
When the Facts Change
Hosted by journalist Bernard Hickey, When the Facts Change is your essential weekly guide to the intersection of economics, business and politics in Aotearoa New Zealand. Presented by The Spinoff together with Kiwibank.Visit kiwibank.co.nz to find out how Kiwibank are making Kiwi better off
Latest episodes

Dec 23, 2021 • 53min
Eight years to carbon zero
The UN Climate Change Conference in Glasgow earlier this year removed all doubt about how fast we need to cut climate emissions. If we’re to keep warming below 1.5 degrees, we need to make big changes by 2030 – two or three decades to build rail lines and wait for Tiwai Point to close won’t cut it any more. So what needs to be done to rapidly engineer a just transition to zero carbon in less than a decade? Bernard Hickey talks to Our Energy CEO John Campbell about how virtual energy trading of distributed solar energy generation could help, and climate activist Paul Winton explains why we have to reconfigure our existing roads for cycling, walking and buses ASAP. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dec 16, 2021 • 45min
Our discounted future
The social discount rate is one of the tools the government uses to calculate the cost benefit analysis on long-term investments. And according to a report released earlier this week, our social discount rate has been too high for more than 30 years. In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at the way the government makes decisions around intergenerational issues like climate change, child poverty and housing affordability, and how things like discount rates have disadvantaged future generations. To find out more, he talks to parliamentary commissioner for the environment Simon Upton, who’s calling on Treasury to lower New Zealand’s discount rate, and public sector analyst Jess Berentson-Shaw from The Workshop, who has seen how the use of high discount rates has frozen the public service in time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dec 9, 2021 • 46min
The shipping forecast
Like the rest of the world, Aotearoa’s ports are clogged with containers, trucks, ships and growing shipping bills. But it’s not all because of Covid worker shortages and lockdowns. In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at how the many weird economic effects of Covid are playing out through the world’s logistics chains, from frantic factories to empty store shelves and even Adele’s new album. Guests: Chris Edwards, president of the Custom Brokers and Freight Forwarders Federation, and professor Tava Olsen, director of the Centre of Supply Chain Management at the University of Auckland Business School. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dec 7, 2021 • 48min
Bonus episode: A new way of banking, with Steve Jurkovich
Steve Jurkovich has been CEO of Kiwibank for three years, during which time he has introduced a raft of changes – from embracing te ao Māori to registering as a B Corp. He tells The Spinoff's Duncan Greive what's driven this reimagining of the organisation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dec 2, 2021 • 58min
Can we make housing affordable without crashing the market?
This week new National leader Chris Luxon was asked a question that was posed to Jacinda Ardern and Judith Collins before last year’s election: Do you want house prices to fall? It’s a curly one for politicians to answer – how do they make housing more affordable while at the same time preventing the market from collapsing? In this episode Bernard Hickey attempts to figure out how it could be done, and how long it might take to happen. He talks to Sense Partners economist Kirdan Lees, who co-wrote the ground-breaking analysis of the bipartisan ‘Townhouse Nation’ accord, architect and urban design writer Jade Kake and Green MP for Auckland Central Chlöe Swarbrick. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nov 25, 2021 • 45min
You deserve a raise
New Zealand’s Labour Cost Index showed a 2.4% wage increase last year. But when you set that against an inflation increase of 4.9% over the same period, in real terms the average New Zealander took a 2.5% pay cut. In a tight labour market, we should in theory all be marching into our boss’s office and asking for a raise – so why isn’t this happening? To find out, Bernard Hickey talks to CTU chief economist Craig Renney and Kiwibank economist Mary Jo Vergara. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nov 18, 2021 • 55min
What’s behind the booming art market?
Back in March, a virtually unheard-of digital artist called Mike Winkelmann, aka Beeple, made a collage of 5,000 pieces of his digital art into an NFT and sold it via auction house Christie’s. When the hammer finally fell, bids had reached over US$69million. In just the last couple of weeks, some similarly eye-watering prices have been fetched in New Zealand’s fine art market, with Michael Parekowhai’s sculpture 'A Peak In Darien' selling at auction for a record-breaking NZ$2.05million. In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at how the rise of NFT art and the state of the world’s art markets in general have a direct connection to what’s happening in financial markets and the monetary system globally, and where it’s all headed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nov 16, 2021 • 44min
Bonus episode: The rise and rise of cyber fraud
Recorded during Fraud Awareness Week, Simon Day speaks to Neil Hallett, the New Zealand Operations Manager for IDCARE Australia and New Zealand’s national identity and cyber support service. Kiwibank is a key partner of IDCARE, and the bank refers its customers who have been victims of cyber crime to the charity’s support services. IDCARE offers victims a trained case management officer to guide them through the practical steps for what they need to do to respond to the fraud. Neil discussed why Covid-19 has created fertile ground for cyber crime, what makes people vulnerable to scams, and what you need to do to protect yourself. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nov 11, 2021 • 39min
The KiwiSaver provider and developer teaming up on housing
Back in 2008 New Zealand's property development sector went bust, and it scarred people for over a decade. How do we move past that now that we’ve got all this KiwiSaver money which could be used to build houses much more affordably? Simplicity managing director Sam Stubbs and NZ Living director Shane Brealey join Bernard Hickey to talk about their big plans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nov 4, 2021 • 56min
Climate change and house prices
Last month the Reserve Bank of New Zealand released its 2021 Climate Change Report, the first significant report it has released on the topic since launching its Climate Change Strategy in 2018. In this episode, Bernard takes a deep dive into what climate change means for monetary policy, and the one thing that dominates not just New Zealand’s economy but our society in general – house prices. With Reserve Bank governor Adrian Orr and Victoria University economist Belinda Storey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices