Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

The Story of Lorraine and "Anna" In today's podcast, David and Rhonda interview Dr. Lorraine Wong, a board-certified clinical psychologist, and her patient, "Anna," who sought treatment recently for depression, anxiety, and self-image / self-esteem issues. But first, David and Rhonda answer a question submitted by Estafonia, a "public image consultant," who asks about the treatment of a woman who sees herself as "fat." Estafonia wrote: "Hi Dr. Burns, "I am learning TEAM, CBT and implementing your techniques to help my clients change or improve their self-perception. In most cases, your techniques have been very effective. I am very grateful to you and I will happily join your list of fans! "My question is this—What would be the best method to change someone's self-image? How can you help people change the idea that they are fat for example? "I have a patient who can't defeat the thought, 'I am fat.' We tried the method called Examine the Evidence," and she has already found 20 people who see her as thin. So, the evidence clearly did not support her belief that she is fat. But this did not help. "We also tried the method called Let's Define Terms, and we both concluded that she is not fat. But now she tells me, 'I know I am not fat, but I can't stop thinking about it.' "We also did the Downward Arrow Technique to probe her deepest fears and Self-Defeating Beliefs, but that didn't seem to help, either, and she keeps ruminating about being fat. I would greatly appreciate your guidance on how to help her overcome that thought! "Thanks in advance! Estefania" Lorraine, Rhonda, David and Anna quickly diagnose the most likely cause of Estefania's stuckness—she is trying to "help" her patient without first melting away her patient's resistance. This is the cause of practically all therapeutic failure, and you're not really doing TEAM-CBT if you don't know how to eliminate the patient's resistance. That's because most people are ambivalent about change. As the Jesuit mystic, Anthony DeMello, has said: "We yearn for change but cling to the familiar." Recognizing and modifying this inherent ambivalence is the heart of A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting, but you can also think of the A as standing for "Assessment of Resistance." How could we melt away this woman's ambivalence / reluctance to stop bombarding herself with the message, "I'm fat"? It is important to realize that this self-critical thought, and, in fact, all of her negative thoughts and feelings have huge advantages for her, and also indicate some really beautiful and awesome things about her and her core values. For example, telling herself "I'm fat" may motivate her to diet, to exercise, and to make extra sure that she doesn't get complacent and gain a tremendous amount of weight. In addition, the thought, "I'm fat," shows that she has high standards, and her high standards have probably motivated her success in many areas of her life. For example, she probably works really hard to stay in good health and in good physical condition. The thought, "I'm fat," also shows that she's humble, and on and on and on. And that's just one negative thought. But this woman probably has many negative thoughts and feelings, like anxiety, shame, inferiority and depression, and they ALL have tremendous advantages, and they ALL reveal what is beautiful and awesome about her and her core values. In addition, the thought may be protecting this patient from things she fears, like intimacy. As long as she tells herself, "I'm fat," she does have to risk trying to get close, or having sex, or risking rejection. So the thought, in a way, is a form of self-love and self-protection. Once Estafonia and her patient list all these positives, Estafonia could ask her patient, "Given all these advantages and positive qualities, maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea to stop telling yourself, 'I'm fat.' This thought seems to be working for you in a really positive way, and also reflects your core values." That's the essence of Paradoxical Agenda Setting. We try, in a genuine way, to honor the patient's resistance, rather than trying to sell the patient on change. This is very difficult for therapists to learn because of the compulsion to save, help, or rescue the patient. In addition, obsessions (recurring illogical negative thoughts like "I'm fat") frequently result from the Hidden Emotion phenomenon, and this has to be dealt with skillfully when treating any patient with anxiety. Estafonia's patient may be upset about something she's not dealing with in her life, and bringing the hidden problem or feelings to conscious awareness can often be incredibly helpful. For more information, see my book, When Panic Attacks, which you can order from my books page (link). After focusing on Estafonia's excellent question, David, Rhonda, Lorraine and Anna talk about the emotional challenges that brought Anna to treatment, including severe feelings of depression which came on when Anna returned to the United States after 13 years working abroad. She was also feeling anxious, stuck, angry, and hopeless, and was comforting herself by binging on her three favorite foods. Anna describes previous partial treatment failures, and explains that her previous cognitive therapist had "the empathy of a prison guard," and contrasts those experiences with her successful experience with Lorraine. In fact, Anna describes the TEAM-CBT she received at the Feeling Good Institute as "cognitive therapy on steroids." I (David) loved hearing that because this is how I think about TEAM-CBT, too! TEAM really is CBT on steroids! But, I've been too embarrassed to describe TEAM-CBT in this way, fearing it might sound crass or unprofessional. Anna and Lorraine explain why the T = Testing and E = Empathy of TEAM were so critical to the success of the therapy. Anna says that Lorraine was, in fact, the first therapist "who really got me, and really understood me!" Anna emphasizes the enormous importance of the A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting (aka Assessment of Resistance) as well. Lorraine helped Anna discover what was beautiful and awesome about all of her negative feelings, including severe depression, shame, anxiety, anger, loneliness, and even hopelessness. She said, "My depression and feelings of loss when I moved showed that I really care about what I do, as well as the people around me." Anna also said that her anger showed that she was overly nice, out of her love for people, but that she had the right to set boundaries and stick up for herself, and didn't always have to be a people-pleaser. The Positive Reframing proved to be a positive shock to the system, and Anna's symptoms started to improve significantly even before starting the M = Methods phase of the TEAM-CBT treatment. The Positive Reframing made it relatively easy for Anna to smash the negative, self-critical thoughts that triggered her depression, anxiety, shame, and hopelessness, and then they moved on to other goals, such as using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication in her interactions with colleagues and friends. Finally, they focused on self-image issues, which brings us back to the question Estafonia had posed at the start of the podcast: How you can help patients with self-image problems and addictions to eating? Anna explained that when she was depressed, she had gained weight because of her addiction to salami (Mmmm!), ice cream (Yummm!), and rice and beans (WOW!) Lorraine used David's "Devil's Advocate Technique," to help Anna challenge the tempting thoughts that always triggered her overeating. Rhonda and I are incredibly grateful to Lorraine (aka Dr. Wong) and "Anna" for this opportunity to bring TEAM to life in a very real and personal way. Thank you, Lorraine and Anna! Dr. Lorraine Wong is a certified Level 4 TEAM-CBT therapist and practices at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California. She specializes in the treatment of body image concerns and emotional eating, as well as depression and anxiety, with TEAM-CBT. Thanks for tuning in! David and Rhonda

Ask David Five Secrets Relationship Questions Kate asks: I love listening to your podcasts and am currently reading my way through your book, Feeling Good. I appreciate that you have written and spoken about relationship problems at length, but in what I have read and heard so far I do not see how this can apply to the current climate of casual dating and hook up culture which is fueled by apps such as Tinder. I don't know how it's possible to build relationships when the dominant mentality is that people are disposable. It feels like no matter how much I find truth in what my date says, stroke them and empathize with them, that they will disappear ('ghost') at the drop of a hat. I think this may be a significant problem for many of your listeners, and would greatly appreciate your thoughts, as well as any practical steps on how to date in today's world. * * * Eli asks: Your work has helped me tremendously over the past 2 years. However, recently I've discovered something about myself that I don't know how to change. I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts. For some reason, when it comes to sex, it seems that I have a lot of self-worth wrapped up in my sex drive. I'm realizing when my wife and I have sex I feel like I'm on top of the world afterwards. I feel so positive the following few days and I feel mentally and emotionally healthy. But it's devastatingly real that the reverse is true as well... when we don't have sex (and particularly when I reach out and she's not in the mood) and when a week or so passes that we don't have sex, I find myself feeling very insecure. I feel ugly, unlovable and generally less valuable as a person. Is there an exercise you would recommend for me to discover possible hidden thoughts/emotions that could be causing this? Is it possible to change this about myself? I want to have a close, intimate relationship with my wife (sexually and non-sexually) but I also want to feel valuable and positive whether or not we're sexually active. PS - If, by chance, you address this on the podcast, could you refer to me as "Eli" or something else anonymous as you usually do. Thank you for all you have do! * * * Susan asks: You seem like a good person to ask this question partly because you are a man. Someone I know, I won't say whom, told me he felt emasculated when I asked him to take my car to the gas station to get the wipers replaced. He said that he should be able to replace them himself but doesn't actually know how, so he would prefer if I took the car to the service station. I said that was stupid, granted not very diplomatic, and he said that's what he gets for expressing his feelings, which I frequently complain he does not do. To me "emasculated" is more of a concept or a thought. I will not get into toxic masculinity and the patriarchy, but I am curious what you think. By the way, this person and I have benefited a lot from your relationship journal exercise, thankfully we did not need it this time :-) * * * Knaidu asks: Here's a specific example which occurred whilst I was trying to use the disarming technique. It is one where I failed to use the technique. Anyway, I was meeting a friend of mine, and was a running a few min late for our lunch appointment. I couldn't send her text to let her know as I was driving. I arrived at least 5 min late. When I arrived she immediately said "I knew it all along, you really don't want to meet with me or actually have lunch with me!" I tried to explain that I was stuck in a traffic jam and couldn't text, but it didn't work. Here's what I said: "Please Mrs. X, I was stuck in a traffic jam and that's why I am late. Have I ever said I don't want to meet with you? And if I didn't why have I bothered to arrive at all, I mean I could have just not arrived if I didn't want to meet you!" After I said that she stormed off. I am afraid I could agree with her idea that I didn't really want to meet with her, because the truth was I did want to meet but couldn't help being late. I could agree with something that was not real to me and if I did try to agree, I would be lying to her. Please help me, David and Rhonda! Thanks for tuning in, and keep the great questions coming! David and Rhonda

New Ask David Questions Kelly asks: Would love to hear a podcast about to use or not to use touch in therapy. I personally feel touch is extremely helpful (what is more natural than to hug or put a hand on someone hurting), however I believe our profession has become so "professionalized" that is leaves out such a power act of healing. Did you ever use touch when you were practicing, and do you feel it is appropriate? Against Machines Taking Over asks: You say that depression always results from distorted thoughts. But the sadness that results from a failure, rejection, or disappointment is not distorted. Can you explain a bit more about this? Against Machines Taking Over also asks: Is there something you used to advocate for before but then you changed your mind? Eduardo asks: How do you treat hypochondriasis. Almost all articles and advices I've read for hypochondriasis try to cover the writer's back by first and foremost telling you that you should get yourself checked for real causes for your concern. Eduardo also asks: I've been struggling with anxiety, and after reading When Panic Attacks, I got very interested in giving The Hidden Emotion model a try, but it seems to be structure-less. It seems to require a lot of detective work with no clear sheet or procedure. It's just Detective Work, and then do something about it. Is there some newer technique to dig into what's eating you?

In today's podcast, Rhonda and I interview the incredibly brilliant, funny, and creative Amy Spector. Amy is a licensed marriage and family therapist and credentialed school counselor with over a decade of experience working with adolescents and their families. She is passionate about providing school-based mental health services and advocates for legislation to mandate universal mental health care for youth. Amy works with "at risk" teenagers at Vicente High School in Martinez, California. This is a continuation high school, as well as teens at Briones School, an independent study school. Her students are credit deficient and at risk of not graduating from high school. Nearly all have experienced significant trauma and most are severely depressed, anxious and angry when first referred to Amy, and some have suicidal thoughts or urges as well. Although you might think that this would be an exceptionally challenging, oppositional, and frustrating group to work with, Amy has had tremendous success treating these teenagers with TEAM-CBT. She measures symptom severity at the start and end of every session, just as we do with adults, and often reports a phenomenal reduction of 60% in depression and anxiety in a single, 30-minute therapy session. Although this may be hard, or even impossible, to believe, it is real, and you'll see why when you listen to this amazing interview. Amy's secret involves a combination of superb E = Empathy skills to form a meaningful relationship, along with A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting to reduce resistance, followed by truly creative applications of M = Methods. And, of course, she does T = Testing with every student at every session, and plots her effectiveness over time. Amy describes her work with a severely anxious young man with artistic skills, who drew an "Anxiety Hero" figure who saves the world by worrying constantly about every little thing, plus a "Chilled Out" figure who never worries and ends up getting hit by a bus. In other words, Amy skillfully emphasized the many BENEFITS of the young's man's constant anxiety, as well as the downside of getting cured. This paradoxically boosted his motivation, and he improved rapidly. This is prototypical TEAM, which is difficult for many therapists to learn, because therapists are so used to, and addicted to, "helping." Amy has developed expertise in aligning with the resistance of her students. paradoxically, she ends up on the same page, and this allows some awesome TEAMwork to emerge. Amy, Rhonda and David talk about the idea of teaching TEAM through creative innovations, with many examples of games Amy has created. For example, she created a game with another one of our fabulous TEAM-CBT therapists, Brandon Vance, MD, which can be played with teens and adults, called "Tune In / Tune Up." This game provides a really fun way to learn the 5-Secrets of Effective Communication. If you're interested, you can check it out at www.gamefulmind.com. Amy and her students have also created a podcast that you might want check out. Although I (David) have been primarily an adult shrink, I have really enjoyed working with teenagers as well. A few years back, I tested hundreds of juveniles who had been arrested in California, many for violent crimes, including murder, at the request of the probation department, using my Brief Mood Survey to find out how depressed, anxious, suicidal, and angry the kids were. Toward the end of the podcast, I describe what happened when I was invited to visit two groups of incarcerated gang members at the Juvenile Hall in San Mateo, California to find out how they felt about the tests I administered, and to get their take on the causes of so much teen violence. I think you'll find this episode to be fun, funny, and inspiring! Amy is a strong advocate for including mental health training in high schools, and her experience illustrates the enormous potential for rapid and profound mental health growth and learning in teens. If you would like to contact Amy, she can be reached at babyfreud@gmail.com.

Are there some special techniques therapists need to use when working with LGBTQ patients? Does the therapeutic approach have to be different? In today's podcast, Rhonda and David interview Kyle Jones, a brilliant 5th year PhD student at Palo Alto University. Kyle has been a member of David's training group at Stanford for the past four years, and now sees patients at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. Today's program is based on Kyle's doctoral research on the treatment of LGBTQ patients. To get the interview started, Kyle defines LGBTQ: L = lesbian G = gay B = bisexual T = transsexual Q = questioning, or queer. Then Rhonda asks the obvious question: How does the treatment of LGBTQ individuals differ from the treatment of individuals who are heterosexual? What are the key differences? What special techniques or procedures should therapists use? And what does Kyle's research reveal about the important factors in the treatment of gay individuals? Kyle emphasizes that most important factor is the therapist's attitude toward the patient, as opposed to any special techniques or procedures that are unique to the treatment of the gay population. Sensitivity to and awareness of the unique challenges this population faces in terms of hatred and prejudice are tremendously important. Kyle points out that some therapists place an excessive focus on the patient's gayness, while some tend to sweep this "uncomfortable" issue under the rug. Kyle emphasizes that the therapeutic approach is largely the same for gay and straight patients. In TEAM, we first provide strong empathy, so the patient feels understood and accepted. This, of course, is crucial for all patients. Then we set the agenda, asking the patient if she or he wants help, and if so, what is the problem that he or she wants help with? In other words, there is no special "agenda" that the therapist should impose on the treatment simply because the patient is gay. Kyle mentions that this is not a trivial point, because many therapists will try to set the agenda for the patient, thinking there is some "correct" way one should treat gay people, or some "correct" set of issues that must be addressed. David points out that thinking there is a special approach to gay patients could actually be viewed as a type of bias, thinking that the treatment of members of the LGBTQ community must be somehow "different" or special. In TEAM, we do NOT treat disorders, diagnoses, or "types" of patients. We treat humans in a highly individualize way, using the fractal approach described in a previous podcast. In other words, we ask the client to describe one specific moment when he or she was upset and wants help. Then the treatment flows from the exploration of that specific moment, because all the patient's problems will be encapsulated in how she or he was thinking, feeling, and behaving at that moment. The treatment might then focus on depression, anxiety, a relationship problem, or a habit or addiction. Rhonda, Kyle and David discuss the problem of therapists who have a strong anti-gay bias. David talks about his father's work, trying to convert gay students at the University of Arizona after he retired from his work as a Lutheran Minister in Phoenix, and how much shame and anger David felt about this. David described his positive bias toward LGBTQ individuals, because of the suffering most have had to endure due to hatred and prejudice. David asks whether gays therapists are obligated to announce their sexual orientation to their patients, and Rhonda and Kyle come up with some pretty cool answers! Rhonda points out that when and how to do self-disclosure is a question all therapists face, and that the goal of self-disclosure in therapy should be on how best to help the patient, not the therapist. Again, this question of the hows, whens and ifs of self-disclosure is a general therapy issue, and not something specific to gay therapists. Kyle and David reflect on some of the personal work Kyle did during his training program, and how important that work has been to Kyle as he has evolved into a dynamic, compassionate therapist and teacher. They reminisce about the first personal work Kyle did with David on one of the Sunday hikes. Kyle was feeling depressed because he'd just been rejected, unexpectedly, by his boyfriend, and was able to turn the situation around dramatically and quickly using TEAM-CBT. Kyle also describes his own discovery during college that he was gay, and what happened when he shared his sexual orientation with his parents and brother. The message of this podcast turned out to be pretty simple and basic. The key to the effective treatment of all of our patients is acceptance. The therapist needs to accept the patient, and the patient needs to learn to accept himself or herself. In fact, acceptance seems to be the path to recovery and enlightenment for all of us, whether gay or straight! David D. Burns, MD, Rhonda Barovsky, PsyD and Kyle Jones (PhD candidate)

What can you do when you can't identify your negative thoughts? Is it really true that our feelings always result from negative thoughts? How can I get over my public speaking anxiety? Rubens, a faithful and enthusiastic Feeling Good Podcast fan, sent me an email with a terrific question that has both practical and theoretical implications. He wrote: Dear Mr. David, I've read "Feeling Good" and I'm reading "When Panic Attacks" now. Both have and are helping me immensely. However, the one thing I have never understood is that my anxieties and worries often don't come as a thought. For instance, I have an academic presentation tomorrow, and I'm suffering from much anxiety because of that. But the symptoms did not appear because I thought in my mind the sentence "you are going to fail!". In my case, it is usually silent. I just remember that I have a presentation tomorrow, then I immediately feel worried. My chest hurts before any thought. How do I counter-argument my thoughts, if I have none? Thank you for replying, Mr. David! In today's podcast, Rhonda and I address this question and explain what to do when you can't pinpoint your negative thoughts. There are two really good methods. We will also demonstrate how to deal with some of the negative thoughts that typically trigger public speaking anxiety. The cure involves changing the way you think, and changing the way you communicate with the people in your audience. If you've ever struggled with public speaking anxiety, this podcast may be helpful for you! Thank you again, Rubens, for your excellent question! David D. Burns, MD / Rhonda Barovsky, PsyD

I recently published the results of a survey of Feeling Good Podcast fans like yourself. The findings were overwhelmingly positive and illuminating. However, there were a few criticisms as well, like the excellent and thoughtful comments Rhonda and I will address in this podcast. I appreciate negative feedback, as this provides the greatest opportunities for growth and learning. However, like most people, I sometimes find criticisms emotionally challenging and want to lash out, defending myself! Do you sometimes feel that way, too? When I feel defensive, its because I think I have a "self" or some cherished "territory" that's under attack. When I let go of this "self," it can be incredibly liberating to find truth in a criticism and discover that the feedback is really coming from a trusted colleague or friend, rather than some enemy who is trying to destroy or defeat you! Here's what s/he wrote: Dr. Burns, you seem to disregard healing modalities outside of CBT. CBT is wonderful and nobody teachers it better than Dr Burns—I believe that it is a foundational practice to well-being. However, working with difficult emotions is very important and not always well addressed through CBT alone. Thinking CBT is the answer for most issues is loaded with cognitive distortions. Example--Discounting the Positive in other practices, All or Nothing Thinking, Magical Thinking, and seeing CBT as a "cure all." In my personal healing journey CBT has been absolutely essential--as has self compassion, learning to let things go, inner child work, mindfulness, somatic awareness and more. I have noticed there has repeatedly been a dismissive tone for other valuable practices. Obviously. the Feeling Good Podcast is about CBT and sticking to your expertise is essential. However, I would be careful not to disregard other healing practices that could potentially help someone out. I have such respect for Dr Burns and his team-but your words carry weight- please be thoughtful about discounting other methods that could be helping someone. Thank you, whoever you are, for this thought-provoking feedback. And you are SO RIGHT. Cognitive Therapy has value for some problems, but it is definitely NOT a panacea. In fact, no treatment is! The belief that you have THE ANSWER for everything is incredibly misguided but unfortunately, way too common in our field. I have no doubt that many people have shared your concerns. Let us know what you think after you hear today's podcast! David and Rhonda

How would you overcome the fear of aging? Can you use TEAM for sports psychology? Describe your typical day, David-- do you ever get down or anxious? Hi Listeners: Thanks for your many and awesome questions. I love to answer them! And there will be more to come in future podcasts. Your questions are GREAT! Vipul: Tell us about your new book, Feeling Great. How will it be different from Feeling Good? And can people with schizoaffective disorder be helped? (story with Stirling Moorey) Guy: What's a nervous breakdown? Rob: How would you treat a field goal kicker who's afraid of missing the winning field goal? Would you use positive visualizations? Michael: How would you treat someone with the fear of aging? I turn 60 in a few months, and have been experiencing anxiety around not be able to do some of the things I love as I age. Hidem: How fast is fast? I notice your frequent use of the term "High Speed Recovery" (and even Warp Speed) when describing the benefits of TEAM CBT. How rapidly does the average patient recover? Brittany: I had an idea that I think would benefit a lot of us. I'd like you to do a podcast on a week or a day in your life. The ups & downs of your moods, triggers, etc., & most importantly how you deal with them. Do you write out your own Negative Thoughts a Daily Mood Log? Thank you for all of your great questions, comments, and testimonials! Rhonda and I really appreciate that! David and Rhonda PS Here's a great question we did not get to today. We'll do it in a future Ask David, as it's really important. Rubens: What can you do when you can't identify your negative thoughts? I get anxious, but don't seem to have any negative thoughts. Is it really true that our feelings always result from negative thoughts?

Is it REALLY Possible? And Can the Effects Last? Rhonda and David interview Garry, a veteran who David treated for PTSD several years ago at a trauma workshop in Michigan. Garry describes how a repressed horrific memory from his childhood suddenly and forcefully re-emerged when he smelled some Queen Anne's Lace that were in blossom. He suddenly remembered how a school bus he was riding home on hit a horse with a boy, Tommy, who was riding bareback, when the horse suddenly lurched in front of the bus. Tommy was Gary's classmate. The bus driver said, "Don't look!" But Garry watched as his friend, who was trapped under the dead horse, "bled out" and died. Once this totally forgotten memory re-emerged decades later, roughly 18 months prior to Garry's session with David, it constantly intruded into Garry's every interaction for the next year and a half. Garry says, "I was seeing Tommy all the time, and having symptoms of anxiety, intrusive memory and dissociation experiences. I would often see the image of Tommy lying on the pavement superimposed over conversations I was happened with people in an intimate way. It was quite disturbing and anxiety provoking." Garry tearfully describes what he experienced during his TEAM-CBT session with David, including his dissociation at one point during the session, and the profound changes he experienced by the end of the session. Can severe PTSD be treated in a single therapy session? Did Garry really improve? Were the changes real? Did they last? And how did the therapy work? You'll find out when you listen to this amazing and inspiring interview! We are incredibly indebted to Garry for his courage and openness to share this experience with all of you!

Hi Listeners: Most people do not do a very good at helping loved ones, colleagues, or friends who are upset and complaining. Have you ever noticed that when you try to help or give advice they just keep complaining? This can be very frustrating--fortunately there's a fabulous solution to this universal problem. This special podcast features our guest, Dr. Jill Levitt, the Director of Clinical Training at the Feeling Good Institute. Jill is also one of the teachers at David's Tuesday evening psychotherapy training group at Stanford, as is our esteemed podcast host, Dr. Rhonda. Jill describes the "helping" errors she made when her son became despondent after some painful foot surgery. Following the surgery, he was in a cast for weeks, and when the cast was removed, he discovered that he could not move or feel his toes. This is common, and results from muscle atrophy when you are in a cast, and is not dangerous. However, Jill's son was very discouraged and frustrated, and told his mom that he didn't feel like going to school and thought he wasn't ever going to get better. Jill felt exhausted from all the demands on her that day, trying to get him off to school, and trying to get to work on time, and so forth, and gave in to the urge to say things like, "You're going to be fine," which were totally ineffective. Jill describes a similar error that she made when her mother also complained about foot problems and the need for surgery. Her mother loves to hike and was upset that she'd be unable to hike for some time. Jill, perhaps feeling a little impatient with her mom, suggested other forms of exercise, like swimming, and this simply increased her mother's complaints. I'll bet you've experienced this same thing when you tried to "help" someone who was complaining. Even therapists make this type of error all the time. Rhonda, Jill, and I discussed the most common errors we all make when we lose patience with someone who's complaining, and illustrated the techniques that are effective. As usual, they involve the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, especially Disarming, Stroking, and Feeling Empathy, along with some compassionate I Feel Statements. We also discussed the phenomenon of drifting in and out of Enlightenment, a concept first described by the Buddha. It is easy to drift out of enlightenment when we are rushing around, trying to get breakfast on the table, lunches made, kids to school, and ourselves off to work. It's so easy to feel overwhelmed and frustrated at those moments. Part of the process may include forgiving ourselves when we make mistakes, and using the 5-Secrets to repair relationships with our loved ones when we do. In fact, this can even lead to deeper and more loving relationships. We also discussed a closely related and possibly controversial theme--is it okay to use the Five Secrets just to get someone to stop complaining, especially if you're angry with that person and they tend to complain most or all of the time? Do you always have to use the Five Secrets in a totally sincere manner? I want to thank Dr. Levitt for joining us in this inspiring and illuminating podcast. Whenever Jill teaches, the heavens open up, and this podcast is no exception. Jill is simply a fabulous therapist, teacher, and human being! Click here if you are interested in some online training with Jill! David and Rhonda