Spill The Ink

With so many law firms vying for attention in today’s hyper-competitive market, it can be hard to stand out among the crowd. Answering Legal, a company providing 24/7 answering services for law firms, has found success using partnership and video marketing strategies to amplify its reach and connect with its audiences.  In this episode of Spill the Ink, Michelle Calcote King sits down with Nick Werker, Answering Legal’s marketing director. They talk about how Answering Legal joins forces with other businesses in the legal industry to create marketing campaigns that cater to the diverse needs of their shared audiences. They also discuss Answering Legal’s “Lawyer’s Guide to 2023,” which, for the first time, featured a collection of short video clips in addition to written content. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn What partnership marketing is How collaborating with industry-adjacent companies can result in more effective marketing campaigns How video has changed the legal marketing landscape How Answering Legal's 2023 Lawyer's Guide combines written and video content to deliver more value to lawyers About our featured guest Nick Werker is the marketing director at Answering Legal, leveraging nearly a decade of marketing experience and adeptness for customer-centric messaging to progress the company’s strategic campaigns. He’s also the host of Answering Legal’s Everything Except the Law podcast, where he interviews legal experts about legal marketing, public relations, legal tech, wellness and more. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Answering Legal Follow Answering Legal on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Nick Werker on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Read Answering Legal’s Lawyer’s Guide to 2023 Listen to our recent interview with Robert Ingalls, the founder of Lawpods Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Nick Werker: People were so excited, they were like, "This is so cool. I can't wait to see this come out. What else can I do? Do you want my help promoting it? Can we talk longer?" Again, it's one of those things that I think has gotten content creators and marketers back into having fun with marketing again. [music] [00:00:24]: Welcome to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [music] [00:00:41] Michelle King: Hey, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm also the Principal and President of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to Rep-ink.com.  Today, we're going to talk about social media, and there was a time when law firms resisted the idea of being on social media, but obviously, that's drastically changed over the years. The American Bar Association put out a legal technology survey finding that 89% of law firms have a social media presence today with LinkedIn leading the ranks as the most popular platform for attorneys. Social media is truly one of those load-bearing pillars when it comes to developing an effective legal marketing strategy. The problem is the market is saturated and cutting through the noise to boost engagement and visibility is harder than ever, so incorporating video marketing into your firm's social media strategy is a fantastic way to stand out.  I'm excited today to welcome Nick Werker to today's Spill the Ink Show. He's the marketing director at Answering Legal, where he successfully integrated videography into a number of their marketing efforts, including the recently released Lawyers' Guide to 2023, which I was very honored to be a part of. Thanks for having me today. [00:01:59] Nick: Thanks for inviting me. [00:02:01] Michelle: Or, thanks for joining me. [laughs] [00:02:02] Nick: I know what you meant. [00:02:04] Michelle: I'm so used to being the guest on these podcasts. [00:02:06] Nick: That's right. No, I appreciate you having me on here, and it's always great working with you. That's why we reached out for the Lawyers Guide and you're talking my language, so I'm just excited to have a conversation with you. [00:02:17] Michelle: Same here. Actually, I know our producer Sofia directed us to talk a little bit about video and social media, but I also really want to talk about the concept of partnership marketing, which, it's interesting a lot of people don't use that term a lot, but it's actually incredibly effective and it's one of the things you guys have been really effective in doing, and I've always admired. Let's back up and if you can just tell me a little bit about Answering Legal and your role there. [00:02:48] Nick: Sure. Answering Legal is a…I'll call us a specialized answering service exclusively for law firms and legal professionals. We have a few agencies that provide paralegal services and so on and so forth. But our bread and butter is small to midsize law firms. What we do is we're a 24/7 call center, really, but we train our receptionist to be your legal receptionist. They're trained in when to patch a call over to you, when to take a message from an existing client, how to speak with a new client, how to perform a legal intake, so on and so forth. We really try to serve as an extension of the firm, which is why we're constantly developing new features and giving our receptionists-- Our main goal is to empower our receptionist to do the best job for the law firms, if that makes sense. [00:03:42] Michelle: No, it's great. It's a great niche. Do you have a specific type of law firm or size of law firm that y'all are best suited for, or is it really any law firm? [00:03:52] Nick: I would say the people that are drawn to us the most are really the volume-based B2C type of law firm. I'm talking criminal defense attorneys, family lawyers, bankruptcy, personal injury, anybody doing civil litigation on the client's side, and really anybody who has a need to answer the phone call when the potential client calls because — we've done extensive research on this — but I can tell just off the top of my head that I don't leave a voicemail for a business anymore. I know that legal problems are really usually uncomfortable and people want a quick solution and a quick answer so if you don't answer that phone and you let them go to voicemail, they're just going to call a competitor. If you have the type of business where people aren't going to wait for you to call them back with a problem, that's when you call us. [00:04:47] Michelle: That makes a lot of sense. You've got to nail that touchpoint, so to speak, or else that opportunity is lost.  That's great. Let's start out with before we get into social and video partnership marketing. To me, I define partnership marketing as just finding like-minded or similarly situated companies that target your space, your same audience space, but aren't competitive. Tell me how you guys approach that at Answering Legal. [00:05:26] Nick: One of the smartest things I ever heard was that smart people don't have original thoughts and you don't really have to. If somebody else is doing something successful, you can adapt it and give it your own, I don't know, twist.  There's a guy who is in legal marketing who I really, really respect. He has thousands of customers. I was at one of his webinars because I just love the way that he markets himself, and I'm always trying to learn new tactics. He was pitching this webinar on partnership marketing. The reason being that you want to have a more attractive offer than your competitors. Now the way that he phrased this to the audience was he gave the example of a personal injury attorney who specializes in car accidents, should, or could, partner with the local chiropractor or physical therapist so that if you call me for a consultation and you end up hiring me for my services, that comes with one free visit to your local chiropractor to get an assessment or an adjustment or physical therapy for a back injury or whatever injury you have. That made so much sense to me because like you said, it's somebody who's not a competitor, but can also really enhance what I have to offer, my service. That's why we've partnered with somebody like you is because I have no dog in the fight of reputation or PR management or anything like that. Thankfully, my, and why we're good at it, is we only focus on answering the phone and giving the client the best experience over the phone. If I can tell my customers that we have a great relationship with this great company, Reputation Ink, if you're looking for help PR-wise, I know we have an offer, I don't remember what it is off the top of my head, but if you sign up with Answering Legal, you get a free consultation with Michelle and her wonderful company Reputation Ink. When we start to do that and build those relationships and people see that we not only are integrated with the right companies but that we just care about giving them the best business advice or consultation possible, that becomes more attractive too. People want to talk to you if you're honest. Not, "Oh, I'll sell you that and I'll sell you that." Plus, I mentioned this the other day, somebody said they wanted to develop something in-house, and I was like, people aren't going to want to buy that from us because you don't go into a car dealership and when you buy the car, you also want to buy gym equipment. It doesn't make sense. The car dealership does the cars, the gym equipment company does the gym equipment. I've just found it to be really useful and it's worked for us. I thought it was one of the smartest things I've ever heard. [00:08:29] Michelle: Well, and I look at it too from a, well, a couple of angles. In that one, it just makes creating content easier. You're not actually having to create so much content. I think what you guys have done really well is where you do these comprehensive guides and you bring in lots of experts in different fields of marketing and you ask them to create content. We, as the people you're asking, don't have to create that much. It's not a heavy lift, but when all put together, it turns into a great content piece. You solve that problem, but also too with social media, you're borrowing their audience. Those people are going to share and put it in front of their audience because you've just created a piece of content for them. It's really getting that bang for your buck with marketing. [00:09:23] Nick: It's so true. It's people who are interested in maybe just using you and have never heard of an answering service, but say we start working together or putting out content together and people see the benefit of, oh, I could have Michelle manage my reputation and I could also have Nick answer my law firm's phone calls, it's a win-win. You get exposed to different audiences, but it's also, I love the fact that— how do I phrase this? This is like the dark side of content marketing, too. If you think about marketing in the sense that, I just want to be where my target audience is, how do I get there? Even though they don't care about necessarily my message, well then, if I'm not the expert, I want to go be where the experts are and participate in that conversation. That's really like, if we're talking about the selfish ends of it, I think, that's a byproduct of trying to help customers. [00:10:25] Michelle: Absolutely. Tell me about your thinking with this recent-- You put out this 2023 Lawyers Guide and instead of doing written content, you did a compilation of videos. Can you talk me through that strategy? [00:10:39] Nick: Funny story. We have sent that out to subscribers, people who have opted into our blog, maybe people who have downloaded things in the past, and then all of our customers. I got an email from-- He wasn't a customer, he was using this service for a trial and he writes me an email. He says, "Nick, I need to talk to you right away." I called him up, I said, "Hey, how can I help?" He's like, "It's about this Lawyer's Guide. I really like everything. I want to put it in my briefcase. Can you send it to me as a PDF so I can print it out?" I said, "Absolutely. I can send it to you as a PDF, but it's 57 videos and longer than four hours of content that you have to watch. I can't put that in a PDF for you." That was the one response that I got there. I thought that was funny.  The idea of video to me is— I've been doing this almost a decade. I watched the content universe go from short blogs, keyword posts that nobody really liked to this, I'm going to call it storytelling, but really good storytelling. I've seen a lot of people put out some content that I've just been amazed by. It's got graphs, infographs, interviews, quotes, research. Research was big for a while. If you could conduct your own survey and then put it into your post, that was one of those things. Now I'm watching it evolve into people want to watch it instead of read it. That's been the boom of podcasts, too. I used to laugh at people who had podcasts until I made a podcast, and I was like, "Oh, I understand." Because we don't want to consume the content the same way. We want to listen to it, feel a part of the conversation and not be spoken at. This medium feels really inviting. I've watched your podcast. I watch a lot of legal podcasts. I watch The Always Sunny in Philadelphia podcast. I've seen that show like five times. It's just a lot of fun. It's more inviting to me than reading and there's a lot of research that backs that up. YouTube is, again, the biggest search engine right now besides Google, and Google owns it. I've also seen a lot of success in video marketing on Facebook. It's clear that there's a demand for video and we figured why not? It's more fun for us to create, in all honesty, it's a little bit easier for us to create because instead of sitting down and writing and editing and making sure it's all good, you just have a conversation with a person. It's more enjoyable. [00:13:40] Michelle: 100%, yes. [00:13:41] Nick: You pose the question at the top and then I have somebody like you answer it in your own words instead of dry written content. There's still a place for that too, I'm not saying to get away from that, but it was just something that we saw there was a lack of and wanted to test out. It's gotten a good response so far. It's been really good. [00:14:04] Michelle: That's great. As I built my agency, I switched from having a physical office space in one city to being remote and being based all over the country and focusing more on a vertical market with law firms and professional services. Video was never one of those things I thought would be able to scale in that way. You need videographers to be on the ground and doing the shoots and that kind of thing.  I saw some really innovative agencies during the pandemic that would really help law firms create their own video by doing what we're doing now. Because lawyers on the whole aren't the most visual type of industry. Our other industry we really work with is architecture, engineering and construction and that's really visual. We can go out and get really cool video of crews moving earth and building big things. It's more exciting, but lawyers are talking heads, sitting at a desk. I think the creating videos, just using Zoom is what people are doing and it makes it scalable and it makes it something that a lawyer could create and then work with somebody like me, any other kind of marketing agency to package up and to help direct. It takes away the tech requirements and the having to be on-site type thing. When you went and said, "Hey, can you guys just all collect this?" Was there any pushback or are people really understanding that it's easy to capture this video and you don't have to have a big crew out there and all the lighting and that kind of thing. [00:15:50] Nick: I had no pushback. I take your point because, when I initially started shooting video, I was really nervous. I was like, "It's not going to look good enough. It's not going to sound good enough." I'm a perfectionist. I don't want to put something out there and it becomes a joke. I don't want to be the butt end of a joke. I want to represent the company the best way that I possibly can. I did that by getting a $50 camera. My camera's $50. This ring light, that makes me look not so washed out, is $20, and this microphone was like $150. That's the three things that I use to record this podcast. If there were pushback or people did ask me is it affordable to start participating in or shooting my own video? It's very affordable. Then the response that I got— Well, I used a lot of people that we have relationships with and thankfully there was, again no pushback, but people were so excited. They were like, "This is so cool. I can't wait to see this come out. What else can I do? Do you want my help promoting it? Can we talk longer?" Again, it's one of those things that I think has gotten content creators and marketers back into having fun with marketing again.  If you're a behind-the-scenes-type person, this is fun for you too. You can cut up the video, you can make clips, you can try different thumbnails, you can put stuff on TikTok. I'm on TikTok. I laugh at myself all the time. I hate the way I look and the sound of my voice, but it's just something that you get used to after all that. [00:17:25] Michelle: Yes. You have to get over it. I'm the same way. [00:17:28] Nick: Everybody's like, "Oh, man, I saw you on TikTok." I'm like, "Oh no." They're like, "No, it was really cool. I saw you interview this person." I'm like, "Oh, okay. I'm glad that you liked it because I can't watch it.” [00:17:38] Michelle: Well, it's similar to the, like you were saying, the whole idea of, "Oh, I'm hosting a podcast," a few years ago, it sounded silly, but it's such an effective tool to one, build relationships. For me, it's been a real relationship builder. When I started my podcast, I would just target people I wanted to have a connection with, that I wanted to build that relationship with so that, I guess what you would say, is a form of partnership marketing or referral marketing. I looked at it just from a pure referrals and relationship standpoint with a side benefit of creating content. People who figure out how to use it to reach their goals or using it really effectively. I mean, I had someone teach me that, I just didn't know it. I thought, "Oh, podcasts are so…. The market's flooded. I'm not going to say anything new." But when you look at it really from that network building, relationship building while also creating content, you really get huge benefits out of it. [00:18:41] Nick: There's also a really cool guy. I'm going to forget his name and I feel bad because I like him a lot. He has a company, I believe it's called Legal Pods.  [00:18:53] Michelle: I've interviewed him. [00:18:55] Nick: Oh, good. [00:18:56] Michelle: Yes, or LawPods. Is it LawPods? Yes. [00:18:58] Nick: Oh my God. Thank you. I can't remember anything. I'm becoming my mother. It's really bad. Sorry, mum. [00:19:01] Michelle: I'm the same. I blame it on technology. [00:19:05] Nick: Do you think? [00:19:06] Michelle: Yes. [00:19:06] Nick: I can't remember the— I just called it Legal Pods and the poor guy's name— [00:19:10] Michelle: No, no. Yes. He's turned a whole business into helping lawyers do podcasts. It's incredibly smart. In fact, I'd love for us to do it more, but absolutely. [00:19:22] Nick: I just love the idea that there's a specific— I think he used to be a lawyer, right? [00:19:30] Michelle: Yes. [00:19:31] Nick: He's just having fun making a little bit of money. He's just got a group and he just teaches you what to talk about, who to interview, what questions to ask, what makeup to wear, what camera to buy. People need that information because it's nerve-wracking to— I remember years ago when I was beating the table for lawyers to write blog content for their website. That was my big thing. I would say “Why lawyers need to blog. Why this would be beneficial for your legal marketing.” But, what do I need in order to start blogging? How do I blog? How do I post a blog post? You walk people through, here's how you post on WordPress. Here's how you set up a wiki site. You can post on Medium and Medium has all this good link juice to give you. He has taken that same idea and just applied it to the way that people want to consume content today, which is podcast. They're super popular. [00:20:33] Michelle: I myself hired a podcast company to help me get started because we were slammed, we'd never done a podcast before and I want to make sure I did it right. There's a slight learning curve at the beginning, and once you get into it and you really understand the medium, you understand all the ins and outs. For the actual host it's— If you are looking at a lawyer wanting a lawyer to host a podcast, it's such an easier lift than asking them to write a blog post. Especially if you have the support of a company behind you the setting up the interviews, doing a bit of research for you beforehand, the calendaring. That kind of thing. Then it's really just having a conversation for a half hour or 15, 20 minutes kind of thing. It's a way to network. I think it's slowly replacing the going out to the chamber lunch, that kind of thing that we used to do. From a PR perspective, because that's our bread and butter, I'm seeing more and more news outlets adding podcasts to their offerings. It gives us another place to place clients. In another way, we'll pitch a story and the editor might run the story and then also have us on the podcast. Which is a win-win for us and helps expand our ability.  I've been in PR for 20 years, a little more than that. The media has changed so much and this is that newer— I think there's a resurgence now with multimedia, which is great.  Tell me a little bit about what this year looks like from y'all's marketing strategy. Are you going to try anything new? Are you doubling down on anything that you've been doing in the past? What are some of y'all's initiatives? [00:22:40] Nick: One of my favorite things is…. I focused in the past on a lot of growth marketing and brand awareness. Now a lot of what we do is, because we want to get better, we're focusing on product development this year, so a lot of our strategy right now is a lot of user-generated content, but we empower the user to generate that content.  For example, I've teamed up with a videographer. He's local to me, but he travels. What I'll do is I'll call up a customer who I know I have a good relationship with, and I say, "Hey, you're in this area. You represent this type of law. Do you have two hours for a videographer to come down, do an interview with you and feature you on our YouTube channel?" Usually, people jump at that opportunity because again, it's fun to participate in something like that. They get their name out there and because it's a high level— This guy knows what he is doing. I don't really pretend to know that much about cameras and shots and lights and all that, and set dressing. He goes out, he does an interview, we helps storyboard it, obviously, so that we can tell the right story. The finished product is incredible. Sometimes it's not that emotional, but it's really cool to hear, because what we do is we give lawyers their time back. You don't have to spend time on the phone. This whole message of what can you do now that you're not, I don't know, constantly answering the phone and trying to get back to clients or worrying about is my business failing when I step out of the office and you hear the response of, "I feel so much more secure now in my business. I can step out of my office and I know that my business is still running." I have that quote ingrained into my brain. [00:24:40] Michelle: That's great. Good quote. [00:24:41] Nick: Right. Then I have a woman who's like, "I became a lawyer to provide for my family, and I want to go out to lunch. I want to go play golf. Answering Legal allows me to do that." They tell this story without me. I ask them a question, but I don't prompt them to tell me these individual things and it's so much more relatable to the actual audience.  So, we've partnered up with this guy. He's traveling, I think he's going to Philly next month. He's just been shooting a lot of videos for us, but we're doubling down on the podcast. We write a lot of content, but my focus is always to try and help the user. Really all the written stuff we do is stuff like the 2023 Lawyers Guide. What tools should you use for your law firm if you are practicing this or what tools best integrate with your legal CRM? We just want to help people. At this point, that's really all I care about, is making sure that lawyers have the right information from a trusted and verified source. It's cool that we get to be that source. [00:25:51] Michelle: Well that's great B2B marketing. Being helpful is the number one key. I hammer that home constantly with my clients. No matter what, be helping. You guys have really nailed that one. In terms of social, obviously, LinkedIn. Do you spend much time— I think actually you just launched a group on Facebook, is that right? A Facebook Community? [00:26:19] Nick: Yes, Joe launched another Facebook group. Joe is my counterpart. I am the loud, boisterous voice, and Joe is the mastermind who figures out how to make me not run through the walls constantly, is how I'll put it. We have a couple of Facebook groups. A couple of years ago he had this great idea. He wanted to start a legal marketing group where we could just participate in and foster a conversation between lawyers. Who's doing this? Is it working for you? How should I do this? We have legal marketing experts in there, too, because again, we're not competing with them. It's in our best interest to participate in this conversation and get the best answers possible. I think he has a new group. What is the group about…? [00:27:10] Michelle: I've been invited to at least one. [00:27:15] Nick: I know what the group is for. It's a legal coaching group. I forgot about it for a second. What it is, is we have three main hosts, because obviously I only know what I'm talking about from my own myopic, egocentric view of things. I'm pretty sure they're going to rotate, but we have a legal business coach, somebody who used to run a law firm and is now just a coach. We have legal marketing experts, we have tech experts, people who used to be the CEOs of big, Clio-type CRMs. What we're going to do is we're going to go live, I think, quarterly. The group is there so that people can get notifications and it can be broadcast there. You can get into the live chat and ask questions to these hosts. Again, we're just trying to build a conversation and help people manage their law firm, run their practice better, get the best legal marketing advice. Also, business advice is so hard to come by. People don't want to talk about, I don't know how to motivate my employees to like working for me better. Now, part of that is, are you paying them enough? Sure. Once that's out of the equation, how do I foster a good environment or a safe environment in which my employees can thrive? How do I handle conflict in the workplace? These are the places that we can ask those questions because people feel like I should be able to figure this out. I'm the owner, I'm the operator, I'm the CEO, it's up to me to figure it out. It's not true. We can all share ideas and share the knowledge. That's what that group is for. I don't take credit for that. That was Joe's idea. He sold me on it, and he is doing his thing. [00:29:05] Michelle: Great. Well, it's another one of those as marketers, we give terms to things. I call that community building. Creating a community around an affinity, these are people interested in law firm growth from any angle. When you create that community, I've seen several companies do that very well where they create a community. By being the creator of the community that gets inferred upon them certain attributes, so you know that these people care about this industry. They care about their best practices, they're connected. You just get that visibility and that benefit from being part of that community. I see some people who do that extremely well. It's almost like a subset of that partnership marketing. It's the complete opposite of the old marketing which was tell everybody how great you are, tell everybody all these things about you and just shout it. It's the complete opposite of that, which is fun. That's the reason I like B2B marketing and PR, it is just about education and being helpful in the end and doing it in interesting ways. We're lucky, we work with a lot of B2B lawyers where we get to learn about all kinds of cool topics we would never learn about because we're helping them be educational to their clients. We're facilitating that, and helping them help. Yes, that's great. [00:30:41] Nick: That's like the best feeling when you get the fundamental understanding of a business because you can come from, like you're a businesswoman, and then they tell you, "Oh, this is what I do. This is how I speak to my client." And, "Boom, I got an idea for you. This is how you should talk about this." They're like, "Oh, my God, I never thought. Oh, it's the best feeling." [00:30:59] Michelle: Yes, that's great. I'd like to wrap us up with, do you see any trends impacting the legal marketing or business world this year? Have you guys done anything around like ChatGPT or talked about that at all? [00:31:18] Nick: I'm a wait-and-see type of person. I like to think that I'm on the forefront, but I'm really not because I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket. ChatGPT is cool, but there's a lot of strange implications, and there's a lot of people trying to make it better. If I start working on ChatGPT, but then the Google counterpart comes out and the Google one is better and it goes— [00:31:46] Michelle: Yes, remember Google Plus. [00:31:48] Nick: Exactly. [laughs] [00:31:51] Nick: I had business Google Plus accounts. [00:31:53] Michelle: Yes, same. [00:31:54] Nick: I'll be the first to tell you, I tried all that stuff. Are there any trends? I think the biggest trend that I'm seeing right now is that we've come out of this whole pandemic thing, and lawyers are fed up, they want to go back to work, they want to grow and they want to hit the ground running, and they're like, "What can I buy from you to make my life easier?" I think there's never been a better time to invest in legal tech, in automation, in growing your business and law firms are just hungry right now. From my point of view, I think that cases got pushed down the pipeline, and people are still coming out of that and need legal help. It was on hold for a little bit, but now it's almost as if the floodgates have opened. We have an outbound call team, too, and there's nobody that we speak to that says, "I just don't have enough clients to justify using an answering service." It's "Okay, how much does it cost? I'm looking for this. Do you have a recommendation for that? Can I integrate my CRM with you guys? Can I so on and so forth?" I just think that if you can be involved, again, in those conversations about automation and how you fit into that mold of what lawyers are really looking for, I think you're doomed to succeed. [00:33:33] Michelle: That's great. Doomed to succeed, I love it. Well, thank you. We've been talking to Nick Werker of Answering Legal. If people wanted to reach out to you, where's the best place to go, LinkedIn, your website? [00:33:44] Nick: You can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can email me, I'm really easy, nick@answeringlegal.com. You can go to the website and schedule an appointment, or I don't know. Call me at 631-686-9700. I'm super easy. Just email me, LinkedIn, I don't care, I'll answer whatever you got. [00:34:06] Michelle: That's great. Well, thanks so much for joining me. [00:34:09] Nick: Thanks so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. [00:34:13]: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes.

