Reimagining Justice

Each Reimagining Justice episode covers issues at the intersection of law, social justice and innovation. You will enjoy it if you are someone who hopes to improve people’s experience of the law through new ways of thinking and doing. Welcome to episode 40 where the tables have been turned, the interviewer is Walkley award winning journalist The Wandering journo Nance Haxton and the guest is me! After years at the ABC, and a stint as Griffith university’s journalist in residence, Nance is now a freelance podcast producer with podcasts including “Streets of Your Town”, Remarkable Tales and The Gender Card (link to her website in the show notes). The core topic of this episode is the Churchill Trust fellowship research I undertook from December last year to February this year when I met global leaders in justice innovation just before Covid19 changed the world. I outline what a Churchill fellowship is exactly, why I applied, the process involved and the reasons I was a successful recipient. I share some of my personal and professional motivations for the research choices, where I went and who I met. There were some challenges along the way and it was a feat of organisation to be travelling every 3 or 4 days, preparing for meetings and synthesising all the information, and this challenge has continued since returning home and writing the report. Having said that, there were many highlights and I share those, as well as the key factors for success of the outstanding projects I experienced firsthand. The report from the research will be available soon. It is broken into 8 themes (which I set out in this episode) across 3 key areas - Information about projects having the most impact; Practical strategies for duplicating that success; and Key recommendations for moving the conversation about justice innovation forward in Australia, which are likely to be controversial to some. Nance ensured I didn’t escape providing my definition of legal innovation and my goals for the future, and drawing on her extensive experience as a journalist, we covered the very important topic of the impact of Covid19 now and into the future. You will want to tune in if you are curious about how human centred design can improve systems and processes, best use cases for digital innovation, why multidisciplinary collaboration is important and how legal education can equip all of us to deal with future challenges. Neota's no-code app-building tool Canvas, enables you to prototype a functional web application capable of sophisticated reasoning and complex outcomes to ensure your legal expertise can be accessed online anywhere, 24/7. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to automate any aspect of their services. There is no better time to transform your legal services to digital and right now Neota is offering a 30-day free trial of Canvas. Links: Winston Churchill Trust Upsolve MADE Nance Haxton Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In episode 39 I speak with Jon Cina, Associate Director, Access and Equity at Victoria Legal Aid (“VLA”). In this role since 2016, Jon oversees the legal help contact centre, funding to Victorian community legal centres, support and innovation in the sector all the while maintaining a focus on a whole of client approach to legal service delivery. VLA deals with a huge volume of inquiries each year and during this interview we discuss the approaches VLA is implementing to best respond to those needs. Jon studied law in Scotland and had various roles in UN War Crimes Tribunals in the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and East Timor. Once he moved to Australia, he managed an inquiry at the Victorian Parliament Law Reform Committee and in his roles as Assistant and Acting Director of Court support services at the Department of Justice and Regulation helped to make the court system more effective. Immediately prior to joining VLA Jon led the team that established the Victorian Mental Health Complaints Commissioner. Jon and I talked about VLA’s legal help online, formerly known as Orbit, and initially developed in conjunction with code for Australia using human centred design principles. We covered the challenges of the referral roundabout, managing user expectations, how there is no single solution that will apply to every user, collaboration across the sector and change management within the organisation; and the benefits that flow to the user and the organisation if you get things right. Jon shared how relying on data about how people use VLA’s website while keeping a very strong focus on impact actually determines the solutions, as well as learning from the past as VLA did in a very public way with the below the belt app. You should listen to this episode if you are interested in overcoming challenges that accompany any process design or redesign project, especially large ones in a public sector context. Neota's no-code app-building tool Canvas, enables you to prototype a functional web application capable of sophisticated reasoning and complex outcomes to ensure your legal expertise can be accessed online anywhere, 24/7. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to automate any aspect of their services. There is no better time to transform your legal services to digital and right now Neota is offering a 30-day free trial of Canvas. For more details, see the links in the show notes. Links: Victoria Legal Aid Below the Belt app case study Legal Design Lab Law, Technology and Access to Justice (Roger Smith) IndigenousX Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 38 I speak with Eduardo Gonzalez, who has had a variety of roles in his short career and who is now Project Manager with the Self-representation Litigation Network (“SRLN”). The SRLN is a network of professionals including judges, court administrators, the private bar, technologists and librarians all connecting in relation to access to justice and whose core work is to support collaboration and knowledge sharing. But Eduardo has also worked in legal design both as a consultant and at the NuLawLab at Northeastern University in Boston where he was involved in an exciting project using video games to educate self-represented