On Humans

How natural is a sexual division of labour? Very natural, claims a popular theory. Indeed, it was the secret to our success: men evolved to hunt, women to forage. This allowed women to focus on childcare while staying economically productive; after all, one can gather food with children. Men, on the other hand, could focus on high-risk hunting. At the end of the day, everyone could have steak and veggies for dinner.But why exactly do we say this? Is this based on solid evidence? Or are we simply projecting our gender roles onto the human past?A recent piece in Scientific American argued that this theory is outdated and should be "buried for good". As you might imagine, some heated discussion ensued. This is understandable. But I felt that much of the science was lost under the storm. To clean things up, I invited one of the authors, Cara Ocobock, to discuss the paper on the show.I hope this can clarify the argument. It might even clear some of the unnecessary controversy. At the very least, this was a very stimulating discussion! I learned a lot of things, from the remarkable lifestyle of female Neanderthals to how oestrogen helps in muscle recovery. I hope you enjoy the conversation! If you do, consider becoming a supporter of On Humans on Patreon.com/OnHumans. ESSAYS AND NEWSLETTER Do you prefer reading to listening? You can now find breakdowns of new conversations from OnHumans.Substack.com. (This conversation's breakdown is now available!)MENTIONSScholars: Sarah Lacy, Cara Wall-Sheffler, Vivek Venkataraman (ep. 14), Frank Marlow, Kristen Hawkes (ep. 6), Angela Saini, Richard Wrangham (ep. 21)Terms: archaeology, physiology, paleoanthropology, Holocene, Pleistocene, atlatl (spear-thrower), CT scanning, lactation, testosterone, oestrogen Ethnic groups and places: Martu (Australia), Agta (Philippines) Inuit, Batek (Malaysia), Çatalhöyük (Turkey)Books: Patriarchs (Saini), Why Men (Lindisfarne & Neale), Dawn of Everything (Graeber & Wengrow)For articles and other links, see https://onhumans.substack.com/p/links-for-episode-29Thank you, as always, for listening!

In this thought-provoking discussion, primatologist Sarah Brosnan dives into her groundbreaking research on fairness and inequity aversion in monkeys. She explores the famous cucumber-throwing experiment, linking monkey frustrations with human social inequalities. The conversation covers topics like the potential for monkeys to adopt egalitarian norms and how fairness enhances cooperation. Brosnan also examines whether animals have concepts of property rights and what these behaviors reveal about human moral evolution, prompting a fascinating exploration of our shared nature.

Suzana Herculano-Houzel, a Brazilian neuroscientist and associate professor at Vanderbilt University, dives into the intricacies of the human brain. She discusses how our brain isn't necessarily the largest but is unique due to its neuron count. Herculano-Houzel unpacks the myth of brain size correlating with intelligence and highlights fascinating brain comparisons across species, especially elephants. She also links diet and cooking to brain development, ultimately questioning why not all animals evolved larger brains despite the advantages.

How literally can we be in "synch" with someone? Very literally, said my guest in episode 3. Originally titled “A Musical Biology of Love”, this was a fascinating episode with jazz musician and neuroscientist Ruth Feldman. We recorded the episode one year ago, almost to the day. I have thought a lot about it ever since. So here it is again, with remastered audio and a new introduction. Original show notes are below. Enjoy! ____ SUPPORT THE SHOW Please consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program. Visit: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org _____ Can biology expand our appreciation of love? What is the relationship between jazz and neuroscience? What does it mean to be in "synch" with someone?  Ruth Feldman is a professor of neuroscience at Reichman University, Israel, with a joint appointment at the Yale Child Story Centre. A jazz musician before being a neuroscientist, Feldman combines musical ideas of synchrony into her research on the neurobiology of attachment, bonding, and love. Ilari and Professor Feldman discuss topics such as: Why study the biology of love What happens in the brain when we love Brain-to-brain synchrony: How love (and friendship) can synchronize our brains with each other Oxytocin with loved ones, strangers, and enemies Post-partum depression Parental love in gay dads Females and males as primary caregivers The relationship between brain-to-brain synchrony and oxytocin Empathy within and beyond group boundaries with Israeli and Palestinian youth Attachment theory, attachment problems, and ways to overcome them Technical terms mentioned Oxytocin Brain oscillations (i.e. brain waves) EEG (a method to study brain oscillations) Neuropeptide ⁠Kangaroo care⁠ (after premature birth) Names mentioned Wallace Stevens (American poet) Emmanuel Levinas (French philosopher) John Bowlby (founder of the attachment theory) Other links and reference ⁠Brain-to-brain synchrony⁠ Gay dads: ⁠original research⁠ & ⁠TIME Magazine article⁠ ⁠Intervention with depressed moms⁠

