

Interbeing
Hosted by Matt Hall and Naomi Ward. Produced by Emily Crosby and Kyra Kellawan.
Interbeing is a podcast by MSB exploring what it means to lead, coach, and live in a deeply interconnected world. Hosted by Naomi Ward and Matt Hall, the show brings together educators, coaches, and thought leaders to reflect on the questions shaping international schools and beyond.In this new season we return to the heart of our work: coaching as a way of being. Together we explore how presence, curiosity, and care can shift not just our conversations, but our cultures. Inspired by Thich Nhat Hanh’s teaching on “interbeing,” we recognise that nothing exists in isolation — every choice, every relationship, every pause matters.Expect honest dialogue, stories from the field, and a commitment to learning in public. Not as answers, but as invitations to think differently about leadership, community, and the future of education.You can find out more about Futures-Focused Leadership Coaching for International Schools and MSB at www.makingstuffbetter.com
Episodes
Mentioned books

Feb 28, 2024 • 36min
S2Ep13: How We Can Help Students To Become Global Citizens with Dee Lanier
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Matt Hall and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by Dee Lanier, Lead Learning Designer at Lanier Learning and Education Coach for Samsung Education. Award winning TEDX speaker and author of Demarginalising Design, Dee Lanier is dedicated to co-designing equitable learning experiences for school leaders, staff, and students, and helping schools to implement technology in meaningful ways.They discuss design thinking as a mindset, the importance of empathy, and solving the problem ‘with’ versus ‘for’.How can we find out what really matters to the communities in and around schools to create an environment of change and development? Might there be a disconnect between what leaders and administrators recognise as challenges, and what the community they lead recognise as challenges? How can we begin to bridge that gap?--------------------------------------To get in touch with Dee, you can find him online here:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deelanier/Demarginalising Design: https://www.amazon.com/Demarginalizing-Design-Elevating-Problem-Solving/dp/0578286556Lanier Learning: https://www.lanierlearning.com/The Liberated Educator podcast: https://wavve.link/LiberatedPod/episodes--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Feb 14, 2024 • 35min
S2Ep12: How To Just Be: Unfreezing Our Leadership Potential with Nicholas Janni
Nicholas Janni, renowned speaker and author, discusses leadership as healers and the impact of childhood trauma on leadership. They explore the power of reverence, intuition, and connection. The conversation delves into unlocking connected, intentional leadership and improving organizational health.

Jan 31, 2024 • 34min
S2Ep11: Nurturing The Cultural Richness Of International Schools with Shane Leaning
Shane Leaning, international school leadership and organisational development coach, joins Matt Hall and Naomi Ward to discuss cultural differences in communication, decision making, authority, and criticism in international schools. They explore the power of a coaching-style approach to leadership and the importance of adaptability and curiosity in navigating intercultural challenges.

