On Humans

Machines allow us to do more work with less effort. They sound like an obviously good thing. But there is a tension here. New gadgets and new technologies - new simple “machines” - have been invented throughout history. But it looks like the living standard of the average person did not change for most of that time. So what happened to all the extra output from new technologies? And how is this relevant to our age of computers, robots, and AI? To discuss these themes, I am joined by MIT professor Daron Acemoglu. Acemoglu is a true legend in his field. In 2015, he was ranked the single most cited economist of the past 10 years. And his most famous book, Why Nations Fail, (co-authored with James Robinson) is known by many students of economics as the only history book they ever had to read. But today’s conversation is not about Why Nations Fail. It is about Acemoglu’s new book, Power and Progress: Our 1000-Year Struggle Over Technology (co-authored with Simon Johnson). In many ways, this is a typical Acemoglu book: it is a doorstopper that uses an array of historical lessons to draw messages for the present. And as before, it asks economists to take democratic politics more seriously. But in other ways, this is quite different from his previous books. For me, it felt much darker – especially in its portrayal of rich countries such as the US. But Acemoglu affirmed to me that he is still an optimist. He even tells me that the reason is related to the theme of this podcast series... I will let him tell you why.We discuss topics such as: Why have so many machines failed to benefit the common folk?  Why things changed for the better in the late 1800s - and why my past guests are wrong about the reasons? Have we started backsliding again?  Does this explain the political turmoil of today - especially in the US? Why Acemoglu is not against technological progress - but has a message to tech leaders  What has his work in economics taught Acemoglu about humanity?____SUPPORT THE SHOWPlease consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program.Visit: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠⁠Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org_____Oded Galor (episodes 12 & 13), Brad DeLong (episode 18) / Josh Ober / Ian Morris / Samuel Bowles / Herbert Gintis /John Hicks / H. J. / Robert Allen / Habakkuk / Joel Mokyr / Elon Musk / Pascual RestrepoOther terms and referencesMalthusian dynamics (of population growth “eating away” any increases in production) Chartists and Luddites (19th Century British political movements)

To complete a trilogy on the anthropology of war, here is episode 8 from the archives. Enjoy! SUPPORT THE SHOW Please consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program. Visit: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org _______ Thomas Hobbes famously wrote that life in the state of nature was “nasty, brutish, and short”. Recently, various scholars have claimed that Hobbes was basically right: our ancestors lived in a state of constant raiding and chronic warfare. Indeed, some have suggested that as many as 15% of ancestral humans died due to war. And the claims are made with the utmost confidence. But there is something disturbing about this confidence. The earliest archaeological records of war are only c. 14,000 years old. And many anthropologists working with modern-day hunter-gatherers claim that they tend to be remarkably peaceful.  The literature around this question is dense and difficult to penetrate. This episode aims to make it a notch more accessible.  Douglas P. Fry is an anthropologist and a leading scholar on the topic. He has written extensively about the origins of war in books such as War, Peace and Human Nature. His papers on the matter have been published in top journals such as Science. And his conclusions might be surprising to many. In this discussion, Ilari and Professor Fry talk about: The archaeological evidence for the origins of war. Why do some hunter-gatherers wage war? Why does Fry think that most of them do not? And why is the data in ⁠Better Angels of Our Nature⁠ so misleading - even fabricated? How common is lethal violence in mammals more generally?  How violent was the human Pleistocene (over 11,700 years ago)? Does it matter? Ethnic groups mentioned Pacific Northwest hunter-gatherers (hunter-gatherer groups well-known for having complex “civilisation”, including social hierarchies, warfare and slavery) Calusa (a complex hunter-gatherer group in Florida) Tiwi (Australian hunter-gathers who are atypical for having clans and a high level of lethal violence) Andaman Islanders (in the Bay of Bengal) Iñupiaq (the warring Inuit group, which was not named in the discussion) Names and technical terms Herbert Manscher Jane Goodall (primatologist who recorded so-called Gombe wars in chimpanzees) Steven Pinker  Samuel Bowles  Leslie Sponsel  Christopher Boehm C. Darwent, J. Darwent  References Misreported “war deaths” in Better Angles of Out Nature (⁠Fry & Söderberg 2019⁠) and lethal violence in hunter-gatherers (⁠Fry & Söderberg 2013⁠) Lethal violence in mammals (⁠Gomez et al. 2016⁠) and in archaeological skeletons (⁠Haas & Piscitelli)⁠  Cooperation in a spatial prisoner’s dilemma (⁠Aktipis 2004)⁠ Peace systems (⁠video⁠ & ⁠the Nature article⁠)

Is war natural for humans? This question launched episode 8 of this podcast. In that episode, anthropologist Douglas Fry argued that war is a new phenomenon. Yes, history is full of wars. But war arrived on stage only 10-15 thousand years ago – or in many areas, much later. And while war is undoubtedly part of human capacity, it is hardly our hardwired inclination. But what about chimpanzees, I asked him. They wage war. And according to many chimpanzee experts, they gang up on strangers whenever they can do so with ease. Does this not show that humans, too, are biologically programmed for feuding, raiding, and eventually, warfare? Is it not the case, then, that peace is a social invention – war the biological norm?No, Fry answered. But to understand why, he told me, I must wait until his colleague releases a book on the topic. That book is out now. Chimpanzee, War, and History is written by Fry’s long-time collaborator, R. Brian Ferguson. It goes through every chimpanzee killing on the record. And it argues that chimpanzee violence has been deeply misunderstood. The book was detailed, dense, and important. It was an eye-opener for me. So it was a pleasure to have Professor Ferguson come on the show to talk about it. We touched upon questions such as: How often do chimpanzees kill others?  Why do chimpanzees kill others (when they do)? Is human impact the only reason for chimpanzee wars? Do chimpanzees and humans enjoy violence? Does war go forever back? ____SUPPORT THE SHOWPlease consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program.Visit: ⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org_____Scholars mentioned Albert Einstein / Sigmund Freud / Michael Ghiglieri / Richard Wrangham; episode 21 / Brian Burkhalter / Leslie Sponsel / Douglas Fry; episode 8 Chimpanzee groupsKahama and Kasakela group (in Gombe) K- and M-groups (in Mahale)Ngogo (in Kibale)Other links Video of a chimpanzee raid (narrated by David Attenborough)Essays, articles, and other materials by R. Brian Ferguson are available on his personal website

What does war do to the human psyche? It can traumatise. It can cause grief. It can normalise violence and make demons out of the enemy. But difficult times can also elevate our care and compassion. And while much of the new solidarity is focused on those on “our side”, the helping hand does not always stop at the border.Or so argues anthropologist Greta Uehling, the author of Everyday War (2023). Building on over 150 interviews with Ukrainian civilians and ex-combatants, Uehling’s work brings depth and nuance to the topic - a topic often simplified by naive contrasts between peaceful care and brutal violence. Profoundly optimistic in ways, Uehling is still far from romanticising war. Rather, she paints a humane picture of people finding meaning from the challenges of violent conflict.Dr Uehling sat down with Ilari to discuss various stories and lessons from Ukraine. As always, the episode finishes with Dr Uehling's own views on humanity.Mentioned scholarsYuval Noah Harari / Paul Ricoeur / Hans-Georg GadamerNames of the Ukrainian respondents have been altered to protect their identity_________SUPPORT THE SHOWPlease consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program. Visit: ⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org

Jeremy DeSilva, a fossil expert and professor of paleoanthropology at Dartmouth, delves into the quirks of human evolution, particularly our unique bipedalism. He discusses how upright walking shaped not just our body but our social structures and even complex language. DeSilva challenges Darwin's views, exploring the painful realities of childbirth and the health benefits of walking, like reducing Alzheimer’s risk. He uncovers how ancient bones reveal tales of resilience and community, reminding us of the intricate dance between evolution and our current vulnerabilities.

Here is a common view on human development: In the beginning, children can only think about themselves. Slowly, they learn to care about others — or more cynically, they learn to pretend that they care about others. Variations of this view have been promoted by thinkers from Sigmund Freud to Richard Dawkins. This view has then been used to make predictable conclusions about ethics: human morality is either a social construct —  fearfully internalized — or a clever tactic, used by selfish individuals to reap the benefits of teamwork. But what evidence do we actually have about young children’s motivations? Do they genuinely not care about others? To discuss these questions I have Dr Amrisha Vaish on the show. Vaish is a developmental psychologist at the University of Virginia, famous for her work on pro-social motivations in young children. We discuss issues such as: How spontaneous is it for young children to help others? Why do children help others? Do they want praise or do they genuinely care about others? How early does empathy emerge?  Different forms of empathy; or the subtle difference between matching others’ emotions versus caring about others’ emotios? What should parents do to help children grow to be more caring? Neurodiversity and empathy in autism Is anyone born a psychopath?  Where does mundane cruelty (e.g. to animals) come from? The difference between sympathy and guilt; and why does the latter emerge later? What decades of studying young children has taught Vaish about our species_________Please consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program. Visit: Patreon.com/OnHumans Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org_________Scholars mentionedSigmund Freud / Felix Waerneken / Michael Tomasello / Robert Hepach / Joan Grusec / Maayan Davidov / Daniel Batson / Audun Dahl / Celia Brownell / Martin Hoffman / Jan Engelman / Vikram Jaswhwal / Paul Bloom / Peter Singer / Richard Dawkins / Jean Decety / Scott Barry Kaufman / Simon Baron-Cohen Books mentionedAltruism in Humans (by Daniel Batson) / The Last Manchu (Memoirs of Emperor Puyi) / Transcend (by Scott Barry Kaufman)Read moreThe books below are curated for those interested in learning more about the topic. Listeners of the On Humans podcast are eligible to get one of them for free as an Audible audiobook.* Becoming Human (Michael Tomasello) Just Babies (Paul Bloom)To get your free book, set up an Audible account via the following link.https://amzn.to/3qMMshwYou gain one free credit which you can use for a book of your choice. * Offer is not available for current Audible customers. However, current customers can access Becoming Humans for free via Audible's PLUS catalogue.

