"To feel that it is bliss to be alive, health alone is needed.  And by health I mean not the absence of physical ailment or disease, but a high condition of vitality. This the country gave me; this the town denied me.  The only question was then, at what rate did I value the boon?" In this episode of Made You Think, Nat and Neil are joined by Andrew Lynch to discuss their key takeaways from The Quest of the Simple Life by William Dawson. The setting takes place in London in the early 1900s, and Dawson takes us through his reflections and insights as he moves from the city to the countryside to fulfill his desire of living a more simple life. We cover a wide range of topics including: • Finding value in the work you do • How organic social interactions differ from planned social events and meetups • Cost of living in a small village vs. big city • The idea of having a 3rd place where people spend time in outside their home and workspace • Why money shouldn't be the main metric you base the success of your life on And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Andrew on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode. Links from the Episode: Mentioned in the show: Scribe Media (0:56) Andrew’s "How I Got Fired" article (1:10) FIRE Movement (3:04) King Ranch (7:10) Right Move (9:01) Fountain (1:19:30) Breez (1:19:31) Books Mentioned: The Quest of the Simple Life Letters From a Stoic (2:38) (Nat’s Book Notes) (Book Episode) Alchemy (43:38) Shop Class as Soulcraft (1:05:26) People Mentioned: Tucker Max (0:57) Zach Obront (0:58) Morgan Housel (1:36) Seneca (2:42) Tim O’Reilly (34:03) Rory Sutherland (43:34) Chamath Palihapitiya (47:14) Nassim Taleb (1:03:49) Show Topics: 0:10 Our guest today is Andrew Lynch, long-time Made You Think listener from the UK who works as a finance director and writes about health, wealth, and wisdom on his website. 1:25 The book we're discussing today is the Quest of the Simple Life. This memoir by William Dawson is timeless, in that many of the thoughts and ideas expressed by Dawson in the early 1900s still ring true for many people in today's age.  5:12 It's difficult to find the perfect spot to settle in when you want to have everything: a nice piece of land, river views, proximity to what's important yet space away from everything. The homes that check all of your boxes are hard to come across, and often times not available. 9:01 Andrew shares some insights on the countryside areas that the author is moving to in the UK.  10:15 One problem with moving to the countryside that wasn’t mentioned in the book is the social aspect. Moving to the country often means less social interaction and more distance between yourself and your circle of people.  13:41 "There is none of that pleasant 'dropping-in' for an evening which is possible in country towns of not immoderate radius. Time-tables have to be consulted, engagement-books scanned, serious preparations made, with the poor result, perhaps, of two hours' hurried intercourse." The author makes the case that it’s actually easier to socialize in a smaller village than a big town because there’s less distance to travel, it's more condensed, and you're more likely to run into friends out and about in a smaller town. 16:56 A "third place" is somewhere (bar, coffee shop, social area) where you can run into friends without having to schedule anything. Unplanned social interactions. Nat talks about creating small town energy in a big town. 20:21 The social schedules that occur in college. It's ideal to have all of your friends living within the same few mile radius as you, and you're sure to have many natural encounters simply by visiting the popular places on campus. Andrew talks about social clubs and activities, such as Crossfit. Having connections within those places encourages you to go there more often knowing you will see people you're familiar with week-to-week. 22:43 Can you create a "third place" organically, and does it defeat the purpose if its not organic?  26:27 Nat, Neil, and Andrew discuss the tie between money and social life, as well as money and family size. When you have more money, having more children is no issue. You can afford more help and childcare, and you can keep up with your lifestyle even when your family size grows. Family size can also be bigger in lower income families because they tend to not frequently go out to eat, travel, and make big purchases. They don't have the luxurious life to keep affording. Where does this leave people in the middle? 30:11 Some people choose to stay closer to family and friends their whole life. Their location now has that built in social network. There's also those who move often, and are tasked with finding new friendships and connections wherever they move to. 32:13 "The thing that is least perceived about wealth is that all pleasure in money ends at the point where economy becomes unnecessary. The man who can buy anything he covets, without any consultation with his banker, values nothing that he buys." It’s easy to try and measure the success of your life on the money you have, and while it unlocks different opportunities, it’s not the be-all and end-all of our existence. Andrew makes a connection to a quote from Tim O'Reilly: "Money is like gasoline during a road trip. You don't want to run out of gas on your trip, but you're not doing a tour of gas stations." Money gives you more options and opens more doors, but the point of a road trip isn’t to accumulate as much gas as you can. 34:45 Commuting, work styles, and how things have shift post-Covid. Since this shift, it's tough for many businesses to justify employees having to come in at 8 hours per day. Blending of the office and the 3rd place, and how you can turn an office into a social, yet productive environment 38:58 What is the underlying dissatisfaction that gets solved by moving to the country? Nat points out that there aren’t better food options, there won’t be more people to meet, so what is it solving? Is it the outdoor life and nature of being in the country? "Those rare excursions which I took into the genuine country left me aching for days afterwards with an exquisite pain." Its arguably instinctive to want to be outdoors in nature. 41:17 "If I could choose for myself I would even now choose the life of pleasant alternation between town and country, because I am persuaded that the true piquancy and zest of all pleasures lies in contrast." The setup of having both, a little bit in the city and a little bit in the country. When someone finds they can’t have both at once, they take middle ground which is the suburbs. 46:00 “Men may chafe for years at the conditions of their lot without in any way attempting to amend them." The lesson here is to either make the most of your current situation, or take action on what you want to change. It may feel good to complain because you’re letting your frustration out, but in the end, no progress was made. It’s easy to whine but harder to do something about it. 51:17 We have to be honest with ourselves on the things we say we’ll do. Some things sound great on paper, and we hope to accomplish them, but it doesn’t make us any better or worse of a person whether we accomplish it or not. 55:02 It’s important to remember that everyone has their own preferences. People share different preferences on whether they like to complete projects with others or work alone. We can’t compare ourselves to someone who has a totally different style than us.  56:58 Cost of living in the city vs. countryside. Money seems to "fall off" of you in the city as things are more pricy. Little purchases add up because in a city, there’s so many more little places that you can spend your money throughout the day. 59:16 Neil and Andrew share some outdated sayings and beliefs in the book. 1:02:52 Physical labor around the house is just as good as exercising, and you also get something else out of it. When you renovate your house and take on some of the physical projects yourself, you get to see the outcome of the work you put in. It’s tangible.  1:08:12 Working with big companies vs. small companies. In most instances, it’s easier to see the difference you’re making in a small company. The company culture also differs based on company size. It's all about finding something to do that your heart is also in to. 1:12:21 Andrew and Neil share their biggest takeaways from the book. A few lessons they learned: So much of what we choose is not for ourselves, but of what others will think about it. Make decisions based on what's best for you. Using money as a metric isn’t the best way to think. Don't force yourself to do work that you don’t like. Spend more time outdoors. Be more deliberate. 1:19:00 Thanks for listening! Make sure to grab a copy of The Quest of the Simple Life as well as The Dictator's Handbook if you’d like to read up before our next episode. If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! You can say hi to us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason and share your thoughts on this episode. You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain or Breez) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We'll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads. Thanks for listening. See you next time!

Made You Think is back! And if you heard our previous update episode from a few weeks ago, consider this the Update 2.0 on what's to come for the podcast. We are excited to bring you new episodes this year, so stay tuned and follow our show on Spotify so you don't miss an episode. In this episode of Made You Think, Nat and Neil cover a wide range of topics including: The rapidly growing world of Crypto and Web3 Podcasting 2.0 - How you can further support your favorite podcast hosts  The Anti-work movement How the pandemic has exposed the fragility in supply chains Corruption in Congress  And much more. Make sure to follow Neil and Nat on Twitter and give some suggestions on what books you'd like us to cover. We hope you enjoy this episode! Links from the Episode: Mentioned in the show: Solidity (5:05) Solana (7:36) Avalanche (7:39) Polygon (7:40) MYT #7: A Crash Course in Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Cryptocurrency (7:58) MYT #11: This Podcast Will Save Your Life: Emergency by Neil Strauss (10:26) Wild Planet (11:54) Podcasting 2.0 (12:16) Anchor (12:40) Adam Curry - The Joe Rogan Experience (13:06) Lightning Network (13:21) New CEO of Twitter, Parag Agrawal (15:31) Neil’s Twitter thread of quotes (19:03) Anti-work Reddit (19:22) Over 40% of New Stores Opening in the U.S. Are Dollar Stores (28:05) The Next: Justin Mares (30:28) EatWild (30:30) MYT #48: UBI Q&A. A Conversation with Presidential Candidate Andrew Yang (42:01) Fountain (44:06) Books Mentioned: Emergency by Neil Strauss (10:22) [Podcast Episode] Gulag Archipelago (22:11) [Neil's Twitter Thread] The Fourth Turning (35:54) Dictator’s Handbook (43:02) The Quest of the Simple Life (43:07) People Mentioned: Nader Dabit (4:25) Adam Curry (13:04) Parag Agrawal (15:16) Jack Dorsey (15:25) Nancy Pelosi (39:14) Andrew Yang (42:01) Show Topics 0:00 We’re back again! Neil and Nat catch up and fill you in on what’s to come for the Made You Think podcast. 1:02 Security in cryptocurrency; Nat shares an error he made early on in crypto that ended up costing him. While there is lack of good educational material in this space, one way you can learn crypto programming is reading open source smart contracts. 5:48 The speed at which Web3 is moving makes it near impossible to keep up with every new thing going on. The key is to pick a niche or chain to stay on top of. Since the bull run of 2017, so many uses of cryptocurrency have been uncovered. 10:18 Neil and Nat talk about their favorite survival foods and reflected briefly on their Emergency episode.   12:11 What is Podcasting 2.0? You can now tip podcast creators directly using the lightning network. Think Patreon, but without any centralized authority.  19:22 There’s now a growing group of people who are anti-work. Neil and Nat discuss wealth disparity in the U.S. and how inflation has played a role. 24:55 Being a small business owner has its many challenges. Between the failure to prosecute crimes against small businesses and the hardships faced by store owners over the past two years of Covid, it’s the smaller businesses who are having to close their doors permanently.  29:00 Fragility of supply chains. This affects prices of products at grocery stores as well as the consumers who choose which products to buy, especially those with lower incomes. 33:09 Given the many systemic issues mentioned in the episode, Nat and Neil chat about the competency of our leaders to solve the problems the country is facing. A significant change is needed, but it’s currently unknown what’s it going to take and how long. 38:15 Neil briefly discusses some ideas found in the Dictator’s Handbook. Differences in authoritarian vs. democratically-elected systems. Corruption, lying, and our current system. Is the system too far gone? (Flashback to our Andrew Yang episode!) 42:47 Thank you for listening! Hear what’s next for the Made You Think podcast and make sure to grab your copies of The Quest of the Simple Life and The Dictator's Handbook if you’d like to read up before our next episode. If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! You can say hi to us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason and share your thoughts on this episode. You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We'll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads. Thanks for listening. Until next time!

Hey everyone, this is an update episode.  Made You Think is coming back this month! The biggest change is that Nat will not be a co-host on most episodes moving forward, due to other time commitments. Instead, we'll have other co-hosts on each episode, some of whom you've heard on the show before.  For those that want to follow along, the next two books we're covering are: The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics by Alastair Smith and Bruce Bueno de Mesquita The Quest of the Simple Life by William James Dawson You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We'll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads.   Learn more about Podcasting 2.0 here: https://medium.com/@everywheretrip/an-introduction-to-podcasting-2-0-3c4f61ea17f4 If you need help setting up your wallet, DM Neil on Twitter at @therealneils and he'll help you get started.  As usual, if you have any book or content recommendations, we'd love to hear them. Excited to be back! 

“Even today, what to study and how to study it are more important than where to study it and for how long. The best teachers are on the Internet. The best books are on the Internet. The best peers are on the Internet. The tools for learning are abundant. It’s the desire to learn that’s scarce.” - Naval Ravikant In this episode of Made You Think, Nat and Neil are joined by Eric Jorgenson. Eric is a writer, product strategist, and author of The Almanack of Naval Ravikant.  We cover a wide range of topics including: How Eric came to the idea of writing The Almanack What Eric's biggest lessons and takeaways were from authoring this book What topics didn't end up making the final cut  The future of education and online courses The idea of leverage and how it can be used And much more. If you haven't already, make sure to check out our last episode where we talked in great depth about The Almanack and discussed our key takeaways from the book. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a tweet to Nat, Neil, and Eric! Links from the Episode Mentioned in the show Previous MYT Episode (0:35) Naval on Shane Parrish's podcast (2:27) Readwise (10:30) Bonus Section: Education (27:07)  Building a Second Brain (32:22) Lambda School (32:55) How To Think Like Elon Musk - Made You Think Episode (44:37) SpaceX (45:40) Books Mentioned The Almanack of Naval Ravikant Debt: The First 5000 Years (11:23) Infinite Jest (13:58) (Nat's Book Notes) (Book Episode pt. 1) (Book Episode pt. 2) Vagabonding (52:02) (Nat's Book Notes) People Mentioned Naval Ravikant Trevor McKendrick (7:38) Elon Musk (41:41) Tim Ferriss (50:40) Show Notes: 0:52 - Eric Jorgenson, author of The Almanack of Naval Ravikant, shares how his idea of writing the book came to be. 5:35 - From the start, Eric knew he didn’t want it to just be a summary book. How he was able to hone in on the writing style of the book to capture the interest of his readers all the way through. 9:20 - Highlight density. Using highlight data to estimate book quality. Skipping chapters and not finishing books. 14:14 - Eric’s key takeaways from the book and what knowledge he has carried away from writing it. The importance of equity, accountability and leverage. We have the tendency to want to do everything ourselves rather than to create systems and put the pieces together. 19:04 - How Twitter and other social media usage affects mindset and energy. Discussions of Naval’s Twitter usage and utilizing it as an outlet for his unfiltered thoughts and ideas. 21:56 - What were the communication patterns between Naval and Eric during the creation of The Almanack? 24:05 - The variety and depth of Naval’s ideas. Eric allowed himself to take time to dive in and explore these topics to let them sink in before writing about it. 26:02 - One topic that didn’t make the final cut was Education. Naval has talked about the flaws within the education system as well as the future of education. If you’re curious to read more, you can find that here! The rise of online courses and the potential for digital course creators. When you’re learning locally, you have the best person in the area teaching you. When you’re learning on a platform that’s global, you’ll be learning from the best of the best, plus increased accessibility. 32:44 - The future of online learning and career preparation is promising. How will the online course market grow within the upcoming decades? Tiktok education in the format of 60 second videos shot from your phone. 37:45 - English as the language of business and the history of the qwerty keyboard. 40:50 - If Eric could write about another influencer of thought, who would it be? 42:10 - Elon Musk, PayPal, Tesla, SpaceX. Writing a biography about Elon Musk: he has a hefty list of accomplishments but his principles and concepts are timeless. 48:24 - What do we know about Naval’s relationships and family? His ideas and concepts are what he is widely known for, so not much is known about his personal life. 53:53 - Eric’s next steps includes creating a course to help build a framework on this idea of leverage that Naval often speaks about. 57:01 - Leverage can be utilized at a personal, managerial, and company level in many different ways. Productivity of a company is no longer about how many employees there are. People leverage. 1:01:59 - Pick up a copy of The Almanack of Naval Ravikant on Amazon, follow Eric on Twitter, visit navalmanack.com, and follow along with upcoming projects on Eric's website! If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! Find us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason. The best way to stay up to date on future episodes and show updates is to join our email list at Made You Think Podcast. Check out ways you can support the show here!

