The Brainy Business | Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy | Behavioral Economics

Today we are going to be talking about something that is sort of a fact of life whether we like it or not. If you want to live in the world amongst other people and put your personal or professional brand out there, you need to be prepared for negative reviews. This episode was inspired by a long-time listener who has become a friend and colleague – Jeff Pool from the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M University. Thankfully, it wasn’t inspired by him giving a negative review to The Brainy Business or anything like that. Instead, it was something he suggested a while back could be an interesting episode. It felt like the right time with my book just coming out a couple of months ago now, and the recent behavioral economics analysis of Amazon episode where I talked about the power of social proof and how they popularized reviews.  I also asked the BE Thoughtful Revolution for some insights on what they might like to know or what comes to mind when thinking about negative reviews while creating the content for today’s episode. The consensus was based on how to respond to them: Should it be done right away or delayed? Publicly or privately? What tone to use? And more.  Show Notes: [00:07] Today’s episode is dedicated to negative reviews. [00:45] If you want to live in the world amongst other people and put your personal or professional brand out there, you need to be prepared for negative reviews. [03:42] Melina shares an email from her friend Kurt Nelson of the Behavioral Grooves podcast hoping I’d get 4.7 stars on my book. [05:11] It is important to accept that negative reviews are coming and just wrap your head around that. [07:54] Why do we feel these so much more and why do they stick with us differently? Why is their weight heavier than positive reviews? [08:23] The reason we even look at or have influence from reviews and testimonials and star ratings (also known as social proof) is because of our natural tendency to herd. [10:21] Negative reviews are triggering our herding instincts and make the subconscious get scared of what could happen if we get too many more of those in the future. [11:43] Reading or otherwise looking at negative reviews makes us focus on them more than the positive ones because of those herding instincts. [13:34] We have a perception about ourselves and the type of person we are: honest, ethical, good at what we do. When we are confronted with information that threatens that perspective our brains really don’t like it, we want to resolve that cognitive dissonance. [15:12] Even though you don’t like it, there is probably some kernel of truth in the negative thing someone had to say about you or your brand. What if you looked for the learning opportunity in a negative review? [17:00] Don’t ostrich – It may be tempting to avoid reading the reviews because they can be painful, but not knowing what people are saying doesn’t make it so they don’t feel that way (and aren’t sharing with others). [18:48] In general, yes, you should respond to all the comments you get, both good and bad. And, tempting as it may be, don’t delete negative comments. (If they are profane or blatant lies it could be an exception, but in general, this is not a good practice.) [20:12] People aren’t often expecting any response, let alone a kind and open-minded one. You will be surprised at how many people you can bring back around to your side. [23:12] It is best to respond to the person wherever they posted to begin with. [24:30] You want and need that public acknowledgment for all the future people who see the comment. [27:39] Treating this person as a human who deserves kindness triggered some reciprocity and encouraged them to act in kind and, as far as I know, keep listening and following me. [28:29] Not everyone is your customer and that is ok! There are so many people out there who you can or will resonate with; focus on them. [30:54] It is really important to know what you are about, who you are for, and why you do the things you do before you are confronted with a negative review that addresses one of those things. [33:39] The lesson is to know your customer and identify what matters to your brand when you are in a cold state, so you can know what to take to heart and change, and what can be heard and let go of without having to constantly address your strategy. [34:08] There are some times where it makes sense to say you are sorry, of course, but in general, you don’t need to (and actually shouldn’t). [35:29] You can absolutely acknowledge their feelings, but you don’t have to say “sorry” to do that. [37:30] When you identify what matters to you and your company in that cold state, it is also important to know about your brand voice. [38:56] For most brands, it is best to be respectful and kind in your correspondence with customers and others in public and in private. [40:05] Do what you can to reframe your perception to see the opportunity in a negative review. [40:18] Hating negative reviews is natural because of our herding instincts, focusing illusion, fundamental attribution error, and cognitive dissonance, but thankfully understanding that can help you feel better about addressing them, overcoming your instincts that might not be the best initial response, and letting you give the reviewer the benefit of the doubt when crafting responses. [41:08] Don’t jump to apologizing. More often than not it will not work well. [41:21] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [41:23] The Brainy Business was nominated for the best market research podcast of 2021. Vote for The Brainy Business here by August 31! Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman Past Episodes & Other Important Links: The Annual Market Research Podcast Award The Power of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence Melina Palmer: Using Behavioral Economics to Help Businesses Episode 89: Focusing Illusion: Why Thinking About Something Makes It Seem More Important Than It Is (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 92: Fundamental Attribution Error: Why the Pot Insists on Calling the Kettle Black (a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 19: Herding: Come On And Listen…Everyone Else Is Doing It: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 87: Social Proof: How to Use Herding to Boost Engagement and Sales Episode 43: A Guide for You to Create a Brainy Brand Episode 159: Amazon: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Episode Episode 147: What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You: All About Melina’s First Book Episode 152: A Surprise Guest… Episode 157: Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion Episode 33: Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior LabHuman Behavior Lab Episode 16: Framing: How You Say Things Matter More Than What You’re Saying: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 109: Secrets of Motivation and Incentives, Tim Houlihan Interview Episode 144: Disney: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Episode 102: Confirmation Bias: How Your Subconscious Beliefs Shape Your Experiences (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 97: Peak-End Rule: Why Averages Don’t Always Matter (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 60: Surprise and Delight Episode 167: Hindsight Bias (coming soon!) Episode 172: Interview with Prince Ghuman (coming soon!) Cognitive Dissonance (coming soon, episode TBD) Check out International Book Awards Finalist, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to have Dr. Leidy Klotz on the show to talk about how we humans have an instinct for adding things. We want more and often don’t even think about taking things away. But why is that? Why do we have adding instincts? Why are we so averse to less, and how could we see the value in it?  That is a little of what we talk about today in this conversation which centers around Leidy’s new book, Subtract. It’s really fascinating and more than mere minimalism. As Leidy says in the conversation, he isn’t advocating that less is always better, that you never should want more. Instead, this is more focused on thinking about it; considering the benefit of less before making a choice. Plus, you get to learn about his possibly surprising first career before getting into academia!  Show Notes: [00:06] In today’s episode I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Leidy Klotz, author of the new book, Subtract. [03:30] Leidy shares about himself, his background, and how he has gotten to behavioral science.  [05:44] There is a way that people should go and then what they will actually do.   [06:34] Engineering is the creative application of science. There is a huge overlap between engineering, architecture, and behavioral science.  [08:05] People have been doing choice architecture for a long time, it has just been called marketing.  [08:44] Leidy was a professional soccer player and he wrote a book about sustainability through soccer. Soccer is a very systems-oriented sport.  [10:39] He learned a lot of things by playing soccer.   [13:32] He shares what inspired him to write his book, Subtract.  [15:04] When we encounter systems that we can improve in multiple ways, why is our first instinct to add? [16:52] When people try to improve something their first thought is to think about what can we add to this situation to make it better.  [19:01] More often than not, we don’t even think about getting rid of something.  [20:52] Instead of a longer list of to-dos, we need a list of “stop doings.”  [23:07] As humans, we want to display our competence.  [25:28] We can also show competence by subtracting, we just have to do more of it for it to be noticeable.  [28:30] You can be a minimalist by not acquiring stuff, but that is not subtracting.  [29:39] Left to our own devices, we are not going to think of taking away.  [30:40] A good lesson is to subtract first. If you subtract first you are more likely to think about it in later situations.   [32:53] Less is not a loss. Less is an improvement. [34:33] We tend to think of add and subtract as opposites. They are not opposites, they are complementary ways to make a change.  [37:06] When you are arguing for subtraction or trying to get people to think of subtraction, help them think about the thing they added elsewhere.  [37:52] When we add something, we are left with the original situation plus whatever we have added. When we take something away, we are left with an improved original situation plus that thing we took away which we can use somewhere else.  [40:22] When you have written something, taking it out is a really hard thing. Leidy and Melina share some about their book writing processes.  [42:22] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [45:15] Melina’s award-winning first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less by Leidy Klotz How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be by Katy Milkman Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness by Richard Thaler and Cass R. Sunstein Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don't by Jim Collins Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing by Marie Kondo A More Beautiful Question: The Power of Inquiry to Spark Breakthrough Ideas by Warren Berger Connect with Leidy:  Leidy on LinkedIn Leidy on Twitter University of Virginia Past Episodes & Other Important Links:  Episode 35: NUDGES & Choice Architecture: Introducing Nobel-winning Concepts: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 9: Loss Aversion: Why Getting New Stuff Is Not The Same: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 139: Endowment Effect: Why We Like Our Stuff More, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 112: The IKEA Effect and Effort Heuristic, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 11: Anchoring & Adjustment: The 1 Word That Increased Sales 38%: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 16: Framing: How You Say Things Matter More Than What You’re Saying: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 70: How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals Episode 99: Bikeshedding: Why The Simplest Tasks Can Keep You Stuck (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 68: Counterfactual Thinking: Why We ‘What If’ And ‘If Only’ (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 71: Prefactual Thinking: How to Turn “What If” Into “Why Not” – Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode 89: Focusing Illusion: Why Thinking About Something Makes It Seem More Important Than It Is (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 171: Paradox of Choice (coming soon!) Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to have a fellow behavioral science podcaster, Dr. Nick Hobson on the show. His podcast is called, It’s All Just a Bunch of BS. He also writes for The Behaviorist and is the chief scientist at Emotive Technologies. So, why did I say at the top of the show that this would likely show you a different side of Nick than you may have seen or heard before? It is because we really focus on philosophy, which is different than anything I’ve had on the show before and was a lot of fun to chat about. I must admit, in my undergrad I really hated philosophy. I’m not sure if I had a bad teacher or if I just wasn’t ready for it yet, but it was one of my least favorite classes. As time has passed, I’ve come to realize that the types of questions I love to ask and my personal approach to applying behavioral economics are built on a foundation of philosophy. So even if you’ve not been a fan of the field in the past, I recommend you stick around. I think you’re going to like the conversation.  Show Notes: [00:06] In today’s episode I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Nick Hobson for a fascinating conversation that even if you know Nick, I’m guessing you haven’t heard him talk about on a show before. [01:13] In this episode, we really focus on philosophy, which I found to be so interesting and I hope you will too. [03:51] Nick shares a funny story about being a doctor and using it for a dinner reservation with his wife. [05:49] Nick has a doctorate degree in social psychology and social neuroscience. His dissertation was about the psychology of neuroscience and rituals.  [08:03] He was very interested in rituals and that determined the next five years of his life.  [09:45] Now he is an applied behavioral scientist.  [12:31] There is a great deal of value that comes with philosophy, the arts, and philosophical thinking.  [13:57] Good scientists are always trying to push the boundaries, explore the outer edges, and breakthrough with scientific intervention.  [16:52] We answer questions with tools of measurement. Tools of measurement are the foundation of any science.  [18:20] Nick shares about the “trolley problem.” [20:20] Nick shares how he transitioned from the space of rituals and about the work he does today.  [21:43] Behavioral scientists and all business owners are interested in the point of action that a person engages (and re-engages) in over and over. What is that decision process? [23:45] There are a lot of rituals on the external, customer-facing side, and the internal employee side as well.   [25:12] We are ritual creatures.  [26:16] Nick talks about the types of consumer projects they are working on.  [27:36] He shares a specific client scenario he worked through.  [29:16] The problem is never the price. It is about all the stuff that happens before. If you can showcase the value you are providing people will buy.  [30:25] Two areas of opportunity for improvement for his client were joy and respect. Once the areas of opportunity are discovered you can create strategic interventions.  [34:02] For all the behavior that we are looking at and observing, let’s not forget about what is actually happening inside the mind, which are the precursors to those behaviors.  [35:06] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [36:54] Melina’s award-winning first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending by Elizabeth Dunn & Dr. Michael Norton Rebel Talent: Why It Pays to Break the Rules at Work and in Life by Francesca Gino How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be by Katy Milkman & Angela Duckworth Connect with Nick:  Nick on LinkedIn Nick on Twitter Emotive Technologies It’s All Just a Bunch of BS Podcast The Behaviorist Apex Scoring Systems Past Episodes & Other Important Links:  What a 5-Step Checklist at Johns Hopkins Can Teach You About Life and Business Episode 126: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem Episode 119: Creating a Habit of Curiosity: Interview with Bec Weeks, Cofounder of Pique Episode 60: Surprise and Delight Episode 35: NUDGES & Choice Architecture: Introducing Nobel-Winning Concepts: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 151: How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to have Dr. Matt Johnson on the show to talk about the application of neuroscience and psychology to the business world. A professor, researcher, and writer, Matt received his Ph.D. in Cognitive Psychology/Neuroscience from Princeton University in 2013. His focus now is ultimately about bridging the gap between science and business, and to this end, he works across several fields including behavioral economics, consumer neuroscience, and experiential marketing. A contributor to major news outlets including Forbes, Entrepreneur, Business Insider, and VICE and writer for Psychology Today, Matt regularly provides expert opinion and thought leadership on a range of topics related to the human side of business. He advises both start-ups and large brands in his native San Francisco and has served as an expert-in-residence to Nike’s Innovation Team in Portland, Oregon. Among other things today, we are going to talk about the book he co-wrote, called Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes our Brains. It’s fascinating stuff you definitely want to listen to today! Show Notes: [00:07] In today’s episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Dr. Matt Johnson, co-author of Blindsight. [01:38] Among other things today, we are going to talk about the book he co-wrote, called Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes our Brains. [03:30] Matt shares more about who he is and how he got into behavioral science. He has always been driven by a curiosity about why we do what we do.  [05:33] For the past five years he has been working to explore the deep connection between neuroscience and marketing.  [08:16] They started working together as neuroscientists and marketers because of the shared realization of the similarities just separated by vocabulary.  [09:06] The mind and brain are fundamentally the same entity. They really just differ in terms of the language which is used to describe it.  [10:35] It is clear that the mind and the brain have a relationship. It is not immediately obvious what this relationship is.  [11:46] It is understood at this point that the brain produces the mind.  [14:06] “If you are led to deeply believe that your chosen shoe brand makes you a better basketball player, who’s to say that it doesn’t?” -Matt Johnson [14:35] He is very interested in the ways the consumer world shapes our belief systems and our associations that we have given brands and products.  These shifts can actually change our experiences and our perceptions of reality.  [16:04] Each new advertisement you see of Coca-Cola has changed the brain in such a way where it changes your fundamental concept of what you are consuming and this fundamentally shifts your experience.  There is this gap between objectivity and physical reality.  [17:27] Brands and consumer experiences are such a fascinating thing to study.  [19:43] Even if you have maximum exposure to the brand, they still invest in additional advertisements because of the exposure effect. The exposure effect moves the need more to preferences.  [21:29] Red Bull has continued to expand their target market to the point that now they are speaking to each of us. They started with a narrow association strategy and expanded strategically as they went.   [23:45] It is crucial to maintain brand perception by having a consistent execution with all your brand identifiers.  [24:33] Adding in a little newness can actually increase preferences even more instead of just repeat exposure.  [25:50] Matt shares about the Cadbury Gorilla and the value of doing something unexpected.  [27:11] When your consumers come to expect a certain type of brand personality or service, giving them something totally and completely different is a fantastic way to drive attention.  [27:59] The key to grabbing attention is going against the grain.  [29:57] You have to understand what the current goals of the brand are to choose the correct strategy.  [31:28] Brands have much less control over their brand image than they ever have before so brands really need to rethink how they’re constructing brand perception to begin with.  [33:23] Brands really need to adapt to this new media landscape through co-creation of the brand personality and also leaning into user-generated content.  [35:13] Matt shares his favorite tidbit from the book: psychology essentialism.  [37:13] A little story can actually go a long way. The story enhances the value of the product.  [39:31] Just like brands compete in terms of their positioning and products, they also compete in terms of their story. One of the goals of storytelling is empathy.  [40:46] We can’t empathize with groups, but we empathize with individuals very easily. Ideally oriented your story to an individual will enhance the empathic response.  [42:48] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [43:55] Melina’s first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains by Matt Johnson How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be by Katy Milkman Predictably Irrational, Revised and Expanded Edition: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions by Dan Ariely Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown Power of Story The Life-Saving Skill of Story: The Life-Saving Skill of Story (Resilience) by Michelle Auerbach Connect with Matt:  Matt on LinkedIn Pop Neuro Pop Neuro on Twitter Matt on Twitter Past Episodes & Other Important Links:  Cadbury Gorilla Episode 59: Pain of Paying: Why The First Item In A Purchase Is The Hardest: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 12: Relativity: The Brain Can’t Value One-Off Items: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 11: Anchoring & Adjustment: The 1 Word That Increased Sales 38%: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 8: What is Value? Episode 4: Questions or Answers Episode 151: How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman Episode 101: Dan Ariely Interview: Discussing Shapa, the Numberless Scale Episode 123: Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 145: The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

