The Leadership Podcast

Richie Norton is the author of "Anti-Time Management," and a Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coach. He is the CEO of Prouduct, an INC. 5000 company. In this episode, Richie opens up about tragedies that changed the way he lives, works, and spends time with his family. Richie describes work-life flexibility in three parts: Ability, Availability, and Autonomy. His message: Don't defer your dreams. https://bit.ly/TLP-332 Key Takeaways [2:15] Richie Norton walks his dog on the beach every day. He travels the world and works from his phone. [2:29] The name of his company, Prouduct, means products you're proud of. At any given time, they make over 100 products. Besides being an entrepreneur, Richie coaches and consults. He is happily married and has seven children including three fosters. His youngest passed away but would have just turned 13. [3:50] Years ago, Richie was in Nashville working with the Zig Ziglar team on a project. He got a text from the State of Hawaii that a missile was about to hit his house on Oahu. Then a text that said it was not a test. He called home and finally, his son answered the phone crying, "I love you, Dad." He thought these were his last moments. It was all a mistake. It shook Richie into thinking about other events. [5:02] Richie's brother-in-law, Gavin, his wife's only brother, had been living with their family. He passed away in his sleep at age 21. Life is short. They started living their lives differently and thinking about time differently. Richie's fourth son, Gavin, named after his uncle, was born. He had a cough. Doctors said he was fine, but it turned out he had pertussis. In the hospital, he slipped away in his mother's arms. [6:25] In thinking of these two tragedies, Richie came up with Gavin's Law: "Live to Start, Start to Live." Take the ideas that press on your mind, and start living them. Too many people push ideas aside claiming they don't have the education, time, or money to make them happen. [7:11] Richie worked with Stephen M.R. Covey while in his twenties, training executives. Richie thought he was too young for the job but it wasn't about his experience, it was about continuous improvement and learning. [8:05] Richie speaks of some life events. His foster children returned to their biological mother. His wife had a stroke and lost her memory. The business deal that took him to Hawaii fell through. His son got hit crossing the road and was badly injured. He is OK now. His wife got her memory back. Richie was shouldering a lot when he changed his life's trajectory by putting meaning behind these events. [9:52] With meaning, Richie was able to keep his faith and continue moving forward. His meaning was in asking himself, "How can I live better, not bitter?" When you get stuck on what happened, ask yourself how to assign positive meaning. Approach your work from the dream, not toward the dream. [10:57] Covey would say, begin with the end in mind. He didn't say, to begin with, the means in mind. You can change goals, habits, and strengths, which are all just means to an end. The approach of working from the dream and not endlessly toward it is powerful. You can collapse time. It's a different way of thinking, living, and working. It's anti-time management. [12:54] Richie learned that grief is a tunnel, not a cave. Things happen that impact us and the way we see where we're going and what we have to look forward to. Richie's purpose is his family. He wants to create the ability to have availability. Purpose is having character, creating relationships of trust, and being available for his family, and those for whom he needs to be available when they need him most. [15:48] Richie describes work-life flexibility in three parts: ability, availability, and agility or autonomy. When you look at the world through autonomy, availability, and ability, you can see how free you are to make the choices that you do, including the consequences. [18:28] You have to value your time, not time your values. You can't sacrifice what you love for success. When you sacrifice what you love for success, you get neither. Infuse your work with your values or you will get a hollow life with hollow hopes. You can have money and meaning. You've got to bake it in from the start. [21:17] The second industrial revolution in the late 1800s came from the concept of time-motion studies. It is now known as Taylorism or time management. It was designed to control and master every aspect of workers. It takes and squeezes everything out of the worker for as long as possible to the point of breaking. Time management is about who controls how you use your time. [22:32] Anti-Time Management gives you control over your time. In Time Management, others tell you what to do. In Anti-Time Management, you decide. There is a balance between the two approaches. A full calendar is an empty life. An empty calendar means you're a leader; it's been handled. [25:18] The recent pandemic was the first time in history that everyone was experiencing the same thing at the same time. Technology advanced. Companies and talent started learning what was possible. People started seeing the world in a new way. People started distrusting companies and news outlets more than ever before. Of course, the corporations want everyone to come back in! [26:38] Can productivity increase working from home? It depends on the situation. [26:47] The leadership quality of the future that will be the most important leadership quality is discernment. When you have these gaps in data and interpretation, we need leaders and talent who can use discernment to fill them in to decide the direction we're going to go. [27:50] Never have the switching costs of moving from one company to another been lower. People change jobs every 4.6 years. The company that supports talent in working for their role in the home is going to be the winner. [29:02] As soon as flexibility becomes a corporate benefit to the employee, it's not a benefit to the employee anymore, it's a longer leash. [29:56] Discernment comes in asking better questions for better answers. Problems are multi-dimensional. With discernment, you can make decisions that no one else saw. Ask open-ended questions. You can develop discernment. Richie has great mentors and surrounds himself with good people that think differently. It helps to listen to great podcasts like The Leadership Podcast. [33:23] If a chick doesn't break out of its egg, it dies. Fear, negative pride, and procrastination are like an eggshell that we must break through to be our authentic selves. If you had no fear, pride, or procrastination, what would you be capable of? How would you feel? What would you do? You would be you. We go around trying to avoid past traumas through our decisions. [36:10] Richie sees that people have fear at work. In corporations, there is 99% work signaling and 1% working. Jan cites Joel Peterson, former Chairman of JetBlue: "24 hours is more than enough time per day." Richie talks about having a purpose or reason bigger than your fear. At the end of the day, you get what you want, tragedies aside. You've got to be willing to do the work. [40:17] Richie does not like the retirement mentality. It has destroyed generations of people. He wants people to talk about it, as he does in Anti-Time Management. The retirement mentality is to put off what you want to do until you retire. You can do what you want now and find a way to responsibly support yourself your whole life. [42:06] Richie talks about the marshmallow test. The original study indicated that a child willing to wait 15 minutes for a larger reward rather than accepting a smaller reward now, would do better in life. But later studies showed that was not true. Richie compares the patient child to the obedient employee, willing to wait for rewards. Waiting is great for some things, but not for everything. [44:36] Your lifestyle is changed by how you get paid. The way you operate, the way you work, and the way you do things in order to earn, dictate your life. If you can work in a way where more gets done in less time, it will expand your ability to live, create, and be hyper-productive. Consider your purpose, priority, projects, and payments: If your payments can align with your purpose, you're set. [45:59] Closing quote: Remember, "Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you." — Carl Sandburg Quotable Quotes "I don't think people work for work's sake; I think we work for something else, and so I love to help people create that something else and find work to support it." "I held him for a second and handed him to my wife; she was in a rocking chair and I had my hand on his heart and we sang lullabies. He slipped away. There's nothing like having a human being die in your arms. There's just nothing like that." "I came up with what I call Gavin's Law, which is 'Live to start, start to live.'" "People say they have 20 years' experience when in reality they only have one year's experience, repeated 20 times. … Let's go to work." — Stephen M.R. Covey, per Richie Norton "A lot of times [people] get stuck on what happened. … Ask, … 'How can I assign positive meaning to this?' Because … if you can, then you can figure out your approach. When you approach something from the dream and not endlessly toward it, you work entirely differently." "Goals, habits, and strengths have become means, that have become ends unto themselves. They're just means to an end. You can change the goals, habits, and strengths." "The way time tippers in Anti-Time Management treat time is the way Marie Kondo treats clothes and closet space. We look at it with, 'What brings us joy? What doesn't? What served us? What hasn't?'" "You have to value your time, not time your values." "I believe that the leadership quality of the future that will be the most important leadership quality is discernment. … When you have these gaps, we need leaders and talent who can use discernment to fill them in to decide the direction we're going to go." "There are more opportunities than ever. … People are saying to me, 'How do we get the talent back?' … Just hold on. … Never in the history of the world have the switching costs of working in one job or another been lower." "If you want to be … the leader that brings in other leaders, … now we have an opportunity to show love, to be egoless, to look for talent where we are supporting them in the role that they're working for … the role in the home; those are the companies that are going to win." "Any fear that happens, if you don't have a bigger purpose or a bigger reason, why would you do something about it? People are scared of losing their jobs and they stay." "Change the way you get paid — change your life." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Richie Norton Anti-Time Management: Reclaim Your Time and Revolutionize Your Results with the Power of Time Tipping, by Richie Norton Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches Prouduct INC. 5000 Zig Ziglar Stephen M.R. Covey Marie Kondo Second Industrial Revolution Taylorism Harry Potter "10 Ways to Crush Life (in 2 minutes by Richie Norton)" Joel Peterson JetBlue The Marshmallow Test

Warwick Fairfax is the Founder of Crucible Leadership, a philosophical and practical approach for turning business and personal failures into the fuel for living life on purpose, in service to others. In this interview, Warwick shares the wisdom gained from losing his 150 year-old family business worth two-billion-dollars. He talks about how he became a person of intention and reflection. He discusses how we need to delve into our values and beliefs and live in alignment with them. He shares why character means more than credentials. Listen in for the ultimate lesson on working through adversity and the importance of resilience. https://bit.ly/TLP-331 Key Takeaways [1:51] Warwick is a big cricket fan. He looks forward to watching a big upcoming Australian cricket tournament on an obscure cable channel in the U.S. [3:24] Warwick grew up in Australia in his family's 150-year-old media business. It felt like it was his duty to go into the company. He went to Oxford, as his father had done. He worked on Wall Street, then got his MBA at Harvard Business School. He was seen by his parents as the heir apparent. He could not choose not to go into it. [5:38] Warwick believed the company wasn't being well-run. In his youthful idealism, he launched a $2.25 billion takeover in August 1987. Things went wrong from the start. Other family members sold out and didn't believe in Warwick or his vision. The company had an unsustainable level of debt. Warwick tried everything to keep it going. In 1990 they filed for bankruptcy. The company was sold. [7:20] Warwick's wife is American and the couple moved to America in the early '90s; they have been here ever since. Warwick's crucible was devastating. In Crucible Leadership, a crucible is defined as a devastating setback or failure that fundamentally transforms your life. It was excruciating. How could he have been so dumb with a Harvard MBA? Warwick was in a bad pit of despair. He was at rock bottom. [9:40] Warwick was 26 years old when he launched the takeover. Blue-chip merchant bankers advised him not to do it. So he found less reputable bankers who told him, sure they can do it. They just didn't tell him that it wouldn't be sustainable. Warwick ignored the good advice and listened to the bad advice. [12:38] Warwick credits his stability with his Christian faith which has always been the center of his life. His crucible brought him closer to his beliefs. Warwick believes God loves us all unconditionally. He doesn't need our stuff or our successes; we're not our rank or position, we're valued as human beings, beautifully and wonderfully made. Warwick's faith is a cornerstone. [13:32] Warwick's wife loves him unconditionally. Losing a couple of billion did not change that. In the '90s, Warwick and his wife started having children. Warwick found meaningful work, such as doing finance at a local aviation services company and business analysis. The love of his family strengthened him. As he says on the podcast, Beyond the Crucible®, you're not defined by your worst day. [14:40] You have to dig deeply into your fundamental beliefs and values; are you going to be defined by your biggest mistake or this biggest thing that's happened to you? When something bad happens to you, you can either be angry and bitter at others or yourself for years, or you can say, "This is awful; this is unconscionable; what I did was stupid; OK, but I have a choice how I move on from here, how I live." [15:51] Warwick's essential problem was that he was living somebody else's life. You've got to live your life and do what you were called to do, regardless of what laudable professions your parents have followed. You love your parents, but you don't need to do what they did. You've got to be you. [16:52] Failure can be helpful if it leads you to examine yourself. Often, vision comes out of the ashes of your crucible. The key is you've got to live your own life. You can't inherit a vision. You've got to own it. You've got to feel like it's your vision. That's at the core of leading with uncompromised authenticity. [19:57] When you grow up in wealth, the crucibles are different but they're there. Warwick always felt extremely stressed by the sense of obligation to go into the family business. Growing up, if Warwick got in legal trouble, he knew it would be front-page news. He could not afford to fail and embarrass his family. Life won't always be perfect. You don't need to look for failure or crucibles. [21:57] Crucible Leadership surveyed around 5,000 people asking how many of them had experienced crucibles of life-changing circumstances over their lives. It was 71%. There's a 70% chance that people you know have gone through crucibles. Be forewarned before the battle. Have a game plan. [23:23] Over the years, Warwick has asked executives what their values and beliefs are and to what degree they are living in alignment with their values and beliefs. If they are out of alignment, he asks, would they rather change their values and beliefs, or change how they live? They always want to get in alignment with their values and beliefs. Ask the question. People often miss that they are not aligned. [25:35] If coaches don't ask their executive clients about values and beliefs, nobody may ask and the clients may never think about it. They may go through life asking "Why is life so difficult? Why am I having all these crucibles?" Well, it may be self-inflicted. Maybe living out of alignment with their values and beliefs is part of the reason. [26:23] Warwick offers "must-dos" to lead through a crisis. First, your team must feel heard. That doesn't mean you do everything they say. Show empathy, appreciate their concern, and explain why you are going in a different direction. If they feel heard, they are OK with a different decision, as long as it is not a moral difference. Your team should know you care about them as people. [28:47] If you listen to a team, and you've never taken input from any of them in 10 years, just saying "I hear you," is not going to fly. At some point, you've got to take some input from your team, or listening is artificial. You need to know your blind spots. If you've got bright people on your team, you've got to trust them. If they all agree on something else, there's a good chance that they're right. Be humble. [30:34] Ego stops us from doing things that every business book advises. Every Executive coach will say, "Trust your team." Because of ego, we don't do it, and it leads to business failure or suboptimal performance. [31:39] It's not just about getting to know people but about caring. You can't teach people to care. If you don't feel that people are worthwhile and deserve to be cared for, Warwick advises you to step away; resign. Let some other man or woman step into your job who can do a better job. If you have people on your team who demonstrate they don't care for others, let them go and do damage somewhere else. [35:20] Warwick states that hiring people that don't care is bad for long-term company performance. If you don't provide a caring, nurturing environment, you will not hire good people. It's as hard to hire good people as it has been in the last hundred years. If you believe in your company's long-term performance, you'll hire people who care. [36:33] Warwick would rather hire someone who cares than someone with the highest academic credentials. Their team will stick with that leader who cares. Hire for character. It's the right economic choice and business choice. It's the right ethical and values choice. [38:44] Warwick reflects on what he as an executive coach might have told his 26-year-old self, but he says it wouldn't have helped. He would not have been moved from his plan at 26. Sometimes things happen and you have to go through them to learn the lesson. [39:56] In general, with young people, Warwick would coach them to make sure they understand their values, ethics, and beliefs. He would ask how what they are doing serves their values, ethics, and beliefs. People following a calling in line with their values and beliefs don't stop at roadblocks. If they need help, they ask for it. [40:45] Warwick will sometimes ask his team to reassure him before a presentation because he knows the material, but his emotions tell him he might fail. A strong, confident person is willing to admit their vulnerabilities and ask for help, at an appropriate level of sharing. It doesn't make you less of a leader, admitting you're a little bit nervous. [42:33] When you go through a crucible, don't waste it. Learn the lessons. Have After-Action Reports. Learn to do what fits your values, beliefs, and wiring better. [45:39] Warwick shares his views on business valuation. Executives often wrap their identity in what they do. They wonder if they sell low if that makes them worth less as a person. After they sell, at any price, what are they, since they are not Joe Business-owner? Don't let your business identity stop you from making a rational business decision. [47:48] Don't just have an exit strategy; have a life strategy after selling the business. There are many worthwhile options, such as heading a non-profit, donating your time, creating a new start-up, or becoming a mentor, advisor, or angel investor. Close one chapter and start another chapter. Know your why. You've sold your company, not your identity. [50:24] It's hard not to see your identity wrapped up in what you do. It's easy to say; it's really hard. It's normal to feel pain when you sell a business. Jan cites Clayton Christensen, "How will you measure your life?" [51:26] Closing quote: Remember, "If there is no struggle, there is no progress." — Frederick Douglass Quotable Quotes "It was my sacred duty to go into the family business because we didn't just produce widgets, we produced something that was of service to the nation of Australia. … This sense of duty was so hard-wired in me, I could not not go into it." — Warwick "I'm pretty good at giving grace to others; pretty bad at giving grace to myself. … I have a tendency to think if there's a problem in the world, it's my fault. I tend not to blame others." "They said, 'Warwick, the numbers don't add up, don't do it.' Well, that wasn't what I wanted to hear." "When you go through a crucible, it either draws you closer to your verities and beliefs or further away." "We say this all the time; we have our own podcast, Beyond the Crucible®, 'You're not defined by your worst day.'" "You don't always have a choice about what happened to you but you can choose how you look at your life, moving forward. That's the essence of beginning to get out of the pit of despair and beyond your crucible." "My dad was sort of the intellectual guy that would have been a better philosophy professor. He was not a business guy at all. I mean, John Fairfax, my great-great-grandfather was a business guy but those genes had long since faded by the time it got to me, fifth generation." "The key is you've got to live your own life. … It's great to love your parents but you can't inherit a vision. You've got to own it. You've got to feel like it's your vision. So that's probably at the core of leading with uncompromised authenticity." "Unless you ask the question, they don't even realize they're living out of alignment with their values and beliefs because they don't know what [they are]. We, as coaches, can really help our clients by just asking those questions. If we don't ask, nobody may ask." "Typically founders are not very good general managers. They're good entrepreneurs but they're just different skills, so be humble enough to trust your team. It sounds so simple and so easy but ego gets in the way and that's the problem." "Every executive coach will say, 'Trust your team.' This is not new, what I'm saying. But because of ego, people don't do it. It's so sad; frankly, it's stupid. It will lead to business failure or suboptimal performance." "I believe that hiring people that don't care is bad for profitability and bad for long-term performance of the company. Maybe not short-term earnings per share, but long-term, because people like to work for people who care." "Young people increasingly have choices and if you don't provide a caring, nurturing environment, you won't hire them. It's as hard today to find good people as it's ever been in the last maybe 100 years. … If you believe in … your company, hire people who care." "If you're following a calling that you're passionate about that's in line with your values and beliefs when you hit those roadblocks, you won't stop. And when you do hit them, … a brave man or woman asks for help." "You're more than just your title. You're more than just a nameplate on your door. If that's who you think you are, then that's very tragic because you're set up for misery and a bit of a fall. So, there's some soul work, in the broad sense of the word, that you've got to do." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Warwick Fairfax Crucible Leadership Beyond the Crucible® Podcast Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance, by Warwick Fairfax Cricket Tournaments in Australia Fairfax Media Oxford Harvard Business School Douglas MacArthur West Point Drexel Burnham John Fairfax The MacKay 66 Harvey MacKay Clayton Christensen

Lieutenant General Mark Schwartz retired from the U.S. Army after 33 years. A career Special Forces Officer, Mark served in a multitude of command and staff assignments, including the United States Security Coordinator of the Israel-Palestinian Authority. In this interview, Mark reveals the importance of having the right advocates in your corner. Mark shares his advice for young leaders, women leaders, and others on being intentional and deliberate with how they approach their careers. https://bit.ly/TLP-330 Key Takeaways [3:10] Mark is pleased to be back in his home state of Colorado. Now that he is retired and has the opportunity to speak to civil society, he is focused on advocacy for women in leadership. [4:28] Strategic influence and influence at the local level come from having the right advocates in your corner. Mark talks about the effects that suspending diplomatic relations between the Trump administration and the Palestinian Authority had in 2019. President Abbas had lost his most important ally and his influence waned, while Netanyahu's influence increased. [10:12] Mark learned from his time in Israel that everyone wants a leader who is ethically sound and has the character they want to emulate. It's all about the people you have the privilege to represent and lead. If you're not an example they're proud of, people leave the organization and move on to find other leaders they want to work for and work with. [13:38] Politics has entered the business conversation. In the military, it is necessary to support the administration, even though the oath is to the U.S. Constitution, not to an administration. In the military, you can voice your opposition at every election. Mark recommends following thbusiness practice: use your voice at the ballot box, not at work, to avoid some real challenges in the workplace. [17:58] Loosely-bonded political alliances are essential. Mark illustrates that point with his first joint task at NATO leading the ground planning for a NATO mission expansion in Afghanistan. It was a very educational experience to learn the importance of inclusion. It applies also to businesses. Not everybody is going to get what they want but the voice of the collective body is powerful. [22:33] Empathy at the staff and HQ levels for your coalition partners is an important aspect of success. You are representing your nation's interests, but you respect the caveats and interests of others. [26:18] In speaking of developing leadership, Mark describes an event along the Pakistani border that turned a situation from tactical to strategic quickly, for over six months. Mark was on mid-tour leave, but he called his commander to see if he was needed. He was told that someone he had helped develop had the situation in hand. The young operations officer managed a report to generals remarkably well. [29:27] Mark shares a model for advocacy for women in the military and business. The talent between men and women is similar. Merit is the most important factor. If you aren't consciously creating opportunities for fair and equal competition for promotion or strategic-level leadership, you let some of your best folks go. Consider the propensity to serve. Keep the standards consistent. [33:51] People appreciate candid and honest feedback. All candidates are not equal. If someone is not qualified, you owe them that feedback to let them know why. Some preconceptions still exist. On one occasion, Mark explained to a female staff member that he was going to a well-qualified female executive officer to make an important statement to the command. [36:38] When the Berlin wall came down in 1989, Mark thought that peace was almost here. There are still conflicts. Success against conflict comes through will and resolve, as Ukraine is showing the world. Mark talks about the Taliban taking over Afghanistan. As a nation, we need to understand the psyche of a country and determine what is achievable. [40:10] Mark discusses negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis, and why the Palestinians' determination not to participate in any normalization dialog didn't help them. Mark sees opportunities to work privately to create a better environment for the civil society of both Israelis and Palestinians. Mark offers suggestions of steps to take to get on track to reduce the levels of violence and tensions. [45:23] Mark's advice for young businesspeople with leadership aspirations is to focus on doing the best you can on the job you have. Build your core competencies. After three to five years, make your desire to take on an entry-level leadership responsibility known to your next-level leadership. That could lead to getting a mentor or sponsor. Management should be on the lookout for bright women and men. [47:03] After you get your first leadership position, you will run into a lot of firsts. You will want a mentor or advocate because you don't always go to your boss for help in dealing with things. [47:53] If you desire to be a leader and develop talent in your organization, you've got to identify early those individuals that have the potential to mentor you. The higher in the organization you are, the more important it is to be mentored. As you move up to mid-management, that is when most women stop rising in the organization. The C-Suite needs to watch for women with merit to mentor. [50:22] Mark is very grateful not only to have had the opportunity to serve as an American soldier but also to have had the support of the American people throughout his career. That support is highly appreciated by everybody who has served and who continues to serve. [52:37] Closing quote: "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." — George Orwell Quotable Quotes "If you don't have the right advocates in your corner, it's very hard to have any influence." — Mark "It's unfortunate when situations play out where the military is viewed as being politicized. As a senior leader in the military, it certainly disturbed me to see." — Mark "If you're truly doing your job in terms of talent and leader development, your responsibility is to advocate for those that you see potential in and create opportunities and provide advice, counsel, and sponsorship for those that deserve it." — Mark "There's no other way [besides DEI that] we're going to balance equality across the workforce at every level." — Mark "If you desire to be a leader and you desire to develop talent in your organization, you've got to identify early those individuals that have that potential. And as you get more senior, it becomes all the more important." — Mark Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Mark C. Schwartz LTG(Ret) Special Operators Transition Foundation Event in Chicago, Summer 2022 Christian Anschuetz Project RELO Israel President Mahmoud Abbas Palestinian National Authority President Benjamin Netanyahu Iran Tip O'Neill NATO McKinsey Research The Taliban IEDs ISIS

Hasard Lee is an F-35 pilot in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, and has flown 82 combat missions. He has the distinction of being the only fighter pilot to employ two different types of jets in combat on the same day. Hasard is a content creator with one of the largest defense channels on YouTube - with over 54 million views and a reach of 290 million people. Hasard has a book coming out in May 2023, The Art of Clear Thinking: A Stealth Fighter Pilot's Timeless Rules for Making Tough Decisions. In this conversation, Hasard shares the rules for making tough decisions. https://bit.ly/TLP-329 Key Takeaways [2:44] Hasard joined the Reserves in 2020. He still flies once in a while. Most of his time is devoted to writing his upcoming book. Hasard's father was a physicist in the Department of Energy so they moved from Livermore, CA, to Los Alamos, NM, and Washington D.C. for his job. Hasard went to his first air show when he was five. He has pictures of himself in an F-15 with a helmet on. [3:59] Hasard got the flying bug when he was five. He memorized all the jets and was passionate about them. When he was 12, a friend of a friend of his father's took him up in a Cessna 152 and Hasard got a little bit of yoke time. After that, he was hooked and he knew he wanted to fly in the Air Force. He started taking steps in high school to make it happen. [6:11] The happy place for fighter pilots is in the cockpit, flying. But developing systems for training fighter pilots on the F-35 is one of the best things Hasard has ever done. The F-35 is the most expensive weapons system in history and will probably fly into the 2070s. The training tech included simulators on laptops, VR goggles, and high-end simulators, all setting pilots on the right path for the next decades. [9:03] Joining pilots of different jets into one program is like a merger. And most mergers fail! Hasard contrasts the competencies of A-10 pilots for close air support for troops on the ground with the F-16 pilots that do much of what the F-35 pilots do, and the F-22 and F-15C pilots. Part of Hasard's job was to create the syllabus, building from the lowest common denominator of what the pilots knew. [11:54] Hasard planned his book to be entertaining and to incorporate some of the principles he learned as a fighter pilot. Most chapters have a story from Hasard's time flying and a story from history or the business world. He breaks it down through ACE: Assess, Choose, and Execute. That's how fighter pilots make decisions. It's developed from John Boyd's OODA loop: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. [12:44] Hasard explains assessing and prioritizing the information that comes before you using laws of power: exponential growth, diminishing returns, and knees in the curve; how to make decisions based on expected values; and execution. The number one thing is being prepared. Start with visualization, or "chair flying" from the beginning to the end in your mind, and plan how to handle contingencies. [18:07] How do you learn to evaluate the odds? With debriefs. A pilot will go fly for an hour and then debrief that flight for two to six hours and pick through everything that has gone right and wrong to sharpen their mental model and make it more in line with reality. Check your ego at the door. Call everything out. [19:55] This needs to be done better in the civilian world. Spend time with your team and write down lessons learned after every project in some sort of document that everybody can reference. After every flight, Hasard writes down in a little notebook three things he could have done better. Then, the next time he has a similar flight, he reads those notes to prepare. Leaders: are you doing this enough? [22:43] We're all leaders. When it comes down to being a good leader, you need four things: Competence in your job and a level of competence in jobs that report to you, Caring, Conviction in the vision of what you do, and in the boundaries you will not cross, and Clarity for solving problems. With these four characteristics, you can get a team to move quickly in a certain direction. [25:21] Everything is predicated on how well you sleep. You perform better and make better decisions. It's hard for fighter pilots to get enough sleep because they fly at all hours. A noise machine in the bedroom helps. Sleep is an exponential benefit to what you do. It will help every aspect of your life from your relationships to how well you see the world to solve problems. At least eight hours is optimal. [28:25] Self-care, such as nutrition, sleep, hydration, physical therapy, and psychology are being emphasized now in pilot training. The evidence is getting out there. It just needs to be a priority. Generation Z is prepared for it by not smoking. [31:30] Being a fighter pilot is not a one v. one cage match or Top Gun with four aircraft. Pilots work with hundreds of aircraft operating together. They deal with the space domain, the cyberspace domain, people on the ground, and aircraft ISR (intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance). It's a force package of 100-plus assets working to create the best team possible. And the enemy is just as smart. [33:06] Advice for younger people who want to be fighter pilots: You don't need to have perfect vision anymore! You can have Lasik or fly with contact lenses or glasses. If you want to be a fighter pilot, apply! [33:44] Hasard has noticed that in the military, everyone has similar values, along a range. The business world is more of an open ocean and you have to be discerning to figure out where a person is coming from and their intentions, and how well they execute. When you hire someone, they haven't been through OCS or the Academy and pilot training. They don't think like the military. Hiring is a challenge. [36:35] Hasard has a "Never Again story." When he was a lieutenant learning to fly an F-16 he was doing high-aspect BFM with a colonel with 25 years of experience. Hasard wanted to impress the colonel. He pulled up to vertical at 245 knots — six knots too slow! He fell out of control. He was able to get the jet under control at 2,000 feet. He learned small changes in input can make very large changes in output. [42:06] Closing quote: Remember, "Clarity affords focus." — Thomas Leonard Quotable Quotes "There are three important power laws you have to know: Exponential Growth, … Diminishing Return, … and Knees in the Curve." — Hasard "If you can slow down to less than about 250 knots [before ejecting], you drastically increase your chance of survival because speed behaves exponentially." — Hasard "As soon as you put on your helmet, you lose 20 I.Q. points. And what that means is you don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your preparation. … You have to be prepared … in a training environment even more difficult than combat." — Hasard "If I could talk about all the benefits of sleep without saying it was sleep and just saying it was a pill, I think I'd probably be a billionaire. Because everything is predicated on how well you sleep. You perform better … you make better decisions." — Hasard "[Falling in an out-of-control jet] was a big eye-opening story for me that small changes in input can have exponentially large changes in the output." — Hasard Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Hasard Lee Hasard Lee's YouTube channel Hasard X F-35 F-16 High-aspect BFM The Art of Clear Thinking: A Stealth Fighter Pilot's Timeless Rules for Making Tough Decisions (Coming in May 2023) Cessna 152 King Air A-10 F-22 F-15 The Power of Clarity: Unleash the True Potential of Workplace Productivity, Confidence, and Empowerment, by Ann Latham Malcolm Gladwell The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right, by Atul Gawande John Boyd's OODA Loop LASIK OCS

Whitney Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of Disruption Advisors, a talent development company. Whitney is a globally-recognized thought leader. author, keynote speaker, executive coach, consultant, and a popular LinkedIn Learning instructor. In this conversation, Whitney discusses how musicality has lessons for the business world, and the wide applications of the S-Curve. https://bit.ly/TLP-328 Key Takeaways [2:35] At her daughter's prompting during the pandemic, Whitney and her family started watching Korean dramas. The family became obsessed with them. Whitney now studies Korean for two minutes a day on Duolingo. Whitney describes the characteristics of Korean dramas. [5:22] Whitney majored in music, studying classical piano and jazz. Because of her musical background, when she structures a keynote, a book, or a podcast, she looks for musicality and a musical structure to it. Musical structure and musicality inform the work she does. Also, as an experienced accompanist, she knows how to be second, allowing her to be a good interviewer, and as a coach, to listen well. [7:04] Brett Mitchell, the former conductor of the Colorado Symphony, said that music is what happens between the notes. Whitney discusses pauses relating to leadership and cites Clayton Christiansen, saying that partway through his career, Clayton Christiansen started a practice of praying before teaching a class. Once he started that practice, he started to have a significant impact on his students. [8:42] Whitney suggests that before you speak, have a meeting, or a coaching session, you pause and think about the person you're about to speak to, and how to convey to the person that they matter to you, that is an element of leadership. [10:33] Wayne Muller, author of Sabbath, pointed out the pauses in Martin Luther King's exclamation, "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!" [11:41] Gino Wickman, in The EOS Life, recommends entrepreneurs take sabbaticals. One of Jim's clients just took a sabbatical and reported that stepping back and taking a break allowed them to reflect and then grow. [12:20] Whitney has a LinkedIn Learning class, Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders, and a book, Smart Growth. Whitney's view is that we are wired to grow. Virtuous growth is growing in such a way that everyone around you grows as well. She believes that human growth is unbounded. [13:23] Sociologist Everett Rogers applied the S-Curve to the study of how quickly innovation is adopted. Working with Clayton Christiansen, Whitney realized she could apply the S-Curve to individual change and growth. Growth comes in three stages: slow (launch), fast (sweet spot), and slow (master place). Every time you start a new role or a new job, you go through the curve. This is covered in Smart Growth. [14:45] Whitney's LinkedIn course focuses on how to create the conditions where people around you can grow, with the resources they need, and how they can feel connected to what they're doing and the people they're working with. Whitney also talks about building resilience and nurturing people. If you can do all those things, you're creating conditions wherein the people around you can grow. [16:59] Whitney makes the underlying assumption that if you will grow yourself then, by the contagion effect, the people around you will grow. Then, by default, your business will grow. [17:49] You can manage your organization as a portfolio of curves. The people at the curve's launch point will need the most support. They will also have a fresh perspective, opening the door to innovation. You want about 20% of the people in your organization to be new, 60% to be in the sweet spot, and 20% in master, ready for a new challenge. This is a good distribution for innovation. [20:10] De-prioritize the things you do really well that somebody else could do. Whitney gives an example from a client. If you stop doing the things you should delegate to others, you will have time to do the things only you can do, and you get out of the way for them to work on the steep part of the S-Curve. [23:06] Every organization needs to have, as part of their vision, growing human beings and helping them reach their potential. The vision starts with the founders, and as people join the organization, they begin to co-create the vision with the founders. Everyone helps each other grow. In the most fluid, powerful organizations, everyone contributes to the creation of the vision. [26:56] Whitney addresses growth pre-pandemic, in-pandemic, and post-pandemic. A lot of adaptation and resilience have been required. When people are under stress, they go to default stress behaviors. You need to make sure people work together and not against each other. People want to grow but are not always sure how to do it. This goes back to Whitney's course, Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders. [28:39] Whitney asks Jan and Jim for their thoughts on getting people to work together under stress. Jim states that when people are stressed they need time and space to solve their problems. People are pausing to figure out how to work together. People need time and space to get up to game speed. Executives are not paid to be busy. Pausing is a good way to grow by asking yourself tough questions. [31:35] Whitney has an assessment that she administers to clients. It includes seven accelerants of growth. The one that ranks the lowest is frequently "Step back to grow." People are not taking time to pause and reflect. Whitney quotes Tiffany Shlain who asks, "What if we thought of 'rest' as technology because the promise of technology is to make you more productive?" [34:17] Egon Zehnder surveyed 1,000 executives whether they strongly agreed that to transform your organization you need to transform yourself. Before the pandemic, 18% of executives agreed. After the pandemic, 805 of the executives agreed. The only way you have the moral authority to ask people to change is if you, yourself, are changing. The fundamental unit of change is the individual at every level. [37:52] Whitney lists some people that inspire her, and why: Rashika Tolshan, who wrote about the Queen of England passing away, Brené Brown, Musician Jacob Collier, author Richie Norton, and NFL QB Steve Young. Each of them inspired Whitney with their visions of growth. [41:35] When Whitney was making her list of influential people, her default was to go to all men. She had to make sure she included some women. She had to be very mindful and deliberate to determine who is actually influencing her and she wanted a diversity of perspectives. Jim highlights the leadership lesson of intentionality. [42:49] Whitney's audience homework: On the topic of pausing and resting, listen to these two episodes of Whitney's Step Back to Grow podcast: Episode 139 with filmmaker Tiffany Schlain and Episode 180. Don't avoid taking a pause to rest. [43:57] Closing quote: Remember, "It's all to do with the training: you can do a lot if you're properly trained." — Queen Elizabeth II Quotable Quotes "Because of being a musician, I think of things in a musical sort of way. When I'm structuring a keynote; … a book; … a podcast, there's always a sense of, 'Is there a musicality to it; is there a musical structure to it?'" — Whitney "I wrote a piece about the importance of taking a break, that you needed to rest because the ability to rest was going to allow you to recharge so that you could then move forward." — Whitney "For me, growth is our default setting. We're wired to grow." — Whitney "Every time we start something new, we're on a new S-Curve. There are three stages. There's the launch point that feels slow, there's the sweet spot, … where growth is fast, … and … the master place, where growth is … slow." — Whitney "People who are successful are intentional. It doesn't just fall in your lap. … Successful people are intentional people and [a high] level intentionality is something to be admired and something for people listening to this podcast to take away." — Jim Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Whitney Johnson Disruption Advisors Korean Dramas Duolingo Tiffany Shlain on Step Back to Grow, Episode 139 with Whitney Johnson Step Back to Grow, Episode 180 with Whitney Johnson Brett Mitchell Clayton Christiansen Sabbath: Finding Rest, Renewal, and Delight in Our Busy Lives, by Wayne Muller I Have a Dream Gino Wickman The EOS Life: How to Live Your Ideal Entrepreneurial Life Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders, with Whitney Johnson on LinkedIn Learning Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company, by Whitney Johnson Everett Rogers 24/6: The Power of Unplugging One Day a Week, by Tiffany Shlain Egon Zehnder Ruchika Tulshyan Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience, by Brené Brown Jacob Collier Anti-Time Management: Reclaim Your Time and Revolutionize Your Results with the Power of Time Tipping, by Richie Norton Steve Young

Audrey Darley Welch heads up the partner program for Darley Defense, W.S. Darley & Company's military distribution business and its largest division. Her team manages the company's partnerships with key suppliers of tactical and fire-fighting products and services. In this episode, Audrey shares lessons she learned from working in various industries and now at Darley. She tells how she adapts to working in a male-oriented field, how she applies sports metaphors to her team, and what she learned from bad assumptions. https://bit.ly/TLP-327 Key Takeaways [2:09] Audrey originally had intended to become a high school math teacher and volleyball coach. But she didn't realize you had to be a calculus whiz to teach algebra! She decided to go into finance, instead. She is still passionate about sports and coaching. [3:01] Darley, a family-owned business of four generations, has a family employment policy that requires family members to work outside the business for a period before joining Darley. Audrey had not planned to work at Darley. She started a banking career after college. After three years, she considered joining Darley. For a year she went to board meetings and shareholder meetings and researched Darley. [3:53] When Audrey decided she wanted to join Darley, she wrote an application essay. The open position was a dealer development person for Darley's legacy pump division. She got the job and spent a year working in that area but it was not the ideal position for her background in finance and relationship management. [4:28] Audrey was interested in getting exposure to different areas of the business. She found a position in supplier relationship management in the Defense Division. It was a job she was weel-qualified for and she has been working in the supplier relationship function for the last seven years. [5:40] Working at a large bank before coming to Darley allowed Audrey to see how big companies do things, their policies, and their structure. She was able to see what her strengths were at work. The largest thing she learned was the discipline and accountability of being part of a professional organization. [7:03] Audrey feared before joining Darley that she would have to follow her father's leadership style. He is an extrovert and Audrey is introverted. Audrey's advice to the next generation would be to be natural. She also advises the next generation to find out what fresh ideas the business needs to set it up for success, respecting the secret sauce, the family. Darley has had 300% growth in the last five years. [10:01] Audrey doesn't have a problem with being an offspring, the fourth generation, or being a woman in a male-dominated field. She works well with her male cousins and men in the industry. She goes on pheasant hunts, fishing, and to the Wisconsin supper clubs with the men, so being a woman didn't make a difference to her career. Audrey describes a Wisconsin supper club, for those unfamiliar. [12:34] Audrey talks about one's personal responsibility to pursue professional development. Especially in the family business environment, it's all about initiative. She doesn't expect her generation to be nurtured in the business. Each person needs to pave their own way. Audrey recommends a career map with a "From-To" statement and figuring out what kind of experiences you need to get there. [15:26] Does Audrey want to be President? At Darley, there is no job description for President; currently, the CEO, President, and Chairman are all the same person. So Audrey went ahead and developed a job description for the President as she sees it and as she thinks she would do well in that role, and where they can split off CEO responsibilities. She finds those types of exercises to be very refreshing. [17:25] Soon, the fourth generation will get together to talk about all the positions and get clarity on succession planning. Everybody at Darley has worn a lot of different hats, and it's time to separate their roles, especially of the senior leadership team. [18:51] In a mid-level role like Audrey's, leadership is tough. She has five direct reports and will soon have six. The company is trying to scale, with top-level goals, and every team is checking that their goals align with the company goals, but managers may not realize they do not align with cross-functional team goals. Audrey shares a misstep she had made with goals that impacted the Sales Team's goals. [22:11] Audrey presented to senior management in a virtual meeting the initiative she had developed. When she heard "crickets," she knew something was wrong. She started getting pushback from sales and business development. Her incorrect assumptions had damaged her trust level across departments. Sales reps started having friction with account managers. Get feedback! Silence is not compliance! [24:46] Audrey ties a lot of her leadership to sports and the volleyball she played in school. She was the setter in volleyball, setting her teammates up for success. The setter is usually named the captain of the team because they're running the plays. At work, she considers herself the captain of her team, and the coach. Audrey is concerned about perfecting the fundamentals. [25:46] Audrey's volleyball coach had her do 1,000 repetitions against the wall before coming out for a game to start setting people up in the warm-up. She uses repetition at Darley, focusing on strategies and core competencies. [27:30] Sports metaphors may not work for everybody. Audrey says something that applies to almost all sports is never to sacrifice form for speed. That's how you get injured. Slow down to speed up. [28:45] Government contract bids need to be submitted within 72 hours. Audrey says that cutting corners on supplier due diligence can cause problems. Darley's core value is integrity, and speed is not integrity. Never bypass your core values. [31:54] Audrey tells how she achieves work-life balance. She has her priorities straight. Even so, when she chooses personal over business or business over personal, sometimes there is some guilt felt. Her husband helps. Figure out work patterns with your partner or whoever is helping you with all this and get into a routine. [34:38] Audrey does not think remote work will go away. Audrey prefers hybrid to all-remote. About 60% of companies are offering remote work. It's not a fad. Audrey values in-person collaboration. She values in-person collaboration time in the office. That can be managed in two-to-three days. Remote doesn't work for every position. Audrey's quality of life has drastically improved through hybrid work. [37:08] Audrey comments on what veterans can do to have a successful transition to business life. Veterans at Darley are very aligned with and connected to the mission, which catapults their careers forward. The biggest challenge is understanding the business world. You need to be flexible and wear different hats. You may be uncomfortable. Getting an MBA before coming to Darley helps a lot. [40:21] Three points that will help anyone transitioning into the business world: 1. Be curious, 2. Be adaptable, and 3. Figure out ways to be confident without knowing everything about everything. [41:04] Audrey's closing thought for listeners: Build your sounding board early. Besides joining forums, having mentors, and tapping the knowledge of the board of directors, it is most important to participate in a peer group to help you get where you want to go. [42:37] Closing quote: Remember, "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that is your own self." —Aldous Huxley Quotable Quotes "I found out that I'm very detail-oriented and I do like relationship management on the customer side." — Audrey "Are we setting up the future of the business for success with the way that we have it? Right now, we've had 300% growth over the last five years." — Audrey "When it comes to building trust and relationships, I'm out there doing the pheasant hunts, and the fishing, and the beer-drinking, and the supper clubs in Wisconsin up near our plant, and all that. So I don't think [being a woman] really did play a role." — Audrey "I ran through, 'This is what it means for the division, this is what it means for sales.' I was trying to highlight all the good things that would come from an initiative like this. … It was like 'crickets.' … Sometimes not hearing anything at all can be a message." — Audrey "[Sports] is where it all started. And I still do, I tie a lot of it back to sports, or even just fitness, in general. I was a setter in volleyball, very much the quarterback or the point guard equivalent. You're setting people up for success." — Audrey "You won't hear me say I don't value that in-person collaboration time." — Audrey "We're a distributor and we sell a lot of different types of products, we call on a lot of different types of customers. … They may not feel as comfortable. … Everybody's bought into the importance of the equipment we sell." — Audrey Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Audrey Darley Welch Pareto Principle

Dr. Marianne Lewis is renowned for her research on the paradoxes of leadership and is coauthor, with Wendy Smith, of Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Greatest Problems. The conversation covers how we can learn to think about paradoxes, and why tension is necessary for balance - and to achieve innovation. https://bit.ly/TLP-326 Key Takeaways [2:14] Marianne grew up with a father in academia. She was determined not to be a professor in academia. In her rebellion, she came to the Midwest to find her space. And she loves Cincinnati and is absolutely in academia, studying leaders. [3:51] Marianne addresses why "both/and" thinking is essential for emotional balance and rational behavior. [5:25] Marianne refers to James March's teachings about the complexity and messiness of the world we live in and bounded rationality, meaning there's just so much one can take in. We do what we need to do to get by in a busy, complicated, messy world that pushes us toward looking at our tensions and dilemmas as "either/or" trade-offs. [7:08] A few years ago, Marianne and her team built a psychological "instrument" they call a paradox mindset. They've studied thousands of people in multiple languages. From their observations, it appears that the way we think is learned. Your ability to manage tensions appears to do with how often you deal with tensions and how much you try to embrace and work through them. More study is to come. [9:45] Paradox thinking and systems thinking are related. A "both/and" thinker tends to think more in systems, looking for interactions and feedback loops. Systems thinking involves looking at complexity in context and in new ways. "Both/and" thinking adds to looking for the value in tensions as you work through the complexity to find more creative and more lasting solutions to your problems. [11:18] There are tensions between things and between systems, but the important tensions are between individuals. Marianne has worked in this field for 25 years, 20 of them with Wendy. They found three factors that intensify the experience of tensions: Change. Today is becoming tomorrow faster. Scarcity. As soon as you feel that you're slicing the pie thinner, you feel tension. Plurality. A multiplicity of stakeholders with pressures that differ. [12:13] We're in the perfect storm of change, scarcity, and plurality. We are living in tensions in our lives, organizations, and society. The tensions are interwoven across levels and facets. [13:48] Vicious cycles reinforce errors in our thinking. Marianne talks about three vicious cycles: Going down the rabbit hole, or deep ruts of behavior. Overcorrecting in the opposite direction. Polarization. Shouting, diminishing each other, and doing anything but listening. [15:47] Get out of the trench by asking, "What are they thinking? What are they seeing? Can we learn?" [16:43] Virtuous cycles are reinforcing tendencies that help us navigate tensions. Marianne sees two patterns of virtuous cycles. One is Creative Integration, taking the best of two extremes, such as radical innovation and efficiency, and putting them together creatively. Marianne compares this to a mule, stronger than a horse and smarter than a donkey. Creative integration is rare. [18:13] The second pattern of virtuous cycles, Dynamic Balancing, is more common. Marianne compares this to tightrope walking; looking to the horizon while dealing with the present tensions. Don't panic in tense moments; keep moving forward. You'll learn as you do it. [21:01] Help people understand why embracing tensions and creative friction fosters opportunities for creativity, learning, and older innovations, moving forward. Marianne tells of Paul Polman when he was CEO of Unilever, who said Unilever would double its profits by reducing its environmental footprint. On every issue he discussed, he wanted to have tension on the team. He was provocative and purposeful. [24:22] "Either/or" and "both/and" thinking are both about decision-making. Uncertainty is potentially paralyzing for "either/or" thinkers. You don't know what the right solution is and the right solution tomorrow may be different. But the point is to keep making decisions, having the confidence and the humility to know you can move forward, whatever the results are. Keep in mind your higher purpose. [26:06] The boundary around the tensions is what holds the elements together. Marianne is seeing an existential crisis in academia and business that strikes her as a lack of meaning. We need to be pushing harder on finding that boundary. [26:43] Is work a transaction of time for money, or does it have meaning and legacy? You serve other people and make their lives better. Leaders need to create an environment where people want to come and bring their best. If a company has a bunch of people in transaction mode, Jan puts it on the leaders. Marianne says it's key for that leader to tap into why they are there. Make the transactions matter. [29:02] Marianne addresses the role of leaders to help us out of the malaise in our society, even in this wonderful world. First, ask why we feel that malaise. Richard Farson wrote of the paradox of rising expectations. At the lowest state, there's no hope. As people realize the potential, as hope grows, the bar raises and people see what could be! The frustrations and protests rise. [30:20] The frustration should be encouraging to leaders. If your people are silent, either they don't care or they are so far below the water that they don't have time or energy to complain. The complaining is because people see that we could be ever better. The world is so polarized because we have very different views of how we get there. You get turf warfare between different sides with different ideas. [31:09] If we could agree that we all want a better world. There are lots of paths to get there. How do we listen and learn from each other? We need leaders, ourselves included, to make sure that raised bar says it's about wanting a better world. It's not about the how, it's about what we want. Let's have good debates and get the friction in the room and think about how we get there. [31:54] Sam Walker, author of The Captain Class, told about a study he did of the most successful sports teams in history. They had captains with unique characteristics that helped build the teams. They dealt with task conflicts and process conflicts but avoided personal conflicts at all costs. When people focus on the task or process, it is productive, not a personal attack. [33:20] Marianne discusses two sides of conflict: the destructive and the empowering. The difference is your focus: the person, feeling the emotion, or the task, the higher purpose, what you want to get done. When you focus on the person, things escalate in a way that is not productive. Some of us are going to have to model the way with different leadership styles. [34:31] Marianne is grateful every day to have a colleague like Wendy Smith. One of the reasons their partnership has been so productive is that they are really different. They have all sorts of differences but they found a lot of similarities. They want a better world, they believe in learning and innovation. While they were writing their book, they found themselves in many late-night deep discussions on challenges. [38:37] Marianne's challenge to listeners: Start paying more attention to the questions you are asking. Are you asking "either/or" questions? Those questions immediately limit your options. Start asking more "both/and" questions, such as, "How do we make this world more sustainable and more productive?" [39:35] Closing quote: Remember, "How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress!" — Niels Bohr Quotable Quotes "We tend to define things by what they're not. We think in terms of contrast. … You're either 'A' or 'Not-A.' So we think in terms of opposites, even if those opposites aren't actually direct contradictions. … The way we think … influences the way we feel." — Marianne "We're wired to have these heuristic shortcuts, these cognitive biases. … What we feel is completely logical but it might not be." — Jim "People who have a greater paradox mindset, especially when they're working or living in a world of tensions, … are more productive, more creative, and happier; more satisfied. … They see tensions as opportunities." — Marianne "We use the analogy of a mule, which is stronger than a horse and smarter than a donkey." — Marianne "I think about friction in two ways: 1. It can produce drag, or 2. It can produce traction." — Jan "One way to think about how you hold together your tensions is [to ask] 'What do you want this to be in the broader world?'" — Marianne "I'm sensing an existential crisis. I see it, whether in academia or business, and that strikes me as a sense of lack of meaning. We need to be pushing harder on 'What is that boundary?'" — Marianne "For all the rising expectations going on around us and the frustration, the lack of listening and compassion is painful to me." — Marianne "We wanted to write this book; we did not want this to be a purely business book. These same patterns and tools work at the individual level as a mother, as a friend, and we have seen powerful examples working at the societal level. " — Marianne "I don't want you to think what I think but I'd love us to be aligned with what we want in the end goal." — Marianne Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Marianne Lewis, Ph.D. Carl H. Lindner College of Business at the University of Cincinnati Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Greatest Problems HBR Press James March Systems Thinking Donnella Meadows Peter Senge Paul Polman Unilever Richard Farson Management of the Absurd: Paradoxes in Leadership, by Richard Farson The Captain Class: The Hidden Force That Creates the World's Greatest Teams, by Sam Walker

Dr. Ciela Hartanov runs Humcollective, a boutique strategy and innovation firm that helps companies, executives, and teams make sense of the forces shaping our future and prepare strategically. In this episode, Ciela discusses the shift that will be needed to turn teaching leadership skills into teaching a leadership mindset. She discusses how and why sensitivity (not emotionalism) is needed more than ever at work. Listen in for an impressive view of the future of work and how that will shape our communities. https://bit.ly/TLP-325 Key Takeaways [1:57] Ciela has a passion for the human experience inside of work. She believes it is important to put the human at the center of work. Ciela grew up with a father who was very interested in people and she traveled a lot with him. [3:29] The idea of work as a transaction comes from the Industrial Revolution and the assembly line. You work these hours, produce these widgets, and you get paid. Before the Industrial Revolution, you worked for yourself to build a life and had jobs inside the community, such as baker and candlestick maker, to build the community together. [5:37] Society is trying to break the transaction mindset. Because of the pandemic, there has been a reckoning and reconsideration of the employee/employer contract. Everyone's responsible and we are making agreements together about what that contract is. [6:52] Ciela says we've been sold the idea that purpose is an individual pursuit. We are social beings. Ciela has learned through sociology that we are ourselves because we are reflected through other people. An individual's purpose and meaning are within the context of society. Ciela is working to put us back within the context of our society. We don't operate as solo individuals. [8:01] Before the pandemic, Ciela was worried that loneliness was an epidemic. People were using work to relieve their loneliness. Employers encouraged employees to be more connected to their organization and to have a "best friend" at work. This idea was disrupted by remote work. Individuals need to have their social needs met outside the organization. It's not enough to just be on your own. [10:05] Ciela doesn't talk about transformation. She sees what is happening as a renewal of what it means to be alive as a human being. This is a new conversation in society. The Great Resignation is a philosophical conversation about what it means to be a human being and what it means to work. [11:54] Advances are happening that will impact human beings. But the human condition will always be evergreen. We are still discovering things about the human condition. Those things aren't new, we just didn't know them yet. The things that are new are technological advances and tools, like AI. [12:42] Ciela is studying Emergence and Emergent theory. It is a fundamental human condition that we don't like uncertainty. We will be experiencing more and more uncertainty. Ciela helps organizations figure out how to tie the thread between the growing uncertainty and our dislike of it. [15:12] People will learn that adapting to change is an essential skill. Companies can teach their employees how to adapt to new requirements of a job. It is essential to have emotional resilience for the triggers that come with change. When Ciela was at Google, they spent years teaching people how to meditate. Meditation is a tool to regulate emotion inside a complex and challenging environment. [17:15] Humans are naturally curious and interested. We have it as children. The industrial era has stripped that out of us because it's not efficient. You can't measure creativity in the same way as productivity. Celia is writing a book. In her book, she talks about moving from the idea of knowledge work to perceptual work. Perceptual work involves perceiving what is happening around us. [19:07] After perceiving comes interpreting. This is a human skill, not a machine skill. When we gain insight, our creative mind sees it and considers the way forward to make a move. In uncertainty, making a move is an experiment. This requires rethinking organizational practices and patterns. There's not a straight path from Point A to Point B anymore. [21:50] Ciela was on a team at Google that studied the future of leadership. She tells of the insight that led her to organize the study team. She held the position that we need to examine mindsets before we teach leadership skills. It's like our operating system. If you don't have the right operating system for the context, you're never going to be able to demonstrate the right behavior. [25:06] The team developed six mindsets that matter. Ciela shares three of them: 1.) I must know myself and get over myself to be in the service of other people., 2.) Believe that being in uncertain terrain is progress and progress needs tension., 3.) Know that power is responsibility, and take that seriously when you sit in a leadership seat. [27:30] Teaching leadership skills before teaching mindset worked in a time of more certainty. We are in a time of uncertainty that requires a shift, a different way of working with leadership. Now we need to teach mindsets. [28:11] To be an employer of choice, you could offer your employees the ability to gain transferable skills to be able to have a lattice career. Today's younger employees have more clarity about their values, purpose, and mindset. Ciela would like employers to bolster that and help them gain the skills that are not being taught in school. Organizations have to train skills that are lacking in the talent pool. [29:36] Ciela is writing a book, Reclaiming Sensitivity, due out in 2023. We generally misunderstand what sensitivity is. Sensitivity is the ability to perceive. Let's reclaim our innate human ability to perceive, both through our emotional attunement and our ability to plan and get curious — the original definition of sensitivity in its widest capacity. One chapter is devoted to making sense of uncertain terrain. [34:36] Jan asks if sensitivity will become the rule in Fortune 500 companies. Ciela replies "Yes, and," because we haven't evolved to the new era of work. There is a place for execution, and that's when you are not in a complex domain. But the level of complexity will start pushing further into the organization and we need to shift our mindset to be ready. We're not there yet. [38:16] Growing up, Ciela traveled the world with her father. She shares how travel shaped her views on perceiving. Her father taught her to travel like a local. She learned to go inside other peoples' experiences, versus being on the periphery. Someone in the gig economy must be first understood from an anthropological view before you can have insight and work with them. [41:07] Ciela talks about a study she did at Google about what makes someone able to shift, adjust and be a transformative leader. She found two things: 1.) They were able to find their stable ground — such as a daily workout, and 2.) They were incredibly good at perspective-taking and perceiving. They could transform because they could perceive but also had stable ground from which to move. [42:14] Ciela's closing thought: Leaders feel tired and burnt out. They "don't have time for innovation; it's too hard!" Ciela acknowledges there's a real tension around the pressures of being a leader right now. Don't let that blindside you from focusing on what matters, which is paving a path for the future. Open your eyes and start perceiving and thinking about the innovative way out of the uncertainty. [43:43] Closing quote: Remember, "Each person does see the world in a different way. There is not a single, unifying, objective truth. We're all limited by our perspective." — Siri Hustvedt Quotable Quotes "Once people came off of the farms and working for themselves to build a life, and moved into the assembly line and the factory, then it was an exchange. You work these hours, you work on this timeline, you produce this number of widgets; … and then you get money." — Ciela "If you look before the Industrial Revolution, a lot of what we understood about work was also related to community. So, we each had a job inside the community to build the community together." — Ciela "We had the baker, we had the candlestick maker; we had all the different functions, but the idea inside those functions was that you were building a society and a community together." — Ciela "We don't operate as solo individuals. Nothing gets done unless there's a collective effort and a collective meaning." — Ciela "Fresh perspectives are required to thrive in an ever-changing context." — Ciela "We are naturally wired to be curious and interested. We have this innate interest as human beings." — Ciela "I actually think we need a fundamental restructuring so that that new perspective, that fresh insight, can be part of the strategy process; they can be part of the systems and so that it gets encouraged and then rewarded." — Ciela "Unless you believe that tension is a good thing and is valuable, you're never going to be able to work with it." — Ciela "[Skills] are expiring so quickly and if you want to be an employer of choice you do have to offer the ability for people to gain skills — transferable skills — and be able to shift and to have more of a lattice career versus a ladder career." — Ciela "It's not a waste of time to bring people into a sense-making exercise because that is how you make progress. Because progress needs tension. And that is a whole different way of understanding how you interact and deal with a complex domain." — Ciela "At the center of all of work are human beings and the experience that we are having." — Ciela Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Ciela Hartanov, PsyD Humcollective Project Aristotle Reclaiming Sensitivity (scheduled to be published in 2023) Stephen Drotter Jack Welch

Jim and Jan discuss the latest crucible expeditions to hopefully inspire and uplift you! Jan has led 21 crucible expeditions to date, and through the diversity of executives and military veterans, they keep providing new insights. Participants come by invitation (or application), and are selected for selflessness, an adventurous spirit, and possessing heroic aspirations to make a difference in the lives of others. Jan's process is to design the experience, select the participants, get them together, and step back to let them learn and grow as a team, as the magic happens. Participants learn they have more in common than they have differences and strong bonds are formed. Listen in to learn how some of these lessons can apply to your organization. https://bit.ly/TLP-324 Key Takeaways [2:03] In this episode, Jan and Jim recap some learnings from two recent back-to-back crucible expeditions that Jan completed. A crucible expedition with Jan is a four-day, three-night wilderness expedition with executives who need a digital detox coupled with military veterans who are transitioning to the business world. The veterans are mostly from the Special Operations community. [3:02] Participants go rock-climbing and backpacking in the middle of nowhere. Really great people get together for some great conversations. Jan selects the executives and veterans on three criteria: they are people who are trying to be as selfless as possible for the greater good, are adventurous, and possess heroic aspirations to try and make the world a better place, in things beyond power and money. [3:57] By selecting those criteria, they get a bunch of strangers coming together as a team very quickly. Based on work Jan has done with surveys by PAIRIN, he believes that when people are out there with strangers, unlike with work colleagues, they have nothing to prove, protect, or promote. [4:24] Jim has been on the Patagonia and Moab crucibles and he attests that they are incredible experiences that move you in ways you would never expect. Jan has done 21 crucible expeditions so far. [5:34] Jan has found that his talent lies not in charismatic leadership but in designing the environment and culture for the team, stepping back, staying out of the way, and letting the magic happen. Jan shares his critique of an expedition Jim was on a few years ago. He says he should have stepped away more and guided things and discussions through questions. [7:30] Jan shares a crucible learning for your work. There is one person in charge, and the second person is the accountability partner. If the leader takes a wrong turn, the accountability partner lets them make the mistake and learn from it. We don't grow and develop without making and correcting mistakes. Let your people at work learn and develop from their mistakes. [10:09] On the crucibles, you've got executives that are making the time and space for their improvement. Jan just spoke to someone who loved the outdoor aspect of the crucible and feels like she needs more time off. Jan tells executives to find the sweet spot between sitting on the hill, figuring out what their team needs, and getting with the team, working with them, and coaching them, first-hand. [11:44] Executive coaches work to try to get people to move from being "here," doing "these things," to being "there," doing "those things." It takes self-discipline, sacrifice, focus, delegation, and trust to get there. That's where accountability partners come in, plus taking time to reflect. Jan tells about the three-hour solo challenge of silent alone-time, thinking for three hours, and reporting on it later. [13:30] The bedrock of the crucible is that people relate to each other as humans, that they're vulnerable. People are dealing with a lot on the homefront and the things they are struggling with come up in their first meeting. Often it is family stuff. The idea that it's OK not to be OK comes through. At work, senior leaders have to be strong and act in a certain way to get performance from other people. [14:49] On a crucible, people let their guard down. They might cry around the campfire or climbing a mountain, even though they never cry. In some ways, their crying and vulnerability bring the team together. It's a gift to show your real emotions. It's not a gift stoic people share at work. And everybody on the crucible is equal. [16:25] Jim summarizes that vulnerability is the resounding theme of a crucible. You are put in a situation where you are physically vulnerable. In the evening discussions, people became more mentally and emotionally vulnerable. Jan believes that whiskey helps. He has seen it. Jim is still close to people from both of his crucible trips in a different way than his golfing buddies. [18:09] When you go out there as a business executive, having little to no experience with veterans, or the elite operators who go on these expeditions, you might think you have nothing in common with them. You come away with respect that goes both ways. You see the military in a different light. The folks in the military now see civilians in a different light. [18:56] Only one percent of the population in America has anything to do with the military. It has become a family business. Most of those families are from the South. The military is very insular. You're around people that think, act, and talk like you. Your world is filled with military acronyms. The military spends money. You're not in the generate revenue, create demand business. [20:03] A lot of the leadership and people challenges are very similar between the military and business. In the past two years, twice, a special operations commando who has carried a flag under his body armor on multiple missions decided to give that flag to executive participants from the crucible — they were flags that could have draped a body if the operator had not survived a mission. [21:37] A crucible changes people's lives. After the Patagonia crucible, Jim took a fork in the road that he might not have taken before the crucible. Jim says when you spend the time and get to know other people, you're much more similar than you think. That kind of experience is something to keep in mind when you look at our divisive society. Take the time to listen to people and gain their perspectives. [22:51] On one trip, sitting around the fire at the end, a leader said it was interesting that "none of us talked about politics or religion. I'm guessing, politically, we go from left to right and in-between. Look how great we got along. This is what Americans should be about." It was a powerful moment. Each participant was only in the category of human with heroic aspirations beyond power and money. [24:24] The crucible cannot scale. It cannot be done with big groups in wilderness areas and some people couldn't or wouldn't do it. So, Jan is writing a book about it with a co-author who is a past crucible participant and military veteran. [25:01] There was little diversity in the first expeditions. Jan credits Sheryl Tullis with helping him make the teams intentionally diverse and representative of the workforce. Jan believes that the men bring out the best in the women participants and vice versa. Jan marvels at the self-confidence of some of the recent diverse participants. They know who they are and what they bring to the table. [27:52] One reason a recent expedition was so good was that there was diversity of age, gender, geography, and company size. The veterans were thoughtful, deliberate, cerebral people, deeply curious about the business world they were going into. These trips are about what happens in the one-on-one discussions as you're walking down the trail, and in the evening discussions around the fire. [29:35] U.S. Navy SEAL Master Chief Stephen Drum has been on the podcast. He is writing a book and Jim is reading the preliminary manuscript for him. Stephen writes that when SEALS wash out, it is never about physical fitness. It's always about lacking strength of character, conviction, or values. Some of the strongest people on a crucible are strongest in character. [31:17] Jan mentions Don Yaeger, a Sports Illustrated writer and author of many books about great athletes. Don says all great athletes hate to lose more than they like to win. The reason Jan became a Green Beret is that he did not quit. He was 18 years old. More than he wanted to win, he did not want to fail. [32:32] In the business world, at some point things are going to be hard. There's always something nagging at you that says, "Quit." If what you are doing is aligned with your values, then you won't quit. If it's not aligned with your values, it doesn't serve you. [33:33] Steve Drotter, a previous guest of the podcast with old-school values, said, "A career is made from having hard jobs that suck and bosses that beat you up. That makes a career!" Today, it seems the job caters to the employee. There is a supply-and-demand issue. The workplace is not as tough as it used to be. [34:50] Jan is hearing from the Army and the Marines that young people entering the services have no outdoor experience; no woodcraft or fieldcraft. Jan wonders what's happening in the business world where people come in without knowing certain things! Jim observes that their writing is atrocious. But now we don't write long business reports, we write Powerpoints. Expectations have changed. [36:54] Job conditions wax and wane, and we may go back to a more tough work environment in a few years, where employers have the upper hand, instead of the employees. These are the leadership challenges we have. [37:38] Jan's last words: The crucibles are a passion and a privilege. The only way you're going to change your narrative is to step out of your comfort zone. Whether you go on a crucible or do something else, Jan and Jim encourage you to think about the things where you find purpose and meaning, where you can make a contribution to the greater good, and be bold and make things happen. [39:14] Closing quote: "Twice and thrice over, as they say, good is it to repeat and review what is good." — Plato. Quotable Quotes "We select the executives and the veterans based on three criteria: We're looking for people that are trying to be as selfless as possible, … We look for people that are adventurous, … and … people who possess heroic aspirations, trying to make the world a better place." — Jan "Most of the time I come back from a trip and I beat myself up. … I evaluate my own leadership, and participation performance, and think, 'Woulda, coulda, shoulda.' I do think one thing I've gotten better at is doing less." — Jan "What I have found, at least for me, is my talent isn't necessarily at being the charismatic leader; it's really being a pretty darn good designer. By that I mean if I design the environment, the culture, for the team, and I step back and stay out of the way, magic happens." — Jan "I will say, even at my advanced age, I'm still a work in progress." — Jan "The lesson won't be learned the same if you go, 'Wait, wait, I can fix this!'. I talked to somebody today that said, 'I do way too many Powerpoints. I should be delegating those and I do way too many because it's just easier and faster for me to do it.'" — Jan "Delegation is usually at the top three of things that people can work on to improve. … People never have the time to delegate. They never have the time and space to do it right or to think they even have the opportunity to do it. And it just is a self-fulfilling prophecy." — Jim "What we're very intentional about, and what always ends up being the big takeaway, is you've got to slow down to speed up. Especially for executives, you've got to figure out the sweet spot between going and sitting on the hill and figuring things out" — Jan "One of the things that we try to do on every crucible is give people three hours. We call it the solo challenge. In some ways, it's the hardest thing people do is go be by themselves, doing nothing for three hours except thinking." — Jan "Out there, people just let their guard down. People sometimes will cry around the campfire. Sometimes they'll cry going up the mountain and they'll say, 'I never cry. I — never — cry.' Did anybody care that you cried? No. … Crying and vulnerability brought the team together." — Jan "You can really build some warm and strong relationships with people you might think are so different from you that you could never, ever have anything in common with them." — Jim Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC PAIRIN U.S. Army Special Operations Sheryl Tullis Stephen Drum U.S. Navy Warrior Toughness Sports Illustrated Don Yaeger U.S. Army Special Forces — Green Beret Stephen Drotter Jan Rutherford, TEDx Corporate Competitor Podcast, with Don Yaeger

Joe McCormack is the author of "BRIEF: Make a Bigger Impact by Saying Less," and "Noise: Living and Leading When Nobody Can Focus." He founded the Brief Lab in 2013 after years dedicated to developing and delivering a unique curriculum for US Army Special Operations. He actively counsels military leaders and senior executives on effective, efficient communication, and produces the podcast, "Just Saying." In this conversation, he shares the keys to thinking clearly to get to the root cause of a problem and explain the way forward, simply, concisely, and effectively. https://bit.ly/TLP-323 Key Takeaways [2:45] Joe is the sixth of nine children in his Irish Catholic family. His early career includes a period of aerospace marketing in the aviation field before he started a marketing agency. [4:28] Joe's executive message about communication is "Less is more." You don't need to say much but what you say needs to count. Leaders tend to overwhelm people with information. Be more careful and calculating to be concise. You want to say more but people can't hear it. [6:16] Joe explains why people say too much; a lack of time to prepare, the fear of not giving enough information, the fear of looking stupid, and the fear of failing to handle every contingency. It's never just one of these things; it's all of them. [6:45] People need to consider, "What does my audience need?" They don't need six paragraphs. They're craving brevity. They want two. Give the audience what they want: two well-written paragraphs. More paragraphs will dilute the message and diminish your impact. [7:54] When Joe wrote Brief he considered what was the most essential thing to say in the shortest time given. But don't be too brief. Say what is necessary. When you learn the skills, you can use brevity consistently. There's a payoff for people that have the skillset. [10:30] Joe asks people three questions about executive summaries: "Have you ever heard the term 'executive summary'?" "Have you ever had a developer deliver one?" "Has anybody ever taught you how to build one?" People's answers are normally, Yes, Yes, and No. If they say Yes to the third, Joe asks them how to build one. They don't get it right. [11:33] Three questions to answer that will make a great executive summary: "What are you talking about?" "Why are we talking about this right now?" "So what now; what next?" [13:26] Joe teaches people the habit of briefly summarizing their message. It's different than just knowing it. It's a habitual way of thinking, speaking, and stopping from talking. [15:09] Fortune 500 corporations and Special Operations are alike in some ways. They both have high standards and expectations and they need to deliver, either for ROI or mission success. In the military, there is a lot of training. Corporations are starting to adopt more training. Since COVID-19 businesses are looking to attract talent. Communication and collaboration are how businesses work. [16:59] Collaboration works in moderation. Microsoft came out with a recent study that shows what people want most from their workplace is autonomy. They want to be left alone to think, and then when they collaborate, it's better. If you don't give people time to think about a problem, they come up with an answer on the fly. Deep problems don't get solved on the fly, but only after thinking and then talking. [22:18] When planning a meeting, take 10 minutes of quiet. Then sit down and create an agenda of what you want to talk about; think about it, write it, and edit it. Then send it and follow it. It works. [23:09] There's a time for collaboration, talking, and doing, and there's a time for thinking. You have to figure out in your role, and what that time allotment is. Once you get that, you're not doing too much or too little, you're doing your job. Joe heard of a CEO who said, "I don't think at work; I'm in meetings all the time." The CEO needs time to think at work. [25:34] As leaders, you need to make a quiet appointment with yourselves for a set amount of time every day. During the appointment, write down things that you need to be thinking about; "How do I get feedback from my employees?" or "What's wrong with my current work situation?" Make the appointment and don't miss it. [28:42] Joe's 15-minute podcast, Just Saying, comes from the classes he teaches to Special Operations teams about concise communications that are effective. [30:15] Joe's book, Noise, is about the correlation between clear thinking and lowering noise levels. If you don't manage the noise, your thoughts are scattered. If your thoughts are scattered, your speech is scattered. Ineffective leaders are scattered because they haven't thought about what they are doing and why they are doing it. They start by talking. Clear thinking leads to concise communication. [31:56] When addressing a problem, ask yourself how much you think about it and how well you think about it. Do you dedicate enough time to thinking about your business? Are you constantly getting distracted in your thinking time? If you do 20 minutes of quiet every day, your thinking will be better. You won't excel at it at first, but make it a daily habit and you will get better at it and get focused. [34:49] Tips from Brief: You need Awareness: It's important to be clear and concise. Discipline: Talk and stop talking when needed. Decisiveness: Know when to act and then act. Jim calls these traits a virtuous circle and compares them to the skills of a running back in a football game. [39:37] People have different ways of thinking. Some people need to think about stuff more and some people are quick to answer. There are strengths and weaknesses to both types of people. Make sure the people around you know your processing style. [41:15] Joe shares a success story. A client was able to frame and reframe what he was doing, why he was doing it, what the value was to the organization, how he was doing it, and how he was measuring the impact in a presentation to the board. They didn't cut a dime from his budget. If you can't state your work in those clear terms, people will default to thinking it's not that important, and you will get cut. [44:05] Joe tells of a military client. The skill of being clear, concise, easy to understand, and easy to follow is valuable. In the middle of a briefing, a general asked Joe's client, who was presenting, "Where did you learn to brief like that?" If everyone else is terrible at it and you're good at it, all of a sudden, you're the tallest person in the room. It takes time to prepare for that. [46:21] When Joe presents to a group he focuses on the audience and how they are alike. The common denominator is they all want the shorter version! They may want to know more but they all crave a clear and concise answer. He provides a clear and concise answer. If they want more, he provides a clear and longer answer. Then, if they want more, he provides the clearest and longest explanation. [48:06] Jan and Jim spend a lot of time helping people to focus. A previous guest of the podcast, Brian Caulfield told them "Sell the problem, not the solution." No one has time and everyone is selling a solution. Joe's Brief method is a recipe for managing time and figuring out the root cause of a problem. [49:25] Joe's challenge: Take time and quiet to think about it. Schedule it. Use quiet to your advantage, however much you need. Then talk. Think before you speak. And then do something. Those are separate things. You think about it quietly. You lower the noise. You start to get a root cause. Then you can say the most important thing (not the things). Then watch people say, "I got it! Now I know what to do." [52:13] Closing quote: "Brevity is the soul of wit." — William Shakespeare. Quotable Quotes "To be an elite communicator is to embrace a different standard, which is 'Less is more. I don't need to say so much but what I say needs to count.'" "It's hard because you want to say more but people can't hear it." "There's a famous quote, which is, 'I would have written you a shorter letter if I had more time." "I wrote a 220-page book on brevity. That almost made me insane. Because you start to think about, what really is the most essential thing to say in the shortest amount of time given? That really takes some thought." "If you're pitching an investor, that investor has this aperture or window of interest and what you say needs to sit inside that window. And that takes a lot of consideration. What does that person care about? What's the most important thing? Why am I doing this?" "What I teach people is the habit of doing [a summary]. It's different from just knowing it." "There's quality collaboration and then there's terrible collaboration. [In a meeting] the collaboration is poor. They talk at each other, they don't prepare, it's disorganized, it's scattered, and people don't listen." "You ask people when do you prepare for meetings and how do you prepare for meetings and often the answer is, 'I can't because I'm in a meeting. I'm constantly collaborating, leaving me no time to prepare for the next meeting.'" "If you don't give people a chance to think about it, they're coming up with the answer on the fly. Deep problems don't get solved on the fly. They get solved when you actually have to slow down and think about it. And then you say something." "Great leaders have the humility to say 'I'm going to think about it. I'm going to have others think about it. I'm going to come up with a solution and then I'm going to explain it in the simplest terms possible and hope it works!'" Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Joe McCormack Brief: Make a Bigger Impact by Saying Less Noise: Living and Leading When Nobody Can Focus The BRIEF Lab U.S. Army Special Operations Just Saying podcast Michael Dowling, Northwell Health® Steve Justice Skunk Works Brian Caulfield Corporate Competitor Podcast, with Don Yaeger