“My old definition was "freedom to." Freedom to do anything I want. Freedom to do whatever I feel like, whenever I feel like. Now, the freedom I'm looking for is internal freedom. It's “freedom from." Freedom from reaction. Freedom from feeling angry. Freedom from being sad. Freedom from being forced to do things. I'm looking for "freedom from," internally and externally, whereas before I was looking for “freedom to." On this episode of Made You Think, Nat and Neil discuss The Almanack of Naval Ravikant by Eric Jorgenson, Jack Butcher, and Tim Ferriss. This book contains insights to wealth and happiness according to investor and entrepreneur, Naval Ravikant. From Naval's podcasts and essays to tweets and interviews, his collection of wisdom is put into one piece of writing, sparking great conversations and discussions from Nat and Neil (and tangents of course!) We cover a wide range of topics including: The relationship between wealth and happiness How Naval frames the idea of mental peace Why tools and technology are essential in leveraging the online space Differences between being a contrarian and a conformist Angel investors vs. early investors And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat and Neil on Twitter to hear which book will be the topic of the next episode! Links from the episode Mentioned in the show Angel List (1:50) Product Hunt (5:27) Social Capital in Silicon Valley (8:08) Honeycomb Credit (10:14) Aurochs Brewing (10:39) Facebook Bitcoin Ads and Scams (12:44) Happiness and Income(17:30) Growth Machine (31:56) The Systems Mindset (34:57) Effortless Output in Roam (38:16) Forte Labs (39:36) Open Innovation Leads (42:41) Books mentioned The Tower (20:00) (Book Episode) In Praise of Idleness (1:11:10) (Nat’s Book Notes) (Book Episode) Finite and Infinite Games (1:15:08) (Nat's Book Notes) (Book Episode) Denial of Death (1:15:23) (Nat's Book Notes) (Book Episode) Way of Zen (1:15:29) (Nat's Book Notes) (Neil's Book Notes) (Book Episode) Letter From a Stoic (1:15:35)(Nat's Book Notes) (Book Episode) Psychology of Human Misjudgments (1:15:47) (Book Episode) People mentioned James Altucher (12:44) Dave Chapelle (21:40) Show notes 0:34 - Today, Nat and Neil are discussing The Almanack of Naval Ravikant by Eric Jorgenson, Jack Butcher, and Tim Ferriss. This book is based off of interviews, podcasts, tweets, and other content from Naval Ravikant, exploring his worldview and how he perceives different ideas such as wealth and happiness. Additionally, Naval is a well-known investor and former CEO of AngelList.  5:51 - Angel investors vs. early investors. The reasons why someone may choose to invest early in a growing company, with one of those reasons often being to increase your social capital. 10:15 - Small business crowdfunding. How a brewing company in Pennsylvania leverages their customers and local community. 12:20 - Naval was also into cryptocurrency, and co-founded a cryptocurrency hedge fund with his brother, Kamal. He's what they call a Twitter philosopher, and is able to provide timeless wisdom into small packages that resonates with a lot of people. 16:50 - “Let's get you rich first. I'm very practical about it because, you know, Buddha was a prince. He started off really rich, then he got to go off in the woods.” Is there a link between increased wealth and happiness? Wealth first, so you can have the freedom to say ‘no’ to things that don’t make you happy, and from there you can build a happier life. 22:01 - “To me, the real winners are the ones who step out of the game entirely, who don't even play the game, who rise above it. Those are the people who have such internal mental and self-control and self-awareness, they need nothing from anybody else.” Money and fame. It’s hard to say no to money, and at what point do you say no to something? Examples of public figures who have stepped out of the public eye. 24:59 - Earlier in Naval’s career, he was quick to temper, and it’s been a big goal to get that under control. It can be hard to balance business and mental peace, especially when you’re at the level that Naval is. 28:18 - The idea of “Freedom from” comes back into play here. Having more control of people who you work with and work for, and wealth gives you the power to say ‘no’ to things that make you unhappy or drain your energy. Clearing up mental space. 33:42 - It’s important to use automation and outsource repetitive work to save your resource of time, which ultimately allows you to scale your income. “Technology democratizes consumption but consolidates production.” 38:07 - Leveraging online tools. The nearly unlimited scalability of an e-product or online course. There’s real value in having an audience of supporters and an email list. 44:05 - “Learn to sell, learn to build. If you can do both, you will be unstoppable.” The two go hand-in-hand when you can learn to build things that can sell itself effortlessly while you sleep. The broader definition of ‘sell’ includes marketing, too. “The year I generated the most wealth for myself was actually the year I worked the least hard and cared the least about the future. I was mostly doing things for the sheer fun of it. I was basically telling people, "I'm retired, I'm not working." Then, I had the time for whatever was my highest valued project in front of me. By doing things for their own sake, I did them at their best.”  This ties back in with the idea stepping out of the game, it’s more difficult to do if you’re trading your time for money. 50:55 - Code and media are both extremely scaleable. A one-time creation of a video, podcast, course, etc. can be accessible and profitable for years to come with little to no additional effort on the part of the creator. 52:53 - Product revenue vs. ad revenue. 53:39 - Made You Think custom themed Yeti or merch? Tweet us @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason! 54:55 - The price of a paycheck and the reward that freedom brings. What’s more valuable to you: freedom, money, or can you ultimately have both? 58:29 - “One day, I realized with all these people I was jealous of, I couldn't just choose little aspects of their life. I couldn't say I want his body, I want her money, I want his personality. You have to be that person. Do you want to actually be that person with all of their reactions, their desires, their family, their happiness level, their outlook on life, their self-image? If you're not willing to do a wholesale, 24/7, 100 percent swap with who that person is, then there is no point in being jealous.” You don’t see the ‘behind the scenes’ of someone else’s life, especially when you only know what they put on social media. Jealousy and comparison. Think about what you would lose if you were to actually switch lives with somebody else. 1:00:35 - The difference between being a contrarian and a conformist. Beliefs you took in a ‘package’ should be reevaluated individually. Thinking for yourself rather than minimizing yourself to fit into a certain box or group of beliefs. 1:06:18 - Signaling. Deliberate signaling to filter who ends up around you, but signaling can also be inadvertent. Political signals. 1:10:50 - Rapid fire quotations from the book… and go! 1:17:24 - One last paradox - how is Naval so big on peace of mind yet so active on Twitter? 1:19:22 - Make sure to grab a copy of The Almanack of Naval Ravikant and tell Eric Jorgenson and Naval Ravikant how much you enjoyed this episode. Follow us on Twitter to find out what book we are reading next! And tweet us about some potential MYT swag ideas... If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! Find us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason. The best way to stay up to date on future episodes and show updates is to join our email list at Made You Think Podcast. Check out ways you can support the show here!

