Humans of Martech

You want to keep your project neatly scoped and deliver this project on time. Give a skinny MVP and build upon it rather than starting with a complex model that no one will ever use.We've seen these types of projects be it scoring or lifecycle go into dark rabbit holes and never emerge.You build a 5 step process, but somewhere in the depths of the definition of a picklist value in step 1.15 has erupted this debate between sales and product……… Let's preface the value of project management for these types of projects, and even talk about why a lot of marketers don’t really work on these skills enough.Project management is key to getting lifecycle off the ground.How do you organize projects to ensure they don’t go down the rabbit hole? I used to think that anybody could manage projects and it wasn’t a great skill to specialize in. And then I discovered how bad I was at it. I’ve gotten pretty hardcore about projects, particularly when I’m working as a consultant. I like a 5 stage model based on Discovery, Design, Build, Deploy, and Review. Each stage has clear deliverables so that we know when to leave that stage. I’m also pretty hardcore on timelines. I’d rather we hit a timeline and reduce scope than expand timelines to keep scope.One thing I’ve seen ops people obsess about a bit too much is these micro stages in between stages. Your main stages are Lead to MQL but along that path a lead might get confirmed and engaged. How many micro stages is too many? At the end of the day it’s about conversion rates and you don’t want to muddy your table with too many percentages. Lifecycle really allows for measurement of conversion points.Question: JT, I know you’ve worked in Marketo and HubSpot. Marketo gives you unlimited freedom, but HubSpot’s default lifecycle stage is fixed. What model do you like better? Yeah, I’ve used Marketo for 7 years before I started working HubSpot. At first, I was like, of eff this noise with HubSpot. But I’m a little more lenient - HubSpot forces you to simplify and focus on really key stages. Going from MQL to SQL is a big change - one that can trigger insights if you’ve got your analytics tuned properly. Also, no one is making you use HubSpot’s properties - you can totally spin up your own. I think as a mental exercise, it’s better to lean more toward the HubSpot model than completely reinventing the wheel.This is the type of trivial details that bogs down the project. You want to customize things, but you don’t overcomplicate things. We talk about the importance of alignment in this endeavour and something I’ve wrestled with a lot has been the best vehicle to communicate to my team what is happening along the lifecycle. The scoring, the micro stages, the touch points, the segments, the emails the in app messages. Like as much of that story as possible.How do you prevent this type of scope creep that’s bound to happen as everyone starts to unpack things?I think it’s so important to use a visualization tool like a flowchart -- LucidChart, Mural, or whatever -- to show your lifecycle. People are resistant to complexity when you start to chart things out for them. No one wants a complex process but we often arrive at complex solutions before we’re trying to compromise. By using a flow chart, you start to grind away at the concerns folks have that this stage isn’t represented or whatever. It also allows you to show that there’s a lot that goes into each stage. Like an MQL stage that depends on scoring also requires building a scoring program. The concept of an MVP is so important here. It gives us unrivaled permission to push something that isn’t 100% what we want. It’s a forcing function that gets something out the door. It’s like conversion rate testing -- everyone just leaves you alone as soon as you say, “oh, I’m testing this.”You do need two things before this magic trick grows old: 1) you need to follow up with future deliverables; 2) you need to show data. For lifecycle, it’s getting an initial report into your stakeholders hands. This isn’t a PhD dissertation - it’s something you need to do and deploy.Thanks for listening folks. Doon't forget to check out part 1 in the last episode.If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for the next episode, we'll give you a super secret link to unpublished episodes if you sign up for new episode notifications here humansofmartech.com.--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusPodcast artwork font by StarJedi Special Edition by Boba Fonts

Main takeaway:Set yourself up for long term success with a solid Lifecycle program. Not only does it help you exert control and mastery over your reporting, it provides a framework for having tough discussions between sales & marketing.It opens up career opportunities - average salary according to glassdoor and others for lifecycle marketing manager is $80-$120K - yeah, you unlock big value for your own career.This topic is too big for a single post, so here’s what’s in store:This episode, episode 1: the what & why of lifecycleEpisode 2: How to avoid overthinking implementing a lifecycleEpisode 3: How to design a basic lifecycle that actually worksEpisode 4: Picking the right MQL & scoring model for lifecycleEpisode 5: No sales people were harmed in the making of lifecycleTraditionally, a lot of companies refer to leads as if you’re taking their temperature. Hot medium and cold leads. The system isn’t really based off of metrics and is not an effective way to sort leads for sales. There’s no consideration for a lead’s progression from first visit to conversion then to customer. In this scenario, marketing and sales often clash because there’s no system in place to create alignment. Sales isn’t tackling leads in the most optimal way. Marketing is generating leads that sales might not care about. What is lifecycle, JT? How do you define it?Lifecycle is the journey contacts in your database take to become a customer. It mirrors your typical funnel journey and operates in much the same way. Unlike funnel, lifecycle is a bit more specific to conditions in your database. Your funnel has basic stages that describe the buyer’s journey: awareness through interest, evaluation, purchase, etc. They are totally compatible! But lifecycle requires data properties or fields in your marketing automation platform to track. Everyone gets lost in acronym land. Enterprise teams largely follow the standards from the SiriusDecisions waterfall model. What are the standard stages as you see it, and do you think they have to be customized/adapted for each company?Let’s run through them quick:Lead - Yeah, someone in your databaseMQL - a marketing qualified lead -- literally exactly as it sounds -- marketing qualifies leadsSAL - sales accepted lead - leads that sales agrees to work withSQL - sales qualified - leads that sales qualifies - common in team where front-line sales reps qualify leads to send to account executivesOpportunity - it’s got an open opportunity Customer - they’ve purchased! Of course, you can do whatever you want! I’m not your mother!This is a cross section of the database. To me, this is table stakes for any MAP.Benefits are huge but can be summed up in two points:Mastery over your contact DBA common language for sales & marketingSo I’m putting my startup hat on, maybe the ops person on that team is wearing many other hats and doesn’t have time to build all these fields and time stamps and create all this alignment.  If you don’t have the cycle, at lest start with master lifecycle lists. Some kind of way to get a sense of what stage people are in your db. Because this is a big project, there’s no getting around that.Multiple teams agreeing on definitions and standard operating procedures. So like every problem, there’s a systems and tech side, how to implement what's possible, but there’s the human side, if we build this, will it be used, is this helping people? Do people even want this?What makes this project so hard?Lots of stakeholders, the people side is so much harder. Lots of things that need to be agreed upon. Can be sprawling and daunting if your DB is a mess. Needs long term follow up after deployment to be successful. Traditional sales folks who have a process that works well enough often see this as as theoretical or not as important as revenue driving activities. One thing I’ll say here is that this can never be pitch as a marketing idea, it can never be pitched as a top down initiative. This has to be something that is built through the alignment of sales and marketing. Dual buy-in, common languages. JT, I know you’ve done this in Marketo and HubSpot for clients and in-house -- it’s potentially a huge project… Why on earth should anyone take on this project?It’s 101 for anyone looking to go deep into marketing operations and opens up a super cool avenue for your career. It will allow you to attain mastery over your database. It opens up career opportunities - average salary according to glassdoor and others for lifecycle marketing manager is $120K - yeah, you unlock big value for your own career.Stay tuned for part 2/5 next week.If you absolutely can't wait 7 days for the next episode, we'll give you a super secret link to unpublished episodes if you sign up for new episode notifications here: www.humansofmartech.com.--Intro music by Wowa via UnminusPodcast artwork font by StarJedi Special Edition by Boba Fonts

Our guest today is Jonathan Simon. Jonathan is Director of Marketing and Professor of Digital Marketing at Telfer School of Management - University of Ottawa. He teaches an undergrad and a master’s level course. Before that, he also taught at Algonquin college for almost 4 years. So he’s been teaching marketing for a while, since 2014. But he hasn’t always been a prof… He’s worked in-house before, best known in Ottawa for his expertise in mobile marketing and the gaming industry. He was Director of Marketing at Magmic – a leading publisher of mobile games working with global brands like Hasbro and Mattel. He’s an extremely well networked marketer, he’s found more jobs for marketing students in Canada than any other prof in history, ever.It's not every day you get to interview a Professor. Some of the topics we cover in the episode:How do you teach while also being a Director of marketing?Do you still need to do a degree out of highschool to have a successful and happy career in marketing? What are some of the best side projects students can take on to help get them jobs early on? How do you manage interns and fresh marketers? How do you stay happy in your career while managing multiple hobbies and being a father?--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

- MOPs is an amazing career, and the number 1 skill you need is curiosity. Nick got his start owning a Marketo instance and rapidly acquired the skills required to be a MOPs leader in one of Canada’s hottest startups- From a strong foundation in-house, Nick has moved consulting side, and will compare notes about why the switch may be one you should think about in your careerNick is a highly talented marketing ops professional.He started his career in marketing with a quick stint in a creative agency before spending the better part of the next 6 years of his career working in-house for companies of different sizes and different industries. Nick brings a lot of passion and enthusiasm to his work which has helped him rapidly learn the world of martech.Nick really came into his own working at Solace in the tech industry where he picked up Marketo and hasn’t looked back since. Nick recently made the move back to the agency world where he’ll be a Consultant at Perkuto--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

Marketers are wasting energy deciding the ideal CTA to add to a landing page. Let’s vote on it, or let’s test it.The ideal CTA is based on who the visitor is and where they are in their lifecycle, not what your A/B tests are showing or your internal debates.Instead of obsessing about picking the best CTA per page for all your visitors, you should be serving different CTAs to different visitors.Let's start by painting a picture: When a person lands on a homepage you have multiple options for getting them to the next step. We call this the call to action; the CTA. It’s best to limit the number of CTAs in most things you do. But it’s hard to pick. What’s the best CTA to put on your blog? Newsletter? Ebook? Trial? Demo? Webinar? What about your homepage?The ideal CTA depends on who the visitor is more than what you think should be their next step. So why not show a different CTA to different users?Area snippets or dynamic areas or dynamic content, there's different buzzwords for it. They allow you to do this.Instead of picking just one CTA.You can show; an education call to action to new visitorsa product tutorial call to action to existing trial usersand a onboarding call to action to new customersAll on the same page, using the same line of code.JT: In a lot of cases, forms are tied to the website and you need some front end help. HTML, little side of CSS. It can be tricky to completely own forms for marketers.PG: Many ways to do this, common way is to use form handlers, or you build the native form in your MAP and you build a custom HTML form on your site, you connect the two forms via API + javascriptJT: However you do it, Zapier or JS, when someone fills out the HTML form it triggers a form submission event in your MAP.PG: If you have an eng team, you’re probably doing something custom, gives you more control over the look and feel of the site.If you don’t have technical support, Zapier can basically hook up to any api. So you can use a third party form tool like convertflow, formkeap, typeform, you can send events from Zapier to your MAP. JT: Okay so you mentioned a few tools there, let's say you work in a smaller company, don't have marketo or pardot or maybe even hubspot, what form builders do you recommend?PG: I'm a big fan of convertflow. More than just a form platform. Coolest ability is using dynamic areas of your site to show different forms to different people. They call them area snippets. Traditionally, forms and content upgrades are static and specific to a page, they are hard coded in the html of your page. But what convertflow does is lets you place a dynamic area code in your body, and CF will display a different form based on who the user is. So you can show a trial form to a content lead and a webinar form to customers.But you can also create a new form for your email course on how to start a podcast for example, and instead of manually injecting that code in a bunch of pages, you can set your new form to show up in every area snippet on pages where URL contains (how-to) or has tags=top of funnel.And once users have seen that form already, you can show them a new form. JT: I guess Marketo has some of that functionality right? It’s a bit messier. You can use dynamic content and embed that on your site or use a Marketo lp entirely. But I guess not everyone is using a Marketo. Convertflow certainly looks cooler.What are some of the other tools that do something similar? I know you're big on site personalization tools.PG: Yeah that's when we get into tools like Proof or Mutiny. They got hot onto the scene when they claimed AB testing was dead. And it's a really interesting take we could probably do a whole episode on.JT: Ohh yeah I've heard this. This is the, why launch an AB test on your site for ALL visitors, when you can test only the audience you care about.PG: Exactly. Most A/B tests today have very muddied results but are thrown around like gospel. Imagine the homepage. If you're launching an AB test on your homepage, a bunch of people you don't care about are muddying the results of your test. Customers, students.JT: So what are some of the most common playbooks for this? Like how can someone use tools like these to drive revenue? PG: I see vertical segmentation as the most popular. So that would be like Transistor showing e-commerce podcasts on their homepage to potential ecommerce visitors.But company size and industry is also really powerful. Doing things like showing different customer logos based on whether the person viewing your site is enterprise or startup. Or showing an H1 of "The best podcast tool for Real estate pros" to real estate leads but to retail leads they see "The best podcast tool for Retail leaders".JT: That's super cool. But I know some folks would find this creepy.PG: Yeah for sure. There's a line. and A way to do it well.You want to try to provide value without being creepy.Instead of having your homepage saying Hey Jonathan Taylor. Welcome back. Here’s how other B2B SaaS companies are using our tool.You can keep your normal headline but change your H2, which in this case is a customer review, it reads:“The best podcast hosting tool I've used”So for e-comm identified visitors, you change H2 to showing a review that has ecomm or retail in the body, like“I host my ecomm podcast with Transistor and it’s the bomb.fm”And for B2B SaaS companies it’s“You had me at: Basecamp uses Transistor”.JT: A lot of this is powered by reverse-IP lookup right? Like Clearbit reveal.PG: Yeah I’m not an expert in this space by any means but I’ve heard a lot of smart folks say that covid and remote work is really hurting the accuracy of this data. Unless you’re all logging in using a VPN, it’s hard to associate personal home-based traffic IP to corporate or business traffic. --Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

It’s a funny visualization but I find it always grounds me in what matters: why am I at work, what is really important to me, and why being happy is more important to us than anything else.It’s easy to let work get to you and invade your happy space; I’m going to share my strategies for staying happy wherever I work.Work / Life BoundaryClear boundaries between work & lifeDisconnect all work tools from my phone. I’m unreachable unless you text or phone.How do you develop this balance?Having a healthy and disciplined routine and schedule. My Monday’s are no meeting days and have several focus periods, team meetings are on Tuesdays and I try to schedule other meetings then. I walk my dog at the end of each work day. It’s my queue and my reset button.I have an office upstairs with a work laptop that stays up there. When my work hour is done I leave that room and leave the laptop there as well. All my work for the podcast or hobbies is using a personal laptop. Letting GoYou can’t control everything, certainly not what other people doIt’s hard AF sometimes if you’re like me and your passion is your strengthHow do you practice letting go?Being able to let go. Give less fucks. Don't over think things. Good work is important. Perfection will haunt you. It's okay to be invested in your work and care deeply about it. But it's healthy to try to not being emotionally attached to work.Similar to your lion analogy, something that grounds me in times of stress is a quote by Stanley Kubrick. “Whenever you have a dreadful day, take a moment to consider how small we are as humans in this galaxy. In the grand scale of it all, that bad day is virtually meaningless.”Part of this mental state is the product of almost a decade of personal growth and hard work. It’s a gift to not worry about finding employment. So patience is key here. This won’t be instant. Investing in your career over your jobFind what you love about your career and invest in thatYour job is just a job; it could change; your employer may lay you off tomorrow and despite all the fucks you give, they’ll continue on without youYour career will continue to grow; besides your job will benefit from investing in your career.How do you invest in your career?Building a network. It used to be going to events, speaking at meetups. Now it's more virtual groups, paid memberships and private Slack communities. But it's so important to reach out to other humans and make connections. Your goal is to help progress as many people so that some of them can help you in turn.Being CandidFirst, be compassionate and empathetic. Develop these skills. Be interested in what makes people tickSecond, be honest when you’re not happy or uncomfortable or frustrated - don’t sit on that shit because in my experience 98% of people just don’t know your upset if you don’t say something.Why is being candid so important?Getting positive feedback. Getting good results. Surpassing expectations. Helping a colleague, solving a problem. It makes me happy at work. One of my colleagues described me as someone who takes mysteries, smashes them into pieces, and turns the remnants into answers. Being well liked by coworkers and management is a big part of happiness. I find that easier in smaller companies.Eggs in more than one basketAdvice I got years ago and now follow is having more interests than just my careerUsed to read non-stop business booksNow I have hobbies completely unrelated to work, coding, and hobbies that are career related, like this podcast.Quit shitty jobsMy landscaping story - shit people, but I ‘toughed’ it out to prove a point. Now have sworn I won’t endure something awful ever again (not that I’ve had to).Alex shoutout, Shopify inspiration story. Hated construction industry. Quit, learned to code, applied and failed a few times, kept trying and getting better, now he works there. Never seen someone’s job satisfaction rate go up that high.--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

You reached out to us to come on and talk about the world of open source martech and other than knowing that Mautic was an OS automation tool, I didn’t really know much else about the space.So I’ve gotten down some rabbit holes prepping for this episode so pumped to dive in with you today. Why don’t we start with the big differences between martech and open source martech.I know that normal software does not include the source code while open source does and modifications and customizations are encouraged, but what does that mean in a martech context? Brian: For me, open source is about control and trust.You have the ability to control how your customer data is handled and where it is stored. We’ve seen this lead to people taking advantage of more data in their marketing efforts.So then, you can see the code. You can control the data. This leads to trust. Only give the external tools what you want to share. Privacy and compliance get easier. We are talking with lots of medical companies, for example.JT: What’s the advantage of this business model, like why make Grouparoo Open source vs. the tried and tested SaaS model?Brian: I don’t think the world needs another marktech SaaS solution. There are already thousands of those and yet these problems (integrating tools) persist. So we wanted to do something different. We think that working closer to the engineering level (and making it super easy) will disrupt how these tools get implemented.Because there are so many tools to integrate with, open source will also help us build up those connections. We will actively engage with the more popular ones, but it’s exciting to see others interested in contributing connections to the long tail of tools.Finally, there is cost. These SaaS solutions tend to be quite expensive and the incentive structure doesn’t line up between the company and the SaaS tool. For example, with Segment you send it a lot of events and more or less get charged per event. Then you pair back what you send. But then, later it turns out that you needed that. Doing all of this and owning that data is great for not only for privacy, flexibility, but also for cost.Phil:Martech today has an awesome article on open source tools, I’ll add it in the show notes, but in there, they make the case that the Open source model is not ideal for Martech.The most successful open source projects tend to be developer oriented—developers building tools for other developers, but in this case, the end user is often a marketer. I’m guessing you disagree?Brian:It would certainly seem so.When you want to integrate with Marketo, it’s the engineers that do that. I’ve talked with companies with millions of users that have been paying for Braze for a year and haven’t automated anything. I’ve met marketers that come in as CMO and demand tool X because they like it. A few quarters later, it’s more like “I just want to send a cart abandonment email! VPE, whatever you want to use is fine.”I think there is a lot lost when we think of marketers and engineers as separate things and not the organization as a whole. The right thing to do is engage with the engineers that power your marketing tech stack. And meet them where they are. Open source helps with that.If we can get the engineers excited about setting up the right architecture in an open way, then it will be easier to get more data later to existing and new tools.JT: Couple years ago Acquia acquired Mautic. They said in their press release that it was the start of a new generation of open source communities and projects to reinvent the martech stack. Do you see an evolution of open source tools in the automation space?Brian: Mautic was an ambitious project to do everything - to replace the tools you are using now. The evolution is about more target