Sentientism

Kathy is Assistant Dean, Animal Legal Education at George Washington University Law School and Director of the Animal Legal Education Initiative. Kathy has been a clinical law professor for 30 years and has been teaching animal law for 22 years. She is the first law professor hired to teach animal law full-time. Kathy helped develop the Center for Animal Law Studies at Lewis & Clark Law School (L&C). For fourteen years she taught there and directed the Animal Law Clinic. She also created and directed the Aquatic Animal Law Initiative and is the co-founder of World Aquatic Animal Day along with Amy P. Wilson. Kathy co-authored “Animal Law in a Nutshell”, “Animal Law – New Perspectives on  Teaching Traditional Law” and the amicus briefs submitted in the U.S. v. Stevens and Justice v. Gwendolyn Vercher cases. She has written numerous law review and other articles and teaches and lectures widely across the U.S. and internationally. Kathy was a board member with the Animal Legal Defense Fund; helped found the Animal Law Committee of the Cuyahoga County Bar; and was the chair and a founder of the Animal Law Section and the Balance in Legal Education Section of the American Association of Law Schools (AALS). She was also a co-chair of the Clinical Legal Education Section of the AALS, is on the board of the Center for Teaching Peace and is a fellow at the Oxford Centre for Animal Ethics. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “who matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome - Randall Abate  01:30 Kathy's Intro - #animallaw professor & practitioner - #nonviolence activism - "This is one area of law where students can do something today... to change things" - "& they're implicated... what we eat, what we wear" - "It's hard to say 'all day I'm talking about protecting animals' & go home & eat them" 06:39 What's Real? - Raised #Catholic & #republican "Rules bounded, status quo, respected authority... dogmatically religious" - "You weren't supposed to question"... just listen to parents & nuns - Noticing inconsistencies  (in one place girls can be altar servers, in another they can't) - Mid to late #1960's "A lot of questioning" - #Vatican II - Liking justice aspects, not liking treatment of women/indigenous people - Questioning in college - "If people who told me that god existed... were wrong about women... they could be wrong about god" ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there!

Carol is an author, artist, animal activist and scholar whose work focuses on the reality of animals’ lives as important contributors to the biodiversity of this planet. She is Professor Emerita of Design and Dynamic Media and Critical and Cultural Studies at the Emily Carr University of Design, Vancouver, BC. CANADA. Her most recent book is The Creative Lives of Animals. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “who matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome - Other sentientism guests: Marc Bekoff, Lori Marino (forthcoming!), Jessica Pearce 02:11 Carol's Intro - Starting out as an actress but "I didn't like saying other people's words" - Printmaking, art, animal rights activism, animation, writing "I felt like I had a lot to say" - #TomRegan & Nancy & "The Dante Series" - Criticising biotechnology & bioart (people using animals as objects in their art) "lots of friends in the arts who no longer are really my friends" - Helping develop #Criticalanimalstudies  - #ecoart  - "It's very new for people to take animals seriously" - Writing Creative Lives: "Animals are individual creative beings" - Anthropocene & biodiversity - "I was writing so much about animals as victims... [they] are much more than that" 10:30 What's Real? - Italian Catholic upbringing in #pittsburgh  - Rational father & "strongly emotional" women - "Eating the body of Christ" - "I'm not a practising Catholic" - Informed by Buddhism "but not a practising Buddhist either" - "The naturalistic way of looking at things - it's really important" - "Creativity itself is an unknown quantity" - "A universal, multi-species creativity?" - Differing perspectives on the same reality - #EdYong 's "An Immense World" - Reading Annie Dillard's "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek" after a bad car accident - #Physics & "On creativity" by #DavidBohm & "spooky action at a distance." "We are all connected... in a way we're not aware of" - "Once you start reading... you start to be critical of things... my parents... never loooked into what I was reading :)" - Becoming sceptical of #catholicism quite early. 8th grade "I gotta get out of here" - Dante's Inferno as a metaphor for animal experimentation - Humility is critical - #Wicca & #witchcraft & #spirituality  - "Animals are struggling just like we are" - The dangers of reifying animals or "nature" ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there!

Dan is the host of Truth Wanted, a call-in talk show that's part of the Atheist Community of Austin.Truth Wanted focuses on how and why people believe what they believe - and how we can talk about beliefs in more effective ways - whether it’s karma or Christ, Bigfoot or crystals. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “who matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: We discuss: 00:00 Welcome Dan "coming out" as #vegan during Jamie's co-hosting of Truth Wanted 03:08 Dan's Intro Listen to Truth Wanted! Is space real? Are there bug creatures on Mars? "Americans in particular - not super great at the whole #epistemology stuff" 05:07 What's Real? Growing up #Methodist , then switching to a #baptistchurch Community more than theology "your parents went to church so you went to church" "I did believe" Doing evangelical ministry Being baptised twice! Talking to  @Anthony Magnabosco  of  @Street Epistemology  "It was a stepping stone on a journey... I was already deconstructing" "This faith thing doesn't really make sense" Being an "igtheist" (basically an atheist) and a #Sentientist  @Being Reasonable's Mark Solomon https://youtu.be/OybxPFN8Ifc The Bible "doesn't really stack up." Progressive Xtian & Xtian mystic phases Reading  @Sam Harris "I was definitely homophobic... transphobic growing up". "My Christian faith told me it wasn't right, it wasn't natural" "When you have a naturalist worldview it's harder to be homophobic" Changing ethics & politics: abortion, immigration "Christianity was all I knew... I didn't understand how to be a good person outside of Christianity" Struggles of leaving Xtianity. Lacking community (no  @Secular Student Alliance  in Waco) "that was tough" "There would be more athiests if it was more normal" Atheists within religious communities Selective dogmatism: #Qanon , #antivaxx , #goop products, #homeopathy "#cognitivedissonance is a bitch" "When you don't have someone who is actively challenging what you think you can just think what you want" #miracles "Churches aren't places for critical thinking" #epistemology #fideism #dogma Hebrews 11: "faith is the evidence of things not seen" enables any arbitrary belief ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there!

Karen was an animal rights advocate and president of United Poultry Concerns. UPC is a non-profit organization founded in 1990 to address the treatment of domestic fowl in farming – including chickens, turkeys, and ducks. Karen also ran an animal sanctuary. She was the author of several books on veganism and animal rights, including Prisoned Chickens, Poisoned Eggs: An Inside Look at the Modern Poultry Industry (1997) and The Holocaust and the Henmaid's Tale: A Case for Comparing Atrocities (2005). In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “who matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome 01:23 Karen's Intro -  @United Poultry Concerns   - Meeting Viva the chicken - "A lifelong affinity for birds" - Seeing a friend's father killing a hen 05:05 What's Real? - Growing up in Pennsylvania - Catching & killing wildlife "my parents never objected" - Everybody went to some kind of church "that's what we did then... respectable people go to church" - Sunday school "for parents to have some time to themselves" - Parents not very religious - "God didn't make rats, the devil made rats" to rationalise killing - "I was never a believer"... "If I joined the church... I could wear stockings instead of socks" 13:08 What Matters? - "I was always directly affected by others whether they were human or other than human" - Childhood distress: a duck being run over, baby birds falling from nests - #empathy & #compassion as a moral core  21:02 Who Matters? - Father & brothers hunting pheasants, squirrels & rabbits - Realising what father was doing in the cellar - Arguing at the dinner table "I wasn't thinking about who was on my plate" - Father: "Everything hunts the rabbit" - "I relate directly to other creatures - I don't need any belief system at all" - Reading "The First Step" by #leotolstoy . Giving up animal products as the first step of #nonviolence ... "that was really it - I didn't want to eat animal flesh any more... that was in 1974" - #Animaltesting . #EdwardTaub 's primate research #SilverSpringmonkeys - Nurses having to do animal experiments to qualify - Do you need to have a psychopathic detachment to be a vet/doctor? - Being a juvenile probation officer - Being traumatised by SPCA literature on #harpseal slaughter "This was my eye opening experience of institutionalised animal abuse" - Witnessing seal culling in Canada in 1974 - National Geographic asking photographers to damage Beaver habitats to get a good story - Brian Davies' book "Savage Luxury" - Lisa Kemmerer - Cultural/traditional/religious justifications for causing harm... ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there!

Anthony or A.C. is a philosopher and author. In 2011 he founded and became the first Master of New College of the Humanities. Anthony is the author of over 30 books including The Future of Moral Values, What Is Good?, The Meaning of Things, The Good Book & The God Argument. He was a fellow of the World Economic Forum, & is a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature & the Royal Society of Arts. Anthony is a vice-president of Humanists UK & an honorary associate of the National Secular Society. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “who matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome 01:50 Anthony's Intro - "I agree wholeheartedly with... Sentientism" - #humanism  - #Supernaturalism, #naturalism , value & #morality  03:43 What's Real? - A non-religious family - Encountering religions at 13 yrs "preference for one kind of candy vs. another" - Evangelical chaplain at boarding school "he galvanised me" & provided a reading list. "I've read everything & I simply cannot understand how you can believe this stuff" - How Christianity remixes stories from other mythologies. "That demolished the pretentions of Christianity" - "Religions keep their hold mainly by brainwashing the young" - Malign effects of religion e.g. blocking science; "a kind of mental prison" - Joining the #NewAtheist debate with #richarddawkins , #christopherhitchens  - Do gods exist?, should we have a #secular society?, should we have a #humanist morality? - Why atheists & humanists still hold other dogmatic beliefs - "All claims should be defeasible" - "Instead of talking about knowledge, let us talk about rational belief". Belief ratioed to the weight of evidence - There may be fairies in your garden but "it is profoundly irrational to believe it" - The ethics of rationality - "You often hear religious people saying you can't prove there is no god... I'm going to do it now." "in the empirical sense proof means test... like proving steel" - #CarlSagan 's Dragon in the Garage "the claim turns up empty" - Standards of "discovery" in physics 20:57 What Matters? - Spanning the #Is-Ought chasm "I emphatically disagree with Hume" - "Very few people on the planet like to be cold, hungry, alone, in pain, oppressed... tortured... those few people who do like those things are weird" - Mirror neurons, theory of mind & #empathy  - "There is a deeply naturalistic basis to the possibilities of moral behaviour... it takes culture to mess them up" - Tightly linking the good/bad of feeling with the good/bad of ethics ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there!

Sandra describes herself as a vegan foodie, content writer & editor and wife on a mission to empower others to make small, meaningful decisions & actions that will help make the world a better place. She is co-host of VEG Networking Canada, a place where plant-based & vegan companies connect & collaborate. Sandra is the author of the book “Vegan Marketing Success Stories“. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome 01:15 Sandra's Intro - Filipino-canadian - Literature, PR, marketing, writing - Meditating: "This booming voice came to me... & said you're vegan now & you'll always be writing" - Sandra's "The Content Doctor" business - Writing "#vegan Marketing Success Stories" 03:41 What's Real? - "A very #catholic household" - Catholicism in the #phillipines due to #colonisation by Spain - 13 years of Catholic school - Church every Sunday - Sermons: Fundraising & "We don't really welcome gay people" #homophobia "Two of my best friends had just come out" - "That was the last service" - "I never did believe in heaven & hell... metaphors" - "I do believe in an afterlife" - "There's a problem with the whole [Catholic] institution" - Intuition & connecting to past ancestors "they're giving me signs... still here & watching over us" - Why do colonially imposed religions retain such popularity? - The Filipino disapora, challenging colonial restrictions, reclaiming indigenous practices (e.g. tattooing) - Joining #nxivm... later discovered to be a dangerous #cult "If it feels painful - move towards it!" - A clear image from a recently deceased grandfather - Being guided by a deceased cousin in Montreal - "From the little I know of #quantumphysics physics this is all very possible... that's why we have #ghosts " - "The big bang... earliest atoms... that's my definition of god... the creator" - "The potential... of love... we all come from stardust" - Risks of religious & spiritual beliefs - Scams, cults, crystals, alt-medicine, #antivaxx  - "Critical thinking caps" & #redflags  - #Conspirituality podcast. #Yoga #wellness #spirituality  33:46 What & Who Matters? - "Be a good person as much as you can vs. just being consumers" - "I did not care very much for animals"... now vegan -  Documentaries: "Watching #earthlings ... hit me really hard... stop eating meat" - "As soon as the idea of becoming vegan hit my brain... this is it!... it took me 11 years"... ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there!

Jill has been a leading voice in digital media for more than a decade. She’s been published in outlets including MTV, The Huffington Post, and the Village Voice. She served as Head of Content for a popular vegan media platform from 2017-2020, with a reach of more than 50 million per month. She has worked with a number of impact media platforms to help build their traffic and positioning, as well as with leading brands and celebrities working to make the world a more sustainable and ethical space. Jill is the co-founder, CEO and Head of Content for Ethos. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome 01:42 Jill's Intro - Immersed in digital content - Co-founding https://the-ethos.co/ - Vegan media & natural foods industries - The #Conspirituality podcast & #DavidWolfe  03:42 What's Real? - "The religion that governed my house was #bobdylan " - Parents raised #Jewish, father became atheist, "7/11 jewish" mother - Kicked out of hebrew school "one of my father's more proud moments" - Living with dad after parents split - Child of the 80's "you're on your own journey" - Constantine Sandis https://youtu.be/iy0UdN7WTxc - Becoming a mum - Animals' different realities - "We're the chosen people... an egregious statement... how can one group matter more?.. after so much suffering" - #Israel & #palestine  - Fond memories of Jewish culture but "as a rule to live by... not at all" - "this omnipresent god... directing every moment of my life... I wanted the autonomy" - #Agnostic. Open to the idea of "some sort of god" - #dogma  - The risks of the #wellness / #spirituality worlds. #antivaxx, #Qanon, #alternativemedicine  - Open-mindedness, evidence & gut-feel - #DavidWolfe shows a #moonlanding #conspiracy video - Distrust of authority - Scepticism about vaccines didn't seem too serious "to each their own". Then #covid19 hits - "I very much prefer to have science in my corner... but sometimes you can just tell" - A denial, scepticism, gullibility spectrum? - David Wolfe "leveraging science when it supported his narrative but slamming it when it didn't" - Gossip as "a way to keep the tribal community safe" - "Conspiracy theories... we use them unconsciously to defend ourselves" 32:10 What & Who Matters? - "I don't think you need religion to know good from bad" -  @Sam Harris   - Raising a #vegan child "she asked what it was and I said that used to be a pig's stomach or back..." - "She seems very much to understand that basic level of compassion" ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there! Thanks Graham.

Matt is Press Coordinator and an investigator for Direct Action Everywhere (DxE). As part of his activism he has conducted animal farm investigations, been threatened with prison for rescuing farm animals from abuse and pranked NewsMax and FoxNews by posing as the CEO of Smithfield Foods – exposing to millions of viewers the damage their industry does to non-human animals, human animals and to the planet. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome 02:50 Matt's Intro - DxE press & investigations 03:28 Eyes open to animals - Deer hunting uncles. "Factory farms everywhere" in Iowa - 4 yrs old "I don't want to eat animals" - Family push back - A religious family "God gave us animals for food" - Being "a silent vegetarian" at school... in secret... feeling shame - "Good friends of mine... through 13 yrs of grade school... never knew I was vegetarian" - An aunt: "you're going to die if you don't eat animals" - Uncles painting a dead deer's nose red for Xmas - "These people around me are monstrous" - The dissonance of "be kind" messages in kindergarten 10:24 What's Real? - "In adulthood I'm not a religious person" - New atheists, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris - As a child: "The ethics smacked me in the face" (Problem of Evil) - As an adult "facts & rationality" - Jehovah's Witness dad... "I was hating the prospect of doing the door to door evangelising" - Shunning. It's worse where the JW community has more power - "#Freewill is an illusion" so "I don't... have any anger towards anybody" - JW "We have will, we make choices, but they're not 'free'". Removing #retribution from the justice system? #MoralLuck - An investigation "As cruel a practice as you can imagine" #VentilationShutDown... "The COO shows up ... I was straining my free will determinism in that moment"  - "Guilt & shame can be useful" 25:11 What & Who Matters? - #Utilitarianism ? - "High-minded philosophical ideals... often used to launder right-wing ideas" - "Sorry humans... but I have to put my energy towards the 99.99%" - #Offsetting & totalising utilitarianism - Animal agri as a core case most ethical systems should reject ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there! Thanks Graham.

