a different culture, shifting into a different environment? How do you adapt yourself as someone that has already seen success in different labels, but you're moving on to other companies and still understanding that, yes, you know how to make this artist pop, but there's different folks in charge and there's different things that are happening that you also need to be aware of as you're wanting to execute the best promotional campaigns possible?[00:24:39] Benny Pough: So Benny Pough is a brand. I'm not interchangeable in that way. My core values are my core values. And if people are hiring you or bringing you into their organization, they want the best of you. And obviously, and it's no different from going from, you know, the high school football team to the college football team. You have to learn how to adapt, but football is football. And in essence, you just learned in different plays from a different coach, and what they expect you and why they recruited you to bring you over is to bring your talent and show us exactly what we need to be done in order to win. So it doesn't become that complicated and don't forget once again, it's learning how to manage. Like, you can't come in with a crazy ego. You have to be adaptable, amenable, and willing to learn in someone else's environment, but also bring your best game to play. [00:25:28] Dan Runcie: Were there any of the record labels you worked at where you feel like the culture or the way that they operated things was very different than the others? I know you were at Roc Nation Records after Epic but was any of them truly unique in this area? [00:25:41] Benny Pough: I worked at seven different labels. All of them were different 'cause it's seven different leaders. And I think, like, the common thread with all of them is that they had an insatiable desire to win. So every person that I worked for wanted to win and they all saw a different path to winning, but that was the common thread. And then systems, you know, obviously, the ones who were successful had winning systems, and the ones who kind of meandered out had different kinds of systems. So I think a lot of it comes into play to the individuals, right? If everybody could you know, coach the New England Patriots, then everybody would be doing the job, right? It's the best of the best it's going to get, you know, to do that and sit in that seat. [00:26:29] Dan Runcie: Right, exactly. And I know that sitting in that seat and having so much control over understanding what needs to be done is key with this. But I also recognize that you specifically with where you are in your career right now, you've worked at many different labels, but you're no longer working for a label. You've since left, you've left Roc Nation Records a few years back, and you are now building your own companies. Can you talk to me about that process, that transition, and why this was the right time for you to make that leap?[00:27:00] Benny Pough: Man, it's an amazing time in my life because now I have the opportunity of everything I learned, right? Think about the talent that I've identified over the years, the executives that I've groomed over the years, and realizing business and talent is something that I've been blessed to do. So now I can take all of that, what I've learned, and now apply it and reap the benefits for my family and friends. So I'm super, super excited about this time and being in the marketplace and having the freedom and flexibility to chase different and identify different kinds of talent, you know. Had I been at a major label, I wouldn't have invested in an app, right? Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be launching my first conference. Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be releasing a book. So it gives me, you know, the freedom and the latitude. But since I'd spent so much time learning the system, I am now approaching this from both a corporate perspective and entrepreneurial perspective, blended to now give the artists that I've signed as well as the ones that, you know, I manage and the business that I'm involved in, you know, the best opportunity to win because I've seen a lot of winning along the way.[00:28:19] Dan Runcie: Exactly and for you right now, you have Diverse Media, you have Kandiid, you also have real estate, and a few other business interests. How do you split your time right now? And writing a book as well, how do you split your time between each of these?[00:28:34] Benny Pough: Organization. It's no different than anything else. You know, whether you're working for someone or working for yourself, it's all time management, allocation of, you know, what needs to be done for this particular company today. You know, the things that need to be responded to, but most importantly, making sure that I'm reading the tea leaves properly because I'm the one that's investing. So it's, you know, being fiscally responsible is important and also taking the signs from the marketplace. As we talked earlier, the things that you learn along the way, just because I love it and no one else does, at some point I got to go to what they say versus how I feel because it's my resources, but I'm having a great time in this section of my life.[00:29:15] Dan Runcie: I got to imagine that's the biggest change as well, right? You're working for these record labels, part of these bigger corporations, someone else is always giving the final checkoff. And some of that may line up with what you want. Some of that may line up with what you don't want, but here, the buck stops with you, and there's sure there's so much freedom with that. How has that piece of it been? Because I know that that is likely one of the bigger changes or bigger shifts that comes with being able to run these types of businesses yourself. [00:29:46] Benny Pough: It's exhilarating and scary at the same time. You know, what you realize or what I've realized along the way is, you know, was always indicative of having someone on the team to go, what do you think, or let's go through this one more time, you know, to help you formulate that opinion because all the opinions aren't yours and all decisions aren't just made by you. The buck stops with you, but you know, you can lean in and on other different resources inside of the company. When you're independent, it may not be as rich as far as having those qualified people to assist you in the decision-making. So I'm very tactical on how I approach things. Obviously, you have to get more analytic in determining, you know, how to proceed in situations in the companies that I'm invested in. And at the end of the year, it has to make sense, right? It's the bottom line. It has to make sense in order for it to continue. [00:30:39] Dan Runcie: So let's walk through each of these 'cause I think there are ways to talk a little bit more about each of them, with Diverse Media specifically, global music, distribution, and publishing. This is your insights you're bringing. And you're like, I've been doing this for decades. I'm one of the most experienced people here. And I know what it takes to run the ship. What is the pitch then to artists who may want to, as you kind of put it yourself, they see the superstars that are still at the major record labels? You may not necessarily have the stable of the superstar yourself, but you're pitching yourself as your experience as well. How has that pitch been? 'Cause I'm sure that pitch is a little different when working for yourself as opposed to having the major label behind you. [00:31:26] Benny Pough: So it's not for everyone, but it's for the right people. I've worked with some incredible talent as an independent now that I have been able to help groom them, teach them, develop them in a process that, one, a major label wouldn't look to them for. So we have different needs. It's a smaller investment for me in investing in someone who's at the beginning of their career. And we are more of a partnership because I'm going to be very specific as well of who we're going to give my time to. And for them, they get direct contact to someone who, guess what, can make a call and help them move a little bit further and faster than they would've on their own. So I enjoy that, that element of it, and it gives me the ability to stay very connected in the music space, but also grow and develop talent at the pace that they primarily would not get at a major. 'Cause once you get on the conveyor belt, it's your time. It's your time when they say it's your time. And I think what we're lacking now is the development, the true artist development. So that's what artists get the benefit from. And it works.[00:32:26] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think, especially with the type of artist, you're looking at the sweet spot as well. There's so many artists that look at the technology medium as the means of growth or the means of exposure, right? I got to get on the streaming services. I got to get on TikTok. I got to start making reels and things like that. How much importance does that play for the artists that you serve? Because on one hand, as we're talking about at the beginning of this conversation, there can be so much emphasis on just having these songs or having these videos that are being put in this place, so you can write it up in numbers, but that still doesn't quite develop you as an artist, but it is one of these chicken and egg things. So how much of a focus is TikTok for you with the artist that you're working with? [00:33:15] Benny Pough: TikTok is pretty much the hand were dealt in the music at this point. So you can't ignore it because that's what everybody's leaning into, but then there's a whole other means of developing talent outside of TikTok. And it all depends on what's specific for what you're looking for as someone in the executive seat. I mean, if I can see it on TikTok and everybody at a major label can see it on TikTok, okay, it's cool. But everyone's not going to see the same thing. Like, although it may have all of the mechanisms, it's making all of the growth, you know, week over week. It just may not be something comfortable for me unless you're doing, you're in the commerce game, right? You're just chasing money and that's fine, right? People do that well. I've always been someone who's been more about the artistry and people who are going to have staying power. So, you know, if you get lucky and you get one that becomes lightning in a bottle, that's great. But more importantly, you know, I'm a time over money kind of guy. You know, I'll develop you, you know, spend time with you, you and I like, yo, we figured out, you know, we committed to each other. And when it's okay, we might not have made the billion dollars, right? But we lived a good life and that's equally as important as those who, you know, get a couple million, then they go away. [00:34:31] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like this lines up as well with Kandiid, which is your social media platform that you have. What role do you see it playing for artists and content creators? [00:34:43] Benny Pough: It's the equalizer. It gives artists the opportunity to monetize on their content, which was crazy. When the pandemic started, we were one of the first platforms to actually introduce that, that people could actually pay to monetize their content. And obviously, you know, OnlyFans took on a whole other different dynamic, but also, too, that was web-based that wasn't an app. Like, we were an app that was in that space, you know, to put us into a different ball game and then having Soulja Boy come on and endorse the company and is also one of the co-founders involved, just opened up all kinds of vehicles and avenues for us as we started to grow and develop in the space. [00:35:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's crucial. It's needed. And I think having the artists themselves as backers helps push it into a whole other level 'cause it goes back to the why does someone want to sign with the record label, they see who's involved with it. Why would they want to use a social media app or a new platform, they see who's involved with it. So that makes sense. The other piece of this, though, and we're talking about this a little bit before we recorded is what you're doing in real estate. You own a number of properties, even in my hometown, which I thought was pretty dope to hear about. Talk to me about that piece of it 'cause obviously very different from music, but there's so many wise reasons why it's a smart investment, but we'd love to hear what that journey was like for you, how it started and how you see it continue to develop.[00:36:07] Benny Pough: Mentally, I fell in love with real estate. If there was a passion, first thing I ever wanted to do was be a truck driver, just like my dad. And then the second thing was to own a home because we lived at a five-family home in White Plains, New York, where my parents had an opportunity to purchase this home from the owner who was moving back to Kansas. And when I realized the freedom that having a multi-unit at that time, you know, what it gave our family was exceptional. My father had the freedom, didn't have to work. My mother worked at the post office and was able to take care of us with, you know, the benefits from the health perspective and the building paid off the mortgage and put money in their pocket. So one day I said to myself, you know, I just want to be like my parents like when it's time for me to retire, I don't want to have to worry about how to make ends meet per se. So that was the impetus to this. Once I got into the music business and realized that, you know, it's one of the few businesses, especially for us as minorities, where, you know, you walk in and six months or a year, you could be making six figures, right? As a young person, there's no guidance, there's no financial planning, you know, there's no one telling you what the value of six-figure you might be making more than your Senator, right? [00:37:23] Benny Pough: As a music person, so for me, staying in lockstep with what my parents were doing, I realized making this money, I had to prepare for my exit. So every bonus I bought a piece of property, you know, I bought a single family. I bought a single condo. I bought multi-units. I bought buildings. And to the point we were talking about, you know, I had even owned up to a city block at one point. So the benefit of the business was very, very giving to me and realizing that at one day it would end, that you'd have to create no different than any other entrepreneur, people who are out on their own in their own small business, you have to create your own retirement because one day you can be making a six figures or a seven-figure salary. And then the next day that's gone. It may never come back. So you can't live in the moment of just what you're receiving. You need to think about what you're receiving, also to be planning for the day when that's not there, right? So it's important, very, very important for young people or old people who are now, in their careers, figuring out the next steps is that you should always plan for the future. [00:38:33] Dan Runcie: Well said, and I feel like I can hear some of the insights already that you're likely going to be sharing in the book you have coming out.[00:38:40] Benny Pough: Oh, absolutely. [00:38:41] Dan Runcie: So talk to me a little bit more about the book. I'm sure that this conversation highlights some of those things that you want to share, but what are some of the things that we may not have covered that are the key themes from the book that you have coming out? [00:38:54] Benny Pough: So On Impact spawned from a near-death car accident that took place in 2014, hit a tree at 90 miles an hour, sustained a level two concussion. That's when you black out from one to five minutes, L3-4 vertebrae fracture, bulging disk in my back, lacerated liver, and severed two feet of my small intestine. And in that moment, God put a book inside of me called On Impact, which is an acronym for intuition, mastery, pivot, authenticity, connection, and teamwork. And what it does is takes the reader for me with my first job that was, at 11 years old, delivering newspapers to modern day with an undercurrent of music because the majority of my life, I spent in the music business. And at the end of each chapter, I put together what's called a hit list or takeaways from each chapter for an individual to now apply to their daily lives and say pretty much if Benny could do it, I could do it, too. So it's a roadmap for interns to CEOs because I've done both. [00:39:52] Dan Runcie: Nice. When's the date for it coming out? [00:39:57] Benny Pough: September 27th, 2022. [00:39:57] Dan Runcie: Exciting stuff. Exciting stuff, man. I feel like it will be, and I'm sure it already feels like it's going to be a ton of work leading up to it, but I am sure that once you're actually in the thick of it, you're seeing people resonate with it, like that's where the real reward comes from, right? You wanted to be able to share these insights, of course, life-changing and life-threatening challenges and accidents that you have to go through. But that's what gives you the clarity to be able to share this. So hopefully it can provide someone else and hopefully many others with the same insights.[00:40:31] Benny Pough: I think what happens for us is we don't get an opportunity to get the lessons when we need them. So, what I want this to be is a roadmap of giving people an opportunity to see, guess what, there are a lot of similarities for others just like myself. And now you don't have to struggle to figure it out. This is here for you. So I'm excited to share this with the world and give those who just need that little extra push and insight. Come get it. [00:41:00] Dan Runcie: And they're in the right spot. Good stuff. Well, Benny, this has been a pleasure. We covered so much in your career, what you've been doing since then, especially on the entrepreneurial front, and also with other ventures, but for anyone that wants to keep tabs on you and follow what you're doing. Where could they follow and keep up with you? [00:41:19] Benny Pough: All my socials are @bennypough, B E N N Y P O U G H. And come visit my website. bennypough.com anytime. [00:41:27] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Benny, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. [00:41:29] Benny Pough: All right, Dan.[00:41:31] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Best-selling author Zack O’Malley Greenburg and I took a break for a new Dad-girl duties to talk about the latest headlines in the music industry — namely Irv Gotti selling a 50-percent ownership stake in Murder Inc.’s past music recordings. He got $100 million from Iconoclast for the deal, plus another $200-million credit line to fund future media endeavors Irv has planned. After the sale, Irv did an interview with Billboard and quipped that monetary-wise, the music industry is the “lowest form” in entertainment compared to film and television. Zack and I debated that during our episode comparing top-line revenues for each entertainment vertical, plus how Irv’s deal compares to other splashy catalog sales in the past two years. We also dived into a guest post on Zack’s Substack about how “moods” has become the new classification for music, not genres anymore. Discovery algorithms deployed by streaming services have pushed listeners toward moods — and away from regionalism (e.g. Houston-style “chopped and screwed”) and loyalty to particular record labels. It’s also another tell-tale sign that Gen Z is more fluid, less rigid than prior generations with their labels. Below are all the music-industry topics Zack and I covered throughout the episode, plus a special segment on becoming Dad’s in the past two months:[0:55] Baby Duties For Zack & Dan[4:11] Irv Gotti Calls Music Industry “Lowest Form” In Entertainment [6:09] Zack Still Gets Royalties for “Lorenzo’s Oil”[7:52] Top-Line Revenues: Music vs. Movie Industry[8:59] New Artist Perspective Skewing Perception Of Music Business[11:04] Did Irv Gotti’s Deal Get Made Before Market Correction? [13:08] Irv’s Deal Was For Masters, Not Publishing[13:50] Crowning Jewel of Murder Inc’s Catalog[18:23] Why Mood Is The New Musical Genre[19:26] Gen Z Uses Labels Less Than Prior Generations[25:53] Post Malone The Genre-Agnostic Artist[27:10] Did Streaming End Regionalism In Music? [29:53] Fan Attachment To Record Labels Has Disappeared[32:30] Stories From Two New Girl Dads[38:21] First Music Show For The New Babies?Tiffany Ng’s article on music being categorized by moods, not genre: https://zogblog.substack.com/p/why-mood-is-the-new-musical-genreListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z has a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least, like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know? [00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie: This episode is the first one I'd done in a little bit, took a quick break from recording. My wife and I welcomed our first child into the world last month, so took some time, focused on family, and finally, ready to get back into the swing of things. And there's no better person to do it with than my friend, Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who recently is coming back from paternity to leave himself. Him and his wife just had a kid in May, and the past couple of months, Zack and I have been talking about our journeys, both leading up to this moment and after. So, and given what we cover in both music and entertainment, it was a good time to catch up on a few recent headlines. First, we talked about Irv Gotti and the $300 million deal he did for selling his Murder Inc. Catalog, doing a deal with Iconoclast for further stuff in media, TV, and film. And this statement that Irv Gotti made about music being the lowest-monetized form of entertainment. Zack and I had some thoughts, so we broke that down. We also talked about one of the articles that was a guest post in Zack's ZOGBLOG that he had published that was about moods in music and how moods and music are definitely taking over genres, especially in streaming, and how that may shape the future of how music's released and monetized. We're getting away from these genre legacy terms like country, rap, and pop and moving more so into chill vibes, or other things that are named by hyperspecific Spotify playlists. And Zack and I saves a little bit of time at the end for Girl Dad Life, where we chatted about some of our mutual experiences and some funny moments that we've experienced so far with having kids and what's that's been like with newborns specifically, so hope you enjoy this episode. Here's my chat with Zack. [00:02:42] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back with another episode. And I'm joined by my guy who is also probably with limited sleep, fresh off of paternity leave himself, Zack, how are you holding up these days, man?[00:02:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Not too bad. I think we got eight hours last night out of Riley, little Riley. So life is definitely getting a little bit more normal but it's, it's all good. sleep or no sleep. It's just a blast. [00:03:06] Dan Runcie: Ah, love to hear it. I'll hopefully be at that eight-hour stretch soon, a couple of weeks behind you with a newborn, but we'll save some time at the end to catch up on Girl Dad Life. [00:03:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right.[00:03:17] Dan Runcie: Let's start things at the top though. We got some big topics we want to dive into, but this first one that caught my eye, and it sounds like it caught your eye, too. This quote is from Irv Gotti, who just did this huge deal. Of course, Irv Gotti, CEO, one of the founders of Murder Inc. He was able to do a $300 million deal recently with Iconoclast, where he was able to sell his share, his 50% share of Murder Inc.'s masters for $100 million. And plus he also got a $200 million line of credit. That's going to be specifically used for future TV and film projects that are likely going to be based off of some of the Murder Inc. IP or other things. But in an interview that he did talking about this deal with Billboard, he said this quote, and I've been thinking a lot about it.[00:04:11] Dan Runcie: He said, "Entertainment industry is music, TV, and film," right? "The music business is the lowest form, and I just bagged a hundred million dollars for some shit I did 20 years ago." And the interviewer then follows up and it's like, you know, can you say more? And he says, "It's just the facts. More money is made in TV and with movies than music. It’s a non-disputable fact. We love the music industry and I love the music industry. There’s money to be made. But [it’s dwarfed by] the money made from TV and film. If I have 100 episodes of television and I own it, they’ll probably put a worth on it at $300 or $400 million. With $300 or $400 million, I could sell it at a 10 to 20 multiple. That’s three to six billion. This is why Tyler Perry is a billionaire. That’s why I sold my masters and did this deal with Iconoclast." So I pause and, although I get what he's saying and I think there is some interesting discussion there, I think there's a lot of nuances there. And I'm not quite sure if I'm completely on board with him on this. That said, I think Irv Gotti is great. I always loved what Murder Inc. did, but I think that this particular statement is a bit more nuanced, especially with what we've seen happening in music the past few years. [00:05:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I mean, you know, and I think he got into some fuzzy math there at the end. I mean, I don't know, you know, to multiply what by 10? And we're talking how many billion dollars? Like, when Disney pay a billion for the entire Star Wars library, so, I know that was a great deal for them and it's worth a lot more now. I think the math might be a little bit off, but I would kind of flip it and say, you know, sure. You know, there are movies that gross billions of dollars or, you know, hundreds of millions or into the billions, low billions. But like, there aren't albums that do that. Okay, but, you know, in terms of libraries, I mean, we just saw Bruce Springsteen get half a billion dollars for his.[00:06:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, we're seeing, you know, masters in publishing go for hundreds of millions of dollars. The fact that Irv Gotti got a hundred million dollars for half of the Murder Inc. catalog. I mean, that's a wild number. No, not to sort of sleep on the Murder Inc. catalog, but, you know, it's not Bruce Springsteen. So, you know, I think that actually, the fact that he was able to get a hundred million dollars shows that the music industry is actually alive and well, right, in terms of the valuations. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure how much I, I, I agree with that, especially when you look at, you know, like for example, I was in a movie when I was a kid. The movie's called Lorenzo's Oil and I played Lorenzo. It's a, a big role, and I still get checks for 60 bucks, you know, every few months. And that's nice. And I'm sure that Nick Nolte and Susan Sarandon who were in it get much bigger checks, but, you know, they can't really go and, like, sell that catalog. You know, you don't have masters as an actor. I suppose you could go and sell the royalty streams or companies let you do that now, but it's not the same in terms of intellectual property. There's not like an equivalent to, you know, songwriting you know, like the sort of, the same kind of IP that, you know, at least, if you are an actor or an artist, or, you know, you would have access into your, to your masters in a way that you wouldn't as an actor unless maybe you're Tom Cruise and you negotiate some crazy backend deal. So, I think the grass is a little bit greener on the music side than Irv is, is giving credit for. [00:07:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the difference that you're highlighting is that it's not so much the top-line number. It's more so just how the business model under that number is distributed between who owns the underlying content and who doesn't. And I think if you're Irv and you're trying to compare this from this perspective of, if you're in music and you're trying to do a deal with Universal, whether you're an artist or you were an indie label at the time, trying to do a distribution deal or some type of joint venture. I forget exactly what Murder Inc. had at the time. But comparing that isn't the same to comparing what Tyler Perry is doing because even what Tyler Perry's doing, he is very much a unicorn in that right. There's not that many actors that are owning the underlying IP of the work that they're doing. Tyler Perry is the writer, the director, the producer for all of these things. That's why he is getting those things. And that is a very unique use case because in most cases, those are all different people in television. And I think, to be honest, TV is likely getting even murkier now because so much of the money that was going into these projects was based on this concept that these video streaming services could just have infinite growth and just keep growing and growing.[00:08:59] Dan Runcie: And now we're kind of reaching this point where people are like, okay, Netflix had 220 billion people paying $10, $15, almost $20 a month. Maybe that was as high as it could potentially go. I mean, I think there's plenties to break down there, but if those dollars aren't going to be as high as they may have been in that perspective, then we're going to see the shift. I did look at some top-line numbers, which are, I think, a good way to kind of balance things out. The music industry almost made $30 billion last year. I think it was around $28 billion last year for recorded music overall. So that does not include concerts or any of those things. I know that Irv isn't referring to that, but then if you look at the box office, I mean, that's more money than the global box office made, granted last year was a pandemic year so I know it's a bit tough to compare these things. And there's a lot more other things there, but it's not so much that this industry itself doesn't make as much money 'cause, yeah, you mentioned Bruce just got half a billion for all of his stuff. He owns this stuff and you know, that, you know, Born in the U.S.A. is going to be playing for decades, at least with, you know, as long as your Baby Boomers, and Gen X, and I guess even Millennials that are big Springsteen fans continue to listen. But I think that's different than how Irv might be looking at it. The thing is though it's not just Irv. I think that has its perspective. I think a lot of other folks have that perspective too, but I think it stems from when you are at the lowest rung of being the talent in the particular industry, I think music at that stage is likely a bit less advantageous than it may be for, you know, an actor per se. And maybe that's a bit of the difference where if you're a musician that's just signing on for a deal, it's going to take a lot longer for you to maybe recoup that money than an actor would, you know, signing on for an equivalent level size of something. But that's definitely very different than putting that as a global claim about the broader industry. [00:11:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's true, but I, I would still argue that if you are an artist getting into the game as a, as a musician, the default would be that you would probably have shared ownership of your masters. If you were an actor getting into the acting game, the default is like you get an okay chunk of money for one movie, you know. It doesn't come with IP in the way that it would. And so it's not until later in your career that you can start to say, Hey, I want to be a director. I want to be a producer. Until you start to get, or, you know, or maybe you're kind of DIY from the beginning and, and you're doing it, all of it yourself, but that's, that's so unusual. You know, I don't know. I mean, I, I think the other thing too, is that like, and maybe this is part of what Irv was alluding to, I mean, that a hundred million dollars that he got, that to me seemed like a number that was more along the lines of the stuff we were seeing, you know, six months to a year ago before interest rates doubled. And we kind of stopped hearing about these big deals. So I wonder if that deal, and I kind of asked around a little bit and I couldn't get a, a firm answer, but I would suspect that that deal, you know, was agreed upon you know, like last fall or something before the economic environment changed and, you know, and it just didn't close until now 'cause these, these deals can take six months to a year to close and, and that's why, you know, you've got such a good multiple. But like these days, you know, when the interest rate is, like, gone from 3% to 6% or whatever, I guess it depends on the kind of deals you're doing, but, you know, that's a huge difference. And it sort of like makes buying music assets a lot less interesting because you know, when just, like normal financial instruments, you know, and not to get, like, too nerdy about it, but, you know, in the bond market are generating something closer to what a music catalog would do. I think, like, these big financial institutions are going to be more inclined to kind of like lean on their expertise rather than trying to, to do these exotic things or, you know, get involved with, with music catalogs and intellectual property and that sort of thing. [00:13:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I could see that. I think the other piece of this, too, that may get lost in some of the details, especially, is that this isn't a publishing catalog deal. This is masters, at least partial ownership there, or not partial ownership, but at least the revenue generating from at least half of what Irv had, and at least in streaming, your recorded revenue from the master side is at least three to four times higher than what the publishers are getting. Of course, there have been some, there's some recent changes where the publisher royalty has increased. I think increased from 10 and a half percent to 15.1% recently. So that'll help, but still, that piece of it does in many ways, so even, let's say you were to compare this number for the Murder Inc.'s masters to let's say what Justin Timberlake got for his catalog deal. You can't necessarily compare that because Timberlake's was for the piece of the music sound recordings that were less valuable, relatively speaking, at least currently than this. So I do think sometimes, like, those things do get lost in it, but it would be interesting to see, yeah, what would that be like now if those deals were starting to shine a closer look if those conversations were happening? I think it would be interesting and also a bit unique because this deal is with Iconoclast. This isn't one of the standard players that we've seen that are handing out, you know, the nine-figure checks to these companies. Who knows what the conversations could have been like with Hipgnosis or Round Hill or some of the others. I feel like he may have alluded to that to some extent in the interview, but it was hard to get a sense specifically.[00:14:52] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And you also wonder, I mean, how much, if it was about, you know, being able to say, oh, now we have a catalog that, like, there is some Jay-Z in there. There's some DMX in there. I think there's some J.Lo in there. You know, in addition to like a lot of Ja Rule and Ashanti, and you know, but that's kind of like a trophy to have that. You know, I don't know that it's quite so often that you know, anything by Jay-Z comes up. I think it was, there's a piece of Can I Live on there, which, which is pretty cool, so, you know, that that might have added, you know, a certain premium to it. [00:15:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I was going to ask you that. What do you think is the crowning jewel of this catalog? I mean, every one of these catalog sales, it has the typical 80- 20 or the power law thing, where there is a few big songs that are really generating everything. I mean, you mentioned J.Lo. I mean, I'm Real has to be one of the biggest Murder Inc. songs they had, or maybe Always On Time with, you know, Ja Rule and Ashanti. Are there any others that stick out?[00:15:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, the Jay-Z one for sure. Which DMX song was it? It was a pretty big one. I think it's What's My Name? [00:15:54] Dan Runcie: Oh, What's My Name. Oh, that, that was on X's catalog. That was Ruff Ryders and Def Jam. [00:15:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, that was. Okay. [00:15:59] Dan Runcie: But Jay-Z, they, they were on It's Murda though, right? It's Murda from Ja Rule's Venni Vetti Vecci that had Jay and DMX. [00:16:07] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's right. Okay.[00:16:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Is that right?[00:16:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: It was, it was some, it was like somewhere in the discography. I was looking at it though. Oh, well, I'll track it down someday. We'll have to talk about it the next time. But there was, there was a big DMX single that somehow ended up on there that caught my eye. But, you know, like a lot of the Ja Rule stuff, I think. I think maybe Livin' It Up was on there. [00:16:26] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, that was big.[00:16:27] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's a huge one.[00:16:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, like Down 4 U, like Down Ass Bitch, like, you had a few of those that were in it. I think Ashanti had some big ones, too, like Foolish. Foolish was huge. [00:16:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Oh, yeah, here. Okay, it says What's My Name. It said that he produced What's My Name. So that's why, even though it wasn't...[00:16:45] Dan Runcie: Oh, interesting.[00:16:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. What's Luv? That's a huge one. [00:16:50] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's a big one. Yep. With Fat Joe and Ashanti, yep. [00:16:53] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Can I Live, Holla Holla, you know, so there's, there's some really good stuff on there. And I think you're right. It's probably, there's a couple, you know, without us having a, a look at the statements, it's hard to know, but it, it wouldn't surprise me if one of those songs is just like a sleeper hit that just continues to, I mean, we know it's a big hit, but it, it could be, like, way more lucrative than we ever imagined. Or one of those could have been in a movie, you know, more, more than the others or something like that. So, you know, I think a lot of these songs are going to be, actually, that's what one of the lawyers I reached out to about this said. He was like, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there that is very interesting from the sync perspective. You know, to the sort of like Millennial, Xennial crowd that grew up on that that would love to see it in movies, and TV, and video games, so yeah, that could be part of it, too.[00:17:38] Dan Runcie: Big on sync. Also, big on the likelihood of being turned into some viral TikTok trend. I don't know if that is a quantifiable metric they're using, but I would, I think it is. I just think of so many, the TikTok things that blow up and that era of early 2000s, late 90s hip-hop has done really well in a lot of ways. And sometimes it's so random, but I do think that that Murder Inc. sound captures so much of that. It's only before long that someone finds some, like, weird thing that happened in one of the music videos, and then that then becomes viral, and then it becomes like a whole TikTok viral campaign. [00:18:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yep. Yep. Although don't know how, how much they'll be getting paid from TikTok, but that's a whole other, that's a whole other story.[00:18:23] Dan Runcie: We'll have to save that one for our next, for the next chat. We got to see how that whole situation firms up. But so the next topic that we want to talk about is a fascinating piece that was a guest post that was written by someone that you had worked with, Tiffany, and she wrote a really interesting essay on why mood is the new musical genre. And when you picked me on this, I read it, and it stuck out because I was like, you know what? It's a hundred percent right. If you look at Spotify and you look at how all these streaming services have shifted, how music is being consumed and listened to. Yeah, it isn't rock, pop country, hip-hop. It's a lo-fi chill vibes. It's, you know, backyard barbecue hang. It's all of these super niche things that reflect a lot more of where music listening is going. And I could only imagine there's so many broader implications that it can have, but I'd love to hear what you think about it. [00:19:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been out on paternity leave and, you know, not really writing, but Tiffany who's a really great writer and, and was doing some research for me while she was a senior at, at my alma mater, at Yale. And, and she and I were actually, we worked on the same, basically, arts and culture desk on the school newspaper, you know, whatever it was, 15 years apart. So she, while I was out, she wrote this great long piece kind of talking about how, you know, from her generation's perspective, this idea that, yeah, that you would classify things by genre or really identify yourself as like a hip-hop fan or a rock fan or whatever, is all kind of moot. It's like an old people thing. And that her generation is more about moods and, and like you say, it's backyard barbecue or whatever it is. And people don't, you know, really care about genres so much anymore, you know, amongst the sort of Gen Z crowd, and she, you know, really kind of dug into some, I think, great examples of it and talked about Spotify classifications and how they put together, Audio Auras that give you your kind of, like, yearend picture of your listening tastes. And I think it's a really great point. And I think that, you know, our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things are, have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z is, is a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know? I mean, I remember when Halsey put out that song, New Americana, and she talked about being raised on Biggie and Nirvana. And I was like, yeah, that's me. Like, I get that. But that always felt weird when people were like, well, what kind of music are you into? And I was like hip-hop, and grunge rock, and like some other stuff. That was always sort of weird, but I think it's good to see the next generation kind of embrace that more and that's what the article kind of dug into.[00:21:22] Dan Runcie: The label and generation identification is a huge thing. Do you remember growing up when the labels of how we were and folks were in middle school and high school was such a thing that people went down the road, it was like, oh, you're a skater? Oh, then you listen to Linkin Park. Then you listen to this and you dress, and you wear like JNCO jeans, like with the chain hanging from the back of your pocket to the front or whatever. You're a prep? Okay, you shop at Abercrombie & Fitch. You're probably wearing Adidas Superstars and you probably, I don't know, clothes from, like Structure or like Express, and stuff like that. Like, there were all these buckets, too, and then it extended as well. If you listen to hip. You probably wore Timberlands. You probably had Nike Air Force 1s, Ecko, or whatever the popular clothes were at times. Like, all of these things and this generation and timeframe is just like, no, that's not the case. And I think this mood thing factors in a lot of that. I think we're almost seeing this to some extent with things we've kind of just seen, like regionality as well. [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Like, I've heard a lot of people talk about how from, you know, certain generations it's like, oh, like, well, people in Seattle, they dress like this. Like, you could go to Seattle, walk or like, you know, the Pacific Northwest and everyone's wearing flannel like it's a Nirvana music video or whatever. Or if you go down south, like I would visit my cousins in Florida growing up and they would be listening to Ying Yang Twins and all these other songs that were popular at the time. And we just weren't listening to that stuff nearly as much growing up in the Northeast. And it hit that vibe. And I think now, too, because of the internet, so much of that generationality piece just, or not the generationality, the geographical identity is also dissipated, too, where people in Seattle can, you know, feel no different, especially from a youth perspective, could feel no different than someone growing up in Miami or Fort Lauderdale or whatever it is. So I'm curious to see how is that going to shape? Even the legacy labels that we do have on things. I think that the Grammys is, you know, clearly an institution that has prided itself on the number of options that it's given particular artists to have and celebrate their particular genre of music based on these legacy labels. I think it takes a lot of time for those things to change, but will we see that? Could you eventually see things where I think pop radio in a lot of ways? And radio, in general, is still one of the things that's still holding onto this generational, you know, label divides much to a fault because I think there's still certain types of artists that are precluded from being heard on Z100 or being heard on your mainstream stations, so, I think that it may still take time to get there, but I'm curious to see what did that look like 20 years, 20 years from now? Will we still see the same restrictions on radio and in award ceremonies? 'Cause I think those are the two areas that feel harder to disrupt than the broader culture that already has been disrupted by it.[00:24:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And one of the other things that Tiffany wrote about in this article which you, oh, you can read it, just it's zogblog.com, and you can go through the newsletter. It's the latest post. I'll be back writing in a week or two, I think. But anyway, it's up there on zogblog.com and she said, she pointed out the IGOR one for best rap album, even though it's not really a rap album. Like, it's already happening, right, like, in categories at the Grammy's. So, right, like how, how soon until we start to change that or, or even have sort of like, broader, you know, kinds of labels. Like, what if it's like, you know, best chill album, you know? Best barbecue album? I don't know. So I'd love to see how that, how that kind of turns out. But, man, I remember, you know, in the nineties, when you would sort of put on your AOL profile what kind of music you listen to. A lot of people sort of also define themselves in opposition to certain genres. They're like, I listen to anything but country and rap, you know? That, I remember a lot of people that, anything but rap, anything but country. That was sort of their battle cry. And you know, I just don't see too much of that anymore. And I think that's a great thing, you know, like, why should you have to limit your taste? It's like, you know, you don't want to be a traitor to, to your emo, whatever, by, by listening to hip-hop. But now we have like emo hip-hop. It's great. I think it's cool that we have, you know, all these kinds of like mixings and subgenres.[00:25:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, if anything, I think I'll see the angst more for particular artists themselves and not necessarily the broader genre, right? Like, I know there's people that, you know, they just don't like Post Malone for a number of reasons. And it's like, I get it, but you can't put Post Malone in a musical category to be like, oh, I don't like this type of music 'cause I guarantee you, whatever, you know, genre of music, you want to put him in, there's going to be an artist that sounds like him, may not look like him, may not have a fan base that, you know, vibes the way that his does, but you're probably going to like something of that, you know, type of thing, right?[00:26:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've gotten into so many arguments about how to classify Post Malone. Some people say he is hip-hop, which I don't really, I wouldn't classify him as hip-hop. Is he pop? I guess. I guess that's what you'd call it, but, you know, I wouldn't really say that he's rock.[00:26:45] Dan Runcie: I would call him pop, yeah.[00:26:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Pop yeah. Pop or sad frat party or something, you know? I mean, mood. I think mood is a great way with him, too. [00:26:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, is there any other broader implication that you can think of with how moods will just continue to shift over time and how moods may play a bigger role in music, either how it's consumed or how it's monetized? [00:27:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I mean, I think really what's on my mind about that right now is I go back to what you were saying about regionalism. And, you know, I wonder if sort of this movement away from labels of genre, more toward labels of mood has to do with the fact that you know, there's sort of like, you know, national moods almost that you can attach to music in a way that you couldn't when things were sort of regional. And, you know, there was that whole moment where radio, sort of like the consolidation of radio, that kind of switch over to like the clear channel model. And you, you had sort of like the same, you know, whatever it was, KISS-FM or something like that, and you had these big playlists that were just kind of on rotation, the same playlists like all over the country, and you kind of lost a little bit of that local flavor. But actually, you know, as people were lamenting that the whole thing shifted over to streaming. And there's no regional streaming, right? And so I think it sort of follows that mood would sort of like become a new means of classification because once you eliminate the regional aspect to it you know, I don't know, it's, it's sort of like it maybe unnecessary movement to happen over time. And I think, you know, There's some cons to losing the regionalism and, you know, you get some unique sounds and certainly within hip-hop, it was really cool to see like Houston versus Bay Area, you know, like very specific microclimate-type sounds that you could get that, that, you know, within kind of bubble up and percolate into different like more mainstream hip-hop sounds. But you know, then again, I think it's cool to just other genres meld into other genres and have that be kind of the mixing that happens too. So, you know, pros and cons, but I think, I think there are a lot of pros to the mood thing over the genre label thing.[00:29:00] Dan Runcie: So before long, we're going to have to pour some out for the dirty south hip-hop playlist. Got so much play over time.  And maybe this regionalism trend or trend away from regionalism is just the way things are going. This is a sports analogy, more so, and there's other reasons behind it. But I look at what's happening in college sports right now with these major teams joining the Big Ten, joining the you know, or the Big East no longer really being a thing, and how so much of that is just a sign of where things are right now. And so much of what people really appreciated about what these conferences could tell you about a particular place in the country, that's not necessarily going to be the case if, you know, Texas and its whole culture is coming and joining, you know, joining the ECC, right? It's just very different. [00:29:53] Dan Runcie: And I think to bring this conversation full circle, too, it's like, I've heard through the grapevines about record labels that had wanted to start their own metaverse experiences and being like, okay, this is the record label's metaverse experience. And then someone wisely told them, Hey, no one cares about your record label. Like, that's not the draw here. Like, I mean, in the folks that are inside the industry, of course, you can share the accolades and stuff like that. But the fans care about the artists. They're not going to be drawn. Like, the days are done of people being like, oh yeah, no Def Jam, like, in the heyday, I'm there. Like, that's just not how it works anymore. [00:30:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, I mean, if you're really in the business, you know, which labels have which ethos. But, you know, it, it really has blurred together more and more. And yeah, I think in the old days, you know, people would be like, oh, I'm an Atlantic records fan. You know, because when they pulled out that vinyl, you know, they saw that logo, and they knew that there was a certain type of artist and that Atlantic Records were a curator of the type of music that they liked. And maybe it wasn't the same genre always, but there was, you know, they knew that it would be good. But if you're a casual listener, there's not really even an opportunity to easily know what label anybody is on. So why would you care? And I think, especially since you know, I mean, I think there was a heyday in the nineties of hip-hop artists shouting out the record labels that they were on or that they owned and that was sort of, you know, important. Definitely, like Ruff Ryders had a very different ethos from Bad Boy. And, you know, you might classify yourself, you know, more in one bucket or another and identify with that. But I think so much of that has just dissipated in the streaming era, 'cause yeah, you're not looking at a physical thing. So you know, who knows, who cares what labels anybody on, and why the hell would you really want to go to an individual label metaverse thing? I'm glad somebody told them that they shouldn't be doing that anymore. [00:31:43] Dan Runcie: Definitely. No, definitely. All right. Well, we saved some time at the end for the section that's near and dear to both of us, as, you know, if you followed either my writing or Zack's writing recently, you know, that we both had kids very recently. So Zack had his daughter in May. I had mine in June, and it's been great to just, you know, connect and bond and hear more about how things were for both of us leading up to this point and now after. So I figured now that we're on the other side of it with relatively newborn and young children, we could have a little section here called Girl Dad Life, where we each share one interesting or funny experience that's happened for both of us trying to navigate fatherhood here. So Zack, I'll let you start. What's your experience been like? And what's yours?[00:32:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, less than a, like a specific story, it's really more about an overall vibe mood, if you will. Man, I know it sounds corny, but the moment you become a parent, this compartment opens up inside of you and it's just filled with a new capacity to love that you didn't know was in there. And it just is like overwhelming and beautiful and is, is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I think that one of the things, you know, like I think the best advice I would give is, is that there's no, like, right way to do it. And people have been having babies for a very long time without all the gear and whatever, and we've survived, as the human race. But I think the thing that, that always surprises and delights me is that you know, Riley, despite being eight weeks old, I mean, from the very beginning, has been a little human who, who knows what she wants. And it's like pretty straightforward. If she's crying, you know, she needs to go to sleep. She needs food or she needs a diaper change. And if she doesn't like that, it's time to put on, like, any number of different songs or albums that she likes. And she's, talk about a musical omnivore. Oh, my God. She loves, like, Shirley Bassey, Big Spender. She loves Biggie, Mo Money Mo Problems. You know, she's really like, no genre constraints when you're an infant. And I think it's just really cool to see that, you know, she could be crying and then that beat comes on and she starts smiling, you know?