solutions.A notable one is that there are even more marketing tools and they specialize, so Mautic would have to do everything. And maybe it didn’t do drip campaigns or push better than Iterable.There’s a similar trend in the engineering world, especially on data teams. Data teams are growing and getting their own budgets. They are getting their own set of specialized tools. One example is Fivetran. That will store everything from Hubspot in your data warehouse. The missing piece, as we see it, is to make that actionable in the best tools for use cases in an efficient way.Phil:I want to finish with integration of data in between platforms, and I know you guys solve this problem. Adobe Microsoft and SAP launched the Open Data Initiative that aims to standardize data across platforms. The problem still isn’t fixed though. If you’re using 14 martech tools, chances are several aren’t Adobe products.What’s the solution?Brian:(open source community, and a standard by which data can flow between any set of systems, not just into one. You need the community to build all the connectors and adaptors between those tools, so you don’t have to custom build and code everything.”I’m focused on building out a community around this tool. We won’t live or by whether the code works. That’s not a problem. The main thing is to make sure we get in front of the people that would benefit from it. We need to get the word out so that when there is this need, Grouparoo is the obvious solution - both for now (easy to get going) and later through self-serve and lots of integrations.To do that we’re doing podcasts, blogging, talking with people that are interested in using it, and building out the team.JT: Alright, Brian, what’s Grouparoo?Brian:It solves an organizational problem we saw at TaskRabbit. We saw challenges between the product team and other teams that needed our help getting data for them to be successful, for example marketing and customer support. In general, these things don’t get prioritized and engineering becomes the bottleneck.We’ve talked to others and they saw something similar. So we made Grouparoo to sync data from your product database or data warehouse to the tools you use like Salesforce or Zendesk. But we also made it open source and targeted at engineers to get it installed and data flowing. And then we added in ways for those non-engineers to help themselves to the data they need to be successful.This help to solve the organizational problem through empowerment hat kind of autonomy for, say, a marketing operations team.Phil: How does it work?Brran: Grouparoo is open source and up on Github. There are examples of how to get it running on Docker or Heroku or any way that you run a Node app. You run that and point it at your primary data source.What it will do is create a profile for each of our users, starting with their user_id or email or something like that. Then you can keep building out that profile from that or other sources until you have a centralized profile of who that person is with many properties.With those properties, you can do segmentation. We can create dynamic groups of users based on their property values. For example, “High Value Bay Area” customers or “About to Churn” customers. These will always stay updated automatically with the real data.Now we know these properties and group membership about each user. We can sync this data to destinations like Marketo, Salesforce, Hubspot, Zendesk, etc. You choose what you want to sync and it happens. And it keeps happening as the data changes.--

Gating vs ungating isn't something we're going to get into today. There's arguments to both, I prefer not gating as much as possible. But it's a necessary evil.Always trying to be buyer centric instead of seller centric, don't push sales too much at the top of the funnel, let leads show you when they are ready.What are some of your favorite lead magnets?Tools, quizzes, website grader. Email courses as the best content upgrade. Newsletter when possible but consider testing an email course offer.The email courses are way more popular now but I remember you building the first ones at Klipfolio. What's the playbook for putting one of these together?Step 1 - what are you teaching Go in GA, find the most popular content topic from your blog, maybe it's 4-5 blog posts. (example transistor) How to come up with a concept, how to record, tools, how to publish, etc. Top blog posts are likely all related to how to start a podcast. Step 2 - pillar page: Take your best content related to your topic/what you’re teaching, so for transistor, how to start a podcast - combine those posts into one big ‘pillar page’. Step 3 - 5 lessons trim Break up the pillar page into 5 lessons and cut the fat. Really go in and highlight the key takeaways and cut the fluff. Aim for 2-3 minute read. Make it super skimmable. Paragraph headers. That’s pretty much it. Last step is adding your CTA to those top blogs.So on your top pages, the ‘How to come up with a concept, how to record, tools, how to publish’ you add a CTA on those with your email course offer. Hey instead of aimlessly reading these long blog posts on our site:Learn how to start a podcast in 5 minutes, delivered to your inbox every morning for 5 days.So these programs have really good engagement metrics. But blabla vanity metrics. How do email courses help companies make money?The beauty is you can create courses for different stages of your funnel.(example transistor) TOFU: how to start a podcast (all the steps)Next up: MOFU: how to record edit, tools (all the tools)Next up: BOFU: how to host/publish your podcast (tutorials using transistor). Tutorials on uploading, RSS feed, pushing to podcast apps, integrationsNext up: Free trial?At this point, you’ve built a ton of trust and credibility with the reader. You gave them a bunch of value in a short amount of timeOkay so main points here is finding content that's already getting eye balls, connect it to other peices, then you have one big peice and your goal is cutting it up into bite sized lessons.yeah the brevity of the lessons is what works. People are highly engaged with these emails. They are expecting them and they know it's only take 5 mins to read and they know there's insights in there.So having done a bunch of these now. For the folks in the audience that are saying, okay cool you didn’t invent email courses, I’ve had some for years. What do you say to those people to level up their courses?Ways to improve your courses are to ask for feedback at the end of a course. Experiment: takeaway for each lesson, images, GIFs, get next lesson right now, homework and activities, templates, tutorials… time zone, receive at specific time.So why do they work so well?Quality, brevity, opt-in expectation.--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

Describe the opposite of sales & marketing alignmentSales is pushing hard to meet their number (revenue, arpu, customer count). Marketing is pushing hard to meet their targets (marketing qualified leads). Not talking to each other and working as a single unit.There is a big discrepancy in what types of leads convert and become workable by sales. The lack of alignment equates to marketing dollars that are spent frivolously and sales ignoring what they’re being fed from marketingWhat does marketing need to know about sales?Sales folks aren’t lazy. They have a lot on the line with a big portion of their compensation based on hitting sales numbers. However, they will always take the quickest and easiest route to make the sale. Keep that in mind. Think about how they work and put yourself in their shoes when you are communicating new marketing initiatives.What does sales need to know about marketing?Marketing folks are not ‘out of touch.’ They are expected to generate demand in a world full of email overload, ad overload, content overload. Being in marketing is not an easy job. Keep that in mind. Think about how they work and put yourself in their shoes when you are communicating new sales initiatives where you need marketing’s help to be successful.For listeners who heard you paint that picture of misalignment and are thinking… shit that’s totally me. What are some ways to remedy this?Meeting frequently and often between marketing leaders and sales leaders - talk about what is working, what is not working. Allow both sides to voice frustrations (I’m generating leads, why aren’t you working them…you’re generating leads, they aren’t any good).Work together and in coordination with operations to create a scalable engine by using a revenue lifecycle and scoring methodology that is adaptable.From top of funnel leads all the way down to revenue, what's at the intersection of sales and marketing?The sweet spot is sales accepted leads.- so it’s not just what leads became ‘qualified’ but what leads were actually accepted into the sales pipeline to be worked.If you stop at MQLs (marketing qualified leads), then you don’t see what leads are worked. If you go to far down the funnel (ie revenue), you start to get into a gray area beyond what marketing has control overHow do you achieve that alignment? Brute force? Culture?Set the expectation at the leadership level. Put regular cadences in place. Create metrics and report on them.This takes TIME - I’d say 12 months to fully get folks into the motion where they understand their numbers, where infrastructure is tweaked on the operations side to enable accurate reporting.Why is Revenue Operations so important? And why give it a separate name?Revenue Operations is still relatively new in the marketplace, but it is the direction we are headed in. It makes a lot of sense because working in silos is ineffective. It all ties back to the customer. All companies have this utopia whereby everything they do enables the best customer experience.Operations play an important role in accomplishing this goal because without the appropriate infrastructure that’s scalable, data points informing marketing decisions and sales conversations, visibility into post-sales and upset opportunities - it isn’t truly possible. How do