
When the Facts Change
Hosted by journalist Bernard Hickey, When the Facts Change is your essential weekly guide to the intersection of economics, business and politics in Aotearoa New Zealand. Presented by The Spinoff together with Kiwibank.Visit kiwibank.co.nz to find out how Kiwibank are making Kiwi better off
Latest episodes

Feb 22, 2022 • 32min
Bonus episode: The power of diversity and inclusion
This year marks 50 years of the gay liberation movement in New Zealand – 50 years of fight, advocacy, celebration, progress and frustration in the Rainbow community’s struggle for equality and equity. In recognition of the Pride festival this month, Liz Knight, chief risk officer at Kiwibank and a proud member of the Rainbow community, and Jess Segal, senior manager of Leadership, and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Kiwibank, joined The Spinoff's Simon Day to discuss how far New Zealand has come – and the work that still needs to be done. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Feb 17, 2022 • 54min
Aluminium prices vs our climate plans
The price of aluminium has exploded in the last six months – so much so that Rio Tinto now wants to delay the closure of the aluminium smelter it owns at Tiwai Point beyond the planned end date of 2024. But this decision has thrown a big spanner into the works of climate change planners, investors and politicians, who had been working under the assumption that, come 2024, the 13% of the nation’s power supply that Tiwai Point uses would become available to help cities decarbonise their transport fleets. To find out more about what Tiwai Point staying would do for our climate plans, Bernard talks to climate change minister James Shaw and renewable energy expert Rebecca Peer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Feb 10, 2022 • 44min
Light rail’s heavy carbon footprint
Building a light rail line between Auckland’s CBD and the airport sounds like a good thing for the climate and reducing transport emissions. But the new plan to dig a long tunnel and lay a new railway line will actually generate an extra 400,000 tonnes of carbon emissions in its first 10 years, and take until 2040 before it starts being carbon negative. Still sound like a good idea? In this episode, Bernard Hickey talks to transport minister Michael Wood and economist Andrew Schoultz about how the government’s light rail plans fit with their climate targets, and how business and government planners are incorporating things like emissions forecasts, shadow carbon prices and discount rates into their planning. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Feb 3, 2022 • 53min
Why is everything getting more expensive?
Who or what is responsible for all the price inflation we’ve been seeing lately? And how do we know when we’re paying too much? Bernard Hickey talks to economic consultant Donal Curtin (previously of the New Zealand Commerce Commission) and Kiwibank chief economist Jarrod Kerr. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jan 27, 2022 • 44min
A big year for local politics
All the political roads in housing and climate change lead to council chambers rather than parliament these days. This week, we look ahead to the high stakes local elections in October, which will decide whether much progress is made in the next decade to deal with our twin emergencies. Bernard talks to Wellington mayoral candidate Tory Whanau about how tough 2021 was in local politics, and the massive year ahead. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jan 20, 2022 • 33min
A big year for the economy
Against all expectations a year ago, the global economy ended 2021 wracked by inflation and a debate about whether it’s transitory (and so can be ignored by central banks) or bedding in (and should be beaten down with higher interest rates). Bernard talks with Kiwibank’s Jarrod Kerr about what’s happening in our housing market and how well our exporters have done to offset the collapses of international tourism and education exports. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jan 18, 2022 • 36min
Bonus episode: The dangers of debt
Natalie Vincent is the chief executive of Ngā Tangata Microfinance Trust, which works with New Zealanders experiencing financial hardship to provide them with small, safe, interest-free loans and mentorship to help them get – and stay – out of debt. The last two years have been the busiest in the organisation’s history, and December 2021 brought the most referrals for support yet. Natalie tells Simon Day how easy it can be for people to get into financial difficulty when one crisis puts them into debt, how hard it can be to get out and the importance of building financial capability and wellbeing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jan 13, 2022 • 31min
A big year for housing
Bernard Hickey is joined by Ockham founder Mark Todd to dig through a massive year for housing. They talk about the record high number of houses being built despite all sorts of supply chain grief and skills shortages, plus whether the ‘Townhouse Nation’ law changes rammed through Parliament will actually make a difference, or leave us regretting the prescriptive legislation in years to come. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jan 6, 2022 • 41min
Summer reissue: An epic intergenerational wealth transfer
When the Facts Change is taking a short break over summer. We'll be back with new episodes soon, but until then here's one of our most popular episodes of 2021.From July: Over the last 30 years, a generation of voters and politicians made a decision to stop investing in infrastructure – it’s expensive, and it means you can’t cut taxes or keep rates low. Now we’re seeing the collective catastrophe of this underinvestment landing on our heads in the form of labour shortages and massive housing affordability problems. In this episode, Bernard Hickey reveals an intergenerational wealth transfer worth $1 trillion, and how it could be atoned for and reversed – if only to ensure the culprits can enjoy watching their grandchildren grow up healthy, warm and in person. Guests: Ockham Residential founder Mark Todd and Stephen Sutorius, owner of Thames Pacific. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dec 30, 2021 • 1h 1min
Summer reissue: The impossible dream of home ownership
When the Facts Change is taking a short break over summer. We'll be back with new episodes soon, but until then here's one of our most popular episodes of 2021.From June: For a growing number of Wellingtonians, the dream of owning a home in the city is all but dead. And it's the same story in other parts of the country too – successive governments have sat on their hands afraid that doing anything to create more housing might drive down prices, and as a result median rents and house prices have skyrocketed out of reach. To find out more about the costs of this housing inaction and Wellington's Spatial Plan, Bernard talks to Ashok Jacob from Renters United, Alison Anitawaru Cole from Victoria University, director of the Growing Up in New Zealand study Susan Morton and Kiwibank senior economist Jeremy Couchman. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices