
8th Layer Insights
Get ready for a deep dive into what cybersecurity professionals often refer to as the "8th Layer" of security: HUMANS. Welcome to 8th Layer Insights (8Li). This podcast is a multidisciplinary exploration into how the complexities of human nature affect security and risk. Author, security researcher, and behavior science enthusiast Perry Carpenter taps experts for their insights and illumination. Topics include cybersecurity, psychology, behavior science, communication, leadership, and more.
Latest episodes

Sep 20, 2022 • 45min
The Secrets to Consistently Creating Great Content
In this episode, Perry talks about the value of storytelling and provides 7 tips for anyone who faces the fear associated with staring at a blank screen, wondering how they can begin to create fresh content. This is adapted from a presentation Perry recently gave at the 2022 SANS Security Awareness Summit.Books & Resources:
Overview of "The Iron Triangle"
Visual Summary of Perry's SANS Security Awareness Summit presentation
YouTube Video: You are not a storyteller - Stefan Sagmeister @ FITC
Security is Alive: 8th Layer Insights, Season 2, episode 6
Creativity for Non Creatives: 8th Layer Insights, Season 2, episode 10
Igniting and Sustaining Creativity: 8th Layer Insights, Season 2, episode 1
Unleashing Trojan Horses for the Mind: 8th Layer Insights, Season 1, episode 1
Steal Like an Artist: 10 Things Nobody Told You About Being Creative, by Austin Kleon
Show Your Work: 10 Ways to Share Your Creativity and Get Discovered,, by Austin Kleon
MasterClass -- Margaret Atwood Teaches Creative Writing
"Everything is Alive" Podcast
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: perry [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
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Sep 6, 2022 • 49min
If It's Smart, It's Vulnerable: a Conversation with Mikko Hyppönen
In this episode, Perry sits down with Mikko Hyppönen for a wide ranging discussion about the history, current state, and future of cybersecurity. We also discuss Mikko's new book, the title of which is derived from Hyppönen's Law: If It's Smart, It's Vulnerable.Guest:Mikko Hyppönen (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (Web)Books & Resources:
If It's Smart, It's Vulnerable, by Mikko Hyppönen
Mikko's TED Talks
Daemon, by Daniel Suarez
Internet of Things and data placement, by Dell Technologies
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: perry [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
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Aug 23, 2022 • 46min
Finding Your Path: Mid-Career Moves into Cybersecurity
This is a follow-up to Season 2, episode 4 –Bridging the Cyber Skills Gap. Many listeners contacted me saying that they loved the episode, but wished that I’d put more focus on people trying to find a career in cybersecurity later in life. So, consider this episode a Bridging the Cyber Skills Gap Part 2.We’ll hear the stories of several people who’ve come to cybersecurity a bit later in life. This episode features interviews with Alethe Denis, Tracy Z. Maleeff (a.k.a. InfoSec Sherpa), Phillip Wylie, Lisa Plaggemier, Naomi Buckwalter, and Alyssa Miller.Guests:
Alethe Denis (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (LinkTree)
Tracy Z. Maleeff (a.k.a. InfoSec Sherpa) (LinkedIn) (Twitter)
Phillip Wylie (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (Medium)
Lisa Plaggemier (LinkedIn) (Twitter)
Naomi Buckwalter (LinkedIn)
Alyssa Miller (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (Website)
Books & Resources:
The Cybersecurity Career Guide, by Alyssa Miller
The Pentester BluePrint: Starting a Career as an Ethical Hacker, by Phillip Wylie
The Hacker Factory Podcast | With Phillip Wylie
Building the Next Generation of Cybersecurity Professionals, LinkedIn Learning course from Naomi Buckwalter
8Li: Fun and Games: Lock Picking, Capture the Flag Contests, Simulations, and More
How to Break Into Cybersecurity, article by Katlyn Gallo
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: perry [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
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Aug 9, 2022 • 47min
Cyber Mindfulness
You've probably been hearing the term 'mindfulness' a lot these days. And for good reason. We humans seem to be busier and more stressed out than ever before, and mindfulness practices seem to offer positive benefit. But how does mindfulness intersect with cybersecurity? What practices can we learn and promote to decrease human risk in our organizations and live safer digital lives?In this episode, we explore the topic of cyber mindfulness. And to do so, we'll be hearing from Anna Collard, Michael Davis, and Yvonne and Jasmine Eskenzi.Guests:
Anna Collard (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (Company Site)
Michael Davis (LinkedIn) (Company Site)
Yvonne Eskenzi (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (Company Site)
Jasmine Eskenzi (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (Company Site)
Books & Resources:
The Zensory App
Research Paper: The current state of mind: A systematic review of the relationship between mindfulness and mind-wandering
Research Paper: Training to Mitigate Phishing Attacks Using Mindfulness Techniques
Research Paper: Understand the mistakes that compromise your company's security
University of Dayton's Cyber Mindful program overview
The Human Firewall: 3 Mindfulness Techniques Your Team Can Use to Prevent Phishing
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: perry [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jun 22, 2022 • 27min
Lockpicking, Physical Penetration Testing, and More with Deviant Ollam
On this bonus episode, Perry sits down with physical penetration tester, lock picking guru, and Board Member of The Open Organization of Lockpickers (TOOOL), Deviant Ollam. They discuss lockpicking, physical penetration testing, locksport, and the ethics of teaching these skills.Guest:Deviant Ollam (Twitter) (YouTube) (Website)Books & Resources:
8th Layer Insights S2E8: Fun and Games: Lock Picking, Capture the Flag Contests, Simulations, and More
Lockpicking Resources from Deviant Ollam
Keys to the Kingdom: Impressioning, Privilege Escalation, Bumping, and Other Key-Based Attacks Against Physical Locks, by Deviant Ollam. (Amazon affiliate link)
Practical Lock Picking: A Physical Penetration Tester's Training Guide, by Deviant Ollam. (Amazon affiliate link)
TOOOL US -- The Open Organization of Lockpickers
TOOOL US instructional videos on YouTube
The Official TOOOL Slides
The Lockpicking Lawyer on YouTube
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter (Amazon affiliate link)
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer (Amazon affiliate link)
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: perry [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jun 7, 2022 • 45min
The Lazarus Heist: Investigative Journalism, Podcasting, and North Korean Hacking (with Geoff White)
On this bonus episode, Perry sits down with investigative journalist, speaker, podcaster, and author, Geoff White to talk about his path into investigative journalism, podcasting, and his new book, "The Lazarus Heist: From Hollywood to High Finance: Inside North Korea's Global Cyber War."Guest:Geoff White (LinkedIn) (Twitter) (Website)Books & Podcasts:
Lazarus Heist Book
Lazarus Heist Podcast
Crime Dot Com: From Viruses to Vote Rigging, How Hacking Went Global
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter (Amazon affiliate link)
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer (Amazon affiliate link)
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: perry [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

May 17, 2022 • 5min
An Announcement, a Request, and How You Can Win Some $$$
Please take the listener survey--->>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/8LI_Survey <<<---One of the things that defines 8th Layer Insights is the amount of writing, editing, and production that’s involved. Each episode generally takes about 30 hours of work to complete. And, since this is a personal project, that equates to quite a few late nights and weekends. It can be exhausting… but it’s totally worth it. YOU make it worth it.One of my main goals is ensuring that I’m doing everything possible to make this show sustainable AND continuing to improve and to never sacrifice quality. So – with that being said – I’ll let you in on how I’m planning to do it. Just a couple weeks ago, I created a company called 8th Layer Media and have brought on a brilliant partner – his name is Mason Amadeus. Mason will serve as a co-Creative Director and Production Manager. (like Carl, but more competent). Don’t worry – Carl will still be around in season 3 and beyond. It’s hard to unseat Carl. But Mason will play a big part in increasing my capacity.Here’s where you can help: we need your input on what’s working with the show and what can be improved. We want your honest, unfiltered feedback so that we can make a show that isn’t just good – it’s great… consistently great. We also want to get information on how you first found out about 8th Layer Insights, what topics you want the show to explore and more.We even want to know if you have better ideas for the name of the show. …Seriously, if you submit an alternate show name, and we decide to adopt that name, you’ll win a $300 Amazon gift card. There will be other prizes as well.If you’re ready to help shape the future of 8th Layer Insights, take the survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/8LI_SurveySurvey closes Friday, June 3, 2022.Perry's Books:
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter (Amazon affiliate link)
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer (Amazon affiliate link)
Wondering who Mason is? Here are a few links:
Twitter (@itsMasonAmadeus)
Website (https://masonamadeus.com/)
Podcast (PodCube)
Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: hello [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

May 5, 2022 • 13min
An Interview with a Password
If you could interview a password, what questions would you ask?Today, May 5th, 2022 is World Password Day. World Password Day was first established in 2013 and is celebrated each year on the 1st Thursday in May. To celebrate, I thought it would be fun to share an excerpt of a previous episode ("Security is Alive") where I interviewed multiple security-related objects. This clip is my interview with Dave the Password.Stick around after the interview for a few password-related tips and best practices! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