From a fundamental biophysical perspective, both prehistoric human evolution and the course of history can be seen as the quest for controlling greater stores and flows of more concentrated and more versatile forms of energy and converting them, in more affordable ways at lower costs and with higher efficiencies, into heat, light, and motion. Energy and Civilization by Vaclav Smil provides an explanation of energy in its relation to society. Smil dives deeply into the history of energy. From scavenging and foraging to the modern uses of water, wind, and solar power, energy drives every existing thing in today's world. Interestingly enough, it's difficult to place what exactly energy is, as it's not as tangible as other forms of measurement. Nat and Neil discuss their key takeaways from this book in today's episode of Made You Think. We cover a wide range of topics including: Survival features that are unique to humans  Energy density of different foods, and how diet has adapted over time  Pre-historic methods of gathering food efficiently Renewable and non-renewable resources  Technological advancements in transportation  And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat and Neil on Twitter to hear which book will be the topic of the next episode! Links from the episode Mentioned in the show Nat's Youtube channel (1:27) Bitcoin episode with Taylor Pearson (8:24)  Only humans sweat(18:32)  Flood Myth (28:59) Protein Poisoning (36:40)  Crime hypothesis (1:07:25)  Traffic and infant health(1:08:47)  China air quality in COVID (1:17:17)  Hiroshima (1:20:07)  List of Nuclear Disasters  (1:20:49)  Medical errors (1:27:35)  Boom unveils its first prototype (1:38:56)  Books mentioned The Prize by Daniel Yergin (6:15) The Fish That Ate the Whale by Rich Cohen (7:03) (Nat's Book Notes) Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari (9:44) (Nat's Book Notes) (Book Episode pt. 1) (Book Episode pt. 2) Scale by Geoffrey West (9:45) (Nat's Book Notes) (Book Episode) The Story of Philosophy by Will Durant (12:15) (Nat's Book Notes) The Lessons of History by Will and Ariel Durant (14:06) (Nat's Book Notes) Smoke Signals by Martin A. Lee (1:29:51) (Nat's Book Notes) (Book Episode) The Riddle of the Gun by Sam Harris (1:33:43) (Book Episode) People mentioned Bill Gates (8:07) Richard Feynman (17:05) Show notes 0:16 - Thank you for the support of the Made You Think podcast! Nat and Neil dive into discussion on the book Energy and Civilization by Vaclav Smil this week. If you’re curious to pick up a copy, you can do so here. 8:33 - Energy and Civilization discusses how energy has shaped the progress of humanity and the history of civilization as humans harness more and more energy. Energy drives everything in today’s world from basic human activity to the technological advances throughout time. 13:06 - Is growth limited by the energy that could be harnessed? The author uses energy as his lens to viewing the growth and history. 14:58 - Energy and Pre-history. By nature, humans are made to conserve energy. It’s shown in many everyday tasks such as walking on two legs rather than four and regulating our body heat by sweating. Energy is essential to everything, however it’s hard to place what exactly energy is, as it’s not as tangible as other forms of measurement. 18:13 - Ability to exercise and sweat. Humans are the only species that sweats. While many animals lose water to cool down in the form of panting, humans can do so at a much higher rate through sweating. The idea of a panting threshold in running, and how training can increase how long you can run without panting. Different factors in exercise such as physique, body weight, and training style. 24:09 - Temporary dehydration. Humans can function being dehydrated better than animals, and that ultimately benefits our species from a survival standpoint. Humans’ ability to live in different climates as compared to animals who may only live in a certain temperature range. 30:14 - Energy density of different foods. How diets differ between species based on their need for nutrients and what is essential for their survival. Additionally, energy expended while hunting and gathering also needed to be considered. Energy cost vs. energy returned. Is what you are consuming enough to cover the work you did to hunt or gather the food? 40:47 - Farming, foraging and pasturing. Early farming typically required higher energy input when compared to foraging, but it also could provide a more reliable food supply and support a higher population. Pasturing can also be argued as highly reliable and fairly energy-efficient. 44:06 - Traditional farming. Domesticated animals such as dogs and horses, and the way they have co-adapted with humans. Their partnership with humans in farming and companionship. Evolving to modern foods and diet. 50:05 - Prime movers and fuels. This section of the book talked about a variety of energy types such as water power, wind power, gunpowder, biomass fuels, wood, charcoal, etc. Being efficient with the resources that are available. Are there tools or pieces of knowledge that have been forgotten or lost from the previous society? 57:49 - Use of charcoal and it’s importance in pre-historic times. Various amounts of energy used in different methods of cooking. 1:01:32 - Renewable and nonrenewable resources. The oil industry. Oil sands in Canada reserve around 165 billion barrels. 1:07:25 - Nat shares about the hypothesized link between elevated lead levels in children and crime rate in the U.S. in the late 1900s. Neil discusses a study linking E-ZPass with reduced prematurity and low birth weight in infants whose birth givers lived within 2km of a toll plaza. Possible implications of air pollution. Use of alternate means of energy such as solar power. 1:12:12 - The reality vs. the narrative in oil supply and energy. Fluctuation of prices. The journey from fossil fuels to renewable energy; viewing it as a transition rather than a light switch. The author talks about the advantages of using fossil fuels in comparison to using the natural elements for an energy source. 1:16:54 - COVID’s effect on air quality and cleanliness. 1:17:38 - "No terrestrial civilization can be anything else but a solar society dependent on the sun’s radiation.” Not only are living beings dependent on the sun’s radiation but other forces such as wind and water flow as well. The sun has always been a source of energy. 1:18:26 - Nuclear energy. The first nuclear reactors were for submarines. From there, they were used on land to generate power. When we think about nuclear energy, people are quick to picture the dangers of it and the atomic bombings. 1:21:35 - Metrics surrounding death and death reporting. Excess death rate in the COVID era has gone down in many cities due to people staying in, overall less driving, decreased going out and drinking. Medical mistakes; when is it necessary for one to go to the hospital? 1:28:52 - Supercharged political issues: nearly every topic out there involves a split in views or invokes a reaction from many people. Marijuana, taxes, gun control, COVID. Legality across different states. 1:37:06 - Fossil fuel civilization. The speed of innovation, especially in the 20th century. Advancements in forms of transportation such as jets and airplanes, and the largely increased energy usage in comparison to the previous century. Software innovation has seen quicker growth than hardware innovation in the past few decades. So much of it has been in our phones or in the digital space. 1:44:32 - When we think about the future in energy and development, which companies and innovations will be leading? Nat and Neil share their final thoughts of the book. 1:47:10 - Thanks for listening! If you’d like to support the Made You Think podcast, you can leave a review, share with a friend, and stay tuned for future episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! Find us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason. The best way to stay up to date on future episodes and show updates is to join our email list at Made You Think Podcast. Check out ways you can support the show here!  

Scale by Geoffrey West focuses on the the principles and patterns connecting the ways that cities, organisms, and companies grow. West, a theoretical physicist, studied the way in which sizes of mammals related to their life expectancy, and further connected these laws to the growth and longevity of cities and the world of business. Nat and Neil unpack these laws and principles on today's podcast episode. We cover a wide range of topics including: The idea of '1 billion heartbeats' per lifetime How COVID has impacted growth of cities and business Human life expectancy Paradigm shifting innovations Growth in its relation to socioeconomic factors And much more. Please enjoy, and be sure to grab a copy of Scale by Geoffrey West! Links from the Episode Mentioned in the show Readwise (0:02) Antilibrary (Umberto Eco) (4:41) Evernote (1:07) Notion (1:07) Roam (1:07) Airr (8:58) Of Mice and Elephants: A Matter of Scale (21:08) Steve Jobs introduces WiFi…with a hula hoop! (48:43) Books mentioned Seeing Like A State by James C. Scott (7:36) (Nat’s Book Notes) Antifragile (7:40) (Nat’s Book Notes) (Book Episode) The Blueprint for Armageddon by Dan Carlin (8:48) The Startup Gold Mine (Neil Soni) (13:05) Scale by Geoffrey West (14:08) (Nat’s Book Notes) Darwin’s Dangerous Idea by Daniel Dennett (27:08) (Nat’s Book Notes) (Book Episode) The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch (30:05) (Nat’s Book Notes) (Book Episode) The Three-Body Problem by Liu Cixin (35:31) (Nat’s Book Notes) Happy Accidents by Morton Meyers (59:02) (Nat’s Book Notes) (Book Episode) In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell (1:17:44) (Nat’s Book Notes) (Book Episode)   People Mentioned Umberto Eco (4:41) Dan Carlin (8:48) Geoffrey West (14:08) David Deutsch (27:03) Daniel Dennett (27:08) Arthur Clarke (50:14) Nassim Taleb (1:29:30) Show notes: 0:27 - Using Readwise to gather your notes to export to other sites. Scanning book pages of physical books. Nat and Neil discuss their preferences surrounding digital vs. physical books. 6:32 - Re-reading books. The difficulty of finding a ‘mind-blowing’ book to read. If you have any book recommendations for a future podcast episode, send them our way! 8:45 - Airr - Highlight audio as you listen to podcasts. How to make podcast listening more educational for yourself. Purposes of podcasts can be both educational and entertaining. The massive market for “How To” content. 14:08 - This week’s episode is on the book Scale: The Universal Laws of Life, Growth, and Death in Organisms, Cities, and Companies by Geoffrey West. The book talks about how things grow, continue to grow, decline in growth, or decay. The author primarily focuses on growth of organisms, cities, and companies, as the book title suggests, but also within these large structures are smaller substructures that grow and change, too. Some of the same laws of growth apply in seemingly different systems. 20:31 - There are many things that scale along with size that are not growing at a 1:1 ratio. The number of heartbeats in a specific mammal’s life is roughly the same across species. Neil describes an article in which each species receives an average of 1 billion heartbeats per lifetime. The heart rate varies on size of the being. Different lifespans between species. From an objective standpoint, an elephant tends to live longer than a mouse, but subjectively, do life spans feel the same length to each individual creature? 23:45 - How humans fit into this research of lifespan vs. body size. Differences in lifespan pre-technology vs. today’s era. Life extension - whether or not the maximum life expectancy can be extended. The age of 125 seems to be the maximum at this point according to West. 28:02 - Entropy and natural decay in the cell’s ability to replicate. You can bring things from disordered back to ordered, and with that creates externalities. Example: the waste created when we use the bathroom. Are there ways to minimize that?   30:46 - “The problem is that the theory also predicts that unbounded growth cannot be sustained without having either infinite resources or inducing major paradigm shifts that reset the clock before potential collapse occurs. We have sustained open-ended growth and avoided collapse by invoking continuous cycles of paradigm shifting innovations, such as those associated on the big scale of human history with discoveries of iron, steam, coal, computation, and most recently digital information technology.” (pg. 31) This quote is talking about finite-time singularity. This leads into a discussion in paradigm shifting innovations in today’s world. Resetting the paradigm clock. 35:45 - The Three Body Problem by Liu Cixin - One thing brought up in this book is that humans, technologically, are an exponentially developing species. Geoffrey West brings up the possibility of hitting a wall and running out of paradigm shifts. To continue growing at an exponential rate, do we have to keep discovering this innovations at an exponential rate? 37:12 - Growth and the way society is structured. A shrink in population would pose the issue of how a generation smaller in numbers would have to be paying Social Security for the generation above them. Continued growth is ‘built-in’ to the system, and if it doesn’t grow at the anticipated rate, a collapse is possible. 41:09 - Across different cultures and countries comes different values: community, family, the state, society, tradition, religion. In America, it’s perceived that one’s self is the most valued, also referred to as individualism. 45:06 - The release of new inventions and technology in the ‘80s and ‘90s: computers, digital cameras, cell phones, and laptops. From big, clunky, and colorless inventions to high-speed and attractive new pieces of technology. It becomes interesting to think about how unique and magical these inventions feel at the time they come out, and also how quickly the next piece of upgraded technology follows. 52:11 - There are products that improve and add more features at a higher rate, and products where that growth is not as rapid. As noted in the book, these paradigm shifts happen, there’s a massive spike, and new innovations slowly come from that spike. The spike jump starts the innovations, and the innovations slow until there’s another spike. 54:26 - Discussions over whether COVID will bring a new spike. There have been many changes in our society with the way we work, make money, education, etc. that it poses the question on what will follow. Making use of underutilized resources. It comes down to what is more efficient. 56:34 - Intellectual capital has been opened up in a new way since COVID, as we are no longer expected to be in the same place. The downfall of Silicon Valley between COVID, remote work, and being on literal fire. With people working remotely now more than ever, it seems to point us in the direction of growth in the digital space and information innovation. 1:00:07 - How these changes in the way we live and work will affect the scaling laws discussed in the book. Urbanization in the U.S. People moving out of big cities. Changes in the way companies and their employees are now working. 1:06:05 - Companies and their current policies: remote, in-person, or a mixture of both. Depends on the needs and what industry they are in. Coworking spaces and working remotely around people, without actually working with them. 1:10:10 - Human’s ability to regulate their internal body temperature. West brings up global warming, and how an increase of 2 degrees Celsius could increase the pace of all biological lives by 20-30% - living and dying faster. Inversely, if you could lower your own body temperature by 1 degree Celsius, you could enhance your life span by 10-15%. 1:14:32 - Growth of cities and its relation with socioeconomic factors: wages, innovation, crime, pollution, etc. “The multiplicative compounding of socioeconomic interactivity engendered by urbanization has inevitably led to the contraction of time. Rather than being bored to death, our actual challenge is to avoid anxiety attacks, psychotic breakdowns, heart attacks, and strokes resulting from being accelerated to death.” (pg. 332) 1:20:03 - Population size in cities and productively interacting with others - discussions on whether innovations can come from a city that stays stagnant or even decreases in size. Commute times and the ‘one hour’ rule. 1:25:03 - Shared ideologies from across the world without a way to bring those people together. Sense of community from these shared interests and ideas, even if there is no physical meeting place for all to share. 1:29:58 - The next book we will be reading and discussing is Energy and Civilization by Vaclav Smil. Feel free to pick up a copy of the book to read along with us before the next podcast episode! If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! Find us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason. The best way to stay up to date on future episodes and show updates is to join our email list at Made You Think Podcast. Check out ways you can support the show here!

Made You Think is BACK! In this episode of the podcast, Nat and Neil catch up after a year and a half hiatus. Their plan was to catch up on what’s been going on, but that didn’t happen as they ended up talking a lot about COVID, the economy, politics, some books they’d read, and a whole lot more. We cover a wide range of topics, including: The rise of Tiktok and Twitter Media coverage and confirmation bias Cargo cult science and research in the Health field How COVID has affected the workplace Our take on schools reopening And much more. Please enjoy, and be sure to stay tuned for future episodes! Links from the Episode Mentioned in the show Oatly Article (18:15) Subreddit: Not the Onion (46:06) Cargo cult science (59:03) ALS (1:08:09) Right To Try Law (1:10:34) Uyghur Muslims (1:20:46) Operation Mockingbird (1:23:00) Wealth Disparity (1:32:11) Airtable (1:43:26) Zapier (1:43:27) Roam Research (1:43:50) (Nat's Blog Post) Notion (1:44:00)   Books mentioned Infinite Jest (4:08) (Book episode) Discipline & Punish (5:26) (Book episode) The Denial of Death (5:41) (Book episode) Hiroshima Diary (5:45) (Book episode) Atlas Shrugged (11:02) (Book episode) You Are A Badass (12:42) Outliers (12:44) How to Lie with Statistics (50:22) Scale (1:44:58)   People mentioned Kanye West (5:26) (Album Notes) Dan Carlin (9:58) Jen Sincero (12:42) Mark Manson (13:32) Jeff Nobbs (19:03) David Perell (22:13) Steve Jobs (26:38) Sam Harris (40:20) The Riddle of the Gun (Book episode) Donald Trump (51:29) Nancy Pelosi (51:30) Richard Feynman (59:06)   Show Topics 3:05 - Nat and Neil catch up and reflect on past podcast episodes. How like-minded people have connected over Made You Think (MYT) podcast with nearly 250,000 downloads. The future of MYT and what listeners can expect from the podcast.   9:28 - Podcasts as well as other forms of media have evolved in what it takes to be successful and keep their audience interested. Between making things ‘pop’ and sticking to their roots, authors and artists alike need to balance making money and doing the work they want to do.   14:12 - The rise of popularity in Twitter and Tiktok in both regular users and those looking to earn. Discussions of other social media platforms and how they have evolved in popularity.   19:33 - The price of being an influencer: receiving more criticism over the Internet, nearly everything you say can be taken out of context, internal battles with your mindset. Having a large following can come with downsides, but there are ways you can respond that are helpful and productive.   27:26 - Recognizing what people are trying to get from critical comments or responses. How to respond, diffuse, or block out the incoming negativity on social media. It’s easy to think they’re coming at you from a place of dislike, when it could be for attention, for conversation, or for clarification on a topic.   32:24 - What’s real vs. what’s not? Social media can easily distort our senses about what is going on. Covid, riots, media coverage and confirmation bias. We are quick to discard information that doesn’t match the beliefs of ideas that we support. It’s important to recognize the bias in order to have the discussion.   40:02 -  Stereotypes. Media can paint the picture that a certain idea is contained in an idea set, and if you believe one idea from the set, you believe all within the set. Overlap between ideas are assumed   43:05 - Mask usage during the Covid times. The term ‘anti-masker’. Different states have different laws regarding masks. As of August 10, Wisconsin’s state agency requires employees to wear masks even on Zoom calls   45:58 - With all that’s happening in the world, especially the year of 2020, it’s almost laughable we can’t tell real news from fake news. What institutions can we trust with the most up-to-date news?   50:15 - False information: fault of the media and those in positions of authority, or fault of the people? We want to be able to trust what we read and hear without needing to fact check everything.   55:25 - Health and nutrition research studies. The samples, methods, biases, and why those make a difference in the results of the study. Trials and results often only published when it is in your favor or confirm what it is that you wanted to prove.   59:10 - Richard Feynman’s speech on the dangers of cargo cult science. Feynman’s tells of a tribal society who often received supplies and materials from an airplane during war times. They tried to re-attain these goods by creating imitation runway landings and bamboo radio antennas. Although they were doing all the preparation work to receive the supplies, they did not understand why it didn’t come. Science that lacks integrity, although looks “scientific” is what we call cargo cult science.   1:02:55 - Link between science and marketing. Funding a study that will produce results in your favor to appear more credible and support your message. Hydroxychloroquine and it’s supposed ability to treat Covid topic attracting strong opinions on social media, to the form of bot usage.   1:07:40 - Drug approvals and Right to Try law. Drug companies need to pass phase 3 testing to receive support from insurance companies, and also most report results from treatments of patients from the Right to Try law. Often times with those patients being extremely sick given their only option is to shell out the money without the help of insurance, it could hurt the chances of drug approvals.   1:13:57 - The rate at which the vaccine for Covid is coming vs. treatments for other diseases. There is the ‘hype’ element behind Covid mixed with the way lifestyle has been impacted by the virus that has pushed up the need to find a vaccine for it quickly.   1:17:58 - North Korea: Covid cases in Korea, the death hoax of Kim Jong-un, and North Korean wine.   1:20:01 - Number of cases in the U.S. and how we are perceived by other countries. Uighur concentration camps in China. Propaganda and distrust of media. What is propaganda within our country being spread and being exported out of the country? We have seen a lot of propaganda both for and against Trump during his presidency, that accelerated the distrust of media.   1:23:00 - Operation Mockingbird. While some of the information surrounding Operation Mockingbird is unconfirmed, it’s interesting to read into these theories regarding operations to eavesdrop on journalists, alleged CIA operations to manipulate news media for propaganda purposes, etc.   1:27:11 - Fearful mentality within our country stemming from the upcoming election, riots, protesting, and lingering worry from Covid.   1:30:02 - Reopening schools debate is becoming very politically charged. Not to mention the food distribution that schools provide. With families staying home, and many families disproportionately being affected by Covid, the question becomes how will they be able to physically attend their jobs while the children are home, and provide the extra 2 meals per day that the schools were supplying?   1:32:11 - Wealth disparity. The large companies are benefitting from the downfall of their smaller competitors from the decline of consumer demand due to Covid. Other companies with an online presence saw a boost in business as good and services moved online. The debate whether companies will stay remote long after the virus to lower company costs.   1:39:27 - With work moving online, this brings the option of hiring workers from overseas that’s lower in cost relative to the U.S. Cost of being an employee vs. employer.   1:42:22 - Tools for automation.   1:44:55 - Scale by Jeffrey West is the book used for the next podcast episode. Stay tuned for future episodes. We are happy to be back!   We're back with an off-topic episode of Made You Think after almost a year and a half hiatus. The plan was to catch up on what's been going on, but that didn't happen and we ended up talking a lot about COVID, the economy, politics, some books we'd read, and a whole lot more.   If you've missed us or are new to the pod, this is a great way to dive back in before our next real episode which should be out in a week or two.

Infinite Jest is a book meant to be an actively read –it’s meant to take a certain amount of work to finish it and try to figure out what’s going on. While David Foster Wallace, the author, spends words and words in beautiful descriptions, he purposefully omitted, exchanged, and told through the characters lenses parts of the story. In this episode Nat and Neil are going through some of the theories people have created to help understand the book. We cover a wide range of topics, including: Hal's relationship with the mold and DMZ Mario's ascendance References to Hamlet, 1984, and other books and authors If Infinite Jest will become a film A MYT classic: Aquatic Apes Theory! And much more. Please enjoy, and be sure to grab a copy of Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out the previous episode on Infinite Jest for more in-depth review of the book. Also, Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, another of the longest books we read, that ended up filmed for a movie. Be sure to join our mailing list to find out about what books are coming up, giveaways we're running, special events, and more. Links from the Episode Mentioned in the show Reddit [3:20] Creative Commons [3:30] What Happens at the End of Infinite Jest? (or, the Infinite Jest ending explained) – Aaron Swartz Blog [3:40] Futurama [11:33] Pineapple Express [11:35] Aquatic Apes Theory [16:02] The Wraith – The Ambiguities Blog [20:11] Lost [23:40] John Wayne and Avril Conspiracy Theories [25:28] Medusa [33:36] Atlas Shrugged (film series) [40:30] Game of Thrones [43:00] The Office [45:10] Books mentioned Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace (book episode) Hamlet by William Shakespeare [5:23] The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka [7:48] 1984 by George Orwell [26:50] The Pale King by David Foster Wallace [36:50] Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand [46:38] (book episode) The Romance of The Three Kingdoms by Luo Guanzhong [47:07] Les Miserables by Victor Hugo [47:10] War and Peace by Tolstoy [47:29] People mentioned David Foster Wallace Aaron Swartz [2:25] 0:00 – Spoiler Alert: this a commentary to Infinite Jest book. We discuss theories about those parts of the book that were left without There will be spoilers. Refer to the previous episode for more deep book review. 3:55 – Theory #1. The ghost/wraith is pretty obviously Hal’s father, the guy who made the Entertainment. He’s spirit was kind of resurrected by the radiation coming from the garbage dumped in the are he was buried. Allusions to Hamlet. JOI created Infinite Jest to take Hal out of his shell of silence. Unreliable narrators. 6:49 – Theory #2. DMZ or Madam Psychosis. The wraith steals the drug to give it to Hal via the toothbrush. Parallel with Kafka’s Metamorphosis. Hal’s experiences with the mold. He couldn’t communicate → Eats the mold → Communicates, but emotionless and stoic → Gets DMZ → Can’t talk again, but gains emotional complexity. 9:55 – Theory #3. Effects of marijuana withdrawal. Hal’s collapse and Gately’s help in the hospital. Digging up Hal’s father’s head. Connection with Gately’s vision. Hal, Gately, Joelle and John Wayne looking for the anti-Entertainment cartridge but it’s not there anymore. The suspect falls on Orin. How he new about it? Probably because of Joelle (they were dating). 13:21 – Weird theories around Avril, Hal-Orin-Mario’s mom. Apparently Avril is modeled after DFW’s mom. Theory #4. She is an A.F.R. or O.U.S. member, the secret terrorists or intelligence organizations. Affairs with John Wayne, Charles C.T. (stepbrother?). 16:10 – Theory #5. Orin, the oldest brother, fathered Mario with Avril. Avril can be the hand model. Orin doesn’t go to his father funeral. Other stories of parents abusing their sons. Who was in the car with Avril? 18:59 – Why was ghost Jim moving stuff around in the tennis academy? 19:59 – Theory #6. Why DFW uses the word wraith instead of ghost? The wraith explains to Don that it takes enormous effort for him to appear to Don: “Wraiths by and large exist (putting his arms out slowly and making little quotation-mark finger-wiggles as he said exist) in a totally different Heisenbergian dimension of rate-change and time-passage.”  Therefore, the wraith has to stand still for extremely long periods of time to appear at all to Don. 21:07 – Theory #7. Speculations that Jim ends up possessing Hal. 22:24 – Theory #8. How did DFW write the book? Did he mapped all out and then intentionally leave out specific sections so people can come up with theories? TV shows with open twists. Apparently Infinite Jest was longer. 24:53 – Theory #9. C.T. is Mario’s father. 25:23 – Theory #10. Avril and Luria are the same person. Theory #11. Orin didn’t die by the end of the book. 1984 flashbacks in the scenes with Luria. 27:08 – Mold in the basement. Mold that feeds on mold. Criticism against mold as a real thing, and more as a metaphor of the teens age difficulties. 29:33 – Theory #12. Did Hal watch the Entertainment or part of it? Doubts about how he got a copy of the movie. 31:11 – Theory #13. Hal has internally self synthesized DMZ because of the mold. 32:26 – Orin thought Joelle and Himself were lovers. Maybe that was because he didn’t want to attend his father funeral. Speculations about covering Joelle: is she disfigured or is she really so beautiful that needs to use a veil? How Joelle got acid in her face. Molly’s story. Joelle using a veil after filming Infinite Jest. 35:30 – What was the movie about? Things the reader is not allowed to know. Other DFW books. Difficulties explaining what’s the book about. Addiction and living passively. 40:00 – Would Infinite Jest make a good movie or not? Problems with Atlas Shrugged bad movie. Formats evolving after Netflix. Most of the value in Infinite Jest comes from the descriptions, not that much happens between the characters. Getting the chaotic feeling to a movie. DFW against an Infinite Jest movie. Longest books. Sierra Leone and Quebequian terrorists. 48:55 – If you enjoyed this weird episode of Made You Think, we appreciate any review on iTunes or if you share with your friends. If you didn’t like it, it’s OK, that’s an experiment, so go listen to a normal episode of the podcast. The previous episode about Infinite Jest is probably a much better introduction to the book than this episode. Find us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason and join the email list at Made You Think Podcast. The email list is the best way to stay up to date on future episodes and things that are going on with the show. Check out ways to support the show at madeyouthinkpodcast.com/support.  

“This wise old whiskery fish swims up to three young fish and goes, 'Morning, boys, how's the water?' and swims away; and the three young fish watch him swim away and look at each other and go, 'What the fuck is water?' and swim away.” In this episode of Made You Think, Neil and Nat discuss Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace. This is a huge novel taking time in a fictitious 2010 characterized by a non-conventional timeline and a lack of a plot. Despite it’s challenging structure and the fact of being a fiction, it has a lot of philosophical nuggets about particularly on the activeness vs passiveness way of living. We cover a wide range of topics, including: Hitting goals and sense of satisfaction Letting life happen to you while watching TV Accurate visions of the world in 2020 Best porno-like book titles How Nat & Neil broke and got back together 1-on-1 sports and their secondary effect on us And much more. Please enjoy, and be sure to grab a copy of Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our episode on Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman, another book that critics how media and TV are ruining our lives, and The Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Gallwey, another book that shows how tennis is not just about hitting balls with a racket. Be sure to join our mailing list to find out about what books are coming up, giveaways we're running, special events, and more. Links from the Episode Mentioned in the show Kindle (link Amazon) [8:06] iPad [9:10] Netflix [17:50] The Office [18:36] BoJack Horseman [19:50] Cup & Leaf [40:44] A Crash Course in Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Cryptocurrency (crypto episode) [42:57] AA - Alcoholics Anonymous [50:30] Ad Blocker [1:05:56] The Trouble With Facebook by Sam Harris [1:06:25] Snapchat [1:07:26] Skype [1:09:10] Mushroom Coffee [1:14:50] University of Arizona [1:18:39] The College Dropout by Kanye West [1:32:20] (album episode) The Matrix [1:33:07] Primer [1:33:14] Books mentioned Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter [2:25] (Nat’s notes) (book episode) Ulysses by James Joyce [7:16] Finnegans Wake by James Joyce [7:17] The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus [37:59] (book episode) Cleveland is King by Brendan Bowers [38:20] The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz [45:12] Skin in the Game by Nassim Taleb [46:37] (book episode) Discipline and Punish by Michel Foucault  [46:47] (book episode) 12 Rules for Life by Dr. Jordan Peterson [46:55] (book episode) Strange Loops [47:07] (book episode) Mastery by Robert Greene [47:10] (book episode) Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman [47:16] (book episode) The Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Gallwey [52:05] (book episode) Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell [58:55] Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand [1:15:19] (book episode) Elegant Complexity by Greg Carlisle [1:15:50] Hamlet by William Shakespeare [1:22:44] People mentioned David Foster Wallace Quentin Tarantino [18:10] Michael Schur [18:58] B.J. Novak [19:36] Kyrie Irving [38:15] LeBron James [38:50] Taylor Pearson [42:57] Trump [1:04:20] Sam Harris [1:06:25] Mattan Griffel [1:19:26] David Perell [1:28:23] James Joyce [1:30:00] Martin Scorsese [1:32:00] Kanye West [1:32:20] (College Dropout episode) Joe Rogan [1:35:41] Show Topics 0:00 – Spoiler Alert: it’s a fiction book, there will be spoilers. However, this is not a normal book. There is not much of a plot, so to say. This is probably a book intended to be re-read. It’s self referential, once you reach the end it intends you to go back to the beginning. 2:50 – The book doesn’t follow the timeline of events. If you are confused, congrats! That’s the point of the book :). The “missing” year is where most of the action takes. 3:35 – “Fiction is about what it’s like to be a f**cking human being”, David Foster Wallace. The central plot of our lives is just a narrative fallacy. The book gives a sense that it’s like life, in a weird way. Life is extremely complex, but we try to give it a narrative with sequential events. The characters don’t suffer a major transformation. The book ends right before all the crazy stuff is going to happen, but nothing happens yet. 6:26 – DFW intended the book to be an active work of fiction as opposed to just something you  seat back and read. There are more than 350 endnotes with essential information to the plot, so you can’t skip them. It’s highly suggested to read it on a Kindle because of them. 9:45 – There are no dates to anchor yourself on. The 10 years where the story takes place, they stop using numbers for the years, but a company’s name that sponsors or subsides that year (“subsidized time”). 11:23 – One of the central characters (that is barely referenced btw) created a movie that is so entertaining that people would watch it till they die. This movie is called “Infinite Jest”. Again, the book is chaotic and focus on the characters details rather than a story. Some parts start getting boring (eg. a kids tennis play) but you don’t want to skip them because something important is said in a couple of sentences. Random passages are really beautiful essays. 13:29 – It’s such a weird book to even talk about. It seems we are talking about a dream that we had. Supernatural characters (a ghost, a guy that levitates) may confuse you and make you doubt about your comprehension. 15:12 – Each chapter is made up of many subchapters, that can have from one sentence to 30 pages. Usually, the point of view is changed for any new subchapter, like into a different character who might be in a different place or even year or day. Sometimes you don’t know what day or character you’re getting drop in to until you’re a couple of pages into it, so it’s moving around a lot. 17:05 – What would the book like if it was written knowing Google exists? What would a movie about Infinite Jest be like? Tarantino could direct this movie. Michael Schur, co-producer and actor of The Office TV series owns the movie rights to Infinite Jest. There are many reference to the book and the author in The Office. Other TV show, BoJack Horseman, seems to be loosely based on this book. Addiction component in the book, and addiction issues that the author had. Psychological addiction to marijuana. 21:52 – Broader context of the main characters. There are basically three or four groups that have their own separate stories and those main groups intersect throughout the novel. There is the tennis academy. A particular family with 3 brothers, Hal, Orin and Mario. The addiction home next to the tennis academy. And the groups of terrorists together with those who are fighting them. The book is hilarious at many times, including laughing out loud funny and horrible tragic things at the same time. There are some absurd parts of the book, that are also very funny because of the way they are written. 26:04 – Weird plots. The wheelchair terrorists that want to kill Americans with a movie. The undercovered anti-terrorist agent that dresses like a woman. The male character enamored with “her”. Kid with his forehead stuck in a glass. The way Jim commits suicide sticking his head in a microwave. Hal tricking the psycho therapists having a major breakthrough. The list of people dying watching the film at one guy’s house. Death by passivity. Examples of characters that stuck between an easy passive life and the will of doing something bigger. 36:12 – Beautiful nonfiction parts. Discussion of kids hitting their goals: “one is that you attain the goal and realize the shocking realization that attaining the goal does not complete or redeem you, does not make everything for your life “OK ” as you are, in the culture, educated to assume it will do this, the goal. And then you face this fact that what you had thought would have the meaning does not have the meaning when you get it, and you are impaled by shock.” “It is more invigorating to want than to have”. Kyrie Irving, the basketball player, pissed off after winning everything with the Cavaliers. Finding new hills to climb instead of contenting of reaching the top. Happiness comes from the climb, not much from the achievement. Boredom aversion. Losing the impetus to perform after hitting your goals. Veterans missing the war. “If you’re worried you can feel safe, and if you feel safe you should be worried”. Books with porno titles. 47:34 – Infinite Jest is the fictional version of Amusing Ourselves to Death. Heavy critic on TV. Avoiding letting life happen to you, instead of an active life. Effects of the addiction phase, and breaking through it. Cleanse from addiction hero journey. Self improvement and infinite games found in 1-on-1 sports like tennis, box, or martial arts. Yes, you’re fighting against another player, but mainly the fight is against your brain. 53:53 – Transcending own limits. The opponent is yourself. Most characters are fighting an internal battle throughout the novel. Relationship between DFW and his editor. All typos were intentional. First and third person narrators through the book, and the relation to typos. 1:00:53 – The author sees irony almost like a safety valve that people use to avoid feeling real things. Mario, one of the characters, says (or thinks) “there is some rule that real stuff can only get mentioned if everybody rolls their eyes or laughs in a way that isn't happy.” Laughing to avoid deep conversations. In the book, the author takes serious things and wraps them in absurd and funny incidents to make them tolerable or digestible. 1:05:06 – Predictions of the internet. Advertising invading every surface and communication. Snapchat filters. The rise and fall of video calls: “the amazing things about phones is that you can be paying half attention while assuming the other person is giving you their full attention”. The problem of video calls. 1:12:48 – We broke. No, we haven’t, but we missed the opportunity. 1:15:01 – The support of the reading companion. Getting through the first pages of the book. To read or not to read Infinite Jest. Is it worth it? Signaling. Perceptions about the book, what they liked and what not. Nat: “it’s one of the most incredible books I’ve read that I never ever want to read again”. Neil compares this type of difficult to read books with beers. Endurance and feeling of accomplishment. 1:28:23 – The Infinite Jest Reader’s Club. Writers that want to prove how smart writers they are. Fashion designers showing off. Impressing your peers and justifying your professional existence. Kindle reading time estimation. DFW use of psychotropics. Worsts things of the book. 1:40:26 – Stay tuned if you want to listen to a more spoilered version of this book. Find us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS and @nateliason and let us know your version about what happened in the book. Leave a review and share it with your friends if you like the show. Join the email list at Made You Think Podcast, which is the best way to stay up to date on future episodes and things that are going on with the show. Check out ways to support the show at madeyouthinkpodcast.com/support.