Beyond Organic Wine

This episode is the last of the Quebec series, and it’s such a great one to end with… because it makes me miss Quebec and want to go back for a visit again as soon as possible. This one is special for several reasons: first, I got to interview a family… or part of the family who farms and makes wine as Vignoble Pigeon Hill. Kevin, Matthew and Trisha Shufelt treated Maxime and me to a beautiful tour, tasting, and conversation. And we finally got to see some sheep in action in the vineyard! And we got to hear a lot about how they make sheep work at Pigeon Hill, from the size of the flock, to why sheep are better than deer for eating, to frequency of movement, breeds, parasites, using winter hay feed to compost the vines. We also talk about frost seeding of cover crops, we meets some pigs who are living at the vineyard forest edge. Kevin tells a fun story about Elmer Swenson and why you have to be careful when planting Lacrosse and St. Pepin. We discuss a lot about the differences in the growth and resistances of the hybrid varieties, and how they’ve learned to pay attention, get to know their vines, and prune, train, trellis and canopy manage them somewhat individualistically, according to the needs and proclivities of the vines. They aren’t farming by recipe, but by learning their vines, paying attention, seeing how the individual differences benefit the whole and provide contingencies. We get some real talk about the challenges of organic farming in Quebec, and how sometimes it’s like being an exhausted marathoner and staggering over the finish line at harvest. And I found it really exciting that Trish got into wine because of learning about regenerative farming. Her excitement, and all of theirs really, for the health of their soil and plants and animals and fostering biodiversity was incredibly encouraging… it gave me hope, honestly, and I wish I could show you their farm so you could see how it reflects their enthusiasm and care. The other thing I wish I could show you rather than tell you about is the side by side comparison of their vinifera rows and their hybrid rows. The hybrids can grow up on a high wire cordon, so the sheep can easily graze among the vines all year and the understory plants grow long and lush, pulling down CO2 and enriching the soil health and biodiversity in multiple ways. The vinifera must be grown low to the ground, and because of this it must be mowed in the alleys and tilled in the rows. Tending the hybrids is pleasant and ergonomic, while tending the vinifera requires constant stooping or kneeling, and Kevin talks about praying to Pinot…. And the vinifera requires significantly more sprays 5 to 10 times as much as the hybrids, and they must be covered with geotextiles… another expense… in the winter. But Pigeon Hill feels compelled to grow some vinifera because the market, our dominant wine culture which I call "vinifera culture," still demands it. And the side by side comparisons are so stark it’s hard not to see the absurdity of our prejudices that make this kind of viticulture necessary. I haven’t even mentioned their Marquette. It’s one of their favorites… Kevin kind of fell in love with wine because of Marquette… and now they’re making what I would argue are some of the best Marquettes in the world.... and they’re almost zero zero. Tasting one of Matt’s inspirations in the cellar gave me confidence there will be more world class wines for years to come from pigeon hill. https://vignoblepigeonhill.com/en/ If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks! 

My guest for this episode is Simon Naud of Vignoble La Bauge. La Bauge is the first Canadian vineyard to be Regenerative Organic Certified by the Regenerative Organic Alliance. Knowing what I now know about Quebec it doesn’t surprise me that the first certified Regenerative Organic vineyard is here. Simon is also a past recipient of the best winemaker or vigneron for Quebec. When you see the trellising style of these cold climate, high fungal pressure areas, the integration of grazing animals seems common sense… and because I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and have worked in a one of the first of these vineyards that was designed specifically for sheep integration, I forget that it is still kind of a revelation when that connection is made between animals and the understory of a vineyard trained to an elevated trellis. But the development of this system happened organically, so to speak, at La Bauge, and that makes it all the more impressive. We talk about some of the really inventive ways they integrate sheep, and I was especially impressed for the first time about how llamas might be a great alternative to livestock guardian dogs. We talk about a new trial block they’ve planted where every third row is not grapes but native plants and berry shrubs as a potential way of reducing fungal pressures. And there are several handfuls of insights and ideas for better winegrowing and zero zero winemaking. But of all the things that impressed me at La Bauge, I was most impressed by the fact that Simon and some of the other Canadian team visits the home of their Mexican workers in Mexico during the winter to visit and help with the coffee harvest for a couple weeks. I don’t want to over-hype this, but I’ve never heard of any other winery owners who go visit their workers and their families in their country on vacation, let alone lend a hand with some of their farm work. This kind of action means that you actually have a relationship with specific people, rather than just fulfill your labor needs with some placeholder and replaceable migrant worker. We may work and live in a world that devalues certain people and types of work, but we don’t have to let that shape our own values. Within an imperfect system, this shows there are ways we can profoundly shift the way we think about our relationship with our community and who we include in it and how we can deepen our lives and relationships by being more inclusive… more human. Enjoy. https://labauge.com/en If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks! 

On June 21, 2025 I gave a talk at the Carnival Brettanomyces in Utrecht, Holland, virtually. It was 40 degrees Celsius or 104 degrees farenheit in Holland at that time. The original title of this talk was called Making Wine for My Community, and you need to know the original title –  because I structured this talk as a three part breakdown of the assumptions implicit for most people when they hear it. So I reference that original title throughout. But I named this episode Vinifera Culture Is Dead because that sentiment is at the heart of this talk, and really it’s time to call it. Vinifera Culture is dead and the ecological revolution of wine has begun. If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks! 

My guest for this episode is Michael Marler who, with his partner Véronique Hupin, owns and farms and makes wine as Vignoble Les Pervenches in Quebec and has been doing this for 25 years. Mike has twice been selected as the best winegrower or Vigneron in Quebec, and he’s the only person to have received this honor twice. 75% of his vines are vinifera, with 25% Seyval Blanc, and he specializes in Chardonnay partly because he bought a farm that had old Chardonnay vines already growing on it. Those vines are now about 30 years old, which is pretty remarkable in Quebec, and he talks about how he farms to make this possible. He farms organically and biodynamically and has been an inspiration and mentor for quite a few winegrowers in Quebec. We talk about the benefits of the Scott Henry Trellis, and how Mike has figured out how to live with and control Japanese beetles… and if you have issues with these beetles his advice is smart and practical and comes from a holistic ecological perspective. Mike’s expertise as a winegrower results in some incredible wine. Mike allowed us to taste three of his Chardonnays from barrel, and, no exaggeration, they were the favorite three Chardonnays of my life. Seriously… if you are a Chardonnay lover, seek Mike’s out… they are globally exceptional… Holy Grail stuff.  Also, he allows uninnoculated fermentations, doesn’t filter, and doesn’t add sulfites or anything else, so these were zero zero wines. This conversation ends as we head into the cellar. There is another recording in the cellar of tasting those Chardonnays and a few other wines, and how Mike makes them, and I’m going to release that on the Beyond Organic Wine patreon. Within the first minute of meeting Mike, as you’ll hear, I tell him he looks like a farmer. Just to be clear, I meant that as a big compliment. I think farmers make better wine. But also, Mike tells about how and why he started farming organically, and I’ve found once again that someone who spends their life in the landscape they make wine from has a much greater chance of wanting to farm more ecologically. A big thanks to my host on this Quebec adventure, Maxime, who was also part of this conversation, and a thanks to Mike for his time and this conversation. Enjoy! https://lespervenches.com/ If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks! 

I’m excited to introduce another incredible and relatively new Quebec winery, Domaine Oak Hill… and I love that it was named for a tree, and I met that tree and it is incredible… and worthy of having a winery named after it. I’ll even have a photo of Maxime and my guest and the owner of Oak Hill, Louise Macdonald, standing under and dwarfed by the oak. Louise, with her partner Sylvain Lalonde, farm Oak Hill biodynamically and make zero-zero wines from all hybrid grapes. Louise makes two versions of wine from the Petite Pearl grape that were the best that I’ve ever tasted. There’s some great extra audio that I’ll be putting on Patreon for subscribers where she talks about how she makes one of them. Enjoy this live recording of a couple of Quebecois who stir equisetum prep with a hockey stick, think holistically about their winegrowing, and make some of the finest biodynamic wine by adding nothing and taking nothing away from what their Oak Hill gives them.  https://www.domaineoakhill.vin/ If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks! 

I’m so excited to bring you this special series on Quebec wine over the next few weeks, and I think you’ll soon realize why. Quebec might be 25 years ahead of most of the wine world. The innovation, adaptative strategies, and ecological approach to expressing something unique about their land, sets an example of the path forward for dominant wine culture. But the one thing you can’t hear on a podcast is the quality of the wine. So let me tell you: It’s fantastic. I had multiple best-I’ve-ever-had versions of several grape varieties, and tasted incredible renditions of classic styles with new cultivars as well as mouth-watering brand new styles of wine born of the unique qualities of the grapes that the Quebecois have embraced to be able to grow beyond organically in their climate.  So let’s start the way we should start any momentous occasion… with bubbles! The first stop on my first day in Canada was Domaine Bergeville where I got to talk with Marc Théberge, the co-owner and winemaker. Marc was sun-kissed with a bright farmers tan peeking out from under his t-shirt as he greeted us in front of his tasting room. This is not someone who farms or makes wine by work, but a true vigneron with hands-on at every step in the process who, with his partner Eve, started saving in their youth to be able to finally establish Domaine Bergeville with a goal to make the best sparkling wine in Quebec. I think they might be doing it, and they’re doing it using organic and biodynamically certified farming with hybrid grapes. https://domainebergeville.ca/en/ If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks! 

My guest is Laura Barrett, and she’s been the winemaker at Clif Family winery in Napa for over 10 years. I met Laura when she was on a panel I moderated for Napa Green earlier this year. She’s got some really great things to say about working for a B corp and the farming they do at Clif Family… which has been organic from the beginning and is now introducing regenerative practices. None of that is out of the ordinary for me, but then… the majority of the interview is a technical, step-by-step discussion of the process of making a top tier Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon. If you haven’t been listening to the podcast you might not know that Cabernet has been my primary example of global monoculture run amok, and that Napa Valley represents the epicenter of a problematic dominant vinifera-culture in the Americas to me. Having said all that, there are a few other perspectives that I’d like to acknowledge. First, Cabernet Sauvignon is just a grape variety. It’s not its fault that some humans have fetishized it and planted it everywhere. And, to be honest, it’s a pretty sturdy grape as far as vinifera goes. It’s not too disease prone, not too finicky, and can take some weather extremes and still produce tasty grapes. And dammit, it can make some pretty delicious wine too. I mean there’s a reason it’s the second most planted grape on earth. What it represents doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate its positive qualities. The same is true of the idyllic Napa Valley region. It’s beauty and desirability are why it has become such an unaffordable place to grow and make wine for most people besides the very wealthiest. Also, this episode is not about natural winemaking. Instead, we explore what I would consider to be the epitome of spare-no-expense technical winemaking today in 2025. We’re talking optical sorters, glycol jacketed temperature controlled tanks, programmed pump-overs, ML inoculations, and the whole shebang… including Jesus juice. Though I might not opt to make my wine this way, the process fascinates me in both a journalistic and historic way. And Laura readily admits that this is just one of many ways to make a wine… it just happens to be the current industry standard for some of the highest priced wines in the world.   And Laura shares some really practical technical winemaking knowledge and tools that could help or inspire you no matter how you make your wine. The truth is that I care very little about how someone makes their wine. What you do in the cellar is a personal and philosophical choice, or sometimes a logistical or economic choice, but it doesn’t really impact me. I can choose to drink your wine or not. This is why I don’t often record winemaking episodes. On the other hand, I care very deeply about how you grow your wine. What you do in the vineyard is an environmental choice with global impacts, and I can’t opt out of your treatment of the earth. We’re all on the same space-boat. So I’m really glad to feature wineries like Clif Family, who are farming in a way that protects and enhances the health of the earth, while also taking care of their employees and community.   https://www.cliffamily.com/ If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks!