What would a Neanderthal think about our species? What about a chimpanzee? When compared to our cousins, how friendly or violent are we? Richard Wrangham is a chimpanzee expert and professor of human biology at Harvard. He is one of the most important evolutionary anthropologists alive and truly one of the dream guests for this podcast. It was a great honour to have him on the show. We discuss topics such as: What makes studying chimpanzees interesting Why you could not put 100 chimps on a plane (and not see a fight) What about bonobos? The goodness paradox: or why Wrangham thinks that humans are both a remarkably friendly and a relatively violent ape. Are humans a child-like ape? Why human skulls resemble dogs, not wolves What five decades of research have taught Wrangham about humansMentioned scholarsJane Goodall / Takayoshi Kano / Martin Surbeck / Michael Wilson / Kim Hill / Victoria Burbank / Brian Hare / Dimitri Belyaev / Lyudmila Trut / Adam Wilkins / Tecumseh Fitch / Stephen Jay Gould / Michael Tomasello / Christopher Boehm / Douglas P. Fry / Amar Sarkar Mentioned papers Neural crest cells Neurobiology of aggressionFurther reading and a FREE audiobook offer:Below is a list of further book recommendations written for the general audience. You might be eligible to get one of these books for free from Audible.  Reason For Hope (by Jane Goodall). A mix of a scientific memoir and a philosophical inquiry. Read beautifully by the author. How to Tame a Fox (by Lyudmila Trut and Lee Dugatkin). Story of the remarkable experiment on domesticated foxes. The Chimpanzee Whisperer (by David Blissett and Stany Nyandwi). The story of a man who learns to pant-hoot with chimpanzees.How to get your free audiobook from Audible (if eligible, see terms & conditions behind the link): Start an Audible account or re-activate your old one using this link: https://amzn.to/3qMMshw. Once your account is live, you will get one free credit. You can use this on the book of your choice. BECOME A SPONSOR?Please consider becoming a monthly donor via Patreon! Patreon.com/OnHumansGET IN TOUCHEmail: ilari@onhumansorgA suggestive timeline of human evolution (estimated years ago)  c. 6 million years ago: Last common ancestor of humans, chimpanzees and bonobos  4 — 3 million years ago: Australopithecines 2.5 — 1.5 million years ago: Homo habilis (arguably the first human) 2 million — 100 thousand years ago: Homo erectus (first “proper” human according to Wrangham) 600 thousand — 300 thousand: Homo heidelbergensis (evolving to Neanderthals and us) 300 thousand — today : Homo sapiens 

Season 2 is out this Saturday, 17th of June! In this final highlight from season 1, anthropologist Vivek Venkataraman talks to Ilari about living with Batek hunter-gatherers. The Batek live in the rainforests of Malaysia and are famous for being one of the most egalitarian society ever studied: things are shared, decisions are made together, and men don't dominate over women. The Batek lifestyle was inspirational in many ways, Dr Venkataraman tells, but one of their norms was particularly difficult to follow...

Season 2 is kicking off on the 17th of June! In the meanwhile, we have time for a couple of more highlights. This one is from episode 18 with economic historian Brad Delong, author of Slouching Towards Utopia.

In this highlight from season 1, Ilari talks with economist Oded Galor about how factors such as soil quality can explain cultural differences, such as variations in the level of patriarchy. For the full episode and show notes, see episode 13. For the first episode with Galor, see episode 12. Season 2 is out in June! Do consider subscribing to stay updated.