litigants. For the last couple of years Eduardo has been an Access to Justice Technology fellow at Georgetown Institute for Technology Law and Policy, all experiences we discuss. We covered the challenges in collating. updating and sharing information in a meaningful way, and insights from the participants in the SRLN justice tech working group that Eduardo coordinates. I asked Eduardo towards the end of the interview to predict the future and he rises to the challenge. You will also be surprised to hear that he is able to draw a connection between doorknobs and self-represented litigants. We touched on a really fascinating subject that I haven’t covered in the podcast before now, which is surprising really considering the benefits, and the title about today’s episode gives you a hint about that. You should definitely listen to this episode if you are interested in applying user centric design principles or how to improve knowledge sharing in the interests of a better justice system. I met Eduardo in January and was impressed with his knowledge about the principles of justice sector innovation and his passion for it, and I suspect you’ll hear that coming through in this interview. Here’s Eduardo. Neota's no-code app-building tool Canvas, enables you to prototype a functional web application capable of sophisticated reasoning and complex outcomes to ensure your legal expertise can be accessed online anywhere, 24/7. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to automate any aspect of their services. There is no better time to transform your legal services to digital and right now Neota is offering a 30-day free trial of Canvas.  Links: Georgetown Institute for Technology Law and Policy SRLN NuLawLab RePresent Study Crafter Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

This is episode no. 37, with Associate Professor and Dean of law at Flinders University Tania Leiman in which we cover many highly current topics. From history to the future, looking back in order to improve how we move forward, skills for lawyers of the future, how technology has evolved to make the law more accessible, what law students should know about Australia’s place in the world and being a global citizen, how to increase legal literacy, the role of law in all our lives, how Flinders University is delivering all that in their new curriculum, the tension between doctrinal knowledge and skills development including the relevance of the Priestly 11, how regulation is meant to protect the consumer, the value of legal education and Tania’s position on legal innovation. Tania sees technology as a tool for promotion of human rights and social justice. In this interview she very clearly describes how law binds our society together and the important and interconnected role of law schools, lawyers and regulators. You should listen to this interview if you are a law student wanting to understand the skills you will need for the future, a lawyer interested in using technology to connect with your clients or the type of mindset you need to innovate your service delivery, an educator committed to providing the most value through the process of legal education or a regulator concerned about protecting the legal consumer. Through leading the implementation of the new law curriculum Tania is certainly an educator putting the student at the centre. Neota's no-code app-building tool Canvas, enables you to prototype a functional web application capable of sophisticated reasoning and complex outcomes to ensure your legal expertise can be accessed online anywhere, 24/7. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to automate any aspect of their services. There is no better time to transform your legal services to digital and right now Neota is offering a free 30-day free trial of Canvas. For more details, see the links in the show notes. Links: Flinders University Imperatives for Legal Education NuLawLab FLIP report Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

This episode no. 36 is with Program Manager of LawHelp Interactive at Pro Bono Net, Claudia Johnson. When in some states of America there are 27 forms to file for a simple divorce, we discuss where responsibility lies to make the law relating to housing, health, and family issues, more understandable for lay people, which is particularly important given the global rise in numbers of self-represented litigants. There’s been a theme going for the past few episodes around the use of document automation to make legal service delivery more efficient, but more importantly effective and scalable when it’s based on human centred design principles. Again in this episode we cover smart forms, use cases they’re best suited for and some they’re not - and importantly, how to decide. As Claudia says, “there are easy ways to use tech to magnify the goodness of law and show respect to your clients”. We also talked about Claudia’s project with Bay area legal aid which centralised intake for a large number of clients over a large area, from different language groups. This was a significant exercise in change management and Claudia shares her tips for success. Claudia spoke passionately about her work with the National Language Advocate Network, a group that works to promote non-discrimination on the grounds of national origin, and considering the diversity in America, the conclusions she’s reached about why materials aren’t available in many more languages. Claudia has an extensive career in innovative projects and you will learn a lot from her whether your work is in a commercial or community law context. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to automate any aspect of their services. The time has definitely come to transform your legal services to digital and at the moment you can sign up to a 30-day free trial of Canvas. For more details, see the links in the show notes. Links: Pro Bono Net LawHelp Interactive NY Times article Bay Area Legal Aid Rochelle Klempner Claudia Johnson blogs on “Legal Services Policy Research and the Elephant in the Room” National Language Advocate Network (N-LAAN) Standards for Language Access in Courts Best Practices for Access-Friendly Court Electronic Filing Tim Baran’s interview Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 35, I speak with New Orleans based lawyer Amanda Leigh Brown. Amanda is founder and Executive Director of Langiappe Law Lab, a legal aid technology non-profit serving Louisiana’s justice community by empowering the public with legal information and helping legal service providers do their work better. Throughout her career Amanda has worked on apps that assist people after disasters, a state-wide portal system providing information and referrals and practical and ethical guidelines to use when developing AI. We touched on the importance of data and the biggest challenges to any project and Amanda shared the differing responses she received to the online legal information portal. On a personal level she shares how she first developed an interest in tech and the influence of law school on her career choices. One of the things I found most interesting about this conversation was the impact on her of her experience at Microsoft. Of course the pandemic has spurred Amanda on to even more action and you can hear about how - in a very short time - she developed a rent relief app, government subsidies navigator and leveraged an existing platform to enable people to find legal assistance. Speaking of apps that can be developed quickly, with Neota's no-code app-building tool Canvas, you will be able to prototype a functional web application capable of sophisticated reasoning and complex outcomes within minutes to ensure your legal expertise can be accessed online anywhere, 24/7. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to automate any aspect of their services. The time has definitely come to transform your legal services to digital and at the moment you can sign up to a 30-day free trial of Canvas. For more details, see the links in the show notes. Neota Logic is also a member of ALTA, the Australian Legal Technology Association. ALTA provides a community to Australian legal technology companies for information sharing, collaboration and building the presence of Australian legal technology on the global stage and is holding a virtual conference at the end of this week, with some great sessions and speakers. Links: Lagniappe Law Lab Rent relief app Economic relief navigator Legal Navigator project Justice for all project ALTAcon Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 34, I speak with Sydney-based lawyer Carly Stebbing who established Resolution 123 - a law firm using technology and flexible work to deliver employment law services to employees in a fast, simple and affordable way. Carly has over 13 years of employment law experience working for employer associations, law firms and volunteering at community legal centres. The fact that she has worked for employers means she has the benefit of knowing how employers think and what their lawyers will be advising them. Carly is a Flexible Workday Ambassador and has numerous awards, winning law firm Innovator of the Year in last year’s Women in Law awards. This episode covers a lot of ground and will have wide appeal, especially if you’re interested in how to run a client focused firm for the everyday person while incorporating technology into your business model. Carly shares the concerns that initially prevented her from starting her firm, and the factors that came together to mean she eventually did take the leap from a secure position as partner to start-up founder in a relatively untested market. What Carly has come to learn is that there is demand for a firm offering legal services in the way she’d imagined and that the missing middle is a large and largely untapped legal market. Of course right now employment is a big issue facing our country and around the world and so we also talk about where and how she is sharing information that will most effectively assist workers to make informed choices and advocate for their rights. Those of you interested in legal design will be curious about that part of the interview. Resolution123 has adopted a very agile approach to shift quickly to address employment law matters which have arisen out of the pandemic, which I have to say is no small thing. You might get some ideas here about how to adjust some of your services to meet the current needs of your clients. Carly was very open in discussing the challenges of managing client expectations for affordable legal services and about the importance of having realistic expectations of what can be achieved through technology. This episode brought to you by Neota Logic. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to rapidly build applications that automate any aspect of their services. The time has come to transform your legal services to digital. You can sign up to a 30-day free trial of Neota's rapid no-code app-building tool, Canvas. Within minutes you can prototype a functional web application capable of sophisticated reasoning and complex outcomes and ensure your legal expertise can be accessed online anywhere, 24/7. Links: Resolution123 FLIP report QLS Innovation committee Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 33 I speak with Quinten Steenhuis, Clinical Fellow at Suffolk University Law School doing what I would describe as ground-breaking work through a project responding to the covid19 crisis by bringing essential legal services online. But before this project, as a senior housing attorney and systems administrator at Greater Boston Legal Services Quinten had developed MADE, an effective legal tech product assisting people with eviction proceedings. He also runs his own consulting business Lemma Legal focusing on user-facing technology projects. You’ll no doubt hear the excitement in my voice as we discuss MADE and the current document assembly line project which needs many adjectives to describe it because it’s ticking so many boxes. It’s global, responsive, innovative (of course), collaborative, necessary and open source. And Quinten told me that they are still looking for volunteers so if you’re interested follow the links in the show notes. And another thing that will be really interesting to you even if you aren’t a community lawyer but one of the many innovative lawyers listening is the information Quinten shared about the process of starting, testing and implementing a document automation project. There are significant differences between the design of client facing products and internal information systems and we cover this including the legal information/advice issue. You will gain insight into the benefits to your business of these kinds of approaches, including clients’ ability to access information after-hours and the time savings, which will consequently enable you to spend time assisting more clients or with your existing clients on higher value tasks. I’m very grateful to Neota Logic for sponsoring the podcast. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to rapidly build applications that automate any aspect of their services. This episode brought to you by Neota Logic. Links: The Document Assembly Line Project MADE Lemma Legal Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 32 I speak with Jennie Pakula, Manager of Innovation & Consumer Engagement at the Victorian Legal Services Board and Commissioner. We covered a lot of ground in this interview, charting the role of regulator from traditional disciplinarian to modern stakeholder solving challenges of both clients and lawyers; examples of effective uses of technology in the profession; and the purpose of a regulatory inbox. We covered the kinds of issues lawyers are looking to professional and regulatory bodies for guidance upon, including the whole legal information/advice divide and where issues arise regarding unauthorised practice of law. Jennie was very open in sharing the kinds of questions that come into the regulatory inbox, which will provide insight into the type of innovation currently moving the profession forward. Jennie discussed the work of the new consumer advisory committee at the commission and whether regulation has actually been fulfilling its true role in protecting the consumer. Jennie has been an innovator for many years and is passionate about making legal services better. Her “great desire is to see lawyers reinventing legal practice so that it meets the needs of a whole new market of consumers.” After being admitted to practice in 1988 Jennie spent around 5 years in commercial law before joining the NSW Law Society in 1994, where she worked in ethics and complaints for 12 years. In 2006 Jennie moved to Melbourne and then took up a role at the Victorian Legal Services Commissioner where for 8 years she managed the front end of the complaints and enquiries process, reading a whopping 14,000 complaints.  In December 2018 Jennie was very happily appointed to the new role of Manager, Innovation & Consumer Engagement. You should listen to this episode if you are concerned that the innovation you are considering for your practice may breach current rules of professional regulation; if you would like to know the best way to approach your state regulator with your ideas; what kinds of technological applications are unlikely to fall foul of current regulation and how the Victorian regulator at least is working with the profession to address the emerging needs of lawyers and clients. I’m very grateful to Neota Logic for sponsoring the podcast. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to rapidly build applications that automate any aspect of their services. Today’s episode is a conversation about the relationship between consumers, lawyers, technology and ethics, all of which will remain live issues, if not become more important as this current crisis continues, and resolves… This episode brought to you by Neota Logic. Links: Victoria Legal Services Board and Commission Aurecon Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

This episode no. 31 is a really important one in light of current circumstances and the impact on the legal profession, not only through disrupted working conditions but regarding current modes of conducting hearings - it covers issues of grave importance to maintaining the rule of law. I speak with Dr. Natalie Byrom who is Director of Research at UK The Legal Education Foundation where she leads work to build the evidence base for what works in helping individuals to secure their rights. Last year she was seconded to Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal Service as Expert Advisor on Open Data and Academic Engagement where her remit included advising on the data architecture and methods required to evaluate the impact of technology focused court reform on both access to and the fairness of the justice system. The 3 big topics in this episode are: the urgent shift to online hearings we’re seeing right now around the world - whether they are taking account of more vulnerable people and what could be done to improve the processes if indeed they become a part of the new normal after this crisis is over; the importance of collecting evidence for evaluation – not only to demonstrate impact to funders but to improve on current practices, and the relationship between digitisation and systemic reform. As part of those conversations we covered the importance of screening for legal needs to profoundly assist with complex social problems and the work of the Legal Education Foundation’s new Justice Lab. Natalie shared examples of resistance she’s faced to evaluation, the importance of understanding how digital delivery of legal services aids or inhibits inclusivity and makes a very important point about the connection between funding and evaluation. You should listen to this episode if you are curious about the impact of online courts on access to justice; in evaluation as a tool to demonstrate your organisation’s impact, or generally interested in best uses of technology in the delivery of legal services. I’m grateful to Neota Logic for sponsoring the podcast. Neota Logic is a leading no-code AI automation platform, providing professionals with a wide range of easy-to-use tools to rapidly build applications that automate any aspect of their services. This episode brought to you by Neota Logic. Links: The Legal Education Foundation Digital Justice: HMCTS data strategy and delivering access to justice Briefing: Coronavirus Bill, Courts and the Rule of Law1 Civil Resolution Tribunal Neota Logic Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group