Music NFTs are all the rage as of late. Entering the mix is Young M.A, who dropped a capsule on April 19. But in true Young M.A fashion, she took a different approach to her first-ever NFT project.For one, each NFT is only $20, making it widely accessible to her diehard fanbase. That’s a departure from most artists-focused NFTs that are on the pricier side due to their limitedness. In total, Young M.A dropped five NFT collections with 250 editions in each — for a total of 1,250. Each of the five collections represents key moments in Young M.A’s career. From first going viral with her Brooklyn Chiraq freestyle to the smashing success of “OOOUUU” and other highlights. Moreover, the capsule is exclusive to new NFT marketplace Serenade. The platform prides itself on being eco-friendly in an industry widely criticized for its energy consumption. The NFT collection is just one way Young M.A is staying connected to her fans these days. She’s also on tour and has continued to invest in non-music products like her adult toy line. Here’s everything we covered in this episode:[0:00] Seeing where things go[2:45] Purpose Behind Young M.A’s NFT Drop[9:29] Surprising Price Point For Young M.A’s NFT Capsule[10:14] Young M.A Has Hesitations About The Drop (Honest Talk) [12:32] Prioritizing Long-Term Impact With Business Ventures[12:55] Young M.A’s Relationship With Fame[15:37] How Young M.A Approaches Non-Music Business Ventures[20:10] Partnering With Serenade For The NFT Drop[23:22] Keeping Up With Web 3.0 & Music Industry [28:00] Young M.A Understands Her Place In The IndustryListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Young M.A, @youngma, serenade.co/@youngma Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Transcript________________Young M.A  00:00When it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it goes as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks. Dan Runcie  00:31Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today's guest is Young M.A. You may know her for her hits like BROOKLYN (Chiraq), OOOUUU, and plenty others that helped her go six times platinum. I knew this was going to be a good interview because, the moment that I logged on to the chat, Young M.A was already in there. And her first words were "took you long enough." And that's what I knew that we're in for a good one. Young M.A came on the Trapital podcast because she just had an NF T drop for her latest single Aye Day Pay Day. And she did it as a series of stories throughout her career. And she launched her NFTs different than most artists do. As I've written and talked about on this podcast, people have looked at NFTs as a way to monetize and make a lot of money from being able to sell high-end products as collectibles. But Young M.A is going about in a different way. She only has 250 drops for each of the five NFTs in this collection. And she's only selling them for $20. That's it. So we talked about the decision, how she's approached this, and why she made the decision that she has. And I think a lot of this ties into her mentality. As an artist, Young M.A is one of the more strong proponents of being an independent artist and what that means. And we talked about how this relates to how she looks at record labels and a lot of the deals that she's turned down. And we also talked about some of      Young M.A's investments too. She's invested in a bunch of different areas. So we talked about that. We also talked about some of the other trends happening in this music industry, how she keeps up with everything, how her team is structured, and a whole lot more. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Young M.A. All right, today, we're joined by the one and only Young M.A, who has a big drop for us today. She is launching an NFT. And I'm excited and I want to hear more. So break it down. Why was now the time for you to make this drop happen?Young M.A  02:45I see. You know, I'm the same person. I don't, I don't talk all that extra “Aaah.”  I keep it real. The big one since A1.  You know what I mean? I honestly didn't know too much about it, you know what I mean? I used to see it every now and then. And I didn't understand what it was because I'm the type of person like, like, if it don't make sense to me at the moment of me seeing it, I'm just not going to pay attention. I don't see interest into things that everybody else see interesting, too, you know what I mean? So that was literally the case. But I didn't see it casually and then once my team brought it to my attention, it was like, oh, okay, I know what you're talking about, you know what I mean? Like, I've seen, so I'm guessing this is like the new way of things, new wave of things, or whatever. So focusing my attention, you know, just basically gave me the intellect of it, the background of it, detail and everything like that. Somehow, Okay, okay, no, still not understanding it too much. But you know, kind of intrigued into it. And they kind of like broke it down. So I was like, Yo, give me a little more like pinpoint, because like, I do want to understand this situation, because it'd be something that's going to be longevity, and something's that's gonna help, you know, long term future-wise. And it's like, one of the new way that's coming in, you know, why not, you know, at least, you know, check it out. So we talked more about it, had a meeting, and, and we came up with kind of like I did. So once they broke down the ideas to me of like, what's, like, the meaning of it. And also like, what I would do if I do it. And then it become a more of understanding that was like, Okay, now I can go, you know what I mean? It's not just like, like anything we ever did before. Like, it's not like, it's, like, we did but like more digital, you know what I mean? It's like what we did but digital, in a different sense. So I'm like, okay, I get it now. So once I got that understanding, there's like, I got more intrigued, and I was like, let's go. You know, I'm the type of person, like, I'd take risks. I don't believe in like, No, I gotta, I gotta be the see it to believe it type person, like, I got to see. You know, even if I got to take that risk. I had taken risk all my life, so now I was like, I want to take this risk of, a new risk of taking risk. Let's take this risk. So we got to to it on, whatever the case, got involved with a team or whatever. And we came to a point where it was like, alright, if I'm going to do this, you already know my vibe. Not going to do it on nobody else's terms and circumstances and shit like that. Like, I know how it moves. So me understanding that this is how it goes about, let's go into a route where it's going to make, make sense for me. That's always been my, my way of grinding since I came up. Anything that I've ever done always went in a sense of how I had to do, so on and, you know, still be independent, of course. So we came up with this, all my team came up with this plan of like just creating like a timeline of, like, when I first started. Literally from the ground up, like... I wouldn't say the ground up because literally I started from the ground like, like, probably like 19 years old. For like far as like when social media and stuff like that really came into play as far as music, we wanted to start from there and we started from like my first freestyling, like, went viral, BROOKLYN (Chiraq Freestyle), you know what I mean?  When Facebook was like one of the hottest things ever, at the time, like Instagram was still hot. Cool. Instagram was hot but like, Facebook was one of the places where you want to go viral before you went viral on Instagram. Before... I came from them. I mean, SoundCloud, before there was SoundCloud rappers, I was on SoundCloud, you know what I mean? So like, we really wanted to bring that world into, like, just my supporters and my fan base. So it's really not too much about trying to sell this. It's more so about trying to give back to my supporters. In a way now that I understand that NF T is a way of them making money by just putting one investment into me, after like years of investment you will put into me, this is your way of making money, just like that? Come on, man. You know, I mean, like of course, I'm gonna jump into that. But of course, I still need to know more detail into it or whatever the case. So as time goes on, we come up with the details, we like, let's pinpoint the biggest times on your career. Chiraq Freestyle go viral. Boom. Years later, everybody knows, a lot of being on all these like big radio stations. Hot 97. after that and we went viral. On this... She started doing shows in Connecticut and Tri-state areas. You know what I mean? Like, I'm starting to do these type of things. Now my come up is coming up. Now OOOUUU come out, boom, because they like we need a club record. Boom, come with them. Exactly. I gotcha, you know what I mean? Like boom, OOOUUU, come out. Now that's became the biggest break now. Now, I'm crossing other into the industry. Another, you know, milestone in my career. We go from that, boom. And now we go into Petty Wap. It is a lot. So like, that's basically the timeline. Like there's so much that I did in between each time that could really count. But it's like, when you pinpoint, like, literally, like, the bowstones of everything. So like, that's what the NFT is really about, it was creating and like, like, you know, the longevity and what could create from each individual situation that you might not never know, that might develop as you go, you know what I mean? So that's what I feel like my NFT should be about. I don't know what everybody else is doing and shit about. Like, I heard about the research, I heard about, you know, people's, like, unreleased stuff. Of course, like I do unreleased music, or unreleased merch or unreleased things and shit like that. Of course, you get the exclusive. But to me, like, my NFTs, they have to, like gravitate to something close to me. It made my supporters understand that it's still me. It's not about just, yeah, having new stuff that nobody got. No, it's still connecting with you all. At the end of the day, I look at this. I don't know, I don't look at this for money. Like, I don't know, I don't know where people mine that or whatever. As humans, whatever the case, and they only be... But like me, as a artists. I always had this mindset. I treat my supporters as my family, for, like, this my way of, like, giving back. It's like me getting a platinum plaque. And seeing that I went platinum again. Like just, like it just, like I feel so good about just having that platinum plaque as another accomplishment. There's no one that I'm doing what I'm doing. So like for them to have something valuable, 250 out of millions, billions, and trillions of people in this world. You got that? Like, that's what matters to me. I don't know about that money stuff, bro. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to say.Dan Runcie  08:51Yeah. Was it tough to limit the amount because it's only 250 people for each of the drops, and you got a lot of...Young M.A  08:52Exactly. Dan Runcie  08:54...Young M.A fans out there. Was it tough to limit it?Young M.A  08:59Yeah, that's basically the case. Like, I'm still trying to figure it out. Like once it dropped and I see like how things go about, I just want to see the reaction. Like, I'm not even looking into like, like, I know the money aspects of things. And if you want to talk money, but, like, my benefit from it is more so like seeing what they value from it, you know what I mean? Like...Dan Runcie  09:20Yeah, let's talk the money piece of it first, just to get that out of the way. So you got 250 of volume. And of course, the goal is to sell out, how much are they? And are they different prices for each of the five different ones? Young M.A  09:29No, they're $20. Dan Runcie  09:31And see that's important because I think most people that do drops like this, if you only have a limited amount, they think it's going to be thousands of dollars, right? But you're like, so essentially it's like a first come first whoever gets it first, right? Young M.A  09:42Yeah, $20, $20. I feel like, you know, like my supporters.  If you could buy merch, I mean my merch is more $20, oh there you go. If my merch is, like, more than $20, or you could buy a ticket to come see me, my whole package, meet and greets, all that, it should be like a bucket of change. If you can spend $20 just have an NFT of me and make money off it, like, I don't know what to say, you know, like, I'm not a...  I just feel like, you know, like, we take risks, we take risks.Dan Runcie  10:08Do you feel like this was a big risk for you though? Because I feel like it's a slam dunk. I mean, you know that you got the fans that are going to want it. Young M.A  10:14Yeah, I mean, I don't look at it like a slam dunk, though. I don't know why. And that's just me being honest. I don't know why, like, I don't know, if it's just not in my heart to like, I don't really look at money value. I don't know. There's just something, I don't know. It's just something in my heart that just never been that person. Like, of course, I'm going to make money. Yes, I had to make money to survive. But my intent into going into things be more deeper than people ever think. Like, I really think deeper into things, like I have to understand. Because if I don't understand something 100%, like, what this NFT, I'm gonna keep it G. I don't know 100% about it. I do know enough. But I don't know 100%. And when I don't know, 100%+, about something. I'm not going to never put my trust into it. 100%. I'm going put my trust into how much I understand. So my trust is how much I understand per say, right? You know what I mean? And I just want to see how my supporters feel and what's gonna make them happy. If it ain't making them happy, I want to do it. And that's real, bro.Dan Runcie  11:13Oh, yeah. And I think the good thing with it, too, you have other exclusive perks lined up. If someone collects all five of them, then you invite them to certain things, and you know fans are always going to appreciate that. And I feel like this also taps into how you run your game in the industry from since you've been in this, you know, because you were always more about longevity. You were always more about the money. That is how you approach any deal that came through or you weren't trying to approach it with a bag. It wasn't about the bag, it had to be more than that.Young M.A  11:42Yeah, I had to always be more. I've been sitting in so many record labels... I fell asleep in one, I ain't going to say which label. I'm not going to say which one. But I literally lay my head on the table because they just said everything everybody else said and I don't have none of these labels. I don't. I just felt like it just wasn't, it wasn't in my league. You know what I mean? So I didn't want to tap into, some certain people I didn't want to sign to. I just felt like independent was my best move, because I just understood me. Like it was just more so, like. the industry wasn't about money to me. It wasn't about that. It was more so about understanding me as an artist, and how I express myself, and who I am. You all don't know me. You all don't know. You don't know. So you all can't tell me, which I can do for me. All you have to tell me what it is I can do for y'all that will do for me. But it won't do for me. Dan Runcie  12:31Right.Young M.A  12:32You know what I'm saying? So like, I'd rather move slow-paced than fast-paced. Just to get a quick dollar? No, like, like, I love the position I'm it. Like, I don't like that fast life. I don't even like the fame. I don't. I just love my supporters. I love when I go on stage. I love when I got to handle my business, when I got to handle my business. You know what I mean? And just like, just enjoying life, as long as my family's taken care of. That's all I care about, like all that fast-paced stuff and all that stuff like that. Like, I don't need it. It's fun when it's fun, like I can have those moments. I can go on a boat. I'm going on a yacht. I can drive a fast car. I can drive them... And it's just like, Okay, now like, I'm going to... I go to club, I can go...Dan Runcie  13:11Let's talk about relationship with fame. Because I feel like that's an interesting point, right? Like you would have the moment after, what is, Chiraq Freestyle or even after OOOUUU when things blew up. Now you're a few years past that. Do you feel like, the way things are right now, you're in a pretty good spot where, you know, I feel like the level of fame I have is in line with where I am comfortable, or do you still feel like no, no, I wish I was less famous than this.Young M.A  13:37No, actually, I think I'm in a comfortable spot. Because even when sometimes, like now, like I noticed, like, of course, I get bored. You know, sometimes you get bored. You know, that's just normal human being stuff. But you'll get bored. So you want to go out. And then sometimes I'll go out. And they'd be like, like, this is so normal. Like, I just be seeing guys. It's just everybody just acting... Like, man, been there, done that. And it's just like, so, it's just so common. It's like sometimes, like it'd be certain moments that feel good. It's like, this is the time to celebrate, like it's like accomplishment to me now more so than just going out for fun, like random and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Now it was more so like if we go out we have a good time, it's because we just, we just, you know, dropped the check or something. You know what I mean? Are we just invested in something, you know, we just got this or we got that. Like that celebration to me more is now more of a celebration and more fun to me now. All of just like randomly going out stuff to me is like. it's cool, but it's like, it's not as exciting. And I'm going to say that and that's just me being honest. Like, I can say it's me getting older but I can just say it's really me just probably, it's just, something that I always had in me. Like, even when I used to, like go out when the phase first happened, with OOOUUU and all that. It was fun, but I still wasn't like dramatic about it. Like I was never like that, Oh yeah, I'm happy to be in clubs, like, it was just like enjoying the moment I guess. Like, it was like one of the... Cool, cool, but I still wasn't like extra, like, I never got in trouble. I never went, you know what I mean? I never went crazy. You know, I still kept my composure even when having that much success and fame at the very moment. So like, even now that I've been there, done that, it's like, I'd be looking around at people and I'll just be like, damn, I understand. But like, to me, like, it's like, I can leave right now and be okay. You know? And that's where my mind and like, I'm automatically thinking like, damn, so tomorrow, I need to figure out, like, what next business move... And that's really when my mind be like, all day running like that. And that's just really how I be like.Dan Runcie  15:37Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like with you especially, you mentioned the investment piece. What does that piece of your business look like? What are some of the investment opportunities you've looked at? And how do you evaluate them?Young M.A  15:38Well, I can't tell you too much. So I'm going to shhh on that. But what I am, into I'm not going to tell you what I'm...Dan Runcie  15:55You're going to give us something public though?Young M.A  15:57So right now I got the, of course, the NFT and then I got the sex toy line that a lot of people, I mean, they aware of it but like, you know, just to get more aware in, you know, when we have these interviews. I have a sex toy line being that people want to talk about my strap, like I use things to my advantage. That just makes sense. Like, you got to talk about me, you're going to walk about me, you know what I mean? So like, I got the sex toy line that I originally created in collab with Doc Johnson, which is a big sex company located, like, based in LA, or whatever the case and, like, they just known, like, everywhere, like, they're literally like a big ass company. And we had like a meeting, went probably like three years ago. And we locked out with them and I came up with this own, my own sex toy line called Play Nyce, called Play Nyce. N-Y-C, so N-Y-C-E, so that's Play Nyce with a Y. That's why... With a Y. I just placed everything in one and NYC. I always do that. Like, even with my chains like this is Young M.A but it looked like the Loki symbol. You know, I always put anything when it comes to, like, where I'm from, what I'm based on, everything, just as long as it what makes sense. But like, yeah, we came up with that. So like, it's like a whole starter kit of sex toys and like, you know, strap-ons, and stuff like that. And even cleaning your strap-ons or whatever. So when they can't, you know, get pleased by whoever they want to get pleased by, they please they self. And then I also got the vibrators as well, because a lot of women are using vibrators now, and that's also by Play Nyce but it's called Power Play. Because there's a lot of power and it plays with that... And that's just, you know what I'm saying? And you know, I got a lot of, like, lot of positive comments back from that Power Play right there. And a lot of women use vibrators. And it's, like, so many different styles, they've been telling me about. So I've been doing my research and trying to get to it. So like, I just started off with that. So I'm gonna get more in tune with that, because that's literally like, a way for women, and I love women. So that's always going to work for me. So I'm definitely locking in with that, like, continuously. So that's just been in the works on that. So my website is shopyoungma. Everything is on shopyoungma.com. And then I got the PSD collaboration as well with my boxers. So we got like different, like, styles of boxers. like women's booty short-type boxers, and they got the men's boxers. Well, briefs, boxer briefs, like locked and tight. And then they got the women's sports bras. We actually got like all my designs and stuff like that. So we've been locked in with PTSD so make sure you all check that out as well. So it's basically underwear. And also Nyak. Nyak is my liquor brand that I've been associated with. They also had their own company, but they brought me a part of it with my own VSOP bottle. So I get my benefits from my actual own bottle which is all red. This is brown, is a brown label, is called Nyak, N-Y-A-K, you know what I mean? And mine's an all-red bottle, same thing, Nyak. But my actual, like, logo was on the bottle so you know it's mine, it's all red. And so I've been like, you know what I mean, doing little entrepreneur stuff, and then we got more stuff too, but you know, I'm just going keep quiet and not tell you.Dan Runcie  19:02No, I hear that. Well, I appreciate you sharing those though. And the sex toys and the adult toys in general. I feel like that lines up with some of the stuff you've done before. I know you've directed adult films before so I feel like you've been in this space.Young M.A  19:16Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And that's why it was perfect to actually release that because it wasn't coming from left field, you know what I mean, when that first came out. It was like a lot of people was like oh... Like, Young M.A on porn? So that literally became like a token discussion or whatever, so then it was like perfect timing because it's like, so now you're all talking about this, I see you're always talking about my strap, I was like, let's bridge the gap. There you go. So now I'm making money from you all. Hello. From not even from just y'all, from the people that... You know what I mean, like girl, or a man, I don't even care. It don't matter.Dan Runcie  19:51Yeah, so I feel like that lines up, too, and even back to the first piece. I know you've got the partnership here with Serenade for the NFT drop itself and... what does that relationship like? And I guess, first, what was it that made you want to partner with them on this? And then what does the relationship look like with them moving forward?Young M.A  20:10I ain't going to lie... I believe they didn't know too much about, you know what I mean? Like, I just know, once, you know, I really got the confirmation that they was, you know, more so equal, friendly, equal, friendly more than anything, and that's a big plus, in itself. Why do we want to establish more of a relationship with them? You know what I mean, after this NFT drop, and that's what kind of what we've been planning. You know what I mean? Like, I'm more so like an observant person, like, once I meet you, I understand. He was like, okay, cool. So once I met them, and it's like, okay, you know what I mean, we can move forward. If things don't go right then things don't go, right. That's just in the business. And so you know, what I mean, I'm not giving nobody the highest benefits of anything, you know, I'm not saying this person is so, so good. No, but they definitely good people to work with. And it's different discussions, different people. And I decided, you known what I mean, just to see where it go. Like we said, we'll take risks in life, see where it goes, I don't think they bad people. We're going to see where it goes. I'm still learning about this NFT more and more, and I just want to see where it goes. And that's was just pretty much that, you know what I mean? Too much to go into detail but I appreciate them for even giving me the opportunity. You know what I mean? They definitely looked out a lot, you know what I mean? a lot. And I could tell they have a lot of hustle and motivation to put forward into my NFT. So that's one of the reasons to as to why we work with them. Because I really feel like intuition with certain people and just having to understand, like, when it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it go as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks. Dan Runcie  21:52Yeah, it makes me think of two things. One, with Serenade, their eco-friendly pitch stuck out to me, too, just because a lot of people don't talk about how much energy is burned when people are either making NFTs or doing things related to gas fees, or any of this stuff like, it's a lot. Well, I'm glad that they're pushing that piece of it. And then, two, what I like about this for you, as well, is I've seen a lot of these times where new platforms or newer platforms will pitch themselves to a popular artist that has a fan base and then if they're able to grow with it, then that obviously attracts more and more artists, and then the artist gets a bit of that influence sort of help push this and they become, in many ways, one of the faces to push that brand through, especially if things continue to grow.Young M.A  22:36Right. Exactly. So like it's just understandable. Like, some, some, some people, you know, you got to get it like, that's why I said, like, I'm learning more about this, this, this, this whole company, this whole NFT thing, this whole new dispersion of just this new, new elevation of life, you know, and the evolution of life. And that's what I'm getting at. And I just want people to just... I want people to put the same kind of risk into and just had that understanding and learn more because like it's going... no matter what we do. We know we want to be so old school as much as possible. We're like, you know, you can still hold on to that like, Oh, no to the... But like, you still got to make sure you had...Dan Runcie  23:15Right. How do you keep up with all of it? I mean, every week, I feel like there's something new happening with Web 3.0 or that Metaverse.Young M.A  23:22Right, me too. I feel like... I feel like damn, wait, what's this right here? Like, I ain't going to lie, like, I ain't going to lie. It is hard to keep up with. I mean, I'm getting it, you know. I feel like I don't got to force it, too? You know, I don't always feel like I have to force it. Like, I'm the type of person, I will catch up with yo ass. I'm not running around, laps around, you know what I mean? Like, if you're already ahead, I'm like, alright, alright. I'm observing. I'm like that turtle, you know what I mean? Chasing the rabbit? Dan Runcie  23:50Yep. Yep. Young M.A  23:51You know, I mean, yeah, so...Dan Runcie  23:53Yeah, that's the thing. We're still in the early days with this, too. I think that's what people forget, I get it. Everyone wants to jump at the newest thing of the opportunity that's there. But we're still figuring a lot out about how so much of this is gonna shake out. And I feel like the way you're doing it is right. It's not like you're saying, No, I don't fully understand. But alright, if I get this enough to at least test this out, no different than a startup, just put it at initial product. Let's see how this works. All right. And we learned and then we continue to tweak.Young M.A  24:22Exactly, you know what I mean? You just learn as you go. That's how I look at life, you learn as you go. I mean, some things may not work for you, something will. You never know. Like, even if it don't, it may be something that makes you do something that changed something. You know what I mean? You might retreat something. You don't know where this is going to lead you. Everybody could be entrepreneurs. Anybody could just be what they could be, you know what I mean?  And that's just way of...Dan Runcie  24:44Yeah, for sure. Young M.A  24:45Yeah.Dan Runcie  24:45If anything, now, there's probably getting even more, with people reaching out about different opportunities. It's like you're picking your spots, right? And kind of with how you structured your career, I bet that you say no a lot, even if it's outside of the record labels or anyone else, just because there's only so much that you want to focus on. And there's only so much that you can do. So if you're saying yes to something that means it's definitely crossed at some level where it's like, no, this is worth our time. And we think that this is worth the potential benefit of what it could do for our fans and for us.Young M.A  25:17Yeah, me and my team, we family. You know what I mean? They consider me like a boss, but I don't consider that. I just consider us all, you know, just everybody working in this spots, in place, of course, I'm the yay or the nay... I mean, if I want to do it, I won't do it. If I want to do it, I'm going to do it. And there's that. But other than that, like that's what I said, I don't, I don't need a hundred people... As long as I got the right people and the right positions. That's all. That's all about relationships, man. It's all about relationships, whatever relationship you decide to, you know, what I mean, you keep or whatever you feel like is right for you, go about that. Other than that, like, I always know, like, I will avoid certain things. People look at something like glamor... and think that's just it all the time because they want to keep a certain relationship. But like, I don't think nothing's wrong with it. Don't get me wrong, but like, I don't have the kiss nobody else. Like, it ain't that I don't want to I'm not just a mean person, just like, I still always stand like firm to my ground. Like, I always stand firm to like, certain things, I believe in certain things on this day. When I see through somebody and I see bullshit, I will literally like just leave you alone, like there's no talking about that. And I don't have to go against you. I don't have to be mad, or will be angry. I got to be aggressive? No, Just like... And we go about our business. And it's just about that, you know what I mean? Like, I see when one person act towards this person this certain way and this person acts towards this person a certain way. I see those type of vibes. And when I see those type of vibes, I just don't look at you genuinely. You know what I mean? So, I know when somebody... And that's how I move with you, I move with you the same way you're probably moving. And that's just that, you know I mean? That's how I just, you know what I mean, like, I just understand this game and all that that's why I don't really play too much part into things like, I got a lot of people associated with in this industry that a lot of friends and then they got people that... but that's just a game. And I understood that a long time ago.Dan Runcie  27:02Right. And I feel like with how you’ve built this, what it ties back to you for me is you have a very clear understanding of who you are and what you want out of this game. And because of that, it helps you make better decisions and helps you not have that fear of missing out that other people do and you can be like No, like we're focused on what we're doing. And I think that's what hurts so many artists because so many artists get frustrated that they're not doing what that 1% of people are doing, they're not doing that thing and I think that mentality can all always just set you up for not feeling fulfilled or not feeling like you're doing enough. But you were able to have a pretty even perspective with that. Do you feel like you always had that? Or do you feel like that's something that you just became better with navigating over your career?Young M.A  27:48No, I always had that. Because if I didn't, I would have been so.Dan Runcie  27:51Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing is, though, you did say that there were times where you did go back and forth and you at least considered whether you should or not, right?Young M.A  28:00No, I had meeting yes, I have meetings of course. I had meetings. I wasn't, it wasn't that I wasn't I never going to give nobody a chance. I wasn't like... that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not against it. I'm not against it. I'm never against nothing. I've never against nothing. It's just like, I give things the actual opportunity. I'm a type of person, like, if I know for sure, for sure that it is not right, then, of course, it's clear. I already know. Because I know, because I know. But other than that, if I don't know, and I'm like, alright, let me just, at least, even if I have an intuition, I'm going to still go try. And if I'm right, then I'm right. If I'm wrong then damn, you know what I mean? Change my mind, you know, and I go from there. Like, that's just how I look at it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not against nothing. I'm never against nothing. It's just more so like, I want nobody to feel like I'm like, against, like, what people will do or how they do it, or... Anybody can do how they want to do what they want to do when they want to do. Me, I'm just the type of person where I observe, you know what I mean? I go about it how I go about it. I want nobody to feel like I'm like, this person where I'm just happy-go-lucky, then. You know what I mean? You feel like, oh, yeah, we got to have it. Because that's how people come into it. Like these little young boys, young kids. They're so happy to have opportunity but they don't read between the lines, you know what I mean? And that's what it means. And I mean, always you have a lawyer and always you had somebody, a guardian beside you, you know, always you have somebody to understand, or you might have been people, enough people might just be really just trying to take advantage of you the whole time. You know what I mean? So like, I just don't trust nothing. Even if next to me, you won't don't got to be across the table. You could be next to me and I still don't... So like, that's just how I've always have moved, like, I always move like make sure I'll protect me. You know what I mean? Like, you can say you're for me. I will hear that. But I mean, I got to believe, right?Dan Runcie  29:46No, that's real. That's not real. And I mean, I appreciate you for sharing the insights here. I feel like a lot of people have looked up to you and appreciated how you run your career and I feel like this drop, this NFT job specifically, it's just that next evolution that ties back to everything you've been doing, so before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or you want to let the Trapital audience to know about?Young M.A  30:06Yeah, just know we're going on tour, man. April 23. We're in VA, Portsmouth, VA. . Portsmouth Virginia. It's at the 420ish, it's called the 420ish Festival. Make sure you have... that's where you start. And then I think we're in Cincinnati after that. 26 and then 27, I think the tour will be in Mesa, so we'll be able to on tour for a month. Off The Yak tour. Yeah, so that's pretty much, NFT about to drop. New music be here soon, I can't, I don't really know if we should. I'm going throw that in the air real quick...Dan Runcie  30:37Yeah. Because I was gonna say I thought you got a song lined up with the NFT drop, right?Young M.A  30:39Oh, yeah. Aye Day Pay Day. Dan Runcie  30:40Yeah.Young M.A  30:40Aye Day Pay Day. That's right, Aye Day Pay Day, y'all. Aye Day Pay Day.Dan Runcie  30:46I know, I was gonna say we can't let the interview cut if you don't mention the song. But Young M.A, this is great. I appreciate you coming on.Young M.A  30:52Thank you both. I appreciate it you guys.Dan Runcie  30:56If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

In less than three years, the Fanbase social content app has raised six million dollars (without traditional venture capital) and is inching toward the one-million user mark. How did co-founder Issac Hayes III take the app from nothing all the way to this? If you ask him, his life spent in the cut-throat music industry gave him the inspiration AND business chops to thrive within the tech space. As the son of legendary R&B artist Isaac Hayes, he was made well aware from the get-go of the exploitative practices by record labels toward musicians. Isaac would go on to notice similar exploitation with social media giants and their users, who were creating content and driving attention, but reaping little of the billions of dollars in revenues being reported by the same corporations.Fanbase is changing those optics. On the app, users can post content — written, photo, video, audio chat, and live stream — for a subscription fee. As Isaac sees it, “monetization for every user is the wave of the future.” For a full glimpse of how Isaac is building Fanbase into a disruptive social media force, you’ll want to tune into our interview. Here’s what we covered in the episode:[4:10] Fanbase Raised $6 Million From Crowdfunding — Not Venture Capital[6:34] The Most Important Investors Of Fanbase [8:10] Making Investing More Accessible[10:30] How Fanbase Is Acquiring New Customers[11:59] Fanbase’s Biggest Business Advantage (Not What You Think)[14:13] “Monetization For Every User Is The Wave Of The Future”[16:18] Why Artists Shouldn’t Sell Their Catalogs[22:23] What Isaac Loves About Technology[23:40] What Does Fanbase’s Future Fundraising Timeline Look Like?[26:38] Size Of Fanbase’s Team Now & In Near-Future[27:51] Atlanta’s Underrated Scene Outside Hip-Hp[30:39] Isaac’s Influence For Creating Fanbase[32:34] Getting The Music Rights Back For His Dad[33:48] Keeping Black Icons Relevant Post-Death[36:14] Will There Ever Be An Isaac Hayes Movie?[41:45] Fanbase’s New FeaturesListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Isaac Hayes III, @isaachayes3  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. _______________TranscriptionIsaac Hayes III 00:00I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it, I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward.Dan Runcie 00:53Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Isaac Hayes III. He's the founder and CEO of Fanbase. Fanbase is a company that helps creators better monetize the content they put out. And on Fanbase's platform, followers can subscribe for $3.99 a month to get all of the exclusive content from their favorite creators, or they can follow creators and they can spread love. Love is the primary form of engagement on Fanbase, and it's how creators monetize. The more likes and love they get, the more revenue that they get into their pockets. So Fanbase addresses a lot of the challenges that people have had about social media more broadly. And in this chat, Isaac and I talk about what the journey has been like. He's been able to raise $6 million through crowdfunding. He did it through this platform called StartEngine, and he's had many well-known investors on board, folks like Snoop Dogg, Charlamagne The God, Kandi Burruss, Chamillionaire, Roland Martin, and more. So we talked about his decision to go that path as opposed to the traditional VC route. Isaac and I also talked about the trend of music publishing and the catalog sales that have been happening, and why he actually thinks that a lot of musicians should not be selling their catalogs. He is not the only person to say this, but these voices have been a little bit quieter in this narrative. So it was great to hear his perspective on this. And then we also talked about the other hat that Isaac wears. He is the manager of his late father's estate. His father is the legendary singer, Isaac Hayes. So we talked about what that experience has been like managing the estate, and how his father's experience in the music industry had formed a lot of the work that Isaac Hayes III himself wants to create and the opportunities he wants to do through Fanbase. We also talked about what an Isaac Hayes biopic would look like, and who Isaac Hayes III would want to play his father in a movie. I think he had a pretty good answer. I'm a big fan of this person. So I think you'll enjoy who we said. We also talked about Atlanta's impact, and just how influential that city has been in culture and for Fanbase as well, we had a great conversation, and I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Here's my chat with Isaac Hayes III. All right, today, we got Isaac Hayes III with us. He's the co-founder and CEO of Fanbase, an app that helps creators monetize the content that they put out into the world and get what's there. So Isaac, thank you for joining. And it'd be great to just hear from you how things were going with you and how things been going with Fanbase. What's the latest been?Isaac Hayes III 03:46Man, we just closed our second seed round of $2.6 million on StartEngine. So we've raised a total of $6 million in less than a year. It's been phenomenal. We're adding a lot of amazing functionality to Fanbase. And new features are rolling out in the next couple of weeks, a new version of audio, which is one of our flagship features on the platform that's monetized for all users. So it's an exciting time at Fanbase.Dan Runcie 04:10Can you talk to me about your fundraising process a bit because I know that you crowdfunded the 6 billion. You were able to do it at a few different stages. But what made you go that route, as opposed to the more traditional venture capital fundraising?Isaac Hayes III 04:25Two things: one was just a recommendation by a really good mentor of mine to do so. And it was in COVID, because, you know, we couldn't move. And I had a real kind of like off-putting conversation with a VC. And it immediately reminded me of the music business. And so in my mind, I immediately thought, okay, these seeds are like the label. And I'm like an artist trying to get a record deal. And so starting to gave me the opportunity to go independent, and sell my shares out of the trunk of my car to the tune of $6 million, which gives us better leverage, and lets people know that we don't need venture capital to raise serious cash. And so that's really how it, you know, wind up that being that way.Dan Runcie 05:06Yeah, I heard the comparisons from a lot of people. And I think that the thing you often hear from folks that do crowdfund is that it can take a lot of time to get there. But at least from what I've seen from your process, you were able to get several thousand investors in a pretty short amount of time. So what were the steps from that perspective to keep the momentum hot, and to make sure that you had a strong pipeline?Isaac Hayes III 05:29I think the best thing is, when you're, I think the biggest benefit was the fact that it's a product that the investors can actually use in real time. So it's not like they're giving to something, and they're investing in something and not knowing what the product will be or what it does. They're a part of it in real time. And it's something that's relatable to them. If I go and invest in a tech startup that does something to do with aerospace engines, cool, when I'm not with it every day. I just sit back and hope that they make the best decision possible with my investment. But Fanbase is something that I think is more personal to people because of where we are social media. So I think that gave it a lot of energy, because people are a part of the process, and they feel part of the platform and part of this journey together in real time. So it's something that you can use, you know, and then who better, I got to say, to give actual equity in a social media startup into the users themselves that will actually make the platform grow. Dan Runcie 06:20And I think you're able to find some influential folks with that too, right? You got Kandi Burruss, you got Charlamagne. And of course with their platforms, they're able to help amplify and can connect you with other investors or just other creators, given what they've done.Isaac Hayes III 06:34Yeah, but we honestly haven't used them in that fashion. And I actually don't typically want them or to do that particularly yet. And the reason being is because I like the fact that they are silent in their action, because a lot of times when people of notoriety step out in a space where they're invested in a platform and may turn other people off, that feel like well, I didn't get that opportunity. And in social media, it's more about the users. The most important investors on Fanbase, and we have some really big, big name investors, the most important investors on Fanbase are the actual users, the larger, broader, probably a sea of 8000 plus individuals that have put their money in and actually use the platform on a day-today basis, who will be those day-to-day, you know, hardcore super users. But relationships and those investors that are of a high stature like a Snoop Dogg and stuff like that, their time will come later. They all, I know, they all know exactly when they're going to get on and when they're going to turn the engine up on the platform. So we're just, you know, we're focused on the core audience and the core investors of the platform being what we really focus on at Fanbase.Dan Runcie 07:41And with 8000 investors, you mentioned $6 million raised, it makes it pretty affordable to, you know, for people to be able to have a stake, because I think that's one of the challenges that you often see from institutional money that comes through or some of the minimum buy-ins for some investments is that it isn't always the most accessible for folks that may be interested. So I think you're able to at least allow that to happen given the amount of people that were able to invest for the total amount you have.Isaac Hayes III 08:10Absolutely, I mean, the accredited investor rule has kind of been a barrier for all people, you know. I don't care what race you are, if it's a law that's been in effect since 1933, it's just only given opportunities to rich people to actually invest in early stage companies. So you're coming out of the Great Depression, if you ever wonder why none of your family members got a call to invest in IBM, or Microsoft, or Apple, or Facebook, and so on and so forth. It's this accredited investor rule that is given all the best opportunities of wealth to the wealthy. And so I love the fact that Barack Obama and Joe Biden pass the Jobs Act and allow people like myself to go to my peers and the public to actually have the same opportunity that VCs and accredited investors have to get a piece of the American dream by investing the same way that all these other people have been able to do for 83 years.Dan Runcie 09:01I think we're gonna see the rules continue to break down on that. I know now they have that flexible option where I think if you take the Series 63 or 7 or one of those tests, then you can become accredited. So that's one way to pass the income thresholds. But I feel like even that is probably going to break down at some point. That just feels like where everything is at it.Isaac Hayes III 09:22It should. I mean, one of the seed investors in Uber, a guy by the name of Oren Michels only invested $5,000 into Uber, but when it IPO in 2019 is 5000 was worth 24 million. And I'm like, well, how come we can go to Vegas and spend $5,000 on the crap table or go buy $5,000 worth of lottery tickets, but I can't invest in Uber. And I think that's the real crime is that, you know, it's okay that if you go blow your money gambling in that fashion, but not gambling in in the fashion of investing your money in a startup like Uber, which wound up being very, very successful, so the rules have to change and platforms like StartEngine are breaking down those barriers.Dan Runcie 9:59Right, especially when so many other people using it and giving these startups their early validation are the ones that believe and see in the future. So I feel like those dots got to connect eventually. But...Isaac Hayes III 10:10It will for sure.Dan Runcie 10:11Going back to Fanbase itself and how things are, I read that you have a goal be able to hit a million users in June. And it would be great to hear what your strategy has been in terms of acquiring customers. What's been the most effective thing that you've done to get more creators and users onto the platform?Isaac Hayes III 10:30I think the biggest thing is actually just word of mouth, right? It's the quality of the product. And then I think we're in a very unique time, a very opportunistic time for platforms like Fanbase to emerge, because of this transition from users wanting more access to their following, they're getting tired of words like shadowbanning and content suppression and stuff like that. And algorithms are becoming the enemy of the common user on the platform, or even the super user on the platform, because platforms typically are profitable off ad revenue. And so for that to happen, you can't simultaneously provide visibility for every user on the platform, and then run ads at the same time. That's counterproductive to the business model. Because if that's the case, then the people that buy ads would just go to the users themselves and run ads that way. And then you would have no business model. And so Fanbase is just you know, emerging at a time right now that I think the conversation is different. And ad based, ad-based revenue social media platforms are going to continue to change that puts us right, at the right time to continue to grow. So word of mouth. And then timing is just helping us, and then we have an amazing creative advisory board of young people. There's some other strategic partnerships, and I'm really excited to begin working on that, they’re really rooted in community and rooted in the culture of what we want on Fanbase, which is young, centennial people of all races, ages, backgrounds, creating content and monetize.Dan Runcie 11:56What are some of those partnerships? Anything you can share with us?Isaac Hayes III 11:59No, because... And the reason why I can't is because they're really savvy in the way there's things that I think, social media startups, I'll say this, like, I think Fanbase has the best advantage to become a social media unicorn by simply being in Atlanta. And what I mean by that is like Atlanta, is the epicenter of black culture in the United States of America. And what we know about Black culture is Black culture is pop culture. And we know about pop culture, pop culture is what drives social media. So therefore, if you're right at the epicenter of where the viral challenge is going to happen, or the newest, funny influencer, or the dance challenge, or the artist is at, being able to have them be part of Fanbase, and part of that community gives us a really big advantage. So some of those partnerships are rooted in culture, and community, and music. I can't announce them or anything, because it's really dope, though, the way that you have an advantage to do so. And I think a lot of the other platforms know that, which is why they kind of try to pivot in and out. And also try to acquire those users from Atlanta, those the talent, they're like, oh, let's pay them. Let's try to get them, you know, in the same way, but I think Fanbase just has a little bit more of an advantage.Dan Runcie 13:09I hear that and thinking, too, about making sure that the talent gets paid fairly. I think that's been the underlying theme for so much of why you wanted to create this. There have been so many people that we've seen have become viral sensations, or creators who have a strong following, but being able to really tap into that in a meaningful way hasn't always worked. And in some cases, it's everyone else making money instead of them. I think you would have that story about the ghetto Spider-Man and how the person behind that had blown up, but he's the one calling you like, hey, what do I do? Like, is anything that can help here? And you think about that, and you just think about all of these creators, whether it's folks on TikTok, that are, like the guy that does the hands video, you know, he is, you know, one of the biggest creators, but he isn't anywhere on that Forbes list of the top creators. So I feel like you’ll be able to bridge that connection of, okay, there's clearly a market gap here and how we can have a platform that can close that and how big of an opportunity that is.Isaac Hayes III 14:13It's an enormous opportunity. I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it. I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And it just, it gives everybody a chance to make money as opposed to the people that the apps highlight to be most successful, because they're the best vehicles for ads to run in between their content. Think about that, like the larger audience on, the greater audience of a platform like Tiktok, since there's really only one kind of like channel. It's literally just a platform of short form video. So the wider audience on their demographic on that platform is a white audience just based off of the United States. So therefore, it would behoove them to have bigger white stars to run ads to monetize that larger audience. So that's what they kind of have to focus on. So Fanbase doesn't worry about that. It doesn't matter who you are. Everybody can be a superstar on the platform.Dan Runcie 15:42Yeah. And that piece about the subscriptions as well, it just, everyone having that and then seeing who can profit off of it. It also makes me think of an exchange you and I had had recently, we're talking about what's happening right now in the music industry and these catalog valuations, too. You had shared perspective that artists actually should not be selling their or publishing their catalogs, because how much room streaming has to grow. And you just look at some of the demographics on that. What's your take on it? And how much bigger do you think this market will get?Isaac Hayes III 16:18Man, I think it'd be massive. Like I said, at the time, last year was 400, I think it was 450 million people were on music streaming services this year, it's like 525. It's jumped up. That's like, you know, almost like 7 to 9% of all the people with the ability to have streaming services like Apple Music or Spotify on their phone, have them over the next decade by 2030, I think it'll be close to a billion people, so that, that'll be almost a little over double what is available. So imagine and that's only that's only like 1 billion, it's less than a billion, not even a billion people a music streaming services, but there's 6.3 billion people on the planet with smartphones, you know, satellite Wi Fi, satellite internet is going to be something that is going to actually be more connected, as opposed to where wires can go. You know, satellites can go to provide people Internet, and then with video, like, there's like 222 million people on Netflix. And there's 6.3 billion people, the available market share is massive. So I mean, as big as a company is Netflix is, they don't even have, you know, they don't even have 7% of the market of available people that can get on their platform, it's more like three and a half. So think of the growth potential that Netflix can have or anybody that's providing subscriptions via content they can have. That's why we're focused on person-to-person subscription content, which I think will trump everything in the future. Dan Runcie 17:42Yeah, it's interesting, because I think there's these two trends happening, because one of the reasons everyone's buying the catalogs is exactly what you said, people see the upside, were streaming's going n the other side, you're also seeing, whether it's Netflix or Spotify, the rapid growth that they may have had once starting to slow down a little bit. So you do think about, yes, you know, a service like Facebook, if we think of that as being like the most ubiquitous thing out there, you know, several billion people on it, but it's also because it's free, right? So it's like, there's some number of what are the total number of people that will be willing to pay $999 in the US for music streaming service, or whatever that price difference may be in their respective place. We still haven't gotten there yet. And I'm curious, you know what that actual number will be. And it's just so hard to know, because I think some people think it's going to be a lot higher. And there's other people that think that we’re close to that peak. So who knows.Isaac Hayes III 18:38I don't think we're anywhere near the peak because it's the nature, the market will grow as the youth grow. And so as kids are more like, kids are trained and kind of use to subscriptions, and virtual currency, and app purchases, it's that they've known that their whole lives. I remember when I was first discussing building Fanbase, I spoke to someone that was in their 30s, they were like, I'd never subscribed to another person, right? Why would I do that.? And then I was in the Apple Store, and I just randomly asked this 20, I think the young lady was probably like, 21 years old. I think I asked how old she was. She says I'm 21, I was like, if you could subscribe or what her favorite group was, and my first inclination that she was going to name a very famous artist, and she named an indie band, right? What's your favorite artists? I bet you're gonna name somebody like, you know, Ariana Grande. I said, if you could subscribe to that person for $3.99 a month, that band for $3.99 a month, and they would post videos and they were working on their album or exclusive photos and stuff like that.Maybe, they might let you buy, you know, tickets to their show before anybody else, would you do that? And her answer was like, fuck yeah, $3.99. And I'm like, that's when I was, okay, I gotta do this because they don't care. There was, I remember, there were legions of people that swore they wanted to own a mp3. And I'm like, man, it's $10 a month to listen to everything that's ever been created. Only your mp3 is out of here. That's a done deal. So I think the market will go as the youth decide. And the youth are showing their propensity to spend, or virtually, you know, their Cashapp and Venmo and PayPal, their NFT's, their crypto, they're all in that space. So I think it's going to actually explode way beyond what it is now.Dan Runcie 20:13Yeah, that's a good point. The other thing, too, is that there are just so many other services beyond the digital streaming providers that are offering some type of music experience that's going to drive up the platform, right? Like it doesn't always have to be streaming. It can be in app purchases, the same way that, you know, these kids go wild about V-bucks or whatever it is in these games, it's going to be the same thing there. As more and more of these companies getting music licensing, like, we're going to see that continue to happen. So it'll be interesting.Isaac Hayes III 20:42I'm telling you... I'm spending money on Call of Duty to make my gun cooler or wear cooler outfit. Kids are going to spend money to have access to shoes before anybody else can, tickets before anybody else can, experiences that no one else can have for, you know, small amounts of prices, and that give them exclusivity and clout and bragging rights. Trust me, I know exactly what's going to happen.Dan Runcie 21:07Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Let's talk more about today's sponsor Intercept Music. The company is on a mission to empower independent artists everywhere. This is a tale as old as time. Artists and labels have often had to choose between their creative freedom and autonomy and access to marketing and distribution that would catapult their careers. Well, that's no longer the choice, especially today, people can have both and Intercept is one of the companies making that happen. It offers a fully managed advertising and promotional service allows you to distribute your music and you have the opportunity to sell merchandise through its branded online stores. This is your one-stop shop to manage your career and take it to that next level. As an artist or label, Intercept can help you unshackle your monetization opportunities and, as Method Man said himself, you can use this platform and keep 100% of your shit. To learn more, go to interceptmusic.com and learn how this company is helping independent artists like you take their careers to the next level. You mentioned Call of Duty for yourself. Are there any other personal areas that you've been personally where, you know, attracted to, whether it's a single game or a solo thing where, you know, a majority of your attention has gone to?Isaac Hayes III 22:23Just call... I only play one game, Call of Duty. I've been playing Call of Duty for like 12 years, I like content. So I used to fly drones, like, all the time. Like, not just for the fun of flying, but the fun of capturing the actual content and creating content. But other than that, I mean... Social media is like, it's a passion of mine because I liked the connectivity. And I liked the potential. I liked the potential of being disruptive. And where we can create unique experiences via technology. That's one thing I love about technology, technology doesn't give my brain like a limit. I have conversations with my CTO and say, hey, you know, can we do this? And he's like, the question is not if we can do it, it's just how long it'll take us to do it. How many man hours? Well, we could do it. And that's the greatest feeling to have, like, can we make this do this and just do this? He's like, yeah, we could do that. But and so having like, your imagination not being limited. Only the, only limitation is your resources like man hours, and manpower, and funds. And cool. Like, I understand that part. So don't you know, don't give me $100 million dollars, move out of the way. You know, no, don't let me raise $100 million. You want to see an app, like be fly than anything you've ever seen? Fanbase is phenomenal. And we raised $6 million. Imagine what we do, and we raised 60, 600 million, it's gonna be phenomenal. That's why I'm excited. I'm like, oh, it's gonna be go time for sure.Dan Runcie 23:40So what does the future fundraising timeline look like for you? Where do you think you'll raise again? And how big do you think that'll be?Isaac Hayes III 23:46I mean, we've been getting calls, which is kind of curious, because I guess the A&R of what a VC is, their version of A&R has been starting to reach out because they see Fanbase making waves and so now, it's not me going to VCs, but it's VCs coming to us, which is better. So I feel we still have a lot of work to do in a short period of time. But I would like to raise a significant series, a somewhere, you know, in the eight figure range, really to get us, you know, in eight figure range to really get us where we need to be because there's so much involved with data and streaming and music licensing. And so these platforms have to be funded to scale and so we're gonna need it. You know, I love the notion of being able to continue to raise equity crowdfunding with people, and I think I'll find ways to continue to do that. But you also... VCs also serve a very good purpose of their knowledge, their relationships, their experience. So I'm not opposed to them. I'm just sometimes primarily opposed to the terms. So now we can have conversations that are different than that. I'm not opposed to the VCs, I'm just opposed to the terms. So sometimes we just have to work better and making sure we get fair terms by doing things on our own. Dan Runcie 24:54And I think the fact that you're at the place you're at now gives you the leverage to do that, right? I think one of the reasons that the unfair terms happen more often is because the founder or the founders don't come from that place of leverage. They're more so looking for the help just from being able to be sustainable, to keep the lights on and all those things, you have that piece of it checked off, given what you've been able to do with the money you've been able to raise. So it's more so, hey, we're trying to go a bit faster. We're trying to do this, this, and this, if you want to be in it would be great. But if you don't, there's other people knocking at the door who can make this happen.Isaac Hayes III 25:32Yeah, I mean, writing your own path, you know, coming from the music business, I look at like, I look at percentages, so I'm on a platform called PitchBook, where I can see like, how much equity was given up for what percentage and I'm like, what, gave up what, for 39% of the company, and like, hell, oh, no, you can't do that. Because you have to be strategic. And I know, sometimes we want to get our product to market so bad. And we want it, we feel that once we get there, doesn't matter if I gave him this much, it's gonna be successful, I'm gonna be able to do this, but you have to be conservative with equity, you can't be selfish. At the same time, people have got to invest money, they're gonna want significant portions of your company. But I think the more work you do improving your model on your own, the more advantageous you are as a part of the VCs, because now you can work together. I love my team, my team is brilliant, they're smarter than I am, I'm just a big idea guy that want to make sure, wants to make sure that the colors look good, and the energy is right. And then the rest is up for us to really, you know, structure this business. So I like writing our ticket that way by being independent, as I like to say. Dan Runcie 26:34So how big is the team now? And how big do you think it'll be end of this year?Isaac Hayes III 26:38So right now we have a team of 25 developers, and probably 15 other personnel or 40. But I think our development team would probably be 150, given a significant raise, and probably our executive team probably go from like, 15 to 30 people. So it would grow. I mean, you know, and that's with everything, running it, you know, at best case, you know, if I had it my way, because we can build faster and more simultaneous functionality. And then I love you know, being able to pay really smart people to make Fanbase do amazing things and in the right amount of time. So I'm looking forward to that though, we have a game plan to really scale up to a million users by June, it's two months. It's two months, as you know, it's April, you know, saying April 8, so we don't have that much time. But I'm looking forward to the grind.Dan Runcie 27:30And I also got to imagine that the Atlanta community and culture ecosystem you're around has and will continue to have so much of an impact on you. Can you talk about how beneficial it's been from that perspective? I know y'all got The Gathering Spot, and you have so many other execs there. How important has that collective been?Isaac Hayes III 27:51It's been invaluable, because the first conversations that I had about building a startup social media platform happened at The Gathering Spot, they were members that were in the tech space that I looked at as mentors, their names are Jewel Burks, Barry Gibbons, and Justin Dawkins. They are all accomplished tech professionals in their own right, and the fact that I could sit right next to them, like a kid, you know, being able to talk to like, talk to Michael Jordan or whoever be like, yo, how do you do this? How do you do that? How are you able to do these things, and then lending their ear and lending their voice and their information to me is invaluable. I think that was really, you know, the essence of community and Atlanta, especially in the black tech space. They're just tons of brilliant people and I've met met at those spaces, but those three individuals were like instrumental in helping me shape Fanbase to the company because they told me you know, why it's important that you have a CTO that has a stake in the in your company, why is important, like what your deck must look like, why you know, when it's a raise, how you scale, all these things that you have to bring together. And so that's the dope part about it. So the Atlanta communities are invaluable in that fashion. We're all like, there's no ceiling of what you can achieve in a city like Atlanta with black leadership. I was just telling you, I just saw a clip today about Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson being able to be elected to the Supreme Court, Symone Sanders said, if you didn't elect Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff in Georgia, that would have never happened, he wouldn't have had the votes or the leverage to do so. And so a political community that's aware, that's African American that understands how politics play in the ability for you to scale your business and city like Atlanta is invaluable. That's the probably, the biggest asset to being anybody in the city is, is probably that there's a political foundation that has been built on for over 60 years that kind of gives people the energy and the confidence to try things that no other people would try. Like Tyler Perry saying, I'm gonna build a movie studio, like L.A. & Babyface, and we're gonna bring a record company to the city, like someone like The Gathering Spot, or Pinky Cole with Slutty Vegan, or Tracey Pickett with Hairbrella. Like all these amazing startups that are coming out of Atlanta, Georgia, and have come out of Atlanta, Georgia. So it's a place for you to dream and excel.Dan Runcie 30:02It really is. It's remarkable just to see how much of it stems in. I think so many of you as well have roots in music and how I think that has been the core of what you all have been able to do and achieve. And it makes me think a lot about where your inspiration for why this is so important to you came from. You would obviously seen your dad's experience in the music industry and some of the challenges he had had with unfair contracts and things like that. Can you talk a bit about how that through line was for you in terms of the influence and seeing that inspire where you want to be the most impactful and how that shapes Fanbase?Isaac Hayes III 30:39Yeah, so I mean, as a kid, getting into the music industry, the first thing I learned, before I learned about music notes, I learned about music publishing, and it's just because that's what your family's gonna tell you is like, look, all this creative stuff is great, but know your business, right? Because you can get taken advantage of, don't get caught up in it. It's a joy, like creating music, being a creator is the best feeling in the world, making songs that people want to dance to, and that are part of their lives. And never forget, if you don't have that business, it's going to be something that you're going to wind up having a bitter taste in your mouth about because you've created all this great music, but do you really benefit from it, people that exploit you. So content ownership, ownership of your content, exploiting your content to your benefit has always been something that's been in the back of my mind. So that's why I say I've approached tech with a music industry mindset and nothing gets grimier than in the music business. So like I said, you know, tech is nothing compared to, like, the record business. So if you can handle a record business, you can handle tech, because the deals are what the deals are. The deals are straightforward, you know, the music history just makes up their rules. And so I had a great teacher and my father and my mom who just taught me about the business. So I think that helps a lot. It gave me, it gave me quite a bit of perspective of why artists deserve to get paid more for the content they create. And that's any user on social media. Those are the people that are making these dances go viral. Also the people that are being funny, those are people that are bringing really great thought-provoking content that gets you thinking, get you inspired, get you to vote, get you to, you know, to protest. So we have to, you know, make sure that those people have an opportunity to really make sure that they monetize their energy in that way.Dan Runcie 32:16Definitely, and I hear you on how the music industry, there's so there could be so much lack of clarity on these things. I know one of the things that you've also been pushing towards is to get the music rights back from your dad's music. How has that process been? And where are things right now with that?Isaac Hayes III 32:34So it's just a matter of time. I mean, the good thing about Copyright Law is they expire, they return to the original authors. And so we're just in the process right now of terminating so much as a case publishing, we've terminated all the songs that he wrote from 1963, all the way up to 1968 into going into 69. So there's, you know, his entire songwriting catalog as a songwriter we haven't even gotten to the Isaac Hayes era, but we've terminated you know, one of his biggest works was a song called Hold On, I'm Comin' that he wrote for Sam & Dave that gets used at commercials all the time. So that process is moving along, you know, very steadily and now there's new opportunities and new deals for my family, or equitable opportunities, and the ownership is ours. So it's a great spot to be in right now.Dan Runcie 33:19That's good to hear. I mean, because we've definitely know how tough it can be especially on your side, whether you're an estate manager or you're just more broadly trying to get it back for the sake of your family or loved one so that's good to hear. And on the estate side of it, I know you do manage that. Definitely heard a number of stories of different people that have managed estates over the years, both the good that comes from it, but also some of the challenges as well. Can you talk a little bit about how your experience has been on that front?Isaac Hayes III 33:48I mean, well, I was looking at it,I look at a brand, it’s like a hot air balloon. And so the higher the balloon goes, the more people see it. So it's a job I'm going to stay to get that balloon as high as possible before you try to do things so people say well, how come there hasn't been a you know, a movie on your father I was like, well, there's more work the balloon gotta get a little higher. We got to, people got to see a brand and build it. So it's been tough because I think a couple things like icons, black icons are not always held to the same standard or represented in media the way that white icons are. And what I mean by that and that's the job above actually the black community to uplift its own icons to do so. And when I tell people all the time I said, look, you go to the grocery store, and you can practice this exercise, you can go, you can go to the grocery store, and you're always going to see one of four people in a magazine at all times. You're going to see John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Elvis Presley, or Babe Ruth, at any time. And all of those guys have been dead for quite a long time, but they never let you forget their icons. They never let you forget Audrey Hepburn, they never let you forget Marilyn Monroe, they keep their legacy and their icons immortalized by continuing to push them and elevate them through media. Now in black culture, we typically do that for a period of time, but you don't typically see Dorothy Dandridge, or Sammy Davis Jr., or James Brown, or Martin Luther King, or people on covers of magazines just cause right, it's usually in some drama that, you know, some tabloid is trying to bring back up, but just for the sake of doing an amazing pictorial on, you know, Ray Charles, and to let that continue to uplift his legacy. That doesn't happen that often. So we have to take better care of our black icons, and continue to uplift them in media to do so.Dan Runcie 35:32That's a good point about the same faces you already see in the magazines, or you go to the grocery store. I think all the names you mentioned are the ones that you often see. On the movie point, though, I do hope that we do get in Isaac Hayes movie, at some point. I know you're saying that, you know, these days, you got to wait for the bubble to get a little bit bigger. But it's one of those things we're in this moment now where you're seeing, I'm sure you've seen it, too, so many music documented, whether it's documentaries, or the bio pics themselves, and some of them are a lot better than others. But you still know that they all had a ton of money poured into them. So hopefully, while this run is going on, that bubble can meet and the stars can align to make something like that happen.Isaac Hayes III 36:14I think so. I mean, we definitely have a documentary that must be told before feature film, I think a biographical nonfiction version of what really happened and what my dad's life was really like is a story that I think should be told first, and then we could dramaticize that and infantilize that in a way that I think brings young people and old people together. And I have that in my mind of how we merge all these genres together, these generations together to really tell the story of Isaac Hayes because I think he's probably the most relatable icon to the current generation of any icon that's passed away, by the way that he looked, by the way the type of music he created because I'm like, it's like, there's not too many people that still wear clothes like Michael Jackson, or wear their hair like James Brown, but there's several black men with bald heads and beards and sunglasses still in 2022. So the relatability is there. And then in terms of evergreen music, it's just like people continue to sample him to make new records. So I think he has the most connectable thread to the youth coming from his generation to now so we're definitely going to capitalize on that, expand more on that in 2022 and 2023.Dan Runcie 37:32Who would you want to play him in a biopic?Isaac Hayes III 37:27Ah, I've said this before. Just off first glance to the surface is probably Jonathan Majors, right? I like Jonathan Majors. Jonathan Majors is a phenomenal actor. I looked at him, I said he could play him. But then there's like, you know, you never know. I mean, there's always this sea of amazing, you know, talent out there, especially from people... I always get trouble in saying it but let me tell you something, the UK Brits, the Brits got those actors. Like they come from places like, I'm like, most of the shows I've watched on TV, the actors are British, like what? Like Snowfall? Like All American? The Walking Dead? It's like, yeah, those are the guys that you wouldn't know. They're so good at what they do. You would have never thought that but they're so classically trained. And then there's some, you know, amazing actors in the States as well. But you know, even Daniel Kaluuya. I'm like, oh, man, all these dudes? Brits be crushing it. So who knows, though, but Jonathan majors is an amazing actor. And I think he could do a great job portraying Isaac Hayes.Dan Runcie 38:24He's a good one. I'm excited to see what he does at this Creed movie coming up. And the range is there, you saw his Marvel thing, and I've done of course, Last Black Man in San Francisco. He's so good.Isaac Hayes III 38:35Yeah, I'm like, What's he gonna do a Ceed? I'm like, okay, what's going on? Like Creed 3? That's gonna be a good one right there.Dan Runcie 38:41I know. I know. Yeah. Isaac Hayes III 38:41It's going to be interesting.Dan Runcie 38:42That will be good.Isaac Hayes III 38:42Yeah.Dan Runcie 38:43Daniel Kaluuya, of course, I think he's one of the best under 40 actors. I mean, period. He's one of the best folks under 40 we got right now. So I mean, obviously, what he did with Fred Hampton was amazing. So I think he would be legit, but it's good that you brought up the British piece because it's one of these things where we both know, if that happened, people would be you know, all up in arms like they are about a lot of black British folks that play American actors, thought or based off of American icons. But it's like you yourself as the person representing the estate in the family is like no, I would endorse this based on what you're seeing. We know how that conversation would go.Isaac Hayes III 39:24Oh, yeah, no. Yeah, I think again, like I said, Jonathan Majors was the first in mind that I had. And again, you never know who's out there by way, like, even like I watched it just by actors in general. I watch Winning Time, the story about the Lakers and the guy that plays Magic Johnson, they just found him like,Dan Runcie 39:37He's so good.Isaac Hayes III 39:40He's so perfect for the role. That's what I'm saying. Like there's always the right person for the role, it's out there. You got to find them. But it’s just like I said, I don't think he's, he hadn't been in anything, I think, a lot of stuff. I don't think he'd done a lot of stuff. But they were like, it's this guy in California, like, give them a go. See, when we came in the room, he smiled. It did that. Like, it's Magic Johnson. He's killing it. So yeah, you always know that and I think, and also, here's another dream of mine, though, is I do want another Shaft film. I want another Shaft film with a modern Shaft, right? I want a modern, you know, modern day Shaft and the person that I think that should play that is Mahershala. Ali. I would love to see Mahershala Ali as a new Shaft do that. I know he's about to be Blade, his plate is full. So but again, yeah, I think Shaft go modernize is something else to do, such a big part of my dad's career. So and I think there will always be an appetite to have a black, you know, superhero in the sense of saying, a person that stood up for his community and fought crime and as a stand up black man. So I think there's always the ability to do that, too.Dan Runcie 40:41Oh, yeah, I think he would be great at that type of role. And I think that Blade definitely gives you some of that imagery of, you know, the black trench coat and everything. And the whole vibe, too. But yeah, I think that'll be good.Isaac Hayes III 40:53Sure.Dan Runcie 40:53Even what artists would, you know, cover the version that your dad did, and you know, with that, I mean, thinking about that, too, for the song perspective? Isaac Hayes III 41:03Yeah, we have a lot of unreleased, I have a lot of unreleased Isaac Hayes music that was recorded around the same time. And trust me, it's some Shaft D stuff in there, some stuff. Like I've been holding on to it for years now. Like I think I transferred those masters in 2014. For eight years, I haven't even really let some of that stuff. Like I said, they won't call about another Shaft at some point. And I'm gonna be ready. I'm gonna be ready to let people check it out.Dan Runcie 41:25Oh, yeah. You know, the call is coming soon, especially the way that content works right now, the call's coming soon. Isaac Hayes III 41:30Absolutely.Dan Runcie 41:31Well, Isaac, this has been great. It's been great to chat, hear more about Fanbase, hear about some of the other things you're working on with regards to the estate. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?Isaac Hayes III 41:45Of course, to download Fanbase, we have a new version of audio, we have audio chat rooms that are monetized. So a new version of audio is coming in, like, probably, like a couple of weeks, we have our version of TikTok and Reels called Flicks so you can make short form video. And we have stories that are for followers and subscribers. So you can put your stories behind a subscription paywall as well. And I think that's something that's amazing, too. baseLike I said, monetizing content for everybody is just something that I think the world is gonna be all immersive in in the future, say right now is that kind of that friction point where it's like, is it really going to be a thing? And people are going to resist it at first, but once it becomes part of the norm the same way with all these other media verticals, our social media is just a next vertical for subscription.Dan Runcie 42:46Definitely, we see where it's all heading right. 10 years ago, people thought it was gonna be crazy, like, oh, you're gonna pay people at social media to do posts and now influencers do it on the regular. It's just a matter of timing, platform, and everything. And I feel like you got the right mix.Isaac Hayes III 42:40Thank you very much. Appreciate it.Dan Runcie 42:42Thanks, Isaac. This is great. Appreciate it. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn’t come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming’s future, he’s not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital.Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it’ll come from the streaming services eating into each other’s market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page’s opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn’t budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.  That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don’t want to miss. Here’s everything we covered: [0:00] The 3 R’s in the business of music[3:15] Will’s experience being a DJ[7:10] Lopsided Growth Of Music Streaming In Global Markets[8:59] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery [13:18] Will’s Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming[15:22] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services[22:59] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring [26:16] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours [30:50] The Evolution Of Music Publishing[34:32] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers[37:35] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like? [40:00] Will’s Biggest Issues With Web3 [47:01] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop Listen to Will’s mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/Check out Will’s Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work.Read Will’s book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption.Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Will Page, @willpageauthor  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. _____TRANSCRIPT Will Page  00:00The best way I could do this is, I just talk about ratios. There are three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rates pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with the three R's.I'm gonna stick to ratios that is, if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization? So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1, you're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label. On YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even because there's a sink right involved in those deals.Dan Runcie  00:46Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Will Page. He is the author of a book I cannot recommend enough. It's called Tarzan Economics. It's a guide to pivoting through disruption. This is a must-read if you're working in music, media, or entertainment. He is also a Visiting Fellow at the London School of Economics. He is the former Chief Economist at Spotify. So if you are interested in where the music industry is heading, where trends are going, this is the person to talk to. I was first put onto Will’s work, he had released this white paper called Rockonomics. And it was a breakdown on how artists were using Twitch. I wrote about the report in Trapital because I was fascinated by it. And then he and I started talking from there. So it was only a matter of time before he came on the podcast. Will and I covered a bunch in this episode, we talked about the growth of streaming, we also talked about the growth of vinyl, and how that impacts the economics for a lot of artists and songwriters and publishers. We also talked about the price of streaming services. Most services are still $9.99 per month in the US. So we talked about why that is for music compared to video streaming, where Netflix Hulu, and Amazon have been increasing their prices for their respective services. We also talked about music publishing and why Will thinks that that catalog will continue to grow. We talked about live music and some of the potential constraints where now the next 24 months everyone wants to go on tour. But there's only so many venues and so much money that consumers have unwillingness to see live shows. So we've talked about that we talked about trends in hip hop, we'll have a bunch of exclusive numbers to share in this. And it was great to talk to him. It's been great to also Jessica T to learn from him. I honestly do believe that he's one of the sharpest minds in the music industry. And it was a pleasure to have him on this podcast. And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here's my chat with Will Page. Alright, today we got the one and only Will Page with us. He is well known in the music and media space as an economist, but he also spent a lot of time as a DJ. And I feel like that could be a good place for us to start the conversation. Will, talk to me about your DJ experience and what you've been doing there recently.Will Page  03:22Well, I've been DJing since the age of puberty. And it was all inspired by one lyric by a rapper called Mike G from The Jungle Brothers from an album called done by the forces of nature, where he dropped his library. He said it's about getting the music across the message across getting it across without crossing over. And unlike a 14-year-old kid when I hear this, and I just thought about those words, getting the music across without crossing over, how do you get out to an audience without diluting its integrity. I'm only 14 at the time. But that just resonated with me so strongly, and I just kind of dedicated a huge chunk of my life to trying to get the music across to an audience that would otherwise not have heard it. And I'm not diluting how it's been presented. That's what a DJ can do. You can thread songs together in a way that gets music across without its dilution without crossing it over.Dan Runcie  04:11And I feel like, for you, you've been able to carry that through, you had we're not done we are done with 2021 I was able to do a quick drop for that as well. So I think what's likely inspiring for a lot of folks is that there's so many people that have music backgrounds and passions early on, but there's a pause if they're not able to continue that but you've been able to keep this as part of your charity, which I think makes so much of what you do with this space authentic because you yourself are someone who releases music.Will Page  04:40Yeah, I mean, the mix cloud allowed me to scale what I was doing anyway, if I go back to university in the late 90s early noughties you'd make mixtapes mix cassettes. There's a great way to date girls, but you could only do maybe like 50 100 at tops. Mix cloud allows you to take what you do and scale it scale what you love to do and the mixer UK only gave us a drop for weighing in dama 2021. That makes us no-hit 27,000 on Mixcloud meaning have overtaken Erykah Badu one of your former guests, I believe. So, you know, to get to 20,000 unique people with a mix that you care a year crafting together, that means the world to me.Dan Runcie  05:15It's a lot. And that's powerful, too. I imagined that you're always not just finding the sounds that make the most vibe for the year. But you're also thinking about, okay, what is the way that things are moving, especially at the pandemic? I feel like it's such an interesting year to have something like that. Because I think for some people, it's a year that they want to remember a year, they don't want to remember as well. But I feel like you probably already have a few things lined up for the mix you'll do at the end of 2022.Will Page  05:45Yeah, I mean, you're always looking for the bands that are not on Spotify, not an Apple Music, I think about half of my mix this year, you will not find in a streaming service. And I'm proud of that you're going to Discogs to find those rare white label bootleg vinyls, you're going to the source to the artists who are in the studio recording. And to you know, profile bands like Sault, or London-based bands, S-A-U-L-T, on that mix. That meant the world because I've been watching them rise over the past few years now. And, you know, to this day, nobody has any idea what the band look like, who the band are made up of, you know, this, like punk music, they're rejecting the system, they're doing it completely separately. And they're, you know, not hitting millions of people on Spotify with their music, they've let the music do the talking. So I often think about mixed culture as a break it down this way, the internet can scale just about anything, but it can't scale intimacy, and a playlist or as an intimate, that's just a bunch of songs straddle together and work them through the shuffle play feature, but a mix, a DJ mix of 60 minutes seamless mix, where you have vocal drops, you have beat mixing, you have layering, all those techniques that you've honed over the years, that's intimate. So what I'm able to do with mixtape culture is to scale intimacy, and that goes out for every other DJ you've had on your show. That's what we're trying to do right.Dan Runcie  07:05For sure. And I feel like that's a good segue to chat a little bit more about some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlists, which is Spotify. And I think more broadly, looking at the streaming ever we're in right now, this is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFP results. And streaming is continuing to grow, as we've seen, but I feel like you've probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading. And I think that's a question of art for a lot of people streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow? What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out to you?Will Page  07:43I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at the United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world, the global yearbook that we're discussing here, has I think, 58. So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent with a need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched, Americans made up 20 to 23% of the business round, about just over a fifth today, it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American. And that raises questions, economic questions, like globalization questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones, a theory says yes, the reality often says no, so we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market, the biggest country is growing at the fastest rates. That's a positive problem, but I just want to flag it, which is that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd want to point to as well as just vinyl, this vinyl recovery is just Well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery. But I'm telling you, is defying the laws of gravity. Now we're now looking at Vinyl being worth one and a half-billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads the three formats that were supposed to declare that vinyl is dead, but there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience. Firstly, on the consumer side, I saw a survey which suggested that the majority just over half of all vinyl buyers today don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So why are we buying it for now I'll extend that as well. The cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often costs more than the record itself. So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to be called New framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player that a lot of people will take those bizarre boxes, but on the creator side, something else is interesting. It'll take a little bit of working through but if we think about the streaming model is monetizing consumption, that's what it does. So there's an album A 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs and an album Let's say Dan runs, he wrote the three killer tracks, and we'll page the seven Duff filler tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money, and I'll walk away with none. Because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler. As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cache. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed. And it's a lot of cash by just kind of do some rough math, you have a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify. And let's say they're streaming it 200 times in the month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible. But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late 70s. The one most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the BGS, and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso struck his record there, which nobody has listened to, but the same royalty as staying alive by the BGS. Because it was a vinyl record. So to reiterate, on the consumer side, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played. And on the creative side, it raises questions about how these creators are going to get paid.Dan Runcie  11:16That's a good point. But that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search, because there's so much like wow, about just how much has been purchased. I think I haven't saw the stat that Adele's 30 albums sold 8000 cassettes or there’s a self-titled stat about that. And I think the similar thing that you said lines up, I think those people actually still own a Walkman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on. Because a lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel whether you're a songwriter, whether you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clearer path to be able to determine, Okay, this is going to be the lead single that this is what we're going to push most from this album, it really shifts the exhibit more to where things are going in terms of a single market and like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now. Right. And I guess that brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned, overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself that US penetration has grown from 22%, I believe you said is now 30 to 3537, somewhere around there. But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall, because of the international growth is decreased. And you have plenty of people that are still trying to get their fair share of what they can. It's streaming. So it's in like 510 years from now, if you could see into the future. Where do you think streaming distribution is I think the good thing is that people have smartphones, and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow. But on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical point where we've maximized the global penetration of this. What do you think about where that is going?Will Page  13:17Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for it's three o'clock in the morning, who's going to call time on it? And then secondly, I want to deal with the pricing point on its own lien as well. But on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I'd put it as in America, we've had herbivores we've had Spotify growing Apple growing, Amazon growing, YouTube growing, everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we're gonna see at some point soon is carnivores, which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify as growth or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we got to ask is, when do we go from the herbivore market we're in today to a carnivore market of tomorrow, and output Spotify as your subscriber number right about 45 million, Apple at 49 million, you dump on top YouTube, Amazon Pandora, you're well past 110, 120 million. Now that's important because I reckon there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial, because if you look at what Apple one's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two terabytes of storage per six accountholder is a household proposition. They're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we're in a race to the finishing line before herbivores turn into carnivores. In oil. We have this expression called Peak Oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world and has left to extract an oil All that's left is going to be even more costly to get out of the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're going to start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. So I just want to put that warning flag out there just now we're partying like it's 1989 Fine, but at some point, the party has to come to an end and growth is going to come at the expense of other players that then flips Neil from the east side to the B side of this record, we flip it over to price. And then pricing debate is interesting. I published this work called MelB economics, which we can cite on your wonderful website there, which was to look at the 20-year history of the 19 price point. And it's crazy story back in the third of December 2001. Over 20 years ago today, Rhapsody got its license for 999 offerings which had 15,000 songs first point, the origins of 999. Bizarrely deep back to the blockbuster rental card, some cooked-up label executive would have said that it cost 999 to rent videos from blockbuster. That's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case there was no smartphone back then no apps, no algorithms, that was all a weird world into the future. So you just had 999 for 15,000 songs we're now checking in early April 2022. And it's still 999 in dollar and euro and Sterling. But we're offering 100 million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article MelB economics what I do is I, strip inflation out in the case of the UK 999 has fallen down to six pounds 30 pence. Remember, you know family plan makes music cheaper to have 2.3 people are paying 4099, that's six pounds, 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for capital. But still, we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper to sew music in real terms has fallen to six pounds 30 which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine. So 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs more than 100 million songs, which is available offline on-demand without adverts that for me is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less. And you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence. Netflix has got me from 799 to 899 to 1299, to now 1499 In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus, the reason I'm paying for 99 and Disney plus is because I paid 1999 to get Cruella live on-demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the world's repertoire set for eyeball content. We're charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells, your whole content says like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma.Dan Runcie  17:49It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases. And I think Netflix for some plans is you know, at 99 It's approaching that level. But in music, it's this thing where yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing $1 But that's from 799 for Prime subscribers to that being 899. So, Ross thatWill Page  18:17I wonder if like what caused that?Dan Runcie  18:21I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things, right? Obviously, you do have this fight where the artists want to get more and the labels want to get more, you know, not just for the artist, but for themselves. And obviously, Spotify wants to earn more logically you would think, Okay, if you increase the price, and people just understated the economics of what's likely, if Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would blink. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is, if they jump up to 39 or 1299, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that have been shoved there yet, because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of the services, it's in when's it to be more of a price war, then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated contentWill Page  19:26100% And two things to hold on to a very eloquent point there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality, you may remember the commercial of lossless audio, you buy your air pods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your years and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we're improving the offer. We're supplying more, but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point can occur. into it. The second thing and we should get balanced into this discussion, because it's delicate is we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America, there's still another 100 and 20 million to go. But we know they're not they're interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet, the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we got to remember that there's still no oil to extract, it's not going to be easy oil to extract, the best way to get to it might not be to raise the price. But there's a catch to this. I can remember, in the early noughties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business. And concert promoters were saying, We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise hours, this is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange. And I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point to hammer home.Dan Runcie  20:57That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power is still as high consumer surplus because then that helps the stock price. And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you've just said made me think about that being a factor, potentially to the 100%.Will Page  21:27And of course, you got to distinguish the Spotify, Apple Music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies, in that they have a kind of variable costs, you double your business, you double your cost base, whereas Netflix, you jump up costs, and you have you jumped up your revenue, you raised me from 799 to 1499, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air on Netflix to this day. That is a fixed-cost deal that he did to get that content. And that's margin to Netflix. So you know, the cost structure matters in this one as well.Dan Runcie  21:59Definitely. And you mentioned like music there. And I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I feel like we're in this post-pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it. But we're in this post-quarantine era, art more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there try to capture what's there. But also from an economic perspective, from that most people are only going to go to a certain number of live events per year. And we have this 18 to 24-month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift not just who that goes on tour together? And then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like. And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s. How does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading.Will Page  22:58You did absolutely know on touring. I was lucky and I got to do some great work on the UK live industry. And I can only speak for the UK here. I know a lot of your audience knew us, but I think these points will carry across. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the normal year of 2019. And the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent recorded music which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on your Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Reading Festival for two days in a muddy field and reading costs more than 365 days of all the world's music. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012 The year of the London Olympics, and 2019 the live music industry in this country had exploded and grow but it was lopsided. All the growth came from stadiums, festivals, and to a lesser extent arenas, the theaters, the 2000 3000 capacity theaters like the Fillmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail. The stadiums or festivals The arena is as opposed to the theater as the club's the university venues. And that's interesting because that's going to change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean for the cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when you're hitting the road? I mean, credit to trap tool. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic. But as there's a big rethink coming along in this live music market is not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished. How do we get it back?Dan Runcie  24:49I feel like Cardi B has been a good case study on this specific point here, right. It's been four years now since she released an album and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time, that said she's done plenty of festivals where she served more on those festival guarantees that she liked what on tour. She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that same amount, if not more. So, there's a whole economic argument to be made. And I think there's also some risk involved, too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to get that nature back, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if you're set-piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it. But on a tour, I think it changes it's a little bit more pressure. Everyone wants to see that Instagrammable or tick talkable moment to then sell future tickets, and just the production costs and everything with traveling. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there, especially for someone like her I would have to go residencies to I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there. But yes, I still yet to do that. 30-city worldwide tour?Will Page  26:12Yeah, I think you got to think of your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics fevers, festivals, your back lines are your insurances cover travels already covered. I have numerous Hip Hop bands perform at festivals in Europe. And that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival. But your heart says what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans, right? You're staring at 50,000 Strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the heading the horror is going to come into play here. What I would add, though, is that there are rumors I would say here in the UK, at least that the promoters are saying I'll pay you a ton of money to film at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour. And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse the property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse like the music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festivals at the expense of the theaters that certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business, take a kick in well, festivals go on a roll.Dan Runcie  27:12Yeah. Because I think about you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now whether it's your Taylor Swift or Beyonce is they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours, that smaller venues when they were starting out being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right. And I do think that as good as festivals can be it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is I don't want to say necessarily short-term thinking. But I think you ideally want to have some type of balance there, right? Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different than I think running a business right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of you know, the thing here or there. But you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience are tapped into. You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game.Will Page  28:05Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass on to your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called smells like Middle East spirit, as opposed to teen spirit and ice play on words had to Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain, but what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a doer pessimistic Scottish economist, this is what you do is your spare time. Okay. So in 92, and Radiohead did Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner was 2526 years old. And all these hot bands were coming through the Britpop era. You know, there was so much development of new talent by 2012. I think it got up to 58. And I got a lot of criticism for that article, but then Glastonbury that year had the who and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 70 and 73 years old, apart, and then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab, it makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we develop talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions. And I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here. But we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seedbed for future growth. And then the big stage of exploiting that moment today, which could be the permanent stage at Glastonbury, the headlights siege up on a roof and mistakes. So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short term system, how this business needs to developDan Runcie  29:25Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short term, long term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today. And from a music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that the songwriters and the PA brochures. A lot of them necessarily in that timeframe didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals, and we're seeing people understand the value of that things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well. But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen and what the future opportunities are for that side of the business?Will Page  30:23Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Doreen Lauder, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Decca Records right the way through to 2012. She went enzyme records with Nigel Grange loosens half brother, they were responsible for Sinead O'Connor who sold 11 million albums based on the prints cover. And she once said to me, Will, this is how the music industry works, the record label piece of your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension, just kind of as a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works. That was then this is now clearly times have changed, I think. But it reminds us about you know what makes the business different. And that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this industry, regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager or an artist or songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright. We get that and it involves record labels. It involves SoundExchange involves artists involves ASCAP, BMI, GMR says EQ involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NMPA, and Wall Street, but the whole thing together for me all this spaghetti and straightened out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32 and a half-billion dollars, way bigger than what you've just heard I FPI, way bigger than what CS EC would say, this is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels 35% to the publishers. Now if you go way back to 2001 when we used to sell CDs by way of pallet and cocaine capitalism, these have no record labels. Back then, the split was much more in favor of labels no more than three quarters labels less than a quarter to the publishers. And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse the opposite happened publishers as labels went bust, ASCAP, BMI, kept on recording record-breaking collections. So you ever hear the toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff publishes as trundled along with record-breaking, not massive record-breaking collections, but he kept on growing their base. So the question he threw up is, what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to our business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishers less than a quarter? And is that a good or a bad thing? Or in this post-Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like peloton Twitch, TikTok comes to the business is that gonna have a completely different balance. Now, why this matters to your audiences, not just on the creator side. But also on the investment side, you pointed out catalog valuations we can dig into that if you want. But just a high-level point is let's say that in a few year's time, I go into my Batcave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion is 40 billion, I'll come on traps or make an exclusive announcement cooperate today is worth 40,000,000,007 and a half billion new dollars have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar, is that going to split publishing side? Or is that going to split the label side. And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights be the author rights that really matters. There's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright.Dan Runcie  33:45So there's a few things you said there that I wanted to dig into, of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75% is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing but from a breakdown what does that look like for the Tiktoks? The Roblox and the peloton what is that share of revenue from those plays look like?Will Page  34:08So the best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios, there's three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rights pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with three R's. I'm gonna stick to ratios that is if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1. You're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents 40 cents even because there's a sync right involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sink right into a deal and you expand it to peloton or tic tock potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say well what happens in the future of TiC tock Because karaoke not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case that favors publishers even more. There's all these weird ways the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence, the labels, and the artists continue getting three-quarters of the cash. On the other side of the fence publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting a more balanced share. And that's what we need to look out for when we're investing in corporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter. And you're trying to understand your royalty statements.Dan Runcie  35:27Like how much higher Do you think I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the Tiktoks or the pelletize? And I guess as well, you made me think up sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their saw gets placed on one of these Hulu series or one of these HBO Max series? Like what is that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those?Will Page  35:50So I think a 50-50 split would be the upper end of the goal. If a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years Eumir Deodato, Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous EasyJet commercial over here in Europe, the artists and the publisher would see around a 5050 split of those revenues. Now would that happen in a world of streaming? Unlikely, but I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label $1 and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I got to repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable, that listen, post-Spotify economy, I don't think it's going to happen with the business we're looking at today. But I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow. That's the thing is, if I can quote Ralph Simon are a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been as a great reminder of just your will restless souls in this business, we've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years, we're streaming got that bank there. What's coming next, who would have thought peloton would have had a music licensing department 18 months ago now they're like a top 10 account for major labels.Dan Runcie  36:59It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder. Because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, we always got to be thinking about what's next. And you mentioned a few times about a post-Spotify economy. And what does that look like? From your perspective, I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other b2b platforms or with these other platforms, in general, having licensing deals, but what do you say? Or what do you think about post-Spotify economy? What comes to mind for you?Will Page  37:32Let me throw my fist your words, your joy, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute. And we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed that Epic Games just acquired Bandcamp, I learned a fascinating stat about Bandcamp, which relates to my book tours and economics. There's a chapter in the book called Mako by, where I sat down with the management of the band Radiohead, we went through the entire in rainbow story for the first time ever a real global exclusive to explain how that deal worked out what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary Tip Jar model. And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners, and fly from the Ben-Zion I bet remix of Radiohead have ever heard in my life is live. We're fishies Hip Hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary Tip Jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Bandcamp could be a vinyl record. Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a band and album out on Bandcamp, and you say a name, your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance of 10 bucks, the average paid is 14 People go about 40% asking, and that could be for a super-rich blockbuster artists who try something out on Bandcamp there could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn Robin and cons together trying to make them breed people go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me, and there's a great academic paper by Francesca Cornelli from Duke University, she asked how should you price a museum and intuition says top-down mindset, the museum should set the price adults 10 bucks kids, five bucks pensioners, some type of discount arrangement, but she said no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poorer people can attend. And you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is 999 and not a penny more. I think that's we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love. We need to take that ceiling smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that Bandcamp story whatever you suggest I'll give you 40% above because it's our we're not dealing with commodity we're dealing with culture and that's what we got to remind ourselves.Dan Runcie  39:43It's like the Met model right where at least the last time I went it was like $20 was the recommendation but to your point it at least at some variable threshold, but the people a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more so I hear you on that I, I noticed though, when you're talking and thinking about the future of this, I didn't hear many of the typical buzzwords and things that you hear about the music industry. Now whether it is NFTs or Web 3.0 or Metaverse, well, maybe to some extent with the Epic Games comparison, but what is your take on that piece of the puzzle, Spotify era.Will Page  40:20I need $1 and a glass every time I hear these words. So I'm just back from Austin, Texas, South by Southwest, a vague recollection of what happened over there. But I'm telling you, those words were bouncing around more than anything else. Here's a way of capturing of your listeners. This is the first time I've been to South by Southwest where nobody asked me what band did I see last night? Everybody asked me what VR headset that, I try this morning. And that's a sign of the times there and that is a sign of the times. Hey, did you try the Amaze VR headset? You know the make the stallion booty tour? Yeah, I tried that this morning, what Band-Aid nobody wanted to know about bands with pulses. Everybody wants to know about VR headsets. So we live in interesting times. And I think we're in a bit of bubble trouble here. I really do. I don't think this whole thing has been thought out correctly. Firstly, I'll give you an example of where I think the problems gone wrong. And secondly, I want to give you an example from history to show that we've been here before. So with NF T's, it is not. It's not an example of a woman who is happy to spend 1000s 10s of 1000s of dollars on a handbag because they can walk up and down Sixth Avenue and people will see that woman carrying that handbag, the signaling value isn't there. You know, I can buy a token that says I've seen the Mona Lisa on this day and put it in my locker. And if I show you my locker, you can see that I've seen the Mona Lisa that day, and you could buy a token and put it in your locker and you could show your friends that you've seen the Mona Lisa that day, but nobody can buy the Mona Lisa, we can just buy this NFT adaption of the Mona Lisa, but we can't share it across platforms. And that's where I'm struggling. That's where I'm struggling as irrational as that might be to spend 20 $30,000 on a handbag that makes you feel good having the world see you were fine. Do what you got to do. But with NF T's is not a cross-platform token. I'm worried that that's a problem with the model with the price of NF t's just very quickly, there is a term I want to introduce to your show called wash trades, which will meet a legal of 1936 which is basically if you're selling your house, you might employ an estate agent on the buyer side as well as the sell-side to cook up the price. And you can see if you try to do this in the stock market, you spend a lot of time and the chokey six years in jail for manipulating prices. Wash trades have been illegal since 1936. I think there's a problem with wash trades, manipulating the price of NF T's because they're unregulated. So I don't want to be the doer pessimistic, Scottish economist, in the room here pour cold water on this hype machine. But I have some issues with the product. And I have some issues with the price the product is docked to your locker and your locker only the price can be manipulated by ways which be declared illegal in financial markets. Conventional financial markets by wrapping that up. Here's my lesson from history. No Dan, in your record collection. Do you remember a rock band called kiss? Oh yeah. Were you a member of Kiss Army by any chance?Dan Runcie  43:08I was on the show.Will Page  43:11Right so if we go back to before I was born 1975, Kiss one of the biggest rock bands in America had something called Kiss Army for their super fans. So you could have kiss wallpaper because models. You could even have Kiss toilet paper. That was one of their top sellers. You could wipe your butt who key with Gene Simmons. That was one of their biggest sellers. And in 1975 They ran a competition on the competition was to say Hey fans, if you want to see a picture of the band with the makeup off there does famous black and white makeup. And we're going to have this competition you pay to enter and five lucky winners will be sent a photograph of the band for the makeup off. Now you're thinking NF TS kiss 1975 Where's he going? Follow me. Hysteria breaks out all these kiss fans in the kiss army want to see Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley with a makeup off. So crazy hyperemic competition the winners are announced the envelopes are sent out. There was five lucky winners get the envelope. They need scissors to open the envelope a pill it is black and white photograph of Kiss with makeup off. And after five seconds of exposure to natural light. The picture feeds genius, genius marketing incredible. But I'm struggling to see the difference between that and 1975 Kiss. You're competing for photographs, which feed in natural light and NFTs today so something I stress my big tours and economics is when you stare into disruption. It's really important to remind yourself that you've been here before and I think Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley have been here before.Dan Runcie  44:37It's an interesting take. And I do think about the first piece of what you're saying just in terms of something that stays in your wallet. And how do you share that elsewhere? I have seen some of the social platforms making it easier to be like oh hey, you could connect your Coinbase wallet to this whether it's Instagram or I think they're working on it now or to Twitter and you could make that your profile Make sure or you know the people that of course, you know will right click copy paste and save it put that as their profile pictures in different places. So I guess in their minds that's their version of being able to walk down fit that with the duty at Birkbeck, right. Will Page  45:15That's interesting. That to your point, that takes you back into handbag territory that corrects for the problem. Let's see if it goes but equally does the NFT lose its exclusivity when we do that as well. So it might work in the short term and might lead to the demise of NF T's over the long term because they're not that special. After all, they're just an icon for your profile picture. So is great to hear that there's that type of thinking going on that justifies my,  justifies my view.Dan Runcie  45:41Who knows? I mean, we're still early right but I do think that if I see your profile on social media, you turned into a board ape, we may have to have another podcast conversation I did.Will Page  45:55But I tell you asked him was obsessed with these topics. Even Austin, Texas Music conferences, get obsessed with the next big thing but this year, it was just bizarre how many references I heard to web three NF Ts, but if they can just give a quick shout out to the company amaze VR who are doing the mega stallion tour I watched make the stallion four times in Austin, Texas, I saw more VR of Nicholas Deleon and I saw of any live bear. But you know, they had the longest queues of the entire conference. If you judge success by queues demand exceeding supply, they won South by Southwest for the longest queues.Dan Runcie  46:27That's impressive. And of course, it makes a big star she's been doing a lot. I've heard a lot of good things from base VR too. I think that though, it'd be a great point to pivot and talk a little bit more about hip hop, the as we know, hip hop has been able to see a lot of its potential even more so. In the streaming era with us, given the popularity that's there. We've seen the numbers, we've seen the growth as well. And I know that you've studied this a lot, especially on the international perspective, just seeing how hip hop is growing in other countries. But I think some of that growth is looking different than what we may be used to seeing in the US. So what is your perspective right now on the state of hip hop with regards to streaming,Will Page  47:09you speaking about something that's close to my heart, but if I can start by saying, one thing that your podcast has done for me over the years, that reminds us of that famous quote, which has been reiterated by many rappers, which is rap is something you do hip hop is something you live, and we can forget that from time to time can drink a bit too much Kool-Aid and forget those golden words. Rap is something that you do. Hip hop is something that you live, you don't have a choice with hip hop, you live it, rap, I mean, you could play a jazz track, then you could do a rap track, you have a choice there, but hip hop is an eighth. And I want to pull those words up. Because when we talk about the genre of hip hop, I wonder whether it's really a bit of a square peg in a round hole here to take words, which means describe a lifestyle and their attitude or mentality, and then say that it's now a genre. Maybe rap should be the genre and hip hop should be the culture. So I just want to throw that out there for your listeners. And I'd love future guests to come on and pose them that question. If we're discussing the genre of hip hop, are we missing a trick that aside, some stuff which has been popping with hip hop mean, firstly, just the size of the audience in America, just north of 90 million people, there's 90 million regular listeners of hip hop that is phenomenal. If you think about how far the genre has come, the culture has come in 30-plus years. And secondly, who's out there in front. I mean, I would put YouTube as the number one venue for hip hop in the United States, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, they're all doing their things. But I think it's worth just reminding ourselves how important YouTube is to our culture. As opposed to Amazon Spotify. Apple is depressing your thumb on a piece of glass during a track. Repeat. Rap is something you do hip hop is something you live and you've had to Mercer, one of my longtime mentors on your show, just we'll back to that past podcast to get to where I'm coming from on that point. I think the interesting thing for me speaking as a non-American on a podcast with a large American audience to watch how it's growing out of the countries and one of the most interesting things for me was non-English speaking hip hop. Now, my sister who's a French translator, Annie, she introduced me to a rapper called MC solo way, way back in the day, back in the 90s. Even and I don't speak French, but the rap was just incredible, like the way that the French language flowed over a beat. He certainly won't recall any tempo. That was incredible. So, you know, I've always had an appreciation for how hip hop travels beyond its borders, playlists. Without Borders. Hip hop is without borders. So I just wanted to introduce your audience to a very interesting backstory in Holland and the Netherlands, where Spotify the first country, we scaled him outside of Norway and Sweden was the Netherlands. We got big there really quickly 2011, 2012 era and because we got big we could put some local foot soldiers on the ground to help with curation. And for the first time ever in the company's history. We started taking Hip Hop curation seriously outside of our core markets and because we're supplying curation that was met with demand and all of a sudden, we started seeing these Dutch language hip hop artists explode in Holland, Ronnie flex being a great example. I think around 2018, we ran the data. And we learned that Drake was the number one artist in the world on Spotify. Yet in Holland, he was an eighth biggest hip-hop artist. And the seven above him were Dutch rapping in a local language of Dutch. And that was just jaw-dropping to think about globalization, culture, back to the Jungle Brothers the lesson they taught me in 1989, getting the message across without crossing over how you can have local language, hip hop travel, like no other genre there is across the world. And you're seeing that happen in Germany, France, you're seeing it happen in Asia. And so it's important to apply a global lens to hip hop and ask what is it about this culture, which is leading it to travel in a way that other cultures are not traveling is that the expression is that the belief is that the conviction that comes through hip hop, and that's that there's a book on that topic, and then you'd be a perfect person to try and write it, I can get you an agent. And I'd be out of my depth, but just so really important see to so which is why is this culture traveling, like no other culture, I can see on a music platform.Dan Runcie  51:12It's fascinating. It's something I've thought about a lot. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I think about a rapper, like Devine from India, or I think about some of the artists from the Middle East as well. And I think there's similar trends there where hip hop is still the most dominant thing, but they're artists that are from their regions are the ones that are the most popular. And I think it stems back to thinking about the origins of hip hop and looking at where a lot of those other countries may be. Now you look at what the public enemy had done, or even look a bit earlier, like Grandmaster Flash and have done their share of realities of the environments that they're in their storytelling in a way that isn't being done by the mass media. And we're in an era now, you know, more than ever, we see everything happening in the world where, what a lot of the heads of states, or what a lot of the governments or main distribution, communication platforms in these countries are sharing isn't necessarily reflecting what's happening in those places. So because of that, you have people wanting to speak out on that. And I think that because people realizing what the public enemy was able to do in some of those other groups here by them saying, you know, we are the black CNN, we are the voice communicating that I think you saw a lot of that in these other countries. So even if it's different artists, you're seeing them share their version of what's happening on the ground. And I think, like anything else, the evolution of that continues to grow over time. It's been, it's been really fascinating to see that. And I think that is what, at least for me always makes it feel like this is the global language that keeps everyone connected in this space. Even if people are speaking clearly different languages from artists you don't know there's that common theme that you can tell even if you're watching a music video or getting a vibe of what they're doing. There's so many through lights there.Will Page  53:02Those comments are deeper than Loch Ness, so they can quickly top it up with two thoughts, just thinking aloud here. This is why I love about your podcast is with the way you take the conversation with just firstly, just a historical point. And as I mentioned with my book tours and economics, when you're staring at the disruption to remind yourself that you've been here before, when I hear stories about suppression by governments leading to a rise of hip hop as a culture rap as an art form. You just got to go back to 1877 New Orleans and remind yourselves how jazz came into being your Creole people. You know, when Jim Crow laws were reintroduced through the backdoor before since the African American community overnight, so you took classically trained middle-class Creole people brought into a culture which had the blues and African drumming, and out of that suppression came the creation that was jazz. And it's just I love when you alluded to government suppression resulting in creativity. It's just interesting to think how we keep on you know, history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes. And it's rhyming here when you start to think about the origins of jazz to what we're seeing happen with hip hop. And then the second thing I mentioned earlier that, you know, the internet can scale just about anything you want, but it can't scale intimacy. I wonder whether that's what hip hop is doing because it's, it's a postcard its storytelling is beginning with the word imagine and asking you to imagine the picture these words are creating, you know, that's doing something which I don't think your conventional verse-chorus, verse, chorus, rock or pop song is going to deliver. So the message getting the message across without coordinate crossing over. The message that we're getting across with hip hop is different from other forms of music. And that might explain a little bit about success at home and overseas that we've seen on streaming.Dan Runcie  54:43Definitely. Well, well, this is great. Thanks again for coming on. If you're listening, definitely make sure that you check out Tarzan economics. I can't recommend this book enough. I think that will is extremely sharp. And he's a thought leader in this space and it's been great to learn from him. So well. Thanks for coming on. And before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug in or let the travel audience know about?Will Page  55:07I have gotten no more travel plans to the States this year. But if they can just ask the audience to check out the mix on Mixcloud we ain't done with 2021 with a shout-out from Dan Runcie, himself, and many others, Mike G is on that mix Lord is on that mix. But I just hope that your audience because the show trapped will mean so much to me. I just hope the audience sees me as a DJ first and an economist a distant second that I can just land that point at the end of this podcast, I'd be happy.Dan Runcie  55:33That's a great note to end on. Well, thanks again.Will Page  55:36Thank you so much.Dan Runcie  55:38If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

It’s been ten years since Dave Ponte co-founded Audiomack alongside Dave Macli. The decade has been strong in international growth for the music streaming platform — Audiomack recently became Nigeria’s number-one overall iOS app in a given week — but if Ponte has it his way, Audiomack will next become THE “home base” for artists, a place to begin their entire musical journey. The platform has rolled out numerous features to support those lofty ambitions, plus has several others in the works. One of the features that is live is the Supporters monetization tool. Launched in December, the tool allows fans to directly pay artists in exchange for a “badge” that memorializes their name in their profile and that of the supported artists. In the four months of being live on-site, Supporters has created $30,000 in new revenue for artists on Audiomack. As Dave told us in the episode, unlike competing streaming services, Audiomack is concerned with increasing the “size of the pie” for the entire music industry — not merely finding additional ways to ”slice the pie.”Dave and I spoke at length about artist monetization — and how Web 3.0 possibly fits into the equation — throughout the episode. Here’s everything else we covered: [0:00 Big Start To 2022 For Audiomack[0:55] Evaluating Audiomack’s Supporters’ Monetization Tool Post-Launch[3:38] Updating The Supporters’ Product Over Time[6:47] $30,000 Created For Artists (So Far) With Supporters Tool [10:25] Artist Campaigns On Audiomack[14:28] Audiomack’s Newly-Launched Creator App [17:50] Mobile App “Stickiness” [20:23] Audiomack’s “Home Base” Aspirations[24:05] Artist Resource Guide On Audiomack[27:52] How Brian Zisook’s Twitter Threads Influenced Artist Guide [30:20] Different Dynamic Between Audiomack & Other Platforms[32:55] Audiomack’s Biggest Challenges [38:42] How Does Web 3.0 Factor Into Audiomack’s Future?[46:26] Audiomack Motivated To Bring AfroBeats To AmericaTo listen to more Audiomack Trapital episodes, check out the two below:Audiomack Co-Founder & CEO Dave Macli: https://trapital.co/2020/11/16/dave-macli-on-audiomacks-role-in-music-streaming-partnership-with-djbooth-and-global-expansion/Audiomack VP of Product Charlie Kaplan: https://trapital.co/2021/12/10/charlie-kaplan-on-audiomack-supporters-artist-fan-monetization-and-streaming-business-models/Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Dave Ponte Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. ________TRANSCRIPTIONDavid Ponte 00:00We cultivated all this. We aggregated all this. And now we're providing all of this for free. We're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know. And I’ve, when going through this guide, learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make, that can make a huge impact on their career in their life.Dan Runcie 00:39Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Dave Ponte. The Chief Marketing Officer and co-founder of Audiomack. Audiomack is a music streaming platform and a music discovery service that reaches more than 20 million people across the world. It was great to chat with Dave because a few months back, I had talked to Charlie Kaplan fromAudiomack. This is when they first launched their platform, Supporters. Supporters is a tool that brings artists and fans more directly together where fans can directly contribute to a release of an artist give money to the artist for that, have their name be associated with that, and be able to show that badge through the Audiomack platform. We talked about the rollout of that we talked about how that fits more broadly, with Audiomack strategy to be a home base for artists and how it's doing that also through its creator app, through its artist's guide, and a few of the other things it has planned. And that pivots us into a discussion about how Audiomack’s strategy fits within the broader music ecosystem in the broader streaming service. There are much bigger streaming services, but many of them are still copying a lot of the moves that Audiomack has done. So we talked about what that dynamic is where Audiomack is growing most right now and how this company is thinking about the future. And when you think about web3, when you think about all these other things, how much of this is an actual opportunity, how many of these things are buzzwords or just fluff, Dave and I get into all that. I had a great conversation with him. Here's my chat with Dave Ponte. All right, today, we got Dave Ponte here from Audiomack, and I got to give him credit, the company has been having a pretty good run lately. They launched some new platforms, they've been growing internationally. Dave, we got to get the latest on how things have been going on your end?David Ponte 02:50Things have been going great. We're really happy about how 2022 is shaping up. And we have a lot of great new features and platforms and apps and other things that are going to help artists, you know, improve their careers and move music forward.Dan Runcie 03:06Definitely. Yeah, I think it was a couple of months back, I feel like that, we're making the rounds because I had had Dave Macli about a year ago or so, had Zeon after that, and had Charlie Kaplan on most recently. And we talked all about Supporters. And I feel like this is a pretty big launch for you all when Charlie came on, we were just talking about the launch and the goals of having something where artists and fans can connect more directly in just bridging that line together. And now you have at least a few months of it to see how things have been going. So how has that been so far? How is Supporters?David Ponte 03:42I'm really happy with how it's launched. The product has worked really well. There hasn't been any when you're developing software, and you're adding a new feature like this, which is a completely different way that we would approach typically how our app would work. You know, we're a streaming platform, you know, you could play songs, you could follow artists, you could do all the things that you would do in a streaming platform, but now we're adding this e-commerce functionality. So it's a new foray for us. And it's gone off really, very smoothly. All the artists' supporters have been able to buy badges, it's all the finance and reconciliation portion has worked out very well, and the artists are really happy about this additional revenue stream that they can now employ.Dan Runcie 04:24Nice. I got to imagine for a lot of the artists, it brings them closer because that's one of the reasons that they're likely building on Audiomack as opposed to elsewhere. I feel like one of the pitches that you all have had from the beginning is that – A. you're going to have artists that are much more in control of what they're doing from how they're building their brand on your platform. And then I think, in addition, you're not necessarily always working with the artists who are more bound by a major record label or another entity. So by being able to have what I imagined a lot of independent artists using this tool and bring it up to you whether that is the through-line there, and of course, we're seeing so much happening with platforms in all different types of technologies trying to bring folks together, but I think you are able to do it in a way that is seamless, and it's visible because I think at the end of the day, people do want to be able to show off their fandom, and who they support.David Ponte 05:19Yes, one thing that, you know, I talked to Charlie, you know, who was one of the main architects of this feature, and he was a guest on your podcast, I recommend everyone had to listen to him if you listen to this now. But he told me I was very, he's a very eloquent guy. And what he told me and I thought it was a good way to look about it is, this is the first hour of the new year with this supporters product, there's so many different things that we want to add, and that we're in the midst of adding when I wanted to share a couple of those on your podcast. And, and, you know, we always had this challenge, Dave Mackley and I write what your things are never going to be perfect. When you release a new product, a new part of our product, a new app, you're never going to release it. So you have to just eventually push it out, let the people experience it, consider their feedback, and then work that into future iterations. So that's what we're doing here. There's a lot of new things we want to add. And we want to revise. And, you know, I'm not just gonna sit here and tell you everything's perfect, right? That would be boring, number one. But number two, it's not reality, especially with when you're dealing with app development. So one of the things we realized was the price of the supporters' badge, overall, I think was too high. So about a month into the program, we actually reduced the prices, the cost of the badge. So now, you know, you could buy a badge for $1 instead of $2 US and obviously changes depending on where you are, I don't think we're a global app, we're really big in Africa, particularly West Africa, and Nigeria have gone up. And once we lowered the price for the lowest cost badge from two to $1, we saw a lot more people buying badges and supporting those artists, we actually ended up creating more revenue for the artist with this small but impactful change. And we don't want, you know, the whole concept Audiomack has to have a low barrier to entry, whether an artist or whether you're a fan, you know, Audiomack is a free app, you could download, begin, take music offline for free, no matter where you are in the world. And if you're an artist, you could have unlimited space to upload your music, you have unlimited opportunities to look at the data, glean insights from how people are consuming your art. And now they can support you directly by buying a badge, a Supports badge. So that was one small but big, really big change, impactful change that we saw, and we made about four weeks into the launch of the product.Dan Runcie 07:41So I think that's a key point. Because I think a lot of people from the outside may look at the price sensitivity of $2 to $1 and may not think it's much but that's what we're seeing in you know, the Western world and being able to think about that relative to the price of a streaming service increasing or anything like that. But you're obviously global, and you're growing in places where that difference makes a lot more or that difference is much more meaningful. So do you have any stats or any, how that difference is from a quantitative perspective of how much of an increase or usage rate you saw from lowering the price from two to one?David Ponte 08:17Well, I don't know if I have that stat, particularly I wish I did. But we have more badges sold. I think once I did have my team collect was just the amount of money that we've made for artists since launch and that's 30,000 over $30,000. And that's a good point. We had that mindset. Obviously, we're a New York company, we're Americans. And we know it's hard for us to think about how what it might be like for someone in Nigeria or someone in Tanzania, for example. But we eventually figured it out. We got feedback from a lot of our ambassadors on our team out there. And I think the way probably to think about it is the streaming rate, right? So you know, you make a certain amount per stream on Spotify, title, Apple Music, SoundCloud, Youtube, Audiomack. And we're an ad-supported platform, right? So the majority of people who consume music on Audiomack do it for free. As I mentioned, we make money on ads, though the revenue from those ads pays the artists. So what we thought of is how can we increase the size of the pie? As opposed to how can we create more and more slices of that pie to split around, right? So if you look at some of the other streaming platforms, you know, powered royalties or this or that they're not making more money, they're just sending the money to different places, right? There's not more money in the pot. Let's send it around to more people that you listen to and that's not a bad idea. Inherently, I don't mind that at all. And that's good. But what we're trying to do is increase the pie. So when you buy a supporters badge, that pie is increased for that particular artist. And if you are making you know, $150 on 100,000 streams or you're making and maybe on Spotify $400 for 100,000 streams, again, depends on where you are and where you're listening. But if you get a certain amount of supporters, you know, we have a couple of artists that have 100 supporters on one song, now you're making even more than you are on Spotify. For that one song, everything is sort of comes into this effective stream rate, which actually is an advertising term that we flipped a little bit effective CPM or effective stream rate is sort of the amalgamation of all the different revenue that you're bringing in, that you could then turn to give to that artist.Dan Runcie 10:32That makes sense. Because if you're thinking about supporters, and you're thinking about just how many artists, you know, total that $30,000 or plus worth of revenue, then you're likely, as you mentioned, you're probably going to have a few at the top, it sounds like there's a few that have 100 or more supporters, but I see. But it does seem like something where you know, as it grows, and it continues, that'll be good. But at least in my perception, you get some if I'm wrong, it seems like it's most likely going to be you know, a few artists that end up doing the doing really well with it. But then their success in a lot of ways not only paves the way for others, but if they become case studies, they could be like, Oh, look how much money so and so made for being able to support us that influences others who either are already on Audiomack, to push their supporters more heavily or encourage us folks that may be on a different platform to come in short years and do the same.David Ponte 11:27That's a really good point. That's what my job and the marketing team's job has been to work with artists to create campaigns for those artists a way to get their fans engaged, but also to prove and provide a template for artists that might follow those artists that we're working with, to then do their own campaigns. And we've seen some of that, I'd like to see more, you know, when we built some additional functionality, and some changes, I think we will see more. But I wanted to give you some examples of some of the cool campaigns that we've seen artists do. So one is this is a Latin pop artist, her name is Noemi, and she had a really cool idea she came to us, we've helped her sort of put it together, essentially, one of her friends makes custom sneakers. So they made three different customs types of sneakers that like know, the sort of look and of the sneakers are obviously correlated to what her album and our theme of her album was that you support. And then when you support it, you know you have a chance to win these custom sneakers that she's going to sign that the artist is going to sign and send that. So she had a good amount of supporters, but not too many to where if you bought a badge, you would have no shot, right? I think she had close to 30 supporters for this. And one of those supporters will get this custom pair of like Air Force ones that are really, really dope. That was really cool example of how one artist, you know, created something with their fans and made some money in the process. But really, it was really to get more attention about her song. We had another artist, a huge dancehall artist, Alkaline, one of the biggest artists out of Jamaica, he's really big in Florida, there's a very large Jamaican diaspora in South Florida. And like the Fort Lauderdale area, I think there's more Jamaicans Jamaican-Americans there than anywhere in the US. So we got a concert, they're very highly sought-after events that happened actually just this past week. And if you were, he picked five supporters to come to the show on his behalf. So you, if you supported him in his song, you'd have a chance to win tickets to the show. So I thought that was really really interesting. He has such he was already getting he had more supporters than anyone who really didn't like do a campaign. He's just a mass of artists and Audiomack is really big in Jamaica and in the Caribbean. So his fans are really excited about that. I think a couple actually flew to Florida for the show. And they got a bunch of merch Audiomack merch, they got Alkaline merch, and they're really, really happy about that. So those are a couple of examples that I was really excited about, just like how we could bridge the gap from online to real-life, like a real-life experience.Dan Runcie 14:01Yeah, the Alkaline story hits home for me, I've actually been getting better again, I have family in the Fort Lauderdale area. So that speaks volumes there. And I feel like I'm thinking about the other places of the country that have pretty big shake-up populations, of course, New York, but also our for the county, which is where I'm from you got a good amount there. So I feel like alkaline has some Audiomack real estate there as well. But I think you know, zooming out of it and talking to you and you know, most of your colleagues as well at Audiomack. I do see the broader strategy around getting creators on board, how do we best support them? And how do we empower them to maximize what they can do and use our platform to make that happen? I know you all recently launched the Creator app as well, which I think is also along these lines. So can you talk a little bit about that and what you thought the market needed that made you want to launch this?David Ponte 14:55The Creator app, again, Charlie Kaplan, he was the architect of this and there was really a gap in the market, right? Like, if you look at our competitors, it's just not something that they focus on, right? Like the, you know, for our competitors, the majority of the music that they get are from distributors. So there's no touchpoint between the platform and the artist. And again, that's what our goal is to draw the shortest line between the artists and the fan. So more intermediaries expand that line, as opposed to shortening it. The Creator app is a tool that allows artists to through an app environment and not a website environment, what you could do on our Creator dashboard on the web, but the app allows you to engage with fans through comments. It allows you to see your stats, see where people are playing your music, what geographic area, see, you know, the graphs in terms of how many streams and how many playlists, ads, and favorite favorites are getting. And we're adding monetization to this as well. In fact, it's almost done by the time people statistics should be, the monetization functionality should be available in the Audiomack creator app. And what this will do is allow you to withdraw money from your audio Max stream earnings and your supportive edge sales directly. So this was a really, really important feature because, you know, if you think about if you have crypto, right, if you have the Coinbase app or one of these other apps, you probably look at seeing how much money or you're losing or gaining on a given minute, right? With crypto, you open your banking apps all the time you open your stock apps, if you have investments, when there's money involved, people are gonna want to check it all the time, obviously, it's their livelihood. So we're gonna give the artists the ability to withdraw directly from the Creator app and put that money in their pocket. And hopefully, they'll use that to expand their artistry, develop their career, and invest in tools that help them, you know, create more art for all of us. So the critter app is actually grown more than I thought we've already beat our goals. You know, we had goals for the marketing team to exceed a certain amount. And we've already exceeded them way early. So there's a high demand for it. And I think our competitors don't really take that part of the artist's lifecycle seriously. And I think it's really important. So we were happy to swoop in and provide that value for our artists.Dan Runcie 17:08And I think for the folks listening, to a lot of people, no, of course, you have the web interface, but a lot of the companies do go through this transition where okay, we clearly have it's available on the web. But let's build the app. And there's a number of reasons why I think it just leads to more stickiness, more usage. But are there any other advantages that you all had in terms of, okay, this app, whether it's the potential to have a moat around this, or the potential to have something stronger, because, of course, as you mentioned, a lot of it was available through the web before. But I do think that you know, an app just allows you to have likely a few more lasting touchpoints, and being able to add a bit more direct valueDavid Ponte 17:47100%. The whole concept of having an app is how can you make it more sticky, right? You know, all the social media apps are designed to essentially monopolize your attention, right? And for better or worse, that's how the app world is and how the world is. So how can we make it more sticky? What are the things that artists really want to glean from an app like a creator app, you know, some things that make them you know, make better decisions, or provide insights that allow them to pivot, if things aren't working or put more resources into something is really working, they need the information to do that. And it needs to be an ease-to-access that information, you know, to access our Creator dashboard, you know, on the web, it's not the smoothest situation, it's made for a desktop website. So an app allows you to just see it, click on it, and then instantly access, it is much quicker. And we had a similar, it was a similar process back in 2015 when Audiomack was just a website. And we started to see all the web traffic going down, and all the mobile web traffic going up. And that was probably similar for a lot of companies at that time period, and then once we created the apps at the beginning of that year, the game changed for us, and it's just something about an app that people love, and it's probably because it's made to monopolize their thoughts, unfortunately.Dan Runcie 19:07Yeah, definitely. And with this, you talked to a fair amount as well about your competitors. And of course, you're in the unique place where to call it DSP or digital streaming provider, maybe a bit too blanket because I think each of them are so different in what they offer. But I do think that you all have such a unique place where for a lot of it, maybe the competition at this point is if there is a home that an artist more likely to independent artists is trying to build and grow their career, it's whether or not that home is with you or with another else even if they may still some of them especially as they grow, they may still want to have the awareness wherever their listeners may be, so they may still put some stuff elsewhere but it's about Okay, where's that home base? Because I think no different than a company now. There's all these platforms where you could put your attention and everything but most people are poor. I'll be picking one or two to focus on and put everything behind. So I assume it's probably that way for artists, but it'd be good to hear from your perspective how that lens is, with competitors. Knowing that, you know, I'm sure you probably want to have that home base. But there are other artists that may, you know, have their feet in a few different waters.David Ponte 20:20That's exactly right. Home Base, I mean, I believe Dave probably has used that exact language verbatim, to describe what our goal is, you know, we want an artist to again, open up that Audiomack app and see if everything is going and then go from there. I always tell artists, when we speak to them, I'm not asking them to do everything, and only on Audiomack, right, Audiomack is a piece of their puzzle, they're going to have to put out visuals, they're going to have to use other platforms to gain fans. And that's fine. But we want them to really start their day and start their journey with Audiomack. So we have a couple of tools that are coming out very soon, that should reinforce that brand vision of becoming the home base for an artist at first place that they start the first song they upload the first 10,000 plays that they get. And it's incredibly important, it's incredibly competitive because we're, you know, really a David and Goliath scenario here, it's not a coincidence at all, our name is Dave here. So, you know, we're dealing with companies that are in the billions and billions of dollars of revenue. And, you know, we have to use that to our advantage, you know, similar to that old story from the Bible, or, you know, you have to be nimble, you have to outsmart them, you have to out-innovate them. And sometimes that works to your advantage if you want to add a product. And you know, Dave, and I and the team are behind it, we'll do it quick. You can't do that at a big company with all the bureaucracy, and that's owned by shareholders. So we try to innovate, you know, and be ahead of the wave as opposed to following the way and that's precisely it was creating that home base being the first place that artists journey so that one, they remember you in their laurels, you and we've seen that with a lot of artists, you know, that we've helped launch that are big now. And they come and they still, you know, fuck with us, for lack of a better phrase, pardon my French, but they come back and they still come to our studio, they're still meet with us, still create content with us and still promote Audiomack links.Dan Runcie 22:18Yeah, and I think you alluded to this artist's guy that you have coming up because I think a lot of it's that right? What is that playbook that you want to be able to give artists that they can see, and I'm sure it's involving Audiomack, but you're probably addressing the broader music ecosystem and chess promotion as well. Is there anything more about that rollout? And what that will look like for artists to share? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.David Ponte 22:45Yeah, so the artist's guide is going to be a free educational resource and glossary for artists, musicians, primarily, that are just starting or have recently started their career in their development as an artist. So the way that we approached it is if we're an artist, what would I search into Google, right? Meaning when do I need a manager? Or what is publishing? Or, you know, when do I get a lawyer? Or when should I get a record deal? Or what distributor should I choose? Anything that you might like, type into Google is kind of how we thought of it is something that we wanted to provide that answer for. And we had our very talented writer and editor, senior head of their, Donna Jasmine, best-selling author, Donna, who had interviewed dozens and dozens of industry experts from companies ranging from you know, Sony, to Universal to BMI to just all the big companies that do provide services for artists, and ask them the answer to those questions that you might type into Google. So we cultivated all this, we aggregated all this. And now we're providing all this for free, we're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions. Because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know, and I wouldn't be going through this guide learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make that can make a huge impact on their career in their life. Right? If maybe they just hesitated before they signed that deal they might have not been locked in. Or maybe if they just chose that distributor that you know, provided them an entryway into all these different playlists or, you know, whatever. They would have been better off saying we're very excited to drop this should drop it into some point on April 22. And I really think people are going to be excited about this. We'll also have a video component which we're calling artists one on one. It's really really cool. So basically, it's, you know, a narration of these answers, and we have a whole animated series devoted to that similar to Schoolhouse Rock. If you remember We're from back in the day. So it's like Schoolhouse Rock vibes, but with artists' education, so we realized that a lot of artists, you know, aren't going to read long paragraphs about stuff, just Realistically speaking, or just people, in general, see a long paragraphs, and we're not going to read it. So we created this audio and visual way to consume that, as a lot of artists probably will learn better that way. So they'll be able to figure out some of the answers to these questions that they've been interested in learning about.Dan Runcie 25:27Does the artist’s guide include following Z from Audiomack on Twitter to make sure you stay up on the latest?David Ponte 25:34So I will tell you the truth in his tweet threads are one of the inspirations for this, I'm not even capping at all this sort of predicated our decision to do this, because his threads get so much engagement. And people are genuinely interested in learning about this stuff. Sometimes people are afraid to ask, they don't want to be known as a beginner artist, right? Artists, especially in rap and hip hop, you know, you start off as successful write your first song, you're already talking about how you're really successful, you might be hesitant to maybe admit to yourself that you need to learn about these things if you're going to be successful in the long term. So hopefully, we could provide this to any type of artist who, you know, even shows the slightest interest in gaining this knowledge. Dan Runcie 26:20Yeah, I agree. And I said that in there because I think it's 100%. We just know how especially Twitter is as a platform, there is always going to be some crazy take that rises to the top, and having someone like Zia there to be like, “Hey, I'm going to call the bullshit, how would I see it, and this is how it is.” It always gets engagement or the organic tweets that he has, and I remember telling that to him last time I saw him like, I mean, he knows it, but I'm like, you know, you're doing good work. And that's why these things are valuable. There's so much that isn't necessarily there out in the open even as much information that there is now and sometimes sure you can listen to some of these clubhouse rooms, where you're not always going to get the most helpful information out there, you may get passionate voices that sound like they know what they're talking about. But that isn't always the case. So I think that having something like this, that's easy to access, because at the end of the day, you know, whether it's on Twitter, or whatever, so there's only so much reach that we have. But knowing that your platform with audiomack is the biggest reach that you all have as a company being able to bring that altogether doesn't make sense. And I mean, I think for you all, this is how you kind of have that David versus Goliath piece because the other companies don't necessarily put the same things out to the same extent they have their own version of it. Like, I know that one of the major DSPs put out a report a couple of weeks ago about some of their stats, and we always see those things. But I think that it's a little bit tougher for the companies that aren't as forward about supporting independent artists are really trying to be that advocate when their role is much more to serve and be their, you know, their main customers than major record labels versus your main customer is the artist. So it's a very different dynamic.David Ponte 28:03That's a very nice way to put it, you can probably frame it in a way that sounds much more nefarious and evil. But listen, if another company is helping artists succeed, we are not going to be, have any problem with that. That's ultimately what we want. That's why we're agnostic. You know, if an artist has success and one of our competitors, I will never say don't do them, or our competitors might say that about us, right. But ultimately, we want them to become successful. Because, you know, for example, like the artist I was talking about what lotto she just came out with are really good. Um, she performed at one of our shows, you know, a couple of years before the pandemic. And you know, we had her come by our studio, we created content with her when really, she was not very well known outside of Atlanta. And now she's an amazing, like, a huge star was a huge hit album. And she came back and she did one of our fine-tunes, which is one of our video content series. And she came back and she did that for us, her, and her fans. And if we didn't have that we didn't establish that trust with her and her team, you know, multiple years ago, then she would have just not came by when she was in New York. So, you know, I think when you put out a good energy, it comes back to you, we really believe in that. So the other companies that might have an interest in not having artists be educated, unfortunately, there probably would not want that, because then they might not get the best type of deal when they're working with those artists. And unfortunately, that's how the music industry is. And we're hoping to change that as much as we can.Dan Runcie 29:34Are there ever any challenges that you do? Face, just given the position that you're in? Of course, I mean, on one hand, I do look at what you're doing very different than some of the major streaming or some of the much larger streaming services, but they in many ways are still offering a service and you know, at a much larger scale, but how does that impact your strategy or your goals for what you're doing? Are there any regular challenges that their presence creates, or that you know, you all have, as you know, your role in the, as a streaming platform?David Ponte 30:09We do have many challenges, it's tough, part of the challenges stem from just growing, you know, just as any business grows, you know, more employees, you know, more money, more problems, kind of thing. I think we want to expand even more globally, one of our focuses, right, so as the CMO, you know, me and the other executives figure out are what, what are we focused on, we have to kind of think of things in that way, where it's like, alright, let's focus on what we're going to do for the first half of 22. One of them is how are we going to bring African music to the rest of the world, and particularly to the diaspora in the US, right? So we're really big in Africa, where we help sort of paved the way for a lot of Afro beats music to be popular in the UK and in the US. So we think we want to expand this music elsewhere to other places where people might want, you know, whether you're a part of the diaspora, or whether you're just someone who might like the Afrobeat vibe, which is most people, you know, in Europe, you know, Belgium, Germany, you know, we're looking to get into Punjabi music, and they have a large diaspora in the US, Canada, UK. So the challenge is having to do all these deals with all these labels, and get them to allow us to get licenses around the world, and especially in Africa, where we have such a large user base, and we have a lot of leverage because we are very big there. So, you know, we want to get the best deals we can. And it's a tough deal. Doing licensing deals with labels is very, very tough. It takes our team a lot of time, it doesn't move quickly. As I mentioned earlier, we're used to moving quick and being nimble. And then when we work with large companies, it takes a while. So that's a challenge for me being the curator, and the marketer is trying to figure out, you know, how can I get these artists to get more fans getting more fans means I need their music to be available in more regions. So that's certainly a challenge. I think another challenge is just how can we maintain our differentiation? What are our competitive advantages? You know, a lot of times, you know, we're working with to combat these other companies, they have such large budgets and resources. And, you know, we have to fight the urge to try and follow them instead, to create our own path or own blue ocean, which was a book that came out years ago I read that made a big impact on is how can I, you know, create our own blue ocean. And, as opposed to following and trying to catch up, let's have them chase us instead. And we've had some success doing that a lot of the big streaming services have copied us, and a lot of the things that we've done, which is flattering, but annoying, too. So how can we maintain our value proposition, but really fortify it, as opposed to saying, We got to do more things like they're doing because they have so many users, so it must work. Let's do what they're doing. So that's a challenge is to try and say, All right, let's How can we accomplish it a different way? How can we keep this person engaged in the app in a different way? So part of that is things like artist’s guides, orders, and Audiomack World in general, which is sort of a, which is where the artists guide is going to be part of the Audiomack World, which is essentially a blog interview site. That's any streaming service, right? streaming services, utility, you have songs in there, you go to the live streaming service, the same songs are in there. There's not much difference between Spotify and Apple Music, you know, besides some UI, maybe podcasts. But you know, Audiomack World is an entire site that you could read and learn and discover artists without just relying on a playlist algorithm to put it in front of you at the right time. We have this other way, really the old way, because we come out of the blog era. No, we're born out of the blog era. So that was how you discovered music at the end of the arts in the beginning part of the 10s. And we tried to take what was special about that, where you learned to read about artists, and you learned about them through interviews and stuff like that on blogs, and we're taking that and we put that in the utility of the streaming service. So we're trying to just build that out and really showcase our the artists that use us in a different way than other streaming services.Dan Runcie 34:15Right, and that point to about them copying you, that's, you know, not surprising at all because I think to your point, you're doing unique things, you're able to move a bit more nimbly, and I'm sure you likely also get acquisition offers, especially in this climate that we're in now. And if you're just like thinking about, you know, where things are, I think even things in terms of the future, whether it's, you know, web three or the metaverse, there's opportunities that you all like we have to be able to make moves in those areas if that's something that's on your roadmap, a bit easier than some of the others because they are larger companies, and it's just tougher for them to pivot in that type of way.David Ponte 34:55Yeah, Web 3.0 is interesting. Everyone likes to talk about web three. It's changing the Internet as we know it, slowly, but surely, a lot of it is hype. You know, there's some music streaming services that are Web 3.0 and some up cool ideas, and I like them. And then other ones are probably scams that people are gonna lose a lot of money on, I think one of them, 80% of the tokens are owned by one person. So it's, whatever you see something like that, you have to question, you know, the actual motives of that one person there. No, and they've already done a lot of shady things that I will get into. But other Web 3.0 music companies are doing cool things, and we look at that we go, we might be able to do something like that. Again, if it adds value to artists, it could put money in artists' pockets, and it's like legitimately and the value exchange between the fan and the artist is equal, then you're damn right, we're gonna look into doing that. There's some awesome, exciting things we're looking at, in terms of, again, this concept of supporters, how can we create a real-life experience from something that was born out of the app, if you buy a badge, a supporters badge, maybe that's an NFT, maybe that NFT gets you access into a shop, or it gets you access into, you know, sell merch, or something like that? You know, can you accomplish those things without having to, you know, waste a lot of electricity, maybe, but maybe there's a way to do it cheap. It could be on the blockchain, you know, you could validate the token that someone has or the NFT that they have, and then provide, you know, that gets some access into something or, you know, helps create a community around. I think a lot of the appeal of web three is that it's a community in a discord. Right? All the big ones are in a Discord. You know, people want to be part of a group of like-minded individuals. So it's maybe not because of the blockchain, but because you're in a community, right? So we're trying to think about, how can we accomplish things with does web three, make it more efficient, cheaper, easier, more lucrative than we would employ that, but we're not going to do it just for the press, which some companies are are doing and watch.Dan Runcie 37:05Something that I thought about, I remember thinking about this back when I had the conversation with Charlie, and he was first explaining the idea behind supporters is this is a concept that other platforms outside of music have done on the blockchain, but you aren't really shown that, okay, you could still have these dynamics off of it. And I'm not going to get into the whole discussion of if you could do something on versus off-chain, that and you still do it on-chain. But I do think that it highlights that a, if you're going to do something in this space, it should really be either an additive in a way that you're leveraging something that you didn't have like I think there's a very easy connection of thinking of what could a token look like for a supporter of a particular artist like Iran? Like I think there's plenty of things there. But does that enable you to do something that you couldn't currently already do through the current audio Max supporters? Or does allow you to do it better or more efficiently or something to build to the future? I think, I mean, I could imagine that that's the thought process, as opposed to just kind of, oh, let's do a web three thing. And then let's do that. But I've seen it, you know, different pitch decks and all these things. And it's like, I don't know if that's quite the way to do it, but I feel like, for you all, there's a clear through-line there.David Ponte 38:22Yeah, there is. And that was well said, I concur with what you just said, you know, there's, do it to add value. Don't do it for the like dog and pony show part of it, where it's like, we're on-trend. We're doing all this Web 3.0. Now we're worth more, you know, one of the things you know, our supporter's badge, you know what I like it if like if you bought a supporters badge, it was actually an NFT. And we minted it for you. And then you could keep that, or you could sell that or trade that. That would be great. I mean, there's obviously a ton of work involved with that. One of the things that I think a lot of companies are wrestling with is that you know, Web 3.0 is inherently decentralized, right? Businesses are not decentralized, they are centralized. And you want to keep it centralized because that's how you control things. And that's ultimately how you're going to make money. But if you put it on the blockchain, and it's decentralized, you don't control it anymore. And that can be a bad thing, can be a good thing, but could be a bad thing, too. And there's risk involved with that. And obviously, companies are about mitigating risk. So I do think there's a couple of things we're looking at that could be really interested in adding a lot of value to artists, you know, being able to scan and an NFT to get into a community. Right? If you buy a supporter's badge, you are now eligible to be messaged by that artist. So like Wiz Khalifa did, he did, did a supporters campaign, people supported him, and he gave them you know, I forgot the amount I think 25% or 20% off of March. So he sent them a message. Thanks for being a supporter. You know, I'm really grateful and you know, by I just came out with a new capsule and you get 20% off so stuff like that, you know, can you then take your NFT or somehow prove that you have that as opposed to putting in a code? You show them that or scan that or do something? There's a lot of potential for sure.Dan Runcie 40:11Yeah, I think so if we're just thinking about separating the noise from the opportunity, I think there's still a lot of room to grow with that for sure. But I think we'll get there. I mean, like I've used as an analogy before, I think we're very much still in this, like pets.com era of things. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But that means that there is some grift, there's some good, and I still think we're kind of in this period, where the real champions of this era are still, you know, may still yet to emerge. Some of them may have already started. But we'll see. It's an exciting time for sure. But we get to the tail end. And before we let you go, I know you shared a few things that you already have in store and a few things that you have coming up. But is there anything else coming up soon for Audiomack that you want to plug in or let the tribal audience know about?David Ponte 40:59I mentioned how we're going to, one of our goals is in focuses, is to bring Afro beats to America. And we've done this to some degree, we want to keep doing it. You know, all of us here are just such big fans of that type of music and that wave, you know, whether it be Burna Boy, David, Joeboy, Fireboy, Tiwa Savage, Yemi Alade, there's just so many great artists and also from South Africa, we're really big fans of Amapiano and sort of the South African dance music scene. So we want to bring that type of dance music to the US and be at the forefront of that. So there could be a tour coming up with a few artists that are going to be coming maybe to a city near you. Or maybe if you buy a supporter’s badge for these artists, you'll get certain types of access, maybe you get to meet the artist. So we're trying to take what was cool about supporters and about Audionmack and the app, and then turn that into real-life things in the real experiences that are turned into just unforgettable memories for that fan. And great revenue opportunities for that artist. So stay tuned.Dan Runcie 42:04That's awesome. Good stuff. I'm excited for you guys. This will be good. We'll definitely keep in touch with you and stay in lock with what Audiomack is doing. But Dave, thanks for coming on. It's been a pleasure.David Ponte 42:14Thanks for having me, Dan, and it's, I love what you're doing. I'm the one who puts the podcast on our trending section on audiomack and helps you get more fans like that. So please keep uploading, keep helping people, learn about the music business and the music industry, and I'm thrilled to be on and can't wait to see how my voice sounds when I listen to it later.Dan Runcie 42:37No, I appreciate that. No. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Today I’m joined by Brandon McEachern and Marcus Allen, the co-founders of Broccoli City. The music festival makes its return to Washington D.C. on May 7-8 with a stacked lineup that includes Gunna, Summer Walker, Wale, and plenty more stars from the world of hip-hop and R&B. The black-owned promotion had not one, but two events canceled in the past two years. During the forced downtime, festival co-founders Marcus Allen and Brandon McEachern made a conscious decision to not just return for 2022, but come back better than ever. Specifically, the two wanted to leverage the Broccoli City platform to create black change. Since starting in 2013, the festival has always catered to black people first and foremost. But in 2022, it’s aiming to give its fans better resources well beyond the music grounds. The duo is accomplishing that in the form of an expo that’ll feature job/internship opportunities, health/wellness tools, financial support for small businesses, and forums on criminal justice issues, amongst other things. The expo is one component of what the festival organizers are calling BLK Change Weekend. The world and the music festival industry have transformed plenty since Broccoli City’s last show in 2019. However, Brandon and Marcus are not just changing with the times — they’re creating it with new initiatives too. Here’s what we covered in this episode of the Trapital podcast: [0:00] Broccoli City Returns For 2022[3:10] The Optics Of Bringing Back Broccoli City After Two Years Of Cancellation [6:34] Artists Charging More For One-Off Festival Than Tour Event [12:25] Managing Egos When Creating Festival Flyers [14:31] Changing Nature Of Agents With Talents[19:05] Broccoli City’s Biggest Advantage Over Other Festivals[23:15] Measuring Success For The Festival[25:25] Anticipating Whether An Event Will Succeed Or Won’t [27:15] How Loyal Are Customers To Certain Festivals? [29:01] Ongoing Challenges Of Being Black Execs In Music Festival Scene[31:15] Influence Of The Live Nation Partnership [34:47] Lining Up The Festival With BLK Change Weekend[41:39] What’s In Store For The 2022 Event?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Marcus Allen, Brandon McEachern This week’s sponsor is ​1-800-NUMBER, a creative agency that produces iconic moments for brand and artists. The studio has collaborated with Lil' Uzi Vert, Future, Isaiah Rashad, 24KGoldn, Nike, Sony, Universal Music Group, TDE, and more. Want to hear how 1-800-NUMBER can help your next project? Book a free 30-min intro chat. Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. ______TranscriptionMarcus Allen 00:00Ain't no better feeling to know coming into the event is going down like that, feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop in in the morning of the festival that is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time, and those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we may have some mornings and then feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win.Dan Runcie 00:40Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Brandon McKay Hearn and Marcus Allen. They're the founders of Broccoli City. It's a two-day music festival that's based in DC that has headliners, Annie Lenox, Summer Walker, they have Lil Durk, Gunna, and great lineup of some of the biggest names in hip hop and R&B. This festival is focused on celebrating Black culture more broadly with the entire weekend they have planned with the BLK change weekend, they have a 5K. And they have other community events that really speak to maybe the topics that be branded and Mark is talking about on this episode, we talk about what it was like for them to get this festival off the ground, given some of the challenges the past two years and how COVID set them back. We also talked about some of the challenges dealing with particular artists. Some of you may remember, there was a pretty public complaint from Wale. He was one of the artists that was frustrated, but they were able to navigate some things with him. So we talked about what it's like dealing with artists, some of their pushback, but also we talked a little bit about the broader Asia landscape. If you've been following Trapital, you know, I've talked about examples of the NBA, where you have an agent like a Rich Paul and Klutch Sports and the influence that they've had making things happen for their stars, while the same thing happens in the music industry with some of these powerful agents that are trying to convince themselves and others that their stars deserve to have headlining spots everywhere. So we talked a little bit about that. We also talked about what it's like for black music festival promoters, and how they are not just pushing this, but also some of the challenges they may have in this industry. We also talked about some of the other economics some of the decisions and what Brandon and Marcus are most excited for and how all that stays afloat. If you are interested at all in the music festival space, what it takes to put one on this is definitely the conversation for you. It was a great chat, it was great to reconnect with them both. Here's my chat with Brandon and Marcus. All right, we got Brandon, Marcus co-founders of broccoli city, y'all are back. COVID set y'all back for a couple of years via y'all like “Nah, we're gonna be here. We're gonna make this happen.” So how does it feel?Brandon McEachern 03:10Man, it feels good. It feels good to be back. Happy that the world is opening up. You know, for a minute, dead. Damn, we thought that we was gonna be able to come back for 2021. But you know, COVID and the variant had a different plan in mind. You know what I mean? So, so that's what we're happy. We're back this year, though. 2020 to two days. You know, we outside so it's a good look.Dan Runcie 03:32Yeah, I mean, I feel like it must have been stressful because 2021, once everyone got vaccinated, I'm sure you probably thought the rest of the year was green light, right? Go Let's go. But no, Mari I came through with that touch.Brandon McEachern 03:46And a couple other festivals got off. You know what I mean? So that was the thing to kind of had to like, dang, you know, like Lollapalooza, the biggest festival, one of the best festivals out, shout out to them. They actually, “Oh, rolling loud.” Got to do this. Shout out to Matt Tyree like saying, “Yeah, we just got the short end of the stick on that side. But it's all good.”Marcus Allen 04:04Yeah, I mean, I think the other part too, is is that of the festivals that got off, we were the only ones that was focusing in on people of color, right? And so there was a certain optic that was in the air that was like, as our people was the most effective. It was a decision like, you know, do we put all of our people in jeopardy, right? Do we create a big spreader event? And will the world accept this having a big spreader of like, how he makes up somebody else? And like Brandon and I've just decided it just weren't worth it. It wasn't worth the risk on anybody's part.Dan Runcie 04:33So walk me through the steps of being able to put this back on right because I'm sure some of those same questions you're talking about Marcus some of that trade off? Are people going to be comfortable if there's a super spreader event when we're putting this on? What was that decision process like?Brandon McEachern 04:47Man so um, I think it number one it was we decided we're gonna push through like we came in at ‘22 saying it's gonna take the world to pretty much be shut down for us not to come back right so I think that was number one. We got on the same page with our partners at Live Nation just in terms of what their plan was for COVID one to 22. And once they gave us the “Hey, listen, we're all full steam ahead. We support and you guys fully. We were locked in.” Brandon, everybody affiliated and connected says Book and talent started booking talent. Man probably back in what November. And it took probably longer than it ever took us to book talent because so many shows were rescheduled for 22. So many people wanted to get back on tour, venues were booked and double booked. And so this year was everything about this year was very much different than what we ever ever had.Dan Runcie 05:41And on the side of trying to put the talent you mentioned, it took much longer than ever, what were some of those conversations, like, because I'm sure you had interest but was there more hesitancy because of their own discomfort about COVID or was it just their own uncertainty about their schedules? What was that like?Brandon McEachern 05:58I think that the COVID, the COVID side of it wasn't necessarily the conversation. It was more so the busy runway, like everybody knew that everybody was coming back. So you may want to book artists, but they got to a four or five-city tour that they're trying to push out, you know what I mean? So at the time, they not necessarily thinking about a festival, they trying to do their own, you know, single tour, so it was just having those conversations with agents. And obviously management as well say, hey, you know, this could be a part of your tour day, or whatever the case may be, but I think it was yet again, it really was just a runway, it was just so packed. It was so bad.Dan Runcie 06:34That makes sense. And I'm curious, what was it like from the price perspective? Because when you're dealing with agents when you're dealing with folks, whether it's the artist or even the venue's like where people item or what was there where they try to be like Fat Joe with the yesterday's price is not today's price. Brandon McEachern 06:50Yesterday's price, today's price you got to meet. So I don't know if everybody was just trying to get a bread back from what they had last previously. You don't I mean, those years that we were all, but yeah, prices have definitely went up like the game is crazy, especially when you say that F word. You know, I mean, as soon as you say festival, it changes the dichotomy of the other conversation you didn't mean.Marcus Allen 07:11Agents was talking about inflation is like what was inflated in the price of people themselves? Like what I don't get, how could there be inflation connected with booking talent? Brandon McEachern 07:20You know, is it true? Is it true? You know, that's the cost of playdough, D. That's what you got to do. You know what I mean? That's the cost to play in this game. You know what I'm saying? It's a big cost to so tell my young festival people about to get into this festival game. Just know, these cats is crazy out here.Dan Runcie 07:36You can you talk a bit more about that PC mention where once you make good Festival, the prices go up, or people's eyes light up, you're freaked out, like why is that? And how much higher are we talking?Brandon McEachern 07:48Yeah. Now granted, all this stuff has happened like pre-Marcus and Brandon, right? Like we are, I would say we were Allen Iverson before he got into organized ball. You know what I mean? Like, that was us for the longest time. We were independent. I mean, we actually still kind of are independent. But a club show that's different than you know, than a festival day. You know what I mean? A one-off is different yet again, from a festival date. Because I think personally, they start looking at your pockets too.Marcus Allen  08:16Well, you know, what it is, is the most festivals, in a lot of cases, while there is a capacity, once you reach capacity, that number’s so big. That is crazy, right? So they're thinking about hard cap. So you go play a film, or I can say specifically, we're going to sell 1,500 tickets. When you’re in a festival ground, that's 100,000 square feet, I might be able to sell 20,000 I might be able to sell 50,000 So they plan for that margin, is he gonna sell 20? Or is he gonna sell 50 they trying to get money like you're gonna pay for 50? You know, I'm saying even if you know, you only got to sell to 20. But they ain't trying to hear that.Dan Runcie 08:52That's real. Because even some of these tours that take place in a theaters or outside venues, there's still a capacity there. But I think people see the flexibility there. But then people obviously see when there's too much flexibility. And there's there could be logistical issues and things like that. The other piece that is a factor of festivals that I would assume is probably part of it, too, is because it's more of a one-off event as opposed to touring. People want to up the price for that event, right. It's almost like paying someone a per diem rate even though that per diem rate would never be their salary for if you normalize it out over a set period, right?Brandon McEachern 09:29I like the way you broke that down, D. Yeah, yeah, we get and they are, they're in demand. So they can say what I mean, if you got a good album, if you pop in, you can kind of say whatever, you know, and to be honest, a lot of promoters have paid these artists that hefty hefty bag. So they like yo I'm not going back regardless of what your festival may mean to the community or whatever the case may be, you know, so get again you get you got to pay to play.Marcus Allen 09:56And then the other part of that too is is that in the festival scene is so competitive with the big boys, that they need certain names to be able to headline those festivals. And so they really created a housing bubble. That's really what we end right now. Right? There's literally a bubble. And for only way for it to burst is that as a collective, the Live Nations, the AGs, they got to just simply say to the agents, nah, we not paying it no more, but they keep paying it. They keep paying it. Every time when an agent come with a wild number, somebody is paying it. So it's really in the body…Brandon McEachern 10:34you make this clear that we're not anti paying people what they were, you know, I mean, let me just say that right now. Like, it's all good, we get it, you know what I mean? Your talents that God gave you that gift, you know, I just got through listening to you, whatever the case may be, I know what this money is doing for your family. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, a lot of these artists are getting a lot of a bread from shows, you know, me, I don't know what the streaming stuff is, and all that. But we do understand that these festivals are a bulk of a lot of these artists’ income or whatever the case may be. So we definitely adhere to that. And we pay all of our artists very well. You know what I mean? I don't think nobody would say Oh, broccoli city shortchanged us or anything of that nature, never at all. Never. Dan Runcie 11:16That housing market analogy, I think makes perfect sense, right? Because we're seated now across the America, you have people with well-paying jobs do their thing. And then someone else giving out $100,000 above asking price cash off to go buy…Brandon McEachern 11:30you in the bay, you know what it is?Dan Runcie 11:32Exactly, exactly. And it's like, I'm sure you probably see that well, where it's like, even if you may not think and artists market rate, is it more than what you're willing to give? Not like you said not they're trying to shortchange everyone, but there's a market for everyone, for sure. But then, if another festival just is willing to put everything behind it, that is the market and then it's like, alright, well, you know, even if I may not agree with where that is, someone is willing to pay that price. So it does reset things. So I'm sure that's probably difficult to some perspective to deal with. But I think another thing too, and maybe part of this is navigating artist’ emotions, or artist feelings is Ivan here. And more recently, there's some artists that have started to complain about how be their David's on that music festival poster or what font size they have and stuff like that. How much do y'all deal with that? Or how much did you deal with that either past years, or this year was brought. Brandon McEachern  12:25Man, we've actually never dealt with it before until this year, who dealt with it with somebody and much respect to that somebody as well. But you know, honestly, and it's funny, because he had, again, these conversations weren't had as much as they were had this year, just in terms of the billing placement. And I don't know yet again, if that was something that happened during COVID. And folks was like, hey, you know, when I come back into this game, I want to make sure my joint is bigger than everybody's name, whatever the case may be. But it's actually something that's done when we put the offer out, and we're going back and forth with the agent, you know, they'll say things or management, they'll say, you know, top-line billing or, you know, I mean, like, they'll make it a conversation piece, you know, and usually, we match our eye on that. And it's not a problem that then sometimes the artists may not have been in communication with the management or the agent, and then certain things happen. And I don't know, Dan, if you could put a clip up of what we talked about. Yeah, you know, saying, but definitely, to that tea.Dan Runcie 13:25Yeah. And I think on that front, you know, I know you're not trying to put anybody on blast by any means. But I'm curious, though, is there some type of trade-off there where there's an artist that is frustrated about something, they're not communicating to you? They just want to put it out on Twitter, and then all of the blog aggregators that say, oh, you know, so and so is upset with Broccoli City, on one hand, it may be a negative thing, but on the other hand, now, you'll have a bunch of press out there. It's like, oh, yeah, well, Broccoli City's back this year, let me go check that out. What was that? Like? Did you notice a bump in sales after that.Brandon McEachern 13:59Sales, to be honest with you, the sales is already in a very good place. But just in terms of the attention to your point, we definitely got a lot of tension off that. And it became a conversation outside of just our particular event, which I thought was super dope did at least cause conversation between folks in the industry is that to the third, and I think I could have swore I seen somebody else actually just do this. Like yesterday, a particular artist just got mad, I think at Lollapalooza, something about something. So yeah, I mean, they're becoming really vocal about it. But we respect this. Marcus Allen 14:31The other thing too, Dan B's has a more personal connection with the agents, right. So just as an outside person, to my degree, right, because I don't really talk to him, but I get firsthand information. I see the emails, a part of it, I believe, is agents positioning themselves because the industry is changing. Right? COVID really made artists readdress how to teams in their business restructure right. You sit down, you've been paying people all this money, you had two years off a year and a half off, you now get a chance to really look at your books, you now get a chance to think about what are you paying people? What are they doing to be paid? And so I believe that folks tightened up their teams, which made a lot of agents on the outside. So obviously, cream rises, right. So the best agents are gonna still be the best agents, but they have to still show value, right? And we may all everybody may be still paying you agents gonna get you your fee, for the most part. So if you get in 100,000, you get 100,000. But if I'm an agent, and I say to you, Dan, listen, I'm gonna get you your bag. But I'm gonna also make sure you get topline billing on every festival. Now, you might know in your heart, hey, no topline billing. But if an agent tell me I can get you top line billing, and 200,000, who you gonna go with? That's the new game, right? It's about the value proposition of what the business is around these artists and how they're thinking about it and the value proposition of each part of their business. You know, I mean, what's the role of everybody? What are you bringing to the table for this fee? I'm paying you.Dan Runcie 16:13So this is fascinating, but it's not surprising. And I say that because I think about what we see in the NBA, right? There's been plenty polarizing opinions about the impact of Rich Paul and what he's been doing with Klutch Sports. And you can literally insert Ben Simmons in the example that you just brought up, right. But the NBA is a bit more transparent about these things. People either love or hate what Rich Paul is doing. And it's been very actively talked about. I don't know if people outside of the industry music know that dynamic as much with regards to people in music, like who the agent is, that is the equivalent of the Rich Paul or the Klutch Sports in that way, where the client goes there because the client is like, hey, my way or the highway, we are getting you to the Los Angeles Lakers. Watch me do this, right, like, but I'm sure that even though those things aren't public, that's the kind of shit that y'all handling. Yeah, on that front with the headliner piece. You talked about that as well. I know that you've had different headliners each year. But is that something where that does become at least a conversation where let's say you are dealing with a agent who had promised this to their artists, but you're like, hey, we either don't want to have that person as the headliner, or B, we already have it set. Does that, do those conversations stop? Is there continued negotiation there at least for you all, what is that piece of it been like?Brandon McEachern  17:42Usually Dan, if a person is a headliner, we want them as a headliner, like everybody know that they gonna be the headliner, you know, what I'm saying? Now, I will say for this year, was a little different, because we went the route of having two black women, headliners and Annie Lennox, and Summer Walker issue that we had with a particular somebody, it was a matter of who was more important in a particular area, particular city. It was longevity versus right now impact, right? He's like that kind of deal. You know, I mean, it's like I've been running this race longer. But in the short term, you're bigger.Dan Runcie 18:19Right. And I mentioned that piece is probably interesting, too. I know conversations we've had offline about this, just given that you are very much wanting to have and celebrate an event that is pushing or promoting black music for black people, and that it doesn't necessarily always 100% line up with festivals that are hip hop festivals that may be happening, although the artists themselves may be black. They aren't necessarily selling or having guests there, or attendees who are black. I think we've seen plenty of examples of that. How does that dynamic and curation shape not just who you reach out to for headliners and others, but also how you think that shapes the makeup and the target audience for the festival?Brandon McEachern  19:05I mean, I think that I think we don't necessarily go for what's trendy, if that makes sense in terms on the booking side, because we actually do, we do know the culture, right? So if you look at Broccoli sitting in 2016, you know, we had Anderson Paak, you know what I mean? Like if you look at what was that March 2015. You know, we had Kaytranada you know what I mean? And this is yet again years before they become who they become because one of the things that we try to make sure that we do is we listen to the streets, listen to Little Sisters, listen to nieces, listen to… Marcus Allen 19:38Even better, go look at the 2020 Grammys, and then go look at the 2020 Brockton city festival lineup that got canceled.Brandon McEachern  19:46Yeah, you know, LS who does a cat was you know what I mean? We are a new dozer was and then as soon as I'm not gonna say as soon as we booked her, but you know, everybody's starting to see her value. But we saw that way back I heard the streets Definitely like our rules. I knew what time it was with that young lady. And I think that that's one of the things that broccoli city does a hell of a job at, you know, is just really listening and finding that talent early and being able to give them a shot before everybody kind of hops on the bandwagon of that particular person.Dan Runcie 20:17So that piece there listening, finding the talent and having a year before the mainstream does, how was that piece of change? Because, you know, y'all been doing this for a few years now. In 2015 16, there was no Tiktok, and there wasn't some of these other things, but how has that played a factor in what you're noticing or what you're trying to pick up on where things are heading?Brandon McEachern  20:38I think it's still the same. I think it's still listening to the youth, you know what I mean? And we do know, when Tiktoks on that, you know, hours and hours and all that and we got money, you know, but he's at the festival. So I think it's just different avenues. At one point, it was all SoundCloud. You know what I mean? And that was kind of like your avenue to the music. So I think it's really just kind of just staying above and making sure that you got an ear to the streets and and not thinking that you know, at all, I think sometimes we get in a space where we think like, oh, we know this, that to the third like no, there's a 13, 14, 15, 16 year old, that's way cooler than you. And that's what you need to be listed.Marcus Allen 21:14I think also to some of it is time into right, because this is one thing to know the right artists, but if you book them off-season, you hustling backwards, right? So like in this example, we booked a lineup in 28, I guess in November, but we got Durk. Durk was out cycle in 2020. But right i mean 2021. But right now, he's crazy. It looked we looked crazy. I was on a call listening to be talked to somebody and they asked him be How did you know? How did you know it was Durk? Because if you look at the festivals Durk do we know only festival that marks a major name right? And so we look be looking like, you know, like he like he perfect for dictate the future. But it was really just understanding that he was coming. Right and just believing that Durk is a strong artist, and he's coming.Dan Runcie 22:02Yeah, I think so much of that insight is key, right? That is your job. At the end of the day, you're trying to have these you want to create the memories for fans to be like, oh, yeah, remember, they were on Durk early, we have that. Because then that obviously builds audience and the people that come back year after year after year on that front. And that is something that I've begun to, especially with a festival like yours. Do you have stats or anything on how many of the people are repeat purchasers or the folks that come back as opposed to be able to try to bring the new audience in? And what is that? What are those two groups look like? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.Marcus Allen 22:41We got a super high super high turnover rate. And I will say not only the super high turnover rate of people who attend the one tear connection to people who went right. So like, Oh, I saw my cousin went two years ago. Now I want to go right. And so I think it's very close to that as well. Like, it's almost like I wasn't ready for it three years ago. Now. I'm ready right now I get it.Dan Runcie 23:03Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. And for both y'all. What does success look like? So when you're looking back after the festival, of course, there's things like tickets and revenue, but from a high level, what does success look like?Brandon McEachern  23:15I mean, for me and get again, Marcus, I probably have a different answer because I connect to the world a little different than he does. But for me, it's the stories. It's the stories, obviously, bottom line stuff, right, we'll make sure we hit on my bottom line and chip was good financially, but it's the stories man, like when I hear the stories of be me and my home girl was out there. And did it look like to me that or another thing that is artists having a good time, too. You know what I mean? Like going back to Anderson Paak story, Fox story, I remember him saying that this was the first time he performed in front of this many black people, you know what I mean? Which I thought was crazy and dope at the same time. So it was those type of things for me, they've really claim success on myself. Marcus Allen 23:57And I love markets.Brandon McEachern 23:59Now, I mean, it ain't no better feeling like the money always got to be right. Let's just be clear, right? Like, I mean, that's what we're here for Dan, we're here to make money. But it ain't no better feeling to know, coming into the event is going down like that feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop it in the morning of the festival. That is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time. And those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we have some mornings that and feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win. So when you know it's gonna be a win, you really, really appreciate that you really appreciate it. And then once everybody get home safely, and you get back to that hotel, you can look at your partner in the eye and be like, Yeah, that's a great feeling, man. That's it is a great show.Dan Runcie 24:58That's special. I hear that. Can you talk more about that, actually. So those mornings that for past festivals where maybe you woke up and you weren't sure how it was going to go where you had less certainty? What was it about the planning or leading up to it that made you feel that? And then on the flip side, what is it about those festivals where you're like, Yes, this is going to be the best one yet? What was it about that feeling the morning that made you have that memory. Marcus Allen 25:25So this is wild, Dan, because, and Brandon, you might even feel differently about this. But after doing it for enough years, either the people want it or they don't, there's not much that you can do to market it to a sellout. You can make sure it stays in front of people, but when they want it, and if they don't, they don't. And so you spend four months, five months, just talking about what the flyer gonna look like the names gonna be on it. So it's like somebody dropping an album, you know, I'm saying and cats ain't messing with it. That's like, it's hard to accept it. Because you don't like so and slow and slow and slow. Just kidding me, right? And you like, man, we go put these marketing plans together, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. But then you get to the point where you realize they just ain't messing with it. They just ain't messing with it. And so it's like, you know, when you see somebody drop an album, they sell 100,000, the first week, and the second week, they sold 5,000 10,000. Because that nobody wanted to tell nobody, people wasn't talking about it. And so it just dies off.Dan Runcie 26:25Hmm, that makes sense. Brandon, anything you want to add?Brandon McEachern 26:28No, I think he hit it right on the head. You gotta mean like, you put a lot of time and effort in this thing. But they don't want it. They don't want it. You got to eat that. You got to eat. Dan Runcie 26:39it's fascinating. Because obviously, so much of that is dependent on the line of that you have and how people are feeling about the lineup. And I'm sure this affects every festival people buy tickets because they want to see them. But I'm sure you probably have people that will go to Broccoli City regardless because they just enjoy the vibe of it. And in your opinion, do you think any festival in the country has that benefit where it is if they have whoever is the headliner, just because it's that name? And just because it's that vibe, they will have a dedicated audience or do you think this is something that every festival promoter has to navigate?Brandon McEachern 27:15I mean, I personally think that there are some festivals out there that just have that right like yet again, the Lollapalooza the world, possibly even like the bottle rocks, you know what I'm saying? Like, and if you notice, I'm not naming any, any urban land festivals, you don't say black land festivals, I would love to see more of that within our communities, in all honesty, like, you know, just kind of loyal to the work that you know, your people are putting in to kind of put something together but you know, that's you just cry. You know, I mean, you preaching to the choir at that point. Right. So it is what it is. But I do think that there are some staple brands, like I said, the Lollapalooza of the world, BottleRock, Marc, I'm pretty sure you got some. Marcus Allen 27:54Maybe in terms of black maybe, Only Essence. Oh, yeah, that's for sure. I think it's probably Only Essence that I would say from a black perspective, actually has real draw.Brandon McEachern 28:05Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's something that we working on, right. Like you want to keep giving people you know, it's like, man, we've been doing this for 10 years. Are you gonna trust us? At some point? You know what I mean? So, yeah, but it's just an interesting thing, Dan, just in terms of the urban saw.Dan Runcie 28:18Yeah, definitely. I feel like essence definitely has that annual Black homecoming vibe to it, that makes it the search for the draw it is. And I think for you, what a lot of your peers who are also black festival promoters in urban music are also in that same boat wanting to build that up as well. And, Brad, I know, we talked a little bit about this, but what has it been like from your perspective? Because obviously, you see that so much of the music from this community is what is making these festivals that money, but you as a both the all as black promoters in this space are likely still experiencing challenges pushing so much of this even though it is your music that is making this entire ecosystem what it is, Brandon McEachern 29:01Yeah, no, I mean, it's really just a trip. And at the end of the day, you know, shout out to folks like you, right, that give us somewhat of a platform to kind of, you know, just speak so people just kind of know what we got, I don't even think that people leaving, they don't even think about it, you know, like, maybe those who are in kind of a creative space. Think about it, but I know there's been people who have, you know, man talk shit to me or something at some point, right? But then they start planning something big, and they'll text me like, you know what, be my bad bro. My bad man cuz now I see what you were going through. When I thought that it was just kind of a walleye kind of thing. You know what I'm saying? But it takes a lot of hard work. And it's interesting yet again, going back to dealing with agents from our side on the urban side, and how they may treat me versus how they may treat you know, Jordan and those folks from governors ball you don't I mean, like the tone of the voice. You know, we talked about this a little bit earlier. They're not saying they talk to you crazy, but I don't have some wild conversations with some of these agents. You got to me even going back to the artists, right, and our particular artists that we were speaking of my question is, I wonder what the comrade, I wonder, would he have done that on another festival? You get what I'm saying? Do you feel like you can do that? Because we're so close in terms of camaraderie. It's like, you know how your friends treat you versus somebody who don't know you treat you if that makes sense. Dan Runcie 30:24It's a fair question, right? Like, because I'm sure you probably wondered, oh, would they have done that if it was Coachella, one and two, how would people respond? If they were trying to say something about? Yeah, on festival like Coachella, Brandon McEachern 30:39It may be as forgiving. I suppose you know what I mean? Or try to get to the bottom of the issue or just snip you. You know, I think we saw that last year, or the year before last with artists saying a certain thing and every festival followed suit, and snip snip,Dan Runcie 30:54right. It doesn't take much for Word to travel and people to just see how the dynamic is. I know one of the changes for you over the years with this festival has been the partnership with Live Nation urban and what you've been able to do with them. How has it been working with them? And what influence have they had for you all in the more recent years with the festival?Brandon McEachern 31:13More, more, want to take that? Marcus Allen 31:15Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think the number one thing that they've been able to do is take some of the financial risk off of Brandon and I to be able to operate the festival in much more of a business and not a annual, write with every year, we got to figure out how to get back in position to raise capital to find an investor to you know, me, it's just like a consistent cycle. You can't grow a brand, having to do that every single year, because you're starting from scratch every time. Right. And when you're doing that one loss is devastated. You know, me as devastated and as independent. Where, I mean, you think they think they've been in a Lollapalooza been going on for 25, 40, 30 years, you know, I mean, you think they don't want every year, you know, I'm saying like, it's an ebb and flow, like you're gonna lose some years. And so that's what Live Nation gives you the ability to do is have some years to just be normal, right? And not make $2 million at the gate, right? Like, just be normal. Like, yo, we lost money this time. Alright, we're gonna be back next year, and we know we gonna be back. So that's huge.Brandon McEachern 32:21And I would say, you know, shout out to our partner, Shan Ji, who is, you know, who's been in the game, you know what I mean? And it's rare that you meet, you know, other people that's been through what you've been through, you know, what I mean? So just big shout out to him and his vision and everything that he's built…Marcus Allen 32:35And let us working to. He lay his work, yeah, let me let us work he don't play to you know, micromanage, he let us work. He wants to see stuff when it goes out. He want to make sure he got some merch, you know, I mean, he want to know who the lineup is he want to help add value in terms of setting the right talent, you know, I mean, he want to make it easy for us, and use his experience, you know, to make it easier for us, you know, as we navigate through this whole thing,Brandon McEachern 32:59on top of relationships as well, because yet again, this industry is superduper small and like a Dan, right? Like, we know, Dan already from from from back in the day a little bit, even though it was like a year, and I'm trying to go but just imagine Sean and the relationships that he built over the years and to be able to introduce markets into markets and nine to different folds that, you know, makes sense that he has, you know, strong relationships with and then us doing the same, because his folks on the street is different events that he don't know about that maybe we introduced him to. So it's been a fantastic relationship.Dan Runcie 33:31Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Because at the end of the day, most festivals, even the ones that are household names today lose money in the first few years. So when you're starting from scratch, so much of it depends on who you could get money from investors, how you can get secured, you know, deals in place for all of these things. And unfortunately, it can be harder for folks that look like you to be able to do that here and in this country, right. So when you look at that being able to have the support of a company that has gone through to the fact that they have a division geared towards this, the partnership makes perfect sense. It gives you all the room to do what you could do to build this up, because you know that something is here. And I think that if we just let's say it like it wasn't there, if we just let the festivals that can maintain get to where they are, then there's so much left as an opportunity or not even as an opportunity. There's so much left that isn't given the opportunity because of that. So it's one of those partnerships that I do think makes a ton of sense, at least from the outside for my perspective.Marcus Allen 34:31for sure. So shout out to Ellen, you for sure. Yeah. Dan Runcie 34:35The other thing too, with this year, you lined it up with the blockchain, we get that I know that was part of the promotional push for this. How has that shaped your event planning and what you hope is in store for this weekend?Brandon McEachern 34:47Yeah, I mean, we're kind of we've always kind of been on that. Right, Dan? So when we talk about when we talk about broccoli city as a whole, right, you know, to say that broccoli City is a music festival. It's kind of disrespectful, right? When you think about Everything that we have done leading up into this point like in 2017, US launching, you know, Broccoli cod, you know, like, I don't know, any other festivals that you can go to that you have a networking opportunity, a chance to maybe hear a Dan talk or hear Bosman St. John talk, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, no other festivals with that. And if I do, I know them after we started the whole conference outlook, right? And then when you think about a 5k, ruin, right, like, I don't know, any other festivals that's doing 5k. But I think they are something to do do that stuff now. But yet again, it was always a black chain weekend, we think about it, you know what I mean? And yet again, I know that we're one of the only festivals if you think about on a wide scale of them all that gears, the talent, gears, the experience, the host, the music, the all that geared with African Americans, black people of color in mind, first, you know what I'm saying? Like, our people aren't the afterthought, which I think is some of these other events. We may be the afterthought, you know, So yet again, with Blackshades weekend, and really just kind of putting that word out there, it really hasn't changed much of what we already have been doing. And honestly, I think it was important for us to put a name to it, though. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, Dan. And Marc, I don't know if you have any statements on that, please. Marcus Allen 36:15Yeah. Now just gonna say that it was important for us to say what it is right, like coming out of COVID, we made a conscious decision that we wanted to use our platform that are right. And at the core, what that meant was we wanted to create black change for black folks. We knew we had corporate partners, we knew we had different folks who've been looking to touch this demo with our sponsorship and partners have always been strong. But now it was time to say like, alright, well, you've been cutting broccoli city a check, how can we do a better job of providing resources opportunities to these attendees? Oh, you want a better platform to do? So you need an expo? Okay, we're going to add an expo to the conference. You know, I mean, like, Oh, you want to talk about health and wellness? Okay, we're gonna add another component to the five cake. Right. So I think, for us, it was always there. But we needed to be attentional going in between to about that.Brandon McEachern 37:09And to add on the Marcus's point, Dan, not afraid to say black, right. Like, I think a lot of us get to a certain level. And I even said it earlier, right? Like POC like people of color, like, you know, I mean, which is cool, don't get me wrong. But Marcus and I wasn't afraid to say Yo, we really want to do this for black folks. And I don't think it's nothing wrong with that at all. You know what I mean? Like there are specific festivals that may be geared toward the Hispanic consumer, which is completely fine. I don't mean, you'll see no black person there.Marcus Allen 37:37But I think the key about black the conversation around black chains is that for black chains to happen, it takes more than black people. Right? So let's be clear, right, like black chains happens internally with black people. But you need some white folks, some Spanish folks, some Asian folks to participate right? In some change happening. So this isn't necessarily just a black event. It's just that we focus in on creating change for black people. Dan Runcie 38:03That's an important distinction. And I think that to your point, right, there is a great opportunity to celebrate this and not be afraid to call it what it is and have that there are many festivals that hit different groups for that reason, but the fact that you all know your audience know the opportunity you're going to create and in the region that you're doing it it makes perfect sense.Marcus Allen 38:23Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what to think on that even if we check out if everybody checks out the quest love documentary to summer soul, and you know what I mean? Everybody didn't get us on that. But it's like, Yo, this shit going on right now too. So, come to broccoli city is see somewhere solid? Actually, there's well, you know,Dan Runcie 38:41exactly, exactly. Alright, well, before we let you go for the listeners, give us a sense of how you're feeling now going into it. Of course the festivals coming up and you talked a little bit about some of those years. You're feeling good some of those years you're not How are you feeling right now?Brandon McEachern 38:57feel great. I feel good. You know, say I'm pretty sure Marcus feels great too. I mean, it's lit up you know, I mean, everything from whiz kid to summer Walker to Tim's to Rico nasty to Young Jeezy to snow man like Don Oliver, like what the fuck are we talking about? You know what I mean? Like is split up 2121 dirt? I mean, come on mate, Gunner like come on man. And on top of that, there's so many things going on that weekend black chains weekend and it's in DC I'm feeling Mac you know what I mean? Like it's phenomenal. So I'm super excited. I don't know Mark got anything to add.Marcus Allen 39:31I feel super excited. It's funny because not that BS job is done. But the bulk of his core ship is on the front end. So now like he like do my job you know me, “What's up now” like so now it's like I'm all back to back production calls experience call venue calls and so speak.Brandon McEachern 39:52On that though it, me and Marc have had this conversation. It's one of the things that I respect about my partner so much is that Marc hates it when we go somewhere. We're at an event No, like, Oh, this is okay for black of it. You know what I mean? Like, and I love for you to just speak on how you trying to heighten our experience and how you know me, like how you heighten the experience. He's already heightened experience for other LNU properties as well.Marcus Allen 40:14Honestly, Dan made me you know what it is right? We met at probably one of the most immaculate fundraisers of person could go to, right? Like, let's be honest, right? Like, we saw some stuff right there front of us that was like, Oh, is this happening in real life, like, I gotta go back and watch the video to confirm, I'm watching this with my own eyes. And at the end of the day, like, there's a stigma out there that if you just have the talent, that's enough, and in a love, Coachella spin to $10 million little art, that's more than that's more than festivals hold talent budgets. But that's why to our conversation earlier, why they dropped that lineup with no names, and it'd be sold out. Because people know that there's an experience value associated with that brand. And a lot of our people aren't willing to invest that $10 million, because it may not come back to you year one, that's an amortized cost over 10 years, for you to see that value in that art to spending. And so I think that's what we're getting into now. Right. And that's what the partner show ln gives us the ability to do is to go spend big money on experience, right? And push partners to say, like, “Nah, you can't do that little 10 by 10 Cent,” na, na, if you want to be on site with us, you got to step it up. You got to get your agency's up, like you got to get it right.Brandon McEachern 41:39And we want to give that experience to our people. Yet again, if this is Black change weekend, it needs to be beautiful. We aren't a culture, we you know what I mean? So even if there's any sponsors, listen to this, any, you know what I mean? Like, get at us. So we can make this experience great, because these are the same people that make your products what it is, these are the same people that make whatever artist that is on top. It was Sinead good to Nika and Rahim that made that artists pot, period, period, you know what I mean? And those are the folks that go to broccoli city, you know what I mean? Even if we talk about ticket prices and things of that nature, Dan, like, come on, bro. We give him folks. 10, 12 phenomenal acts, and our prices ain't nowhere near anyway, I don't even want to get there. That's a whole nother conversation. And we've done that by choice because we want to make sure that we give our people the experience. I had a girl tell me one time, the, I never been to Disney World. But I've been to Broccoli City, though. And I appreciate you for that. You know what I mean? Because we the only festival that maybe she can afford, you know, so I don't know is this such a bigger conversation than what we can do in this 30 to 40 minutes, but it's a real thing. And yet again, I just commend I commend my partner Republican in front of the whole whoever listening, you know, to me for really sticking on that shit, like, not be like, we got to make sure this shit right, bro. And I respect that wholeheartedly because anybody can book artists, if you got the bread, you can go out there and get them. That's fine. You know, now I do hop through hoops to sit and do what I do, you know, I mean, to give myself a pat on the shoulder. But factors, in what way in terms of what we try to do for this experiences is key. And we just want our people to have a magnificent time. So anyway, shout out to that today’s experience.Dan Runcie 43:21So it's a perfect way to complement both your skill sets where you see the space. And yeah, I mean, Marc, I hear you be already has his work done. He could get excited about stuff. And I know you got a lot on your plate. But I think that you have it in store, you have the partners and like you said, you know, there's an opportunity here, we're no different than a company investing in a startup or investing in artists, many of these festivals did that, you know, level of support do and I think that's where it can happen, especially with something that has the proven audience that you all do, for sure.Marcus Allen 43:52For sure. Now, a lot have you got a ticket now even be in DC because we got these VIPs on the ice for you waiting when you get here?Dan Runcie 43:59For sure, John, appreciate y'all. Thank you.Brandon McEachern 44:02And yet again, Dan, thank you, D man for highlighting what's going on on this side. You know what I mean? From the Chitlin Circuit there right now, you know what I mean? Like, it's been a whole bunch of us pushing and curating our culture and making sure that that we are responsible for getting our artists out there and getting their music out there. You know, I mean, and yet again, I don't want to keep tooting my own horn. But I mean, we had to Willow and Jaden back in the day, you know, I'm saying like we had come over the salons isn't like, tattoos gotta stop. It's me. No, you know what I mean? All these cats that a lot of people were just taking note too, like, we've been pushing these folks out and not for any other reason. And they've been using their gifts, and we want to make sure that we use our platform to get their gifts to the world. You know if that makes sense. So it's a blessing. Appreciate you.Dan Runcie 44:50A 100%, 100%. Alright, then yeah, anyone else that is listening, you already know about the concert. Make sure go to the website. Y'all want to give a quick plug. Make sure that People listening nowhere to go check it out.Brandon McEachern 45:01Man go to BCfestival.com. Broccoli City. I'm pretty sure you heard of it. Your cousin heard of it, you know, so make sure you out there. Yeah, make sure you out there because you don't want to see them pitches. You don't want to be on Instagram that day you're not there. That's just not something you want to do.Marcus Allen 45:18For sure, man, appreciate you again. Damn it. It's love man. This is great. Just to connect with you. Big fan of the podcast. Stay on the Twitter. I'll be back to comment on some of your stuff. But I'd be like yeah, let me chill you know me some of them comments be crazy. But nice is love though. I really appreciate this man. I love the growth that you build in the USA with your platform it and the brand growth man stay down. Anything we could do, man you already know. Brandon McEachern 45:44And yet again, and I sorry, do you know me? I'm gonna go on a tangent, but we let go. But that's the ecosystem, right? Yeah. Right. Black Journalists, right? Black curated events, like we all you know what I mean? So we have to do a way better job black executives that you've interviewed before, black agents that you've interviewed before, we got to find a way to make it work, because they're finding out a way to make it work. In all due respect. You know what I mean? So we got to figure it out. But pretty say to Brother, I'm gonna get off my shoeDan Runcie 46:12For sure. No, that's a great note to end on. Appreciate you both man.Marcus Allen 46:17Appreciate you man.Dan Runcie 46:20If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

A lot of creators talk about owning their intellectual property and distribution, but co-hosts of the For Colored Nerds podcast — Eric Eddings and Brittany Luse — actually went and made it happen, by any means necessary. The two left the Spotify-owned Gimlet Media network in 2020, leaving behind The Nod show (and its IP) which they had built up since 2017. As “free agents”, the duo made ownership a mandate in its next podcast deal.Stitcher was happy to oblige, bringing the two together in a homecoming of sorts. Before Gimlet, Eric and Brittany began podcasting with Stitcher which included the first iteration of the For Colored Nerds podcast. Now it’s back in its second form — still with a heavy dose of discourse about the intersection of pop and Black culture, but now with a dash of personal opinions from the two on ongoing issues as they see it.For Colored Nerds is one example of how the media industry is transforming in real-time. While Eric and Brittany got what they wanted, it wasn’t easy. The two joined me on this episode of Trapital to discuss this laborious process that included lawyers and agents — two things most creators aren’t privy to. Here’s everything we discussed in this episode:[3:07] Why Choose Stitcher Over Other Networks? [5:52] Changing Landscape Of Creator Ownership[9:22] Biggest Barriers To Having A Fair Contract[11:31] Will Future Podcast Networks Embrace Creator Ownership?[18:23] How Does The Podcast Balance What Topics To Discuss On The Show?[22:10] What Makes Podcasting So Special[28:51] The Polarization Of Tyler Perry [37:06] The Perils Of An “Elitist” Mindset[42:28] Relationship With Present-Day Music Compared To Past Favorites[49:23] Knowing Your AudienceThis episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcastListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Brittany Luse, IG: @bmluse | Eric Eddings, Twitter: @eeddings | For Colored Nerds Podcast, IG & Twitter: @ForColoredNerds  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____Eric Eddings 00:00What the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility. Because so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory. Everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of podcasts or like on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day. There are different levels. Some people are having a podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their lives and into their brand or ecosystem.Dan Runcie 00:38Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.On today's episode, I'm joined by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings. They're the host of the podcast, For Colored Nerds, which peels back the layers of black culture. I've been following Brittany and Eric's work for a while now, back when they had their podcast on gimlet media, The Nod. And they also had the Quibi Show after that. And they recently relaunched their old podcast, For Colored Nerds. So we talked about that, we talked about the journey and how Brittany and Eric have been so open and transparent about podcast ownership and some of the back and forth challenges that have happened not just with them, but with other podcasters that ultimately what they hope to see in this industry in the future. We also talked a bit more about how they go about thinking of their content, some of the common themes that they'll discuss on the shows, and one of the things that they discuss, which is a topic I've often discussed on Trapital as well is Tyler Perry. If you've read through Apple, you know that I'm more so, talking about Tyler for what he's achieved from a business perspective, which I've always found inspiring and great. But on the content side, it's a little different, because I think many people do have some conflicting opinions about how he's gone about things that he put out, and, but also recognizing that there was an audience that Tyler has unapologetically been willing to serve, and what that means for him as a business leader, and how that obviously has led to his success. So we talked a lot about that. And we also talked more broadly about hip hop as well. Folks like us, who I think grew up in the 90s and 2000s, and may still resonate with so many of the artists from that era, how do we relate to current day hip hop? And is it our place to relate to some of the current artists? So we talk about that, and a whole lot more. Here's my chat with Brittany and Eric. All right, today, we got Brittany and Eric from the For Colored Nerds Podcast. I’ve been a big fan. I've been following their work for a while, and also their journey. And before we start, I do just want to say thank you to both of you, because I feel like you've been so open about so much in the podcasting space. And I think a lot of people learned a lot from that. So thank you both it’s much appreciated.Brittany Luse 03:00Thank you.Eric Eddings 03:01Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's been a wild ride in this industry. But it's been good. Dan Runcie 03:07Definitely. And I know for you that your journey has been well documented, you're back on the podcast that you had started years back with For Colored Nerds. And now you're with Stitcher, and I'd love to start there because I'm sure that you got hit up by a number of different outlets or networks that likely wanted to partner with y'all. What was it about stitcher that made you want to work with them?Eric Eddings 03:31Wow. I mean, I felt like there was a lot I mean. To your point, we did a bit of the tour, I guess you could say, in terms of meeting with tons of distributors, you know, after our Quibi show kind of wound down after, hell, after Quibi. Went down a rabbit...Brittany Luse 03:47It happens on the same day.Eric Eddings 03:50Yeah, exactly. But no, with Stitcher, I think there were a few things that lined up pretty quickly. They were the only ones who who started the conversation, knowing that we were coming in with a desire to own our show, which is funny, because as to your point before, like, we have been very open about like some of the conflicts that we you know, had around pursuing ownership in particular. And so I think like that changed the conversation in a way where we then, actually, could talk more freely and comfortably about what we wanted the show to be, you know, because again, there was not that fear of like, you know, will it be ours? And will we maybe have to make something different, you know, after the fact if we don't own and kind of control that so I think that was like one big piece of it. I'm curious Brittany, like what you would addBrittany Luse 04:37I mean, a big part of it, too, is like the team. I mean, one of the people that we got to you know, talk with coming into Stitcher when we were just sort of in the initial feeling each other out stage is someone who turned out to be the cousin of someone we met a few years ago and like hit it off with, Natalie Well who's amazing, she's literally just made us feel comfortable from like moment one. Also Peter Clowney, who is, Eric knows this, proper title. I feel terrible because I can't remember anyone's proper title. Because Eric works at Stitcher as an executive, and I am but a lowly, what's the word? I paid a vendor, I'm a vendor. And so I'm not always proven everything happens within a company. Peter Clowney, who is like I think the VP of content at Stitcher, he was the very first editor that I ever had, like podcast editor, like the very first edit. And it is like a term in podcasting, where the team will sit and listen, or be sent a version of an episode, and leave comments and share them with each other in order to make the episode better and get to that next draft. The first time I ever did that, was with Peter Clowney and that was 2015. So, you know, I have this full-circle moment when in 2021, he's the person who's really extending the offer for us to come and join Stitcher. That just felt really, right. Brittany Luse 05:52Also, you know, we first launched For Colored nerds with Stitcher, we have an incredible executive producer, Kameel Stanley, who is basically like a legend of public radio in St. Louis and is just a hell of an executive producer. She, I mean, she kept like, the first I think we had her for what, maybe three, four months, when we were first really ramping up, she kept things together, and she kept things moving. Yeah. And she was somebody who we had already, we've been interviewed by before, I think the previous year with regard to rights and ownership and IP and everything like that. She is just a fantastic journalist and just was such an amazing guide. So it was just so amazing to have this experience where we had so many sharp people who we had either met before had a relationship with before or had a meaningful link to coming in. And it just kind of made things feel a lot more familiar. And also to they were just fast. They're just fast. They were like, yeah, they followed up, they were fast. And they were, I don't know, I mean, I think in so many areas of life, like somebody like the person who's just eager to follow up with you and eager to form that connection or cement that relationship. That's usually the person that you want to go with.Dan Runcie 07:02That makes sense. Yeah, I hear the relationship side of it. I also hear the ownership side of it too. And especially with the way things are shifting now, sometimes it's still so shocking that it is still such a charged or controversial thing for whether it's podcasters writers or creators in any type of shape too, what, I mean, you're coming in, you have a base, you have plenty of leverage, like how is this still one of these discussions where they want 100% of the thing, and there's not even a discussion about shared or what that could look like. And I mean, it's not just, you always see this at the highest levels, whether it's I think, was  Michaela Coel, when she was talking about I May Destroy You when she was going back and forth, whether it was Netflix or HBO on wanting a slice, like, this is something that is clearly a challenge and a difficult thing for people at every scale of this game.Eric Eddings 07:54I mean, the industry is shifting, and you know, depending upon what side of the Creator versus like, you know, distributor network, you're on, you maybe view how fast that industry is shifting differently. You know? And it's something that I think the industry has to do a better job at understanding. People are more literate about the trials and tribulations and pitfalls that you can run into trying to create something, and trying to create something that like is distributed to other people, wherever podcasts, movies, music, you know, I'm saying like, we all have the same internet, and like, we've all read the stories and the features. And so people know more of what to ask for. And, you know, the reasons they might have received before about why they, you know, could not or maybe should not deserve, like, you know, the rights to their own content are starting to, you know, finally feel frivolous. And so, you know, I think that thing is changing, I think it is still though a game of leverage, and it's still, you know, depends on what you have in your corner, sadly, to be able to kind of push the issue, you know, with the distributor, with just whoever you're partnering with to be able to get what you want. And yeah, there sadly, is still a lot of.. We got reached out to today about this same, this very same issue. And it's that's something that happens fairly frequently. So there's a lot of work that still has to happen.Dan Runcie 09:15And on that note, is it people reaching out to you asking you for advice to be like, Hey, I know you all want Yes. Any thoughts?Brittany Luse 09:22Yes. I mean, yeah, emails, text messages, phone calls, DMS, I had somebody reach out to me via text on behalf of one of their friends yesterday, wondering about the same thing. And I mean, there's, you know, we try to give as much advice as we can. But at the end of the day, the best advice you can get in those situations definitely comes from like a legal professional. Typically, those are the people that you want to defer to. We are not we are not those. That's why sometimes I podcast people like what would you guys see what I'm like, You know what, I am not in the business of giving legal advice, but my biggest piece of legal advice is to get a lawyer. But yeah, I mean, obviously I share a little bit more people than that. But yeah, I think because we've been so open, sometimes people that we do not even know will reach out to us out of the blue, just to be like, Hey, this is something that I know that you went through, do you have 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes to talk with me and kind of guide me through this process? I mean, I will say the thing that I always say, which is that these contracts should not be so difficult that a regular person could not pick up and read them. I think that there's obviously how do I put it, I mean, a barrier to being able to have a fair contract is having the financial resources and also the institutional knowledge relationships, to be able to get a lawyer like that something that we did not have, I don't think I know when I first started working at Gimlet back in 2015. I didn't have the financial resources to hire a lawyer. Yeah, it wasn't an option, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. Because before then, I was working as like, I mean, marketing manager was the title, but that didn't line up with what I was doing at my job. So yeah, I wouldn't have had like the relationships, the understanding, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. And I definitely didn't have the money coming into working there to have that. So I think that like, you know, there is a certain level of like, eat, we're all being finessed a little bit, by the fact that people have to get not feel like they have to, but really, truly have to have agents and lawyers and money upfront, to be able to spend on having somebody basically be their pitbull, and get into the ring and fight for the contract that they deserve.Dan Runcie 11:31Yeah, it's interesting with podcasting, specifically, because I look at the music industry, or even with writing to some extent, I have seen a few more of these hybrid models where it's okay, you can release your music on this platform, we offer a little bit more of a distribution push and a little bit more of a network per se than you would get if you just did it solely on your own. But you could still maintain the ownership, we just get, you know, a set cut or whatever it is. And we've seen this in music, whether it's record labels like Empire that started with a similar type of mindset, or some of the others, even with writing, I've started to see some creative things. But with podcasting, specifically, it may be part of it's just, I haven't seen it myself and what I've seen, but I still haven't quite seen that network that is being ready to be as front and center be like, Hey, we're here, if you want to do an exclusive deal, but you maintain your ownership and we do a licensing deal, we could do that. Or if you want to have a set split, this is what our network is known for. I haven't quite seen that same thing in podcasting. And obviously, I know part of the challenge is the value is the ownership that they have because then they can go get sold to whoever, but I think part of me still waiting to see that, like, is that going to be a standard for one of the next, you know, rising networks.Brittany Luse 12:51We are waiting to see thatEric Eddings 12:56Everybody's watching. Yeah, I mean, look, there are networks. I mean, even Stitcher, I don't say this, you know, to not trying to be like a corporate shill, but like, you know, we engage a bunch of different types of deals. Yeah, I work as a creative executive there. And, you know, so what that means is like, there are some things that we, you know, own outright, there are some things that stitcher owns outright, there are some things that you know, they license, you know, and just rip the ads, there are some things that you know, are hybrid, I think what you don't want, even that, for its worth is actually can be rare to have all those different types of like deals. But I think in general, what the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility, because, you know, so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory, you know, everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of, you know, podcasts or like, on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day, there are different levels, some people are having the podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their life and into their, you know, brand or ecosystem. And the company that is willing to like, be most flexible to that is going to get that person you know, like, because they're creating that comfort, they're creating that like space to say like, I want to work with you so much of entertainment, what people haven't realized behind the scenes, it's not necessarily I want to work with you, it kind of wants to work for them, you know, and to that degree, like, you know, your contract reflects that. And I'm so excited by the shift that I see kind of happening in all entertainment-related industries. We're seeing a lot more, hell, sports, you know, we just see a lot more creator or athlete lead, you know, like deals but things were basically the power in the leverage is becoming more equal, slowly. Brittany Luse 14:54I think the thing that's tricky for me is the deals that are fair and reasonable exist, and I'll say that we received a pretty good one from Stitcher. I mean, like from jump, when we received the contract, it was like, all fit on one page, double triple space. It was mostly plain English. I understood it when I read it. And we felt good about it. And it felt like it was befitting of like, how much air can I put into the show? And who really owns it? And I will say like, it was really nice to get that deal now, but my hope is like, you know, people are like, when will we get there? What do you think 'there' is there for me quote, unquote, there for me is when me and Eric back in 2014, we first started the show would have been handed a deal like the one we got last year in 2021. And so like a or even back in 2017, when we first launched The Nod, me and Eric at that point was been given new contracts. Because then that very clearly showed that was really the DNA it was based off For Colored Nerds, come on a show about Black culture hosted by me and Eric, now we based it off of something else. Are you kidding me? That's what it was. I think that that to me is like when the equity has really gotten there, and it is going to take time, I wish that it didn't take the time it is going to take time. Brittany Luse 14:54But even I will say this though, there are people usually like white, a lot of times male. And I was gonna say like, usually they have a large following. But sometimes it's like, I don't even know if that's what's going into the business decision that's being made when somebody you know, offers, like some white guy who has a podcast a bunch of money to be able to, like make that thing forever gives that person a really good deal, or some sort of like exclusive, you know, whatever. There are people who have been getting fair deals all this time. I just would like to see sort of like the bar for that either be lower to just like I say lower, I mean, just like allowing more people in right now the bar is basically like, are you why are you guy? Are you famous? Or like, yes. Do you want to share my microphone, I would like to see sort of rather, I would like to see that avenue broadened. And that's what I mean, when we're there, like Success for me is just like not having to have relationships years in the game, or be like a white guy with a podcast to be able to get access to the type of deal that we have now.Dan Runcie 17:19Yeah. And I think that framing makes complete sense. Right? When you first started this and had the idea, you should have had this in place. And then further when you're signing a deal with Gimlet or even you know, with Quibi, or whoever. There's enough, not just you know, layman's terms, but there's also just enough commonality that those things can happen. And I think that also makes me think a bit about the show itself. And maybe just some of the slight differences between The Nod and For Colored Nerds, The Nod, at least my impression is always a bit more like, hey, here is the latest thing that is happening right now in black culture. And here's our take on it. Well, let's discuss it, I think For Colored Nerds has that as well. But I think you also mix in some evergreen topics that have always come in which I think I always enjoy hearing. And I'm curious, from your perspective, how has the process been about determining the topics of that balance, because I'm sure there are the evergreen topics that you may want to hit. There are also timely things that likely you may want to dive into. But then you also, you know, have things that you're just personally interested in compared to what you may know, the audience would really want to hear or what you know what drives engagement. So yeah, how was that, balancing that piece of the event for you?Eric Eddings 18:39You don't know how timely that question is. Because we are always kind of managing our relationship with it. It is a balance. And it's a conversation that is kind of always happening. I think, to start where you did in terms of the comparison, I think how we thought about The Nod is more so we were trying to reflect what we saw. And I think For Colored Nerds is more definitively how we think if that makes any sense. I didn't and I know Brittany, you might disagree, but Yes, just now. Yeah. But when we're thinking about that conversation, basically how we think and how to reflect that to our audience, you know, we are looking at things that like could or either maybe a lot of things start evergreen and become more topical, if that makes any sense. Because also that's kind of how I think our conversations often work we're just kind of talking about things that we've noticed or things that we've seen and they start to kind of build momentum towards like something that could be like on the show and like with it, for example, we consume dating reality shows at an unhealthy clip, we are committed to that genre. And you know, we're always kind of talking about like what we saw how we feel about you know, any given show or episode and it's starting to kind of come to the point, I have this idea that feels like a connects kind of like what I think about all those things, and then bringing like what or, you know, I actually had This idea I was thinking this. And so we start to build that for the episode. And then as we get closer to, you know, having the conversation, we start to realize like, Okay, well, what are the things happening right now that relate to this larger conversation? How can we incorporate that and you know, that changes things as well? So we're always shuffling Jesus, always shuffling our calendar, because that process changes, you know, you might the Evergreen thing might need more time to become a little topical, the topical thing, you know, feel too much like a flash in the pan need to be more evergreen. So, you know, shout out to our producer Alexis, for, you know, really like just kind of rolling with how much of the changes we, you know, sometimes need to make to the schedule. But if we're in conversation with our audience, we want to make sure that we're reacting to that in as healthy a way as possible.Brittany Luse 20:49Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's tricky. Just because like, on one hand, I don't know podcasting is so interesting in that it is one of the few truly long-form digital media. So you know what I mean? Like, other than maybe, like, reading long-form journalism, which I think we've learned over time, not everybody does. That's part of the reason why we've gotten to the place that we are in society right now. Podcasts are digital, and so on some level, they can feel kind of ephemeral, but they live on the internet for so long, in like a well-indexed, centralized place. And they're long. People will listen to two hours. I mean, people I mean, me, I will listen to two hours, that type of just BS, like nothing, like people just talking about old gossip. Like, I have no problem that, for me is something that I totally enjoy. And there's so many, the success of so many shows out there is really just people wanting to listen to someone talk sometimes regardless of whether it's evergreen or of the moment. And so it's tricky, because like we do find ourselves straddling that line a lot of the time, sometimes, I think we managed to like really kind of, like get it really right and hit something at that moment where it just feels really fresh, you know, and really, like well thought out, even though it's coming out like right, as the moment that sounds like something is kind of cresting out there in the zeitgeist. But I mean, that still is kind of like at odds with how we think about engaging some of the topics that we do on our show, you know, we try to be thoughtful, we try to be careful in making sure that we're expressing ourselves in a way that's clear in a way that's not going to be harmful to others, in a way that's going to be entertaining. And that does take time. So sometimes, you know, sometimes we'll be chasing our tails a little bit. Trying to get stuff out the door. Yeah, but I don't know, it's like, we try to have even some of our most topical episodes still have that sustenance to them, that will get somebody to want it, you know, come back and listen to it for a second, third, fifth time, or even discover it three, four months down the line, even our most topical of the moment episodes, have that extra something to them, that keeps people you know, feeling engaged long after the moment of that episode has passed. Dan Runcie 23:06For me the episode that you all did that. I think it's that exact point, Brittany, is the Girlboss in the City episode. I feel like when I heard that, I wanted to listen, because I was like, Wait, is this what I think should be by the terrible? Okay, well elicited a demo, I heard I was like, Okay, I see the trend. That makes sense. Okay. Like, and then, you know, just hearing, you know, your take, and I know, you know, just some of the other examples, I'm like, Yes, like, that makes 100% sense. And I think what makes it resonate, not just is it the trend itself, but it also I think, as a listener for me makes me think about, okay, what are some other trends that are like that, because I think so many of the things that we may think may be celebratory, especially in this past six years, where I think we've seen a great influx of more black media and more black representation, especially whether it's with your Netflix or with your streaming services. That said, there are still plenty of, you know, opportunities and holes and tropes and things to push back on. So I've been thinking about that piece ever since you all put that up.Eric Eddings 24:09Thankfully, like, it was one of the things, most of our episodes, also when we're making them, I don't know if Brittany feels this way, but I often feel a bit kind of crazy, because we'll have an idea. It's not like we don't really deal and hot takes that's kind of why Brittany was like, you know, we take our time we try to make sure we're, you know, fair, we do our research. And so, you know, sometimes when we come upon a thing where we're like, Okay, now this is the take, and we see this trend, we feel like we can define it and then there's that moment actually right after in between having recorded or talk through the episode that we're going to record and it coming out where I feel crazy because now I'm like, I see it everywhere. And it doesn't it's like you know, like almost like they live where you have the sunglasses all you see like people as aliens. It's kind of like that. And so, you know, with that episode it was really exciting to kind of make those types of connections. Because like that genre I have been consuming not as a genre, I have been just like catching pieces of it. And it wasn't until like being in conversation with Britney, that I'm realizing, Wait, this is a genre. And you know, when you're thinking about that, that means something might change in terms of how you consume it. And so like, you know, a lot of the surprise I had or like, I was, you know, Brittany was explaining this thing or how she feels about her genre before it's worth, as you hear me, I'm coming to it, you know, I'm saying like, I am embracing it to kind of formulate my own ideas. And I think, yeah, I think the audience appreciates being able to hear kind of both sides of that, like the person who has, like, you know, who feels like they, they know, their I know my shit, I have figured it out, I see it, and then that person's like, Well, wait, actually, oh, shit. Like, you know, like that tug of war, I think can be really, really fun. It happens in so many different ways. Like, you know, back and forth, which is, you know, part of what's so fun about show.Brittany Luse 26:00Yeah, I'm really glad that you respond to that episode, because, like, sometimes, we'll be putting stuff out and it's like, okay, I know this is interesting to me. Like, you know, like, Oh, get out here on a limb talking about you know, all these white women and Sex in the City on this For Colored Nerds show you know, I'm like, how are people going to respond? We did an episode more recently about me looking at like moms throughout pop culture and how my favorite mom on TV right now is Pamela Adlon on better things, a white woman. And I'm like, I tweeted before the episode came out, I was like, Look, by these episodes, gonna be bought one of my favorite white women, but I need y'all to trust me. And it came out on March 1, and someone tried to catch me they were like, don't do this during Black History Month. And I was like, it's gonna be March 1. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a little, it's a little stressful to think about, you know, like, we have so many conversations, me and Eric, and also us with Alexis William, our producer, like we have so many conversations as a team. Just like pinging things back and forth, we have a group chat, where we send articles, messy stuff from the internet, Twitter, beef. I'd like to talk about this thing. It said, when we have episodes like that, it sometimes feels like we're like letting people into like, I don't know, it's like opening up your medicine cabinet, or you're like utility closet for somebody, it's like I'm going to show you something might be a little weird, but we'll see how you respond. So it's really nice to hear from you. Like, as somebody who is like both has their finger on the pulse of what's happening, sort of like immediate entertainment. But also you don't strike me as much of a Girlboss. But it's nice to know that you felt the episode as well.Eric Eddings 27:39The other thing you spoke to the moment a bit, and I think is important to kind of come back to that, like the kind of the moment that we're in. You know, I think a part also, while we were so excited to return to the show, you know, like for us, I was actually weird. I was talking about this with a friend yesterday like I start I'm watching this, I'm watching the changes in media, people come in into the space making stuff that like, to be frank, I've always kind of dreamed of seeing or listening to. And the thing that I'm so happy about is that you know, I don't know how to shut off the brain, the part of my brain is trying to understand where it's headed, and figure out how I feel about it. And so, you know, it's so awesome to kind of have that space where we can do that. And I think even one of the things we realized is that looking kind of back at, you know, both The Nod and For Colored Nerds, we were doing a version of kind of that same thing. We've often talked about it feeling a bit like a time capsule. And so you know, I'm happy that you came to this came to Girlboss in this moment, because I'm also so curious about where it goes and like then we can you know, even selfishly, I can look back and kind of be like, listen to that, like, Oh, it's so interesting that that's where we were considering, like wherever we end up because look at the news house, it's kind of like we have no idea. The world is crazy.Dan Runcie 28:51Oh, yeah, I think the time capsule piece is a great way to play it. Because yeah, as you put it, we are in this era where so much is changing right now with Black Media, and who knows what we may be talking about in 2025, right? Maybe there's a different type of trope, maybe things are better. And there's, you know, less, you know, of a need to dig into tropes. But I think there's one thing that I do think about that will probably always be a bit of a time capsule itself. Maybe not just for you all, but in general of like how we look at it, and maybe I guess I'd call it the perception of Tyler Perry. Books out and as a business person, and I think we could probably do consider I know he's been a common theme on your shows. And going back and listening to someone else can probably reflect maybe where and I don't want to say their culture because people have such a wide opinion of Tyler Perry even within the black community. Oh, yes. But it's interesting because I think that you all could probably relate to maybe how I think about him and what he's built because on one hand, it is so impressive to see this person that literally built what he was able to create and given the circumstances and As a black business leader, it is inspiring to see that. On the other hand, as people like me that often live on Twitter to log every few days, there's slip time that clip that's like, no Tyler Perry Studios has to be shut down. Because it's some clip of someone wiling out and doing something ridiculous that would never be seen on any other type of broadcast. And you're like, what? But that's part of the basic this. And I mean, I could go on for days about it. But yeah, where are you both right now with Tyler Perry? Brittany Luse 30:32My feelings swing like a pendulum about how I feel about Tyler Perry. Like, on one hand, I mean, I'll say this, like, I think the older I get, and the more his legacy like continues on, I really enjoy the camp of Tyler Perry, Tyler Perry. Like almost has no, not almost Tyler Perry has absolutely no shame. Tyler Perry is one of the most shameless performers I've ever seen in my entire life. He leaves it all on the floor, he holds literally looking back, like, I don't even think he has an unexplored idea. In his mind. I think he literally has an idea. I can take action on each of them. And I think that we've seen them meet as possible. So like, I don't know, there's something about like, him just not giving a shit that I really connect to. And he just like leaning in and doing whatever he can to entertain people, maybe second himself first, I think I love that. It's amazing. When Tyler Perry also shows up in somebody else's movie, his acting… like I had never seen Gone Girl until like two years ago. And I watched it and I found myself saying this is just like a white Tyler Perry movie. And then he was in the regular person. Like, Star Wars. I think the Star Wars played a regular person. Yeah, like, I think that is so funny. And I kind of Oh, yeah, yeah. It's funny the level like, I think he kind of knows he's ridiculous. And I like that. I also like, you know, he said a bunch of things about like, how his content is like, it's very accessible in every sense of the word. And also, like he like, does make family entertainment, which like, when you think about like, when we get together, black folks get together to watch movies or play games or have you know, Christmas dinner or whatever, wherever we're going to turn on after that, you kind of do want that multi-generational entertainment that's got a little something for everybody, maybe slightly risky, with a Christian message. It serves a purpose. And he's put so many black actors and not writers. But what I would say something that I found out is that like crew people, like basically like if you're on Tyler Perry crew, if your editor, you're a gaffer, whatever, for what I understand, you're making good money, like he'll pay you in Atlanta, what you would get paid in New York or LA.So it's weird. It's like I have such complex feelings, because obviously, like, he doesn't employ writers at all, which is pretty clear. Even if you didn't know that for a fact, I think it's pretty evident from the work he does employ writers at all. I mean, there's so much to be said about his content and what some people might think of as like it being harmful or holding black people back or engaging stereotypes, especially stereotypes about black women. I mean, all of that stuff is true. But I do find Tyler Perry interesting as somebody who like has built an honest business what I mean, when I say honest business is like, he knows exactly what people want from him. And he gives it to people consistently. He knew somehow that like if people would watch me playing Medea completely made up character, that people would watch grainy bootleg DVDs and be playing Medea and gospel stage place with their families, they absolutely would buy a 15 $20 movie ticket, they absolutely would go to see me in person, like on tour. And they absolutely would tune in if I was on Oprah. And that was a pretty smart way to build a brand. If you look back at it. That's what I mean, when I say that Tyler Perry has an honest business. He provides exactly what he has always promised, and there is something compelling about that. That's where I am today.Eric Eddings 34:18It's almost like I can't quit him completely. If that makes any sense. Like, you know, to Brittany's point, there's so much he's accomplished so much. And it's so fascinating how he uses that those accomplishments to facilitate by where there's growth, his own growth, the growth company where growth is in the medium, whatever, and it's just so hard to pin down his reasons, you know, saying in terms for any one thing, but you can't help but be fascinated by it like yeah, it's one of those people like I respect what he's accomplished so much and you know, they're even don't get twisted. Another big piece of this is that I try to have very complex thoughts about what I want the world to be. And I try to educate myself, I try to really, you know, say, like, do the work of understanding who I want to be in the world, but also try not to be above at all, if that makes any sense. And I think like with Tyler Perry, sometimes people can, like, turn their nose, like the folks who enjoy his content, because of all the things that come along with it. But also, like, we can't lose the fact that like, people are being moved by this in some way. And I try not to be above I try to meet them where they're at, would I challenge him to maybe make a few changes? Absolutely. If I had the opportunity, you know, do I think that like, you know, maybe even those people were in his audience deserve a tiny bit better? Absolutely. But guess what they're happy. And you know, like that, it gives me the thing that I can connect with that, you know, that cousin who I only see at the family reunion or, you know, I'm saying like on will help more recently, the family Zune call or whatever we're doing, you know, nowadays, like, it gives me that thing that I know, I can connect with him about, you know, and I send my thoughts about everything else related to the movie to the group test, you know. So yeah, you got to respect it, even though you also maybe have to critique it.Dan Runcie 36:06100%. I mean, look at how he's got about just being unapologetic. I think back to that clip that he had with Kenya Barris, where Kenya Barris said something to the effect, you know, I'm always making shows that I'm trying to seek white people's approval or rotten tomatoes or whatever. Tyler Perry's, like, I don't give a fuck about Rotten Tomatoes, or any of this stuff. Like I'm making it for the people I make it for right. And then you see Tyler Perry, like two years later getting honored by the Oscars institution that he totally does not care what they have to say like, and this is how he's built himself. And there is something amazing with that, right. And, Eric, I do like the point that you brought up regarding how it can be easy for people, especially within, you know, black folks to turn their nose up or look down on the people that clearly enjoy this content. And in some ways, it also makes me think of no different than how in, you know, the most recent election in the primaries, people were turning their nose up at some of the black voters in the south and who they supported as the, you know, Democratic candidate and it's like, no, like, you can't just, you know, play this elitistness of how people look at their content. And I think there is, you know, to your point as well, Brittany a beauty and who else can relate. I mean, I've talked to my mom about Tyler Perry, and you know, she's a big woman in her 60s, and you know, she'll watch beat the browns, and she's no problem with it. And I think, you know, it's great that she does that, right. And I think, you know, just being able to have that kind of comment places like okay, yes. Why does this exist? I'm still gonna laugh when somebody takes a clip of it and posts it on Twitter and be like, What the hell was this? But, no. Brittany Luse 37:47But no, I mean, to this day, sometimes me my turn off the dinner scene, like the dinner reveal scene from Why did I get married? I mean, you can just turn that on anytime a day. And you'll be laughing for 50 minutes straight. I'm sorry, that was a good movie. When I first started dating my fiance I think maybe five weeks into us dating five weeks, and I got the flu. And he took care of me, which is like a, you know, thing that definitely set him apart. But the thing is, like, the first thing that he did was turn on why didn't get married? He was like, Oh, you're sick a bit. Let me turn on this tell I could have put you in a better place. And he was absolutely right. There's something about this stuff. It's just, it's comforting.Eric Eddings 38:31It works. It definitely worksDan Runcie 38:32it definitely does. Alright, well, before we let you go. I wanted to talk a bit about hip hop. Of course, this is an area that I do cover with the podcast and it's just an interesting thing for me because both have my personal interest of someone that like anyone that music I grew up listening to in high school and college definitely will always have a special place for me, but I'm covering now and looking at a lot of people whose music I may not necessarily seek out but I'm still you know, I'm following to make sure that I can, you know, not just be as subjective as I can. But obviously, you know, it's hard not to do that. But I guess it's people that are also in the media space. And you know, also you know, I guess I'll include both hip hop and R&B together, it'd be good to hear you know, what's your relationship like with current music made by current artists compared to the music that also may have been popular when you were in high school or college? What is that relationship like for you?Eric Eddings 39:30It's funny. We've been talking about this a little bit just as a group as a show team, this exact point, at least for me, you know, it's a really kind of interesting moment because like, I was somebody you know, back in the like, blog era Hip Hop time, you know, I was like, I caught every night right post you know, I'm saying like, I was literally because I google readers, I would make sure to click everyone listens to like first 30 seconds of the mixtape or whatever to see if I liked it, and then you know, kind of come back to listen more later, I got time for it now, you know, like, there's just too much going on. And so, you know, I found myself at the place where I have learned that like a lot of people get like once they kind of hit their mid-30s actually start apparently retreating to the things that made them most comfortable. So I feel myself doing that, but also, to your point, like I feel conflicted about it, because I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm not trying to tap out, I'm not trying to, like push myself back from the table, you know, I'm still here. And so, you know, I do try to catch some of the kind of newer artists who are kind of coming out and watch, again, for the trends of what I see. And so you're, I'll still try to listen a little bit online Fridays when stuff comes out. Like I'm trying to, like hear a little bit, but not all the time, like, there have been folks who have kind of risen above and often it's the first kind of connected to the people to the artists who I kind of evangelize from a little bit before. So like, Baby Keem, for example, I've been like a huge fan of like, you know, some of his like tracks that come out on the album, he obviously you know, his Kendrick's cousin, you know, but just like that kind of folks who are kind of in the orbit of others that No, I can feel most confident about in terms of whether the sound is going to be kind of what I'm looking for. Because also hip hop is really changing. And like, you know, it's changing around me in a way that I don't always connect with, but I respect that power and the fact that like, you know, it's a living breathing thing, it's gonna become something else. And so, you know, I'm trying to understand a little bit of the trajectory of kind of where they're going to be able to just understand how my relationship to it is changing. So yeah, it's a complicated time. I'm not like, I think I told Brittany this at this moment, listen to more r&b than I have ever in my life.Dan Runcie 41:41Are we talking about modern like R&B artists or like R&B back in the day,Eric Eddings 41:45All of it, I'm talking about, you know, like, everything from the help that rerelease, hotels to, you know, Jazmine Sullivan, to you know, going back, and I have literally I call it like, oh, people cookout music, their playlist has been good, that placement, plenty of work for me, you know, so it really runs the range. And some of that comes from just like the volatility of the world right now, you know, but I don't want to say that, like, I don't know, I think Hip Hop reflects more than what we can consume. And so what I have been seeing recently has sometimes stressed me out, you know, and so I found myself leaning on other genres, but I do still have hope that they're gonna swing back, and there's probably gonna be somebody else Hill, everybody's talking about Kendrick coming back this year. So maybe, you know, he can inspire some folks, we'll see. Because, sorry, I rambledBrittany Luse 42:28As far as music. So I really like music that I can sing along to and kind of what Eric was saying. Like, I like to say things that like, especially like I like listening to, at this point in my life, rap and hip hop, that makes me feel aspirational. And I feel like female rappers right now are the only people who are rapping about things that actually you'd want to do. They're like, oh, I want you know, they're basically like, I want to have sex with a really hot guy. I want to make a lot of money. I want to buy expensive things. And I want to go on a trip. I'm like, wow, yeah. I mean, I identify with that until like, they say, a really poetic way. And they put a great beat. I'm like, This is what I'm talking about this. I understand. They're always just like, I'm so flying. So cute. I'm so beautiful. I'm gonna have it? To me, this never goes out of style. I think that sometimes when I hear some of the young, these young men, everything is like Xanny, Xanny, Xanny. And my thought is like, I know, I'm getting really getting older because I'm just like, Oh, my God, they are stressing me out. Like, are you drinking water? Are you taking breaks? Do you have a trip, buddy? Like, you should not be taking all these empty bars by yourself and being in a club, and I tell anybody is not safe. But also like, some, like, I want to listen to things that are gonna like make me feel good or ease my stress. And I think to Eric's point, right now, I don't feel like listening to a lot of younger male artists at this point eases my stress. That's not to say that I don't think there are quite a few people that I hear that I'm like, oh, man, that sounds really good. That sounds interesting. But I also don't follow music as much as I used to when I was younger, I was kind of into like, some of like the block hip hop. I used to follow a blind eye for the kids. And I was always downloading all the stuff and listening to it. And it was fun. But like, I didn't have like the type of bills I have. Now. I have more energy. I'm tired now. And so I think even sometimes deciding to try something new feels like it can take energy out of me when I'm like I can just go straight to something that I know that I'm really going to enjoy. So because I love music that I can sing along to. I have always been a pretty strong r&b listener. My parents are really an r&b I've actually found myself enjoying present r&b and real like real good singers like a Jazmine Sullivan Ari Lennox, JoJo, like people who really can think I do like to listen to music. I love pop. But you know, speaking specifically, to slightly close up. I've been listening to a lot of older r&b stuff that like I will hear on like a 70s mix or something like that. And it'll like take me back to being in a car of my parents on a Saturday night coming home from one of their friend's parties, hearing like a quiet storm set on the radio, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I haven't heard the song in 25 years. Like, I've been listening to a lot of that stuff. And I don't know, it just puts me in a good state. And I feel like some of it really just speaks to my emotions, maybe that I'm experiencing as in like, as I'm getting deeper into adulthood as I'm like a real adult now at 34 when I wasn't really 27, 24, 22. I think that there's like a, I don't know, like something about where the melody hits. The lyrical complexity is just I don't know, I understand basically, now are my parents were like 35, 40. And listening to Angela Bofill. Late at night, driving workplaces. So I mean, but what I will say is that my opinion on what music is popping right now, I'm actually I don't care that much about my opinion, even if I don't listen to everything. I really want to know what young people are responding to. Because I think what they think of their music is a lot more important than what I think of their music. Like, it's fine to me that like, I don't connect with it, because it's not meant I'm not meant to connect with it. Like my time of wearing you know, as the kids say, like the Olivia Pope business casual in the club, I had a stat investment for over 21. I worked for a party at Rutgers in 2007. Those days are behind me, thankfully. But yeah, I think I don't know. That's what part is more like tick tock tick tock, like playlists, or even just like seeing what's hot on the charts. Keeps me up with like, artists that young people are super into. And also even sometimes on TikTok, there'll be people who are way younger than me, like 1015 years younger, who like to make Top Five artists I'm listening to right now. And I get to hear snippets of their music. Like, I'm just interested in what they think about their music, because like, honestly, what they think about their music and how it speaks to them. That says a lot more to me about their, like, where culture is headed, and what they're into that like me listening to something and being like, What the hell is this? You know, I'm Auntie now and it's fine.Dan Runcie 47:09Yeah, that's the exact point there. I think that I, like, in my view, group chats, people will do this thing. Every year, someone will post the annual XXL freshman class, and then they're like, Hey, do y'all even know when you these names in here? And I'm like, bro, you're 39 with you. They're not meant for you. Like, yeah, this literally isn't meant for you. And so I think about that piece, right? And maybe even more. So now. It's like, I think that some of these artists the same way that media general is just becoming more niche, they know, their audience, they're leaning into it even more. So that may be some of the forced mass marketing that they would have been pushed to do, you know, 20, 30 years ago before.Eric Eddings 47:49To your point, they're smarter, you know, saying you don't need to, and also how people think about what a hugely successful career in music is different and slightly now, you know, like, there is not actually the same scale as there used to be or if that scale exists is only for a much smaller amount of folks. So like, I think people are coming into the game. Now, the game sound like I'm trying to be cool, but like, people are coming into hip hop now trying to, you know, like, sustain themselves and have a long career as opposed to always being, you know, trying to necessarily be like the person at like, the top the charts. And I think that actually is really great. I think because again, the sustaining is a part that is really interesting, because we've seen so many of our, you know, favorite rappers or musicians period just kind of like burn themselves out or get burned by the industry. And then they, you know, disappear after a few albums. So yeah, you know, like the like, I'm still shocked futures is produced it, you know, he's had a long career, but like, I think there are a lot of.Brittany Luse 48:48vVery true.Eric Eddings 48:51But yeah, there's so many others. I'm like, I want them to be able to have the longevity in this space, especially a lot of the female rappers out here now, I am excited to see them. So in control of the business as well, because of how, like, you know, they're smarter about what that's going to protect for them later on. Man is like getting her shit together. She learned about the run me off the paint. Like, I know what the contract the paper is supposed toEric Eddings 49:18The sauce was good. It was good.Brittany Luse 49:19It was it was great. Yeah.Dan Runcie 49:23Oh, man, we could talk about, you know, hip hop all day. But I know we've run out of time. But before we let you go, I feel like that last point you made was probably a good note to just tie things up, right? People are getting smarter about knowing their audiences leaning into it. And I think that speaks a lot to what you both have been able to build over the years with For Colored Nerds with The Nod and then you know, back with for color nerds. Again, I think that having an audience that has been with you this long, just speaks to the work that you've done in all of the that goes into it. So thank you again for coming on. And I mean, both as a listener and as a fellow podcaster, it's been great to watch both of your charity. Thank you. It was great.Eric Eddings 50:05last night. Yeah, seriously,Brittany Luse 50:07You do great work/ You made this infographic like a flowchart about ESA raised businesses and how they Yeah, like how each one feeds the other. Like talking about why she still has the Patreon how she's thinking about radio and this was probably like three or four years ago or something like that. It was like instant follow. So it's cool to be here with youDan Runcie 50:31Thank you. That means a lot. Really appreciate it, really appreciate it. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link text it to a friend posted in your group chat posted in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead rate the podcast give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Kevin Liles didn’t co-found 300 Entertainment just to sell it. He created it, first and foremost, to fill a void he saw in the music industry — a lack of talent development. Ten years after starting the 300 record label, it’s safe to say Kevin and company filled that void. By developing culture-shifting artists like Gunna, Megan Thee Stallion, Young Thug, among others, 300 has become one of the hottest commodities in all of hip-hop. This led to WMG buying the formerly-independent label for $400 million at the start of the new year.In WMG, Kevin believes he’s found a partner with the “mindset of an independent, but the muscle of a major.” As the one-time EVP of WMG, Kevin would know this first-hand. And even with an influx of $400 million, Kevin isn’t going to change the way he makes decisions. For Kevin, it’s always been about prioritizing the cultural incentives rather than the financial ones. This mindset has followed him from Def Jam intern to its President and now as CEO of 300 & Elektra Music Group.In-between running the label, Kevin has also invested resources in creating a pipeline for future music and entertainment execs with diverse backgrounds. In particular, Kevin has tapped into HBCUs, helping set up a $250 million fundraising campaign for his alma mater, Morgan State, and connecting students directly with the FBI.   Kevin and I covered a lot of ground in this episode of the Trapital. Here are the show chapters:[3:23] Behind 300 Entertainment’s Sale To Warner Music[8:29] Gunna’s Meteoric Rise [10:29] How Phrases Like Hot Girl Summer & Pushin P Became A Thing [13:08] What Changes With WMG Partnership? [15:58] New Def Jam Video Game In The Works? [17:27] Launching 300 Studios [20:17] Kevin Thinks The Best Is Yet To Come For Hip Hop[22:10] Hip Hop’s International Opportunity [24:23] Major Differences Between Running Def Jam vs. 300 [28:10] The Power Of Diverse Execs Making Cultural, Not Financial Decisions[30:25] How Music Industry Has Handled Diversity Issues Since George Floyd[31:00] Kevin’s Attempt To Create Diverse Talent Pipeline[32:14] The Rise Of Hip-Hop Media Personalities[40:35] Young Thug’s Role As Chief Innovation Officer[43:49] Keeping Narrative On The Future, Not PastThis episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcastListen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Kevin Liles, IG: @kevinlileskwl, Twitter: @KevinLiles1  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____TRANSCRIPTIONKevin Liles 00:00When you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know, so that young people run a company, they don't know they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, “Oh, he's the boss.” So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world. Until a CEO that looks like them, act like them talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture.Dan Runcie 00:56Today's episode is with Kevin Liles, the Chairman and CEO of 300 Entertainment and Electro Music Group. Kevin's been one of the most influential record label executives of the past few decades. He ran Def Jam for seven years in the late 90s, early 2000s. And almost 10 years ago, he started 300 Entertainment, which he just sold to Warner for a $400 million deal. So we talked about everything that went into that decision, what it was like to sell the record label what a partnership with Warner looks like and how the record label can maintain its independent spirit under the umbrella of native record labels. We also talked about Gunner and how he's having one of the biggest years in hip hop right now and Pusha P and everything with that. We talked about Megan Thee Stallion and we talked about Thug. Did you know that Thug is Chief Innovation Officer at 300? When we talked all about that and what that means and a whole lot more. He also gave us the latest update on Def Jam Vendetta. You know the people that ask him at Def Jam Vendetta, they want to see the video game come back through. So we talked about that. We also talked to broader about IP. If you follow me on social media, you know that I want to see the story to hip hop record labels get the same type of TV anthology breakdowns that we're seeing now about Thera Nose and WeWork and Uber I want to see the same about Def Jam and Bad Boy and Rockefeller. And we talked a little bit about that too. It was a great conversation. I think it's always inspiring to talk to one of the most influential execs in hip hop that I believe really helped to make this culture what it is. Here's my chat with Kevin Liles. All right, today we got co-founder and CEO with 300. Entertainment Kevin Liles with us today. Hey, Kevin, I got to give you a shout out man, it feels like you've had one of the strongest starts to this year sold the record label, Gunner’s hit starting the year off strong. How does it feel?Kevin Liles 02:43It feels like another day at the office. People ask me all the time, Kevin, what's new, every day is new. Every day is a new opportunity. God woke me up and I feel there's a bigger purpose. And I feel the steps that we take, I don't look for number one albums, I don't look for to be, accolades or to be the best this or anything. I really just strive on doing this work that day. And I joke with somebody I said no with me, I'm never gonna be up too upset, they'll never be too sad. I will flow like water. And water is a very powerful thing because it helps grow. It changes direction with the most people around the world. So I feel like what is great about me.Dan Runcie 03:23I hear that. So talk to me a bit about the sale because that made big news, there was rumors about it happening towards the end of 2021. But walk me through that process. When did you first think about selling 300 and what went into the decision for you?Kevin Liles 03:39I never thought about selling. I don't build things to sell. I'm a serial entrepreneur, but I build things to change the world. And I find a void. And the void was the creation of 300 co-founders, the void was there was no true artist about it. When we talk about our students. I'm not just talking about developing a sound or developing of a person I'm saying we're raising young kids, young men, and women into the world. And so they need to have some have dads and we have moms and we had by my dad, but some have not, you know around them. So we need to be of service to their growth. So when people say what are you thinking about selling, I always was thinking about who was my best partner that I could have the independent of my mindset of independent, but the muscle of a major who's the best partner that independence will be in their DNA, who's the best partner that I could actually administer around the world, the good, the bad, the right the wrong and treat the body want to be treated. And so I'm not for sale. 300 as an entity I sold because I wanted entrepreneurs to learn what intrapreneurship was to add what tools in a toolboxes around the world, but you know, people can't be sold a company what I did was sold an asset that I felt could be a bigger asset to the world. I'd say do you think Steve, isn't a Jeff Bezos is still sitting in his garage. No. Do you think that guys are still in a dorm room? Yeah, I mean, Zuckerberg in a dorm room? No, no, we actually have a great idea, a great business, we're acquiring things, starting different things. So I believe the sale is something that people put too much emphasis on. Now, with that being said, I wanted also to create history. So if you think about Motown selling for 61 million, if you think about Def Jam, selling for 140 million on the face, on 425 million getting sold for 325, or even a man selling for 500 million in 27 years, eight years, we sold a company for $400 million. And so to me, I also think about legacy and history and what that means. So if people want to talk about the sale, talk about it in a way, that is historic for an African American, historic for a company, but it's also profitable for shareholders. And as a CEO, you know, we got to make sure the shareholders and the board a great, but I think the culture needed to see that it is a possibility to build something, sell something, become a bigger brand by doing it, but never lose the mindset of an independent.Dan Runcie 06:13I think that's an interesting good point, because so many of the big, whether it's the catalog sales, or the record label sales that we've seen over the past two years that we've seen this run happen, a lot of them haven't been with executives that are black, or executives that, you know, are just non-white men in general. So I think that the fact that you were able to do that shows and signals not just what you're capable of, but also what your artists are capable of, too. And I think as well on the partnership side, it's interesting because I think that 300, maybe, you know, relative to a lot of the other labels that were independent before people may have thought that “Oh, well. 300 is just as powerful as some of the majors or you know, definitely has the same firepower behind it.” But it sounds like what you're saying is that, yeah, even with all that we've accomplished, there's still more that we can have, you know, with the backing and with the further partnership of a company like a Warner.Kevin Liles 07:11We shocked the world where we had more Grammys than the majors but magazine three Grammys, you know, we shot the world that we put out and we're up against a major and had the number one album in the first week out as this little independent thing, you got to realize all the stuff that's happening now is still stuff we've set up last year. And so as we go into this year, just look for us to be doing hashtag bigger family business, not just family business, but bigger family business.Dan Runcie 07:37Yeah, I hear that. And I think too, talking about the artists that were able to do things, I mean, Ghana has been the poster child so far this year, at least when it comes to hip hop, I mean, not just him getting the number one single but him being the weekend, but then had everything surrounding around Pusha P and everything there. I mean, I assume that has to feel pretty good. Because I think it's so tough, especially in this era, to have superstars and people that are on the verge of superstar status to kind of grow in get there with so much noise and so much other artists that are coming through whether it's independence or others. So the fact that he's able to, you know, not show to he compete, but outsell other superstars, I think shows a lot of not just the potential, but also that this is still possible in this era, we can still have the biggest stars continue to reach further heights.Kevin Liles 08:29Yeah, I think you'd want to talk about true artist development and from the dropping of drip Season One, two, and three, and one. And all those things, you got to realize that young kid was just sitting by bug in the studio learning and he never stopped learning, we never stopped evolving. And when you saw him perform with commitment to balance, open up the brands, you know, one year, he's all things that became attainable to him and through by us the work that went into ds for the thoughtfulness of how it started, ebb and flows of it, of how many girl records should I have on it? What am I trying to say? I can't say I'm dripping. And I'm not really drip. So I have to be in every fashion show or it just you know, the thoughtfulness. We're not just putting out records, if you want to do that, that's not 300. 300 is thoughtful. 300 is taking the time to understand where an artist is in their career. Where is it a mixtape time isn't an album time? Is it collab time? These are all things that because people don't have the relationships with the artists, then if the artists house or going on vacation, they can't really communicate. You know, obviously, you can't hand me something without an owner's name. I have to know everything about it so I can assist. You know, Gunner is more than an RC you can, he's a human being but he's also a very good friend. You know, Evany his manager is not just a manager. She's a system that could be a daughter to me, and I have a responsibility to develop another young woman in our industry. So to me, what are we Pusha P whenever we have Hot Girl Summer, well we attract cooling it or you know, Savage in it, whatever you whatever one you want to a week bad and bougie in it. But everyone you want to pick up. We don't just, you know have moments we make movies.Dan Runcie 10:15I like that you mentioned that because you have had so many I feel like every year every other year, there's some moment that 300 is able to capture some term that they're able to introduce something in the water like power, y'all always the ones that have the terms on lock. Kevin Liles 10:29You know, I think it's a great commentary to the great artists and the great creators and the great executives that we have run if we don't make this shit up. We didn't go to FedWatch and say, Yo, do trap boo. We didn't go to mag and say have a hot girl summer. We don't go to yo, guess what the Gunner we go, Pusha P, that's not how it happens. It happens because we provide a safe place for ideation, creativity, and opportunities for people to fail. But failure is a learning experience. You know, when Marvin Gaye wanted to do what's going on, and it was an appointment, and what his biggest-selling album, it was just where he was in life. ps4 is where Gunner is in life. Punk was where thug was in life. You can't go through manufacture in the ship. And it's not cultural. And if it's not cultural, then it really can't be 300 to me, and that's really the message and one of the great things about being able to take over the electrode of entertainers we've also it's in their ethos, we have great labels like FBI, FDR, Roadrunner, iconic labels that started with founders that had a point of view. And so to me, as long as I have a point of view, as long as it be cultural, as long as I could have the independent mindset, I'm good. And I'm doing it all, again to raise great young men and women, web executives or artists. But I really believe God wakes me up to change the world. I really believe it is not even a question in my mind. And so I want to get better. I want to be a better father, a better operator, a better friend. And if you always challenge yourself that there is more, that there is more to do. If you reimagine and rethink and things you will see God will answer you in so many great way. Do you think that the VR sold a company eight months ago now months ago, Mary Jane, you connected? Did you think she was performing at the Superbowl? Do you think that the Super Bowl, who would be it they'd be run by Jay Z? Do you think that like, we don't make this up? This is I can't tell you, I can just thank God, and thank the people around me for believing that they do have a bigger mission.Dan Runcie 12:37And I think with this too, you build something so special, you talked a lot about that independent spirit that I think carry through with artists development with how your artists became the culture-makers that they are. And I gotta wonder, though, with the partnership with Warner now, of course, you're giving up a little bit of control in exchange for the power, it helps you put behind the artists. But is there any concern or any thought about okay, what will that look like? Or how may that potentially shift if we're seeding some of that control or some of that power?Kevin Liles 13:08Then, you see, I'm the wrong guy to accept because I never felt like I worked in the back. I always feel like give me the mission, give me assignment. And let me do that. Again, great thing about this opportunity, Julie Greenwald. And I ran Def Jam together along with Leah, Julie was an assistant I was starting to enter. So she knows everything about me. She knows where the bodies buried, she knows the good, the bad, the ugly, maximum side I work with as a concrete colleague for 9, 10 years, you know, he knows the good, the bad. And so I'm a position player. So if I need to be the coach to quarterback, the running back, then I have enough tools in my toolbox to play whatever position and so I never give up control. Because nobody does what I do can't keep that and so I never look at it. But we can you know, you have a boss now. Okay, what does that mean? They have a great employee. Oh, Kevin, Kevin, for your artists. They can't know we do what we do. But now we do it. It's hashtag bigger family business that it's just again, I'm not the guy that when you take on additional investment that you change, I believe the thing about 300, thing about Def Jam, these were things that were built out of necessity, and we curated them in a cultural way, not in a financial way. Not we saw a need to do Def Comedy Jam. We saw a need to have fat farm and baby fat. We saw a need to make Def Jam Vendetta and Fight For New York. You know, we saw a need to be heavily involved in political races and important countries. We saw a need that the State's Attorneys in every city can help us change the narrative around who's going while going and why they're in jail and they should be out of jail. We just saw see things because we're out in the streets without it every single day. That doesn't mean everybody has to be Mona, what it means is you have to be in touch with who you are, why you are, what your purpose is. And that is what I challenge. But listen, I don't deal with coke cans and cigars and shit talk back to me. These are real people in, my people know they have the freedom, the freedom to disagree, the freedom to try. And when you have a bunch of risk-takers, like we have in Max and we have and Julie and we have and the rest of the team and I have two great kids and rating Celine that most people wouldn't give them the power that I've given them. But remember, they may be president and CEO of Def Jam at age 30. So, to me, this is just a great opportunity for us to do what we do never change who we are.Dan Runcie 15:42I hear that. And you mentioned Def Jam Vendetta. So we got to talk about that. Because I think it was last year, you put out a little teaser. You said hey, do you all want another sequel? You want another one? So where's that ad? What are you thinking about for the future of the Def Jam video game?Kevin Liles 15:58I don't know if you saw the tweet about it yesterday. But he said, Man, we need another one. Because back and Snoop it oh my god, it's timing. For me. It's working with the right partner. At that time, Electronic Arts was the right partner, they allowed me to curate it without the limitations of “Oh, but we're Electronic Arts. Oh, and you know,” so when I find the right gaming button, and if you're out there, let me know, when I find the right gaming partner that wants to experience gaming in a way that I see it culturally, it'll come back out. But until then, I'll keep having the conversations until I find the right one.Dan Runcie 16:34That makes sense, because I think what we're talking about at the end of the day is just how valuable the IP and the brand is, and everything that you all had created, whether it's what you had done at Def Jam, or what you've now done this past decade with 300 and one of the things I've started to take notice to now is we're this way right now with media TV, where we're seeing all of these TV anthology series about the rise and fall of these tech companies. Right, we got the Theranos one, we got the WeWork one, we got the Uber one. And I want to see the same for the Def Jams and the Bad Boys. And I want to see all of that. And I feel like if we're having the conversations about the video games, it's only going to be a matter of time before we're going to see those as well. We want to get back to the early 2000s Def Jam or the Rockefeller run and see who would all play you all I feel like that's it has to be happening in at least a couple of years.Kevin Liles 17:27So one of the reasons why I created 300 Studios is because I haven't told full stories in a long time. And so you can check the credits for whether it was how high the show ended things that we did back in the day rush hour. And those things that we've been able to be a part of why did I get married a Tyler Perry was daddy's little girl and go down to this though, things that we've been able to help curate. There was a reason why I wanted him studios to not only tell the audio stories around 300, but I wanted to tell digital stories. And I had the great pleasure of finding Kelly Nolan. And they believe in the vision. And you know, within two years, we had our first doc on February 26 called Race, Bubba Wallace. And it was the only African American Cup Series driver and his trials and tribulations of not having any sponsorship to now winning races and changing the current federal flag and mascot. I didn't say hey, here's the script. But here's what's gonna happen NASCAR, here's what you're gonna have a guy come in and actually curate and trust in the brands of 2311 racing, you know, with Jordan, and Denny, Toyota, McDonald's DoorDash, all these things with the background of raising a young kid in a sport that you can't even afford to be in. You know, I mean, you just 20, $30 million, you have to have caused the crash. I know that. So again, I wanted to educate people on the sport but also wanted to take them on a journey that a lot of people have never taken with NASCAR. So I appreciate everything. And yes, there will be a story, there will be more Word docs. And I do plan because I'm going for decades in the business now telling the true stories of all of these iconic brands and iconic people and friends and people who shaped the world and conversation. I do plan on telling the story. Dan Runcie 19:14Yeah, I think people would love to hear that. I feel like that is where things are obviously heading with all of the IP that's being created. And I feel like especially for you all I mean, it's interesting now because we just see the histology of how everything is, you know, we're looking back and people are talking fondly about that late 90s, early 2000s run and it's only going to be a matter of time before people look back at this particular era. Not even just with hip hop, but music more broadly. And just seeing how many shifts this music industry has had. And I feel like the past few years, we're on the verge of another one as well. The revenue has been, you know, the highest that it's been at least since the CD era, and that I think has influenced a lot of these deals that we've seen and we're now seeing all This activity with web three NFTs and everything else. I mean, as someone who has seen it, you know the highs and the lows of it as you said, you know, you're definitely have the you know, be like water mentality. When that said, it must be really exciting to also see all the possibilities of where you could tap into.Kevin Liles 20:17Listen, all I can tell you, I was at the Super Bowl, the biggest stage in the world with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, 50 Cent, Mary J. Blige at the Super Bowl. So if you don't know the possibilities, we have the number one music in the world when they used to tell us, you'll be a fad. They used to say we play more music and less rap. Now everybody's saying we're just stationary hip hop, and Baba, Baba. And everybody when people didn't realize, and I'm sure they're not sure how old you are. But when I was in the car growing up, I was listening to the Temptations, and Diana Ross and Aretha Franklin because that's my Mom, listen to. But now, as adults, what we listen, I listen to hip hop. So that that's been for the last 30 years. So now you have hip hop parents, you have a President of the United States, in Iraq, who knows hip hop, you have mayors and governors and lordships and keep losing, that grew up on hip hop. So you have not seen the greatness of our culture, yet, you're starting to see the seeds being planted. I truly believe that with the continent coming into play with India, coming into play, these underdeveloped nations, oh, man, this will be so many stories to be told, in a way through a hip hop lens. So I'm just excited more say, I just hope they'll still let me be around. As long as God keeps giving these gifts, I'll stay with the rope.Dan Runcie 21:44I hear that, and I think the international expansion is just being so key to so many record labels, moving Making Moves, whether it's in India, in East Asia, in Africa, as well. And I know that you all have, you know, made moves in that perspective as well. What do you see is that opportunity, especially in the next few years? I mean, I know that having Warner behind can definitely help from an international push from that perspective. But what do you see as an opportunity.Kevin Liles 22:10 One of the biggest issues that I was having is I didn't have my Rolodex is 40,000 people, but I only had 75 people working for me, couldn't reach those, I got the calls from the biggest artists in France and the biggest artists in Germany and the biggest artist in London, and I couldn't serve them in a way that they need to be served. Remember, early on, I knew where hip hop was going, Leon Russell, we thought about your Def Jam UK, Def Jam Germany, Def Jam France, Def Jam Japan, we were just too early. And those countries did not have the voice. They didn't have their own voice. They were emulating what we were doing, because we were starting the creation of it. But now you go to any of those major territories, they have their own voice, the biggest artists in that territory is from that territory. It's not us coming there. And so as a proud steward of our culture, I think the opportunity is on steroids right now, because I'm going to be able to not only help artists, but also help creators and executives realize that set up their own iPhones in their own territories, because they can say shit 300 to do that. The guy was this is his third time. Oh, if they can do it, look what we could do. And so we're starting that also. So I can only thank again, you know, Max and Julie for believing in what we're creating, loving, independent spirit, but also remembering that Do It Yourself, DIY thing, nobody does it themselves. You know, that's like saying you gonna have a baby by yourself. No! You will get married by yourself. No, you don't do, you don't do anything by yourself. And there's not one global artists around the world that did it ourselves. So I believe in collaboration, I believe in partnership. But again, the mindset has to be independent.Dan Runcie 23:50I think the piece that you mentioned on the differences of when you're running Def Jam 20 years ago, versus now especially on the international front is key because as you mentioned, a lot of those regions didn't have the developed music ecosystem that they do. So it was often, forget your artists there as opposed to now they have their own superstars. What are some of the other major differences that you've experienced from now being a major label executive in this decade as opposed to what it was like for you Def Jam 20 years ago?Kevin Liles 24:23People didn't notice them. What the fuck was talking about? They didn't understand the cultural thing. They understood the numbers, but they didn't understand what I was somewhere why I would say no, I don't want to pay, when I want to go play a tape in London to small club that I will do that 10 times before I do it. They didn't understand why. I mean, even inside the company, he said, Well, we shouldn't take Trey Songz to London, because he doesn't have the big radio record there. And I'm like, people stream their people buy music. They're people and I know when I go there, and I'm doing 500,000 to 2000 or 5000 people in shows that they just do. He's not developed enough to understand that shit moves without all the triggers sometimes. And so it was funny. We went there, and somebody said, boot camp, you know, I know you want to play, you know, 5,000 seaters, but we sold out two nights on it. So maybe we should start playing arenas? And my answer was no because we're not ready for it yet. Let me keep curating keep going through the process. And seeing and I've seen bands that haven't had one hit, but they can sell out in a real way. And that that to me, I'm so excited. There's a young lady from the UK named Pink Patras that I'm so excited about where she's going her aesthetic who shipped to the capital labor, there's no label you can put on I'm excited that if you take a look at Megan Thee Stallion schedule for the next year, she's paying every major festival around the world. So think about what that what's that gonna do for her development, allow her to become a product of her experiences, not just her limited environment, think about what she's going to write. I remember a long time ago, Lulu, Chris and I went to Africa. And then I hate the song, the best women for Africa. Oh, yeah. Jay Z, and I took our first private plane. And then you start talking about the airport, you don't mean your first trip to the South of France, you don't mean? These are the experiences that allow for great storytelling that allow for evolution, not just of an artist, but also the narrative of the employees and executives that take those journeys with. Dan Runcie 26:30That makes me think too, about snooping around with the music and the beautiful music video and that spot a landmark, you know, like, people want to go there and take pictures and be like, No, I was as powerful. It really is. I mean, for me, one of the other things I think about too, that's just changed so much from you know, back when you're at Def Jam to now with 300 is because of streaming and the Internet and so much, now, people respect much more what you were trying to do then because they realize it and I think obviously streaming helped level a lot of the playing fields side, big hip hop and r&b soul. So many lot, so much black music was able to reach more of its true potential in terms of just how easily it could spread, because there's less gatekeepers, right. And I think I'm interested to see, okay, how that continues to go. And what are the things that may continue to rehab that, you know, whether it's boost further, or have it reach even more of its potential? Because to your point, I agree with that, we still haven't reached the maximum point or we still have it, you know, really been able to have the whole world really tap into what's happening here. So I'm curious to you know, as I'm thinking through what the next decade looks like, what are those things going to be the same way how, you know, streaming and social media help level the playing field for a lot of this genre of music like is whether it's, you know, Web 3.0, or NFTs or the Metaverse is that going to be the next thing that'll help even more of the hip hop artists in r&b and soul reach their full potential. Kevin Liles 28:01It's an output to you so straight that all that shit is good and as always, we evolution that we're going to go from the small two way pages to now the cell phone game and remote control, all that shit, technological change cassette to CD and all that stuff is gonna change our biggest power. And I'm a living example of it is when you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know. So that young people run a company, they don't know, they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, Oh, he the boss. So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really, this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world until the consumers today see a CEO that looks like them, act like them, talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. The C-Suite does not represent what we're selling, and until you get that you're not going to maximize it, but it's coming because I plan on my fucking changes. I'm gonna let them know now that guys, I'm nowhere near done. This is just a, I'm on chapter one. Fuck it. I don't care what what we say. And I'm going to make sure part of my legacy is to make sure I have planted enough seeds that you know, the next CEO, CEOs of tech companies and men of various and this first in that verse, whatever you want to call it, they have representation of a culture that's using it.Dan Runcie 29:38Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned this because I do think that that is what makes the change at the end of the day and that could influence so much it will influence so much. And I'd love to know what your perspective is on the movements or activities that the music industry has done on this front the past two years. So after George Floyd's murder, there was a bunch of announcements and funding that when after the show must be paused, and all of that in the call was exactly what you're saying, we need more black executives that are making decisions that are the ones that are really pushing this culture forward, especially since it's their culture that is making this industry what it is. So how do you feel that that progress has been since a lot of those announcements were made by the industry?Kevin Liles 30:25Not enough, and there's more work to be done. And it's one of the things that we hired a global diversity inclusion, the I would ever call officer named Dr. Smith. And when I came on, he's the first person to reach out, he said, we have $100 million, help me, help us change the world. We're not going to have a department, we're going to create the first-ever DEI Institute, and we're going to train people, we're going to go and find people in the organization and make them leaders in teaching cultural, cultural relevance, as far as it accompany cultural relevance and diversity of mindset and diversity of thought, not just color, we're going to find these change agents. No, I don't make this shit up. There's a lot of work to be done. But the reason that I'm at the more music group, and the reason I chose them is because Steve Cooper and Len Blavatnik have made in their mindset that we're going to change the world, and people who consume our products, who love our artists who buy our T-shirts, we want to have people in the C-Suite that look like them. And so that's a lot of fun work to be done. And once you're you know me, I'm not quiet. So I sit in the room and I tell everybody not charged. I said, “Guys, you can't announce $100 million and do things that don't change things.” Just not check the box. We're not doing it at the Warner Music Group. I never did it. I don't know how to check a box. I know how to create other boxes. I let everybody else do with it. Oh, we just did this? No, no, we created the DEI Institute around pingy equity, which is just amazing man, but a lot of work to be done all across the board. And I challenged every CEO, every chairman, every shareholder of a major corporations to challenge the company to allow that diversity to be in the C-Suite. It will change the company and it changing the company, will make more money. Dan Runcie 32:14Couldn't agree more. And I think too, this speaks to a lot of the work you've done, even you know, outside of just you know, running the music part of the record label, you've been active with HBCUs as a graduate of wind that you've wanted to make sure that mentorship programs and entrepreneurship supporting programs are there because you see that pipeline that you want to make sure that whether it's executives that want to go on to succeed in music or other places, the more that you can use your platform to help them the better off they'll be.Kevin Liles 32:44I think it's very important. I did a centennial raise from Golden State. Dr. Rosso, shout out to Florida State HBCU person myself, and we raised $250 million. So we knew that was the biggest institutional raise of HBCU went on to had a big conversation. I speak on a circuit a lot. And it had a big conversation around what's the pipeline to get to be a state's attorney, or a FBI special agent or a CIA, you know what, and really, I didn't know, I got to be a police officer. That's what I saw, you know, but I didn't know I don't be a basketball player, football fan, because that's what I saw. And so another program that I launched two years ago, I think, maybe last year is what I had 60 presidents of HBCUs meet with the head of the FBI, and to show that when George Floyd happened, when Freddy Gary happened, the FBI came, but people who were looking into it, when people like us, they wouldn't play for communities, there was no trust. So I want to make sure before I'm done, there will be somebody every place that will affect our culture, and have a cultural point of view, and not just a title point of view. And so that's been and I'm a big advocate of education and entrepreneurship, I believe the school system should be blown up. And we should be teaching more entrepreneurism, and not teaching people how to go work for somebody, but teaching people how to join and actually want to be change agents and not just employees. So I'm going to continue the big fight between 15 and do the work. And again, I don't do that by myself. So shout out to Dr. Smith.Dan Runcie 34:24That's good to hear. And I mean, I think you're right so much bad taps back into see where the pipeline they see how you can build it up in making sure that that leads to a promising career so people can whether it's they want to be their own boss or they want to do their own form of intrapreneurship whatever it is, the opportunities are there. One thing that I did want to talk about shifting back to music a bit. There's been an interesting movement I think happening right now where there is more of these, I call it the hip hop media personality that has come a bit more to rise and some of them You know, even some of the, you know, the artists that that 300 have definitely pushed back on some of these folks as well for someone, whether it's the things they've said or other things like that, it would be good to hear from your perspective, because I think this is not necessarily that these types of people didn't exist before. But I think social media obviously just makes the dynamic a little different. So what's your take on that dynamic?Kevin Liles 35:21No different than, we used to write on a graffiti walls now, we write it off Facebook, was used to hand out flyers and posters. Now you have Instagram and WhatsApp and this Snapchat and all these things. And when you talk about these personalities, you don't remember Starbuck while how they were. Dan Runcie 35:38They were wild. They were wild.Kevin Liles 35:41You don't remember how if you did any bit of R&B. You had to go to video. So with Donnie Simpson, you don't sit remember how sway and tech can wake up showing them what they were there. They just went on what one thing now with social media, it could be everywhere around the world. And we want those opinions. We want those pushbacks, we want those perspectives, because those things allow us to evolve as people we're not sociated for not some of them, we wouldn't be addressing some of the issues think about what Charlemagne and The Breakfast Club dude don't for mental health, you want that pushback, you want that conversation because we don't want to become stagnant as a people. And so to me, I put your nine out of 10 of my friends, Joe Biden, I signed him to be your I mean, Noriega, drink champion. Besides me, you don't mean to get Fat Joe, us you don't need to go down the list of these guys and girls around the world that have an actor that you need the crazy one, you need him to say what he wants to say, just to be thought-provoking, you know, but if you really get to know him, you know, he's Howard Stern, hip hop. That's his thing. And we don't want to do we don't not have a stern. There might be you do you're like it, you know, but you need the conversation. And I think even, what this happened with the Rogan guy, we need that conversation. As long as it is acceptable for you to use a word that you need the conversation the corporation's needed. And you need a Spotify to say, hey, we made an investment. We're gonna learn from this and teach from this, and you needed him to come on. I don't think he just apologize for his sponsors. I think that he felt that damn, you know, I never thought about it that way. Because I'm just repeating No, but even repeating is wrong. And so this is in the people that listen to him, trust me that backface was going on, they dress it up like this during all the shift is going on still. But I'm open. But I went all the smoke, bring me the motherfucking smoke because I want to have the conversation. I want to and the problem is we don't have the conversation. And so we operate in five items around things. No, I want to taste monster ball soup, which I want you to take some collard greens to I want you to go I want to go to the Trinidad festival and hang out Mardi Gras and all this. But yes, I want you to come to the hood celebration we build into the basketball is that to me, we don't have enough of the intermingling of cultures. And the lack of compensation has led to suicide, the lack of compensation has led to racism. And I knew when Barack Obama spent eight years I said, Oh, the next thing is gonna go left and be extremely other way. And then you got Donald Trump, I knew it was going to go in. But I also knew that we had to swing it back to the middle of the pendulum because he went too far left, and I can't wait to see some of the great leaders that will be born and find out of the conversation. You know, I always say we're living in biblical times. And was Moses, just a farmer competence was Job justice was married justice. No, damn, Max was the prophet. That shouldn't be a book of Acts, that shouldn't be a book of Jay, it shouldn't be a book of Todd. Because in these biblical times that we're in right now, when Moses parted the Red Sea for other people to get, there were some casualties of war. I gave my only begotten Son for us to move forward. And believe two people don't relate what we're going through as true biblical scriptures because we haven't put them all together. We call it the Bible. But there was a George Floyd in the Bible. There was a Freddie Gray in the Bible, and God bless their families and their soul. And all of them have taken on the mantle and said, his death, her death, this moment is meant to shift culture. It's meant to get people thinking a different way. And that's why again, I applaud all the noise, all the smoke, all the conversations that I have to have, and I do have a smile.Dan Runcie 39:30That's a good point because if we think about the evolution of Howard Stern, I think about the evolution of a Charlemagne there's kind of this like, you start off and you say, the stuff that makes you be like, What did he just say? And then like, a few years later, I mean, you listen to more recent Howard Stern interviews, I mean, he sounds like you know, almost like a therapist on the couch, like, you know, just talking through things and we said similar stuff about Charlemagne, given some of the books that he's written and just how much of a topic that is for him, and he definitely doesn't do interviews the way he did back in 2013. All right, is the evolution there? So thinking about it in that perspective, yeah, we'll be very interested to see like, where ACC or you know, where some of the others are, you know, seven years from now because I think I agree with you, you know, I don't necessarily think that, you know, he is a bad person or anything like that. I think if anything, it's more so this is a product of the internet and what everything has incentivized no different than, you know, Starbuck wild were incentivized to say wild shit on you know, power and you know, back in the day, and then now, you know, whether it's activated on twitch or on YouTube or whatever channel, yes. Kevin Liles 40:35You got to be doing it for rabies. He's doing it for reach. He's doing it. It's so much noise out there that you have to sometimes it's like, our chief innovative officer is Young Thug, so Young Thug, wearing a dress that people know I'm fashion, fashion shouldn't be limited, you know, but think about prints with his ass out. Think about Michael Jack and think about these guys. And again, why shouldn't we allow people to have an opinion to that that's the problem I have with a lot of people. People are really afraid of freedom. Because freedom comes check too, there's good and bad and freedom. But you're free. You're free to say and be and act and we should not judge. But we should know that people are doing things for certain reasons. The bigger your audience becomes, the bigger your reach, the bigger you become. And we can't just have Howard there by himself, can't get him broken down by itself. So what did they do to get there? What did they do to get there? I got Russell call me 10 times.Dan Runcie 41:35Oh, man, I do want to talk quick because yeah, I was gonna ask you about Thug being Chief Innovation Officer. So what does that role include? So what's what's on the agenda?Kevin Liles 41:45Change the world, change the perspective, change the conversation, changed the ideation process, don't limit yourself be as free of a person as you can be. And I actually run stuff by him. I'm thinking about doing a hot challenge with HBCUs. And my goal is to help these bands raise money. So I want to do $25 A night and campus did it. I did some around Pusha P and I kept that's not p. I said to him, I think we should do you know, I have family business. But I think you are the biggest family with lash out. So we made it out. When you have an innovative officer, there's no limitations. There's no job description, it’s to touch taste and tone of his very existence that allows people to come up with new ways and things to do. You know, when Mary J. Blige said good morning, gorgeous. It was therapy for that young person that gets bullied, but it was also therapy for her coming off the ship that she came off for. And I kept her I said, guys, this is not a song. This is going to help people get through life. And people have started adopting it and dads are now looking at their daughter saying good morning, gorgeous, looking at their wife that they take for granted in the morning, and saying good morning. Gorgeous. I don't make this shit up. Everybody, be free. And Thug, I'll check with you later on about what I'm thinking about next. Make sure I got the cool factor on it. Dan Runcie 43:08Love it. Yeah, make sure he doesn't treat you like that pirate. He said, Alex, you're up.Kevin Liles 43:15You couldn't make shit up. You couldn't make none of this up. You know what I mean,Dan Runcie 43:19It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, perfect timing for that. I mean, and just lining up with the album and everything. That was perfect.Kevin Liles 43:25But it was not scripted. It was really cool. People started to show up the shows without you posted this thing. Dan Runcie 43:36Oh, man, that's what you know, you got a movement as well. You know, you got something. I will. Kevin, this has been great. Before we let you go though, is there anything else that you want to plug? Let the travel audience know about that 300 Hands on Deck.Kevin Liles 43:49I don't know if it's a plug. But I'm in search of the truth. There's a lot of talent in the world. And the reason why I feel what it means we partnership 300, Electra Entertainment, Sparta, 300 Studios, I'm creating possibilities and platforms for you guys to come and help change the world. So I would just like to enlist your audience to say you don't just have to be an artist. You don't have to just do marketing, or digital or finance or legal. There is some place for you with us. And so I'm sure I'll come in and hang out and you and I finally get in the same space. We can have a dinner, but let's keep the narrative or where we going not where we were.Dan Runcie 44:33Sounds good. And yeah, let's definitely do it. And Kevin, thanks again for coming on. And congrats to you again on great start to the year, big sale and everything. Keep trailblazingKevin Liles 44:42God bless you, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.Dan Runcie 44:44Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Dazayah Walker is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music, the label behind today’s most trendsetting artists like Lil Baby and Migos, Dazayah. She maintains QC’s investment portfolio, particularly within the startup space, which spans well beyond just music and entertainment. Being a 23-year-old venture capitalist is difficult as is. Now tack on being female and black? “It’s been a journey”, as Dazayah Walker shares with us in this episode of the Trapital podcast.Dazayah’s path to becoming a Venture Capitalist is as unorthodox as you’ll find in the venture capital world, but she’s stuck to the same principles that got her that opportunity to begin with — seeking out mentors, surrounding herself with a supportive community, and taking the learning process day-by-day. Before overseeing QC’s investments, Dazayah worked on the music side for the label. She began as an intern for QC, and worked her way through the ranks at the same time QC was taking the music industry by storm. Not only is Dazayah breaking down doors, but she’s also trying to leave them open for future aspiring VC’s with similar unconventional backgrounds. As Dazayah continues to learn the ins and outs of venture capital, she plans on creating initiatives to educate others about the world she operates in. To hear Dazayah’s future ambitions, plus everything else we covered in the show, reference the video chapters below: [0:00] Dazayah’s goals with her role[2:13] Dazayah’s Transition Into Venture Capital[5:29] What Is QC’s Investment Thesis? [6:35] The Pros And Cons Of Involving QC Artists Into Investments[9:16] What Does Dazayah Look For In A Company Before Investing? [10:49] QC Investing Beyond Just Music and Entertainment [10:45] Dazayah’s particular interest in Fintech[12:56] QC’s and Dazayah’s Involvement With Techstars[14:48] The Challenge Dazayah Faced Breaking Into The VC World[16:04] What Programs Have Helped Dazayah Adjust To The VC World? [17:40] What Was Behind QC’s Investment Into Riff? [18:50] QC’s Investment Portfolio Explained [20:00] “You Can Do This Too And This Is How”[23:30] Music-Wise, What Is Dazayah Most Excited About QC In Near Future?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Dazayah Walker, @dazayah   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands-----------Dazayah Walker 00:00Finding success here and having a strong track record and proven portfolio and then be able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too, and this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 00:23Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Dazayah Walker, Head of Investments and the Operations Manager at Quality Control Music. This is an exciting role to have at a time like this. QC has been on a run the past few years and has really shaped what hip hop is sounded like, from artists like Migos, to City Girls, to Lil Baby, and then on the other side of this hip hop investing activity is growing faster than ever, and we're seeing more and more artists getting ICAP tables, getting involved with deals. So it's a really exciting time to have a role like this. I talked with Dazayah about what it's been like from her perspective, and representing and getting roles not just for QC as a firm, but for the artists that they represent, and how she has navigated the record label growing as fast as it has the past few years to venture capital landscape and how she's been able to navigate that and a whole lot more. Had a great conversation with her. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Dazayah Walker. All right, we got Dazayah Walker here today, who is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music. Dazayah, welcome to the pod. Dazayah Walker 01:42Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Let's do this. Dan Runcie 01:46Yeah, so one of the things that stuck out to me about you and your career, you had started as an intern at QC, and you've risen up the ranks there as the label as not just a record label, but as an entertainment company. And now with a corporate venture arm or brollies just continue to grow and expand. Dazayah Walker 02:05Yes. Dan Runcie 02:06Walk me through the steps. What was it like from when you started to where it is now, just with how fast things have been growing there? Dazayah Walker 02:13Yeah, it's been a great journey and experience for me, with this being my first job. There's been a lot of learning curves with that in itself. But it was definitely a privilege and a great opportunity to be able to see the growth of QC, because we've expanded in so many different ways since I started as an intern, and being able to be a part of that, witness that, learn from that I couldn't be in a better position. Dan Runcie 02:36And is there anything specific with the role that you have now that had drawn you to it or something specifically because I know you had started a bit more focused on operations? And then now we're obviously seeing much more on the investment side. But was there something about that opportunity that pulled you in? Dazayah Walker 02:52Yes, so getting to this side was definitely a path of, I would say divine ordering because me entering the opportunity at QC. Starting as an intern, I thought I just wanted to do music, work my way up to being a music industry executive. But as I became more in the groove, and learning more of the things that I like, things that I don't like, I really had to find my place. And when I discovered what venture capital was, because when I was at Spelman, I was an economics major. So I kind of have like, I've always been surrounded by that when I was in school, just the finance, track and everything like that. But me venturing into music was me following my passion or what I thought was my passion at that time. So when I discovered what venture capital was, it was actually kind of crazy to me that I hadn't learned about it when I was in school, considering the impact that Morehouse, our brother institution has, as far as their representation of black men in venture capital. It was just crazy to me that I was at an institution right across the street and had no idea that this industry even existed. So when I stumbled across VC and began learning about it, I just saw the opportunity for artists, athletes and entertainers to be involved and was curious as to why more people that look like us aren't represented in those spaces. So that's when you know, my research and dedication to being in this position really started. And then from there, you know, bringing that idea and really helped become what we're building today with quality Ventures has been amazing. Dan Runcie 04:26So talk to me about that piece about bringing this idea together. So was it you seeing the opportunity and seeing how much of a disconnect there was and then going into the team at QC to be like, hey, there's something big here and we have talent here that could be just as influential. Dazayah Walker 04:42Yes. So it was a moment where I had to really think about what legacy do I want to have, what value do I want to add, and being in this position, you know, I built relationships with, you know, our entire team. So I was somebody that, you know, they trusted and when I, you know, have something to say they were listening, and you know, they embraced any idea or anything that I had. So by, you know, telling them and showing them, you know, the opportunity that exists for us in this space, it was well-received. And now here we are deploying capital, making investments. And my goal is really for us to have that same little level of influence and impact that we have in music in the venture capital space, as well. So having that same strong presence and footprint in that industry, too.Dan Runcie 05:29So what does that thesis look like? What does that investment goal look like for QC specifically, because I'm sure it's more than just the financial aspect? There's the pitch and how it can help intersect and how the music itself and everything you're doing on the media and entertainment side can help with the venture opportunity too?Dazayah Walker 05:48Absolutely, so our biggest thing is adding value, adding strategic value. So for us being in a unique position of being that entity that defines culture and creates culture, I feel like we're uniquely positioned to leverage our artists and our athletes to really help grow these companies that we see as potential winners.Dan Runcie 06:11And are there ever any specific moments where folks are reaching out? And there's, of course, the interest in having QC on the cap table, but then people reaching out about specific artists, whether it's like, oh, well, we want to have City Girls on here, specifically, or we want to be able to have a Lil Baby on here? How has it been with that piece of advice, I'm sure that could be an interesting discussion, especially from your landscape with all of that. Dazayah Walker 06:35So that happens a lot as well. And it all boils down to seeing if the artist even aligns with what you're building. Because when you're working with early stage, or pre-seed stage companies, that may be the very first version of whatever they're building, there's so many more iterations yet to happen. And as the entity continues to grow, and transform, the artists that they thought may be ideal for what they're building as a representation may not be as they continue to, you know, redefine what it is that they're building. So yes, you know, we get opportunities all the time for our artists, which was another reason why, like the opportunity to bridge the gap and intersect music and technology was so evident and clear to me, you know, to pursue and to do, because those opportunities and those deals are always flowing. But really being in a position being someone that knows how to evaluate those opportunities, and educate, you know, the artist, or the athlete or whoever may be to let them know, like, this is why this is a good, you know, opportunity or something to look at and this is why it isn't.Dan Runcie 07:41I also imagine that there's likely people that may be reaching out because they may want just the exposure that may come right, they may be like, “Oh, well, if y'all invest can Lil Baby, give us a shout out for the product on some song. And I could see there being you know, some pushback on that, because obviously, you all would see the opportunity as being greater than that.” But how was that piece of it been? Because I know, I've heard similar from folks in the entertainment space when they're looking to have not just celebrities, but artists specifically on the cap table.Dazayah Walker 08:13Well, personally, I don't think a founder having that mindset is necessarily wrong because in the VC ecosystem now, capital isn't an issue. So getting the money having people to, you know, write a check for you isn't the hard part. It’s actually once you get that money, how can you use that, you know, relationship that you now have to help build your company or grow whatever it is that you're building. So I feel like a founder having that perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you want to have partners that can help you grow your company and add value in different ways. So if there is an opportunity for an artist, if it's something that they really love, you know, to be an ambassador for it, and to push it.Dan Runcie 08:58So when you're evaluating startups, and when you're evaluating artists, or not artists, founders, specifically, what are you looking for, like, what is your criteria set? And what are those things whether it's tangible or intangible that you're looking for that clears that over the hurdle to be like, Yes, this is what we want to invest in?Dazayah Walker 09:16So I would break it down into three things. The first thing I would say, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Is this a problem that is unique to you and from like, or where you're from? Or is this a problem that is affecting a wide market of people? So first, understanding the problem, and if the solution that they're attempting to build is a solution for the greater good? The second thing is really understanding their team, like, who do you have helping you build this? What people do need a position to help you build it? And like how much traction Have you gotten so far. And the first, and I think the most important thing is the founder, when you're working with companies that are likely pre-revenue, maybe they have a very, very early version of their product, you're placing a bet on the founder. So knowing the type of person to look for, or the type of characteristics to look for in a founder, I think are very important. Somebody that is determined, somebody that is all in like willing to make the investment themselves because how do you expect me or someone to make an investment when you haven't even, you know, fully invested yourself in this in this idea? So I will say those are the top three things that I look at when I meet with founders and new companies.Dan Runcie 10:33That makes sense. And then in terms of the industries themselves, is there any type of sector that you're particularly looking for, or any other type of industry that you feel is most aligned with what QC or Quality Ventures is after?Dazayah Walker 10:49Yeah, so as a company, Quality Ventures isn't looking in specific industries and verticals. I know a lot of people think since you know, we have Quality Control Music, we're looking strictly at music-based companies and startups. And that's not necessarily true. Like I said, our whole thesis is really about us being in a position to add value. But for me, specifically, I really like looking at fintech companies, I think that Fintech is the next market to really boom so paying attention to the trends, paying attention to what people are saying, paying attention to what problems are they need to be solved. So for me personally, the industry of interest to me is fintech.Dan Runcie 11:28And what is it about fintech specifically that sticks out to you or interest you?Dazayah Walker 11:32I like it because I think it's time for a change as far as how money is viewed, how money is moved. Like I know, you probably have seen how crypto, everybody's talking about crypto, and preparation for the metaverse, like, all of those things are happening strategically. And by being aware of what's happening in fintech, you know how the money is moving what the future of money and finances look like. So that you can kind of put yourself in position to not only be educated about it but know how to make your next move when it comes to what the future looks like.Dan Runcie 12:05Right? That makes sense. And I think especially when you look more broadly at the definition of FinTech, and you look at companies like Coinbase, and you look at some of the partnerships that they've had with organizations like the NBA, or even the United Masters, there's clearly an alignment where even if it isn't in the quote-unquote, entertainment landscape, this touches so much. So that's why I think you see so many artists and companies in this space that want to tap into all these areas, even if they're not necessarily what you may think is in that industry. Dazayah Walker 12:38Exactly. Dan Runcie 12:39And with that, I mean, for you, I know that another partnership that QC has, at least on the investment side, from what I've seen is in Techstars Music, and I saw that you're a mentor there and that QC more broadly as a partner. So how has that experience been?Dazayah Walker 12:56It's been amazing. Just the Techstars music team in general have been a great like resource for us. So when the program, when we joined the program last year, we kind of were thrown in when things were already in motion, like they were already preparing for demo day, the companies in the cohort were already selected. But now I was able to be a part of the process of you know, picking the companies for the new cohort, being a part of like all the member meetings and the mentor meetings. So with me still being in a very early part of my career, I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and experience new things. And Techstars has been an amazing teacher for me. Just seeing things from that perspective, working with an accelerator, like working with founders and seeing them in that perspective has definitely helped me I feel like become a better venture capitalist, just seeing things from different angles and different perspectives. Because honestly, once I made the decision to transition into venture capital, I was a little discouraged because I am entering it through a very unconventional background. So any opportunity that I have to learn and observe and ask questions, it's been amazing, because it's been it's been a rough journey for me to be able to confidently say, this is what I'm doing. I know that I'm uniquely qualified to do that thing, and, you know, moving like that. So it's been a journey, Dan, I tell you,Dan Runcie 14:22I could imagine I mean, there are not many people that look like you that are doing this type of work. And when you compound that with what people already may assume is standard for what they expect for people working at, the type of company you work at that just compounds it further. I mean, what are some of the things that you had done early on to try to, you know, either break through that or try to navigate that the best, and I could only imagine how tough that could be at times.Dazayah Walker 14:50Yeah, I would definitely say reaching out to people asking questions, really being a sponge, absorbing as much information and knowledge as I can. Because making this pivot into an entire new industry is scary, because like, I built my network in my name and music. And now, I feel like making a career shift almost as still such an early point in my career was very, very scary. But some of those same like tactics and things that I did to be successful or reach the level of success that I had in music, I applied those same principles to me, you know, trying to achieve a level of success in venture capital. So really finding mentors and finding a community to learn from to be supported by and to be supportive of, and just taking things day by day. And knowing that every day is an opportunity to learn something new, and, you know, not taking opportunity for granted because I know I'm in a very unique and special position. And I'm grateful for the position that I'm in. So really showing people why I, you know, I'm deserving of the role that I've been placed in.Dan Runcie 16:04Definitely. And I also think, too, whether it's programs like HBCU, VC, and obviously, you representing that being an alum from HBCU them recognizing that this is a pipeline that not only is a challenge, but how can they help bridge that gap? And, you know, are there any specific organizations, whether it's like that or others that have been helpful for you as you've gone along this path?Dazayah Walker 16:26Yeah, so definitely HBCU BC, considering I was a fellow, that was an amazing program with amazing teachers, and I've really been able to, like tap into that community, which has been amazing. Another community that I'm really grateful for is Black VC and the Black Venture Capital Consortium, both of those organizations have been super supportive and welcoming of me. And it's things like that, that are very important for not even just me being a young black woman, but you know, being a person of color trying to enter another space that is male-dominated, white-male-dominated. So just having that comfort of knowing that there are people that support you and want to uplift you and see you do amazing things.Dan Runcie 17:11Yeah, definitely. I could see that for sure. I could see that. Well. Let's circle back quick. I do want to talk about some of the public investments that you've made. I know that Riff was one of them, that you all were in, was that one of them? Riff, yes. Okay. So what was the process like for that investment? What was it that attracted you about that company?Dazayah Walker 17:31Well, Riff isn't one that I necessarily, like found from the beginning and worked all the way to the point where we cut the check. But Riff has been an amazing company in our portfolio, I'm super excited for what they're building, just seeing them being disruptive and combining elements that we as consumers love, I'm really excited for the journey of Riff and being able to be a great partner to them, and just seeing them grow. And you know, being along that journey in that ride with them, but they're definitely building something amazing. And I'm excited for, you know, the masses to really, you know, tap into it, learn about it, and really get engaged with it.Dan Runcie 18:10Yeah, I can see that. Are there any that are public that you've worked on that you can talk more about?Dazayah Walker 18:17Yeah, so one of my favorite companies in our portfolio, which is actually one of the companies from the previous class of Techstars. It's called Faith. And this is one that I really, really loved. Because not only did our relate to like the platform, just to give you a little bit of background Faith is an app for fans. It allows fans to come together and really live within their fandom. And with me being a past fangirl, I immediately fell in love with what she was building. And the founder, she's a black woman, she's a solopreneur, which is a challenge in itself. So just seeing what she's built so far, the amount of traction that she's received, and just how far she has come has been super inspirational for me, you know, being involved, even in like the due diligence and saying, I think this is a great company, I think this is one that we really should pay attention to, to the point of us actually deploying capital to that company. That was super cool, and really amazing. And that's another company in our portfolio that I'm super excited about. And I feel like not only will my generation, like, enjoy the app, but the generation underneath me will as well, so…Dan Runcie 19:23Nice. That makes sense. Yeah. And I feel with apps like that in platforms. I mean, not only do you have the direct connection, but I'm sure you being able to have the connection to it. I mean, these are the type of things obviously it's still early stage, you know, but gets marked up you continue to have that influence over it and you never know where that could take you. I feel like that's kind of the exciting thing, especially for the people I talk to you that are that start their careers in VC, as opposed to the other way around the, you know, the folks that may have done something on the product side and then go into vc.Dazayah Walker 19:56Yeah, but my goal overall, really is to, you know, find my groove in this and really, you know, find success for myself and I define success within this space is being able to invest in companies, have exits, and you know, have a strong portfolio, so that I can get to the point where I'm able to educate and inform, because I feel like, part of the reason why a lot of artists, athletes, and entertainers, which is, you know, the people that I'm used to working with and being around, which is why I really strongly urge them to get into this space, and why I feel like I'm in the position, and the person to really do that work, is because they don't know, like, there's that kind of barrier. Like they may see things on social media of other artists that have invested in Gods, you know, there's money back, but really having someone there to educate them and be that bridge and that conduit from, you know, them being in the position and the level of influence, and you know, the reach that they have, and showing them and being that person to bring deals to them to help them leverage that so that not only are they able to, you know, be represented in this space, but build generational wealth for them and their families. Like that's the bigger picture. And that's the goal for me. And that's the work that I really want to do and look forward to doing. So finding success here and having a strong, like track record and proven portfolio, and then being able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too. And this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 21:32Yeah, that's powerful. Because I feel like especially for you or you're in your position now. There's a lot of people that I'm sure look at you being like, oh, Dazayah, how can we get in that? Like, how do you were able to, you know, connect those dots. And then you obviously, you know, I'm sure you feel like you're deep into yourself, you're learning as you're continuing to grow. But you know that in the near future, you will be able to have enough. And that can look like a number of things, whether that's a course or some other type of platform to just share and disseminate this information. Because not only is it important for people to hear it, it's important for people to hear it from people who you know, look like you they if you want to inspire, you know, especially if there's black women across the country across the world, I want to hear it, the more folks that could share their experience, the better that is.Dazayah Walker 22:16Absolutely, I agree 100%. Like, the more you know, the better position that you can put yourself in. And I just think it's a lack of knowledge, people just not knowing, like, what these things mean, how to get in on deals, how much to invest, like, there's so many layers to it. And I feel like if people were a bit more comfortable, they'd be more open and investing their money in other ways than the traditional stocks and bonds or, you know, how people see fit to save their money or invest their money, I should say. Dan Runcie 22:47Yeah, especially now I feel like we're seeing things like whether it's the accredited investor rule or other things just continuing to be challenged, we're gonna see more and more people investing the definition of an investor and who can get involved with things. As those barriers continue to lower, the options increase. And when that happens, it just provides more space for education. So yeah, you're definitely on the right track with all that stuff has ever said. 100%Dazayah Walker 23:13Thank you. That really means a lot. Thank you.Dan Runcie 23:16Yeah, well, um, I know that, you know, we've covered a lot in this. But before we let you go, I do want to get a quick take from you on what are you most excited for? What's coming through the QC portfolio for the rest of 2022? And I guess portfolio, that'd be more on the artists side. Specifically, what are you excited for on that front. Dazayah Walker 23:36I'm just excited for the continued growth of Quality Control as an empire. It hasn't even been 10 years that QC has been in existence. And for us to have made so much leeway, create so much history have so much impact within that 10-year window. I'm excited to see what the next five years look like for us. But even just in the next year, in the next 12 months, I'm excited to see the continued growth and effort of our team, like our team has grown dramatically. So if we were able to do and accomplish so much with such a small team, I'm excited to see what the next 12 months look like for our expansion and our growth and just everything to come and everything that we're building, publicly and silently. I'm just grateful for the position that I'm in and be able to be a part of that and even say those things. So the next year it's going to look like a lot of wins continued success and growth and expansion for all of us.Dan Runcie 24:38That's exciting. I feel like the past decade for QC has been incredible. I think it's so tough for indie labels to be able to have that type of run in the fact that they have says a lot. So I'm excited. I mean, as a fan of all of this, I'm excited to see what happened. But yeah, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?Dazayah Walker 25:00I should say this is great, Dan, I absolutely love what you're doing what you're building, you're spreading a message that needs to be heard by so many. And you're not only inspiring me, but you're inspiring people that you may not even know that you're touching. So keep doing the work that you're doing. This was awesome. Thank you so much.Dan Runcie 25:19Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. We'll do. Thanks, Dazayah.Dazayah Walker 25:23All right. Thank you, Dan.Dan Runcie 25:28 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Take a quick look at Frank Cooper’s resume and you might think, “what HASN’T he done?” He’s both Berkeley- and Harvard-educated. Coming out of school, Frank cut his teeth with two iconic labels — Motown Records and Def Jam. And most recently, he’s been Chief Marketing Officer for world-renown brands like Pepsi, BlackRock, and breaking news, he just took the same role with VISA.  But if you ask Frank, his early years inside the music industry formed the backbone of his illustrious career. It’s during this time period where Frank developed cultural aptitude — and specifically, how to connect larger societal needs with brands he’s led. Frank’s unique pedigree that spans music, entertainment, and finance makes his views on business all the more fascinating. And believe me, Frank has a lot of thoughts about today’s ever-changing music landscape — whether it’s in the inflow of capital or the ripples that Web 3.0 will create. Here’s all the talking points Frank and I covered on today’s episode of Trapital:Episode Highlights[2:12] How Working In The Music Industry Laid The Foundation For Frank’s Career[6:37] Differences Between Hip Hop and Grunge Rock In The Mid ‘90s[8:15] How O.G. Artists “Set The Table” For Today’s Artist Entrepreneurs [11:56] How Frank Put Together Beyoncé and Pepsi $50 Million Deal [15:45] Frank Reviews The Latest Super Bowl Halftime Show (And Names The Best One Of All Time)[20:35] Helping Blackrock Create A New Purpose Statement Beyond Purely Profit[23:48] How The Big Short Movie Convinced Frank To Join The Financial Industry [26:22] Frank’s Thoughts About NFTs, Metaverse, And Web 3.0[29:37] Early Tech Adoption Among Hip-Hop Artists Over The Years[31:05] Does Frank Own Anything In His Digital Wallet?[34:05] Frank Thinks Some Brands Are Too Early To Web 3.0[37:18] Frank’s Harvard Business Review About Diversity In The Workplace[38:18] Clarence Avant’s Influence On Frank’s Career[43:17] What’s One Of The Best Pieces Of Advice Frank Has Ever Received?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Frank Cooper III  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands______________Frank Cooper 0:00  I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it's filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know? People's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation, but I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical.Dan Runcie 0:25  Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Frank Cooper, who is just named the new Chief Marketing Officer at Visa. Frank and I recorded this episode before the announcement, so we didn't talk about it here. But I was glad to have Frank on because his experience has been so deep in entertainment, in branding and in marketing. Dating back to his time as an executive at Motown, Def Jam, and then more recently, his time with Pepsi, Buzzfeed and BlackRock. And when you think about his career, it is the perfect combination of understanding brands, what they can learn from the entertainment space and how he's brought that to each sector, which is why it was so relevant to have him on this podcast. We talked about some of the deals he had done with Beyonce and other major artists. We also talked about broader trends with marketing, brands, what they can learn from creators, why financial literacy is so important for Frank and a whole lot more. Had a great time talking with him. Hope you enjoy this one. Here's my chat with Frank Cooper.All right, today, we got Frank Cooper with us, who is a longtime marketing executive, currently CMO at BlackRock, but you started your career in the music industry, which I always love to see. So, it will be great to start there with you first, welcome. It's great to have you. Frank Cooper 2:11  Thanks, Dan. Great to be here.Dan Runcie 2:12  Yeah, it'd be great to start off with the music career piece of it, because you worked at Motown and you worked at Def Jam as well. And you worked at both of those labels at pretty influential times for them. What stands out most to you from that time? What are you most proud of?Frank Cooper 2:26  Wow! Well, you know, first of all, it's funny because people say you came from the music industry, how are you connecting this to what you're doing, whether that was at PepsiCo, or here at BlackRock, and I got to tell you, those are some of the most foundational experiences that have shaped pretty much everything that I've done since. And when I think back to Motown, Motown was, was interesting, because, you know, Motown early on was all about assimilation, right? It's about taking black culture and cultivating it in such a way that it can appeal broadly. You know, and how the music sounds, the way they walk, the way they talk, etc. It gave you Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, and Marvin Gaye. And that worked really well. In the 90s, it became more about how to evolve that. And so, I thought it was a really interesting juncture. And I was really excited to be there because, you know, at that time, people didn't really want to talk about pure assimilation. They want to be authentic to themselves. And so how do you take that Motown ethos and make it work within, you know, the culture of that time. And, you know, at the time we had Boyz II Men, ABC, and Queen Latifah, and it was fascinating to see that I think we're still at that juncture where R&B still trying to find its place, honestly, and we can talk more about that. But I think Motown at that time became a symbol for how to evolve RMB in a way that fit the culture of the day. Def Jam was completely the opposite. And people look back at it. People today think it was inevitable, they think, you know, hip hop's the number one genre across the world and it seems inevitable, but at the time, some people were wondering whether hip hop at the last, you know, there's: Hey, is this a fad or not? And what I loved about it was that those who were in that game, those were at Def Jam at the time; you understood that this was not just about the music, it's about the deep cultural sensibility that actually propelled that whole genre, you know. Doing it on your own, operating outside of the mainstream, overcoming struggle, and teaching people how to overcome struggle. And so, for me, that became like the most invigorating part of being there Def Jam, and you just saw artists come through that at the time were just creating incredible momentum. You know, we had the month of the man with Method Man and Redman, now we had Jay-Z come through Kanye, you know, and DMX. And it was just this massive kind of momentum that kept building and it all for me at least reinforced this idea of them at their best. They're teaching people how to overcome struggle. And by the mid-90s, what I thought was the most interesting law and that's probably why they in the history of music, one of the more interesting time periods because you had the flannel shirts up in Seattle, the grunge movement happening. And that was had a lot of momentum, and you had hip hop, and you look at the trajectory of those two genres; they went completely in the opposite direction. And grunge was purely about suburban angst, you know, you know, like: Oh, my God, you know, I don't have meaning in you know, what do I do? And I'm not trying to belittle it, but that's kind of where the center of gravity was. And meanwhile hip hop I was like, how do we win, despite the fact that the mainstream has their foot out trying to trip us up? How do we win? How do we get past it? How do we overcome struggle? How do we do it on our own? And to me, that's what I remember more than anything else. And then finally, the artists that I've connected with the most, were the ones that actually embraced that the most, I loved Chuck D and Public Enemy, you know, and took the Public enemy to me, you know, representative, probably the more extreme version of that. I love Jay-Z, and how can you not love Jay-Z and what he's accomplished? And then some people may, you know, Kanye West, Kanye is Kanye. But Kanye, to me is genius. Because Kanye was able to change our sensibility of what hip hop could be, you know, at that time. He was using music sources that others weren't using, he was using voice in a different way. The lyrics were not as combative as some others, they gave expanded the universal what was possible in hip hop. And I think Kanye played a central role in that. And so, I really have a lot of respect for him and what he did at that time for Def Jam, and I've always carried it with me.Dan Runcie 6:37  That piece about the artists specifically in the grunge era and in hip hop at that same time, I think it's so key because when people talk a lot about Gen X and Generation X, I think the first thought that may go to people's minds is not just grunge with thinking of the image of Kurt Cobain, or you know, something a Billy Corgan from The Smashing Pumpkins, or one of those in all of what they embodied. But on the other side of that ice cube, Dre and Snoop Dogg are also Gen X and have a very different vibe in terms of what they wanted their music to represent. Not that angst isn't something that they didn't have in their young 20s as well. But it was a very different way of communicating their reality, their experience, and I think people don't always necessarily connect that when they talk about Gen X, at least it in a mainstream way. Frank Cooper 7:27  No, Dan, I think that’s exactly right. And, and you know, what's fascinating is that they both were, both those genres, were tackling the same problem, right? They both looked out and said: Man, these traditional institutions are kind of failing us. I can't rely on them as much as I used to. The definition of success that's been put out there, that's something that I adhere to. They were fighting against the same things, but they took two different paths. And I personally believe that the reason, one of the reasons why hip hop prevailed in that is because it helped you to move forward, you know. If you were, it was invigorating, it would inspire you to try to move forward, not to wallow in any kind of sadness. And I think there's value in that too. But it was about: Okay, it is what it is. Now, how do we move forward? Yeah, make it happen on your own. And they did it not only in the lyrics, they did it in the entirety of their behavior. You know, that's when you started to see the artists become entrepreneurs, you started to see them actually extend their brand and to other businesses. And they built an enterprise, each of these ones of those that were successful to build an enterprise based on the music. And that, to me has become the blueprint, a blueprint for how artists are thinking about it today. Even if you fast forward to this current line. I've never seen this much money flow into music, you know, investors, now buying out catalogs, and we're part of that too, we announce a recent partnership with influence media, Lylette Pisarro and René McLean. But I've never seen this much money flow into music. But to me, it's an extension of what hip hop started, which is there is no inauthenticity in. You're getting paid, you can get paid, you can cash a check, you can extend your business in a variety of ways, and still remain true to yourself. And I think many people today who are reaping the benefits of that should look back to the early days of hip hop and fake and thank those artists. Dan Runcie 9:21  And I think that speaks a lot to your career as well. Because you were able to take your experience. You saw the potential of what these artists could do with their brands. And then you were able to work with a lot of the brands themselves to help bring those artists to the forefront and be: Hey, you can help tell the story for this brand. We can help augment not just what you're doing, but help this brand do it as well. And especially in that time in the 2000s- 2010s, we started to see more, and more that you're at the forefront for so much of that.Frank Cooper 9:50  Yeah, you know, one thing that always bothered me when I saw celebrity sponsorships and endorsements and advertisements, it was purely transactional. People would say, you know: I'll write a check to these artists and put them in my commercial. And we'll have the most beautiful drink shot and this commercial, they're like: Oh, closer, closer, closer here, beautiful. We've captured it, we won. But most fans and consumers, they understand that game. And they're like: You know what, I'm glad that ours cut that check, beautiful thing, and I'm happy for that. But I don't believe there's any real connection between that artist and the brand or that product. And therefore, that was completely wasted money. And so, the angle that I took when I took it is that I knew that virtually every celebrity that I've ever met, they all have their own aspirations. They want to do certain things that they cannot do within their current industries, there's always an artist, a filmmaker who wants to make a certain kind of film that they can't make. There’s an artist that wants to do a certain song or put it out in a certain way that they can't do, or they want to extend into new areas. And so, I spent most of my time trying to understand: What are their aspirations? What are they trying to accomplish that they can't accomplish to their own ecosystem? And found that connection point to what we wanted to do. And to me that was the unlock, is like, if I can find that shared aspiration, then I can start to express shared values, shared experiences, a shared worldview that was true. And to me, if you can capture that you don't always win on it. But if you can capture that, that's gold. And I tried to do that across, you know, as many artists as I could.Dan Runcie 11:25  Yeah. And I think even that breakdown that you had, you're seeing more of the good examples. Now just seeing some of the great deals that come through, you're still seeing some of the ones that you may shake your head out, whether it's the Instagram posts, or they're just getting a check for something. But in general, you're starting to see more of the long-term value add. And I feel like the Beyonce deal that you had done with Pepsi specifically, that feels like one that falls more in line with there's a longer-term opportunity here to really highlight and tell that story.Frank Cooper 11:56  Yeah, you know, it's funny, because when I first started having the conversations with Beyonce and her team, I was like: Okay, this is a long shot, you know. Beyonce was very particular, and rightly, and, you know, reluctant to do anything that didn't fit what she truly believed and didn't fit her values. So, I spent a lot of time with the team trying to understand what they wanted to accomplish. And you know, her part of her genius, I think she's genius on many levels, but part of it is, she understood that she wanted to release things in ways that artists have not done before. And she wanted to create content that complemented the music in ways that artists have not done before, like a visual album. And so, we can help with it, you know, we can help launch the album, we've got millions of packages that are going out every day. And so, what if we did a bespoke design in those packages, and it relates to your album. What if we actually helped fund that visual album. What if we helped put your single out, but most important what if you got in front of 120 million people in the Super Bowl halftime, and then release something after that, you know, it became the most powerful ad possible for you to drive sales of your album. And that's really what made the connection because, you know, if I went to Beyonce in our team and said: Here's a piece of paper, I'm going to slip it across the table to you, and there's a number on here that should make you fall out and excitement. I still would not have considered that there would never have happened, there was no doubt in my mind, there was no amount of money alone that would get convinced her to do it. But it was understanding what she was trying to accomplish and how we could participate in that in a way that benefited both of us. And so that's one for me, one of the most extraordinary deals that I've been involved in, but also one of the most extraordinary experiences because I've learned in part why she is so good. And it was driving me crazy at the time. But she was 100%, right? You know we did, we did a commercial. And what I didn't realize is that, but you look at the commercial and say: Hey, make some edits here, there. She looked at it herself, frame by frame. And then she broke down the arc. And then she, I mean, she was into it and intense. And what I realized is not just Beyonce; with other artists, I’ve seen it with Snoop, you know, Nicki Minaj, I’ve seen it with a wide range of artists is that they put it in, they put the work in. It's not like they say: I'm this brilliant artist, and I'm going to come in and just kind of still use my brilliance and move on. They actually put in the time, and they're focused and intense. And they want to make sure it is the best product they can put out no matter what they're putting out.Dan Runcie 14:31  Yeah, with her specifically, you've seen that with each album. I mean, it's like find some way to just level up and continue to do that. And even thinking back to that deal and from the consumer perspective, just seeing how everything lined up. I mean, she put the lights out after the show at that Super Bowl, right? It was something else. But the one piece I did want to clarify with that. So, if the Super Bowl wasn't in the conversation, is it fair to assume that all that deal wouldn't have worked that needed to be if they'd put it over the edge?Frank Cooper 15:02  No, no, it would have worked in either way, because I think the Super Bowl definitely contributed to it. Because how many times you're going to have a simultaneous audience of 100 million-plus people watching something. But there were enough other things that she really wanted to do that we could help on. And that didn't involve just the check, you know, the infrastructure of Pepsi at the time, it could be helpful in so many different ways. And I think what's the collection of all those things together, pull the Super Bowl out, I would have added something else that it was done a full-length film together something, you know, but there would have been something that would meet her desire to break the boundaries of what has been done before, and that PepsiCo could actually help her deliver. Dan Runcie 15:45  Talking about the Super Bowl. What did you think about the show that we had this past year with Dre, Snoop and 50 Cent, Kendrick, Marry?Frank Cooper 15:53  So, man, I was almost in tears in a way because, you know, I am. So before I left PepsiCo, I renegotiated a 10 year deal with a couple of billion dollars. And I got to know some of the owners, definitely got to know the NFL headquarters very well. And I thought I would never see that day where you had that lineup of artists, you know, from Dre to Snoop to Kendrick to Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and 50 Cent, but you would have never seen that day. But more importantly, I thought I would never see it presented in such an authentic way. They didn't tone down the visuals. And I think it was the absolute best performance I've ever seen, I don't think was the best performance I've ever seen overall, but the collection of that effort, and the collection of the artists and the energy and the visual presentations. For me, this is, this was a seminal moment that I think we should all remember because it will open up the doors for many other artists to come. And what I realized is that they knew it too because you could see, by the way, they were very careful what they did and made sure that they stay within certain bounds. The only person who did something semi-controversial was Eminem, right? And when he nailed it, this to me was a really powerful moment, I thought I would never see it. And I hope that it's not a one-off. You know, I hope that you know, as we see future NFL productions as well as the Super Bowl that we see more black artists, and that we see hip hop, in particular, play a more central role.Dan Runcie 17:20  I agree. I think that this one specifically helped almost if you look back to the one, they had in Atlanta, and I feel like there's a lot of talks there about why could've represented Atlanta's soul, R&B, hip hop vibes that, you know, are so tremendous to that city, and then a show that didn't end up showing that 100%. And I feel like: Okay, we have this here. And if you just look at the slide, there are so many cities coming up where you could see something similar for these types of artists, so that that could be special.Frank Cooper 17:51  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, so disappointing when they happen in Atlanta. It's like, wait a minute, are you kidding me? Atlanta is all about music. I can lead.Dan Runcie 18:00  It's like, I mean, Maroon Five definitely deserves to be on that stage. I mean, they're one of the biggest groups of the past two decades, but from a time in place, and all the things lining up. It was like, come on. Yeah, I know. And they got out what do you got? We got Big Boy, and almost as like a, you know, afterthought to be like: Okay, here, we're hearing the chatter. Let's see who we could get for this one. But that's it.Frank Cooper 18:25  Let's give him half a second, don’t look too long, you know, this probably, they will never let me program it. Because I would have gone back, I would have dug in the crates a bit. I would say, you know, let's go to the Goodie Mob. All right, let's bring them back. But you could also they could just soften it up. I mean, you know, Toni Braxton, you know, the whole of face lineup from a certain era could have been on their. Ludacris, He's a mainstream star now. There's so much they could have done. And hopefully, they saw through this, that it was a lost opportunity. And I think they're seeing what's happening on social media from this last Super Bowl, that it's a powerful force that they can tap into, in a way that actually improves the NFL brand. And so, I think the fear was, in some way, this is going to alienate those who are not on the coast, you know, the Midwest. But I hope the realization is now that hip hop is not isolated to the coast. You know, hip hop is foundational across every geographic territory today.Dan Runcie 19:25  Right. And especially with this one, too. You had Eminem, who Midwest, one of the biggest artists of the past, you know, a couple of decades to so we'll see. I know you mentioned that this was the best one. Which one do you get the number one for Super Bowl?Frank Cooper 19:41  Well, you know, for me, the one that was most special for me was Prince. And when he did Purple Rain, and it started to rain, it's like a whole thing was magical. It was incredible.Dan Runcie 19:51  It was poetic. It was like you couldn't script this. It was beautiful. Shifting gears, a bit. Want to talk a bit more about your role and your experience right now at Blackrock. You joined a few years ago, and it was a similar type of role, given the CMO position that you've had, you've had other companies, but definitely a different type of industry and a different type of sector that you had worked in up to that point. But in hearing you in other interviews and things you've talked about, trying to bring financial literacy and elevate that to the discussion has been an important piece of that. So, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about what that's been like for you since you've been there and how that has taken shape.Frank Cooper 20:35  Yeah, you know, one of the things that I don't know if this is a risk or not, but at least one of the things I did when I first came in was trying to make, trying to convince the leadership of Blackrock that it needed to have a sense of purpose that wouldn’t be on profits, that wouldn't be on money. Working closely with a bunch of other people, we were successful in doing that. And part of that purpose statement that we ended up with, included this idea of financial inclusion, we help more and more people experience financial well-being. And so, getting that built into the core of a company where we say, hey, that's our ultimate goal. Yes, money and profits are an outcome that we have to have to succeed. But our ultimate goal is to help more and more people experience financial well-being. So, by having financial inclusion built into it, that was a huge step. But I mentioned earlier, that music helped me quite a bit. And the part that helped me is that I looked at culture first, like what is happening in culture that is urgent and important, and that our industry can address. One of the things that's happening in culture, for sure, and you can see it all over the world is that more people are feeling like they're excluded from the opportunities for economic mobility, that they don't believe the system is working in their favor, they don't have access to improve their own prosperity. And so, you know, for me, you take that cultural lens and work back to the industry of questions, what can we do to improve that? I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen, suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it’s filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know, people's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation. But I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical. So, what I've started to do is think about what are the elements that can help people move forward and become investors. So, it's increasing their savings. And I think it's four things I think, is knowledge, skills, community, and access. And so, if you go to Reddit, or one of the trending, one of the most substantial subreddit threads, or at least around financial education. People want to know, like, give me the information, but also helped me build the skills, and then give me a community, it gives me some support. And all I need after that is some access, make it easier for me to come in, and make it safe for me to try. And so that's what I've been focused on is really trying to figure out how to improve the knowledge, skills, community, and access so that people have a better shot at increasing their own sense of prosperity.Dan Runcie 23:11  Yeah. And from the work you've done so far, I feel like I could see those connections, you started the Tik Tok page. I've been posting more they're trying to connect a bit more with not just the younger generation, but with being able to break those things down. And I know another thing that you had said, once you really liked how a movie like The Big Short was able to help boil these principles down and communicate in a way to be like: Hey, here it is, these concepts aren't as complex as they may always seem, but let's do it in layman's terms. And I feel like I could see elements of that with some of the content that you've all put out recently.Frank Cooper 23:48  Yeah, you know, one of the things that convinced me that I should come into BlackRock and move over to financial services was watching that film The Big Short, which is kind of ironic, right? Because it was not a favorable view of the financial services industry.Dan Runcie 24:02  A lot of people may watch that movie and not want to come work at BlackRock.Frank Cooper 24:08  But what stuck with me is like, you know, a lot of friends who were in investment, and I used to ask him these questions like: What's this thing called a credit default swap? And he would explain it to me, and I'm like: I think I'm fairly smart. I have no idea what you're talking about, like, you know, and I just give up. When I saw The Big Short, I saw those interstitials. And you saw Selena in the club, you know, or the late Anthony Bourdain in the restaurant, or Margie in the tub of champagne. They explained those concepts in really simple terms that anyone can understand. And for me, that was like an awakening was like: You know what? It's not that complicated really. It's just that some people are making it complicated. What if we can actually deliver it in ways that people like to learn today, you know, short-form, jargon-free, highly visual with relatable role models. Man, that could be like a really fascinating thing because then suddenly people could start to take steps forward and become part of the benefits of saving and investing. And so, it was a really defining moment for me. And I’ve taken that logic, and I'm trying to apply it today, you know, in Tik Tok, already, there's already a movement happening on Tick Tock, I mean, if you look at #moneytalk, you know, it's one of the top hashtags already, but it is, in my mind the perfect format for what I'm talking about short-form, highly visual, jargon-free and relatable role models. And, you know, I'm excited we've just launched. So, it's really early days, but I'm really excited about the potential of that platform and other platforms to find a crack in the code on financial education and financial literacy, and financial inclusion. But I think that is the pathway for our own sense of purpose of including more people the benefits of investing.Dan Runcie 25:55  Definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's consuming so much attention and has so much mindshare over a generation, you have to be where they're at. I'm curious if there are other channels, are there other areas that you're pursuing, or you're considering doing especially this next year. I feel like things are moving so fast with everything happening, whether it's Web 3.0 or the metaverse. There could be endless opportunities to distill and communicate this type of information.Frank Cooper 26:22  Yeah, well, that's such a difficult question. Because, you know, I'm always trying to figure out where things are moving next, and in time it in a way where it can have an impact because I've also learned the hard way, that being too early is the same as being too late. The impact really won't hit you, or abroad, enough people, set of people in the way that you want. And so, when I look at timing and change, I think we have an opportunity in a long-form video, you know, I think we could do things like a documentary film that will be really interesting and helpful, and not just kind of the shilling of the brand or the company. But this area of NFTs and the metaverse is we're at the height of the hype cycle right now. So, we got to get through that. And no one knows exactly how it's going to take shape. But there's a few things we do know. We do know that people want to have the experience of being in an immersive environment. Video games have been doing it for a long time now. And we saw that ship years ago and video games. I don't remember earlier in the video games used to give different tools and weapons and other things that people could use within the game as you started to level up. They eliminated that for variety reasons, including they thought it was unfair terms of pure gameplay, but they had shifted from that to accessories. And so, once you shift to the accessories in the virtual world like a video game, you've entered the metaverse in a way. It's not as immersive as a 3d environment necessarily, but you're entering the metaverse because now you have these accessories. And so, imagine if you're in a virtual world, and these virtual worlds are connected, and you have some limited-edition Nike shoes, or you have some other crypto collectible, that to me