
Secondary Rules
Join legal scholars Ryan Goss and Joshua Neoh as they discuss public law and legal theory in their podcast, Secondary Rules. In each episode, Ryan and Joshua bring to life exciting cases, puzzles, and controversies from Australia and around the world - exploring some of the biggest questions facing any legal system, and the legal questions that define our democracy.
Ryan and Joshua are both associate professors at The Australian National University (ANU) College of Law in Canberra, teaching and researching Australian public law and legal theory. Whether you're a lawyer, a law student or just somebody interested in better understanding the legal world around us, Secondary Rules is a must-listen podcast.
Season 3: Ten(ish) Big Ideas
Season 2: Ten Great Cases.
Season 1: Two Great Courses.
Latest episodes

Oct 7, 2022 • 44min
Stare Indecisis
This week on Secondary Rules, an unprecedented Joshua Neoh and Ryan Goss discussion about precedent, when Courts change their minds, and how legal systems sit alongside one another. Thrown in along the way: a dramatic HCA transcript reenactment and a look at upcoming US Supreme Court cases.Williams (No 1)(2012)2nd Territory Senators Case (1977)Labor drops Coalition bid to overturn high court ruling (2022)US Supreme Court’s Big New Term (2022)Judicial Committee of the Privy CouncilIf you're a student in Australian Public Law or Legal Theory this semester, more available on the course WATTLE sites. Learn more about the ANU College of Law here. Our thanks to Jack O’Brien, Tom Fearon, and the ANU College of Law. ANU acknowledges and celebrates the First Australians on whose traditional lands we meet, and pays our respect to Elders past and present.

Sep 30, 2022 • 37min
Crisis and Catharsis
On this podcast, they discuss the parallels between interpreting law and scripture, the differences between Catholic and Protestant perspectives, the importance of unity through central authority, the relationship between individual interpretation and institutionalization, the Pape decision and economic crisis response, the scope of emergency declarations in constitutional frameworks, and the historic appointment of Justice Jane Jago to the High Court.

Sep 23, 2022 • 36min
Wide Sargasso Sea
This podcast delves into the theatrical spectacle of Question Time in Parliament, comparing Australian and UK systems. It also explores the connection between law and novels like 'Jane Eyre', and reimagines the character Bertha in 'Wide Sargasso Sea'. The discussion highlights the intersection of lore and literature in legal development and revisits legal precedents like the Marbo case. Ultimately, it explores continuity and integrity in legal systems through literary analogies.

Sep 15, 2022 • 30min
Small Brown Bird
Exploring the Britishness of the monarchy, implications of King Charles becoming head of state, Australia's connection to the British monarchy, division between public and private law, career paths in public law, and comparing judicial roles in Australian and US constitutions.

Sep 9, 2022 • 38min
King Charles III
This week on Secondary Rules, Joshua Neoh and Ryan Goss talk about the monarchy, the Queen, the King, and reflect on why legal theory matters.Prime Minister’s Statement on the Passing of HM The QueenSuccession to the Throne'London Bridge is down': the secret plan for the days after the Queen’s death (Sam Knight, The Guardian, March 2017)If you're a student in Australian Public Law or Legal Theory this semester, more available on the course WATTLE sites. Interested in starting your own law studies or learning more about our legal research? Learn more here. Our thanks to Jack O’Brien, Tom Fearon, and the ANU College of Law for their production of the podcast. Our theme music is by Soul Shifters. ANU acknowledges and celebrates the First Australians on whose traditional lands we meet, and pays our respect to Elders past and present.

4 snips
Sep 3, 2022 • 38min
Penguin Senators
This week on the podcast, the hosts discuss why we should obey the law, the interaction between law and morality, the constitutional status of territories in Australia, and the speculation on the appointment of a new High Court judge.

Aug 25, 2022 • 36min
My Hart will go on
This week on the podcast, the hosts discuss parliamentary sovereignty in the Australian context, the origins and significance of secondary rules in legal theory, the validity of a traffic violation fine and the concept of law, the legislative hierarchy and the Australian Constitution's role, the rule of recognition as a foundational secondary rule, and the influence and criticism of legal philosopher Hart.

Aug 19, 2022 • 38min
Ministry of Secrets
In this episode of Secondary Rules, the hosts discuss Rousseau's views on rabbits, the controversial secret ministries of Scott Morrison, and the constitutional issues surrounding the governor-general's actions. They analyze Rousseau's critique of Hobbes' theory of the state of nature and explore the imposition of societal chains. They also examine the legal implications of the prime minister being secretly appointed to multiple ministerial positions and discuss the role of the governor-general in Australia.

Aug 12, 2022 • 36min
Hobbled by Hobbes
This week on Secondary Rules, Joshua Neoh and Ryan Goss talk about voting rights under the Constitution (should 6-year-olds have the vote?), Prince Charles’ qualifications to be our next Head of State, and look at why Hobbes thought none of us can sleep soundly.Roach v Electoral Commissioner [2007] HCA 43
ANU, "Experts call to lower voting age to 16"Runciman "Votes for children! Why we should lower the voting age to six""Votes for corporations and extra votes for property owners: why local council elections are undemocratic""Donations scandals call into question judgement of Prince Charles"Hobbes' Leviathan (ch 13)"Thomas Hobbes" (Oxford Dictionary of National Biography)If you're a student in Australian Public Law or Legal Theory this semester, more available on the course WATTLE sites. Interested in starting your own law studies or learning more about our legal research? Learn more here. Our thanks to Jack O’Brien, Tom Fearon, and the ANU College of Law for their production of the podcast. Our theme music is by Soul Shifters. ANU acknowledges and celebrates the First Australians on whose traditional lands we meet, and pays our respect to Elders past and present.

Aug 4, 2022 • 33min
Athens on the Molonglo
Paul Gewirtz, an expert in Aeschylus' LawScript of Aeschylus' Eumenides, joins Joshua Neoh and Ryan Goss to discuss law and forgiveness in ancient Greek plays, federalism in the age of Covid, and the Prime Minister's speech about a referendum on the Voice.