Alene is the President and Founder of Legal Impact for Chickens. She graduated from Harvard Law School, clerked for a federal judge and then started litigating for animals. She has worked at People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), the Animal Legal Defense Fund, and The Good Food Institute. Alene is licensed to practice law in New York, the District of Columbia, and California. Alene is committed to helping chickens to honor the memories of her two beloved avian family members, Conrad and Zeke. In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome 02:08 Alene's Intro - "Making factory farm cruelty a liability... we sue companies for abusing animals on factory farms" 02:44 What's Real? - Raised #atheist "they didn't teach me anything about god" - A friend & camp counsellor talking about someone who is always watching you - even indoors! - Mum: "Just don't argue with them because you don't want to make them upset" - "I'm an atheist today... because I've never been encouraged to be religious I think I have a much more positive view of #religion " - "It's kind of hard to know if anything's real... I don't feel like I have evidence of anything at all... even that I exist!" - "I do assume there's ground I can walk on... that the things I see are real" - "Day to day I live very much like a naturalistic person" - "There's probably a world outside my body" - Imperfect memory & perception & dreaming - Arbitrary beliefs - "How do I know my mind is functioning correctly?... it helps me have more empathy for people that think very differently" - Risks & harms of bad epistemology - #naturalism vs. #dogma vs. #fideism (#faith) vs. fake naturalism 22:25 What Matters? - "#morality comes from psychology... humans just evolved morality... part of it comes from society" - Descriptive & normative ethics - Relativism - "I have this intuitive sense that suffering is bad & joy is good" - Utilitarianism - Equality - It's hard to convince a psychopath to be moral - "Pick somebody who already cares about suffering... & show them how whoever I'm concerned about is suffering" - #Consequentialism, #virtue ethics, #deontology, #feminist care ethics - Offsetting one being's suffering with the flourishing of another? - #pluralism  38:28 Who Matters? - "I care about animals a lot" ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there! Thanks Graham.

Chaitanya is Assistant Professor at the Tata Institute of Social Sciences (TISS) in the Centre for Regulatory Policy and Governance. He has a PhD in Economics. Chaitanya’s research interests include economic development strategies in the global south, structural change, economic development and regulatory policy, urban economics, and non-anthropocentric strategies/alternatives to anthropocentric value systems in progress and conservation including food systems research (and maybe Sentientist Economics?) In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?” Sentientism is "evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings." The video of our conversation is here on YouTube. We discuss: 00:00 Welcome 01:42 Chaitanya's Intro - Economics as a way to improve the world 03:45 What's Real? - Growing up in a #sindhi family in India - #pakistan , #india & partition - Having a #hindu temple at home - An #atheist  father "he didn't believe in all those things" who turned to religion after a difficult time - "I don't believe in god" - "Religion has always been a tool to marginalise different sections of the society" - Rejecting faith - Degree, masters, PhD... "questioning things... critical thinking" - Before then, unthinkingly accepting what had been told - "The way you think has real impact on society" - "There are several ways of living life and one has agency" - Evidence & reason, ethical & systemic critiques of religion - "It's a very hard task to grasp reality" - "I would rather... analyse things around me as they are" - #pluralism m - Naturalistic views of relatedness & interconnectedness - Finding a balance between defeatist humility & arrogant hubris 22:54 What Matters? - Being sensitive, as a child, to humans & non-humans - Growing up in a patriarchal society - "Not cheating, working hard... stopping at red lights" 26:49 Who Matters? - Sindhis typically eat meat, but father said "I always felt it was not the right thing to do" - Buying meat from a public slaughterhouse "I did not feel comfortable but I used to love it [eating meat]" - Family gatherings centred around #meat  "everyone around me was relishing... & my father was telling me this is not the right thing to do" - Fighting about eating meat at 4-5 years old - Visiting the #slaughterhouse "this is where it comes from" - #sentience & the dangers of human-defined moral scope... ...and much more. Full show notes at Sentientism.info. Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info. Join our "I'm a Sentientist" wall via this simple form. Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on FaceBook. Come join us there! Thanks Graham.