May 3, 2022 • 1h 13min
Creativity for Non-Creatives
Creativity can be a scary topic for technologists. Most of us haven't been trained in the art and science of creativity and so they either feel out of their depth when called on to create content. But it doesn't have to be that way. In this episode, Perry sits down with New York Times bestselling author, Michelle Richmond, Audible bestselling author Rob Dircks, and two critically acclaimed cybersecurity podcasters, Ran Levi (creator and host of the Malicious Life podcast) and David Spark (creator and host of the CISO Series podcast) to discuss creativity, how to create relatable content, and how to communicate technology-related content in clear and compelling ways.Guests:
Ran Levi (LinkedIn) (Website)
David Spark (LinkedIn) (Website)
Michelle Richmond (LinkedIn) (Website) (Amazon Page)
Rob Dircks (LinkedIn) (Website) (Amazon Page)
Books and Resources:
8Li Season 1, Episode 1: Unleashing Trojan Horses for the Mind
8Li Season 2, Episode 1: Igniting and Sustaining Creativity
8Li Season 2, Episode 2: You're Listening to "The Dark Stream"
8Li Season 2, Episode 3: Technology & the Law of Unintended Consequences
8Li Season 2, Episode 6: Security is Alive
"Malicious Life" Podcast, Ran Levi
"CISO Series" Podcast, David Spark
How do you explain virtualization to your mom? -- David Spark video
"Everything is Alive" Podcast
"Writing Excuses" Podcast
The Wonder Test: A Novel, by Michelle Richmond (Amazon affiliate link)
The Marriage Pact: A Novel, by Michelle Richmond (Amazon affiliate link)
Where the Hell is Tesla? A Novel, by Rob Dircks (Amazon affiliate link)
You're Going to Mars (An Audible Original), by Rob Dircks (Amazon affiliate link)
Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting, by Robert McKee (Amazon affiliate link)
HBR Guide to Persuasive Presentations (HBR Guide Series), by Nancy Duarte (Amazon affiliate link)
Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, by Roy Sutherland (Amazon affiliate link)
How Creativity Rules the World: The Art and Business of Turning Your Ideas into Gold, by Maria Brito (Amazon affiliate link)
On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft, by Stephen King (Amazon affiliate link)
You Are an Artist: Assignments to Spark Creation, by Sarah Urist Green
Ticktime Pomodoro Timer (Amazon affiliate link)
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter (Amazon affiliate link)
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer (Amazon affiliate link)
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: hello [at] 8thLayerMedia [dot] com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Apr 19, 2022 • 50min
The Next Evolution of Security Awareness
"Security Awareness" is a slippery topic for a lot of people. It's a well known phrase -- and, let's face it, it's a phrase that can be very misleading. In this episode, Perry sits down with Dr. Jessica Barker (author and co-CEO at Cygenta), Cassie Clark (Security Awareness Lead Engineer at Brex), John Scott (Head of Security Education at Bank of England), and Lance Spitzner (Director, SANS Institute: Founder, Honeynet Project) to discuss what is currently being done well and, more importantly, where it needs to grow over the next few years. Spoiler alert: it's all about managing human risk.Guests:
Dr. Jessica Barker (LinkedIn) (Twitter)
Cassie Clark (LinkedIn) (Twitter)
John Scott (LinkedIn) (Twitter)
Lance Spitzner (LinkedIn) (Twitter)
Books and Resources:
8Li S1 E9: Security ABCs Part 1: Make Awareness Transformational
8Li S1 E10: Security ABCs Part 2: 8th Layer Insights and the Quest for Security Culture
Cybersecurity ABCs: Delivering awareness, behaviours and culture change by Jessica Barker, Adrian Davis, Bruce Hallas, & Ciarán Mc Mahon
A Data-Driven Computer Defense: A Way to Improve Any Computer Defense by Roger A. Grimes
Security Awareness Program Builder: Practical guidelines for building your Information Security Awareness Program & prep guide for the Security Awareness and Culture Professional (SACP)™ by Mark Majewski
People-Centric Security: Transforming Your Enterprise Security Culture by Lance Hayden
Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action by Simon Sinek (Amazon affiliate link)
Transformational Security Awareness: What Neuroscientists, Storytellers, and Marketers Can Teach Us About Driving Secure Behaviors, by Perry Carpenter (Amazon affiliate link)
The Security Culture Playbook: An Executive Guide To Reducing Risk and Developing Your Human Defense Layer by Perry Carpenter & Kai Roer (Amazon affiliate link)
Production Credits:Music and Sound Effects by Blue Dot Sessions, Envato Elements, & Storyblocks.Artwork by Chris Machowski @ https://www.RansomWear.net/ and Mia Rune @ https://www.MiaRune.com.8th Layer Insights theme music composed and performed by Marcos Moscat @ https://www.GameMusicTown.com/Want to get in touch with Perry? Here's how:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Instagram
Email: hello [at] 8thLayerInsights [dot] com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices