Talk About Talk - Communication Skills Training

What if using AI could make you a better communicator without making you sound like a robot? In this episode, executive communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki sits down with AI strategist Jonathan Mast to reveal a 4-step framework that helps leaders use AI effectively without losing their voice or their edge. From writing difficult emails to brainstorming, summarizing data, or prepping keynotes, Jonathan’s framework empowers you to collaborate with AI like a pro. You’ll learn how to prompt like a strategist, refine your outputs, and lead by example in this new era of communication technology. Copy & Paste Jonathan’s AI Perfect Prompting framework: Focus on [insert area of expertise] and [insert second area of expertise]. I’m a [insert your role or job] working on [insert project or goal]. My question for you is: [insert your question]? First, ask me any clarifying questions you need to optimize your output. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 💻Website: TalkAboutTalk.com 💼LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ 💼LinkedIn – Talk About Talk: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ 📣Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣Podcast – Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢Podcast – Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 CONNECT WITH JONATHAN 💻Website: https://whitebeardstrategies.com 💼LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jonathanjmast 📺YouTube: youtube.com/@jonathanmast_withai 📱Instagram: instagram.com/jonathanmast MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell: https://amzn.to/45atGkM 16Personalities (Myers-Briggs assessment): https://www.16personalities.com/ TRANSCRIPTION Jonathan Mast: Now is not a time to punt this to somebody else. It’s time for you to embrace what you wanted to do upfront and change people’s lives by leveraging AI to amplify your skill and experience.  Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk: What do you do when everyone around you is suddenly talking about AI? Like it’s magic? Here’s what you do. You slow down, you ask better questions, and ideally, you call on someone like Jonathan Mast. Here’s What You’ll Learn Jonathan’s been leading conversations around digital strategy and AI long before the headlines caught up. He doesn’t deal in hype. He helps leaders understand how to actually use AI without losing trust, authority, or human connection. In this episode, you’ll learn why tone, clarity, and credibility matter even more in this age of AI. How to avoid sounding like a robot. Yes. Even when you’re using one, and you’re gonna learn the exact playbook that smart communicators. Yes, like me, are running right now to stay ahead without selling out.  Let’s do this. Let’s Talk about Talk in case we haven’t met yet. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where we coach ambitious executives to stand out with confidence and credibility. I also write a newsletter where I share my coaching tips. You can subscribe to this newsletter by clicking on the link in the episode description. About Jonathan Mast Alright, let me introduce Jonathan Mast. Jonathan stands at the forefront of AI prompting mastery. Empowering us to leverage artificial intelligence for measurable growth. Jonathan has emerged as a leading authority on practical AI implementation with an engaged audience of nearly half a million AI enthusiasts and entrepreneurs. His perfect prompting framework, which you’re about to learn, teaches businesses how to effectively communicate with AI prompts through ChatGPT Claude and Gemini to achieve exceptional results. As the founder of White Beard Strategies, Jonathan focuses on helping executives and businesses leverage AI to save time, increase profits, improve their communication, and deliver more value to their business. His philosophy emphasizes AI as a tool that amplifies our skill and our experience, rather than replacing human creativity and judgment. His international speaking engagements across North America, Asia, and Australia are packed with practical takeaways. And now. We have him here. Let’s do this.  Thank you so much, Jonathan, for being here today to talk to me and the Talk about Talk listeners about how to use AI to improve our communication. JM: I’m excited to be here. I think it’s a tremendous tool and I’m sure we’ll get into some interesting discussions.  How Executives Are Using AI Right Now AW: Me too. Me too. So let’s start really broad. We all know that AI is big in the news, and it’s big at work. It’s big with everything we’re doing these days. Can you share with us some ways that executives, in particular, are using AI to improve their communication? I realize this is a very broad question, but I thought we’d start broad.  JM: It’s a good thing, and I think there’s probably two or three key ways that I’m seeing that is really working, especially for executives. First is as executives, I’ve never yet met an executive who like SOPs, we all understand they’re important, but we hate them because it means we need to take time to get the stuff that’s up here or the thoughts, and at least in a lot of cases, maybe even add more than what’s up here. Because we’ve got ideas worth 30,000, 50,000 feet, but coming back into 500 feet for our staff, it’s painful. And ChatGPT and I I’ll use ChatGPT to say AI. I mean, it’s really any AI model can literally take and within a couple of minutes, grab the information that’s in our heads. Not literally, I mean, we have to share it, but you can get that information, and it can then create literally step-by-step SOPs for our team. And what I found and what so many of my students have found, especially the executives, is that we have these great ideas, but we’re often, and I’m gonna say it myself, we’re almost scared to go to that 500-foot view because we’re really good at 30 to 50,000 feet. We’re not so good when we get down below because a lot of us don’t do well with some of that minutia. Some do, but a lot of us don’t. And so,we do better with vision and things like that, and ChatGPT is just amazing at increasing that communication and helping. The other part that I find is real important as executives, it always seems we’re the ones that are tasked with the difficult emails. The ones that are really important, whether it be from a legal perspective or a compliance perspective, or whatever we’re dealing with, sometimes just to make sure that we don’t tick off the customer while we tell them where they need to go, and that can be difficult. And AI, again, does such a tremendous job of that because I can get an email from you, Andrea, and I can say, all right, I need to set these boundaries. I need to do this, and I need to be nice about it, and I don’t have to be nice. AI will do that for me, and then I can just edit it. And that really difficult email that I probably put off for three days, while my assistant was like, Jonathan, you gotta do that email. You gotta do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’m not, ’cause I’m really not sure what to say. I can now get done in just moments with AI. So those are two areas that I think are really impactful for executives in particular.  AW: Amazing. So SOPs and difficult emails. So as you were describing this, I was thinking pretty much all of us have been using AI even before it was really on our radar in terms of, you know, using it as a thesaurus and for grammar check and spell check and all of those things. And now it seems like everyone that I know is using it for brainstorming, and many people are using it for writing, but I think there’s a huge range in terms of the adoption. What would you say is pretty typical right now? Can you share with us any statistics or observations, or trends that you’ve noticed in terms of adoption? JM: So the most recent statistics I saw, and of course stats, as we know can lie, and they can be made to say anything we want, but we’re indicating people that what they called regular users of AI, and they define that as using it on a daily basis. What they didn’t do is define whether that was one prompt a day or whether that was a hundred prompts a day. But the numbers that I saw on that were just shy of 18% of businesses are regular users. Given how broad that is, that means to me that most people still are not using AI effectively. Most executives are not using AI effectively, and certainly, our teams are probably not using AI effectively, and that presents a massive opportunity for us because of how the time savings and the value add that can come when AI is leveraged properly. AW: Yeah, so I did not look at the statistics before I opened up this interview. I am shocked that it’s so low. So I’ve been using by that standard AI for over a year. I remember I bought a subscription to ChatGPT, and I put it as like when I open my browser, that’s what it goes to, ’cause that’s gonna prompt remind me to use it. I’m looking at my screen right now, and I can see it in the corner of my screen. And then I just had a lot of fun, and I even on LinkedIn, I would see examples of prompts that people are using, and I would try it, and I’d be amazed at what it could do. And I started experimenting. So.  The Biggest Opportunities Most People Miss So, maybe you can share with us what some of the other low-hanging fruit is. So if you’re one of the, you’re not included in the 18%, right? So you’re in the majority, you’re not using it, or you’re not using it regularly. What’s the low-hanging fruit in addition to the SOPs, the standard operating procedures, and the difficult emails? I love that point. Make that email that you thought was so difficult to write a lot easier with AI. What’s some of the other low-hanging fruit, in particularly in a business context?  JM: Well, you mentioned brainstorming. I think that’s one that AI does a tremendous job at, and not enough executives are using it for. You know, sometimes it’s difficult because either we don’t have the people around us to talk to, or sometimes we’re just not comfortable sharing some of our thoughts, because let’s face it, sometimes we want to nuke everything, and that’s probably not what we should be doing. AI gives us essentially a safe place to go do that and to have those conversations, and it’s really effective. So I think that’s one. The other area that I think how I recommend people get started, and especially executives, is take a book like Dan Martel’s, Buy Back Your Time. One of the things Dan talks about in the book is go through your day and literally for every 15 minutes, just write a one to two words about what you were doing. Do that for every day of the week, but at the end of every day by yourself, or sit down with your assistant and highlight everything that energized you that made you go. Yeah, man, I love that highlighted in green. Everything that made you go, I wish my assistant didn’t even have to deal with this. Take a pink highlighter. I’d say red, but they don’t really have any that I’ve seen. And take a pink highlighter and highlight that pink. Then use AI to help you get rid of all the pink stuff, or to help you leverage all the pink stuff. Every person I know, executive or not, has got items that they, we just do because we’re in the habit of them, or we somehow are in the, even though we know better, it’s just, it’s easier if we do it. We know that’s not the case, but we get stuck in that. Take those pink items and start there. Those are things we don’t wanna be doing anyway. That means we’re probably not doing a very good job, and if we are doing, we’re procrastinating. And that means as an executive, we’re wasting really valuable resources, telling our assistants, I’ll get to it tomorrow. I’ll get to it tomorrow. I’m guilty. I’m not pointing any fingers. I’m guilty of that. My assistant will say, Jonathan, what about this? I’ll get to it tomorrow. She’s now learned that when I have difficult emails to write, guess what? We have a custom GPT that’s trained on Jonathan’s tone and style. She writes it, and she sends it to me, and she’s like, can we just send it this way? Guess what? That’s easy. That’s. I like easy. We do the same thing for a lot of the other things that I need to do. One of the things that I need to do, a lot of executives need to do, we need to review reports. Most of us don’t exactly get that’s not, that’s not our jam. That’s not what gets us all excited. But imagine being able to take those reports or have our admin take those reports and literally have ChatGPT in a predefined way analyze that and give us a summary. And now I can get that. Every Friday, for example, I get a report from my team, and it’s done in audio format. It’s all created by AI. And when I do my 45-minute walk in the morning, guess what? I listen to the report. What that means is one, I’m walking anyway, so I need something to do. In other words, just walking ’cause my ADD kicks in and I can’t just walk. Two, I actually get to review data that I might not otherwise review on a regular basis, ’cause the report would come through and maybe I’m the only one, but sometimes those reports didn’t get read. Sometimes those emails would get archived. I’ll get to it later if I need it. Now I’m getting them in a way that’s digestible. It’s easy. We tweak it so it fits my tone, what I wanna listen, the key points that I want information on, and then if I’ve got questions, it’s really easy. I can ask my team, Hey, help clarify this, or what happened here? What’s going on? We had a 20% drop. Doesn’t seem like we should have. Are you sure that’s right? All those things are really quick follow-ups. And we’re getting ’em done faster as opposed to delaying them and missing them, and possibly if there is a problem causing more damage, ’cause we missed something. AW: Okay. So, to your point about people not reading the reports, this is an aside, but I have to tell you, I know they don’t. ‘Cause I remember years ago I wrote a detailed summary of a day-long meeting that we had at an offsite, and I asked everyone to read it, and embedded in the document I wrote, if you’re reading this, email me now, and I’m gonna take you out for a very fancy lunch. No one emailed me.  JM: I was gonna say no. You didn’t buy any lunches, did you ?  AW: No. I bought zero lunches. Fascinating. So I love that. How to Use AI for High-Stakes Presentations I wanna get real here for a minute. Imagine that you are a senior executive, or you’re coaching a senior executive on how to create and then deliver a really important presentation. So it could be your annual general meeting report to shareholders. It’s a big presentation. Maybe it’s a keynote, right? Related to your thought leadership. How can you use AI along the way to help you optimize your preparation and your delivery for this high-stakes presentation?  JM: If you’re an executive, the first thing I recommend you do with AI after you play with it once or twice is go, and you’ve probably got multiple personality tests you’ve taken. If not, go up to 16 personalities. Take their Myers-Briggs assessment and take the personality test, takes you 10 to 15 minutes. One. If you haven’t done it, I’ll be shocked, but if you haven’t, the insights will be amazing. Take that and give that to. ChatGPT or whatever model you’ve got, because we need to first train the model on who we are, our tone, and our style. And this fits directly in with your question because if I’m preparing an important presentation, it need to know who I am and how I would say things. Because if I just let AI do it, it might sound like AI and not sound like Jonathan, and that’s not good for my brand or anything else. So step one, train it on how you sound, it’s as easy as I said, giving us some personality results.  Secondarily, make sure you talk about the audience that you’re presenting to and what’s gonna be important to them. Generally, the good news is we tend to know both of those things. We tend to know going in, here’s my audience, here’s what I am. Then explain what you’re trying to do very simply, and probably the most important part when you’re explaining it. End your prompt, which is what we call it when you’re asking ChatGPT what to do. End it with this question. Ask me any questions you have. In other words, you’re literally going to be asking the AI to now interview you, to ask you the questions it needs in order to gather the information to answer your question. When you do that, your life gets easier because you’re already running at a million miles an hour. You don’t want to have to pause and think through it. Now, you literally, and I do this a lot of times when I’m walking using the voice mode, I literally say, ask me any questions you’ve got, and it will then I’ll hear it through my headset, and it’ll go, okay, tell me about this. I’ll respond, ask me another question, respond. Now I’m taking that downtime, so to speak, my walk time, turning that into something productive, and I’m giving real, relevant information to the AI model so that it can put that together. Keep in mind it’s been trained on the best presentation techniques, the best ways to reach your audience. It knows a lot of their pain points already. Now I can help you put together that the other part and the last part have it start by creating an outline first, and then filling out the outline as multiple prompts, multiple questions. Don’t expect it to be a slot machine where you’re gonna pull the handle once you’re gonna give it one prompt, and you’re gonna get the perfect keynote. It won’t happen. You need to do it step by step, and when you do that, you can take that prep time. That was again the thing, you were dreading the thing you were trying to figure out how to get done before you got home tonight, and you can have it done in maybe an hour or two instead of hours or days. AW: I love your slot machine metaphor. That’s beautiful because I think that’s how people, a lot of people think about it. There’s these lists that we see as lead magnets all over the internet. Click here, give me your email address, and I’ll send you 50 AI prompts or a hundred AI prompts. And it’s like, I just need to find the right prompt and it’ll solve all of my problems. The Perfect Prompting Framework (That Actually Works) So this, Jonathan, is actually why I invited you to be on this podcast, because I was listening to you and you said, forget the AI prompts. I have a framewor,k and I was like, what? So you don’t know this about me, but I am not a fan of memorized or rehearsed anything. Self-introductions, anything. It’s all about having a free yeah, high five, high five. It’s all about having a framework that you customize. I would love it if you shared with the audience your prompting framework, which I’m just gonna say I started using literally the same day that I heard you say it. And it is magical.  JM: Well, thank you. First of all, like you, I don’t like memorizing things; it’s just not how my brain functions. I can memorize frameworks though, because they make sense to me, because it’s a recipe that I can follow and..  AW: And you can customize it, right? Sorry to interrupt you, but you can  JM: Exactly. No, you’re, you’re absolutely right. I don’t, I’m not tied in. I like probably most executives, I don’t like you to tell me what I can’t do. Well, this is about you can do not what you can’t do, and therefore it works. Four simple steps. The first is tell the AI model. Doesn’t matter what one you’re using, what type of expert it is. So let’s just say, hypothetically, that we’re gonna write a press release. I’m gonna start off by telling it you are an expert at writing press releases. Not very complicated, but as you can imagine, I’ve now narrowed that scope right down to where I need to go. Step number two: give it background information. Andrea, if you and I are working on a press release together and you are the expert, and I walk up to your desk and I go, Hey Andrea, I need a press release. And you go, great, I can do that. Then I turn around and walk away, and you go, but I got a couple questions, and I don’t give you any context. What’s the likelihood that press release is gonna be relevant? It’s not. No matter how brilliant you are, if I don’t give you the context. ’cause my wife reminds me she can’t read my brain. Neither can AI, and you need to give it context. Now that doesn’t have to be a lot, but give it the context you have. Then step three, this is what normally we just prompt with. So we told that the expert, we gave it context. Now we ask it our question. That’s where most people start and stop. But we’ve got one more really important step, and if you only remember this one, just ask your question. Do step four. In other words, steps three and four, the two most important. Step four is you end your prompt with this simple statement. Ask me any questions you have. That’s it. Because see, the AI is not sentient and it, we can’t read our minds, but it has been trained on the proper format and framework on how to do about everything, and that includes press releases or anything else. So when it reads through its framework and goes, Jonathan doesn’t know a framework ’cause he doesn’t know how to write press releases, but he missed these four things. And when I say, ask me any questions you have, it will then do so. If I don’t add that though, it’s been taught to make assumptions, and it will just fill in the blanks assuming the data that it thinks is correct. And we all know what happens when we assume we resemble the southbound end of a northbound mule. So AI does the same thing.  AW: Oh, I’m just saying this again. I really wanna underscore to the listeners that it’s magical. So, for example. Immediately after you shared this. I’m trying to think of maybe what I used it for. Maybe I was asking it to edit an article that I’d written for Ink Magazine. So I would say use your business and communication skills expertise. I actually found that if you give it two different types of expertise, I think it kind of levels up. It’s like a multiplier. And then I gave it the background. I’ve written this article. I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I say to it, I am going to upload a draft, who the target market is. I give it all the information. Here’s the word length I want, here are my three main points that I wanna make, blah, blah, blah. And then I say, before I upload the draft. What clarifying questions do you have that will optimize your response to me? And the other thing that I would always add is I would specify, because I’ve noticed a couple times when I didn’t specify that the AI would give me a list when I wanted a paragraph or vice versa. It would give me a paragraph when I wanted a list.  JM: And that can be a fifth part of it, if you want, as to how you want it to respond to you, give it the format. Absolutely.  AW: Okay, so if there’s one takeaway, you know, I think it’s the framework generally, and then specifically your question about clarifying questions. Do you have that will optimize the output? What, I mean, this framework might help answer this question, but what are some of the most common mistakes that people make when they’re using AI? JM: The first one’s probably gonna surprise people. They overcomplicate it. AI is not as complicated as we wanna think it is. It can be, but there’s no reason to overcomplicate it. So even with the perfect prompt framework we just went over, that’s by the way, what I call that four steps. If you go through that and you spend too much time overthinking, wow. What type of expert should it be? I’m really not sure. I want to pick the right one. Just get close. You don’t have, I loved what you said. You’re an expert at these two things. Okay, great. And they can be anything that you want. Then don’t overcomplicate it. The other thing, and we talked briefly about this, is many, many people treat AI like a slot machine, and they assume it’s one question, one answer, one question. No. It’s a conversation. Just as you and I would have a conversation if we were collaborating on a project, AI is the same way. You’re gonna do something, you’re gonna get a response back that’s close. You’re gonna go, you know what? I forgot to tell you this. I forgot to tell you I wanted a paragraph and not as a table. Don’t start over, just have a conversation and go to the next step or go, well, that’s an interesting perspective. What would happen if we changed this variable and have a conversation? Many of my chats are 20 or 30 back-and-forth questions with AI as we get to that point to refine. Now, at some points we get there and I’m like, never mind. You’re just not understanding me. And like any relationship that happens occasionally. And then the good news is that nobody ever gets mad when I say that and I just start over. But that happens only occasionally, like you said. So the two biggest, again, overcomplicating and treating AI, like it’s a one question, one answer. We’re hoping to hit the jackpot. Both of those, I think, are the two mistakes.  AW: It’s like an iterative tool, like your analogy of two partners working together to solve a problem, right? And they’re. Building on each other, other’s ideas? So recently, I’m gonna say in the last couple months, I’ve noticed in the output that I’m getting from ChatGPT, there are some common kind of markers. There’s often a solid line if I ask for a list. So if I’m creating a podcast where I’m writing an article or something, I will independently brainstorm what I think should be there. And then I wanna make sure I’m not missing anything obvious. So I will separately ask ChatGPT, give me a list of 10 things that qualify here, and then I just usually I go, yeah, I’ve got that. I got that. Okay, I’m fine. Right? That’s kind of probably the most common thing that I use it for, but I’ve noticed when I ask it for these lists that there’s these solid lines that are just bizarre that. And then I noticed the rocket emoji, and then I saw people. I noticed a woman that I work with who I respect very much. Obviously, she’s using ChatGPT, ’cause a lot of her work has the rocket ship emoji in it. And then I started reading on LinkedIn. I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. I started reading people’s posts saying, you know what’s with all the rocket ship emojis? Stop using them. And if you’re gonna use ChatGPT or other AI, at least edit out the markers. And then the most recent one is the em dash. So,  I actually asked my ChatGPT to stop putting those solid lines to stop using the rocket ship to stop using the em dash. It’s not very obedient. It keeps using them. And then I will actually say, I asked you to stop doing that, and it says, Oh, sorry, thank you for the reminder.  JM: I’m glad I’m not the only one. Yes, you’re absolutely correct in that it is not perfect. I will give you a hint in order to do have it do a better job of doing that. Begin or end your prompt because it’s important where you put that and start with, and it sounds really weird, they’re called delimiters, and this is gonna sound over complicated, but it will help three quotes in a row and then a square bracket. Whatever do not do is closed, square bracket, and three more quotes. It’s like taking a yellow highlighter to that section of your prompt and saying, don’t forget this. Not perfect. I have a 17-year-old, and it’s like a 17-year-old who goes, I forgot that was highlighted. It won’t be perfect, but it will help out with that. The other hint, that can be hugely valuable when you copy and paste out of Chat GPT, and yes, I do it too, and then I often edit afterwards. When you’re pasting it wherever you’re going, instead of doing a command V or what control V, do a command shift V or control shift V, and it will paste without the formatting. And a lot of times it’s faster to just to go back in and add a quick heading in, and it will remove those lines that now we’ll still keep the em dashes or the en dashes. You’ll still have those, but it’ll get rid of all the emojis. It’ll get rid of all the extra lines, and then you just simply need to go and tell it find the em dashes. Em dashes are weird in that if my wife was trained as a journalist and so she’s like, I’ve been using em dashes forever.  AW: Me too. I love them. My agency was like, we love them. I said, you need to stop.  JM: Yeah. Now all of a sudden people get angry ’cause they’re like, you used an em dash. And I’m like, well, that was actually proper. Well, yes, but that means you used ChatGPT. Well, no, I actually been using those for most of my career. Now all of a sudde,n that’s a hot button for those people that decide to care.  AW: It’s such a shame. The em dash is a beautiful thing. I’m fine with losing the solid lines. I’m fine with losing the rocket ship emoji. Are there any other markers, Jonathan, that you’ve noticed recently?  JM: There are a number of what they call non-space markers, and it’s kind of like. People are like, Oh, this is some sinister conspiracy theory. No, if you’ve ever copied from Microsoft Word to another thing, you’ve gotten weird characters somewhere because of the formatting. They’re simply formatting characters that are used in markdown, which is the language that AI tools write in. It’s not a big deal, but again, that’s another thing where you’re command shift or control shift V will remove those non-space characters. And when they say non-space characters, it literally means it’s a character in the code that doesn’t show up when you paste it anywhere. So that’s a good way to get rid of that.  AW: So I wanna ask you at this point, if you had kinda one other than your brilliant framework. Okay, ’cause that brilliant framework is probably your answer to this question. Other than that, is there one thing that you want people to know about AI? It could be a misperception or something that’s way easier than they thought. Like if there’s one thing that you could share with the audience that will inspire them and help them use AI really productively in their jobs.  JM: I  believe AI is like electricity. And when I say that, I mean that AI is on the path to become so ubiquitous in our lives that we’re not even realizing we’re using it when it comes to so many other things in life. We think about them, but we don’t think about the electricity until we lose it. Then all of a sudden we realize everything that we were using it for, and pretty much for most of us, it’s not like we wake up and we decide to use electricity. We’re just using it by living by everything that we do, by everything that’s on in our residences and everything else, and AI’s headed down that path and why I wanna share that, especially for executives. I believe it’s fundamentally your responsibility to your business and to your team to teach them how to use it in a way that provides value to the organization and to your clients. Because if you don’t, your competition will. It’s not a matter of if, it’s only a matter of when, because it didn’t take very long for the world to go electricity rocks, and everybody started using it. AI is gonna be even faster, and the time is now. It’s not too late, but the time is now to start leveraging it as a tool.  The example I always give, and it’s probably not perfect for your audience, but if you could just imagine you’re a roofer for just a moment. If you are putting shingles on a roof, you don’t wanna do it the old-fashioned way and carry up a bucket of nails and carry up a hammer and one by one, knock those in. It takes too much time. Instead, you wanna be up there with a pneumatic hammer that literally every time you tap it to the roof, it puts a nail in because it’s much faster. And nobody in their right mind would not use a pneumatic hammer just because they weren’t familiar with it, and they liked their hammer because it wouldn’t be productive yet. That’s the same thing that so many of us are telling ourselves. Well, I’m just not ready for it, or I’m just not. It’s time. It’s here. It doesn’t, it’s not scary, it’s not sentient, it’s not gonna take over the world. We can still unplug it, but it’s time to embrace it.  Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: Jonathan, I have to say I love your metaphors. I lost track of how many amazing metaphors you’ve used. All right. I’m gonna move on now to asking you the three rapid-fire questions that I ask every guest. I know you’re gonna be familiar with the first one based on your comment about Myers-Briggs. The question is, are you an introvert or an extrovert, and how does that affect your communication?  JM: I am both depending on the situation. I am an ENTP, and I am very comfortable acting as an extrovert, but I need time to recharg,e and most of that time is spent on my own. AW: So you may be an ambivert.  JM: Yeah. Might be. I’m not familiar with that term. Yes.  AW: Yes. Most people are actually in the middle. And it’s ambivert. I’m an ENTJ. So we’re close. Second question. What are your communication pet peeves?  JM: So my biggest one is it’s never been worse. I hear people say that all the time to make a point. I’m a student of history. I’ve studied a lot. Everything we’re experiencing today, we’ve experienced before; how we’re experiencing the manner in which, you know, AI is brand new. We’ve not gone through AI before, but we’ve had the printing press, we’ve had the steam engine, we’ve had the internal combustion engine, we’ve had the internet, we’ve had PCs. We’ve went through tectonic technological shifts before, and all the naysayers were wrong, and everybody who. Embraced it came out on the far end smelling like a rose because they found new opportunities, and that’s definitely the one that just drives me crazy. It’s never been worse.  AW: So the extremely negative, the superlative that’s negative, especially related to AI.  JM: Related to anything. I mean, whether it’s the news that’s going off or it’s AI, I mean, I, again, I hear it fairly frequently, and it’s just one of those things I just want to scream and go, No, it’s not true. What about, you know, we didn’t live in the and in during the Black Plague. It could have been worse, trust me.  AW: Okay, let’s go to question number three. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending to people lately?  JM: Uh, there’s a book that I recommend regularly because I do think it appeals to starting to use AI, and I think we talked about it earlier, and that was Dan Martel’s Buyback Your Time, especially as an executive, and I think most of us know this, but sometimes we have to be reminded. There are things we don’t need to do in our lives because we can pay people to do them, and it’s more productive. It’s not a bad thing. I grew up in an environment where you were trained, you always did everything yourself. That’s the way it was, and I had a hard time learning that some executives didn’t. Some do, but if you’re in that understanding, how to buy back your time is so incredibly important.  AW: Jonathan, I listened to that book last summer, and I had the same reaction. This is gold. It’s absolutely gold. So, Jonathan, do you have anything else that you wanna leave the audience with in terms of suggestions, tips, or advice in their adoption of and use of AI? JM: Well, I just wanna encourage everybody as leaders, which I think almost all of us in the audience would identify with. We have a responsibility of those that we lead. And I wanna encourage you to not just on the surface, go, okay, this AI thing is something I’ll have somebody else do. It is a way to absolutely amplify your skill and experience. And most of us became leaders because we wanted to do good in the world. We wanted to add value, we wanted to change things. If that’s you, I just wanna encourage you that I believe that AI, I’m 56, just for relevancy. It is the single biggest tech to technological shift that we’ve seen in the last 50 to a hundred years, maybe ever in history. And now is not a time to punt this to somebody else. It’s time for you to embrace what you wanted to do upfront and change people’s lives by leveraging AI to amplify your skill and experience.  AW: I love it. Leaders are role models. People are watching you. People will adopt the habits that you adopt. So leaders have a responsibility to model their use of AI and to adopt it. And there is no better time than today. Thank you very much for sharing your time and your expertise with me and the Talk About Talk listeners. Thank you, Jonathan.  JM: Thank you, and pleasure. Post-Interview Recap AW: I hope you’re feeling as inspired as I am now about using AI, and I’m thinking I’m gonna diverge from my usual practice of sharing three key learnings with you. For this episode only, I have one key learning that I promise will make a huge difference in your productivity. It’s this.  Copy and paste Jonathan’s perfect prompting framework, which you can find in the show notes. Paste it somewhere where you can easily access it. I pasted it to the top of my to-do list. Then you can easily copy and paste it right into AI whenever you have an AI query. As a reminder, Jonathan’s perfect prompting framework has four points:  One, tell the AI what specific area of expertise you want it to focus on. Maybe economics or social media, or something else. Two, provide context who you are, what you need, and relevant details. Three, ask the question; four, then ask AI to ask you any questions that will help it to optimize its output. And that’s it . Again, you can simply copy this AI prompting framework directly from the show notes in this episode. Now, if you wanna go to the next level, you can add two more points to the framework. These are two points that I find very helpful. Think of them as bonus points. The first is to tell the AI what kind of output you’re looking for. It might be a list, an email draft, a matrix, an image. Whatever, tell it exactly what format you’re looking for. The second one is to remind it what you don’t want. For me I do not want em dashes, and I do not want rocket ship emojis. Otherwise, I find that if I don’t constantly remind ChatGPT, what I don’t want, it keeps forgetting. I really hope this prompting framework helps you as much as it’s helped me. If you know anyone who might find this episode helpful, please share, and please subscribe to the Talk About Talk podcast if you’re not already. Thanks again so much to Jonathan for sharing his framework and all of his insights with us, and thank you for listening to talk about Talk. Talk soon. The post AI Prompting Secrets You’ve Never Heard | Jonathan Mast (ep.193) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Think networking means being transactional or self-promotional? Think again. Shelly Lombard, former Wall Street analyst and founder of Schmooze, shares her playbook for building a strategic network without feeling fake. You’ll learn how to reconnect with weak ties, build visibility on LinkedIn, and follow up in a way that feels natural, not awkward. Ready to speak up, stand out, and lead with gravitas? Join my 6-week Women’s Personal Branding Masterclass, starting Oct 15. Register by Aug. 15 and save $250 with code EARLYBIRDFALL at TalkAboutTalk.com. CONNECT WITH ANDREA  Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ LinkedIn – Talk About Talk: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ Podcast – Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 Podcast – Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 CONNECT WITH SHELLY Website: https://schmooze.biz/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shellylombard/ Newsletter: Schmooze https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/schmooze-7018971677694840833/ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE The Lost Art of Connecting by Susan McPherson: https://amzn.to/46d84X1 F*ck Being Humble by Stefanie Sword-Williams: https://amzn.to/46O8kfa TRANSCRIPTION  Shelly Lombard: Reach out to those weak ties. Say every week, three people, somebody I worked with 10 years ago, I’m just gonna ping them. Hey, thought of you. That kind of thing. It’s only transactional when you’re not keeping in touch with people.  Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk: If you think networking is just schmoozing at cocktail parties or collecting LinkedIn connections, you’re gonna wanna hear what my guest has to say. Shelly Lombard spent 30 years on Wall Street making high-stakes investment calls and building a career that, frankly, most people would envy. However, by her own admission, she did some things wrong. Here’s What You’ll Learn In this conversation that you’re about to hear, Shelly opens up about the missed relationships that could have completely changed the trajectory of her career and how she finally learned to stop believing that just doing the good work would earn her a seat at the table. If you’ve ever hesitated to reach out or worried about bothering someone, then this episode will change the way you think. You’re gonna get practical tips to grow your network without feeling pushy or fake or self-promotional, and you’ll walk away knowing exactly what you need to do to build real relationships that open real doors. If this is your first time here, I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. This is Talk about Talk, where I coach ambitious executives like you to communicate with confidence and credibility. I also write an email newsletter that you can subscribe to at the link below if you’re on YouTube. Or in the show notes if you’re listening on any other podcast platform.  So now, without further ado, let me introduce Shelly Lombard, and then we’ll jump right into our conversation. And at the end, as always, I’m gonna summarize with three key learnings that I wanna reinforce with you. Introducing Shelly Lombard I met Shelly Lombard on LinkedIn, believe it or not—and let me tell you, Shelly is a force for good. She worked on Wall Street for over three decades, and early in her career, she was one of only a handful of women specializing in investing in distressed companies. In the early 2000s, she became one of the most quoted automotive analysts on Wall Street, frequently appearing in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and CNBC. After her Wall Street career, she began serving on corporate boards, including the board of Bed Bath & Beyond, among others. Shelly recently launched Schmooze, an initiative that supports and encourages professional women to build strong business networks and close the gap between where they are in their careers—and where they want to be, whether that’s a board seat, the C-suite, or a career pivot. Schmooze offers mini masterclasses in networking—and yes, I’ve personally led one of them. Let me tell you, Shelly has created something really special. She also hosts Schmooze events that serve as an alternative to the golf outings and sporting events that men have traditionally used to build business relationships. Thank you so much, Shelly, for being here today to talk with me and the Talk about Talk listeners about networking. SL:  I am thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me.  AW: I’m so excited about having the opportunity to talk to you in person. It’s virtual, but we’re one-on-one here. I really admire what you’re doing on LinkedIn. Before I pressed record, I was sharing with Shelly how much I enjoy reading her posts on LinkedIn. She shows personality, and you can tell that what she’s doing brings her joy, and then it, in turn, brings the rest of us joy. In fact, last night I read one of her posts to my teenage daughter, and I made her laugh. Shelly, thank you for making LinkedIn a better place.  SL: Yeah, and teenagers are tough too, so she, yeah, I’m impressed because she laughed. That made me feel good, ’cause teenagers are tough. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.  AW: Toughest critics. Toughest critics. Yeah. Okay, so I just read your introduction, but I want to ask you, after spending over three decades in Wall Street. How did networking specifically help you succeed in such a competitive, intense environment?  The Missed Opportunities That Sparked a Mission SL: Yeah, so you know what? What I will say is that I was not as successful as I could have been. I was not intentional about networking. I wasn’t strategic about it. I could have been much more successful if I was. I had a good run, but I would’ve been more successful. My career would’ve gone maybe in different directions, et cetera. I approached networking. I was very happenstance, half ass, oh, I like you. Let’s have lunch. But there was no really, oh, let me think through. I probably should get to know this person. I did belong to a small group of women. At that time, there were only a handful of women doing what I was doing on Wall Street. Women on Wall Street were there. There weren’t as many of us. But what I was doing, which was investing in distressed companies, there were even fewer. So we formed a little group and we would get together for dinner, every other month or something like that. But that was about the extent of it. And I think one reason I wasn’t more intentional is that I’m an introvert. People don’t believe that, but I am definitely an introvert, and I’m shy. So that’s different from being an introvert. I’m an introvert, and I’m shy. And then the second reason is I didn’t know any better. Like my parents were teachers, and it was expected that you would go to college and then get a good job, and then, hopefully, stay there for your entire career. But nobody told me anything about networking or forming relationships. They didn’t know that wasn’t their world, and I didn’t figure it out on my own. So I felt like I missed out on opportunities that I didn’t even know I was missing. I’ll tell you a quick story. Two guys I should have kept in touch with, and a lot of the people I worked with over three decades did really well on Wall Street, and I didn’t really; I wasn’t strategic enough to stay in touch with any of them. One was a guy named Chad, our bank merged with another bank. He was my boss’s boss. Great guy. And he, as part of the merger, lost his job. Great guy. He landed on his feet somewhere else. I should have kept in touch with him, but I didn’t. Another guy who after the merger, replaced this guy, Chad, his name was Jimmy. And Jimmy was my boss’s boss. Like he was way up there. And so when the two banks merged. They had a meeting for everybody who was vice president and above, and I think I might’ve been the only person of color in the room, certainly the only woman of color in the room. But as a result, Jimmy knew me, and this was years ago. I’m sure it would be different these days, maybe not so much different. But as a result, the good thing was Jimmy knew who I was, so I would get on the elevator and he might be on there already, be like, Shelly, hey. And then he liked FaceTime. So he was one of those people who liked you to be at your desk for long hours on trading floors. People usually left six o’clock, but I might be there like seven o’clock, and he would walk around just to see who was still working. He liked that and he would always talk to me, Hey Shelly, how you doing? And I would just say, Hey, and go back to work. I never engaged with him. I never tried to develop a relationship. So like I said, I’m shy. I’m an introvert, and I just didn’t know any better, and I didn’t figure out it out on my own. And had he obviously was reaching out to me. Had I taken him up on that, I might still be sitting at, it’s now JP Morgan, but I might still be sitting there and it would’ve made a world of difference in my career. AW: So hindsight’s 2020. You identified Shelly the one thing that you did do right was you connected with some women and you had dinners with them, every second month, which is great. But would you say it’s true, maybe then that you started Schmooze because of some regrets that you had about how you managed your career, specifically in terms of networking? And if so, I see you nodding your hair, your head there. What gaps are you aiming to fill for women in business through Schmooze?  SL: Yeah. So you’re absolutely dead on, right? I started Schmooze to help other women avoid the mistakes that I made. And so a turning point for me was working from home. So, toward the latter part of my career, I worked for a small boutique that researched investments. And, fidelity was a client, Goldman Sachs was a client, and they let us work from home. And so working from home was great for my life and for managing my kids, and I didn’t have to commute into Manhattan, et cetera. But when I reared my head from that job, when that job ended right around the time of the financial crisis, a little bit after that, I realized I had let my contacts go dormant. Like people would call me and say, Hey, meet me in Manhattan for a drink. And I’m like, girl, I’m. Sitting in my pajamas, with a baseball cap on, and I’m getting ready to take my son to soccer. The second thing, inflection point was when I left Wall Street and I started serving on corporate boards, and once I did, I learned that 80% of corporate board rules are filled through relationships. One woman said to me, when somebody leaves, when one guy leaves a corporate board, the other guys in the room look around at each other and they go, okay, who do we know? And so if you are not known to them, if you don’t have a relationship with them, they obviously go to a guy in their network. So those things hit if I didn’t realize it before, those two things, working from home and corporate boards. hammer the point home.  So what I’m trying to do with schmooze is one, encourage women to do it and to understand how important it is. And also to give them tools. So helping them to learn what I call networking hacks, like curiosity. So one of the things that kept me from inviting Chad or Jimmy out for a drink or a cup of coffee was like, I’m like, okay, now I gotta talk to him. What do I talk to him about? And curiosity is a hack. I didn’t have to be charming. I didn’t have to be like knowledgeable. I  thought I had to be all these things to have a conversation with them if I had engaged with Jimmy over what about what the bank was doing, ’cause he was a real deal junkie. He loved deals and being a big bank and a big kahuna in the market. If I had started saying to him, Hey, so I hear we’re working on a deal for Procter and Gamble or something like that. What’s going on with that? He would’ve talked to me for hours. So I didn’t have to be smart. I didn’t have to come across as charming and knowledgeable about the market. Curiosity would’ve helped me to build a relationship with him, and we’ve actually had a schmooze class on networking internally and how you can use curiosity to build your internal network, and it would’ve made all the difference with Jimmy.  Making the Shift from Transactional to Intentional AW: I love that word, curiosity, because I think it’s very, instructive. It’s very actionable for people, ’cause we’ve all heard that if we wanna engage in a great conversation, we need to ask questions. But actually labeling that as curiosity, what can I be curious about with this person? I think that’s brilliant. So you’ve labeled, I guess now the first hack, and you spoke about your story about it being particularly difficult to network when you were working from home. Do you have any hacks for the listeners out there, including myself who want to network when they’re mostly working online at home?  SL: Yeah. So I think you have to be, it’s, it was great for, my life wasn’t so great for my network. Visibility on LinkedIn makes all the difference in the world. So really lean into those tech tools. People talk about being zoomed out and too much Zoom, et cetera. But that was one of my issues back when I was working from home, is that Zoom didn’t exist. LinkedIn was a baby. So using those tools like Zoom to have coffees, LinkedIn, one of the things I intended to talk about today, which I’ve learned really makes a difference in social media, has made it possible, is being visible. And so what I would say to people working from home is be intentional about it. I wasn’t so people I was running into, so when I worked at the place where I was working from home, we had a PR person. So we our revenue model was subscriptions. So other firms did trades, and they got commissions. Our firm was strictly subscription-based, so people like Goldman Sachs at Fidelity, and hedge funds had subscriptions. So we had a PR person who would get us. In the paper. And I would, I was always quoted in the New York Times, the journal, I covered the auto industry. I was quoted in the auto news. And so people knew who I was, but I never followed up. Like I never, kind of took advantage of that. And so what I would say is working from home visibility is an important thing, and whether that’s being visible inside your company or outside your company, I was visible, but I’m, I’m happy to talk later about following up and the importance of following up. SL: I left there, that company, and lots of people knew my name, but I hadn’t followed up and built relationships with any of them. So I think working from home, you need to be more intentional. About relationship building, and you also need to be more intentional about being visible both internally and externally. AW: Oh gosh. Even in those quick anecdotes that you shared and stories of regrets and things that you were doing well, things that were going on. There’s so many hacks to, I think in the conclusion here, I’m gonna be listing what the hacks are. So there’s networking inside your organization, and then also being conscious of networking inside and outside of your organization. There’s the point, I think, that was subtly made. By you here, or maybe implicitly made, which is when something happens, like a press release, or you attend an event that could become a catalyst for you to share on social media, right? So nowadays, if you were interviewed, you could show the video or a photo of it, or even just talk about it right on social media to reinforce. So use these little events or big events as a catalyst, a topic for you to share with your audience. I’m wondering, just to back up for a minute, do you think this is different? For women versus men, Shelly.  SL: Yeah. And remind me to talk more about visibility ’cause that’s another hack that I make sure I wanna talk about you. You started talking about it being visible, but yeah, absolutely. So I think it’s two things. With women, it’s a mindset. So we are trained to be good girls and pleasers, and we’re not comfortable being transactional because it implies that you’re not nice. I remember when I first started, so I got into this group before this group of women, who invested in distressed companies, existed. I remember being in a deal with another woman, and I reached out to her, Lisa, and I reached out to her and I said, Hey, you wanna have lunch? And then I felt Ooh, I felt like I didn’t want think that I wanted something. And so I remember saying, I just wanted to, I, I just thought, we should have lunch. And she was like, it’s okay. So I think women have a tougher time being transactional, and men don’t, they’ll take you to a Knicks game, they’ll take you to a golf game, and then they’re not. woo. If you reach out to them three months later, and hey, you know what I noticed, so and can you introduce me? I think also too, in terms of mindset, women think our work speaks for us, and it’s, it does not, your boss doesn’t always know what you’re doing. People in other companies that do what you do definitely don’t know what you’re doing. People outside your company definitely don’t know. So I think with women, it’s, we are afraid to be transactional and ask for stuff, and we’re also thinking, oh, my work speaks for itself. I think the other thing is time. So my sister has a thing, all roads lead to mom, all roads lead to mom. You are the emotional support person. You are the person who finds the summer camps very often. Maybe it’s different, in different, situations, different families. But I know in my family, my, my husband was involved. He would ferry people of soccer, et cetera. But I was a person who thought, oh, it’s time for Lindsay to get braces. Oh, you know what, Andrew needs to get his physical now so he can be ready for soccer in the fall. Yeah. Oh, Lindsay needs an SAT tutor. Yeah. I have never sat next to a man on a trading floor, and trading floors are open, so you don’t have an office and everybody’s, you can hear everybody’s conversation. I’ve never sat next to a man on a trading floor and heard him make a phone call about a birthday party. A clown, a pony? What time? What time does the bouncy house need to get there? Do I need extra insurance? That’s totally left to mom, and I had a little nanny at some point, but there’s certain things you can’t delegate. like finding a tutor or recognizing that the kid needs a tutor. So I didn’t have time to play golf, didn’t have time to get good enough at it to use it as a networking tool. So I think the two differences for women are mindset. And then also time, because when all roads lead to you, I think I read something a couple of years ago, it said, moms don’t do everything, but they make sure everything gets done. So even if it’s you saying to the babysitter, oh, can you do X, Y, and Z? A lot of times, that falls on us. And so I think women have to approach networking, be more intentional about it. It may not just happen. And I think we also have to be more intentional about how we think about it.  AW: Yeah. So when I asked the question at first, Shelly, I thought you were gonna say, yeah, because it is harder for women because there are fewer of us which, which is your experience, and I believe it is in many industries, still the same. And you didn’t even go near that. You’re talking about the transactional nature of men’s relationships with each other about how women are assuming that their hard work is gonna speak for itself. And then this all roads lead back to mom. So here’s the thing, if you’re aware of these things, then it can almost become a superpower because you can work to un to undo them or to at least mitigate their negative impact. I just wanna share in terms of this transactional relationship, that’s a different way of saying something that I had a conversation with, actually, a classmate of mine back when I was a student. And she was talking about how, she first introduced this concept to me. She said, at work, men are friendly and women are friends. And I was like, oh. And that’s a good thing and a bad thing, ’cause we should be friends. We should be thinking long term. Yeah. But also we shouldn’t be taking things so per, when we’re friends, we’re taking things personal. Men aren’t taking things personally. It is. And that fits beautifully, I think, with your transaction points. So I just wanted to highlight that.  SL: Yeah, that’s actually a great point. That’s a great point.  AW: Yeah, I love it too. It has so many implications, and if you don’t know what it means, if you haven’t thought about it that way, maybe it’s less relevant for you. But people right away, I find go, oh, and then suddenly you’ll see it everywhere. and the whole thing about women putting their head down and doing the work, and then not being recognized or compensated for it because they’re not speaking for their work. There’s this beautiful quote. You must speak for your work. Your work doesn’t speak for itself. And furthermore, if you’re a leader, it’s not just about you doing the work; it’s about getting the work done, which means you can delegate.  SL: Yeah. Two things I’d like to add to what you said is one, think about networking, not just networking with other women, but networking with men, and so I belong to a host of women’s groups, but I think that, look, most of the people on boards are men. So if I wanna get a corporate board seat, I gotta be one of the names that comes up when the men in the group say, okay, who do we know? ’cause we have a, we need an audit chair. And the other thing that I would say is that I think that we often think of relationships as being transactional because we are notaking the time to invest in people, in, in other words that it’s not just, and, I guess the thing is, or invest in ourselves and I’ll step back and make this point. Women in terms of feeling it’s transactional or it’s manipulative. That’s the word that I was looking for. So it’s transactional when you deal with someone else, but if you don’t let your work speak for itself and you’re speaking for it, you’re being manipulative. And what I say to people. It’s only manipulative if you’re not doing the work. You know what I mean? We resent the people who would try to get ahead on their smile alone. They’re charming, they manage up, and then they’re not really doing anything. They’re sleeping in their cubicle, or they’re talking on the phone, or whatever. But if you are doing the work, then it’s not, it’s not manipulative. And so you should. not feel like, oh, I gotta let my work speak for itself, because if you’re actually doing the work, take pride in speaking about it. And so those are the two things that you said that kind of made me think about you need to network with men and women. And two, speaking up for your work is not a bad thing. You’re not being manipulative. And when you’re actually doing the work,  AW: I heard a man quoted on the Tim Ferriss podcast, and he said. When you’re more junior in your career? I actually, this first part of it I added because I believe when you’re more junior in your career, there are people looking over your shoulder to see that you’re doing the work, and then you get promoted once you hit mid-career. This is, this was his point. If you don’t speak for your work, you might as well have not done it. Ooh, drop the mic.  SL: That’s a drop the mic drop. Yes. Because nobody knows. Absolutely. Nobody knows. That’s a great point.  AW: Yeah. I love that one. So it’s inspiring.  Why Visibility is the New Superpower Let’s go back to the visibility point, though. You were talking about how it’s about relationships, and it’s also about visibility. So do you have any other hacks for how, how do you personally, or how do you coach the folks that are part of Schmooze to boost their invisibility? It boosts their visibility, whether it be online again or in person.  SL: So I guess I learned along the way that visibility is a relationship hack. It’s a networking hack. It’s a networking multiplier. And so that’s a way that technology has made networking easier. And what I would say to people is, you need to be visible. Post on LinkedIn, and I’m gonna do a whole class on what to post on LinkedIn and tips for posting, and what to say, and all of that kind of stuff. But when you do that, you attract a network to you. So people who I don’t know will click and follow me. Click and ask to connect with me. And I don’t even need to reach out because you know my posting. And if you’re not posting, maybe you send professional updates to people who you know. So it’s just email. So instead of, oh, I’m not comfortable posting on LinkedIn, but I have 50 people that I work with or used to work with, that I’m just gonna send ’em an email, B, C, everybody. And hey, just wanted to let you know what I was up to. And that helps you attract a network because maybe they will say, Oh, that’s interesting. Let me let Sally know what you’re doing these days. The other thing is you help people remember you. And so somebody who had, I posted something and he had a better comment than my post was, he said, networking is about being remembered when it counts. So it’s one thing to have all of these contacts and connections on LinkedIn, but if something comes up that you would be interested in, but that person who’s in your network, but they don’t even remember you, then that’s a problem. So visibility is one thing that LinkedIn and email has made easier. It’s easier for you to be seen and be remembered. I am gonna, do a class. I was actually, we were saying before we started recording that, before I was a banker, I was a writer. So, LinkedIn, writing for LinkedIn, and writing for my newsletters comes a little bit easier for me. But there’s certainly tips I’ve learned along the way that can help you be visible. And like I said, people whine about too much Zoom, but one, it’s how I met you. Yeah. It enabled me to connect with people all around the country and the world. Yeah. I just interviewed two women who have a company called Power Suit. They’re based in New Zealand. I’m publishing that interview on a Friday, and they talked about networking with the women in their group. The kinds of things that they may be struggling with, et cetera. So the ability to do coffee on Zoom would have changed my life. When I was working from home, it just wasn’t available. But, and so now I won’t say people don’t have any excuse, but because as people are still, especially women, press for time, et cetera, but you do have many more tools than you had 10 years ago. AW: It’s not that there’s no excuse, but maybe there’s less excuse. So, back to your point, I love this. I wanna underscore this point about being remembered at the right moment when it counts. This goes back to something that you and I have talked about in the past, right? Which is establishing and reinforcing your brand. So, Shelly, you have expertise in networking now, and you said in the automotive industry, in the financial and banking industries. So, how on LinkedIn, if someone comes up with this list of five things that they wanna make sure people know about them, do you have any tips of what to share on LinkedIn? SL: Yeah, so what I would say is it depends on your goal. So I don’t post a lot about corporate boards, unless it’s networking your way into a corporate board. But I don’t post a lot on being on corporate boards or that kind of stuff, ’cause right now I won’t say I’m not looking for a board seat. If one drops in my lap, that’d be great, but I what I would suggest is pick a lane. Like you can’t be known for five or six different things. You are known for communications, and then you expand out from that. I’m known for networking and so people lane, that helps you make your posts consistent and people will remember you. Like people always say to me, oh, we need somebody to teach on networking. And I have to say, let me step back and say I am not a thought leader or an expert on networking. I have learned from people like you, I’ve learned from the almost a hundred women I’ve interviewed for my schmooze newsletter, and I’ve detected some patterns and said, okay, this makes sense. This is what works. And so I approach LinkedIn. You know what, let me tap into the experts, ’cause I’m not an expert at this. And so that’s how I pro, approached it. And now I’m starting like curiosity was something multiple women, when I interviewed them, they mentioned it. Curiosity. Oh. I said, why is this person take you under their wing? And you, they became your sponsor. Oh, I was curious about what was going on in the company and how we were making money, and this pivot we were gonna do. So after seeing curiosity pop up various places. I was like, okay, that’s a relationship, that’s a networking hack. Particularly internal. So what I would say is I am, I’m not a thought leader on networking, but there’s certain themes that I have learned and that I have distilled from my conversations with women who were much better at it than I was. And those are the kinds of things that I want to share with other women.  AW: So, Shelly, I think you are describing something that I actually just shared, in a bootcamp that a couple hours ago I was teaching in a bootcamp on LinkedIn, and I asked everyone in the bootcamp to rate themselves on a score of zero to 10 on their LinkedIn profile and then also on their activity on LinkedIn. And they were all way below five, like zero outta 10, three outta 10, whatever. And most of ’em said they avoid it. They don’t really know what to say. And your point here is that the thought leadership doesn’t have to come from you. You can share your interest, expertise, and passion in something by sharing other people’s perspectives, right? So I said the first thing I want you to do is go to the home page on LinkedIn, start scrolling through your feed. Find an article or a post that’s interesting, and then repost it with comments. Not just repost it, and right repost it with a comment that’s I absolutely endorse this, and I would add this one other point, or I absolutely endorse this, particularly this one thing. And then you are implicitly sharing your expertise. So, Shelly, with those 100 women who you’ve interviewed, you are sharing your expertise through them. I think it’s a brilliant strategy  SL: And that’s a great point. I. Didn’t. That’s how Schmooze started. I hadn’t done the networking, didn’t know how to do it, so I started interviewing women, and so I gathered things. It also was a great way to increase my network, ’cause the women I interviewed were oh, okay. and so now many of them, in my network, so to speak. And yeah, I launched mine. From, I won’t say a place of weakness, but I guess a place of curiosity. I didn’t do this well, and so here are some women who have done it well. Here are the themes that I’ve found. And so that’s how Schmooze started is just a LinkedIn newsletter. But absolutely, I would pick a lan,e and I think targeting it to networking or whatever works for you was one of the keys. if I’m just introducing, or I’m just interviewing, managing women who’ve made it, so to speak. They could be talking about anything, sponsor, mentors, anything. But if you boil it down to one thing, and now I’m known for networking. Now, some things coming out of that, or networking to get a board role. And then, one of our popular classes was being an advisor to a startup, which is a way to expand your network. So there are things that come off of that. But what I would say to people, similar to you, scroll through, see what people are talking about, even if you don’t have an expertise, like I’m not a thought leader, I don’t think. Now I’m starting to see themes. So I’m like, okay, lemme put this out there. Visibility networking hack. Let me put this out there. And so I picked a lane, and I just started posting what other women were saying about it, about that lane, which was networking. And that really resonated with people. And I’m not. There’s a lot about women in management going on out here, but I picked Elaine and then was very consistent about posting on that. As you said, even if it was the thoughts of other people, because it was like, wow, she did it right. I didn’t let me share what she did.  AW: Yeah. Shelly, you have convictions, you have opinions, you do have thoughts on strategic networking that would definitely qualify you as being a thought leader. I truly think as soon as you start teaching something, and this is actually another hack, right? As soon as you start teaching something, you are demonstrating leadership in that area. And this is something that I sometimes coach, especially women who are struggling with demonstrating leadership, right? They’re, they’ve been told, you’re ready for the promotion, you just need to demonstrate leadership. And they’re like, how do I do that? How do I do that? And I said, one thing is find something that you can coach and mentor, and teach people about, and then you’ll be seen as a leader. And I think that’s what’s, that’s what you’re doing. I admire what you’re doing so much Shelly.  How to Take Action Today Before we get into the three rapid-fire questions I wanna ask you this, maybe perhaps overwhelming question, which is. If someone who’s listening here is ready to level up their networking strategy this year, or in the short term, what is the first thing, or one of the most important thing,s that you would tell them to do starting today?  SL: Okay. So I think the most important thing is schedule a time to do it. Don’t expect that it’s gonna happen, like just, organically. So maybe 4:00 PM on Friday when you’re starting to wind down and look forward to the weekend, or maybe on a Sunday afternoon where the kids are doing something else, or you are on the sideline of your child’s soccer game and you’re chatting with the other parents, you can steal a minute and do a few things, connect with a few people. So, schedule a time to do it. Step some small goals. So we just recently, that’s why recently started a schmooze accountability group where people can meet and say, okay, these are three things I wanna get done this week. So set out some very achievable small goals every week that you can meet. And a couple other things I wanna make sure to mention, weak ties. I think it’s LinkedIn and Harvard did research on where most people find jobs, and they find them through people they don’t know as well. They don’t find them through close ties. I’m not gonna find them through my friend Sharon, who I went to business school with ad we are really close because we have the same network, but it’s people that they don’t know well. So I would start, if I’m gonna set aside the time and start, do some small goals, reach out to those weak ties, say every week, three people, somebody I worked with 10 years ago, who I haven’t talked to in a while, I’m just gonna ping them. Hey, thought of you. That kind of thing. Thinking of you, it’s only transactional when you’re not keeping in touch with people. Another thing you may wanna do is send a professional update and then schedule a coffee catch-up. Hey, just wanted to let you know this is what I’m up to now. Let’s grab a Zoom coffee and catch up. And then I would also say go to at least one in-person event per month. If you can . Read Andrea’s article about how to nail your self-introduction, and people tell me, read that first because that will equip you for going to a meetup. But it doesn’t have to be in your industry or in your functional area. It doesn’t have to be the National Association of Accountants and your accountant or it doesn’t have to be people in AI and you’re in AI. I often get invited to things about women and wealth. And it’s like I did the Wall Street thing. I’m not interested, but I go anywhere. Go anyway. Because in addition to strategy, being a part of networking, serendipity is as well. When you meet people, you meet their network. In addition to that introducing people to other people in your network is really helpful, so you can help other people. So I’m going to something, somebody just invited me to something, women in their money, or something like that. And so I’m gonna go because I don’t know who I’m gonna meet. So it may not fit into my strategy, but I may, there may be serendipity, like I may stumble across somebody and happens to me all the time, who like, oh, didn’t know you were gonna be here. Or, oh, even though you do that, I don’t do that. But you know what, this is how we could work together. So strategy and serendipity. And can I just say one thing? So, just to recap, schedule a time to do it. Set some small goals. Don’t forget about weak ties. It’s only transactional if you’re not, keeping in touch with people. It feels less transactional if you are not reaching out to ’em once every 10 years. So send some thinking of you, thought of you, LinkedIn messages or e-mails, maybe a professional update, and then go to one in-person event per month. Can I say one other thing before we go to our rapid-fire questions? Yes. Yes. Follow up. One of our most popular Schmooze courses is the Fortune is in the follow-up. After you meet someone, LinkedIn or we introduce each other to each other on LinkedIn and you had a coffee chat or you met ’em in person, do a, oh, it was such so great to meet you, 24 or 48 hours after then Comment on their posts, re-share their posts like you said, oh, so and so said this. I thought it was so insightful. Let me re-share it with some comments. And then we recently had a session with Susan McPherson, who wrote the book, The Lost Art of Connecting. And she talked about approaching it. And this also takes it out of the realm of being transactional or being like a bad person or manipulative person. The whole thing is, how can I help? Even if the person isn’t active on LinkedIn, you can forward articles, information about conferences. It doesn’t have to be work-related. If you and small talk is helpful because you’re not connecting with a title, you’re connecting with a person. So you know, if they’ve said they’re from Chicago, send ’em something on the White Sox. If they said they’re planning a trip to New Orleans, I’m from New Orleans, you can send ’em an org article on the 10 best restaurants in New Orleans. So your follow-up doesn’t have to be work-related. One huge follow-up hack is introducing people to in your network to each other. So in addition to saying, how can I help? Saying to them, would it be helpful if I introduce you to so and and one point that Susan makes in her book is that you make people feel seen. It’s obvious if you introduce people to each other, you notice them, you notice, made a note of what was important to them, and you try to be helpful so they feel seen. And that has really been helpful to me in terms of following up, introducing people in your network to each other. So even though I don’t need anything from you, I don’t, we are not even doing the same thing, but I know somebody who is doing the same thing at you as you, let me introduce you, and that’s where the serendipity comes in. And also the follow-up.  AW: I love it. You know what you made me think when you were saying that Shelly is in the same way that if you don’t talk about your work, you might as well have not have done it. If you don’t follow up with someone after you make a new connection, you might as well have not met them. SL: Oh my goodness. That is amazing. Yes, absolutely. I learned more sitting on you. Yeah, that those three insights are worth the price of that mission. It is those, you said a couple of things that resonated with me. Fabulous. Absolutely.  Rapid Fire Questions AW: Shelly, back at you. I got, I’m gonna say this again, reading your posts on LinkedIn, always make me smile and you make me think. You do make me think, right? So, thank you, and let’s move on to the five rapid-fire questions. So the first one, I already know the first part of the answer because you already said it, but maybe not the second part. The question is, are you an extrovert or an introvert? And how does that affect your communication?  SL: I’m definitely an introvert, as I said, and I’m shy, which is different from being an introvert. People always say that to me. I’m my best one-on-one, like in a podcast. I’m best when I’m speaking to thousands of people, ’cause it’s not, I’m at my most self-conscious when I am talking to a small group, like 10 people. But I definitely am an introvert. An introvert, an extrovert is more about how you, recharge yourself. And I recharge myself by being alone. And that has had a huge impact on my networking. I have to be much more conscious. But, somebody said this to me. One of the women I interviewed for Schmooze she said, introverts are not introverted in their area of expertise. And so I’m less of an introvert now than I was when I worked on Wall Street because I’m all into schmooze and I love what I’m talking about, and I love what I’m doing, which is why I don’t come across as an introvert now. And I probably did on Wall Street ’cause I was much, I wasn’t in my zone, and now I’m in my zone.  AW: Oh yes. That’s a great way of putting it. I can see you’re in your zone. Okay, second question. What are your communication pet peeves, things that really annoy you?  SL: You know what? I don’t think I have one. I don’t think I have one. I was a communications grad on a major undergrad, and I am a voracious reader. Yeah, I don’t think I have a communications pet peeve. I can’t think of one.  AW: So you’re the second person recently that I’ve interviewed that said that, and I have to say, I admire the fact that you don’t get annoyed. SL: Yeah, I really don’t. I’ll read somebody’s LinkedIn post and I’ve said, oh, it would’ve been more effective if she did this, and this. But it doesn’t annoy me. and again, I think it comes from being in my zone. ’cause now I’m open to pretty much anything. I’m like, this is interesting. That’s interesting. I’m curious about that. So I don’t really, the only thing I think that bothers me is the lack of communication. So, my husband is never on LinkedIn, and I’m like, dude, he’s getting ready to retire. I’m like, if you want to do something different, you gotta put yourself out there. And my pet peeve would probably only be the lack of communication. Like my husband’s not on any social media at all. And I’m like, if you are trying to start a new chapter in your life, pick up your LinkedIn messages. You know what I mean? And I think that. is more of oh, frustration to me than, some stumbling in communication.  AW: Okay. third and last rapid fire question, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending to other people lately? SL: Yeah, so a couple, and now that I have been on yours, I will be recommending this ’cause I know you’re a communication expert, which so many people need. There’s a book called F*** Being Humble, and she came and talked to the Schmooze community. It’s Stefanie Sword Williams, and it’s about self-promotion and how self-promotion is not a dirty word. Another one is The Lost Art of Connecting, and that’s Susan McPherson. She did a, also did a Schmooze session, probably a few weeks ago. So those two, one of the ones that I like and it has to do, more about building a business, is falling in love with the problem, not the solution. So in other words. And it can relate to helping people. It’s about, you know what, let me see what they need. If you approach networking from, how can I help you? Would it be helpful if I connected you to this? You’re falling in love with the person’s problem and offering them a solution. And so that book was more about building a business, but I absolutely loved it. And I go back to it over and over again with my business. Am I falling in love with my solution rather than is this solution helpful to people who are members of Schmooze?  AW: Okay. I’m gonna put links to those books in the show notes. I’m gonna ask you one last question, Shelly. Is there anything, any suggestions or advice you wanna leave with the talk about, talk listeners related to? I guess succeeding in their networking.  SL: I would just say, even though I’m shy. Social media has made, look, even an introvert can hit click, and so the introverts among us, social media is a gift because you really don’t have to be out there at 10 events a month. You really just have to focus on being visible on LinkedIn. Now, it’s very helpful if you’re out there visible in person as well, but even I can hit click. And so that’s one of the reasons that one of the things that’s helped me to get into my zone. And so what I would say to people is just get out there, and if I can do it, and in addition to be shy and being shy and introvert, I’m also a little bit socially awkward. I would rather have my nose buried in a book somewhere than to be doing anything. That’s my a book in the beach is like my ultimate, that’s how I recharge myself. But if I can get out here and do it and learn to enjoy it, I think other people can as well. I’m about as far, I’m not totally on the introvert spectrum, but I’m certainly like on the introvert, introverted, more introverted than extroverted, and even introverts can do this. And I guess one last thing. If somebody commented on one of my posts, if you’re not doing this, you’re gambling with your career. You gotta, you have to, you can’t just put your head down and work if you’re not doing this. There is going to come a point, like it came with me, where I needed a network and I didn’t have one. I got laid off four times on Wall Street. The first three times people found me, there was no LinkedIn. They called people who knew me, and they sought me out and made me job offers the fourth time after working from home for eight years. My phone did not ring. And so you wanna get on this before you need it. You wanna dig the well before you need the water. And so not only can introverts do it, and I think the, a large, the majority of the world identifies as being an introvert, whether that’s true or not, but you have to do it because if you don’t do it, there’s gonna come a time when you’re gonna need that network. This world is changing so rapidly and so fast. The people who work in the federal government who thought they had a job for life turns out they didn’t have a job for life. It’s really critical, and you can get a lot of joy out. It don’t think of it as building contacts. Think of it as relationships. And so not only will you enjoy meeting other people, but build that network before you need it ‘cause at some point, if you don’t need it, your kid don’t need it, your spouse will need it. Do it.  AW: Wonderful advice. Shelly, I wanna say thank you. It was so enjoyable to hang out with you here and to have this conversation one-on-one. I hope we can do it again. Thank you.  SL: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Post-Interview Recap AW: Isn’t Shelly fantastic? I encourage you to follow Shelly on LinkedIn if you’re not following her already. And now I’m gonna share three key learnings that I wanna reinforce for you. 1. Pick A Lane and Be Visible First, pick a lane. And be visible. Shelly’s suggestion is that you decide on your niche, the thing that you want to be known for, then stay in your lane. This is about consistency and then visibility. So get out there to live events, write articles, give presentations, and online share your insights on social media. If you’re not comfortable creating your own thought leadership, then you can repost others with your comments. So that’s the first point. Pick a lane and be visible. 2. The Difference Between How Men and Women Network The second point that I wanna reinforce is the difference between men and women that Shelly outlined in terms of how they network. She mentioned three things. Men have no issue with being transactional. Meanwhile, many women are focused on creating relationships and friendships. Of course, relationships and friendships are good, but sometimes we need to be reminded that it’s okay to be transactional. Shelly highlighted how women often assume that their work speaks for itself. As we said, this can be dangerous. Oftentimes, if you don’t speak for your work, you might as well have not done it. The third point about gender differences is that, as Shelly says. All roads lead to mom. This can make networking even more challenging. I hope this one is changing. So these gender differences in networking are the second thing that I wanted to reinforce with you. 3. The Fortune is in the Follow-up The third point is that the fortune is in the follow-up. Shelly highlighted a few times how important it is to close the loop with new contacts and also to stay fresh in the minds of your existing network. This relates back to the point about visibility. She talked about using small and big events. As a catalyst to follow up with your network, meeting new people. Connect on LinkedIn and close the loop. Read a great article. Share it with your comments. Interviewed for a podcast or an article. Share this with your network. That’s it for the three key learnings. One, pick a lane and be visible. Two gender differences in networking, and three, the fortune is in the follow-up. Got it. Again, I encourage you to connect with Shelly on LinkedIn. As I mentioned, Shelly and her work with Schmooze. Make LinkedIn a better place. And while you’re there, connect with me too. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post The #1 Networking Mistake Smart Professionals Make—and How to Fix It with Shelly Lombard (ep.192) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

What is your body saying when you’re not speaking, and how could it be holding you back? In this episode, world-renowned body language expert Mark Bowden explains how nonverbal signals impact trust, credibility, and executive presence. Discover how our brains instinctively scan for safety cues, and why understanding body language is critical for anyone who leads, presents, or communicates under pressure. CONNECT WITH ANDREA  Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ LinkedIn Talk About Talk:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Newsletter:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/ CONNECT WITH MARK BOWDEN Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/c/MarkBowden1 Virtual Presentation Training: https://truthplane.mykajabi.com/store https://truthplane.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/MarkBowden1 TRANSCRIPTION “What instantly comes to your mind when you see me cross my arms?” Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk: I’ve been told that’s a sign of defensiveness, but I’m not sure that’s true. Mark Bowden: Yeah? Well, good. You know, I’d start by checking who told you that. AW: I think it’s just common knowledge, right? MB: Common knowledge. Yeah, stupid. You know, I actually stopped trying to count all the reasons why people cross their arms after I hit 30. It just got boring. There are many, many reasons. Meet Mark Bowden AW: Mark Bowden is a world-renowned body language expert, and he’s been on my radar for a while. When we finally connected for this interview, we discovered that we live and work near each other. What a coincidence! We both share a passion for helping others communicate more effectively. But I have to say: Mark blew my mind. This conversation took twists and turns I didn’t see coming. So buckle up. You’re about to learn a ton about body language, perception, credibility, and so much more. Welcome to the Talk About Talk Podcast! In this episode, you’ll hear my conversation with body language expert, keynote speaker, and bestselling author Mark Bowden. You’ll learn the one key thing you need to focus on to instantly improve your body language, and your communication overall. You’ll also gain insight into how our motivations, including our primal survival instincts, shape our perceptions of others, especially when it comes to interpreting body language. And finally, we’ll bust a few body language myths that you’ve probably accepted as truth…until now. If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. I’m so glad you’re here. And if you’re new to Talk About Talk, welcome! Please subscribe to the podcast on your platform of choice (Apple, Spotify, or YouTube), where you can actually see me and Mark in action. Subscribing ensures you never miss an episode and that you receive ongoing communication coaching from me every two weeks. We cover topics like: Overcoming imposter syndrome Giving powerful presentations Establishing executive presence Building your personal brand And yes, body language. You can also find free learning resources, coaching services, and more on the Talk About Talk website: talkabouttalk.com. A Quick Roadmap First, I’ll introduce Mark, then we’ll dive into our interview. Afterward, I’ll summarize with three key learnings that I hope you’ll take away. You don’t need to take notes. Just keep doing whatever you’re doing: walking, driving, lounging on the couch. I’ve got you covered. And of course, you can always reference the show notes in your podcast app for more details. About Mark Bowden Mark Bowden is a globally recognized authority on body language. He’s been named the No. 1 Body Language Professional in the world multiple times by Global Gurus. His unique GesturePlane™ system of nonverbal communication empowers audiences to use body language to stand out, build trust, and gain credibility. Mark is the founder of TRUTHPLANE®, a communication training company that serves major organizations including Zoom, Shopify, Real Madrid, Toyota, the U.S. Army, and NATO. He’s also worked with G7 prime ministers and business leaders worldwide. He’s a bestselling author, a popular instructor in Canada’s top-ranked EMBA program at the Kellogg-Schulich School of Business, and the current President of the National Communication Coach Association of Canada. You might’ve seen Mark on the Dr. Phil Show, CNN, CBS, or Global News, or watched his TEDx talk, “The Importance of Being In-Authentic,” which has reached tens of millions of viewers. He’s also a co-host of the YouTube hit The Behavior Panel, which has garnered more than 75 million views. Thank you so much for being here today, Mark, to talk with me, and the Talk About Talk listeners, about body language. MB: It’s great to be here. So, what are your thoughts? What are your questions or observations? AW: Let’s start with the big picture. I coach senior executives on all things communication. So how, and why, does body language fit into the broader context of communication and executive presence? MB: Easy. I judge you. You judge me. We all judge each other. That’s it. Now, how do we do that? Well, we could come up with all kinds of explanations that aren’t really true. But the reality is, we form (and continue to form) judgments based mostly on how people behave in front of us. What their face is doing. What their body is doing. What their hands are doing. How they’re dressed. The environment they’re in. We judge partly by vocal tone, but we barely judge each other on what’s actually said. In fact, we often just make up what we think someone said based on how they behaved. So if you change, or more importantly, choose, your behaviors, you stand a much better chance of shaping how someone judges you. That influences how they interpret what you’ve said and even what they imagine you said. AW: So the transcript doesn’t really matter? MB: Right. Here’s the interesting thing. I could say something with very positive content, and if you transcribed it, it would read positively. But if I use body language that communicates negativity, that’s what people will walk away with. AW: Mm-hmm. MB: I’ll ask people, “What images came to mind when I said that?” And they’ll often report negative associations, even though my words were positive. That’s because they weren’t truly listening. Their brains were inventing meaning based on how I looked and behaved. And that narrative, the one their brains created, completely takes over. AW: Right. MB: They go back to their teams and say, “We came up with such a great message!” but the audience didn’t take that message away. Instead, people are telling each other a whole different story. And that story, based on body language, spreads. If I use body language effectively, I can control the narrative in people’s minds and influence how they communicate that message to others. AW: I’m watching you now, Mark. You’re so effectively reinforcing your words with your gestures: your facial expressions, your arms, your hands. And I’m suddenly very aware of my own body language. My clients say the same thing. As soon as we talk about body language, especially when they’re on stage or leading a meeting, it’s like, “Where do I look? What do I do with my hands?” So what should executives prioritize when it comes to body language and being perceived as credible leaders? MB: Just one thing. AW: Mm-hmm? MB: Open-palm gestures at navel height. AW: The truth plane. MB: Exactly. People often ask, “What else?” But until you master that one thing, especially under stress, don’t worry about anything else. That one behavior has incredible power when it comes to building trust and credibility. AW: Okay. MB: If you’re speaking in front of a group (whether it’s 10 people or 10,000) and you ask me what single behavior gives you the most bang for your buck, it’s open-palm gestures at navel height. Once you’ve nailed that, everything else, like eye contact, will start to fall into place. When you’re under pressure and still use open-palm gestures at navel height, you create what I call a “cascade effect.” It triggers certain behaviors in your audience, and those behaviors influence the rest of the room. AW: Right. From mirroring and everything else. I often tell my clients that showing open palms signals you’re not holding a spear, rock, knife, or gun. It communicates safety. But why specifically at navel height? MB: Great question. You’re right: Open palms universally signal no tools, no weapons. That message transcends culture. You and I may come from different backgrounds, but our brains understand that visual cue the same way. But it’s not just the hands. The navel area represents the body’s center of gravity. It reveals your true intention. People say, “Watch their feet.” No, watch where their center of gravity is going. If the torso doesn’t move, the feet don’t matter. This area here (your stomach, your navel) is incredibly vulnerable. We haven’t evolved to have ribs protecting it all the way down. Why? Because our ancestors needed to be able to duck, run, and twist quickly to survive. If we had a rigid ribcage extending all the way down, our agility would be compromised. AW: Right. MB: So think back to when we were ground-dwelling mammals. When there was a threat, we’d hit the ground and protect our belly. That was our survival instinct. But now, as upright hominids walking the plains of Africa, we’ve gained visibility (we can see threats from far away) but we’ve also exposed our most vulnerable area. AW: Because we’re standing up now. MB: Exactly. Standing upright offers a tactical advantage: you can spot predators or allies from miles away. But the downside is that your vital organs are now exposed. So when I show you my open palms at navel height, I’m not just saying “no weapons.” I’m signaling vulnerability, exposing the soft tissue that could lead to death if damaged. AW: So you’re communicating: “I’m not a threat. I trust you.” MB: Yes. And in doing that, I reduce perceived risk. And in a leadership context, especially when there’s risk outside the room, you want to be seen as the least risky person inside the room. AW: Right. Beautiful. MB: I use words, metaphors, and imagery to communicate that the risk is out there—not in here, not with me. I want people to think, “Wow, this is a safe space.” That’s why open-palm gestures at navel height work so well for leaders. AW: When I coach executives, whether in workshops or one-on-one, many say they feel overwhelmed by body language. They’ve heard that 68% (or whatever the number is) of communication is nonverbal. So they start to panic: “Where do I look? What do I do with my face? My hands?” That’s why I created a simple three-point scan: Posture: Be expansive Hands: Open palms Eyes: Make intentional eye contact Now I’ll say “Open palms at navel height.” What do you think about that framework? MB: It’s great. You’re simplifying a complex system. Human communication is overwhelming. There are so many signals flying around. Your clients are trying to manage their own behavior while analyzing others. The brain starts to panic. Oxygen leaves the thinking part of the brain, and they fall back into instinct: fight or flight. That’s why I try to get clients down to just one behavior. When they’re under pressure, dealing with a big presentation or unexpected scrutiny, they can’t manage everything. So I say, “Just do the one thing that will create a cascade effect.” Forget what you’re feeling. I don’t care if you’re scared or confident. It’s not about you, it’s about the audience. We’re trying to change their minds. That’s the hardest thing in the world to do. So I tell clients: open-palm gestures at navel height. They’ll ask, “Should I make eye contact?” Don’t worry, it will fall into place. This moment is extraordinary. You’re in an extraordinary situation. Ordinary behaviors, what feels natural or “authentic,” won’t cut it. Authenticity is about survival. It’s designed to keep you where you are, safe and small. But you’re not trying to be small, you’re leading. You need extraordinary behaviors for an extraordinary moment. And yes, it will feel odd. Do it anyway. Do it on purpose. AW: Got it. So how does this change in a virtual environment? Say I’m doing a podcast, a TV interview, or a Zoom call. Should I still be holding my hands up and showing my palms? What should we be thinking about with the face, the framing, and the impressions we’re giving? MB: Great question. The biggest thing to consider here is context. Let’s imagine we were doing this interview live, in person. We’d have to travel to meet. That’s time and money. We’d have to find a venue. That’s even more risk, logistics, insurance, and a physical audience. There’s a reason insurers require waivers for live events, it’s risky. Now compare that to this. What’s the risk assessment here? AW: Pretty low. I can delete parts if needed. MB: Exactly. This is a cheap signal. In animal communication, this is what we call a “cheap signal.” It didn’t cost much. So my value, and your value, just dropped in your audience’s eyes. If you met me in person, you’d think, “Wow, Mark’s amazing!” Why? Because you would’ve invested time and energy. Your brain would say, “This must be valuable, why else would I have spent all this effort?” So here in this low-cost environment, I need to raise the perceived value. I do that by making this conversation feel more alive. More animated. I need to give your brain the sense of social risk, like we’re breathing the same air, even though we’re not. AW: That reminds me of something a vocal coach told me. She said that online communication dampens everything. So we need to be more intentional, more dynamic with our voice: vary the pace, pitch, tone, and volume. It’s all about overcoming that dampening effect. MB: Exactly. I’m doing the same visually. I’m maximizing the video. I’ve got a great mic here, a Neumann TLM 103, so I can get up close and whisper if I want, and it picks up that intimacy. That creates proximity. But humans are visual. Some people claim they’re more auditory or tactile, but look at how much brainpower is dedicated to vision. Evolution figured out that sight is our best survival tool. So most of our attention goes to what people are doing, not how they sound. Now, the sound part of the brain doesn’t like to make stuff up. Unlike vision, where your brain fills in the blanks, hearing is more binary. That’s why you’ll crash your car if you talk on a phone while driving. The low audio quality forces your brain to work harder on decoding sound, stealing resources from vision. Your peripheral vision narrows, and you don’t see danger coming. AW: Public service announcement! Stay off your phones while driving, people. MB: Exactly. You literally won’t see it coming. So when I’m on a video call or a podcast, I’m really trying to animate the frame. I’ve got 30 frames per second. If I’m not using them, I may as well send a still image. But I’m not doing that. I’m sending a moving image, one that wakes up your brain. I’ll often break the frame slightly to get your attention. You’ll notice I use baton gestures, too. These gestures match the rhythm of my speech. They help you not only hear the cadence, but also see it. That helps the Broca’s area of your brain (where speech processing happens) get more confident that it’s predicting me correctly. Because really, you don’t hear what I’m saying; you predict it. Then based on whether your prediction matches, you feel like, “Oh, I understand Mark!” AW: Sounds a lot like AI…making predictions. MB: Exactly. Our brains aren’t knowledge machines. They’re best-guess machines. All the knowledge you think you have? It’s just a series of guesses that turned out to be right. But the moment those guesses stop working, your brain says, “I don’t get it.” First, it’ll assume the world is wrong, or that other people are wrong. If that doesn’t hold, the brain gets discouraged and says, “I don’t understand the universe anymore.” That’s because it’s not working from knowledge, it’s operating from predictions. AW: So when we’re trying to make a strong impression, we need to understand that people are constantly making judgments, and updating them. They’re looking for cues that either reinforce or contradict their initial impression. MB: Let me tweak that a bit. We’re not constantly judging. We only update our judgments when something new happens, when there’s a pattern disruption. Our brains are pattern recognition machines. They spot patterns, and they like consistency. But when that pattern gets disrupted, the brain wakes up and re-evaluates. If the new pattern is subtle or consistent, the brain keeps its judgment. But when it meets the “min spec” (the minimum specification needed to change its mind) it does. It flips. So, when you’re trying to change a first impression, the key is understanding what that minimum trigger is. What’s the hair-trigger that shifts their perception? AW: Got it. MB: Too often, people think, “If I want a big reaction, I need to do something big.” But that’s not sustainable. You’ll burn out. Instead, figure out which small action nudges the domino. You don’t even have to pull the trigger, just touch it, and let the audience do the rest. That’s how you communicate effectively: cheap, fast, and with maximum impact. AW: I imagine that applies to a lot of leadership communication, whether it’s implementing a new strategy or speaking to shareholders. MB: Absolutely. Same principle applies in politics, too. Candidates are constantly trying to shift perceptions: of themselves, their policies, or their opponents. AW: Right. And you’ve analyzed a lot of political candidates’ body language on TV. I’m curious: If there are certain tropes or myths out there about body language or just outdated tips that you’re just sick and tired of hearing about. MB: This isn’t a pet peeve, but it’s a classic example: crossed arms. AW: Yes! I was going to ask about that. MB: Right? What comes to mind when you see me cross my arms? AW: I’ve always heard that it’s a sign of defensiveness. But I’m not totally convinced that’s true. MB: Good. First off: Who told you that? AW: I think it’s just… common knowledge. MB: Common knowledge. Yeah. Stupid. I’ve stopped counting the reasons why someone might cross their arms. I hit 30 and gave up. There are so many. Now, why do people automatically assume crossed arms mean someone’s “closed off”? Why make that judgment? AW: Maybe because you leaned back while doing it? Like, “I’m done with this conversation.” MB: That’s one possibility. But I leaned back here just so you could clearly see the movement. Also, when I cross my arms, you can’t see my palms, there’s less visible information. And when we have insufficient data, we default to the negative. That’s why open palm gestures work so well. They give your audience enough information to make a safe, positive assumption. Crossed arms do the opposite. So when I cross my arms, your brain reassesses. It goes: “I don’t know what that means. It’s a big enough shift to warrant re-evaluation, but I don’t have enough info.” So, instinctively, the brain defaults to negative: “Mark is bored, angry, or defiant.” But maybe I’m just thinking. Or I’m cold. Or I’m trying to reduce neural load to help with decision-making. AW: Right. That makes sense. MB: Here’s the point: Even as a body language expert, I’m telling you, we are all terrible at reading body language instinctively. We get it wrong constantly. AW: Says the expert! MB: It’s true. But we default to negative interpretations for survival. Our instincts don’t care about accuracy. They care about safety…right now. So if something is ambiguous, the brain says, “Prepare for something bad.” AW: So we’re in survival mode. And ambiguity makes us defensive or cautious. MB: Exactly. We’ll evaluate someone negatively before we ever evaluate them positively. The only way around that? Critical thinking. But that takes time. And in the moment, time is a luxury we don’t always have. AW: You can’t pause a conversation to analyze every gesture. MB: Right. Unless you have a very fast, practiced system and you’re constantly checking for your own safety in the process. Communicating Safety Through Body Language AW: In executive presence coaching, we focus on thriving. But maybe part of the message is acknowledging that your audience is often in survival mode. MB: Exactly. And the simplest way to help them feel safe? Provide sufficient data. AW: What do you mean? MB: Let’s say I’m your boss and I send an email: “See me in my office at 4:30.” That’s it. AW: Yikes. MB: Why? Because there’s no context. No information. Your brain fills the gap, and it fills it with negativity. You assume the worst. But what if I was calling you in to promote you? The more information you provide, the better people behave. Their judgments are more accurate, and they’re less likely to spiral into fear or doubt. AW: I heard a lot of that during the pandemic. Leaders were told to over-communicate. MB: Absolutely. When fear is already present, less information won’t calm people down. You need more clarity, more transparency. Combine that with aligned nonverbal cues (open palms, eye contact) and you reinforce the message of safety. Mark’s Hot Takes on Body Language AW: Before we wrap up with our rapid-fire questions, what’s your hot take on body language? MB: Here’s one: The idea that you should mirror other people’s body language to get them to like you. That’s not quite right. AW: Oh? MB: We naturally mirror anyway. It’s part of how we develop empathy and theory of mind. But when you do it on purpose, you might mirror behaviors that aren’t useful. If someone crosses their arms and you do the same? Now you’re both closed off. You lean back, they lean back, you spiral downward. Instead, only mirror the behaviors you want to see more of. AW: Got it. MB: A better approach? Positively affirm the behaviors you want to reinforce. Here’s another take: All body language is either a response to power or a display of power. AW: Interesting. MB: For example, gravity is power. Throughout this interview, I’ve been showing my buoyancy against gravity. Now watch: I slump. That’s a different response to power. Now I lift again. Different message. Every movement you make is about power. Recognizing this helps you decode behavior more effectively. AW: There’s a beautiful tie-in to survival here. Those with power are more likely to survive, and influence others’ survival. Who We Follow, and Why MB: We mirror the strongest, clearest signal in the room, not necessarily the smartest or best. Just the most followable. AW: So true. MB: We also follow the person who controls the most valuable resource, whatever that may be in your environment. That’s why symbols and rituals matter: badges, behavior patterns, language. AW: And if you’re unsure of the hierarchy? MB: Just ask. Don’t guess. Say, “What’s most valuable to you here?” Then ask, “How would I know who controls that?” People will tell you: Our brains love answering hierarchical, evaluative questions. It’s hardwired. Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: So helpful. I coach people who want to thrive, but many of these insights come down to survival. Understanding that helps us lead more effectively. Okay. Ready for rapid-fire? MB: Let’s go. AW: Introvert or extrovert? MB: Ambivert. Most of us are. It’s situational, not fixed. Put someone in a different environment, you’ll see different behaviors. AW: Love it. Question two: communication pet peeves? MB: Honestly, none. In my line of work, being annoyed by communication would be unbearable. People don’t know what they don’t know. That’s why I’m here. But ask me about food? Pet peeves galore! Nuts in chocolate? Salt in chocolate? Unacceptable. And don’t get me started on putting raspberries on crème brûlée. That should be illegal. AW: (Laughing) Okay, noted. Final question: Any podcasts or books you recommend lately? MB: Yes: The Rest is Politics. If you like politics, it’s thoughtful and offers fresh perspectives. Also The Rest is History. Great storytelling, global context. AW: Amazing! I’ll link both in the show notes. AW: Mark, thank you so much. I learned a ton, and I had fun. MB: My pleasure. Always a pleasure. Thank you. 🎧 Post-Interview Recap Well, that was a fascinating conversation, wasn’t it? I didn’t expect we’d end up discussing our evolutionary path from ground-dwelling mammals to upright hominids on the African plains, but I’m so glad we did. That’s why I love bringing expert guests on the podcast. We get to learn together. Now, let me reinforce the three key takeaways from my conversation with Mark Bowden: 1. Open Palm Gestures at Navel Height Mark strongly emphasized this single technique. If you want to appear credible, trustworthy, and influential, use open palm gestures at navel height. This is your center of gravity. It’s also a vulnerable area. By exposing it, you signal trust and reduce perceived risk. 2. We’re Wired for Risk and Survival We instinctively scan our environment for threats, and we default to negative interpretations when information is missing. As communicators, and especially as leaders, we must recognize this and over-communicate clarity and safety, both verbally and nonverbally. 3. Body Language Myths Debunked First, crossed arms don’t always mean defensiveness. They can indicate thoughtfulness, comfort, or even that you’re cold. Second, don’t mirror others’ body language indiscriminately. Only mirror behaviors that you want to reinforce. Otherwise, you risk reinforcing negativity or detachment. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating or review on your podcast app, and don’t forget to hit subscribe so you can continue improving your communication skills with Talk About Talk. Thanks again to Mark Bowden. And thank YOU for listening. Talk soon!   The post BODY LANGUAGE, a Matter of Survival – with Expert Mark Bowden (ep.191) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Feeling like a fraud? You’re not alone. In this episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and Kim Meninger explore the roots of imposter syndrome and share actionable strategies to move through it with courage, clarity, and impact. Learn how to lead more inclusive meetings, build authentic confidence, and reframe self-promotion as a meaningful contribution. CONNECT WITH ANDREA  Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ LinkedIn Talk About Talk:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Newsletter:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/ CONNECT WITH KIM Website: www.KimMeninger.com LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/KimMeninger Instagram: Instagram.com/kim.meninger Podcast: The Impostor Syndrome Files TEDx: How to Bring Your Diverse Voice to the Workplace TRANSCRIPTION Self-promotion, when approached strategically, is a service…to others and to ourselves. Nobody is hired just to fill headcount; they’re brought on because of their unique combination of skills, strengths, and capabilities. If you don’t share what you know and what you can do, it becomes harder for others to leverage your strengths. That creates inefficiencies and redundancies. Thinking of self-promotion as an act of service allows us to reframe what might otherwise feel selfish or boastful. Instead of asking, “How can I tell everyone how great I am?” consider asking, “How can I help?” Meet my new friend, Kim Meninger. Kim is an expert on imposter syndrome. In this episode, you’re going to hear our conversation (yes, conversation, not interview) about this powerful and often misunderstood topic. We take turns asking questions, building on each other’s ideas, and sharing practical strategies. You’ll learn new mindsets and actionable tactics to help you combat imposter syndrome and communicate with confidence. These are tools you can start using right away. Ready? Welcome to Ep.190 of the Talk About Talk Podcast Yes, we’re getting close to 200 episodes, and you know there’s going to be a party! If you’re not already subscribed, please hit that follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you’re listening. You can also watch full episodes on YouTube. In case we haven’t met, I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, but please, call me Andrea. I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I serve as your executive communication coach. Through private coaching, workshops, and keynotes, I help ambitious executives master formal presentations, establish executive presence, build personal brands, and yes, overcome imposter syndrome. If you want to stay up to date with my latest tools and coaching insights, go to TalkAboutTalk.com and subscribe to my newsletter. Introducing Kim Meninger Andrea Wojnicki (AW): Today, we’re tackling imposter syndrome with Kim Meninger, a leadership coach, TEDx speaker, and host of the Impostor Syndrome Files podcast. Kim’s mission is to make it easier to be human at work. She brings a wealth of experience, including leadership roles at EMC and Monster, and she holds an MBA and a Professional Certified Coach credential. Kim is passionate about helping professionals boost their confidence, collaborate effectively, and show up authentically at work. Let’s Talk Imposter Syndrome AW: Kim, thank you for being here to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about imposter syndrome. Kim Meninger (KM): Thank you for having me! I’m really excited for this conversation. AW: Me too. Let’s dive in. First, tell me about your perspective on imposter syndrome. KM: Imposter syndrome, for me, is rooted in anxiety. It’s that constant fear that someone will discover you’re not good enough. While it’s not a clinical diagnosis, it’s very real. It keeps us playing small, avoiding risks, and staying quiet. Recognizing that fear is the first step in managing it. AW: Absolutely. And research shows this affects almost everyone, not just women, not just junior professionals, and not just those who appear to lack confidence. In fact, feeling imposter syndrome can be reframed as something positive. If it’s holding you back (say, from raising your hand in a meeting) it will only get worse unless you address it. Tactics to Overcome Imposter Syndrome AW: Here are three of my go-to tactics for managing imposter syndrome: Reframe the adrenaline When I feel that spark of nervous energy, I reframe it as excitement. Energy I can use to shine. Breathe, especially the exhale I focus on slowing my exhale. It signals to my brain that I’m safe, which calms anxiety. Use distanced self-talk Based on research by Dr. Ethan Kross in his book Chatter, I speak to myself in the second person: “Andrea, you’ve got this.” It’s incredibly effective. KM: Those are powerful. I especially love the focus on breathing. It’s a simple way to ground yourself. I also encourage clients to: Speak slowly: It keeps thoughts and speech in sync and projects confidence. Do scary things regularly: Perfectionists often avoid risk. Stretch your comfort zone consistently. Keep an accomplishments journal: Write down three things you did well each day. It rewires your brain to notice strengths and successes. AW: That ties beautifully into personal branding. Owning and articulating your strengths. Framing Self-Promotion as a Service AW: Let’s talk about self-promotion. Many people fear sounding arrogant. But there’s a sweet spot between paralyzing anxiety and overconfidence. I recommend: Adopting a growth mindset: “I know what I know, and I’m keen to learn more.” This keeps you grounded and curious. Using the phrase “people tell me”: Instead of saying “I’m great at this,” say, “People tell me I’m great at this.” It sounds credible and authentic. KM: Exactly. I also frame self-promotion as a service. If you don’t share what you’re good at, others can’t benefit from your expertise. Start by: Updating your manager regularly: Share what you’re working on and what skills you’re using. Teaching others what you know: Sharing knowledge is self-promotion that helps the team. Shaping your brand: Focus on what you want to be known for. Not just what you’ve done in the past. Leadership & Imposter Syndrome AW: For leaders: how can you support team members dealing with imposter syndrome? KM: Assume your team members have it. Most do. Structure meetings to include: Before: Send an agenda and pre-read materials. During: Use diverse participation methods: go-arounds, raised hands, written input. After: Debrief and solicit additional input. AW: Yes! And I always recommend leaders track the ratio (how much airtime each person gets). Extroverts should self-monitor, and leaders should create space for quieter voices. This ensures balanced contributions. Final Thoughts on Imposter Syndrome KM: Remember: imposter syndrome is normal. It peaks during transitions, when we’re out of our comfort zones. Don’t let it stop you. Confidence follows action. Rapid Fire Q&A AW: Kim, are you an introvert or extrovert? KM: Extrovert. I thrive in unscripted situations but have to watch that I don’t wing it too much. AW: What’s your communication pet peeve? KM: Passive-aggressive comments. I prefer directness and clarity. AW: Favorite book or podcast lately? KM: Your Brain at Work by Dr. David Rock. It’s practical and neuroscience-based. It’s great for understanding behavior and communication. Andrea’s Top 3 Takeaways from Kim Take risks regularly Imposter syndrome = fear. Daily risks (personal and professional) build confidence. Manage meetings effectively Use the before-during-after framework to ensure all voices are heard. Frame self-promotion as a service Share your strengths to help others. Teaching what you know is an act of generosity. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might benefit. Thank you for listening, and as always, talk soon!   The post New Strategies to Overcome IMPOSTER SYNDROME with Kim Meninger (ep.190) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

You’ve heard of the glass ceiling, but what about the glass walls? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki speaks with Dr. Amy Diehl, co-author of Glass Walls, about six subtle yet powerful gender bias barriers still limiting women at work. Learn how these biases show up in communication in the workplace and what individuals and leaders can do to recognize and dismantle them. CONNECT WITH ANDREA  Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ LinkedIn Talk About Talk:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Newsletter:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/ CONNECT WITH DR. AMY DIEHL Dr. Diehl’s website & speaking engagement enquiries: https://amy-diehl.com GLASS WALLS book: https://amy-diehl.com/glass-walls-shattering-the-six-gender-bias-barriers-still-holding-women-back-at-work/ Gender Bias Scale for Women Leaders: https://amy-diehl.com/gender-bias-scale/  TRANSCRIPTION “Female hostility. I always get the question. Sometimes people say that the women in the workplace are worse than the men. I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but I will say that when women don’t support other women, it hurts us more. We expect solidarity from our female colleagues.” That was Dr. Amy Diehl, co-author of the book Glass Walls: Shattering the Six Gender Bias Barriers Still Holding Women Back at Work. In the next 45 minutes, we’re going beyond the glass ceiling and glass cliffs. You’re going to learn what those six glass walls are, how they manifest at work, and what we can do about them. Especially in the context of communication, we’ll explore the power of labeling these barriers and talking about them. We all witness these glass walls at work. Whether you’re a woman directly affected, an ally observing them, or a leader with the power to influence change, this episode is for you. Let’s be clear: this isn’t about complaining. This is about using real research to identify, label, and discuss gender bias. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. If you’re new, let me introduce myself. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk. You can learn more about me at talkabouttalk.com. While you’re there, I encourage you to sign up for my email newsletter. Between this podcast and the newsletter, you’ll get valuable communication coaching. I help leaders improve their communication: presentation skills, executive presence, precision, and personal branding. All of these skills are hard enough without the additional challenge of gender bias. Recently I read Glass Walls by Dr. Amy Diehl and Dr. Leanne Dzubinski. From a communication perspective, I saw insights that I knew would resonate with you. So I reached out to Amy, and here we are. Here’s how these 45 minutes will go: I’ll first introduce Dr. Diehl (Amy) and then we’ll jump into the interview. At the end, I’ll share three key takeaways. Yes, always three; the power of three. OK, let me introduce Amy. Amy Diehl, PhD, is an award-winning IT leader and Chief Information Officer at Wilson College in Pennsylvania. She’s also a gender equity researcher and co-author of Glass Walls. Her work has appeared in scholarly journals, Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Ms. Magazine. She’s a sought-after speaker, consultant, and expert witness. Her passion is gender equality in society and the workplace. You can find her at amy-diehl.com. Here we go! Thank you so much, Amy, for being here to talk about glass walls with me and the Talk About Talk listeners.   Amy Diehl: Thanks so much for having me, Andrea. I’m excited for this conversation.   Andrea Wojnicki: We’ve all heard about the glass ceiling and the glass cliff, but can you define what glass walls are and walk us through the six described in your book?   AD: When my co-author Dr. Leanne Dzubinski and I wrote the book, we didn’t initially have the title. It came together after we finished the manuscript and realized what we were really talking about—barriers in every direction. Not just a ceiling above, but walls all around. Invisible, like glass, you often don’t notice them until you run into them. So the metaphor of glass walls made sense.   These barriers are baked into workplace cultures. Our goal was to name them, make them visible, and start discussions about how to dismantle them.   AW: It’s a perfect metaphor. Can you walk us through the six walls? AD: Absolutely. The first is male privilege: A dominant workplace culture that includes male gatekeeping, the boys’ club, and even the glass cliff, where women are set up in risky roles and then blamed when things go wrong.   AW: And that first wall, male privilege, forms the foundation for the others, right?   AD: Exactly. The other five barriers build on that base.   AW: Before you go further, I want to encourage listeners to do a mental checklist as they hear about these barriers. Ask yourself: Have I experienced this? Have I observed this?   AD: That’s great advice. For context, we developed a tool, the Gender Bias Scale for Women Leaders, while researching. It identifies the six barriers and is available on my website as a quick self-assessment.   AW: Fantastic. I’ll include that link in the show notes. AD: The second wall is disproportionate constraints. Women are in the workplace, but with limitations, fewer choices, more scrutiny. From career paths to communication, women face muted voices and are held to unequal standards. Their appearance, tone, and behavior are under constant watch. The third is insufficient support: lack of mentorship, sponsorship, and access to informal networks. Women are often left out of spaces where decisions are made. One insight from my dissertation: the most confounding barrier for women was unsupportive leadership. Being hired, but not backed when challenges arise, is demoralizing.   AW: That’s especially confusing. “You hired me. Why aren’t you supporting me?”   AD: Exactly. They couldn’t make sense of that. The fourth wall is devaluation. Women’s contributions are diminished. Salary inequality is one example. Others include being interrupted, called pet names, or not addressed by their professional titles. And there’s office housework (taking on tasks like organizing lunch or cleaning the fridge) without recognition.   AW: Linda Babcock’s work on “non-promotable tasks” comes to mind.   AD: Yes. These tasks are necessary but should be shared. Better yet, hire admin staff to handle them.   AW: Leaders must ensure tasks are equitably distributed. AD: Right. The fifth glass wall is hostility. Harassment, discrimination, and, yes, female hostility. People often ask whether women in the workplace are worse than men. I don’t know if that’s true, but when women don’t support other women, it hurts more. We expect solidarity from each other. When another woman blocks your opportunity, it feels more shocking.   AW: Can you talk about the queen bee phenomenon and female-only versus mixed-gender dynamics?   AD: Yes, and the sixth and final wall is acquiescence. After repeatedly hitting barriers, women may give up. They stay silent, limit aspirations, or leave entirely. Not because they’re incapable, but because the emotional toll is too high.   AW: So we’re talking to women, allies, and leaders; people who can help create equitable, productive, happy workplaces.   AD: Exactly. AW: Let’s shift to communication. One strength of your book is the vocabulary. You and Leanne coined many terms to describe these phenomena.   AD: Yes. When we couldn’t find terms in the literature, we created them. For example, role incredulity: assuming a woman isn’t in charge. A director mistaken for an assistant. A physician assumed to be a nurse.   AW: One of my clients is a global CEO, and people often assume she runs just the Canadian division. It’s a classic case.   AD: Yes. It’s often unintentional, but impactful. That moment can change a person’s perception. Another term is credibility deficit: women’s statements aren’t believed unless confirmed by someone else. My co-author Leanne once had a man turn to her husband to verify what she said, even though she was the expert.   AW: That example stuck with me. What about terms like mansplaining and he-peating?   AD: Mansplaining: Explaining something to a woman in a condescending way. He-peating: A woman’s idea is ignored until a man repeats it and receives credit. If done intentionally, that’s called bro-propriating.   AW: The intent matters. Sometimes it’s unintentional, but still harmful.   AD: Right. One of the biggest issues is interrupting. Men’s voices are privileged. They’re taught it’s acceptable to dominate conversations. If you’re interrupted repeatedly, especially by peers, it undermines your credibility.   AW: I coach women through this all the time. They need strategies, from jokes to private conversations, to enlisting allies.   AD: Yes. Sometimes the most effective approach is pulling someone aside, assuming positive intent, and addressing the pattern.   AW: Let’s talk about a story from a workshop participant. A senior OB-GYN received feedback that she was difficult. She believed female nurses were biased against her.   AD: That’s the status-leveling burden. Women in higher roles often go above and beyond (baking cookies, being extra nice) to gain cooperation from other women. It’s about navigating the contradiction between gender and organizational hierarchies.   AW: Leaders should be aware and provide training so teams understand these dynamics.   AD: Yes. Raising awareness helps people recognize patterns and adjust their behavior.   AW: You mentioned experiencing this personally.   AD: Yes. I had to spend extra time connecting with a secretary who didn’t support me. In the end, what changed things was her retirement. I even sent male colleagues to ask for things because they’d be more successful.   AW: It’s about recognizing the situation and working around it strategically. Let’s talk about flip it to test it.   AD: A simple but powerful tool from sociologist Kristin Pressner. If you say, “Maria is too assertive,” flip it: “Would I say Mario is too assertive?” Probably not. It reveals gender bias in assumptions.   AW: Great for self-checking and for leaders in hiring or evaluations.   AD: Exactly.   AW: What’s your take on Adam Grant’s article about women using “weak” language strategically?   AD: His mistake was calling it weak. It’s not weak, it’s smart. Women are adapting to navigate male-normed environments. Maybe men should adopt these techniques, too.   AW: Like imposter syndrome. Maybe men should question themselves more!   AD: Yes. These strategies make women effective communicators.   AW: Tell us about your next book, Excuses, Excuses.   AD: It explores six myths about why women are never “just right” at work, excuses based on age, appearance, race, etc. The subtitle is The Six Myths Why Women Are Never Quite Right at Work and How We Can Shatter Them. Many of these judgments are contradictory: too quiet, too outspoken, too young, too old. It’s not about the woman. It’s about systemic bias.   AW: Sounds like a powerful follow-up.   AD: We aim to name these issues so they can be addressed.   AW: Let’s end with three rapid-fire questions. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?   AD: Introvert. I think before I speak, and I listen a lot. I believe introverts make great leaders.   AW: What’s your communication pet peeve?   AD: The expectation that women fluff up their emails with pleasantries. It’s time-consuming. With close colleagues, I skip it. But with others, I feel I have to include it so I’m not perceived as cold.   AW: Should men do more of that, too?   AD: Yes. It builds relationships and improves communication for everyone.   AW: Final question. Any books or podcasts you’re recommending?   AD: Yes—Powerfully Likable: A Women’s Guide to Effective Communication by Kate Mason. It offers practical tips without telling women to change who they are. It’s about authentic, effective strategies.   AW: Thank you, Amy. Any final words for listeners?   AD: Gender bias is solvable. It takes all of us working together. And if you’re experiencing bias, remember: it’s not about you. It’s a systemic issue. Don’t take it personally. Strategize and persist.   AW: Thank you, Amy. I learned so much from our conversation.   AD: Thank you for having me.   AW: Most of my guests are doing good in the world, but Amy truly stands out. Her research and advocacy are making workplaces better. As promised, here are the three takeaways I want to reinforce: Vocabulary: Learn and use terms like glass walls, role incredulity, credibility deficit, housekeeping duties, non-promotable tasks, mansplaining, he-peating, and bro-propriating. Labeling helps make bias real, and solvable. Female hostility: It hurts more when it comes from other women. This isn’t about blaming. It’s about raising awareness and fostering solidarity. Intentionality: Bias is often unintentional, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore it. Consider whether a private or public conversation is appropriate. Thank you again, Amy. And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review the podcast. It helps others discover us.   Talk soon!   The post Gender Bias and Communication in the Workplace: 6 GLASS WALLS with Dr. Amy Diehl (ep. 189) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Explore how to elevate your communication using AI beyond basic tasks. Discover three advanced strategies to deepen audience connections and refine your messaging. Learn to blend AI seamlessly into your workflow while retaining authenticity. It's time to unlock the full potential of AI for enhanced communication effectiveness!

Explore 10 communication habits that can seriously damage your credibility. From the pitfalls of apologetic language to the frustration of jargon overload, these bad habits can undermine your message. Gain insights from Dr. Andrea Wojnicki on how to communicate with confidence. Plus, discover helpful strategies and a downloadable checklist for evaluating and improving your speaking style. It's time to ditch those distracting habits and enhance your communication effectiveness!

Discover how to elevate your elevator pitch with a dynamic 3-point framework designed for authentic communication. Learn the importance of personalized messaging and empathy to make meaningful connections. This approach empowers you to engage confidently during high-stakes conversations, ensuring you leave a memorable impact. Say goodbye to scripted pitches and embrace a tailored style that resonates with your audience!

Looking for guidance on how to ace your job interview? Andrea shares an interview preparation checklist, focused on your preparation before the interview, your communication during the interview, what to do after the interview, and how to answer specific Qs. You can download the free downloadable checklist at talkabouttalk.com/interview RESOURCES The “Ace Your Interview Checklist” free download: https://talkabouttalk.com/interview Talk About Talk podcast episodes focused on boosting your confidence: Ep.158 – 7 Ways to Boost Your Confidence & Your Credibility Ep.83 – Let’s Talk Imposter Syndrome Ep.169  – Communicate with Confidence – Mental Preparation CONNECT WITH ANDREA  Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ LinkedIn Talk About Talk:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Newsletter:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/   TRANSCRIPT Do you have any memorable interview stories? Any epic fails—either as the interviewer or the interviewee? I do. And while it wasn’t exactly a disaster, it still haunts me. This story takes place when I was finishing my doctorate and actively looking for a faculty position. I was in my early 30s, super keen, and well-prepared. Most of my first-round interviews were held back-to-back at a conference hotel—efficient, intense, and generally successful. I turned most of those interviews into second-round invitations. But not all of them. There was one interview that didn’t go well. In fact, it was a complete miss. And to this day, I still think about it. When the “H-bomb” backfires This interview was with a state school in the U.S. I walked into the room and was met by two middle-aged white men. As soon as they looked at me, they exchanged a glance… and then rolled their eyes. One of them said, “You probably wouldn’t accept a job here anyway. But why don’t you tell us about yourself and why you want to work here?” Yep—the H-bomb. That’s what we call it when the Harvard credential backfires. In hindsight, I should’ve stood up, thanked them for their time, and walked out. But I didn’t. I stayed. For the full 45 minutes. And let them grill me. It. Was. Torture. Have you ever wanted to walk out of an interview? Walking out of an interview is a bold move. And honestly, staying was probably the right call. What if those two professors later talked to faculty at another school and said I walked out mid-interview? Still, that moment sticks with me as my worst interview ever. And here’s the kicker—I hadn’t even opened my mouth, and they had already decided they didn’t like me. Even great interviews can be stressful Even when the interviewer wants to hire you, job interviews can be incredibly anxiety-inducing. That’s why, in this episode, we’re covering four key things to help you ace your next interview: How to prepare before the interview How to communicate during the interview What to do after the interview How to answer specific questions effectively Let’s dive in. Hi there! I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, but please just call me Andrea. I coach ambitious executives—just like you—to communicate with confidence and credibility. If you’re new here, check out TalkAboutTalk.com to learn more about: 1-on-1 executive coaching Corporate communication workshops Our podcast archive And our popular bi-weekly newsletter Want to nail your job interview? Lately, I’ve had a lot of clients in career transition ask me for help with interview skills. Good news: Interviewing is all about communication. And that’s exactly my sweet spot. To succeed in your next job interview, you need to confidently and clearly communicate your true and best self to the interviewer. So I created something just for you: Download the “Ace Your Interview” Checklist Yes, it’s completely free. And yes, it covers everything we’re about to discuss. Press pause and print it now, or listen and come back to it later. Either way, go to:  talkabouttalk.com/interview One more thing before we dive in: Confidence Before you focus on interview prep, there’s one other thing you need to manage: Your confidence. I won’t cover confidence in this episode, but don’t worry—I’ve got you. Check the show notes for links to other Talk About Talk episodes that focus on building confidence and managing nerves. How to prepare for a job interview: The four focus areas 1. Before the interview: Preparation is everything Start by researching the company, the role, and your interviewers if possible. Prepare examples that showcase your experience and align with the job description. Practice your self-introduction and key talking points. Bonus: Use the checklist I created to guide your prep. It’s all there. Download it now. 2. During the interview: Communicate strategically Your job in the interview is to communicate your value clearly and confidently. Be concise, positive, and focused. Use frameworks like STAR (Situation, Task, Action, Result) to structure your responses. And remember: Your personal brand matters. Every answer should reinforce who you are and what sets you apart. 3. After the interview: Follow up like a pro Always send a thank-you note—ideally within 24 hours. Reinforce your interest in the role, recap a highlight from your conversation, and reiterate how you can add value. A thoughtful follow-up can help you stand out and leave a lasting impression. 4. Answering specific interview questions Prepare for common questions like: “Tell me about yourself.” “What’s your greatest strength?” “Tell me about a time you failed.” “Why do you want to work here?” And don’t forget to prepare smart questions to ask the interviewer too. Curiosity signals engagement and critical thinking. Free resource: Ace your interview checklist Want to feel calm and confident before your next interview? Want a tool to help you stay on track during your prep? Grab the free downloadable checklist here: talkabouttalk.com/interview Use it to prep for your next big opportunity—whether it’s your dream job, a board seat, or an internal promotion. One last reminder: If you’re on the job market, download the ace your interview checklist at talkabouttalk.com/interview. If you found this episode helpful, please: Subscribe to the Talk About Talk podcast Leave a review—I read every single one Share this episode with someone who’s interviewing Thanks for listening—and as always… Talk soon. The post How to Ace Your INTERVIEW (ep.185) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

#BeYourSelfOnPurpose: Five words packed full of meaning. Andrea shares the power of developing your strong unique personal brand by doing two things: 1) being yourself, 2) on purpose. You’ll also learn three specific contexts when you can put this mantra into action. CONNECT WITH ANDREA  Website: TalkAboutTalk.com LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ LinkedIn Talk About Talk:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ Newsletter:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/   TRANSCRIPT Recently, I hosted a live virtual webinar on personal branding—and I have to say, it went really well. Now, my corporate workshops and webinars usually go great, but this one felt different. I was vibing, and I could tell by the audience’s reactions and questions that they were really getting something valuable out of it. After the webinar, I received a ton of positive feedback. One message stood out: a woman messaged me on LinkedIn almost immediately. She told me she takes her dry erase whiteboard very seriously—it’s where she puts her goals, meeting notes, follow-ups. After the session, she erased everything on it and wrote just five words: Be Your Self On Purpose. Then she sent me a photo. I was floored. A couple hours later, I posted the webinar video on LinkedIn, and a senior executive I deeply respect commented with a hashtag: #BeYourSelfOnPurpose. That’s when I knew—this concept really resonates. It’s clear that being your self on purpose is an idea that sticks. So, in this episode, we’re going to double down on those five powerful words: Be Your Self On Purpose. You’re going to learn what it means, why it matters, and how you can apply it to build a strong, unique personal brand. Welcome to Talk About Talk – Episode #184: Be Your Self On Purpose Hi there! I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I help ambitious executives communicate with confidence and clarity so they can succeed and reach their career goals. You can learn more about me and all the coaching and resources I offer—one-on-one coaching, small-group bootcamps, corporate workshops, this bi-weekly podcast, and my newsletter—at TalkAboutTalk.com. And if we’re not connected yet on LinkedIn, I’d love to change that. Let’s Talk Personal Branding Before we dive into what it means to Be Your Self On Purpose, I want to briefly revisit the roots of personal branding and share a few definitions. In 1997, when I was a brand manager at Kraft Foods, I received a physical copy of Fast Company magazine. The cover looked like a box of Tide laundry detergent—but instead of “Tide,” it said “You.” The headline: “The Brand Called You” by Tom Peters. This article blew my mind. Peters didn’t invent personal branding, but he brought it into the corporate mainstream. He suggested that everything we apply to marketing products and services—differentiation, target markets, brand values—can and should be applied to ourselves. Personal branding was born. Fast forward to my time teaching MBA students at Rotman. At the end of every branding course, I would dedicate a class to personal branding. Why? Because everything we learned about branding applies directly to you. Another powerful definition comes from Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon: “Your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.” That’s a great thought experiment. Ask yourself: what are your stakeholders—your clients, your boss, your team—saying about you when you’re not there? If their perception doesn’t align with how you want to be seen, that just means you’ve got some work to do. That’s what personal branding is for. Then, during a podcast interview with marketing legend Seth Godin, I asked him how he defines personal branding. His response? “Your brand is what people think you’re going to do next.” Another brain explosion moment. This forward-looking definition adds a sense of momentum. It’s not just about your past—it’s about what people expect from you next. Taking Control: You Have Agency What’s missing in both Bezos’ and Godin’s definitions is agency. Yes, your brand is what others perceive—but you have the power to shape that perception. So here’s my definition: Personal branding is about being your self on purpose. Instead of passively going with the flow in your career, it’s about stepping into your power and making intentional choices. It’s about owning your reputation, your professional identity—your brand. Be Your Self. On Purpose. Let’s break it down: Be Your Self This is about being your authentic, whole, and best self. Not a different version of yourself depending on the context, but a strategic filter of what parts of you you choose to share. You are always you—but you emphasize different aspects depending on the situation. On Purpose This is where strategy and discipline come in. You’re not just letting things happen—you are intentionally reinforcing the parts of your brand that align with your goals. You are being thoughtful about how you show up. The Wardrobe Metaphor Here’s a great metaphor I first heard from Ron Tite: Think of your brand like your wardrobe. All your clothes are authentically you. But you choose what to wear depending on the day—movie date, big meeting, networking event. The same is true for your personal brand. You are always you, but you decide what to highlight in each situation. That’s being your self—on purpose. Expansive & Focused This idea might feel messy—and that’s okay. Human beings are complex. You are being expansive by embracing your full identity, and focused by strategically choosing what parts of your brand to share. That balance is where the magic happens. Three Ways to Practice Being Yourself on Purpose 1. Your Self-Introduction This is your chance to communicate who you are, what you’ve done, and where you’re going. Use the present-past-future framework and be strategic about what you share. Don’t just rattle off your job title—own your narrative. 2. Comments in Meetings Whether you’re a CEO or a new hire, how you contribute in meetings matters. Try framing your input like this: “Based on my experience in ___” or “With my expertise in ___.” This reinforces your value and strengthens your brand. 3. The Stories You Tell How you tell your story—especially career transitions—can either strengthen or weaken your brand. Be intentional. Tell the truth, but do it in a way that highlights your leadership style, your strengths, and what sets you apart. Final Thoughts Write these five words down: Be Your Self On Purpose. Put them on a sticky note, on your whiteboard, at the top of your to-do list. Let them remind you to show up as your best, most authentic self—strategically, intentionally, and unapologetically. If you want more coaching on personal branding, head over to TalkAboutTalk.com. You’ll find my podcast archive, my newsletter, and information on coaching and bootcamps. Just search “personal branding” in the search bar. That’s it for episode #184. Now go out there—and Be Your Self On Purpose. Talk soon. The post #BeYourSelfOnPurpose – Be Your Self On Purpose and build a strong personal brand (ep.184) appeared first on Talk About Talk.