I know these behavioral economics analysis episodes are very popular. The ones on Starbucks and Peloton have quickly risen through the ranks to become the third and fourth most downloaded episodes ever on the show (and as we are on the precipice of our 3 year anniversary that is a pretty big feat!). There are also analysis episodes on Apple Card, Costco, and Disney and as you know today we will be talking about Amazon.  I am so honored to announce that What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is now an award-winning book! The International Book Awards were just announced and my book was a finalist in two categories. According to their website and press release, books published from January 2019 to May 2021 were eligible and there were over 2000 entries amongst the various categories.  Show Notes: [00:08] Today’s episode is a behavioral economics analysis of Amazon. [01:50] I am so honored to announce that What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is now an award-winning book! [03:27] In case this is your first behavioral economics analysis episode with The Brainy Business, what you can expect is a fairly rapid-fire list of things I see from Amazon where they are using tactics that tie back to concepts from behavioral economics. [06:05] And this gets to the first and possibly most important piece of behavioral science built into the entire company of Amazon, which comes back to the biggest mistake I have said time and again most businesses make when trying to implement behavioral science into their work or just working on most projects: understanding the REAL problem you are trying to solve. [06:43] Taking the time upfront to understand the behavior that needs to be changed and what might be motivating it (and on the flip side, how to make it easy for people to change) is so important to the success of Amazon. [08:28] Truly understanding the problem before jumping into a solution is incredibly important for every business. [09:01] This brings me to another cool way that Amazon thinks differently by reframing its approach to projects. Matthew Confer and I talked about this on his recent episode on The Brainy Business, and it is called the “press release method” or the “working backward” method. [10:10] This simple mental shift, framing the project differently, can help people get out of their myopic approach to what is in front of them and ask some great questions. [11:11] Reframing with the press release method can help you to ask the right questions early enough and avoid potential cataclysmic failures. [11:29] Amazon really took herding and social proof to a new level. [12:17] Star ratings, reviews, and recommendations for what other people “like us” have done before are hugely influential in getting someone to buy. [14:02] With books, they also let you overcome that additional uncertainty by reading a few pages and taking a peek inside. [14:45] The more people who use Amazon, the better it gets. There are more options to buy from, sellers are heavily influenced to keep honest and sell good stuff or they will get bad ratings. [16:04] To help overcome the loss aversion and fear of regret, Amazon makes most returns incredibly easy. [17:17] Another way Amazon makes it easy to buy is with their 1 click purchase set up. [18:54] Simplicity and reduced friction while working with the brain makes a huge difference. [19:23] It is so important to talk about the Prime membership at Amazon. Paid on an annual basis, there are lots of perks and benefits from being a Prime member, the biggest arguably being free 2-day shipping on a huge number of items. [22:27] If you create a huge amount of value that drives loyalty and other purchases and engagement and revenue, the subscription is more of a mechanism to build the habit. And, as we are seeing from Amazon, can be far more valuable than the cost of the membership. [23:26] Look for the value you can create to make it an amazing deal that people will love and want to talk about and you’re likely on the right track. [24:44] If you are selling items, it may feel like you are being pushy to have the default be a subscription and let someone self-select to change to a single-time purchase, but that is all in your logical conscious brain. As long as you are creating value and helping someone get something they want and need, there is likely a great value to them in offering a subscription or membership or whatever the somewhat scary suggestion might be. [26:28] The main concepts with Prime Day are loss aversion and scarcity. Time pressure from short-term offers with limited quantities makes people overcome their risk aversion and become very loss averse. Scarcity with herding makes us feel something is a great value and want to jump on offers. [28:07] With how easily our brains get overwhelmed, it is amazing that the 200 million Prime subscribers are able to find what they need and buy it so quickly (across Amazon, half of purchases are made in 15 minutes or less). [31:17] They make an unbelievable amount of information seem almost effortless, which is an amazing feat when you think about it. [31:54] Melina’s Top 3 Tips for Incorporating These Lessons: 1) You need to spend more time thinking about the problem you are trying to solve. [32:35] 2) Use social proof and herding whenever you can. [33:11] 3) Make suggestions! People don’t always know what they want, so help them find their path. [34:19] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [34:24] Melina’s first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini Past Episodes & Other Important Links: A Conversation with Cass Sunstein on Behavioral Science and Using Nudges: Recommendations for Overcoming Covid-19 Working Backwards (the Amazon Method) Amazon Prime Reaches 200 Million Members Worldwide Total E-Commerce Sales During Amazon Prime Day Surpass $11 Billion Amazon Statistics You Should Know: Opportunities to Make the Most of America’s Top Online Marketplace Episode 73: Starbucks: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Episode 47: A Behavioral Economics Analysis of Costco Episode 42: Apple Card: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Episode 86: Peloton: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Episode 144: Disney: A Behavioral Economics Analysis Episode 157: Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion Episode 110: Survivorship Bias: Stop Missing What’s Missing (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 16: Framing: How You Say Things Matter More Than What You’re Saying: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 126: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem Episode 158: 3 Steps to Better Decision Making, An Interview with Matthew Confer Episode 18: Priming: Why You Should Never Have A Difficult Conversation With Someone Holding An Iced Coffee: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 19: Herding: Come On And Listen…Everyone Else Is Doing It: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 87: Social Proof: How to Use Herding to Boost Engagement and Sales Episode 21: Habits: 95% Of Decisions Are Habitual – Which Side Is Your Business On?: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 106: Network Effect: How to Leverage the Power of a Group (A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode) Episode 72: Friction – What It Is And How To Reduce It, with Roger Dooley Episode 9: Loss Aversion: Why Getting New Stuff Is Not The Same: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 14: Scarcity: Why We Think Less Available Means More Value: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 32: The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making Episode 142: Status Quo Bias: Why Change Feels Terrifying, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 123: Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 41: Structuring Complex Choices: The “S” in NUDGES: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 20: Defaults: Why The Pre-Selected Choice Wins More Often Than Not: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 31: Mirror Neurons: A Fascinating Discovery From A Monkey, A Hot Day, And An Ice Cream Cone: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 12: Relativity: The Brain Can’t Value One-Off Items: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 11: Anchoring & Adjustment: The 1 Word That Increased Sales 38%: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Check out International Book Awards Finalist, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am delighted to have Matthew Confer on the show to be share insights from (and beyond) his popular Ted Talk: Before you Decide: 3 Steps to Better Decision Making.  This talk came out before the pandemic, and Matthew also shares with us about how he and the team at Abilitie helped clients to shift through these changing times to make better decisions when there were so many unexpected shifts and choices to be made (and with a lot on the line).  As the VP of Strategy and Business Development, he definitely knows a lot on these topics and he has fascinating insights I can’t wait to share with you.  Show Notes: [00:07] In today’s episode I’m excited to introduce you to Matthew Confer to share the three things you need to do before you decide. [02:49] Matthew shares more about who he is and what he does. He works for a company called Abilitie and does leadership training simulations.  [04:06] They focus on three core competencies of effective leaders: people management skills, financial acumen, and strategic thinking and decision making.  [05:53] Melina shares how she did a similar simulation in college.  [08:00] Adaptability is one of the things that we want rising leaders and executives to have.  [09:16] There is a very big difference between doing and thinking about doing. [12:22] The biggest part of the simulation is that each of the participants have three time tokens of where they want to invest their time. It looks at how you piece together all the things we struggle with as leaders and make the best decision of how to use your limited time.  [15:11] From his experiences, Matthew found that there are specific traits that top teams do.   [16:18] After years of observation, he created a decision-making framework with the 3 steps for better decision-making (as showcased in his Ted Talk). Step 1) Challenge the Constraints.  [17:41] When you are looking to apply behavioral science, the spot where most people go wrong is understanding the problem that you are trying to solve.  [18:42] Time pressure is a form of stress and it changes the way we make a decision.  [20:24] Just because you challenge the constraints doesn’t mean you have to go and make a crazy decision. It just helps to see what is holding you back from making this huge breakthrough.  [21:01] Step 2) Embrace a Premortem. A premortem is so powerful because you are conditioned to not think you are going to fail.   [23:44] Planning fallacy is closely tied to optimism bias where we think we are going to be faster, quicker, and better.  [25:59] 80% of us think that we are above-average drivers. He noticed this in the simulation with leaders also.  [27:10] Step 3) Check the Basics. When decisions get more complex, small details tend to get missed.  [29:39] Taking the time to make sure you have really identified your basics is super important.  [30:01] Matthew shares an example of step one: challenging the constraints. The clients he saw that were most successful during the pandemic were the ones that threw the rule book out the window.  [32:03] It is important to reframe a problem when it comes to you. If your status quo has been shifted you should not feel like you have to do what you said you are going to do before.  [32:57] Next he shares an example for step two.  [34:12] If you're not having a conversation about what could go wrong, you are really missing an opportunity to plan effectively.  You need to put plans B and C in place to get in front of some of the problems.  [35:27] You need to be assured when you are making a drastic change or big decision, make sure those small details aren’t missed along the way.  [38:23] One of Matthew’s favorite decision-making techniques is the “press release method”.  [40:31] Writing what someone might say about you in the worst-case scenario is an interesting practice to help keep you on track so you don’t mess up because you know how bad it can be at the end.    [42:45] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [44:37] Melina’s first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman Connect with Matthew:  Matthew on LinkedIn Matthew on Twitter Matthew’s Ted Talk Learn to Lead Podcast Past Episodes & Other Important Links:  Amazon “Press Release” Method To Reach Your Goals, Imagine You Already Tried and Failed What a 5-Step Checklist at Johns Hopkins Can Teach You About Life and Business Episode 51: Time Discounting: The I’ll Start Monday Effect – My Favorite Concept!: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 74: Time Pressure: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 14: Scarcity: Why We Think Less Available Means More Value: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 126: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem Episode 4: Questions or Answers Episode 34: Optimism Bias: The Good And The Bad Of Those Rose-Colored Glasses: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 114: Stressed and Overcommitted? Tips to Tackle Planning Fallacy, a behavioral economics foundations episode Episode 16: Framing: How You Say Things Matter More Than What You’re Saying: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 142: Status Quo Bias: Why Change Feels Terrifying, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 129: Melina’s Go-To Brainy Books: Behavioral Economics Books You Need To Read Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia  

Today I am beyond excited to have Bob Cialdini here to talk about the newly expanded version of his book Influence. There are 220 additional pages and a 7th principle of persuasion that has been added, which he explains in the conversation.  If you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while or have a background in behavioral economics, behavioral science, or psychology, you have likely heard the name “Cialdini.” His work paved the way for so many careers and I’m pleased to report that he is just an incredibly nice person who is a delight to talk to.  During our conversation, you will notice that I ask questions from listeners just like you – how exciting is that? These questions were posed from within my free global community of behavioral economics and behavioral science enthusiasts, the BE Thoughtful Revolution, which you can join today, and maybe you’ll hear a future guest answer one of your questions during the show!  Show Notes: [00:08] In today’s episode I am so excited to be speaking with Dr. Robert Cialdini about the newly expanded version of his globally acclaimed book, Influence. [01:17] Cialdini’s work paved the way for so many careers [03:07] Bob shares more about who he is and what he does. He is a behavioral scientist with an emphasis on persuasion and social influence.  [05:52] He found a small footprint of principles that seemed to be employed in all the professions he studies and he decided to write a book on the topic.  [08:18] Bob shares the first six principles that he talks about in the book. The first is reciprocity—that people will give back to people that have given to them first.  [09:27] The second principle is liking—we like to say yes to those we know and like. We can identify genuine similarities that exist between us and then raise them to consciousness. We can also give genuine compliments.  [10:22] The third principle is social proof. When people are uncertain they don’t look inside themselves for answers so they look outside. One key place they look is to their peers.  [12:55] The fourth principle is authority.  Besides looking at peers the other principal source they look to for information is the voices of experts or authorities of the topic.  [13:41] The fifth principle is commitment and consistency. We all have a preference to be consistent with what we have already said and done especially in public.  [15:00] The sixth principle is scarcity. We want more of those things we have less of. We find those things that are scarce, rare, and dwindling in availability more attractive.  [15:47] After writing the first six principles, he started to recognize that there was one principle he had missed. The seventh principle is unity.  [18:55] Bob shares his story and lesson about the Cuban Missile Crisis.  [20:37] It turned out that Kennedy had an act of reciprocation in place and had not drawn a hard line as many thought.   [21:54] It was a reciprocal concession that helped end the Cuban Missile Crisis.  [23:48] It turns out if you look at loyalty and advocacy of your product and service it is not a problem-free experience they are looking for. Instead, it is a problem freed experience. Bob shares a problem that was resolved in favor of the customer.   [25:04] There are going to be mistakes and bobbles. If those people can then resolve the problems quickly that is what is perceived as a special kind of gift to the customer who then feels obligated to give something special in return.  [26:08] When there are mistakes, there should be budgets available to allow you to fix that mistake.  [28:07] If there is a problem, it is an opportunity to have this reciprocity benefit.  [29:13] Melina asks a listener question from Adnan: “How do your strategies of influence adapt to a digital world, for example, social media?” [31:05] The platforms and delivery systems on which those principles are presented can change but the principles don’t change. [32:18] One principle has gained greater traction than all the others with the advent of the internet and that is social proof. People now have access to the views of others all around them. 98% of people check product reviews before making a purchase.  [34:01] Another listener question from Brant: “As people are becoming more familiar with the principles of persuasion and know they are there, are they less effective now?” We should not resist those principles being employed on us if they are being employed honestly.  [36:44] Where it is true, we want people to use these principles on us. They inform us.  We have to guard against the manipulation and counterfeit of these principles.  [38:18] We have to be in a position to reward those who use these principles to inform us properly, but we have to sting those people who undercut their validity.   [40:11] When he wrote the first edition of the book there were no prior readers so he sent out an invitation for the readers to send him an account of when they witnessed the principles working on or for them successfully. He included Readers’ Reports throughout the most recent edition.  [42:21] He is thinking about writing his next book as all readers’ reports with a comment from him on each.  [43:01] Bob shares a story of the unity principle working for him after he recognized its power.  [46:00] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [48:33] Melina’s first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini  Pre-Suasion: A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade by Robert Cialdini Friction ―The Untapped Force That Can Be Your Most Powerful Advantage by Roger Dooley Connect with Bob: Influence at Work Principles of Persuasion Workshops Bob on Twitter Past Episodes & Other Important Links: Episode 23: Reciprocity: Give A Little, Get A Lot: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 87: Social Proof: How to Use Herding to Boost Engagement and Sales Episode 149: Familiarity Bias: Why the Devil You Know Feels Safer Than the Devil You Don’t, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 76: The Brainy Benefits of Gratitude Episode 120: Precommitment: Boosting Cooperation for Yourself and Others, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 14: Scarcity: Why We Think Less Available Means More Value: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 72: Friction – What It Is And How To Reduce It, with Roger Dooley Episode 39: Expect Error: The “E” in NUDGES: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 40: Give Feedback: The “G” in NUDGES: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 60: Surprise and Delight Episode 16: Framing: How You Say Things Matter More Than What You’re Saying: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am so excited to have Scott Miller back on the podcast to talk about marketing and branding, some of my favorite things! I really love the way Scott puts his books together, broken into 30 chapters with great, brain-friendly tips that you can begin implementing one day at a time. Essentially, the thought is that you can take a month and learn one lesson each day to uplevel in that particular area.  As you’ll hear more in the conversation, this is the second book in a planned series of 10; the first of which Scott discussed Management Mess to Leadership Success last time he was on the show. Today is about going from Marketing Mess to Brand Success, plus a funny story about a popular product that was originally called the “I-Suck” – can you guess what it is? Hear the answer and learn more about Scott and his work in the show.  Show Notes: [00:06] In today’s episode, I’m delighted to bring back Scott Miller of Franklin Covey. [01:17] Today is about going from a marketing mess to brand success.  [04:15] Scott shares more about who he is and what he does. He is a 25 year associate of the Franklin Covey Company.  [05:00] Today, we focus on Marketing Mess to Brand Success – the second of a ten-book series.  [05:56] If you have something to say, write a book. Your book has not been written until you have written your book.  [07:44] Scott’s books are very practical and they all follow the same format with 30 challenges. The chapters are very intentionally breezy and short.  [09:14] There is enormous power in teaching through your messes.  [10:38] Scott shares his favorite marketing messes from the book.  [12:51] A lesson he learned is that you can’t control all the outcomes of a marketing campaign. He shares some of the lessons he has learned in his book.  [14:49] Melina shares her own funny story from a marketing campaign she was part of.  [17:25] It’s The Customer, Stupid is the first challenge in his book. As a marketer, you have to be the voice of the customer.  [18:55] The best salesperson isn’t the person who has committed their third-quarter goal to memory, they’ve committed their client’s third-quarter goal to memory.  [20:07] We tend to market the way we like to be marketed to. Don’t always do what you like and know best. It may not always be the right vehicle.  [22:34] Marketers need to be close to the cash.  [23:27] A marketer’s number one job is to generate revenue-paying clients.  [26:38] There is a massive difference between facts and your feelings, emotions, and opinions.  [27:48] As marketers have you done your research? Do you know what circumstance your client is in or are you guessing? [29:38] What you say are the facts might just be your own biases creeping in because you are so passionate about your idea.  [30:22] 93% of organizations achieve success with an emergent strategy, not their deliberate strategy. They often have to pivot and search for new opportunities.  [32:02] It is important to speak your customers’ language.  [33:15] The biggest messaging mistake people make is that they tell their story. They don’t tell a story that their client can find themselves in.  [36:01] Never forget you have two buyers. You have an internal and external buyer.  [37:58] Marketing is very reactive. Branding is this touchstone and is proactive.  [39:35] You have to build a brand and earn a brand with some of the outcomes of your marketing efforts. You need to have a strong marketing strategy that helps you build revenue and a brand.  [40:07] Your brand is a result of this: did you make and keep a promise? Brands are hard to build.  [41:19] Scott shares his story about a brand being a memory with Ralph Lauren. [44:51] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [45:47] Melina’s first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Marketing Mess to Brand Success: 30 Challenges to Transform Your Organization's Brand (and Your Own) by Scott Miller Management Mess to Leadership Success: 30 Challenges to Become the Leader You Would Follow by Scott Miller Speed of Trust: The One Thing That Changes Everything by Stephen M. R. Covey The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey You're Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence by Jon Levy The Life-Saving Skill of Story: The Life-Saving Skill of Story by Michelle Auerbach Building a StoryBrand: Clarify Your Message So Customers Will Listen by Donald Miller Marketing Made Simple: A Step-by-Step StoryBrand Guide for Any Business by Donald Miller Neurobranding: Strategies for shaping consumer behavior by Dr. Peter Steidl Connect with Scott:  Scott’s Website On Leadership with Scott Miller Podcast Franklin Covey Website Scott on Twitter Past Episodes & Other Important Links: Episode 148: The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey Episode 69: Management Mess To Leadership Success, an Interview with Scott Miller, EVP of Thought Leadership at FranklinCovey Episode 150: Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, an interview with Jon Levy, author of You’re Invited Episode 145: The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach Episode 147: What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You: All About Melina’s First Book Episode 18: Priming: Why You Should Never Have A Difficult Conversation With Someone Holding An Iced Coffee: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 102: Confirmation Bias: How Your Subconscious Beliefs Shape Your Experiences Episode 126: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem Episode 44: Rebrand, Refresh or Reinforce? Episode 43: A Guide for You to Create a Brainy Brand Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am excited to share a favorite analogy I came up with while writing my book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You. It has also been awesome to see how well this is resonating with readers, at speaking engagements, and in the interviews I’ve done so far. It is one of those great comparisons that people just get. Which I love!  I know a lot of people have been asking questions like “How do I start applying behavioral economics in my business?” or “What is the best approach?” or “Where do I start?”  This idea of behavioral baking is my answer. Because it has resonated so well, I felt it needed its own dedicated episode, so here we are.  Show Notes: [00:06] Today’s episode is all about behavioral baking. [02:21] Once you have an understanding of some key concepts in behavioral economics, it is time to start combining them for application. [03:18] Understanding the ingredients is important as you get started. A very basic knowledge can get you ready for some easy recipes. You will probably start out with something simple like a boxed mix as you establish a comfort zone. [04:56] Each new step presents another opportunity to learn, but you will grow as you rise to each challenge.  [05:19] Lesson: even when you are trying to copy something, it is harder than it looks and will take a little practice to master that new technique. [05:52] The ingredients you learn about individually at first are the concepts. They are your butter, sugar, flour, and eggs. [07:28] You don’t need every single ingredient every single time, and you don’t need to be too heavy-handed with any ingredient. What you DO need to know before you jump in is…what are you making!? [08:04] This is the part where most businesses go wrong, not spending enough time really understanding the problem before jumping into solution mode. [10:23] An example where I used this in my corporate work. [11:53] Choices are relative and heavily context-dependent. [12:25] Working with the brain will make it easier to understand and solve problems in your business. But if you don’t take the time up front to understand what you are trying to accomplish, you will still be throwing noodles at the wall. [13:49] With the consequences so distant, it is easy to ignore and not change behavior. And still, your logical brain’s approach would likely be to go with logical arguments for why this matters. [15:50] Your brain is programmed to wonder what could be (optimism bias) and fear for what might happen if you choose to leave it there and it was a winner (loss aversion). [17:12] Change doesn’t have to be hard. Changing the natural rules of the subconscious brain that have been developing for generations is hard. Understanding them and working with those habits can make seemingly insurmountable changes become easy. [18:38] The result is often more important than the path to get there. [19:56] Understanding the result you want to help your customer, member, or client experience is so important. [20:29] Remember that your brain will want to educate and feel like throwing in some extra logic “couldn’t hurt,” but it absolutely can.  [22:02] Trying to force education can actually backfire and cause people to make worse decisions in multiple areas of life. Once their brain is calmer they may have the bandwidth to learn more and build on the foundation.  [24:03] Behavioral baking is a way of thinking that can help you use behavioral economics to get to that outcome. [26:25] I’ve been a big baker my whole life. Listeners have suggested it might be fun to have me share recipes from The Brainy Business and what I’m baking (to keep the behavioral baking concept going)...what do you think? Good idea or weird? Let me know using the links below. [27:21] The result is often more important than the path to get there. [30:19] Melina’s first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Past Episodes & Other Important Links: Episode 75: The Littery – Interview with CEO Michael Manniche Episode 101: Dan Ariely Interview: Discussing Shapa, the Numberless Scale Episode 126: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem Episode 112: The IKEA Effect and Effort Heuristic, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 16: Framing: How You Say Things Matter More Than What You’re Saying: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 34: Optimism Bias: The Good And The Bad Of Those Rose-Colored Glasses: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 9: Loss Aversion: Why Getting New Stuff Is Not The Same: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 154: Failure is an Opportunity not Ending, with Madeline Quinlan Get What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am honored to be joined by Madeline (Maddie) Quinlan, co-founder of Salient. Just like last week’s guest, Nuala Walsh, you’ve heard Maddie’s voice when she was part of the contingent who came on to discuss the Global Association of Applied Behavioral Scientists, or GAABS, when it first launched in the fall of 2020.  In addition to being head of membership and a co-founder of GAABS, in her role as a director of Salient, Maddie works as a behavioral scientist and has expertise spanning private, public, and not-for-profit organizations. She focuses primarily on the areas of finance, energy, and risk management. I also love that her bio states that she believes in “relentless betterment and radical authenticity” – great word choice! Show Notes: [00:06] In today’s episode, I’m very delighted to introduce you to Maddie Quinlan, co-founder of Salient. [01:01] In addition to being head of membership and a co-founder of GAABS, in her role as a director of Salient, Maddie works as a behavioral scientist and has expertise spanning private, public, and not-for-profit organizations. [03:11] Maddie shares more about who she is and what she does. She has been working exclusively as a behavioral scientist for the last three years and prior to that, she worked a lot in finance.  [04:26] She shares more about her leap from finance to behavioral science.  [06:07] She ended up leaving her job in finance to go from Canada to England to obtain her master’s degree in behavioral science from the London School of Economics.  [06:46] Melina shares her (very similar!) story about the moment she knew her destiny was in behavioral economics.  [08:52] Maddie met her business partner through the program in London and they started Salient in the middle of doing their dissertations.  [11:38] If you are really pursuing something that rings true to you or something that you are incredibly passionate about...something that really embodies who you are...it becomes so much more. When you live and work that way, you end up attracting others with the same perspective and interests. Then, you can all work together to elevate that common passion over time. You find your tribe.  [12:24] Any individual behavioral scientist can still move things, but if we all band together then that is where really fundamental and impactful change can happen.  [13:59] Salient was created to bridge the gap from the academic side and practical application side and be able to take them to different sectors.  [15:32] In the world of behavioral science and behavior change, we know that some things work and we know that a lot of things don’t. [16:59] She shares one of her favorite projects in the pension space.  [17:33] If you want somebody to do something you must make it easy.  [18:57] What people think and say they want is very different from how they actually behave and show up.  [21:12] Context definitely matters when deciding if you start with questions or just jump into testing. In an ideal world you can do some qualitative testing to inform your more large and widespread quantitative work.  [22:12] They suggest piloting a lot. It is beneficial for clients, project owners, and behavioral scientists.  [25:10] Just because something didn’t happen the way you wanted it to, doesn’t mean that it is bad. It can be a good opportunity to dig in a little bit further.  [25:27] The biggest mistake businesses make when they go to apply behavioral science or behavioral economics is they start working on the wrong problem and jump straight into “solving” mode.  [27:10] The insights on what doesn’t work are just as valuable as what does.  [28:39] In her dissertation study, they found that the meditation group had a measurably higher rate of temporal (time) discounting than the control and the jazz condition. People were actually more likely to consume in the present and choose that smaller “sooner” reward over a larger “later” reward.  [29:50] We as a field need to embrace the results instead of feeling like there is a failure in a null or negative result.  [32:01] We would never have more questions if we didn’t run into roadblocks with intended results.  [33:42] You really want to shape your experiments for everything you want to find out and how you can minimize your confounding variables as much as possible.  [35:28] If we were to publish all of the behavioral insights that companies are actually using, we would all be able to do a lot better. There is a way for us to come together and share working techniques to help everyone.  [37:31] When we are changing human behavior, the risk of doing it properly is really high in some cases. Attention to the quality and rigor with which we are conducting ourselves in this field is going to be even more important.  [39:22] Maddie shares what else she is looking forward to in the next five years.  [41:06] She thinks the next phase of behavioral science will have a bigger focus on personalization. The next frontier will be tailoring individualization in behavioral science.  [43:01] Remember, there is a person behind every decision.  [45:02] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [46:41] Melina’s first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You is officially available on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: Melina@TheBrainyBusiness.com The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s new book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Save More Tomorrow: Practical Behavioral Finance Solutions to Improve 401(k) Plans by Shlomo Benartzi Connect with Maddie:  Salient Website Salient on Twitter Maddie on Twitter Maddie on LinkedIn The Global Association of Applied Behavioural Scientists (GAABS) Past Episodes & Other Important Links: Episode 121: Meet GAABS! Interview with founding members of the Global Association of Applied Behavioral Scientists Episode 153: Only 1% of People Blow the Whistle at Work—How to Fix That, with Nuala Walsh Episode 126: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem Episode 20: Defaults: Why The Pre-Selected Choice Wins More Often Than Not: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 9: Loss Aversion: Why Getting New Stuff Is Not The Same: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 51: Time Discounting: The I’ll Start Monday Effect – My Favorite Concept!: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 16: Framing: How You Say Things Matter More Than What You’re Saying: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 18: Priming: Why You Should Never Have A Difficult Conversation With Someone Holding An Iced Coffee: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 11: Anchoring & Adjustment: The 1 Word That Increased Sales 38%: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 19: Herding: Come On And Listen…Everyone Else Is Doing It: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode Episode 87: Social Proof: How to Use Herding to Boost Engagement and Sales Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia