unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Greene from The Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina. Chris is Editor on the Creative Arts team and Clayton is the Summit Collaborative Director. Have you started planning for Christmas yet at your church? Are you looking for a way to help your congregation embrace the true meaning of the holiday amidst the hustle and bustle of the season? As co-founders of GoodKind, Chris and Clayton share how Advent Blocks, their most popular tool, is a unique and tangible way to help kids and adults anticipate Jesus during the holiday season. Listen to the episode learn how you can use it at your church this Christmas. Engage and connect. // The challenge during the holiday season isn’t that families have no context for what the Christmas story is, or that they haven’t spent time reading those Bible passages. Rather it’s that in December it can get lost with everything else going on. When Clayton’s daughter expressed that Christmas felt like it was more about presents than Jesus, Clayton reached out to Chris to create something tangible that would build the anticipation for Christ’s arrival. Advent Blocks provide a visual and interactive experience that keeps the focus on Jesus throughout the season. They capture kids’ attention and make them excited about turning the blocks each day. Walking through the whole bible. // Rather than starting with Mary being visited by the angel as most Advent calendars do, Chris and Clayton decided to use the blocks to tell the story of God’s presence throughout the entire bible, with the finish line being Christmas. In the stories, the participants see how sin drives God away and are constantly asking the question, will God ever come back to stay? This refrain helps build the anticipation of Jesus ultimately coming to bring the help and hope we need for the problems we’ve encountered since Adam and Eve. Simple and fun. // The impact of Advent Blocks on families and their Christmas celebrations has been incredible. Families have embraced Advent Blocks as a meaningful tradition, with children eagerly participating. Chris and Clayton have made it simple to start so adults can just pick up the guide and begin. The visual elements of Advent Blocks, such as turning the blocks each day and the star representing God and Jesus coming to earth, add to the excitement and anticipation. The repetition of refrains and playful language in the stories keeps everyone engaged, from young children to older family members. Participate together as a church. // Churches can also benefit from using Advent Blocks as a resource for their congregation. The Local Church Program on the GoodKind website allows churches to purchase Advent Blocks in bulk and give them away or sell them at a discount to their people. It’s a way to do discipleship together as a church community. Additional resources, like a guide targeted to adults apart from the blocks and sermon series starter kit, are also available to enhance the community experience and create momentum in your church. Sermon series starter kit. // Every year Chris writes a sermon series starter kit that coincides with the story and blocks featured on the Sundays of Advent. The original design files for the blocks are also included so that a church’s design team can incorporate them into the teaching and prep for the series. Pastors can then use this kit to bring the whole church into alignment during the Christmas season. To find out more about the Advent Blocks Local Church Program and get 50% off a sample set, visit GoodKind’s website. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, everybody welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Super excited for today’s conversation you know most weeks we bring you one leader who will both inspire and equip you, and today we’ve got two! This is amazing! We’ve got Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Greene. They both serve at Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina. If you do not know this church, I do not know where you have been. Chris is the Editor on the Creative Arts team; Clayton is the Summit Collaborative Director. Together Chris and Clayton started GoodKind with the goal of helping people develop the good kind of habits and holiday celebrations. Rich Birch — They’re best known for a tool that we’re going to get a chance to talk about today, Advent Blocks. It’s a tangible meaningful way to help kids and parents anticipate Jesus ah, not just presents but Christmas and this is important at this time of year because I know many of us are starting to have that Christmas thing bubbling in the back of our mind, and we’re thinking about gosh, What are we doing? What are we doing to get ready for that? And I want to talk about how, you know, they’ve seen this help in so many churches. So welcome to the show. So glad you’re here, guys. Clayton Greene — Thank you for having us, Rich. We’re we’re really excited to be here. And that introduction, man, you you you nailed it – that that’s us to a T. Rich Birch — Yeah, Clayton, is there anything there that I should fill into my picture, like what did we miss about, you know, the the introduction? Clayton Greene — We’ll get into this – Chris and I are actually friends too. We’re co-workers. We’re coworkers at you know at our day job. We were cofounders at our, GoodKind, I guess you know we call it side gig in the in the business but um, and also we’re friends – we we like each other too. Rich Birch — Nice. Clayton Greene — So that’s that’s always fun when you’re working with people that you like. Rich Birch — So first question for you, Chris. Is Clayton just overstepping there? Is it really that you’re friends with… Chris Pappalardo — Wow. Rich Birch — …that he’s friends with you but you’re not really friends with him? Just kidding. Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, I love that you you dove right into this. and you’re just just you’re trying to get a yeah trying to get a… Rich Birch — Hard hitting. It’s hard hitting ah journalism here. Chris Pappalardo — …DTR for us, right? Rich Birch — Yeah yeah, um, like. Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, Clayton, Clayton is a good friend. I, you know, I don’t rank them I, like in my mind I want to rank them and I recognize this is not a healthy thing. But if I were to rank them… Rich Birch — Love it. Chris Pappalardo — …he’d be near the top. So. Rich Birch — Love it. Clayton Greene — But, Rich, it’s a fair question. Because we actually on our podcast., we do something called holi-yay or holi-nay. Rich Birch — Okay. Clayton Greene — And it’s where we go through these random holidays and we decide if they’re good or not. Rich Birch — Yes. Clayton Greene — There is a holiday, I believe it’s in June? Chris Pappalardo — It’s in June, yeah. Clayton Greene — …every year where it’s best best friends day. Rich Birch — Oh. Clayton Greene — And last year it’s the second time we’ve talked about it on our podcast and it’s such an interesting day right? because do you only get one, can you have multiple. And so Chris is one of my best friends. I’m like ah I’m like an elementary school age girl in terms of I have lots of best friends, and Chris is one of them. Rich Birch — Love it. Well, Clayton,I’d love to hear about so I had heard about this this tool, this Advent Blocks tool. And it captured my imagination, I think man, there’s something here. There’s what what a cool idea. Ah talk to me kind of a high level. What is Advent Blocks? What is this? Clayton Greene — Yeah, Advent Blocks is a Christmas practice that helps families engage with their kids and everybody in the home all throughout the Advent season. Um, you know, we we made it because there’s this in building anticipation, kind of all throughout the fall, especially all throughout December. And in December inevitably it ends up being about all those presents under the tree, right? Rich Birch — So true. Clayton Greene — So there’s this building in anticipation. There’s music. There’s lights. There’s everything and we wanted to make something that would rival like that anticipation. And Advent Blocks, it ended up. ah, being just that for us. Clayton Greene — In fact, it was actually born out of it was an accident so to speak. Um, many many years ago. I forget what year it was at this point so I won’t even try. But ah my daughter Kara who was 5 at the time said to me on December 23rd I think, 22nd maybe, she said, Daddy, Mommy and Daddy. You say that Christmas is all about Jesus, but it feels like Christmas is all about presents, right? Rich Birch — Ooh ouch. Clayton Greene — And what a knife in the back. So… Rich Birch — Ouch! Clayton Greene — And we have no time to recover. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Clayton Greene — We have zero time to recover that year. So fast forward a year. It’s in November and I’m kind of scouring the internet trying to find something that would be tangible in the middle of the home that would actually drive us towards Christmas Day to be thinking about Jesus and not just the presents. I’m not taking the presents away, but wanted a drive towards that. And I I just couldn’t find anything that quite tangibly and beautifully kind of like kind of built anticipation in the same way. Clayton Greene — So I kind of started drawing some blocks and how they might move. I like working with wood. I showed my wife three options. She pointed at the 1 in the middle and said that one. And it’s 95% of what she pointed at that day. That same day I texted Chris and said, hey Chris… Rich Birch — Let’s do it. Clayton Greene — …like I want to I want to do a ah creative writing project. Let’s do an Advent thing that we do with our families, and immediately Chris said yes. Rich Birch — Chris, I’d love to hear more. So the thing to be honest when I looked into this I the thing I immediately thought of was Elf on the Shelf. And you know Elf on the Shelf, what a ah like it’s amazing because that kind of came from out of nowhere. I remember when that first showed up I was like the way they presented that product was like it had been around forever. And it did. It became like this big kind of phenomenal thing, but it it focuses on the same thing, which is like, hey, presents, presents, presents. Rich Birch — I loved how this your tool here really drives back to the story. It ultimately drives people back that drives families back to scripture. Chris, can you talk me through how do you do that? How was that function look like? How how is this going to help families actually wrestle with the story of Jesus coming? Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, so the challenge here with with Advent, at least in our experience is not that families have no context for what the Christmas story is, and have spent no time like going to those passages and trying to read them. Like we know the story pretty well. Like Clayton was saying, the challenge is in December it’s just a blitz of everything else. And so we need something that the kids really wanted to do. Chris Pappalardo — That the blocks the mechanism of the blocks makes it so that as a centerpiece in the home, it’s decorative, it’s playful. The kids are looking at it are like hey we got to turn the block, we got to do number 9. And there’s that accountability that’s that’s drawn in from the kids, which is just just beautiful. But I loved the challenge. When Clayton reached out to me and he said, hey want to do an Advent thing? I was like I’m in. I don’t I don’t even know the full idea. But Christmas is my favorite holiday. Let’s do it. Rich Birch — Yeah. Chris Pappalardo — And so we took the the idea of saying like well if we’re going to do this over all of December let’s tell the story of God’s presence throughout all of the bible and have like that finish line be Christmas. Because that’ll help build the anticipation to say like, hey, this isn’t just a few stories about Mary and the Shepherds, which are wonderful. But it’s like you know there’s a problem in the very beginning with Adam and Eve is that they sinned and they had to leave, and God seemed far away. That was actually a problem with Noah and Moses and David and Hagar, and and so you see this problem crop up again and again, you’re like wow is God ever going to come back? Will God ever come back to stay? And that refrain which we have in the writing ends up driving a lot of the anticipation. So by the time they get to Christmas they’re like, this is it! This is! It’s exactly the excitement they should have like yeah what God came to earth? And like yes, this is this is what we’ve been wanting the whole time. Rich Birch — Talk me through, Chris, like the like an individual day, like at the level of I’m a family doing that. So I I get the idea so like, hey, we’re talking about Noah today. Chris Pappalardo — Yeah. Rich Birch — Is ah does the tool provide, here’s like a scripture reading, here’s some thoughts on that. What how do we what’s that actually look like? Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, with everything we do, we try to make it as simple as possible so that when you get our stuff it’s just like like I’ve got enough things that I may be thinking about, please put everything in my hands so that I just sit with my kids and it’s all ready. I just open up and start. Chris Pappalardo — So we’ve got the blocks that are lined up 1 to 25 and there’s an accompanying book that goes with it with 25 stories. So I’ve taken 25 of these stories from the bible and just retold them, condensed them down, put it in kid language like elementary school age language. It’s got the reference at the top of each day. So if you would open up and, you know, one of the ones in the teens you would see is the story of ah ah, maybe Saul, right? And that one’s called a very tall, very strong, very brave king: the story of Saul. And underneath it’s got the passage. So if you want to you can go later and you can read the whole thing with your kids. When you read it, it takes about ah, 3 or 4 minutes to read through. And it’s playful and fun and the kids are loving it. And at the end the end of each day it has this line where, you know like I said, God couldn’t remain, he seemed far away. So Saul and God’s people began to hope and to pray God will you come to earth to stay. That same little couplet or the triplet, I guess, at the end of each day where you’re getting you’re getting a digest of the story. You’re seeing, Okay, this isn’t just a story this guy made up. I can go read the original. And then the kids kids kind of have a handy way of of grasping what that is. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. Clayton, I’m sure um, you know, this has been rolled out for, you know, a while it’s you’ve had a couple Christmases through here. Do you have any stories of maybe a family or 2 that you know how this has become a part of their Christmas celebration kind of what that’s looked like? Or maybe even in your own family, what’s that look like? Clayton Greene — Yeah I mean there’s there are tons and tons of stories. It’s it’s one of the things that kind of keeps us us going in it all, I will say the most consistent story um is probably similar to one that I had with my my friend who’s also on staff with us at The Summit, who we were at an event ah, in December, you know, out standing on the sidewalk, waving to people um the way Danny Franks told us to. I think Danny’s been on your podcast here before… Rich Birch — Yes, love Danny. Love it. Clayton Greene — Um so they’re waving at people and doing what we’re supposed to do and he says, Man, when I left the house tonight, my kids mean they were just begging me, don’t leave. We have to do the blocks; we have to do the blocks. Clayton Greene — Or or what time are you going to be home because we have to make sure that we do the block tonight? It’s crazy. You know, ah a lot of this again was accident. Um, it’s like we’ve made the kids into little accountability devices. Rich Birch — Yes. Clayton Greene — If you give them something fun and they know I can do the fun thing, and my my grownups will do it with me. Like they they will beg to do it over and over and over again. So I think the most consistent thing that we hear from people is that it was, you know, I’ve started an advent guide before but I’ve never finished one. And I finished this one, right? Rich Birch — Oh yeah, totally. Clayton Greene — It didn’t drop off in the middle, it built it was building all the way through. Chris does this really neat thing on day seventeen where that refrain that he referred to changes a little bit. And so it just continues to build more and more and more through the new testament stories. And so it’s it’s the fact that they started and they continued, they started and they finished. As we kind of reverse engineered that, I think one of the things that um helps with that is, like Chris said the numbers, you know, you’re turning it every day. You you take the block, you turn in the number it shows an image that actually matches an image that is in the book, and you continue to turn those blocks every day and there’s a star that sits on top of the block of that day. Clayton Greene — And then there’s a globe on the other end on the top of the 25. So this star is literally marching across the blocks… Rich Birch — So cool. Yeah. Clayton Greene — …day after day after day. And there’s this approximation of the star representing God and Jesus coming to earth to stay. And so there’s that, we built a song into it. Ad so our family that first year it really kind of blew me away how much on Christmas day, the the, and Christmas eve, the girls were just they were talking about the presents; that doesn’t change, right? It is not gonna change. But they also very much wanted to sing the song. They very much wanted to read the story. They very much were aware of and anticipating that part of the celebration. And not only the present part of the the celebration. It’s and and that story just happens time and time and again. Chris Pappalardo — I think my favorite part… Rich Birch — Yeah I love it. You know, Chris, what are… Chris Pappalardo — I stepped on your toes, Rich, now. Rich Birch — Yeah, jump in, jump in. Yeah, no go go jump in. It’s good. Chris Pappalardo — My my favorite part is I think we accomplished something we set out to do which is to say like, how do we let people know what Christmas is all about? I’ve had not I have had kids and grownups reach out to say, Ah I I never realized that the theme ofGod’s presence and God coming to earth was all throughout the bible, or that was the kind of a key problem. Or I’ve never had somebody summarize the message of Christmas, hey God’s coming to earth this day so so well, and now my kids repeated it. And I’m like oh that’s that’s beautiful that they’ve got like they own that now and see that in a fresh way. Rich Birch — Yeah I’d love to stick with you, Chris, around the thing to be honest, if I can tell you kind of my impression is I’m like there seems like there’s a lot going on under the hood here. The product is it’s visually beautiful to look at like it’s a nice looking thing. It’s the kind of thing that you um, you know it would look great on your shelf kind of thing. But then it’s also I have a friend of mine, Tim Lucas, who always says man we got to put the cookies on the bottom shelf. We’ve got to make the main thing the main thing. And and this seems to do that. It’s like driving to the message. Help us unpack that maybe at like ah what are all what kind of behind it as a designer, as a thinker, you know as someone who’s trying to teach some you know spiritual truth in a way through this, what are some of those things that you’re actually doing to try to make it sticky for people? Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, so I’ve mentioned the refrain a few times. And um the thing about kids curriculum I’m learning, anything with children, is this is the way like catechisms are or anything that seems very, very simple ah, is actually very difficult to get just right? You can make things memorable but to distill down a really complicated bible idea, a bunch of stories, in a way that’s simple enough that someone hears it and they say oh yeah, great, easy. It it comes off as easy, but it’s not easy to to create. Um and so to to like we did a lot of lot of workshopping on like, well what is the line? What is the one sentence we want? And I was addicted to school for a long time, and so I went to seminary for a very long time and so I’m trying to pour in all of the insights that I’ve got theologically, but then say like I’ve got to translate this down. Like you said, cookies on the bottom shelf. Chris Pappalardo — So the refrain is one. There’s another recurring phrase that we use throughout the book. Um, the idea I wanted to capture was the idea of God’s justice and truth. In the end God God reigns. That’s language that’s ah, that’s a little bit too inaccessible for like a 5 year old, right? So I say the the promise is that one day God will come to take all the darkness and make it light, to take all the wrong and make it right. And it’s simple, it rhymes, it’s catchy, but underneath that is… Rich Birch — There’s a lot there. Yeah. Chris Pappalardo — …Hey there’s a promise that God’s justice and righteousness will one day make the world whole, which is a beautifully rich thing. So that’s that’s one piece of it. I see Clayton wanting to jump in here. So. Clayton Greene — Yeah, Chris, well I just wanted to to kind of brag on you a little bit. I mean there there are things our family experiences Chris’s writing secondhand, right? Even though I’m part of the creation. My girls will pray those refrains. It’s not just the one at the end of every day but that one about the the dark things being made light. Our daughters, that’s a part of our family’s language now and it comes from the repetition from these stories. It also does… some my daughter Kara’s favorite thing, and this is not kind of this is cookies on the bottom shelf but it’s like you know, just because it tastes good. There’s this part in the Jonah story where it says he went as far left as he could. And then he went lefter. and and our girls just think that’s hilarious like his little play on words there. Rich Birch — Yeah. Clayton Greene — Ah in the new in the new testament, one of the things he does in order to build the excitement is anytime an angel appears he uses this this phrasing, um it was too bright to be a person. It was way too loud to be a person. Um, and then I they realized THIS. IS. AN. ANGEL – all caps with periods. And it’s just things like that that just make it so that keep everybody engaged. We’ll tell people all the time, the sweet spot is like two to twelve, three to thirteen, something like that. But if you got somebody in that range and then somebody that’s 16 or 17 in the house or even the parents or you know a college student that’s back home. Those people pay attention to this story as well, and often will tear up at some point through it… Rich Birch — Yeah. Clayton Greene — …because they see how meaningful it is. It’s it’s simple, but it’s not simplistic. And so there’s there’s a there lot of beautiful things that Chris does with the writing. Rich Birch — Yeah, that strikes me as well that this is one of those times a year um that we can as church leaders encourage our families to have spiritual conversations that does feel like it’s in sync with the culture, like it doesn’t feel like hey this is so out of you know left field. It feels like, you know, you still walk into Walmart and there’s still Christmas music playing. And a lot of that Christmas music is stuff we hear in the church… Clayton Greene — It is. Rich Birch — …and it encourages actually families because of the because kids are at the center you know of the consumer side of Christmas. It does kind of there there’s this underlying like, hey it’s good for families to do stuff together at this time of year. Man, if we could leverage that for these good things, that’s that’s incredible. You know, Chris, was that a bit of what was going on as you were thinking, how do we kind of leverage this for you know for what Jesus wants to do in people’s lives? Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, a hundred percent. Um you know, I was deeply influenced with this project by a couple of the story bibles that I’ve… Rich Birch — Oh yeah, so true. Chris Pappalardo — …you know ah am still reading to my kids. And there’s a number that are fantastic, but I think we all know and love Sally Lloyd Jones Jesus Storybook Bible. And part of the beauty of that resource is in addition to the phenomenal illustrations that the Jago did, but in the writing the beauty of it is kids really love the stories and how they’re written. But when a grownup reads those, they come to see the beauty of the gospel in a way that they haven’t before, and they’re like they’re blown away by it. And so that was it’s it’s ambitious to say that’s what I was aiming for. But that’s the target I feel like we should always be aiming for. Rich Birch — Yeah, no, absolutely. Chris Pappalardo — C.S. Lewis once said about kids stuff that if ah if a kid’s book isn’t worth reading by a grownup, then it’s not worth reading for a kid. And so that was part of what we’re trying to bring to this is like look, this can’t just be something… Rich Birch — That’s good. Chris Pappalardo — …that a 4 year old likes. This has to be something that a 40 year old will say, wow thank you for for showing me that. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Chris Pappalardo — Um and I think I think we did it. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. You know we have I love that that story. But it was funny you were saying saying that because I was thinking about that as we were talking about this. We we lead, my wife and I lead ah a young married, or a parents with young kids small group. And we’re definitely not that our kids are college age but you know we’re quite a ways out of that. I wish it we were there but we’re not. And we have this one couple in our group who, you know, those people that um, they’ve just come to Jesus in the last couple of years and it’s it’s amazing to watch. And I love like there I you know often say like they’re our target, like as a church that’s who we’re trying to reach. And I love I’m going to get choked up when um, when we’re like opening the bible together as a group, I love the the dad, the man, the husband in this this couple, because like we’ll say oh you want to look at something in John. And I love it because he like goes to the index and finds, Okay John… Clayton Greene — Yeah. Rich Birch — That’s page, you know, 1223 and then he flips to that and and like I just love that. But we gave them for last year at Christmas we gave all the families we gave them that ah Storybook Bible. And it was interesting because all ah a couple months later we were it just came up in discussion somehow. And 100% of the families and they’re really across the kind of spiritual spectrum so people have been walking with Jesus for a long time and then you have a couple like this. They all said man I’m seeing the story of God in a new way because I’m reading this to my kids, right? Chris Pappalardo — Yes, yes. Rich Birch — And, man what if we could replicate that for our people in our churches that would be amazing. That’d be incredible. Clayton, you know, I’d love to ask you this – so to me as a church leader… First of all I was hoping today’s conversation would kind of open this resource up for people. It could be a great thing for people that are listening to to take a look at it. But, really I was struck that this could be the kind of thing we could do as a church together. Like can’t can’t we, like you to 3 to 13 that’s a huge span, like are there churches that have ever got out and said, hey maybe we should try to offer this to our people or point them towards it? Have you ever done anything like that, Clayton. Clayton Greene — Yeah, and I was so, absolutely. Um, you know and I feel the same thing. You know, before I was in my current role that you talked about before, I was an executive pastor of a church in Wilmington. And getting everybody to to do something together often creates a lot more momentum and and a positive experience among the whole group. And like we think about that organizationally but it also is something that is like insanely biblical as well, that the group is kind of moving and and is and is doing this together that it can’t be something that is done alone. So we make a resource that certainly is delivered to individuals, but positively what we’ve seen in our experience is a lot of individuals invite other neighbors and family members and friends in order to to do Advent Blocks alongside them. And then it started with our church maybe one or two others the the first year that they’re just like hey we’re just gonna get a whole bunch and kind of deliver them to everyone. Clayton Greene — And so it’s kind of built on itself every year to the point that now we ah officially and intentionally have something we call the local church program. Rich Birch — Love it. Clayton Greene — You know we work in the local church and we believe in the local church, and so um this [inaudible] happens begins in the home, but it’s best than when done with the whole church. And that’s like something we believe in so much that we we do this program. We sell the blocks two churches in bulk for them to either give away or resell at a discount to their people. And we we do it at a price that our business advisors tell us is too low for what we should be doing… Rich Birch — Sure, oh that’s amazing. Clayton Greene — But we do that because we do that because we actually believe that this is this is gonna be the best place for these people to be doing it. So you can register for the local church program on the website. There’s a place specifically for local churches. You automatically get that that discount in bulk as long as you buy 12. That’s it. The reason it’s 12, just so everybody knows, is because that’s how many come in a big… Rich Birch — Because the disciples, right? Clayton Greene — Yes, because of the disciples is why is why. Chris Pappalardo — Yes, that’s a hundred percent. Rich Birch — Or the tribes. Clayton Greene — Ah, that’s that’s how many come in like a a big box. Um, and so, yeah, we we even made a set that is specifically for them to make it as accessible to families as possible. Um, we there is a song I mentioned before, but we actually made the song into a lyric video… Rich Birch — Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. Clayton Greene — …because you know sometimes in kids church to like put it up. And so it’s a lyric video that you can that you can use. You can watch it on Youtube for free with ads or if you’re a size church that you want to have without ads, there’s the opportunity for you to for one of those third parties in order to get it in that way. And we even we we added in something maybe two years ago called He is Here. Clayton Greene — I mean like Chris just said, adults get a really good benefit from reading The King is Coming which is the name of the book inside the Advent Block set. But we wrote an adult guide, He is Here, that walks alongside the same stories and same theme, but it it can be done with or without the blocks, which is important. Because there are people in the church if this is going to be a big emphasis for the church that don’t have kids in the home, right? Single people, people that have their kids are out of school or the kids are kind of aged out of what this this is. You have grandparents. So there’s just tons and tons of people that if you want to kind of get the whole church into alignment, we also now have this resource for them as well. It’s called He is Here. Chris Chris wrote that. It’s it’s similar reflections with some some moments and some encouragement to prayer and practice. And so it’s it’s something that we put a big emphasis on. Chris every year takes the Sundays that line up with the the stories in The King is Coming and we write a sermon series starter kit… Rich Birch — Oh wow! Clayton Greene — …which says, hey here are the sermons that you could do that would align with that very specific day. And and by the way this is Chris this is Chris’s day job. If there’s anything we provide that you want, you want this sermon series starter kit. Rich Birch — Sure. Clayton Greene — Because this is what Chris does for J.D.… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Clayton Greene — …he and all the teachers at The Summit is help build the engine with which the research and the ideas and all those things are prepared for then the person who is teaching locally to contextually deliver that in the Spirit to those people. But yeah, so we just we try to just hook churches up like crazy. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. So so if I catch this right, well first of all, that’s incredible. I think that’s amazing. Um I love the idea of like, hey this is going to be our December series, and we’re going to launch this Thanksgiving weekend maybe or something like that. Or somewhere we’re talking about it in November. Chris Pappalardo — Yep. Rich Birch — And the blocks are available for so for sale or for free. That’s even better. That’s amazing. Um, you know, pick up this resource and then we’re going to talk about it through ah through Christmas. Um, that’s that’s incredible. Listen, friends, I know I’ve worked with a lot of teaching pastors and I’m just going to say the thing that’s going on in your head. You know, that preaching at Christmas time is tough, friends, because people know the punchline. They know it’s going to be all about Jesus is returning. What if… or Jesus is coming. What if this year you did something totally different and and plugged this into your into your system into your approach? I think, man, that could be a real win ah you know for your people. Rich Birch — Ah you know, Chris, talked to me about churches that have leverage this as a kind of a total teaching thing. Do you have any kind of sense of you know the the experience as at a church level kind of what difference that’s made for for them if they’ve done the kind of whole series thing in you know at their church? Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, I mean the executive pastors, teaching pastors, if you’re in leadership you you know how valuable alignment is. Like you can preach the paint off the walls for like 4, 8, 12 doesn’t matter how many weeks, and if it’s just the sermon going in one direction and everything else in the church is going in other directions, you just wait six months and if you want to take the wind out of your sails ask people what what’s been going on in the church, and then none of them will remember what you preached on. Rich Birch — It’s true. Chris Pappalardo — Um, but just add a little bit of intentionality get that alignment. So what’s going on in kids, what’s going on in small groups, what’s going on on the stage is all the same, and then years later people will say like, you know what series is fantastic? You know it really changed my life? And they’ll point back to the thing. The preaching may not have been any better, but you were aligned and so it got you moving. Chris Pappalardo — Um, we’re we’re still kind of early in this and still building, but a friend of mine who left to be kids pastor at a church in Florida was sending me—they used our our the whole kit the whole local church program last year—and so he was sending me updates every Sunday and he was like yeah preach this and his wife is really crafty, incredibly artistic. So in addition to doing like the sermon on that passage and the advent block for day, say four, they took a huge like cardboard box and painted, I mean like six feet tall Rich Birch — Wow. Chris Pappalardo — …and painted it so that each day, each Sunday it looked like the little, you know, two inch block you have on the mantle, but it was the image from the advent blocks just up on the stage. Rich Birch — Oh that’s so cool. Chris Pappalardo — So everybody was looking at it and you know the kids loved it. They’re like that’s it that they got an Advent Block, they got a huge Advent Block. And so it it was really catalytic for the right… Rich Birch — Why don’t we have the big Advent Block, dad? That’s so cool. Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, so that was just a lot of fun to see that. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. That is so cool. Well, can you give me a sense, so don’t talk about the amazing discount because I want people to to go and check out your website, drop by there and and reach out for you that. But what is the kind of retail cost of these things, like if I just want to buy one of these and get it shipped to my house, what what does that what does that cost? Clayton Greene — Yeah, it’s $59.99 for our Traditions set. Rich Birch — Yep. Clayton Greene — So it’s a hardback book and a wooden box. It’s going to last for generations. Rich Birch — Yep. Clayton Greene — Then we have a Standard set which is I think $44.99. It comes in a cardboard box with a paperback book. It’s the same blocks. So still going to last really, really long time and and be stored really, really well. Clayton Greene — And then the the church set before the really good discount that everyone’s going to go check out it it retails for about $34.99 um which is where it starts. But you’ll just have to go look and your eyes will go wide whenever you see what we actually will give it to churches for. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And so if we want to we where do we want to send people just at goodkind.shop – is that the place we want to send them there, Clayton? Clayton Greene — Yeah, goodkind.shop and you’ll see a tab there for the local church program. That’s going to be the the easiest way for you to find this. Rich Birch — Yeah I think this is is what a wonderful tool. What a great way to ah you know to to wrap up or to really you know point your people to at this time of year. What time of year Clayton do people need to really get the ball rolling if they’re thinking hey I want to do this. Let’s say I’m a church of a thousand people where like you obviously have some sense of how many of these things you would normally sell, all that. Is that like ah it feels like we got to get going now like feels like we got to make this decision now. But but when do people need to connect with you guys, Clayton… Clayton Greene — Yeah. Rich Birch — …if they want to make that happen? Clayton Greene — Yeah, it does but based on church and their planning cycles. There are some people beginning now. It’ll continue to increase through about August and then from August it’ll kind of go downhill from there. There are some people that find us later in the year, but they’re usually rushing a little bit. Clayton Greene — The people who find us in the summer plan an event that will actually bring all the families together and make that gift or that that opportunity in order to purchase at a discount a lot more meaningful. And so I would say you know, hey think Christmas in July you know I mean you you need to be thinking about this now so that you’re primary teachers can have the content to be planning the teaching, so that your graphic designers if you have those you know can can be putting things together, which you can we will send you the original files of all of our designs… Rich Birch — Wow. Clayton Greene — …and blocks and everything so that they can kind of piece those things in as well and they walk in and it feels like your church created the entire thing. So yeah, but you’re right think Christmas in July. It’s about time. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, love it. That’s so good. Chris, we’re going to give you the final word just as we as we wrap up. Bring us back home to kind of the heart of you know, kind of behind all this. What are you your your local church people that are trying to make a difference trying to help people. Ah. Ah, bring us back to the vision. Why why you’re doing this kind of end us on that thought today. Chris Pappalardo — Yeah, I think that’s beautiful. Um, you know we often say we call ourselves GoodKind because we want to cultivate the good kind of of habits and holiday practices. And one of the one of the ways we do that is making products that that take beautiful, profound really deep truths, and we make it simple enough that everybody can engage with it. We really think that there’s going to be more movement, there’s going to be more influence, you’re going to see more catalysts for change if everybody in the church does some really small thing, just all together one one tiny step, then if you have a few folks in the church who are really superheroes. Chris Pappalardo — And um I really believe our stuff helps folks to take a step so that they can look at it a month later, or six months later and say, hey you know what we prayed a little bit more because of that. We actually made this Christmas about Jesus and um, that. I find that tremendously encouraging because the big stuff, the you know the impressive stuff can fade. But if everybody in our church is doing is knowing Jesus a little better, following him a little more closely than I think that’s that’s phenomenal in what we’re after. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well thank you guys so much. I really appreciate you being on today’s episode. And I and I hope church leaders that you’re listening in you’ll take action on this. I do think this could be a really cool. You know thing for you to inject into the life of your church into your people real helpful tool that like you say could for generations make a huge impact. Clayton, remind us one more time where do we want to send people online if they want to connect with you guys? Clayton Greene — Yeah, look us up at goodkind.shop, goodkind.shop – you can find everything there. You can find our podcast, instagram, of course the local church program. Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. And there’s so much there. you know we talked about one thing: advent blocks. But you guys do other stuff too. We’ll have to have another conversation down the road about those things. So thanks so much, friends. Thanks for tuning in. I appreciate you guys being here today.

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with coach and writer Michael Bungay Stanier, who is best known for his book, The Coaching Habit, which is the bestselling coaching book of the century. We all know that not all work relationships can be perfect, but how can we improve them? In today’s episode, Michael talks about his latest book How to Work with (Almost) Anyone: Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Relationships, and coaches us on how to improve our work relationships for the sake of our own fulfillment and leadership development, but also to bring out the best in others. Getting guidance. // Staff relationships can be tough because people are messy and complicated. They have their own agendas and are doing their best, but they aren’t always aligned with each other. It’s easy to find guidance for being more productive and efficient in our work, but much harder to find guidance about how to cultivate the best possible working relationships. Talk about how to work together. // Have a conversation with your colleague about how you’ll work together rather than just what you’re working on. Talk about how you can work best together and bring out the best in each other. Discuss these things so that you both have the best chance of enjoying the working relationship, and the best chance of the work being good. Lead the conversation. // As the leader, you should work to develop at least a decent working relationship with everyone, even those you struggle with. Choose one individual and talk with them about how to improve your relationship. This conversation will require vulnerability and courage, but it is a powerful investment in your leadership. Learn from the past. // Michael’s book offers five questions you can ask during a conversation with a colleague. One of them is, what can we learn from past frustrating relationships? What happened in the past will repeat in the future with different people, in a different situation. By openly discussing past frustrating relationships and learning from them, both parties can gain valuable insights on how to avoid triggering each other while improving the relationship. Don’t surprise your staff. // Give your teammate clarity by letting them know ahead of time about the conversation you want to have. Tell them what to expect and what questions you want to talk about. Be ready to answer these questions yourself and model vulnerability. Then be present and listen to your coworker. Creating a safe environment during these conversations is crucial, as it allows people to be open and engaged. Start with one. // Rather than trying to have conversations with everyone you work with, start with one person. Think about who would be most open to having a conversation about improving your working relationship. The very act of making the invitation to somebody is a powerful first step. They might be skeptical at first and change won’t happen overnight, but keep at it. You can learn more about Michael’s book and get extra downloads at www.bestpossiblerelationship.com. Looking to build stronger, more effective relationships with your church staff? Check out the Keystone Conversation Kit for Church Leaders—a practical tool inspired by our conversation with Michael Bungay Stanier on the importance of focusing on how you work with your team, not just what you work on. This kit includes everything you need to have meaningful, structured conversations that improve communication, trust, and collaboration with your staff. Access the Keystone Conversation Kit Here as part of unSeminary Extra Credit, and take your leadership to the next level! Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Super excited about today because we’ve got a really fantastic guest expert to help you and I with some real practical stuff in our organizations. We’ve got Michael Bungay Stanier. He is really best known for his book The Coaching Habit, which is a fantastic book. If you have not read that, give that to your team. You need to. It’s really is the bestselling—I didn’t know this—the bestselling coaching book of the century and is recognized as a classic. I found it super helpful. But in his most recent book, How to Work With (Almost) Anyone, shows how you and I can build the best possible relationship with key people at work. He’s a Rhodes Scholar, he’s Australian, and our friend Carey Nieuwhof said, Hey, you’ve got to have Michael on, and anything time Carey tells me do stuff, I say, yes. So super honored to have you, Michael. It’s an honor that you’re here with us today. Michael Bungay Stanier — Oh, Rich, thank you. I mean, I love that Carey made the introduction, and I’m grateful for that indeed. And thanks for such a nice introduction. That’s really, really warm of you.Rich Birch — Well, why don’t you fill out the picture? Like, what did I miss there? What are some things that you’d love for people to know?Michael Bungay Stanier — Oh, gosh. Well, you know, I’ve got that kind of complicated backstory, you know, that saying, inspiration is when your path suddenly makes sense. So you go kind of a accumulation of adventures and stories and scars and mistakes, but you covered a lot of the basics. I’m Australian. I got lucky when I was in my mid 20s and I won a Rhoades Scholarship and that did two brilliant things for me.Michael Bungay Stanier — One is it stopped me becoming a lawyer because I was doing a law degree and it wasn’t working going well. I mean, I literally finished my law school being sued by one of my professors for defamation. So I’m like, okay, that’s not great. Rich Birch — Oh my goodness. [laughs] Michael Bungay Stanier — And then I arrived at Oxford to study and I met my wife. We’ve been 30 years married now and she’s Canadian. So that’s part of the reason I’ve ended up living in Toronto. And I, you know, when I finally got out of school, I spent some time in the world of innovation and creativity. Amongst other things, I’ve helped invent a whisky that’s been called the worst single malt scotch ever invented. Rich Birch — [laughs] Michael Bungay Stanier — Um, I worked into the world of organizational change, so this is where I really got interested in how organizations flourish or don’t flourish. And then 20 years ago or so, I started a company that’s a training company to help organizations use coaching skills to help bring out the very best in their people and thrive as an organization that’s called Box of Crayons.Michael Bungay Stanier — Um, but now I would say I’m trying to be a writer. So of all the things I do, in all the ways I teach, writing is perhaps my my most unique, most practical way. And so these days, I spend a lot of time going, All right… Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — …let me go through the misery of writing a book, and then the necessity of talking about the book and getting it out into the world. And that’s kind of how I see myself now.Rich Birch — Love it. Well well, you know, I want to just thank you for The Coaching Habit. And so I read The Coaching Habit and to be honest, did not connect your name with that book until until Carey reached out to me and was like, Hey, there’s this guy. And I was like, Oh my goodness, I would love to get a chance to talk to Michael. That his book is a fantastic, super practical, you know, the kind of thing that you can put right into practice. And so I’m honored that you would come on… Michael Bungay Stanier — Oh thanks.Rich Birch — …and look forward to diving in. Your new book is called How to Work with (Almost) Anyone Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Work Relationships. I love in the write up I love this because this feels very true… Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Rich Birch — …in the organizations I’ve led I’ve led. Not every relationship can be rainbows and unicorns and free flowing ginger beer. But man, that’s so true for us. We’re leading churches. Most of the people who are listening here, they’ve got a staff of 10, 15 people, something like that. And we know that those relationships are so it can be tough at times. Why is that? Why why doesn’t why don’t relationships just magically happen? Michael Bungay Stanier — Oh I know. Rich Birch — Why aren’t they rainbows, unicorns and free flowing ginger beer?Michael Bungay Stanier — Because, you know, it’s people are messy and complicated and and and have their own agendas and are doing their best, but not everything is aligned. So you know, if you look back on the working relationships you’ve had, the ones you have now and the ones you’ve had in the past, my bet is it’s probably a bell curve. You know, you have some people at one end where you’re like, I love working with you. For some reason we’ve clicked and we bring out the best in each other and we navigate the hard times with some grace and some ease, and we kind of amplify the best of who we are.Michael Bungay Stanier — My bet is probably you’ve had working relationships at the other end of the bell curve as well. Ah, you’re like, ah, It’s not even that they’re a terrible person. I mean, sometimes they’re a terrible person, but not always. Sometimes it’s like we just can’t click. We’ve got sand in the gears and lots of the work in relationships somewhere in the middle, which is like they’re fine and sometimes they’re a bit off and sometimes they’re a bit on… I realize that we get stuff done through people. Rich Birch — So true. Michael Bungay Stanier — We find the joy in our work, through the people with whom we work. And whereas, we’ve all got guidance on how to do the work better, be more productive, be more strategic, be more efficient, be all of that. There’s less guidance on how do we actively manage and bring out give us the best possible chance of the best possible working relationships.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so good. You know, I love that distinction of, you know, there’s a lot of resources out there that are around the getting stuff done. Michael Bungay Stanier — Right. Rich Birch — It’s the whole how do we you know, but but what are we doing to try to build up the relational stuff? Now, I want to take advantage of the fact that you’re here. You’ve structured this book around five questions. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yes, yep. Rich Birch — I want to help our listeners and cut right to the chase. There’s got to be one of them that is like the one that that you found in your conversations and your research that’s the highest leverage. I know that’s an unfair question to an author, but let’s let’s start there.Michael Bungay Stanier — Well, I’m going to start I’m going to start I’m going to shed what I think is probably the question, if I can only ask one of those five questions. This is the question that I would ask.Michael Bungay Stanier — But the key if there’s one message I would hope people heard in this conversation between you and me, Rich, it’s have a conversation about how you’re going to work together rather than just on what you’re working on. And and the pull is always on the what because it’s always there and shiny and loud and urgent and bright, but it’s like taking a beat and kind of looking the other person in the eye and saying, Hey, how will we work best together? How will we bring out the best in each other?Rich Birch — Can you frame that up for us? What do you mean by that? How like, what does that look like?Michael Bungay Stanier — So we didn’t do this, but we could have done this before you hit record on this podcast, I could have said, Rich, tell me what makes a really great podcast guest for you. I mean, what do they do and what do they say, and what do they not do and what do they not say? Rich Birch — Sure. Michael Bungay Stanier — And I could have said and tell me tell me like the terrible guest or at least the ones where, you know, at the end of it, you’re like, you put your head in your hands and go, Oh, man, that was hard work. And I’m not even sure I’m going to release that episode because it just didn’t work. And I could say to you, Rich, let me tell you, when I’ve been interviewed, the interviews that I love, the ones that really bring out the best in me. And then let me tell you about the interviews that are less fun for me, ones that I’m not so enamored. And you and I have a conversation. We’re not we’re not talking about what I’m going to talk about. We’re talking about how will you and I work best together. And you can do that with all the key relationships in your in your church or in your organization, the people on your team, maybe the key people in your parish or in your flock. The ones like these are key people who need to work well with. Maybe it’s like vendors and so people who support the work that you do in your church or your organization. You can build better working relationships with those people, but it requires a conversation where you go, Hey, you and me, I don’t want this to suck. Rich Birch — Yes.Michael Bungay Stanier — What should I do to make it not suck? What should I do to make it even better? Rich Birch — Right. Michael Bungay Stanier — And whether you pick any one of the five questions that we can talk about specifically and use that as a springboard, you can. But really to take away this idea of just checking in with that other person going, how should we do this… Rich Birch — Right. Michael Bungay Stanier — …so that we give it give both of us the best chance of enjoying the working relationship, which gives both of us the best chance of the work being good.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Help us help you understand, maybe and we’ll get to one of those questions in a second. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Rich Birch — But as we’re kind of thinking about it from a conceptual point of view, help me understand, maybe there’s people on my team that I when you describe the bell curve, I very quickly went to the people that were on the bottom end of that bell curve. Michael Bungay Stanier — Right. Rich Birch — Like you did not have to convince me. Oh my goodness. This is these people are not working. Michael Bungay Stanier — Right. Yeah.Rich Birch — How do we frame that kind of conversation? How do we how do we approach that one? Maybe I’m not even I don’t even really I want to keep it at the transactional because it is so negative. You know, help us think through that.Michael Bungay Stanier — Well, you always have a choice. You have a choice whether this is worth it or not. Because you may say, look, there are some relationships where I just don’t want to do this because I just want to I want to limit it. I want to keep it transactional. But I know that when I’ve led teams, actually I haven’t really had that choice. I’m like, I need this to be better because this is sucking the life out of me. It’s miserable for both of us, and I want to give this the best chance of not turning into something magical and brilliant, because I think that’s unlikely. I want a bad relationship to get to being good enough. I want to remove as much of the negative as possible. So at a minimum, we’ve got a decent working relationship and we give ourselves the best chance to cooperate because, you know, you have to I mean, maybe you need to let this person go or fire them or whatever. Maybe that’s the solution. But sometimes you’re like, I need to give this a better shot. Or for some reason I don’t have the I don’t have the option of firing them. So we’ve got to figure out a way of working well together.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.Michael Bungay Stanier — And I think that’s the conversation where I’m like, okay, Rich, I know we’ve had our struggle with working together. And I’d like to do all we can to try and make this just as good as we can get it. So let’s just pause for a moment and this is have a conversation about how should we do that. Rich Birch — I love that. Michael Bungay Stanier — There is risk involved here. Like there’s this is an act of vulnerability. This is an act of courage to do this. And it won’t always work, but it will work often enough. And what you are exhibiting as you show this leadership is powerful for not just the two of you, but also for other people watching on, that it is often a really bold, good investment in your leadership.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love the, you know, the courageous conversation that needs to happen there… Michael Bungay Stanier — Yes. Rich Birch — …that it’s like, hey, we’ve got to take we’re the leader. It’s our job to lead, to go ahead. And sometimes even just acknowledging, I found that in the past, acknowledging with people, hey, like we both can see this isn’t working well, right? Like, can we talk about that? Like, you know, that wow, what a powerful even just that alone could get us farther down the field. I love that. Well, let’s dive into one of these questions. Michael Bungay Stanier — Sure. Yeah. Rich Birch — What if we let’s let’s unpack one of those, you know, pretend we’re sitting across the table trying to coach a leader. What’s one of these conversations that could be particularly helpful for us?Michael Bungay Stanier — I had this with The Coaching Habit because, you know, The Coaching Habit‘s… Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — …is like, here are seven great questions. And I’m always asked, What’s your favorite question? I’m like, Oh man, I like all of them. Rich Birch Yes. [laughs]Michael Bungay Stanier — I literally I literally wrote a version of the coaching habit, which I had 169 questions. And then I… Rich Birch — Love it. Michael Bungay Stanier — …and it was a terrible book. I mean, it was a terrible version. So like, I have to get fewer questions. So… Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — …took it down to seven. So all of them have their place. But um I would, oh, what would I pick? I would perhaps pick this one. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — I picked the bad date question. It’s question number four of the five, and it says this, What can we learn from past frustrating relationships? Because what is true is what happened in the past will repeat in the future. Even though the past is with different people and different contexts and different moments and you’re a different person. All of that is true, but the patterns repeat. So if I could if I were sitting down with you and I go, Rich, we’re working together. I’m excited about it. You’re a nice guy. You’ve got a cool beard. I’ve got a cool beard. Things are looking good here. Rich Birch — Sure. Michael Bungay Stanier —But I’m like, Tell me about it. Tell me when you’ve worked with somebody like me in the position that I’m working with you in, and it just it’s not been good. It’s been a struggle. It’s been really hard. Tell me about it. What what did you do and not do and say and not say that really made that work in relationship struggle? And I’ll tell you the same. And this is such a gift for me because I’m like, okay, I’m getting some really good clues about how not to trigger Rich, how not to drive him nuts, how not to accidentally make him crazy. And he’s getting the same information from me. And so often what we do is we we project or we guess or we assume what it takes to make the person happy and how to avoid them being unhappy. And now I’m just saying, why don’t we say that out loud rather than just making it up about that other person? Michael Bungay Stanier — And it is… so for instance, I mean, little things. If I go if you say, look, the thing that kills me is the is feedback that is always wafty high level positive and never gives me any of the details. I’m like, Oh, that’s really good. Because actually I tend to go for the kind of the pastorly huggy light [inaudible], woo woo, you’re amazing. And sometimes I forget to kind of go, Here’s where I’d love you to improve. I can, I can do that now. I’ve got a note: with Rich I’ve got to get gritty with my feedback.Rich Birch — Yeah. Okay, I love that. So the when we’re thinking… so let’s stick with this, this whole bad date question. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Rich Birch — What what can we learn from past, you know, frustrating relationships? I think that’s a really great question. When as I’m going to do this, as I so let’s say I’m thinking about going to a leader. I’m going to have this conversation. I’m imagine, is this the kind of thing I want to prep them ahead of time? Like say, Hey, I’d love to have this conversation, here’s a bit of framework. Maybe I tack it on to the end of a one on one. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Rich Birch — Or do I just bring it on them and, you know, talk us through what that looks like? How do we actually have that to maximize it, to kind of get the best value out of it?Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Again, you always have a choice so you can decide what works for you. But I would say for the people on your team and the people who are kind of the closest to you, the most vital relationships, the more warning you can give them and the more clarity that you can give them, the the safer this conversation is going to feel for them. You know, in The Coaching Habit, I talk about the neuroscience of engagement and, you know, just there’s a quick detour five times a second. The brain is going, is it safe here or is it dangerous, safe or dangerous, safe or dangerous? And there are four drivers that make a conversation feel safe for people. And it spells the word tera, T-E-R-A.Michael Bungay Stanier — And they are tribe, expectation, rank and autonomy. So tribe, the brain is going, are you with me or are you against me? Expectation is, do I know what’s going to happen or do I not know? Rank is are you more or less important than me? And autonomy is are you making other choices or do I get some say in this? That’s what the brain is going and going. Here’s how I tell whether it’s safe or dangerous. And of course, if it’s safe, they’re more likely to step forward, be vulnerable, be nuanced about the situation, see the best. If it’s dangerous, they’re retreating, they’re backing away. Everything’s a bit black and white. Everything’s a bit fight or flight. Michael Bungay Stanier — So you’re constantly as a leader looking to try and lift the tera quotient because it makes it safer for all of you, which makes it more likely that you can bring their best and you can build a relationship that feels safe and vital and repairable with that person. All of that to say if you can say to them, Hey, Rich, this is a bit unusual, but I’d love us to have a conversation about how we how we are working together or how we will work together rather than just, you know, the projects that we’re working on at the moment. I’ve got five questions. I read it in a book. Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — And I’m going to do some thinking about how I’m going to answer the questions. I’d love you to do some thinking too. So we’re both prepared for the conversation and then we can both dive into it. And then when you jump in there, so what you’re really helping there with the E – expectation around that. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Michael Bungay Stanier — There’s also a rank thing, which is like, I’m going to ask and answer this question. So we’re both going to be doing it, not just me asking you. And then when you can start the conversation off, you might say, Hey Rich, thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. Bit nervous and excited as well. Um, do you want to go first or should I?Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s a good tip.Michael Bungay Stanier — What that’s doing is lifting it’s tribes and autonomy. In that moment, you’ve just bumped up both of those things. And if they want to go first, fantastic. That’s wonderful. Rich Birch — Right.Michael Bungay Stanier — You’re like, great. And your job is you don’t have to fix anything. Job is just to be present and listen. But if if they ask you to go first, which I think they will most often because they’re kind of going, I don’t know – what are we doing? Trying to get you. Rich Birch — Yes. They’re trying to get you… right. Michael Bungay Stanier — I need to see what I need to see what the game what game is being played here so I can get a sense of it. Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — Then your choice is to role model vulnerability. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Michael Bungay Stanier — So the more you are willing to share and be open and be real and maybe be a bit messy about how you answer these questions, the extent that you go is the extent that they will go. So you set the standard by which what’s permitted around vulnerability and openness and and humanness, really. So you get that choice around it. If you if you give top level, abstract, not giving, not I’m not sharing much there. Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — That’s exactly the same type of answer you’ll get from that other person.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. So one of the stereotypes [inaudible] be a lot of people listening in in our world that are called executive pastors. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Rich Birch — And like these people are typically not the lead pastor of the church, but they’re, you know, they’re kind of responsible—it would be similar like a COO—responsible for the kind of day to day management. And there’s a stereotype – I know this is not any of you that are listening in… Michael Bungay Stanier — The other ones. The other executive pastors. Rich Birch — …but there’s other ones, the other executive pastors, there’s a stereotype that that we can be just very transactional, and not necessarily transformational. We’re not like because we manage the budget, we manage, you know, all of that stuff. And there may even be leaders who are listening in that are self-aware enough to say, you know what, I actually think I am too transactional. I think I am too I am that guy who’s just too concerned about, are you checking your stuff off? And they want to take a step towards this kind of relationship. They want to and but they understand that the expectations on the other side are like, this is like way out of left field. Coach us through how we could make that kind of how do we change? Let’s say we’re convinced we want to make that change. We want to be more transformational, we want to help. We want to be more of a coach. How can I step to, you know, step towards our people in a way that’s better?Michael Bungay Stanier — Well, I perhaps would start not stepping towards your people, but step towards a person. Um… Rich Birch — Oh good. Michael Bungay Stanier — …because it’s it’s a… sometimes these books, it’s same with The Coaching Habit as well, people are like, Oh man, I’ve got to change everything. I’ve got to stay curious longer. I’ve got to become more coach like. And it can feel a bit overwhelming because it’s not a it’s not a insignificant ask. It’s like I’m trying to shift the way that I show up as a leader and as a human being. Be more curious about that other person. Be willing to share the spotlight with them. Be willing to invite them in. Be willing for them to take responsibility and accountability that’s appropriate for them. These are non-trivial shifts in behavior and shifts in how you see yourself. So give yourself the grace to know that this won’t be an immediate transformation and won’t happen overnight. But start somewhere. Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Michael Bungay Stanier — The very act of making the invitation to somebody is a powerful first step. Feel free to go, they might be skeptical at first. Nobody saw this coming from me. Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — Like, yeah, that’s okay. They’ll be skeptical. My job is to keep at it. Um, and I would select your person from 1 or 2 different pools. Rich Birch – Okay. Michael Bungay Stanier — Probably I would start with like if I if you had to guess who the person who would be most open to this. In other words, it would be safest for you and easiest to practice something new with that person be. Start with one person. You might not even start with somebody who’s part of your church. Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Michael Bungay Stanier — You may go, I’m going to practice with a vendor. Rich Birch — Yes. Michael Bungay Stanier — You know, the person who provides the things that we need. Rich Birch — Yep. Michael Bungay Stanier — I want that. Some of those you want to be transactional relationships, but some of them are more important than that. And you might like, how do I be a better how do we have a better collaborative partnership? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Michael Bungay Stanier — Like you’re practicing kind of in a safe area, but you might also go, look, I’ve got a couple of disastrous working relationships. You know, they feel really broken. Why don’t you could start there because you’re like, honestly, there’s not a whole lot to lose, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Michael Bungay Stanier — If this doesn’t work, it’ll be exactly the same as it currently is. Rich Birch — Right, right. Michael Bungay Stanier — So that might also be a safe place for you to, to give it a go. Because if it does work well, what a transformation that could make. Rich Birch — Cool. Yeah. So let me describe another scenario and maybe you could help, you know, help leaders who might be listening in, you know, apply some of this to this particular scenario. So oftentimes, if I’m at a church, it’s not all the time, but if I’m at a church doing some coaching, we’re working on some some issues. You know, one of two conversations happens. This is pretty typical. I’ll have a lead pastor – so they’re typically the person that’s in charge of the organization. They’re like the primary communicator. And they’ll pull me aside and say, you know, I just I really love my executive pastor. This person does a great job. They’re like so good at getting stuff done. Then they rattle off all this positive stuff. But then you know what happens. There’s a BUT at the end of the sentence. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah, exactly. Rich Birch — And they’re like, But can you help me work better with this person? Or, the reversal happened and executive pastor will say, Man, I love my lead pastor. They’re like all vision. I love their teaching. They’re fantastic. But help me understand… Can you talk us through the kind of leading up scenario? How how could I take some of the lessons here when I’m the person that’s not actually the primary; I’m you know, I’m reporting to someone else. How can I work better with that person? Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah, it’s really good. Um, so if I was you in that position, I might do a couple I might think of a couple of things. One is, I want to help people understand the dynamic that’s going on because it is lead and executive together, and those people with their individual personalities. But there’s a pattern that’s playing out that is beyond just who they are as individuals. And the the model I go to most often is called the Cartman Drama Triangle. Michael Bungay Stanier — And the Cartman Drama Triangle says there are when things get dysfunctional and they always get dysfunctional, three roles play out: the rescuer, the victim and the persecutor. Victim is, Oh, it’s too hard. It’s unfair. Nyah, nyah, nyah. Kind of like, Save me. The the persecutor is wingle-waggler. You’re no good, micromanager. And the rescuer is, Hey, let me jump in. Let me fix it. Let me solve it. Let me take all of this on. And those are all very. And my bad is when you’ve got those dysfunctional relationships, there will be a pattern going on. And it’s really helpful to say, here’s the drama triangle. What pattern do you think showing up? What role do you think you’re playing? What role do you think the other person is playing? And that and then go, Now how might you break out of that drama triangle? That’s already a great start. Rich Birch — Good. Yeah, I love that. Michael Bungay Stanier — You know, just going I’m understanding this at a different level. And it’s not just me versus them. It’s a dynamic. Rich Birch — Right. Michael Bungay Stanier — But then you make the danger if you’re the coach is you become the rescuer, and you actually maintain this dysfunctional relationship by going, Oh, I know they sound terrible. Tell me all about it. Oh, my goodness. What can you do about it? You actually keep them in their kind of victim frustrated role rather than help them get out of it. So one of the things you could teach them is this idea of this Keystone conversation, which is like, what what what would be… you know, any time you give somebody a choice, Rich, I always say, what are the prizes and punishments? Because every choice is prizes and punishments. Michael Bungay Stanier — If you were to have a conversation about how you’re working together, what are the prizes and punishments of that? What’s at risk of you doing that? Oh, they won’t like me. Oh, it won’t work. Oh, nothing will change. Oh, we’ll just keep things the way it is. And what are the possible prizes of that? Well, we shift everything. We clear up this this misunderstanding and reset and get back to who we are at our very best. And and have that conversation and go, what do you think? Are the prizes and punishments worth it? Because if you choose not to have that conversation, if you choose not to actively manage that, there are prizes and punishments to that choice as well. Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Well let’s talk about… Michael Bungay Stanier — I don’t know what what landed for you in that. Rich Birch — Well, the thing that landed, well well, that triangle makes a lot of sense. And I think the that idea of being the rescuer in the midst of the scenario that actually just propagate it’s continue keeps it going. Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Rich Birch — I think there’s there I think one of the dangers of what we do in our world is, um, we can shy away from some of these, you know, pointed conversations… Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah. Rich Birch — …because, you know, we’re afraid of whatever insert whatever the particular punishment we’re worried about. But what ends up happening is we cultivate a whole other set of problems, which is, you know, it’s gossip. It’s, you know, it’s we’re thinking negative things. We’re, you know, we’re perpetuating negative habits, you know, all of that. So, yeah, I think there’s there’s something to just pulling back and having the, hey, let’s actually just have the conversation, define the relationship. Let’s talk about where we’re at. I think it’s so important. Michael Bungay Stanier — Because the coaching conversation for me is, when I’m working one-on-one with somebody, is what’s your role in this mess? Because the temptation is to look at the other person and go, Tell me about what that what they’re like. They sound terrible. Oh, I get it. Oh, man, that must be hard. And I’m like, That’s kind of interesting. But all we can control and all I can coach is you. And so what’s your role in this? And the drama triangle helps them articulate their role, because rescuer, victim or persecutor, they’re all dysfunctional roles. They’re all kind of perpetuating the stuckness in some way. And then it’s like, what choices do you have to shift this? Because if you want this to be different, be the person who has the courage to say, How do I make this different? Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. When I was reading the materials about your book, one of the things that struck me was, Man, this would be a great resource for teams of people to read together, that I think getting it, you know, I’ve got ten people, hey, this would be a great resource maybe for the fall or maybe even over the summertime. I know it comes out here in the summer as like a a good way to introduce this topic to the culture. It will spur that conversation. Is that what you were thinking when you when you pulled this one together? Tell me about kind of what was in your mind when you were writing this book. Michael Bungay Stanier — You know, um, I hope, I mean, I would be thrilled for teams to pick this up and go, This will help us build a stronger team. And also, I think I’ve written this primarily for people to build trust and safety, and vitality, and repairability. Those are the three characteristics I talk about are the best possible relationship. Is it safe, vital, and repairable – to build that one at a time. One one conversation, one person at a time. So if I’m a team leader, I want that there to be safety and vitality within the team itself. I want it to be, you know, you always hope a team is more than the sum of its parts. But I also want to take responsibility for my 1 to 1 relationships within that team, because I think by building that safety 1 to 1, you then start building the safety for the team to be amplified as well. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love, you know, kudos to you, Michael. Even in this conversation you have you’re living out your the message of this book. You have pushed me back multiple times to, yeah, yeah, stop ignoring everybody. Stop thinking about everybody. Come back to that one relationship. Let’s go back to one thing, if we can, let’s have that conversation, which I think is a great thing for us to think about. I think sometimes we can just get so caught in the like, okay, we’ve got all this is like a mass of people as opposed to, well, let’s actually just have one of these conversations. If people want…Michael Bungay Stanier — Those interventions happen all the way, right? Rich Birch — Yep. Michael Bungay Stanier — You want intervention 1 to 1. You want to think about your intervention as a team. And if you’re holding an organization, you know, the ten or the 15 of you, you’re like, you’re thinking the culture of your organization and the values of your organization as well. You’re trying to build a place where important work gets done and people thrive, and you kind of need to be working at all three of those levels. If you’re at that, if you’ve got that control and you’ve got that influence.Rich Birch — Love it. Well, where can people pick up copies of this book? I want to make sure that they it comes out at the end of June 2023, if I remember correctly. Michael Bungay Stanier — That’s right – June 27th.Rich Birch — Okay, perfect. So you can pre-order now, I’m assuming at Amazon. Are there are other places we want to send them.Michael Bungay Stanier — Well, it is true that you’ll find the books and all those obvious places where you buy books. Rich Birch — Yep. Michael Bungay Stanier — But if you want bonuses and extra downloads and kind of additional stuff, bestpossiblerelationship.com is a website where there’s a ton of kind of free stuff, including me role modeling what a keystone in conversation looks like. So you can come and see me having a keystone conversation with actually somebody on my team. It was a real conversation that we filmed and kind of want to share with people so you can actually see what this looks like and sounds like in real life. Rich Birch — Love it. This is this is such a fantastic resource. And friends, I would highly recommend that you pick up copies of this, that you at least get a copy for you. And you know, but maybe for some other folks and you. I do think this is going to be the kind of resource that’s going to help so many of us think through these these relationships. Anything else you’d like to share, Michael, just as we wrap up today’s conversation? Michael Bungay Stanier — You know, I’d probably just summarize some of what we’ve already said, and you’ve been a really gracious host, so thank you, Rich. You know, I think every working relationship can be better. And I think you can do that by having a conversation about how we work together rather than what we work on, because it’s a way that you connect to the humanity of the other person as well as discuss what’s important in the work. Rich Birch — Thank you so much. Well, this is great. Anywhere else we want to send people online. So again, that’s best working relationship possible. Michael Bungay Stanier — Best possible possible. Rich Birch — Sorry. Michael Bungay Stanier — It’s alright. Rich Birch — Best possible relationship. I want to send people there. Anywhere else we want to send them online to track with you and to track with the work you’re up to? Michael Bungay Stanier — No, my, my, my general website is mbs.works. But you know what you’ll get if best possible relationship is a doorway into all of that as well. So if you’re just remembering one URL bestpossiblerelationship.com is it. Rich Birch — Great. And we’ll link to all that in the show notes. So… Michael Bungay Stanier — Yeah, appreciate that. Rich Birch — Appreciate you, Michael. Thank you so much for being here today. Michael Bungay Stanier — It was great. Rich Birch — Thank you, brother. Michael Bungay Stanier — Thank you. Rich Birch — Take care. Bye. 

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Léonce B. Crump Jr. and Warren Bird. Léonce is an author plus the co-founder and senior pastor of Renovation Church in Atlanta. Warren is a repeat guest on unSeminary. He works for the Evangelical Council for Financial Ability (ECFA) and is also the author of several books. Together, Léonce and Warren have coauthored a book with Ryan Hartwig called The Resilience Factor: A Step-by-Step Guide to Catalyze an Unbreakable Team. They’re here to talk about what it looks like to be resilient in the face of disruption, and practical steps you can take to build great teams. How do we lead through disruption? // As leaders the great lesson we have to learn is that disruption is normal. For several decades we have enjoyed relative stability, but the reality is we will always encounter disruption. Building a strong, high performance team is essential to getting through these difficult times, but it also is a great challenge in churches today. Learn to adapt. // If disruption is normal, then education, management techniques, tenure, natural skills and abilities won’t necessarily help you navigate through it. What you need is the ability to take the hard times and keep going. Become healthy, strong, and successful after a difficult challenge. Resilience isn’t just about surviving. Rather after you absorb the blows life gives you, you’re adapting and becoming something different in order to navigate the new reality before you. Ask God for help. // The Resilience Factor is broken into eight blocks to help you build an unbreakable team, and the first step is to pray and assess your situation. Ask God to give you insight into the new reality you are in. We can have the best research and resources available to us, but unless God’s at work and you’re doing what he wants, it’s all for nothing. Lead through others. // The strength of our mission and ministry can’t rest on one gift or set of skills. Preaching alone doesn’t build a great church, rather it’s the ability to lead through others. Letting others lead you in their area of expertise helps catalyze unbreakable teams. Léonce shares that one way he does this is by making space for others to speak first in team meetings. Allow others to share their ideas, thoughts and opinions before you add your own to the conversation. Building trust. // The book includes team and individual exercises which help to increase resilience, such as an exercise on defining the team’s purpose in light of the church’s mission statement and comparing it with other team members’ answers. These exercises help with trust-building and create little wins for the team which build confidence to go for a bigger win together. You can find out more about the book at www.resiliencefactor.info as well as order them in bulk. Keep up with the surveys Warren talks about at the ECFA website, www.ecfa.org/surveys, and connect with him on LinkedIn. You can find Léonce under the name @leoncecrump on most social media sites and learn more about his church at www.renovationchurch.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey, everybody. Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. You know, every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you, really help you as you lead at your church. But today, you’ve got a two for one special. We’ve got two incredible gentlemen here today who, uh, we’re gonna get a chance to dive into something that they’ve been working on for quite a while. We’ve got Léonce B. Crump Jr. He’s the co-founder and senior pastor of, uh, Renovation Church in Atlanta. He serves on a bunch of different nonprofit boards that promote human flourishing. He regularly speaks at conferences nationally, and globally. And he is the author of a number of books, which one of them we’re gonna talk about today. Rich Birch — And we’ve also got our returning guest, our friend, Warren Bird, from the ECFA, Evangelical Council of for Financial Accountability. Uh, and he’s co-authored so many books I I’ve lost track. I just can’t, you know, I can’t, you know, don’t know about all those – there’s just a lot of them. Uh, and we love Warren. He’s been on the show multiple times, and we’re super glad to have him back. Together they’ve worked with our friend, Ryan Hartwig, and they’ve co-authored a book, “The Resilience Factor: A Step-by-Step Guide to Catalyze an Unbreakable Team”. And I just wanna put my bias right out there at the beginning – friends, I want you to pick up copies of this book for your team. We’re gonna dive deep in with them today. Welcome to the show, guys. So glad you’re here. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — So glad to be here, Rich. Thank you so much, my friend. Rich Birch — It’s gonna be good. Léonce, why don’t we start with you? So, this is a ton of work, putting a book together. Man, it’s a lot of effort. By yourself it’s a lot of effort, let alone coordinating with two other authors – that’s like triple the work. Uh, so what’s the heart behind this? Why, what, what led you to say, Hey, we, we should write this book. You know, what, what, what pulled you to say, let’s put this together? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. Um, I actually was invited onto the project, uh, by Ryan and Warren. And it immediately sparked my interest because coming outta the disruptions of Covid-19, I’ve realized, and, and we agree, and we actually put this in the book, that one of the things leaders are going to have to reconcile going forward is that disruption is normal. And the relative stability, maybe that we have enjoyed, uh, over a couple of decades of leadership is actually abnormal. Uh, in fact, we share a story toward the end of the book talking about hypothetically, what if you were born, uh, in a certain era, you would’ve navigated multiple wars, a financial crisis, the Great Depression right on the heels of each other. And so as leaders, I was, I was inspired and challenged to write this book with them, because as leaders, I think the great lesson we have to learn coming outta Covid, especially in modern times, is that disruption is our normal. So how do you lead when, when disruption is reality? Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so good. That’s, well, I think that’s, that’s a really good insight for sure. And that it’s, it’s, you know, in some ways it’s fascinating that, and if you think of everything that’s happened in the last two or three years, it has been just one thing after another. Covid’s obviously a signpost, but there’s been, there’s been a number of things that just continue to, you know, wave over us. Rich Birch — Well, Warren, well, part of the, the, the subtitle here is breaking is, is making an unbreakable team, really catalyzing an unbreakable team. And, you know, I would assume in that the kind of undercurrent of that is, man, maybe particularly in the church world, that’s not the norm. Like, that’s not, that’s not normal. Why is it that we seem to struggle with, you know, team development, building high performance teams in the local church? Warren Bird — That is such a good question. After all these, Rich, you for years have sounded the, the alarm and the challenge of building a high performance, high quality, effective team. And so have many others and lots of literature. And by the way, we try to pull from the best of the research to—in in the book, uh, wrapped around stories—uh, of okay, what really makes a good team? But looking underneath, why haven’t we built good teams? And especially now, coming outta the pandemic. You know, on the one hand, everybody is like vacationing with a vengeance. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. Warren Bird — There’s, there’s just this pent up, Hey, let’s really go gangbusters. But, but we don’t see the same thing happening with teams. There’s, well, you know, you’re kind of, uh, worn out and I, I don’t want you to quit. And, and I don’t want you to, to, to have to take on too much and imbalance your life. So this idea of, of vacation with a vengeance applied to let’s, let’s, as a team seek God for something that only he could do, and that, that it would take all of us to do, and none of us could do by ourselves. Um, what might that look like and how do we build the, the resilience that when we get knocked down, uh, to be able to pop back up and say, no, no, no, we’re, we’re going for it. We’re working together. High trust, um, safe environment – how do we do all that? I don’t honestly know beyond… why that hasn’t happened beyond like the Ephesians 4:11 and 12, that, that the role of the pastor and leader is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And yet we do it all ourselves. And here’s team throughout the New Testament, and yet, we tend to do it ourselves. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s, uh, that, that’s a very good insight. Léonce, um, you, the book title has resilience right in the middle of it. Obviously, this is key to, you know, making an unbreakable team. Unpack that a bit more. When you guys say resilient, what is a, what is a resilient team? What’s that resilient factor? What are, what are, you know, what does that look like? How do I know, you know, is my team resilient? What does that look like? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. Um, the, the idea actually was born of a Mike Tyson quote that did not, uh, make it the book… Rich Birch — Love it. We’re getting extra content! Léonce B. Crump Jr. — I hoped that it would. But many of your listeners will probably recall Mike Tyson saying, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.” Rich Birch — Yes. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — And, and so as we were shaping and crafting this work, that idea is really what came rushing to the surface is, at the end of the day, if disruption is normal, right? If disruption is normal, uh, then education, management techniques, tenure—those things—natural skills and abilities—those things aren’t necessarily gonna help you navigate disruption. Uh, what you need, what what we see as the secret sauce to great teams and great leaders is the ability to take a lick and keep going. In fact, uh, one way we define it there in the book is, uh, resilient means that you are able to become strong, healthy, and successful after a challenge or a difficulty. So, so there’s a measure of flexibility as well as strength. Uh, and it’s an understanding that you’re not just surviving, but you’re adapting to the new normal. You’re, you’re becoming something different to navigate the reality in front of you after you’ve absorbed blows. Believe is, is going be the call to, to great teams going forward. Probably always has been. Probably the missing key to, to, to, uh, so many of the challenges we’ve experienced as, as teams and as leaders. Uh, but the ability to return to shape after being pulled, stretched, pressed, uh, and still be effective going forward. That’s what it means to be resilient. Rich Birch — Hmm. Warren Bird — And Rich, we haven’t seen that much about of it. And so because we don’t have that role modeling, we don’t know what to aspire to, to say, think that that’s even possible. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — That’s right. Rich Birch — Yeah. So, Warren, sticking with you, this idea, it’s step by step. Uh, let’s, what is the first step? So if I say, okay, I want to, I want my, we’re not gonna be able to get to everything, but what is, you know, the first step that we need to take as a, as a team to, or as a leader, I need to take with my people to increase our, uh, our resilience factor. Warren Bird — We broke the book into eight blocks, which are sort of a sequence. And the very first sequence is pray and assess your situation. Really to ask God, give me insight. And, and, and it’s gonna unpack with who should be on the team, who shouldn’t? Uh, what kind, why are my meetings kind of boring? Uh, how do we do accountability? How do we reproduce ourselves? All that begins with saying, Lord, you gotta do something. We, we can have the best research, the best books out there, the best everything, but unless you’re at work and that we’re doing what you want, it’s really all for nothing. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. And I, I would add to that, Rich, we, we leveraged the Nehemiah story in that first movement. And one of the things that Nehemiah did so wonderful, uh, is understand the current reality in which he found himself as well. And, and so right outta the gate, even before we get to these different steps, we talk about the new realities that we’re facing as leaders. Number one, today’s world, generally distrusts leadership. Number two, uh, team leadership is here to stay. It is the way forward. Number three, for many of us, your team is largely a new team. Uh, number four, your new team comes with new expectations. Number five, the pandemic may be officially over, but its effects will ripple for years to come. So we kinda walk through each of these new realities as the foundation for saying, you know, if this is true, and, and I believe all signs point to it being true, then the very first thing we have to do, especially as spiritual leaders, is take a step back as Nehemiah did, and say, okay, the, the city’s on fire, the walls are burning. Uh, there’s not much strength or support. Where do we go from here? First to the Lord, and then to actually make a point. Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. So, uh, sticking with you, sir. Uh, one of the things I’m, I’m sure as you’ve, you know, people have been starting to pre-read the book and you’ve started to share some of this content. Um, I’m sure there’s some of it that’s bumped up as being like, wow, this is like the most helpful. This is the part that people seem to be really be resonating with. What is that, Léonce, that they keep coming back to and saying like, oh, this, this part particular—I know all of it’s amazing, I know every part of it’s amazing—but, but is there any piece of it that particularly has been the most helpful, uh, as leaders have been engaging with these ideas? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — So, so my feedback, and, and I’m sure Warren can, uh, speak to this as well, but with the folks that I’ve had in my immediate circle read the book, the two things, um, that have really, uh, energized them the most has been the idea of clarifying your purpose, which is movement number two. We, we really, really find, um, that a lot of teams – now we may know the church’s purpose, but what is your team’s purpose within the scope of a church’s purpose? Uh, and then how to build a a great team -movement number three. We call it gathering all stars [inaudible] reminding people that you don’t have to settle. Uh, you can actually build a team of top performers if you’re intentional and strategic about it. Rich Birch — Love that. Well, Warren, one of the things I love about your work, uh, is that it is often infused with these great stories, like you are, and even before today’s call, you were digging for, Hey, what about insights and let’s, you know, find stories, find people… Uh, is was there a story in this book that stands out to you that particularly typifies, you know, what the resilience factor looks like? Is there a story of a, a church or a team that, uh, you know, that kind of captures your imagination around what that looks like? Warren Bird — The opening story is about a fire. And, Rich, how ironic I’m talking to you in Canada and in the news, uh, for quite some time, it’s been, uh, Canadian fires that uh… Rich Birch – Yes. Warren Bird — …the smoke has drifted, uh, to where I’m based in New York, uh, just outside of New York City. But, uh, Paradise, California – the town, uh, in essence burned down. And so many people left, but there was one church, Paradise Alliance Church, that said, no, we’re gonna stay. And all the rules are different about who we are, even as a leadership team, and what we’re trying, what our roles are. But we are going to, if you will, find the resilience necessary to take on the challenges of rebuilding the community. And, and for at least the first year, they became the community gathering point. They did meals for the community, they helped the community bond—those who stayed and all—and they demonstrated the power of resilience and, and the pains that that, that each team member of the church’s leadership team had to, had to deal with their own needs of, of grieving and, and adjustment, and of playing a new role on the team. Warren Bird — And yet, looking back, they would all agree, together, God used us to do something far beyond what any of us could have imagined, and way far beyond what any of us could have done alone. And we have loved being on the team. It became a high trust, psychologically-safe environment, uh, to growing. Rich Birch — Fascinating. Uh, good alliance story there too. I, you know, my childhood was in the Christian Missionary Alliance. Always good to get a, a plug in there for A. B. Simpson’s, uh, crowd. So that’s a good thing. Uh, Léonce, uh, one of the things that’s interesting in church leadership is, um—and I’d love your perspective on this—you know, you are clearly, you’re a dynamic communicator. You are, um, you know, the kind of person that people follow. And I think there is a misnomer that often, uh, churches that have dynamic communicators in the leadership position, it’s like, it’s all about them. That’s just not true. Like, that isn’t, a church doesn’t grow and have a kind of impact if, uh, leaders haven’t built teams around them. Uh, but maybe you could talk about that tension of how do you, as a, as a dynamic communicator, as a, you know, um, a dynamic leader, build a team of other people around you that are also, Hey, these are go-getters. These are stallions that want to get lots done, these they wanna, you know, make, change the world. How do you, how do you live that tension out? How does that, how do you attract those kinds of people? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. I am a huge proponent of Ephesians 4, and, uh, and, and really do believe that the strength of our mission and the strength of our ministry can’t rest on one gift. Uh, it can’t rest on one set of skills. It can’t rest on, on, uh, you know, one leader’s capacity. And, and in fact, the bottlenecks that we’ve experienced over the years at the church, uh, and some that we’re still wrestling through now on the other side of Covid, you know, just to give you kinda our, our story arc. You know, we’re a scratch plant in downtown Atlanta. Three people in the living room, uh, before Covid, we were about 13- 1400 people. After Covid were half that and, and trying to build back to it. Uh, my preaching alone is not gonna get us there. Uh, in fact, I, I know some of the most dynamic communicators that I know are leading churches that are averaging 100 to 150 people. Uh, preaching doesn’t build a church, and even great leadership doesn’t build a church. It’s, it’s the ability to lead through others and even be led by them in their area of expertise and specialty that actually builds great teams. And so, I try to put myself in a position where, where I’m not a material expert or even the point authority over a particular area, uh, I put myself in the submission of the leadership of my team. Uh, and that makes us a stronger unit altogether. Rich Birch — Love that. Warren Bird — Rich, could I say something about Léonce that he probably won’t say? And that is, uh, as we were investigating doing this book together, uh, Ryan Hartwig, the lead author, and I went to his church and sat with his team, and, uh, and were wowed. And then as we worked together as authors, we not only had to figure out how do you do team with the three of us, but really each of our effectiveness was contingent on the team that was supporting each of us. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Warren Bird — And so it really, as we went, so they went and as they went, so we went. And, uh, boy was the idea of health in teams, uh, abundantly apparent as we worked together on this book about unbreakable teams. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. And yeah, shout out to Ryan Hartwig. I just, he what a great guy. And he, even in my own life, he, when he when we were at Liquid Church, when I was at Liquid Church, and he came and spent some time with us, and, you know, he asked this haunting question there that day, which still haunts me to this day, which is, well, it wasn’t a question, it was a statement. He said, Hey, you have to lead with more questions. Stop answering so many questions. Like, stop, because all you’re doing is getting everybody to, you know, come to you. And I was like, oh, no. That is like, uh, it still bugs me. So, Ryan, you’re still in my head, uh, you know, effective, uh, piece of coaching for sure. Uh, definitely. So, Léonce, a book like this, as you’re working it, uh, you end up reflecting on your own leadership, your own, your own, Hey, like, what am I doing and how am I changing? The, the work of trying to, you know, externalize ideas changes us. Um, when, how did this book change your leadership? Was there something as you went through this that it was like, oh, hey, I, I maybe need to change my game a little bit, or, or, I’m growing, or maybe asking new questions. What does, what’s that look like for you? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. It, it really surfaced for me a lot of great questions about our team and where we are and what we need and, and, and where there are missing pieces, where I’ve missed the mark on even, uh, applying some of my own principles that show up in this book. And so, um, much like a Sunday sermon from time to time, there was a great deal of conviction that as I was writing and advising, I was looking at things that I have not been doing consistently. Uh, and then getting the book in front of my team as well, uh, brought great new challenges because we realized that even as well as we function, and, and, and I, as Warren said, I wouldn’t say that about myself, uh, you know, to, to try and take care and not, um, not over, uh, uh, oversell my leadership or our team’s dynamics. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — But, uh, I found that there were gaps in congruence and incongruencies, even in our perspective on the vision. Like, we are, like, we’re sharing the vision, but, but how we’re looking at it, the angle from which we’re looking at it, we found gaps even as we worked through some of this material, uh, to operationalize it before we handed it out to the world. So it was really a growing and challenging time, writing with two other authors, trying to find a common voice, uh, realizing what my tendencies are and what they are not, uh, and what is most helpful and what’s not. Uh, all of those things kind of came to a, a, uh, boiling point there as, uh, as we did this work and, and, and really saw the effects of it across my internal team as well as the team of, uh, of Ryan and Warren and myself. Rich Birch — And was there anything, when you look even like a specific behavior or… Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Mm-hmm. Rich Birch — …you know, an approach that shifted, could you let us in a little bit insight on that? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — I can. Um, one specific behavior that I am, uh, diligently working on is not speaking first. Because when I speak, um, even at a table of, uh, of co-leaders, and I do treat them that way, uh, if I speak, it becomes a dictum. And so in order to, to actually draw the best outta the people I’m leading with, uh, I’m the last with a solution. I’m the last with a response. It creates a lot of awkward silence, uh, from time to time. Uh, but that is a very specific thing. I, I am, uh, are you familiar with the working genius? Rich Birch — Yep, yep, yep. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — So, so I’m I.D. So, so I’m inventing, and then I’m discerning. So it’s very easy for me to get from A to Z without talking to anybody, because I’ve thought through, uh, all of the potentialities. Uh, but what that does is completely neutralize other people’s contributions and talents and giftings. So that was one very specific thing that surfaced during this time. Rich Birch — Well, like that alone, friends, is gold – what you just heard. Uh, that’s great coaching for us to be thinking about. Hey, even just functionally in conversations, let’s not be the first to, let’s not be the first to answer. Let’s not be the first to jump in. Warren Bird — So, Rich, you wouldn’t say this about you, but you had Patrick Lencioni himself… Rich Birch — Yes. Warren Bird — …on your podcast, talking about his, uh, latest book. Rich Birch — Yeah, “Working Genius”. It’s great. Yeah, Patrick’s amazing. Warren Bird — So insightful. Yes. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. So, Warren, one of the things that you promised in this book is a series of exercises, team exercises, individuals, uh, things that we can do. We don’t wanna make our listeners buy the book, although we do want to buy it. Give us a, a description of one of those kinds of activities that’s in it that could, you know, help us think about how we increase our resilience factor. Warren Bird — Well, case backstory, we really argued, we, we held up, uh, max Donald Miller books to the publisher, and we said, this is what we want our books to look like with actually, like exercises in the book. And, uh, they translated that as, oh, like study questions at the end of the chapter. Rich Birch — Yes. Warren Bird — And that’s not it at all. These are, Okay, pause and talk about it. We have, we have group exercises to do as a team, and we have individual exercises that, you know, write down your understanding of your team’s purpose. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Mmm-hmm. Warren Bird — And answer these questions about the purpose, and now compare that with others. And by the way, that exercise is just so rich, because as Léonce said a few minutes ago, so often the leadership team of a church just takes the purpose statement of the church and says, well, that’s us. Well, if you think about that for just a second, that falls apart because then you’re doing everything and the purpose of the church? Then why is anybody else needed? Rich Birch — Right. Warren Bird — And really, can you do the whole mission of the church? So you gotta figure out what our niche is as a team. And when we, when we read some people—you were in the same room on the same team, and this is the purpose statement that each of you wrote—as different as night and day. That’s a really helpful exercise. And we try to do it in, in a framework of psychological safety and, and trust. And we’ve got that, those elements, trust-building, sprinkled throughout the book. By the way, trust-building is not from doing trust falls and other… Rich Birch – [laughs] Léonce B. Crump Jr. — That’s right. Warren Bird — Those, those create bonding. But it’s the little wins together as a team that actually creates the durable trust to now go for a bigger win as a team. And there’s an exercise on that too. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. It’s like a whole training curriculum for, uh, you know, our churches. What’s such a, what a huge gift that you guys have put together. This is what I always find astonishing about books, is it’s like the amount of work that goes in to, to compress all of this down, to get it into, you know, and it’s tons of time and effort and research and thinking, and then it’s like 15 bucks or whatever you’re charging for it. Uh, man, we get to access all that, that what a gift that is to, uh, you know, to the church. I really appreciate you guys, uh, you know, pulling this together. Um, so Léonce, where can people get this book if they’re, I know you’ve got a website, resiliencefactor.info, uh, we could send them there. Are there other places that they could pick up copies of this book? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. Warren Bird — Well, Léonce, why don’t you tell ’em what’s on that website, because it’s, it’s not just a picture of you and me. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — And, and, and, uh, Ryan. Rich Birch — Yes. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. Um, actually, resiliencefactor.info is an interactive site. Uh, where we have provided some, some extra, or we have provided some extra tools and materials, uh, and things that will help to further your leadership. There’s also an opportunity to interact with us. And so, uh, we, we shot a little video on management versus leadership. We provided some, uh, worksheets and some other tools that, that go beyond the book itself. So the website will be a great resource no matter what not, not just to order the book. As far as getting the book itself? Anywhere books are sold, uh, it will be available. Order in bulk from IVP and, uh, take all of your teams uh through it… Warren Bird — Well, and in fact, InterVarsity had this idea of, well, if this is a book about team building, then we should give generous discounts… Léonce B. Crump Jr. — That’s right. Warren Bird — …to people who buy them in bulk. So go to the InterVarsity site if you’re thinking, oh, I’ll get one for each team member or staff member or whatever. There’s some sweet discounts. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah. And that, that’s what struck me as I’m, you know, thinking about this, is I’m, you know, lots of us are looking for a training resource and we’re looking for, Hey, what, you know, you know, maybe we’re thinking about a Christmas gift even this time of year. Like, hey, maybe for the end of this year, or, you know, we’re looking for a fall training. And this really struck me as that. This would be a great resource to get for our entire team. Hey, let’s go through it. We’ve got some great activities here. Uh, it’ll push us, it’ll get us to ask those questions. So yeah, I’d strongly suggest again that that website is just resiliencefactor.info and the link to the IVP, uh, pages on there. So just go there. You can click through that if you’re gonna buy, you know, the, the bulk books and all that, you can just get that there. That’s, uh, you know, that’s amazing. Rich Birch — Well, what’s, what are, what’s your hope here, Warren, with this book? What’s your, your dream? Like, uh, you know, what, what, when you’re, you’re hoping for transformation in the teams that are, you know, that are gonna read this, what did you have in mind as you were working with these two fine gentlemen to pull this together? Warren Bird — Well, my second purpose comes outta my research hat, and that is, I wanna get good information for people about team dynamics and what does success look like, and how do you go from one level to another. And we really took the best literature in the field. We translated into very user-friendly ideas, and we built it into different vignettes in the book. So I, I love, you know, I’m kind of the myth MythBuster lover. And, uh, so to me, I’m, I’m putting good information. This is not just how our team did something. This is what the best research says. But even beyond that, I really want to challenge people to go beyond the, the mediocre. We, we so often doesn’t, I, I mean, when we got married, nobody says, well, I take you to, and we’re gonna have a mediocre marriage. But, but too often things settle down because that’s what we see all around us. But, but there’s a spark still inside us that says, no, there’s gotta be more. And I hope people read this book and they say, ah, I, I’ve always known our team could be a whole lot better than it is. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah. Warren Bird — You’re gonna help us get there. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. What a great, what a great vision. And part of what I appreciate about your leadership, Warren, and your, your writing is, uh, you do push for, like, these aren’t just like soft ideas or like, like those are, it’s rhymes so it must be true. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — [laughs] Rich Birch — You know, you’re trying to find based stuff on research, and have pushed me in my own work and have been in a very kind way, I don’t know if I’ve ever said this publicly, but in kind way you’ve given me feedback that’s like, Hey, you know, you could do better. We didn’t quite say it like that, but you could do better. And, and that I think gets, that’s why people come back to you time and again, Warren. I just want to honor you in front of, uh, you know, in front of everybody today, cuz you do such a good job on that. Rich Birch — Well, Léonce, we’re gonna give you the last word as we kind of wrap up today’s episode. Is there anything else you want to share before we close up today’s conversation? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah, I, I just wanna encourage all of the leaders out there, uh, to not be discouraged. God’s hand is still on you. There’s great work for you to do. Don’t take the disruptions as a sign, uh, that things are coming undone. Take ’em as an opportunity. Uh, something that our team has been talking about recently is reframing the situation and saying out loud, God chose us to lead through this time. What a privilege. Rich Birch — Amen. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — And, uh, and I hope the book will be helpful in cementing that [inaudible]. Rich Birch — That’s so good. That’s so good. Well, um, Warren, if people wanna track with you, where do we want to send them online? Do wanna send them to the ECFA, uh, website or, you know, how do we, if they want to kind of continue to follow the Warren Bird story? Warren Bird — ECFA for Evangelical Counsel for Financial Accountability, which I was so impressed you said. So just rattle it off, Rich.You, you’ve got my wow book early on here. Rich Birch — Sure. Warren Bird — ecfa.org/surveys – and then you can find the stuff that we’ve done like, uh, The New Faces of Church Planting, which Rich, you were so good in helping promote the largest ever study of, uh, in nor across North America, not just, uh US of what’s happening in church planting, including, uh, through the pandemic. Uh, so that’s the best place. And then I’m on LinkedIn is I’m probably, that’s my most active social media. Rich Birch — Love it. And then Léonce, where do we wanna send people, if they wanna track with you or track with the church? Léonce B. Crump Jr. — @leoncecrump, uh, on any social media, uh LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, I’m there. And then @renovationatl, uh, on Instagram or Facebook. Rich Birch — Love it. And I, I was on your website earlier and I noticed that you had your workout regime on your website and I was super intimidated. I was like, man, I gotta step up my game. So I, uh, I appreciate that you posted that publicly. That’s a great thing. So… Warren Bird — And those of you who are listing and not seeing, uh, Léonce is a former NFL football player and also former wrestler. Uh, so he, he literally picks up a lot, including me, in… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great Warren Bird — …one of our gatherings. Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, I appreciate you gentlemen being here today. I really hope this book helps. I know it’s gonna help tons of people. I hope lots of people pick it up. So thanks so much for being, uh, here today on the show. Warren Bird — Thanks, Rich. Léonce B. Crump Jr. — Yeah, thanks for having us.

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Becca Pountney, the UK’s number one wedding business marketing expert and host of the podcast Wedding Pros Who Are Ready to Grow. Did you know that many wedding professionals have a negative perception of church weddings? From difficulty accessing church buildings and strict rules, to grumpy ministry staff and poor communication, it’s no wonder that wedding pros would prefer to steer clear of church weddings. But what if there’s a way to change this perception? Listen as Becca shares solutions to working with wedding professionals, and encourages church leaders to look at weddings as a way to serve those who might not otherwise come into a church. Churches are still a place for weddings. // When Becca surveyed her audience about holding weddings in churches, the first response she got was that churches are still a place where people should get married. A couple may not attend church regularly or only go at Christmas, but many still want to get married in a church and are interested in Bible readings and even Christian songs. On the flip side, however, working with churches can be a huge challenge which turns people off to having a church wedding. Shift your mindset. // It’s easy to think that couples from the community who want a church wedding only care about the pretty building or location, not what’s happening in the church. But Becca challenges church leaders to shift their mindset. Each year about 22% of weddings in the US happening in religious buildings; that’s over 300,000 weddings annually that could take place in a church. Think about how to use these opportunities to serve the community and demonstrate to people that the church is a welcoming place. Aim to be accommodating, whether it’s to wedding professionals, the bride and groom, or the guests. Many may never have come into a church before, so show them Jesus. Communicate expectations. // When a wedding is held at hotels or other locations, the wedding professionals typically have had a lot of communication with the venue to make arrangements. But when working with a church, sometimes wedding pros are expected to show up the day of the wedding and figure everything out for themselves. Be sure to communicate expectations or restrictions ahead of time so that wedding pros can adapt as needed. Be ready to answer questions and have a point person available for phone calls. Think about details. // Similarly to how you try to welcome and serve visitors during weekend church services, build a volunteer team that could serve during a wedding. Volunteers can help with parking, offer tea or coffee, welcome guests, provide directions to bathrooms, and much more. In addition, coordinate with the florists, photographers, musicians, etc. to get an understanding of what these people need. Be clear about the rules. // Make sure the couple and the parties working with them know the restrictions you have in your church. Explain the reasons for your rules so everyone knows why they are in place. Offer people solutions rather than objections. Get to know the couple. // When a couple who doesn’t attend your church approaches you about a having their wedding there, see it as the exciting opportunity that it is. Meet with them and get to know them. Ask questions about why they are interested in being married at the church. You can even offer a simple pre-marriage course such as the free one created by Alpha. If you are officiating the wedding, pray about how you can communicate the gospel during that time. Spread the word. // If you are ready to open up your church to weddings in the community and use it as a ministry, network to find out who are the wedding pros in your area. Host an event to showcase what happens when people get married in your church. Visit local wedding shows and introduce yourself to people. You can learn more about Becca Pountney at her website beccapountney.com as well as read her most popular blog post on five great Bible readings to use at church weddings. Plus, learn more about Alpha’s free pre-marriage course. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you. And today is no exception. I’m super excited to have my friend, Becca Pountney, with us. She is the UK’s number one wedding business marketing expert. She really helps them build a network of wedding industry contacts, and she provides all kinds of great advice around marketing strategy. And she has a bunch of business training. She’s been featured on places like BBC, Huffington Post, the Herald & Post, and now unSeminary – that just fits, just rolls off the tongue. Uh, she also has her own podcast called “Wedding Pros Who Are Ready to Grow”. Becca, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Becca Pountney — Thanks for having me, Rich. It’s an absolute pleasure. Rich Birch — Yeah, this is gonna be fun. Now, people might be saying, wait a second, this is a little different than a normal, uh, podcast, which is exactly right. But why don’t, before we get into what we’re talking about today, kind of give me a bit of your background. Tell us a little bit about, you know, your business, tell us about, you know, what you do, who you help, all that kind of stuff. Fill in that picture. Becca Pountney — Yeah, absolutely. So my background’s actually in television and radio marketing. And I worked in that industry in live TV for a few years. And then I got married, and wanted to start a family. And I decided that the television and radio industry just wasn’t conducive to any of those things because I wanted to be there for my kids. I wanted to see my husband and the hours were crazy. So I jumped across, started a wedding videography business so that I could work it around my kids. And I started a networking group because I’m big on building relationships, building connections. So I set up a little group in my area to start networking with other wedding professionals, and inviting them along. And very quickly it became apparent that they were asking me a lot about sales and marketing because that was what my background was in, in the television and radio. Becca Pountney — And I found that I could just spend a few minutes with people and really help elevate their business. And they said to me, it’s really different because most people keep secrets back. They don’t wanna share, they don’t wanna help us grow. And I was like, I don’t understand that. I want like a rising tide raises all ships. Let’s all help each other. And so that’s how it started, really. And I started very local, just helping people with their social media, helping them with their visibility. And over time it’s grown. I now have a wedding blog for couples, all about planning their wedding. I have wedding industry courses, my podcast membership, and, and it’s just my heart really to see people grow in their businesses and realize that they can do something that fits around their family, around their kids, and still be successful. Rich Birch — Love it. Well, um, friends, Becca and I are in a coaching group with a guy by the name of Chris Ducker. He was on the podcast, actually about a year ago. Uh, and we got talking, uh, about our kind of shared background. And there’s this interesting kind of overlap between, uh, what we do in the church world trying to, uh, serve our communities, and what Becca does with her people in, you know, weddings. And so we just kind of stumbled on this thing and I was like, wait, I just learned something new. You know, they, they talk about the Jahari window, right? There’s that like you, it’s like a whole area of thing you did not know. And then all of a sudden, you know it. Now you see it everywhere. And, uh, and she shared with me this fact, that apparently, and I want you to kind of flesh this out for us, apparently folks in the wedding planning wedding kind of industry, they look at you and I, friends, church leaders, in non-favorable light. How about we say it that way? Tell, tell us about this. What, what this, this kind of shocked me. And then, and then I, as I thought about it more, I was like, oh, maybe it shouldn’t actually shock me. But I wanna talk about this today and we wanna ultimately move towards solutions. But, but tell me about it. What, when you’re talking to other wedding planning pros, people about your, uh, you know about working with church leaders, what do they say? Becca Pountney — Okay, so this is something that’s really close to my heart because it breaks my heart every time I hear people speaking about the church. So I’m a Christian, I became a Christian at 18. Um, I love Jesus, and I go to church. And when I talk to people in my industry about their experience of church as a wedding professional, it’s incredibly negative, and often even they might not even realize I’m a Christian yet and they’re just talking openly about their experience. And they’ll say things like, I just hate having weddings at churches. I wish I never got booked for weddings at churches. And because of my interest in the area, I often dig a little bit deeper into that conversation and try and understand well why? Like, why are you so anti-church weddings? So after me and you got chatting, Rich, I posted in my group. So I have a group, um, of just under a thousand wedding professionals and I just posed the question, tell me what you think about church weddings. Rich Birch — Oh, good. Becca Pountney — To just get some insight. Rich Birch — Oh yeah. This is good. Juicy insight. Yes, absolutely. Becca Pountney — So here’s some juicy stuff because this is direct from the wedding professionals. So the first comment was interesting to me because the first person said, I think churches are a place where people should get married. So there’s obviously that kind of undertone that people still see church, and marriage, and weddings as the same thing, like traditional. So they’d say things like, oh, I don’t actually go to church, or I only go at Christmas, but I definitely wanted to get married in a church. So that was kind of insight one. Okay, people still link, you know, Christianity, church, together with weddings. Then came the hard-hitting stuff and I’m gonna share it as it is, and then we’re gonna gonna find the solutions afterwards. Becca Pountney — So people had lots of complaints around the access to church buildings, not being able to park, not being able to get into the buildings. Photographers turning up last because they’ve been taking photos at the “getting ready” situation. They’ve turned up at the church, there’s nowhere for them to park, and then they’re late. Uh, we had people talking about the amount of rules surrounding church weddings. So they say as soon as they see church wedding, they see rules. So many rules, they can’t do this, they can’t do that. Whereas when they’re getting married in a hotel, there’s not so many rules. And they see church rules combined. Uh, grumpy Vicars, grumpy pastors was huge on the list. So, which again, it just, these things hurt my heart, like to hear it. Just, I’m like, no, this is not what we wanna hear. So turning up to weddings, people being rude to them, people saying, we don’t like you kind of people cuz you’re annoying when you’re taking photos of the wedding. Becca Pountney — One awful story where the vicar made the photographer sit outside for the duration of the ceremony in the snow because he did not trust her not to take a photo during the ceremony. Rich Birch — Oh my goodness. Becca Pountney — And poor communication. So, so many sad negative things surrounding this. And I thought, okay, I can see this now. I can see why you are saying to me we don’t like church weddings because they’ve equated all of these negative things with being booked for a church wedding. And we know that that doesn’t need to be the experience, but that is what’s happening out there. Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, so that’s, so I love how you broke that down. Obviously the practical thing, the, um, rules, grumpy pastors, poor communication. Um, now it’s funny, this was the same experience I had when we talked where I was like, initially I was like, on behalf of all my dear listeners, I was like, defensive. I was like, no, that can’t be the case. But then I paused very quickly and I was like, oh no, I can see this, this, I can see why this happens. Like I can, I can see it from the, you know, the, the church side. You know, I think there, this can be one of those places where we intersect with people who don’t normally attend church. And although our, like our intentions might be good, what actually rolls out is not that, uh, not that helpful. Can we zero in on those last two grumpy pastors and poor communication, particularly. Cuz I feel like those man, we could, we could cover a lot of ground there. Talk us, talk to us about those, what, you know, what were the kinds of things people were experiencing, you know, in around those issues? Becca Pountney — So one thing around poor communication is that when they turn up to a wedding at a hotel, at a registry office, often the suppliers have had a lot of contact with those places ahead of time. So maybe the venue people have reached out, they expect to see their insurance certificates, and they have conversations about the venue, how it works, all of those kind of things. It seems to be when they have a church wedding that they’re just expected to turn up on the day, and then find those things out for themselves. So there’s definitely a gap there where there’s just not that same level of expectation because wedding professionals, you know, they understand whatever building they’re in, in, whether it’s a listed building, whether it’s a hotel, whether it’s a church, there’s gonna be different restrictions, different things that are gonna come up, but they’re willing to adapt to if they can know that back and forth. Becca Pountney — So I think that was one of the big things. The second one was a along the grumpy pastors scenario. Rich Birch — Sure. Becca Pountney — I think I understand it, right, because all of these people are coming in and I think it’s easy for us to have a mindset of, oh, these people are just coming here to get married in a church, and they don’t really care about what’s going on in the church; they just want the pretty building. And we’re kind of looking at that with the wrong head space. And so I think sometimes that can reflect because, you know, we know that couples can be demanding; they can have ridiculous expectations. They can want us to work and, they wanna do their rehearsal at a certain time of day and it doesn’t fit in with us. And so we can come to the, the table in a bit of a negative head space. And I hope what we get out of today, and what I wanna encourage people who are listening to is to, let’s stop thinking about the, the difficulties of these things, but let’s flip it around and realize this is an incredibly exciting opportunity. And we should be using these events, these weddings, these things are, are bringing people into our church for good and we should be excited about them. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Uh, you know, even that, and, and I, we are gonna get to some solutions here friends, so don’t worry, we’re not just gonna keep picking this scab. Uh, but you know, on the communication piece, that’s like one of those, uh, in lots of or or lots of the churches that are listening in on the weekends, they’re trying to do things to frame the experience for people who are not normally here. You know, we’re, we’re trying to figure out what we can do to ensure that people feel comfortable. But I can see where, man, if we just put a little bit of work into, even just putting together like a one or two page PDF that just kind of talked about, Hey, this is how, this is how our building works, here is where the bathrooms are. You know, here is the, you know, those kinds of things, man, that could go a long way. Rich Birch — And, and you know, this is where, and this is what I love about you, you’re such a positive, you know, future-oriented, you wanna make things better person, which is great. But to me, I, I listen, listened to this and I thought, man, wouldn’t it be amazing if the people who are listening to this podcast got the reputation in their town—cuz it seems like this is like industry wide—wouldn’t it be amazing if they were the people that got the reputation in their town of being like, you know, I don’t really like all those other churches, but that one church man, they’re amazing. Like they’re, and and it became actually a referral source. It became like, Hey, I’m gonna actually point wedding pros are actually gonna point people towards, uh, your church. So maybe let’s pivot into solutions a little bit. What, what are some of the things… I’m gonna leverage the fact that you’re the pro. Help us understand what can we do better to serve wedding pros as they engage with our ministries? Becca Pountney — Okay. So the first thing is we need to understand the size and the excitement of the opportunity and we need to be praying into that. So so I grabbed some statistics before this call because I just love having some numbers to understand the size of the opportunity. So in the media, you will hear all the time, church weddings are in decline. And that is true. The trend is that church weddings are going down, however, there’s still a lot of them happening. So here in the UK, 18% of weddings are happening in church buildings. Now in the UK that’s 39,945 church weddings happening a year. Rich Birch — Wow. Becca Pountney — Now, if we imagine for a second that on the conservative side, 50 guests are coming to that wedding, right? That’s just shy of 2 million people entering a church building… Rich Birch — Wow. Becca Pountney — …in a calendar year to come to a wedding. Now, if we look at the US, which is obviously a huge, hugely bigger market. So we know that 22% of weddings in the US happen in a religious building. So even if we say, okay, some of them might be other religions, let’s take 15% as coming into a church. That’s 345,000 church weddings in a year. Which means, again, a conservative estimate of 50 people coming into the building, that’s 17 million people coming to into a church building for a wedding every year. This is an incredibly… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s huge. Becca Pountney — …exciting opportunity and we need to be thinking like, we need to be praying that people wanna come into our church building, that they wanna have their weddings here, and how can we use that as an opportunity to show them Jesus, and to show them that we’re a welcoming place, that we’re a great place to be. Becca Pountney — So that’s the first thing I think people to do… Rich Birch — Love it. Becca Pountney — …is just kinda understand how exciting this is. And it, it is exciting. When I got married myself way back in 2010, I knew it was one of the only opportunities I was really gonna have to invite all of my friends and family into a church building, to have them sit down, be there, because they, they love me and my now husband. But also listen to someone preaching, singing the songs, like doing all of the things. And I knew this is exciting. I need to make the most of this opportunity, and make sure everyone who comes to my wedding leaves feeling joyful and knowing that church is a good place.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. That’s, that’s a massive, I would’ve, if you would’ve asked me what, you know, what is the numbers, I would’ve never guessed they were that high. I would’ve never guessed, man. But it’s true. And, and I think fifties shy, like that’s, that’s a low number,. You know, cuz I, you would know what, what’s the average wedding size, say in the UK? What is the average, you know, that people are having at a reception or whatever?Becca Pountney — Yeah. Usually between 80 and 150 guests. Rich Birch — Okay. Becca Pountney — So 50 is on the conservative side.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s amazing. That’s incredible. And you know, there’s obviously, there’s probably two ways to look at this, or there’s prob probably more than two ways to look at this, but, you know, there are the, the bride and the groom, and like the, the wedding pro. And if there’s musicians, there’s like the people that are the closest, the tight group that you’re, that you’re gonna interact with as a church. But then there’s also just the guests in general. What, what do you think we could be doing from a solutions point of view to try to serve those groups, to try to turn around this, uh, negative perception that’s out there?Becca Pountney — Okay, so the first thing is that we need to make sure we are welcoming and accommodating to everybody from day dot…So just as we would for your Christmas services, your Easter services, your Sunday services, like have people around welcoming people. Maybe you can offer a car park attendant that can help people park. Maybe you’ve got a representative from the church on the door, or offering to serve tea and coffee. Like be super welcoming because people are coming into your space and your building. And if we were going into a hotel, we would expect the reception staff, the bar staff, everyone to be on board with the wedding day. So it’s no different in a church. So that first moment that the bride and groom come through the doors, the pros come through the doors, and every single guest that’s coming to that wedding, they should have an incredible welcome. And they should feel part of that building. Becca Pountney — So that’s my first thing. And then be really accommodating to people. So understanding that people don’t understand church, right? So we need to make sure that things are well signed, that there’s understanding of whether they can use the bathroom. Do they have to stand up for the songs? Like be really, really accommodating to people. Because it’s maybe the first time they’ve ever stepped foot in a church, and for many people it may be the first, and possibly last, time they come into your church building.Rich Birch — I love that. So I love this idea of, you know, go out of our way to be more welcoming, um, you know, and even to, you know, find a volunteer group that could help with this, this or could be paid people or whatever. But if, uh, a team of people to help with these, you know, these things. I, yeah, that’s a, to me is a great opportunity. There for sure are people in all of our churches who love weddings. There for sure is that group of people that, um, would be willing to say, you know what, I, you know, it might end up being a dozen times if you’re a really busy location. It might be a dozen, it might be 20 times a year you’re giving up, uh, you know, a Saturday, part of a weekend to come and to help serve.Rich Birch — It doesn’t necessarily need to be you, pastor or vicar, if I happen to be in the UK, um, you know, to, to serve there. But what a great way to get people, uh, engaged. Now, when you think about this, um, ac accommodation piece, drill into this a little bit more. What would you say some of the, uh, the tight spots where, you know, maybe photographers are pushing back or people are like, ah, what they just, they’re, they treat their building with too much, they’re too pristine, they’re too, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re just, they’re, they treat it too much with kid, kid gloves. What would be some of those things we should be thinking about where we could be more accommodating, going out of our way?Becca Pountney — Yeah, so when it comes to working with the professionals who are coming into the building, first of all, speak to the couple and find out who they’re inviting along. So have they got a photographer? Have they got a videographer? Are they getting a florist involved? Like, find out all the information upfront. They’ll be able to tell you that information and get an understanding about what those people need. Do they need access to the building, or when are they coming in? All of those kind of things. So again, communication is key. We need to understand that first of all. Then I would recommend having some conversations with some of the key suppliers, or at least offering to have those conversations. Rich Birch — That’s good. Becca Pountney — So, hey, you, you got a photographer? Like, here’s my, here’s the details of our pastor or our wedding team, or whoever it is. And, uh, we’d love to chat beforehand about the logistics, get in touch, let’s have a quick call, and we can talk these things through. So the, the photographer, the videographer, feels part of it already. They, they feel like, wow, these people really care. They wanna make the experience good for me. And then in that conversation we can identify some of these tight spots. So we mentioned at the beginning a very simple one is parking. So if you know your photographer or your videographer has gotta rush in last minute, they’ve gotta get the shots that under pressure, their stressed. Like, can we just reserve them a parking space? Can we stick a cone in a car park? Can we tell them ahead of time… Rich Birch — Yes. Becca Pountney — …this is the photographer’s parking space because they need to get there and then they need to make a quick getaway at the end as well. So it’s things like that, if we have these conversations and understand the requirements. Do we need, you know, is there gonna be a florist in our building for eight hours? Is there someone there that can bring them a cup of tea or have a chat with them or, you know, it’s the basic things. There’s so many opportunities. Becca Pountney — And then the final thing as well on helping these pros is talking about expectations. So there may be some things around being in the church or things that you expect as a church that you wanna portray to these people. So explain to them, if, if you don’t want people taking photos during the service, make sure the couple and the photographer know that upfront and make accommodations for it. Explain to them how it works in your setup. But also, I would also challenge you as you’re listening to think, why do we have some of these rules in place and do we need them? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Becca Pountney — Like, are, are they actually rules we need, or have we just built rules upon rules upon rules because they’ve been in, in the, in the church rule book for forever. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s a great question. Like, I think, you know, I think there’s a lot of people who we wouldn’t, we don’t treat our buildings like they’re magical places. Like they’re, they’re a tool that God’s given us to use. Uh, but you know, sometimes these things, they take on an extra weight because it’s a, a religious building. It’s like, you know, I remember when I was in, uh, student ministry when I first started out in, in ministry, I didn’t know that there was a rule that you’re not supposed to have confetti at the church. This is like a thing, you know, weddings, no confetti. And so, um, we did a New Year’s Eve party and I had like a whole bunch of confetti and I knew it was gonna be a mess. I was like, listen, I know this thing’s gonna be a mess. And, uh, so I, and I, so I had planned for it. We’re gonna like get all this stuff cleaned. It’s gonna take a long time, but we’re gonna get cleaned. Rich Birch — But man, I got like, my hand slapped big time, like, man, it was like you did the wrong thing. And you know, it takes on an extra weight. And I was like an employee of the church. I was like the youth pastor. Um, and I felt dumb about that. Like, I was like, oh, I, I can’t believe that. And it takes, it takes on an extra weight. I think we might forget that as church leaders, that when we’re criticizing or explaining a rule like that, there’s something about the fact that it’s a church building, it feels like, oh, that’s, it’s not just like I’m renting some hall where they said no confetti. It feels like, oh, now I’ve done something terrible because I did this in, uh, in the church. And so be conscious of that. And I think it’s okay to have those. Maybe talk us through, if you are, if you’re a church leader and you have a rule like that, like say no confetti, how do we have that conversation in a way and to not come across as a jerk, beyond being beyond saying, don’t be a jerk, but what, what can we do to try to explain that to people? Becca Pountney — Okay. So let’s go with the confetti one, cuz that comes up a lot. So just explain your reasons behind it. So as a church, we don’t really like having confetti because it blows over the neighbors. It’s bad for the environment, whatever your reasons are. But then give them solutions. So say to them, you know, what’s worked well before is we have dried flowers and dried flower confetti’s better for the environment. It’s better for the, you know, when it blows over, it, it looks beautiful in the photos. We are more than happy for you to use that kind of confetti. If you want any recommendations, here’s someone that we’ve known that’s done it before. Oh that’s good. Give people solutions rather than objections. Or say to them, you know, we don’t wanna have confetti outside the front of the church building, however, you know, there’s this great green space just round the back. We’re more than happy for you to do it there. If you want us to show it, it looks great in photos. So just explain to people if there’s a rule, why the rule’s in place. And then try and find something to overcome it with. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. So a anything else on the solution side? I would say kind of on the defensive, like responding to. And then I wanna ask you the proactive questions. So how, what can we do to actually try to, you know, leverage this opportunity? Becca Pountney — So one more thing I wanna talk about when it comes to solutions is thinking about the couple itself. So we’ve talked about professionals, we’ve talked about people coming in to the church as a guest, but what about the couple? Because they’re the people that we’re gonna have the most interaction with, potentially as a church leader. So first of all, if someone approaches you about getting married in the church, try not to in like straight away judge them and think, oh, they just wanna use my building. Think, okay, there must be something that’s made them think they would like to get married in a church. And as I said at the beginning, people still equate church and marriage together. I think a really interesting thing is I have a wedding blog and we talk about everything to do with weddings. It’s not a Christian wedding blog, it is just a wedding blog in the UK. Do you know what my best performing blog post is? Every single month and every single year. Rich Birch — No. Becca Pountney — It is this: the five bible readings for your church wedding. Every month, every year. My best performing blog post on my wedding blog in the UK is five Bible readings for your church wedding. Again, that tells us something. People are interested in Christianity and church when it comes to their wedding date. So if you have a couple approach you, again, see it as an exciting opportunity. Meet with them, get to know them, talk to them, find out about their background, find out about why they’ve decided that your place would be a good place to get married. And then think about how you can work with them and build a relationship with them over time. Becca Pountney — So I’ve known some churches who do great things with the marriage course. So they don’t make it a requirement for someone getting married in their church, but they suggest it. They say, we do this great course, you know, before you get married you can come, you can meet with a, an another couple in our church, you’ll get dinner, you can sit down, you go through this marriage course and it’s a great preparation for your wedding day. And I’ve had friends here in the UK who’ve, who’ve gone through that. They’re not church people, but they’ve got married in a church and they loved it because they had that experience that, you know, as church members, church leaders, we get used to hospitality. We get used to people cooking us meals and serving meals up in the church, but lots of people are not used to that. So if someone says… Rich Birch — No, it’s so true. Becca Pountney — …like, we’re gonna cook you a lovely dinner, we’re gonna help you with your marriage and we’re gonna talk you through this marriage course. Like that’s an exciting opportunity… Rich Birch — It’s a huge deal. Becca Pountney — …and they love, it. So… Rich Birch — Yeah. Becca Pountney — So really think about that. Rich Birch — Friends, if you’re looking for a resource on that. Uh, our friends at Alpha, they do it. They do, it’s called, they actually do two of them. One’s called the marriage course and then the other is they have one actually literally targeted, the pre-marriage course. Uh, the pre-marriage course is only five sessions long. It’s really easy. It’s free for you to do as a church. The videos are amazing. Um, they’ve, it’s a layup. It’s available in like a whole bunch of different languages. Like, it, it really is a layup for you if you’re looking to add that to your game. And again, you know, I know you know this, friends, but you know, this doesn’t mean that you necessarily need to do this. You could get a volunteer in your church to put this together, put together a small team and say, Hey, um, you know, we’re gonna offer this pre-marriage course. Rich Birch — Um, is there, uh, so I love that five Bible readings. I, I, so first of all, that tees up exactly where I was going to next, which is how do we see this as a, as an opportunity, really rather than just being defensive and like, Hey, let’s make sure we get the right PDFs and, and get the cone out and all that. So we do the right stuff. What should we be… because I think there’s a, there’s a real opportunity here for us to reach out to our communities. Give us a sense of if you were to coach a church around how we could leverage this, maybe try to be more attractive to say, Hey, we’re looking for church or weddings to come to our church. What are some of the things we should be thinking about? Becca Pountney — Okay. So in the wedding service itself, if you are giving a message in that service, you need to really think that through, and really pray it through as well. Like this for me is one of the biggest opportunities. So I talked about my own wedding, and one of the things that I thought was, this may be the only gospel message some of these people ever hear. Rich Birch — Yeah. Becca Pountney — And so we actually booked an evangelist for our wedding to come and speak… Rich Birch — Love it. Becca Pountney — …who was a really great speaker. We spoke, we spoke to him about, you know, we want you to give a great message, we want you to give a clear message, but we want you to give a message that is really inclusive for people to hear, isn’t too long, is, is exciting for people to hear and he really like, he really gave a great message. And if you are getting the, the joy, the benefit, the privilege of, of speaking at someone’s wedding that you may not know very well. Like pray it through and really remember the opportunity that you’ve got. So that’s one thing. Definitely think about the message. Um, also, I just wanted to talk as well on, you know, these people coming into your church, remember they might not understand church. So there’s an opportunity with helping them through these Bible readings. Which Bible readings should they have and why, and what do they mean? And talk them through that process. Song choices is huge, right? We go to weddings and they have the same five songs at every wedding that they sang in assembly at school, because they don’t know any other church songs. But actually why don’t we share some songs with them? Becca Pountney — I had a work colleague a few years ago get married and he was getting married in a church. He came to me, he said, Becca, we need some help with song choices. We’re thinking “All Things Bright and Beautiful”. Do you have anything else? And I’m like, please, let’s find something else. I’ve put them together a Spotify playlist of songs like “In Christ Alone” and “Amazing Grace” that they didn’t know. And they were like, wow, these songs are amazing. And they had “In Christ Alone” at their wedding while they signed the register. You know, these tiny little opportunities to just understand and talk people through are huge. Becca Pountney — In terms of attracting people into your, into your church building, understanding that it’s a place where people can get married, like network, find out who the wedding professionals are in your area. Maybe invite them in, like have a little event where you showcase like a hotel would, like what happens that you getting married in our church. Talk to, talk to local vendors. Talk to local people and, and find out what’s going on in your area. Put information out there about getting married in a church. Write a blog post for a wedding blog about the opportunity of getting married in your church. Like do all of the things that you would do in any other area of church life, but with a focus on people getting married. Rich Birch — Yeah. Like I see these wedding shows, so it’s been a while since I’ve been married. I see these like wedding shows. Like they’ll be at like the Holiday Inn on a weekend and they’ll be like, uh, is that the kind of thing like as a church leader, should I be going to that, maybe a chance to, you know, interact with some of the vendors there, even just pick up a bunch of business cards? What if I was trying to get our name out there or should I get a booth at that thing, or tell me about that. Becca Pountney — I love wedding shows because it is an opportunity to be like hands-on in the wedding industry and talk to people. So you shouldn’t a hundred percent go and visit some of your local wedding shows. So just go around, talk to people, make friends, find out what’s going on in the area and talk some about your church. Because exactly as you said earlier, Rich, wouldn’t it be great if your church was the place where everyone’s like, you have to go get married there because it’s so welcoming, so friendly and so forward thinking. Getting a booth, I would love nothing more than to walk into the national wedding show here in the UK and see a church with a booth talking about the marriage course, talking about like giving advice on church weddings, talking to people about how to pick songs, how to pick bible readings, giving them advice and talking to them about it. Becca Pountney — The other thing is, um, working with vendors on things like photo shoots. So one thing that wedding vendors have to do a lot is work together and create photo shoots. And just this last week actually someone in my members group said, does anyone know a church that where we could do a photo shoot? Do you think they would let us question mark? And so again, if you are a place that’s saying, look, hey… Rich Birch — Yeah, come on in. Becca Pountney — …our building empty on a Wednesday lunchtime, if you wanna come in, take some photos, you know, set up a wedding, like, please come on in. Use the building, we’d more than welcome that. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s a great idea. I love that. Even being proactive with those other, you know, cuz there’d be people like florists and stuff like that, that are gonna try to show and they’re looking for a place. And this, you know, this actually reminds me of my own wedding. We, there was like this side room that if you were, if you just kind of walked into the place we got married, you would not know it was there. But it was like this beautiful spot. It’s got this like stained glass and all this really cool, and we got these really cool pictures in there. Uh, but you know, if the person who was hosting us hadn’t kind of gone outta their way and said, Hey, we also have this place over here. I don’t know, the photographer wouldn’t have known, they’d never done a a thing there. I wouldn’t have known, we wouldn’t have known. So even tried to proactively think like, oh, this is a great place, you know, if there’s places around your building, uh, you know, to, to do this. Rich Birch — I also think this is one of those areas where frankly, uh, if you’ve got an older church building, um, you have a real advantage over some of us that do churches in like the big gray box, which is mostly the kind of churches I’ve led in. And so we typically, you know, it’s not like it doesn’t look that nice. It looks more like a, you know, a concert hall than it does, uh, you know, a church. But it’s a real opportunity for you to leverage that and say like, Hey, here’s, here’s a cool spot you could use. It does look traditional. It looks like the wedding in, uh, in, uh, you know, in the movies or whatever. Uh, that is so cool. Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation. Anything else you’d like to, to share? Anything else you want us kind of as we start to wrap up today’s episode? Becca Pountney — I just wanna encourage you, if you’re listening to this, to just really pray through and think about this opportunity. Because it’s easy to dismiss these couples, but every single couple that’s approaching you about getting married has their own story and they’re worth spending some time with. So every time someone messages you about getting married in your church building, try and change your perspective and think, okay, God’s led these people to me. What are we gonna do with this? Rich Birch — Yeah. That is so good, Becca, I really appreciate that. Thank you for your encouragement. Thank you for your, uh, your kind and gentle coaching today, Becca. You’re, you’re helping tons, thousands of church leaders do this better. So I really, really appreciate that. Where do we wanna send people online uh, if they wanna track with you, kind of see, you know, get to know you more, uh, get a sense of what you’re up to? Becca Pountney — So you can go and check out my wedding blog, vicinityweddings.co uk. If you wanna write a blog post about your church building and why people should come get married there, please do. I would more than welcome it. We know that that content does well on the blog. Or go and check me out @beccapountney.com. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it so much. This is good. Now, there might be people that are listening in, uh, who they may know people in the wedding industry. What are the kinds of people that, you know, they’re, there’s a lot of church leaders listening in that, that may, uh, that, that they should be pointing towards you? Like maybe they’ve got photographers or they’ve got people in their church. What, what are the kinds of people that, that kind of track with you? Becca Pountney — Yes, please send people my way. Anyone who’s got a business in wedding floristry, cake making, stationary design, DJs, wedding venues, basically anyone that puts together the wedding day, please feel free to send them my way. And, um, yeah, I’d love to work with them and encourage them to understand why church weddings are not that bad after all. Rich Birch — Love it. Well, thanks so much for being here, Becca. I appreciate your, uh, your leadership and your support. And, friends, uh, thank hopefully today’s been encouraging for you and you’ve given you some ideas to think about, uh, as we go to, as we move forward and try to serve the communities around us. So thanks a lot, Becca. Appreciate you being here today. Becca Pountney — Thanks for having me. 

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Curt Seaburg, the lead pastor of Victory Church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. While it’s important for church leaders to learn from each other, when it comes to vision, it’s critical to know yourself and the God-given calling for your church within its unique community. Listen to this episode where Curt shares wisdom about setting the direction of your church, creating longevity in ministry, and orienting your life around the natural rhythms of your church. Start with vision. // If you don’t know where you’re going as a church, nothing else matters. Figure out what you bring to the church as a leader. Don’t just grab onto the vision of other churches and what they are doing. Rather, learn from other church leaders, but know what will work for you and the community where your church is located. What are you going to do? What are you going to be about? Then, what’s the strategy? A strategy for your community. // It’s very important to know what’s going on in your community. The church that meets the needs of the community will be the church of the community. If you are a multisite church, your strategy can be different at each location so each campus is tailored to the individual community’s needs. Don’t be afraid to take risks and be open to new ideas. Be a long-haul leader. // Curt has had the privilege of leading Victory Church for about 20 years and has been blessed to see it become one of the fastest growing churches in the country. When the church and community see a pastor leading through life’s ups and downs and the challenges that come up in ministry, you gain a lot of respect. Plus leaders with longevity have the opportunity to connect with families in the church on a deeper level, walking with them through the seasons of life. Pastor your family too. // Part of the blessing of being at Victory for as long as he has includes Curt seeing his children love the local church. As you pastor in your church and minister to the people around you, remember to also pastor your family. When your kids are young, let them know that they too are in ministry. Curt and his wife have tried to communicate to their children that being a pastor at a church isn’t just about “going to work” but ministry is about loving people. That mindset has helped them leave a legacy and made all the difference when ministry has demanding seasons. Take sabbaticals to rest. // When church leaders have been in ministry a long time, they can get weighed down and lose momentum. God gave Curt a picture of this, comparing it to a boat loaded down with barnacles. So Curt worked with his team to create a policy for taking a sabbatical. Victory Church offers a 90-day sabbatical every seven years, and their team of pastors are now on a rotation for those sabbaticals. Offering sabbaticals is Victory’s way of taking care of their team and allowing them to rest and take care of themselves and their families. Let the church know why sabbaticals are important. // When implementing sabbaticals, Curt brought it before the church and talked with the congregation about its importance and why it would be good for the pastors and the church. He encouraged the congregation to keep attending, giving and being involved in the church while a pastor they enjoyed wasn’t there during a sabbatical. Dial back the workload. // When Curt took his first sabbatical, it led to him implementing a day of rest consistently into his weekly schedule. During a sabbatical it’s easier to see what parts of the church you don’t need to be so deeply involved in. That will allow you to dial back your workload moving forward, and give you time to make space for seeking clarity and direction. Lastly, rather than trying to find balance in ministry, seek to orient your life around the rhythms of the church. When things slow down over the summer, ride that wave until things begin to pick up again in the fall. You can learn more about Victory Church at www.victorychurch.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey everybody, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, every week we bring you a leader who we know will both inspire and equip you. And I’m super excited for today’s conversation, Curt Seaburg. He is the lead pastor at a church called Victory Church, which was founded in 2000 by this incredible couple, Glenn and Linda. And they named the church Victory because they wanted people to experience victory in their lives through relationship with Jesus. Well Pastor Curt came to the church in 2004 was that began as the lead pastor in 2006. And and since then they’ve really been on a tear. Man, lots of good things have happened. They’ve launched new campuses. They’ve been expanding. And they really, you know, continue to have a real drive around mission and vision. And they’ve expanded a bunch of locations all around Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. And they’re one of the fastest growing churches in the country. So I’m just so honored that you’re on the show today, Curt. Welcome – we’re so glad you’re here. Curt Seaburg — Thank you. What an honor to be with you today, Rich. Man, I’m pumped. Rich Birch — Yeah. This is so good. I, you know, there’s all kinds of jokes you can make about Lancaster, and I’m not going to make them, you know, I’m just going to let it just lay there. You know, you’ve got a computer, you don’t drive a buggy. You know all of those things. Well, just leave all those jokes there. Curt Seaburg — That’s right. They’re all around us. But yeah, we’re good. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about Victory? Kind of fill in the picture there. What did I miss? Curt Seaburg — Yeah. So Victory, like you said, it started in 2000. And started out just in just in Glenn and Linda’s home, and just kind of grew quietly and slowly. But they brought on on the first lead pastor was about two… I think it was 2002 they brought him on. And he was a good friend of ours. And so he had reached out to us a lot. We were on staff together at one point. And we were youth pastors because we’ve been youth pastors for 17 years up to this point. Rich Birch — Love it. Curt Seaburg — We were full time youth pastors just living the dream. And we were living down in Lakeland, Florida at the time in a great church with Wayne Blackburn of Victory Church. And we just he just kept after us and after us to come on up and help him get this work going and things like that. And so in 2003, we said, Yeah, let’s do this. Rich Birch — Love it. Curt Seaburg — And so we moved up there in 2004 and came alongside. We were there for about a little over a year and a half. And then he had stepped away and they asked us to step in and take the lead of the church. And it’s just been it’s been amazing ever since then. Rich Birch — So cool. That must be a work of God that you moved from Lakeland, Florida, to Pennsylvania. You know, they typically the trend is going the opposite direction. People are moving, you know, from Pennsylvania to Florida. Curt Seaburg — Yeah, exactly. Hey, but the reality is, man, you know, my wife and I are both from the northeast and we just missed the seasons. You know, I mean, when you’re Florida… Rich Birch — Yeah, yes, yeah. Curt Seaburg — It is always it’s either hot or hotter all the time. Rich Birch — Yes. Curt Seaburg — And so, yeah, we missed this. We did miss the snow, miss the fall time and things like that. Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Curt Seaburg — Yeah, it’s gorgeous around here. So that was it. Rich Birch — Yeah. It’s a beautiful, yeah, beautiful. We were talking about this before we went on air. It really is a beautiful part of… it’s one of those parts of the country where I’m like, this might be what heaven’s like. Curt Seaburg — That’s right. Rich Birch — It’s quite nice. It’s beautiful. Curt Seaburg — It’s the garden spot of Pennsylvania. Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it. All right, so, you know, you’ve led for for a long time. You know, been been in the driver’s seat since 2006, and there’s clearly been changes, growth. You know, you’ve added multi-site, you’ve done a bunch of those different things. Curt Seaburg — Right. Rich Birch — I wonder if we could take a step back, help me understand kind of how do you think about setting direction and setting strategy? What is what does that look like for you? How is that kind of evolved over the years? Curt Seaburg — Well, that is like that’s critical. That really is mission critical. If you don’t know where you’re going, you know, there’s everything else. Nothing else matters at that point. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Curt Seaburg — You got to have a direction. And so for us, it really took us some time to really figure out, okay, what Lord, what do you have for us? Because it’s not only for us as a church, but you also have to take into account what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses as a leader as well, because that’s going to play into it as also. Curt Seaburg — You have there are some folks that you’ll just grab what somebody else is doing. You try to copy paste that and it might work for a little while, but after you go for a couple of years and it doesn’t work, and the reason why it doesn’t work is because it’s not you, you know? And so it’s great to learn from other people. And I am always learning. I got a best buddy of mine, Blaine, Blaine Martel, he’ll say, If I got eyes, I played your eyes. You know what I’m saying? But he’s just like, there’s always things to learn from other people. And so you always have to kind of keep your eye on the horizon, what’s going on. But you have to be true to who you are as well, and really leave those things for the Lord. And so vision very, very important. What are you going to do? What are you going to be about? And then what’s the strategy? How do you go about that point of the vision? Curt Seaburg — And so for us, some of these things like took a little while for them to really develop, even though we we got what we thought was a really clear scripture verse in March of 2006 and Isaiah 54 about enlarge the place of your your meeting. And did not understand what all that meant. And so there was a continual I think we were probably into that for maybe maybe 2 or 3 years to really try to figure out, Lord, what do you have for us that’s going to be very unique for us? And we didn’t want to be unique just for the sake of, Hey, look at us, be unique. But we just wanted to be true to who we were. And so that’s what once we had that clear vision and that clear mission, man, it was just it was gangbusters after that. At that point, it was then figuring out the strategy, how do we come about and accomplish that vision and mission? Rich Birch — I love that. Well, I think that I love this. I think you’re hitting on something that I think we often don’t think about, or maybe we miss a nuance there. It’s really this connection between, you know, ourselves and what God’s calling our church to be. It’s like you look around and you’re trying to assess what is the needs in our community. Curt Seaburg — Right. Rich Birch — You kind of where do we believe God is moving? But then that has to fit in context of, Hey, he’s also called you to lead. So when you say it took a while, help us understand that a little bit. Was that you was that you trying to self explore, understand yourself a bit more, or understand, you know, the mission a bit more? Maybe help us kind of pull that apart. Curt Seaburg — Oh man. Rich Birch — I’m intrigued by this, this idea of the connection between you as a as a leader and the mission or the vision. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. What a what a great question that is. Because, you know, for me, it was, like I said, you know, we were youth pastors, you know? And so there was a thing that we did and there was a way that we did youth ministry, and it was and the Lord was really blessing it. To step into what it was like to be a lead pastor. And it was it was a small work at the time. There was only a couple hundred of us at that time trying to figure all that out. Curt Seaburg — So you’re exactly right, Rich. I mean, it took a while for me to figure out me, but it took a while for me to figure out our church as well. And not only the church, but the scripture verse in Isaiah 54 that talks about enlarging your house and building an addition. We know that for us, that really was our multi-site, that had to do with multi-site, which would come a couple of years later. And so all of those things interplay is really what took it for… Rich Birch — Love it. Curt Seaburg — …as long as it did really to help to develop that. And you wanting to bring the people along with you at the same time. We wanted them to own it as well. And so there’s a lot of, when I say they, it was more of a leadership team to own the direction that we were going in the buy-in as well… Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah. Curt Seaburg — …because it was different than really a lot of things that anybody else was doing. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So a part of this process is obviously knowing your community, knowing where you’re kind of the both your church community and the church are trying to serve… Curt Seaburg — Right Rich Birch — …or the community you’re trying to serve. Talk to us about how do we do that? How do we how do we try to get to know, how do we how do we learn about them? How do we what is that or what’s that what has that look like for you over the years? Because obviously your community has shifted and changed even since 2006. Right? Curt Seaburg — Oh big time. Rich Birch — Things have changed in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania. What does that look like for you? Curt Seaburg — In some ways, it’s changed. In a lot of ways it’s still very much the same. In our area, we are in Lancaster County, Lancaster County is a unique kind of a place. Because if you’re living in the county, the communities are very much all about the communities. So if you’re from Lititz, you’re from Lititz. Rich Birch — Okay. Curt Seaburg — If you’re from Manheim, you’re from Manheim, you know? You can only be a couple of miles apart, but you are in those communities. If you are in Ephrata, you live in Ephrata. But if you see some people, like in Florida, and they’re from Pennsylvania and they’re from one of those communities that I just listed, it would be like, Hey, I’m from Lancaster County, you’re from Lancaster County too? Curt Seaburg — And so like, we own the county when we’re away, but when we’re in the county… Rich Birch — That’s a good nuance. Curt Seaburg — …it really is very nuanced, but it’s really played to our advantage. Because our sites that we have—there’s six of them that we have right now—they’re all in these communities. And they’re they’re not that far apart where I have, you know, I got a lot of friends, you know, their sites are maybe 30 miles apart or 40 miles apart. You know, our sites are like eight miles apart, ten miles apart. But they are incredibly distinct, meeting the needs of the people in that community in and of itself. And so it has really played to our advantage to be able to focus just on the communities that are close by. Rich Birch — Okay. I’m going to push you on this a little bit, because I know you’re a smart leader and you’ve thought about this. So one of the things that in from a multi-site point of view I’ve always kind of struggled with is this balance of kind of we have a unified vision. We have one thing we’re pushing towards, and we have like a unified culture. Like there is by definition, you know, you go to a Victory Church in Ephrata or in Manheim, like there’s obviously some common things. That’s why you’re multi-site as opposed to just church planting. Curt Seaburg — Right. Rich Birch — And balancing what you’re saying, which is, okay, we’ve got local realities that we want to kind of nuance to. It should, it should feel like it’s in Manheim when it’s in Manheim or wherever we are. Curt Seaburg — Right. Rich Birch — How do you balance those two out? How do we make sure, because in some ways they feel like they’re maybe at odds, like the kind of common approach, you know, Victory Church is Victory Church. And then, oh, we’re also trying to figure out how to be very much in our communities. What’s that look like? Curt Seaburg — Yeah, the in our community. That’s a great question. You’re smart, Rich. There’s it’s very, very important that you know what’s going on in your community. Right. Curt Seaburg — So that you can meet the needs of the community. The church that meets the needs of the community will be the church of the community. Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. Curt Seaburg — That’s that is a big, big deal for us. The way that we do outreach, the way that we do groups, how we’re meeting the needs of, the individual needs in that community is very intentional in the way that we go about things. But when you pull back, people still want to be a part of something that is big and growing and overall it’s healthy and successful. And so that’s where our vision and our mission sits and our strategy sits. So everything else underneath that is very distinct to that area. The groups, now we do all we all do the group same way, you know, but it’s very distinct to that community that we’re in. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah. Can you give me some examples of what that how, you know, some of those distinctives how that would kind of work itself out? I get the idea, like the overall strategy point of view is common, but then how, how do you allow some or have some nuance, not really allow, but have some nuance, you know, at a local level? Curt Seaburg — Yeah, it’s the way that we’re meeting needs in that area. Rich Birch — Okay, okay. Curt Seaburg — So it would be like one of our locations is, is in Colombia. Colombia has typically been the poorest community in all of Lincoln County. So there’s things that we’re doing in Columbia, maybe that some other churches have started and we’ve come alongside and been a part of it. You know, Hands Across the Street. We’ll do things in helping to meet the needs there that we won’t do in a more affluent area, and something like a like a Lititz. So if we’re in Lititz, we’re really focusing in on on finding out, okay, when they gather together and when we have celebrations, or whenever we have parades or stuff going on, there’s this big park. So we’re engaged there, making sure that people are seeing us, that they know that there is a church in the community. We’re also very involved there in the school system, which because that’s a big deal for that community… Rich Birch — Right. Curt Seaburg — …the people in that community are very involved in the schools. And so that’s so that’s a little bit different. So they’ll push that at our Lititz campus where our Columbia campus, they’ll do more of feeding, taking care of of of actual physical needs that people have. So those those locations actually take on the feel of that community. Rich Birch — I love it. So one of the things for a leader like yourself that has been serving, you know, for more than five years, let’s say. So there’s some there’s some line in the sand where we have to keep reinventing ourselves. We have to keep growing. We have to keep you know, if we get stuck in stagnant, then like shocker, the church we lead or the organizations we lead will become stuck and stagnant. And I, no doubt you’ve led over all these years, you know, going on almost 20 years in the same church. You know, there’s lots of people that that haven’t been able to continue to do that. How do you do that? How do you keep growing? How do you keep learning as a leader, about these things are just in general, what’s that look like? Curt Seaburg — Yeah. You know, we’re not afraid to take risks. And I think some of that is the youth pastor in you, too. Rich Birch — Yes. Curt Seaburg — You know, you’re always looking to do the next awesome thing. You know, what’s something that’s really going to be that’s going to be impactful for people. And so we’re not afraid to do things. So one of the big things that we do is we had never done it before, but we did a biker blessing. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool. Curt Seaburg — Yeah, that’s a couple of years ago. And so, I mean, that thing just like took off. And we were so pumped, so excited about that. And then we’re like, well, what are some other things that we can do? And so our kids pastor at the time, he’s like, What if we did just like this huge splash day, invited all of our communities to do this huge water slide. And there were thousands of people that were showing up for that on a Saturday afternoon or Sunday afternoon. And so always looking, listening to the people who are around, some of the ideas that they’ve got, some of the things that you’re hearing about going around in the nation, you know that things are doing, the people are doing. I think it’s not getting so just tunnel visioned into your own thing, but always being open to to new ideas and relationships, conversations, to kind of keep things fresh. There is something absolutely beautiful about being in the place, though, for as long as we have. Rich Birch — Yeah. Curt Seaburg — You know, there’s there’s a lot of beauty in the long haul, you know? Rich Birch — Well, yeah, yeah. That’s one of I was I’d love you to talk more about that, because one of the things we see, we’ve done a lot of work on studying growing churches, fast growing churches. And one of the common traits you see is they are pastors, like yourself, that have been there for a decade plus there. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — And that’s one of those answers that people don’t like. It’s like, how do you have a growing church? Well, first, spend ten years there. Next, you know, and talk to us about that. What do you think some of the advantages of being a long haul leader, you know, in a location, you know, what are some of the advantages? What does that look like? Curt Seaburg — Oh, you get, the respect that you really do gain… Rich Birch — Right. Curt Seaburg — …from the people that you’re leading because they’re seeing you through all the ups and downs. And a lot of people are here for a couple of years. You know what that’s like. And we’ll spend three years in one place. They come to a difficult situation, they’ll move and spend three years in another place. And they say they got six years of ministry experience. No, they don’t. They got three years in two places is what they got. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yes. Curt Seaburg — You know, and so I think being around people that see you going through the ebbs and flows and the ups and the downs, weathering the different storms and being a part of of of dedicating the child to Lord, and then you’re marrying that child off later on. Rich Birch — Wow, wow. Yes. Curt Seaburg — You know there is… Rich Birch — A privilege. Curt Seaburg — Oh, it is. There’s such a connection, you know, that really happens there as well, because they know at the end of the day, because they’re living life, you know, 24/7. But at the end of the day, if they’re going through difficulties, they know that there’s some stability and they look to their pastor for that stability. And that’s been earned over time to be able to have that. And so, yeah, I think it’s one of the joys that my wife and I have had is to be able to be here as long as we have. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. What a great that’s a great word for people. You know, as we’re thinking about, you know, how do we how do we lead? You know, a part of this is, hey, we should be hunkering down. And so we’re going to be here for a while. And so and I know that there’s so many friends of mine who have led in real, thriving churches that they’re like, they’re not going anywhere. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — It’s like it’s, you know, we just keep plugging away. That’s that’s so good. You kind of relate… Curt Seaburg — [inaudible] to Rich. I’m sorry. Our kids are really involved also. And so we’ve got four of them. They’re adults. They’re all married right now. We’re not saying they’re married, period. But we got most of them have kids right now. Rich Birch — Yes. Curt Seaburg — We’ve got our daughter and her husband, or hopefully now we’re believing God for that. But we got grandkids. And so they’re all a part, too. Rich Birch — Wow. Curt Seaburg — And they’re really anchored into their faith, or anchored after all these years., they still love their mom and dad, you know, who have been in their entire life. They love the local church. And that speaks a lot [inaudible]. Rich Birch — That’s huge. Curt Seaburg — Well, and so not only pastoring your church and loving and caring and leading, but making sure, number one, that you’re pastoring your family… Rich Birch — Yeah. Curt Seaburg — …and you’re loving and you’re caring and you’re doing that with your wife. And so that has helped us too, I think, in the longevity is because we want to leave a legacy, not only for us, but now our kids and our grandkids to be able to follow after. Rich Birch — Yeah, we weren’t planning on talking about this, but you went there, so I’d love to hear more. So my my own kids, we’re like, we’re one or two phases before your kids. So my daughter just graduated from university. My son’s in university, in college. And they both love the Lord, they love the church. And like I always say, by God’s grace, like it’s amazing, you know. Curt Seaburg — Yup. Rich Birch — You know, but what would your coaching, what would your advice—we’ve got a lot of young pastors that are listening in—what would, you know—and unfortunately, the stereotype is there’s a lot of kids that end up our age who have been kind of the pastor’s kid thing. What would be your coaching and advice, you know, to parents as who happen to also work in a church? Curt Seaburg — Yeah. You know I think a couple of things that, looking back, that we did, and I’m really thankful for we stumbled on, is our kids, we always told our kids, you know, you’re you’re in ministry until you’re 18. You know, God chose for you to be born to this mom… Rich Birch — To this family. Curt Seaburg — …to this dad. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Curt Seaburg — And and you and we’re in ministry. We’re called the ministry. And so that means you are to. When you’re 18, you can make your own decision. But until then, we’re going to church, you know, and you’re going to be at youth group. And so and we made that we didn’t make that rule when they were 14 or 15. You know, when you’re going to have to struggle, it’s going to be a struggle at that point. We led them there early on. Curt Seaburg — And I think another beautiful thing, too, is that, you know, you put a lot of hours in when you’re a pastor. And there were oftentimes, you know, where the kids would cry and say, oh, daddy, can’t you just stay home? And things like that. We would always tell our kids, my wife was really, really good with this. And Pam would say, Well, Daddy’s going to love people. He’ll be back in a little while. It wasn’t, Daddy has to go to work. Daddy has to go to church. You know, Daddy’s going to love on people. And when he’s done loving on people, then he’ll be back. That was a constant that we said to our kids early on. And I think that really helped our kids to love people as well. Rich Birch — Right. Curt Seaburg — And to realize the church wasn’t taking dad away, the church and the people there he’s going to love on those those folks. And that’s a good thing. And so those are just, you know, a couple, oh, boy, we could talk about, we could have a whole podcast and [inaudible] my wife on it… Rich Birch — That’s a whole conversation. Yeah, yeah. Curt Seaburg — And and she could write off all kinds of things that we had done. And we didn’t do everything right, obviously. Rich Birch — No, no. Curt Seaburg — But those were some things that we did early on that really did help to set up our family to be able to succeed. Rich Birch — Okay. Kind of in a related area, did you ever do a sabbatical ever during that… Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, that 20 years, or is it coming up? I feel like there’s a lot of guys who are like, it’s coming up, year 42… Curt Seaburg — Oh my goodness. Rich Birch — …but what does that look like? Curt Seaburg — Yeah, we actually did. So our first sabbatical, and the only sabbatical we ever took, was in 2017. Rich Birch — Okay. Curt Seaburg — So we had been in the ministry, at that point we were it was 30 years that we and we had never taken a sabbatical or anything like that. And so I had talked to our our leadership team at that point and just said, Hey, I know that we’ve never done anything like this, but I’d really like for you guys to consider me going on a sabbatical. Rich Birch — That’s good. Curt Seaburg — And so I wrote a whole sabbatical policy and gave it to them. And I’ll tell you, the thing that really just spurred me on toward this was this word picture that the Lord had given to me. And it was this picture of a boat that was gliding across the water in this endless ocean. And sometimes the waters were calm and sometimes the waters were rough. But the boat just continued just to keep moving, and keep motoring along. Along with the driver of the boat was enjoying the ride, loving the view, enjoyed the passengers that were in the boat, and they all loved to be together and they loved the scenery. Most often the throttle was wide open, but sometimes the boat actually would stop along the lake and rest for a bit. But then to be back up to speed again. Curt Seaburg — And this boat had been traveling on this endless ocean for years. And unknown to the driver, the boat had slowed down a little bit. And this is the whole picture that the Lord was given to me. The driver doesn’t even notice it because he’s still making great progress. He’s still loving the view. He’s still loving the people that he’s with. He takes care of the engine, continues to to work hard, but the throttle is wide open. Yet the boat seems to be bogging down a little bit. And when the driver finally takes the boat to the Marina, they pull the boat, they dry dock the boat, and immediately they notice what the problem is. They notice that though everything looked great from the waterline up, below the waterline, all these barnacles had attached themselves… Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s powerful. Curt Seaburg — …to the boat, slowing it down from what it was intended to be used for. And so the Lord told me at that point that, and it’s just as clear as day, Rich, was just pastors collect expectations like boats collect barnacles. Rich Birch — Oh wow. Curt Seaburg — And you never know until you pull yourself out of the water. Rich Birch — Wow. Curt Seaburg — And when I shared that with our lead team, I mean, there was like, you mean everybody in the room is just, like, crying? Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Curt Seaburg — I mean, it was a powerful moment. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure. Curt Seaburg — So we instituted a sabbatical policy at that point. And so every seven years, yep, our team goes away. And I can remember the first, I sat down with a buddy of mine at LCBC, Pastor Dave Ashcraft used to be the lead pastor out there. And and I share with him my whole what I’m going to be doing over these next 90 days of my sabbatical. And he’s looking at everything I’m going to accomplish. And he’s like, Curt, I think you’re missing the point of a sabbatical. Rich Birch — [laughs] Curt Seaburg — And he really, and he really helped coach… Rich Birch — Crank it up. Curt Seaburg — …you need to rest is what you need to do. And so, yeah, so we put all that stuff together and our team now is on a rotation to where we have different pastors that are going at different times now to make sure that they get a sabbatical. And it’s all tiered, you know, to where you sit on the leadership team, or the strategic team or whatever. But we really want to take care of our team by giving them sabbaticals. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a great word. I love there the encouragement. And maybe you could speak a little bit more to this. Like one of the difficulties of being the first pastor that’s been there for ten years… Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, at a church like yours, is like you are probably going to have to, which is what you did, have to raise your hand and say, hey, this is an issue that I think we need to talk about. And you did the, what an amazing gift you’ve given to generations that have come after you at Victory. But talk to us about maybe there’s a leader who hears that and is like, oh, man, that’s totally me. But I, I, you know, pastors are by definition, like they’re caring for other people. They’ve oriented their lives around other people, and that might feel really selfish. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — So help them, help us understand how do you flag that? How do you even kind of open that conversation up? Curt Seaburg — Man, I am German Swiss. And so all of those feelings were coming out big time. Rich Birch — Sure. Curt Seaburg — You know, I’m in Pennsylvania Dutch country, for Pete’s sake. Rich Birch — Yes. That’s hilarious. Curt Seaburg — I’m not worried these guys are working 80 hours a week… Rich Birch — Yes. Curt Seaburg — …[inaudible] horrible. So what I did is I took a risk and I talked about it on a Sunday morning. Rich Birch — Oh interesting. Curt Seaburg — And I shared with our church where things were at as far as just just workloads and what that’s like, and why this is not this extended vacation or anything like that, and why I think I’m so deserving of all this time. But the importance of it and and the benefits that it’s going to bring to our church afterwards. And I had asked them during that time, I said, you know, as we’re getting ready to go, I’m encouraging not to don’t stop attending. We need you to be here and each to support; don’t stop giving. Curt Seaburg — And so there were things I was asking them to do as well during that time. And when it came back, the first Sunday back, actually, Pam and I sat down and we just gave a whole report of things that we learned and things that we were walking through. And it was absolutely beautiful and it was seamless. Most of that, it wasn’t self-imposed in my own head. Like people are going to feel this way, but they’re really not. Oh yeah, they’re really going to feel that way. You know that why are you taking this extended vacation? Rich Birch — Sure. Curt Seaburg — So I think that’s why it’s important that you get out in front of it. Rich Birch — Right. Curt Seaburg — And you share… Rich Birch — Call it out. Curt Seaburg — Yeah, you got to call it out because that’s what a leader does. The leader gets out front. Curt Seaburg — And so, yeah, that was a real, looking back now, that was such a smart thing. And now when our team comes up for sabbatical, yeah, our church knows what we do for health. Rich Birch — It just becomes a part of it. Curt Seaburg — Health and longevity. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. I think, and yeah, I totally get that’s a fun, you know, the Pennsylvania Dutch work ethic, you know, if you can do it there in that in that culture, man, lots of places in the country that would be fine. And I think, to be honest, I think most pastors underestimate, whoever they’re like, whatever they’re like the people they report to their board, their overseers, whatever that looks like… Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — …they underestimate how much those people care for them… Curt Seaburg — Yes, yes. Rich Birch — …and you know that they understand like, hey, okay, that makes sense. Like, and it is like a there’s a Johari window there you have to open for them to be like, Hey, this is something that, you know, would love for us to think about. And I love that. What a great – that’s a great coaching. Curt Seaburg — That is that is so true. And I didn’t realize too, how much I needed it. Rich Birch — Right. Curt Seaburg — It took me, no lie, I was going back and look over my notes. It took me five weeks… Rich Birch — Sure, wow. Yeah. Curt Seaburg — …until I finally was able to feel like, okay, now I’m relaxed, now at this point. So you need it more than you think you do. Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. I have a good friend of mine is on sabbatical right now and he, I was cheering for him. I was texting him. Hey, man, good, good, like, I’m so glad. And he he’s a he’s a really hard worker and his, you know, his ethnic background is Korean and, like, very similar. And it was his reflection. He was like, it feels very odd to be taking it. But he said, you know, Rich, I’ve and so he’s 50. He’s like, I have never taken more than one week off… Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — …one consecutive week, even between roles, has never done that for his entire career. And I think, even now I think coming post-COVID like we are post post-COVID now, friends… Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — …there are people who are tired, and there’s they got a lot of barnacles on their boat that they need to knock off, get knocked off in the in the dry dock. I just love that. That’s good. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — How is that how did that impact your rhythm kind of beyond that? So you came back to that. Did anything change on how you structured your life and all that? Curt Seaburg — Yes. Sat down with my executive assistant. I said, okay, let’s talk about my calendar. And she’s like, I already have a bunch of ideas for you. So we sat down and we really begin to map out, okay, what does the ideal week now look like for me in this new seat that I’m in. We worked really hard to try to set things up to where it ran really well, even while we weren’t there. And it did. But so there were a lot of things that I recognized during that time. A lot of weeds I didn’t have to dive down into that I could actually stay up out of. And so I wouldn’t have known that had we not taken the sabbatical and realized, Hey, all I need to do is just just need to be touch points. I don’t need to be in these things. That helped a lot in my calendaring and it really helped me to, to, to dial into the fact that I’m going to take a full day off. And so Friday is my full day off. And we would be sporadic about that, you know, to be very honest with you. For years, you kind of do what you had to do. Sometimes you’d have to, you know, work on that day or with… Rich Birch — [inaudible] yourself, it’s not work. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah, so we take, ever since then, there’s been a true sabbatical… Rich Birch — That’s good. Curt Seaburg — …I cannot think of very many weeks when we would have missed a true Friday off together that we took. And so, yeah, that’s really, for my health and for, um, just direction, for clarity in my mind. I mean, I’m in great health, but just for clarity in my mind, it has really helped to be able to do that, to see things differently. And to project what do I want this next half of my life to look like? Rich Birch — So like that that connects that kind of is full circle back to, you know, clarity around direction and vision and all that and our we’re a part of that. How God’s called he hasn’t called just, you’re not a random widget that he’s called to lead this church. You’re an individual person. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — And so a part of that is you’ve got to process all this stuff and work through it and and ask the Lord and and you know that a lot of that happens when in the in the slowdown, the silence, the when things aren’t quite so go go go all the time. Curt Seaburg — Yep. Rich Birch — So just love that; that’s that’s so good. What a great this has been a great conversation. Anything else you want to share just as we wrap up today’s conversation? Curt Seaburg — You know, I think one thing that that we’ve learned, too, along the way that has really helped us a whole lot is just understanding how to do this whole balance thing. You know, we’ve heard we’ve had so many we have so many conversations with a lot of people, a lot of pastors, just about life balance. And what does it look like to balance your marriage, and ministry, and family, and your ministry, and and just all the ebbs and flows. For years, I would would just I would fight to try to find balance you know, in everything. Curt Seaburg — And one thing that I had learned learned from a guy by the name of Bruce Miller, he wrote a great book. And and we were together at a pastors’ network probably about 8 years ago, 7 or 8 years ago. And he talked about rhythms, and the importance of not trying to find balance in things, but to ride the rhythms of your church. Know know what your church, the rhythms of your church and ride that. When you got to work hard, work hard. When your church is not in a busy time, don’t try to make it busy. Rich Birch — That’s good. Curt Seaburg — Take that. Hang around down there, because it’s going to get busy again. There are natural rhythms. And so we have even our church, we diagnose this. And so the first five months of the year, they are like high, fast speed for us. The next three months are the lowest. Rich Birch — That’s good. Curt Seaburg — Four months after that, it’s kind of like it’s right in the middle, you know? Rich Birch — Yes. Curt Seaburg — So the first five are high. Next three are the low, and then the next four are in the middle. And so we have kind of oriented our life around that rhythm and around that… Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Curt Seaburg — …flow of our church rather than just trying to fight it all the time. Because you’re trying to fight culture as well. And so it’s smart just to just ride those rhythms. Don’t try to find balance and all that stuff. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I think that’s one of the things that we’ve lost as kind of our entire well, and maybe not so much in your part of the country, but as the general culture has shifted away from being anything agrarian that has this idea of there are seasons when you plant, there are seasons when you water, and then there are even seasons when you harvest. Curt Seaburg — Yeah. Rich Birch — And those all have different work paces to them, right? They’re all it’s not the same all the time. Curt Seaburg — Exactly. Rich Birch — And so, you know, we’ve kind of slipped into this like just keep working all the time rhythm, which is not really a rhythm at all. That’s interesting. Curt Seaburg — Yeach, you’re exactly right. Because when you talk about that kind of terminology and you give those kind of illustrations in this agrarian culture that I live in, yeah, they dial into that really quick. So I guess I’m at a little bit of an advantage, maybe in some of that stuff… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Curt Seaburg — …but hopefully our listeners can listen to this and they can they can dial in, and take some of that stuff away. You know, how can I, how can I use that in my church and in my life as well? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. This has been a great conversation, Curt. I really appreciate your time today and thanks so much for leaning in and helping us. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Curt Seaburg — Yeah, so we got everything right at our church – just victorychurch.org. Rich Birch — Love it. Curt Seaburg — So everything’s there. I’m horrible on on Twitter. Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it. Curt Seaburg — You know, I’m I’m really not on social media. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fine. Curt Seaburg — You know, a whole lot, it’s funny some of our, you know, some church people like, man, is everything okay? You didn’t respond back to me. You know, I sent you a message on Facebook three months ago. I’m like, I’m not even on Facebook. I don’t even think about it anymore or anything like that. Rich Birch — Yes. Love it. Curt Seaburg — But uh, just going really everything’s right at that at the church. Rich Birch — Love it. That’s great. Curt Seaburg — Yeah, so that’s the best place to do it. Rich Birch — Well, thanks so much for being here today. I really appreciate you. Really appreciate you being on the episode. Thank you. Curt Seaburg — I’m so grateful for you, Rich. Thanks for everything you do for the community of faith at large. And so you’re blessing for sure. Rich Birch — Well, thanks, brother. Take care, man.

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Collin Jones, the chief ambassador at Resi, part of the organization Pushpay. Pushpay provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app to the faith sector while Resi helps deliver reliable livestream solutions to churches. Online services and live streaming have been on the rise for years, but the pandemic has accelerated the shift towards church online and hybrid models. Listen in as Collin discusses the reasons why churches are choosing to stay hybrid, plus other changes to church technology over the last year. Hybrid is here to stay. // Before COVID, many churches were resistant to live streaming, but that changed when the pandemic hit. Even now when people have returned to church, there are still many people watching services online. According to the latest State of the Church Technology report, 89% of churches employ a fully hybrid model, with both in-person and online options available. While most churches accept that this is the reality, they probably don’t have a lot of energy to think about how to grow it. Online is the front door. // Collin describes three different doors for people coming into the church. Church online is the new front door to your church. Very few people will pass by your church and simply stop by on a Sunday to check it out. Even prior to COVID, the average person would come to online church about 11 times before ever visiting in person. Keep the side door open wide. // The side door refers to the people who are already in the congregation but are busy. They may be donors or volunteers or community leaders and many times they don’t make it to church on weekends due to conflicts in their schedule. By providing an avenue for them to watch services online, these people can still be invested in the church’s mission and have transformed hearts and lives. Reach out through the third door. // The third door is digital because everyone a church wants to reach is online. The digital door is part of a funnel that might begin with social media shares or online ads for your church and directs people to your site to watch a livestream. People coming to your website to meet a felt need will hopefully take a next step to engage and come to the church in person. A shift in livestreaming. // According to data from 2022, about 89% of churches livestream on social media. But when asked what channels they are planning to stream on in the future, only 47%, were planning to use social media in the next year. In the report, many churches are shifting to streaming on their own app or platform. Moving away from places like YouTube or FaceBook allows churches to have more control over helping people take next steps. In addition, it gives them access to important data and allows them to offer content without ads. Do what works for you. // Overall, Collin emphasized the importance of churches finding the right technology solutions for their specific needs and goals, rather than simply following the trends of large outlier churches. When it comes to winning online, or on any channel that constantly changes, he emphasized three things. First, measure what matters and make sure everyone is clear about what’s being measured. Second, experiment within the boundaries that you’ve set. And third, do more of what’s working and less of what isn’t working. You can take look at the study results of the State of the Church Tech report by clicking here. Visit www.resi.io and www.pushpay.com to learn more about what the organizations offer. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey everybody, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. You know, every week we try to bring you somebody who will, who really, you know, inspire, equip you. And today, man, is gonna be one of those times. Super, super excited to have Collin Jones with us. He’s with an organization called Pushpay. If you don’t know who they are, man, where have you been? Uh, Collin, uh, was with, originally with an organization called Resi, and right from the year it founded, and they really have led this incredible transformation of helping churches deliver reliable livestream solutions to churches and organizations all over the globe. But then since 2021, uh, after Resi was acquired by Pushpay, he has been with them, uh, really helping, and if you don’t know Pushpay, they include, they have a bunch of donor tools, financial tools, and let really a lot of different things to help your church move forward. Uh, today we want to get a chance to talk about Pushpay’s state of check Church Tech, uh, report that came out earlier this year. In his role, he’s the chief ambassador, which sounds incredibly I, you know, important. It’s amazing. And so, uh, looking forward to, uh, to, to talking with you again, Collin. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Collin Jones — Yeah, thank you, Rich. And fun to get to talk to you again. Rich Birch — Yeah, why don’t you, you kind of round out the picture there. What did I miss? Uh, give us the, the Collin story. What did I miss about Pushpay or about Resi that you wanna make sure we, we know about? Collin Jones — No, I think that’s great. Yeah, we started, uh, Resi kind of got to a size where it was hard to keep going on our own without a lot of the tool sets around it. So, the reason why Pushpay made a lot of sense is because of all the other tools that they have. So, like the app and donor management and church management systems, and a lot of the data that comes around that. And so the, the main vision of why we came together is so that, um, churches could know and grow their audience and, uh, and their, you know, congregation. Collin Jones — And so I think like the, you know, we’re, we’re getting to work on a lot of cool things, like we’re, we’re working on a lot of media stuff together. So they’re the media and Resi and all of that. And the app is a lot easier. Um, that was one thing from the state of the church tech that surprised me, or that does, that didn’t surprise me. I knew that it was a trend, but the trend actually surprised me, um, which is, you know, more and more people doing their own apps. I thought, you know, five years ago I would’ve said, uh, you know, cuz people only do five apps, that may not be a thing. And then the other part is the analytics picture, so that you can help to know and then do custom triggers and actions, you know, to engage people. Um, and so, you know, I think, I think you’ve shared it too, you know, like, like you do the flywheel model, um, part of that means, you know, you wanna know and have, have data and insights, um, to how those people are moving so that you can send notifications to someone who, you know, hasn’t joined the community group before and, and you want them to, or whatever. And so Resi plus Pushpay helps meet that. I like to say like, Resi had the eyeballs and then Pushpay has all the data on the back end, um, and the front end kinda tooling to help them. So, um, yeah, it’s been a great partnership so far. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. We want to, uh, take advantage of the fact that you have a really good vantage point of churches all across the country. We want to, uh, take advantage of that and hear more. Uh, you know, I remember pre-pandemic, uh, I remember when you were just with Resi talking about how, you know, and I really got fired up about your product from a multi-site point of view, from, you know, Hey, how are we gonna do that? And you guys solved an actual problem that, you know, for so many churches. Uh, and then you were talking a lot about live streaming, and I remember thinking, yeah, I don’t know, like how many churches are really doing that? We’ve been doing it since 2009. Uh, but like, even pre pandemic, I remember thinking, there’s just a lot of churches that seem resistant to it. They were talking about it like, it was like this odd thing. And then the pandemic happened. Now you and I haven’t talked since then. Uh, so what’s gone on kind of from, you know, this vantage point when you look back over the last couple years, anything surprising or any insights that you’ve gained through all of that transition? Collin Jones — Yeah. And I’d love to hear you answer that too, of, uh, and it’s especially interesting now, kind of that we’re post-pandemic, you know, maybe we can say that. I don’t, I think Canada, Canada, they just declared it, so it’s been declared in Canada. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Collin Jones — Um, so the, yeah, I mean, it’s been a super interesting, I guess three years. So now it’s May 22. And so obviously Resi, like a lot of churches did stream, like you said, but a lot of them didn’t. And then, yeah. And would love for you to tell too, your, your story with Resi. It’s, it’s always a fun one to hear and I’m sure it’s different now, but, and then we, we enabled kind of the same problems that people are having multi-site, which is, Hey, I need to get this [inaudible] so people would have to spend a lot of money on, you know, dedicated networks or different types of hardware.Collin Jones — And so Resi made that possible for much lower cost. Um, and then the same type of thing for live streaming. And then the pandemic happened, and yeah, Resi grew a lot out of that period. Multisite didn’t grow very much , so multisite kind of stopped. And then live streaming grew a lot. Um, and now I think, uh, Resi supports well over, I don’t know the exact number, but well over 80 of the top hundred churches today, which is pretty cool. And so yeah, it does give you kind of a cool analytical picture across. And Pushpay has a, a lot of the top 100 too. I don’t know the exact number, but pretty cool . So we do get to have a unique picture, I think of, of what’s going on at, at that level, and a lot of small ones of course, too.Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Yeah, you know, the, the interesting thing… Yeah. So for folks that don’t know, Resi, you know, is a, a robust streaming solution. I remember, so I started in multisite, oh gosh, 20, it was early 2000, so 23, 24 years ago. And we were literally the very first that when we were delivering messages from one campus to another, we literally started with SVHS tapes that we were, uh, the very first iteration was we were recording S on an SVHS tape at the nine o’clock service, and then hitting eject at the end, handing it to a guy who then got in a car and drove about half an hour to our first campus. That was our solution, which is crazy. Collin Jones — That’s awesome. Rich Birch — And right from the right from the beginning, and, you know, as you can imagine, all kinds of problems. You know, the very first week we launched, like our public grand opening, our, our lead guy looked green, the video went all like, there’s something wrong with the physical tape itself. Um, all the way through, you know, been at every iteration from literally Sneakernet driving it to, um, at one point we were doing satellite, you know. We’ve done, you know, download files, all kinds of different stuff to try to make that happen. And all the way along, we used to always say, you know, eventually somebody’s gonna come along with a solution that does two magic things. One, provides a high quality stream and does it in a robust, resilient manner that won’t drop. Because it’s one thing if a, you know, zoom call hacks, uh, or if you know, you just say, oh, it’s fine, we’ll just come back on, uh, in a bit.Rich Birch — It’s another thing if I’ve got, you know, at that point, thousands of people every Sunday, you know, in a multisite scenario. And Resi does that and does it for what I think is a really reasonable price. And so I’ve just been such a booster of you guys. I think you do such a fantastic thing. And then now to deliver that on the live streaming side, I know it’s just so compelling. The thing I, to be honest, the thing I love about it is at the level of, um, the volunteer who’s in a campus, receiving that video signal at a mult, from a multisite point of view, it’s just so straightforward to use. It’s not rocket science. It’s not, you know, when at one point when we were literally, we were doing satellites, so we were like, you know, it was crazy. Like, it was like, this is nuts. Why are we doing this? This is way more complicated than we need to be. Uh, but having it, you know, really simple and straightforward was just amazing. Rich Birch — Now when you, you know, so over these last number of years, you said obviously you saw live streaming increase. What is that… are we seeing that like Wayne, is that going back, or is hybrid church really here to stay – this idea… I would say that’s been my experience. You know, the churches that pre-pandemic were suspicious of church online, uh, then they, you know, now they’re like, well, that’s like God’s, you know, tool for us. Uh, but what are you seeing from a hybrid church point of view? Collin Jones — Hmm. Yeah, I think there’s been another iteration of that too. And that’s really fun to hear that story, Rich. So thanks for sharing. Cause it’s, yeah, we, we didn’t quite do VHS tapes, so you were before us there, [inaudible] the tapes, but, uh, yeah, I guess God forgives speeding tickets, maybe. Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. What could possibly go wrong? Collin Jones — [inaudible] church only. Yeah, yeah, no, that’s, that’s cool. And then, um, yeah, the live streaming component, like, you know, for, I think we saw, you know, I don’t know what percentage of churches were streaming before. It was, I think it was a pretty high number, like maybe 50% or whatever of churches were streaming. Maybe it was a little bit lower or higher. And then, you know, it all of a sudden went to a hundred, like in one week. Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — And then, and then I think like in the last year, you’ve kind of had people question that strategy. Like, I think, um, that first time everybody was, I remember our church, we did like free t-shirt weekend,. This was probably , this was in 2021 maybe. In August, we thought the world was gonna come back to normal. So we did free t-shirt weekend, you know, we’re all good. Covid is over, um, come back in person. And then, uh, like the Omicron or Delta… Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — …or something like that hit and schools closed again, and everybody was like, oh, no. And then, so, you know, we didn’t give out as many t-shirts as, as we wanted to. And so then things kind of went back to online. And then you had, you know, the, the next kind of semester of school, um, every, just having a lot of kind of online fatigue. You know, at that point we had already kind of done it for two years. Um, and, uh, the, you know, not, not many people are in the room. And I think a lot of pastors started blaming online, like, Hey, this is the online space fault. And so we had a lot of that. Collin Jones — And then I think there’s been a lot of acceptance around like, you know, we, we say three reasons to stream, which is front door, side door, digital door. And now I think most people accept that those are the reality, but probably don’t have a lot of energy or thinking around the growth of it. We have a few large churches that do, and a lot of intentional effort, but a lot that I think is just kind of the thing of like, oh, no, we gotta do this again, and talk about this again. Let’s just leave it, you know? And so from the data, that data that we had, um, from the State of the Church Tech report, which I encourage anybody to download it, it’s got some great insights in it. Um, 89% of churches employed a fully hybrid model. The way that that was asked was hybrid, in person only, and then online only. Collin Jones — So there are some churches who are still online only, which is unique. Um, and then about the same amount, the way that we did the data was a little bit confusing on that, um, because, um, online only spiked like quite a bit. So I, I think it’s from, from looking at the data, it’s basically fair to assume almost a hundred percent of those chose it’s, that said that they’re gonna be hybrid again in 2023 from 2022. And so I think what that tells us is, you know, churches have figured out like, Hey, this probably is here to stay, and I can dive into the three reasons if you want. Um, but we probably need to do some more innovation around what, what’s actually gonna motivate people’s habits. So, you know, some churches think I’m doing the online thing just to get people back into the building, and it’s like a funnel or a flywheel, right? Um, some churches are comfortable with people coming online and that’s it. Um, and, you know, the strategies I think are different depending on, on which one you, you choose. Rich Birch — Yeah. Let’s let, let’s talk through those reasons why to stay hybrid. Why would, why are churches choosing that? Why are they staying there? Um, yeah, what, what, what’s driving that? Collin Jones — Yeah. So I think, you know, we say front door, side door, digital door. So front door is, online is the new front door to your church, right? It used to be people felt comfortable just coming in, they would pass it and see it. And that happens a much, much lower percentage of the time than it used to ten, twenty, however many years ago. Um, so I think like the stats before Covid, and I don’t know them now, but we’re like, the average person comes to your online church, like 11 times before coming to your building, which is crazy, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. Like, it would be very common for our pastors to, to have people come over after and say, Hey, I came to Christ, you know, three months ago, um, I just wanna become in person. Ok, cool Rich Birch — Well, and, and like anecdotally, I, in, in a small group that I’m in – Alpha group – um, you know, and so it’s, I’m just a helper there. I just sit and pray. Uh, and there’s a couple who, this is this el so we’re talking spring 2023, and there’s a couple in this group who they, their own kind of self story is, Hey, we, yeah, we attend the church. Um, they’re wrestling with what it means to follow Jesus. They would, they would self-describe as saying, Hey, they’re, they’re kind of pre-Christian, or, you know, at least early in their Christian faith. Interestingly, the husband attends in person, and the wife attends online. And she, and they have been attending for quite a while. And it’s, it’s a difference in, um, comfortability around all the covid stuff. And again, friends, this is spring 2023. For lots of us we’re used to being back in rooms, but there are people who, you know, through for whatever reason are there. That’s an example of, you know, where I’ve seen that even just anecdotally in a, you know, super close hand, uh, relationship. Collin Jones — Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And some of that, I’ve, I’ve heard it very common with social anxiety. And as church just becomes less a part of our fabric of a society, which all the data says that it has, um and Covid pulled that forward, uh, just like some of the live streaming stuff that it pulled together, the, kinda the cultural, it’s not very normal to be a part of any groups, much less churches. Right? Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Collin Jones — So it’s like you, you’re not a part of clubs anymore, you know, whatever. It’s just much less part of our society. Going to a building, it’s very, very scary. You know? Uh, we, when we moved to Denver, we tried out more churches, and I was, you know, I’m a pastor’s kid and grew up at church however many hours every weekend. And during the week a lot. And it’s scary for me, you know, and I like know people at these churches that I’m going, you know? And it’s scary going into a new church on a Sunday just with your family. Um, and it’s like, how much more scary would it be for someone that you just described, like in an Alpha group, you know, who hasn’t, um. So, yeah, I think the groups are, you know, I think that’s probably where the thinking from a funnel probably went away to a flywheel, which I think you wrote a book about. Rich Birch — Yeah. Collin Jones — And the, uh, you know, where people are coming in at different stages of kind of the norm, right? Rich Birch — Yeah. Collin Jones — Um, of the invite from a neighbor, but maybe it’s to come over to their house for dinner and do an Alpha group, and then watch online, then go to church. So I think like that side door… go ahead. Yeah, ask yours and then… Rich Birch — Yeah, I was gonna ask that side door. Tell, talk to me about the side door. How would you define that?Collin Jones — Yeah, so side door is, um, so side door is people that are already in your congregation, and they’re, uh, they’re just busy people. So like, culture’s changed, um, there’s now soccer games on Sunday mornings, right? There used to never be a thing, but now coaches don’t care, right? They’re not, um, you know, it’s not, it’s not as much of a Christian culture anymore. So this Sabbath isn’t as revered. And so this is, you know, hey, I’m going skiing on a, on a Sunday, I’m going to Florida in the winter, I’m uh, have a soccer game. I would love to go to church, but my kids have soccer games, so they’ve gotta decide between whether they play sports or go to church. Um, and oftentimes, which one wins? Collin Jones — And so, you know, these are very active people. Some, most of the time, or a lot of the time, they’re community group leaders. They’re donors, they’re volunteers, right? Um, but, they’re the Sunday schedule for whatever reason, doesn’t always work. And so they watch online, you can get them invested in your mission more, their hearts and minds will be adapted by your sermons, right? And changed, transformed. And so then they’re following along with kind of the heart of your church if you do livestream. Collin Jones — The third thing is digital. So everyone that you wanna reach is online, right? So there is a digital funnel that still, um, which is, you know, doing things like online ads, having people share um, on social media, um, and to their different friends, right? Um, and campaigns around that of, you know, people coming to your site because they’re searching for a felt need or, you know, whatever it is that if they’ll end, end up at your livestream, that’s where they’re most likely to, you know, engage and come. And that’s kinda the next step that they’re a lot more comfortable taking than coming to a building. Rich Birch — Do you have a sense, or did this, the study pull out, um, any thinking around, or any kind of framework around how churches are thinking about what the ultimate goal is? Like, is so, um, you know, we, we had Jay from Saddleback on, and, you know, he was talking about, Hey, our goal is ultimately with all our online stuff, is to get to some sort of face-to-face. Now that doesn’t mean face-to-face on our campus. That could be face-to-face in a small group. It could literally be like, we want, we’re hoping people will have coffee with one other person who’s connected to the church in their, you know… So it, so how you define face-to-face is important, but any thinking that kind of where church leaders seem to be at, on, on that question? Collin Jones — Yeah, the data didn’t go into it for the most part, but I think it does tell a story, um, from some of the, the figures. I think, I think the trend is that most people, a lot of people, um, are wanting it to come back in person at some point. So like, online and hybrid is part of the mix, right? And the fact that hybrid church stayed, um, so high is like, Hey, we value online for, for different things and for for maybe the doors that I talked about, maybe other reasons as well. Uh, but we’re wanting more in-person, you know, community. I think a lot of churches that, that I know of in my network, um, used to have, you know, like Saddleback used to have like the Saddleback Anywhere or whatever, and I dunno if they had that or not, but I think they did. Collin Jones — Um, same thing with the Elevations and the, you know, different churches like, um, most church… and some of those actually have the resources to do it really well, right? Rich Birch — Right. Collin Jones — That’s the really large ones. But a lot of the, the medium, the large size churches, um, used to have programs and say, Hey, it doesn’t matter where you are, you can be a member here. Um, we’ll get you on an online community group. And a lot of those programs and staffing around it have, have paused, and it’s been more like, let’s get you plugged into a local community. Or if you’re in person, let’s get you to come into, to come into a community group or, you know, whatever it is. I think there are still online only, applications that make a lot of sense. Um, and that, that’s when you kind of get into to the, the very strong opinions of both sides of that argument, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Collin Jones — Online only versus, yeah. So the, the arguments I guess shifted. Like it used to be like, should we do online? And now it’s like, should we do online only? Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — Like, should online only be our thing? Like everybody agrees that we should do online now. Like you don’t really have like… Like I used to do a lot of teachings around this, and you have a lot of, um, people argue about it, right? Of like, should you even offer online as a medium? Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — And now it’s less of that. It’s more like, should you do online only? Which we don’t take a stance on. Whatever your strategy is, great. Rich Birch — No. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, pre pandemic, there was a, a church I was coaching, oh and I’ve done some work with them post -pandemic as well, but they, they’re one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And, uh, you know, they had a very funny interaction where, um, you know, this was, it was probably a year, like, it was probably spring 2021. I was talking to their lead pastor and he said, you know, Rich, it’s been such a funny journey over this last year. Uh, he said, you know, I pre-pandemic, I probably wouldn’t have got up and publicly preached against church online. Like, I wouldn’t have been the guy that’s like, that’s a terrible idea; we should not do that. But he’s like, I definitely thought it, and and I would’ve, uh, you know, we, and strat strategy wise, it wasn’t a part of what we were doing, you know, at all. Rich Birch — And then, you know, he said, there’s that great moment there in March, 2020 where, you know, I, I see, he said, I still remember, uh, you know, it was, it was still early enough that we got, we could all get together in our office, and every, everybody came together and I was like, okay, friends, you all need to get a Facebook account today. And we all have to learn how to do Facebook live today uh, so that we can continue to connect with our, with our people. And, and now it’s like, it’s a part of their strategy, his own personal social media. It’s fun. I chuckle every once in a while cause when I see him doing video and, and, um, you know, and yeah all that, uh, it’s, it’s, you know, that’s been the change that’s happened. It’s, it’s been fun to fun to watch for sure. I think the side door things interesting… Collin Jones — I think that brings up a great point too. Rich Birch — Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Collin Jones — Yeah, no, keep going. No, the, uh, the social media stuff was really interesting in the data, but we could talk about it later. And you go ahead. Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s, let’s talk about that. What’s, what are people’s thinking on, uh, you know, this social media side of this whole piece? Collin Jones — Yeah, so I’ll read the exact stat. So 89% of churches live stream on social media today, from the data from 2022. And then we ask them, what channels are you planning to do in the future? And so when only 47 were planning, 47%, we’re planning to do social media next year, which is pretty staggering. Rich Birch — Interesting. Collin Jones — I, I wasn’t surprised that that went down. I was surprised with how much that went down. That’s a lot. Um, this has been trended… Rich Birch — That is a… Collin Jones — …with churches that we’ve talked to, but that still surprised me. Rich Birch — Yeah, that does seem that that does seem like a giant drop. Um, I guess are people counting, did you, did you qualify on what is a social network? Cause like YouTube is a, in some ways a social network. Obviously it’s built around video, but I understand the, like what they’re saying. Classically, I guess would be like, they’re not streaming on Facebook; they’re not streaming on, you know, Instagram anymore. Um, like, or they’re not planning on doing that. Uh, but yeah, any kind of, uh, that, that is fascinating. What, what do you think’s driving that? Why, why the kind of shift away from a public place? And I would assume what that means is they’re doing more kind of their own private channel somewhere, um, you know, on their, on their own page, or the church online platform, something like that? Collin Jones — Yeah, we had a lot. And it’s, it’s good that you brought up YouTube because I think there’s a big trend towards which is, which is great. Um, YouTube is like a top of funnel place. Um, so YouTube as, you know, like the short video content, short form video content as a strategy around felt needs, et cetera. Um but I do think, I think a lot of people threw their audiences to social media and then are realizing that you can’t control them, or can’t control that media. So you’re, you’re basically giving other people your audience. And unless you’re a Transformation Church, or Bethel or you know, a Life Church or an Elevation, like, you’re probably sending your audience to those people, right? Um, which is, which is great, um, for that they’re still watching faith content, but a lot of times you want them engaging with your local community, et cetera. Or you’re sending them to cat videos or, you know, whatever. Rich Birch — [laughs] Yes. Collin Jones — So I think YouTube works, YouTube live works really, really well for the top 5% of churches or whatever it is, the top 2%… Rich Birch — That’s a very good insight. Collin Jones — …some of the largest. Um, but probably doesn’t for the, the rest, um, for live streaming specifically. I think that there’s still other great strategies for YouTube outside of ease of use. Like it’s easy for your people to go and find, which is great. And I think that’s why a lot of people do it too. Like on a tv it’s really easy to find it. Um, but if they’re on a phone or a laptop, um, then they’re, they’re probably getting distracted, right? And then they’re not clicking on the give button cause you don’t, you can’t even really have a give button. They’re not clicking on the connect in a group button or come in person button or, you know, whatever. And so I think that there’s a big trend to streaming on your own app, um, that increased by 3%, which from 35 to 38. Um, and, you know, doing things like your own, um, platform, um, and different, you know, kind of a trend back to your own platform, I think, which is kind funny. Cause it, it just, I think that’s pretty recent. Like it trended to external platforms like a year and a half ago, you know, and after Covid for a while and now it’s going back. Um a lot of churches that I talked to are, are trying to do it on their own platform just so they can control next steps and get access to more data and, um, not have ads, et cetera. So… Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. That’s, um, that’s a good insight. You know, the two things I wanna pull out there for us listeners, first of all, I like your distinction between, you know, there are those churches and we all have them in our movement—Elevation, Saddleback, whoever, you know, Transformation—that are kind of like, they’re the unique super outlier church. And you know, in my own coaching, and we’ve said it here before on the podcast, it is good to learn from those people, but it is a little bit like saying we’re gonna, if we, this was 30 years ago, saying we’re gonna build our strategy around what Billy Graham’s doing, cuz he seems he’s renting out, you know, he rents out the stadium, so let’s rent out the stadium next week and do that. You would never do that. You’d be like, why is that? There’s, and, and a number of those churches you, you mentioned are, they are just such a, they’re so, uh, they’re such outliers, they’re so different than all of us. We need to look at people that are just slightly above, you know, or slightly larger than us or kind of more, um, you know, in our kind of group. Rich Birch — And then the other piece is this whole rented land issue, building your house on rented land, something like YouTube or Facebook. Um, the danger there is—and we’ve seen this, right—the, um, you know, something changes, they decide they’re not interested anymore. Um, you know, you that can go away if you push all your strategy just in one location, if you don’t have more control of that, or to your point, uh, you know, you’re just feeding them. You’re just, you know, you’re just feeding their engine. You’re, you’re literally the be the net benefactor of sending someone to YouTube is actually YouTube. It’s not actually necessarily your, your people. I think that’s a really good insight. Rich Birch — Now, I did see something in, in the report that got caught my eye that I’d love to hear your thoughts on. Talk to me about Metaverse. Uh, what there is like some interesting kind of stuff there around, uh, around that, that I found a little bit surprising.Collin Jones — Yeah. I’ll read the stat. Um, and then qualify it. So 25% of churches that were surveyed planned to offer Metaverse worship services in one year from when that research was done, which is very high, one outta four. Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — Um, which also very surprising. Keep in mind that was that this, the survey I think was done right when, you know, Facebook, Apple and all of these companies reporting like tons of spend, kind of like, um, AI is today. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Collin Jones — Like if you ask churches right now, how many of you plan to do AI stuff, it’d probably be like, you know, a really high number, right? And then maybe a year from now, you know, it depends on how the trend goes. Maybe it’s the same, maybe it’s lower. My guess is that we’d have a lot lower, say if we asked the question right now. But that it’d probably still be higher than we think. I think there’s a lot of cool use cases for this. Jeff, Jeff Reed, who I think you know well, um, uh, The Church Digital is doing a lot of, um, Metaverse kind of, um, cohorts with, um, with a few different church planting networks, Leadership Network, one of them that, um, that does strategic content for them, um, with Exponential, et cetera. Um, and so he, he’s got kind of a lot of just really random, very cool God’s using use cases. Some of them are, you know, kind of the, the church model that uses it as another campus. Others are around kind of like a use case, like, Hey, we’ve got this gamer here that goes to our church who plays in VR every day, has a large audience, you know, or whatever. Um, that, you know, started a basically a church for us, right in VR. Some that are doing their own online churches only in VR. Um, and so I think that that’s, that’s a lot of, um, open space that, that we don’t really know how it lands. And the, the connection points probably that are going there are like the gamers that are in it today. You know, um, it is surprising, I think it, last time I looked like 8% of the United States, um, uses VR monthly. Um, which is a, a high percentage, right? And so that is like a great channel to reach people at. Rich Birch — Yeah. Collin Jones — 8% of the, the United States is a big number, so. Rich Birch — Yeah, there’s definitely that VR um, I’ve joked with friends… I’m a big Disney World fan, and, uh, you know, they’re, they had a VR headset at Epcot Center, I think it was 1988 or 1989. And, uh, it’s not fundamentally different than what we’re experiencing today. I understand that it looks way better. I get it, but it’s still like, it’s, uh, it feels like it still needs a, some sort of radical shift. And I know, I know Apple’s working on a headset this year. Uh, they’re supposed to be releasing one this fall, so it’ll, you know, it’ll be interesting to see what happens on that front. What’s Resi’s uh, what’s your kind of thinking on the Metaverse? Like, I know like Life Church has done the, like, you know, the campus in, um, you know, the Horizons I think it’s called, and they basically are streaming in, you know, a video from the, you know, from, from their actual, you know, whatever you call it in real life campuses. Is is that the kind of solution? Do you have any churches that are actually doing that kind of thing today?Collin Jones — Yeah, we have quite a few. So, um, yeah, Sun Valley also does to, to Facebook to Facebook’s world. Um, yeah and I, I do think like with the Oculus, like $2- or $300 headset that did like, create like a big, like… I remember we, we had, I forgot what it was, but four years ago we had to put all of the kind of sensors in the corners of the room. We had to have like a really powerful machine running it. Aand then fast forward four years, and it’s just this headset, you know, that’s all you need. Um and it looks way better. So I, I was very surprised at how far it’s gotten in that many years um, with the hardware requirements being that low and the cost being that low. But I agree, like there has to be some… right now, the only real reason for you to go there is gaming, right? So like if you’re, um, but I could imagine like working there, um, doing a lot of different things there and how it would be better than, you know, components of life, which is, you know, a meta thing to even talk about. But the, uh,  and, you know, have to feedback and all that, it gets weird quick. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Collin Jones — But um, churches are doing it. Um, often today it looks like just like a multisite. It’s like you’d have, you know, the screens sometimes even dual channel, you know, with like a person on the stage. Other times people will have like their own dedicated pastor for it. Um, and so they’re there. Um, and there are some interesting social dynamics that are different than, you know, in life or online um, that are interesting. I think like, like you can just walk up to someone and start talking to them, all the sermons going, and that’s, that’s a normal thing to do. Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — So like you can have volunteers, you know… Rich Birch — Right. Collin Jones — …getting to know people, which you couldn’t do on a, if they’re on a screen, you know, watching your stream. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s interesting. I know Scott Galloway the thing, he, he is always punching on in the New York, uh, New York University professor, he’s always punching on Meta. And like, you know, he, he has a ax to grind there and his, this, the sound bite that he keeps rolling out is, um, so Horizons, which I think is what the Facebook thing is called, um, is, uh, his, his whole thing is like, let’s not forget, friends, that Horizon today has less active users as MySpace today. Um, that, you know, that current, the current MySpace site… Collin Jones — Yeah, interesting. Rich Birch — …has more people using it, uh, regularly than, you know, than Horizon. So I, you know, I, it feels like there’s something here. It feels like there’s, I I agree that down the road this, if this does feel like, oh, there, we’re gonna end up there someday. I’m, I was shocked by the one in four churches thing, but I, you know, I think you’re right, there’s probably a caveat there around, you know, you catch the hype cycle at the right moment and, you know, lots of innovators are like, we’re doing it! We’re doing it! Which is, which would be people that are attracted to, you know, talking with you guys. Rich Birch — So well kind of as we come to, you know, come to land as we kind of come to, you know, wrap up this, first of all, friends, we’ve got a link to the, uh, study in the show notes. You know, pick it up. It’s fantastic. There’s a ton…we could talk for a long time on these. Are there any other kind of, uh, parting thoughts as we wrap up, uh, this conversation, uh, about, uh, the report or just technology in general and its impact, uh, in the church? Collin Jones — Yeah, I think, I think something that I always try to offer when we’re, when we’re doing this is like, how do we, how do we win online? And I think it’s always experimentation, right? So I think like, you know, really the no-nonsense guide, the winning online or with any channel… Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — …um, that’s constantly changing is, you know, experiment, like measure what matters. So measure your mission, measure what matters, make sure that everyone agrees and knows what that is and that it’s very clear, you know. And then two experiment. So make sure that people are empowered to experiment, and that they know the boundaries there and the lines. And then the third is just do more of what works and less of what doesn’t. Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — And that’s really, you know, we all don’t understand online that well; we’re all trying to figure it out. Rich Birch — Yes. Collin Jones — It’s all, how can we reach people, more people for Jesus? And so I think, um, yeah, not, not, not feeling behind is a great place to start. Um, and just doing those three things, experimenting and, um, everybody is, you know, uh, in, in kind of the same spot of not understanding online. Um, and we’re all experimenting together. Rich Birch — Love it. Well, Collin, I really appreciate you being here today. Uh, again, we’ll link to the show notes. Uh, we’ll link to the study in the show notes, but if we wanna send people online anywhere to learn more about Pushpay, about Resi, where do we want to send them, or to connect with you? How does, how does all that work? Collin Jones — Yeah, either of our sites: resi.io, so resi.io and pushpay.com, um, which I think everybody probably knows how to spell Pushpay, so I’ll avoid you [inaudible] that. And then the State of the Church report is, is has a lot of other insights too, not just on online on online, but a lot a lot of other digital tools and what people are buying and um, that I think is a great resource as well. Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Collin. Cheering for you and the team. Uh, you know, you definitely got fans over here, so appreciate you being here today. Thanks for helping us. Collin Jones — Yeah, thanks Rick, so much, Rch, so much. And yeah, I’ve loved your content for a long time and still keep up with it. Um, and love the main idea of unSeminary and this is very much in that realm. I don’t think there’s a seminary class on, uh, church online. Maybe there is now. Rich Birch — Yeah.  Collin Jones — Hopefully. Rich Birch — That’s great. That’s great. Thanks so much, man. Appreciate you being here today. Collin Jones — Thanks.

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast! Today is part 2 of a conversation that we started back in April with Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. If you’re curious about the state of church staff health in the US, you won’t want to miss this episode as we dive into the findings of the 2023 Church Staff Health Assessment. Survey topics. // The Church Staff Health Assessment gathered data from 1,063 part- and full-time staff members at churches all across the United States. The sample size included all different church sizes, denominations, people from different positions and age ranges, and the study asked 50 different questions around seven major church staff health categories, including: communication, job satisfaction, leadership, team dynamics, compensation/benefits, work environment, and future stability. Communication is key. // The study revealed that while 60% of people surveyed feel communication is great, 40% of staff members feel that their leadership needs to improve communication with them. Regular and transparent communication is essential to ensure that staff members feel valued and heard. Address issues by communicating information repeatedly and consistently through multiple channels. Also, provide staff with a way to give feedback to the leadership. Job satisfaction. // 80% of staff members feel like they are making a difference in their current role. However, the study found that does not necessarily translate to overall job satisfaction. Over a third of those surveyed are either unhappy or neutral about their overall job satisfaction. These results may reveal some toxicity in the church culture that needs to be addressed. A church might be great to attend, but not so great to work at. Compensation and benefits. // While 58% of church staff members are satisfied with their current salary and benefits, there is a discrepancy between the satisfaction levels of executive pastors and senior pastors when compared with other staff members. In addition, 59% of church staff say that the annual evaluation process along with the strategy for compensation analysis is broken. And when executive pastors and senior pastors are removed from the equation, the number goes up even more. Although it’s challenging to have conversations around your staff members’ job performance, it’s critical that people get clarity on how they are doing in their roles. Future stability. // 60% of church staff members say that they’re optimistic about their future at their church. Yet over half of staff members surveyed have seriously considered leaving their current church role in the past year, and 56% are open to other opportunities. Todd suggests that this signals a chance for leadership to build partnerships with the staff and understand why there is this openness to leaving. The bottom line is healthy staff members create healthy churches. And healthy churches minimize the transition of staff members. You can download a FREE 45-page PDF of the 2023 Church Staff Health Assessment results when you visit chemistrystaffing.com/staff-health. Plus, if you are interested in surveying the staff at your church, Matt and Todd can help provide you with a customized survey. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey, everybody welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Rich here, and I am super excited for today’s conversation. This is really part 2 of a conversation. Back in April we had our friends Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen on from Chemistry Staffing. And they were just kicking off the Church Staff Assessment where they were really out talking to church leaders and looking to um, you know, gather insights. And today we’re going to get a chance to dive deep into those insights. So welcome back to the show, guys. So glad you’re here. Todd Rhoades — Thanks for having us; good to be here. Matt Steen — It’s great to be here. Rich Birch — So good. Todd why don’t you tell us ah, refresh people what you were so what you were talking about what you’re trying to sample from people, and then kind of talk about the at you know the size of you studied and all that kind of stuff, like kind of the meta information to start. Todd Rhoades — Sure. Well we we asked 50 different questions around 7 different major ah church staff health categories. So we took ask questions on communication, and job satisfaction, leadership, team dynamics, compensation/benefits, ah work environment, and future stability. Really what we wanted to do was find out, ah particularly since you know the last three years since the pandemic has just it’s been crazy, ah for churches and for staff people. So we wanted to find out what how are how are church staff really really doing. So we were really excited. We had 1063… Rich Birch — Amazing. Todd Rhoades — …um, full-time and part-time staff people that completed their assessment. Um and a wide range, I mean we had um, yeah, all different church sizes, all different denominations, all different parts of the country, different positions, age ranges. We got a really good kind of a spectrum of responses. And again 50 questions, we asked ah a kind of 50 questions or statements and asked everybody to rate the how they were feeling on a scale of 1 to 5. You know, one would be strongly disagree. Three would be kind of I’m in the middle, I’m neutral. Five would be, man, I’m really strongly agree with this. So the the responses have been been really, really interesting. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing. Congratulations on, you know, that’s a good sample size. A thousand is is fantastic. The fact that you were able to kind of get over that that hump is is incredible. And I, so friends, just pulling back the curtain a little bit here and seeing behind the scenes, this is a giant report, like you know 50, 60 pages, like there’s a ton of insights here. There are 17 major findings, and then dozens of like things that we could talk about, and we don’t have all day. We were going to try to do this in half an hour or so ah, but really we want to send you to pick up the entire report. Let’s right start off the beginning, where do we want to send people, Matt, to pick up ah, this report? Where do we want them to download it? Matt Steen — So it’s it’s chemistrystaffing.com/staff-health. Rich Birch — Love it. Matt Steen — And so we’ll send send people that way and I’m sure you’ll drop it in down below. But that’s that’s where you can get the download, right there pretty, pretty easily. Rich Birch — Love it. Well, Todd, I’d love, you know, our mutual friend, Warren Bird, I I ask him these questions every time he does a study like this and yeah, he hates it. I’m like okay, what’s your favorite finding. Let’s start with the thing that jumped off the page. And he’s like, I can’t just say one; there’s so many interesting things. So that’s for you, Warren. But ah Todd, where like where do we want to start? What do we want to you know top of the the conversation today. Where do we want to to dig into… Todd Rhoades — I can’t just say one There’s so many interesting things. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. Todd Rhoades — Ah no, really, there are. And, hey, Warren, if you’re listening. Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — Um, yeah, what what let’s start here, just kind of overall, if we look at the 30,000 foot level. Um. We asked ah, you know all those 50 questions and then we we tallied up all the scores and kind of put everybody into into a number of different ranges all the way from strong, excellent, you know to critical, you know, fair, needs improvement, all of those. So ah, what we found was, overall, and again this 30,000 foot level, a little over half, about 52%, of all the church staff people that we that we got assessments from scored either strong or excellent. Okay? Rich Birch — Okay, yeah, that’s great. Todd Rhoades — That’s really good. Over over half 52%. Um about 24% scored good. Um, but we look at the goods as being kind of kind of the neutrals. Ah the good scores were in that 3 range out of the 1 to 5 scale. So the good, you know, the goods are getting like a C. You know, a C, a C+. So ah, those are the neutrals. Those are the ones that as we kind of look at what to do with this report and the findings of this report the neutrals are the ones that that kind of are they’re kind of they can be swayed. They can be convinced. Okay, so some of them might have one foot in, one foot out. So about about a quarter ah are fall into that good category. Todd Rhoades — Another quarter, um about 24%, fall into the fair, ah or the needs improvement, or the critical areas. And as we kind of digest this all this data, I mean those that are that kind of come back with those ones, and a lot of ones, and twos, and a few threes, maybe a four here and there. Ah those are the ones that are um, honestly those are going to be the people that are gonna gonna resign or be fired… Rich Birch — Yes, right. Todd Rhoades — …ah you know in the next year ah if there aren’t some real proactive steps taken now. So hopefully by identifying some of these critical areas, not just how many people fall into the critical areas, but the individual things that are kind of causing people to feel like this, we think hopefully we can we can start to dive in and make things a little bit healthier. Rich Birch — Wow, that’s ah you know that’s interesting to think about, and we’ll come back to this, but even you know you start to think about those numbers for our own teams, right? Maybe we got 10 staff members, you know, 5 of them are in that you know in in a good spot. You know might be in a good spot. A couple of them are struggling and a couple of them might be on the bubble. Right? Todd Rhoades — Yep, yep. Rich Birch — What’s and how did what’s your sense… I know so I’m looking forward to next year’s study already, but like what’s your sense just even from conversations, how that (and again unfair question) how that you know trends pre-pandemic even just in the conversations you’re having with churches that that sort of thing? Todd Rhoades — Matt, you want to take that one? Matt Steen — I think, you know, I was I was kind of surprised and encouraged, right? Rich Birch — Okay, good. Matt Steen — You know, and and I think, Todd and I, we we talk, you know, we spend a lot of time talking with people in transition, or or working with churches that are kind of in in some maybe bumpy spots as they’re as they’re going through a hiring process. And so this came out and I look at it. It’s like 52% of people are are in that strong and excellent. That’s that’s really encouraging for me. Um, and I think that’s I think that’s probably much higher than it was maybe oh two, two and a half years ago. Todd Rhoades — I think so too. Matt Steen — Um, and and we’ve even seen this in some of the work that we’ve done as we interview people. You know, there was there was a time there when we were sending more people to counseling than we were to to churches that were looking to hire somebody. And and I so I think this kind of matches some of the some of the anecdotal stuff that we see, which is really encouraging. I you know I am with Todd. You know the the 25% in the goods, man, there’s a lot of there’s a lot that can come from us focusing on some of those areas and and really kind of helping that that crowd feel, you know, more engaged in ah in their in in their day to day. And then we’ve got some we’ve got some issues to clean up with with that bottom 25%. But all in all, man, I genuinely was encouraged by this. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Well you know I know one of the things about it seems like everything that in any kind of human relationship communication is so important. Did you find anything that kind of talks about ah, how are we doing interacting, kind of communicating with our teams. You know, do people feel good about that? Where where’s that landing, Todd? Todd Rhoades — Well and and this is this is one of the one of the top findings that I I think is most important because it has really overarching view on a lot of different things, right? Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — And what we found was that um even though everybody says communication, you know, communication is key and it’s essential, a full 40% of the people that that filled out the assessment feel that their leadership needs to improve communication with staff. So again, you can you can look, and we try to be really balanced in this report. You know, there there are great things that are happening, but there are also some things that that could could stand some improvement. So if you look at this question and this is, you know, as you dive into some of the details and some of these individual questions, so 60% think that communication is great. Um 40 but 40%, 4 in 10 people on a church staff, um feel like communication is needs to be better. So there’s there’s um, communication is not easy. It’s it’s one of those things you have to do continually, and intentionally. Um but a lot of churches are are just needing to really kind of step up in the area of communication, according to what we found. Rich Birch — Um, yeah, it proves that, you know, old anecdote, you can’t really over-communicate, right? You can’t, you know, you you can’t like talk about stuff too much. You can’t like you got to try multiple channels. We’ve got to, you know, give people feedback loops. It’s got to be consistent. It’s got to be regular. Um, yeah, that’s that’s interesting. Interesting. Rich Birch — One of the things I know, you know, ah during this season—particularly in this which I know this is a fascinating study to me because of the kind of post-pandemicic implications of all of this—is you know, are people holding on to their jobs because they love them. Or are they just holding onto their jobs because they’re worried that they can’t get a job somewhere else. Are are they really happy with their, you know, job satisfaction? How, were there were there things that you pulled out that give us a sense of, you know, where people are at from a you know job satisfaction point of view? Todd Rhoades — Well yeah,. So let’s start with the positive, okay. Rich Birch — Sure yep. Todd Rhoades — Um, when it comes to how do they, do they feel fulfilled in their role, ah we asked the question you know, do you feel like you in your in your current role are having a positive impact in your church and your community. 