Interior Integration for Catholics

Summary: In this episode, we explore the conventional secular and the traditional spiritual ways of understanding scrupulosity, bringing in the experts to define scrupulosity, tells us the signs of being scrupulous, speculate on the causes of the trouble, discuss that standard remedies in the secular and spiritual realms.  Then I share with you my views on it, looking at scrupulosity through an Internal Family Systems lens, grounded in a Catholic worldview.   We discuss how parts have different God images and the role of shame and anger in the experience of scrupulosity.   Description of Scrupulosity Suddenly my stomach tightens up, there’s a choking in my throat, and my torture begins. The bad thoughts come. . . . I want to drive them out, but they keep coming back. . . . It is terrible to be in a struggle like this! To have a head that goes around and around without my being able to stop it; to be a madman and still quite rational, for all that. . . . I am double. . . . at the very time that I am trying to plan what I want to do, another unwanted thought is in my mind. . . . Distracting me and always hindering me from doing what I want to do. --  Quoted in Albert Barbaste, “Scrupulosity and the Present Data of Psychiatry,” TheologyDigest, 1.3 (Autumn 1953) 182.Fr. William Doyle: Around 1900  “My confessions were bad. My confessor does not understand me, he is mistaken in me, not believing that I could be so wicked. I have never had contrition. I am constantly committing sins against faith, against purity. I blaspheme interiorly. I rashly judge, even priests. The oftener I receive Holy Communion, the worse I become,”  Around 1900My story just turned 19 -- terrible bout of scrupulosity.  Around sexualityJust started dating the first woman I might consider marryingPhysical touching -- romantic contact How far was too far? Thoughts of sex with her -- plagued me.  Do I break up with her?  How do I handle this? What was sinful, what was not?  Was I on the road to hell?  Was I putting her on the road to hell? I thought I was going crazy.  Review: I encourage you to review the last episode, number 86 -- Obsessions, Compulsions, OCD and IFS That episode went deep into obsessions and compulsions and  serves as a basis for today's episode.  Today's episode, number 87 is entitled Scrupulosity:  When OCD Gets Religion and it's released on December 6, 2021, St. Nick's Day. I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic and together, we are taking on the tough topics that matter to you.  We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.comOverview Start out with definitions of scrupulosity both from spiritual and secular sources, really want to wrap our minds around what scrupulosity is and the different types of scrupulosity. We will discuss the connection between scrupulosity and OCD -- discussion of OCD We will then move to the signs of scrupulosity -- how can you tell when there is scrupulosity? Then we will get into the internal experience of scrupulosity.  What is it like to experience intense scruples?  Had a taste in the intro, but we will get much more into that.  We will discuss what religious and secular experts have to say about the causes of scrupulosity Then what religious and secular experts have to say about the treatment of scrupulosity -- that most recommended therapy approach and the medications typically prescribed.  After we've discussed the conventional secular and spiritual approaches to treating scrupulosity, I will how I think about scrupulosity, the root causes of scrupulosity, and how scrupulosity develops and how it can be treated.  I will give you an alternative view, grounded in a Catholic understanding of the human person and informed by Internal Family Systems thinking.  Definitions:  You know how important definitions are to me.  We really want to make sure we understand what we are talking about.  Scruple comes from the Latin word  scrupulum, "small, sharp stone" -- like walking with a stone in your shoe.Ancient Roman weight of 1/24 of an ounce or 1.3 grams.    Something tiny, but that can cause a lot of discomfort.  Definitions from Spiritual Sources Fr. William Doyle, SJ.  Scruples and their Treatment  1897: Scrupulosity, in general, is an ill-founded fear of committing sin. Fr. Hugh O'Donnell:   Scrupulosity may be defined as a habitual state of mind that, because of an unreasonable fear of sin, inclines a person to judge certain thoughts or actions sinful when they aren't or that they are more gravely wrong than they really are… Scrupulosity involves an emotional condition that interferes with the proper working of the mind and produces a judgement not in accordance with object truth, but with the emotion of fear. Fr. James Jackson, article "On Scrupulosity" A very good definitionScrupulosity is an emotional condition, an ultra-sensitivity to sin, which produces excessive anxiety and fear from the thought of eternal damnation…This condition is a religious, moral and psychological state of anxiety, fear and indecision. It is coupled with extreme guilt, depression and fear of punishment from God. However, each person who suffers from it does so uniquely.Fr. Marc Foley:  The Context of Holiness: Psychological and Spiritual Reflections on the Life of St. Therese of Lisieux Excellent, very psychologically informed study of the Little Flower Not only the best psychological profile of St. Therese of Lisieux, but the best psychobiography of any saint from any author I've read. A very in-depth look at her mother, St. Zelie as well and the limitations and lack of attunement in the Martin family Highly recommended reading -- all of chapter 12 is on The Little Flower's scrupulosity.  Scrupulosity is an extremely painful anxiety disorder. It consists of annoying fear that one is offended God or could offend God at any moment and that God will cast her into hell. To protect yourself from eternal damnation, the scrupulous person dissects every thought, motive, and action in order to ascertain if she has send. And since she is deathly afraid that she might have sent, the scrupulous person seeks absolute certitude that she hasn’t send in order to assuage her fears. Definitions from Secular Sources Timothy Sisemore, Catherine Barton, Mary Keeley From Richmont Graduate University   Scrupulosity is a "sin phobia." Jaimie Eckert, Scrupulosity Coach:  Scrupulosity is where...

Join Dr. Peter to go way below the surface and find the hidden meanings of obsessions, compulsions and OCD.  Through poetry and quotes, he invites you into the painful, distressing, fearful and misunderstood world of those who suffer from OCD.  He defines obsessions and compulsions, discusses the different types of each, and evaluates two conventional treatments and one alternative treatment for OCD.  Most importantly, he discusses the deepest natural causes of OCD, which are almost always disregarded in conventional treatment, which focuses primarily on the symptoms.  Lead-in OCD is not a disease that bothers; it is a disease that tortures. - Author: J.J. Keeler  “It can look like still waters on the outside while a hurricane is swirling in your mind.” — Marcie Barber Phares Poetry or word picture (prayer of the scrupulous) Aditi Apr 2017 Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.  OCD.  That is what we are addressing today. Here is what OCD is like for Toni Neville -- she says:  “It’s like being controlled by a puppeteer. Every time you try and just walk away he pulls you back. Are you sure the stove is off and everything is unplugged? Back up we go. Are you sure your hands are as clean as they can get? Back ya go. Are you sure the doors are securely locked? Back down we go. How many people have touched this object? Wash your hands again.” Introduction We are together in this great adventure, this podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics, we are journeying together, and I am honored to be able to spend this time with you.  I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic and together, we are taking on the tough topics that matter to you.  We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.com Today, we are getting into obsessions and compulsions -- a really deep dive into what's really going on with these experiences.  I know many of you were expecting me to discuss scrupulosity today -- And you know what?  I was expecting I would be discussing scrupulosity well, but in order to have that discussion of scrupulosity  be well-founded, we really need to get into understanding obsessions and compulsions first.  I have to bring you up to speed on obessions and compulsions before we get into scrupulosity, and there is a lot to knowThe questions we will be covering about obsessions and compulsions. What are Obsession and Compulsions? Getting into definitions.  Also What are the different types of obsessions and compulsions, the different forms that obsessions and compulsions can takeWhat is the experience of OCD like?  From those who have suffered it.  Who suffers from obsessions and compulsions -- how common are they?  Who is at risk? Why do obsessions and compulsions start and why do they keep going? How do we overcome obsessions and compulsions?  How do we resolve them?  What does the secular literature say are the best treatments"  -- Medication and a particular kind of therapy called Exposure and Response PreventionAlternatives  Can we find not just a descriptive diagnosis, but a proscriptive conceptualization that gives a direction for healing, resolving the obsessions and compulsions  Not just symptom management.Definitions Obsessions DSM-5: Obsessions are defined by (1) and (2): Recurrent and persistent thoughts, urges, or impulses that are experienced, at some time during the disturbance, as intrusive and unwanted, and that in most individuals cause marked anxiety or distress. The individual attempts to ignore or suppress such thoughts, urges, or images, or to neutralize them with some other thought or action (i.e., by performing a compulsion). Not pleasurable Involuntary My compulsive thoughts aren't even thoughts, they're absolute certainties and obeying them isn't a choice. - Author: Paul Rudnick To resist a compulsion with willpower alone is to hold back an avalanche by melting the snow with a candle. It just keeps coming and coming and coming. - Author: David Adam Individual works to neutralize the obsession with another thought or a compulsion.  From the International OCD Foundation:  Obsessions are thoughts, images or impulses that occur over and over again and feel outside of the person’s control. Individuals with OCD do not want to have these thoughts and find them disturbing. In most cases, people with OCD realize that these thoughts don’t make any sense.  Obsessions are typically accompanied by intense and uncomfortable feelings such as fear, disgust, doubt, or a feeling that things have to be done in a way that is “just right.” In the context of OCD, obsessions are time consuming and get in the way of important activities the person values. Common Obsessions Sources What is OCD? Article by the International OCD Foundation on their website WebMD article How Do I Know if I Have OCD? By Danny Bonvissuto February 19. 2020 Northpointrecovery.com blog What Types of OCD Are There? Get the Breakdown Here by the Northpoint Staff from May 3, 2019 Article entitled Common Types of OCD: Subtypes, Their Symptoms and the Best Treatment by Patrick Carey dated July 6, 2021 on treatmyocd.com Contamination Body fluids --- blood, urine, saliva, feces -   I gave my baby niece a serious illness when I held her --  I'm sure I got a disease from using the public restroom.  Germs for communicable diseases -- may be afraid to shake hands, worried about catching gonorrhea Environmental contaminants -- radiation, asbestos Household chemicals -- cleaners, solvents Dirt If you put the wrong foods in your body, you are contaminated and dirty and your stomach swells. Then the voice says, Why did you do that? Don't you know better? Ugly and wicked, you are disgusting to me. - Author: Bethany Pierce Losing Control Giving in to an impulse to harm yourself --  I could jump in front of this bus right now.  Fear of acting on an impulse to harm others -- what if I stabbed my child with this knife? Fear of violent or horrific images in your mind Fear of shouting out insults or obscenities -- Fear of stealing things&nbsp...

 Join me as we discover explore all the elements of perfectionism, from its root causes to its surface manifestations, through an Internal Family Systems lens, grounded in a Catholic world view.  Through poetry, quotes, research findings, personal examples and the current professional literature, I pull together many strands into a unified whole to help you deeply grasp the internal experience of perfectionism.Intro The Quintessential Persona    Leanna Smith We are together in this great adventure, this podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics, we are journeying together, and I am honored to be able to spend this time with you.  I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic and together, we are taking on the tough topics that matter to you.  We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.comLet's get into answering the questions -- the who, what, where, when, why, and how of perfectionism.  This is episode 85 of the Interior Integration for Catholics Podcast it's titled:  Perfectionism:  Who, What, Where, When, Why, and HowPerfectionism -- a major, major problem for so many Catholics.   A major, major problem for so many of us.  Thomas Curran and Andrew Hill  2019 Psychological Bulletin Article:  Perfectionism Is Increasing Over Time: A Meta-Analysis of Birth Cohort Differences From 1989 to 2016 reviewed dozens of studies from a 27 year timespan all using the same instrument  the Multidimensional Perfectionism Scale by Hewitt and Flett 164 study samples comprising more than 41,000 college students in the US, Canada and Great Britain between 1989 and 2016 Results:  there is no doubt.  Perfectionism among college students is on the rise.  Between 1989 and 2016, the scores for socially prescribed perfectionism —  or perceiving that other have excessive expectations of me — increased by 33%. Other-oriented expectations — putting unrealistic expectations on others — went up 16%and self-oriented perfectionism — our irrational desire to be perfect — increased 10% The Who of Perfectionism -- the PartsThe What of Perfectionism -- What is it?  What are the different kinds of perfectionism, what are the elements?Where Does Perfectionism Come From Within UsWhen Does Perfectionism Get Activated?Why Does Perfectionism Start and Why Does it Keep Going?How Do We Overcome Perfectionism?  How do we resolve it?  Not just a descriptive diagnosis, but a proscriptive conceptualization that gives a direction for healing, resolving the perfectionism.  Not just symptom management, this is your cross nonsense.  There are real crosses that God gives us. Yes.  But those crosses fit well.  The crosses we impose upon ourselves do not fit well.   What -- What is perfectionism?  You know that I want precise definitions when we dive into deep topics together.  I think it's ironic that there is a lot of unclear, sloppy thinking about perfectionism by perfectionists.  Shining a bright clear light on it.  Definition of Perfectionism Brene Brown:  The Gifts of Imperfection:  Perfectionism is a self-destructive and addictive belief system that fuels the primary thought: If I look perfect, live perfectly, and do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize painful feelings or shame, judgment and blame Marc Foley O.C.D.  Editor of Story of a Soul: Study Edition  There is an unhealthy striving for perfection which psychologists call perfectionism. Perfectionism is the state of being driven to achieve a standard of perfection in an area of life that is fueled by either the fear of failure or the need for approval. This unhealthy striving is not the type of perfection to which God calls us. So you may have perfectionistic parts that would like to challenge me on this.  Your perfectionistic parts may say to me So, Dr. Peter, Mr. Catholic Psychologist, you want us to have low standards, huh?  You think that would be better, for us to be lazy, to be weak, to take our ease, to relax, to give up the fight, to be mediocre, to be lukewarm, huh?  Is that what you are saying?  Didn't St. Jerome say:  Good, better, best, never let it rest, 'till your good is better, and your better's best  First off, let's start with your quote.  Often attributed to St. Jerome, but there's no evidence for it in his writings: Fr. Horton addresses this alleged quote on his blog fauxtations.   September 26, 2016 post.  "Good, better, best: St. Jerome?" Oldest google books attribution is from 2009.  1904 Dictionary of Modern Proverbs 1897 Christian Work: Illustrated Family Newspaper.  Others attribute it to Tim Duncan, NBA all-star player, often considered the greatest power forward of all time.  I want you to pursue excellence.  Perfectionism is not the same thing as striving for excellence or a commitment to self-improvement. There is a critical distinction between striving for excellence and perfectionism.   Let's discuss what perfectionism is not.   Brene Brown:  Perfectionism is not self-improvement./ Perfectionism is, at it’s core, about trying to earn approval and acceptance  Most perfectionists were raised being praised for achievement and performance (grades, manners, rule-following, people-pleasing, appearance, sports). Somewhere along the way, we adopted this dangerous and debilitating belief system: I am what I accomplish and how well I accomplish it. Please. Perform. Perfect. Healthy striving is self-focused – How can I improve? Perfectionism – is other focused – What will they think?” End quote.  What will they think?Brene Brown  Daring Greatly: How the Courage to be vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent and Lead:  “Perfectionism is not the same thing as striving for excellence. Perfectionism is not about healthy achievement and growth. Perfectionism is a defensive move. It’s the belief that if we do things perfectly and look perfect, we can minimize or avoid the pain of blame, judgment, and shame.” Agnes M. Stairs, Smith, Zapolski, Combs, and Settles:  Clarifying the construct of perfectionism Assessment 2012  732 people 15 different perfectionism measures -- Factor analytic modeling Found nine different personality traits associated with perfectionism:  Need for Order, Need for Satisfaction of a Job Well Done, Details and Checking, Perfectionism toward Others, High Personal Standards, Black and White Thinking about Tasks, Perceived Pressure from Others, Dissatisfaction with Personal Performance, Reactivity to Mistakes.  9 personality trait...

In this episode, I lay out the whole mission and purpose of the Interior Integration for Catholics Podcast -- answering the six central questions so that you can make an informed decision about whether this podcast fits you and your needs.  Get the latest in my discernment about this podcast and the Resilient Catholics Community, where we are going.  Lead in:  [cue Sundancer music] Who, What, Where, When, Why and How -- those are the six questions we're addressing today about this podcast.  Why those questions?  It's all about fit.  It's all about being clear about the target audience for this podcast and whether or not you fit.  I'm putting all my cards on the table, total transparency, so that you can make an informed decision about whether you want to engage with me or not.  So let's ask the questions.  Who is this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast for -- yes, it's for Catholics, but it's only for a small number of Catholics, maybe about 3700 Catholics in the world.  How did I get to that number -- stay with me for the calculations later in this episode.  What is this podcast all about -- what is the mission, what is the purpose of the podcast?  Where does this podcast focus?  Spoiler alert:  -- Deep inside you, but you'll have to stay tuned to find out more about that…When:  what is the new frequency and episode length for this podcast?Why:  Why should you listen?  I'm asking you for time, attention, concentration and effort -- why should you engage with this podcast at all?  I'll be fleshing out all the reasonsHow:  How do we make it all happen with you, for you and in you?  Find out the answer to all of these questions in this episode of Interior Integration for Catholics, number 84, The Who, What, Where, When, Why and How of the IIC Podcast [cue intro music]Intro: Welcome to the podcast Interior Integration for Catholics, thank you for being here with me, I am honored to be here with you, and today we are discussing you and me and us and this podcast.  We are going to get all relational as we often do here.  Because this is a relational podcast.  I'm not just a talking head in podcastlandia, I'm a real person, you're a real person and I'm into real relationships.  I am clinical psychological Peter Malinoski and you are listening to the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast -- the IIC podcast for short).   Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the English-speaking Catholic world through our website soulsandhearts.com.  Check that out, soulsandhearts.com for so many great resources that bring psychology and Catholicism together in a way that is faithful to the truths of our Faith.  Let's get into answering the questions -- the who, what, where, when, why, and how of this podcast.  Who is the IIC Podcast For?  It's for You. Ideal listener If you have it all together, if you're sky high on life, if you continually leap from one pinnacle of natural excellence to an even higher summit of human greatness, bounding upward, always with grace and precision and a laser focus on perfection -- good for you. I'm happy for you and in awe of you.   But you don't need this podcast.  Let me put it this way.  This podcast is for the Catholic who admits he or she is hurting, struggling, a lost sheep, in need of help.This podcast is for you who are like me, who are very imperfect, wounded, harmed in various ways, who are confused and frustrated, who are weary, who are lonely, who are burdened in different ways.  It's for your parts. we are a unity but also a multiplicity.  We don't have a single, unified, homogenous, monolithic personality.   We have several or many parts, each one with its own personality.  This concept of parts of us is absolutely central to this podcast.  If this idea of parts does not appeal to you, you probably won't like these episodes.  I believe there were two major discoveries in psychology, one at the end of the 19th Century -- the discovery of the unconscious -- Freud popularized that.  And the other near the end of the 20th century -- the discovery of the multiplicity of self which Richard Schwartz popularized.  Definition of part:  Separate, independently operating personalities within us, each with own unique prominent needs, roles in our lives, emotions, body sensations, guiding beliefs and assumptions, typical thoughts, intentions, desires, attitudes, impulses, interpersonal style, and world view.  Each part also has an image of God and sense of identity, who you are.  Robert Falconer calls them insiders.  You can also think of them as separate modes of operating if that is helpful.  This podcast is especially for your inner outcasts, those parts of us that you reject -- inner lepers, inner tax collectors, inner Pharisees, inner critics, our inner prostitutes, the untouchables within us, our inner rebels, fugitives, inner vagabonds and bums, our inner abused children.  Our refugees, our inner imprisoned convicts the parts that don't get to see the light of day, the parts that may have never been loved by you or any other human being who walks the face of the earth.  As I've discussed in so many previous episodes, especially Episode 71: A New and Better Way of Understanding Myself and Others -- I firmly believe that the concept of a core self and these several or many parts helps us to make so much more sense of our experiences, helps to explain so much.  And as I laid out in Episode 73, Is IFS Really Catholic, I believe that with some modifications, IFS can be harmonized with our Catholic Faith.  St. Augustine, Confessions “My inner self was a house divided against itself.”  That's parts.  Romans 7:15  I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.It's not just about willpower Romans 7:18b  I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. This isn't about willpower -- Paul had amazing willpower.  It's not about the intellect.  Its about those two discoveries in psychology -- the unconscious and the fact that we have parts.  Openness and receptivity to learning and growing.This podcast is for you, you, the one who deeply desires an intimate, personal relationship with God and with Mary, even if  you struggle with it\You who want to be able to come to God our Spiritual Father and Mary our Spiritual Mother with childlike trust and complete confidenceOvercoming your natural-level impediments Anything that compromises our capacity to relate and love in the natural realm will compromise our capacity to relate and love God and Mary.  Period.  Full stop.  Invested in own human formation, and is motivated to grow Psychologically-minded Embraces the multiplicity/unity aspects of the human person and wants to relate better with self internally.  Willing to tolerate some suffering -- it will cost you to really engage with these podcasts Attention and concentration Experiential exercises Wants to love se...

Join me for a deep exploration of the ways our parts process grief in healthy ways, the back-and-forth alternating between focusing on the loss and looking at restoration.  Guided by the work of IFS therapist and author Derek Scott and by using a dramatized example of loss with resulting grief, we will explore the internal interactions among our parts that lead to such a multifaceted experience of grief.  We also examine the two paths of grief that Catholics can choose.  Lead-In Intro -- activation warning What you are about to hear is a fictional dramatization of a car accident and Brian Moreland's internal reactions -- the reactions of his parts - to that accident and its effects on him over time.  Listen with care and prudence -- if you have unresolved trauma responses surround a car accident, please be thoughtful about whether or not to continue. News Story:  [Insert News Intro music]:  And now out to James Fieldler, our roving KDTT reporter, coming to us live from the scene of a terrible accident earlier this evening, a really difficult story that we have been following for you.  James – what do you have for us? [background traffic and rain and truck backing]  Terry, I am here just off the shoulder of I-94 Westbound, about  four miles west of Miles City, near mile marker 142.  Earlier this evening, an eastbound Ford pickup crossed the median into oncoming westbound traffic, striking a Honda Odyssey minivan at full speed and sending it careening through the guardrail, and rolling down this shallow embankment.   In that minivan were a 37-year old man, a  33 year old woman, and four children ranging from about 9 to two years old.  From this angle, you can see how damaged this minivan was, nearly crushed as they are winching it up onto the wrecker.  Montana State police have just confirmed this was a fatal accident, that one of the children, about five years old has died of massive head injuries.  The man and two of the children have been airlifted to St. Alexius Trauma Center in Bismarck, no word on their condition right now.  That is tragic, James.  What do we know about the others, James? Terry, we have some good news, too.  The woman was able to walk away from the wreck.  EMTs used the jaws of life to break open the back of the van and rescue the other two children, who have also been transported by ambulance to Bismarck.  The  45-year old driver the pickup was shaken up and was taken to Holy Rosary Hospital in Miles City, apparently with minor injuries.  No one else was in the truck.   What do we know about the cause? The investigation is ongoing. As you can see, driving conditions were also difficult –  the rain coming down here.  There is some question about driver fatigue in the driver of the truck.  No word yet on any charges that might be filed, but it’s likely.  A source told me that the pickup driver’s license had been revoked for a second DUI.  There is no official word yet on whether alcohol or drugs were involved in this crash.   Thank you, James, and we will continue to follow this story for you.  Our hearts and thoughts go out to all those involved in the crash, we wish them a rapid recovery.  Now on to Jeff Springer with sports, and the surprising finish to the Griz’s matchup with the Idaho State Bengals.  Jeff, tell us what happened at Washington-Grizzly stadium today in the rain? [Cut to Intro MusicIntro We are together in this great adventure, this podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics, we are journeying together, and I am honored to be able to spend this time with you.  I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic and together, we are taking on the tough topics that matter to you.  We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.com Today's episode, number 83 is entitled The Internal Dance of Healthy Grief and it's released on August 30, 2021 Heard a reenacted story about Brian Moreland, and I’ll be bringing that story in throughout todays episode to add depth and examples to the concepts Review: I encourage you to review the last episode, number 82 -- the many faces of grief inside us. That episode goes over what happens to our parts when we experience grief?The experiences I'm about to describe are not the parts themselves. Definition of a part --  Separate, independently operating personalities within us, each with own unique prominent needs, roles in our lives, emotions, body sensations, guiding beliefs and assumptions, typical thoughts, intentions, desires, attitudes, impulses, interpersonal style, and world view.  Each part also has an image of God and also its own understanding of self.  More than just one factor More than just one emotion, more than just one desire or impulse Rather -- a whole constellation of these qualities that endure over time, even if the part is not in conscious awareness in the moment.  Adapted Dual Process Model of Bereavement Margaret Stroebe and Henk Schut originally the DPM in 1999 Death Studies article called The dual process model of coping with bereavement: rationale and description Derek Scott -- IFS Therapist, author and expert on grief adapted this model in his article Grief and IFS: Mapping the Terrain -- check that out at his website ifsca.ca two clusters of parts, two groups of parts.  one focused the loss -- looking back to the past, looking at what happened.One cluster of parts focused on  -- looking toward restoration -- looking to the future, managing the demands of life now.  Let's expand on these two clusters.  one cluster is oriented towards the loss -- those are the parts that IFS Therapist and Author Derek Scott introduced to us in the last episode.  Focus on experiencing grief Managers Disbelief Numbness Sadness Guilt Spiritual BypassingExiles Depression Missing/yearning Protest (anger) Guilt Powerlessness/despair/resignation.  Shamethe other cluster towards restoration -- These are new parts.  dealing with the new complexities in life for the bereaved that are occasioned by the lossReadjusting to the new reality -- conforms to Elisabeth Kubler Ross' stage of acceptance and Colin Parkes' phase of reorganization and recoveryActivities ...

Through a dramatic representation, quotes, and examples, I walk you through how six dimensions of what it means for you to love yourself and others.  By bringing in the pioneering work of IFS therapist Derek Scott, we will explore how different parts within you respond to grief and loss in so many different ways.  Lead in: Lead-in Intro Letter Ron's reactions Intro We are together in this great adventure, this podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics, we are journeying together, and I am honored to be able to spend this time with you.  I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic and together, we are taking on the tough topics that matter to you.  We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.com Today's episode, number 82 is entitled "The Many Faces of Grief Inside Us  and it's released on August 23, 2021 Heard a reenacted story about Ronald and Vivian Meerkamp, and I’ll be using that clip throughout todays episode to add depth and examples to the concepts In the last episode, Episode 81, we broached There is so much misinformation out there about grief.  So many myths, so many misconceptions to clear up.  Why is that?  We're going to answer that question with the professional research, the best of psychological theory, with Scripture, with poetry, with examples and with quotes to help you understand the experience of grief -- your grief and the grief of others.  Why should we learn about grief?  Earl Grollman sums it up like this: Grief is not a disorder, a disease or a sign of weakness. It is an emotional, physical and spiritual necessity, the price you pay for love. The only cure for grief is to grieve. If we love, we will grieve.  Part of loving well is grieving well.  If we flee from grief, we will also flee from love.    You can't love without eventually grieving Last episode, I mentioned how our understanding of grief can be limited by assuming we have a single, homogenous monolithic personality. Today I'm going to share with you a much deeper and richer way to understand grief. From Episode 72 What Keeps You from Loving?  Is it Really Only Your Vices?  Discussion of Dimensions of Understanding Others or Ourselves.  -- We will get into that more today.  0 Dimensions -- single point in space -- geometry, no dimensionality.  Personalizing it -- you are nothing to me.  No separate identity, not even really human, invisible -- the person doesn't exist for you.  “Love is not cold and what is cold is not love.” ― Marty Rubin “Science may have found a cure for most evils; but it has found no remedy for the worst of them all -- the apathy of human beings.”― Helen Keller “Indifference is more truly the opposite of love than hate is, for we can both love and hate the same person at the same time, but we cannot both love and be indifferent to the same person at the same time.” ― Peter Kreeft, Prayer For Beginners Examples: Emotional detachment:  Ron -- fear of loss.   1 Dimension -- line  Only one quality -- very self-referential, the person in orbit around me and my needs.  Often only a functional dimension, or not meeting a function “That politicians who smiled at us and kissed our babiesblue eyes shining with triumphwell knew we were fallinginto our graveskicked by themas they countedour votes.”― Alice Walker, Taking the Arrow Out of the Heart “What we do see depends mainly on what we look for. ... In the same field the farmer will notice the crop, the geologists the fossils, botanists the flowers, artists the colouring, sportsmen the cover for the game. Though we may all look at the same things, it does not all follow that we should see them.” ― John Lubbock, The Beauties of Nature and the Wonders of the World We Live in For Vivian:  In her pain and loneliness, part of her takes over reduces Ron to one dimension:  cold, distant, ignores me -- reduces Ron to one dimension -- in order to protect herself from him.  For Ron blended with his angry part who is protecting him from agonizing pain from abandonment:  Vivian is a Betrayer -- She betrayed me, she is a traitor, a backstabber, she hurts me.  Still very personalized, very self-referential2 Dimensions -- plane -- starts to be a little Less personal, less self-referential Cardboard Cutout-- person has a shape, not well understood.  Ron ignores me and is self absorbed.  But it's because of his job.  He shuts down emotions because of what he sees as a detective “It is a well-worn truth that cops grow callous, a cliché so tattered that it is even common on television. All cops face things every day that are so gruesome, brutal, and bizarre that no normal human being could deal with them on a daily basis and stay sane. And so they learn not to feel, to grow and maintain a poker-faced whimsy toward all the surprising things their fellow humans find to do to each other. All cops practice not-feeling, and it may be that Miami cops are better at it than others, since they have so many opportunities to learn.”  Jeff Lindsay, Dexter is Delicious Vivian is a betrayer and a traitor.  But she's misguided -- she's reacting out of ignorance and emotion and because she doesn't understand me. 3 Dimensions -- taking into account much more of the person, providing a more complete snapshot of a moment in time Person has A whole internal world Many dimensions Many competing values at one time. Needs -- attachment needs and integrity needs Emotions Belief.  Thought Intentions Desires Attitudes Impulses. relationships Maybe even multiple points of view inside at the same time.  With conflicts and polarizations inside --Vivian is betraying me and harming me and she's misguided, reacting out of ignorance and emotion, but she also really loves our kids.  And she's good at her job. Vivian has mixed reactions to me.  4 Dimensions -- out of basic geometry now and into physics.  The four dimension is physics...

