Artificiality: Minds Meeting Machines

In this conversation, we explore AI bias, transformative justice, and the future of technology with Dr. Avriel Epps, computational social scientist, Civic Science Postdoctoral Fellow at Cornell University's CATLab, and co-founder of AI for Abolition.What makes this conversation unique is how it begins with Avriel's recently published children's book, A Kids Book About AI Bias (Penguin Random House), designed for ages 5-9. As an accomplished researcher with a PhD from Harvard and expertise in how algorithmic systems impact identity development, Avriel has taken on the remarkable challenge of translating complex technical concepts about AI bias into accessible language for the youngest learners.Key themes we explore:- The Translation Challenge: How to distill graduate-level research on algorithmic bias into concepts a six-year-old can understand—and why kids' unfiltered responses to AI bias reveal truths adults often struggle to articulate- Critical Digital Literacy: Why building awareness of AI bias early can serve as a protective mechanism for young people who will be most vulnerable to these systems- AI for Abolition: Avriel's nonprofit work building community power around AI, including developing open-source tools like "Repair" for transformative and restorative justice practitioners- The Incentive Problem: Why the fundamental issue isn't the technology itself, but the economic structures driving AI development—and how communities might reclaim agency over systems built from their own data- Generational Perspectives: How different generations approach digital activism, from Gen Z's innovative but potentially ephemeral protest methods to what Gen Alpha might bring to technological resistanceThroughout our conversation, Avriel demonstrates how critical analysis of technology can coexist with practical hope. Her work embodies the belief that while AI currently reinforces existing inequalities, it doesn't have to—if we can change who controls its development and deployment.The conversation concludes with Avriel's ongoing research into how algorithmic systems shaped public discourse around major social and political events, and their vision for "small tech" solutions that serve communities rather than extracting from them.For anyone interested in AI ethics, youth development, or the intersection of technology and social justice, this conversation offers both rigorous analysis and genuine optimism about what's possible when we center equity in technological development.About Dr. Avriel Epps:Dr. Avriel Epps (she/they) is a computational social scientist and a Civic Science Postdoctoral Fellow at the Cornell University CATLab. She completed her Ph.D. at Harvard University in Education with a concentration in Human Development. She also holds an S.M. in Data Science from Harvard’s School of Engineering and Applied Sciences and a B.A. in Communication Studies from UCLA. Previously a Ford Foundation predoctoral fellow, Avriel is currently a Fellow at The National Center on Race and Digital Justice, a Roddenberry Fellow, and a Public Voices Fellow on Technology in the Public Interest with the Op-Ed Project in partnership with the MacArthur Foundation.Avriel is also the co-founder of AI4Abolition, a community organization dedicated to increasing AI literacy in marginalized communities and building community power with and around data-driven technologies. Avriel has been invited to speak at various venues including tech giants like Google and TikTok, and for The U.S. Courts, focusing on algorithmic bias and fairness. In the Fall of 2025, she will begin her tenure as Assistant Professor of Fair and Responsible Data Science at Rutgers University.Links:- Dr. Epps' official website: https://www.avrielepps.com- AI for Abolition: https://www.ai4.org- A Kids Book About AI Bias details: https://www.avrielepps.com/book

In this conversation, Benjamin Bratton, a Professor of Philosophy of Technology and Director at Antikythera, shares his insights on planetary-scale computation. He compares his interdisciplinary work to a platypus, seamlessly blending diverse fields. The discussion dives into how artificial intelligence evolves like biology, highlighting concepts like allopoiesis. Bratton also examines the implications of AI agents on human identity, urging us to rethink individual agency in a tech-driven world. Lastly, he explores the idea of Earth having its own computational consciousness.

David Wolpert, a Professor at the Santa Fe Institute, explores the intricate mathematics of meaning and its implications in a world intertwined with AI. He discusses the shift from syntactic to semantic information, revealing how understanding meaning can reshape our interactions. The conversation delves into the challenges of early AI systems, causal information in economics, and the therapeutic potential of AI. Wolpert emphasizes the importance of knowing the difference between correlation and causation, advocating for AI that genuinely understands context.

Blaise Agüera y Arcas, a Google researcher, and Michael Levin, a Tufts University expert, dive into the fascinating overlap between biology and computation. They reveal how simple rules can produce complex behaviors resembling intelligence, challenging our understanding of life. Levin discusses self-sorting algorithms that mimic adaptive problem-solving, while Agüera y Arcas explores the spontaneous emergence of self-replicating programs. Their groundbreaking insights suggest that information processing is central to both biological and computational systems.

Maggie Jackson, author of the acclaimed book 'Uncertain', discusses the art of embracing uncertainty in our chaotic world. She highlights the neuroscience behind uncertainty, urging listeners to view it not as a fearsome foe but as a catalyst for creativity and adaptability. The conversation spans how AI affects our critical thinking, the dangers of automation bias, and why understanding different types of uncertainty can lead to better decision-making. Jackson’s insights provide a refreshing perspective on leveraging uncertainty as a pathway to growth rather than a roadblock.

In this episode, we talk with Greg Epstein—humanist chaplain at Harvard and MIT, bestselling author, and a leading voice on the intersection of technology, ethics, and belief systems. Greg’s latest book, Tech Agnostic, offers a provocative argument: Silicon Valley isn’t just a powerful industry—it has become the dominant religion of our time. Note: Tech Agnostic won an Artificality Book Award in 2024—check out our review here. In this interview, we explore the deep parallels between big tech and organized religion, from sacred texts and prophets to digital congregations and AI-driven eschatology. The conversation explores digital Puritanism, the "unwitting worshipers" of tech's altars, and the theological implications of AI doomerism.But this isn’t just a critique—it’s a call for a Reformation. Greg lays out a path toward a more humane and ethical future for technology, one that resists unchecked power and prioritizes human values over digital dogma.Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on faith, fear, and the future of being human in an age where technology defines what we believe in.Do you enjoy our conversations like this one? Then subscribe on your favorite platform, subscribe to our emails (free) at Artificiality.world, and check out the Artificiality Summit—our mind-expanding retreat in Bend, Oregon at Artificiality.world/summit.Thanks again to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

In a captivating dialogue, Chris Messina—creator of the hashtag and a leading product expert—shares insights on generative AI’s potential and pitfalls. He introduces a thought-provoking framework that distinguishes AI as a tool versus a medium. The conversation highlights trust and transparency as essential for AI adoption, while advocating for community collaboration to enhance product development. Chris draws parallels between the internet's early days and today's AI landscape, envisioning a future where AI becomes a partner in creativity and problem-solving.

D. Graham Burnett will tell you his day job is as a professor of science history at Princeton University. He is also co-founder of the Strother School of Radical Attention and has been associated with the Friends of Attention since 2018. But none of those positions adequately describe Graham.His bio says that he “works at the intersection of historical inquiry and artistic practice.” He writes, he performs, he makes things. He describes himself as an attention activist. Perhaps most importantly for us, Graham helps you see the world differently—and more clearly. Graham has powerful views on the effect of technology on our attention. We often riff on his idea that technology has fracked our attention into little commoditizable bits. His work has highly influenced our concern about what might happen if the same extractive practices of the attention economy are applied to the future AI-powered intimacy economy. We were thrilled to have Graham on the pod for a wide ranging conversation about attention, intimacy, and much more. Links:https://dgrahamburnett.nethttps://www.schoolofattention.orghttps://www.friendsofattention.net---If you enjoy our podcasts, please subscribe and leave a positive rating or comment. Sharing your positive feedback helps us reach more people and connect them with the world’s great minds.Subscribe to get Artificiality delivered to your email: https://www.artificiality.worldThanks to Jonathan Coulton for our music.

Michael Levin, a distinguished professor at Tufts University, explores the fascinating realm of diverse intelligences in biology. He discusses the concept of 'synthbiosis,' envisioning a future where AI coexists with evolved cellular intelligences. Levin highlights breakthroughs in regenerative medicine, such as bioelectric treatments prompting leg growth in frogs. The conversation also touches on xenobots, their autonomous abilities, and ethical considerations, ultimately redefining our understanding of intelligence across living systems.

Explore the historical significance of the umbrella as a metaphor for challenging societal norms and question the boundaries of life and intelligence. Delve into the shift from an attention-driven economy to one prioritizing personal intimacy, sparking conversations about data commoditization. Unpack the complex relationship between humans and devices like smartphones, examining their impact on knowledge and consciousness. Finally, reflect on the evolution of tools, highlighting the journey from bicycles to autonomous systems and envisioning a future of collaboration between humans and machines.