80%, 8 in 10 people… Rich Birch — Wow. Todd Rhoades — …said man, I feel like I’m in my current role that I’m making a positive impact, having a great impact on my church and in my community. So that’s that’s the positive side. Okay, ah where where it gets a little bit um dicier is about 36%, a little over a third of staff, tell us that they’re they’re either unhappy, or they’re they’re in that 3 category. They’re neutral when when they’re asked about their overall, are you satisfied overall with your job, you have overall so job satisfaction. So about a third of the people tell us that they’re either unhappy or neutral. Um, which is you know over a third, that’s a lot of people that are kind of either, no, I’m not satisfied. Or I’m kind of on the fence with it… Rich Birch — That’s fascinating. Todd Rhoades — …according to what day you ask me. Um but at the same time, overlap that that still 8 and 10 feel like they’re like they’re they’re making a positive impact. So it’s possible I think from this if you extrapolate the data that people can feel really fulfilled, not fulfilled, but they feel like they’re making a difference, but yet they don’t feel necessarily like they they’re happy in their current job situation. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah that’s an interesting insight because I think sometimes we might over ah put over emphasis on the fact that like, hey people are getting baptized. You know, whatever, whatever measures that to our church are really important, and we assume that well because people see those things that then translates into, oh then I’m they’re going to be happy; they’re going to like their job. And that’s interesting. That’s just even interesting mental kind of game to play is like it’s possible, there is a segment maybe a third of your team that is at the point where they’re saying, yeah I see that this is making a difference; I am just not very happy. Todd Rhoades — Yeah, exactly. Rich Birch — Like I know that what I what I’m doing is working, like but, gosh, it’s grinding me down. Todd Rhoades — Yep, yep. Rich Birch — Um you know, that is an interesting insight. Fascinating. What do you think about that, Matt? Matt Steen — You know, I’ve been there, right? And I think I think there’s a lot of people that have been in ministry for a while that they get that, right? They’re they’re they’re looking around. They’re seeing fruit in their ministry. They’re seeing, you know, people getting baptized, people meeting Jesus, good things happening. But at the same time are just in this weird spot of, but man, I’m I’m, I’m empty, I’m hollow, or potentially, you know, there’s some other toxicity that’s going on here. You know I’ve I’ve heard some people say this is a great church to attend, but this is a awful church to work at. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes, yes. Matt Steen — And and so I think sometimes, you know, that 8 in 10 number can can cause people to hang on a little too long. Rich Birch — Um, interesting. Matt Steen — Um, and so I think there’s I think there’s good and good and bad in this. I mean good, man, the the fulfillment piece is awesome. But you know, we we need to you know we we need to be comfortable with with kind of dealing with that whole piece if if you know 3 out of 10 people are kind of wrestling with, hey, I don’t even I don’t even know that I want to show up to work on you know on this day. Um, there’s there’s some, there’s some questions that we need to we we need to work through with our staff, and just help them understand you know, hey how how do we get to a place where you’re you’re fulfilled and actually loving this, as opposed to you know, just kind of muddling through. Rich Birch — Yeah, that that’s – totally. And well, and yeah, I’ve unfortunately there have been sad times in my ministry where I’ve made the joke, everybody loves the sausage; nobody likes the sausage factory, right? Matt Steen — Oh yeah. Todd Rhoades — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — Like it’s that it’s that idea, right? Matt Steen — Oh yeah. Rich Birch — And and and some of that’s just true. Like some of that is normal. Matt Steen — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like I was… my my daughter she’s just out, first job’s, been a couple weeks in, she’s working at a great church. It’s a great church. But you know we’ve had a couple conversations where I’m like yeah, that’s why it’s called work. Like it’s, you know, like not all of it is necessarily fun, right? Like it is and that that is an adjustment for sure. She’s doing great, but, you know, it is it can be. Well, there’s a lot of executive pastors listening in who I know are like they’re itching to talk about compensation. Ah, you know, even if we’re, you know, we’re we think about that, you know, we’ve been caught in this trap – do we pay people too much? Are that we’re not paying them enough? Um, you know how do people feel about that? You know what are the dynamics? Todd, what did you… I know you asked some questions around that. What what did you pull kind of out from this conversation on that front? Todd Rhoades — Yeah, well, it’s really interesting. And what I’m going to give you ah are a couple of our findings overall. Okay? Rich Birch — Okay. Todd Rhoades — So this includes all church staff people. What we found though is that the numbers change fairly significantly when you take the senior pastors… Rich Birch — Ohhhh… Todd Rhoades — …and the executive pastors out of the mix. Rich Birch — Okay, okay. Todd Rhoades — Ah, the numbers the numbers kind of kind of go up. And that makes sense, right? Because the senior pastors and the executive pastors are usually the ones that are kind of setting those those compensation and benefits. So just a couple of findings that we found. Um. Todd Rhoades — Ah, 58% of church staff are satisfied with their current salary and benefits package. So you know on the positive side, 58%… Rich Birch — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — …that’s more than half. That’s good. Rich Birch — That’s good. Todd Rhoades — But that also means that what, if my math is correct, like 42% are not satisfied… Matt Steen — Struggling. Rich Birch — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — …with their current salary and benefits package. And you know, we’re staffing company. We talk to staff people all the time, and that’s one of the things that we hear is that, you know, I I don’t feel like I’m compensated well. Um so so that’s that’s one finding that I think is really significant. The other one I I think is is interesting as well, and again this is a number with everybody included. But the number actually goes up I think it was 64% or something. But ah 59% of church staff say that the annual evaluation process along with the strategy for ah compensation analysis is broken. It needs some improvement. So you take the executive pastors and the senior pastors out, I think that goes up to like 64%. Rich Birch — Wow. Todd Rhoades — So that’s a huge number. And again it’s, I get it. It’s it’s tough to schedule out and they’re uncomfortable to do the annual performance reviews. But what you what you get when you don’t do it is employees that feel underappreciated, undervalued and always wonder how they’re doing. Um so ah, just again, we talk about all all throughout this report is maybe some low hanging fruit. It might not be enjoyable or, you know, it’s not something you want to do. But it’s something, it’s just is that’s what the people are telling us is that this is extremely valuable to us. And when you have, you take the 59 number for 59%, you take the 64%, either one is a huge number that says… Rich Birch — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — …we’re not getting, you know, kind of what we need. Matt Steen — Need to do something. Todd Rhoades — Yeah, we need to do something here. Matt, anything you’d add to that one? Matt Steen — I think I think some of that is plays back to some of the communication struggles that we were talking about earlier, right? Rich Birch — Oh good. Matt Steen — And and people want to know, want to be clear about how they’re doing, you know. Are they doing a good job? Are they not? You know some of the I think some of the brokenness of of of the evaluation process, and all that kind of stuff, you know probably feeds into some of these some of these other numbers of people just kind of being on the bubble. Todd Rhoades — Yep. Matt Steen — I think that’s probably the thing that, you know, most of the the neutrals, the people that are kind of on the fence, you know, some some of that can be solved pretty easily you know with with a regular conversation around, you know, evaluation and and helping kind of demystify how how how compensation strategy’s done done in your church. And you know, again, it’s it’s awkward because we never like to have, you know, pointed conversations with people about how they’re doing workwise and that kind of stuff. But at the same time, you know, clarity is so awesome. And just the beauty that comes from clarity. Rich Birch — Yeah… Todd Rhoades — And if if you want to take it a little bit deeper, so many of these findings are kind of interrelated, as Matt said. Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — You’ve got kind of compensation, but you’ve got some team dynamic things working in here, and and some communication things. But I mean another one of the findings that we found is that over a third of staff members tell us that they don’t they don’t feel like they’ve got clarity in their own role, you know. So that could be that could be as much as I don’t have a job description. Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — Ah that could be I had a job description, but everything’s gone haywire since covid, and I’m doing something totally different than my job description. Um, but the whole clarity, lack of clarity by over a third of staff members that say, I I just would like to know what my role is; is that too much to ask? You know? Rich Birch — Yeah, what’s my… I’d like to know what my job is. Todd Rhoades — Um you yeah just tell just tell me what game to play. Rich Birch — I’ll keep showing up, but what am I supposed to do? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Well, and this pushes towards, I know um you know tools like Leader that are trying to provide structured, okay, we’re going to help you with your you know conversations. Or 15five kind of a weekly check-in, you know, those kinds of tools. Man, um and I’ve seen churches use those effectively those are two that I know churches use effectively to try to keep this conversation going so… Because there is the weight of the annual evaluation process can feel super daunting. It’s like the the first time you do it, it’s like, man, we’re going to have to take like a month offs work, and not… Todd Rhoades — Exactly. Rich Birch — …have like and do anything else to get all this done. How are we going to do that? And so man if we could shift that out of this kind of big annual thing and more into an ongoing, let’s be constantly giving people feedback. Matt Steen — That’s it. Rich Birch — Ah that would be that would be amazing. That, I do find I do find that shocking, to be honest, that 60 almost 60% of church staff say that that process is is seems to be broken or needs improvement. That’s that’s incredible. You baited me here, Todd. You said that ah you said 58% of church staff are satisfied with their current salary and benefits, and you just let a little thing out there about executive pastors and ah, you know senior pastors. Do you have a sense – you might not have the number right in front of you. What did that cohort think about their compensation? Todd Rhoades — I don’t have those numbers in front of me, but they’re they’re, again, because they’re the ones kind of leading the seat at the table, they seem… Rich Birch — Setting it. Todd Rhoades —…to be a little bit more… Rich Birch — Yes… satisfied. Todd Rhoades — …um happy with with their… yeah [inaudible]. Matt Steen — The the overall number goes down once we remove once we remove them, in in some of that. Rich Birch — Okay, I see. Matt Steen — And and and we see we see a good bit of that through it. You know, where there’s where there’s a general sense of, you know, the the guy that sets the budget is typically fairly happy with [inaudible]. Todd Rhoades — Yeah, exactly. Rich Birch — Right. Matt Steen — …with what with what he’s taking home, right? So… Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, maybe talk about that, Matt, from an just an overall trend there that there. Because that’s even an interesting meta finding that, if what I hear you saying, is there seems to be some evidence that like as senior leaders, we’re more positive about our church than than the people that work for us. Is that what you’re saying, Matt? Matt Steen — We’re seeing we’re seeing some of that. You know, we’re we’re seeing where where we’ll see you know a number is, you know, 60% satisfied when we have, you know, the senior and the XP included, and it drops to 40 when we pull them out. And so we’re seeing a good bit of of that. Now, it’s not like… I think that’s I think that’s normal. I think that’s that’s that’s natural and in in a lot of organizations where where there is that drop. Part of part of how we’re looking to use this, and I’m… spoiler alert – don’t want to get ahead of us, but part of how we’re looking to use this tool ultimately is to to help us understand, what do our senior leaders, what what does our board think about where our entire staff culture is? And and oh, by the way, where is there a discrepancy between what what our staff really feels and really thinks? Because I mean you we we know you know anybody that’s been in senior leadership, it’s it can be really tough, you know, to to to always be up to speed on what what everybody in your team’s thinking, especially if you got a huge team. And so part of part of what we are seeing is is, I don’t necessarily know that is you know it’s It’s a nefarious thing. I think it’s just one of those deals where, yeah, you know, it’s not uncommon for an executive pastor to think that the annual evaluation process works great because they’re they’re running it, right? But but maybe… Rich Birch — Yes, it’s a great process. Matt Steen — It’s a great process. I designed it, you know. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Matt Steen — And and there’s algorithms and stuff, right? And then we we forget that there’s there’s a group of people that need more communication that we haven’t necessarily explained, how does this work? Why does it work that way? And so some of what this I think some of what we’ve highlighted over and over again in this is that there might be a little bit of a drop off in awareness um, between our senior leaders and and our staffers that that tools like this I think can come and help help drive some of the conversation, whether it’s awkward or not. But help us kind of be able to to really kind of hone in and say, hey where where are we not seeing eye to eye on some of this stuff. And so I don’t think that’s I think that’s pretty common organizationally in leadership. But, I think it highlights you know, just just how just how steep that that disconnect may… Rich Birch — You know, Todd, we have heard ah over the last couple years, there have been new words that have come into our our lexicon in leadership that we had not heard before. “Quiet quitting” is one of them. You know this idea that people are kind of fading. You know this I heard one recently “bare minimum Mondays” – have you heard this? Todd Rhoades — Yep, yep. Rich Birch — Or, you know, people that are saying, you know what? I just phone it in on Monday. Um, did did you guys test, I know you tested ah, you know some stuff around, you know, all that speaks to stability, and like are people staying. Are they thinking, you know, should I be worried like is everybody applying to every the big church across town because they’ve got more money? Um, you know what are what did you find in that? Todd Rhoades — Well let’s let’s talk about optimism here first. Rich Birch — Okay. Todd Rhoades — Um and and you know I wish I wish we would have been able to do this assessment the last two years. And what we want to do, our plan is to continue to do this every year so that we have some some base numbers, and some some comparables so we can see how these numbers move. Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Rhoades — My guess is that a year ago, and two years ago, the amount of optimism in the church would have been much lower than it is now. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — Um it seems to it seems just from our work with tons of churches, and you know myriad of candidates, that that it’s getting better. And that that’s good. But what our study showed right now as far as optimism, only about 6 in 10 um, church staff members say that they’re optimistic about their future at the church. So it’s you know it’s over half, but there’s still 40 that are like, hmmm am I optimistic? Um, ah and then we asked ah to kind of take that take that a little farther out is we asked, ah how many of you think that you’re going to be, would I think the way we asked it is, would you be happy if you were in your current role, or at your current church in 3 years? do you expect to be there for 3 years? About 42% said they’re unsure. So about 6 in 10 said yeah I hope to be here in 6 years, or in 3 years. About about 4 in 10 are like, I’m not sure. Todd Rhoades — Um, and again, Rich, just to kind of tell you how how we look at these. As we kind of put candidates in in kind of the the healthy, and kind of the neutral, and kind of the the unhealthy needs some work. We call them the reds, and the the yellows, and the greens, right? So the the greens are that 60% that man they’re all bought in, they want to be there for 3 years. The neutrals I don’t have the breakdown on that, but the neutrals are those ah are kind of like they can be persuaded. They’re they’re just they’re not all in yet. And those those are the ones that are that are the most reachable, with some of the things that that you can do to make these things better. Todd Rhoades — And then you’ve got the red. You’ve got the criticals that are, you know, some of them honestly maybe are too far gone. Maybe they’re already doing the… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — …the nothing Mondays thing and… Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — …and and you know just the quiet quitting. Um, but but still, there’s there’s a pretty sizable for for a lot of the findings that we have and a lot of questions, there’s a pretty sizable number of reds that, man, if we can if we can kind of ah up our game, and and really kind of figure out where the issues lie, and and attack some of these, and and honestly do some, just dirty work, do some discipleship with our staff. Rich Birch — It’s not dirty work. That’s funny. Todd Rhoades — Um, here’s here’s the other here’s the other caveat I’ll just throw and here; this is a freebie. Um, so Matt and Matt and I run ah a staffing company, all right? So, we we pay our mortgages by helping churches find staff people. Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — That said, what our hope for this for for the findings of this assessment is that we want a healthy church. Rich Birch — Right, right. Todd Rhoades — And we want healthy staff. Healthy staff create a healthy church. Um. Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Rhoades — If if this can help churches to find the issues and to to to deal with the issues, and make things better for their staff, whether they’re the greens, make the greens more green, right? Make make their neutrals into greens. And and make the red, maybe you can get the reds to be neutrals. I don’t know. But if if we can cause church staffs to be healthier and churches to be healthier so that they don’t need us in the future… Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — …to run a staff search. Rich Birch — That’d be amazing. Todd Rhoades — Man, we’re we’re excited about that. It seems kind of awkward to say that as a guy… Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — …that runs a church staff firm. But with healthy churches healthy churches minimize the the the transition of staff members. It’s just it’s just that simple. And if if this assessment tool can help churches kind of figure out how to do that better, then that’s one of the goals we had for it. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s an interesting kind of just mental, yeah, kind of an interesting mental frame to put put it in. Because I think even in the healthiest of church, there could still be a moment where it’s like hey we need to hire somebody externally… Todd Rhoades — Sure. Rich Birch — …because we’re trying to, there’s an area that we’re trying to accelerate. We’re trying to you know we’re trying to… And it’s like, that’s a good reason to hire. Man, that’s amazing. As opposed to the like, man, we’re burning through people. Our people are constantly, you know, leaving to go to other churches. Man, we don’t like that. And I can imagine from your perspective, it’s like those are not great churches to to, you know, to work with. And those are hard, those are hard places to work with. I shouldn’t say not great. Those are difficult um, can be tricky situations to work with. Yeah, interesting. Todd Rhoades — Yeah, we [inaudible]… Matt Steen — Yeah, and I think that’s that’s some some of the some of the the hardest, but some of the best work that we get to do, um is come into those churches that have, you know, churned through several people, and really kind of help sit them down and say, Okay, why is this happening, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Matt Steen — We we let’s let’s see if we can stop that. This this tool I think is going to help help with that. But man, if we can if we can stop that churn, even if it means that I got to go sell umbrellas down on the beach, I’m I’m all for that, because I just I don’t want to see the church get healthy. So. Todd Rhoades — You do that on the weekends anyway, Matt. Matt Steen — I do, yeah. Rich Birch — Love it. Were there any, did you look at any questions specifically around that kind of churn question? And is there a way to kind of benchmark, are people talking to other people? Are there, you know, what what did you find on that front, Todd? Todd Rhoades — Um, yeah, ah I’ll let Matt talk for a second. I’ll go find the actual percentage, but we found that at least most people are, well, let’s let’s start here. Over over half we asked have you have you seriously considered um leaving your current church role in the past year. And over half, 53%… Rich Birch — Wow. Todd Rhoades — …have said, yes I’ve seriously considered it. And over half I’ll I’ll go and look at the at the percentage, I didn’t put it in my notes here. But I’ll go look for it. Um, most most church staff, over (by by most I mean over 50%) would at least consider another offer from another church. Um, so… Rich Birch — They would they would take the phone call. Todd Rhoades — …they would they… Rich Birch — If that church called, they would at least listen. They wouldn’t turn down the like why are you talking to me, you know. They they would listen when the guy calls and says, hey we’re wondering, do you know anybody who might be interested in this kind of role? They they would see through that ruse and listen to the conversation. That’s interesting. Todd Rhoades — Yeah. Rich Birch — What do you think about that, Matt? Matt Steen — Yeah, I… that was that was surprising to me that it was that it was, honestly, that it was that high. Um, but I but it also it also makes sense with some of the other things that we that we’re unearthing here. You know I think we all go through a pay to through phases where I call it “shields down”. You know we where I will listen to that to that conversation. You know, and and I think some of what we’re seeing as we’ve unearthed some of that stuff kind of points to why maybe. You know, maybe there’s some unclarity about what I’m doing. Maybe there’s some uncertainty about whether I’m going to be here in 3 years or not or it. The church is going to be here in 3 years or or not. So I think a lot of that kind of puts us into that shields down type of a type of a mindset. You know, and that’s that’s one of those deals for for us when you know talking to some churches that say, hey, let’s let’s figure out what’s going to help people put their shields up and be so so engaged here that they’re showing up on the day to day. They’re all in they’re not doing, you know, bare bare minimum Monday or or whatever it is. Because most pastors are off on Mondays, you know. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt Steen — I don’t even want to know what the acronym is for Tuesday. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt Steen — But you know I think there’s some, there’s some simple fixes here. So, Todd, what’d you what did you find? Todd Rhoades — So it was about, let’s see 50, 56%. So yeah, 56% are open to other opportunities. And that, what we say, is that signals a chance for leadership to to build some partnerships. Ah, just to to understand kind of, kind of why there’s that openness. Um, and… Rich Birch — That… Todd Rhoades — …and one thing I will say too is, you know, we’ve we’ve said that there’s greens and yellows and reds. And Matt and I talked to a lot of we talked to a lot of reds that are just really, you know, they have a lot of baggage and are just really working through some things. We talked to a lot of neutrals that are really kind of discerning, should I stay, should I go. But we also talk to some greens and and transition happens in the greens too. It’s possible… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Todd Rhoades — …to be totally bought in and abs… we talk to these not as often as we talk to the to the yellows and the reds, but we talk to greens all the time. But man, I love my church; I love my job but there’s just something God’s just kind of stirring in my heart. And it just tells me that there’s something else. So transmission can happen all across the board. But what we want to try it and highlight is how do we how do we make the the yellows and the reds um, you know, get a little greener. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, I love that. You know, I had the privilege of serving a couple founding lead pastors in the executive seat. And one of the interesting dynamics that I tried to work them through is, or we’ll put it this way. There was a consistent surprise when people would transition from the lead pastor, particularly the founding pastor, because they were like why would anyone want to leave this thing? This is like the best thing ever. Like this is like this is like and that’s because it’s their thing. Like they’re you know they’re the startup founder. And they can’t understand why anyone would ever want to go. But butt, you know, multiple times you know had to work that conversation through with those lead pastors. And yeah, there are people who they’re going to transition, and that’s going to be okay. And the flip side of that is no one is as committed as it as a founding pastor. That’s just true. Like they’re the they started it in their living room and they’re they’re fully bought in. Rich Birch — Well, you know, Todd, this whole time I’ve been listening and I’ve been thinking, Okay so this is interesting at the national level. Ah man, I wish there was a way that I could know what’s going on on my team. I and I wish there was there was some way that we could figure out, you know, to ask some of these similar questions. Do you have a solution for that, sir? Todd Rhoades — Yes, yes, sir, I do. Is is one of the things that, like you said, I think the the first step is for everybody that’s listening, go grab the free pdf, like like we said. We’re so we’re ah getting ready to release it. But it’s it’s sizable. It will it will, you can use it as a paperweight when you’re done with it. Todd Rhoades — But if if you’re interested in staff health and staff leadership, um, and you’re kind of geeky about this, you’re gonna this is gonna be interesting reading for you all the way through, I I think. Um, but the next step, and kind of the elephant in the room, is once you read this and you you kind of see all these national stats, if you’re if you’re kind of the key leader in a church just like you said, you’re asking, well these are these are interesting national figures. But I wonder what it’s like at my church? Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Todd Rhoades — So what we’re what we’re doing is we’re offering kind of a kind of an upgraded report, a customized, we’re calling it the Local Church Health Staff Report Assessment. So ah, what we’re doing, just really briefly, is, I think it’s gonna be really cool for churches, is first of all, um, we’re going to have the senior leader, whether it’s a senior pastor, whoever whoever the senior leader is, we’re going to have them take kind of a modified assessment. It’s going to be the same questions, but uh, I was telling Matt, it’s almost like the newlywed game. Remember the newlywed game, Bob Eubanks… Rich Birch — Oh yeah, yes. Todd Rhoades — …all of that where the, you know, they would ask they would ask the husbands, you know, how would your wife answer this question? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Todd Rhoades — Well we’re going to ask the pastors, what’s your perception? How do you think your staff is going to answer this question about about salary and benefits? Or about teamwork or team dynamics. How do you think they’re going to answer it? So so we’re going to have a layer of kind of the senior leadership’s um, how how they how they think it’s going. And then what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna ah um, have ah the church give us their their access to their staff. So each staff member will be able to take the assessment. It’s going to be confidential, you know, for the individual, but we’ll aggregate the data. And we’ll we’ll tell them kind of, okay, for each of these 50 areas, um, here’s here’s where your staff actually feel like they are. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — And we can compare that to where the senior pastor thinks they are. Rich Birch — Love it. Todd Rhoades — Ah and and and we can compare that also to the national average. And then optional is we’re gonna allow churches, if they want to they can also have their board members take it. And it’s almost like the senior pastor, how do we feel our staff is doing here? Rich Birch — That’s great. Todd Rhoades — So in in that, so so there’s going to be some real interesting findings I think here, not only from the staff level of this is what the reality is, but also where where is leadership blindsided? Where where are there gaps where we think, man, it’s going great. Everybody’s happy with their pay. And we find out that nobody’s happy with their pay. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Todd Rhoades — Ah, but we didn’t know that until we had this. So again, you know you you can look at the the national average, kind of the senior pastor perception, the reality at the local church, and then you can layer on top of that kind of board perceptions as well. But that that will be something that, you know, if you’re if you if you like the the national report, I think the next question is, okay so how are we doing? What’s what’s this look like in my church? Rich Birch — Yeah, what does that look like. Yeah, love it. So and, friends, listen, can we just have an honest moment for a second. If when you heard Todd say about the newlywed game thing there and you were like, oh, if you winced a little bit. Ah you’re like I’m not sure I want to know. You should lean in and want to know. Like I know there’s no bad information. There’s just information we don’t like. Like how are you going to be able to address these issues unless you get some sort of data on it, right? Like unless you have some sense of where it actually is. Rich Birch — Man, then… and you’re smart leaders. You’ll be able to address you’ll you’ll see very clearly, okay here are the areas where things that we think are maybe different than what our people actually think. And so um I just love that; I think that’s great. So again, we want to send people to chemistrystaffing.com/staff-health. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes, but we really do want to send people there. That’s that’s fantastic. Matt, what what are you hoping? What’s kind of the heart behind this? What are you, you know, what’s the the drive. What’s the change you’re hoping to see happen in in churches that participate in this. Matt Steen — I I’m hoping to put us out of a job. Rich Birch — Love it, love it. Matt Steen — I mean I mean I mean real really, we never got into this because because we we we thought we wanted to be head hunters. We we just we got into this because we love the local church and we wanna see churches get healthy. Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Matt Steen — And if we can if we can foster better communication between senior staff and in in the rest of the team, if we can stabilize and and make churches, you know, stop churning through people so quickly, man how cool is that? Rich Birch — That’d be amazing. Matt Steen — How how awesome is that for the kingdom? And so that’s that’s really, if we can do one thing that’s that’s really what I hope to see happen. Rich Birch — Love it. Well this has been fantastic. Todd, we’re going to give you the last word here. I need you to we’re going to bring it all right back around. Channel your inner Warren Bird. Ah what are you what are you saying to leaders that are listening in today about the report. How do, you know, what what do you want to encourage them with? Todd Rhoades — If if you are, so I think no matter if you’re a senior leader or if you’re the church custodian or whatever your role is at the church, I think you’re going to find some really interesting findings in this ah report. I would just encourage everybody just go download it. Like I said it’s free. Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Rhoades — Um, and and read through it, and we’re open to feedback too. We want to hear feedback. And and ah you know we we we value feedback. So um, looking forward to um to seeing exactly how we can how we can kind of help churches and learn um learn from… Ah you know we learned at the national level. But I think as we start to work with local churches and work through this that we’re going to find all different kinds of things that that, you know, we don’t know what we don’t know but we’re about to find out. Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Well thanks so much, guys. Again, that’s chemistrystaffing.com/staff-health. Go there and you know check it out. Again, we’ll have the link in the show notes. But ah, thanks so much – appreciate all the work you guys do for the church. Thanks for being here today. Matt Steen — Thanks, Rich. Todd Rhoades — Thanks, Rich.

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stevie Flockhart, Lead Pastor of 901 Church in Tennessee. Have you ever struggled with the desire for personal recognition and validation in ministry? In this unSeminary podcast episode Stevie shares his personal journey and struggles with comparison and the desire for success. Listen in as he examines critical lessons we can learn from failures, the importance of cultivating a culture of vulnerability on your team, and insights on discipleship. The comparison trap. // On some level everyone struggles with the temptation to compare themselves to others and receive recognition from man instead of God. Stevie admits that as a leader who wanted to make a difference in the world, the desire for validation and achieving was a struggle. However, through two failed church plants, God gently pruned Stevie so that he learned to lift up the name of Jesus and be faithful with small things. All of this eventually prepared him for planting 901 Church in 2019. Free to fail. // Stevie’s experiences have given him the opportunity to create a culture at 901 Church where people are free to fail. The staff is encouraged to be wise and be good stewards, but also to be vulnerable, take a risk and not be afraid of failing. Failure teaches us and builds character, making us the people we are today. Enjoy the journey. // We can be so focused on the destination that we don’t pay attention to the journey we are on. But Stevie says the destination is often a mirage. There is a lot of dysfunction in the idea that if we just get to our destination we will be fulfilled and satisfied. Only Jesus can satisfy us so we need to learn to enjoy the journey, both the successes and the failures. Learning from others. // In an effort to avoid comparison, we can’t to hide from others. Stevie says while we don’t want to compare results, it’s valuable to compare disciplines, principles or values and to ask what we can learn from others who are farther along than us on the journey. If we want to learn from others, we have to be willing to do the things others did to get where they are. Apprenticeship. // Both discipleship and evangelism must be prioritized for effective ministry. In addition to offering groups and serve teams, 901 Church has an apprentice program where staff and other leaders meet with two to four people twice a month in order to grow their relationship with Jesus. In addition to reading books and doing things like scripture memorization, they have a lot of conversation around two questions: What is God teaching you right now? What are you doing about it? This intentional discipleship process becomes a pipeline that raises up leaders within the church. Don’t go alone. // Stevie credits the success and growth of 901 Church to the financial and practical support they received from other churches and networks along the way. As a church leader or church planter, seek wise counsel from others who are farther along in the journey. Part of the way Stevie shares his own learnings is through participation with the Extraordinary Church Collective and also as co-host, along with his wife, of the Essentials podcast. You can learn more about 901 Church at 901church.com, plus listen to the Essentials podcast there. If you’re a church planter, connect with Extraordinary Church Collective here. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have tuned in today. Oh, man, we’ve got a great conversation lined up. I’ve been looking forward to this one for a while. Today we’ve got Stevie Flockhart from us. He is the lead pastor at a church called 901 Church in Memphis, Tennessee. They’re both one of the fastest growing churches and the most reproducing churches in the country. It was planted by Stevie in 2019, very opportune time, right before the pandemic. Uh, and they’ve seen a whole ton of people take steps towards Jesus. We’re gonna talk about that today. Their dream is to reach the city and have multiple locations across nine, the 901 area and beyond, really ultimately helping to reach, uh, the world in Jesus’ name. Stevie, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Stevie Flockhart — Man, so honored to be here. Thanks for having me on. Rich Birch — Yeah, fill in the picture there. What did I miss? Kind of talk me through what, you know, kind give us the 901 story. Give us a bit of the flavor. Stevie Flockhart — No, that was everything. You hit everything. So, no. So we, uh 2019, uh, my family and I, uh, married to Whitney, uh, been married for almost 13 years. We got three kids. So the five of us moved to Memphis, uh, in 2018 to plant the church, to get ready to, uh launch. And so spent time with the launch team. Uh, you do not know… if we knew Covid 19 was coming in 2020. Well, guess what? We were launch in 2021 or 2022, whatever… Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — …So, uh, we, uh, we launched with about 30 or 40 of us. And man, God just showed up. His hand was all over it um, learned a lot, uh, over the last several years. I’ll get to that in a moment. You know, we planted in, uh, the Atlanta area, went down to, uh, south Florida to revitalize a church uh, unsuccessfully, you know, so in the world’s eyes, man, I failed at it twice. And, uh…Rich Birch — Okay, okay.Stevie Flockhart — I came to Memphis, planted, and, uh, God just started blessing. And his, his favor was all over it, uh, truly skyrocketed. And every category you would ask, whatever, from attendance to salvations, to people, to groups. And then covid hit, you know? And so, uh, you go to three 30 or 40 people to several hundred in a year and a half, you think, my goodness, what’s, what’s happening here? And then Covid 19 hits, you know? And so, uh, if it had been up to us, you know, God really asked, Hey, what do you want to do? Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — What’s your perfect plan? You know? And so, uh, we’d have probably planted in 2021, maybe even 2022. And so, uh… Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — So we plant the church, And then a year later—uh, Easter 2019 was when we launched—and so truly, almost a year later, a little less than a year later… Rich Birch — Wow. Stevie Flockhart — …COVID happens. And so just like everybody else, we have to, uh, shut down, uh, meeting in person. Uh, we’re online. And it really did, uh, I don’t even wanna say killed momentum, of course it did. But it kind of gave everybody this new perspective of, so what now? You know? If we’re gonna continue to grow the church, continue to do what we need to do, we might have to do it in ways that we’ve never done before. And so, uh, we came back July of that year, and I’m telling you, God’s just been so good. I feel like we’ve planted the church twice, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — So, uh, it really, and I think that was everybody’s, uh, feeling, but again, for us being so fresh and so new, but God has continued to bless. We’ve continued to develop leaders. Uh, we’ve seen over 1400 people saved in four years. Rich Birch — Wow, wow. Stevie Flockhart — Uh, over 700 baptized. It’s just been nuts. And so, uh, uh, developing leaders, uh, I gotta give, uh, just a nod to my spiritual father, Mack Lake, who’s just poured into me… Rich Birch — Love Mack. Stevie Flockhart — …and helped me just with processes and systems on how to, not just not do it all yourself and delegate, but truly reproduce yourself. You know, delegate… Rich Birch — Love it. Stevie Flockhart — …reproduce, empower, equip others underneath you to continue to build the church. It’s been unbelievable.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. I love, so, such a great story. And I, I love the journey your, you know, your own personal story that, you know, God’s had you on, and I’d love to go there. I’d love to actually hear more about that. You know, you end up on these lists on fastest growing, most reproducing, and… Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, what does that do inside your head? Is that, how do you fight the… there must be just a natural kind of comparison game thing that happens. Take us inside that. Help us unpack that a little bit. What’s, what’s the story that’s happening there?Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. And so I think, uh, you know, for me, you know, and everybody’s journey’s a bit different, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah. Stevie Flockhart — But I think we all struggle with some of, uh, a lot of the same things. And so, especially leaders and, and guys that want to inspire, you know, and change the world. You know, there’s, so that comes with that sometimes if you’re not careful, you know. The flesh, your enemy will continue to try to lie to you. And so for me, uh, this is the crazy, let’s call it, uh, ironic thing about this: six, seven, eight, nine years ago, I wanted so badly to be on that top 100.Rich Birch — Sure.Stevie Flockhart — If I could, Lord, if I could just make the top hundred, then I could die, you know? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — Top hundred whatever. Don’t even have to be largest or fastest hundred [inaudible]… Rich Birch — Love it. Stevie Flockhart — …that started this year – just let my name be out there. Something… Rich Birch — Yep, yes. Stevie Flockhart — …that someone has to know about me. Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — And God just has a way, as you know, and as those who have grown in it know, just this way of disciplining and pruning. Uh, and he’s so kind and gentle, but it just hurts so bad. And so, uh, I just had this void, you know, and I knew Jesus, but I just needed to be known – by you, and by that guy, and that guy. Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — And, uh, and something takes place where, and again, there’s no formula, there’s no magical equation. So please don’t hear that today. But when you start putting your priorities and you get your priorities right, uh, and just being known by God and being known by, you know, listen, if, if, if God loves me, and I know he does, and if my wife loves me, and those three kids love me, all the other stuff, just kind of, just kind of falls to the wayside. It really, really does. And so, when you stop caring about those things, I believe that’s when God really started giving me more. God really started trusting me with more. And so you could go to scripture and say, faithful with the small, he’ll give you more, but, uh, if you’re faithful with what he’s already given you, and I was not for so long, you know? So I would say, uh, and I wouldn’t even say, man, that I was doing it for the wrong reasons. I was just doing it for, uh, other reasons. Man, I was, I wanted to do it for God’s glory. Man, this is for your glory, Lord. Rich Birch — Right, right. Stevie Flockhart — Just give me a little bit, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — And so I’m here to preach so people would be saved. I just want everybody to know how many people have been saved? Are you with me? Rich Birch — Sure. Stevie Flockhart — And so, uh, not until there’s this renewing of the mind… Rich Birch — Sure. Stevie Flockhart — …where God takes me through a season. When I say a season, I don’t mean three months. I wish it was three months. You know, four, or five, six years of just pruning… Rich Birch — Wow. Stevie Flockhart — …cutting off, tearing away, pulling the weeds of my soul out, to bring me to the place where truly this is for his kingdom, not mine. His church, not mine. And I have seen over the last three or four years that when that’s your posture in your heart, cause God can’t be mocked, you know? So that’s why I, when I say there’s no special secret, like you can’t trick God into pretending like it’s not about you. Rich Birch — Sure. Stevie Flockhart — And then he’ll give you more so that you can get more, you know, that God can’t be tricked or mocked. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — Uh, but when you’re truly faithful with what he’s given you, when you understand it’s not about you, it’s about lifting the name of Jesus, I do believe that’s when he starts giving you more influence, uh, and sending more people to you cause you’re not pointing to them to you, pointing them to you anymore. You’re pointing them to Jesus. So that’s what we’ve experienced.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Well, and even your story of like, you had to… there’s so many people would come on a thing like this and they would skip the fact that the first couple things didn’t go well. You know, they would skip that. Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. Sure. Right. Rich Birch — Which is kind of the easy thing to do, right? It’s just like you, you know, you show up and it’s like, we started and things went amazing. And that, that just isn’t the truth, right? Stevie Flockhart — Yep, yep, yep. Rich Birch — So how, how do you, how do you lead outta that place? What’s that look like for you as you lead with your team and with other people around you? How do you cultivate that as a part of, you know, even your, your culture, your, um, yeah, the team you’re, you’re with?Stevie Flockhart — Yep. I love you used the word culture. Uh, you know, we have a culture within our church that’s, uh, so goes the leader, I believe, so goes the people. I believe that. And so our staff, uh, we have a staff culture. One of our staff values is we’re free to fail. And so out of that, there’s this vulnerability, there’s this freedom of failure. We take risk. Uh, now let’s be wise, let’s be good stewards, you know? Let’s don’t go spend $3 million and go, let’s just see if it’s a risk tomorrow. You know what I mean? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — And so there’s wisdom in that. But, uh, uh, looking at my story, if I could go back, and I’ll say this sometimes preaching, I’ll say this sometimes leading on my staff, if I could go back, people would ask, you know, what would you change if you could go back? Rich Birch — Good question. Yeah.Stevie Flockhart — And you immediately wanna say like, I wish I wouldn’t have planted so early. You know? Cause I was this young guy and thought I was the, the greatest thing that ever hit the church world, and they just couldn’t wait. You know? And God just had me to bring me through. I wish I wouldn’t have done that, but I wish we wouldn’t have gone down to South Florida and spared 14 months of literal hell down there, you know? And so, cause I believe then we were ready, but the church wasn’t; they just weren’t ready to change, you know? And they were in their ways. And so, if I could go back, Rich, I’m being honest with you, sure there are moments and times, but if I changed anything, I wouldn’t be who I am today, you know? Rich Birch — That’s good.Stevie Flockhart — And I’m grateful for the journey. And so, uh, the destination, I’ve learned, is oftentimes a mirage. Like, you know, like, just, if I could just get here… once you get here, you want to go there, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — Now there’s health in some of that, you know, but there’s also a lot of dysfunction in, if I could just get here, I’d arrive, I’d be fulfilled, I’d be satisfied. Well, Jesus is really the one that can truly satisfy, you know? Stevie Flockhart — And so the destination really is a mirage. It’s the journey. So enjoy the journey – the successes and the failures. And so where I am today, you’re talking about, you know, unSeminary, what they did not teach me in seminary was how you would feel when you looked at the guy down the road who’s got a whole lot more people coming to your church than you have at your church. Rich Birch — Yes.Stevie Flockhart — What they did not teach you was, you know, cause again, what we’d pray and what we’d want, I mean, we’re getting real on this pod… Like what we [inaudible]… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Stevie Flockhart — …change the city. Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — And I pray that you would bless this church, and this church, and this church. Just bless my church… Rich Birch — …as well. Stevie Flockhart — …a little bit more, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah. Stevie Flockhart — Yeah, yeah. Like, bro, I was jacked up. A little bit more, you know. But even, I guess even the growth, like as well. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Stevie Flockhart — What if God wants to radically change the city. And it’s from the church down the road. And the church up the road, you know? And you gotta be okay with that. And so, uh… Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — I think we all fall into the comparison trap. We all fall into the, uh, feeling worthy, feeling validated. Uh, we all fall into the performance trap, you know? I know for me, uh, that’s just where I was. If I could just perform, if I could just, uh, check off the list, then everybody would see what I’ve accomplished. And somehow I was naive enough, you know, to think that my value and my worth was tied to how many people were coming to my church… Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — …uh, how many people I had on staff, you know? And, and it’s, it’s a lie man. And the devil will ruin your life with it. So. Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — And I lived it.Rich Birch — Love, love it. So one of the things you said there got me thinking about this tension I think we feel where you, we don’t wanna get caught in the comparison trap, and I really appreciate you doing a good job, you know, helping us get inside that. But the other part of this is we wanna learn from other churches. We do want to, it’s not like you can kind of just hide… Stevie Flockhart — Yep. Rich Birch — …in your, you know, under a turtle somewhere. And I know it would appear like, yeah, you’re trying to learn from others, you’re trying to grow from others. Help us understand how does that work? How, how has that impacted your ministry? Is there a nuance between those two?Stevie Flockhart — Yep. I do, uh, believe that. So I would say compare disciplines, compare principles, compare values, uh, compare, uh, uh, less results, and compare journeys, you know? And so this person, I could feel, uh, insecure about that guy, or I could go to that guy and say, how did you get here? You know, what did it take to get, so I could compare marriages and say, man, if my marriage was just… or I could say, how in the world do you and your life, your wife, love each other so much? How in the world do you parent your kids like that? Rich Birch — That’s good. Stevie Flockhart — You know, your kids aren’t perfect, man. How did they get to that point, you know, where you’re releasing them, you’ve given them authority, they’re making their own decisions. You need to compare those things, you know? So could I believe sometimes, and again, we’re talking about the renewing of the mind. This is a healthy person, a spiritually mature, and emotionally secure person asking themselves, wait, how do I get there? Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — And so a lot of times we want what other people have, but we’re not willing to do what other people did to get it, right? You know?Rich Birch — Oh, it’s so true.Stevie Flockhart — So, yeah. And so if we’re living in this, uh, dysfunction of, you know, uh, worthlessness and validation, if I, that’s not a good place to be. Rich Birch — Right. Stevie Flockhart — But if we’re living in this place, like I want to be used greatly by God. I want my marriage to be successful. I want my kids to love the kingdom, and love the church, and not be burnout. How do I accomplish that? We do need to compare disciplines and principles and values to other people. Cause sometimes our disciplines and our principles and our values aren’t lining up to, uh, put us in the place that we’d like to be in. You know? So… Rich Birch — Love it. Stevie Flockhart — I think there’s value in that for sure.Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Um, so one of the things you said, again, going back to one of the things you said earlier, kind of pivoting back to that. Your church obviously has a focus you have a focus on reaching people, people who don’t follow Jesus. You mentioned, you know, 1400 people saved, 700 people baptized. That’s amazing. Praise God. That’s in, that’s incredible. And you know, we know that that’s because God’s at work, right? Stevie Flockhart — Sure. Rich Birch — Ultimately, there’s not some magic that you’re doing, but obviously there’s something as a leadership you’re doing to stay focused on that. What does that look like? How do we keep our churches focused on evangelism?Stevie Flockhart — Yep. Yep. Uh, I mean, culture’s, everything, uh, but you’re pointing people back to mission and vision. And so, uh, our mission statement and, and 901 Church is we exist so that people would be reached and lives would be changed. Uh, it’s our way of saying, we are here so that people would be saved, and disciples would be made. I think we have done ourselves an injustice the last several years, especially in the world of podcasts and everything’s online as social media. We’re debating and fighting, and there’s division within the church, evangelism or discipleship. Oh it’s just a show and entertainment on Sunday to get people there, you know? So it’s like, it’s this weird, uh, reality of like, oh, so obviously if your church is big and has lights and there’s a band, it’s gotta be shallow. Rich Birch — It’s so true.Stevie Flockhart — And obviously if your church is small, and it’s like, it’s must be depth. It’s like, oh, well, goodness. Like, I think we’re missing the point here. We’re focusing on methods and not fo focusing on mission, you know? Rich Birch — So true. Stevie Flockhart — And so we’re here everything we do, man, and so we talk about it in staff, and we pray over this, and we fast over this. And we, uh, we have systems and metrics to make sure that we’re living out our mission. And so, every sermon I preach, every song we sing, every group we have, every recovery conversation, every marriage counseling, every person in the parking lot or serves in students knows, I’m here, priority one, for people that do not yet know Jesus. That’s why I’m here. Rich Birch — Yep. Stevie Flockhart — People reach. But we’re not just gonna stop there. Do I believe it’s the most important thing? I absolutely do. But do I believe it’s the only thing? I don’t, you know? Rich Birch — Yep. Stevie Flockhart — And so now let’s make disciples. Now let’s get cyclical for a moment. I believe, a disciples number one priority is for people that don’t yet know Jesus. You know? Rich Birch – Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — And so, uh, and so again, people reach, lives changed. Everything we do is for people that do not know Jesus. But, now you’re a part of the family. You are in the army, you know. We are not us focused. We will not be inner focused. It is continuing to be people that are not here yet. And our people have grabbed a hold of that, you know? And so they love… Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it. Stevie Flockhart — …and it’s a part of our vision, our mission, and now it is our culture.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. So love that. That’s so good. And one of the common misnomers, and you kind of touched on it there, was, you know, that fast-growing churches are all shallow, that they’re not interested in discipleship. And that my experience in, you know, 10 plus years of studying these, that’s just not true. Stevie Flockhart — Yep, yep. Rich Birch — That actually to be a fast-growing church, you actually have to do both. You have to do discipleship… Stevie Flockhart — Sure. Rich Birch — …as well as evangelism. The words might look different at every church, but you have to do both. Talk us through what that looks like. What does your kind of discipleship process look like? How are you, how are you helping people take steps to Christ? That’s, that’s, you know, all those people that got baptized. What are you doing to help them, uh, grow in those relationships with, with Jesus?Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. And so, I mean, the easy, quick answer would be, you know, we, we push, uh, groups, you know, every single week. You know, we push getting involved on serve teams, you know. Uh, one of the, uh—let me be nice about it—one of the silliest conversations I could have with somebody, is coming to a church, 6, 7, 8 months, they hit the road. Nobody talked to me, nobody loved me. My uncle was in the hospital, whatever, you know, the, the situation is. And unfortunately those things happen. But oh my goodness, we’re so sorry. What group are you in? Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, yeah. Stevie Flockhart — Well, I’m, I’m not in a group yet. What serve team do you serve on? Well, haven’t… I was going to, but it’s like, so you truly, let’s just get real for a moment. You show up on Sunday morning. You are the back of somebody’s head every week. You sing your songs, you hear the sermon, you leave, and you call that like you’re a part of the church? Like, no, you attend a service, you know? It’s gotta go beyond that.Stevie Flockhart — And we talk about this stuff, you know? We, we, the truth sets us free, you know? So we say get on a serve team, it accomplishes so much. You are the hands and feet of Jesus. You’re serving others. But you’re also building community within those, you know. So even‑I get to that to a moment‑we have, uh an apprentice program at our church. Uh, every staff member, every leader has to have two to four people that they are meeting with, uh, at least twice a month where they’re walking… some, some of it’s books, some of it’s scripture memorization, some of it’s both. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Stevie Flockhart — Uh, some of it truly is just real life, uh, uh, you know, walk through, Hey, I’m going through this. I need some help right now. And so it it just looks like a, uh, it looks like the way Jesus did it, you know? He spent a, uh, a ton of time with the three, and then a whole lot of time with 12. You very rarely saw him spending an a ton of time with the crowd, with the people, you know. But he’s the most influential people person of all time. How is this? I think it’s the leadership development and the discipleship development process, you know? So those three men acted like Jesus, thought like Jesus, dealt with conflict like Jesus. And those three men went in, you know, met new people and planted churches. And so again, this, this, this trickle effect, this multiplication effect that takes place, uh, it happens all over the world, but it can happen within our church, and it has to start with discipleship.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Let’s talk about that apprentice thing. I love that. That is that, um, so like, I, you know, I think I heard you say every staff, you know, they have two to four people they meet with at least twice a month. Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. Rich Birch — Is that people that are on your team? Is that people, you know, how, how do you define those relationships? How do you ensure that’s actually expanding beyond, you know, kind of just the, the relationships that might be just in front of them? What does that look like?Stevie Flockhart — Sure, sure, sure. So I do believe in, you know, affinity groups where we’re draw we’re drawn to naturally people who are mm-hmm.  either like us, or have the same age kids, or some of the same hobby, you know, for sure. And so we don’t just say, go find three random people. You know, but it’s people that… Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — …you, you would want to have dinner with, people that you’d want to invest in. Somebody that you would, or a couple that you would say, this is somebody I wouldn’t mind spending a whole lot of time with over the next year or two, you know? And so we’ve just kind of put this into practice. We’ve always, you know, had the multiplication effect for sure.Stevie Flockhart — But, uh, I need to go find three people and three couples. It would be, you know, where I’m spend, I’m golfing with them. I’m meeting with them at Starbucks. We go out to dinner with them every few Fridays where we’re spending the time with them, and we’re talking through, you know, and sometimes it’s as easy as two questions. You know, what is God teaching you right now? What are you doing about it? What is God teaching you right now? What are you doing about it? I mean, those two questions. You could have hours of conversations… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — …with those two questions. Uh, and again, it’s kind of, uh, never ending. It’s open-ended. And so, uh… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — …every staff member has, you know, an apprentice, uh, or they should, you know, every leader, every team lead, every coordinator. And again, we do it, and the language doesn’t matter right now, but you know, there is uh, a flow; there’s a leadership pipeline that we have that every single person are some people are just showing up. Then they move into team members. Well, then those team members can move into leading a team. But then when you recognize and you equip and you pour into, that person can then lead a department, and then you recognize, and you pour into, and you lead and you equip, and then that person can lead, uh, an organization, you know? So lead others, lead leaders, lead departments, lead organizations. And there, there really is a structure and a system, and there’s a way to do this. And I think it’s the Jesus way. Rich Birch — Yes, yep. Stevie Flockhart — And so, uh… Rich Birch — Love it. Some good Mack Lake pipeline stuff there too. He would’ve, uh, he’d be very happy that.Stevie Flockhart — The man, the myth, the legend. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. He’s incredible. Yeah. That’s so good. I love that. And I love the, you know, the simplicity of, you know, hey, let’s gets, get in relational, uh, get in, you know, get a relationship, kind of intentional relationship with some people. And then just some simple questions. You know, what are you learning? What’s Jesus teaching? What are you doing about it? Like, let’s just keep that in front of people. I think, man, just that alone, if we could get our people to do that, man, we’d have a leadership development revolution going on, you know, around us. That’s, uh, you know, that’s, that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — So kind of talking about the, your actual planting experience this time, um, talk us, talk to us about, you know, are you connected with a network? Did you just do this all your own? Did you drop into, you know, your town, you know, and just like open the phone book and start calling people? Talk, talk to us about that. Stevie Flockhart — Wow… Rich Birch — What’s the support around you look like?Stevie Flockhart — Sure. I think that’s some guy’s stories and I salute them… Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — …and I honor them. Oh my goodness. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — But no, we could not have, uh, been where we are done what we did, you know, New Season church in Hiram, Georgia when we first started, um, donated probably $50-, $60,000 worth of AVL sound system… Rich Birch — Yeah that’s great. Wow. Stevie Flockhart — …for sure. But then, uh, a church, uh, and I consider him, my pastor now Pastor Paul Taylor, Rivers Crossing Church, Cincinnati, Ohio. Uh, they just saw something in us, invited us to be, at the time it was called 10 and 10 Network. And, uh, they, I mean, hundreds of thousands of dollars over three or four years. Uh, and what they did for us financially allowed us to bring on support staff, you know, so just going back to that leadership pipeline, yes, you can do it with volunteers, but when you’re able to bring on staff, uh, it’s just a game changer, you know?Stevie Flockhart — So that’s where, again, I can tell somebody like, you know, uh, when you’re faithful in the small, God will bless you. I mean, I started the church. I was the lead pastor and the janitor and the student director… Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — …and the receptionist, you know… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Stevie Flockhart — …and so, and the card note writer to the first time guest, well, then weeks go by. Yes. And you, you know, empower and equip, but they just came in, uh, financially helped us, you know, emotionally helped us. He was a pastor to me. And so I was, uh a part of, uh, the 10 and 10 network for two or three years. We’ve just changed the name. Now I’m on leadership with them, called Extraordinary Church Collective, ECC, again, based outta Cincinnati. But, uh, anybody that wants to plant a church, we’d love to have a conversation with you. But, uh, they, it was a game changer for me. We would not, maybe 901 exists without ’em, maybe, perhaps. No way, we’ve seen 1400 people say, there’s no way I have 20 staff members four years into this. There’s no way we’re looking at location number two right now, being able to renovate it  without them, the mission, the vision behind church planning, uh, and what they want to continue to do. So it’s huge. It’s huge. Rich Birch — Yeah. Stevie Flockhart — Do it without ’em.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. And that, you know, that’s one of the things that we’ve seen, and friends, you probably know this if you’re listening in, but one of the things that you know, is like a definitive, Hey, we’ve, we’ve learned this lesson, you know, when one of the defi, the divider kind of dividing lines between church plants that make it and those that don’t, is that, that the ones that have a network are more likely to make it. They’re more likely to push through. And so, yeah, Extraordinary Church network, that’d be great. Where, if people wanna learn more about them, where do we send them online to learn more about, about that, that group?Stevie Flockhart — Yeah – extraordinarychurchcollective.com – and , uh or Google…Rich Birch — Dot com. Ok, great. Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. And so, Extraordinary Church Collective. Uh, my name, Steven Flockhart… Rich Birch — Perfect. Stevie Flockhart — …pastor Paul Taylor. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah – that’s all good. Yeah. Stevie Flockhart — And again, we’re starting, it’s, it’s a network. It’s a collective though. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Stevie Flockhart — Much different. Maybe some, uh, traditional networks, and, uh, anybody, what you just hit on though, is I think the key to life, it’s community. Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — It’s it, you can’t do it alone. You can’t be isolated. And what you just said, Rich, is so true. A lot of guys are failing and falling because they didn’t have people in their lives to either help them, hold them accountable, or just say, yo, hey, I’ve been there. I’ve done it. Here’s what I believe you should do. And pastors and authorities in your life to say, sometimes not just, Hey, here’s what I think you should do. Here’s what you should do. Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — And here’s what you should not do. Rich Birch — Yes. Stevie Flockhart — Go ahead. You know?Rich Birch — Don’t step on that landmine. Yes, exactly. I have done that. I lost my leg. Don’t do it.Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. Wise council is, so, yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good. That’s so good. Well, when you look to the future, when you look up over the horizon at 901, what’s, what’s on the horizon? Where are you, you know, kind of what are you thinking about next? What are the questions you’re asking as you look down the road?Stevie Flockhart —Yeah. And so, uh, when we planted, we always knew, so even 901 Church, it’s the area code. It’s a brand of where we’re at in Memphis. I mean, the Memphis Grizzlies talk about it all the time. Rise up 901. Justin Timberlake… Rich Birch — Yep. Stevie Flockhart — …Al Green, whatever. I mean, everybody just talks about the 901. And so from the very beginning, our vision behind that was to reach a city to change the world. And so we wanted to be multisite, uh, multiple locations. Uh, God, that’s a long story. I can tell you later off podcast, God gave us a 15,000 square foot building… Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Praise God. Stevie Flockhart — …15 minutes from us right now in the, another city just gave it to us. A church that was struggling, uh, was gonna shut down, sell it, and give the money to missions. They just gave us an almost $2 million property; they just handed to us. Rich Birch — Praise God.Stevie Flockhart — So we’re renovating that right now. So over the horizon is more locations, multiple locations within the 901. People have asked me, it’s like, what happens when God blesses and God does what he does, and you want to continue to church plant. So we’ve planted churches in Scotland and Chattanooga and the Ukraine and Arizona, and a digital church online only right now. But what happens, like, well, are they 901? They’re not in the area code. You know, the brand is messed up. It’s like, well, we’ll reach a city to change the world, you know? And so, uh, uh, multiple locations we want to, raising up leaders, once again. And again, moving people from one location. We’ve got about 200 of our people right now ready, excited, prepared, equipped, uh, raising them up even now to go over to the next location that’ll launch later this year. You can’t just hope to launch a location next week and send some people over there. There’s a process. It’s going back to that pipeline, getting them ready. So, uh, you ask what’s on the horizon, that’s what’s next. But, uh, we do see ourselves in 6, 7, 8, 9 locations over the next 10 or 15 years… Rich Birch — So good. Stevie Flockhart — …within all around the 901.Rich Birch — Wow. This is so great. This has been so fantastic, Stevie. I really appreciate you taking time, uh, you know, to be with us today. Lots of, you know, just, I gotta page your notes here, stuff to think about and chew on. I, I know for sure our listeners do as well. Uh, just as we’re wrapping up, anything else you’d like to say, uh, before we close down today’s conversation?Stevie Flockhart — No, thank you, Rich, for having me. I’m honored. If anybody’s listening, uh, keep Jesus the focus. Not a magazine, not a number. Be faithful with what you have. And he just promises to give us more and more and more. Be a good steward. Uh, let him be, let be trustworthy and let him be able to trust you more. So that’s what I would say to anybody.Rich Birch — So good. That is so good. Uh, where do we wanna send people online if they wanna track with you or with the church?Stevie Flockhart — Yeah. 901church.com. That’s our church, uh, website. But my wife and I also have a podcast called Essentials Podcast. Uh, we just help marriages, uh, parenting, leadership, you know, it’s the essentials of life. So man, anybody that would wanna support that or go there, we’d be very, very grateful.Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, we’ll link to that as well on the show notes. So, thanks so much, Stevie. I appreciate you being here today. Thanks for sharing with us. I really appreciate it.Stevie Flockhart — Thank you, Rich. See you next time.

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Lead Pastor Jeff Cranston with us from LowCountry Community Church in Bluffton, South Carolina. How can churches maintain balance in ministry and create engagement within their congregation and staff? This is a question that Jeff answers in today’s episode of the unSeminary Podcast. Don’t miss this conversation where we talk about focusing on the purposes of the church, teaching systematic theology in an understandable way, and how to increase collaboration and avoid silos in your ministries. Stay balanced. // LowCountry Community Church had been around since the mid-90s, but when they found themselves faltering at one point, they rallied around the five purpose-driven church principles. The five principles LowCountry articulates are to connect people to God and each other, grow in your faith, serve other people and God, reach, and worship. Churches tend to have a stronger leaning in some of these areas than others so focusing on all five can help you stay balanced. Create engagement. // As part of their discipleship process, the church has also implemented core classes that focus on each of these five principles. People who are new to LowCountry are encouraged to first take the Connect class, which consists of attending a Sunday service together, meeting and hearing from the staff, and then sharing lunch. The goal is to have everyone coming out of the Connect class take a next step. LowCountry has found that they have a very high retention rate through this assimilation process. Kitchen Table Theology podcast. // Another aspect of discipleship at LowCountry includes the Kitchen Table Theology podcast. After seeing a rise in biblical illiteracy, including among younger people the church wanted to bring on staff, Jeff realized that most people weren’t familiar with the bible or what Jesus was teaching. Through his podcast, Jeff aims to teach systematic theology in an understandable way, making it accessible to everyone. He says it’s like sitting at a kitchen table, having a cup of coffee, and chatting about theology in a casual way. Remember your mission. // As a church grows, it’s critical to keep the staff aligned and focused on the mission on a regular basis. Talk with your staff to remind them why you’re doing what you’re doing. Stay connected to staff health. // LowCountry has also been intentional the last few years about staff health. They partnered with Best Christian Workplaces to do a survey among the staff which focuses on eight key components. The survey provides some hard numbers so you know exactly how your staff feels about the church environment and culture. While it can be difficult to face what needs to be corrected in the workplace, it gives your staff a voice and is helpful for creating a healthier team environment. Create a culture code. // Another way LowCountry has given the staff a voice is by developing a culture code together. Bringing everyone to the table to craft this document has created engagement, combatted ministry silos, and invited collaboration across different ministry areas, which ultimately benefits the whole church. Once a year the staff walks through the five components, which keeps the staff rowing in the same direction. The five components are courageous pioneers, loyal to one another, work hard and play hard, joyously collaborative, and steadfastly committed to growth. You can learn more about LowCountry Community Church at www.lowcountrycc.org. Plus listen to Kitchen Table Theology with Jeff Cranston, and download LowCountry Community Church’s Culture Code document here. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Super excited for today’s conversation today. We’ve got Jeff Cranston with us. He is at LowCountry Community Church in Bluffton, South Carolina – pumped to have this conversation. For folks that don’t know ah ah, LowCountry started, I believe in 1994; Jeff’s been there 20+ years. He’s the published author of a number of book and also hosts a podcast, so I know he’s going to have good audio, Kitchen Table Theology. Jeff, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Jeff Cranston — Rich, thank you very much. It’s an honor to be on with you today. Rich Birch — Yeah, so honored that you would take time out. Kind of fill out the picture there – tell us about LowCountry Community. Give us a sense of the the church. You know that kind of thing. Jeff Cranston — Yeah, we’re nondenominational, evangelical church started in 1994 um and got off to a pretty good start, and then sort of faltered. And my wife and family, we came in ’99 and it was ah it was really a restart. There there was a great core group of people of about eighty folks with with some good DNA of of caring for people, of ah wanting to reach the community. And so we we just started over again, hit the hit the reset button. And the elders at the time were they they saw the need for it and were patient with me. I was a lot younger then, and but yeah, we’ll be here on ah, we’ll be here in June of this year twenty four years. Rich Birch — That’s great. Jeff Cranston — But it’s just grown very steadily. Um, we we just have plodded along, Rich. There’s never been any real tremendous spikes in attendance. It’s it’s been a steady climb. Ah but yeah I’m a believer in, you know, slow and steady does win the race most of the time. Rich Birch — Absolutely. Jeff Cranston — And it it’s required a lot of patience so, I can assure you. Because there’s a lot of times I wanted to go a whole lot quicker than it did. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. A friend a good friend of mine in Omaha at Stonebridge ah Christian Church there, Mark Chitwood, he jokes that he says, hey our church is the slowest growing church in America ah, they just have been consistently, you know, in a very similar trajectory just every year little bit more. But it’s amazing over that time you see just incredible growth. And I actually think, man, that’s healthier, that’s in some ways easier to manage. Just love that. Rich Birch — So you know, if I understand correctly your church you know when you started you were kind of sub 100, somewhere in that range. Today you’re the church is 2000 plus, somewhere in there. That’s that’s amazing growth to see over that timeframe. I wonder if if we could talk a little bit about that. What, you know, you talk about the church was faltering was a bit of a restart. Maybe rewind the clock a little bit in your brain. What was it that, when you thought, you know, in the restart, what were some of those things that need to be addressed? How did, you know, how did those, you know, how and how does how could that impact us today as we’re thinking about our churches? Jeff Cranston — Yeah, I think the heart of the people they they really wanted to reach out to the community. And we were on Hilton Head Island. The church was originally called The Church at Hilton Head. And for those who don’t know Hilton Head is just off the coast of South Carolina. It’s a it’s ah it’s a high-end destination vacation type place. And it’s ah it’s a pretty difficult place to do ministry. But there were some wonderful people there. And our county—very unusual for the south—our county is around 90 to 91% unchurched… Rich Birch — Wow! Jeff Cranston — …so it’s a target rich environment, if if you want to do church. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — And they wanted to do church a little bit differently and more contemporary, and so we we sort of rallied around the concept of the Purpose Driven Church principles – the five the five principles -because I think it was all there. And and actually the founding verses of the church were Matthew 22:37-39 and Matthew 28 – the great commission. And they happen to also be the the key component verses for Purpose Driven Church. And all we really did with that was take the five purposes and make them our own. But I really do think there’s a there’s a lot of genius in that, and you do see those five purposes in the new testament church. Jeff Cranston — So we we call them connect, and you know just connect people to God with the gospel, connect people to each other. And then grow in your faith, serve other people, serve God. Ah reach—that’s evangelism—and and worship. And we’ve just tried to work those five. And what I found is most churches and most pastors, if you just allow yourself to go into default mode, you automatically fall into one or two, maybe three of those five. Rich Birch — Oh that’s a good insight. Jeff Cranston — But another two or three will sort of be ignored. You you know in the back your mind, we ought to be doing more in evangelism, or we ought to be do be doing more and helping our people to serve, but we never quite get around to it. And so those five things really gently forced us to stay balanced. And all you have to do is just look back at your year and go, okay were were we all grow this year, were was everything geared to grow? Which in my experience, most churches are geared to grow and to worship. Evangelism gets talked about, but it rarely gets done. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — Ah getting people to serve, that’s always an issue. Ah and then connecting people is sometimes an afterthought… Rich Birch — Right, right. Jeff Cranston — …in terms of assimilation and things like that. We we expect people to visit our churches but we we have no expectations of ourselves to follow up with them, and help them plug in. So those 5 things have really helped us to stay focused, on task, balanced, healthy, and healthy things grow. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. It’s just true. Jeff Cranston — I mean it’s just a fact of life. If you’re a plant or a baby, it’s just true. And the same thing’s true in church. Rich Birch — Yeah, so what does that look like? So I love that, first of all. I think that’s you know that’s ah, a really good overview, and and look at you know those five areas. Um, what does that look like from your point of view when how how do you keep the church focused on those five areas. How do you keep your team, and your volunteers, and your programming, and ensure that you’re not off balance, that you’re not, you know… Or or is it okay in some seasons to be kind of more focused on one than the other, but on whole you’re trying to keep to all five? Talk us through that. How do you keep us focused on that? Jeff Cranston — When we were smaller, I tried to find a volunteer champion for each one of those five. Rich Birch — Okay. Jeff Cranston — So okay, your job as ah as a high capacity volunteer is helping new people to connect. I’ll take care of the gospel part, and training people to evangelize and things like that, and we’ll proclaim the gospel from the in our teaching and so forth, but can you help people to to connect to the church? And then somebody else, can you help people to grow in their faith? And um, you know and when I was a solo pastor is helping them do that, then as we grew we staffed specifically for those five purposes. And now that you know we’ve got 30-some on staff now, ah all those areas are are well covered. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — And so that’s how that’s how we have done it. And you know we the things you think are most important and the things you value, you will put your horsepower behind, you will put your finances behind. And and so we we have just done it that way and make sure that the folks who are leading the charge in those areas have have what they need to do it well. And and we we still talk about it 24 years later. We still you know I look back, and my executive Pastor Jason Best and I, we just sometimes joke, man, we’re still here. What we’re still doing is, you know… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — …if you came to our church twenty years ago we were still doing this stuff back then. And like I said, we just plodded along. And it’s, you know, God has gratefully blessed it and and and we’ve stayed fairly healthy throughout. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. You know, I was I was joking with a church leader, friend probably a year ago and and um, you know, he was reflecting on the Church of the Highlands and Growth Track. And was like you know, really excited about their ah, you know their Growth Track thing and and was commenting—this is one of those times when I realized oh I think I’ve been in this for too long—um because he was reflecting on, man, isn’t that just so innovative? And I was like it feels very much like the the Purposes conversation we’ve been having for a long time. Hey maybe we should push people through a series of very clearly defined steps, or you know run the bases, whatever the framework… The framework can change a little bit obviously… Jeff Cranston — Sure. Rich Birch — …ah but I but I love that. Um, what does that look like for you guys? I know you do have kind of classes for each of those, but talk us through at like if if I was a part of the church, what does that experience look like for for someone who’s attending? Jeff Cranston — Well, we we have what we call core classes… Rich Birch — Yeah. Jeff Cranston — …and I’m sure most of the listeners, you know, and their and their ministries have very similar things. So we just we just ask them to come to the Connect class first, and that’s where we share our vision and values. And we do that, um we have three services: 8:30, 10 and 11:30; we offer that at 10am on per… Rich Birch — Every week? Jeff Cranston — Every month. Rich Birch — Most weeks. Every month. Okay. Jeff Cranston — Yeah, except for the summer, and except for December, and you know there’s always… Rich Birch — Yep, sure. Yeah, like 10 times 9, 9, 10 times a year, something like that. Jeff Cranston — Ah yeah, yeah, but we we do keep that one going. And then we we have another core class for grow, reach, serve, and worship. And ah we don’t care what order they take those in. Rich Birch — Okay. Jeff Cranston — But that’s part of our discipleship path ah for for folks. And you know when we when we get a man and what we found something, Rich, just in the last year that’s really been working for… So with the Connect class, they come in at ten o’clock they they go to class together, and we’ll have anywhere between 40 and 100 people in in that Connect class. Then we tell them, and we tell them this all ahead of time via video, we get them to register and and they do it. And then we say okay, we’re going to we’re going to go as the Connect class and go worship together at the 11:30 service. And we thought well they’ll never do that. They walk down there en masse and it’s hysterical because when you walk out, speak, or sing, or whatever, you look over here to the right, here’s all these people sitting there with their name tags on, so you know their Connect class people. Rich Birch — Sure. Jeff Cranston — And then after the service, we take them right back into the other auditorium where they had the class and we feed them lunch. And I speak for about 5 minutes to them because our executive pastor does the class. And then ah my wife and I, and his wife and and her and then we we ask all of our staff to be there for at least the first 15 or 20 minutes to meet folks. So then our goal is to meet every person, every couple there. And we are finding a very, very high retention rate. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — Ah and and people do it. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — They’re giving us from about ten o’clock to one o’clock on a Sunday, which has surprised us. But most of the time we when we talk to them they’ll say, we’ve never experienced this in any of the other churches we’ve been in. Or people that are new to church world or you know new to the faith, they don’t know any different. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff Cranston — They just sort of think it’s expected, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — But that’s been very helpful. And then we those other classes and then there’s other corollaries out of the other other core classes throughout the year in terms of bible studies, or seminars, or conferences, or… And then we we do quarterly worship nights and that’s that’s part of that worship core as as well. Rich Birch — I love that. And you know for folks that are listening in the thing there’s a number of things to pull out there. That this idea of a regular, of clear and obvious step that people should take. You’d be amazed at how many churches don’t have that. Jeff Cranston — Right. Rich Birch — It’s like so I’m kind of new around here, what do I do? And it’s like ah here’s 12 things you could do. Like no, no, no – you you go to Connect class. That’s this that’s the first thing. I also love to and I wanna underline something you said there, you know, how involved your whole team is – the fact that you and your executive pastor, it’s a core part, you know he’s going to teach at it. You’re there to say hi at least at the beginning, which again church, friends, is a church of 2000 people – that’s a big commitment for you. You got lots of stuff to do on on a Sunday. Rich Birch — Ah, and then the fact that you ask your staff, hey at least show up, be here. This is important this is and all of that weight communicates to people, hey you should, you know, be a part of this thing, be a part of this thing. I love that. That’s that’s so good. That’s that’s fantastic. Jeff Cranston — And we we try to get them before they leave that, we we try to get them to commit at some level to a next step. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — It might be to serve as a greeter, because anybody, if you can smile, you can serve as a greeter. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — Now some people can’t smile and we don’t want them to do that. Rich Birch — [laughs] That’s great. Jeff Cranston — But you know we all have those folks in our churches. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Jeff Cranston — Or you know the next the next class which will be offered, you know, the next week, the next core class. Or the next month and so we we do have an assimilation process from from that. It’s not always successful. But it it really is working. We’re seeing some really good benefits from that over the last twelve to fifteen months. You know, because like everybody else, when we were coming out of covid, you had a chance to restart… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — …a lot of things. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — And we we just re… that was one of the things, we just we killed what we were doing before… Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — …and came up with this new idea. And we love it, and people really seem to appreciate it. Rich Birch — Love it. Well pivoting in a little bit of a different direction, I noticed ah you know the Kitchen Table Theology ah podcast. And as a podcaster I know ah, that that’s a big commitment to try to do that. You regularly produce content there and, you know, this is above and beyond content than than your weekend services. Ah why did you start that? Talk us through that. You know, as um as a leader at the church, give us a sense of what what was driving that. Jeff Cranston — I think the last five or ten years, and and I celebrate forty years in ministry in ah next month actually. Rich Birch — Congratulations. Jeff Cranston — It’s hard to believe because I’m only… thank you – I’m I’m only 34 years old. Rich Birch — Yeah, how did that happen? Jeff Cranston — So it’s amazing how that how that happens but… Rich Birch — [laughs] Love it. Jeff Cranston — I’ve I’ve just seen, you know, and it it’s I couldn’t ah I couldn’t ah put hard numbers to it, but I just sensed a growing illiteracy biblically among people in the pew. Non-christians coming to the faith you can understand that. But these are people who’ve been in church for years. Um, can’t tell you the names of the books of the bible. You know one guy said just I said, you know, can you tell me the names of the books of the bible and just interested. And um he just he just holds up his phone, and he says why would I need to memorize it? Well, there’s some things you ought to memorize. Jeff Cranston — And um so as more I got to looking into it, figured out well hey this is really a thing. And then Ligonier Ministries and Lifeway do ah every two years do a state of the State of Theology in the American Church survey that is sickening and and staggering. It’s you know half of almost half of evangelicals—I don’t have the exact percentage in front of me, but it’s in the 40% range—believe Jesus was a good teacher but not God. These are evangelicals. Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeff Cranston — I mean and you go on and on. And I’m like, oh my goodness. So I’d been thinking about doing a podcast for a few years, but I didn’t have a clue. Well here came covid April of 2020. I said, well let’s do it. So we started it then. And I just I was going to try to do 100 podcasts, and just teach systematic theology. And we call it Kitchen Table Theology because I we want to make it understandable and put the theological cookies on the bottom shelf so if you and I were sitting at the kitchen table, having a cup of coffee, and we wanted to talk about the things of God, um, this is the level of conversation we would have. And it’s yeah it it’s taken off a little bit. It’s found a it’s a niche niche audience. But I have I think last year we touched 39 different countries. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s so cool. Jeff Cranston — And yeah and it’s it’s amazing to me. And so we just do something every week. So we’ve taught all of the -ologies, and now right now I’m going through every book of the bible, and giving them a little bit of background, and pulling some of the theological themes out of every book. And we’re having a lot of fun with that. So that’s my little bit of throwing the starfish back into the ocean, you know, the old story? Rich Birch — Okay, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeff Cranston — I I can’t fix everybody’s biblical illiteracy, but I can help some. And so that’s what we’re doing with it. Yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love It. Can you give me a sense of how that’s impacted either the leaders, maybe your staff, maybe you know people in your church? I would imagine this would be a helpful tool for people even at your church. I understand it’s reaching people all over the world. But what’s even the impact locally? Jeff Cranston — I I have people every Sunday literally come up to me and just say, thanks so much for the podcast; I’m enjoying listen to it. I found it a couple of months ago. We went back to the beginning and we’re we’re listening all the way through. That that happens every week and and obviously the majority of our listeners are in our footprint, um or the numbers seem to indicate that. But um I’ve just been stunned by it because they’ve never had um, any sort of theological education. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — And even quite frankly, Rich, a lot of I just started seeing it in young men and women that we were considering to bring on staff. Rich Birch — Right, right. Jeff Cranston — I started, I wrote up about a half of a page, um Bible survey with about 7 questions. You know can you name me the 5 books of the Pentateuch? Can you tell me where the um, the Beatitudes are located in the Bible? Can you… No. Rich Birch — Yeah, not rocket science stuff. Yeah, not… Jeff Cranston — No. Rich Birch — Yeah yeah, yeah. Right. Jeff Cranston — Basic. I was almost embarrassed the first couple times I gave it to them. They couldn’t do it. And I thought, what are we producing… Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston —…here, sending to our churches and they think they’re ready to go into ministry, and they literally don’t know the books of the Bible even. And so you know there’s there’s there’s young ministers you know in in my mind when we started this. It was for laypeople, and maybe people, even in ministry that didn’t have a real solid theological background. And yeah, so we’re very encouraged that it’s it’s helping a lot of people. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. I love the format. I think the length is great. I think your targeting is yeah and I think you’re bang on, obviously you’ve identified an an actual real issue. I think particularly in one of the there’s lots of upsides to the nondenominational movement. I’ve spent most of my time in nondenominational churches. There’s lots of upsides there, but one of the downsides is there isn’t a formal process by which people get like stamped with, yes, this person has some kind of basic level. And although there can be, you know, certain movements that maybe overstress that, there is a danger… Jeff Cranston — Right. Rich Birch — …of understressing that, you know? Jeff Cranston — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — Like ah you know, in some ways it’s like maybe the the pendulum has swung too far. Speaking on the staff side, um, you know, talk me through how, you know, you’ve been in your church for, like you say two decades plus um, you know what have you learned over the years of a lot you know, keeping your staff aligned, keeping keeping them focused, keeping them kind of heading in the same direction. Give me a sense of what that looks like for you at LowCountry. Jeff Cranston — Well, we try to keep the mission in front of ourselves on ah on a regular basis, keeping short accounts, talking with our some of our our our key, you know, staff in terms of pastors and ministry directors. Um, reminding them of, okay here’s you know, hey guys it’s sort of the old Vince Lombardi thing, every at the beginning of so of training camp every year. He’d hold up a football and say this is a football. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — And so a few times a year we kind of go back. Let’s let’s just remember why we’re doing what we’re doing here. You know, it’s to change lives through the message of Jesus Christ. That’s that’s what we’re doing here. And everything we do has to hit hit that some way, shape, or or form. Ah, we’ve been very intentional, Rich, the last few years ah about staff health. And we um, we we partnered with an organization called Best Christian Workplaces which has provided us with a survey. Jeff Cranston — So we survey our staff, now this year will be the third year, on 8 key components. So what’s it like to work on the staff? Do you like working here? It it covers everything from, you know, is is the leadership inspirational to you, to is there a strategy that you think is sustainable and you understand it and you see where you fit into it? To, is there healthy communication sort of top down, but is there also healthy communication between staff members, and so so much more. And it and it gives you some hard numbers and you find out exactly where your staff are at. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — Ah and that can be good and bad. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — You know it can be if you’re insecure as ah, one of the top leaders, this is not the thing for you… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — …I can I can tell you. And so every year I I kind of take a very deep breath, you know, when we when we get the results. But it’s been very encouraging and you you do see where you’ve got a few holes, and you can shore those things up. And just giving them a voice as staff members I think is very helpful. And and in um, working with Tony Morgan and the Unstuck Group, and working with Best Christian Workplaces, we’ve developed our own culture code, and that has you know everybody had a voice in that. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — And we came up with um, five key components of that culture code. And once a year, or sometimes well more than that, we’ll we’ll just walk through that on on staff meetings. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — Hey, let’s just remember… or you know, it happened it happened this past week we were talking about something in staff meeting, I can’t remember. And somebody said well you know what? That’s that really ties into this certain part of our culture code of us being courageous pioneers. That’s one of the things… Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — …we will be courageous pioneers. And so this is a, you know, we’re kind of setting a new course here, and so to hear them connect what we’re doing back to the culture code and vice versa you you know it’s starting. You know it’s it’s it’s landing with them. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Jeff Cranston — And that’s that’s kept everybody I think ah you know, rowing the boat in the same direction. Rich Birch — Yeah that’s so good. Like one of the things, and I’d love to talk a little bit more about the culture code. One of the things that we face as as a church is our, you know, our mission is, you know, is pretty clear. Jesus sets it out, you know, some version of reach more people, grow them in their relationship with Jesus. Like we all have some version of that. But how do we boil that down? What makes what we do unique? And then even more pointedly, how do we ask our staff to act? And so I love this. Rich Birch — You’ve provided us with a copy of ah you know, kind of an overview of the culture code. So you you talked about one of them: we are courageous pioneers. There’s also, we are loyal to one another. We work hard. We play hard. We’re joyously ah, collaborative. And we so we are we are steadfastly committed to growth. I love those and there’s obviously a write up for each one of those. Which of these would you say has the most kind of like edge in the culture, has the most like ooh that actually is pushing us or maybe has a bit of ah, you know, maybe another way to think about it is an area that maybe has a little bit of disagreement, or you know provides the most kind of ah traction for you as you’re as you’re leading? Jeff Cranston — Yeah, great great question. I think the one that is the most challenging and just how it fleshes out is we are joyously collaborative. Rich Birch — Sure, talk about that. Jeff Cranston — Because there are times when we are not joyously collaborative. Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — And there are times you know, just being honest… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeff Cranston — There are times when um, we want to silo. And one of the statements we have on here is we we neither allow nor accept a colleague to be siloed, or soloed. Rich Birch — So good. Jeff Cranston — But there are, you know, sometimes in our ministries we we get rather inward looking in our particular area, and we forget that what we do has an impact on three or four other ministry areas. And then that’s when you start to have some issues. So, having this written out and having everybody… and and they all sign every year in the personnel handbook, this is in there. So they they we ask them to read it every year, sign their name to it. So there’s a commitment at that little biddy level right there. But when we do hit the silos, or when they’re not being collaborative, or if some personalities are rubbing really hard against one another, then we can say hey look we have we look we agreed to this, right? Yeah I know. We we have. Okay, so it’s ah it’s a good place for us to begin those conversations, which has really proven to be helpful. And and and at the end of the day, so far, you know it it works out, and everybody gets back on the same page again. And sometimes an apology is made. Or other times hey you know, um man I didn’t I didn’t realize; I just kind of forgot that that was going to affect A, B and C. Um, yeah, we’ll pull this back and we’ll kind of do a reset, and let let’s let’s work together on this. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. That’s ah, yeah I love that. And again, friends, we’ll we’ll put that in the show notes. I do think it’s a good thing for you to ah to download, to take a look at, to wrestle through. Um you talked a little bit about that you kind of got everybody in on that. Can you tell give us kind of an overview of what that process looked like? How did you actually gather those? How did you narrow it down? Yeah, what did that look like. Jeff Cranston — Oh that’s a that’s a really good question. Rich Birch — Sure. Jeff Cranston — We we got in a room. Um, and we we brought different people in throughout the week, and I think a lot of that was coming with our work with The Unstuck Group with Tony Morgan. And we just started to talk about, well, what’s really… Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — …let’s let’s just boil it down. What’s really important to us as a staff team? What what do we want to be engaged with together, as we do ministry here in this demographic in this footprint at this particular church? And it it came out of the belief, Okay look God has God has meshed all of our lives together to be in this one place at this one time. What is what should that look like? And you know we prayed, we took time, we took months. And then we started to craft some language. And we were just we were starting out by putting keywords on the board. You know collaborative went on the board pretty quickly. Grow growth went on the board pretty quickly. Um, Loyalty went on the board pretty quickly. Jeff Cranston — I remember us spending a half forty five minutes an hour talking about where we finally got on the the word pioneers. We yeah, we had all kind of things. We we knew what we wanted – we couldn’t find the right words. So we started with the key words and then we we built out around that with with a statement, like we work hard and we play hard. And we and I’m thinking quite frankly is is this really one of the things? Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — You know is that really that important? Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — But it it really is. And and our staff survey you know year after year when we survey them, they love working together and they have fun. You know we’re we’re of the mindset to take God extremely seriously, and don’t take ourselves too seriously. Rich Birch — Love it. Jeff Cranston — So we we just we just play together. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Well and and you know that’s why it’s important to get, you know, a number of voices, the right voices around the table. Because sometimes as leaders, you know, it’s like the fish not seeing the water. We’re just in it. We see it and and and… Jeff Cranston — Yeah. Rich Birch — We see it from our perspective and getting other people in the room help us like oh yeah, okay. Because you were just like, isn’t that isn’t that everybody? Isn’t everybody work hard and play hard? No not everybody works hard and plays plays hard. So I love that. That’s so good. Jeff Cranston — Yeah, and we’re all doing all this activity, ministry activity, and I think it’s very healthy to you pull everybody together, hit the pause button and just say why? Rich Birch — Right. Why why are we doing what we’re doing? Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — And if you start to get, well we did this last year. That’s no good anymore. Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — Last year doesn’t work this year. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Jeff Cranston — So let’s just let’s just get back to the why, and get back down to some basics. And um man, you know good things really will pop up out of it. And then they feel that they have a voice and you can see their energies levels rising as they begin to think outside the box a little bit. And ah you know and you you get different people in the room with ministry areas that maybe don’t necessarily work together all the time. And now now here they are collaborating on, you know something that’s affecting all of us in our day-to-day ah ministry. Rich Birch — Love it. Jeff Cranston — So yeah, that that’s been very helpful for us. Rich Birch — So good. Well this been a fantastic conversation. Anything else you’d you’d love to share just as we wrap up today’s episode? Jeff Cranston — Well I I really appreciate the time to be here, and I would just encourage everybody listening if you’re you’re in a ministry of whatever type or kind to just please continue to proclaim the gospel. And never ever allow church work to get you away from the gospel. And let’s go back to the keep the main thing the main thing. Everything everything else has to be an outgrowth of the gospel. Rich Birch — So good. Jeff Cranston — And you know we we get ourselves into trouble when we get away from that. And I think in this day and age, ah the American Church has drifted so much more toward experience on a Sunday, you know? And people walking out, well did you like the service? Rich Birch — Right. Jeff Cranston — You know, we’re um I don’t get a soapbox but you know what you know what I mean? You’re not here to like the service. Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Jeff Cranston — You know we’re here to worship the true and living God… Rich Birch — Sure. Yes. Jeff Cranston — …and to sit under the teaching of the word and and and worship and sing and all of that. But we’ve we’ve become so experience-oriented and I think it’s caused that drift away from doctrinal truth and all that. And there can be a really wonderful beautiful marriage of the two, but my my encouragement would be let’s stick to the gospel. Rich Birch — Love it. So good, brother. Appreciate it, Jeff. What would what else would you or if we want to send people to a place online to track with you, with the church, give them the various addresses, where can they find the podcast as well for folks that want to, you know, tune into that. Give us some of the places we want to send people online who want to track with you. Jeff Cranston — Sure, thank you. Um Kitchen Table Theology. Anywhere you listen to podcast you’ll find Kitchen Table Theology with Jeff Cranston is what it says. And then our church is lowcountrycc, lowcountrycc.org. Rich Birch — Love it. Jeff Cranston — You can also go to jeffcranston.com and ah you can find all this stuff somewhere among those three that we’ve been talking about, yeah. Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much. Jeff, I really appreciate you being here today. I thank you so much for your help and, yeah, appreciate be on the show. Jeff Cranston — Thank you, Rich. It’s been a delight.

Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lead Pastor Trevor DeVage from Pantano Christian Church in Arizona, one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Is your church in a season of growth, needing to streamline its ministries? Or are you trying to simplify your systems so that they will be more scaleable? Listen in as Trevor talks about how simplifying your focus to what aligns with your mission can provide the momentum your church needs to grow. Gaining momentum. // Pantano Christian Church has a rich history spanning over 60 years, and Trevor is the ninth lead pastor of the church. While the church has been a prevailing force for decades, with the last decade being particularly fruitful in terms of growth and evangelism, Trevor observed that they needed to identify what was leading to their growth. Knowing why you have momentum is the fastest way to catch the next wave of momentum, and Pantano wanted to be more intentional about their growth. Set a metric for growth. // Pantano’s leadership began by setting a metric for growth so they had goals to work towards. In the summer of 2022 Pantano was averaging about 3400 people, but they believed God wanted to help them reach 8000 people in the Tuscon area between August 2022 and December 2023. However, do to that and maintain the level of excellence they were known for, they knew they would need to eliminate some of the things they were doing as a church. Simplify your ministry. // Pantano’s staff put together a spreadsheet of everything their ministries were doing. In anticipation of growth, the staff then worked to eliminate anything that wasn’t working or didn’t align with the mission of the church. Removing programs and simplifying structures allowed the church to make their systems scaleable. For example, the discipleship pathway was simplified from being a 42-week program to being a 10-week program that uses Rooted. That change alone enabled the church to put almost 1000 people through Rooted in the last 12 months. Do less to reach more. // Having seen growth in every area from baptisms to kids ministry to weekend attendance, Trevor is keenly aware that the staff needs to continue to evaluate what needs to be simplified in their ministry so they don’t burn out. Every three months the staff does check-ins to see if anything is out of alignment with the church’s mission. At every growth point identify what else could be removed that no longer fits at your church. Simplify evangelism. // Evangelism was already a big part of Pantano’s DNA and Trevor and his team further enhanced that by giving their people the simple vision of reaching one person at a time. In the US, it’s tempting to turn evangelism into a program rather than something we naturally do as Christ followers. But Pantano simply empowers their people to be able to tell their stories well, and encourages them weekly to think about their one person and earn the right to be invited into their life. These stories of redemption are then regularly celebrated during weekend services. Lead the process. // Trevor admits that simplification is the hardest thing the church has had to do, but it’s had a tremendous impact on the effectiveness of the ministry. Lead pastors need to embrace simplification and drive the process, rather than expecting the staff team to do it. By simplifying the vision and owning it, you will model it to your staff in return. You can find more about Pantano Christian Church at www.pantano.church and connect with Trevor on social media @trevordevage. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well hey, everybody welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited that you have decided to tune in today. You know every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire, equip you, motivate you, point you in ah in a new direction, and today is no exception. I am super excited to have Trevor DeVage with us. He is from Pantano Christian Church – they’re in Tucson, Arizona. They started in 1961, but today they’re one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Ah, it’s it’s launched four church plants in Southern Arizona and they’ve really started thousands of church literally globally. And Trevor joined here in 2022. Trevor, welcome to the show. Glad you’re here. Trevor DeVage — Well man, it’s good to be on. Thanks for having me. Um, it’s it’s gonna be fun. Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m really looking forward to this. We were joking ahead of time we have some common friends. It’s always fun to interact with people who are like know each other, and know each other’s friends, which is great. So why don’t you tell us, kind of fill in the Pantano story, kind of what did I miss there? People who show up this weekend, what would they experience, give us a sense of that. Trevor DeVage — Yeah, so you’re absolutely right. We just celebrated 60 years um last last year. Actually a year ago this week we celebrated 60 years and ah and so this church has got a very rich history. We’ve um I’m actually the ninth lead pastor of this church. And so um, over 60 years that’s ah, I think that’s a pretty good pattern. In fact, um, the the last really the last 25 really last 35 years, that’s been 3 guys. Um, there was a guy named Ed Towne who, man, was just visionary for Tucson, visionary for the church. Um Ed Towne was actually killed in a car accident here in Tucson um, as the church was kind of growing. And they they really thought you know the the leaders of the church thought, man, we we may be done because Ed was, they were kind of at that critical growth point as a church. And um, that’s hard. You lose a pastor in an accident. Trevor DeVage — And ah, then this guy named Tim Coop came in who’s pretty much a legend on the and the west coast especially, but Arizona. You you say the name Tim Coop out here and everyone’s like oh Tim Coop. Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — And it was really the visionary that that made Pantano a church that was going to be more than just a neighborhood church. It was going to be a church that was gonna pretty much just storming the gates of hell here in Tucson. And they moved the property we’re on now, and then um Tim had this, like like most guys will, we’re all interim pastors by the way… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Trevor DeVage — …that’s that’s Glen says my predecessor where some of us are in arms for 30 years; some are for three weeks, you know, but… Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — Um, ah that was when Glen Elliott, who was the executive pastor at the time, um Tim went to him and was like, man I I think you need to lead this thing, and I’m ready to retire. And Glen had never been a lead pastor. And Glen was like and a missionary in Ukraine, he’d been a pastor in Cincinnati but he’d never been lead pastor. And he stepped into that role and Glen built an unbelievable church over the last 22 years. Trevor DeVage — And so I’m standing on the shoulders of an unbelievable legacy, that I look around our church right now and I’m like, why do I get to be a part of this? Like it’s it it’s like there’s Mount Rushmore and then they put like Homer Simpson on the side. You know what it feels in a little bit. Rich Birch — [laughs] Ah, come on man, come on that… yeah, love that. I hear what you’re saying. Well I love that you’re taking time to honor, you know, the the legacy the leaders that have come before you. That’s that’s such an important thing, particularly, you know, with a historic church like yours it’s been around, you know, historic. I was just in I spent a bunch of time in in England in the last ah you know last six months… Trevor DeVage — And we’re not historic. Rich Birch — I know and I it was such a different perspective. One of the churches I was interacting with there, they’ve been on that site for 1000 years. There’s been a church on that one one… Trevor DeVage — Wow. Rich Birch — …which is crazy. It’s crazy. But anyways, ah you know, but something has changed in the last few years, you know. Pantano really seeing ah you know some incredible growth, and I’d love to kind of dig into that. Why don’t you kind of take us back ah, kind of pre- that growth. Give us a sense of the church and then let’s talk through what’s what’s gone on these last few years. Trevor DeVage — Yeah, well Pantano’s history even… I hate that we have to talk in like PC and and AC, right? Pre-covid, post-covid or after covid. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, it’s helpful though. Trevor DeVage — It is helpful, but pre-covid I mean Pantano’s been a prevailing church for decades. Um. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Trevor DeVage — The last decade in particular I mean Pantano was pre-covid, man, this church was going and blowing, man. They were baptizing people, they were they were growing, adding services, adding adding seats, ah the whole deal, right? And then of course the the great shutdown of the world happened and everything kind of came to a halt. Um, the word we all hate around here. Our team hates this word but it’s a reality. Everybody had to pivot. Um, which I think I think of a friend… Rich Birch — Oh yes, if I hear that one more time… Trevor DeVage — Yeah, ah, the only time I wanna hear it now is Ross screaming it on Friends, right? Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. Exactly. Trevor DeVage — Um, but coming out of covid, so Glen decided in the middle of the pandemic I think it’s time for me to step aside. And Glen Glen has got a lot of like he’s got a lot left in the tank like he didn’t have to retire. Um and he actually he would he would even say he didn’t retire, he just kind of reallocated his his time. But coming out of that, um we were we were coming out of a pretty hard season in Ohio. Glenn and I had been friends for for quite some time. And ah I thought Glen already retired and so he he calls me in the midst of us kind of going through our hell on earth and he was like wait, you’re available? And I was like, apparently. And he was like, I wanted you like two years ago; I just didn’t think you were movable. And I was like, oh, okay. Um, well why didn’t you call me two years ago; that might have saved me a little bit pain. Trevor DeVage — But um, here we here we are, and we step into this and here’s what drew me to Tucson. One that three hundred and so fifty days of sunshine doesn’t hurt. But um, what drew me to here was that this is a church that um they are massively aggressive at evangelizing the community around them. And so Glen’s heartbeat was evangelism. My heartbeat is evangelism. I’m way better with lost people than I am a church people. And so um, I’ve just always had… Rich Birch — What does that look like? What is that massively… how how did you would diagnose like, okay this this church is massively – that’s huge word, massively aggressive at evangelism. What are some of the things that have happened in the past that [inaudible] towards that. Trevor DeVage — Well, well even just the like something simple, because service, right? Service is huge. Rich Birch — Yep. Trevor DeVage — So I say something simple, but my first weekend on site, we do a thing called Serve Our City where we shut down our church for a weekend. And we we sent like 1700 people into our community to serve for a Sunday. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — And people are like well and now church people, they always, like pastors, are like well what do you do about offering? Rich Birch — [laughs] Trevor DeVage — I’m like I’m like it’s… Rich Birch — No, I’m sure the listeners on this show don’t they’re not really that was not their first concern. Trevor DeVage — Yeah, yeah, yeah, not at all. Ah, but I mean expressly coming out of covid where budgets are… Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah. Trevor DeVage — Um, but what we found, I mean 70 so I got to be secret shopper for one day here. because I’d been hired and nobody knew it. Rich Birch — Right. Okay. Fun. Trevor DeVage — So I got to go to all these locations and none of these people knew me. So it was like undercover boss, you know? Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — And so I go to all these sites around town. And what I found was as I was talking to people, the reason they’re a part of Pantano is because Pantano cares more about the community than it does about itself. Rich Birch — Oh so good. Trevor DeVage — And and so I was like, okay this is my heartbeat; this is who we are. Um, and so all the DNA of Pantano, like all the undergirding of evangelism and the verbiage was all there. Um I think covid just kind of put everything on a halt. And so um, we as I came in, you know, Glen on purpose here’s what’s beautiful about Glen and I’s transition: Glen on purpose didn’t start any new initiatives two years before he retired. The only thing he did was remodel our auditorium, which I’m so thankful today because in the old auditorium we would have been out of space six months ago. Now we’re out of space right now. But that’s the only thing he did. He didn’t, no new visionary initiatives. No new like church plant initiatives, multisite, none of that. He was like I wanted the people to be so primed to go when you got here that when you hit the ground, they could just catapult. And and so literally we just infused like this B12 shot of Glen’s excitement about what we were doing, my excitement coming in the door, and ah man it just it’s catapulted in the last really the last eighteen months. We have… Rich Birch — Love it. Trevor DeVage — Here’s here’s what’s crazy: I mean just the number of people that have given their life to Jesus in this place in the last eighteen months. We just this weekend coming up, we will we will surpass 700 baptisms since January of 22. So… Rich Birch — Wow! That’s amazing! Trevor DeVage — Yeah, so last year we had 412 last year where it ah we’ll we’ll go over over 295 for this year this weekend that we’ve got. Um easter was our our highest baptisms ever on a Sunday; we had 145 baptisms Easter Sunday… Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing. Trevor DeVage — It was really just God. And it was really really cool because I had Glen and our executive pastor, Roger, doing the baptisms on Easter, and ah—which Glen’s still around; he’s volunteers. He’s a rock star—um, and so he told me before Easter he goes, our our record for one day was 99 baptisms. I said when we get to a hundred I want Glen to get the hundredth baptism and so. Rich Birch — Oh so sweet. Trevor DeVage — That that he baptized the hundredth, and he baptized the one hundred and forty fifth, which was really cool. Um, but to see his excitement is the guy that is, you know, you want your predecessor to be proud of what’s going on here. He has just been massively supportive of the growth that is happening; he’s this is why we did what we did is because this next wave. So the last year we’re we’re up about 15- to 1800 people over this time last year. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — Um, and I wish I could tell you, man, we’re just brilliant strategists. Um, and I really it come back to something you and I’ve been talking about as just simplicity, is what we’ve really dove into. Rich Birch — Yes. Love it. Well so ah, well first of all I love all that context. That is so good. And what an amazing um, you know that fact that you’ve, you know, baptized or you’re cross over 700 baptisms since the beginning of last year, that’s that’s just amazing. That’s that’s incredible. Well I’d love to hear about that simplicity piece. So what, you know, what are some of the ways that you’ve simplified? And has that been how much of that was response to growth, because you know as things start to scale it’s like, gosh we’ve got to get simpler because we just can’t keep all this complexity. Or was it proactive like, hey, let’s try to you know pull some of these things out? Trevor DeVage — Well, it started off as proactive because when I came in the door I hit the ground full time June of last year but I was flying back and forth from January to June, so I was here twelve days a month for like six months. Rich Birch — Ok. Trevor DeVage — In that six months I did a lot of just reconnaissance. I was listening a lot to our team. I was listening a lot to our church. And I was watching, without us doing any strategy really that first six months, I was watching our church like hit these waves. I think I can’t remember… I’m going to give Rick Warren credit because that’s who I heard say it. He…or and maybe it was Andy Stanley… Rich Birch — He’s a good guy to give, either of those guys are good guys to give credit to. Trevor DeVage — Um, you know just I’ll give them credit. Um, it’s not mine I can tell you that. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — Um, but the the whole if you know having momentum and not knowing why you have momentum is the fastest way to lose momentum. Um, but momentum and knowing why you have momentum is a fastest way to catch the next wave of momentum. And so. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Trevor DeVage — Um, we just saw these waves the first six months. One was I got hired and so there was this energy that came with that. And then there was um, there was Easter and I I tried to get Glen to preach that last Easter, and he was like this is not my last Easter, it’s you’re first. And I I fought him on it. I was like, no bro I want you to. I was like, as the new lead pastor I’m telling you you’re preaching Easter. He goes [inaudible] I got news for you, as the outgoing lead pastor I’m telling you I’m not. And but he I’m doing that to solidify your leadership, he goes because that Sunday will solidify for the community your leadership. And it was brilliant. He was right. Rich Birch — Ah, that’s glorious like. Trevor DeVage — And then we rode that Easter wave into the sixtieth celebration, and the Glen sendoff, and we moved here in June. So there was just all these waves. So when I finally got on the ground full time, I looked at we did a lead team retreat. We got away for two days and I just told our team I said growth growth is already happening and we’ve done nothing, except ride waves. Trevor DeVage — Um, I said so if we get strategic so we got away for two days. I said I need to know what is… we got to set a metric of growth. And I know sometimes in the church we start talking numbers and everyone’s like oh all you care about is numbers. There’s an entire book of the bible called Numbers. Somebody cares about Numbers. Um. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Trevor DeVage — Somebody made a count in the book of Acts for the amount of people that showed up on the day of Pentecost. All these lives matter to us. We live in the twelfth largest unchurched city in America, in Tucson. So out of a million people in Pima County, Arizona um, 850,000 don’t know Jesus. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — And and they’re not antagonistic towards the gospel. They just don’t know. Rich Birch —Right. Trevor DeVage — So it’s not like a Portland; it’s not like a San Francisco. They just don’t know what they don’t know. And so I said to our team, I said, we need to set a metric for December of 2023—this was August of last year. December is coming really quick now that that I… Rich Birch — It sounded like a long ways away. Trevor DeVage — It sounded like a long way away for vision back in August. Um, and so we came back two months later, and I’m sitting in a leadership team meeting with our team. and I I just I looked at our team I said, all right, I wanted I had a number in my head of what our growth would look like. And I thought it was a good number. And I thought it was a Godly number. And I thought it was a big number. And and then I looked at one of my lead team members and he looked at me—and keep in mind we were running like 34- 3300 right at that moment—and he looks at me, probably one of the most Godly men on our staff, and he looks at me and he goes, I’ve been praying about it and God told me I think 8000 is what we’re going to reach in 2023. Rich Birch — What?! Oh my goodness. Trevor DeVage — And now my face said, man, that’s cool. Inside my head I was like, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. I’m I’m literally like, I’m looking at trying to be as kind with my eyes as possible; in my head I’m like, you’re an idiot. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Trevor DeVage — Like that’s I would use you might as well said a gajillion, like that’s that’s what it sounded like. The next guy at the table goes, oh my gosh I was praying and I got the same thing. And I’m now… Rich Birch — What… Trevor DeVage — I’m like I’m looking at both of them like I’ve got two morons on my staff. That’s that’s literally what’s going through my head. I’m like they’ve lost their mind. Rich Birch — Two open roles as… Trevor DeVage — Yeah, [inaudible] they’ve been in the parking lot doing drugs? Like what happened? And I start to look around the table and there’s about 15 people on our lead team and nobody seems like baffled by this. They’re all like, yeah that sounds about right. And I’m like so I had elders meeting that night. I go to the elders I’m like they’ll speak reason into this, right? Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — I’m like I’ll go to my board. They’ll speak reason. So I primed them too. I was like, guys I got tell you this crazy thing that our staff just said today. And I’m setting them up for like they’re gonna take my side. They’re gonna be in and I told ‘em I was like, our staff said we’re gonna, basically we’re gonna double in eighteen months. and ah I was waiting for it and they were like, oh yeah, that sounds about right. Rich Birch — [laughs] Trevor DeVage — And I just in my head I was like, I have moved my family to the land of delusion. Like these people… Rich Birch — What is in the water? What is in the water in Tucson? Trevor DeVage — [inaudible] off the mountain, like apparently they didn’t purify their water. Like I’ve seen Naked and Afraid, and I’m afraid right now, like I’m afraid. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Trevor DeVage — And ah so I literally I’m on my back porch two days later and I’m praying. And God literally, if I’ve ever, I don’t hear God audibly speak. Like if it it’s James Earl Jones or Morgan Freeman, right? And and what what I’ve distinctly got is I’m sitting on my patio one morning, is God God literally spok into my soul like, why are you the only one on the team that’s putting limits on me? Rich Birch — Oh wow. Trevor DeVage — And I I was like all right, I’ll shut up now. Rich Birch — Okay. Trevor DeVage — It feels like Job, you know? All right, I’ll shut up. I’ve already said… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Oh man. Wow. Trevor DeVage — So that started the process, if we’re going to reach 8000 people in eighteen months, um we can’t keep doing everything that we’re doing because Pantano has a history, if you ask anybody in our town anybody in church world in our city, Pantano is known for excellence at all things. Trevor DeVage — So you walk in everything will be done with the utmost of excellence. And so, I told all of our teams I said I need you—so this is where the process started in September of last year—I said I need you to put on a spreadsheet everything your ministry does. Rich Birch — Okay, okay. Right. Trevor DeVage — So ah if you look at just one ministry, it’s like okay they do a lot. But when you look at all ministries, I mean it was pages of stuff. Rich Birch — Wow. Right. Trevor DeVage — And and I just told them I said, if we’re going to even get to 5000, you’ve got to cut some stuff out of this. And I said it’s not eliminating bad things, we should stop doing whatever doesn’t fit. Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — But if it doesn’t fit the mission of what we’re trying to accomplish, there’s things we love that we need to stop doing. And I said, this gonna be hard because you guys have some babies that you love in that list… Rich Birch — So true. Trevor DeVage — …that you’re going to have to get rid of. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — You know it’s like you get the puppy that you get attached to and then it grows and you’re like, oh now we got give the dog away. Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — Well there was a lot of puppies in that list that we were gonna have to give away. And so our our team went through this hard task of, from basically September to October of last year, of eliminating. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — And and it wasn’t elimination nearly as much as it was, what do we what are we gonna do that meets our mission which will help us determine what we say no to. And Rich Birch — Okay. Trevor DeVage — And I I told our team I said, you can make anything fit. Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — You can you like I can we got basket weaving for Jesus; I can make that fit, right? Rich Birch — Yes, yeah. Trevor DeVage — We don’t have basket weaving. Rich Birch — I can tell that story. Trevor DeVage — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — So help me understand that was what I… just to drill down on that kind of one layer deeper… Well first of all I love that. I love even just the the task of asking our teams to get it all into one place, like let’s get it all into one document. I think that alone is an eye-opening you know, experience for folks. Give me a sense of some of those things, maybe like easy cuts that were like of course of course that just makes sense, like basket weaving for Jesus, ah, you know. Or ones that maybe were a little tougher, things that were like, ooh I’m not sure that that feels a little bit more close to the bone. Can you just sense the kinds of things that started to bubble out? Trevor DeVage — Ah, well I’ll use our discipleship department. Um, and ah Cindy who oversees our discipleship department, our Discipleship Pastor, she’s fantastic. Been here a long time. Um, we had we had three we had a pathway discipleship pathway, but it was 42 weeks. Rich Birch — Okay. Trevor DeVage — You would have to go through um discovering faith. Um, you would have to go through, um I’m trying to remember – there was three legs to this. And then we started Rooted. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — Um and I looked at that and I just went I said, Cindy, I said, we’re asking people, we’re trying to get people to know Jesus faster. But then we we get them in a discipleship pipeline and we’re saying but it’s going to take you 42 weeks before we deem you a mature enough disciple to do anything. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — And and she was like, okay. I said and I I told her I said, I’ll let you run this course till till December, and in January will reevaluate. She came back to me in October and goes, I can’t wait till January. She goes, I see where we’re going; I see what it’s gonna take. We’ve got to go all in with Rooted. So she moved these two other pieces into into just electives for people. So our disciples pathway went from 42 weeks to ah to ten weeks. Rich Birch — Oh wow; that’s a huge cut. Trevor DeVage — Ah and and so when you expedite by 3 years, that that expedites your church by 3 years. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Trevor DeVage — Um and and actually it expedites it faster because now in the last in the last year we’ve put almost a thousand people through Rooted. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — And and so um, the only 2 things we talk about here at Panano, you’ll hear it if you are ever to listen or watch, is we talk about Rooted – sign up for Rooted, get in Rooted, we celebrate Rooted, we talk about Rooted. Um and we talk about inviting your one to church. And actually we don’t talk about inviting them to church, we talk about inviting them into your life first. Earn the right to invite—that’s kind of our phrase—earn the right to invite to church. But the only way you earn the right to invite is invite yourself into their life first. And our people have grabbed the one, like that’s it’s not new um, but it was in our DNA. So I just grabbed low-hanging fruit of we got to stop doing, we’ve gotta focus. Um and really Rooted and One, but that came from Cindy cutting a whole bunch of stuff… Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Trevor DeVage — …um that she loved, that she started, but she was like, alright I’m good; I see the vision. Let’s go. And ah… Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — …I mean same thing across the board: kids, students, ah our production, worship and arts team. We’ve got a cafe that feeds couple thousand people a weekend on site. Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — And ah, they’ve had to get more simplistic. Even our even our engagement pathway, like Starting Point, Discover Pantano, Launching Point, um, even we even shifted our mission statement, we didn’t shift it, it was our mission statement, we just leaned into it. We don’t have volunteers here anymore. Um, so a little shift of verbiage for our people, our our mission statement is loving people to Jesus, launching passionate difference-makers. Rich Birch — Love it. Trevor DeVage — We we got up in a series called Difference Makers and said we don’t, we thank you for volunteer; we don’t want volunteers at Pantano anymore. We want difference makers. Rich Birch — Love it. Trevor DeVage — Um, and so we we got rid of volunteers. But we were like, everybody can make a difference. And we want you to make a difference in your community, make a difference in your church, make a difference in your family, make a difference in your work, make a difference in your school. Trevor DeVage — And and so those things, man, just the simplicity of that… Here’s what’s crazy: so we we get to Easter, right at 9000 people for Easter… Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — …um, and then post Easter I thought okay we’ll settle in; we were averaging about 4700 before Easter. I thought okay we’ll be about 5000 after Easter. well we went from 4700 to 5700 in a week. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Trevor DeVage — And and so now we’ve been we’ve kind of blown through that that 5000 barrier. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — And three weeks ago I sat down with our team and I went, remember what we did last summer? Um, we’re gonna do it again. Rich Birch — Okay. Trevor DeVage — Um, because if we’re going to go from now almost 6000 to 8000 by December, we can’t do everything we’re doing right now to get to 8000. Rich Birch — Oh love that. Trevor DeVage — You guys will be burning out, your team will go… So we’re constantly now evaluating at every growth point. We do three month check-ins. We have a document. It’s called the “smells like smoke” document, which comes from… Rich Birch — [laughs] Trevor DeVage — It comes from Jude 23, my favorite scripture: rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — Um, and we say if you’re if you’re going to help people see Jesus, you gotta get close enough to the pits of hell to get them out. So you better you better smell like smoke. And um and so we we have this document so we just checked the metrics the other day, it was um that we set last year… Average 4500 by Easter; well, we did that. Um it was run um, over over 700 people through Rooted. We did that. Um our student ministry has gone from 50 kids on Wednesday night to 225 kids on Wednesday night. Rich Birch — Wow. Trevor DeVage — Our our kids ministry’s gone from 200 kids to almost 450 kids. Like all of these things… Rich Birch — Love it. Trevor DeVage — …everything’s up and to the right. Now we also understand there’s a lot of excitement when growth is happening. Rich Birch — Sure. Trevor DeVage — Um I’m I’m actually praying for those plateau moments so we can breathe. Rich Birch — Yeah, take a deep breath. Trevor DeVage — Right, to plan for the next wave. Um, but now what happened is we’re out of parking. We have no parking. Rich Birch — Okay. Trevor DeVage — We can grow in our auditorium, but we can’t park anybody. So. Rich Birch — Yeah. Trevor DeVage — Um, now we’re adding we’re going to go to 3 services in and July, um in an auditorium that can see just over 1800 we’re we’re out of space in 2 services. So our online ministry is growing. We planted a microsite in ah in a Mission here in town. We’re going to launch a couple more of those this year, but we’ve got to add a third service because God’s God’s bringing people. Rich Birch — Yep. Trevor DeVage — Um, but it all goes back to simplicity, man. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Trevor DeVage — Like it it just do less to reach more. That’s what we constantly say… Rich Birch — I love that. So this… Trevor DeVage — …do less to reach more. Rich Birch — I just think that’s so good. So much in there to unpack. I love um I want to come back to the invite culture stuff in um, in a minute. I want to ask kind of get your thoughts on how you’re cultivating that with your people. But on the opposite end of of um, what I hear you saying is, we need to simplify so that we’ve got the energy, the resources, the focus, the the ability, to move people um, you know when things are simpler. I love that. That’s a very vivid example: forty two weeks to ten weeks. We’ve talked about Rooted a bunch of times on the podcast; we had Erin Smith or sorry um Erin Kerr on a couple years ago ah, from Mariners talking about Rooted, and many people have have many churches have talked about a similar kind of experience. Fantastic. Rich Birch — What what have has there been anything in the last eighteen months that you’ve added, or the church has added, because of this extra the extra cycles that you think is also helping you that are… Are there new behaviors? There may not be but I wondered if there’s any new behaviors, new systems, new pieces of the puzzle that you think you might be using? Trevor DeVage — You know that’s an interesting question. I haven’t even thought of that. Um we because we we didn’t really add anything… Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — …we just enhanced what we already here. Um I just begin to look at the DNA of our church… Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — …because I still get 30,000 foot view – I’m getting closer I’m I’m starting to get closer to the ground. Um but I still have the perspective and so here here’s what I knew about Glen, Glen was a systems builder. Glen was a strategist. Um, he was great at strat-ops. He like all of so none of our systems were broken. Nothing was broken at Pantano when I got here. So all I had to do was turn dials to fit my personality and my leadership. Rich Birch — Sure. Trevor DeVage — And and so um, not I wouldn’t say we’ve added, I’d say what has shifted in our culture is we have focused so hard on the One. Um, it’s literally our DNA every weekend. You’ll hear it every weekend. We mention every message has something that leads back to the One. And ah our people, this is again southwest versus Midwest. I came to the midwest to the southwest. Trevor DeVage — I Really thought I would be fighting battles here. I don’t fight. Um the battles I fight are church people that want to move too quickly. Um, in the Midwest I fought church people that didn’t know what quick was. Rich Birch — Okay, okay, interesting. Trevor DeVage — Um and so you know I’m saying? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Trevor DeVage — Like our people are clamoring, like just give us vision to go after. And and we’ve given them just a simple vision: one person at a time. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Trevor DeVage — And so now on our baptism Sundays backstage people are like, this is my One, this is my One, this is my One. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. Trevor DeVage — It’s just in verbiage. Um I don’t I don’t know that we’ve added anything; I think we’ve enhanced is what we’ve done. Rich Birch — Enhanced. Yeah that makes sense. More focus, more energy, taking the energy from other things and said hey… Yeah like even that 42 to ten weeks example, obviously those ten weeks um you know, you’ve got more time, she’s got more time to focus on that to make that and even better experience – that makes total sense. Rich Birch — Talk to me more about the invite culture thing. I love… you kind of tip to hitting it there – the one, the one, the one. Talk us through, from your perspective as a lead pastor, you know we see this in fast-growing churches. You know the difference between plateaued—one of my core convictions is—plateaued, stuck, declining churches and growing churches is growing churches training, equip, mobilize, motivate, there are people to invite their friends, and you’re clearly doing that. Talk us through what that looks like from your seat, from you know the things that you’re doing as a church. Trevor DeVage — Yeah, well I think first of all, it’s like we simplify to amplify. Rich Birch — Yep. Trevor DeVage — So what we simplify is what gets amplified. Rich Birch — Yep. Trevor DeVage — So what we have simplified as evangelism. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — And we’ve made I think traditionally in the church, at least in America, we have made we’ve made evangelism a program. And evangelism is not a program; evangelism is what we are called to be as Christ followers. So the great commission says go and make, not sit and take. We have just leaned into our our culture of our people. Um I’ve told ‘em, I’m like, if you want a church to sit and and take from, you want to just get fat off the church spiritually this is not the church for you. Trevor DeVage — We love you. We’ll we’ll help you find a church. Um, but this is a mobilizing church. And so we just we have we have shifted our people to be able to tell their story well, and it’s not hard. I’m like it’s your story; just go tell it. And so we what we have literally done is, it sounds so like simplistic and so trite, but the reality is we just tell them every week, earn the right to invite. So who’s your One? Ah we we about once a month I have them re-write it down, write that name down. Do you have that name? I ask them all the time. Do you have a One? Trevor DeVage — The other piece that I think is more key is our staff, part of our staff um review is who is your One, and what are you doing about it? Rich Birch — Oh good, good, good. Trevor DeVage — If our staff doesn’t own it, our church will never own it. So the cool thing is I’ve got staff members that in the last year they’re like, this is the first time I’ve actually invited someone. Great! Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — And they’ve come. You know? Rich Birch —Yes, yes, yes. Trevor DeVage — And it’s like great. Like I play golf. That’s that’s my thing; I play golf. Um, I’ve got to baptize about 8 guys that I play golf with in Tucson. Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Trevor DeVage — Um, it’s just an invite. Like and I yesterday I played golf with a couple guys. One goes to our church, one doesn’t. Rich Birch — Right Trevor DeVage — Um and now they’ve invited me to play golf. And I’m like, sweet. So you just invited me into 4 hours of getting to evangelize you. Thank you. Like ah it. Rich Birch — I’ll take it. Trevor DeVage — We tell those stories all the time. Rich Birch — Yeah. Trevor DeVage — Like you can’t not tell; you have to tell the story all the time. So we’re constantly telling the story about our Ones, and whether that’s in video, whether that’s from the platform, whether that’s in Rooted, whether that’s in a small group, whether that’s in the café. Like everywhere we talk about… There’s a big display in our lobby. It’s seven foot plexiglass 3D letters that say One. We put a ballpit ball with the name of every baptism in the date in there. Rich Birch — Love it. Trevor DeVage — Um, and it’s just visual reminders and then we have cards outside our auditorium literally they’re little square like 4 by 4 cards. Um, it’s literally just an invite card that we can’t keep them in stock. Rich Birch — Right. Trevor DeVage — People take them every Sunday. Rich Birch — Love it. Trevor DeVage — Um, we’ve just created a culture of invite where if you get them, if you invite them here, we’re going to make sure they get Jesus and they get it in a relevant, authentic way. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Well I think, you know, there’s so much I love about this, and you know about a month ago, six weeks ago I was at a church and you know they had me in for a coaching thing. And you know I was on Monday I did not on Sunday but on Monday I was challenging the the lead pastor on exactly this. I said you know some of this stuff is not rocket science. Some of it just comes down to like exactly what you’re saying there, which is like let’s articulate, hey next week is a great week for you to bring your friends for these reasons. Like even just, hey my my message is going in this this direction. Do you know, somebody who’s like this? They should come. You know having those invite cards, doing um you know all those there’s one thousand and one of those little things. I love that such a great example. Friends, ah, you know, Trevor just unleashed a whole bunch of great ideas in a very short period of time. You’ve probably got to go back and write down some notes. They’re so good. Rich Birch — This has been a fantastic conversation. Trevor, as we’re kind of coming into land, anything else you want to share? Any other kind of pieces of the puzzle you want to make sure that we’re we’re thinking about? Trevor DeVage — Yeah, here’s what I would say, just as lead pastor to any other lead pastors out there. And I know there’s a lot more than lead pastors that listen this podcast. But um and if you’re not lead pastor, lean in so you can talk to your lead pastor about it. Um, but lead pastors you have to be, one, you have to own your vision of what you’re asking everybody else to do. Trevor DeVage — And and when you simplify, simplification is the hardest thing we do. Ah ah like our team I’m like it’s easy to be complex because complex is job security, because if you’re the only one that can describe it, you get to keep your job for a while. Rich Birch — Oh dude, come on. That’s so good. Trevor DeVage — Um, but but but simplicity, like Craig Groeschel a couple years ago in his leadership podcast. He said he got introduced as the most boring leader in America. And he and he said, I was offended at first. He goes, but what the guy meant was when you go to Life Church, you know exactly what you’re gonna get, and you know what they’re about. Trevor DeVage — And ah and I told our team we’re going to be known as the most boring leadership team on the planet earth because when you come to Pantano, I want you to know exactly who we are and what you’re going to get. Pastors, stop like stop complexifying your organization—I don’t think that’s the word but I made it one—um make sure that this… when you go simplicity you have to buy the simplicity first, and you have to drive the simplicity. Don’t ask your team to drive it. You have to drive it. Trevor DeVage — Um, and then if you drive it enough, your team will catch it. And then you’re just managing the simplicity, which is actually job security. The more simple you can make it, I think the more people you reach. Um, again, our line around here is do less to reach more. Rich Birch — Love it. Trevor DeVage — And if you do less you will reach more when you understand who you are so. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. This has been a fantastic conversation. I love that analogy of being you know more boring. One of the things you know we’ve talked about in a bunch of contexts is your people won’t invite their friends if they don’t know what is going to happen at whatever thing it is we’re talking about – a service or whatever. They need to be able to be predictable. It needs to be… because when if you think about at the point of invite, you know, I talk to you I’m like hey you come this weekend, there’s gonna be a great band. There’s gonna be, you know, whatever this kind of music, that kind of thing. Well, let’s say if they show up and there’s a there’s a a giant orchestra there, which you could argue is actually better than a 5-piece band. You could say actually that’s a better thing. But it’s different than what I invited you to. It’s different than what I said. What does that do in the relationship? It enters this like oh I you don’t know actually know what’s going on at your own church. It makes people nervous. Trevor DeVage — [inaudible] is what it feels like. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — And what I’ve found is is most most people in our culture here, they don’t care about our band. They don’t care about the quality. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — They care about authenticity. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Trevor DeVage — And so now we do ah really, our team is fantastic. Rich Birch — Yes. Trevor DeVage — But what resonates with our people is they feel like there’s no pedestals at Pantano. We have no Pantano pedestals. We kick those over all the time. Rich Birch — Yep. Trevor DeVage — Um I’m I’m horrible on a pedestal. I can’t hold my balance anyhow. Um, but we try to be as real as we can be with people. And I think it’s in that that authenticity is what people are looking for. Rich Birch — Yeah. Trevor DeVage — Um, and as culture is shifting out of a pandemic into whatever the next thing of the world is um, you know the number one thing we did coming out of Easter is we’ve talked about anxiety, mental health. Um, we’ve had a massive growth out of Easter because we just we’re we’re going talk about mental health. Ah talk about things that the church is traditionally not talked about, but do it in a simple way and people will grab a hold of it. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Trevor, I’m just so thankful that you were on the show today. I also just want to pause for a moment, friends, and just honor you for your the way that you’re speaking about your predecessors. Friends, it would have been very easy for Trevor to come on and been like, here’s all the changes I made when I showed up and everything’s amazing. Now he wouldn’t have said it like that because he’s a good Christian so he wouldn’t have, you know, he would have couched it in a better way. But he didn’t. Listen carefully to the way he has honored Glen and the leaders that’s come before him. You know, personally as an outsider looking in I think that’s a part of what God’s doing here. He’s he’s honoring your humble leadership in the midst of all that. So I just I just want to honor you, Trevor, for that. It’s ah it’s great to engage with that. I appreciate you being on the show. If we where do we want to send people if they want to track with you, with the church where do we want to send them online? Trevor DeVage — Yeah, I mean the best place to go is pantano.church – um that’s our website and you can get everything there. We we actually do have a church podcast called The Make. And so you can you can dive deeper with us there and that’s on our website as well. Um, and then if you want to hang out with me, um, you can find me through all those things. But if you just take my name and put it into any social media. It’s just my first and last name: trevordevage – Instagram, Twitter (I don’t even use Twitter anymore and does that thing is Twitter still thing? Rich Birch — Is that a thing – exactly. Trevor DeVage — Um Facebook, TikTok all the all that. We’re on all the places. Um I got a website as well. Um but I don’t care nearly much about my stuff is just what the kingdom’s doing, so if you want to follow along with Pantano, man, pantano.church is the place to go. Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Trevor. Appreciate you being here today. Trevor DeVage — Thanks my man.