What’s the key to building high-performing teams where people feel valued and motivated from start to finish? Brent Darnell says the answer lies in leveling up our emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize, understand and manage one's own emotions, as well as the emotions of others. It encompasses self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, empathy and social skills. In this episode of Spill the Ink, Michelle Calcote King sits down with Brent Darnell to discuss how emotional intelligence impacts culture and success in architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms. With over 20 years of experience coaching AEC professionals on the matter, Brent shares valuable insight and actionable advice to help firms improve their leadership, project and operations. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn What is emotional intelligence? The role of emotional intelligence and people skills in addressing challenges within the AEC sector Techniques and strategies that AEC leaders can use to foster a positive work culture and promote mental wellness How technology is affecting relationship building and collaboration in a professional setting within the AEC industry About our featured guest Brent Darnell is a pioneer in bringing emotional intelligence to the construction industry. He began teaching emotional intelligence in 1999 and continues to help AEC professionals today through his company Brent Darnell International. In 2012 he was awarded Engineering News-Record’s Top 25 Newsmaker’s award for his record-breaking program that “transforms Alpha males into service-focused leaders.” In 2017, Darnell also won the volunteer of the year award for the Associated General Contractors of America (AGC) Georgia for his work in training and development. Darnell is a third-generation construction professional. He graduated with a mechanical engineering degree from Georgia Tech in 1981 and spent 18 years managing projects, such as the Brooke Army Medical Center and housing for athletes in the Olympic Village in Atlanta. Darnell is also a published author, seasoned speaker and adjunct professor at Auburn University, Penn State University and Virginia Tech. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Brent Darnell International Follow Brent Darnell International on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn Connect with Brent Darnell on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Brent Darnell: We talk a lot about creating that trust and understanding the other person's point of view. That's important with these collaborative project delivery methods. Even design-build, design-assist, CM at-risk, those are all more collaborative project delivery that, again, you have to have these skills to be successful. [music] [00:00:23]: Welcome to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering, and construction firms. Now let's get started with the show. [music] [00:00:40] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for architecture, engineering, and construction firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.  Regardless of your job title, if you work in the AEC industry, you're expected to collaborate with other people to deliver successful projects. What's the secret to building high-performing teams where people feel valued and motivated from beginning to end? In today's Spill the Ink episode, we're going to talk about emotional intelligence and how it impacts culture and success in AEC firms. I have the perfect guest to talk to me about this topic. For more than 20 years, Brent Darnell has been teaching industry professionals how to build critical people skills and leverage emotional intelligence to improve their leadership, projects and operations. He's the owner of Brent Darnell International, an author and a seasoned speaker. His programs and courses on emotional intelligence span the globe and have helped companies of all sizes.  Welcome to the show, Brent. [00:01:52] Brent: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. [00:01:54] Michelle: I'm excited to talk about this. If you don't mind, I gave that brief intro, but how did you get into this niche area in terms of teaching these people skills and emotional intelligence in the architecture, engineering and construction industry? [00:02:12] Brent: First of all, I'm a construction guy. I grew up in the construction business. My dad started as a carpenter. We moved around a lot to different projects, so I grew up in the industry. Then I went to Georgia Tech. I graduated as a mechanical engineer, so I have that background as well. I started mostly in MEP coordination and then got into project management. I did that for about 20 years.  Then I had this opportunity — I was working for Skanska at the time, big Swedish contractor — and they wanted me to run this leadership program for them out of Sweden. I did that for a couple of years. It was really amazing program. At the end of the two years, they said, "Okay, we're doing something else. Go back to Atlanta." They weren't really interested in the leadership stuff. This was in 2001. They just said, "We want you to go manage projects again." I really didn't want to do that so I started my own business. I saw a need there. We used emotional intelligence the second year of this leadership program that we did and it was amazing. It's something that really resonated with me. I started my own business January 2002 and I've been doing this ever since and never looked back. It's had its ups and downs, but mostly, if you see where the industry's gone from early 2000s, it's become much more collaborative, much more relationship-driven with Lean and IPD and all these collaborative project delivery methods, so there's a different set of skills that are needed. It's come to where these are have to have skills not just, wow, it'd be nice to have those, but you have to have them to create great projects now. [00:04:03] Michelle: Yes. That was actually going to be my next question, is what are the particular challenges that the AEC faces that make emotional intelligence and people skills so important? [00:04:18] Brent: Look at the collaborative nature. What's the percentage, I'm wondering, on just design-bid-build projects? They're really diminishing. It's all about relationships and trust and collaboration and sharing risk and sharing reward. That takes all the stuff we're talking about. That takes people skills. It takes emotional intelligence. It takes self-awareness and empathy and how to communicate and connect and create that trust in a really tangible, real way. We talk a lot about creating that trust and understanding the other person's point of view. That's important with these collaborative project delivery methods. Even design-build, design-assist, CM at-risk, those are all more collaborative project delivery that, again, you have to have these skills to be successful. [00:05:18] Michelle: Right. I can imagine it's becoming more top of mind with owners as well as they struggle with the labor shortage, recruiting, keeping the best people. Do you often hear that? Do they start with a, "Hey, how do I keep the best people that I have and how do I attract the right people?" Is that often a goal that owners are talking to you about? [00:05:44] Brent: Totally. To me, there are three main areas where this whole human connection, respect for people, emotional intelligence comes into play. It's workforce development. How do you attract and retain great people? How do you get younger people to come into the industry? Then we've also got diversity, inclusion, equity, belonging. That's another issue that's driven by ability to connect, ability for that human connection and respect for each other. Then I think the mental health component as well. It's the ability for these hyper-masculine work environments and hyper-masculine folks to be vulnerable and to really overcome that stigma around mental health and well-being. All three of those, to me, fundamentally, the foundation is emotional intelligence. The other thing we talk a lot about in these programs that we do is peak performance. Peak mental, physical, emotional performance, well-being. We talk a lot about nutrition and stress and sleep and exercise and how you manage all that with these crazy work schedules to have your peak level of mental, physical and emotional performance, and longevity. You don't want to develop some autoimmune disease or mental health issue that's going to force you to not be able to work in this industry. [00:07:12] Michelle: Yes. It's interesting you brought up mental health. My company focuses on two industries, AEC being one and law firms being the other. Mental health is widely discussed in the legal industry. I think that stems from lawyers having some of the highest depression and suicide rates. It's been a known factor. I don't hear it talked about as often in the AEC industry. Do you think that's changing with COVID and all the attention around mental health? How can AEC firms help employees with this issue? [00:07:54] Brent: It is changing. There's a couple of people that come to my mind: Cal Beyer, Sally Spencer-Thomas. They're really out there talking about this and reducing the stigma around it. We have the second-highest suicide rate of any industry. [00:08:10] Michelle: Wow. [00:08:10] Brent: Construction. [00:08:11] Michelle: Wow. [00:08:12] Brent: Suicide kills five times more people than all construction-related accidental deaths. [00:08:17] Michelle: Wow. [00:08:18] Brent: It's a problem. It's a big issue and so we have to start talking about it, number one. Then, like you said, we have to give the resources to the companies to be able to support those folks that are struggling. There's an organization called Construction Industry Alliance for Suicide Prevention. The website is preventconstructionsuicide.com. You can do risk assessments there and get collateral material, and all the hotlines to give to people and start the discussion. We've created a program we call Primal Safety which focuses on all these lifestyle choices and emotional intelligence and human connection. We've created something called the Primal Safety Coloring Book which it's a really cool coloring book. This kid, they leave him at grandpa's, and the whole family works in construction. It shows how they stay safe throughout their day, but it also mentions things like mental health and nutrition and sleep, and all those things. At the end of the day, they come home safely to the kid. It's in Spanish and English. All of our profits from that goes to the Construction Industry Alliance for Suicide Prevention. [00:09:29] Michelle: That's great. What are some of the factors that lead to the construction industry having the second-highest suicide rate? [00:09:37] Brent: I think the demographics are there. First of all, it's a really highly stressful job. There's a lot of uncertainty around pay. If you have a bunch of bad weather, maybe you don't get paid. There's very little benefits unless you're in a union environment. There's very little vacation, healthcare, employee assistance programs. We just don't have the support for our workers. They've become commoditized; and they're usually lower income, they don't make the money that we probably should be paying them, so they're struggling. They may be working other jobs. They may not be getting enough sleep. That plus the hyper-masculine work environment, can't be vulnerable, can't ask for help, can't be struggling. Plus there's a typical emotional profile for most field people and superintendents. It's really high assertiveness and independence, which you would imagine to be true, but lower emotional self-awareness, lower empathy skills. Think about it that way. You're not understanding your own feelings, but also you don't understand the feelings of others. You don't have the ways of looking at those nuanced changes in people that may indicate mental health issues and have those discussions with them because you just don't have the skills to be able to do that. It's a perfect storm. [00:10:56] Michelle: That makes sense. Yes, perfect storm. That's what I was thinking, yes, that creates that problem. You had some questions on your website that were fascinating to me. I think the lead was “How many of these questions have you asked yourself?” I know you're talking to that AEC firm leader, but one of them was, “Why is our company filled with middle-aged white guys? Where are the women and minorities?” [00:11:25] Brent: Right. [00:11:26] Michelle: Tell me a little bit how that plays into emotional intelligence and people skills and how you help firms with that. [00:11:36] Brent: First of all, I love middle-aged white guys. I am a middle-aged white guy. It's not a slam on middle-aged white guys. It's a reality of the industry. I think it comes from, again, that typical profile, lower self-awareness, lower empathy. We're not as good at that inclusion part, that belonging part because it's a very transactional results-driven industry. Again, these aren't bad people. They just don't have those skills honed to the degree where they can connect with others as well as they could. That's what this training does.  We can improve things like self-awareness and empathy skills that creates better human connection, that creates more of a connection with other humans. That way, you can start having those discussions and talking to people and you can create a more inclusive work environment and really start talking to folks about— See, to me, the lack of women and people of color in the industry is a symptom of a bigger issue of we just like to be around people that are like us, which is social identity theory. That's just a fact. Also for the industry, it is about those technical abilities, knowing the technical ability and knowledge to be able to be a good builder and build a project, and the human side takes a backseat. If we're going to really be inclusive and really create that sense of belonging, we have to put the human stuff up front. That's what this word does. It flips that. I always talk about every interaction's a human interaction. If you could start there and then get whatever results you need, but start with the human stuff. [00:13:30] Michelle: I can imagine the fact that you are a middle-aged white guy helps a little bit to relate to a lot of the leaders because that is the demographic makeup. [00:13:40] Brent: Sure. [00:13:41] Michelle: That gives you some credibility. This isn't someone coming in that they think doesn't understand them or relate to them. It helps you open up that conversation in a way that someone with a different background might. That's fascinating. [00:14:00] Brent: It does. It really helps. Also what I've done is I've asked people to help me. Women of color, LGBTQ folks that are in the industry, “Tell me what your experience is.” Then I've created a course around that. We talk about, "Okay, let's recognize our biases, and let's recognize those things, but let's not dwell on those things." Let's say, "Yes, that's a fact. We all have these biases, but let's figure out how can we connect as humans better." That's the whole thrust of what I think we're going. We can't ignore those things. We have to have those discussions of people of color and women in the industry have a different experience than me or a middle-aged white guy. We have to recognize that and be able to address that in some way, but the recognition is the first step. [00:14:55] Michelle: I talked to a diversity trainer who had this term he called OWLs, old white leaders. [00:15:01] Brent: [laughs] [00:15:02] Michelle: He talked a lot about making it safe for them, too, to have these conversations because I think a lot of people are just scared. They don't know. It feels like there's landmines everywhere so they just avoid it altogether. I thought that was a really intelligent approach. [00:15:20] Brent: Absolutely. It's so true. There's a book out that's called White Fragility and I think it's done more harm than good. I think the white guys are so afraid to make a mistake that they just tend to distance and say, "I'm just not going to address this because if I say the wrong thing, I can be canceled. I can be fired." It happens and it has happened, and yet we have to have those really difficult discussions to be able to move forward, I think. It's a balance with that, but the white guys need help and you have to tell them when something's inappropriate or that your feelings got hurt or it's something that really upset you. We have to have those discussions if we're going to change behaviors. If we never make a mistake or we never bring that up that that was a mistake, then nothing will change. [00:16:17] Michelle: Right. Let's say someone says, "Okay, I want to improve the emotional intelligence of my team." What would be the way you do that? What are some of the methods that you use or the things that people learn? [00:16:33] Brent: We use a couple of evaluations when we do a full-blown program. It's the EQ-i 2.0, which is one of the oldest emotional intelligence instruments on the planet. It's a validated peer-reviewed instrument, which a lot of these personality tests, they've never been validated scientifically. That's where we start. Then we have something called the Symptom Survey, which is based on physical symptoms. It tells us how your body's working. We look at the results of both of those evaluations and then we see correlations all the time. I'll give you an example. If we see something, what we call self-sacrifice in the emotional side, which is really high empathy, a lower assertiveness — the opposite of that alpha male thing. We call that self-sacrifice: tendency to put other people's needs ahead of your own, trouble setting limits and boundaries, trouble saying no to people. We almost always see sugar handling as an issue, which means they tend to be carboholics or sugarholics. [00:17:34] Michelle: Ah, interesting. [00:17:36] Brent: We work on both of those areas. We'll work on the physical stuff and nutrition and all the things we know that we should be doing, but then for a self-sacrificer, we'll also work on their assertiveness and being more clear in communication and setting some limits and boundaries. We tend to work on both. By the way, we've created a free test that has both of those tests on it. If they go to brentdarnell.com/resources, you can download. It's called the Ghyst EI Test and Symptom Survey. [00:18:06] Michelle: Interesting. [00:18:07] Brent: You can take it and see where you are. It automatically graphs your results and tells you what profiles it sees for the emotional and physical. [00:18:15] Michelle: We've done personality tests with my team in the past. I would imagine a lot of the benefit is, one, self-awareness. learning more about yourself, but also just gaining that knowledge that people on your team have a different make-up and react differently. Is that what you often see there? [00:18:35] Brent: Yes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming personality tests. Anything that brings you better self-awareness is certainly a worthwhile endeavor. That's one of the biggest benefits we see coming out of these programs because all of our programs, or most of what we do is a year-long process. It really takes that to be able to create behavioral changes in people because you can't develop empathy in a weekend or a half day or a lunch-and-learn. You have to have some application and coaching and follow-up and reflection and so it takes a long time to do that. It's about understanding what those different emotional and physical competencies that you want to work on, and then we provide the resources to be able to do that. That's where, again, over time, that awareness becomes behavioral change because we always say awareness alone will not change behavior. Information will not change behavior. If that were true, we would all be pretty awesome. [00:19:43] Michelle: Right. Absolutely. [laughter] [00:19:43] Michelle: That's the truth. You're giving people information and then giving them tools to actually use that information and make changes. [00:19:53] Brent: Right. There are just activities that you put in for development plan. We have daily application stuff, more long-term stuff, books, all kind of written and performance material, movies. We got apps and websites. People have different proclivities toward how they want to learn so we just give them a bunch of different options and then they can start working on those areas. Over time, the behavior does shift and change. [00:20:25] Michelle: How have you seen technology impacting emotional intelligence, relationship building, collaboration? Are you seeing technology impact that in any way? [00:20:38] Brent: You know, it can be very good. I've talked to a lot of tech companies about this. Sometimes technology enables you to hate people faster and with more anonymity. [00:20:50] Michelle: Right. It's the truth. Yes. [00:20:51] Brent: Look at bullying and those online things that take place. I'd say those technologies and those project sharing and file sharing and collaborative tools are awesome. They're much better if you start with the human connection part. See, here's the thing. I think some of these tech companies, they come in and they have these great tools and then they fail. They fail because of the human stuff, not because of the technology. Then the people using the technology say, "That technology didn't work, let's try another one." It has very little to do with the technology and everything to do with how you connect as humans. [00:21:31] Michelle: Absolutely. What about safety? I thought that was interesting to see how emotional intelligence can impact safety. How does it? What's the correlation? [00:21:42] Brent: Yes. My theory, this is just a theory, that if people care about each other and learn about each other's lives and families, they work safer naturally because they will be looking out for each other and correct each other. In this Primal Safety Coloring Book, at the end we have— Oh, by the way, that's on the resources too. There's a whole list of 52-— Not the coloring book, but it's called the Primal Safety Toolbox Safety Topics. It's not about PPE, it's not about tying off, but it's about how you connect as humans. One of the exercises is pair up and tell somebody you don't know about your family. Or pair up and tell a story about what it would be like if you didn't go home today. What would that look like? [00:22:34] Michelle: Interesting. [00:22:34] Brent: If somebody showed up at your family's door and say, "I'm sorry, but Bob passed away today in an accident and he died," what would the consequences of that be? It's those things where we tap into emotional responses. There's a philosopher named Ken Wilber who said, "Rules and regulations will only get you so far with changing people's behavior. Then you have to go to the next level, which is an emotional response to whatever your behaviors you're trying to change." This gets into the behavioral aspect of how we connect with each other and looking out for each other. Then also we talk about lifestyle choices. What do you eat? What do you drink? How are you sleeping? Are you exercising? Are you managing your stress?  I give the example of a guy who wakes up, he's hungover; he has a fight with his wife; he has a flat tire; he's late for work; he rushes in; he's off at the world; he grabs a couple of Red Bulls and a couple of donuts and pops some cold medications or something to jack him up. Then that's your crane operator for the day. [00:23:47] Michelle: Wow. That is an impactful scenario.  [00:23:54] Brent: And not to tell people how to live their lives, but tell them the consequences of the choices that they're making in terms of their own personal safety and for the safety of others. We promote good food. Get those horrible food trucks off the site and bring something that's healthy in, and stop giving people frozen burritos that are microwaved for lunches. Get some good healthy food out there and talk to them about how they eat. I don't know how many projects I've been to where there's a massive litter of a bunch of Monster Energy drink and Red Bull cans. If those guys are going on that, that's dangerous. [00:24:36] Michelle: Yes. Absolutely. It seems obvious, but I can see how it's just an easily overlooked thing because it's probably how it's always been. [00:24:49] Brent: Right. [00:24:51] Michelle: It's those kind of things. The other question that I saw on your site that was interesting to me is “Why can't we pass knowledge to our young people?” How does emotional intelligence help with that? [00:25:04] Brent: I always get the complaints of the baby boomers about the young people, and how they have horrible work ethics and they're lazy and whatever. I think there's a disconnect there, but I think it's an artificial disconnect. I've done several keynotes of the generations and why we're not so different. I think those generational things that some consultants came up with are totally made up. There's no research behind it. All the dates are arbitrary. I think it's just made up.  Now, there are different preferences in communication; different preferences in use of technology. Those are real things. In the end, if you look at something called self-determination theory, people want to feel like they belong. They want to learn and become masterful at something. They want to be connected in some way. I think a lot of boomers think, "Oh, they want to be VP in two years and that's impossible. It'll take them 10 years to be a project manager." I say, "Why? Why don't you teach them everything you know and cut them loose and let them go?" Our father said the same thing about us, that we're lazy and we don't have good work ethic. All those things. It's not a generational issue, it's just we— I put up a quote, our children are worse than we are and our grandchildren will be even worse, and it's from like 2nd century BC. [00:26:43] Michelle: [laughs] [00:26:43] Brent: This is nothing new. I think a lot of it's made up in our heads and we have to embrace that they do things differently and teach them everything we know. Identify those high potentials, put them on the fast track. Back when it took you 10 years to become a PM, you probably had Lotus Notes and fax machines. You didn't have the power of the entire world and the knowledge of the entire world in your hand. Things are different now. Access to information is different now. We don't need to have those mentor-mentee relationships necessarily in terms of passing on knowledge. What we have to do is, like I said, cut them loose and they'll figure it out. If I had a group of millennials in a room and said, "Hey, design me a pedestrian bridge that goes from here to here. You have an hour and a half," they would do it. They would find a way to do that. They would access that information. They would get in a Reddit room; they would find some civil engineer in India, and they would figure it out. We don't let them and we have this stigma around you have to pay your dues and it takes time to learn all this stuff. My theory is, why?  [00:28:04] Michelle: Yes, that's a great point. Business works at a different pace now than it used to. Technology has changed how fast we move and how fast we learn certain things. I even struggle with that feeling— that difference between people 20 years younger than me so I can understand that. [00:28:34] Brent: Yes. I think, again, it's about human connection and creating that trust and doing a mind dump and teach them everything you know and let them go. In fact, if you put a really young, maybe not really a high level of experience PM with a really good seasoned field person like a good foreman or superintendent, why not? We say, "Oh, they're not ready for that." Just put them out there and see how they do and give them the support when they need it, right? [00:29:12] Michelle: Yes. That's great. [00:29:12] Brent: That's my theory. [00:29:13] Michelle: Love it. This has been a really interesting conversation. I love that you are focused on such an important topic in an industry where I don't hear it as much, but I'm certainly going to dive into some of your resources and start educating myself a little bit more on this topic in this industry. If you can give everyone your website address so that-- I think you said it earlier. Is it Brent Darnell…? [00:29:39] Brent: Yes. Brentdarnell.com with two Ls in Darnell. Also, I'll just throw out this, if you want to read my book, The People Profit Connection, which is about this emotional intelligence work for the industry, the subtitle is How to Transform the Future of Construction by Focusing on People, it's brentdarnell.com/peopleprofit. [00:30:02] Michelle: Love it. Great. [00:30:03] Brent: All one word lowercase, peopleprofit. They can download the PDF of that book and put it on their reader. [00:30:10] Michelle: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me. [00:30:13] Brent: Thank you. [music] [00:30:15]: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes. [music]

Lori Sullivan, President of BluePrint Growth Consulting, brings a wealth of experience from her decades in the AEC industry. She discusses the fierce competition in the sector and the necessity of customer-centric strategies. Key insights include the importance of branding and reputation in business development, common pitfalls AEC firms face, and the evolution of prospecting from traditional to digital methods. Sullivan emphasizes building meaningful relationships to thrive in a constantly changing market.

The global legal technology market has rapidly grown into a multibillion-dollar industry — and it’s still expanding. Even in its infancy, legal tech is revolutionizing how law firms manage client relationships and internal processes, yielding better overall services for more affordable prices. What trends are shaping the future of the legal industry? What do law firms need to know to keep up with the times? This episode of Spill the Ink features Jared Correia, the founder and CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting and co-founder of Gideon Software, Inc. Jared and Michelle Calcote King discuss how emerging legal tech is changing the way firms operate and the common barriers to tech adoption in firms. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Legal tech trends and how they directly impact law firms How may an economic recession impact the legal tech market? What market factors drive legal tech development? What up-and-coming legal tech companies and events are worth paying attention to? How is legal tech changing service delivery and pricing models?  About our featured guest Jared D. Correia, Esq. is the founder and CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting and co-founder and COO of Gideon Software, Inc. Red Cave offers subscription-based business management consulting services for law firms, bar associations and legal organizations. Jared is a regular contributor to legal publications, including his column, “Managing,” for Attorney at Work. Jared is the host of the award-winning Legal Toolkit podcast on Legal Talk Network, and hosts the NonEventcast podcast for Above the Law, which focuses on technology and innovation in the legal field. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Red Cave Law Firm Consulting Follow Red Cave Law Firm Consulting on Twitter and LinkedIn  Check out Gideon Software, Inc. Connect with Jared Correia on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Jared Correia: I think lawyers have to start being more comfortable with change management. I think lawyers have to start being more comfortable with risk management. That's the biggest barrier to everything. I'm seeing that improve. You see a lot of these attorneys who are 60s, 70s, 80s moving out of the practice. A lot more attorneys who are in 40s and 50s taking over practices, and they have a more open mind. Then the other big issue I see outside of the attorneys is the lack of structured data. If you want to start running analytics, if you want to have machine learning going at a high level, the data needs to be structured. Layperson's term might be “labeled more effectively.” [music] [00:00:40]: Welcome to Spill The Ink a podcast by Reputation Ink where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [music] [00:00:56] Michelle Calcote King Hey everyone, I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and legal services companies and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.  Today we're going to talk about the legal tech market. It's growing quickly. In 2021, it generated about $27 billion in revenue. In the United States alone, it's expected to exceed $35 billion by 2027. As a side note, my team here has written some great blog posts, especially recently to help legal tech professionals navigate and boost their PR. Go ahead and check out those on our website. Today we're going to dive into the trends that are impacting the legal tech industry, how emerging technologies are helping law firms and in-house legal departments modernize and improve their operations. Today, I'm speaking to Jared Correia, and in fact, I always ask how to pronounce the name and I forgot to. [00:01:57] Jared: It's a tough one. There's too many vowels. [00:02:00] Michelle: Did I butcher it? [00:02:01] Jared: That was pretty bad. No! But in all seriousness, it's “coh-RI-ah” like the country. [00:02:06] Michelle: Oh, Correia. There you go. Perfect. [00:02:08] Jared: It's even simpler than that, though. [00:02:10] Michelle: I love it. Jared's the founder and CEO of Red Cave Consulting. He's a business management consultant for law firms, and he's a legal tech entrepreneur.  [00:02:20] Jared: Here I am working from my kitchen! [00:02:22] Michelle: There you go! He's a seasoned podcaster. I'm really looking forward to this. Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me. [00:02:28] Jared: Thank you. Thank you. I brought my best mic just for you. [laughs] [00:02:32] Michelle: There you go. I like it. Tell me about Red Cave. If you can just give me a background, how you ended up in this area. [00:02:41] Jared: I don't know if it was necessarily planned. [laughs] I went to law school after college not having any idea what I would do with my life because who knows what they're going to do when they graduate from college with an English degree? What do you do? I don't know. I was like, "Oh, I'll go to law school. That sounds fun." I get to law school and I was like, "Wow, this is horrendously boring." When I was in my second year of law school, I went to the career development office and I'm like, "I think I should do business consulting for lawyers because they don't seem to be great at business consulting." They were like, "Hey, maybe you should get a real job, like a lawyer job." That's how it went. Then randomly, four or five years later after working in law firms for a little bit Massachusetts launched this free consulting program for attorneys. I started working there, worked there for about eight years, and then started my own company which I've been running for almost 10 years at this point. Then a few years back, I also started a software company with a partner of mine as well. I got a couple irons in the fire. [00:03:40] Michelle: That's amazing that you thought about consulting back in college. It's one of those things you don't really-- especially business consulting for lawyers, I haven't heard of anyone having that light bulb moment that early on. [00:03:54] Jared: I was in these law firms on internships and I was like, "My god, this is a dumpster fire. What is going on?" I'm like, "I could do better than this." [laughs] That's how it worked for me. [00:04:06] Michelle: That's fantastic. Tell me about the software company. [00:04:09] Jared: About, I want to say four years ago we launched this. It's a chatbot for intake, qualification, scheduling and then document assembly for law firms. The idea is that you can qualify leads and then once those leads become clients, you can produce documents off of a chat-based interface. We've had a lot of success with that. People, clients like building documents via chat through law firms and it takes a lot of the lift off the law firms. We got to a bunch of firms we're working with on that. [00:04:41] Michelle: What management consulting are you doing? Are you doing it mostly in the tech area or are you advising firms on on other issues? [00:04:52] Jared: My pitch to law firms is like, "Imagine if you had a partner who actually knew how to run a business. That's me." We engage people usually a couple times a month. We do a biweekly meeting just to keep things moving forward, but it's super broad. I've always been really shallow in terms of the categories. It could be technology, it could be marketing, it could be financial management and then I don't do the implementation stuff and I'm not building websites.  What's really cool, is that I've met a lot of people in the industry who do good work at very specific things. I can say, "Okay, I can help you with this or I can help you construct a plan around this, but you're going to need these three service providers as well who can help you and I've got great recommendations to make for that.” That's being an outside business partner-ish, working as far as this is concerned. Then in addition to working with law firms directly, we also have partnerships with around 20 bar associations. We're the consulting partner for the bar association and that's cheaper for the bars than hiring someone in-house to do that work. [00:05:55] Michelle: Fantastic. Let's talk about legal tech. You've carved a niche in the legal tech area. I know you do a lot of writing and speaking about legal tech. Tell me your take on what the market's seen this year and where it's going. I'd especially be interested in your thoughts with all this talk around the recession and how that's going to impact legal tech. Sorry to- [00:06:25] Jared: I know everybody-- [00:06:25] Michelle: -just throw a lot at you there. [00:06:26] Jared: [laughs] It's so funny. [00:06:29] Jared: Everybody's like, what about the recession? I'm not an economist. I've no idea. [00:06:33] Michelle: I feel we've been talking about recessions for three years now. [00:06:37] Jared: It seems like it's been a long time. [00:06:38] Michelle: Yes, I know. [00:06:40] Jared: Inflation's high, obviously. I don't know if we're in a recession or not, but my whole approach to this with law firms is like, you should be using technology to run your practice because it's going to be cheaper than using people in certain spaces. But you always run or run a lean law firm whether there's a recession or not and the leaner you can get, the more profit margin you can make, the more efficient you can be. I'm always telling law firms whether it's a recession or not, whether it's high times, you want to be as efficient as possible and running your law firm as effectively as possible because you're making the most money you can in that construct whatever's happening at that time. Maybe it's less than you would've made two years ago, but it's still pretty good probably. I found that most law firms are not really innovative at all. Not a lot of law firms are trying new things, not a lot of law firms are being aggressive about marketing, for example. The ability to be an outlier and legal it's a little bit easier to do that than in other industries where the business owners absolutely are more savvy. That's the way I look at it with folks. As far as legal tech trends are concerned, I guess there's two big ones I'm looking at right now. One is all the consolidation that's happening. As you know, all these larger companies, oftentimes like the case management software companies like the Clio or a Filevine or MyCase, they're either snapping up these smaller companies, or in the case of MyCase, they're being snapped up by larger companies like a LawPay. I think everybody's got this notion in their head that there's going to be this operating system for legal and there's this big battle between these huge companies about who's going to be the operating system for legal. I think that's a flawed premise, honestly. I don't buy that as being a thing. I think lawyers are too independent and I think most lawyers want to choose the best in class solution rather than-- [00:08:35] Michelle: And law firms are different. I know there's a lot of similarities. A small firm versus a large firm, a business firm versus a plaintiff firm. There's quite a variety. [00:08:46] Jared: I'm not seeing a world in which there's the Lexis and Westlaw of legal technology. I'm just not seeing that. The other thing I'm seeing is I kind of feel we're in the second wave of legal technology, as I would call it. The first wave is '08, '09, everybody started using the Cloud, all these case management software products came out, Rocket Matter came out, Clio came out, everybody's like, "That's awesome. Back office software. That seems to be selling. Let's build a ton of that." Then nobody built anything else. Pandemic hits and all of a sudden, all of these law firms are doing analog intake. You got to do digital intake and they have no way to do it. There's no software for lawyers built for that. Now you're starting to see more investments made in front office technology. You're starting to see more companies come out in front office technology, you're starting to see these back office tools, either acquiring systems that can do front office technology or building those features into their own products. I think that's going to continue, and I think it's long overdue. And that's one of the reasons we started a company that was a front office software because there's not enough of that in the space. [00:09:49] Michelle: Absolutely. I was shocked. I remember during the pandemic learning that one of my clients, no one had laptops. The entire firm. [00:10:00] Jared: What were they using instead? Stone tablets? [00:10:02] Michelle: Desktops, yes. You had to be in the office to work and I thought, "Are you kidding me?" It was quite a wake up call. [00:10:11] Jared: It's so wild. Lawyers cling to those desktops, it's crazy. [00:10:14] Michelle: Yes, it really is. I know we all have stories like this, but I still have a client — I don't do a lot of the day-to-day work anymore — but he will print out an email, write his response on the piece of paper, hand it to his assistant who will scan it and send it back to us. [laughter] [00:10:37] Jared: I was talking to a lawyer last week who was like all out of breath and I was like, "What are you doing?" She's like, "Oh, I'm taking my desktop out of my trunk and bringing it to my office." I'm like, "Are you for real right now?" [laughs] [00:10:47] Michelle: Wow, that's wild. [00:10:48] Jared: It's crazy. It happens all the time. [00:10:52] Michelle: What do you see are the areas that you think are going to really continue to grow? We had the pandemic that really put a turbocharge on — and you mentioned the front office stuff. Are there certain areas where you think are going to grow moving forward more than others? [00:11:10] Jared: I think the front office tech is going to explode a little bit here, which I've already mentioned. The other thing probably obviously maybe not, is automation: triggered automation, behavior automation, which leads to the machine learning and the AI. I get law firms, for example, who ask me all the time can you automate conflict checks? I don't think you can because I don't think the technology's sensitive enough right now. But at some point if you run a viable AI on that, you could be in a position where you could do something like that where a machine could tell you whether there's a conflict and do it in a similar way to how a human would do it. I think that technology is in its nascent stages. If you look at all that back office, front office software I'm talking about, none of it uses really any high level machine learning or artificial intelligence. You're seeing some of this stuff happening in legal research software. They're actually starting to use data effectively.  The three big things I see, one is the AI piece that's coming, the use of data analytics by law firms and software. You've seen that happen in sports, you've seen that happen in finance, you've seen that happen in a bunch of other industries where there's more reliance on data so people can make better decisions. No law firm are really doing that right now. I think the software is going to start to be developed to do that. Then the other stuff I think is interesting is all these web-based communities. People look at— Facebook changes name to Meta and everybody thinks Facebook is the Metaverse. There's a bunch of these different segregated online communities, which are various Metaverses and you're starting to see law firms do things like set up virtual office spaces in there. I think that's going to start to become more and more utilized by firms. Those are three things that I think are trending right now that you're going to see developed over the course of like probably in terms of AI over the next 15, 20 years, maybe more. [00:13:10] Michelle: Are there any major barriers that this industry is going to face that might slow down the growth? [00:13:21] Jared: The biggest barrier are the attorneys, because they hate change. When I talk to people about lawyers, people are like, “Lawyers are risk averse. They're so risk averse. I don't understand why.” It's obvious because their job is to spot every possible risk and so when they look at a new venture, they're like, "Oh, my god, look at all the things that could go wrong here. Why would I do that?" If they were advising a client, they would never do that. I think lawyers have to start being more comfortable with change management. I think lawyers have to start being more comfortable with risk management. That's the biggest barrier to everything. I'm seeing that improve. You see a lot of these attorneys who are 60s, 70s, 80s moving out of the practice. A lot more attorneys who are 40s and 50s taking over practices, and they have a more open mind. Then the other big issue I see outside of the attorneys is the lack of structured data. If you want to start running analytics, if you want to have machine learning going at a high level, the data needs to be structured. Layperson's term might be “labeled more effectively.” If there are five different software you're using and they each label a settlement with a different field, it's going to be very hard to extract meaningful information from that data. That's one of the things that's going to have to happen and both the technology companies and the attorneys are going to have to put a premium on that. That's just hard work that no one wants to do. Those are two big issues that I see. [00:14:53] Michelle: Do you think the trends that I've seen in the legal industry are often driven by client demand, things like diversity… Diversity is the best example I can think of. [00:15:07] Jared: That's a great example. [00:15:09] Michelle: This isn't altruistic firms, this is client saying, "Do it." Do you think clients will have any impact on the growth of this market? [00:15:21] Jared: Yes and I think they already are. I think the two big things that are being driven by law firm clients — and it's more of a push the bigger they get. The bigger companies are going to demand more of this. Law firms that are operating as outside council are starting to see this already in waves. The first is efficiency.  A few years back, like Casey Flaherty who was a Chief Legal Counselor at Kia, the car company. He was starting to give efficiency tests to law firms. Like, can you actually convert a PDF from a Word document? A lot of them couldn't do it, because all these companies are upset because a lot of these firms are operating on the billable hour that incentivizes inefficiency. Why would you learn to do anything more efficiently? You wouldn't. You're seeing a lot of pressure from companies now about law firm efficiency, more challenging of billing, more requests for alternative pricing models as well that don't value efficiency as highly. Then I think in addition to that, the other big thing is data security. You see a lot of these larger companies say, "Okay we've got sensitive legal files on our side, but you as a law firm are also maintaining sensitive legal files. We see new stories about law firms being breached all the time. What are you doing to secure your data effectively?" That's not just any longer about having a written information security program or a data security document that's two pages long. That's also about filling out the forms that these companies want you to fill out. I have a friend of mine who runs IT for several large law firms and they're asking these firms to fill out 100 page, 200 page queries about how they manage their data security. They have no clue how to do it. Those questions are only going to get harder. And this is in the US, we're not even talking about Europe with GDPR. [00:17:15] Michelle: I attended a managing partners forum, maybe it was last year. The very beginning of it, they went around and talked about-- The question was, what's keeping you up at night? These are managing partners of mostly smaller defense firms. The amount of people that said cybersecurity was outstanding to me. I mean it was by far the number one topic. That doesn’t surprise me at all. [00:17:45] Jared: It's a huge deal. Lawyers are risk averse because they understand the law very well. They don't understand the data security space very well and it's really dangerous. It's not enough just to get a cybersecurity malpractice insurance policy. You need to actually implement the tools in your office. [00:18:06] Michelle: Yes, absolutely, because it's such a reputation risk as well. [00:18:12] Jared: That's the biggest thing. As you would know, running a PR firm. That's a PR nightmare. A data breach. [00:18:17] Michelle: PR nightmare, absolutely. The risk aversion is something that as marketing and PR people, it's sort of the opposite approach. I see marketing and PR people…by nature, you have to push the envelope, you have to take risks. Marketing is not a risk averse discipline. We have to avoid shiny object syndrome. There has to be strategy, but in general you have to be willing to try some new things. [00:18:49] Jared: For sure. [00:18:50] Michelle: It's certainly a challenge working with lawyers who will point out anything and everything that could go wrong. If you spend too much time, why would you put anything out there? After a while, pretty much anything could go wrong and the more risk you take out of it, the blander and less effective it gets. [00:19:10] Jared: Yes, absolutely. Take a chance. Come on, lawyers. [laughter] [00:19:15] Michelle: Are there any companies in the legal tech space that you think are going to be the ones that are really disrupting the space that are important to watch? [00:19:26] Jared: Yes. I think some of the bigger companies that have been around for a while are still being pretty disruptive. Like Filevine for example. I interviewed your CEO on a podcast the other day. They've been really doing a good job building out case management features in their systems. They've actually started to cross over the larger law firms, which is something that hasn't really been done before. I think that's a pretty big bellwether for where this is going because a lot of those bigger firms prefer document management systems, they’ve never use case management systems. That's a big deal. NetDocuments is a document management and automation platform. They've been taking up a ton of market share in the large legal space. Then there's some smaller companies which are doing interesting things as well. This company called Milestones, I talked to their CEO the other day. They're doing law firm notifications to clients based on workflows. Essentially no touch notifications, which I think is a really interesting thing to do because most law firms are going to forget to do that, or they're going to try to do that in a manual way. That's a really hard thing to do. [00:20:33] Michelle: What notifications? Explain that to me a little bit more. [00:20:36] Jared: Emails, text, any notification you could send. Potentially with integrations as well. If you're using WhatsApp or whatever for texting, you might be able to send a notification that way too. I think that's something that some of these companies lack, these larger case management software companies.  Then what I'm waiting to see actually is a really hardcore legal project management or task management tools. You see a lot of uptick on like Asana, Trello, Notion. There's no Notion for legal. I think something like that, I'm sure somebody may be developing that right now. Maybe I will. [00:21:14] Michelle: That's a really great point. [00:21:16] Jared: That, I don't see anything.  [00:21:17] Michelle: I haven't seen that either. That's fascinating. Who are the people that are who are leading these companies? Do you see any trend in terms of are they all former attorneys? Do you see anything where they were smaller firms, bigger firms? What are you seeing? [00:21:39] Jared: Most of them, to my knowledge, are not lawyers. You see a few people who are attorneys who started companies. I talked about Filevine, Ryan Anderson, the CEO, he's an attorney. You look at a Clio, Jack Newton, the CEO over there, not an attorney. If I had to guess, I would say that probably like 75% of the founders and are not lawyers. They're people who are looking to disrupt the legal industry. [00:22:04] Michelle: Disrupt an industry. [00:22:05] Jared: I think the part of that is obviously because they're less risk averse. They look at this and they say, "Oh, there's so many solutions we can provide that lawyers just don't have the opportunity to even access."  The other thing I will say that, it's encouraging that the legal investment has been going up significantly year over year until this year because people worried about recession as we talked about, but nobody wanted to invest in legal technology for a long time. Lawyers are intelligent, which means they're hard to sell to. The sales cycle is long. There's a lot of entrenched tools, they're skeptical. All bad things, right? [laughs] I think it's encouraging that the investment has been coming in and I think that's probably part of the reason that more lawyers, non-lawyers I should say, have been attracted to this. The other thing I find honestly is that you see a lot of lawyers who launch tech companies, but they can't get out of their own practice because they haven't figured out a way to manage that effectively or hand off the reigns. It's really tough to do two things like that at once: managing a large law firm and also trying to create a tech venture because that's a very competitive space. [00:23:08] Michelle: Well, and that made me think too, the big challenge that I see a lot of law firms talking about is handing it over to that next generation. I would imagine that tech plays a big role there. You've got to-- Law firms are that quintessential, you don't own a company, you own a job almost, until you've built processes and systems. [00:23:34] Jared: Oh, man, you're so spot on. After the pandemic, and during, most of the law firms I was talking to prior to that, they were like, "I'm really inefficient. I don't know why." Then law firms started reaching out to me and they're like, "Hey, we need to start building processes and workflows." I'm like, "Okay. We're getting somewhere now." You're totally right in that lawyers don't build businesses like that. We haven't talked about this, but some states are now authorizing alternative business structures where non-attorneys, non-law firms can be involved in law firms. To be able to compete with organizations like that, you have to take chances in marketing, you have to build processes, and there's a chance that maybe you get acquired by some of those companies down the road. I think lawyers are going to be forced to do this eventually, but honestly it's about time because it only benefits them frankly. [00:24:30] Michelle: Absolutely. A few of our clients are ALSPs. Law firms often were founded based on geography, and their business was built around a particular geographic market. You're seeing that rise of the niche, and obviously you're still regulated by where you can practice in court, but I'm seeing more and more attorneys build brands that are national and international. ALSPs are good at that, too. They have a niche focus that can really deliver a niche optimized service. That's going to be something that the law firms have to compete with. [00:25:19] Jared: I mean, it's crazy. If you look at, even the ethics rules, before the pandemic, in half the states, you couldn't even have a brand name for your law firm. All those rules came off the book almost simultaneously. The bonafide office stuff. Everybody knew that was BS, but took like a global pandemic to change that. They're still behind the eight ball. It's wild. [00:25:40] Michelle: It's wild. It really is. This has been fascinating. Tell me, are there any trends that we haven't touched on? I want to make sure, and then the other question I have is just since we're doing a broad overview of legal tech, what are some of the associations, conferences? If you're dipping your toe into legal tech, let's say you're a managing partner, you want to start following the industry, getting information, what are the some of those that you recommend that they pay attention to? [00:26:13] Jared: I can do a couple more trends first if you want. [00:26:15] Michelle: Oh yes, let's do trends. [00:26:17] Jared: I like how your cat popped into the screen here, mirroring my daughter who's come back and forth for snacks. Well, two of the trends I haven't mentioned yet that I've been seeing is like a change in pricing models. I talk about firms moving away from the billable hour potentially. What do you move to? I see a lot more firms that adopting evergreen retainers. I see more firms doing subscriptions and products. What's interesting about that is that in terms of service delivery, which is a second big trend, and that's changing as well. The law firms only deliver services in one way, like painstaking. Cottage industry. Now, if you've got a law firm products, you can deliver documents. What I never understood was you got companies like LegalZoom and Rocket Lawyer out there, and law firms are like, "Oh, they suck. I don't like them." But law firms could offer the same services, capture those DIY clients as well. They just never did. There was no reason for it. I've seen a lot more law firms looking at new pricing structures, which is going to communicate more value to the client, which is going to potentially be more valuable to the law firm as well, which gets closer to like that total cost of representation, which is really what legal consumers want. Then I think that's going to change the service delivery significantly as well. The law firms of the future are probably going to have-- or the law firm conglomerations with other businesses, whatever they are, pricing model's going to be different, service delivery's going to be different. [00:27:42] Michelle: How will it change the service delivery? [00:27:45] Jared: I think it's just a totally different model for a law firm. If you built out-- The way I look at this is like every law firm process is analog, now it's becoming digital. My software company will help a lot of law firms, like, offer estate plans, right? Instead of doing the traditional thing where you meet with somebody, we have law firms that are like faxing documents back and forth. Meet with somebody, you write stuff out, you painstaking do mail merge on the well and stuff like that. You can make that an entirely consumer facing product where instead of having to have a staff, you can just say, "Hey, complete this chat conversation" and guess what? A document pops out on the other end and you're done. You don't want to talk to a lawyer, great. It's cheaper to do it this way, but if you do want to talk to a lawyer, we have options to do that.” That's just a seat change from most law firms. [00:28:34] Michelle: It really is. It's being driven by… I notice I have very little patience. I have some consultants that I deal with for my own business. I have one in particular who loves to call me. [00:28:49] Jared: Feel like this could have been a text. [laughs] [00:28:51] Michelle: I'm to the point where I just-- you start thinking about whether or not I need to switch providers because my patience has left the building for phone calls. It's because, honestly, in our personal lives, things like Amazon and UberEats… I can have dinner delivered to my door and not speak to anybody. It changes your behavior in your work life. [00:29:22] Jared: Oh, lord. [00:29:23] Michelle: You lose that patience of things that could be digitized and automated and that aren't. [00:29:30] Jared: Can we not talk about how much I spend on Grubhub every month? Could we leave that out? [laughter] [00:29:38] Michelle: Same actually, and Amazon. [00:29:41] Jared: Yes. It's funny you mentioned that because that's totally true. I used to practice law, I don't anymore. Now, as somebody who hires lawyers from time to time, I don't want to drive to your office. I don't want to touch your pen, I just want to schedule something online, have a quick meeting via Zoom and be done. I need to get onto the other stuff. Lawyers have never operated that way. They sit at the desk and they're like, "How does this statute from 1843 apply to this document I'm drafting?" I'm not interested in that. Lawyers love that though. They love being inefficient. [00:30:16] Michelle: I think it's almost taught to them. It will change as- [00:30:21] Jared: It has to. [00:30:22] Michelle: -the generational shift. Absolutely. [00:30:26] Jared: You asked about conferences too, events and stuff like that. Obviously, a weird time for that. I don't get out to as many events as I used to. It's starting to come back. I'll tell you the places I go to usually, where I pick up some useful stuff is some of the user conferences for the tech companies. I just went to Clio's cloud conference in Nashville a couple months ago. They had about 2,000 people in-person, a 1,000 people online. [00:30:53] Michelle: Wow. [00:30:53] Jared: That was a really good conference. Lots of vendors there. Talked to a lot of people about what features they're adopting. Filevine’s got a conference. I think MyCase is maybe doing some conferences across the country at some point. Then I also go to the Bar Association Conferences. You've got small firm conferences are pretty good. You've also got bench bar conferences, which draw a lot of lawyers because the judges go to those. Some of those bar associations have tech conferences, and then I use the term bar associations broadly. I'm not talking just about state bar associations, but also county, city specialty bar associations. Those are generally good. Then some marketing companies throw really good conferences like Crisp Video down in Atlanta, they do great conference. They give away Lamborghinis… [00:31:39] Michelle: Oh, do they really? [00:31:40] Jared: Yes. There's a lot of different places you can go if you're looking for legal information and want to meet lawyers. ABA Tech Show has been around forever. That's another big one that a lot of people go to.  If you want to find legal tech conferences or legal conferences in general to go to, there's no shortage of places to go for sure. I’d start with the vendors and the bar associations. [00:32:04] Michelle: That's great information. This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you joining me. [00:32:12] Jared: I've enjoyed myself. I finished my iced tea. [00:32:15] Michelle: I love it. I want to point people, if they want to learn more about you and your consulting, where should they go? [00:32:23] Jared: Oh, sure. You can just go to the website. It's redcavelegal.com [00:32:27] Michelle: Where'd you get that name? What's the Red Cave? If you wouldn't mind. [00:32:32] Jared: All right. Remember when I said I was an English major? [00:32:34] Michelle: Yes. [00:32:34] Jared: I went to a small liberal arts scholar, it was a humanities program. It's based on Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The idea is like you're in the cave, you're not seeing real things, you're not seeing the forms, you're just seeing shadows and then you come out of the cave and everything opens up to you and then you understand the world. I thought to myself, "What would it look like to be out of the cave and looking back on it?” And it's probably very bright flames coming out because they're projecting shadows on the wall." That was the vision I had for it. Then I designed a logo off of that. [00:33:09] Michelle: That's very deep. [00:33:11] Jared: Very deep. [00:33:13] Michelle: Very deep. I love it. Great to talk to you. Thanks for joining me. [00:33:18] Jared: Same. Thank you. This is awesome. Take care. [music] [00:33:22] Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.  

The state (and future) of the legal industry is drastically different from what it was 10 years ago. The rise of legal tech and social media platforms like LinkedIn are changing the way law firms operate and market their services to clients. Meanwhile, the role of firm culture in recruitment and retainment is shifting priorities for in-house marketers and business developers. What can legal marketers expect from 2023? In this episode of Spill the Ink, Michelle Calcote King and Kevin Aschenbrenner, the Senior Director of Public Relations at Reputation Ink, discuss the evolution of the legal industry and the trends that will shape the next decade of marketing and branding.  Michelle and Kevin also talk about how a firm’s legal marketing department can help keep them afloat during a recession, strategies for working with influencers to expand reach, the importance of niching down, and more. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn What trends shaped legal marketing and public relations in 2022? What are non-media influencers and why are they an important target for firms who want to grow their brand? How can firms communicate their culture to help with recruitment? Why recessions are great times to invest in marketing Social media strategy considerations for 2023 About our featured guest Kevin Aschenbrenner is the Senior Director of PR at Reputation Ink. Kevin is a seasoned PR and communications consultant with more than two decades of legal industry experience. Kevin has worked with firms from across the United States and Canada, as well as in the EU, UK and China. His clients range from boutique, specialty, or mid-level firms to members of the Am Law 25. He has represented Fortune 500 consumer products companies, colleges and universities, start-ups and technology companies, non-profits, authors and speakers.   Resources mentioned in this episode Follow Reputation Ink on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Kevin Aschenbrenner on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Blog post: “A Legal Tech Professional’s Guide to the Media You Must Know: The Bloggers and Media Outlets” Blog post: “How to Build a Following on Your Law Firm’s Linkedin Company Page” Blog post: “Why Law Firms Need to Know About the ‘Excess Share of Voice’ Rule” Blog post: “How To Get Your Employees to Share Your Content (And Why It’s so Important)” Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Michelle Calcote King: Recessions — like real estate investing— recessions are when you really get ahead if you can make that investment, it's time to invest in marketing. The winners, if they can do it, will be the ones that keep their foot on the pedal and honestly do more during a recession. Because marketing is just such a long-term game and you can get further because a lot of companies do cut back during a recession. There will be less competition for your voice during a recession. [music] [00:00:39] Welcome to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. Where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [00:00:56] Michelle: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King, I'm your host, and I'm the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink, that's Ink with a K.com.  We're changing things up a little bit with this episode and with Spill The Ink in December. I've invited members of my own team here at Reputation Ink to come on the show and interview me and overall just share in a great conversation about the state of PR and marketing and professional services industries.  Today, I'm going to have a gentleman who has extensive knowledge in the legal field. I'm welcoming Kevin Aschenbrenner to Spill the Ink. He's going to talk about the legal industry trends and we're going to discuss our favorite strategies for securing placements for law firms and legal services providers. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting Kevin, he's our Senior Director of Public Relations. He has been working with law firms for most of his entire career, more than 20 years. He and I have a long history together. We've worked at another agency together. Kevin knows the legal PR world inside and out. Thanks for joining me. [00:02:20] Kevin Aschenbrenner: You're welcome. Nice to be here on this side of the mic. [00:02:26] Michelle: Yes, this will be fun. [00:02:28] Kevin: Usually, I'm setting up clients to do this thing, so it's nice to be doing it myself. [00:02:36] Michelle: I know people always think PR people are extroverts and I'm like, "No, we're the people in the background putting the extroverts on the stage," right? [00:02:44] Kevin: Exactly. Exactly. Yes. [00:02:46] Michelle: You're going to interview me about the state of legal PR and marketing. [00:02:53] Kevin: Yes, exactly. Why don't we start off by taking a look at 2022 and some of the trends that shaped legal PR and content marketing over the past year? [00:03:06] Michelle: As everyone knows, it's been an interesting couple of years with COVID, then we think COVID's over, and then the return to the office and all of this. Law firms aren't immune to any of that. Certainly, there's been a couple of things happening in the legal world. One that we've seen is niching down, it has become more and more of an important strategy from a marketing and PR perspective, and also just from how law firms operate. The law firms that we work with that seem to really get the most attention from the press, who do well on social media, and just really get the most ROI for their efforts are those who have figured out niching down, meaning really becoming known as an expert in a particular area of the law whether it's an industry or a certain practice. It's a very effective strategy. It's just a busy world right now. Even sophisticated legal buyers, they want to know that they're speaking to the person who holds all that expertise in a particular area so sourcing. I know you've seen it quite a bit with your clients. [00:04:23] Kevin: I have. I think to the extent that the more strategic you can be and focused in your efforts that way it increases measurability, you can be more effective because you're only focusing your efforts and your limited amount of time, bandwidth, and budget to a specific effort, and you can measure it better, and then you can ensure it's aligning with the rest of the strategies for your firm. Let's say if you have a really strong intellectual property practice, you want to be focusing on that. It's where money is coming in, business is coming in. If you put effort into that, then you can also measure it and see it grow in ROI, and that looks great for the executive committee, and everyone can be assured that time and money is being spent in the right place. [00:05:19] Michelle: Yes, absolutely. I think some of the other trends you and I were brainstorming earlier about is consolidation in the media with fewer media outlets. Where do you see that? I don't mean to turn the table back on you, I know you're supposed to interview me, but where do you see is that? If we have consolidation, what does that mean for law firms? What do they have to change about their strategies? [00:05:42] Kevin: I think you just have to be pitching really good stories. That has always been the case. There are fewer reporters at fewer outlets covering fewer things. They, like everyone in the digital space right now, they're governed by clicks, they're governed by interest, and they really have to ensure that they're providing their audience with value and with information that they're going to come to see and pay to see if they're behind a gate, a paywall. I think you really have to be pitching quality stuff. It was never the case for me and anyone that I ever worked with that we would pitch stuff that just wasn't relevant to a reporter just because we had to pitch it. I think that's, even more, the case. You can't waste their time, they're very busy. I think I saw a stat, it came from Cision the other day, that I think that only 3% of pitches get read or result in the story. There's a lot of noise out there and you really have to be focused and just get to know the key people who cover you, your firm very, very well and what they will cover and what they won't. [00:07:02] Michelle: Along the same lines, the media consolidates, but we're also seeing— I think it's very much due to the rise of social media, is non-media influencers. These are people that have really developed a strong reputation in a particular area, who have a strong following on social media. People tend to take what they say very seriously. I know that we've been doing a bit of that, helping our clients identify who are the people in a particular space. I think the next one we're going to talk about with legal tech but this is especially so in legal tech we're really seeing a lot of influencers pop up and it's important to include that in your strategy as well. [00:07:49] Kevin: It really is. Also, include them properly. Influencers aren't media. Their job is to build their own brand and they've spent a lot of time putting effort and money to grow their audience and grow their reputation. It's not like they're a reporter where they're getting paid to publish something. When you work with an influencer, you can't just approach them and expect that they're going to lend you their name in recognition just because you asked, there has to be a bit of a quick pro quo. They have to get some ROI from it too. I know there are some things that we've been encouraging, you in particular encouraging clients to consider, which is work with influencers on specific projects. Do a research study together, do a research project together, do something where you're going to generate news, you're going to generate data and then you can both share the awareness bump out of it. Do something that benefits both sides. With influencers, you really, really have to do that. [00:09:04] Michelle: Absolutely. That goes to the next point I wanted to make in terms of this year. Legal tech just continues to explode. I know it didn't just happen last year, but last year seemed to be a year where legal tech really took hold in the media's focus. I know that for some of our clients, CLM; Contract Lifecycle Management was a big topic. This is going to continue to be an area that gets really heavily covered. If you're anywhere near this space, it's important to keep track. We've written a couple of blog posts with some guides on podcasts and blogs to read up on, but it's definitely not going away and it's going to continue in importance. [00:09:57] Kevin: I think so definitely. Also, the legal media are paying more attention to legal tech. There are outlets devoted to legal tech, Bob Ambrogi's LawSites and Legaltech News from ALM, but there's also more like the straight legal media is paying attention to legal tech. Yes, CLM was quite big this past year. We saw massive funding announcements and massive acquisitions. That may cool a little bit now, and it has cooled with the rise in interest rates, but once that stabilizes we'll probably continue to see that as well. That's a niche in a market that's going to continue to experience growth and change definitely. [00:10:58] Kevin: Yes, that was the year-end review, some big touchpoints from the year-end review. What are you hearing as you talk to legal marketers, clients, other folks, legal tech companies, what's keeping them up at night right now? [00:11:15] Michelle: Yes. I talked to a lot of legal marketers, and actually, I had the pleasure of sitting in on managing partners' round table and hearing from them. I'm hearing a lot of talk about recession. Will there be one? Would that result in layoffs? We've already seen reports of layoffs at some firms, it's this idea of stealth layoffs.  As marketers recession talk, it's always the fear that marketing's going to be the first thing to take a hit. Even if you're not worried about your job, marketers are worried about the hit that that will take to the long-term health and performance of marketing because marketing — honestly it sounds so self-serving to say it. I hate to say it sometimes because it does sound so self-serving but really recessions — sort of like real estate investing — recessions are when you really get ahead if you can make that investment. It's time to invest in marketing. The winners, if they can do it, will be the ones that keep their foot on the pedal and honestly do more during a recession because marketing's just such a long-term game. You can get further because a lot of companies do cut back during a recession. There will be less competition for your voice during a recession. [00:12:48] Kevin: Yes. I've also found too— I mean I've been through a couple of downturns now 2008, which was devastating for law firms. You and I both have been through that one. Also, the 2020 dip was pretty devastating for law firms too. There were a lot of furloughs, layoffs, that kind of thing. I think that in recessions it is important not to lose ground. Also in recessions, everyone in a firm, everyone in a company becomes very focused on marketing. Marketing tends to become a huge focus number one because it's got to show ROI for the money being spent. Number two, because everyone's like, "We don't have business, now we have to market." Suddenly people who have never paid attention to marketing within the firm or company are all about marketing. They want to know. [00:13:45] Michelle: And it's the worst-case scenario. [00:13:48] Kevin: It really is. [00:13:49] Michelle: You don't start marketing whenever you need business because it's just-- [00:13:53] Kevin: No, it's a consistent thing. I like your point about staying focused on the long-term, the horizon. Don't lose ground now. Yes, you might have to trim. Yes, you might have to be a little more focused in your efforts, but keep doing what works and what has worked for your firm, I think. [00:14:16] Michelle: Yes, absolutely. What was interesting to me was at the LMASE which is the Southeastern conference of the Legal Marketing Association. Their theme this year was on culture. A lot of it was about what's the role of marketing in law firm culture? And is there a role? I was part of the committee. I think marketers have a big role in culture. If anything, they're the ones communicating that culture to prospective clients, to prospective attorneys, and how you present that culture is important. You have a good handle on what that culture is and make sure it's a positive one before you start promoting it. I thought that was pretty interesting that that's— I think it comes from a place of other trends that have been at the forefront. Things like diversity, things like environmental, social, and government topics; ESG. Those things are pushing law firms to not be just so focused on the billable hour and how much money everyone's making, but really making this an environment where people can thrive and people of all backgrounds can thrive and present their full selves. Then also things like mental health took a forefront as well. This is an industry that has a very bad track record in mental health. All of those things come together. I think marketing still sits at the forefront. I know many marketers who are tasked with quantifying diversity for their firms, who have to showcase diversity in RFPs. All of those softer topics are really taking center stage. [00:16:09] Kevin: Yes. I think it's really been driven because law firm clients are demanding it. They're demanding to know what's going on with diversity. They're demanding to know, "Okay, am I not just working with a partner who's going to talk to me and then I'm going to be given to lower level associates for all the work?" But also are you training up those lower associates and senior associates and younger partners to have continuity if I bring you business? If the rainmaker goes away is the work left and what happens to the quality of work for the client?  I think that firms that are really focusing on culture and not just giving it lip service. We've had so many years where diversity was given just lip service and equality and inclusion, and nothing was actually done. You did not see associates getting into partner ranks. 2020, I think that brought all that into focus. I hope and I believe that a lot of firms are doing very practical things to increase diversity amongst new hires, amongst associates, and then foster a path. I think it's up to marketing to help communicate that and show it because it's all through recruiting. It's a recruiting thing, it is a recruiting benefit to show you're walking the talk and you're taking action. That often falls on law firms to communicate about recruiting and efforts and show that the firm is serious about these things. [00:17:59] Michelle: Yes. That goes to another trend that we're seeing, and I'm seeing it in other industries too, where recruiting and marketing are overlapping. Because recruiting nowadays, people take a look at the website, they look at social media, they have more tools, just like a prospective buyer has more tools to self-research and self-select through and figure out, "Is this the firm I want to work with?" A prospective attorney or other professional is going to look at the marketing and that's going to drive a lot of their decisions. HR and marketing have to really work in tandem because that's a very important audience in today's recruiting environment where it's a tough one. There's a real overlap.  Then I know going back to the recession point, I think there seems to be more concern in legal tech a little bit— I'm just seeing that from an outsider's perspective here, but about what does a potential recession look like in terms of funding? There's been a lot of funding that's flooded into the legal tech space, but what will a recession do to that? That always puts greater pressure on marketers to make sure that they're showing ROI as well, whenever that becomes squeezed. [00:19:34] Kevin: Yes. I think in some clients I talked to in the legal tech space, they're thinking that that market is going to be a little flat for 2023. Depending on how a recession shakes out, people are not going to be as free with money and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe there are companies that are operating effectively, marketing effectively will be distinguished by that. It might be a bit of a crucible time for some companies. I think just the same thing goes, don't slash your marketing budget. Don't fire the marketing team, they're actually useful, and they're going to ensure that you have business through 2023 into 2024 and whatever comes next. [00:20:25] Michelle: To use the term that I borrowed from another guest, they are your revenue-enablers. [00:20:32] Kevin: They really are. I like that term. I like that term your revenue enablers.  We've covered 2022 and what's worrying legal marketers. How should people prepare for the year ahead, for 2023? [00:20:54] Michelle: We've touched on this but like I said recessions are a great time to stand out. There are going to be companies that cut back. This is the time to show that you are healthy, you're an active firm that is doing deals and winning cases, that you've got the expertise, you're keeping a pulse on trends and issues that your clients are facing. This is the time to really continue to get that share of voice which we've talked about on our blog but meaning that you're really making sure you share voices to the level that you need it to be to get the reputation that you need to build that business. Continue to focus on niching. Niching doesn't mean rearranging your entire legal practice, your entire law firm but it means more strategically thinking about what areas might bring in more work and then focusing your marketing dollars there. Not spreading everything out. Certainly, if you've got a marketing budget like GEICO does and you can hit every area but most firms don't have like a consumer products budget and so they have to pick and choose and that's where being more strategic and thinking through where are we likely to see more work? Where can we really carve out a reputation as a deep expert in an area? That's going to get you more ROI than really spreading yourself across the thing.  Then going back to the discussion around culture, I think marketers should be the people that really are constantly talking to their lawyers, clients, and thought leaders and they're really keeping a pulse on what's happening in the industry. They should be the one bringing to partners and senior leadership that clients are focused on diversity or clients are focused on ESG, whatever it is. As a marketer, you should make sure that you're doing that regular canvassing and talking to people as well. I wanted to touch-- Oh, go ahead. Sorry. [00:23:13] Kevin: No, go ahead. Go ahead. [00:23:14] Michelle: I wanted to touch on Twitter and social media. Social media is here to stay. I'll never forget a conversation I had early on in my business where a very senior, senior person said to me that social media was a fad. Every now and then I think back to it, this was like 11 years ago but social media is how we communicate nowadays. It's no longer this new thing that the young folks are on. It's really how we communicate as people. You've really got to have a presence there.  Right now we're right in the middle of the Elon Musk experiment with Twitter. Keep an eye on that. It might mean that if Twitter has been a key focus for you, you might have to switch. LinkedIn's always going to be critical for any law firm.  Think about how you can encourage your attorneys to not only network which is critical but also share the content that you're creating. As you know, LinkedIn favors individual posts and individual interaction. Enable your attorneys by sharing content that they can share on the platform, make it easy for them to do so in as much of an authentic way as possible. Then keep learning about the softer things that we talked about. Diversity and culture and all of those things are going to continue to be trends. All the social upheaval that we went through in the last few years. All of the Me Too stuff, that's not going away. It's going to continue to shape perceptions and reputations. [00:25:12] Kevin: I also think with Twitter, a lot of firms do use Twitter. I think it is worth watching right now and see where it ends up. There's a lot of concern around it. Last Friday was supposed to be the end of Twitter and it's still up as far as I know. It might not still be up now when people are listening to this podcast but as of right now it is up. I think there's also some other platforms emerging like Mastodon which seems a bit tricky and you have to you be a little tech-savvy to know how to use it just yet but I think it's always important to see what's going on. Then also make sure you keep tabs of what's going on and where people are going because if Mastodon hits then people are going to be on Mastodon. You have to follow the pack but follow the pack in a way that makes sense for law firms. LinkedIn is still the granddaddy of where to be for law firms. I agree with you. I think you really need to as much as possible encourage people to engage with your page content, share it, provide thoughtful commentary. LinkedIn really rewards that. It's becoming a bit of like the Business Facebook. The more personal and human and additive can be in terms of information, I think it's better. Just encouraging that. It is hard but I think you also focus on folks who are actually going to do it. There's going to be a lot of people who for whatever reason do not want to engage on social media or LinkedIn. It's just not part of their thing. It's not what they want to do, so focus on the people who actually do it and are doing it well and then they can even more easily integrate it. Also to your point of continuing with what works, I think 2023 would be a really bad time to make any really abrupt changes. Like don't do anything abrupt. Make sure that you're just continuing on, don't change for change’s sake. I think there's a real danger in times like this to try everything and change and whatever and that's not the best, I don't think. Stick with what's worked, make adjustments as needed but maybe reach out to a few more lawyers to add to the input call rotation. Start looking at those older associates and younger partners as people you want to start to cultivate and have them start doing— Like, the older associates can write by-lined articles. The younger partners can start doing interviews and start building that pipeline. I think, too, really put effort into building up the next generation, particularly with IT diversity. Make sure that the people you're offering to media, that you are working with shows the diversity of the firm, and demonstrate that. I think that's a really important right now I think and it's always important to bring up the younger folks. I always say, too, like when lawyers or associates they're expected to disappear and do the work and as soon as they are partners, they're expecting a subtle market. They don't know how. Take this time to invest in that. Bring them along and establish a pipeline for all your associates. [00:28:55] Michelle: Yes, it's a really good point about the dichotomy of the expectations at the different levels there. [00:29:01] Kevin: It really does show up at a time when new partners are dealing with so much. They're all of a sudden responsible for so many more things in the firm. Their income is now related to the performance of the firm as a whole rather than just their own performance. Then marketing is added on top of it as if they automatically know how to do it because it was covered in the last year or in year two, and it wasn't. [laughs] [00:29:30] Michelle: Completely, yes. It's interesting. This has been fun. Kevin and I talk all the time about these topics but it's fun to bring our audience into this. That's a wrap on our show today and thank you again for joining me, Kevin. [00:29:46] Kevin: Thanks very much. This was really fun. I hope we can do it again, maybe next year. [music] [00:29:51] Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.

We blinked, and suddenly December was upon us. What even happened in 2022?  To start, the massive federal infrastructure spending bill passed in 2021 meant more projects on the horizon for architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms. Recruitment and retainment became significant priorities for AEC marketing teams, especially amid the Great Resignation. In this episode of Spill the Ink, Michelle Calcote King hands the microphone to a special guest. Steven Gallo serves as the Director of Content and PR at Reputation Ink where he’s in charge of creating brand awareness strategies for the agency’s AEC clients. They reflect on the trends and legislation that shaped AEC marketing in 2022, discuss the growing importance of building a digital brand and reputation, and what marketing departments can do to prepare for a recession and the new year. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn What trends shaped AEC marketing and public relations in 2022? How did the 2021 Infrastructure Bill influence AEC marketing? What will be AEC firms’ greatest communication challenges in the new year? Why shouldn’t AEC firms cut down on marketing during a recession? What should marketers and AEC firms be doing today to prepare for 2023? About our featured guest Steven Gallo is the Director of Content and PR at Reputation Ink. His communications experience spans the media spectrum, including award-winning work for television, radio and digital platforms. Before entering the PR and content marketing arena, Steven was a broadcast news reporter in Florida and Georgia. Resources mentioned in this episode Follow Reputation Ink on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Steven Gallo on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services, and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Michelle Calcote King: If you don't have that digital presence and that reputation online, it becomes a gap, especially as we look at future generations who are much more digital savvy and we're trying to target those. If you don't have a website that is very easy to navigate, has all that content and anecdotes and details and photography and video that people come to expect you're in a worse place than a competitor would be. [music] [00:00:35] Introduction: Welcome to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [music] [00:00:53] Michelle: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms, architecture, engineering and construction firms, and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink, that's ink with a K, .com.  This month we're doing something a little different which is exciting. We're having members of the Reputation Ink team come over and take over our Spill the Ink to interview me instead of our usual format. It's going to be more of a conversation. It’s very special episode of Spill the Ink because I have the opportunity to welcome and hand over the virtual microphone to Steven Gallo, so welcome, Steven. [00:01:35] Steven Gallo: Thank you. [00:01:35] Michelle: Steven serves as the director of content and PR for Reputation Ink. He leads many of our biggest accounts. He's in charge of creating the phenomenal content and public relations strategies that we do for many of our clients in the AEC sector, the architecture, engineering, and construction sector. Before entering the PR and content marketing arena, Steven was a broadcast news reporter in Florida and Georgia, so he applies a unique media-savvy perspective to his client work. Thank you for joining me. [00:02:07] Steven: Yes, thank you. You make me sound so official, I appreciate it. [chuckles] [00:02:12] Michelle: It's exciting. [00:02:13] Steven: It's exciting to be here and cool in this format, so thanks for bringing me in, Michelle. I know somehow the holiday season is already upon us. Before we get, I guess, too ahead of ourselves and jump into the New Year, let's maybe talk about 2022 and the AEC industry. I guess looking back over this past year, what are some of the factors that, from your perspective, really shaped AEC marketing and PR? [00:02:41] Michelle: We've been working in the AEC sector since we were founded 11 years ago. I would say the number one trend that I'm seeing is the labor shortage and how really recruiting is becoming a top priority for marketing. Every AEC firm owner that I speak to, that's their challenge. The work is there, so they can secure the projects, funding is great. There's a lot of government funding happening, but also the private sector is building, but really, it's finding the people to build these projects.  Coming off of COVID, we've got just such a disruption in the market and the industry was already facing a labor shortage. Really, much of marketing's role is becoming how to communicate a brand that people want to work for — differentiating. Because every other firm is out there hiring and competing for the same people. Really communicating what a company is about, why work for them, what kind of career you can expect. It's a real melding of those disciplines and I know our team is working really closely with HR departments to help them on those initiatives. [00:04:04] Steven: Yes, and to your point too, attrition in the industry, this changing of the guard almost that we've been seeing happening in the past few years and looking ahead, there's this need for that worker. I know that that's a big part of it now even for maybe traditionally, not as much from a marketing standpoint but marketing being a great place to work now it seems more important than ever, at least in this industry. [00:04:25] Michelle: Yes, absolutely. Then other trends I'm seeing is when I first started this company 11 years ago and before when I was working at other agencies, you would talk to people in more conservative industries like AEC and there was a sense that we're exempt from needing to do that kind of marketing. That doesn't apply to us and that's changing. I'm having clients come to me and say, "We need to do thought leadership," or, "We need to do some niche focusing in on a certain industry."  It's really interesting to see that transition from, "No, we don't need to do that. We're all about in-person, relationship building,” to realizing that building a brand online and developing a brand and a reputation for having expertise in certain niche areas is incredibly important to building their business. That's a shift that's been slowly happening, but I'm really feeling it moreso now with client requests. It's less me explaining why you need to write an article for a trade publication to them saying, "We really need to write an article for X and X publication," and me thinking, "Wow, that's great that they're coming up to us with that." [00:05:49] Steven: Yes, a paradigm shift happening. I think realizing that construction, architecture, engineers, we're not immune necessarily to these changes and it's just as important. [00:05:59] Michelle: Right. What I often show is how they're right, it is a relationship business, but relationships are formed in very different ways nowadays. People spend a lot of time online educating themselves and connecting with people. While we're certainly, thankfully, we're in a different place than we were just last year or two years ago where we are going to meetings and seeing people in person, it's very important to make sure that your website is an incredibly robust website. You're telling the stories about your projects, you're regularly telling stories about what it's like to work there, you're sharing updates about milestones on projects, that kind of thing. Because if you don't have that digital presence and that reputation online, it becomes a gap. Especially as we look at future generations who are much more digital savvy and we're trying to target those. If you don't have a website that is very easy to navigate, has all that content and anecdotes and details and photography and video that people come to expect, you are in a worse place than a competitor would be. [00:07:22] Steven: Yes, that's a great point. You mentioned, despite the fact that we're looking a bit more like pre-COVID in terms of day-to-day life, but a lot of those same remote work habits and that hybrid model. We're in a different world now that there's some things that feels like that can't be put back in that box and we're seeing that now. [00:07:45] Michelle: Yes, well, we have a very large, what we thought was a more conservative client that right out of the gate when COVID hit, said, "You know what? This work-from-home thing is actually working for us," and has let employees really continue working from home in a very flexible format that I don't think I would've ever expected, especially in this industry. We have other AEC clients that are like, "No, you absolutely have to get back to the office." That's a culture thing. This is a tangible industry that's working on projects, so it makes sense that it can't be fully remote, but a lot of those habits remain. The fact that you can accomplish multiple meetings with multiple different audiences in one day over Zoom versus spending a whole day out just for one meeting is still happening. They're realizing that they really have to upgrade their digital presence to reflect that environment. [00:08:50] Steven: Yes, definitely. Speaking of clients of ours, as you mentioned, I've had a pleasure to work with a lot of these AEC clients for a number of years now at the agency. If there's one thing I've learned about that sector and the smart people that work in it is that there's always something new to learn, there's always something going on. I guess I'm curious, as we're reflecting back on 2022, any surprises, learnings, takeaways that the clients have seen this year? What have you been hearing? [00:09:19] Michelle: I think for me what I'm seeing is there's a realization that marketing does not equal proposals. For the longest time in this industry, if a company had an in-house marketing person or team, that person was really just doing proposals. They weren't doing the brand-building work that we do, the telling stories on social media, telling stories through PR, through engaging with the media and publishing articles, and getting news out about projects. They're realizing that, yes, proposals are always going to be important, but there's this whole other realm of activities that we have to do to have that brand presence. Just the importance of that online brand. It's funny to be in 2022 talking about social media and that people are realizing it's important, but it really is true to see how, especially these AEC owners are older many of them. These are people that didn't grow up with social media and seeing them really understand that they have to be very active on platforms like LinkedIn and have to engage there, that that's where people are and that's where they're learning about people. I just got off a prospect call with a construction company owner and I asked him where he heard of us and he said, LinkedIn. They're on there and they're starting to really engage in those platforms, especially as they realize that recruiting is such an important focus and that they're trying to recruit these more younger people. That the importance of social media can't be understated. [00:11:09] Steven: Exactly, right, especially in that recruiting conversation now, it definitely can't be ignored because that's a pain point. Everyone's feeling it seems. Something I've noticed as well— We're helping a client go through a big milestone year and brand changes and it's this understanding as an AEC firm that having a brand now, I need to be thinking about that. Maybe at least compared to historically, it was really all about, "Hey, here's who we are." I guess, what does that look like for AEC firms and why does it matter? [00:11:44] Michelle: I know the example you're thinking of there, but I think the whole industry is feeling it is that there's this shift in delivery methods. Especially for clients that do a lot of government work, it used to be a hard bid environment. There was a good argument for the fact that marketing didn't really make an impact there when we're really just it's the lowest price wins. As government agencies and certainly the private sector shift toward a design-build model where they can factor in other things other than price, that's when a brand really does play a big role. That's a shift for the industry overall, the shift toward the design-build model, and with it, more AEC companies are going to realize that having a strong reputation, a strong brand will help them secure these projects. [00:12:49] Steven: Absolutely. To pivot a little bit, I know we just got over the hump of midterm elections. Still recovering from the onslaught of campaign ads. I guess all the votes haven't even been counted yet and everyone's already shifting to looking to the next election cycle, so it's always something. The AEC industry is always really keeping tabs on what's going on in Washington one way or the other, but the Infrastructure, Investment, and Jobs Act, that was a big deal when the president signed it a year ago this month, last November. I guess I'm curious, over this past year, have we seen that influence marketing in the industry and in this sector in particular? [00:13:30] Michelle: I think that the firms that specialize in these areas and infrastructure are certainly gearing up for it. They know that this work is coming and they've got to be ready. It goes back to not to beat a dead horse, but recruiting and making sure that they've got the right people to do this work because it is, it's going to be a lot of work. I think the smart companies now are gearing up and thinking about how do we build our brand to attract the right people to be able to deliver that work. It's an exciting time for companies that work in that sector because there's going to be a lot of activity.  I think the challenge will be keeping the momentum going. It's easy to get caught up in all that work that's happening and forget that there are down cycles. You've got to keep your foot on the marketing pedal even during when things are really, really busy. Making sure that they don't ignore it whenever they are fulfilling those contracts is going to be important. [00:14:45] Steven: That's a great point. Just because that was signed doesn't mean that that work is just automatically walk in the door, right? [00:14:51] Michelle: Yes. [00:14:52] Steven: I know some people are wondering, "Okay, well, is 2023 going to be a busy year for the industry?" We don't have a crystal ball, but to your point, regardless of what you might be anticipating in terms of investment and the effort putting into marketing and PR efforts, it's just not the time to slow down at least. Is that fair to say? [00:15:15] Michelle: It's an interesting thing— Unfortunately, I've been in this business long enough to where I've gone through many, many cycles of people predicting a recession, and there's always talk about marketing being the first thing that goes during a recession, but the way marketing works right now, you can't stop it. Certainly, you could pull back on some expenditures, absolutely, but especially on a B2B side of things, you've got to be keeping your CRM system up to date. You have to be regularly announcing and talking about projects. You have to be keeping your project descriptions and case studies up to date. You have to show activity. You have to be building that brand. Maybe you pull back on some more of the nice-to-haves or campaigns trying to get into new markets, but other than that, if you pull back on those when you're in a much worse place, when you're ready to spend the money again and really you're going to end up spending more money than needed. You're really damaging your brand in the long run because there's just so much catch up that you'll have to do. I liken it to you're regularly telling the story of your business, and if you just stop telling that story, especially in the online world, it can create a lot of negative associations with your brand that you don't want to happen. Pushing that pedal and moving forward is the right thing to do in a recession, if it hits. Certain construction sectors tend to be pretty recession-proof. I certainly don't think our infrastructure clients are going to feel any pullback. That's really the lesson. I know it sounds self-serving coming from a marketer, but it's the truth. Marketing's not one of those things that you want to start when you need it because it takes so long, it's a long-term game. You can't say, "Oh, I suddenly need business, let's do this." You might not see the results of your marketing efforts for a year, so you can't wait until you need it to start it. [00:17:34] Steven: To your point, if you're not telling your story regularly, that gap, that silence also speaks in its own right. It's also an opportunity for other folks to tell your story indirectly or not if you're not the one doing it. [00:17:50] Michelle: Right. Yes, absolutely. [00:17:52] Steven: No, I love that.  You did your fair share of traveling this year, business and pleasure, but a lot of that I know is attending and speaking at various industry conferences and events, as you usually do. I know those can oftentimes, especially now folks coming back together in person and networking, it could be a place where you get a lot of ideas and see maybe what's new, what's next. I'm curious, anything you picked up along the way that AEC leaders should keep top of mind? What are the most valuable insights? [00:18:23] Michelle: I went to a conference where culture was the focus, and I thought that was really interesting. Again, more conservative industries talking about things that you wouldn't anticipate them talking about. I can see how culture is an important topic for AEC. Again, going back to the recruiting, how do you differentiate your workplace from another workplace? Culture really is that. Marketers, when you think about a lot of the conference I was talking about, how does marketing impact culture? I think marketing is tasked with, one, not only helping to define what that is but communicating that culture. Culture's often set from the top down, but marketing's role is really how do we communicate and showcase what that culture is? Certainly, internal communications can help that. Especially AEC, companies they have a workforce that's highly distributed. You've got field employees who aren't glued to a computer screen like us office people, so it becomes a challenge to communicate to those audiences, and that's a really important factor in retaining your workforce. The other thing I think we've noticed too is companies being more willing to, in this competitive labor market, being more willing to showcase their employees online. I'm sure we both remember years ago when we'd say, "Oh, let's put this employee up for an award," or we'd suggest these things and we get, "We don't want anyone tapping in and stealing our employees." There's a realization that that cat is out of the bag. LinkedIn exists, and really, by showcasing your employees, one, you're making them feel great about themselves. It's a way of giving them feedback and showing that you're proud of them. Two, it helps show other people looking from the outside the kind of people that work here and the way this company treats their employees, which is to showcase them and to talk about how great they are. In the digital environment, people want to see other people. You don't want to be this faceless brand. The more companies can showcase their people on social and on their website and put them up for rewards, the more people associate you with actual human beings, which is what really people relate to and want to do business with. [00:21:01] Steven: That's a great point. I know sometimes I've heard workplace culture is so much bigger than just marketing, it's really a team effort. I think to a degree, that is true, it goes beyond just marketing, but I've also heard folks say, "Oh, this is such a great place to work. We have such a great family-oriented culture," but you're talking about telling that story. That may be true, but if no one knows that, then how far is that really going to take you, especially in that recruiting conversation? [00:21:33] Michelle: Exactly. [00:21:34] Steven: That's a great point.  I guess 2023, it's here, it's upon us. Looking ahead and gearing up for the New Year resolutions, all that good stuff, what's one thing, or maybe a couple of things that in-house marketers that AEC firms should be doing right now to prepare for 2023? [00:21:56] Michelle: If I were in-house at an AEC company, I would be looking at ways to streamline all the many collateral needs that an AEC firm needs any time. After working with in-house marketers for so long, I know that they can get just pulled into this endless cycle of churning out materials, so project descriptions, team resumes, qualifications packages, proposals. As I've worked more in this industry, I've found providers that have found ways to really stream like that.  I just did a podcast interview with a gentleman who runs a company called NK Interactive and they've really developed a proprietary system. They call it a single Source of Truth, where all information is held in one place, but it can be repurposed very quickly and easily. Anytime they update a project on the website, they can pull a project one sheet or all those images are there, the video is in that one spot. It's really thought out to meet the needs of AEC because I know that AEC marketers end up becoming InDesign graphics specialists who never went to school to be an InDesign designer. That's because these AEC firms are having to constantly submit proposals and qualification packages and they need details on projects. It's very hard to keep track. If you don't have a CRM system built for AEC, I would be getting one now. You'd be surprised at the amount of really large companies that don't, that none of that information is collected and in one place. It really slows down and makes marketing very inefficient. Thinking through that process, even though it takes a while to really think through, "How am I going to collect all this project information and this team information and get it in one place and have a process for updating it?” It's incredibly important and will make their life a lot better. That would be the number one thing I would do. [00:24:07] Steven: That is great advice, Michelle and I know there's probably numerous things, but that one is a big one, especially if you're looking at budget planning and whatnot. To your point, being organized and having those things lined up and ready to go is going to make the whole process throughout the year a lot more efficient, whether you're working with an in-house team or an agency that's outside the company. I appreciate you sharing those insights and a little bit about what you've been seeing and what we're looking forward to. [00:24:34] Michelle: Yes, it was fun to have you on as my interviewer. I'll do our normal wrap-up. That's a wrap for our show today and thank you for joining me and for coming on Spill The Ink. [00:24:47] Steven: Of course. Thanks so much, Michelle. Take care. [music] [00:24:52] Closing: Thanks for listening to Spill The Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes. [music]

An architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firm’s website is its most valuable marketing asset — but its utility can be stretched even further with the right approach. Your website can be transformed into a state-of-the-art tool that both empowers B2B buyers to make decisions based on your portfolio and creates automated efficiencies for your business. Scott Jacques is the founder of NK Interactive, a digital agency that designs websites and custom digital tools that solve complex sales and marketing problems for clients in the commercial construction sector. His team transforms client websites using a “single source of truth” approach to streamline internal data management while showcasing robust project portfolios. In this episode of Spill the Ink, Michelle Calcote King and Scott Jacques discuss best practices and considerations for website design in the AEC sector, how firms can build functionality into their websites to meet a range of needs, website development and design trends influencing B2B buyers, and more. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn What are the unique website needs of an AEC firm? How important is web presence to AEC buyers? What information and content should be included on your website? What is the “single source of truth” approach? How can AEC firms integrate digital tools into their websites to facilitate firm-wide content management? What website development and design trends are influencing the AEC sector? How often should a firm update its websites? About our featured guest Scott is the Founder and Principal of NK Interactive, a San Francisco-based digital consultancy with decades of strategic, creative and technical expertise. Their clients are forward-thinking businesses in the commercial construction sector consisting of general contractors and specialty contractors. A representative sampling of past and present clients include Rosendin Electric, W.E. O’Neil Construction, DPR Construction, Level 10 Construction, Build Group, Cupertino Electric (CEI), Nibbi Brothers, BCCI Builders, XL Construction, ISEC Inc., and the Associated General Contractors of California. Typical client engagements cover the range of transformative websites to the design and development of custom digital tools supporting marketing and business development teams (collateral automation, single source of truth repository for projects and resumes, qualifications/proposal builders, and capabilities presentation builders). Resources mentioned in this episode Check out NK Interactive Follow NK Interactive on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Scott Jacques on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today.

Many lawyers spend a lifetime building their legal practices into thriving businesses with an abundance of clients. While your day-to-day grind is vital to sustaining operations, it’s also essential to have a strong strategic plan in place to secure your law firm’s future. Your firm’s strategic plan is the blueprint not only for when challenges and crises arise, but it’s also the roadmap attorneys are referencing for guidance on how to succeed and grow in the firm. How should attorneys approach the strategic planning process for the best results? In this episode of Spill the Ink, Michelle Calcote King interviews Wendy Merrill, the Director of Strategic Consulting at Affinity Consulting Group. Wendy shares her experience working with law firms to develop strategic plans in the post-pandemic world, insight into what areas firms should prioritize during their strategic planning process, and what she sees attorneys commonly do wrong. They also discuss how technology can help — or hurt — a firm’s ability to adapt to challenges. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Why should law firms care about strategic planning, regardless of their size? What factors and market forces are shaping priorities during strategic planning? How can law firms address employee retention during the strategic planning process? What common mistakes should firms avoid throughout the strategic planning process? How is technology impacting firms and what role does it play in strategic planning discussions? How does having a strategic business plan help firms when crisis strikes? About our featured guest Over the last 10 years, Wendy Merrill has helped thousands of attorneys and their firms to dramatically improve their origination and realization rates, practice management, business development and leadership skills. As Affinity Consulting’s Director of Strategic Consulting, Wendy helps law firms with strategic planning, executive retreat facilitation, growth strategy, marketing planning, partner development, succession planning, and best practices for improving profitability.  Prior to joining the Affinity team, Wendy served as part of a turnaround executive team at DRI (the largest civil defense bar association) facilitating the refresh of the 62-year-old organization. As part of her commitment to facilitating necessary change in the legal space, Wendy authored her first book, Path to Impact: The Rising Leaders’ Guide to Growing Smart, in 2019. Her favorite part of her role is helping professionals recognize and quantify their value, and to think and do bigger. Wendy lives in Monkton, Maryland, with her husband, three children, two dogs, and her retired racehorse. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Affinity Consulting Group Follow Affinity Consulting Group on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn Connect with Wendy Merrill on LinkedIn Read Path to Impact: The Rising Leaders’ Guide to Growing Smart Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript Wendy Merrill [00:00] Even if you’re really busy and you’ve got a lot of pressure on you to bill, carve time out and look at your business development. And you have to understand that while you may bill $400 an hour to a client, your business development is actually worth exponentially more. It’s not a waste of time just because you can’t bill it to a client. You’ve got to carve it out and you have to commit to it. [MUSIC AND INTRODUCTION] [00:22] Michelle Calcote King [00:43] Hi everyone! I’m Michelle Calcote King, your host, and the Principal and President of Reputation Ink. We’re a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and professional services firms. To learn more about us go to www.rep-ink.com.  As a business owner, you’re constantly eyeing growth opportunities and thinking through what you can do best to position your business for success. Well — like it or not — a law firm is a business and if you don’t have a clear vision for the future with measurable markers of success, you’re essentially just treading water. The strategic planning process is a crucial component to securing your practice. But, how should you go about it? To talk about this topic, I’ve invited Wendy Merrill to be on today’s episode. Wendy is the Director of Strategic Consulting for Affinity Consulting Group where she helps law firms with strategic planning for growth and improving profitability. She’s a published author, and a seasoned business developer and marketer. I’m really excited to have you on the show! Welcome! Wendy Merrill [1:45] Hey! Great to see you. Michelle Calcote King [1:47] Wendy and I know each other well. I gave that very brief intro but if you wouldn’t mind giving us a little bit more about your background. Tell us about your book and your services at Affinity. Wendy Merrill [2:01] Sure. So many questions; so many things to talk about. I have been, I’d say, immersed in the legal space for over 12 years as a business development strategist, growth strategist; and also helping firms with their retention needs, their professional development needs, and all sorts of really fun and exciting things. Helping law firms think more like businesses, which I love to do. A couple of years ago, I wrote a book that was specifically written for rising leaders. So, those that are a little bit newer, a little bit younger, in the professional services space — especially law firms — who have aspirations to be impactful, really want to make a difference, want to take on leadership positions, and want to grow their firms but aren't really sure how to start. So that's what it was designed for. So that's called Path to Impact: The Rising Leaders’ Guide to Growing Smart.  Michelle Calcote King [3:07] Awesome. Let’s talk about strategic planning. Why should firms care about it, regardless of whether they’re small or large? Tell me about that. Wendy Merrill [3:17] I want to put it in the post-COVID perspective. I think that’s probably most relevant now because COVID, you know, it continues. We’d like to think we’re in post-COVID, but it’s been terrible. But, there have been a few silver linings, dare I say. I think one of the silver linings for the legal industry in particular is it forced law firms to start thinking about their business model and thinking strategically about where they want to go. When the pandemic happened, pretty much overnight, suddenly firms were faced with the fact that maybe their technology support was not where it needed to be; they didn’t have enough laptops to allow for remote work, for example; they were faced with having to figure out a whole new culture. How are they going to service clients? How are they going to retain good people? All sorts of things. What I have found is the last couple of years, law firms are really starting to think about, “Well, why don’t we really be more strategic about how we grow? Why don’t we think a little bit more analytically about what does growth mean for us? What kind of clients do we want? What kind of practice areas do we want to specialize in? How do we want to grow our team? What kind of people are our future leaders? And set up goals, objectives, KPIs?” Things that are kind of new to the legal space; things that businesses have been doing for years and now law firms are doing. Michelle Calcote King [4:48] Yeah. There are a lot of market forces. Obviously, you mentioned COVID, but there are other market forces that are really pushing law firms to change old ways. There are ALSPs, client demands and that kind of things. Are you seeing that that’s top of mind for many firms? Wendy Merrill [5:09] You know what’s top of mind? People. Holding on to people. Michelle Calcote King [5:16] Oh, interesting. Wendy Merrill [5:17] There are certainly pressures like you said, the non-lawyer-owned legal services provider. Certainly mergers of larger firms and pricing pressures. All sorts of things. Michelle Calcote King [5:32] It’s an interesting point you make about people because we read about it and there’s all the news about the “Great Recession.” tell me what you’re hearing from firms about that. Wendy Merrill [5:42] As I mentioned, people has become the biggest focus for law firms in that certainly the great resignation affects them; this quiet quitting — which is a really strange concept. They can't really take it for granted anymore that they’re going to have people to do all the work. For example, most of the law firms I’ve spoke to in the last couple of years had an influx of business. They were very profitable and did very well, but their biggest problem is they have more work than they can handle because they are struggling with retaining associates for a number of reasons. They’re also struggling to hire lateral hires. The goal of every firm is to bring over attorneys with experience that have a nice book of business they can meld into their firm.  It’s been a big struggle for firms and it’s been, I think, sometimes a distraction from, “Okay, how do we go out and get more clients? Well, we’re not really thinking about that. We’re really more worried about how are we going to service the clients we have?” So it’s not just employee retention. It’s also client retention. Michelle Calcote King [6:55] In the strategic planning process, how can firms address the people factor? How do they go about that in doing their strategic planning? Wendy Merrill [7:07] A couple of keywords come to mind: trust, transparency and transition.  Trust is the most important thing. If a firm is really serious about thinking about how they want to grow, and thinking very strategically about putting one foot in front of the other, they have to make sure that everyone trusts each other. There has to be very deep trust among the partners, which sometimes can be a struggle. There also has to be trust among the associates, the non-partner lawyers who are looking to the partners to be leaders in the firm. They have to make sure they have their best interests in mind. Also staff. I mean, they make the magic happen. There are a lot of administrative folks that sometimes struggle with trusting the direction that the organization is going in; that the lawyers really are going to appreciate the work that they do, and vice versa. So trust is really important. Transparency, as I mentioned, is something that has not always been a theme in law firms. I would say that the legal business has probably not been known as one of the most transparent industries. But that is changing. The reason for that is because the younger generation, the next gen wants to know what’s going on. Not only do they want to know what’s going on, but if law firms really want their people to be engaged and buy in to what they do, understand profitability and contribute to the firm, they need to understand how the sausage is made. They need to understand, how do we make money? How do we do things? Many lawyers really just don’t know. They’re very focused on what they need to do on a day-to-day basis, which doesn’t exactly support the cause, if you will, and really helping the whole firm work together in lockstep towards a common goal. The third keyword is transition. Talking really about succession planning. That is a big, big, big, big challenge I think in a lot of businesses, but I just happen to see it a lot in the legal space. Many firms intellectually understand that they need to think about it, but it’s very emotional, Michelle. Very, very emotional because for so many people who have built these firms, it’s their baby. They’ve been doing this forever. It’s their identity and the thought of having to step away from that is scary to a lot of folks, quite frankly. You know, “Well what am I going to do next? What does my next chapter look like?” And it’s also scary because when you retire there’s a finite amount of money that will come in. So, it’s not like, “Oh, well, I’ll just keep earning in perpetuity.” So, those are two roadblocks I think sometimes to the succession process. But, succession planning is so important not only for the future growth of the firm, but also for the security for the rest of the firm. Meaning the other lawyers and staff who want to know what it’s going to be. They want to know what’s going t happen and they want to know what their future looks like. They need to understand what kind of upcoming transition there might be, what it looks like, what leadership change, etcetera. Michelle Calcote King [10:28]  I've always found that fascinating about the legal industry how so many lawyers really work for a much longer time than I see in other professions. Wendy Merrill [10:40] I mean there’s the old saying that someone’s going to die at their desk. It sounds kind of funny and kind of morbid at the same time, but it’s true. It’s the kind of profession  that you can and you can. You can hold on to a few clients and do work at the end of the day, which is fine. But that person really shouldn’t be leading the firm. They should perhaps move into an off-council position or something like that where they can still contribute but they relinquish a lot of their decision-making and control to the next generation. Michelle Calcote King [11:11] What are some of the ways you see law firms getting strategic planning wrong? What are some common mistakes that firms are making? Wendy Merrill [11:23] I think the biggest mistake — and it’s not just law firms, it’s a lot of businesses that engage in the process — is they focus more on the plan, not the process. They will invest a lot of time and energy and money and emotion into going through the strategic planning process. They get a document that’s like yay thick, it goes on the shelf and then that’s it. It happens a lot. So we focus a lot more on the process itself. So, it’s not just about the plan, but how is it a living document? What are strategic objectives? Who is bought in? How do we all work together? And how do we assign tasks and action steps and dates and make sure that the implementation is happening? And that we’re maintaining momentum? It’s very difficult because you’re working with firms where time is of the essence. Let’s just say, time management is probably a struggle for all of us, but also especially for lawyers. Especially for lawyers, when they’re so busy — especially litigators — if they’re so busy and they’re pulled in a million different directions, it’s really hard to commit the time and energy to, “Okay, let’s take the next steps. Let’s move this along.” so, a lot of our clients when they express interest in strategic planning, we want to find out, “Well, how committed are you? Are you serious about the process? Here’s what’s going to be involved.” Then afterward, we try to stay involved to make sure that we’re pushing the ball along in any way that we can to make sure that we are focusing on measurable results. Michelle Calcote King [13:00] Yeah, I could see how that would be a huge part of it because it’s easy to get lost in the day-to-day of just delivering client services and keeping that deadline. We know law firms and the law, in general, is more conservative and slower to adapt to change. How are you seeing how technology is impacting firms? Does it play a role in this strategy discussion? Wendy Merrill [13:35] It definitely does. At Affinity, we do a lot of technology consulting as well and focus on improving processes and systems. Many firms will come to us and say that their people are frustrated for whatever reason. They don’t like the systems they have or they don’t know how to use them. Sometimes it’s the system, but other times it’s the people. What I mean by that is they’re just not properly training, they’re not properly engaged and they don’t understand the capabilities of the particular technology they have, or for whatever reason, they’re just not interested in it. So, it absolutely affects this whole process. I mean, there are people who will be so frustrated and have such low job satisfaction because maybe their impression is that the systems aren’t there, the technology is not there, so they move to another firm where they feel like their needs are better served. But, oftentimes it’s just a matter of understanding what you have. These days you can automate so many processes, but many firms are still relying on kind of like a hodgepodge approach to technology. They’ll have a piece of software over here and a system over there and they’re not talking to each other. So, it requires a lot more steps that aren’t necessarily ones that they need to take.  Technology can be friend or foe, right? I mean these days it’s absolutely essential that you have a really streamlined system, and you know what you’re doing, and you’re able to use it, and everybody’s engaged. But at the same time, it can be really frustrating. I personally use technology all the time and I don’t consider myself a tech person. I get frustrated and I tend towards old-fashioned ways. Sometimes I’ll use it but maybe I don’t use it the best way I should. Fortunately, I get a lot of great training from my company to learn how to improve myself, but that’s not always the case in firms. I think it’s really important. Technology is just a huge component to this whole process because it’s one of the engines to progress. Michelle Calcote King [15:36] Well and it needs to be implemented strategically. I remember someone in the industry telling me — and it wasn’t a law firm they were talking about; they were talking about another small consulting firm — and they said it was always the shiniest new platform and there was almost fatigue of the employees hearing what’s the newest thing they had to learn and figure out. That was fascinating to me because I’ve always seen the opposite where leadership is sluggish to adopt something. But it can be either way. Wendy Merrill [16:10 It can. Also it comes down to the same thing for both it’s if people are not engaged in owning their role and understanding why are we using this system or why did we hire this person, if they don’t understand that, it’s hard for them to understand their role and how important their role is in the overall success of the firm. Michelle Calcote King [16:36] Yeah. How do you see strategic planning and having that plan — and hopefully it isn’t just sitting on the shelf — but having that strategic plan when a crisis hits? We’ve all been through COVID now but I know there are other crises. How have you seen firms weather a crisis or not weather it very well because of having or lack of having a strategic plan? Wendy Merrill [17:06] I’m going to answer that question in sort of a sideways fashion, I suppose. Because of COVID, once upon a time, I think many businesses would say, “Well, what’s the one-year plan? The three-year plan? The five-year plan? The 10 and 20 year plan?” These days I say one to three. We don’t look beyond that because we all know things change. It’s good to say, “Well long term I’d like to do this.” But we also know that we have to be nimble. We have to be prepared for anything to happen and have a backup plan. I think what I’ve seen with firms is, certainly, they’ve invested a lot more in technology, they’ve invested in cloud technology, getting servers out of their offices, which is risky. Also thinking about a creative approach to the workspace because if something happens, like a pandemic or any crisis, if they have a huge lease on a huge office space and something happens, they’re stuck. So many firms are starting to think about what’s a flexible option. Doing hotelling or figuring out if they even need to be in an office. I think that it’s affected the way people are planning for the future. We’re all aware, but i think it’s human nature to sort of say, “Well, let’s just kind of stay in our comfort zone.” And I don’t know how much crisis planning law firms can really do other than what they’re doing right now. I do think it’s also really important to focus on culture. If you don’t have a really strong culture and something happens, your firm will have a very difficult time weathering the crisis. Culture is a newer phenomenon, I think, in terms of thinking of it as this sort of entity. Like, we have to be intentional about it. What is our culture? What is our brand? What do we stand for? Why do we do what we do? How do we care for our people? How do we engage them? That is absolutely vital to the success of any firm and I would say weathering any crisis that may come their way. Michelle Calcote King [19:22] Agreed. It’s interesting because the Legal Marketing Association’s Southeastern Conference, their whole theme is culture this year. I’m looking forward to that. I think especially for on the marketing side, often marketers kind of get thrown these things, you know, if the firm is big enough to have a marketer in-house. They get thrown anything to do this kind of stuff. I think it’s going to be a fascinating discussion. Wendy Merrill [19:51] I’m really happy to hear that they’re doing that because I personally believe that marketing should have the responsibility of being stewards of the culture. And I don’t think a lot of firms properly utilize and really take advantage of the knowledge that their marketing professionals have in creating this culture because it’s really branding. I mean, it’s really the same kind of thing. I’ve also always wondered why HR departments and marketing departments don’t sit next to each other and work together because it’s kind of the same thing. Michelle Calcote King [20:27] It’s becoming one in of the same, absolutely. Well, as recruiting gets more difficult and retention, right? This is how people, you know, through marketing is how they learn what kind of firm this is. Absolutely. So, you have answered this already, but I want to ask it. How do you know if a strategic plan is sort of strong, but also nimble enough to evolve? You mentioned, “Look let’s look one to three years.” Are there other ways to know that, “Look we have a strategic plan, but we’re still going to evolve and react to market changes”? Wendy Merrill [21:08] I think you have to build that in. When you’re talking about the planning process, you have your goals and you have your strategic objectives. Strategic objectives should be broad enough that you can apply it to different things that may come your way. It may be something like, “We want to become the go-to firm in this particular practice area.” Okay. Well, there are a lot of ways you can do that. Maybe you try spending a lot of money on digital marketing. And maybe it doesn’t go so well. Okay, well, let’s go to Plan B. What else can we do? I encourage firms to think about — there are a lot of ways to skin a cat, right? — so, I think that if you have a really strong foundation where you have buy-in from all of the stakeholders, and they all agree, they’re all aligned in what they want and their values, that’s the most important thing because if they’re faced with a crisis or they’re faced with something going sideways or it’s not going as well, everybody should be able to come back up together and say, “Okay, let’s regroup. Remember what we talked about before; remember what's really important to us. This particular tactic isn't working. Let's shift to something else.” So, like anything else, it really comes down to the trust that people have with each other within these firms and making sure that they’re constantly aligned. And by the way, Michelle, that’s not a one-time thing. It’s something that you have to keep reconnecting and reiterating. You have the strategic planning process and you go through this; many firms will have a once-a-year retreat. That’s great, but what’s keeping people connected throughout the year? That’s absolutely imperative. Michelle Calcote King [23:06] How do you help firms do that? How do you help them kind of stay connected to their strategy? Wendy Merrill [23:14] It depends on the firm. I like to definitely set up some kind of a structure. For example, I recently worked with a law firm that was having — I can’t remember how often they were meeting as partners; maybe quarterly; maybe twice a year. They had so many changes going on, I said, “You all really should be meeting monthly.” So, we had a retreat and it was hugely successful. Everyone was thrilled to come together and share. I said, “Okay we have to keep this momentum going.” So, one of the things that we’re doing is we’re having monthly partner meetings. Everybody’s going to come together. One month you’re together in perso and the other month you’re virtual. To make it easier, here’s the agenda you’re going to follow every single month. It’s going to be a revolving facilitator, so somebody gets assigned each particular month and make sure they’re on task, and then there’s going to be follow-up. And it's worked really, really, really well. It's made a huge difference for this particular firm.  Where we try to help is — I mean, certainly you can lead a horse to water, right? But, we try to share ideas about, “Okay, well, here’s some structure you can put to this; and if you lay it out and it makes sense to people.” Also it’s helpful when you’re in the room with them and you whip out the calendar and you say, “Okay, so let’s get it done.” It really makes a difference. Michelle Calcote King [24:32] That’s great. What else haven’t I asked you that you think law firms need to be thinking about from a strategic planning process? Is there anything that we haven’t touched on? Wendy Merrill [24:45] We can talk about growth strategy and business development. Many, many firms that I mentioned earlier are very fortunate and have a ton of work right now. So, when we’re all really busy and things are good and we’ve got a lot of clients, we go, “Oh, we don’t have to market. We don’t have to go out and shake hands and kiss babies.” But I cannot underline this enough. When you’re really busy is exactly when you need to be investing because the other shoe always drops. This recession that keeps kind of coming up, you don’t know what’s going to happen. And, it’s going to sound silly, but when you’re busy and you’re successful, you exude confidence and positivity and people want to work with you. Michelle Calcote King [25:34] Absolutely. Wendy Merrill [25:35] When you’re not busy, you will absolutely look and seem desperate. It’s happened to all of us. As silly as that sounds, it’s true. So, I’d say, even if you’re really busy and you’ve got a lot of pressure on you to bill, carve time out and look at your business development. And you have to understand that while you may bill $400 an hour to a client, your business development is actually worth exponentially more. It’s not a waste of time just because you can’t bill it to a client. You’ve got to carve it out and you have to commit to it. Michelle Calcote King [26:09] Yeah. I could not agree with that more. It’s something that I say often about business development, marketing or long-term initiatives. You can’t just throw a campaign out there and generate business, especially in professional services. Wendy Merrill [26:28] It’s building habits. It’s not just, “Well, let’s do this initiative. Let’s do a PR campaign.” It has to be woven into the very fabric of the firm. It’s building the muscle. It’s saying, “Here’s what we’re going to do.” You just have to build this habit and know that if you’re responsible for origination, business development is just part of what you do on a daily basis, on a weekly basis. It’s just what’s expected of you as an attorney.  I will add one more thing. Defining expectations, which is a really big deal, I think many firms do not have path to partnership. It’s very subjective. Maybe it’s not written down or if it is, it’s still very sort of vague. This is a struggle I’ve seen where younger attorneys want to have a roadmap. They want to know what’s expected of them so that they can measure themselves and that they can aspire to goals. But, it’s also important for the firm to define what is an “ABC” lawyer. What do we expect of our attorneys? What is the approach to billing? What is the approach to client service? What is the approach to culture? Leadership? If it’s not defined, then how can anyone be judged by it? How can anybody be measured? This is something that I also reiterate a lot with the firms they work with.  Michelle Calcote King [27:59] That’s really important. Thank you so much. This was a fantastic overview of the strategic planning process for law firms and I can imagine it’s top of mind with many firms. We’ve been talking to Wendy Merrill of Affinity Consulting. Tell our listeners how to get in touch with you, Wendy. Wendy Merrill [28:18] Sure. My email is wmerrill@affinityconsulting.com. Definitely connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m very, very active on LinkedIn and would love to connect with all of you. Feel free to reach out with a question and an idea. I love to collaborate and I love to learn, so I would be happy to speak to any of your listeners. Michelle Calcote King [28:44] Awesome, thank you so much. Wendy Merrill [28:46] Thank you.

