Humans of Martech

In this series we profile a recent marketing grad or a current student and answer some of their most pressing questions about the world of martech and how to be happy in your future marketing career. Milan Fatoric, listener and recent University of Ottawa graduate joins the show as our third featured #topmartechprospect.Milan's question for us: What are the top 3 things you would tell every marketing student or recent grad to STOP doing?Here's some of the takeaways:1. Stop chasing a salary, chase interesting problems to solve, the money will follow2. Stop trying to establish yourself as an expert right out of school, instead, get a job and a side hustle and build credibility. Let others call you an expert.3. Stop relying on job boards to get a job you really want, instead, reach out to and hangout with people that are in jobs you want.  --Show notes:Reach out to Milan on LinkedIn for a coffee or to connect: https://www.linkedin.com/in/milanfatoric/--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

In this series we profile a recent marketing grad or a current student and answer some of their most pressing questions about the world of martech and how to be happy in your future marketing career. Augustine Karczmarczyk, listener and University of Ottawa student joins the show as our second featured #topmartechprospect.Augustine's question for us: When it comes to building a personal brand, how can one balance publicity and privacy?  Can you be credible while concealed, or is being out in the open something you simply must embrace until you’ve established a presence?Check out the episode for JT's full rant on why you don't need to be an influencer. --This is next part is from Augustine: Hey, thanks for being one of six people in the world to look at podcast show notes! You’re probably a librarian or simply here by mistake – but EITHER way, I’m glad you’re reading this. I must have been too starstruck during our recording to mention that I welcome LinkedIn connections here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/augustinek/ If you want to talk timber frames, off-grid housing, or a freelance project, please reach out! If you haven’t heard yet, I’m a “top martech prospect” sooo, you might want to act fast! ;) I also can’t pass up the chance to put my personal website https://augustinek.com on here too for a sweet SEO backlink boost. Look out “Saint Augustine of Hippo” – I’ve got your ranking in my sights. All the best & talk soon!--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

In this series we profile a recent marketing grad or a current student and answer some of their most pressing questions about the world of martech and how to be happy in your future marketing career. Justin Silver, listener and University of Ottawa student joins the show as our first featured #topmartechprospect.Justin's question for us: What does your “starter pack” for digital marketers” look like?Check out the meme we used to answer this question.Posting on Reddit: “how do I get a job without experience?”. Don’t post this question on social. Want experience? Market yourself. Build a website. Build a social media audience.Last minute changes. Despite a documented process, there’s always a last minute campaing request to hit quota. You just have to embrace it. Email is fast, but use it wisely. Manager in your title. Everyone is a marketing manager these days. Marketing has it’s own milatiristic understanding of rank. Marketers love to invent titles for themselves. You need to realise that titles are secondary to the things you build. Friendly reminders. Are you really running a marketing operations project if you aren’t sending weekly “friendly reminders” to people who have missed deadlines?ABM. Email everyone in the company, with the same unpersonnalized email, non stop. Don’t. Do. This. Fire extinguisher. Carve out some firefighting time on your calendar if you’re in MOPs. Things break. Things suddenly become priorities. Looking at the martech landscape and thinking “I need one of each”. FOMO in martech is a real thing. I’m not using x or y and I’m missing out. Digital marketing isn’t about having all of the tech. It’s about using your tech to the most that you can. Pocket talk translator for integrating tools together. Your CRM calls them leads, your marketing automation tool calls them people, your analytics tool calls them users. Translation required. Gotta get on . Bernie Mitts expired in what? 2 days? You don’t have to be an early adopter for everything. Loading screens for days. Whether it’s a big Marketo insteance or a long time frame report in GA, marketers battle with slow reports every day. You shouldn’t need a gaming PC to run your automation software.--Show notes:Justin's LinkedIn Profile: www.linkedin.com/in/justin-silver-14b393108Justin's site: https://bit.ly/3cCSMPkConference mentioned: Legacy conference.--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

Steffen Hedebrandt is co-founder of Dreamdata.io. Transcripted borrowed from here.For a deep dive into attribution see this article.Phil Gamache:What's up, guys? Welcome to the Humans of MarTech podcast. His name is Jon Taylor, my name is Phil Gamache. Our mission is to future-proof the humans behind the tech so you can have a successful and happy career in marketing.Phil Gamache:Today on the show, we have a super special guest. We're joined by Steffen Hedebrandt. Steffen got his start in the world of marketing doing some SEO and some growth consultancy in the startup world. And he moved to Oslo in Norway to work in sales/BizDev for a company called Elance, which would eventually become Upwork after the oDesk acquisition. And he stayed there for three and a half years and moved back to Copenhagen and took a position as Head of Marketing at Airtame, a wireless HTMI product startup which John and I know very well. And at some point during your time at Airtame, you solved some pretty cool big attribution problems with some custom engines, and you started to get this itch about starting your own company.Phil Gamache:In the summer of 2019, you, Ole and Lars, both former SVPs of Trustpilot made the plunge and started DreamData. So today the main takeaway is going to be that, gone are the days where enterprise companies are the only people who can solve multitouch B2B attribution and tools like DreamData are solving this for startups and SMBs. So Steffen, thanks so much for being on the show, man.Steffen Hedebrandt:Thanks a lot, Phil. Really looking forward to it. We've talked a lot about this topic before. I'm sure we'll get pretty deep pretty fast.Phil Gamache:Like myself, I've evaluated DreamData quite a bit, so I'm super familiar with the platform itself. John, I don't know how much you know about it, but I wanted to kind of start off with your journey a little bit and go back to when you were working at Upwork basically, this big tech role and how different was that from your previous role in the startup world and what did you like most about both roles?Steffen Hedebrandt:From the get-go out of university, I joined the Vintage and Rare, which is basically, or I don't know if they exist anymore, but it was a platform for selling vintage instruments where kind of gathering shops and the shops would then put their instruments up there. And the first craft that I really learned after studying was really SEO because if you have 10,000 instruments, then you really want to have those instruments on top of Google instead of your competitors there. And, I just got super fascinated by actually how big an impact you can have when you understand that Google algorithm and how to friendly manipulate a little bit towards your own business.Steffen Hedebrandt:But, that was an almost bootstrapped kind of project which led me to reading The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferris and dipping my toes into places like Elance and trying to hire people from India and try to connect them with the other freelancers you had in Europe and other freelancers you had in the US and then suddenly you have this web of people all over the world that you have to make work and that's quite a challenge.Steffen Hedebrandt:Fun story, my first job was, I put up a job for a person to add people on Myspace that's set with a guitar in their profile image. Super non valuable, but it was just to test down. So our vintage and rare profile had more followers. I learned a ton there and we didn't make any money, but we were greatly successful on Google and having been there for I don't know how long the was, three years or so. I actually got approached by Elance as they were setting up their European office and asked whether I wanted to join that and try to promote Elance in Europe. And, me being a big fan of the platform, I thought, okay, well, I haven't made any money in the last three years, so, let me go get a real job for a period.Steffen Hedebrandt:So, the music instrument platform was really fixing anything digital, this ads, SEO, et cetera, where Elance's and Upwork was much more the traditional business development like doing PR, doing events, handing over a list of keywords that you would like to have targeted. And so it's a much more you can, say hands-off than the nitty gritty of running your own a platform, but it was really interesting to try to be part of this classical California tech company and see that from the inside. It also got big so I think we were 70 when I started at Elance. And then, when it was Upwork, it was maybe 500. I think my true love lies around the smaller companies where it's bigger from thought action, and you see the impact of your work much faster.Phil Gamache:Something we talk with so much about on the show is the value of small companies. And well, just knowing what you like and the environment that works best for you. You touched on the SEO front. I think, as we talk more and more about attribution in this episode, SEO and attribution that they go together like peanut butter and salty water. It just is such a hard combination to get right.Phil Gamache:How many times in SEO land are you talking to an executive and your trying to explain like the value of SEO and you're like, hey, well, you know that dominating search rankings and owning thought leadership and the brand space that you have there. But then connecting those dots, I think, a lot of SEOs end up thinking attribution a lot because they want to really tie things to that revenue. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how your journey has brought you from SEO into the attribution?Steffen Hedebrandt:Yes. It's like super critical spot on topic for attribution. And I think we also showed some of you, some of this stuff still when we pitched Dreamdata. The main attribution challenge is that there's so few things that we purchase the very first time we experienced it. I’d buy an ice cream on a hot summer day right away. But even just a pair of running shoes you’d go to a couple of sites. You'd maybe switch between your computer and your phone, et cetera. And if we’re then talking B2B, which that's what we address with Dreamdata, then we're also talking maybe multiple months, multiple stakeholders, even your teams has multiple touches with the customer as well. And then, very quickly it gets really complex.Steffen Hedebrandt:Just before I go to kind of how we solve it, what we really can see across all our customers is that all the organic traffic works really well to start journeys, but they're so rarely the last step of the journey. So that's where you end up in this disconnect between all the value you actually create by driving a lot of search traffic to the website. But then the sales people is the ones that convert the traffic, and then they get all the reward for closing the deals. But the deals might never have gone there if you hadn't brought in all the traffic.Jon Taylor:And, we go to this data-driven path where we want to see direct lines and businesses becoming so data-driven that we almost detach ourselves from thinking through the real marketing picture. You're right. You come in through SEO and then you download and nurture, you get ...

Try to send your welcome emails on behalf of coworkers who live in the same shoes as your target users. If you’re in B2B, chances are you’re using your own product, at least a coworker is. Let them write the welcome email for new users. This is especially powerful when you serve many different verticals. Example: if you sell to marketers and sales. Ask all new users to identify with sales/marketing in the signup process. Send the welcome email to marketers from a marketer at your company who showcases how they use the product for marketing use cases. Send the welcome email to sales reps from someone on your sales team who showcases how they use the product for sales use cases. JT: Okay Phil, you showed me a screenshot of this question you answered in a Slack community. PG: Yeah shoutout to Elite Marketers and Founders Slack community that was started by Joel Musambi and Tomas Kolafa, two Ottawa-Toronto marketers. JT: So the question was about building email onboarding flows for b2b products and any great resources or things that have worked well. I know that during our time together at Klipfolio we experimented a lot with emails but in your past you’ve done a bit of freelancing and moonlighting in email onboarding land.What’s this magic welcome email that works extremely well?PG: So I want to preface this by saying that this really only works if your product sells to different segments of users. And this is usually the case right?If you only sell to marketers for example, there might still be segments in the decision makers, so you could talk to the marketing manager who’ll be using the product, you might talk to the marketing ops person who needs to integrate new tools and you might need sign off from the Director who’s the decision maker. JT: yeah we could do a full episode on segmentation, maybe we should. Okay so let’s actually use an example here, let’s go with a popular name and let’s pick a tool that tons of verticals can use, lots of use cases. PG: Yeah let’s go with Basecamp. Project management tools. There’s so many of them. In part because everyone can use a project management or todo list type of tool.Basecamp sells to a bunch of different roles. Marketers, sales, product teams, finance, you name it, there’s a use case for it. JT: So I’m on their site now, when you start a trial, there’s a few questions they ask you up front, did you go through this already?PG: haha yeah I did a bit of prep for this.When you start a trial of Basecamp they ask you for name and email, then company name and job title/role. They then ask if your company has these departments/anyone that works in these roles, they list sales, rnd, marketers, finance and managers. Then they even ask for a use case, if you’re working on any of these projects, site build, event, new product launch or rebrand. JT: That’s actually quite a lot of info to ask upfront. I’m okay with it if companies are doing something with that info though.So you finished creating an account, Welcome emails come in about 5 mins later. Are you happy? PG: I’m actually really sad haha. Basecamp is a tiny team so email segmentation and onboarding is probably super low on their list. I remember when they hired a head of marketing their job posting said something like “this job isn’t about email nurturing, though very important, the scope of this role is much broader”. And that makes a ton of sense. Small team, you gotta prioritize. JT: So the welcome email wasn’t segmented?PG: Sent from support@ and there’s no segmentation content in there despite knowing my role and my use case. They are probably using that data to inform other decisions, but I didn’t get any segmented content that could’ve boosted engagement.JT: Okay, let’s say I’m Jason or Andy at Basecamp and we hire you to upgrade our email onboarding and you need to impress the shit out of these guys. What does the welcome email look like?PG: Yeah so let’s go back to some of the questions Basecamp asks users in the signup process.By asking for job title, they could lookup specific words and put me in a role bucket. Something really cool that they do in the onboarding is ask what departments you have setup and to invite someone from that team. In this case Basecamp knows if someone is from rnd or finance. JT: So user signs up, you know they fit into 1 of 5 role buckets:MarketingSalesRndFinancemanagersPG: So then next step is nominating 1 person in your company for each of those role buckets. And you help them write the welcome email from their perspective and share how they use the product.So the welcome email to marketers comes from Andy, their head of marketing, he shows Basecamp in action for a product launch he completed recently and walks through his daily process for running marketing through basecamp.Rnd email comes in from DHH, their famous CTO. He probably reminds you that he created ruby on rails in the welcome email haha but he’s probably able to craft something totally different for a technical user compared to a marketer in Andy’s email. So maybe in that email DHH talks about Basecamp 3’s API improvements or how they break up user stories into subcomponents and sub tasks. The manager email comes from Jason their CEO and he walks other managers and team leaders through the Small Council team setup they use internally or maybe the campfire sections and how to keep the team in touch and highly collaborative. JT: love it. What you’re doing is creating instant connection with empathy in your welcome email. It’s written in language you’re familiar with and the use cases shown are super familiar with your world. PG: Yeah so haven’t done this in a bunch of places there, it doesn't always work, especially if you serve a very niche audience. But usually in B2B someone in your company resembles your target user.I find it super fun to work for a B2B company that sells to marketers or marketing ops. So I’m someone on the team but I’m also very close to the customer’s worlds, I live in similar pain points every day.--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

We’ve got a super special guest today. Julie Beynon was born and raised in Ottawa, currently lives in Toronto.Got her start in marketing in - Kanata North’s - tech valley- with a company called Protus IP. She then spent nearly 5 years at Conceptshare, an agency startup that  pioneered creative proofing software and was acquired by Deltek.  She then freelanced for a bit, discovered the benefits of working remotely. Landed a gig on the marketing team at Customerio for 3 years. Working remotely. On the Ops and analytics side. For the past 2+ years, she’s head of analytics at Clearbit – a badass saas company with an awesome story of grit and one of the smartest growth teams in SaaS.  Julie is the brain behind the scenes. She’s a powerhouse data analyst with a marketing lense at heart.And today she’s going to share why data Warehousing no longer needs to be intimidating for marketers.  We can’t NOT start by talking about your journey. Western U grad, born and raised in Ottawa. Started in Kanata, worked for a startup/agency. Now you’re head of analytics at one of the coolest SaaS companies in the world. How and why did you make the leap to remote and working for a us saaa?What’s the top skill a fresh marketer should be learning if they want to work in marketing analytics? Why do you choose to work at a small smb sized company, when you could be a Director at an enterprise company. What keeps you in the startup/smb space?Let’s talk about your day to day, you’re head of analytic.. What’s that like, what are the highs and lows?When do you know it’s time to upgrade from spreadsheets. Gotta love a good Google sheet. Size of dataset, at some point it becomes clunky, slow.To run formulas or use large spreadsheets, you're using your computer’s hardware capabilities. dwh doesn’t have row limits, not limited by your laptop’s processing power. The analysis, reports you run off of a dwh are run inside the tool instead of on your laptop. so it’s way faster.How to convince your startup eng team that you need a DW for marketing data?What are the steps someone needs to take to go from I don’t have a DW for marketing data, my data is all over the place… to: I have account level aggregate data of all the touchpoints and I can share them across all my tools.How do you pick a dwh solution?Microsoft azure ecosys; native ML + powerBI Amazon redshift runs on awsSnowflake provides their own spin on dwhGoogle bigquery, simple, flexible,--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

It's super easy to over-engineer lifecycle and to underthink sales component.JT you've done this project a ton in HubSpot & Marketo both client-side and in-house. Who usually leads this internally (sales, marketing, other functions)?I can explain it to you but not understand it for you; this project is a distraction to sales; sales sees themselves as revenue drivers — and who in your organization is closer to putting 0’s on your paycheck?Common concern of sales is the limited bandwidth and massive distraction, not too mention refactoring their daily rhythm. If sales isn’t bought in, it’s because it’s not valuable // full-stop. If you can’t get a partner in sales, then you need to see that as feedback. It’s painful but sales has got to see the value in this or you’ll never get this off the ground. (we then dive into some examples of going off the rails).Deeper dive into lifecycle stages and contact status // road map versus traffic light analogy.Thanks for checking out our lifeycle martech saga! Let us know what we should dive into for our next saga!--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusPodcast artwork font by StarJedi Special Edition by Boba Fonts

You once told me you don’t care about the tools. I remember when I started working with you, we talked about pardot and marketo and hubspot, and you said you’d use carrier pigeons and smoke signals if that’s all you had. We’re Martech geeks -- of course you’re going to say to deploy a lead scoring model -- but why is it important to imagine a universe without one? It’s important to understand things in their most basic form. The concept of abstraction in programming is instructive here - basically it means that we build upon the sophistication of the code that came before us to create simpler code. In other words, you don’t need to know binary to write javascript.Same goes for MQLS - we’ve accepted scoring as the definition of MQLs without always thinking it through. For me, an marketing qualified lead is a lead that marketing has qualified. When marketing qualifies a lead, it’s passed to sales, sales follows up with it, and you make more money. Exactly. We get stuck on the how and what too often. Why is this important? Marketing is casting the net -- they build personas, execute on strategy to fill the funnel, often even own the automation systems. Marketing also deals with leads at scale -- one to many communications. It makes a lot of sense organizationally that marketing helps filter leads to sales.By recentering on the why, we can now talk about the how and the what. Let’s start with the what:Marketing could define an MQL as any of the following:A direct response to a marketing campaign through a form or offer acceptanceHand-bombing leads over from a list, for example from a conference boothAutomated scoring!Scoring models:Numeric scoringGrade ScoreFancy AI algorithmYou need a model that builds trust and keeps it. Ideally it provides some sort of feedback mechanism. Need to answer the question: which leads are best to pass to sales? A+ leads, should sales talk to them if they are going to convert already?Most common is numeric. Good start and familiar toolset. Evaluate properties like country, industry, job title, etc. Evaluate behaviour like web and email interactions. Don’t want to get lost here but some amazing touch points that lead to purchase intent like what pages they viewed, pricing page counter, integration pages, where they started they trials.Pros -> Super easy to implement, easy to maintain, easy to understand (and therefore trust). Cons -> Harder to extract insights from, a bit basic in some cases, and sometimes you want more sophistication. Data enrichment tools like Clearbit, not 100% match rate but help you figure out what matters, then you can ask that question instead of inferring it. Grading model: Two axes: Fit & Engagement (or whatever). Get your 1-4 and your A-D. Matrix to plot out where leads land. Lots of precision and predictability. Pros -> Precise, easy to understand, easier to extract insights. Cons -> Harder to implement, harder to train folks on, more technical stuffAI algorithm: Usually you plug in list of best customers, AI looks up common attributes and then sets up predictive model based on those attributes. Usually pretty black box. Pros -> Easy to set up, sophisticated, and uses latest tech. Cons -> Expensive, requires trust.Thanks for listening homies.If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for our finale, part 5, we'll give you a super secret link to the unpublished episode if you sign up for new episode notifications here humansofmartech.com. :)--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusPodcast artwork font by StarJedi Special Edition by Boba Fonts

Okay, you’ve got everyone to agree on a flow chart; you look like a wizard for building it all out, now the easy part, right? Is it the easy part?It should be the easy part but what I’ve often seen is that folks deploying lifecycle are doing it for the first time; often they are unsupported except some high level guides from vendors. Once you get it down, it can be highly formulaic. As a marketer, you’re kind of in between your data team/revops/IT/bizops and sales, your end users. I see the role bridging the gap between was possible on the tech side and balancing what the end user wants, not always sales, sometimes marketing. But it can be stressful managing these projects. Some companies have massive programs that are triggered off of lifecycle stage changes. So what’s the formula? First, you need strong stage definitions. Hand-in-hand with this is knowing what constitutes a transition. I think the transition part of lifecycle is often where people get hung up. Mechanism for transition needs to be a data signal of some sort. Moving from Marketing side of the fence to Sales side needs a clear hand off.3 typical mechanisms for transitioning records are: Lead Scoring - MarketingContact Status - Sales handoffsOpportunity Staging - Sales pipelineQuestion - You’ve talked to me quite a bit about the difference between lifecycle stages and contact statuses. This can be super confusing to folks new to automation. What’s the difference and why’s it important? Lifecycle Stage = RoadmapContact Status = Traffic lightsOne of the big value points of deploying a solid lifecycle is reporting. What are you doing during set up to make sure your reporting is top-notch post deployment?Timestamp fields -- super easy!Contact status fields -- review your rejected leadsAttribution fields -- hard code these valuesTake a look at tools within the systems themselves: HubSpot has attribution tools, Marketo has revenue cycle modellerHow simple is all this really? I mean, once you know your way around lifecycle, it’s actually not that hard to deploy? In terms of a technical problem, it’s a solved problem. You can mix and match components, and tailor things to your needs. The real challenge will always be getting buy-in:You might have genius idea for contact status that requires additional data input from sales people.This is a great way to turn people against you, and our finale will dive deeper into this!  Thanks for listening! Make sure you check out part 1 and 2 in the previous two episodes and stay tuned for part 4 and 5.If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for the next episode, we'll give you a super secret link to unpublished episodes if you sign up for new episode notifications here humansofmartech.com.--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusPodcast artwork font by StarJedi Special Edition by Boba Fonts