If we love deeply, we're going to grieve deeply.  It's inevitable.  And it's that simple.  So together, let's understand and experience grief better in order to love better.  In this episode, I review the popular models of grief with their strengths and limitations, illustrating them through poetry, quotes, and evaluating them with the best of the psychological research. Lead-in:  We are going to start out with a simple truth.  We Catholics get close to people.  We get close to people We form deep, intimate bonds with our Parents, siblings, spouses, children, our friends -- all those we love.  Last weekend, I was at my grandson's baptism.  Tiny little guy, names William Peter.I'm not super sentimental, not one to just burst into intense emotion at the drop of a hat, but holding him and talking with him.  I could feel the bond developing.  He's really growing on me.  My first grandson.  William Peter.  I told myself I wasn't going to be one of those fawning grandfathers that shows the pictures around to everyone and prattles on about grandchildren, but here I am, bringing it up in a podcast episode.   I love that little guy.  I really do, I've been surprised at how quickly that all developed.  We form deep intimate bond with people.  And that's a great privilege, an honor, a sacred thing.  October 29, 2017 before the Angelus Prayer, Pope Francis Indeed, we were created to love and to be loved. God, who is Love, created us to make us participants in his life, to be loved by him and to love him, and with him, to love all other people. This is God’s “dream” for mankind. But in this life there's a difficult side to that.  The realities that entered the world with original sin. Inevitably, we lose at least some of these bonds, these connections -- in our fallen world, they are not permanent, they are temporary Parents die Some experience a romantic breakup -- or a divorce Estrangements, ties being cut And we experience the loss of someoneJandy Nelson succinctly sums up the mystery when she writes “Grief and love are conjoined—you don’t get one without the other.” My Constant Companion By Kelly Roper Grief is my companion,It takes me by the hand,And walks along beside mein a dark and barren land.How long will this lonesome journey last,How much more can my weary heart bear?Since your death, I’ve been lost in the fog,Too burdened with sorrow and care.People tell me my sadness will fade,And my tears will reach their end.Grief and I must complete our journey,And then maybe I’ll find happiness again.  Talking to Grief by Denise Levertov Ah, Grief, I should not treat youlike a homeless dogwho comes to the back doorfor a crust, for a meatless bone.I should trust you. I should coax youinto the house and give youyour own corner,a worn mat to lie on,your own water dish. You think I don't know you've been livingunder my porch.You long for your real place to be readiedbefore winter comes. You needyour name,your collar and tag. You needthe right to warn off intruders,to considermy house your ownand me your personand yourself “So it’s true, when all is said and done, grief is the price we pay for love.” ― E.A. BucchianeriAnd we pay on a sliding fee scale as Orson Scott Card tells us “Life is full of grief, to exactly the degree we allow ourselves to love other people.” Grief -- after five episodes on suicide, it seemed like the next topic.  Stay with me as we investigate grief…Intro: Welcome to the podcast Interior Integration for Catholics, I am so glad you are hear with me for these moments together, thank you for spending the time.  As you know, I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic you are listening to the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, where we don't hesitate to take on the tough topics that matter to you.  We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.com Today's episode, number 81 is entitled "Grieving is the Price We Pay for Loving" and it's released on August 16, 2021 We are broaching the big topic of grief.  We touched on it briefly way back in episode 15, but now we're getting into much more detail.  There is so much misinformation out there about grief.  So many myths, so many misconceptions to clear up.  Why is that?  We're going to answer that question with the professional research, the best of psychological theory, with Scripture, with poetry, with examples and with quotes to help you understand the experience of grief -- your grief and the grief of others.  Why should we learn about grief?  Earl Grollman sums it up like this: Grief is not a disorder, a disease or a sign of weakness. It is an emotional, physical and spiritual necessity, the price you pay for love. The only cure for grief is to grieve. If we love, we will grieve.  Part of loving well is grieving well.  If we flee from grief, we will also flee from love.    You can't love without eventually grieving.  Our Lord modeled this for us: Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. John 11: 32-36 Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled; 34 and he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus wept. 36 So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” ] Our Lady Modeled this for us.  Mary at Calvary looking up at her beloved Son, innocent, yet accused, mocked, reviled, slapped, spit upon, beaten, whipped. crowned with thorns, forced on death march, and then nailed to a cross, bleeding and dying.  His disciples save John had abandoned him, the people had turned against him. Flesh of her flesh, bone of her bone, but yet also Almighty God, the second person of the Trinity, Love Incarnate going through his grief.  What was her experience?  I can hear her asking, in the words of the Good Friday Reproaches, My people, what has he done to you?  How has he offended you? Answer me!Alice Von Hildebrand:  We gain a dolorous awareness that being as weak as we are, we cannot...

Through dramatic reenactments, experiential exercises and the best of available resources, Dr. Peter brings you critical information to help you better love those near you who are struggling with suicidal thoughts and impulses.  Learn how to be a much better first responder in these situations and to be a bridge to additional resources for your loved ones who are considering suicide.   Lead-in:  Imagine a young man, a teenager you care about, one you really love, a family member or friend, or the son of a friend, comes to you, in distress, and he shares this with you -- listen closely as he tells you what's on his heart. [insert script]. So now you have this upset, desperate man in front of you, who wants to be dead.  What do you do?  How do you handle this situation?  But before we go there, let's start with you.  We created a scenario to evoke what might come up in real life when your encounter a loved one who is suicidal.  What do you notice going on inside you right now? What is happening in your body?Emotions?Assumptions or beliefs about yourself?Memories, desires, impulses.  Replay the last clipWhat are parts of you saying to you about you right now?Really pay attention to those messagesI will make a bold claim here -- the number one thing you struggle with in being a first responder to a loved one with suicidal levels distress is [drum roll]  your own internal experience.   The problem you have is not so much inside the distressed loved one. The problem you have is inside of you, deep within you. You get wrapped up in our own fear, shame, guilt, anger, or your own sense of inadequacy. Did you feel any of that that in this example, confronted with this teenager in such distress, who feels so strongly the desire to die? Did you feel uncomfortable, on edge, uncertain?  Anxious?  Ineffective, inadequate?  Responsible, but not knowing what to do?  Did you experience any self-criticism?  Any of those experiences? If so, you’ve come to the right place.  I can help with that.  [Insert Intro] Intro: Welcome to the podcast Interior Integration for Catholics, I like being together with you in this whole adventure, as we learn about suicide and what to do about it, all grounded in a Catholic worldview. I am Dr. Peter Malinoski,, passionate Catholic first and clinical psychologist as well, and you are listening to the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast.  Thank you for being here with me.  Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.com This is the fifth in our series on Suicide. In episode 76, we got into what the secular experts have to say about suicide. In episode 77, we reviewed the suicides in Sacred Scripture, in the Bible.  In episode 78, we sought to really understand the phenomenological worlds of those who kill themselves -- what happens inside?  How can we understand suicidal behaviors more clearly, dispelling myths and gripping on to the sense of desperation and the need for relief that drives so much suicidal behavior. And in the last episode, number 79, we took a deep dive into the devastating impact of suicide on the parents, spouses, children, siblings, and friends who were left behind. Today's episode, number 80 is entitled "How to Help a Loved One Who is Suicidal." We are getting into the nitty-gritty of what do you do when someone you are close to is suicidal? In short, how do you love someone who is so distressed, so desperate, that they are seriously considering killing themselves?First a brief caveat -- I can't, in a single podcast episode, train you to be a crisis intervention specialist.  That takes dedicated training.  But you know what?  Most people with these suicidal levels of distress don't seek out crisis intervention specialists or therapists or counselors first.  They go to the people they know.  They go to the people whom they hope and believe will love them.  They go to you.  What you'll learn today is for your own information, to help you understand what's going on and how best to act as a first responder and a bridge to long-lasting help that can heal.  Love your neighbor as yourself.  Diliges proximum tuum tamquam teipsum. Inflection of dīligō (second-person singular future active indicative)  The second great commandment.  Love your neighbor as yourself. Diliges proximum  tuum.  Love is a verb, an action.  So what if our neighbor is the teenager from our lead in today?  How do we love a suicidal person?  How do we love her? Definition of Love -- Charity -- caritas.   Benevolence -- bonae voluntatis in Latin, good will.  Capacity Understanding the other Operating in the mode of the receiver Dependent on us understanding ourselves Mistaking what is coming from who Unconsciousx Capacity to choose the good -- Freedom. Well-governed self Regulated Organized Calm. Compassionate Good human formation Possessing virtues Possessing the knowledge and expertise in a situation.  Constancy.  Need peace and interior integration'Being vs. doing.CCC 1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy.  Loving all their parts Definition of parts Suicidal distress makes so much more sense if we understand each person not as a uniform, monolithic, homogenous, single personality, but rather as a dynamic system including a core self and parts.  That helps to explain so much, including shifts over time.  Definition of Parts:  Separate, independently operating personalities within us, each with own unique prominent needs, roles in our lives, emotions, body sensations, guiding beliefs and assumptions, typical thoughts, intentions, desires, attitudes, impulses, interpersonal style, and world view.  Each part also has an image of God and also its own approach to sexuality.  Robert Falconer calls them insiders.  You can also think of them as separate modes of operating if that is helpful.  Not just transient mood states, but whole constellations of all these aspects.Unintegrated parts are not focused on loving othersUnintegrated parts can be exiledParts often have very different attitudes toward suicide.  Blending What is the key word here?  Blending.  

Dr. Peter brings you inside the inner world of so many parents, spouses, children, and siblings of those who died by suicide.  Through an imagination exercise, research, quotes from family members, and the Internal Family Systems model of the person, he invites you to a deeper understanding of other others experience a loved one's suicide.  Lead-in The world is full of ‘friends’ of suicide victims thinking ‘if I had only made that drive over there, I could have done something.’ —Darnell Lamont Walker  an artist; a writer, photographer, painter, and filmmaker. Ok, so we're continuing to discuss suicide here, we're taking on the tough topics And I want to start with a caution -- if you have lost a loved one to suicide, this episode may be really healing but it also may be really difficult.  If you are raw and struggling with a death, be really thoughtful about when and how you listen to this.  Pay attention to your window of tolerance and if it's too much right now, know that I respect that and I invite you to approach this topic in a way that is right for you, with help from a counselor, a spiritual director, a trusted friend, somebody you know.  Also, this imagination exercise will be hard to really get into if you're driving or engaged in other activities.  You can try it, but it's going to be really emotionally evocative for many people.  I suggest that you create a good space to engage with Imagine looking through your front window and seeing a police cruiser pull up.   One uniformed police officer gets out and a woman in plainclothes and they slowly walk to your door.  They ring the doorbell.  You open the door.  The officer removes his hat and tucks it under his arm.  The man seems nervous and clears his throat.  The woman introduces herself and tells you she is the victims' assistance coordinator or something like that for your county.  She asks your name.  You give it.  She asks if they can come inside and talk with you.  "We have very difficult news for you," she says with sympathy in her brown eyes.  Your heart stops beating.  The officer looks away, he looks like he'd be anywhere else, rather than here with you.  You let them in, now only vaguely aware of your surroundings, the shape your living room is in right now.  From the couch, in a gentle, matter-of-fact and very calm manner , the victim service coordinator tells you that the one you so love, you so cherish in the world is dead.  She names the name.  Yes, it's verified.  Yes, there is no mistake.  How, how did this happen you ask.  The officer explains the details of the citizens' reports called in earlier in the day. He was the first law enforcement officer on the scene, got there just before the EMTs, he had photographed the body, taken notes, conducted the brief investigation.  His throat catches.  There are tears in his eyes.  He hates this part of the job.  He tells a few details of the suicide scene.  You need to know this, he says, I'm required to tell you.  The woman reaches out her professional hand to you, offering her version of compassion.  Observe what's going on inside you right now, as you enter into this scene in your imagination.  What is happening in your body, your thoughts, you emotions, your impulses, your desires? Let yourself enter into this experience The victims' assistance coordinator is discussing a few details "Things I have to tell you" she says.  Standard protocols in situations like this.  Something about confirming the identity in the morgue, something else about an autopsy.  Something about who you can lean on in your support network family and friends.  Something about how hard this all is to take in at once.  And there are some government forms to fill out.  And a very nicely designed brochure entitled "Surviving the Loss of a Loved One to Suicide" that you get to keep for handy reference.  Do you have any questions at this point she asks?  Yes, we are sure it's your loved one.  The identification was very clear, there is no mistake.  Stay with this experience for just a minute if you can without losing your grounding. See if you can just accept what's going on inside -- and acceptance doesn't necessarily mean endorsement -- see if you can accept what's going on inside and really experience it -- the feelings, the impulses, the assumptions, the thoughts, the beliefs, the implications, whatever is coming up.   Do you notice different parts within you?  Different modes of being, maybe different messages coming to you? You may just have experienced a taste, a sip of the cup that 300,000 parents, siblings, children and spouses of those who die by suicide experience each year in the US, and millions worldwide.  Hang on to what you learned about your reactions, keep it in mind as we dive deep into suicides devastating impact on those left behind.  [Cue Intro Music] Opening Welcome to the podcast Interior Integration for Catholics, thank you for being here with me, it is good to be here with you, I am glad we are together as we face this difficult topic of suicide.  In episode I am clinical psychological Peter Malinoski and you are listening to the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, where we take on the toughest topics, the most difficult and raw themes that many people want to avoid.  Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website soulsandhearts.com This is the fourth in our series on Suicide. In episode 76, we got into what the secular experts have to say about suicide. In episode 77, we reviewed the suicides in Sacred Scripture, in the Bible.  In the last episode, number 78, we sought to really understand the phenomenological worlds of those who kill themselves -- what happens inside?  How can we understand suicidal behaviors more clearly, dispelling myths and gripping on to the sense of desperation and the need for relief that drives so much suicidal behavior. Today, in Episode 79, released on August 2, 2021 we will take a deep dive into the devastating impact of suicide on those left behind.  We'll go deep into the internal experience of the parents, spouses, children, siblings, and friends of those who killed themselves to see how they experienced suicide.  Alison Wertheimer: A Special Scar: The Experiences of People Bereaved by Suicide said this: [Suicide] has often far-reaching repercussions for many others. It is rather like throwing a stone into a pond; the ripples spread and spread.  Now, Alison, with all due respect, I think you're totally wrong about that.  It's not just ripples from a stone in a pond. For the spouses, parents, children, siblings and friends who are left behind to deal with the impact of a suicide it's more like a tidal wave resulting from an underwater earthquake than ripples from a stone.   Linda Lee Landon -- Author of Life after Suicide said this, which is much more on the money:  Suicide creates a monstrous emotional upsurge of sha...

Lead-in Almost no one understands suicide very well.  Almost no one.  Some of you might say -- but Dr. Peter, I've been really down and out.  I've been really suicidal.  I've been there.  I lived it.  Not gonna argue with you about having been suicidal. But having intense feelings, almost irresistible impulses toward suicide, constant suicidal thoughts -- that doesn't mean you understand suicide.  Not at all.I don't think most people who have attempted suicide really understand their experience.  I don't think most therapists really understand suicide.    Why ? Because we're afraid to really enter into what is behind suicide.  We don't want to go there.  We're terrified of what lurks underneath.  We have parts of us that don't want to understand.   Lauren Oliver, Delirium “Suicide. A sideways word, a word that people whisper and mutter and cough: a word that must be squeezed out behind cupped palms or murmured behind closed doors. It was only in dreams that I heard the word shouted, screamed."And I'll go further than that.  And it's not so much because we're afraid of what we'll find in another person, a friend or relative or colleague.  It's because we are terrified that finding the darkness inside of others will wake up our own sleeping giants of darkness.  The darkness inside us.  The terror inside us.  That's why we avoid, why we distract, why we skirt the edges of this topic. Benjamin Franklin knew this:  Nine men in ten are would-be suicides   -Poor Richard's Almanack.  Freud popularized it in 1920 -- book the Pleasure Principle.   -- he discussed the death drive: the drive toward death and destruction, often expressed through behaviors such as aggression, repetition compulsion, and self-destructiveness.  Death drive or drives went by the name Thanatos -- the Greek god personified death. Caught a lot of flak for it, then and now.  Not really widely accepted.  I think he was on to something.  Something we don't want to think about others -- that they have drives toward self-destruction.  It's something that we don't want to admit about ourselves.  If we are really honest with ourselves in looking at suicide we would realize, with John Bradford There but for the grace of God go I. We would give up our false presumptions about our own strength and our own natural resiliency.  We would realize, with Shakespeare's Lord Chancellor in Henry VIII “We all are men, in our own natures frail, and capable of our flesh; few are angels.” ― Lord Chancellor William Shakespeare, Henry VIII We would understand Mahatma Ghandi when he said: “If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide.” We would have a lot less judgement about the souls and experience of those who killed themselves.  Yes, the action of suicide is wrong, gravely wrong, and we'll discuss that in next week's episode.  We're not minimizing the gravity of the act -- I'm talking here about the phenomenological experience of those on the brink of self-destruction and why they are there.  And we would understand something about the spiritual dimensions, the dark spiritual powers at work in suicide as well.   I could be wrong about this, but I don't think you really have any accurate idea about suicide.  Suicide is one of the most misunderstood of human actions.  Because we want to avoid the churning darkness, the despair, the hopelessness, the alienation, the trauma within us, we don’t want to see it in others.  And if someone near is suicidal, we know, we know instinctively that he is tapping into his despair, his hopelessness, his alienation.  We know that our suicidal is really in the grip of her trauma and her isolation, and her excruciating pain.  And our natural response -- is to flee.  To get out of dodge.  To protect ourselves.  We rationalize it -- I'm not a professional, I'm not a counselor, I don't know what to do with all of this intensityOr we stay in there, we force ourselves to stay in relationship, feeling really inadequate, not wanting to go too deep, not wanting to screw it up -- and in our timidity and fear, we actually aren't very helpful. OK --  I will grant you that you don't really know what to do.  And I get it that you're afraid -- maybe terrified.  OK.  This is a tough issue.  Suicide is a tough issue.  And tough issues are what we specialize in here.  [Cue music]Intro Welcome to the podcast Interior Integration for Catholics, thank you for being here with me, thank you for making it through the lead in and not fleeing from this episode.  I'm glad you and I are in this together.  And it's going to be OK.  By God's grace, together we can handle, we can work with, we can work through this topic of suicide.  We'll do it together.  I am clinical psychological Peter Malinoski and you are listening to the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, where we take on the toughest topics, the ones others don't want to touch, and we go really deep with them.  Why?  Not out of some kind of idle curiosity.  Not out of disorder curiosity, out of some kind of psychological voyeurism.  No.  We go there in this podcast because we are working on ourselves.  On our own human formation, shoring up the natural foundation for our spiritual lives, so that we can enter into loving union with God.  That's why.  It's about removing the psychological barriers you have to a much deeper intimacy with God the Father, Jesus the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Blessed Virgin Mary, our Mother. In the last episode we looked at specific cases of suicide in Sacred Scripture.  This is episode number 78, released on July 26, 2021, entitled The Desperate Inner Experience of Suicidality.  We are going to enter into the phenomenological world of the suicidal person.  Why?  Why do we do that?  Why do that? Two answers.  The second answer is for going into all of this depth on suicide is so that you and I can love.  So that we can love others who are struggling with this -- and there are so many.  Franklin estimated 90%.  Nine men in ten are would-be suicides.  I think he's right, even though the vast majority of those don't even know there's a struggle going on inside them.  I think Benjamin Franklin knew about the latent potential in most people.Freud:  Thanatos.  The Death Drives.  Freud knew.  For all his faults and follies, Freud knew something about the depth of pain in people's souls.  The pain that lives in the unconscious.  Locked away, at least for a time.  Unnoticed, at least for a time.  The first answer:  Is so that we can be known and loved.  That we can accept others knowing us, and us knowing ourselves.  1 John 4:19  We love, bec...