you get Sales & Marketing talking in a common language?Setting a baseline for success metrics and holding folks accountable to those metrics. Having open, transparent and frequent conversations around how close we are to hitting those success metrics and what can we do as a TEAM to pivot if we are falling shortTeaching less experienced folks how to do this. In a lot of organizations, some people have never done this before, so they have to be taught and coached on how to get there. That’s where strong leadership comes into play.As a RevOps leader, how do you foster great communication?Communicating how what you are doing as a RevOps leader solves a business problem. This isn’t the easiest thing to do for technical people because a lot of RevOps stakeholders are not technical. The most successful people I’ve seen in the RevOps role can take a business problem, go down into the technical details/build, but only share that is relevant to their stakeholders that solves a problem.Creating a dialogue that is frequent and transparent, where feedback is welcome, is best.Lastly, make it part of your regular cadence for any new implementation - whether its an entirely new tool, new feature set, or initiative - making sure you and your team are communicating progress/challenges and working with the training team.What advice do you have for people in terms of having a happy career?Happiness is all perspective. It’s about 25% your situation and 75% your outlook. If you don’t like your job, get as much experience as you can and then change it. If you don’t like your career, get as much experience as you can that is helpful in where you want to go and use your network to pivot. For me, I didn’t exactly know what I wanted to do or be. I knew I liked technology and business, so I went to Georgia Tech. I knew I liked fancy things, so I figured I had to get a job that would support a certain lifecycle. I knew I liked a challenge and didn’t like to be bored, and for me, that resulted in trying all kinds of things.Don’t be hard on yourself if you don’t know what you want to do. Do get out there and start to mark off what you don’t like, so that you can figure out what you do like. I feel very lucky because I finally feel like I am right where I am supposed to be. I love revenue operations - I solve a different business problem every day, and I get to use technology to do it. I am also helping the business which creates a lot of satisfaction for me on a personal level. And, I’m in tech which is a hot space and has good job security.Lastly, I am very fortunate that in today’s technological world, I can work from almost anywhere, I have good health insurance and can support my family. All things that are important to me both personally and professionally.--Lauren Sanborn on LinkedIn.CallRail.Intro music by Wowa via Unminus

Ditch your keyboard as often as possible. Make handwriting your default medium even when it’s counter-intuitiveMeetings:* Ditch your phone/laptop if and when we get back to office lifeRemote:* Turn off all your other apps, including and especially slack and email* No other tabs open* Video-on, hands off mouse and keyboardWrite a landing page by hand; write an email nurture by hand; write out strategy; write out your to do list or projects. You can’t erase easily so you get all your ideas down in a true, unfiltered first draft.Okay so I get all the benefits of remembering shit more but if I start hand writing all my emails my process seems longer with typing my work up. So the argument is that the time you spend focused handwriting that email, combine that with the digitizing part, is still faster and if more quality than starting in Google Docs. Of course you’ll end up typing it, and if you think it’s crazy onerous, think that the average person types 45 words or 200 character per minute; i bet you’ll be faster and your ideas will beg to be put on the pageAnecdote, I find hand-writing unlocks my creative process and actually makes me the final product come together much quickerReading internet articles? Want to actually retain that information? Handwrite your notesTons of research proving that retention is better with handwritten notes.The gist is that your macbook impairs or negativaly impacts learning or quality work because your keyboard typing involves shallower processing compared to handwriting. So, more parts of your brain are used when handwriting vs. just typing, so you're able to store it more accurately.Anecdote, learning coding and it definitely doesn’t come natural; I started with online tutorials, multiple screens, and my IDE; When I started handwriting, I actually started to comprehend the material; took summer off and found that I retained information better than i expected; I’m taking this even further and literally writing all my code by hand; typing code is like driving a racecar after riding a bicycle; my comprehension and confidence is actually improvingNext time you need to write something, try Outline with paper, write draft in keyboard.--Intro music by Wowa via Unminus