[00:34:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I would also say like, I, I read this book called Bringing Up Bébé, and it's all about the French method of child-rearing. And they're really big into this idea of, like, the baby is a human with thoughts and preferences the minute they come out of the womb and sort of just like paying attention, you know, and, and also giving them a second to try to figure whatever it is out. Like, if your baby starts to cry, you know, don't necessarily just, like, drop everything, rush in and, you know, give your baby a second to try to figure it out. And sometimes they won't. And then you go and tend to them, but, like, if you don't give them a chance to figure it out as babies, then they'll never be able to sort of figure it out on their own as adults. So I thought that was a really cool insight. How about you? [00:34:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's funny. You recommended that book to me, a couple of other friends did too. And I read it and yeah, it was a really an interesting read and it was a good reminder of, like, yeah, people have been doing this for plenty of years, and just because your baby doesn't have the newest, fanciest insert whatever, stroller, bassinet this and that, like, the fact that you're thinking about this to this extent means that you'll probably be fine and the baby will be fine. But a few funny stories that we have that I could share, so one of them when we were in the labor delivery phase, one of the folks that was in the room with us, she was a volunteer doula that was helping with a few things. She had asked me, she was like, oh, did you want me to take pictures? Because she could see I was trying to, like, multitask. My wife had wanted me to take some pictures and I was like, yeah, sure. So then not only did she take pictures, she took a video of everything, from like the moment of, you know, when my wife started pushing to everything after. And then I remember like when, you know, my wife was still recovering, I watched it, and I was like, oh wow, I did not realize she captured everything. And then my wife was just like, I do not want to see that. And then I think she heard me watch it. And then she was like, okay, I have to see that. She was like, was that me? Like? I was like, yes, yes, that was you. But it's okay. You know, completely normal, unexpected. So that's, what's there. But, yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more on, you know, everything from the love, life-changing perspective, you know, something we had wanted, and, you know, it's been so good from that perspective and just pick it up on cues and stuff. There are definitely a few funny moments that we'll always crack ourselves up as 'cause you have to, right? It's like, I mean, you know, we both know what it's like with the whole sleep deprived, everything and, and all that. But you do start to notice the baby's patterns and stuff. And like how they'll react to, you know, when you're either about to feed or when you're about to give a bottle or any of those things and just the instant reaction, so. It's something else. But, you know, it's been good. I mean, we're recording today. Today's actually one month since she was born. [00:36:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, my gosh. [00:36:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Time has is flown by, time has flown by. And this is, like, the first podcast I had done since then. Everything else up to this point had been pre-recorded stuff we planned, so slowly getting back into the swing of things. I think I'll most likely be back in like a full-time perspective, maybe sometime later this month, but I think, you know, just going slowly week by week there. It feels good to have the work stuff to mix in with everything, but like, life-changing in the best way.[00:37:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, well so you're coming up on five weeks and actually one of my favorite moments so far happened at five weeks. My wife and I went out with Riley  and we went out for dinner at a sidewalk cafe in New York. And, you know, Riley's, like, sleeping, we're having a great time and chatting and eating. And you know, after maybe like an hour, she starts crying, and so I take her out and I'm kind of rocking her, and she's crying. And there are these ladies sitting next to us  and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.  And they're both like, no, really don't worry, we have babies at home. And my wife goes, do you have any advice for us? And the one lady goes, how old's your baby? And Danielle says five weeks. And she goes, honey, you don't need any advice. You're at a restaurant with the five week old.  Like, God bless you.  And that was exactly, exactly what we needed to hear. And I think it's also like a great indication of, you know, your old life isn't over. You could still do stuff. You just have to plan it a little more carefully and be flexible. And  I was shocked like if you had told me a couple months ago that I'd be doing that at five weeks, I wouldn't have believed you. But it's been really cool to just have the summer to chill out and spend time with Riley, and it's so cool to be having like the same timing as you would kind of like  go through the milestones, so. [00:38:18] Dan Runcie: Definitely. When do you think you'll bring Riley to a music festival or some type of event like that where she's wearing the headphones and you and Danielle enjoying yourselves?[00:38:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: We already got her headphones.[00:38:31] Dan Runcie: Ear muffs, I should say. I said headphones.[00:38:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, right, right. Ear muffs. Well, we put them on, we did a trial run on the 4th of July. And initially, she smiled a lot and I think she thought they were pretty cool. And then she was like, get this shit off of me. So I don't know. We actually were thinking of venturing into Central Park to SummerStage. A couple of weeks ago, I think Trombone Shorty was there. And then our plan just got blown up with like the various feeding schedules and things like that. So I don't know. I think we're ready to try. I think it just has to be a SummerStage thing, and it has to be like not too hot or too cold, and go for it. But I think the first time we're just not going to buy tickets. We're just going to stand outside, and see how it goes, you know, for like a half an hour. And then if that's okay, then maybe we'll work our way up. But yeah, I mean, so great to be in a, in a place where live music is just, you know, a short walk away. She hates being in the car, so it's a good thing we're in New York. [00:39:29] Dan Runcie: Perfect. No, that's great. [00:39:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: When's your first concert plan? [00:39:34] Dan Runcie: It's funny because last year Outside Lands here in San Francisco was in October. So in my mind, I was like, oh yeah, we could do it in October. But then I forgot that it was a pandemic year and Outside Lands is in August. So that's like two weeks from now. It's, like, the first weekend in August that Outside Lands is, and a concert might be a little much in, you know, two weeks if you're listening to this one week from recording. But I'm hoping that, you know, some early fall, hopefully, we could do something. [00:40:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Fingers crossed for both of us. [00:40:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. Well, Zack, this is a pleasure. Appreciate you coming on. We'll make sure that we link to Tiffany's post in the show notes and, yeah, so next time, we'll hit you up and then, you know, we can definitely save some stuff for our next Girl Dad Life quarter, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of stuff happening in the industry. Everyone's on vacation right now, relaxing, but soon enough things will be ramping back up. [00:40:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen. Well, thanks for having me on Dan as always, and best of luck on fatherhood on your end, too. [00:40:31] Dan Runcie: Likewise. Thanks, man. [00:40:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right.[00:40:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Twenty-four years after their debut album, Black Star — the duo of Talib Kweli and Yasiin Bey — is back with its sophomore release, “No Fear Of Time.” Talib joined Trapital to discuss the long-awaited return album (which dropped in May) and why it was released exclusively on the paid-subscription podcast platform Luminary. Spurning traditional streaming platforms like Apple Music or Spotify was about serving its true fans, Talib told me during our interview.The pair was already in business with Luminary, hosting an original podcast “The Midnight Miracle” alongside Dave Chappelle. The way Talib sees it, the group’s most dedicated fans — one’s that care about them on a personal level beyond just spitting bars — were already rocking with them on Luminary. And after a career that’s spanned four decades, Talib is more interested in engaging his core fanbase rather than reaching the masses. Disruptive art is on-brand for Black Star. Similarly, Yasiin’s latest solo album was exclusively distributed inside a 10-week art exhibit in Brooklyn. For Talib, he’s blended different musical genres and sounds his entire career. “As an artist, it’s my duty to try everything I can,” he told me on this episode. For a closer look at Talib’s creative and business approach, you’ll want to hear our interview in full. Here’s all our talking points during the episode:[3:16] Black Star’s New Album “No Fear Of Time”[4:10] Why The Album Released Exclusively On Luminary Podcast Network[8:07] Why Talib Moved Away From Patreon[10:37] Art Vs. Business[14:11] What Talib Has Learned In Different Creative Pursuits [15:55] Yasiin Bey Makes Talib “Step Up”[19:23] TikTok’s Influence On Modern-Day Music[23:00] Why Talib Avoided Clubhouse [25:12] Talib Doesn’t Miss Twitter[29:41] Speaking Out Against Online Trolls[33:51] Putting Out Music On “Own Terms”[35:24] Talib Did 200 Shows A Year For Two DecadesListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Talib Kweli, @talibkweli Sponsors:beatBread is your music platform to get funding and stay in control. You can get advances from $1,000 to $2 million, and you keep your masters. To learn more, go to beatBread.com MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Talib Kweli: Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you can get all my mixtapes for free. You can get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying?[00:00:16] Talib Kweli: Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album with all this free music you're getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this?[00:00:42] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:01:03] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the one and only Talib Kweli. He is one half of Black Star which is back with its second album since their debut 24 years ago, 24 years. It's crazy how long it's been. But it was great to talk to him about why he chose to release it now and also why he chose to release it exclusively on Luminary.[00:01:25] Dan Runcie: Luminary is a paid audio platform, specifically known for podcasting. So we talked about that decision, why it was important for him and Yasiin to release it on a platform where they already had a podcast and what that means for him moving forward. And what it ultimately focuses on is the quest for autonomy and control and independence in being able to reap the rewards that come from it.[00:01:49] Dan Runcie: This is nothing new to Talib Kweli. He's released music on his own website, Kweli Club. He's used Patreon as well to release his music. So we talked about what the decision was like to release on Luminary and more broadly what this means for him as an artist. He's someone that has toured a lot over the years.[00:02:07] Dan Runcie: So we talked about what it's been like since the pandemic. What it's been like finding the right sound and themes given so much of the conscious rap that Black Star and Talib himself were known for over the years. And we talked about a whole bunch of other trends in the industry. Great conversation, really insightful.[00:02:24] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Talib Kweli. All right. So today we have the one and only Talib Kweli, one half a Black Star, which is back with its latest album, No Fear of Time. So the album's been out for a little bit, man. How are you feeling? How do you feel about the response? [00:02:41] Talib Kweli: I feel grateful and blessed, and I'm happy that the fans have gotten a chance to hear it. I've been listening to it or iterations of it for a number of years now. And I'm just happy to have gotten it out. [00:02:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I bet. I think too, I'm glad that the fans are hearing it 'cause one of the big discussion points about the album, which stuck out to me, was how you chose to release it. And I give you so much respect for doing it on your terms and not necessarily following the main path because we all know that artists have their own autonomy and independence. Like, you don't have to just do the standard thing. So credit to you on that. [00:03:16] Talib Kweli: Well, yeah, you know, all praises due to the most high and really, I give the credit to Yas he was the one that really stuck to his guns on that. You know, my music is widely available or many platforms, not all of it, you know, some, some things I have exclusive, but we've had offers as you can imagine all through the years to ways to put out the Black Star album in a more traditional way.[00:03:37] Talib Kweli: Yasiin stuck to his guns on that. And by default, just me, me being in a group with him, I benefit from that. Because the situation absolutely was a beneficial situation to me and, to be frank with you, one of my most favorite situations I've been in business-wise in terms of my relationship with my art and how it gets out to people.[00:03:59] Dan Runcie: That's good. That's good to hear because I know that you've done a few different things independently. You've released albums on your own website before, you've done Patreon. What made you choose Luminary this time? [00:04:10] Talib Kweli: Well, we were already in a very fruitful relationship with Luminary due to the fact that we had the podcast on Luminary with Dave Chappelle, the Midnight Miracle Podcast.[00:04:19] Talib Kweli: And it was attractive to us, the idea that fans who are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, fans that are already spending money with us, fans that are following us enough to know where we at, fans that are interested in our conversation, right? Fans that are interested in us as men, as human beings and not just like feed us, feed us, feed us art, feed us content, but fans that are really interested in what we think and how we see the world and how we see art. [00:04:50] Talib Kweli: Those fans, I feel like, that niche was either already on Luminary rocking with the Midnight Miracle or if they had heard about the Midnight Miracle, that would be exciting to them. And so just automatically it weeds out the people who are like, Nah, I'm not interested in you as a human being. I'm not interested in how you feed your family.[00:05:11] Talib Kweli: I'm not interested in your, your thoughts on the state of the industry. I just like them bars and the beats. I just want to hear the music. But that's not the fan I want, you know, and that's not a fan. That's pop music. Pop music is like a blanket, trying to blanket and cover everything and get every single ear.[00:05:28] Talib Kweli: And I don't need every single ear and I don't need all eyes on me. I just want to rock with the people who want to rock with me. And that, that's the first thing beyond the fact that, you know, the business of Luminary is, that we're in is a fair arrangement. It's not, you know, it's not ownership.[00:05:45] Talib Kweli: It's just fair. It's the antithesis of what happens with most of these streaming networks, most of these DSPs. So it's, it's just a, it's a good situation. And it's not, you know, the news was, was announced that Dave Chappelle at other people had been invested in Luminary. So it's not just something where it's like, we're asking people to come to something that we personally don't put our money where our mouth is, you know what I'm saying? [00:06:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Because that's what I saw. I saw that Dave Chappelle was an investor. I assumed that maybe you and Yasiin were as well. And 'cause I know some people, I wondered, okay, well, if I was going to do $5 a month, is that $5 that I could just put directly in Talib's pocket?[00:06:25] Dan Runcie: But you're like, Hey, we also want to support the people that have clearly been with us, paying for Midnight Miracles, paying for our content. So it's not just about the monetary aspect. It's about being able to share and celebrate with the people that have already been with you. [00:06:39] Talib Kweli: Yeah, exactly. And I can't speak for Yasiin's investment to what he do with his money. You know, that's, that's really his business. I really don't know. But for me, I, I have Kweli Club, as you mentioned, and I'm very proud of Kweli Club, but people are not there. You know, I've never been on Bandcamp. I just started a page on Bandcamp this week for the first time because I've heard about Bandcamp.[00:07:02] Talib Kweli: But in my mind, I'm like I could do that with Kweli Club. I could have my own Bandcamp. And Kweli Club is still rocking and is a unique experience to sell books there, there's product and information and things you could get from me there that you can't get no place else. But now you can also get my music, some of it on Bandcamp and the Black Star album is on Luminary. And I think I'm going to probably do some more things with Luminary. [00:07:23] Talib Kweli: It has all these other podcasts and it's like, whether you're into those podcasts or not, right? Like, you might not want to hear Trevor Noah, or Roxane Gay, or Russell Brand, or some of the other podcasts they have there, or the People's Party, or Midnight Miracle. But you can't say, well, we're just asking you to pay for this album. You can't say that 'cause that's not accurate. What you're paying for, you're getting a lot more than an album. [00:07:47] Dan Runcie: I agree with that. And I think the distinction here, too, that I think about, I know you mentioned on your website, of course, you could do it there, but that's not necessarily whereas many of the fans are, as you mentioned, how does this compare to Patreon? For instance, I know you've used that in the past to release art and release your work specifically.[00:08:07] Talib Kweli: I respect the Patreon audience, and the Patreon people, and the people who started it. It's a very good idea. That is very artist-centric. But for me personally, it was Patreon just like everything else is based on your level of engagement. It's a social media platform, right? So the more you engage there, the better it's going to be.[00:08:25] Talib Kweli: And they got, what, the Discord. They're plugged in LinkedIn with, and it's just for me, we're already engaging on other social media apps to then take that time. And I engage where I enjoy, right? I don't do it just for business. Like, I'm talking about things I enjoy. And also that, because I enjoy the engagement, it's also rewarding to me.[00:08:45] Talib Kweli: It brings followers and listeners, whatever, but you just to add time to do it on Patreon, I didn't, I couldn't get into the engaging in the social media part of Patreon. And I feel like for me personally if you're not going to, I feel like if I wanted to engage to the level of some of the other creators on Patreon, I probably would've done better there, but my interest never, never quite got to there.[00:09:11] Talib Kweli: And so that's what this is, there's no disrespect to that platform. I just think it's a personal taste or what you enjoy doing. And I see, I see people who do very well on Patreon. [00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like for you specifically, we are talking about being able to invest in a platform, not just with your money, but with your time as well.[00:09:32] Dan Runcie: And if you're going to get the most out of a platform, you got to put a lot into it. And you already had work in luminaries. So I feel like that connection was there for you. And this also makes me think back to when you had released your Gutter Rainbows album. This was back in 2011, and I feel like at least of what you had written at the time, this was a bit of a, a turning point for you because I think what we're talking about is the autonomy, and the independence, and the impact of that, especially from an economic perspective where you're like, you know, you put up your own money, you tripled your investment in a few months, and you're like, even at the more commercially successful albums you had before that, you never saw something like that. And I feel like that shaped a lot of your experience and outlook forward.[00:10:15] Talib Kweli: Yeah. And it's even in 2022, it's even more like that. I'm still learning, and growing, and bending, and shifting. And the space I'm in now is even a lot more independent than I was when Gutter Rainbows came out. Now it's just like the industry's completely broken down. Like, when Gutter Rainbows came out, it was like on the way to really, really breaking down.[00:10:37] Talib Kweli: But now it's completely broken down. It's like the wild, wild west. And it's like really about what you invest in yourself. It's really about focusing on the business aspect of it, like where you completely leave the ego out of it. And that's so difficult for a lot of artists because a lot of art can be, for better or for worse, ego-driven. And it can be, you know, people say that art is reciprocal. You want people to like your art, you put it out in the world, and you search around to see who's feeling it. And that could really have an adverse effect on your ego and what your value system is, right?[00:11:10] Talib Kweli: And, you know, me as an artist personally, I've spent money. I've invested in things that I knew I wasn't going to see no return on, over and over and over again, just for the sake of the art, just for the sake of the culture. And I'm not just talking about my art. I'm talking about other artists on Javotti Media, you know, there's things that I've invested in and I'm like, I don't see a path to making a profit here unless by some stroke of luck or miracle, something, someone feels as strongly about this art as I do.[00:11:39] Talib Kweli: And it gets a placement somewhere. Someone picks it up for a movie or something, like that's possible, or use it in a commercial, stuff like that. But I mean, those are long shots. That's not a guarantee. That's not like a plan for success, unless you're going into those situations where you're, you're knowing how to pitch those things and have those relationships, which I did not and do not, you know, so yeah.[00:12:02] Talib Kweli: My thinking on it now is not that at all. Because I've done that. I've done the artist thing for so, so, so, so long, and I'm not really a businessman at all. I'm a businessman by default. I'm a businessman because I have to be, I love, I love this art so much. I love this culture so much. And in order to sustain myself, in order to live the life I want to live and to feed my family, offer this art I had to learn a certain degree of money management, time management, business management in order to just do what I do, but I don't enjoy it.[00:12:32] Talib Kweli: and this is why this conversation was in, in doing this podcast was interesting to me because I think it's very important whether I enjoy it or not.[00:12:41] Dan Runcie: I think that's an important distinction, because I do think that we see artists now that clearly you could get the sense that music is an afterthought for the bag that they're trying to get. But at the end of the day, I still believe that most of the people in this want to do it primarily because they love the art and they are much more aligned with you where it's like, they had to do this because they didn't want to get, you know, taken advantage of by the system.[00:13:05] Dan Runcie: They didn't want to not have things work out in their favor. So by default, you have to have some, you know, cursory level of knowing what works and what doesn't. And as you kind of mentioned earlier, that bar has increased a lot since Gutter Rainbows, that has increased a lot since so many of these things.[00:13:22] Dan Runcie: So the landscape forces you to do that, or else you may likely get taken advantage of unless things work out luckily in your favor.[00:13:31] Dan Runcie: I think, too, for you, something else you mentioned with this, just thinking about needing to reach so many fans, if you are relying on this major system, so much of that relies on taking you away from the core people that are really rocking with you, because if you're trying to reach the masses and you're trying to do what a major label may want you to do to try to reach the masses.[00:13:53] Dan Runcie: then you may have, they may want you to either shift your sound. They may want you to try to do all these things, which further take away from the autonomy and control that you clearly want to be able to have. So I get the sense that this more recent stage of your career has likely been more freeing from that perspective.[00:14:11] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I mean, as an artist, I really, really, really want to try everything. I've definitely tried in my music to make music, to take aspects of what I do, who I am as an anti-racist person, as a pro-black person, as a person who likes a certain type of what they call underground hip-hop and take those sensibilities and stretch them, expand them and find global audiences.[00:14:34] Talib Kweli: And I've worked with artists all over the world from different genres. I've tried many different styles. I've sang. I've done double time. I've done, you know, I've round over trap beats. I've done it at all. I've tried every single thing because as an artist, not only is that my right, feel like it's my duty to try everything I can.[00:14:52] Talib Kweli: But in that trying, what I've learned is is that the more I try different things, the more I start to lean towards being comfortable in being the best at what I do, finding that thing that what it is that's unique about me and finding that. And I've tried that through my career.[00:15:09] Talib Kweli: People, there's albums of songs, things that people are, like, maybe be like, I don't like when Talib did this, or I don't like when Talib did that. And some of that, some of it worked and some of it didn't. There's some of it that I love that people hate. And some of it that people hate that I love, I don't even know if I just said the same thing twice, but you know what I'm getting at.[00:15:27] Talib Kweli: But in this state, business-wise and creative-wise, I'm closer to the vest and more about what is it that I do best. And try to put that on display. [00:15:40] Dan Runcie: Right. And that last piece you talked about in terms of doing things you loved that the fans didn't like, or the fans not doing things you liked, but then you actually liked it yourself. Did any of that influence how you and Yasiin went about this latest album? [00:15:55] Talib Kweli: Well, the good thing about Yasiin is that he try, he does try as much as I do. He tries different styles. Absolutely. I've heard him rap and sing on all different types of things. But what really helps shape the Black Star sound is I'm the steward of the beats and the administration.[00:16:12] Talib Kweli: Like, I'm going out and finding the beats, and looking for producers, and booking studios. I'm doing all that. But what Yasiin is doing is he's trying to get closer to God in his lyrics. You know, all his albums, all his projects start with Bismillah and all his bars and where he is trying to go lyrically is always about a higher level of self. And trying to get closer to God, whatever that is for you. And so it makes me step up, frankly, and it doesn't make me just step up, but it makes me because let's not get it fucked up. Like I don't slouch from my, on my other projects. You know what I'm saying? So it's not just about stepping up, but it's also about the focus.[00:16:54] Talib Kweli: It's just different. And it's like that when I worked with Styles P, it was a different type of focus. When I worked with 9th Wonder in them, it was a different type of focus. When I work with Hi-Tek, it was a different type of focus and, you know, even on my solo albums, even the producers I work with, whether it was DJ Scratch or Kanye, will.i.am, whoever. Like, wherever I go with that person is is pulling some out of me. And what Yasiin pulls out of me is wanting to be closer to God. [00:17:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I definitely get the sense of that. And even listening to y'all two conversations, hearing it from the album and even just, you know, his own evolution with religion, I always got the sense that, for you two, like spirituality and the importance of that was always going to have a theme through its music.[00:17:36] Dan Runcie: And it's been interesting to see how, like, that piece from a tonality has evolved over time as well. The debut album you had, there were so many things that were timely to that era. And I think in this album, too, we're kind of seeing so much of it because I think that there's a lot of things, whether it's about, you know, black liberation, freedom that I think were relevant then, relevant now. However, it looks different in a way that I feel like you all are able to keep a lot of the same themes, but have more of a modern shift to it, which I don't think necessarily applies to a lot of people that are still creating music from the late nineties and putting it out today.[00:18:13] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I hear you. And I think that was very intentional on our part. This album was formed over a lot of conversation and, you know, it's 24 years since the last project in them, you know, there was a lot of attention to detail. A lot of attention to detail, but also with the idea that it's got to sound loose. It's got to sound organic, and raw, and loose. It can't sound overproduced. [00:18:37] Dan Runcie: Right. And it has to be timely as well in a way that it can both stand, you know, the test of time. But it also, you know, whether you're talking about millennials and how people are relating to particular things, it has to relate to that piece.[00:18:51] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that resonated with me, at least, for being able to hear things as well. But there was something else you said even earlier in this conversation that I was thinking about in terms of doing things and you always willing to try things, whether it's going with EDM, working with different producers. I'm curious, how does that shift with looking at different formats as well to put out music? Because I know that there's this ongoing debate right now about artists and whether or not they should be forced to use TikTok or not, and whether or not people like to use TikTok. How do you feel about that?[00:19:23] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I was watching the Billboard Awards and that's when I first, I knew in the abstract that everything was moving towards TikTok, right? But watching the Billboard Awards, it hit me when they were introducing every single artist that was popular. Most of them I hadn't heard of or heard their song, but every single thing they were announcing was like, this is how it performed at TikTok. And for how I grew up, that was the radio.[00:19:43] Talib Kweli: And so I was like, now we're an era where the radio is not on his way to be obsolete, but completely obsolete. And let me be clear. I don't mean radio as a concept. I mean, commercialized pop radio and that system. Because clearly what you're doing is radio, you know, what I'm doing with People's Party and in Midnight Miracle is radio. So that's driving, right?[00:20:04] Talib Kweli: I feel like we're in almost in a golden age of radio, but as far as, like, with the music business, man, oh, man. Yeah, TikTok is, I just posted something today from, or that Earn Your Leisure poster about Isaac Hayes Jr., for Fanbase, talking about the algorithms and Instagram, and how, when it first started, you could gain 300,000 followers, very quickly, a million followers very quickly, but then once they had video and once they had ads, well, now you could be a network and now, the advertisers are going to come to you instead of coming to Instagram. So now they've made it so, that's why they shadowbanned people and limit content. I have a million people following me. If I post something, maybe 5,000 people will see it or like it, I don't know who, how many people see it.[00:20:44] Talib Kweli: I have to look at the insights, but I'm definitely not reaching everybody who I'm supposed to reach. And they'll be like, oh, well you could, if you pay us, you know what I'm saying? And so it's just interesting to see how with TikTok, which is Chinese-based if I'm not mistaken, I don't think they're doing that. I think they're allowing the content to reach who it's going to reach, or I might be mistaken about that. I don't know. [00:21:05] Dan Runcie: I think that's going to shift with TikTok as well though, because I think we kind of saw the early stage where you could put up a song and, you know, like a Megan Thee Stallion song could blow up or whoever song could blow up.[00:21:16] Dan Runcie: But I think now they got over a billion people using it every day. I think we're going to see or using it every month rather. I think you're going to see the same type of shift happen there, too, eventually. [00:21:27] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, I post on TikTok and no one follows me on TikTok. It's like 4,000 people following me on TikTok. But again, it's the same thing with the Patreon thing. I'm not there, right? I'm not engaging with the people. I'm not clicking on videos, and scrolling through it, and, like, commenting. And I'm not doing anything. I'm just posting things, trying to get some engagement because people are there. I'm putting things up. But that's not really where my fans are looking for me yet at this point.[00:21:54] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. And especially with the demo that you're reaching, and they're not looking at you to go do some TikTok dance or something like that, right? [00:22:01] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I saw The Game doing a TikTok dance. I mean, I hope that that's what he really wanted to do, you know what I'm saying? I hope that he's like, yo, I think that dance is hot, and I'm going to do that dance. Instead of like, damn I got to get on TikTok and do a dance, you know what I'm saying? [00:22:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I do think even that piece of it's going to change too, though, because kind of like we saw on YouTube, right? Like people avoided YouTube for a while because they're, okay, I'm not going to go out here and go dance like Soulja Boy and try to do some viral video, but it eventually matured. And I think we're going to see the same with TikTok where, yeah, you don't have to do some dance that could fit in a vertical video, but you're going to see, you know, folks that you know, are trying to reach your demo, doing whatever the version is that's relatable to them. So it'll take time. In some ways, I feel like it's already happening. Yeah.[00:22:47] Dan Runcie: For you, I do think about even, you know, we're talking about spending time on different platforms. Did you dip into Clubhouse, especially when, you know, the hype on Clubhouse was big or? [00:23:00] Talib Kweli: Oh no. They kicked me off at twitter for, they didn't like the way I was talking on Twitter. If they can't take what I write in text, they damn sure ain't going to be able to take my voice, you know what I'm saying? Clubhouse got popping right when I got kicked off of Twitter, and so I started getting like, you know, you got to invite people, right?[00:23:17] Talib Kweli: So I started getting like, literally I would get 15, 20 invites a day of people like, you got to join. People would take time out of their day to call me, be like, yo, you should be at Clubhouse. It's perfect for you. And because of that, I was like, there's no way I'm ever going on Clubhouse. because nah, like me talking to these things? Nah. That would go left quick. [00:23:41] Dan Runcie: The wild thing is I do think that people can get away with saying wilder shit on audio than they can on written text on Twitter, at least from some of the stuff I've heard. [00:23:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. That's exactly right. That's exactly right, which is why I don't need to be on it. That's exactly right because here's the thing, here's the problem with me, right? I'm a very intersectional person, you know, I'm not out here, slut-shaming. I'm not here calling women bitches and hoes. I'm not out here using the R word or using the F word. I don't do none of that. I'm not a bigot. I don't use bigoted language.[00:24:14] Talib Kweli: But I'm very good with words. And so with the shit that I write in text, and I'm very blunt and direct. And so the shit I write in text, I feel like it triggers a lot of people in terms of, like, because I'm like, Hmm, nah. And I'm just very blunt and direct. If you come at me wrong, I can be insulting without lowering to this vibration of bigotry, right? Or, that's not true. Every man has fucking bigotry issues, but I try my best. I feel like I try more than most of the people I converse with, right? And so, that me, that shit just comes off as snark, bro, and people just be upset, 'cause they feel like you making 'em look stupid and they get very upset and very tight. And that's what it would be for me at Clubhouse. I would say some slick shit and people would get very upset very quick. [00:25:04] Dan Runcie: No, I hear that. I hear you on that. It's been, what, almost two years since you've been off Twitter. [00:25:09] Talib Kweli: Yeah, it's been since 2020. [00:25:11] Dan Runcie: Okay. Do you miss it? [00:25:12] Talib Kweli: No, I don't. It was time. I had been on Twitter for 10 years. I don't miss it at all. I enjoyed my time there though. But, you know, I don't miss it because I honestly, for real, in my heart of hearts, I really, truly, truly, truly do not want to be someplace where I'm not wanted. Like, I stand by that. Like, mm-hmm. Like, if they don't want me there, I don't have no desire to be there.[00:25:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You're not missing much. I'll be honest with you. As someone who spends too much time on that place, you're not missing much. [00:25:42] Talib Kweli: Yeah. What I do realize is that being on Twitter, as much as I was on Twitter and then not on Twitter, is that the things that I was talking to people about on Twitter, and these things, let's not get it twisted, right?[00:25:53] Talib Kweli: These are things that are shifting the culture. And these are things that are shaping the world. The things I was talking about in particular, I wasn't talking about frivolous shit. I wasn't talking about rat beefs or whatever I was talking about, you know, real things. The things I was talking about on Twitter became mainstream news years later, things that I was ringing a bell on, and a lot of us were ringing a bell on and people were just not paying attention.[00:26:14] Talib Kweli: But what I realized was a lot of the things that were elevated in my mind to a level of super I importance that we have to talk about this, people who are not on Twitter, not thinking about none of that shit, not talking about none of it. And so that's why a lot of the stuff that I was going through on Twitter, a lot of stuff that became so ugly and toxic, part of it that I wasn't understanding was when I was like, yo, how is this happening? How's the community letting this happen? Because the community really didn't care, really didn't care. And I'm not saying that to disparage anybody on Twitter. I don't want to seem like now, now, cause I'm not on Twitter, like, haha, oh, y'all whack up being on Twitter. I'm not saying that because Twitter is still a very important tool.[00:26:57] Talib Kweli: That's why all the conversation about Elon Musk and all that stuff is so prevalent and so important. There are people who still use Twitter in amazing ways. Absolutely. But I agree with you. Twitter is a cesspool and it was a cesspool when I was there. It's just a lot clearer not being there and a lot more understanding for why people didn't give a shit about it, you know, now looking at the engagement. I'm glad I was there. I learned a lot. I gained a lot. It was a gift and a curse, but mostly a gift for me. But yeah, it was time for me to go and they decided that before I did, but they were correct. [00:27:31] Dan Runcie: And I think with that, too, it's a bit of that double standard that I think public figures like yourself are kind of put towards, right? People can, you know, reply at you and talk all sorts of shit to you and take what you say out of context. But if you go back at them, then they're going to say, okay, he's putting his fan base back at me. He's doing this. [00:27:47] Talib Kweli: Yeah, that's such an important part of this conversation, right? And I want to be clear here because like I said, I'm an intersectional person. So, you know, I don't want to be the guy that he's here to protect black women. And, well, what about men, you know what I'm saying? Because as a man, I'm a member of a privileged, oppressor group, I'll go as far to say. But there's a phrase, black men are often the white men of the black community, right? Now that phrase is funny, is hyperbolic, right, but it's based in some truth. And I understand why people would say that. When women be like all men are dogs. Yeah. I get it. I don't personally feel like I'm a dog. I've done some dog shit before, but I don't personally look at myself like that. I don't feel offended by that, but just because black men can and often are the white men of the black community, if we're going to be hyperbolic, right? [00:28:37] Talib Kweli: Doesn't mean that we're not still part of a marginalized group of people. It doesn't mean that we're not still under attack. Doesn't mean that we're not still faced with many threats and that we don't still need protection, 'cause we absolutely do. And the conversation in our community has to be about the black community, has to be about women, and children, and men, and gay people, and disabled people, and rich people, and poor people, has to be about all of us.[00:29:07] Talib Kweli: If we're talking about the conversation around systemic oppression. And so the idea that because I've earned an extra layer of privilege, 'cause I'm already born with some privileges. I'm already born in America, born as a man, but because I've mastered my craft, worked hard to master my craft. And it's earned me a degree of fame, and a degree of celebrity, and a degree of money that a lot of people can't earn or not in a position to earn resource and all that, because of that, I'm now supposed to allow people to disrespect, not just me, but my family and particularly the women in my family?[00:29:41] Talib Kweli: And I'm not allowed to be a human being and want to respond and have a response? The things that people say about celebrity is that they're disconnecting, that they don't engage. I don't view myself as celebrity. I view myself as an artist. Well, as an artist, I'm going to talk to the people and for better or for worse, you know? What I realize now is that me talking to the people has put a target on my back because a lot of these people don't even deal with these people. They just block people, look and call 'em trolls.[00:30:10] Talib Kweli: They don't even talk to anybody. And I'm not built that way. And I understand the logic behind it, but I also, there's also a method to my madness as well. And so the idea, I push back hard against the idea that you have a pass to undervalue my humanity or to not treat me like a human being because you haven't earned what I've earned in terms of cultural currency, you know, because you choose to be anonymous, or because you are not famous, or because you are not, I don't know, whatever, like, I can't abide by that. I can't. I find myself inclined to speak out against that idea that we lack humanity, or we are less human, or we deserve to be treated less than because we're famous, or because we have a million followers, or whatever the metric is, I don't know. [00:31:00] Dan Runcie: And I think this point brings the conversation full circle, right? Because so many people, when you and Yasiin decided to release the album on your terms, they're like, oh, well, you're not going to put it on streaming. You're missing out, that you shouldn't be doing this. And y'all are like, This is our music. You can't tell us what to do. Like, this is our craft. And I think it just goes back to the entitlement of people feeling like they have the ability to dictate what you do when you are the one that is in control of what you do. [00:31:31] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, that's, I'm glad you brought that up 'cause for me, those conversations are difficult, right? Because I'm an advocate for artists. I'm a fan. So when we talk about fans, right, we're not talking about, I'm not separate from that group. When you see me post on Instagram videos of me with Bun B, and I'm jumping up and down just like any fan would. I'm not playing it cool, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm a fan as well. And me as a fan, I'm a fan of these artists as human beings. That's why I wrote that article In Defense Of Ms. Hill ' cause it's like, if I'm a fan of her music, then yo sis, take your time. If you don't feel like showing up at the show tonight, Hey, I guess we got to eat that one tonight.[00:32:09] Talib Kweli: But you're still Ms. Hill, you're a human being. You're not some product that rolls out on stage. You press a button, it just goes. If you're having a human issue, you're a human being that's having a human issue. Let us know when you got some new shit and I'll be happy to support. I likely, if you give me an option, I'll overpay for it.[00:32:25] Talib Kweli: How about that? Because I can't quantify what you've given me, and that's honestly how I feel. So it's hard for me to relate to these fans, be like, I want, first of all, that's even the wrong language to be using with me, talking about what you want, you know what I'm saying? If you want the Black Star, I'm going to make the Black Star out.[00:32:41] Talib Kweli: And if you can't, then meet us halfway, bro, and come to where I'm at, because guess what? The first Black Star album, Universal says they own and they don't own it. We've never signed a contract for that album. So they've been profiting off of that. So if you bought that or listen to streaming, you've been paying some rich white company that has nothing to do with Black Star.[00:33:01] Talib Kweli: Every song in that album is available on YouTube. Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you could get all my mixtapes for free. You could get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album, with all this free music you getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this?[00:33:39] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like, you've had so much up to this point. It's not like you haven't had anything, you know, like, if you want to be able to put this one out on your terms, then yeah, here it is. You know, you don't owe anyone anything. [00:33:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I find it hard to relate to the people who don't understand that, which is why, if you notice, when I've been on social media and people ask about it, my response has been, well, this album is not for you.[00:34:00] Talib Kweli: And maybe I should stop doing that because that's such a triggering thing to say to people. And I've been saying it a lot 'cause I mean it. But then it starts these long arguments with me. Fuck you and you're mean to the fans. It's like, nah, my fans are listening to the album. Now whether or not they like it or not, that's subjective. [00:34:18] Talib Kweli: My fans were listening to Midnight Miracle. And if they weren't, if you are a fan, who's watching this podcast right now and you didn't know about Midnight Miracle, go listen to it because you're a fan. You want to hear what we got, you want it. If you are a fan of us, be a fan of us.[00:34:33] Talib Kweli: I don't believe to separate the artists from the music. I don't do that. I feel like that's a cop-out. Let me not say that because, let me just speak for myself. You can't do that with me because I am what my music is. All them lies they be telling about me, it doesn't go with my music. It doesn't go with my actions.[00:34:51] Talib Kweli: It doesn't go with the truth. i I am what I say in these bars. I stand on that. I'm very proud of that. [00:34:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think the other piece of this, too, that I think has now just become the norm in music is that so many artists are predispositioned to be like, okay, lemme just put my music out on streaming.[00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Treat it like it's marketing, get it out there. And then let me make my money when I go on tour. But the way that you all have it set up, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. You can get the money from the art, and you could also get the money, you know, if you and Yasiin choose to do a tour together.[00:35:24] Talib Kweli: I mean, I was touring, I was touring before the pandemic. I was doing 200 shows a year. So that's more than anybody, you know, like I was, that model right there. Think about it. I got 16 albums out, doing 200 shows a year. So that's what, 'you're describing my life. That's exactly what I was doing. And I don't do that anymore, and I don't plan on doing it again.[00:35:43] Talib Kweli: But when I look at pictures or videos for myself from that time, I don't even recognize that person. Like, how was I doing that? That's not sustainable. I was on some super human shit. I don't know what, I don't know how I was doing this. I don't know how I was dropping music and touring at that pace.[00:35:57] Talib Kweli: And still, like, doing activist work, and supporting my family, and just being me, and being on Twitter, you know what I'm saying? Like, all of it, I was doing all of it and I don't know how I was doing all that. [00:36:06] Dan Runcie: How many shows do you think you'll go back to? If 200 was a lot, what do you think is the ideal range?[00:36:13] Talib Kweli: As you're saying, as I'm saying this to you, I'm thinking about it. I'm like, damn. I got a lot of shows coming up, but I can't let it get back to 200 a year. [00:36:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I mean, 'cause at that rate, yeah, I mean, you're talking, I mean, like more than half of the days of the year you are out there putting it all out there. I mean, yeah.[00:36:29] Talib Kweli: 20 years straight, I did that for 20 years.[00:36:31] Dan Runcie: And it's wild. It's wild. I mean, I think at least the position that you're potentially in now, you can earn more money from the actual music you're putting out. You clearly have, you know, a bit buy-in with a platform that has other people that are invested in it as well.[00:36:45] Dan Runcie: And then with any other business interest that you may have, like, this is something to build up on, right? It's clearly, like, recurring revenue that you have and if you and Luminary continue to grow, then you can also tour and do any of that other stuff on your own terms. [00:36:59] Talib Kweli: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:37:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel that's the way to go with it. Well, Talib, this has been a great conversation. I feel like we covered a bunch just in terms of the importance of autonomy, importance of independence, and where you see things going. But for the people that are listening and they do want to follow, I'm sure they already know if they're listening, but where should they go to check for the latest of what you got going on?[00:37:18] Talib Kweli: Man, just follow me on Instagram. If they don't kick me off Instagram, 'cause they be threatening to kick me off Instagram too. They don't like when I talk about racism on Instagram. So for as long as I'll be on Instagram, follow me there. I just joined Fanbase today. So I'm looking forward to exploring Fanbase.[00:37:32] Talib Kweli: But I mean, you got to come see me in the flesh or don't actually, you know, like just, I don't know. Like, I've been out in the flesh a a lot, man. I don't know. I don't know. Just holler at me when you see me, and I'll try to make my presence known. For the near foreseeable future, I'm definitely going to be at Luminary. So I definitely encourage people to subscribe to Luminary. [00:37:52] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. And I appreciate the Fanbase shout out too. Shout out to Isaac Hayes III. I had him on the podcast couple of months ago. Love what he's building. [00:37:59] Talib Kweli: Yeah, me too. I've been knowing about it for a minute, but now as I'm starting to, like, really assess what's valuable to me, I'm, like, starting to look at things a little different, and I'm like, yeah, Fanbase. We can't keep talking about it, right? At some point we got support. [00:38:14] Dan Runcie: Right. Exactly. We know that this is the culture that pushes it forward. It's our culture. I mean, have the people that are about it to be the ones that actually own it in, we can see what happens.[00:38:22] Talib Kweli: Yeah. Word up. [00:38:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right, man. Appreciate you. [00:38:26] Talib Kweli: All right. Peace. [00:38:27] Dan Runcie: All right, man. Thanks. [00:38:29] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

This week’s special guest on Trapital is entertainment lawyer Karl Fowlkes. As part of his own The Fowlkes Firm, Karl represents entertainers across many domains — from music to sports to media, including hip-hop’s rising star, Blxst. He pulled double duty, not only appearing on the podcast, but guest-writing for the newsletter about the need for the artist contract to evolve.In particular, Karl predicts shared equity between not only artists and record labels, but also with other parties like distributors or fintech companies. The days of record labels having 100-percent ownership of an artists’ masters could slowly be phased out over the next decade in favor of a split much more friendly toward the artist.Karl also has advice for an artist, or any content creator for that matter, signing a new contract — LOMO. The acronym stands for length, obligation, money, and ownership. These are the top-line items creators should prioritize when inking deals, according to Karl. Karl has a ton more insights into how artists and creators can maximize their long term value, plus how deals will change in the near and distant future. Here’s everything we covered during our interview:[4:13] The Future Of The Artist Deal[5:50] Changes With Major Record Labels[7:36] Will Record Labels Exist In 10-20 Years?[11:20] Artists Wanting A Partnership, Not Signing [15:50] Karl’s Advice To All Content Creators Signing Contracts[19:18] The Issue With Music Royalties[22:42] The Hip-Hop “Middle Class”[24:47] Building EVGLE Brand Alongside Blxst[25:08] Blxst Partnership Status With “Major” LabelsListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, Fowlkes FirmEnjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Karl Fowlkes If you're making $20,000 to $30,000 a month off music. I mean, damn, that’s pretty, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth, get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success. [00:00:38]  Dan Runcie Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:58] Dan Runcie Today's episode is all about the deals that artists sign. There are so many more options and ways that artists can level up and types of companies that they can partner with. It's no longer just the record labels. There's alternative finance options, their distribution platforms, and more. And I broke this down today with my friend and well-respected entertainment attorney, Karl Fowlkes. And he runs an entertainment practice called The Fowlkes Firm where he represents artists like Blxst, producers, entertainers, athletes, and more. [00:01:30]  Dan Runcie So I talked to Karl about his experience with this and what he sees as the future landscape. And Karl has this phrase that I think he needs to trademark, he has this phrase called LOMO, which is focused on the four key elements that artists should be focusing on when they're signing deals. The important thing about LOMO. And more broadly, this conversation is that this doesn't just apply to artists, look at all the different types of creators right now. There's so many deals that they're doing, there's so many opportunities from different companies that want to partner with them. And whenever those things happen, there are more and more contracts that aren't always set up in the easiest way for you to be able to understand and break this down. So we talked about that and where things are heading and how it really is shifting to a place where artists aren't just giving the keys to a big corporation to handle everything. Let's have them, build the businesses around themselves, partner with the different companies to fill in the different roles you need, and build up from there. This was a great conversation. I think it's really insightful for all the creators out there. So I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Karl Fowlkes. All right, today, we got Karl Fowlkes with us who's back on the podcast from The Fowlkes Firm, you represent Blxst and a bunch of other artists. But we're here to talk about this guest piece that you wrote for Trapital, a really great piece about the future of the artists deal. So let's start at the top. Why did you want to write this piece?[00:02:56] Karl Fowlkes  I think right now, you know, historically, there's, there's been a few players. And those few players are really just record labels. So it kind of pigeonholes what the what the deal is going to look like, you know, now, there's so many different players out there. Technologies is infused all through the music industry. So there's, you know, there's distributors, there's advanced companies, right, they're just trying to like, you know, model what they can give you based on streaming algorithms, you know, companies like beatBread, for example. And then you still got those major labels, they're sort of offering a lot of those services. So the landscape is so different, I think, because there's so many different parties and so many different solutions. I think the deal has to change with the times that we're in. And oftentimes, you know, what I'm seeing, you know, I'm not seeing, you know, those changed deal terms. And, you know, I just think it's something that we need to get ahead of.[00:03:48] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And I feel like now you're hearing more than ever, people talk about ownership artists, whether or not they may have enough behind it, want to make sure that they're owning everything when they're coming to try to negotiate contracts. Do you feel like that's shifted the landscape? I mean, I feel like it's definitely improved the conversation around it, but do you feel like that's actually having an impact on the deals that are being made?[00:04:13] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, and it's been quite effective. You know, I think most people who are in my position, you know, doing deals on the attorney side are seeing contracts that, especially if there's any built-up leverage that almost exclusively, you know, have a license period, right? So instead of the full transfer of ownership or work-for-hire language I've seen in the past, I'm seeing a lot more 20-year licenses, 25-year licenses, 15-year licenses. So the artist is you know, almost exclusively, you want to get the masters back. Now some of the other top line terms might not be that different in terms of the royalty rate, or some, you know, the ancillary income. But you know, the ownership paradigm is definitely, definitely changing. And I think that's the unique thing about it today.[00:04:59] Dan Runcie  Yeah, because I feel like, especially with the major record labels is kind of two things happening, right? On one hand, you're streaming revenues are continuing to grow. And you have all these other revenue sources from outside of the digital streaming providers, whether that's with Peloton or Roblox and all these other partners that want a license deal. So while that's increasing, but on the other hand, more and more artists are not going to want to  just give up their masters in perpetuity. So the labels are also counteracting that piece of it. So I see them in a lot of ways, they're hoping that the revenue from all of these areas can offset the loss that's eventually going to come from the masters, because eventually you can earn money from the back catalog forever if the current artists are going to keep that back catalog, and the labels aren't going to be able to have it.[00:05:50] Karl Fowlkes  3,000%. So I think, I almost wonder why some of the record labels out there don't sort of take from their publishing counterparts, right? Because the co-pub deal is sort of set up as a joint ownership structure, 50-50, right? So the songwriter usually owns half the composition, and the publisher owns the other half of the composition. And, you know, when the term is up, the kind of, the songwriter can go do what they want with their 50%. And they can have, you know, whoever collects on it, and then you know, the record label can, sorry, the publisher can take their 50% and go collect on it as well. So it's a shared equity model. It's something that I think tends to work for better parties. I know, there's some mechanisms that are a little bit different, you know, as it relates to distribution of music versus collection of music. But I think that's sort of a precursor to, you know, maybe something we'll see, you know, happen over the next 10 to 20 years.[00:06:46] Dan Runcie  What do you think the next 10 to 20 years will look like? Because I often have this conversation with a lot of people, some people go to the extreme of being like, no record labels will be extinct by then. And I've never quite gotten to that perspective, just because the people still ignore the desire that people have to be the biggest star in the world and where they feel like they need to go in order to do that. But I do think that we'll likely see more of these shared equity or more of these flexible options because I feel like one of the things you highlight in the piece is that it's great that there's so many distributors and places that you can release your music, but it's still a pretty big difference where it's like, okay, you either got to give up everything, and we'll make you a superstar, or you try to do it your own. But it's still hard to get to that level without some additional support.[00:07:36] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I think the next 10 to 20 years are going to be a very interesting time. And I don't think anything's going to be figured out in the next 10 to 20 years, just because I think there are so many different emerging business models, right? Like, I keep talking about these music tech companies, kind of coming in and offering using algorithms and, you know, formulas to sort of create an estimate on, you know, what your royalties could be, will make in the next three to four years. They'll give you a big advance, right, and now to reference beatBread, because, you know, I just saw they did that for a massive artist recently. And they're, they're not really they're not offering service or anything, we're just going to give you that funding element. And I think historically, if you look at startups, and you know, there's always been a lot of artists, our founders’ conversation in the past five years, but when you look at a lot of startups, it's really hard to scale a business without capital. So capital is always going to be sort of the driving force on any decision I think you have to make in your business journey at a certain point. So I think what will happen is labels will realize I think the all-or-nothing approach of sort of either doing a license deal or completely owning the masters isn't really probably in anyone's best interest, including theirs. And I think we'll see more shared equity, right, and more investing in artists, you know, being in business with an artist forever, like in a tasteful way, right? Like, owning 20% of somebody's master for perpetuity seems a lot better than owning 100% of someone's, you know, master in perpetuity, right. There's, there's like a natural, if you’re an artist, you might be able to live with that, hey, this person gave me a million dollars. They have different access, resources, and funding opportunities throughout and they have a history of helping artists, you know, why don't I, we can we could share this thing forever, but you know, I'll be in control. I think that makes a lot more sense.[00:09:32] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And what I think it does is it itemizes how to look at the value add that you're either getting from a record label or from another type of partner, right? Because at its core, a record label deal is very similar to a private equity model. I know a lot of people make the venture capital comparison. But I think it's a bit more like private equity or even more so an M&A deal where you are essentially selling yourself as the business, at least to the recorded music business of what you're doing, to this company. And then in return, they are paying you for the services, and they're obviously going to try to maximize it as much as they can with everything they offer, from marketing to promotion to all the other services that you can essentially get counsel advice, so on. But I think the shift and what we're seeing a lot more artists do, more so I'd say on the independent side, I think we'll see some of the bigger artists do it, too, they want to create the business, they want to be the one that is doing the actual tasks, and how can they have, you know, things set up around them in order to do that. And it's something we see with all creatives to some extent, right? I feel like some people are always going to, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the business side of things, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the art that they actually do need to make. But still, if you're going to take the business side of it, then yeah, there is likely going to be a company you go to for marketing support, there's going to be a company you go to for PR or for distribution or for those things. And if you do it that way, then you're likely going to have a better approach about how you're making deals. And I feel like this is one of the key things that, like, you and I've been talking about for years now, just in terms of like how these things get set up, and how these things should be set up, especially for the artists that are willing to put in the work.[00:11:20] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I think what artists and their teams, too, are realizing are, you know, they're still doing a ton of work, even after they signed to the record label, right. And I think some of those things, historically, that we may be thought or attributed to regularly, but whether it's right or wrong, are things that in this generation, you know, teams, managers, other team members on that direct artists’ team are being tasked with, and, and they're executing, you know, to some extent, right? We're seeing TikTok campaigns being launched. And then that being the driving force of, of an artist being signed to a multimillion-dollar license deal, right, because that artists and their team leverage, you know, that music technology to create some moment, momentum and drive the price of that deal up. We're seeing a lot of that. So I think all that's making artists and their teams do is say, hey, if we're going to do a lot of the strategy and, and work to get signed, maybe signing doesn't necessarily make sense, maybe we're looking for, for something else, maybe it's not traditional, we signed to you model. It's like, let's partner, I need you for a few things. The rest we can take care of, we need some funding, and you know, we need some support on you know, a radio, we need some money, some of your tools that you might have and your staffing, but you know, eventually, we think we'll be able to do that stuff down the line. I think that's kind of the fut ure more and more sort of artists’ companies. And you see some of these catalogs, you're like, yeah, that's like, that's, you know, that's a mini-company. You know, I know, we talked, we saw Justin Timberlake’s catalog sold for, I believe, roughly $100 million. But you think about companies that could sell for $100 million, like, they have more than, like, two employees, where it's actually a company. Like, there's people driving marketing campaigns, there's the Human Resources Department, there's, you know, so I always think it's funny, because when you actually look at the valuation of the IP, and what something is actually making year over year, and, you know, that's like, that's a pretty sizable company, that that's probably not staffed correctly. I think that's probably what we'll see in the future is, hopefully, these companies and they can get staffed correctly.[00:13:35] Dan Runcie  And it makes you also think about, okay, let's take the Justin Timberlake example, obviously, someone that had a very successful and still has had a very successful solo career. But how much more value could there have been if he had created things in the way that, you know, we're talking about here? Obviously, there's a trade-off there, because I do think he's clearly someone that benefited more than the average person for a number of reasons from the major record label system and the broader media system that we're in. But yeah, $100 million, like, you think about a startup that is reaching $100 billion, you already have the idea of how big that startup is, what’s that startup’s trajectory looks like. And obviously, this is a little bit different because it's based on that recurring revenue stream. But still, I mean, it's huge,[00:14:22] Karl Fowlkes  Right? And I think like it's when we talk about sales and you know, when a company has to do get due diligence done on them, right so you look under the hood and you know, you're trying to see what that company actually owns. Do they even own the rights? Do they own the pub rights? Do they own the likeness? Do they own the trademarks, right? But if a company, for an artist, you know, driven company It doesn't have to be one artist. I think, you know, obviously, there's going to be a lot more collective and smarter labels, I think, in the future that are successful and, you know, running this model. But, you know, if you do due diligence on a company, and they do own all the IP, they do own all the trademarks, they do own the pub, and they do own the record, and there's employees in place, and there's procedures in place, and there's a history and books to sort of show what's happening over the past 5 to 10 years, you know, you're right, like, you know, these, these evaluations are probably being done on just raw numbers. But if you were to factor in some of this other stuff, it's like, man, this is like a, this is a well-oiled machine, this might be worth a little bit more.[00:15:22] Dan Runcie  Yeah, for sure. And I feel like once we were able to get there, a lot of it is focused on the type of deals, people can make and how specific they're getting about these. And you have been pushing and promoting this acronym about how artists, and I think this even extends beyond artists, how anyone that is creating content or making any type of deal should be looking at things. So what's the advice there that you give for that? And what are the elements to look out for?[00:15:50]  Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, yeah, you know, a strategy I've sort of been using and I created, I believe it was about a year and a half ago in talking to a few clients was, you know, length, obligation, money, and ownership. And those four key things are sort of the top line things you need to worry about when you're forming a contract. And also, I like to think about, you know, clients and people I'm talking to, when I'm discussing LOMO, just prioritizing those things, right? Because you're not going to have, you're not going to have the perfect deal where you have a short term, you get, you get a lot of money, your obligations low, and you get to own everything. That's just not, that's just not realistic. But what I do think is realistic is, you know, putting together a strategy that you can sort of, you know, put those things in order and you know, 5, 6, 7 years down the line, be happy with whatever sort of business you set up for yourself because you knew what you were getting into. You knew what your priorities were and you knew what you were signing. So I think those four top line terms: length, obligation, money, and ownership are the driving force of, they’re for sure the backbone of every contract, and for better or worse, I think those terms have decided whether an artist is going to be on Twitter in five years, talking about how they hate their contract, or they're going to be, you know, being able to sell their catalog for $50 to $100 million in 10 years, right? So I think LOMO is really important, and they'll help you sort of prioritize your needs if you are an artist. And again, that's not just for the artists, that's for the artists’ team. That's where these collectives that are coming up, I think those are probably will be the ones enforcing that strategy. But you know, LOMO is very, it's very useful, I think.[00:17:35] Dan Runcie You got LOMO trademarked?[00:17:37] Karl Fowlkes I haven't gotten LOMO trademark, man, that's crazy. Maybe after this episode.[00:17:42] Dan Runcie  I mean, I feel like you got it, I mean, because that's so many of these things, right? How do you, like, simplify things to just make it clear and take away so much of the legalese that I think is in there, and many times as a tactic itself to confuse artists?[00:18:00] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, and again, like some of the legal, you hire an attorney to do the hard legal work, right? That's like the job of, you know, when people are generally saying artists, you need to understand your deals, we're not saying you need to become an attorney overnight because you still need an attorney, you need someone who's, that's someone else's job. Your job is to sort of run your company, you know, have a little bit of insight on some of these objectives and stuff that you're building. But you should really have a key indicator of those top line terms, that's what you really need to know. You're not going to know what the indemnification clause is, or you're not going to get into the warranties and representation. That's not the best use of your time. But you should know how long the contract is. You should know how much money, how much royalty you're going to get, or how the royalties are even paid out. You should know what you're required to do. You know, all those good things are the core of a contract. And I think that artists need to focus less on some of the nitty-gritty of the contract. You're not going to read too much legalese in a contract. But you know, those four things will help you sort of, you know, understand what you're signing.[00:19:03] Dan Runcie  Yeah, I agree. And you mentioned earlier about the artists that are going to be on Twitter complaining about their deal. Is there an area of LOMO that you think they're most likely to complain about or have an issue about?[00:19:18] Karl Fowlkes  Oh, yeah, that's a really good question. I think oftentimes, it's a combination of usually two things, but I think it's the maybe the way royalties are paid out. I think once you really understand recoupment, you know, it's not like a net profit. It's not like an off top thing, and what I mean by that is, if you're recouping at the royalty rate, I mean, If you have a 20% royalty rate, you got to make five times, you know, to recoup, right, to get even, right? because, you know, you're, if a dollar of money is generated, only 20 cents of that dollar is counting toward, you know, paying back the label, right? So you got to make five, you got to make 25 times over. I think that's the part that really rubs people the wrong way, right? Just because if it was a net profit situation, or an off top, right, you know, all costs go toward recoupment,, and then you get 80. And I get 20. and still be bad, but it'd be a little better, it'd be, it'd be a little less bad. So I think it's that part of the money that really, really gets people upset, because I'm not even sure that, you know, these companies really don't have to do that. Like, that is just, and I'm not, I'm not in the business of, I don't care. Like, that's just stupid. That's a bad business model. I think that's the reason why a lot of disruptions happen, because that just so that's so one-sided.[00:20:36] Dan Runcie  Yeah, it makes me think of Meek Mill, when he had posted, at some point earlier this year, I don't know when I'm going to get paid, or I haven't gotten paid for this. And this is someone that, you know, could sell hundreds of thousands in his first week with, at least to do with Championships, or whatever the album was when he, llike, first came out of prison, but he still doesn't know, and he's also someone that runs a record label himself, or he has the joint venture with Roc Nation for his Dream Chasers. So it's like, even at that level, artists still don't know.[00:21:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I mean, Benny The Butcher, definitely a favorite rapper of mine. But you know, I was listening to a Freestyle yesterday, he did, I think, with Charlie Sloth on London. And he said, these rappers, you know, they're doing 100k first week, but you know, he's still not recouped. And I always, that is interesting, right? Because, you know, we all care about these sorts of, these first week numbers, but, you know, how much money is it taking to get to those first week numbers? And, you know, still, you're still probably in a hole, depending on the advances you've got. Advances are good, but it's also a way for you to continue to be locked in that contract, right? Would you rather. have some people want that $5 million check. But you know, you lose leverage me the more money you take. That's just the reality of it.[00:21:56] Dan Runcie  Right. Yeah. I, I think that Benny, of course. And I think Griselda overall, they figured it out in a model that actually works for them. And I think Russ probably falls in this category as well, where it's like, okay, you know, we don't care about the first week numbers. We actually want to have a business that runs, right? So Griselda could sell $75 or $100 vinyls or, you know, butcher cleaves, or whatever it is, in order to, you know, have, like, high-end merch that people are going to want to buy. And I think for a lot of artists, yeah, there is at least a bit of a trade-off to some extent, like, do you care more about the revenue? Or do you care more about the fame and the accolades and the media and stuff? And I don't think that's as black and white for most artists as they think it is.[00:22:42] Karl Fowlkes   Yeah, because like, the real metrics that people should care about, you know, we're not in this all for money, but I think money and ownership, if you have those things, and you're building a model that sort of is conducive, and not just because you're doing shows all the time, like, you know, I'm not sure Russ passed pop out ar nightclubs, you know, just to pay his bills, I know for a fact he doesn't have to do that, right. And that sort of the flexibility and freedom that I think guys really want when they hop into the rap game. They want to be able to, you know, sit down sit by the Dame Dash Calls it that “by the pool money,” right? You know, I want to be able to put my feet up by the pool, have their residual income coming in, and you know, and really be a boss really be a CEO not have to perform in Shreveport, Louisiana, you know, at a nightclub to pay my bills because I'm not getting any money from my music. Streaming is not the best model yet, from a payout standpoint, but because of how often and consistently people are streaming music, it's still an effective way for you to get money, right? So I think, when Russ posts TuneCore statements, you know, that is, obviously not everyone's going to have that sort of consistency and hard work. But you know, a lot of that's real, I mean, if you have five, I always talk about that, that hip-hop, middle class that needs to emerge, and you need to be happy and we need to celebrate those people. And because if you're making $20,000 or $30,000 a month of music, damn, I mean you could talk, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth and get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success. So I think that I think that's really important, too. I mean, that's, that's kind of where I am. And that's not the sort of education that I'm putting out.[00:24:47] Dan Runcie And I feel like that's also how you're building the businesses that you have and what you're associated with, right? I look at what you and Vic and the team are building, with Blxst as well, and what you're building with Evgle, and I feel like this is exactly that. Like, you're building the company that structured around this. Can you talk a bit about how you all have things set up?[00:25:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, so Evgle is a company that I am an equity partner in. It's me, Victor Burnett, who was the president and is also Blxst’s manager. And then you obviously have Blxst, who is the key cog, the creative genius, and really someone who's sort of, you know, been patient, and made this all possible. But, you know, the way we're set up is, you know, we were, we're a company, privately-owned, and we've been able to partner with entities in, you know, retain 100% ownership of IP, make sure we're getting, you know, some of that mail, that by the pool money at all times, and in putting ourselves in a position for us to, you know, not just build vertically, but horizontally. We're building out, you know, we have a full staff, you know, we have health care for everybody. We have office space, all those, all that fun stuff, that I think that, you know, isn't probably celebrated enough in building a company and particularly in hip-hop. So that's kind of how we're building. And I think long term,  we're empowering our artists and the people that come next, to do the same thing. It's not going to be, hey, you signed with Evgle, or we're taking your masters, and you're taking ownership and control of everything. That's, that's just not what we're doing. And, you know, I think Vic and Blxst in particular, are very, very cognizant of that. And so I think, I think we're trying to lead the way in that regard.[00:26:34] Dan Runcie  So is the plan to continue to build the company solely around the brand of Blxst himself as the creative or do you also want to bring on other artists, too?[00:26:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, so we already signed another I’ll call a multi-hyphenate, you know talent as well. He's an artist and producer. So we'll be rolling him out sometime later this summer, maybe early fall, then we have another producer signed on or partnered on, sometimes I use old terms, but partnered on the publishing side. So there are two other creatives already, you know, in-house, and I think the goal will be to get bigger, you know, as time goes by[00:27:14] Dan Runcie  And then in terms of Blxst specifically, what does his relationships look like with the major record label system and being able to amplify the work that he does?[00:27:25] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. You know, we obviously have a public relationship with Red Bull Records, who's our partner on the record side, and it's been a super fruitful partnership. You know, Blxst has, you know, elevated his career. They've been really helpful in allowing Evgle to stay, you know, 100% independent, and building what we built. So, kudos to Red Bull. And those guys over there, in Red Bull’s distributor, is The Orchard. So we do have a, I guess, major label tie, righ?. So you know, but that's really kind of, you know, I think all three of us, you know, Blxst is a multi-hyphenate to the truest extent ever, you know, he's, he can edit his own videos, he does his design work, he can produce his songs, he engineers it. You know, Vic, similar type of talent, you know,  he's, you know, he's, he's a merch guru, you know, great leader, great manager. And same with myself, obviously, I'm a lawyer, but, you know, as an operator, and someone who builds businesses on the sort of technical and admin side, you know, I love that part. So we're talking about three people who are multi-hyphenates. I think when you have people like that, you don't have to outsource as much throughout the different phases of growth. And we've been able to resist some of the pitfalls that other companies have had to go through because we've been able to scale to  2x to 5x by doing a lot of stuff in-house and I think I don't think that's going to change. And you know, our growth has been incremental and positive, you know, year after year and I think that's because we're taking the steps and we're not trying to build something really quickly.[00:29:11] Dan Runcie  Yeah, you're trying to build for the long haul, right? And if Blxst’s someday going to have his triple-figure catalog sale, if he want ever wants that, that's going to be done by, you know, building step by step. You're building for the long term, even though I'm sure, right now, especially after the Kendrick feature, and he's just been blowing up especially I feel like for the past two years now, but I feel like especially the past, like, 12, 18 months, you've been seeing more and more, at least publicly, I feel like, it may seem like it, you know, things are going fast, but I feel like, you know, talking to you all, yeah, you know, this is a long game.[00:29:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, it's a long game. And you also know, like, you know, behind the scenes, we've been aggressive, in know, diversifying our company profile and our portfolio and what we're trying to build, you know, outside of music. You know, I think all of us also realize the entertainment industry is also just a vehicle, to impact the world. So, you know, at some point, your vehicles change. And I think we're also we also realize that, you know, everything that we're building today, you know, has to be bigger than, bigger than just the industry that we that we exist in. That's just not, it wouldn't be fulfilling for for any of us. So, I think that's it, we're very cognizant of that.[00:30:23] Dan Runcie  That makes sense. That makes sense. Good stuff, man. I am excited to see not just more change in the industry, but obviously, I think you wrote this piece for a really timely reason. And we're gonna continue to see the impact of that. So yeah, if you're listening, definitely go check out The Future of the Artist Deal. It's up now on the Trapital website. And Karl, before we let you go, anything else that you want to plug? Or let the listeners know about now?  [00:30:50] Karl Fowlkes No, man. I mean, honestly, just keep your eyes out for everything we're doing at Evgle, I think there's going to be a lot of fun, disruptive stuff that we announced, and we do over the next couple of months to a year. And, you know, personally, you know, The Fowlkes Firm is growing as a disruptor in the law firm space. So, you know, look out for those two things. And, you know, I just challenge everyone to challenge the status quo. You know, that's, that's what we're all here for.[00:31:17] Dan Runcie That's the only way the industry grows, right? [00:31:19] Karl Fowlkes Yeah.[00:31:19] Dan Runcie  Exactly. I appreciate you, man. Thank you.[00:31:22] Karl Fowlkes All right.[00:31:24] Dan Runcie  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. 

There’s never been more ways for artists to tap directly into their fan bases than present day. However, actually understanding those same audiences hasn’t scaled at the same rate with the times. My guest on Trapital this week, Denisha Kuhlor, is out to solve that pain point with her new music tech startup, Stan.Denisha’s company wants to take a more scientific approach to understanding and growing an artist's fanbase — from the casuals to the “stans.” Strengthening the artist-fan relationship will create better fan experiences, or as Denisha calls them, “moments of magic.” One way to create that magic is through live performance, but not necessarily at music festivals, argues Denisha. She thinks artists are mistakenly prioritizing quantitative metrics (attendance and performance-fee sizes) rather than the qualitative. While this might provide a short-term boost, it hurts in the long term since artists aren’t connecting with the “stans” that are paying to see them and them only.   Denisha has observed this effect among Africa-based artists. The continent has produced a number of new stars, who generally “cut their teeth” performing at smaller, but more intimate venues like a club or even a wedding. Denisha has more insights into the rise of Africa’s music scene, the state of touring, and more. Here’s all our talking points in this episode:[2:44] The Downside Of Performing At Music Festivals[8:52] Followers Aren’t Your Fans[12:51] African Artists Model The Way For Growing A Fanbase[14:11] Benefits Of Instant Feedback Loops When Performing[16:47] Cardi B’s Unique Approach To Touring[21:28] Deeper Message In Kendrick Lamar’s Partnership With Cash App [26:52] What’s The Future Of African Music?[28:07] TikTok’s Influence In Africa’s Music Scene[31:42] Differences Between Performing In US Vs. Africa [33:55] 'Elasticity” Of An Artist Like Future[38:41] Denisha’s Start-Up Stan Is Reimagining Fan-Artist Relationship[40:19] How An Artist Can Leverage StanListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Transcription[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways, it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like, I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. [00:00:31] Dan Runcie:  Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about fans, specifically as it relates to music festivals because the people that see you perform at music festivals are not necessarily the same people that see you perform when you're on a tour. And on this episode, I was joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan, a company that focuses specifically on helping artists make better decisions based on their fan engagement.[00:01:24] Dan Runcie: And we talked all about what it's like for artists that focus on music festivals and while music festivals can be a great way to reach new people and a great way to get a good check, especially if you're a headliner performing at one of the big ones, it doesn't replace the things that don't scale and doing the hard work of building a fan base, and going out there, and meeting the people that actually want to see your music and see you in person.[00:01:50] Dan Runcie: So we talk about that. We talk about some of the current trends in the trade-offs and what Denisha is currently seeing, specifically in Africa with artists like Burna Boy, and Wizkid, and Davido and others that have really made the most of the constraints that they've had, but how it actually helped improve their careers as well.[00:02:08] Dan Runcie: We also talked about the music investment landscape, specifically in Africa, some of the opportunities there, some of the differences as it relates to music streaming. And then we chat a little bit more about Stan and what Denisha is building towards. This is a really fun combo. I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Denisha.[00:02:26] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And Denisha, you recently wrote an awesome guest piece in Trapital about the downside of music festivals. So why did you write this piece? Let's talk about it. [00:02:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So it's been something that's been in my mind for a long time. I think even on the consumer side, I've changed, I guess, how I patronize music and seeing artists and really just wanted to talk about like, how that impacts my relationship with the artists. I think we've been really conditioned and excited as consumers to attend festivals that optimize for seeing as many artists as possible.[00:03:09] Denisha Kuhlor: But what I think about some of my favorite music moments, frankly, they weren't at a festival, always a show that the artists headlined themselves. And so when I think about the impact and the touring coming, kind of coming back, you know, since restrictions, because of COVID, I think it was really important to explore from both an artist and somewhat a fan perspective.[00:03:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things, I think, you highlight as well, especially on the artist's perspective too, we could easily get caught up in the allure of festivals. People always want to see who's headlining Coachella and what does it mean. And there's not going to be as much of a headlining or newsworthy thing if you're doing your own festival, but in a lot of ways, that's where you really meet your fans everywhere. And in a lot of ways, that makes much more of a difference in the long term even if the initial check size isn't as big, which you called out. [00:04:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And in a weird way, festivals have almost become like very industry, I guess, and everything leading up to the festival, right? The politics behind being picked, where your name is on the flyer and, and what that represents. And while they're all great, I guess, points that can help an artist in the right direction, I think there's other ways to do it that maybe don't initially come with some of that fanfare. I totally agree. [00:04:25] Dan Runcie: So what are some of those ways? [00:04:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So I really, to, I guess, put a tech or venture lens on it, but the great essay of like, doing things that don't scale, right? Like, I think so often as an artist or as an aspiring artist, it's really easy to look up to the really big things. Like you said, those are the things that are newsworthy, those are the things that are covered, and that people like see as amazing. But I, I think that artists right now have like a really unique ability to just play around, right, and play around with what that means. So I think a lot about Burna Boy's interview in Billboard recently. And even though he just like headline MSG, is the first Nigerian act to do that, and has been breaking a ton of records. Like, he just kind of was like, the next big thing for me is touring in like, avant-garde venues or venues that you typically wouldn't.[00:05:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And while he's a big star, that's something that's really feasible for small artists as well, right? You know, venues, venues and tradition. And that's why I love what, like Sofar Sounds are, is doing or other platforms. But I think so often it's easy to have like a uniform idea of what a tour looks like, or even what connecting with your fans looks like.[00:05:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think sometimes just bringing together, like, even 20 or 25 people that want to see you, that are willing to take their time. And like this world of an attention deficit, like someone giving an hour or two hours of your time just to appreciate your art is really amazing. And I think that artists are so used, like, just sold out a thousand, a thousand seats or 2000 or 3000. The quantitative numbers kind of don't allow them to connect on a qualitative level. [00:05:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And everyone has to start somewhere. But I feel like in this era where there's so much instant gratification, people don't always want to go through the steps of shooting in the gym or any of that to get to that point.[00:06:09] Dan Runcie: And I think part of what makes it tough, even if they're willing to do it, sometimes the optics can be a bit scary just because of how things are set up. I think one of the things that you mentioned in the piece and we were talking about afterward is just how, if an artist gets booked on a festival, everyone may not necessarily be there to see them, even the people that are standing there, but there's this optic of look at me, performing in front of these 8,000 people that are immediately in front of me, right? But if they go and do their own show and they can't sell a thousand tickets, or if they have one of those things where they're performing and you could see so much space in between the people that are standing in the audience, then there's a bit of a vanity piece where it's like, are you comfortable with that even though, you know, that that's how you build a fan base. [00:06:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So true. You know, as we were talking about that point, I thought a lot deeper about it, and a dynamic, I think, that's also really important is almost like how social media accessibility also plays from a peer perspective.[00:07:12] Denisha Kuhlor: And so these artists, while you can be a smaller, newer, upcoming artist, you can, I guess, be or feel like your peers with artists that are way larger than you just for proximity to that artist. And as a result, you almost kind of feel, like, embarrassed, if you will. It's like a freshman hanging out with a senior, right?[00:07:31] Denisha Kuhlor: They're going to do senior things, whether it's going to prom or what, like whatever, but there's, like, really levels and social media. And I guess just other mediums have kind of taken away some of those levels. And as a result, like Issa Rae's quote, people are so busy, like, networking that they're not networking across. And as a result who or what they compare themselves to creates a false sense of reality when it comes time for their own careers. [00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that if you're on that stage, you think, okay. Yeah, I'm here, but you're really not. There's a huge difference. And as we both know, festivals get sold by the headliners, and yeah, the further, the smaller your font size is, for better or worse, the more interchangeable you actually are. And I think an instance of this, I know I've written about this recently, was looking at Coi Leray. And a lot of people had made a bit of noise about where things looked like from her perspective and her numbers because she had so many things that were coincides in her favor, in terms of being signed a Republic, she had songs with Nicki and Lil Durk. She performed on Fallon, BET awards. Benzino's daughter, over 6 million Instagram followers, but when it came time to sell her album, we're talking 11,500 units, which is around, I mean, less than 20 million streams in a week, which isn't that much.[00:08:52] Dan Runcie: There's plenty of other legacy albums that get more than that. And then they recently announced her tour and she's doing a mix of festivals and tour stops, but her tour stops, they're cities with less than 500 capacity venues. And I don't think it's just her necessarily. I think this applies to a lot of people, but it's just such a big difference where, okay, your followers are not necessarily your fans. And I think the distinction between touring and doing, you know, festivals highlights that more than anything. [00:09:24] Denisha Kuhlor: I think she's been a really interesting one to watch if only for all the things you mentioned. She's a great example of kind of a new artist these days and it begs the question, like, if attention at all, even really equals any type of conversion to, like, true patronage. And something I find is that like in a digitally native generation, they don't view attention, or maybe even we, like, we don't necessarily view attention in a positive or negative sentiment. Just because in a way you're willing to give your attention to something doesn't mean in any way it's potentially in your favor when the time comes that that attention will convert to something really tangible.[00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: But I also in, you know, in her case being signed, you know, being signed to Republic, I think it continues to, like, push that conversation of what A&R should look like now. You know, reading a lot about how A&R has evolved and having conversations with people in the industry. I think before or, or now it's evolved, right, to, like, leveraging data, right? And so many people talk about data. You can, of course, leverage data to find these up-and-coming artists, but then once you do or decide that you want to invest in this artist and work with this artist, what do those conversations kind of look like early to promote that strategy and kind of sometimes force the artists to, to go slow before they can go fast.[00:10:41] Denisha Kuhlor: I mean, we've all seen documentaries of artists from decades ago and kind of all the pre-work they did before even being pushed to being allowed to release a single or being allowed to perform a song. And that looks very different now. It almost seems like things are backwards, but not in a reverse engineer backwards. It's more just like, this happened and so now let's capitalize on that. And I think that we're kind of seeing some of the negative effects of premature success if you will. [00:11:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think that, on a more recent level, I think about Olivia Rodrigo here in the US, everyone saw how big Sour was and they were like, oh, well, you could go tour arenas now.[00:11:20] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like her and her team talked about it. They're like, no, we're going to stick to the halls that we have. And it looks like she's performing in venues that have, you know, roughly several thousand, you know, capacity. At least that's what I saw here when she came through in San Francisco. And I think she may have done like Radio City or some of the others I would have to check, but I feel like that makes sense. You know, just given that, but I think this dynamic is even more pronounced in Africa, which a lot of the artists, which have recently become superstars there as well. And you talked a lot about that in the piece and Burna Boy, who I think is a great case study on this. [00:11:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, one, just loved the music coming out of the continent. And two, I think it's really fascinating in the way artists have to position their careers to really succeed both in the continent and on a global scale. You know, part of it in a way probably comes from socioeconomic factors and then as well as just having like really migrant diasporas.[00:12:16] Denisha Kuhlor: But because of that, artists are like really, I think, forced to prioritize performing in the beginning. And when you look at the audience, right, it is kind of those things that don't scale. It's the weddings, it's the really small club performances, it's the open mics, like things that used to be very common for artists everywhere.[00:12:37] Denisha Kuhlor: But seems like, has kind of, kind of slowed down. And so as a result, I think, without having an A&R, they kind of do their own a A&R, right? You've heard stories of artists who would come to a country once and like nobody came to see them. And then three years later, the show was sold out.[00:12:51] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, artists are not only able to refine their performances. They get quick feedback loops and they do it in a way that I think is authentic to them and their sound. And it forces them to win people over, right? If you're performing at a wedding, the percentage of people that might like you could be high, could be low. But ultimately you want to walk away with more fans, right? These people are giving you an opportunity to convert them or at least to try. Whereas now I think, unfortunately, a little bit of entitlement that comes with some artists, right? Even from being upset when the audience doesn't react a certain way, and that's just like a humility that I think African artists have, have embraced.[00:13:28] Denisha Kuhlor: In terms of converting, converting the fan or the listener. And I think you see that even more when the artist really begins to take a global approach. Everybody from, you know, Davido shutting out the power of, the power of New York, or why music from the continent has been able to get so big as of recently.[00:13:46] Denisha Kuhlor: And so I think that African artists are a great example in terms of looking to, to kind of do that slow climb, and that slow work to be able to get to the point where they can sell out arenas today. [00:13:57] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like the constraints that the industry has forced them to do the things that don't scale and because they exactly did that, that's how they're in the position they are today. And that's why Burna Boy's selling out Madison Square Garden, right? [00:14:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. And it's a safe space, if you will, to get feedback. I think, you know, so often as an artist, you're of course refining who you are in creative direction and all of that, but there's just some things that come from experience with being a performer and constantly just having those feedback loops to, to iterate on what songs work, what transitions work. When you see a Beyoncé at Coachella, that's years and decades of being able to study crowd reaction of how certain things flow, what works, what doesn't work to put on a show like that.[00:14:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the feedback loops piece is key too, 'cause obviously that's going to be harder to get from a festival because you don't even know if half these people are just, you know, burning time until the headliner comes, but you can actually see what the folks you're trying to reach resonate with. And this is something that I always thought about.[00:14:59] Dan Runcie: Tyler Perry, of course, this isn't music, but with his place, he would always talk about this, how he would switch things up. He's going on this large tour across different parts of the country. He's going to use certain jokes or use certain lines that are going to work in the South, that aren't going to work in the Northeast and aren't going to work on the West Coast, and things like that.[00:15:18] Dan Runcie: And anyone that is performing that actually sees how the people that they are reaching, interact with the stuff while they're doing it. It almost always leads to a better product so that when they are doing the movies or when they are doing the mass thing, they can hit the ground running. [00:15:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's really true. And you know, as you're talking, it makes me think about like, maybe there's even a certain archetype of artists and like, one that doesn't, like, heavily involve performance. Like, I think a lot about comedians and what the, what a comedian looks like now. You have your Instagram comedians or, you know, TikTok comedy is as it's referred to, but not many of them are thinking about going on tour doing standup. And so maybe in some ways, even all-encompassing performer is different now. [00:16:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. I do think that for the people that are doing things live, it is easier to see it. I think that honestly, for people that write or podcast, it could be tougher because you, any type of feedback, there has to be at least some level of intent to let me reply to this email or let me follow up. I do think it's relatively easier for someone that has a newsletter to be able to do it relative to someone that's just writing standalone on a website. But I do think that when podcasters have live events and that is attracting people to a certain area, like, that's how they're able to get around this. But everyone, I think most creators, the more IRL things you have, whatever it is that you create, you're going to get more value out of that. [00:16:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I totally agree with you there. [00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the person that I think actually kind of challenges this with some nuance perspective is Cardi B, especially at the highest level, just considering that we're now, it's been four years since Invasion of Privacy.[00:17:00] Dan Runcie: I think it's been five years since Bodak Yellow came out, which is wild to say, but I think there's a few things. One she's yet to do a true formal tour. And she's been the first to say that with, Hey, I'm getting seven-figure guarantees to go do stuff over in Europe. And sometimes I even get those checks here in the US to perform in headline festivals.[00:17:21] Dan Runcie: Why would I go through all of the things that are involved with touring? And to be fair, there are some challenges that many artists have with touring, whether it's okay, making sure that the lighting and everything is set up right. And the production looks great on that first event that you have, because if that doesn't hit right, then that's going to impact the sales for everything else.[00:17:40] Dan Runcie: So even though we know that, yeah, that's part of doing things that don't scale. You have to do it. Some artists are fearful of that. And I think sometimes she may, you know, or at least she's alluded to her avoiding that, or even just the cost. Like, she even talked to herself about how the first time she did Coachella, it cost her more money than she actually got from the events of doing it just because of how much she spent on those things.[00:18:01] Dan Runcie: And, you know, she, at least, of her perspective sounds like she wants to be able to build up leverage likely in order to command a, you know, 40, 50 plus city arena tour that would likely match up with her star power. And I feel like that's part of the thing because I remember there was this debate going on, where people were wondering, okay, you know, if she does, like, what she would do.[00:18:26] Dan Runcie: And of course you'd all the Nicki Minaj haters were being like, oh, well she's not doing a tour 'cause she can't sell out a tour. And it's like, okay, I don't think it's that, you know, egregious. You all can, the barbs can relax a bit. But I do think that, you know, part of what I think makes it kind of tough, especially from a, a social following perspective, which I know is something that we've talked about before is that with certain artists, the reason that people follow you, you mentioned this earlier, isn't always because they're, like, vibing with your music.[00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, Cardi B puts out a lot of, you know, beauty shots to show off her fashion to show off her glamor, and some people may like that stuff and they may have not even listened to WAP or any of the, you know, bigger hits she has so how do you quantify that? So I'm very interested to see, one, what this next album looks like and what her next live performance strategy looks like.[00:19:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, if, if I was like thinking about what would be interesting for Cardi B, I think ultimately it'd be kind of a hybrid experience, right? Like I think you nailed it on the head in the sense that Cardi is a lifestyle, a lifestyle brand that has many different pillars that stand for many different things.[00:19:36] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really resonate with her, but for all types of things. And so, you know, you see more artists creating their own festivals and I don't know if there's a potential to, like, pilot what that, like, hybrid concept could look like maybe in the Bronx or somewhere unique to her.[00:19:50] Denisha Kuhlor: But I think that ultimately it will need to encompass everything that she represents. And so while the music will, of course, be one of those pillars, I feel like it could be, or would be so much, so much more. And given that she has so many brand deals and endorsements with companies that really appreciate her for the lifestyle brand that she is, I think it could be really, really unique.[00:20:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Even a partner with a festival promoter, you know, Rolling Loud is working with Chris Brown and Lil Baby as they go on tour. Like, even to, to have that partnership in a way that's really authentic and unique to her, I think is going to be fascinating. I feel like she's the artist that can kind of push the envelope in terms of experiencing her or artist in a way that we haven't necessarily thought of. You know, so often I think about, I think about like the rise or, of nightclubs and like branded parties. And right now you kind of see like two things, right? There's like really popular nightclubs that will just exist by virtue of like being a marquee name, whether that's the LIV and LIV on Sunday, but then you also have parties, right? And the parties exist without the, the venues. What I constantly think about is, like, everyday people is the party. It's not about where everyday people is or more, or more so where they're going. And so I think that's like a similar thing, that Cardi brings and the ability that she's so much of the brand, that it's more so about what she wants to do and where she'll bring people to that medium versus following the traditional way things have been done before. [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the branded piece, it, especially being able to have some type of partner with the concert or with the tour more broadly, would be big because I'm thinking about some of the recent ones we've seen. And even some of these are just slight nuances, like Kendrick Lamar partnering with Cash App for his Big Steppers tour.[00:21:28] Dan Runcie: He has coming up. I saw The Weeknd has one of these crypto companies. I think it's Binance. Yeah, Binance is doing his tour and he's doing like a big stadium tour for this run that he has coming up. And I think that just opens it up to be like, yeah, you could have many other folks. It doesn't always necessarily have to be, you know, Visa credit card holders to get the pre-check or whatever it is to get the early thing. You know, you can actually have, you know, other partners that are aligned with many of the brands and partnerships that Cardi has already had relationships with. [00:22:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And I really thought, you know, the Kendrick and Cash App partnership was fascinating to me because of, I feel like, the message it sent, right? Like, to me, it almost said like, let's make this tour accessible to all our fans versus the barrier to entry, you know, while it's nice to have an Amex Platinum, not everyone does so like versus the barrier to entry. And I think that's another really important thing with touring, right?[00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Like controlling the barriers to entry in which your fans get to see you. And so, you know, it just really symbolized to me that, like, in a way, Kendrick, like, wants his biggest fans there and he's going to remove the barriers to entry to do so. So that was a, I really enjoyed seeing that partnership.[00:22:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point because I think one of the challenges that we've seen over the years with live shows and live entertainment pricing for events is artists that are trying to price things in a way to give fans a fair chance. But also understanding that the reseller market is going to, you know, take it up to a crazy amount and then you have artists buying back and then trying to sell it themselves as resellers. And I know it could just get so messy when you see that. But I think it's clearly done because they want to be able to make sure that the actual fans can do it. But yeah, if you're just giving it to like Amex Platinum and Black Card holders, then it isn't going to work Like, we've all seen the dynamics of how Cash App grew. Cash App grew because of hip-hop fans 'cause of hip-hop influencers pushing this, and then that's how they're able to grow in the South and grow in places that Venmo didn't grow. So have it all lined up if you're trying to reach those people.[00:23:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. You know, in, in the years to come and especially with the rise of tech and really probably as a result of rising customer acquisition costs on Facebook ads and other platforms. Partnering with tech companies is going to be a great source, a great source of revenue.[00:23:52] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think just authentic partnership for artists. And ultimately it'll come down to their methodology behind choosing the right partners and what it says about how they value or how they desire to connect with their audiences. So I'm excited to see more, more partnerships, especially, I guess not just in the FinTech space, but consumer technology space overall. And I think we can tell, you know, even just as regular fans, whether it's authentic or not. Cash App made so much sense, everybody was like, of course. And I think the best part about it was people were like, oh, I have an account. Like, I've already done X thing. And so this just naturally fits in with my lifestyle. [00:24:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I, I think we'll see more of it. I hope we continue to, I know a lot of these companies have been US-based, but I'm really excited to see what's going to be coming from Africa specifically because there's so much music activity.[00:24:43] Dan Runcie: We already talked about the artists coming through and how the artists themselves in many ways will have better chops just because of the constraints that you know, are there that currently existed that we talked about earlier. What are you seeing in the space? What excites you?[00:24:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I've been really excited about everything coming out of the continent, both from a music standpoint and venture standpoint.[00:25:04] Denisha Kuhlor: It's interesting because for a long time telcos have been heavily involved in underwriting artists, artists careers, right? So a lot of performances and even festivals are heavily sponsored by telcos on the continent. And so they've always had a role and I think kind of understood the value in investing in partnering with, with artists early. I think what's evolving is the amount of money coming to the continent, especially as it relates to startups and funding tech companies.[00:25:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And so as a result, like they realize the value as well and investing in music. And you see a lot of those partnerships. I mean, Chipper Cash is partnered with Burna Boy, right? So, like looking at, like, one of the most valued FinTech companies in Africa and one of the biggest artists in Africa, I think we're going to continue to see those relationships and those partnerships. I also think that it's going to evolve to a natural progression that we saw here as that artists want a bit more, a bit more of the pie. And so while, you know, speculating, I think a lot of these deals are, you know, cash, maybe a small range of cash and a little bit of equity.[00:26:06] Denisha Kuhlor: I think we're going to see artists want to become a lot more hands-on, especially for projects that are commoditized. And in a lot of ways, remittances or some of these FinTech products are, are really dependent on your ability to have a license. And so as artists maybe get to start to be able to navigate that landscape and bring together teams, I would be, I wouldn't be surprised to see them launch products of their own in similar spaces.[00:26:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, there's so much, I also look at what's happening in music specifically. Of course, as we know all the major record labels have a presence, not just in the, you know, continent overall, but in the different areas. I mean, it's huge. You can't just, you know, have a presence in South Africa and think you're going to cover everything happening sub Sahara or everywhere else.[00:26:52] Dan Runcie: Like, you need to be focused on what's happening in a particular area. And I think too, we saw earlier this year in Andreessen Horowitz had made its first investment in that mobile games company, Carry1st, I think we're going to see more and more of that. And I do think that we're going to see even more innovation in African music.[00:27:12] Dan Runcie: I know that all the streaming services have been trying to acquire more subscribers and more listeners in those places. But yeah, the dominant listening in many ways is still downloads of the companies that have been able to focus on that. So there's so many unique aspects that I'm excited to see play out.[00:27:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. Another, you know, another, I guess, thing that's really interesting to me is the kind of the conversation lately, as it relates to like what type of music has dominated. I've seen and talked to a lot of folks who kind of hypothesized that, like the reason music coming out of the continents and has grown so much is because it's very universal in a way where everybody can participate. Like say, on the dance floor, just experiencing the music versus kind of some of the hip-hop and rap music that has dominated that's really driven by club culture, and bottle popping culture, and VIP, and sections and, and that whole thing.[00:28:07] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, I find that, I find that dynamic fascinating as well in kind of the universal sense that it brings. And you see that on like TikTok, like how many, like, dances can you make to a song about like popping bottles versus just like a really great beat? [00:28:24] Dan Runcie: Right, right. Yeah. Do you feel like TikTok is having the same impact there on the continent that it is in the US? Are you noticing anything that's unique or different? [00:28:34] Denisha Kuhlor: No. I, I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. As someone who's spent, you know, time in Ghana as well as in the States, like, I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. [00:29:10] Denisha Kuhlor: So in a lot of ways, I feel like I go or spend time on the continent to see, to see what's new. And then TikTok is probably the biggest indicator of what's most likely to take off from there. But I would look at, you know, some of these cities, especially around nightlife, as more of the curators and, and the tastemakers and TikTok, just being a mirror of, in some ways, the work that's already been done. [00:29:31] Dan Runcie: Okay. So it's more so following the culture, not setting it. [00:29:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, to some extent that's, I would say maybe it's, it's a little different in the US because I do think that what we see on TikTok in some ways does set where people end up following, at least here, right? Because I think you just see so many trends originating from things people do. You're more likely to see clips from TikTok posted and shared on other platforms, as opposed to what you may see, vice versa. So I feel like, yeah. [00:30:05] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I think it's definitely, I think it's definitely very different and I think it's what makes being an artist a little, a little tricky because if you are an American artist, for example, and your song is becoming the biggest thing in Ghana, that probably has very, you know, different implications for how you navigate that or how you think about career and how you think about strategy.[00:30:24] Denisha Kuhlor: And, you know, unfortunately, I guess if you're an artist maybe who has risen on TikTok primarily in the States, what does that mean when it comes time for touring or time to do a date? How is that attention converted? Because the fact of the matter is American fans just have more opportunities to patronize their favorite artists.[00:30:42] Denisha Kuhlor: When you look at the amount of venues and just like analysis to, and ways you can interact with artists here, there's just so many, so many option. And so that conversion rate is high or is harder. [00:30:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that reminds me of something else I've heard artists say. This isn't anything new, but they've said that they always get more love when, US artists specifically, they always get more love when they perform outside of the US because the US artists, they see plenty of things there or the US fans necessarily, they have more opportunities to see you. So they're not necessarily as like wilder, they take the moment in as special as it is, as opposed to the artists that are going outside of the USA perform. [00:31:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, I talk to folks around when J Cole in Nigeria. And I think that was such a great example. Like, he had just released the album that day and was shocked that people knew, that people knew every word. And specifically, I think when artists come to the continent, it's always an occasion, right? People are really excited.[00:31:42] Denisha Kuhlor: Cardi B was a great example. People are just like really excited in some ways that they're like participating. Like, we didn't go to you, you came to us. You value us enough to do that. And I think, you know, regardless whether it's Africa or Japan or even Europe, like, there's just a, yeah, there's just a different level of, of appreciation.[00:32:00] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really, really hold onto it as an experience that will, that will be with them. And unfortunately, because of some of these, these festivals, like you can casually see an artist that you don't even like that much. Multiple times, like, you know, I don't, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but let's say if you go to every Rolling Loud festival in New York, just once a year, how many artists have overlapped or how many artists have you seen multiple times?[00:32:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Just as a result of patronizing that one Fest. And so as a result, the star power, the whole je ne sais quoi, kind of, kind of falls away. But I think you don't get that same type of, I guess, performance burnout or consumer burnout when you do headline your own tour because it's something different every time. It's experiencing, you know, Beyoncé fans, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but I think the beauty and what her Coachella performance was. Everyone knew the songs, right, we knew the music for the most part, but it, it was now just experiencing it in a different way and in a way that she wanted us to experience it. And unfortunately, I don't think artists get to do that in the same way with festivals they're not headlining. [00:33:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The Rolling Loud example always makes me think of Future. I always say that he has a low-key residency at that. I, I actually went back, and counted this. I forget how many Rolling Louds there have been, but at least 40% of them, he has been a headliner at.[00:33:23] Dan Runcie: I mean, it's a high number and to your point, I mean, I'm sure that paycheck's great. I, I'm not concerned about, you know, Future from a buddy perspective. He is prolific, and, I mean, he had one of the best-selling albums so far this year, but yeah, to your point that is kind of, I think, Future is a model that clicks with that as well.[00:33:42] Dan Runcie: He's going to put out music early and often. He's going to perform, and he's always going to be there. And I think for him it works, but it's just not going to be the same thing necessarily as. Beyoncé record or something like that.[00:33:55] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I'm curious, how do you think that impacts like an artist's elasticity, like, of course, with more and more artists selling their catalogs and just navigating the world as an artist very differently, how do you think that does impact their just elasticity in the music game overall? [00:34:12] Dan Runcie: I think it's twofold because I think that to one point, a lot of artists do feel like they have to keep the content machine turning. I think that's, that kinda line, lines up with Daniel Ek, Spotify CEO, and what he had said that was a polarizing statement at the time of you releasing music every three years, isn't going to be enough anymore. So I do think that someone like Future has lead into that and say, okay, I have this base and I know they're going to listen to everything that I put out, whatever I do it. So let me maximize that.[00:34:49] Dan Runcie: And I think for someone like Future because as popular as he is with a particular demo, one, his mainstream popularity isn't quite where it was like when like DS2 came out in 2015. So he's definitely serving more of the large, but, you know, core fans. And I think just given some of the issues that people have about him, and, of course, we've all seen the memes about, you know, problematic Future sending, you know, the text to the, to the ex or whatever it is.[00:35:20] Dan Runcie: Like, I don't think that he necessarily has the same marketability to let's say, go launch a, you know, huge, whatever it is, the same way that we see the Beyoncé or Rihanna do it. That doesn't mean he can't, he can obviously still has the platform. So I do think for him and even someone like an NBA YoungBoy who, you know, is even younger, then releasing music early and often kind of works for them because they may not get, you know, like, the big deal from whatever company wanting to partner with them, but they could reach their fans directly. So they're going to maximize that. So I think it's a little different though, when you are a Beyoncé or you are a Rihanna where, you know, there's so many other things you're doing, so when you release music, you do want it to hit because you want it to have this halo effect over everything else that you're doing.[00:36:06] Dan Runcie: There's anomalies to this, of course, I mean, or not anomalies, but I think some folks will do it differently. I mean, Drake is still going to give you a release every year, every other year. Kanye West has likely been doing the same, but I do think that that's still different than, you know, how like Future's going about it.[00:36:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Agreed. Agreed. I wonder 10 years from now or 15 years from now if Future is still touring or even releasing music, what that relationship looks like, and even what a tour would look like given the brevity of music he's put out. [00:36:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. To be honest, I think he likely will, just a matter of like, you know, what does it look like? How big and like, you know, like, the dynamics there. I recently posed the question on Twitter, which artist do you expect to still be releasing music when they're 70 plus years old? I don't think many people mentioned him, but I would definitely put him in that category. I feel like not too far away from 40. I do think that, you know, he loves this, for better or worse, and I feel like he'll likely continue. [00:37:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in, in rap, it's still so new, which is crazy that we have just seen enough examples of that. And so these probably, or artists like Future will be those, those examples for us to look back at.[00:37:20] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think so much of this, with this whole conversation, we're talking about the relationship between fans and how fans really help you format what you're doing and how to really set the framework for your career. And this aligns with the work that you're doing now. You recently launched and, and announce the company you have with Stan that is helping artists have a more fan-focused approach to their careers. So can you talk a bit more about that? [00:37:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So I recently decided to go full-time on a music tech startup called Stan, focused on audience engagement infrastructure, so really to help artists understand their audiences at a micro and macro level with the goal of providing better fan experiences. I kind of think it's crazy in some ways that every industry that wants to encourage a repeatable customer behavior has a loyalty program, but unfortunately, artists have very fragmented loyalty programs. And of course, the rise of NFTs and specific things as it relates to streaming platforms or even email lists. We've seen artists make great attempts, I think at doing and running really effective programs, but I really want to add more, more science to the arts to create, if you will, moments of magic on a greater scale. So artists can better connect with their fan bases. [00:38:36] Dan Runcie: Nice. Where did the inspiration come from? I'm sure a lot of it is things we talked about in this conversation.[00:38:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so much of it. Interestingly enough, it has come from writing. I long admired, of course, Trapital and, and other platforms. And really just wanted to explore, like, the conversation of fan relationships. And I think fan relationships have evolved so much, but wanted to kind of like push the, push the envelope in terms of what was being explored as it relates to the fan-artist relationship and also highlight how sophisticated fans are of course, with, you know, the rise of, of stans and how much they're covered. I think that people think of fans as just like, okay, like a casual listener and then the overzealous fan. And I think that's such a, that's such a gap and fandoms operate in such a sophisticated way, that we really needed to push the conversation on what that looked like.[00:39:25] Denisha Kuhlor: And as a result, the more I kept writing, the greater, like the problem became to me in the sense of, I think there's a lot of really, really amazing platforms designed to, you know, be direct to fan and connect the artists to the fan. But for anybody that's in any type of relationship business, I think it feels a little used car salesman to, like, try and extract money, like immediately, like, Hey, I just met you, like, give me this thing. And so I felt like there was a, an over-focus on the monetization of fan bases. Before fan bases were frankly strong enough to, to survive that monetization. So I kind of wanted to take it back a step to say, if you have a really strong relationship, relationships are everything, right? You'll be able to survive and not even just survive, thrive, because you can withstand volatility and maybe even turmoil.[00:40:13] Dan Runcie: So what does it look like from the artist's perspective? Like, if I wanted get involved, like, what does that engagement look like? [00:40:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So we're currently in the experimentation phase playing around with products and experiments that allow us to hit product-market fit. We're gearing up for a beta. So I love to talk to any artists that think really intensely about connecting with their fans. But ideally, we love to work with artists that, one, want to create, like, what I call moments of magic. And so like some great examples is J Cole, right? Like, not only the Dollar & A Dream Tour,, but going to, going to this fan's graduations or how do you actively and naturally involve yourself in your fan's life in a way that feels authentic and encourages a bidirectional relationship.[00:40:55] Denisha Kuhlor: As a result, a lot of the work that we're doing is analyzing artists and their current data as well as tapping into, into new data sets as a result of creating games, as well as just different forms for artists to connect with their fans. So any artist that, one, thinks deeply about this, that wants to understand their data better across multiple platforms. We, we'd love to talk to you, especially as we work with artists on an ad hoc basis to gear up for the launch of the platform. [00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. I mean, as we both know, this type of need is more crucial than ever, and there's so much data that can be misleading or misunderstood as you've talked about before you can't just go on a follower account. You can't just go on Spotify listens. Some of these things correlate, but a lot of them don't. [00:41:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, it's so true. You know, I think Spotify Wrapped is always so interesting to me in the sense that it's great, right? And what became even more interesting was when fans, fans, of course, post, but then to see artists post, right?[00:41:54] Denisha Kuhlor: And kind of what that meant for them and the excitement. And so there were things that I felt like off the bat, like, certain artists expected to get, right, you expected to have every country represented when it came to countries listened or just certain things represented, but I thought a lot about it.[00:42:08] Denisha Kuhlor: And I was just like, that one snapshot into a portion of your fan base. Like, what does that tell you from an actionable data perspective? But I guess before we can even know how relevant or how much you can guide your actions around those results is how much of your fan base is on Spotify? Like you mentioned, in actual, like, a lot of music is listened through downloads or partnerships with telcos and other streaming platforms.[00:42:31] Denisha Kuhlor: People use Audiomack, and Boomplay, and different streaming platforms. And so without, like, knowing an aggregate, what your Spotify listeners even represent when it comes to your audience? It can also be a slippery slope to make directions based on the most advanced data sets. If they're not really replicative of your whole audience.[00:42:51] Dan Runcie: Right. Because I think one of the things that I often see with Spotify specifically is that people will, especially in the US, they'll use it as like a rule of thumb to say that, okay, you see the data that comes to you from Spotify, either multiply it by three or three and a half or four. And maybe that gives you a rough idea of how big the overall streaming market is for a particular artist, but that works in the US that doesn't work for artists elsewhere. So being able to see those distinctions, especially considering how global the music industry is, that's where people can actually make actionable insight. [00:43:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. I think, you know, artists are really starting to approach their careers from a global standpoint will be really, really helpful moving forward.[00:43:33] Denisha Kuhlor: And as they consider the elasticity of their own careers, especially given that, like, smaller markets can be more forgiving, right? And so even if you don't want to necessarily go through the 50-city 500-person venue tour, what about going to just a smaller market globally and getting that feedback, being able to perform, really connecting with your fans that way too.[00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree with you. I think that artists are just going to really have to be global from day one and as a result just because you're familiar with consuming music in a certain way, isn't necessarily how your entire fan base is going to do it. So becoming more sophisticated around what that looks like and how you can best work with those platforms will be really, really advantageous moving forward.[00:44:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Definitely. [00:44:15] Dan Runcie: And you're in a great position to be able to do that. So I feel like the timing lines up well with this. So for you specifically, for the people that either are listening, or whether they're artists or working with artists, where can they follow up? Where could they go? [00:44:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah. So you can find me on Denisha Kuhlor at Twitter, love Twitter so always on there. And then you can just shoot me an email at d@stan.fan as well. [00:44:38] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Denisha, this was great. I feel like we covered a bunch of things that are happening right now in the industry and yeah, very timely. So thanks again for coming. [00:44:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Of course. Thanks for having me. [00:44:49] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

“Content is queen” is the mantra of this week’s Trapital’s guest, Sherrese Clarke Soares. The phrase has a double-meaning. For one, it’s the heart of her investment firm, HarbourView Equity Partners, which specializes in acquiring content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. But on a personal level, the phrase also represents her unique place in the industry as a rare Black and female founder. Sherrese founded HarbourView in 2021. This came on the heels of founding Tempo Music and ten-plus years at Morgan Stanley. These experiences have put Sherrese front and center with IP, understanding not only its financial incentives, but its cultural value too.HarbourView is backed with up to $1 billion in investment capital from Apollo Global Management. Within months of its founding, HarbourView acquired the music catalog of Luis Fonsi and with that, the decade-defining hit “Despacito.” It was the latest splash in the booming business of catalog sales that ecliped over $5 billion in 2021 alone. What’s Sherrese's strategy with Fonsi’s catalog plus other IP acquisitions? You’ll want to listen to the full episode to find out, plus a whole lot more. Here’s everything we covered during our interview:[3:27] Why Sherrese Created Her Own Firm, HarbourView[6:55] Why HarbourView Team Looks Different Than Any Other Investment Group[10:31] Hip-Hop Investments Being Overlooked[15:28] Why HarbourView Acquired Luis Fonsi’s Music Catalog[17:21] HarbourView’s “Forever Owner” Strategy To IP[22:47] Owning IP In web3 [24:22] Owning IP Vs. Owning Distribution [28:24] Current Market Conditions Impact On Catalog Investments[33:39] Music Industry In Better Shape Now Compared To 2008 Recession[35:54] Building A Next-Gen Asset Management Firm[37:25] Opportunities In Reggae & Ska[39:11] Importance of Mentorship in Private EquityListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Sherrese Clarke Soares, @sherreseclarkesoares Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION[00:00:00] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross-pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside. [00:00:27] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Sherrese Clarke Soares. She's the founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, a global investment firm that's focused on premium content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. You may know the name from some of the music catalog acquisitions she's done a couple months back.[00:01:14] Dan Runcie: The firm acquired Luis Fonsi's catalog and got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. So we talked about that and we talked about Sherrese's strategy more broadly for the firm. One of the things that has always stuck out to me about the music investment space is that you don't see as many big deals for hip-hop, R&B, or genres outside of the US, especially considering how popular all of these are in the streaming era and likely will continue to be.[00:01:43] Dan Runcie: So we talked about how Sherrese's firm is focused on the wide space and how she sees us as an opportunity that others may not. And we talked more broadly about the entertainment space, what some of the investment opportunities that HarbourView is looking at outside of music and other emerging trends as they relate to the main streaming services and other technology platforms and more. Here's my conversation with Sherrese. All right. Today we're joined by Sherrese Clarke Soares and you've been a high-demand guest. So I'm glad we could finally do this. [00:02:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I'm glad we can, too. Thank you for having me. [00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think one of the reasons people want to hear from you is because you've accomplished a lot in your career both Morgan Stanley and at Tempo, and now you have your own firm and it'll be great to hear a bit about the journey and specifically that moment that you knew that you wanted to break out and launch your own company in this space. [00:02:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. Well, super great to be here. I guess just the journey is, you know, it's like one of those things that people talk about, it's the overnight success, 20 years in the making.[00:02:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: It's been something that I've wanted to do for a long time, which is to be an investor in the entertainment space, entertainment media, you know, sports, even, because of how much I believe in the power and the impact of what content does. You know, obviously, it brings stories across the world and has the ability to shape hearts and minds.[00:03:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But it also brings joy, like so much of what we all know and have fond memories of, especially when it comes to music are things that are momentous and important times in our lives. And so something that's so core to the human condition to me is nothing but a great investment opportunity. So that's, I think, you know, that's, I guess, one kind of critical piece of the journey.[00:03:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: As it relates to starting HarbourView HarbourView. I started in January, 2021 after resigning from my post as CEO of Tempo Music, which was a platform that I founded out of work I was doing at Morgan Stanley. There's so many things, you know, as I was putting together that platform, when I was at Morgan Stanley, I got multiple offers from different investors.[00:03:46] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We ultimately chose to work with Providence Equity Partners because of their intimate knowledge of the media space. But one of the things, I guess for me was I was, it was my first deal in terms of becoming an investor and finally getting to do what I wanted to do. So I didn't really, you know, in hindsight, negotiate the best deal for myself as it relates to, you know, economics for something that I was building with my own two hands.[00:04:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And it basically started from a blank sheet of paper in 2015 when I was pregnant with my son, actually. And so I really finally had this moment and this aha moment of, one, there's an opportunity, people are looking for people who, who are like me and have the track record that I have to back me and I was getting a lot of actually reverse inquiry when I was at Tempo for investors to back what I had built a lot of unsolicited inbounds.[00:04:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that was largely because I had spent so much time trying to curate investors to really support what it was that I was looking to build. And so that started to give me some confidence that, you know, that there was really an appetite for the firm and the vision that I was looking to build. And so I resigned in December of 2020 with, you know, the idea that I really was going to build a firm that was bigger than music.[00:05:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Tempo was also only designed to be a music rights acquisition platform. And I really wanted to do music 'cause I love it, but also do things outside of music as well. So I launched HarbourView and went about the business of finding the right partner for us. We knew we wanted to partner with a large scale asset manager to really turbo charge and accelerate our growth.[00:05:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we did that in October of 2021, where we launched a billion-dollar partnership with Apollo, but importantly, we are independent. We're an independent firm and we're able to retain that independent and that discretion over how we invest, how we think about building out the firm, which is great. And so was able to do that in October, launched officially in October in terms of our capital partnership and have been out, telling our story to the world and really looking at building a coalition that believes in our vision, which is in identifying opportunities that other people have a hard time seeing because they kind of only invest from their own, from their native walks. Whereas we, by virtue of being a diverse team, we believe in the power of thinking about things differently.[00:06:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, so that's what we've been up to. It's really exciting. I'm joined by exceptional humans that have joined me on this journey. We're all really aligned to the vision and the mission with all of my team, including my assistant, really participating in the equity upside of the business, where 13 full-time professionals, soon to be a 14th.[00:06:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, we've been pretty busy since October. We've made a number of investments, some of which we've announced, some of which we are about to announce. And so, continue to look forward to that. And we're, you know, pretty active in the market while also starting to think about investment opportunities outside of music, which we're really, which we're really, really jazzed about.[00:06:42] Dan Runcie: Could you talk a bit more about the opportunities specifically for your diverse team and the opportunities that investors saw in you that you feel that the market wasn't focusing on? [00:06:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah. So I would say, like, one of the things that's critical to us is obviously, you know, we are who we are. And so, you know, when you look at us as an investment team, we very naturally look different than any other investment team that you will see.[00:07:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, the collage of who we are as a team is always like my proudest moment of a page when I'm showing into anyone in the world and telling our story, because we are really sort of, you know, I know you're Jamaican, too, by heritage. And so, you know, as, as you know, we have a statement "Out of many, one people," and so it really does kind of resonate with that.[00:07:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so from that perspective, that was really resonating with how we talked to investors, including Apollo, which was great. They saw that in us immediately, but also how we think about the world. We think differently. And we think our difference is our strength. And so what that means is that we have approached the opportunities based with a very data-focused mindset.[00:07:45] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that data-focused mindset actually leads to the truth, which the truth is that we own a lot of things that are in the Latin space, and the hip-hop space, and R&B space, which we're all really proud of because we also are showing very quantitatively and, with data, that that's where the real growth and the real opportunity is in our perspective.[00:08:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we tend to try to, again, lead with this idea that the world is round and not flat. And what we mean by that is a lot of investors tend to do the same playbook over and over again, or a template that, you know, many other people do. We're very focused on building a pathway that allows us to not take anything for granted to not come into a situation with preconceived notions, to really try to identify what we think our value add is to an opportunity set, whether it's in music or otherwise and how we really can envision the future.[00:08:40] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that really, I think, has been resonating with investors, with our partners because it is a differentiated approach to how other people are thinking about it. In the music space, obviously, there's a lot of great firms, many of whom we admire who have done really fantastic things, but we just differentiate our strategy from that.[00:08:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are not aiming to be a music operator, a music label, or a publishing business, or otherwise. We are really aiming to be a really strategic partner from an economic perspective and financial perspective to the overall ecosystem. So that really allows us to think creatively and to do really creative things and really be respectful of the fact that, you know, the creative ecosystem itself has gone through its own journey, has offers and brings a lot to the table. But in a similar vein, we as seasoned investors bring a lot to the table, too. And so we're able to engage in the way that's differentiated from others that are kind of purely looking at it from an operating perspective. [00:09:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We're looking at it from, like, okay, how can we join forces together and really drive upside for both sides of the equation? So we, we typically try to, in anything that we do, any investment that we make, structure how everybody benefits on a go-forward basis together. [00:09:49] Dan Runcie: I'm very glad you're focused on this piece because one thing that I've always scratched my head at is I've talked to other people who are investors in this space.[00:09:58] Dan Runcie: And I would always hear from them specifically about hip-hop music that, oh, well, it isn't mature enough. And they don't feel like it's proven or they feel like it's too disposable or they feel like sampling is a challenge. But if you look at streaming data, which a lot of this has been influenced by, especially with the current wave of acquisitions.[00:10:18] Dan Runcie: It's hip-hop, it's Latin music where we think about the genres that have shown the power and the potential, especially on a worldwide perspective. I'm like, you can't overlook this forever. So, you know, in many ways it's their loss.[00:10:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Well, mostly, yeah, you know, people do what they're very comfortable with. So it's like things that they know, see, and hear, which, you know, I get it. And I'm okay with, I guess, to a point. You know, I'm excited about everything in the classic rock space, as much as anybody else. Like, I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan of all of it, like, grew up on all of it, enjoyed it, listened to it, but I'm also a child that was raised in the hip-hop era.[00:10:53] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like hip-hop is going to be 50 years old next year. Like, that's not an immature thing. You know, I don't think we're calling 50-year-old people children, in which case, there is a lot that underlines it. And so it's all about how you sift through the data, how you look at what your, what you think is driving and where you think things are going to go, which gives us a point of view that we think again, is differentiated.[00:11:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We have a lot of things in our portfolio that we believe to be really strong for the culture, really strong from a legacy perspective. And we think has really extraordinary growth potential for a variety of different reasons. And so we don't believe that view. And again, we don't have any preconceived notions about what's going to work and what isn't going to work.[00:11:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We really try to be genre-agnostic. So, you know, we own a little bit of everything. Like, we're closing this week, a couple of things in the country market, which we're really excited about. We've closed things in the rock market, which we're really excited about, but we are never going to ignore genres such as hip-hop, R&B, et cetera.[00:11:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Latin are places where it may be a very local experience. Like, one of the artists in our catalog is Eslabon Armando. And last week, he crossed a billion streams and was on the cover of Billboard. And he is a Mexican, local Mexican artist, and one of the best in the game, but not very well known here in the US market or in the, you know, pop, you know, the, the pop market, if you will.[00:12:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so just giving a sense for there is a lot to local music, and so I'm sure you can, you know, commiserate, like growing up, what did you listen to on Saturday and Sunday morning in your house? It was not necessarily, like, you know, what was playing on the radio. It was what your mom and dad grew up to.[00:12:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Those rhythmic sounds of soca or reggae or local, which is very local music, but there are billions of people like us around the world that connect with a very differentiated experience. And so we're really bullish on things like that because we know that just, we just know that intrinsically based on who we are, that this is popular music.[00:12:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we also know intrinsically that, you know, technology is bringing broadband globally to a lot of places where it hasn't existed before. So you intersect those two things and you see growth. And we again drive through data to come to these conclusions, which again, leads us with what I think is the best outcome, a data-driven, you know, evidential support and not just an empathetic one, that this is all real.[00:13:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we have known it for a long time in technology has democratized it, such that we can see it evidenced in a real way. [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the data-driven approach a few times. Is there anything that the data is telling you that you see as a huge opportunity coming up soon that you think that others may be overlooking or not thinking about as much?[00:13:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, 100%. I don't share that though, because then everybody starts, the next thing, you know, people start chasing down my sources. Yeah, no, 100%. That's I think how we, that's how we're differentiated. That's how we find differentiated opportunities. And, you know, we think about that every single day. So we are constantly building our own proprietary data system that we love.[00:14:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we don't think that anybody else has anything nearly matched to it. I started to build one at my previous platform, but didn't have the resources candidly to actually do it. And now that I do have the resources, we've built it out full sum in a way that we can analyze things from back, you know, backwards and forwards, including historical information all the way through to, you know, tapping into what's happening in real-time platforms, such as, you know, Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, et cetera.[00:14:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So it gives us a lot of really great insight, which again, I think just makes us approach this a little bit differently than even my predecessor. So, yeah, so it allows us to see a lot of stuff. And again, if I told you what I was seeing, then everybody would just try to go copycat it. What they probably can't copycat is how we've been able to build a really great platform around data analytics that we just continue to invest in.[00:14:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But that's who we are as a DNA, right? Like other people kind of use their DNA, the lead, their platforms, and they have great success in different ways, but our DNA is really around leading around that stuff. And so we're excited about that. [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: I hear you on that. And yeah, definitely don't want to give away any of the trade secrets, but let's talk about one of the deals we can talk about, which is the Luis Fonsi catalog, which your company had acquired. With that, you got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. What did it take to make that deal happen? [00:15:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think what it takes is a couple of things. The first is obviously again, leading with data, having a sense for the marketplace. Again, going back to like a local language, Spanish language song. It's going to resonate with a lot of people. They may not be people that you individually know, but it resonates with a lot of people.[00:15:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So from a thesis perspective, completely right on point. And secondly, like just spending time with Luis and the team, Angie and Denny and others, you know, we really connected on what we want, what at least what I personally want HarbourView to be, and how impactful I want it to be for the entertainment business overall, but particularly for recognizing the impact, the cultural impact that we, and I say, we like broadly people of color have in the world.[00:16:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And again, we buy everything, but it's important to me for that to be a level playing field. So I think it was really just spending time with the team, working through sort of the thesis, letting them know who we were thematically as a firm, what we care about. And then that really allowed us to sort of see a really great path together.[00:16:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, again, we built in partnership into that deal as we do into every deal. And that allows us to basically, he wants us to win. We want him to win, keep rooting for each other. And all the deals that we have in our portfolio, and we've closed close to 30 deals already so far, are all kind of very similar and kind of pick up on those very same themes of like, look, the things that we know and love are really impactful and important. And you're seeing it drive through, drive through data. [00:17:03] Dan Runcie: And after you acquire a catalog like this or any of the other ones in your portfolio, what does the post-sale activity on the asset look like? I know that in this space, a lot of people have talked about whether some investors are buy and hold versus trying to maximize the asset themselves.[00:17:21] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So the post-sale is, you know, look, we aim to be the forever owners of these assets and we look to provide return to our partners in various ways that we think is differentiated and one that we believe there's nobody better than our team to actually deliver. So we think about, like, how to create liquidity events while still maintaining the ownership ultimately of the catalog itself.[00:17:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so some of that will be in portfolio strategy. And so portfolio strategy for us is like, yeah, we're building an accumulating, a really huge library. We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside.[00:18:24] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that too, that extends into the multimedia aspect too. And obviously why you don't just want to have holded music. You're looking at other assets too, because obviously IP and music's there, but there's so much potential. You're looking at movies and TV shows and just where everything's going with video streaming on that front.[00:18:42] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Absolutely. But also think about this, two things. One is, again, my team is incredible, just again, an exceptional group of people, but they're athletes, they're not one-trick ponies. And so, you know, they really can think about things across the space. The other thing that's also happening as we engage deeper and deeper in the music space is the same thing is true from the parties that we partner with on the catalog side.[00:19:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, many have ideas of things that they want to do way beyond music. And sometimes people, you know, tend to hold a lot of that in a box. But if you look at, you know, culture, culture is led by music in a lot of ways. And so you can see that music is like, you know, kind of a leading indicator and that being a leading indicator helps you to really identify where to go next.[00:19:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we think that all of these things work very symbiotically together in giving our partners and our partners on the other side is people who are looking to invest in, you know, they, you know, engage in music engagement as well because they engage in music as it relates to how you're thinking about developing either new product on the film and television side and, or integrating it into what they're putting together.[00:19:51] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, again, there's, you know, there's a soundtrack. Every movie, just think about the synergies that exist across both. And so we're very focused on really thinking holistically about the learnings that we get from really understanding the asset itself, understanding the entertainment asset itself and how we think that can apply in other spaces as well and really being very, very intentional about leveraging that knowledge across a wider pool and really creating some of that synergistic upside opportunity. [00:20:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's how we think about it. And again, it's very differentiated than others who have been solely kind of a music operator with a fund vehicle that's attached to it or big firms that maybe only take kind of a point of view at one point in time on the relative value of the attractiveness of music.[00:20:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are residents, I like to say. We are not tourist. And means that we're here to stay. Like, we like the neighborhood, this is our block. We know the lady down the street, we know the person up the street, people may move in and out, but we'll be here. This is our home and this space of really kind of thinking about how all these things work together.[00:20:55] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure it's an exciting time on that front too, with just all the other emerging IP-related opportunities, whether it's with metaverse in gaming or other related things. What is that piece have been like? [00:21:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I think we're at early innings, you know, as my dear friend Morgan DeBaun, who's a CEO and founder of Blavity, likes to say, we're sort of in the MySpace era of Web 3.0, right? So like we all had a MySpace account and we all thought that was going to be it for social media. But truthfully, obviously we're looking at Facebook, and Instagram, and TikTok, and other things as sort of like what became the mature execution businesses of what social media is. I think Web 3.0 and the metaverse and all that is probably in the same place.[00:21:36] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So super excited about the potential, but we're still really early on what it will look like over time. But I think it's going to be huge for anybody who owns premium IP because that's, you know, again, how do we all decide how we're going to engage? We're going to engage because they're going to be sort of the ability to engage with anchoring around IP that we all kind of know love and care about.[00:21:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So I think it's going to be a really interesting time and an exciting time, exciting time as it relates to sort of the next frontier for a digital distribution. I mean, I'd like to tell people like, it's 2022. In 2012, which was 10 years ago, we weren't talking about streaming, we were talking about downloads and maybe sort of this disruptive technology where people were, obviously, at that point, pirating music. But we weren't talking about, you know, streaming leading how we consume both video and audio content.[00:22:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And 10 years from now, I think, streaming will be, is still a big part of the business model, but we've been talking about something else, too, and we don't know exactly what that is. But what we do know and if we look at over decades, not just the last 10 years, multiple decades, is that as distribution platforms pull up IPs at the center of it and really drives how those distribution platforms, you know, gain eyeballs, right?[00:22:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, I don't know if you remember back in the day when you were all growing up and, you know, if you had Comcast or, you know, I don't remember all the cable services anymore, AT&T. Every once in a while, there'd be a dispute between ESPN and AT&T and the screen would go black and you couldn't get your sports content.[00:23:03] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And who won over time, you know, the content owners, ESPNs and others, who were providing this kind of premium content to allow us all to pay a hundred dollars a month or $200 a month or whatever it is that we pay for cable to exist, you know, really kind of what we're able to command rates and outcomes. And so if you think about that as sort of, again, even a leading indicator around the power of content, this is sort of what we believe in intrinsically. And we believe that that's going to be applied in a Web 3.0 and the metaverse world as well. [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: That's a great point. And I mean, I couldn't agree more that, I think about a question I posed to a few people a few months back. It was on whether they would rather own universal music group stock or Spotify stock.[00:23:47] Dan Runcie: And the answers were pretty split. And I think I was a bit surprised and I was like, you wouldn't want to have the underlying asset that is having all of these other distribution deals with all of these other growing platforms as they are, you would rather take the bet on the one. And of course, you know, there's a case to be made on the other side, too.[00:24:03] Dan Runcie: But to your point about ESPN and the cable services, the underlying content does end up being the one that triumphs. [00:24:10] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. And I mean, listen, like Spotify positively changed the way that the business model and was like the leader and so kudos to Dan Ek and everything that he's built.[00:24:22] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so I think there is something to being kind of at the forefront of changing a distribution model because there's obviously a lot of room, and it's hard for people to catch up as we are seeing, and obviously why they in so much share. But just to be kind of a generic distribution provider, that's less interesting to me personally, because you get squeezed on both sides.[00:24:41] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You got to pay for the content and then you got to, you got to compete on price with your subscriber base. And so that's just to squeeze into the middle. That's just pure math. But when you see like platforms like, and we know Netflix is going through its adjustment period now, but when you see platforms like Netflix and Spotify, what ends up happening with them because they lead.[00:24:58] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And they're so far ahead as it relates to redefining the category, that's why they end up capturing a lot of value. So I hear the debate and understand the debate philosophically, but if you're just asking me, like, would I rather own IP versus would I rather own distribution, it's IP for me all day. Now, if somebody was going to redefine what distribution looks like, then, and in a way that we think is going to be a category killer, that may be a great place to invest because as we've seen, you know, distribution models that, that lead the category and disrupt actually win, for at least an extended period of time.[00:25:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's a great point at Spotify, too. I feel like they did change the space in what they've been able to do, and even how they've continued to diversify their own income streams. I think they've shown it had the proof points, you know, of what works. And I think similar to Netflix, to some extent, you know, they're changing a few things just given with the way things are, but.[00:25:52] Dan Runcie: I feel like it's an age old thing. I think one other aspect, I think about, too, just given you mentioned 2012 versus 2022, here we are now. And what the next decade will look like. I look at an app like TikTok where it wasn't a few years ago, where not that many people were talking about it, except for, you know, the early users.[00:26:10] Dan Runcie: And now it has a billion monthly active users. Fastest app to get there. That just means that that timeframe of getting to a billion monthly active users for the next thing is likely going to be even shorter than it was for TikTok. [00:26:23] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's right. And by the way, and now TikTok is super influential on music that we all listen to, on advertising, on how people get exposed to different things.[00:26:32] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, you know, the speed with which, to your point, getting to a billion active monthly users, you know, technology has really allowed to persist is incredible. And so I only think that'll get faster and faster and, you know, again, content, again, back to TikTok, like, you know, it's popularity was indexed off the back of music.[00:26:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so there's no denying that again, back to like, Seeing what's going to be the next thing. What's the next distribution model, what's the next use case will continue to proliferate. We've got inklings of things that exist now, whether it's out of home exercise or, you know, whether it's other social media platforms or whether it's gaming.[00:27:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we've inklings of that, but it's all still really small in the grand scheme of the revenue pie. But to, you know, as we've discussed and to your point, like the speed with which technology is changing and moving forward, the next next thing may be on the horizon in the next two, three years, or maybe something that, again, we're not even talking about now in the way that we weren't really talking about TikTok in 2018 or 19. And so yes, technology will move quickly and the way to engage will continue to expand the monetization opportunities. [00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. The big opportunities there, especially on the longer term, but I'm wondering on the short term though, I've heard a few people talking about just where things are with the market.[00:27:52] Dan Runcie: We're recording this now June, 2022, and the overall market may not be quite as fraught as it was say, let's say October, November 2021, but there's still deals that we're seeing happening, especially on the investing side. And I'm hearing rumors about this Pink Floyd catalog getting nearly half a billion dollars potentially, but what's your take right now on where things are and whether or not the current market conditions will impact anything that we've seen on the catalog investment side? [00:28:24] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think, listen, I think, you know, as interest rates rise and as relative value to other risk asset classes change, you may see people who are tourists, from an investor perspective, leave the space because they may say, okay, instead of investing in music, I'm going to invest in this other thing, which will decrease buyer demand and may put some weakness into the market.[00:28:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, so I think that being said, you know, people should expect that that may happen in the next few, next few years, or the next, you know, 12 to 18 months is probably a better time frame. But I would say that as it relates to the overall environment, whether it's inflation, supply chain, things of that nature, depending on how a business is positioned and the way that we buy we're positioned really well as a really great hedge to all of that.[00:29:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We don't really have the same exposure to that volatility. The price point, particularly in music from a consumer perspective is actually a really great value. And so we don't see a lot of churn expected. The way that consumers consume music is actually, you know, very accessible, even relative to video content, right?[00:29:37] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Because video content, you buy into platform, A, B, or C for the exclusive content they have on those respective platforms. Whereas in music, like you can pretty much listen to anything you want across all the platforms pretty homogenously. So that I think is, you know, proves to be a really great asset class, especially in this period of uncertainty, especially with the public equity markets being as volatile as it is.[00:30:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, people having, you know, a hard time getting a sense for where real value is with tech, valuations being as volatile as they are, because their indexed to the overall equity markets, public equity markets, et cetera, like things like what we do as illiquid, but also, you know, non-correlated for sure, but certainly also countercyclical really actually create a really great investment opportunity for people who are looking to reduce volatility or especially market volatility in their portfolio.[00:30:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So like, nothing's really changed for us in the last. You know, six to nine months since, for the portfolios that we own. Everything's continuing to come in as expected. We don't really see any, like, real top line impact. Whereas other businesses are seeing really top real top-line impact, they have wage inflation, they have supply chain issues.[00:30:49] Sherrese Clarke Soares: They've got obviously interest rates. They have overall market volatility. And so all that will create kind of near-term uncertainty for those companies and therefore for those company valuations, which we just don't have that same type of volatility. So we're actually really excited about, you know, the marketplace in the near term because we think we'll have a great, you know, we'll have, we have a lot of dry powder and, in having a lot of dry powder, we also are positioned in an opportunity where we have the opportunity to really kind of lean in. So, that's us [00:31:21] Dan Runcie: Right. In a lot of ways, that was the pitch, I think, when a lot of these deals were happening, people were attracted to the non-correlated assets and here it is, right? Like, we're seeing what's happening elsewhere. [00:31:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of times for entertainment, me being around the entertainment market from an investing and financing perspective for the better part of 20 years, you're always telling people how non-correlated it is, but usually you're kind of having this conversation and the market's all working together and in parallel. Well, what's been interesting about the last few years, starting with COVID is that you've been able to in real-time, see like, oh yeah, it really is non-correlated. Everything else is moving, you know, down into the left and we're moving up into the right because of the way that we consume, because you're basically, again, content in particular, but music even more special, is connected to the human condition.[00:32:13] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We all have a favorite song. You know, you're going to go to a birthday party or a wedding, you're going to hear music. You're going to go to a kid's performance at the end of the year, you're going to hear music. You know, we all have things that are attached to really important moments in our lives. And we use music and consume music more than we even realize.[00:32:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Sometimes we consume it very, you know, proactively, but a lot of times we can consume it very subconsciously. We go into a grocery store, we go to the gym, we step into our car, listen to the radio. Like, you're engaging with something that again, you know, is very pervasive. It's ephemeral, and it's everywhere, and it allows it to really kind of be resilient on a relative basis.[00:32:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think one of the differences too, between this timeframe, and let's say 2008, when there was the last recession, then the music industry itself, the business model and the state of the industry, just wasn't in the best place to begin with. Even beforehand, just given where things were with CD sales, and piracy, and digital downloads still, you know, and I guess you had, you still did have road tones and things like that at the time, but it wasn't where it is now, where yes, there has been a bit of a slide back with a lot of the stocks. However, music itself was in a strong place. So not only are you able to prove that out, there was an underlying business model here that continues to prove that people are going to listen to all of this music and consume all of this music, regardless of, you know, what may be happening outside.[00:33:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think, look, you know, at the end of the day, all businesses will go through business model adjustments. You know, the music business went through theirs. The film business just recently went through theirs. And I think it's coming on the other side of that, where that's why you're seeing all the major film studios have, you know, a something plus right.[00:33:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: A Disney Plus you know, a Discover Plus, or what have you, and starting to move towards having a streaming model as well. So all businesses, no matter what shape or size, no matter what industry media or not will go through disruptions on how the business is consumed and will have these periods of time.[00:34:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And I don't think the entertainment business is, you know, somehow isolated from that or immune to. But what you will see over the long duration is again, back to kind of like the underlying consumption. I'd say the other point to make is like, it's hard to look at stock prices in this current context to really kind of give you kind of a good point of view on volatility or, and, or valuation only because it's a reference point, but we also have to remember that most of the public markets is actually managed by quantitative balancing if you will, but not necessarily active and, and active and thoughtful and you know, investing strategies. A lot of it is very passively managed. And so as there is volatility that injects itself in the overall markets themselves, you see a lot of rebalancing of portfolios that actually just bring prices down that may have nothing to do with the underlying fundamentals of the asset class itself.[00:35:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's just something to kind of keep in mind if you're looking at the stocks of universal Warner or any of the other kind of music traded stocks as well. [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The other big piece with this, and you mentioned this earlier, is just the distinction between the tourists and the residents here, right? These types of things end up impacting much more of the tourists who maybe, they only had one foot in and it doesn't take much, you know, ripple for them to move, or shadow, adjust, or downscale what they were doing, where the people that were actually building. Are still in it. I mean, I'm still seeing startup deals happening.[00:35:36] Dan Runcie: I'm still seeing rounds being closed. And I think that's, it's likely a signal to the people that were more so, you know, dedicated. And they're also just showed with the investment market, saw them as you know, from an opportunity perspective. So I, I think that's a, like you mentioned earlier, that's a big piece of this, too.[00:35:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's what's going to differentiate us. Like, you know, our goal for HarbourView is to build an institution not dissimilar to a lot of people who I admire in the private equity space. And you know, there's been a lot of great work that's been done over the last 35, 40 years building kind of private equity, asset management businesses.[00:36:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we're hopeful to build kind of the next generation of that, and really build a scale of industrialized force in the entertainment and media space from a sector perspective. And so as we think about that, we really think about who and what we want to be and being residents of the space is a big piece of that because that's where we can identify places where we can really dig in and support high quality management teams that we really like and want to engage with.[00:36:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's where we can really dig in support, really having a long term view over owning these assets and really find ways to identify value when other investors, again, kind of have a relative value in their mind and have moved on to the next greatest or the next hottest thing. We want to really be focused on really kind of you know, building, obviously, we have to deliver great returns. And the only way that we can scale to being an industrialized force is having top-quartile returns. So we aim for that just as much as anybody else, but we think that there's a really great way of doing that as being a part of the ecosystem, you know, fully entrenched in the world versus just being there to be opportunistic.[00:37:13] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, shifting gears a little bit. One thing that I know is near and dear to both of us as Jamaicans, we got to talk about what the opportunities in reggae and ska look like. [00:37:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen. I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge fan. Like, people often ask me, I often get the question in these interviews. Like, what are you listening to? And if I'm really honest, you know, the car ride is the Bob Marley radio station. Every day, my kids are constantly like, why do we always have to listen to Bob Marley? And then every morning the kids get up to Here Comes the Band and Machel Montano, that's the way to kind start our high-energy day.[00:37:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we're big fans and believers. And to the extent that there's opportunities out there to acquire, we're happy, happy, happy to do it. You know, one thing for about us as a firm is we try not to be a pursuer. Like, if somebody's open to selling, we want to have every opportunity to, to take a look and to compete and to compete on the merits and put our best foot forward.[00:38:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But we are not interested in making anybody feel like we're after just being vultures or after their work. But I say all that to say like, we don't own a lot of reggae and ska or soca today. But if anybody who is of those audiences is listening and is excited to sell, we are happy, happy, happy participants and active participants in that market, but we're never going to, you know, go and try to, you know, force people to, to give up rights or sell rights that, that they may not be ready to.[00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like it's only a matter of time before we see one of those deals or, or dance hall too. I feel like we're going to see it soon enough. [00:38:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Exactly. [00:38:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we let you go, I do want to talk a bit about mentorship and apprenticeship 'cause I know that's something you've talked about in past interviews as well and just how important it is specifically in private equity and in finance and I want to hear how that's been really helpful for you and your career, and then extending that to the next generation. [00:39:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So we're big believers in that. We're taking interns this summer, I believe one from Howard and one from HBS. So we're big believers in that. We're a small firm, but we're still having an intern class, which, you know, I think speaks to sort of this idea of giving people an opportunity to just come learn.[00:39:29] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And us to learn from them and what they can bring to the table. So, yes, it is absolutely 100%. And in an apprenticeship business, I've learned so much from so many really great people, inclusive of all the people that I've worked with over the years at Morgan Stanley. You know, tons, tons of people I could give you lots, a whole long laundry list of names of people there, or even all my new partners at Apollo have been just great in, you know, rolling up their sleeves and thinking about things with me as we've been, you know, looking at, you know, various opportunities.[00:40:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's been really great. I think one of the things that we're very focused on as well is really trying to be thoughtful about who we want to be as investors and how we want to, and how we think and we derive our own POV. So we, we try to basically take all the things that we want to take from those experiences, learning how to obviously, you know, do all the diligence and all that stuff are things that I've learned coming up, but having this strong conviction around what we care about, thematically, who we want to be as an investor, how we want to be seen as an investor, how we want to partner with management teams, I think has been things that we've sort of curated based on the experiences that we've had, but mentorship and apprenticeship has been huge part of my career and will never not be.[00:40:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I mean, I, I have mentors today, like even to negotiate my deal that I negotiated with Apollo, I had great people like the great Stu Bergen, who's a good friend of mine, who was a senior executive at Warner music, who really helped me to think through that. Or Robert Smith who's obviously the CEO and founder of Vista Equity Partners, or Damien Dwin who, as a long-time friend of mine, has started multiple platforms have really been people who have been in my ear on like, okay, you could do this.[00:41:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: This is how you negotiate that. This is the value that you bring, make sure you stand firm or this or that. And it's been just really great to always have those people around, but it's also really empowering to also, you know, set a vision for what it is and who it is that we want the firm to be, and what it is we want our investing style to be, and what it is we want to be to the marketplace.[00:41:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So, so it's been great. I've been very fortunate over the years to basically have exposure to people who have built great businesses, who have seen lots of things, seen lots of different points of adversity, but also made way, made time to pour back into me. And so we think it's responsible for us to pour back into others too. So we're very, very, very focused on that. [00:41:53] Dan Runcie: Well said. And yeah, I think especially people hearing that you're still reaching out to people to help close the big deals that you have given everything that you've accomplished is just a reminder that yes, like this doesn't stop. Everyone that you see is learning. You know, this is a constant thing for sure. [00:42:09] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, 100%, 100%[00:42:11] Dan Runcie: Well, Sherrese. This is great. Thank you so much. I think people are going to definitely feel like they'll get a closer lens as to how these deals go down and just a lot of the thought behind it, but I'm sure people will also be listening and waiting for the headlines to see the next deals to drop as well.[00:42:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes. Yes. We'll be coming to a neighborhood, neighborhood near you soon. [00:42:34] Dan Runcie: And if people do want to keep track, where can they follow HarbourView or where can they do that? [00:42:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Follow HarbourView on LinkedIn, on Instagram also, and then, you know, check out our website. Yeah. [00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Sherrese, thanks again.[00:42:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Thank you so much. So great to see you. Take care. [00:42:51] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

After a massive week inside the music industry, I had to bring Wall Street Journal music and entertainment reporter Neil Shah onto Trapital for an emergence podcast on Drake’s surprise “Honestly, Nevermind” album drop and Beyonce’s own announcement for her first album in six years, “Resistance.”For Drake, he once again switched it up — not only his hairstyle (cornrows this time), but his musical style. Drake is known to experiment with different sounds and flows, but “Honestly, Nevermind” is a complete 180-degree turn for hip-hop’s biggest star. It’s a dance album and actual rapping from Drake is mostly absent, which not surprisingly, has led to a mostly lukewarm response. Drake’s musical output has always been high, but “Honestly, Nevermind” ironically comes shortly after signing a new $400m deal with Universal Music Group. With a fresh contract and the economics of the streaming industry as a whole, Drake is incentivized for consistent music rather than “classics.” And whether fans and critics “catch up” to Drake’s new sound or not, he’s getting paid big-time from new releases either way. And then there’s Beyonce. Details about her next album are slim besides its drop date, July 29. Announcing an album in advance runs contrary to her last release, “Lemonade”, which was surprise dropped in 2016 — a completely different era in streaming when exclusives were still a thing (Lemonade was on TIDAL only). Even for a star the size of Beyonce, one has to wonder what kind of pull she has in today’s streaming era.Neil and I covered all things Drake and Beyonce albums in this episode of Trapital. Here’s all our talking points:[2:31] First Reaction To Drake’s Surprise Album Announcement[7:12] Drake’s First Album Post-UMG $400 Million Deal[10:56] Significance Of Drake’s Pivot To Dance Music[13:25] Is Drake’s Popularity Losing Steam?[19:20] Did Beyonce’s Album Announcement Affect Drake’s Release?[23:06] Music Industry’s Evolution Since Beyonce’s Previous Album Drop[30:21] Will Beyonce’s Renaissance Album Be A Multi-Release?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

This week, we’re doing something a little different and sharing a fantastic episode from our friends over at the Broken Record podcast. On Broken Record, acclaimed producer Rick Rubin, bestselling author Malcom Gladwell, and former New York Times editor Bruce Headlam talk with the musicians you love about their lives, inspiration, and craft. Today, we’ll hear Rick’s conversation with one of the most innovative artists in music, Missy Elliot. Hope you enjoy! We’ll be back next week with a new episode of Trapital.Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.