is the direction is going, what we can do is that there's some form of exchange that has to happen in these environments. And we can be part of that exchange number one, but then when you look at something like Decentraland, where people could buy a plot of virtual land and build what they want on it, and people can invest and people can start to save suddenly in that virtual world this idea of financial services, investing, asset allocation becomes really interesting. And I think we have an opportunity to step in there in a way that's still authentic, but it also can deliver real value to people who are experiencing those virtual environments. So, I'm very excited about the metaverse, I'm excited about NFTs within the metaverse in particular, in the role that financial services can play.Dan Runcie 28:52  Yeah, I agree. It's been fascinating to see how much has changed in the past six months, you know, year plus at this point. But it's also been interesting to see more and more celebrities and especially folks in hip hop that are pushing it themselves or are changing their social avatars to whether it's board apes or some other assets that they have. So, it's really great to see those folks be ahead of the curve as well on a thing like this. Because as we both know, if you're able to have them to set the direction and get their audience bought in, there could be a lot of movement, not just with, you know, who gets bought in but who gets bought in early that could eventually set the tone for what the landscape looks like, looks like as it matures.Frank Cooper 29:37  Yeah. And you know, I've always been, I'm happy to see that black artists in particular, but hip hop artists in general, are now are getting credit for leading being one of the leaders within technology. I think it's always happened when ringtones are out, they were leaders of it. When mobile phones and mobile communications were out there were leaders of that. When Twitter launched Black Twitter was the hottest thing on the platform. But it was largely unrecognized. Now it's being recognized. And I'm also sensing a slight mindset shift among some of these artists. So, you take that piece of it, but also this notion that I can be a pure consumer. And it's been or I can build wealth. And you know, we saw seeds of that even in Jay-Z’s 444 album, but even when I see someone like Rick Ross come off the plane to say: Hey, I just did a set for someone I got X amount of check, am I going to go and buy another gold chain? I'm going to invest in this. It is a mindset shift in terms of what success looks like, and all that wealth plays within it. And so, with the convergence of those two things, I think that we're entering a space that none of us know exactly how it's going to play out, but a space where new opportunities are going to come both for artists, but also for entrepreneurs. And just for people who have traditionally been excluded, you know, from the benefits of investing and saving and wealth in general.Dan Runcie 30:57  What is your involvement in this space look like? Have you gotten deep into it with yourself, whether it's your own wallets or things that you've been tapping into?Frank Cooper 31:05  No, I'm more, I'm sidelined right now for variety reasons. It's tricky. You know, since I've been at BlackRock, there are a lot more restrictions on what I can do. But the thing I've been paying the closest attention to would be crypto assets, in particular, NFTs years ago. And I regret it someone told me early on, you know: Hey, yo, dip into Bitcoin. And I intended to do it, because I was like, you know, who knows where it's going to go, but I'll learn. So, I missed that opportunity, and I feel like this thing is moving so quickly, I could easily miss this opportunity. Also, personally, unless I start getting a ball, because I don't think you can, is moving so quickly. I don't think you can really understand it in a deep way unless you participate in it, you know, you can study it, you can see it, but you kind of participate in it. So, I'm trying to get there. I'm not fully there.Dan Runcie 31:52  Yeah. It's a lot. I mean, anyone that considers themselves an expert in Web 3.0 or anything like this, I always push back because the space is growing so fast. And at the broadest extent, we're all learners in this space. We're all just gaining knowledge by day. And if we learn something interesting, we'll share it with others but there are no experts in this everyone is just leveling up. And I do think that these things take time. Even as someone that studies this space for a living related to the things I do, it's still a lot, and every week, you'll see something else being like: Oh, what's that, but like anything else, you have to filter it down. And you have to prioritize where that lines up with everything else that's there. Frank Cooper 32:31  And what are your go-to sources to keep learning and keep deepening understanding of Web 3.0 and NFTs, and the metaverse?Dan Runcie 32:38  Yeah, there's a few spots that I've gone through like there's this newsletter that I recently started checking out that has been helpful on that front, it's more of a regular digest to some of the latest things that are going on. There are some other folks in music and more broadly, and media that I've been following that have either bought things or will you know, add me to some of these telegrams or discord groups that are happening. So much of it has happened a bit informally. But you'll see these drops happen once in a while. And it's always this thing of: Okay, you want to support this person because you're cool, then and then you know, you can get the NFT that has access to that, but then you never know where it could go, right? So, there's that. And then on the other side of it, too, just looking through the headlines of some of the things that are happening, I feel like now it's almost a given just to the sources that I'm checking that it'll be so and so in many cases, a hip hop artist that's like: Oh, they just did a NFT deal with this, or they just did that or even the deal that Snoop Dogg had done and how he was able to sell last I checked, you know, it was over $44 million worth of a NFT that had this exclusive access to a lot of his what he would normally have as a VIP thing. It was part of this album that he has now that he has a death row catalog. So, all these things have been kind of like, you know, little nuggets of information that just add and build to it. So, it's definitely been a pretty wide range of things. But that's I feel like I've been able to at least try to keep up with these things.Frank Cooper 34:05  I love it. I love it. I have to look up some of those, you know, and one of my concerns around it is this going to be strange coming from someone who lives in marketing is that brands will mess this all up, you know, because you know brands are now aware of how fast it's growing, how powerful it is, how much people want to engage, you know, with NFT's and crypto and the metaverse. I think some of these brands are jumping into early, they will be better off learning and taking smaller steps and not big leaps on this one in my opinion. Dan Runcie 34:35  That brand piece is interesting. I feel like you had said recently that you feel like brands in general just need to be more like creators. And I think if you have that type of mentality, then maybe that can help address some of these ways that you could go into an area and it may not necessarily be the best but if you have that open perspective, it'll turn out better.Frank Cooper 34:54  100%. Because the brands can play across a wide range, right? Some brands will come in and say I will be an observer; I will just observe things and share that with people. A little bit of value in that some many, many brands are still in the sponsor layer, like, you know, we will support something, and we hope we get a halo effect by just being a supporter of it. There are literally designs and billboards, you know, at games and things like that. Other brands are curators, they'll say: Hey, we'll weed out the stuff for you. And you can see that we're kind of in the game because our taste level will be evident because we are giving you the best in certain areas. But the brands I think that people will love and respect, and that feel like they're part of the community are these creative brands. They actually create things that add value to people's lives. And so, when I was very started to see it, what I love to see more of is brands come in, and they actually design experiences that help people, you know, if you're a sponsor of the NFL, for example, well, how can you make the fan experience better by creating some something like that? Instead of creating a commercial, can you create a film? You know, can you create some integration into a video game that actually will be beneficial to the players within that game? Creator brands are the ones that add that value, but to be a great creator, you also have to be a member of that community, you can't just parachute in from the outside to say, like, I understand all the nuances that are happening within this community, you have to be a member of it. You have to be active and understand the values and the rituals and the symbols and the stories and the history of that community in order for you to really add value and to be a true creator within it.Dan Runcie 36:35  So, brands can't just hop on Twitter and say: Oh, I'm pushing P that's what you’re saying.Frank Cooper 36:41  You know, somebody's going to do that, though. You know, someone's going to do it.Dan Runcie 36:45  They already have.Frank Cooper 36:47  It's terrible, though. But you know, that’s what happens, unfortunately, with too many brands. And the great thing, in my opinion, is that consumers are so smart now. It's like, they see exactly what it is, you will get no credit for you will be maligned. And so, again, I think those brands who understand what it takes to be a creator, jump into it. If you're not ready for that, you can take a step back and be a curator and say, I'm looking at the best of the best, but even then, you still need to be steeped in the culture steeped in the communities that are driving.Dan Runcie 37:18  Right. And I think at the end of the day, what happens is like when you have the people that work at those companies that actually represent that culture, that's how you have more of this. If you have the outsiders trying to embed themselves in whether it's a brand or not, there's going to be a disconnect. And I feel like that actually links back to something that you've written about recently, you had a really thoughtful Harvard business review essay, and you talked about black employees at these workplaces in a lot of these types of roles and wanting to feel safe, wanting to feel seen and wanting to feel supported. And one, I mean, I can relate to that 100%, having worked in many of these roles, and I think I appreciated your writing that given the leadership roles in place that you've been in your careers, but I'm curious, how do you feel, you know, from your perspective, as that relates to you and your experience, even now, at the CMO level roles and the C suite roles that you've had for major companies?Frank Cooper 38:18  Yeah, you know, it's really interesting to me that article, I couldn't easily have been one of the interviewees because of the experiences that they expressed in the article, not feeling safe to fully express yourself, you know, so that kind of psychological safety, you know, not being seen in the fullness of who you are, you know, and the potential that you have, and not being supported, and supported. I mean, given all the elements that can make you successful, but also being challenged to stretch into new roles. I've experienced all that. And all on the way I also had to deal with, and I think many black and brown executives and women have to deal with this. It's a perception challenge, right? Which is, can the person sitting across from who is in some way responsible for your growth within the company, see your full potential, and it's not like there's this kind of demonic attitude that they have toward you. But their subconscious may not allow them to see the goal is to see you, as a CEO, see you as a CMO. And so, you're always overcoming that perception challenge. But I've been fortunate in that in there's a long list of people that have helped me achieve despite that, there have been people who saw in me, that potential people have given me that opportunity to stretch. And the one person who's going to really be in my life, my career for most of my life is Clarence Avant. And Clarence Avant, they, you know, they did the Netflix film on Clarence, The Black Godfather, but early on, you know, Clarence started telling me the stories of what he did, why he did it, how he approached it. And it was a sense of kind of fearlessness that he had, in the sense of, you know, that if you fail is nothing more than we're learning experience, take that and use it to your benefit, helping to communicate. So how do you actually know that someone may not see the full potential in you? How do you actually get them to overcome that? Maybe if you can solve their problems, you know, figure out what their problem is and solve it, it builds confidence, one, but also makes you closer to them. And proximity is really important in order to build these kinds of relationships where people want to help pull you up. And so, he was really central to it. But they have been a long list of people every step of the way that have been helpful to me, because they saw potential in me, and were able to overcome it. I think to do it on a systemic level, we have to rethink how we train managers, and managers are trained, you know, to be technically proficient, they're trained to lead in a way that you'll find your high potential employees, etc. But what we're talking about here is really unlocking potential in all people and to unlock potential and people that may not look like you require a different set of skills. You know, do you have a skill of humble inquiry? Do you don't ask questions in a way that actually motivates people to connect with you? You know, can you practice intense listening? You know, are you listening in a way where you really understand what that person is saying, even though the language may be different than maybe shrouded in euphemisms? That's the training that needs to happen with managers to really break through this and unlock the potential in people that may not look like though. And so, I'm optimistic, but we have a long way to go.Dan Runcie 41:26  That's real, the way that things are communicated makes such a big difference. And you bring it up Clarence Avant, I've never met him personally. But even just watching through that documentary, you can just see that vibe of how he was and how he related. There wasn't this like, awe, the factor that he had going into rooms. It was like: Yeah, you know, I talked to Bill Clinton, and I just let him know how it was like, there was no pause in any of that. And you just saw that carry through and through.Frank Cooper 41:53  You know, he told me, he said: Hey, Frank, look, I'm from North Carolina. And he says he's from Greensboro base from climates. And let's go ahead, it's like, it's adjacent to Greensboro. And he said: I didn't know what was going on. He said, but early in my career, Joe Glaser told me, you know, I want you to go in, and I want you to have this conversation with this head of the music label, and you're going to manage this artist, and he's like, you know, I don't know how to do this. You know, Joe says something to be said that stuck with them for the rest of his life. He said, let me just say this: Every person that you're talking to, they wake up in the morning, they shower, brush their teeth, put up put on their pants, or shoes, whatever. They're just like you, there's nothing special about them beyond the fact that they're another human being, and just relate to them in that way. And you're going to be fine. And that's how he approaches it. So, he's not, it's fascinating, he's not in awe. But he's also not looking down upon anyone. It's like, I'm looking at you eye to eye, let's figure out how we connect with you about how we can make something happen. It's a remarkable skill. And I believe that's what's carried up through all these years.Dan Runcie 42:57  Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure. And we're getting to the tail end here. And I'm sure that as you mentioned, you've had a lot of people that have, you know, seen things in you that were able to help get you to the place you're into your career. Clarence Avant, you know, is one of those folks that gave you great advice. What's another piece of advice that you've gotten in your career that really stuck with you that still resonates today?Frank Cooper 43:17  Well, the best, the best piece of advice I had was early in my career, and I was just thinking as a second-year law school student, and I was with a litigation partner. And what he told me was that I told him, I want to do practice law and teach law for all these reasons. And he said: Okay, fine, fine, fine, whatever. But let me just say one thing that after practicing for 20 years, I've been in public practice and private practice, and I've seen a lot of people who are successful, and those who have not succeeded. And I'll tell you, the one thing that you have to remember is that if you can connect your personal interests with your professional interests, the thing that energizes you in life, you know, that gives you a sense of fulfillment and connect that with your personal interest, you will not only do well, you'll actually have this deep sense of fulfillment. He said: If you don't do it, I think you'll still be successful, superficially, but you'll watch your personal interest go to the wayside. And so that actually sent me on this path of what we now call purpose of this path of discovering life. So, what am I good at? What do I love to do? And what am I good at? And how can I contribute to something bigger than myself? And that was, it was a deep introspective process, but I came out of it, having a sense of what I love to do, what I'm good at, how it contributes to the world, and I've applied it's kind of been my compass, every place that I've been, and it's what impart has allowed me to move from industry to industry at a very high level, you know, from entertainment to technology to consumer goods and financial services. That sense of purpose has stuck with me the entire way.Dan Runcie 44:49  That's real. That's real. And that's a good note to close on with this. I mean, normally my last question is your anything you want to plug and let the Trapital audience know about, but I think you did it right there. Oh, it's perfect. Well, Frank, no, this was a pleasure. I really appreciate you coming on. And I feel like we'll have to may have to check it again with you at some point, we'll see what the next few Super Bowl lineups look like. And then we could do a postgame after that.Frank Cooper 45:15  Let's do it every year. I'd love to do it.Dan Runcie 45:18  That'd be great. Okay, awesome.Frank Cooper 45:19Thanks, man. Dan Runcie 45:21  Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show.Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week

It’s no secret that touring is the lifeblood of most modern-day musical artists. But while most fans only see the finished product — a head-bobbing performance at Coachella or a sold-out nightclub — few get a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes work being done by professionals like Kevin Shivers, a partner in WME’s music division. Let this interview with Kevin be your inside look at what goes into the live performances that fuel the entire music industry.Kevin has been with WME since 2008 after a stint in Hollywood. While with WME, he’s worked with stars such as Tyler The Creator, Summer Walker, Kid Cudi, and plenty more on their touring strategies. Of course, Kevin’s world — much like every other industry — was dealt a massive blow during the past two years. But with live shows seemingly back (knock on wood), Kevin has his eyes toward the future.And the future is an even better fan experience, says Kevin. NFTs, virtual concerts, removing the frictions of going to a real-life show — these are all ongoing evolutions that will better connect superfans with their favorite artists. We covered this near-term future in our interview, plus a whole lot more.Episode Highlights[2:15] How Kevin Broke Into The Entertainment Business [4:00] How Has the Music Business Changed In The Past Two Years? [5:25] The Go-Forward Plan For 2022[6:40] What Spurred Tyler The Creator’s Big 2021[9:35] What Data Goes Into Entering New Touring Markets [13:10] Festival Strategies With Artists[14:56] How Has Streaming Changed Touring Trajectory[17:10] The Biggest Touring Mistake[18:30] Social Media’s Influence On Touring[19:30] Touring Difference Between Hip Hop And R&B[21:02] How Kevin Measure Success For Himself [23:00] Why Kevin Is So Vested In Mentorship[25:19] Diversity & Inclusion Initiatives Within The Music Industry [28:46] The Impact Web 3.0 Will Have On The Music Industry[31:20] Will Virtual Concerts Replace Live Shows?[32:30] Five-Year Predictions For Music Touring[34:43] How Many Days Will Kevin Spend At Shows In 2022?[35:40] How Do You Find The Next Musical Star?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Kevin Shivers, Instagram: @bellmeadallstar  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands_____Transcription: The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WMEKevin Shivers 00:00You gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.Dan Runcie 00:18Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast! I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Kevin Shivers. He's a partner at WME, and he represents some of the biggest artists in the game like Tyler, the Creator, Summer Walker, and more. We talked about how he was able to maximize the big year that Tyler had last year. I feel like Tyler headlined so many music festivals, and had so many appearances. Kevin talks about what it took to make that happen, especially given how turbulent things were with COVID, and all of the restrictions and variants that came through and how he was able to still make it happen. We talk more broadly about music festivals in the strategy that Kevin has for making sure his clients can get certain buildings on the roster. We also talked about Summer Walker and how he was able to do the same for her. Then, we talked more broadly about what it's like as a black executive, especially in representing artists. There are not too many people at agents that are at Kevin's level that look like Kevin, so we talked about that. Some of the advocacy work and mentoring and giving back that he's done and he's prioritized in his career, and so much more. It was great to have Shivers on here. I hope you enjoy this. Here's my chat with Kevin Shivers. All right, today, we got one of the most powerful agents in the game. Kevin Shivers partner at WME. Welcome to the pod, feels like we're long overdue.Kevin Shivers 01:49Thanks for having me, Dan. It's a pleasure. Dan Runcie 01:51Yeah, it's funny because I feel like this time of the year, I always see the festival posters come up for all of the music festivals. And I'm sure you've seen the one where they replace the names of the festivals with the agencies that they're all part of. And whenever I see the WME, I'm like: Man, Kevin was on his game this year. Kevin Shivers 02:10It's definitely not all me, man. There are so many great agents at work here. Happy to be a part of this team. Dan Runcie 02:15So you've been in the game for a while now. But let's take a step back. Because I know you've been working at the agency for some time. But what was it that first attracted you to the business?Kevin Shivers 02:27I had to say it was my mother. When I was a kid growing up, my mother would drag my brother out of movies every weekend. And that's the first time in my head where I got: Wait, I would love to work in entertainment because I love the movie so much. My mother loves movies so much. Even during COVID, she was still going to the movies. And that's like the really, my first interest into the business. When I graduated from high school, I went to college at University of Texas. I majored in film with the plan of moving out to LA and being a producer. And I did move out to Los Angeles, I started interning at The Weinstein Company at the time. And then I went on to this Company Cost of Beanie films, they had a deal at Weinstein. And from there, I kind of entered into the film business, and I got my first taste into: This is not for me, this is not what I want to do in my life. Partly because I was really bad at my job, like I tried, but I didn't want to read 30 scripts a week. This is not what I wanted to do. And then I pivoted, I left there. And I went to this place called Cats Media Group, which is like they did TV sales. And I knew that, that wasn't long term. And I went there to stay in Los Angeles, and to figure it out. And from there, I figured out I wanted to be an agent and WME. I had some experience in music and in Austin like going to shows. I knew a promoter, this guy Charles Adler, Ramsay Three. And at the time, it was the William Morris Agency. And that's my first interest into entertainment. Dan Runcie 03:56Nice. And I feel like the past year and a half, almost two years now. It's probably been unlike any other time period since you've been in this. What's that been like for you?Kevin Shivers 04:05You mean like COVID, and the ways impacted shows? It's been wild, right? Like if I go back to 2020, there was so much going on in the picture of even the world and in all of our lives. You had George Floyd, you had Trump and you had COVID and uncertainty. So 2020, being an agent, it was moving shows from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. That doesn't work for all the social things that are going on in the world to 2021. The first six months were kind of the same of 2020, and the first light in the tunnel I think was Rolling Loud, like Rolling Loud played, and then Lollapalooza was maybe a week or two later. And then you start seeing Austin City Limits and Outside Lands playing off in some tours. And then we started; it started to make sense, then Omicron came along, and we're like back for a period of time back at square one. But it seems like 2022 is gonna bring a lot of joy, you know. Shows are planned, Superbowl is happening in a few days, Pro Sports are going along. So it seems a lot of positivity.Dan Runcie 05:10What do you think will be different for 2022 and 2023 thereafter? Because I feel like it'll be this gradual shift where eventually things will start to feel like the touring schedule is maybe back to somewhat of what it was before COVID. But how long do you think that will really be like? What do you think will be the first year that we can look back at and say: Okay, this is the first year that doesn't feel like it was impacted in any way?Kevin Shivers 05:36I think there's some hope in 2022. If we just changed the way that we’re thinking that this is the new world. Things might pop up, the virus might flare back up and flare back down. But let's try to figure out how to move forward. I think I'm starting to see that people are out and about in shows, they are playing sports, you know. The NFL season went through the whole season, they had ups and downs. And I think that like we're starting to see some positivity, lots of hope for 23. Hopefully 23, we get back to some sort of, or we get to some sort of a new normal, where we're living in this new world, and we're just going with the punches.Dan Runcie 06:12I hear that. So I think the good thing for you though is that even, until we got to that point, you've been moving a lot. And I know that Tyler the Creator is one of your bigger clients and 2021 was a big year for him. Headlined a bunch of festivals, dropped his album. What was it like making sure that everything could line up and that you could have everything set for him despite everything else that was going on with the touring business?Kevin Shivers 06:38First of all, I want to say Tyler's a star and a one of a kind of talent, and he knows exactly what he wants. I'm lucky to be a part of his team, and he has an excellent team around them. It starts with the managers Chris and Kelly Clancy, who are amazing people. The business manager, Joe Colone, amazing lawyer, my partner James Ruby, who does International Day watch after her at the agency and all the other people that touchTyler. But 21 was a great year; we got the headline target the headlines for festivals, but it was also we had some goals from, it was also challenging. First thing is the record comes, the record is amazing and it's also finding a window when we can go on sale when COVID is not surging, and I think that the team and I,we all got lucky because we found a window.We knew Tyler was going to headline Lollapalooza and the goal was after you get all the media, the media hype coming from Lolla. We knew he was going to bring an amazing show; that Monday after Lolla, finding that window where we can go on sale and luckily for us, no COVID spikes out Lolla, nothing crazy. And there's no COVID spikes in the world. So that was the first thing, right? I think the second thing when we thought about touring, is trying to find the markets for him to play Tyler, somebody that wants to push the envelopes. And we ended up putting up 35 arenas, breaking in some new markets. I saw last night a show in San Diego. He was like: I could have done 50 shows. I mean, granted, it was nice to have, you know, the tour. And I was like: Okay, we'll see how you feel at, like, night 33 or something. But we were able to break into new markets. Columbus, Vegas, El Paso, Pittsburgh, to name a few. I think the third thing is that Tyler really, really wanted to give the fans the ultimate experience. This is the lineup: Teezo Touchdown, Vince Staples, Kal Uchis. And I think the last thing is, you know, making sure that we hit the sweet spot in pricing. So we, you know, give the fans a place where they can feel happy, a place where they can buy tickets, but also maximizing the gross, keeping ticket sales in the gross. And this was a joint effort with the managers, Chris and Kelly, Michelle Bernstein, who's an excellent marketing ticketing person and AG team led by Cody over there.Dan Runcie 08:56Talk to me a bit more about the new markets and picking those.You mentioned in Pittsburgh, you mentioned El Paso. What are the data that insights are the field that you look for when you're like: Hey, this is somewhere that we want to consider going to that we haven't gone before. And if we do it, is this the type of venue that we should go in this market as opposed to somewhere like LA or New York where he's already proved himself? Kevin Shivers 09:20Well, I think there's a few things, so one is whenever Tyler, any of my clients, I'm always trying to figure out, I want them to play as many places that they can. Just reach all the fans and maximize the opportunity we're on the road because if it's a Tyler recording or whoever it is, or Cody, you're not gonna get to see them every single year. That is a unique experience. But to answer your direct question, it's one looking at the data if it's from Spotify, or our past sales. Two is looking at the markets and seeing if there's a building or venue that makes sense like Columbus. We know that's a place, there's a college town where Tyler's played there before, played there, sold out. I think a smaller room on the onsale, knew there was demand, didn't realize, I mean, the Columbus sales are insane. But this didn't realize like: Wow, that's, I mean that is really like that's a smaller market that has turned into a market, right? I think it's looking at our diverse lineup of talent on the bill, you know, going to a place like El Paso and looking at: Oh, there's probably going to be some Kali fans, and Vince fans and Teezo fans, right? That's a good place. And that's also a place that doesn't get a lot of entertainment. So like, and that ended up being like a home run. So it's like, kind of looking at the whole picture of what you got and talking to a lot of people that are smarter than you in kind of coming up with a plan. And also just working with good people that have a point of view.Dan Runcie 10:47What are the trade-offs that you have to make for those kinds of decisions? Because I imagine that there's the ones that do cross the threshold to be like: Okay, let's make this happen. But you know, kind of like you were saying before, it's tough to try to do 50 shows in a specific short amount of run or whatever it may be. What are some of those considerations you may have to make in terms of the markets that you can't pick? Or the ones you know, that you may not be able to put in this time, right?Kevin Shivers 11:11I think there are a few things. One, it's like really talking to your clients and letting them know, we might, we're going to try to go in this market. This possibility, it might not go the way that we want, but we have to, to me if you're not trying if you're not putting risk on the line, and what are we doing, right? It's like, I'm actually somebody who's okay with failing, right? And I’m not saying that we fail or anything, but I'm okay with doing that risk for the bigger reward. So it's like really, really like getting in there and talking to them about, you know, the strategy, right? And like, the goal, I think the goal should be like, when you go out every two, three years is gaining new fans, gaining that new network.Dan Runcie 11:50Right, especially now. I feel like for someone like him, it's probably been interesting. I know, you've been with him to see the rise and just to see how the fan base has continued to evolve over time. So I imagine he probably even sees things where he's like: Okay, these are the Tyler fans that ,you know, have been with me since the Globin days. If I go to this city versus, you know, you go to this other city. They may not have discovered me as much until Flower Boy or something like that. I'm sure he does. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think with him too, if we talk a bit more about the festival side of things, he obviously was a headliner, as you mentioned, his Lollapalooza show was broadcasted. I didn't go to the show, but I was able to see it through Hulu, because they had it coming through there. When you're trying to have someone like him, obviously, you have many different artists and they have different levels that they may want to perform at. And ideally, you want to have everyone maximizing and performing at the highest level or being like the highest row on that festival poster. But for someone like Tyler, is it going into the year like: Hey, headline or buster; if we can't be a headliner for this festival, we're not going to do it. Or does it depend on who some of the others are? What are those conversations like? Kevin Shivers 13:07I think when you start a campaign with any artist, it's just like sitting down with the team and figuring out what the goals are, right? And it's all a trajectory and building on the last. I think you want to, the goal is always to build on the last time you were out, to build on the last year, right? And having that conversation. And you know, different artists have different things. Some people want to specifically target these particular festivals, or you know, you're going out in his window, and you could maybe use a festival to route in and out to get the gross-up for the whole tour. It's just like, really just, it's really spending time with the client spending time with the manager to find out, figure out what the goal is in maximizing the opportunities.Dan Runcie 13:49Is it any tougher to do that though? The way that artists can just rise so fast now, especially in the streaming era. Because I know that there's normally the standard, you know, you do your clubs, you can do a, you know, ballrooms or amphitheaters, and then maybe if you get to arenas or stadiums, that's their trajectory. But with people just getting so big, so fast, does that change the dynamic? Or it's like: Okay, how do you still balance what they may have done last time and use that as a reference point versus how quickly they can rise in this era?Kevin Shivers 14:19I mean, look, you have to have a point of view, and you have to have a plan. And you have to have some thoughts, right? And I think that people can really jump up really, really quickly. But we like to use this thing: don't skip steps, right? You know, sometimes if, you know, you can go play in an arena, why not go play multiple nights at a smaller room and build the momentum, build a buzz, meet people on the streets, leaving, not being able to get to the show. So that when you come back around, you still have gas in the tank. I mean, there's no one size fits all plan. It's like, you have to just know who you're working with, spend time and really kind of draw that. Draw that sketch up and map it out and let it listen. A plan is just a, it's just a roadmap. It can be amended along the way. There's no like set in stone thing, but other than like, no knowing where you want to go, knowing what you think, you know, going to be doing the next year, the next five years. That is what's most important.Dan Runcie 15:13That makes sense. And that reminds me of something I heard. I think it was Olivia Rodrigo, who said in some recent interview when he announced her tour. And someone must have asked her something along the lines of: Hey, you had one of the biggest years in pop music this past year, could you have done arenas? And I think she said that same line, you said: I don't want to skip any steps. This is where that is. So I think that's something that definitely rings true. And we're seeing examples of that.Kevin Shivers 15:39Yes. And you gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.Dan Runcie 15:49So what do you think are some of the mistakes that artists can make? Like, I mean, you don't have to drop any names. You don't got to put anybody on blast. But is there anyone that you think maybe made a touring misstep? Or there's something where you can look back and be like: Ah, if they had done that a little differently, things could have worked out a little bit, you know, whether it's better or worse, or however for them.Kevin Shivers 16:09I think sometimes when people overthink it and end up doing nothing, that's like a bummer for everybody. That's a bummer for the artist. That's a bummer for the fan, that's a bummer for the culture, like, like you're hot, you're popping right now. We really need to see you really, really need to see you show up and pull up on us and see what you have. I think that, that's a mistake, not a mistake, but that's just a bummer for everybody. We want to see, we want to see you do your thing. And I would love it if instead of doing nothing that artists, sometimes people would do something.Dan Runcie 16:39So you think part of it is that there's a hesitancy to try to capture the moment, or sometimes they can be a bit more resolute or hesitant to do things when there is an opportunity to go back out there.Kevin Shivers 16:51Or they just don't know, or they just are trying to get it perfect. And like, you know, you're going to we're all going to make mistakes, there's going to be ups and downs. I think sometimes you just got to go play, you know, you got to give the fans what they want.Dan Runcie 17:04Do you think any of this has become any more challenging in the social media era? Because one thing that I've heard both on the talent side is that artists are even more so particular about how everything looks from a live perspective, because that shot that goes on Instagram or that shot that goes on Tik Tok, that influences ticket sales, especially from, you know, whether it's the first show or whatever it is. Do you feel like artists are feeling like they need to have things more perfect even though deep down, you know, that it shouldn't be that way?Kevin Shivers 17:33I mean, it's got to be really, really tough because the cameras are always on somebody always, you know, whether you like it or not, is documenting things that you do. So I think that I couldn't even imagine how much pressure that is and how tough that has to be. You know that social media can be good. And there can be some other sides where you're like: Wow, this is tough.Dan Runcie 17:52Yeah, I know, we've talked a lot about Tyler and about hip hop overall. But I know another one of the major artists you represent is Summer Walker. And you know, she had a big year, last year as well. And I wanted the differences whether you're planning a tour for, or you're planning live events, in general, for R&B artists, as opposed to someone in hip hop.Kevin Shivers 18:14I don't think there's really many differences, I just think you have to just, it goes back to the same. There’s no any artist planning and really just get, you know, in figuring out what the goals that they have and how you can best service them, right? I don't really think there's a different strategy or a different lane. I think if you love Summer Walker, you love Summer Walker, you're gonna go out and see it, right? And she has, she has an incredible fan base.Dan Runcie 18:40Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Because one of the things I was wondering with someone like her.Knowing how passionate her fan base is, I was wondering if there was a connection of like: Oh, you know, the streams may show this and the data may show this, but because of how R&B fans are, there may be a bit more likelihood that that could translate to ticket sales or purchases as opposed to other genres.Kevin Shivers 19:02You know, I think the fans are going to come out that they love somebody and Summer respects our fans. People like Summer Walker followers, or they just, they love her. I think they're just going to come out and show up and see her play.Dan Runcie 19:14Now. That's real, that makes sense. So for you, I mean, I know, you got a full roster, and you're always making sure that you can maximize them to the best of their abilities. So how do you measure success for yourself as a partner and as someone that's representing them on their behalf? Kevin Shivers 19:30The answer is really simple: Helping others, right? I got into this business because I wanted to help artists grow. And it's like, it starts with the clients like you start thinking about, about people that I work with, like: What can I do to help them? What can I do to help them grow or give them everything that they need? Are we, you know, from last year to this year? Are we showing up every day to help them get to that next level? That's the first thing. I think also the way I measure success. It's like the same thing with helping others. Like it starts for me every day when my assistant Ebony, I think she's gonna be a great executive one day, but am I showing up for her? Do I slow down enough to answer her questions? Do I mentor her? Do I spend time with her? Because like, that's important to me. We have many, many amazing young agents that work here. Am I showing up enough to help them sign up clients? Am I giving them what they need? I think you know, measuring success. Is everybody around you doing well? Are you doing what's good for the organization? I co-run hip hop with Zach, Isaac, Caroline and James Rubby. And Caroline's always saying we got to take care of youngs, you know, it's Justin neighbor's getting what he needs? Is Sarah and Ronnie getting what they need? And then I think it's just, it's really about creating that culture, creating a universe, that the people you will arise into the next level of being selfless. And then also from a DNI perspective of like: What diverse people can we grow? Can we hire? Are we retaining them? These are all the ways that I measure success. I try not to look at what other people are doing. Because I mean, it doesn't really matter. I want to make sure that the organization and the people around me are set up for success.Dan Runcie 21:14I hear that. And I think a lot of the themes you mentioned there align with mentorship, and whether it's being a mentor or support for the artists that are looking to you for guidance, your co-workers and your colleagues. Can you talk a little bit more about why that's so important to you? Because even in reading and hearing other interviews, I know you've been active on that front, making sure that you can use your platform and where you are to pass the torch and help others along the way.Kevin Shivers 21:40I think mentorship is one of these things like, if we're not mentoring, then what are we doing? Why are we even showing up? You have to always be trying to look out for other people. I've had people that looked out for me and my career, people that still look out for me. And I think that is one of the key things. One of the reasons that makes me want to get up every day and come into the office is, like, helping others. I think that's one of the reasons why we're put on this earth to help people. A non-negotiable thing is mentorship. I mean, the crazy fact about, I'll go do an interview, or I'll do a panel and everybody that writes to me on IG or LinkedIn, I write everybody back, everybody. I mean, I probably send more people to the HR department here for jobs than anybody. Because I just want everybody back. I think that's important, because I was once the young kid who wanted to figure this out. And like I didn't know, I had no clue and people helped me. So I think that's a very important aspect of the job.Dan Runcie 22:35100%. And even on a personal level, I remember the first time you reached out to me, Hey, love what you're doing. Hey, how can I help? And you're just like: Oh, who do you want to interview? Oh, I was listening to them yesterday, boom, let's get this done. So even on a personal level, I need you out. You're looking out for me, man. I appreciate that. Kevin Shivers 22:52Yeah, I mean, well, you're doing it. I listen to your podcast every week. I think it's amazing. I think what you're doing for the culture is great. And I just wanted to get to know you and just to help where I can and, and that's just, that's what I think is important.Dan Runcie 23:05Definitely, definitely. And one of the things that you had put out, because a couple years back, but it really stuck out to me was this was right after George Floyd's murder and the music industry had the show must be paused response. And you had written these guest posts on Pollstar and you were talking about how this industry just needs to do better by its black execs specifically on the recruiting front. And I know you were just talking about how, you know, you're always pushing things forward to HR. And I'm sure this must be really personal for you as well, you are one of the few folks that looks like you in the position that you have in this whole industry. So I'd love to hear how you feel like the industry has responded since everything had happened after George Floyd's murder and the response to where we are now in 2022.Kevin Shivers 23:57You know, in response to your comment about I wanted a person who looks like me in the industry. I always say to everybody, I'm amazing, but I'm not that amazing. There's, there should be more people that look like me doing what I do and and you know, partners in hire, right? And I think we still have a lot of work to do. There's good news though. There's positive conversation around DNI, people are aware, people are aware that there needs to be more black people and more diverse people need to have more opportunities. I still think that we need to keep pushing the envelope, we still have a lot more to do in terms of hiring and creating opportunities for black people. The organization's know they have to do better, but they have to buck the old status quo. They have to go outside of the norm. And today to some people, it might be like: Oh, we're taking a risk. No, DNI has to be inside of your lifeline, inside of your blood, inside of your everyday practices. It's not something that you can just talk about once a quarter, you gotta live it, you got to be in it every day. And I believe that the black people need to be promoted, they need to be elevated. They need to be given the same opportunities and shots. When we were interviewing for jobs, I think in any, in any industry, not just entertainment, you need to be interviewing black people, people of color, LGBTQ, there just needs to be more opportunity. We need more Sylvia Rhone's, more Ethiopia's, more tons Jay-Z and Def Jam. We need more leaders, more partners. I mean, we have to just keep our foot on the gas, keep pushing the envelope because this, we're not there yet. But we're going in the right direction. And we need to keep the momentum.Dan Runcie 25:30Right. And I think even an example of that, the folks you just mentioned, I think a lot of folks in this industry are all on a first name basis. And as incredible as all those folks are, how do we get to the point where they're not on a first name basis, because they aren't just the few black execs in there. I mean, it's definitely going to continue to take time. And I think whether it's conversations like this, or the efforts you're doing will help. But I'm hopeful that it can get there eventually. Kevin Shivers 25:55I'm hopeful, too. I think we got to stay targeted and focus. But also at the same time, remember, like, this just didn't happen overnight, right? It's not going to change overnight. But we have to like, we have to keep, we have to stay on this because it can change and it needs to be better.Dan Runcie 26:11Definitely. So let's switch gears a bit. Let's talk a little bit about the future, specifically with regards to touring and technology and what things will look like in, the potential with Web 3.0 and the metaverse. Because now you have agencies that are specifically I'm sure WME likely also has a division where they focus specifically on digital environments, or getting artists lined up on that perspective. How do you look at that? Specifically, with the artists you have on your roster, what the potentials are for them in these digital worlds.Kevin Shivers 26:50I think Web 3.0 is just it's massive, huge, huge opportunity. You know, if you think about the evolution started in virtual, went over to Fortnite, but I just think it brings control back to the artists in a way. Artists had an act like this the whole time, these music artists, they've had fan clubs, they've had social media, but what Web 3.0 does, it gives more control to them. It's gonna give them more power, but like, it kind of cuts out the middleman and I think you know, things are gonna change in the next six months, next five years, it's gonna be an exciting world. If you look at what Coachella did, by selling the NFT, a lifetime Coachella pass. I mean, I think artists are gonna come up with these things where, you know, if you want to be in the front row of my show, here's the NFT for the chance to buy the front row tickets, or maybe it just goes inside of there. And they figure out what to promote, but I just think like, it's an exciting time. Like, it's the, it's endless. I was just on the phone with A Jones the other day, I love what he's doing with Royal. And I think the deal that he did with Nas and Antony Silay is, like,amazing; that looks like where things are headed. I mean, it's just, you know, like any of these things, it's gonna be ups and downs, right? In the Web 3.0, but I just think the opportunity is endless.Dan Runcie 28:01Yeah, things are early, things are also moving really fast. Six months from now, it's gonna look completely different. And I am excited for the artists that are taking advantage early. I feel like I can already imagine Camp Flog Gnaw Carnival having some type of digital environment or some type of experience in the metaverse.Kevin Shivers 28:21I'm sure it will, I'm sure Lollapalooza and some of these other properties. That's where they're headed. I mean, it's gonna be a really exciting time. I just hope people get off the couch, you still come out to show.Dan Runcie 28:35Is that a concern you have though? Like, do you wonder about that in the future?Kevin Shivers 28:39No, no, I was just joking. I mean, I don't think anything can replace the live experience, just like the Zooms are great, right? But I think when you're in a meeting with somebody, it's 10 times better. And I think a concert is 100 times better. I love, I love going to festivals, I've been to them all over the world. And I love seeing the reactions in real time on people's faces from their favorite artists hidden in the stage. So I don't think anything can replace it. I think it's going to only enhance the experience.Dan Runcie 29:07Agreed. That's what I always go back to. Everything in these experiences are additive and isn't a replacement for anything. And I think it'll probably just force more creativity for every aspect, because you're not just trying to have something be a catch all. So I think I'm interested to see how it'll continue to shape live performances and what that can look like from the, you know, the IRL experience. Yeah. And on that note, do you have any predictions for what you think the next three to five years or so will look like specifically in the lifespace? I mean, pandemic notwithstanding, I mean, obviously, I think we'll continue to see the after effects of that, but any type of, you know, evolutions are any type of future changes that you think will see over time.Kevin Shivers 29:51Yeah, I think 2022 is going to be bigger than we thought. I think that hopefully, I think we're headed to a healthy tour environment. I think there's going to be new players in terms of buyers and festivals. And I think the fan experience will that's going to be the thing of the future. I think everyone has realized they have to zero in on the fan from artists curated weekends and festivals to I think even super service in the fan. Think about this, think about a world where service lets you buy a ticket, has a car that picks you up, dinner reservations, great seats, even find you a babysitter.I think that's where we're going, we're going to this place, we're like: Okay, I can't even be, I'm busy. I didn't want to deal with this, boom, hit a button. And this is where we're going. I think that's exciting. Because you know, getting inside of the mind of the fan, what they really want is going to be the next evolution. Dan Runcie 30:42Yeah, even you mapping that out. If you literally could press one button and solve that, I think you'd also just increase the amount of people that can come through, right? You mentioned the babysitter, the amount of people that have young kids, and it's like, you know, just the thought of them needed like, oh, you know, we got to find someone for this to cover for this night. Like, yeah, if all that can be taken care of.Kevin Shivers 31:00Because I think people love live music, and live music is such a treat. But when you think about the hurdles you have to do, you got to put on some clothes, maybe, you know, show starts at seven, get homework, feed your kids, do this, do that. And if you could just take some of that away from them. That's like, you know, bringing the fan experience to a new level.Dan Runcie 31:21Definitely. So I know that you're always on the go with festivals. And you know, I know you love going into them. But I know it's also for your work as well. If you have to guess, how many shows do you think you'll go to in 2022?Kevin Shivers 31:33I can tell you this. I'd rather answer this way. How many days I plan on hitting a lot of festivals in 2022. So I think I'm going to be, I call it 50 to 60 days watching music, right? That's what I'd say.Dan Runcie 31:48Okay. Yeah. All right. And even that, I mean, that's a lot more than the average person. But I mean, it's just incredible. Because you get to just see all the fine tunes, you get to just see everything. And like you mentioned, this is interesting, you're traveling all across the world for this stuff.Kevin Shivers 32:02Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I mean, like, really, I get to go see live music in different parts of the world. I mean, I can't even imagine anything better than that.Dan Runcie 32:12Yeah. So last question. Before we let you go. I know we talked a lot about Tyler. And I know from our conversations, just the uniqueness of you seeing that star power and star potential, even from the first time you connect it. How do you find that next tile? Or how do you find that thing to know? Okay, yeah, this is the one that we need for this next generation. Kevin Shivers 32:34Oh, wow. I think when I'm looking to sign somebody, I'm looking for somebody that has a unique point of view, for somebody that is fearless, and then wants to do the work.Dan Runcie 32:43That makes sense. Hear that man. Hey, before we let you go, man, this was great. I'm glad you could come through and make this happen. But is there anything else you want to plug? Or let the Trapital audience know about it?Kevin Shivers 32:54I think everybody should go out and see some shows this year. I think 2022 is going to be a good year, and then one thing I want to say is to somebody who wants a career in entertainment, I think you should go for it. I think you should move to LA, move to New York, move to Atlanta, move to Nashville. Call, email some people; call, email me. I'll probably write you back pretty soon and just go for your dreams.Dan Runcie 33:15What's your email address?Kevin Shivers 33:17Kshivers@wmeagency.com. It's all good.Dan Runcie 33:23Now appreciate that, man. I welcome man. Thanks for coming through this as a pleasure.Kevin Shivers 33:27I appreciate you Dan.Dan Runcie 33:31If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, posted to your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. 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