Christian Cain does contract grazing for vineyards and orchards in Northern California with sheep and goats with his company Perennial Grazing. “We are members of natural communities: what we do to them, we do to ourselves. Only by nurturing them can we nurture ourselves. Palates link cultures with landscapes and moderating the impacts of palates on human and environmental health will require changes in the kinds of foods [and wines!] we produce and consume…” That’s Fred Provenza and others from the article titled “Is Grassfed Meat and Dairy Better for Human and Environmental Health?”  I love that statement that “palates link cultures with landscapes” In this episode I speak with contract grazer Christian Cain about the work that he does with his company Perennial Grazing in Northern California. You’ll discover, as I did, that Christian is a very thoughtful person who was inspired by Masanobu Fukuoka and Alan Savory, among others. So we discuss not only the practical considerations that will be very valuable everyone who is planning or considering working with a contract grazer, but also we dig into how regeneration of a landscape with well managed animals actually works. What should you expect when working with a contract grazer? How much does it cost? Will my vineyard benefit from grazing? Christian answers these questions and more. This is packed with juicy insights and important information for anyone who wants to integrate grazing animals in their vineyard or orchard, or for anyone who wants to learn about soil health and how beyond organic, regenerative viticulture translates into more delicious wine.  https://www.perennialgrazing.org/ Reid Griggs et al: Sources and Assembly of Microbial Communities in Vineyards as a Functional Component of Winegrowing ”The microbial ecosystems within vineyards exert critical influences on grapevine health and wine quality.” Here's the completely useless French study on drought tolerance of various varieties of grapevines, used erroneously to suggest hybrids have poor drought tolerance: Quantifying the grapevine xylem embolism resistance spectrum to identify varieties and regions at risk in a future dry climate If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks!

This is part 2 of my interview the Dan Rinke of Art + Science. We get into even more specifics of how he makes his holistic farm of vines and trees and animals work with very little inputs, his lessons and insights from multiple years of running both egg and meat chickens through his vineyard, his experience as an organic transition advisor, and much more. At one point Dan mentions how his orchard planting was influenced by Michael Phillips, and I didn’t want to interrupt the flow during the conversation, but I should mention now that there is a fantastic interview with Michael Phillips in the Beyond Organic Wine library, which I feel very fortunate to have recorded in the year before he died. Check it out if you haven’t, and check out part 1 with Dan Rinke if you haven’t. https://www.artandsciencenw.com/ If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks!

This episode is part 1 of a two part episode with Dan Rinke of Art + Science Cidery and Winery in Oregon. The conversation was interrupted by technical difficulties after about 45 minutes, which was plenty of time to get to hear about Dan’s ecological journey with wine, and how his love of winemaking turned him into a crazy beyond organic wine and cider grower and maker. Dan has had a pretty serious career in organic and biodynamic vineyards and cellars in California and Oregon, and he and Kim Hamblin started Art + Science together in 2011. Kim is a fabulous artist, and you’ll see her artwork on their website and labels. The first wine of Dan’s that I tasted was a slightly fizzy, zero-zero, carbonically feremented in amphora field blend of hybrid and vinifera grapes… at a tasting that was otherwise almost entirely Oregon Pinot Noir… so it kinda stood out to me.  Talking to him has been the same kind of experience. https://www.artandsciencenw.com/ If you like this podcast, please subscribe & leave a great review.  You Can Support this podcast by subscribing via patreon. Or by donating or taking action at: Beyond Organic Wine or just spread the word... thanks!