Machines allow us to do more work with less effort. They sound like an obviously good thing. But there is a tension here. New gadgets and new technologies - new simple “machines” - have been invented throughout history. But it looks like the living standard of the average person did not change for most of that time. So what happened to all the extra output from new technologies? And how is this relevant to our age of computers, robots, and AI? To discuss these themes, I am joined by MIT professor Daron Acemoglu. Acemoglu is a true legend in his field. In 2015, he was ranked the single most cited economist of the past 10 years. And his most famous book, Why Nations Fail, (co-authored with James Robinson) is known by many students of economics as the only history book they ever had to read. But today’s conversation is not about Why Nations Fail. It is about Acemoglu’s new book, Power and Progress: Our 1000-Year Struggle Over Technology (co-authored with Simon Johnson). In many ways, this is a typical Acemoglu book: it is a doorstopper that uses an array of historical lessons to draw messages for the present. And as before, it asks economists to take democratic politics more seriously. But in other ways, this is quite different from his previous books. For me, it felt much darker – especially in its portrayal of rich countries such as the US. But Acemoglu affirmed to me that he is still an optimist. He even tells me that the reason is related to the theme of this podcast series... I will let him tell you why.We discuss topics such as: Why have so many machines failed to benefit the common folk?  Why things changed for the better in the late 1800s - and why my past guests are wrong about the reasons? Have we started backsliding again?  Does this explain the political turmoil of today - especially in the US? Why Acemoglu is not against technological progress - but has a message to tech leaders  What has his work in economics taught Acemoglu about humanity?____SUPPORT THE SHOWPlease consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program.Visit: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠⁠Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org_____Oded Galor (episodes 12 & 13), Brad DeLong (episode 18) / Josh Ober / Ian Morris / Samuel Bowles / Herbert Gintis /John Hicks / H. J. / Robert Allen / Habakkuk / Joel Mokyr / Elon Musk / Pascual RestrepoOther terms and referencesMalthusian dynamics (of population growth “eating away” any increases in production) Chartists and Luddites (19th Century British political movements)

To complete a trilogy on the anthropology of war, here is episode 8 from the archives. Enjoy! SUPPORT THE SHOW Please consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program. Visit: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org _______ Thomas Hobbes famously wrote that life in the state of nature was “nasty, brutish, and short”. Recently, various scholars have claimed that Hobbes was basically right: our ancestors lived in a state of constant raiding and chronic warfare. Indeed, some have suggested that as many as 15% of ancestral humans died due to war. And the claims are made with the utmost confidence. But there is something disturbing about this confidence. The earliest archaeological records of war are only c. 14,000 years old. And many anthropologists working with modern-day hunter-gatherers claim that they tend to be remarkably peaceful.  The literature around this question is dense and difficult to penetrate. This episode aims to make it a notch more accessible.  Douglas P. Fry is an anthropologist and a leading scholar on the topic. He has written extensively about the origins of war in books such as War, Peace and Human Nature. His papers on the matter have been published in top journals such as Science. And his conclusions might be surprising to many. In this discussion, Ilari and Professor Fry talk about: The archaeological evidence for the origins of war. Why do some hunter-gatherers wage war? Why does Fry think that most of them do not? And why is the data in ⁠Better Angels of Our Nature⁠ so misleading - even fabricated? How common is lethal violence in mammals more generally?  How violent was the human Pleistocene (over 11,700 years ago)? Does it matter? Ethnic groups mentioned Pacific Northwest hunter-gatherers (hunter-gatherer groups well-known for having complex “civilisation”, including social hierarchies, warfare and slavery) Calusa (a complex hunter-gatherer group in Florida) Tiwi (Australian hunter-gathers who are atypical for having clans and a high level of lethal violence) Andaman Islanders (in the Bay of Bengal) Iñupiaq (the warring Inuit group, which was not named in the discussion) Names and technical terms Herbert Manscher Jane Goodall (primatologist who recorded so-called Gombe wars in chimpanzees) Steven Pinker  Samuel Bowles  Leslie Sponsel  Christopher Boehm C. Darwent, J. Darwent  References Misreported “war deaths” in Better Angles of Out Nature (⁠Fry & Söderberg 2019⁠) and lethal violence in hunter-gatherers (⁠Fry & Söderberg 2013⁠) Lethal violence in mammals (⁠Gomez et al. 2016⁠) and in archaeological skeletons (⁠Haas & Piscitelli)⁠  Cooperation in a spatial prisoner’s dilemma (⁠Aktipis 2004)⁠ Peace systems (⁠video⁠ & ⁠the Nature article⁠)

Is war natural for humans? This question launched episode 8 of this podcast. In that episode, anthropologist Douglas Fry argued that war is a new phenomenon. Yes, history is full of wars. But war arrived on stage only 10-15 thousand years ago – or in many areas, much later. And while war is undoubtedly part of human capacity, it is hardly our hardwired inclination. But what about chimpanzees, I asked him. They wage war. And according to many chimpanzee experts, they gang up on strangers whenever they can do so with ease. Does this not show that humans, too, are biologically programmed for feuding, raiding, and eventually, warfare? Is it not the case, then, that peace is a social invention – war the biological norm?No, Fry answered. But to understand why, he told me, I must wait until his colleague releases a book on the topic. That book is out now. Chimpanzee, War, and History is written by Fry’s long-time collaborator, R. Brian Ferguson. It goes through every chimpanzee killing on the record. And it argues that chimpanzee violence has been deeply misunderstood. The book was detailed, dense, and important. It was an eye-opener for me. So it was a pleasure to have Professor Ferguson come on the show to talk about it. We touched upon questions such as: How often do chimpanzees kill others?  Why do chimpanzees kill others (when they do)? Is human impact the only reason for chimpanzee wars? Do chimpanzees and humans enjoy violence? Does war go forever back? ____SUPPORT THE SHOWPlease consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program.Visit: ⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org_____Scholars mentioned Albert Einstein / Sigmund Freud / Michael Ghiglieri / Richard Wrangham; episode 21 / Brian Burkhalter / Leslie Sponsel / Douglas Fry; episode 8 Chimpanzee groupsKahama and Kasakela group (in Gombe) K- and M-groups (in Mahale)Ngogo (in Kibale)Other links Video of a chimpanzee raid (narrated by David Attenborough)Essays, articles, and other materials by R. Brian Ferguson are available on his personal website

What does war do to the human psyche? It can traumatise. It can cause grief. It can normalise violence and make demons out of the enemy. But difficult times can also elevate our care and compassion. And while much of the new solidarity is focused on those on “our side”, the helping hand does not always stop at the border.Or so argues anthropologist Greta Uehling, the author of Everyday War (2023). Building on over 150 interviews with Ukrainian civilians and ex-combatants, Uehling’s work brings depth and nuance to the topic - a topic often simplified by naive contrasts between peaceful care and brutal violence. Profoundly optimistic in ways, Uehling is still far from romanticising war. Rather, she paints a humane picture of people finding meaning from the challenges of violent conflict.Dr Uehling sat down with Ilari to discuss various stories and lessons from Ukraine. As always, the episode finishes with Dr Uehling's own views on humanity.Mentioned scholarsYuval Noah Harari / Paul Ricoeur / Hans-Georg GadamerNames of the Ukrainian respondents have been altered to protect their identity_________SUPPORT THE SHOWPlease consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program. Visit: ⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans ⁠⁠⁠Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org

Jeremy DeSilva, a fossil expert and professor of paleoanthropology at Dartmouth, delves into the quirks of human evolution, particularly our unique bipedalism. He discusses how upright walking shaped not just our body but our social structures and even complex language. DeSilva challenges Darwin's views, exploring the painful realities of childbirth and the health benefits of walking, like reducing Alzheimer’s risk. He uncovers how ancient bones reveal tales of resilience and community, reminding us of the intricate dance between evolution and our current vulnerabilities.

Here is a common view on human development: In the beginning, children can only think about themselves. Slowly, they learn to care about others — or more cynically, they learn to pretend that they care about others. Variations of this view have been promoted by thinkers from Sigmund Freud to Richard Dawkins. This view has then been used to make predictable conclusions about ethics: human morality is either a social construct —  fearfully internalized — or a clever tactic, used by selfish individuals to reap the benefits of teamwork. But what evidence do we actually have about young children’s motivations? Do they genuinely not care about others? To discuss these questions I have Dr Amrisha Vaish on the show. Vaish is a developmental psychologist at the University of Virginia, famous for her work on pro-social motivations in young children. We discuss issues such as: How spontaneous is it for young children to help others? Why do children help others? Do they want praise or do they genuinely care about others? How early does empathy emerge?  Different forms of empathy; or the subtle difference between matching others’ emotions versus caring about others’ emotios? What should parents do to help children grow to be more caring? Neurodiversity and empathy in autism Is anyone born a psychopath?  Where does mundane cruelty (e.g. to animals) come from? The difference between sympathy and guilt; and why does the latter emerge later? What decades of studying young children has taught Vaish about our species_________Please consider becoming a supporter of On Humans. Even small monthly donations can make a huge impact on the long-term sustainability of the program. Visit: Patreon.com/OnHumans Get in touch: ilari@onhumans.org_________Scholars mentionedSigmund Freud / Felix Waerneken / Michael Tomasello / Robert Hepach / Joan Grusec / Maayan Davidov / Daniel Batson / Audun Dahl / Celia Brownell / Martin Hoffman / Jan Engelman / Vikram Jaswhwal / Paul Bloom / Peter Singer / Richard Dawkins / Jean Decety / Scott Barry Kaufman / Simon Baron-Cohen Books mentionedAltruism in Humans (by Daniel Batson) / The Last Manchu (Memoirs of Emperor Puyi) / Transcend (by Scott Barry Kaufman)Read moreThe books below are curated for those interested in learning more about the topic. Listeners of the On Humans podcast are eligible to get one of them for free as an Audible audiobook.* Becoming Human (Michael Tomasello) Just Babies (Paul Bloom)To get your free book, set up an Audible account via the following link.https://amzn.to/3qMMshwYou gain one free credit which you can use for a book of your choice. * Offer is not available for current Audible customers. However, current customers can access Becoming Humans for free via Audible's PLUS catalogue.