Your law firm’s marketing strategy is tailored to resonate with the types of clients who you want to reach and attract. However, an award-worthy marketing strategy for an American audience can fall short when simply translated verbatim to another language.  Achieving a successful multicultural and/or multilingual campaign requires extra legwork and a different approach to ensure your messaging hits its intended mark. Otherwise, you stand to quickly lose potential clients. In honor of Hispanic Heritage Month, Michelle Calcote King talks with Liel Levy, the co-founder of Nanato Media and award-winning author of Beyond Se Habla Español: How Lawyers Win The Hispanic Market. They discuss best practices for marketing to a Hispanic audience, the common mistakes firms and attorneys make when they’re first starting out, and what lawyers can do to keep these new clients once they have them. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Why marketing to Hispanic and Latino clients is different from marketing to a U.S.-born or English-speaking client Why translating messaging verbatim from English to Spanish is an ineffective strategy Hispanic consumer habits Best practices for connecting with potential Hispanic clients Common mistakes law firms make when working with non-native English speakers About our featured guest Liel Levy is the award-winning author of the Amazon bestseller Beyond Se Habla Español: How Lawyers Win The Hispanic Market and co-founder of Nanato Media, an Austin-based marketing agency focused on helping law firms dominate their Hispanic market. He is also the producer and co-host of "In Camera Podcast: Private Legal Marketing Conversations" and has been published by multiple legal publications of note, including Law.com, Law360, Marketing the Law Firm and ABA Journal. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Nanato Media Follow Nanato Media on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Read Beyond Se Habla Español: How Lawyers Win The Hispanic Market Connect with Liel Levy on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn WhatsApp Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript Liel Levy [00:00] You want to make sure that you’re digging a little deeper and see what things are important to their culture. What do they value? Is it family? Is it sports? Is it food? And these are just some of the very, very upper layers. You want to dig deeper down there and really showcase things that matter to the community. [MUSIC AND INTRODUCTION] [00:20] Michelle Calcote King [00:40] Hi everyone! I’m Michelle Calcote King, your host, and the Principal and President of Reputation Ink. We’re a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and professional services firms. To learn more about us go to www.rep-ink.com.  We’re now in Hispanic Heritage Month. It’s a celebration of the histories, cultures and achievements of Hispanics and Latinos. In honor of Hispanic Heritage Month, for this episode, I’m going to talk to an old friend of ours about how law firms can effectively market to their Hispanic population — and also how they can get it wrong. My guest today is Liel Levy. He’s the award-winning author of — and this is going to show how bad my Spanish skills are — Beyond Se Habla Español: How Lawyers Win The Hispanic Market and he’s also the co-founder of Nanato Media, a marketing agency focused on helping law firms dominate their Hispanic market. Liel, welcome and thank you for sitting down to chat today. Liel Levy [01:44] That actually sounded great. That’s really good pronunciation. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a real pleasure to be here and to have an opportunity to chat with you again. Michelle Calcote King  [01:54] To start, tell me a little bit about Nanato Media, what you guys do and why you founded the agency. Liel Levy [02:03] Nanato Media, we’re a multicultural marketing agency. We’re bilingual and our goal is to help particularly law firms because the go-to law firms for their local Hispanic market. How Nanato Media came to exist was basically as a solution to a need that's been there for decades.  Latinos have been part of U.S. culture and society since the beginning of the existence of the nation. Before lawyers, they used to primarily rely on strategies that were run through lead generation companies where they would relegate their marketing efforts for the Hispanic community to other parties that did not necessarily market their own brand — the law firm brand. Many times, it wasn’t really something that they were specialized in. So, obviously, this generated frustration, particularly amongst law firms that deeply care about the community and want to have the same quality of marketing that they have for their English-speaking market for their Spanish-speaking market. For us, it became very clear that there was a massive gap there. And this is what we’d been doing pretty much all of our professional marketing careers. It was a very natural pivot for us to move from doing the marketing from a big lead generation organization that was focused on the Hispanic market to doing it for law firms that are interested in building their own brand — and we’re talking here about consumer-focused law firms. Michelle Calcote King [3:53] Yes. So, we know each other because we worked together to help publicize your book. And it’s not just translating materials to Spanish, right? Tell me a little bit more about how marketing to the Hispanic and Latino population is different. Why does it go beyond translating materials into the Spanish language? Liel Levy [4:25] Sure. Translation as a baseline doesn’t work. The way that you actually create and compose sentences and paragraphs, and organize ideas in one language is not the same as in Spanish. Also, for those who are Spanish speakers, they probably already notice that in Spanish we speak and use more words than we use in English. What happens when you’re using translation as your main method of creating messaging in Spanish is that your message ends up getting lost in translation, literally. So it’s not effective. It doesn’t fulfill the purpose of actually helping you communicate to your audience exactly what you want them to know. Beyond that, it’s ineffective because your message that was created thinking of the English speaker in mind is not necessarily one that’s going to resonate with your Latino speaker. It’s not just about the language being really compatible — the words that you’re using in English being compatible with the Spanish language. It’s more about, is what you’re saying to your English speaker potential client the same that you would want to say to your Latino speaker? You may say, “Well, it is,” but at the end of the day, are you customizing or personalizing these words to be even more relevant to the Latino speaker? Are you actually showing them through the messaging that you are seeing them, that you’re hearing them, and that you care about them? If you’re not, then that’s where you’re missing a big opportunity. Because here’s the thing about being a “minority” — and I say minority in brackets here because Latinos are by no means minorities in markets like Texas and California. Just last week, a new census report showcased that in Texas the Latino population is now the largest demographic group, so more Latinos than white non-Hispanics, and that same milestone was achieved a couple of years ago in California. So, when you’re using the term “minority” for Latinos, in some areas and states — some of the biggest states in the United States — it’s no longer applicable. But, generally speaking, when you’re a minority, the general message of a brand doesn’t necessarily feel that it was created for you. Michelle Calcote King [7:00] Can you give me some examples of those differences? I know by even asking for examples that is sort of pigeonholing it, but can you give me some examples of what some of those differences might be for people? Liel Levy [7:15] Absolutely. Just the idea — especially talking about law firms — when you are putting yourself in the mindset of the Latino, especially the one that is Spanish-speaking, if Spanish is their mother tongue, then chances are that they actually immigrated recently within the last ten or maybe twenty years to the United States. What’s on their mind? What are the concerns that they have? How do they think about things? Where do they live? What do they have access to and do not have access to? When you actually start talking and seeing things from a mindset that they can understand, then you’re going to become more relevant to them. Language is a fantastic way of doing it where you’re targeting an audience that is likely to be Spanish speakers first. But, when you’re looking at U.S.-born Latinos, you want to make sure that you’re digging a little deeper and see what things are important to their culture. What do they value? Is it family? Is it sports? Is it food? And these are just some of the very, very upper layers. You want to dig deeper down there and really showcase things that matter to the community. That’s why we always think that the best marketing you can do for yourself is actually getting involved in the community, doing community outreach. As you’re getting involved in the community, showcase the stories of what’s happening there in the community because nothing will speak better about your brand and your law firm than showcasing the people you’re having an impact on. I think there are tons of examples where we see law firms doing this, and their results are astonishing. Michelle Calcote King [9:06] Wow. That makes a lot of sense. It’s understanding the consumer that you’re targeting, what they care about, their concerns and their needs. Are there differences between the kinds of technology Latinos use or how they search for services like law firms? Are there differences in that as well? Liel Levy [9:31] Yeah. This is already widely known, but for those who may just be discovering the Hispanic market, Latinos are considered mobile power users. What does this mean? That they heavily rely on their mobile devices for all kinds of connectivity. This is for infotainment; they watch and listen to basically everything you would stream traditionally on a TV, but on their mobile devices. Or some of the things you would do on a desktop, they would do on their mobile devices.  There are actually a couple of things here that are important to point out. They really like to search on Google. 93% of Latinos in the U.S. have expressed that Google is their preferred search engine of choice. They go there to find answers when they don’t know the answers to things.  The other thing that is also very interesting about the U.S. Latino consumer is that they're 20% more likely to interact with ads. Whereas you may think that every time that I do complete a search query on Google and I get to the search results page, I skip through the ads because I don’t care about ads. Well, when you’re looking at your Latino consumer, that’s not the case.  Most of the time they actually do pay attention to the ads.  Why is that? Well, it's because there's not a lot of great content on your organic search results in Spanish for potentially what they're searching for, especially if they're searching in Spanish. So, ads tend to be more thoughtful. Not just that, but especially when you’re looking at law firms, it also offers a more viable and faster solution to what they need. The other thing about mobile users is that you’re not going to spend as much time on the device as you would on a desktop. Desktop has a bigger screen and is a different experience; you can spend more time researching, reading reviews and maybe watching videos or doing comparisons. On a mobile device, you’re probably not going to want to read through the long text that is on practice area pages and that sort of thing. You’re also more likely to initiate a conversation, and it will most likely be a phone call faster. Latinos most likely need a fast answer to try to troubleshoot the problem that they’re going through. That’s kind of a lot about Latino consumer behavior there. Michelle Calcote King [12:10] That’s fascinating about the ads, but it makes complete sense that once they get to the organic search results, they’ve learned there’s not a lot there that really resonates because it’s more built for an English-speaking audience. Liel Levy [12:25] What you encounter a lot on the organic search results is — you’d be surprised how many times pages that are not even in Spanish get to rank, even on the first page of search results. But, even the content that is in Spanish oftentimes is not really that great. It’s literal translations of pages that were first created in English. They just have terrible user experience (UX) and user design (UI). To scroll on them is not really pleasant. Ads are a more efficient way of finding quick and fast information about what they’re looking for and allowing them to take the next step in a way that doesn’t require a lot of effort from their end. Michelle Calcote King [13:19] Interesting. Once you’ve captured their attention through the ads, is there anything different about that funnel they’re going through that is different from an English-speaking audience? Do they interact with chat boxes? Is there anything different at that stage of the funnel? Liel Levy [13:37] I love that question because yes, it’s very different. It really is gonna depend a lot on your practice area. We’ve noticed that, for instance, personal injury phone calls will be very popular. However, other types of law, for instance, immigration, the users are going to be more open to having conversations via messaging. I will tell you definitely that your best option to connect with the Hispanic market through text is not through live chat, but it’s actually by enabling business WhatsApp on your website as a way of being able to start conversations with them via text. It’s just from a user-experience standpoint much better. The conversation opens up on your WhatsApp app, right? And there are two very powerful things that are actually achieved when you do that. Number one, you already become a contact on the WhatsApp app. Now you’re a lawyer that sits there and you’re going to be a conversation on their WhatsApp until they consciously decide to remove you. The other thing is that it allows them to get back to you whenever it’s convenient to them without necessarily having to go back through the whole journey of searching for you on Google, clicking on your site and getting to the live chat session. From a user-experience point, it’s better, but Latinos love WhatsApp. They use it a lot. Michelle Calcote King [15:13] It seems like most of the world uses WhatsApp except for the U.S. Liel Levy [15:17] And it all goes back to the fact that — you need to remember that they're on their mobile devices. WhatsApp is an app that was built for mobile. So, it doesn't get much better than that. Michelle Calcote King [15:29] Got it. Once lawyers in these consumer law firms have Latino clients, do you see any mistakes firms are making or challenges they have in terms of actually working with these clients? Liel Levy [15:48] Yes. One of them is investing in marketing and putting efforts in place to generate Latino clients, but then not having Latino experience thought up. What happens there is that it basically generates frustration from the client standpoint. They are calling call centers where there are no Spanish speakers who can actually help them. They’re being sent contracts that are not in a language that they can understand. They also encounter that the intake agent was able to speak Spanish, but then there is no other person inside the law firm when it comes to communicating with the legal team that actually speaks Spanish. All of those things are roadblocks. If you fail at any of those points, you’re taking a risk of losing the client. That’s one of the issues that we see law firms face oftentimes is that they do want to enter the Hispanic market, but they’re not structured internally to be able to provide a good quality experience for their Spanish-speaking clients. Michelle Calcote King [17:11] That’s really important, and that’s fantastic that you guys can help these firms with that. It’s not just about capturing the client, it’s making sure that client experience continues. There’s nothing worse than feeling that sort of bait and switch feeling that you’ve been sold to in a certain way and then once you sign on the dotted line you get a different experience. Trust is so important in that attorney relationship. Liel Levy [17:45] Right and that can break if it’s not kept throughout. They may have had an excellent rapport and connection with the intake agent, but if that intake agent is not going to be leading the case beyond that point, then if whoever takes the role from intake onwards is not connecting with the client in that way, then it’s ineffective. The other thing I would say is the lack of awareness about what could be the areas of concern to Latino clients. What we know from our experiences is that oftentimes Latinos need a lot of handholding when it comes down to understanding how cases are built and what needs to happen in order for a case to run its path. If you’re not training your staff and you’re not generating awareness about how to educate your clients — even after they’ve already reached out to you, they don’t know everything that you do — assuming that they do is a huge mistake that may leave you without being able to convert really valuable leads into clients. Michelle Calcote King [19:16] I like that y’all offer that expertise. Let’s talk a little bit about your book. A lot of what we’ve talked about is what people will learn in the book, but if a law firm is looking to more effectively market to the Latino population, what are they going to take away from your book? Liel Levy [19:44 I think the most important thing that anyone picking up the book, especially lawyers, will get out of it is that it's gonna demystify a lot of the misconceptions that are around Latinos.  Most of the time when people think about Latinos, they say, “Oh, so many nationalities; so much diversity.” We feel that the first thing that someone who's approaching the Latino market should do is not try to categorize Latinos by their country of origin, but more so by the level of acculturation that they have. That’s one of the baselines that the book will give you because once you understand that, you’re going to have a completely different understanding and view of the Latino market.  The other thing I think is very valuable about reading the book is that it’s very easy to get intimidated with the prospect of, “I need to target or create a campaign for a community that I may not necessarily be part of. Where do I start? How do I do it? What steps can I take to prevent making the mistakes that others have made?” I think the book will give you that. It will give you enough of a level of awareness and education so you can at least make good, well-thought decisions about how to approach your Hispanic marketing strategy. Whether you’re going to deploy it on your own with the resources you have in-house, or whether you’re considering bringing a partner to the table to help you out, it’s going to give you enough education and awareness so that you’re not just sitting at the table listening to what others are telling you, but are actually actively partaking in the decision-making in a way that you’re looking after the interest of your law firms and clients. I oftentimes see lawyers completely lost when it comes down to being able to talk and make decisions about their Hispanic marketing strategy. Michelle Calcote King [22:04] Yeah. Lawyers are all like small business owners. They go into it because they know the law, not because they’re great marketers or great finance people. So they have to find people like you to help them navigate these things. Liel Levy [22:23] But you’d be surprised, Michelle. Even those big marketing lawyers who we are seeing all the time on TV and in the news and on billboards and such; they may have very good and strong strategies in English, but when you have conversations with them about their Spanish marketing efforts, they’re completely lost. I’ve had a lot of conversations with several of them and I think it’s really interesting to see how much of a vulnerable position they feel like they’re in when it comes down to it. So, I think that’s one of the things that the book does is takes you away from that position. Michelle Calcote King [23:03] This is great and it’s such a good conversation for us to mark Hispanic Heritage Month. I really appreciate you being here. We’ve been talking to Liel Levy of Nanato Media. Liel, tell our listeners where they can find the book and learn more about you guys. Liel Levy [23:22] Yeah! You can get the book as easily as Googling it in Amazon, but I understand that Beyond Se Habla Español: How Lawyers Win The Hispanic Market may not be something that everyone can easily spell. Hopefully, by either searching for me, Liel Levy on Google or Nanato Media, which is the name of our agency, you’re going to be able to easily find your way to a place where you can order the book. Or, if you’re interested in connecting with me or with anyone on our team, we’ll always be happy to talk to lawyers, marketing professionals or anyone who is interested in connecting with their Hispanic audience. Michelle Calcote King [24:04] Great. And we will post the links as well when we publish the podcast. All right. Well, thank you so much. Liel Levy [24:11] It’s my pleasure. Thank you very much, Michelle.

Howie Ferguson is an experienced leader and is the Executive Director of the Construction Owners Association of America. The national association consists of public and private owners who manage facilities development and capital improvement projects. The organization supports owners' success in the design and construction of buildings and facilities through education, information and collaboration. Howie has a thorough background in civil engineering, serving over nine years as a commissioned officer in the Civil Engineer Corps of the US Navy. He spent roughly 28 years as an institutional owner, including almost two decades as a Project Manager at the University of Florida where he oversaw their planning, design and construction. In this episode: AEC firms have a particular need for high standards of quality. So many small details come into play during construction, any of which can have catastrophic effects on the build. Furthermore, those potential defects can directly correlate to the longevity and even safety of the finished product. This creates a demand for higher standards and a sense of trust. For the Construction Owners Association of America, this is exactly what they aim to do. They utilize education and collaboration across their members to improve the quality of the building process. Howie Ferguson, the Executive Director of the association, has upheld these standards in his own work and as director. So what lessons can be learned by other AEC firms? Michelle Calcote King has an informative interview with Howie Ferguson, the Executive Director of the Construction Owners Association of America, to discuss the association and the principles behind their work. They go through the organization’s background and how they use education to raise standards. They also touch on a variety of topics for AEC firms, including procuring clients, the value of authenticity and accountability. Hear all this and more on this episode of the Spill the Ink podcast.