Jan 17, 2024 • 31min
S2Ep10: Respect, Reflection, And Culturally Responsive Leadership with Ryan Persaud
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Matt Hall and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by Ryan Persaud, school leader at VERSO International School, a “school of the future” in Thailand. They discuss overcoming barriers and leading with courage, authenticity, and purpose; the importance of returning to the vision; and the power of mentorship.What is culturally responsive leadership and how can leadership teams in international schools foster it? What role does our bias and our privilege play in how we lead and influence others?--------------------------------------To get in touch with Ryan, you can find him online here:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-persaud/VERSO International School: https://www.verso.ac.th/--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Jan 3, 2024 • 36min
S2Ep9: How To Truly Listen: Nurturing A 'Thinking Environment' with Candice Smith
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Gill Kelly and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by Candice Smith, meeting & workshop facilitator, coach, and founder of The Thinking Field, through which she helps leaders to “create cultures of collaboration, inclusion, belonging and innovation.”They discuss the responsibility we have to acknowledging the influence of previous generations, the importance of intentionality in setting up organisations that help our bodies and minds to thrive, and the tension between building profit and building a culture of thinking.What is a ‘thinking environment’ and how can we actively create one? What is the role of collaboration, deep listening, and connection in this mission? How much damage can interrupting someone really do?--------------------------------------To get in touch with Candice, you can find her online here:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/candice-smith-a76944a/The Thinking Field: https://www.thethinkingfield.com/--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Dec 20, 2023 • 37min
S2Ep8: Creative & Connected Organisations: An Improv-able Approach with Stuart Reid
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Gill Kelly and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by Stuart Reid, founder and Executive Leadership Team Coach at Stuart Reid Consulting, through which he helps senior leaders overcome the challenges of their position. They discuss the importance of fun and laughter in creating organisational health; letting go and being open to playfulness, creativity, and curiosity; and how to frame mistakes as catalysts for opportunity How much can we learn from improvisation? What effect does it have on our ability to connect, be present, and discover better ways of thinking?--------------------------------------To get in touch with Stuart , you can find him online here:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartreid/?originalSubdomain=ukStuart Reid Consulting: https://www.stuartreid.co/--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Dec 6, 2023 • 25min
S2Ep7: The Growing Importance Of Prioritising Wellbeing In Schools with Matthew Savage (part 2)
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Matt Hall and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by Matthew Savage, speaker, trainer, coach, and founder of The Mona Lisa Effect®, through which Matthew explores the intersection between wellbeing and DEIJ in schools all around the world.In part 2 of their two-part series, they discuss the transformative effect of restorative practices, the need for systemic thinking, and the urgency trap. In a society where academic intelligence is prized above all else, there seems to be an ‘either/or’ approach when it comes to good grades and wellbeing. But do we have to forfeit one for the other, or is there a symbiotic relationship between the two? Join Matt and Naomi as they discuss all of this and more with esteemed leadership coach Matthew Savage.--------------------------------------To get in touch with Matthew, you can find him online here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savageeducation/?originalSubdomain=ukThe Mona Lisa Effect: https://monalisaeffect.me/--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Nov 22, 2023 • 29min
S2Ep6: Data-Driven Wellbeing In Schools: How To Nurture DEIJ with Matthew Savage (part 1)
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Matt Hall and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by Matthew Savage, speaker, trainer, coach, and founder of The Mona Lisa Effect®, through which Matthew explores the intersection between wellbeing and DEIJ in schools all around the world.In part 1 of a fascinating and value-packed conversation, they discuss why data is a question and never an answer, why good intentions aren’t always enough, and the complexity of organisational health and wellness.Does community wellbeing depend up in the wellbeing of the most marginalised? What role does discomfort play in creating truly diverse and inclusive environments? And how can we address the submerged complexities that lead to the often over-simplified emergent symptoms?--------------------------------------To get in touch with Matthew, you can find him online here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savageeducation/?originalSubdomain=ukThe Mona Lisa Effect: https://monalisaeffect.me/--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Nov 8, 2023 • 36min
S2Ep5: Empowering Young Voices: Faith, Peace & Feminism with St. Mary's School
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Matt Hall and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by experienced educator and Headmistress of St. Mary’s School in Cambridge, Charlotte Avery, as well as friends and colleagues Kate Latham, Director of Teaching and Learning, and Amina. They discuss the ideals at the heart of Mary Ward schools, the oft-overlooked importance of courage, joy, and optimism, and peacebuilding not as the absence of conflict but as an active and ongoing process.--------------------------------------To get in touch with Charlotte and her colleagues, you can find them online here:Charlotte LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlotte-avery-5194747b/?originalSubdomain=ukKate LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-latham-1715181aa/?originalSubdomain=ukSt. Mary’s School: https://www.stmaryscambridge.co.uk/home.htm--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/

Oct 25, 2023 • 33min
S2Ep4: How We Can Create Systemic Kindness with Sam Isaacson
Welcome to the Principled podcast.In this episode, Matt Hall and Naomi Ward of Making Stuff Better are joined by author, consultant, and founder of Coachtech Collective, Sam Isaacson.They discuss the crucial attributes great leaders have and how these impact the organisations they lead, the importance of emotional intelligence and embracing our vulnerabilities, and how well-defined structures and policies can safeguard against potential issues and protect organisational health.--------------------------------------To get in touch with Sam, you can find him online here:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samisaacson/?originalSubdomain=ukCoachtech Collective: https://www.isaacson.uk/Next Generation Leadership: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Next-Generation-Leadership-blueprint-systemic/dp/B0CGYW3BHX/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1696414106&refinements=p_27%3ASam+Isaacson&s=books&sr=1-1--------------------------------------To get in touch, please find us online here:Website: https://makingstuffbetter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/makingstuffbetterltd/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Makstubet/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/makingstuffbetter/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/stuff_better?lang=enAdditional links to follow:Matt Hall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-hall-msb/Gill Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillkelly/Naomi Ward: https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-ward-098a1535/