You want to keep your project neatly scoped and deliver this project on time. Give a skinny MVP and build upon it rather than starting with a complex model that no one will ever use.We've seen these types of projects be it scoring or lifecycle go into dark rabbit holes and never emerge.You build a 5 step process, but somewhere in the depths of the definition of a picklist value in step 1.15 has erupted this debate between sales and product……… Let's preface the value of project management for these types of projects, and even talk about why a lot of marketers don’t really work on these skills enough.Project management is key to getting lifecycle off the ground.How do you organize projects to ensure they don’t go down the rabbit hole? I used to think that anybody could manage projects and it wasn’t a great skill to specialize in. And then I discovered how bad I was at it. I’ve gotten pretty hardcore about projects, particularly when I’m working as a consultant. I like a 5 stage model based on Discovery, Design, Build, Deploy, and Review. Each stage has clear deliverables so that we know when to leave that stage. I’m also pretty hardcore on timelines. I’d rather we hit a timeline and reduce scope than expand timelines to keep scope.One thing I’ve seen ops people obsess about a bit too much is these micro stages in between stages. Your main stages are Lead to MQL but along that path a lead might get confirmed and engaged. How many micro stages is too many? At the end of the day it’s about conversion rates and you don’t want to muddy your table with too many percentages. Lifecycle really allows for measurement of conversion points.Question: JT, I know you’ve worked in Marketo and HubSpot. Marketo gives you unlimited freedom, but HubSpot’s default lifecycle stage is fixed. What model do you like better? Yeah, I’ve used Marketo for 7 years before I started working HubSpot. At first, I was like, of eff this noise with HubSpot. But I’m a little more lenient - HubSpot forces you to simplify and focus on really key stages. Going from MQL to SQL is a big change - one that can trigger insights if you’ve got your analytics tuned properly. Also, no one is making you use HubSpot’s properties - you can totally spin up your own. I think as a mental exercise, it’s better to lean more toward the HubSpot model than completely reinventing the wheel.This is the type of trivial details that bogs down the project. You want to customize things, but you don’t overcomplicate things. We talk about the importance of alignment in this endeavour and something I’ve wrestled with a lot has been the best vehicle to communicate to my team what is happening along the lifecycle. The scoring, the micro stages, the touch points, the segments, the emails the in app messages. Like as much of that story as possible.How do you prevent this type of scope creep that’s bound to happen as everyone starts to unpack things?I think it’s so important to use a visualization tool like a flowchart -- LucidChart, Mural, or whatever -- to show your lifecycle. People are resistant to complexity when you start to chart things out for them. No one wants a complex process but we often arrive at complex solutions before we’re trying to compromise. By using a flow chart, you start to grind away at the concerns folks have that this stage isn’t represented or whatever. It also allows you to show that there’s a lot that goes into each stage. Like an MQL stage that depends on scoring also requires building a scoring program. The concept of an MVP is so important here. It gives us unrivaled permission to push something that isn’t 100% what we want. It’s a forcing function that gets something out the door. It’s like conversion rate testing -- everyone just leaves you alone as soon as you say, “oh, I’m testing this.”You do need two things before this magic trick grows old: 1) you need to follow up with future deliverables; 2) you need to show data. For lifecycle, it’s getting an initial report into your stakeholders hands. This isn’t a PhD dissertation - it’s something you need to do and deploy.Thanks for listening folks. Doon't forget to check out part 1 in the last episode.If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for the next episode, we'll give you a super secret link to unpublished episodes if you sign up for new episode notifications here humansofmartech.com.--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusPodcast artwork font by StarJedi Special Edition by Boba Fonts