unSeminary Podcast

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Ken Nash, the Lead Pastor of Cornerstone Church in Michigan, is with us today. For decades churches measured how well they were doing based on counting nickels and noses, but with the upheaval and loss churches have experienced over the last few years, they need to change their metrics. Listen in as Ken shares how Cornerstone focuses on increasing engagement within its congregation by equipping people for ministry. The metric of engagement. // When it comes to measuring success and growth, Cornerstone Church is going after engagement with the people who have stayed with them after all of the ups and downs of the last few years. Using engagement as a metric looks like tracking what they call the 4 P’s: personal, participate, passion, and prepare. The 4 P’s. // Personal refers to the staff having numerous personal conversations with people in the church during the month to get to know the larger congregation. As staff meets with them, they find out where these people are participating in the ministry. Individuals who are serving discover their passion. Staff needs to pay attention to what people are passionate about and then identify a few people who are ready to launch something significant. The goal is to then spend time preparing this group to become the next generation of leaders. Give authority to the right people. // As the staff at Cornerstone watches people participate in the church, they take the time to get to know them and pay attention to 5 C’s: Does this person show Christ-likeness? Does this person have a calling to this ministry? Does this person have good chemistry with people? Do they have good competency? Do they have great courage? They need to have 4 or 5 of these C’s to be given full authority at the right time. The importance of equipping. // There can be a temptation to hire more staff as a solution to declining attendance. However, giving authority away and empowering all members of the church to find their callings and serve in ministry is critical to the success of the Church. As leaders step up to equip the saints for the work of the ministry, it becomes a movement. We can’t get in the way. // Ken believes the job of the senior leadership team is to first serve and empower the rest of staff so they can serve and empower the congregation. As lead pastor he brings clarity to the team and provides guardrails while allowing plenty of room for people to come alive in their passions. We need to embrace a messy middle ground between the extremes of having too many ministries and being too focused on controlling everything. It’s important to say “yes” to people’s passions and ideas, yet ask them a lot of clarifying questions to help them succeed. You can learn more about Cornerstone Church at www.cornerstonemi.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today, we’ve got a great episode. You know every week we try to bring you someone who will both inspire and equip you and today is no exception. Excited to have Ken Nash with us. Ah, he’s a pastor lead pastor at, ah, Cornerstone Church. This a multisite church in Michigan that’s experienced incredible growth over these last thirty plus years. It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country, multisite, like we said. Ken has a dual history. He was here ah prior to 2016 and then returned in the last couple of years to serve in the Lead Pastor role. Ken, welcome. We’re so glad you’re here. Ken Nash — Thanks, Rich, honor to be with you today. Rich Birch — Why don’t you fill in the picture? Kind of you know if people were to come this weekend to Cornerstone, what would they experience? What what did I miss there? How do… what’s the flavor of the church? Ken Nash — Yeah, come as you are church. Very dynamic, filled with lots of life, energy, vitality. Just a church that’s fully alive. Rich Birch — Love it. So good now you so you had this dual history. You were there pre 2016 and then you came back. Tell us that story. That’s kind of an interesting. Ken Nash — Yes. Rich Birch — Often times you you know you don’t you don’t hear that do what was that? What’s that piece of the puzzle? Ken Nash — Yeah, that’s one of the God’s curve balls. God has a way of being the better storyteller than than my plan. Rich Birch — So true. Ken Nash — So I actually built a good friendship with Brad Callajanin and he was the planter 30 years, 32 years ago, founder, you know that kind of thing. And so about 15 years into his ministry, he built a relationship with me. I was serving in a church that was growing quite rapidly in mid-Michigan. And he he just said, would you ever consider working here with me? And so as we started to build a friendship, I came on. I was really the first pastor he brought on as the church grew from his basement into, you know, into a thousand people. He said it’s probably time that I bring on a teammate and so our thought was that I would be the succession plan. Rich Birch — Oh okay. Ken Nash — So we figured here we’re moving along and we have we’re into you know 6, 8, now we’re into 10 years of ministry. And at that point I had gone off gotten a doctorate and studied research on multisite. So then we had planted a church. We planted another church, but we knew at 3 sites total, we thought it’s probably time to just kind of take a break, make sure our staff is caught up with all the changes and everything. So we weren’t looking at doing any more sites. And at that point he was saying I’m probably looking at 5, 5 or 6 more years until I retire. And I was thinking, Okay, if we’re not going to be planting any more churches, I don’t want to just ride the wave and ride on his coattails. I really felt like I needed to take some leadership challenges. So some job offers came and and this one in Buffalo came up and they ah, really, really healthy church out and just south of Buffalo. I took that job thinking that was gonna be my longterm strategy. Rich Birch — Right. Ken Nash — They were looking for a multisite ministry,I got a chance to get to know a lot of Buffalo Bills players, and you’d be in a really healthy area, a great, great church. And so I thought I’m going to be there for 20 years. And so about about 5, 4, 4 or 5 years in he said, I’m looking to retire. And we were going through the pandemic and it was just a really complicated time and so it allowed all of us to kind of ask the question through the pandemic, what’s my calling, you know, where are we supposed to go in ministry? And so we rejoined together as he was going into retirement years. And so and I heard in succession plan, it’s great to have an outsider insider. And so I actually you know I was ah a part of this church for 10 years, helped it grow through a lot of changes together. There’s a lot of that backstory. But and ultimately, um I was still an outsider because I went off to Buffalo for 5 years, got some lead pastor in a large church kind of responsibility so I could come back and spend my time really doing ministry back here in ah in our home um, home base where my wife grew up and where we kind of grew up in this area. So it kind of felt like this is where we want to do long term ministry anyway. Rich Birch — I love that. That’s so cool. Yeah I love that outsider insider. I’ve used that language in other contexts as well. There is something if you can find that relational connection ah, but but you have enough distance to be able to um, you know, see things maybe as they are, which sometimes when we’re in it there’s a forest and trees issue and so love that. There’s a ton we could talk about there. Rich Birch — Now you you use the p-word pandemic. And so I you know I’d love to kind of but get some perspective on that at Cornerstone. You know here we are, it’s so funny, right? It’s like I don’t know, when will we ever be post-pandemic? I’m not sure – maybe 10 years from now, you know, who knows, right? But it’s still impacting all our churches, right? Every church leader I talked across the country, you know, it is like this it’s still in the mix. It’s obviously not as it was two years ago, but it’s still a part of what’s happening. Give us the story at Cornerstone. What you know how did that impact the church? Obviously it changed you you ended up changing coming in at that point. But what how did you how do you kind of read that? What what impact did that have on the church? Ken Nash — People are still afraid of people. I’m I’m noticing that. And so gathering people, I mean we’re in the people gathering business. And so still we you know we get metrics every week and how many devices are still watching online. We’re close to 40 to 50% of our people are still truly watching online and that’s not those aren’t made up numbers. Those are factual numbers that we see. Very discouraging, very frustrating. But in my opening answer to you as we’re a lively church and dynamic. And and here’s why I say I sense Cornerstone is really fully alive right now, because we’re going after one word: engagement. Ken Nash — So while we care about and try to minister to people online, and we’re finding ways to engage them, We’re looking at who’s looking at us. What the pandemic allowed us to do, and you you know how God works in this sense of redemption, God can take anything and turn it into a redeeming resurrected value. And so we’ve seen through the pandemic, um, we know we’ve been pruned. And so now we know who’s with us. We had people that got mad when we mandated masks, and then when we didn’t mandate masks… Rich Birch — Right. Ken Nash — …and when we you know you couldn’t make the right decision. But then the people that stuck with us are really with us. So now we’re asking the question. Okay, who’s looking at us? Well let’s give them all that we’ve got. And so we’re looking for these sparks of of life and energy and and we’re fanning that into flame. And so what we’ve been actually starting to do is metric engagement. So we’ve kind o pandemic has forced us to change our scorecard. It’s not ah nickels and noses, like it used to be. Rich Birch — So true. Ken Nash — You always count the number of people in the seats, you count how much money came in and you’re a healthy church. Well, in some ways thank God that we’re not metricking that way anymore as a sign of a church. And we even knew pre-pandemic that we were that that wasn’t a healthy metric anyway. So it forced us to ask, what’s a better metric? So we’re now experimenting over the last couple of years with the 4 P’s. Rich Birch — Okay. Ken Nash — And so we’re metricking these now. Um. Rich Birch — I’d love to hear about… let’s maybe let’s let’s run through them quick and then maybe we can we can dive into them. So what are the four, and then we can kind of dive into each. Ken Nash — Personal, participate, passion, prepare. Rich Birch — Okay. Ken Nash — I’ll I’ll say them quickly with one sentence [inaudible] each one and then you can ask questions accordingly, but it… Rich Birch — Yep. Ken Nash — Personal… and think of it like a funnel going upside down. And so the the broadest, the biggest group of people would be the personal. Like I can have 25 personal conversations with people in a given month where you sit down have a cup of coffee and hear their story. Like do I know their names? So I’m asking our leadership and our staff, have you had a personal conversation with um, numerous amount of people this this week so that we’re really getting to know our larger congregation? Ken Nash — And then participate… as you’re meeting with them, are you finding where they’re participating in the ministry? From that participation we find that that’s where people find their passion. as they serve, they find what they’re really on on fire for. They find out either love working with kids, or I love volunteering here, or I love the the missional aspect of caring for the outreach ministry here. Ken Nash — And then the last one, prepare, is that the bottom of the funnel. There’s going to be out of all these a few people that really are ready to launch something significant. And they’re going to become your Next Gen leaders if you will. And so I’m going to spend my time preparing these people. Ken Nash — And so every person fits in one of the four Ps. And so as I’m getting to know new people, as I’m getting to know our so hearing where staff are engaging with the congregation, somebody will say, I’m at ah the fourth P person; I’m I’m preparing people now. And so now there’s I mean that’s what we’re metricking to be able to encourage engagement in the ministry… Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah. Ken Nash — …in ways that we weren’t before. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Oh absolutely. So I love this and I love that it’s driving, you know, like you say it was been a gift that we’re not just ah, you know, nickels and nickels and noses. It’s trying to drive to something deeper. Let’s talk through maybe start with personal. So how how does that actually work? You’re encouraging your staff to have X number of personal conversations a week. What is how does that work? How are you tracking it? What’s the reporting look like? Talk talk us through that. Ken Nash — It’s literally setting some of our staff free because they used to feel guilty saying, I go out to coffee with these 3 or 4 people and I I would feel like guilty in the past because I’m using the church’s dime. I’m being paid, I’m on the clock right now. And we’re we’re allowing by giving clear metrics in this way, we’re giving them permission to say, this is your job. What that’s changed in some ways is that our office isn’t as much… ah I mean there’s still a lot of activity around the office and there’s a lot of [inaudible] but it’s not as busy as it used to be. People are out and about connecting with people. And so then each person has to report. And so as we go through our quarterly reports and give people, you know at times of the review, we say give me names of people. Ken Nash — And so it gets it gets much more granular. And so instead of just looking at mass numbers out there, it’s really kind of thinking of the Jethro and Moses kind of model where Moses said how can I handle all these people? And Jethro says, break them down into just smaller chunks of numbers. And so as you get into the deeper P’s then, a personal would be maybe had just one conversation, and I know this family story a little bit. Ken Nash — And then we have to network, and so as a multisite ministry we’re constantly thinking, how can we net together all of our ministry so they’re interconnected? So we’re constantly emailing one another as a staff and sharing with each other, hey I had this personal conversation. And as we entered into our database we can then look through as I get to know a new family here, I can say, oh they’ve already been talked to by these two people so they’re getting to be known within the congregation. So we’re kind of creating a net this way. You have a personal conversation, jot these this information down, and, you know, CCB is the format that we use [inaudible]. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. And we and we’ve done a similar thing pre-pandemic with particularly our campus staffs, the people that were in our locations where there would be an expectation, you’re having an x number of one-on-one conversations during the week. I love that. But I love the drive of saying, Hey, we’re we’re not just having personal conversations. We’re trying to move people to participation. I would imagine at each one of these transitions there’s like, you know, there’s got to be a certain amount of action. I can kind of see that one. I’m having conversation. Okay, now maybe I’ve talked with this this family 2 or 3 times. Okay, now I need to really be finding out, Okay, how are you actually engaging? Is that how this works? Help me understand that. Ken Nash — Yeah, exactly. And so then you’re literally watching these people that, because we have to realize this is ah another way of looking at discipleship. If somebody starts to engage and they start to serve, there’s something happening in their soul that says, I want to help serve in different ways. Ken Nash — And if you watch them start to correct things, which by the way anger to us is a good thing. When somebody’s angry, it’s nothing to be afraid of because anger is a kind of passion. Rich Birch — Yes. Ken Nash — So now this metric we’re saying, hey that’s just proof that they’re on level 3 of of the third P of passion. Um, their their anger about that is just trying to improve our system which let them down. and so it doesn’t create this chaos within our staff anymore when there’s tension in from within the congregation. Apathy is our bigger fear, frankly. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Ken Nash — And so if you as you watch this play out, somebody starts to participate, we go ah wonderful! Did you see any passion come out of them where they’re a little bit grumpy about this kind of stuff over here? And so it’s in in many ways much more conversational in ways than we have been before instead of just treating people like a number, we we really get to know their heart in so many ways. Rich Birch — Talk me through the participation. You’ve set up participation as being a volunteer thing, jumping on a team. Ken Nash — Right. Rich Birch — Is that intentional or was that just an example? Talk us through is that kind of the preferred course that you’re kind of seeing people take directions towards getting in… Ken Nash — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, on to into participating in the church. Ken Nash — You know that when when you’re when your ministry is growing and people are coming in from from different avenues, you do want to take some time to vet them and get to know them. We our definition of leadership is… really my job and really our staff’s job is to give authority to the right people at the right time. So um, if you give people authority at the, you know at the wrong time they’re sometimes more passionate about something out over else over here and there end up they’ll end up not being as you know, engaged in the ministry, because they they just ah for whatever reason got trapped by you know, just the busyness of life or whatever, and you just didn’t take the time to get to know them. Or they may be just a toxic person. Rich Birch — Right. Ken Nash — And so this allows us to take some time to just engage and get to know them a lot a lot more. Before, you know, as you watch them show some passion, then you actually start preparing them, you need some time to do that. And that’s really the clearest way to say it. It might help um I have so many other ways to look at this. Ken Nash — The five C’s, and not to give you a whole bunch of acronyms – I know that gets annoying, but this really helps for… Rich Birch — No, it’s good. It’s good. Ken Nash — …for memory’s sake, as we’re watching people participate we think of the 5 C’s. And you’ve probably heard of the three C’s, we’ve added 2 more to them. But they’re around this… Does this person show Christ-likeness? Does this person have a Calling to this ministry? Does this person have good Chemistry with people, you know, people skills? Do they have good Competency? And do they have great Courage? Ken Nash — So a lot of times, you know, they get a voice from, the Lord gives them a prompting and then they just don’t have the courage to say yes to it. And so I’d say, okay would we want to give them full authority. If we’re going to give the [inaudible] to the right people at the right time, then they need to have, in many ways either 4 or 5 of these C’s. Rich Birch — Yeah. Ken Nash — I find like calling, for example, they’re sometimes more called to their you know the PTC or and you know maybe their cottage or some you know retirement plan that they’re going after; they’re not really called to the ministry. So am I going to give them full authority if they don’t have really all 5 of these C’s? I find if you compromise on that, and the only way to find out about the five C’s is to take your time to really study them over time. So we find participation is a great way to get to know people over time. So like well the front door you probably heard this a lot and I’ve heard this actually on your podcast with the front door hospitality is a great way to just get somebody in and plugged in and connected. And get to know them over this time. And then then they say oh but I can’t do it on this Sunday and I can’t do it on this Sunday. And but then they say but I want to launch this over here and you say well they they really haven’t shown a great engagement of ministry. We can’t really trust them to give them full authority yet, if that if that makes sense. Rich Birch — It makes total sense. I love that ah, that fifth C of courage. I think particularly in this post pandemic world I think one I literally just earlier today I was talking to a church leader about you know we’re just reflecting and this person was reflecting on their own kind of journey, and they were saying you know the thing they were praying for was more courage in this season, that they’re like hey I they’re like ah I don’t have any question on what I need to do. That’s not the question. I know what I need to do. The question is do I have the courage to actually do it… Ken Nash — Yes. Rich Birch — …to actually, you know, push forward. And I think our churches, I think that’s just true in… the more our communities become more and more post-christian or maybe even pre-christian um, then we need courageous leaders. I just love that. Ken Nash — We do. Yeah certainly. Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Ken Nash — To to watch people step up and and truly say, not just complain about it, but actually be willing to help solve it with you. A lot of times they sit back passively and they say I wish the church would do this. I wish the pastor would do this. I wish… you know and, but I love it when people have the courage to be but able to say, but I want to help. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Ken Nash — I want to help you join in with you. Rich Birch — Love it. I I do want to ask you. We had talked earlier about before the call about some research um that I want to make sure we get to, but one of the things I want to underline for folks that are listening in, um I’ve seen this anecdotally time and again in churches, we saw it at our church, we’ve seen it at our church that um, when people come into our church and get connected, you know, we often give them multiple pathways. You say get in a team, get on a, you know, get in a group and on a team. Um, and we’ve noticed that people who first join a group are less likely to get on a team. But actually if you go the other way around, if people first join a team, they’re more likely then to get in a group. That there seems to be a sticking point that that if we if we move people to mission first, they actually drive deeper into the community rather than ah, you know the other way around. They’re other than going… And I’m not saying groups are bad. Don’t don’t save your cards and letters, friends. I’m not saying that. I just I’m pointing out that we’re seeing, you know, some of that kind of evidence. I’d love you to comment on that. What do what do you think about that? Yeah. Ken Nash — I have I have found that to be absolutely true. There’s something about how… we call it around here the great question. Jesus actually coaches us on how to be great. So you want to be great in life? He literally says if you want to be great, serve. And so the great question around Cornerstone is, how can I help? And so um, we don’t want people just to volunteer because they’re trying to please me. We want them to volunteer because they genuinely know, I come alive most when I serve. And so that really fits with what we’re trying to move people into, which is engagement in the ministry. Because when they engage in that way, boy, it’s amazing. Ken Nash — If you get into a group, it’s oftentimes—and again I don’t want to bring cards or letters your way. Maybe don’t give them my information you can come to you—but when they’re in a group, it can sometimes be selfish because it’s… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Ken Nash — …you know, what what can you do for me? I need you to to pray for all that stuff is good. I need to be cared for, prayed for, covered in that. But in terms of engagement, when people start serving and they they just Jesus said you will become great. You want to be great, serve other people. And so you some something happens in us spiritually that you come alive in that. So yeah I spot… Rich Birch — I love that. The great question. That’s good. I wrote that down. That’s I’m going to steal that. Ken Nash — [laughs] Rich Birch — That’s really great. Ah tell me talk about this research, you know we chat a little bit about that that that’s impacted your leadership. Ken Nash — Yeah, years ago when I was doing some research on multisite, I read a research by Roger Fink out of Penn State, and he was just asking the question, not even from an ecclesiological, not even a church standpoint. He was just asking sociologically about a group of people. Um, we’ve just gone through ah a disaffiliation process with the United Methodist Church, but we have a United Methodist roots. We now and are a nondenominational church, but in there he was finding that the Methodist Church grew from 2.5 percent of the population base when our country was founded in 1776, 1 in 50 people were Methodist… Rich Birch — Wow. Ken Nash — …when when um, our country was founded. And then it grew to 1 in 3, just seventy years later. So by 1851, 1 in 3 people were Methodist that associated in in any kind of Christianity. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Ken Nash — And so Roger Fink saw this study and he said, how come the Methodists aren’t 1 in 3 today? And so he he did some heavy research looking at what they did, and he came up with this one statement of finding what happened. Cause the Methodist Church grew so rapidly and then in 1850 it started shrinking. And ever since then you haven’t seen as much influence. And this is what he said, and this changed my ministry. He said the dramatic metric rise of the Methodists was short-lived. It’s instructive to note that the Methodists began to slump at precisely the same time that their amateur clergy were replaced by professionals who claimed Episcopal authority over their congregations. In other words, the pastors got in the way. So we were a grassroots movement of all these lay people that were engaged in the ministry. And they were saying, I have been given authority. I’m able to step into ministry and my life matters. And what happened then in 1851 we voted to say you can only preach if you’re ordained, you’ve been to school, or you’ve been trained properly. And we went from this movement to a denominational monument that stopped the flow of the Spirit’s really anointing over the denomination in some ways. Rich Birch — Wow. Ken Nash — And so when I read that I said I I never want to get in the way again. And frankly I have been. I’ve been the spotlights. And Dave Ferguson was a ah real strong help for me when I was going through my study of multisite and all of that. And his concept of hero maker is really spot on with what this research actually shows too, where we can’t get in the way. Our job is to get under and serve the Ephesians 4 model of how can I give authority to and to serve, you know, as an apostle, prophet, you know, shepherd, evangelist, and teacher. As as one of these leaders step up to give authority away to equip the saints for the work of ministry um, it becomes a movement then. Ken Nash — And so our goal here at Cornerstone is to help 100% of our people to find their calling in ministry. And so if you’re a part of this church, our goal is to help you find your calling. And when that happens then we’re going to give you empowerment and authority so that you can move forward. And then we become a movement and not this, you know, top-down, if-Ken-says-that-we-believe-it-that-settles-it, personality-driven church, but to really be a servant-driven church. We’ve even changed in light of this research. We’ve changed our we call the SLT, or a vision team, but our senior leadership team um, Harvard Business review kind of teaches that kind of stuff, but we changed it from senior leadership team to servant leadership team. Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Ken Nash — So our our core leaders are here to say, how can we first serve the rest of the staff? And then how can the staff serve the rest of the congregation so that we can help people find their calling and and their their real passion and ministry? Rich Birch — I love that. That’s that’s so good. And you know we we see that in churches oftentimes um when they plateau or in decline, actually one of the signs of that at a, you know, so that’s at like a movement level, but at an individual church level, actually ironically, there’s this weird thing that happens where churches are like they’re maybe they’re starting to slow down. And so then the leadership says well we need to do is hire people. Let’s hire let’s hire another Youth Pastor. Let’s hire somebody else to do this role. Let’s hire somebody to do that. And and actually that’s counterproductive. Ken Nash — Yeah. Rich Birch — We see that time and again that actually ah, more staff per per per attendee or per you know people in your church actually is an indicator of lack of growth, not um, not a [inaudible] not actually spurring growth. There was a church um, just recently I was was a part of this conversation where they were kind of picking apart the… it was a sad conversation. It was like picking apart the decline of a church. And there was like ah a 10 year slide – it was fascinating. It’s a very large church, 5000 people, and it’s it’s shrunk back down to, you know, I think they’re their sub one thousand probably, 500 people something like that. And they had a 10 year slide where they they were 10 years they had they didn’t grow. But what did grow was their staff. Their staff doubled in that 10 year period. Ken Nash — Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna ask they must have just kept hiring and hiring and hiring… Rich Birch — Yes. Ken Nash — …for out for to do the work of the people. Rich Birch — Yes. Ken Nash — Unfortunate, so unfortunate. Rich Birch — Yeah and that’s it it’s a temptation. It is a, you know, and and you can see this in um there’s lots of examples of this. But this is a what a vivid example from this, you know, research from Fink for sure. That’s yeah, that’s that’s good. That’s vivid for sure. Rich Birch — So when you think about, kind of… so I love this. You’re pushing your people towards engagement. I love the 5 P’s. I love a good alliteration. 4 P’s and 5 C’s – that’s fantastic. When you look to the future, how does this ah, you know, how do you think this is going to impact your thinking when you look up over the horizon, what’s it kind of changing in the way you’re thinking about the future? Ken Nash — It’s it’s hard, Rich, because I’m a control freak. I’m a first born. You know, my dad was an air traffic controller… Rich Birch — Oh wow. Ken Nash — …so I was trained in control. And so I this is contrary to everything that I’m wired to do, which is to control, and be you know that that Moses model of you know, and it’s just so discouraging because I know how to do it right. And anytime I give authority, they do it wrong. They don’t do it my way. And but I was set four years ago as I started to wrestle with this, because I was in a church that grew many years ago in a small church that mid-Michigan church I was talking about it. It grew and then it shrank after I left. And I I cried for several years as I watched all these people that I loved and baptized and walked in ministry with and then they faded away from the ministry. I built the church around me. Rich Birch — Yeah. Ken Nash — And so God finally set me free and said you were trying to control it. And you know, Jesus is the head of the church, not the senior leader. And so when you can get that out of your mind, well I went to this right around that time I learned from Rick Warren; he said somebody was ah as at a conference where he was speaking and somebody said, Rick, I don’t like everything happening at your church. And Rick said the best answer; he said, I don’t like everything happening at my church. And that set me free and it showed me and modeled for me that when you let go of control, it’s going to look different. Because you think you do it all right, and I think my way is best, but you know what? People have their own callings as well, and frankly, they will make it better better because they’re going to bring a passion that you can’t because you’re burned out. Ken Nash — So if you hold onto the control and say, I want the church to look just like this, and I’m I’m I’m the senior leader and it’s my job to make sure all the parameters in really great shape. You got to let go of that. And so what does the future look like? It’s beautiful because I wake up each day saying, God, how are you going to surprise me with somebody that gets a new holy disturbance within the congregation, this new passion welling up inside of them. And then they they come alive in this. And they’re going to take the church in a direction I never would have… Rich Birch — Yeah. Ken Nash — …had I not had the courage to get out of the way and to to in many ways just give that authority to the right people, the 5 C type of people that are ready to walk in in a humble way of leadership. So as I think about the future, I like I can’t wait to see what this church evolves into… Rich Birch — Sure. Ken Nash — …in light of the people God sends us. Rich Birch — Yeah, love that. You know, one of the things like in ah when I first started in ministry and you know you and I have a similar ah vintage. You know, there were these churches out there that had the they would, they’d brag about it – they’d say 110 different ministries. They would be like we have all these different things, and then and there was a part of that that was crazy, right? Like a part of it was like okay this is like we’re running in a gajillion different directions and it was it felt unfocused. Um, but it did work in the sense of it engaged a ton of people. I know kind of post Eric Geiger and Tom Rainer’s book, Simple Church, it it it um one of the things we learned was, wow, if if we could narrow down on fewer things, we we’d be more effective. We could we could reach more people, but I do think that… Ken Nash — I get the logic, I get the logic of that. I do. Rich Birch — Yes. But one of the things, to your to your point, one of the things that was is probably a negative outcome of that, which wasn’t their intention, was it fed it fed all of our controlling instincts. It fed our instincts to be like, hey we just justified it as Simple Church. Simple church. Simple Church. Simple Church. Ken Nash — Yes. Rich Birch — How do you balance those two off? How do we because I don’t think we’d want to go—I um could be wrong—I don’t think what you’re saying is let’s go back to the 112 ministries thing. Let’s get back to tons of different stuff. Ken Nash — Right. Rich Birch — Ah, but but but we do want to empower people more; help me understand the nuance of those. Ken Nash — Well, it’s um I was all in on Simple Church. We we actually followed that model for a while because the control freak in me. You just nailed it, Rich. My my control control nature loved that. However, however, it was going contrary to then this research that just right after I started studying Simple Church, I read this from Roger Fink… Rich Birch — Yep. Ken Nash — …and so they were diametrically opposed. And so I think where you’re getting at where’s the messy middle in there? And I think the word messy has to be in that like it is a messy middle. But ultimately I would err I would rather err on the side of the word yes, than to err on the side of the word no. Rich Birch — Right. Ken Nash — And so I I loved I think it was Andy Stanley who said, I’d rather say wow first before the how. And the controlling nature in me wants to say how? Okay somebody comes to me with a passion and I’d say, Okay, here’s all the parameters. How are you going to pull it off in a church like this where we have a limited marketing budget, and we’ve got a limited this staff, and how are how are… But if you start with wow and say, wow, this is your calling, your passion; I’m going to say yes to you. If you come to me I’m gonna say yes, but I’m gonna say yes with a hundred questions. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Ken Nash — This will probably drive that one more acronym the word FAN. I’m sorry about this… Rich Birch — No, it’s good. Ken Nash — …but everybody has a park and a spark inside of them and it’s my job to fan that into flame. And so that means I’m going to meet with you face to face, I’m gonna ask you a bunch of questions, and I’m gonna network you with people who have a similar passion. Rich Birch — That’s good. Ken Nash — So I’m gonna F.A.N. you. So we’re constantly as a staff saying, how are you who have you fanned today? And as you fan them, they can fit in one of the 4 P’s, you know, and you know so it all kind of fits. But just trying to get clarity. I feel like my job is to bring clarity to our team and make sure we’re all pointed in the same direction. What happens then is we have these guardrails and then there’s lots and lots of room for people to come alive in their passions. Most of the time their passion, as you fan them, it’ll be something they launch in their neighborhood. They’ll launch it in their workplace. They’ll they’ll launch it outside of the church. Or they’ll launch it actually a part of another ministry around the community instead of fighting with the churches, again, a blessing of the pandemic. We realize churches need one another; we need to stop competing with one another. Rich Birch — Yeah. Ken Nash — So as you fan somebody you start realizing, hey they fit there. So you could say yes to everybody. Yes, with these 100 questions. And so then say do you have a leadership team that would do this? Do you have a strategy in which you’re going to market this over time? So they answer these questions. It may take them nine months to a year to actually answer all the questions, but they have something passionately that they’re going after to launch it effectively. So my job to serve them is to ask them the right questions to help them to succeed, rather than just have me over them kind of patting them on a head saying, here I want you to do this, and I control them. So that’s that’s a difference in philosophy. Rich Birch — That’s good. Ken Nash — But there’s a that’s a messy middle in there. Rich Birch — Yes. Ken Nash — But it’s holding on to it loosely rather than holding onto it with great control that I’m going to say no to most things. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, love it. Love it. That’s I love that, you know, FAN: face-to-face, ask questions, network with others. I just love that. I think I think that’s really clear and the idea of ask lots of questions, yeah, that’s our job. Like that’s and we and we’re not we’re not positioning ourselves as like, hey I’m the the either the rubber stamp that lets you do it, or the or the gatekeeper that’s just going to, you know, close it off. It’s like, hey, let me help you process this. It almost feels like Ephesians 4, like our job is to maybe equip people and like yeah, it’s a very novel idea, like it’s very very New Testament. So just love it. So good. Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation. Anything else you’d like to say just as we wrap up today’s discussion? Ken Nash — Yeah, honestly I love your unSeminary podcast around the idea of saying, okay, what would you if I could go back to seminary twenty-some years ago, I would literally say I wish I had been trained in how to give authority away to the right people at the right time. If I had just gotten that one concept. But but of course school of hard knocks is just you learn a lot, so over the last you know 10 years you know first ten years I learned all this, the last 17 years I’ve been able to practice it and live it out. So school of hard knocks taught me but that is a lesson I wish if we can get pastors to get out of the way and to really believe in the calling of the priesthood of all believers, it’s not just a cliche set at conferences. It is the secret sauce to watching us have an influence in this culture for Christ. Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Well it’s great. So where do we want to send people online, Ken, if they want to track with you, if they want to track with the church, if people are interested… Ken Nash — Yeah, thanks. Rich Birch — …I’d encourage them to you I think you know is a big great church for you to follow along with. Ken Nash — Yeah, yeah cornerstonemi.org just check out our church and you know I’d love to interact with them and anybody have any questions, I’d love to to care for them in that way. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much… thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Ken Nash — Thanks, Rich.

Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lead Pastor, Phil Caporale, and Campus Pastor and Kingsway Leadership School Site Director, George Probasco, from Kingsway Church in New Jersey. As a church leader, one of the most challenging aspects of your role can be developing leaders. While it can be difficult to identify potential leaders and provide them with the necessary training and support, neglecting this area can have serious consequences for the long-term success of the Church. Listen in as Phil and George share some practical steps that church leaders can take to invest in leadership development. A critical issue. // Raising up leaders is critical because pulpits are emptying faster than we can fill them. Whether it’s because of ego, a fear of being replaced, or something else, many church leaders haven’t obeyed Ephesians 4:11-16, instead shouldering the work ourselves. We have to train others for the work of ministry without worrying that they may get more recognition or do something better than us. It’s rewarding when we can fan into flame God’s gift in someone else’s life to help them walk in God’s purpose for them. This process is part of making disciples. Leader Track. // Kingsway Church launched a 10-week program called Leader Track which is an onboarding ramp for high-capacity volunteers. It helps people apply principles from the word of God on things, such as character development, creating a personal mission statement, and leading healthy teams, to all areas of their work, homes and lives. Ministry Education. // Meanwhile for those interested in full-time ministry and acquiring a degree, Kingsway Church has partnered with Southeastern University (SEU) to create Kingsway Leadership School (KLS). Through KLS, Kingsway can offer 15 degrees, five of which are master’s degrees. Not only is this a more affordable option for students because they can take classes online, it also provides practical ministry experience along with their theological education. Head, heart, and hands. // Kingsway Leadership School is broken down into three components: head, heart, and hands. Head represents SEU’s partnership with the church, heart is leadership and character development, and hand allows students to receive college credits through a ministry practicum. This structure allows students to continue to serve in their local churches while also getting a ministry education and hands-on experience. Ministry practicum. // Because many of the students have full-time jobs, the program takes place midweek in the evening from 6-9pm. This midweek portion includes leadership and character development while Sundays are a ministry day. In their first year, students are exposed to all the different ministries at Kingsway Church and rotate through working with the various ministry leaders. Students in years two, three, and four are allowed to choose their ministry focus and the church leader in that area then becomes responsible for training that student. Lead through others. // To start taking steps towards intentional leadership development in your church, look at your calendar and identify 6-8 hours where you can be investing in other people. Model this to your staff and provide them with regular, practical training so they are equipped to invest in others. Finally, as church leaders we need to make ourselves available to our staff teams and keep developing them as they develop others. You can learn more about Kingsway Church at www.kingsway.church, or email George to learn more about Kingsway Leadership School. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: CDF Capital Since 1953, CDF Capital has helped Christians and churches embrace their part in this story by providing the 3 kinds of capital every congregation needs for growth—Financial Capital, Leadership Capital, and Spiritual Capital. At CDF Capital, we care about each of these components. When a church is properly resourced financially, spiritually, and in leadership, lives are transformed. Sign-up to learn more about CDF Capital and how we can help your church grow. Receive a 50% discount on a monthly subscription to the CDF Capital Subscribe & Save Bundle. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, I’m really excited for today’s conversation ah because it’s a great church, but it’s also a great church in New Jersey, even though it’s South Jersey. It’s not central jersey which just does not exist and so ah, you know and we’re already off to the races just only talking to people in New Jersey but so excited to have some leaders from Kingsway Church here, Phil Caporale and George Probasco, just are fantastic leaders from an incredible church. They’re they’re doing some great stuff ah, both in the you know online world with their church online and a couple physical campuses in South Jersey. Rich Birch — They also have this really innovative partnership with Southeastern University in Lakeland Florida that we want to drill into and learn more. Ah, Phil is the lead Pastor, George is ah the leader of this school and also one of their campus pastors – welcome to the show show, guys. Glad you’re here. Phil Caporale — Yeah, thanks for having us, Rich. Rich Birch — Phil, why don’t we start with you. Tell us a little bit about kind of round out the picture, round out the Kingsway picture. What did I miss there? What what, you know, if people were to come to the church this weekend, what would they experience? Talk us through what, you know, give us the Kingsway flavor. Phil Caporale — Yeah, yeah, thanks. Well um, our church’s been around a while. It started in in Camden New Jersey in 1925, so we’re just a couple years short of our hundredth anniversary. Rich Birch — Wow. Phil Caporale — So long, long history and ironically enough they started in a in a grocery store. And you know what they would do on the weekends is go in and take down all the produce off the shelves, canned goods, and and set up church. So before we were multi-campus or even knew it was a thing in in our history, embedded in the beginning of our church, they were set up and tear down in a grocery store. Um. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Like they didn’t have it 24/7; they only had it on Sundays. Phil Caporale — Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — That’s incredible. Wow that’s amazing. Phil Caporale — Yeah, and then sometime later, a few decades after that, bought ah a purchased a bank in the city of Camden. We have some people in our church that will tell you stories of going to Sunday school in a vault in the bank once they purchased it… Rich Birch — Amazing. Yeah. Phil Caporale — …and then move to our current location in Cherry Hill in the ’70s. And and then eight years ago, it’ll be 8 years this fall, that we launched the Glassboro campus that George is the campus pastor at. And that’s been going well, been in a bunch of places in the last several years, actually 8 locations in the seven plus years. Um and if people join us on Sunday in person, online, I think one of the one of the hallmarks of our church is I think authenticity. We hear that a lot from people. It’s very warm and welcoming, people use those words a lot. And even as they’re trying to express the presence of the Lord and how they sense and feel and interact with that. So, love it. Our our heart is for this area South Jersey. Obviously we’re just ten, twelve miles outside of Philadelphia too, so consider ourselves the suburb of that city as well. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. This is gonna be a great conversation particularly around the whole leadership development issue that so many of our churches are are leaning in, and there’s a lot I want to talk about I want to make sure we we talk to folks. But George why don’t we start with you. It seems like so many churches struggle with developing leaders who are not staff. In fact, recently I was talking to a church, a senior pastor lead pastor at a church, who kind of challenged his team. He gathered them together, and this is a fairly you know thousand person, 1500 person church, that challenges leaders to get together and and asked his staff,Hey like how many of you lead volunteers who lead other volunteers. And ah it was single digit. It ended up being there was just a few of these people in our churches. Man, that just seems to be such ah ah, an issue. Ah, talk to us about this issue, George. Why is this such a critical issue for us as church leaders to be thinking about? George Probasco — Yeah I think it’s ah important for several reasons. And by the way um, you know all credit to Pastor Phil here because what you see and what you’re going to get from from this is exactly what I’ve been learning from him over the years now. Rich Birch — Nice. George Probasco — I’ve been saved and and knew of my faith for about 8 years and Pastor Phil’s always been there every step of the way… Rich Birch — Love it. George Probasco — …and so what you hear is a little bit pastor it’s going to be from Pastor Phil. Rich Birch — I love it. George Probasco — So I want to say I want to say Ephesians 4 and when we don’t do Ephesians 4:11-16 we are violating the scriptures. And I think so many churches, and this is pertaining to New Jersey um you know, specifically in Assemblies of God and in our network or our fellowship, is that ah pulpits are emptying faster than we can fill them. And um, that’s an unfortunate reality. And I think if I just had to draw conclusions over the years it’s because we violated simply Ephesians 11:14-16. We have not raised up leaders. Because pastors you know, probably themselves or only had a select or a small team to do the actual work of the ministry and they were doing it themselves. And so it’s critical because you know we have churches with empty pulpits now. And we have empty positions and and there’s ah, there’s a serious need in the in in these communities for pastors and ministry leaders to preach the gospel. So. Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Phil, why are church leaders why are we tempted to not develop leaders like why, you know, why do we not do that? Like it seems because Ephesians 4 is, it is very clear. It’s not it’s not like debatable. You can’t be like, oh like I wonder what we’re supposed to do? It’s like pretty clear. But what’s those what’s the temptation. What why do you think we’re we’re tempted to not develop leaders? Phil Caporale — Yeah, but I think part of it is not knowing how to craft the ask, for one. Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Phil Caporale — You know, does it look like if if I’m a pastor, or I’m a ministry leader or director on a staff on a staff team at a church, um, there’s a little bit of that sense of responsibility. Well I was hired to do this. This is this is my job. Here’s my job description with a set list of bullet points that I have to meet some requirements on. And and while that’s true, there’s a part of all of our responsibilities, for those of us that are ministry leaders, pastors, whatever on staff at churches, to to do a part of our job, but we really want to help our our team and other churches as as the Lord allows us to to to really shift that in the sense of, Hey we’ve got to empower people. Phil Caporale — Right back to what you and George just mentioned a moment ago – Ephesians 4 is pretty clear. You know that God gives the gifts to the church so that we can. We can pastors, evangelists, apostles, prophets, teachers um prepare the people for works of service. But if you read on and get to verses 12 through 16, particularly, there’s a lot of fruit there. Paul talks about growth, and maturity, and building up, and edification, and the body is strong, and people really find um, their groove. They use the gifts and the skills and the natural aptitudes that God’s hardwired into them to be able to um, feel that life-giving sense of purpose, being part of the body of Christ. So I think it it goes back to the the the ability and the awareness to be ah conscientious of the fact that we have to make an ask. I think it’s a little bit too, Rich, of ego that gets in the way of pastors and ministry leaders a lot of time. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true. Phil Caporale — If if I train somebody else that could do it as well or maybe even better than me, um, am I going to be needed? Is there is there a need for my position or for my role? So we’ve got to always fight and and and battle against that the need to be recognized, or to get the pat on the back for, you know, any kind of recognition. Um I think one of the greatest greatest things that we can experience—I know this is true of George, of our other leaders, and myself I’ve experienced this—that when you can fan the gift and the flame in somebody else’s life and you can watch them walk in the purpose that God’s designed them for, man, it’s one of the most rewarding things. And then you realize oh no, what Paul is instructing us there, is the same thing he told Timothy, right, in 2 Timothy 2:2. What you hear me say in the presence of others, teach reliable people that can go teach others. So Paul’s saying that you can have influence three clicks removed um and without ever seeing people because you’re passing on what you’ve been given. Phil Caporale — So I think it’s those couple of things and then I think it’s also there’s not there’s not many good models. And we’re certainly far from having it all figured out. We’ve just been fortunate enough, and God’s been gracious enough to us to put people in our lives that have just said, hey come along, shadow me, let’s do this side by side. We have a little philosophy amongst our staff that, hey whenever you’re doing anything in ministry, whether you’re going to Costco’s and picking up supplies, whether you’re going on a hospital visit, you’re planning an event, take somebody with you, let somebody shadow you. And have conversation, right? So it’s that lead… it’s discipleship’s happening but it’s also developing leaders at the same time. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah I was thinking it’s not lost to me that that there’s two of you here today. I love that you’re modeling it, even in this conversation. George talk me through at Kingsway, so let’s say either you maybe in your campus specifically, or on a team in your you know in your campus you you see one of those people who are like, okay that person’s got some potential. How do you begin? What is the conversation? What’s the platform? What’s the ask for trying to move those people towards leading? What does that look like, George? George Probasco — Yeah, so one of the things that ah that I specifically do is I try to lead through my staff. So they are really the ones having the conversations, or I am if if I’m approaching an individual in the church that I feel has leadership potential, um, what I’m doing is shoulder tapping them and then connecting them with somebody from our um, our team specifically. And so one of the programs that we launched this year, relaunched that I should say, Pastor Phil can go in a little bit more about that would be Leader Track. And that’s something that is a great pipeline onboarding ramp for ah, high capacity volunteers within the church context as far as that that perspective is concerned. And that is a little bit less skin in the game as far as fulfilling an academic requirements through our partnership with SEU, so. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, yeah, Phil, do you want to tell us about Leader Track, kind of unpack that? What does that look like? How do we talk to that ah, you know what’s covered there? How how does that fit? How’s that work? Phil Caporale — Yeah, yeah, it had its Genesis in about 2015, so we’re going back a few years. Actually George and about 13 others were the pilot of that and we just put together what was then Leader Step, Rich, was really out of our assimilation and what is our Growth Track process. People were going through that, they were doing everything we were asking of them to move in their journey in their faith, and you know, being involved in the life of the church, being connected in a small group—we call life groups—being being on a ministry team. But then we had a handful of people come up to us, and George was one of them then, that said. Hey I’m I’m in but I feel like God has something else for me to develop. I feel like I can lead others. I feel like I want to learn more; I want to lead better. And so after several of those conversations, it was enough at the time our lead team for us to realize, Hey we should probably lean into this a little bit more and and do something a little bit more deliberate in training um, high-capacity volunteers that can really step into some ministry roles, but really fulfill um, what they’re sensing in their hearts and and let’s let’s do that. You know, let’s go back to Ephesians 4. Phil Caporale — So we started doing that. We did it for several years and took about 70-ish people through that. And we were watching just the fruit of that, which was spectacular because people were owning their part of ministry. They were owning their they were owning that idea of growing their influence in their homes, in their families, on their jobs. I mean some of the stories that were outside the walls of the church were incredible of how God was working in people’s lives. And then um, from that we we launched a year-long program that was very intense that we just called Protégé, like some others have named it and that discipleship program. And then out of that was birth the the leadership school, Kingsway Leadership School. Phil Caporale — But even even though we’re in our I think 6 year now of of the school, we realized that hey they’re gonna be people that are aren’t going to be preparing for full time ministry, or don’t need a degree, or aren’t interested in that level of commitment. So we’ve got to bring this Leader Step back that was on hiatus for a little while, and we just thought, hey it really is a track for leadership development and potentially not just leading as a volunteer. But if people are wrestling with a full time call to vocational ministry, um, Leader Track can help begin to allow them to explore that. So we just relaunched it this past fall. We named it instead of Leader Step, Leader Track this time. And it’s a ten week commitment. In fact to pilot it, or re-pilot it, we took our our Kingsway Leadership School to students through it in their fall semester, asked them for feedback, asked them to speak to it. What do you love? What do you not like? What do you need more of? What what could we take away? Phil Caporale — And then we um, we made an invite of um, we’re hoping to take 40 people through it this year, and we just finished a ten week cohort of 22 of them um, that are already leading in many areas of of our church. Some of our pastors and ministry directors have already made specific asks of them in in you know, worship and student ministry, children’s ministry, whatever else. And now the responsibility is on our our staff to meet back up with those people that have gone through it and continue to make an ongoing investment into them. Phil Caporale — And so some of the early fruit we’re seeing is relationships that are being forged, Rich, in some incredible ways as well. But people really leaning into it. We’re getting reports similar to what it was in the past of people applying the principles at work. I mean some of these people are lead in high-level roles in their jobs, entrepreneurs in business, whatever it is, education, and they’re taking some of the principles from the word of God on character development, and personal mission statement, and leading healthy teams, and implementing that. And they’re coming back and saying things like this, Hey this works! And we’re like yes, of course it does! Rich Birch — Love it. Phil Caporale — You know, that’s incredible. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Phil Caporale — So it’s it’s been fun to really watch that. And it just it just continues to ignite that fire in us to go man, this is what we as ministry leaders, as pastors, are called to do. And we shouldn’t be surprised of the fruit that Paul promised in the word. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. You know, one of the interesting things is I saw a stat recently I think it was three quarters I think it was like 76% of this is marketplace leaders who are already managers, so they’re already leading people, say they have never received any training to be a manager… Phil Caporale — Wow. Rich Birch — …which is fascinating. And so you can see why as a church if we step in and provide some leadership, it doesn’t surprise me at all, you step in and provide some leadership training, man, it makes a huge difference in in people’s lives. Sticking with you, Phil, how do you balance out the um like the in class, something like Leader Track, with the practicality of leading in context, you know the being with people, the two by two, how do those two balance out together? I sometimes feel like we’re tempted by classes like this; we’re tempted by like say all we need is another curriculum. When clearly obviously you know it’s more than that. h, balance that out. How does that work out for you guys at at Kingsway? Phil Caporale — Yeah, well and George kind of alluded to it a few moments ago. One of the things that we do is we we want it to be by invitation. So until a couple of months ago during a vision so a recent vision series, we hadn’t really talked about Leader Track. Our so our church knows about Kingsway Leadership School, of course… Rich Birch — Right. Phil Caporale — …but Leader Track has always been this shoulder tap, this personal invite from a ministry leader because we wanted to make sure that these people were already they already have a lot of skin in the game. They’re already leading, many of them are leading really well and we’ve identified, our teams identified in them the potential to to take on more, and to and to grow their influence by leading people. Ah, one of the gaps that we noticed, Rich, in our church was between staff and ministry leaders, and others that have led others is this this group of leaders of leaders. How could we get somebody to coach others. Ah, we don’t use this term but it would be like a team captain really where where they’re investing themselves into others, from a volunteer standpoint, which could potentially be a base for us to hire potential staff someday. That’s always a thing that we’re keeping in mind, but it’s not the desired or ah intended end result. Phil Caporale — So watching people already serve. They’re already in involved, embedded into the life of the church. This is stuff that we’re seeing on display in who they are, and how how consistent they’re involved in the life of the church, and then coming alongside of them and going hey… The content that we provided, a lot of we make it very interactive. We don’t want to just get up and lecture. They can get the information anywhere. We’ve just tried to do our best to contextualize it. And then create even within that large group of the 22 we took through it, um, we put them around small tables. And half of the evening, half of the 3 hours we were together was then building community. And we didn’t ask any of them to do this but one of the neat things that happened out of that, Rich, was very early on they started exchanging numbers together. They were in text threads. They were… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Phil Caporale — …I heard from some that I’m close to, Hey we’re we’re exchanging a prayer requests and so-and-so showed up in my house to encourage me. And nothing we ever said, we just instead of teaching in in rows, like a classroom setting, we said let’s do it around tables so we can naturally facilitate community. And that kind of caught on like wildfire and and expedited a process of us going, Hey here’s some content and curriculum we want to help you with, and if you’ll learn to lead yourself well, you’re going to be able to lead others just as well. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Yeah and I do think this whole leader of leaders issue, man, there’s so many of our churches we we struggle with this. We we’re looking for people to just do stuff for us, if I can be too if I can be a little too pointed. We’re looking for people who just if you could just stand here and hand out these programs, or you could just you know helping kids ministry. As opposed to, man, I want you to lead a group of leaders to make a difference. Um George, let’s talk about the Kingsway Leadership School. Let’s talk through this. Ah give us this so give us a sense of, you know, kind of what is offered through that. How does it work? How is it partnership kind of give us an overview and then let’s dig into it. So give us an overview there, George. George Probasco — Yeah, so we’re going into our seventh year come… Rich Birch — Amazing. George Probasco — …comes fall. So we’ve learned a ton over the years, Rich. I mean a ton. We had to add and bring in some values for our students because we just our culture was just all over the place, and that’s one of the things that I would just say strongly is that we have to, when you’re developing a leadership culture in your church, you need to have strong values, whether it be church values or if you have like a program that you’re taking your your students through, you have to have values. So that’s one of the things that we instituted. George Probasco — But an overview, we offer 15 degrees… Rich Birch — Wow! George Probasco — …in partnership with Southeastern University. Ah, five of those are which are masters degrees. And so students are able to come for our leadership development within the church, so we don’t teach any SU academic accredited courses here in the church – that is all online only. What we do is we come alongside of Southeastern University and we’re ah, developing the student’s heart and hands. George Probasco — And so we like to break it down into three categories heart, head, and hand. So the head component would be SEU’s partnership with us. The heart component is leadership development, character development. That’s actually what our pastoral staff and and leaders are actually doing and in our students and developing in our students. And then we love to develop our students’ hands, and that’s through ministry practicum. George Probasco — So the cool thing about Southeastern’s partnership, if you’re an extension site, is every college student gets college credits through something called practicum. That is an actual college level course through Southeastern University. And if you’re a bachelor uh, degree student or looking to acquire your bachelor degree, that’s twenty four college credits that a student can earn through ministry practicum. So what that means is if they’re serving in their local church, working with under a ministry leader, shadowing them, um, really learning from them, they are logging what they are doing in the ministry and they’re getting college credits for that. So that’s a big deal. So long, the days are over I would say with students going away to college, especially ministry students, not being developed, rather they’re just getting all head knowledge and then no practical ministry experience. So we’re looking to really, again, meet that need where we can provide an academic degree for our students, but also train them up and and give them practical ministry experience. So. Rich Birch — Now so talk to me through ah, you know, so SEU is a fantastic school, very innovative. This is not a, they’re great school. I love those guys. They’re good people so there’s no negative in all of this. But why the partnership with them? What what about them specifically you would say, hey ah, you know they’re good people to work with? Phil why don’t you take this what what was you know, kind of what drew you to a partnership with them? Why is that been a great connection? How does that how has that been for you guys? Phil Caporale — Yeah, we um we we early on as we were long um, going through what I mentioned earlier, Protégé, Rich, which was developed out of what Leader Track was the first time our first iteration of it. We had come into contact with a couple people, 3 or 4 actually, that said, hey you should look into SEU. They’re making college education really affordable. And I was um I was really excited about that because I’ve I’ve always I’ve always felt like there’s been these two sides of it, and neither one really fully met the um, the requirements of what it would look like for people that, especially wanted to pursue full-time vocational ministry. Phil Caporale — And what I mean by that is we had people that would have a lot of experience in in church culture, but were missing that educational, the theology, the doctrine understanding of the scriptures, and the the formal education there. And then there were other people, to George’s point of moment they ago, Rich, that were coming out of bible colleges with almost you know, zero zero ministry practical ministry experience. So when we heard of the partnership with SEU, we did some exploration, we connected with them on some calls, and had them come up and visit us. And and the fact that they could package that and a student would never have to leave Jersey, and stay involved in their local church, do it very affordable for less than a third of the cost. There were a lot of um, very obvious pros to that. And we said, all right, well let’s let’s dig into that a little bit more. And as we did we realized that we can bring really the the crux of the discipleship, and and they can they can get an idea of what it means to here’s what a follower of Christ looks like as they’re growing, as they’re learning the lead, as they’re pursuing potentially vocational ministry. Um, and it it very quickly became appealing. Phil Caporale — It’s funny, Rich, about half of our student body through the last six plus years has not even been within our own church. It was other churches that kids were coming out of youth ministry… Rich Birch — Oh really? Interesting. Phil Caporale — …other adults that were serving. Rich Birch — Okay. Phil Caporale — Because it allowed… pastors were interested because they’re like wait a second guys. You mean my this person from my church doesn’t need to go down to Florida for 4 years? Like no, no, they can stay involved in your church. We’ll do the discipleship part, you offer the practicum and SEU… So then it was like this three-headed partnership. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s really cool. Phil Caporale — Um, and that’s appealed to a lot of people, you know. And and and I think the fact, especially in this day and age, where where you don’t have to go away, and it’s going to cut the cost down, again, until less than a third, that there’s ah, there’s obviously an appealing nature to that. Um, but the fact that they cannot just get practical ministry experience, but stay in that church which they’re part of, perhaps even grown up in, um, really continues to benefit, and feed that, and strengthen the local church. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s fantastic. Love it. So so good. George, give me a sense of the kind of week-in week-out for a student, you know, that’s engaging. What does that look like? How do they, you know, how do they connect with with with you guys? What’s that all again, kind of give us it from from their perspective. What does that look like when so, you know, when they’re in class or what I don’t even share the language you use. George Probasco — Sure. Rich Birch — When they’re you know when they’re engaged, what’s that look like? George Probasco — Yeah, sure. So students gather on Wednesday evenings from 6 to 9. We’ll feed our students. A lot of them have jobs, full time jobs, so they’re doing other things. Um, and that’s another thing about ah Southeastern is that it is affordable and students are able to work a part-time job, or work full-time and almost nearly knock out their their student debt right away. So um… Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great. George Probasco — …but so a lot of them are coming in from 6 to 9, and then what we’ll do is we’ll we’ll do some leadership development, we’ll have chapel, and then we’ll do some character development as well with them. And then Sundays is ah all hands on deck ministry day. So we are exposing them to to ministry. And we take our year one students through ah kind of a general practicum is what we call it. And we rotate them through all the various ministries here at ah at the local church. And we’re teaching them and giving them a a well-rounded exposure to Kingsway Church Min. So it’s not the end all be all, but it’s just the way how we do it in our context. George Probasco — And so they’re working with different ministry leaders, and they’re being exposed to those ministries. And and a lot of this is and I say and I highly recommend that because what it does is it’s going to build some character. For students that just want to get up on a platform and and start speaking, well we know that that’s not realistic. And so we’re going to throw them in the kids’ ministry. We’re going to throw them in ah, you know, around teenagers or you know we’re going to really help build that character within them because that’s just what we do. And then for year two, three and four what we do is um, we take our students and we allow them to choose their ministry focus. And so… Rich Birch — Okay. George Probasco — …we’ll we’ll get around our our practicum leaders. So one of them being our our youth pastor, and if if a student’s interested in that that our youth pastor becomes responsible for that student. And so literally they have their own curriculum that they have built to develop help develop our students ah, to train them up to be a youth pastor or whatever the gap is. Rich Birch — Love that. So good. Phil, a part of what you’ve talked about is this whole vocational ministry push, that a part of what… and we all know this, right? Like anybody that’s that isn’t just heads down in their local, you know, they realize, gosh, there’s a giant leadership crisis in every church. I was literally just this week talking to some leaders in a particular movement, they were saying hey we’re going to 1500 pastors retiring—and then we all know these statistics—1500 pastors retiring in the next ten years, and they’re graduating, I think it was 8 per year out of their ministry school. Phil Caporale — Wow. Rich Birch — So it’s like, Hey this is going to be a problem. We’re trying to, you know, so what has that what’s kind of been the output on that side? I know not all of these people are going to end up in vocational ministry, but what has that looked like, you know, give us some context on what that looks like, Phil? Phil Caporale — Yeah, um, some of them um, it really gets it gets interesting, Rich, in the sense of placement. One of the things we are very upfront with about students that are interested in the school, in Kingsway Leadership School, is to tell them, Hey there’s no guarantee of placement upon graduation, whether it’s two years, four years, or six years that you’re with us, but we’re going to continue to walk alongside of you. And because of, you know, our network of churches and the connections that we have to a bunch of them um, we’ve been able to and minimally hook up um a student that’s finishing graduating the program, graduating the school with a degree and whatnot with other local churches and their pastors to at least entertain a conversation that sometimes has… Rich Birch — Right. Phil Caporale — …even um, you know turned into an interview, or them pursuing you know ministry credentials, or going down another path ah similar route to be involved in in their local church, or or Kingsway, whatever whatever the case might be. So I think one of the things is always having keeping that out in front of them, especially for those, Rich, that feel or sensing and working through a call to vocational missionary, not just pastoring but even missionary. We have a girl coming through our school right now that where she just finished up her her grad degree, is our first grad student. So she’s got this master she’s got this this Masters of Divinity and she’s preparing to go to India on a two-year term… Rich Birch — Oh wow. Phil Caporale — …as a missionary associate. and so that’s been a big deal. She got to go on that as a scholarship for being part of the school this past this past fall, and just felt a real tug and pull in her heart from the Lord to be there. So she’s pursuing that now and I could certainly see her um, becoming a career missionary. Um, there’s a strong call in her life for that, but she’s really leaned into it. And she’s gotten that practicum experience… Rich Birch — Right. Phil Caporale — …that George just detailed a moment ago with um, one of our pastors who’s over missions, and has been able to really lean into that, been able to really draw from that. And not just from our pastor that’s leading her in that, but the connections that that Pastor has as well to some other pastors, to some other missionaries that has opened this girl’s scope of potential resource and influence up so she can explore this call. Rich Birch — Yeah, this is fantastic. I love this. I love what you guys are doing here. I think there’s so much for us to learn from and continue to lean in on. George, when you think about um you know individual students, is there like similar to the student we just heard about, are there any other stories or kind of insights of like, here’s kind of how this is working out practically in in someone’s life? George Probasco — Yeah I have a student actually, when I transitioned in into the campus pastor role in October of ’22, we had a ah vacant area also I’ve I’ve identified in at the campus. Rich Birch — Okay, yeah. George Probasco — And so one of our students one of our students is so high capacity. He actually um, came from another church where he was briefly youth pastoring, but he’s now with Kingsway and in in our program. And part of his practicum it just so happened to work out where he was going to be coming down to the campus with me this year. And so now I have him overseeing um, our guest experience teams at our campus. And um so he’s responsible for for five teams in particular, and caring and pastoring for them. And so that’s just providing alongside of his academics very real ah, very real experience. And and the reason why I say that is because these are just some things that textbooks don’t train you up on. Rich Birch — Right. George Probasco — These are things that ah they don’t they don’t tell you how to have a hard conversations, difficult conversations. You just kind of have to be thrown into that. And there’s a lot of coaching with me me and him you know, again, it’s a lot of one on one, so anything that he’s doing, we’re we’re talking about it afterwards. So that’s where the discipleship comes in. Rich Birch — Love that. Yeah I love that and that that’s been my like very similar experience particularly as people have transitioned into our churches from um, you know the marketplace, is that there is like there’s the academic side that we can deal with it’s like okay you know you can you can learn. There’s a certain amount of theological stuff you can learn. You can take courses, but there is some. There’s real issues around how do we help people get the practical insights around, you know, when you’re sitting across the table for the first time and someone talks about that they want to leave their spouse. You know you know, that the first minute of your response there is really important. And you know you don’t want people being like, I don’t know I’ve never really thought about that before. And so what you guys are doing is, you know, in such a supportive environment is is enabling that kind of thing I think that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — Well, Phil, why don’t we give you the last word. If I was a ah church leader that was listening in today that was saying, man, I think we need to really step up our game on this front. We need to we need to look to grow. What would be some of those first steps that we should take, whether it’s leader track or maybe even pursuing something more robust like, you know, Kingsway Leadership School. What would be some of those first steps that you would encourage leaders to be thinking about today? Phil Caporale — Yeah I think I think part of the the first thing ah a leader needs to do is is really look at—this is very practical—look at their calendar and of their week, let’s just call it a 40 hour work week as a pastor or ministry director on staff at a church, and and ask ourselves right now, How many hours a week am I giving to intentional and deliberate leadership development? Um, ah one of the things that we put in front of our staff, it hasn’t been a hard and fast rule, but, you know, could you take up to a day a week, six to 8 hours a week, where you’re developing others. In other words, our theme this year for our our team, Rich, is um, our staff is to I just call it LTO – you’re going to lead through others. We have to lead through others. We can’t just think, hey that’s a good idea, or someday I hope to get to it. No, it’s like we have to, right? Some of us are going to be natural just doers all the time, others of us do have a proficiency to develop others, but we’re really trying to move our whole staff to think, you know, I’m here to develop others; I have to lead other people through those that are right in front of me. Phil Caporale — And so the practical, my the first thought again practical is just looking at the calendar and it’s not necessarily a full day, like I’m just going to pick oh Thursday’s the leadership development day. It may be a two hour pocket here, and a three hour window there. But what does that look like and how do I continue to do that to make an intentional investment in other people? Because look we all know that battle right of of urgent versus important. But one of the things I’ve learned through ministry and in my experience, and probably took me a little longer to learn than I care to admit is that, yeah, you’re always going to have the urgent, but if you’ll if you’ll focus on what’s important, right? In this conversation we’re talking about developing leaders of leaders. If you’ll give more time to focus on what’s important, it will keep some of the urgent at bay. Not all of it. There’s always going to be the emergency situations, of course, but part of the urgency that creeps up at times is our lack of being purposeful and intentional in building leaders. Phil Caporale — I think back to Exodus 18, right? This the first this is like this is like the um Old Testament version of Ephesians 4 when when Moses is kind of burned out. He’s judging all the cases and his father-in-law Jethro goes, You can’t do this, right? You got to find some leaders that can lead tens and fifties and hundreds and a thousand. And and he said at the end of that, and we often overlook this part, he said if you’ll do this, then you’ll be able to endure and the people will go home in peace. And I just thought about that like longevity and ministry. If if God’s call in our life is not just for a season but it’s for all our lives, and for those of us that are called to pastoral ministry, um, that man, let’s do this well. Let’s look to make sure that we endure and we pace well through this. And others are going to go home in peace. But there’s also tied to that word a sense of fulfillment in their own lives, you know? Phil Caporale — And again kind of back to earlier in the conversation when you see that life-giving joy come out of others, it adds to your your sense of of purpose being fulfilled as well. So I think it’s it’s as as as simple even as going, hey look at my calendar how many how many meetings have I had with other people this week? Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Phil Caporale — Am I grabbing lunch or coffee with anybody and making an intentional investment into that time? And then as ministry leaders right on staff I would think um, if I’m in the executive pastor role or lead paster role or on the lead team, what are we doing to train our staff? I realized that a large portion of my job I would I would I would contend that about 25% of what I do is thinking about how I’m training the staff to lead through others. Because if I don’t train them, if I don’t model it to them, I’m I’m going to get the same thing from them, right? So it’s got to be something that’s real. So where we can invite people like Paul said, hey you follow my example as I follow the example of Christ. And and as we do that, it it catches on. And it takes a little bit of time and you’re always going to have those on the team or on the staff potentially that are a little intimidated by it. I don’t want other people to pick up my bad habits, or I’m not quite sure to do this. So we just leverage our chapel every week. We have a two hour chapel where we’ll worship and pray together. And then the second hour of most of that is training. It’s it’s it’s hey let’s get into the nuts and bolts. This was what it looks like, not just philosophically or theoretically to train leaders. But this is how we’re gonna do it. Phil Caporale — And then keeping yourself available. I think as as the point person or if you’re leading a ministry um to just say to the rest of your staff or your team or those that report to you, hey I’m available and I’ll continue to help develop you as you develop others. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. I really appreciate this conversation today, guys. This has been super helpful and inspiring. Really, really good. George, um, if people want to connect with you, with the church with you know to kind of follow along, where do we want to send them online, just as we wrap up today’s conversation? George Probasco — Yeah, they can ah email me personally gprobasco@kingsway.church Rich Birch — Oh great, good stuff. And then kingsway.church for everything else if they want to track along. Well, appreciate you guys being here today. Thanks so much, and always good to talk to leaders from Jersey. So thanks for being here today. Phil Caporale — Yeah, it was a blast, Rich, thanks for having us. Rich Birch — Thank you. George Probasco — Thanks for having us, Rich.

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lisa Penberthy, a church leader and consultant with 20 years of experience and an M.Div and MBA in nonprofit management. She is currently serving as the COO at Dannah Investment Group and is passionate about stewarding people’s callings as well as church resources. Are you a church leader looking to encourage and empower more women to step into their callings in your ministry? Listen in as Lisa provides practical coaching on identifying blind spots, communicating personal boundaries, and advocating for next generation women leaders. Identify what’s missing. // When it comes to women in church leadership, we tend to look at the theological side of the conversation. However, practically speaking we need to recognize that it comes down to helping women fulfill their callings. If you’re fully supportive of them, then the question becomes, how do you help empower them by removing obstacles and providing practical support? Start by looking at the blind spots in your church. If none of your executive leaders are women then you’re missing part of the conversation. Pay attention to how many times women have spoken from the stage or given a message at your church. Circle back. // Women may identify that they have a ministry calling but aren’t ready to step into it due to their current family responsibilities. Male leaders may want to ask these women to serve in leadership, but also don’t want to put pressure on them. Remember that it’s important to circle back to these women and present them with leadership opportunities again. Come back to the conversation and hold the women accountable rather than only asking once and assuming they’ll always say no. Build trust. // Acknowledge the tension around social interactions with male and female leaders. Each individual needs to establish personal boundaries and points of accountability in their life and leadership. Have honest conversations about those barriers so there’s a layer of trust between the male and female staff and women aren’t automatically omitted from leadership opportunities and interactions. With the right benchmarks and boundaries in place, men and women should be able to travel together or be alone in a room for confidential meetings without hesitancy. Never isolate or penalize women because of your individual struggles. Upfront communication. // When hiring women on staff, communicate during the interview any limitations in the leadership relationship between men and women. Be forthright about personal boundaries in your leadership so the woman being interviewed can decide whether she is comfortable with them or not. If this conversation isn’t initiated by the interviewer, the woman needs to have the courage to bring it up so she will know where she might be held back in her calling. Raising concerns. // If a situation occurs that causes a woman to no longer feel comfortable with current boundaries, she has to be brave enough to raise the concern. It doesn’t have to be with her superior, but she needs to come forward. It can be with the church’s HR or the administrative people who handle paychecks, or even the advisory board. She should find the person that is safe to talk to and have a conversation early after any incidents happen. Encourage upcoming leaders. // Advocate for next generation women leaders in every way you can to encourage them in their work. Invest in upcoming female leaders by giving them opportunities, such as internships, to show their potential. Observe them in their own environments and give them increased responsibility. Discipling women. // Most churches have more women in the congregation than men. But if there are more women in the seats and fewer women on the platform, then we’re not doing a good job of reaching and discipling the people God has brought to us. We should see more women in leadership throughout all areas of the church, not just the nursery and children’s ministry. To connect with Lisa you can meet her at the XP Summit on May 16 & 17, 2023 or you can email her. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Chemistry Staffing One of the things that they never teach you in seminary is when to move on from your current church. Over the last couple of years, we have been having a TON of conversations about this with pastors all over the United States. Of all the ministry decisions you make, leaving your position will be the toughest. Download this two-in-one resource that walks you through the decision-making process. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Super excited for today’s conversation with my new friend, Lisa Penberthy. She is just incredible leader that you’re going to want to listen in and lean in with. Ah she was executive pastor of operations at San Diego Rock – if you don’t know this church of fantastic ah organization. She’s been a church leader and consultant with twenty plus years of experience. Has both an M.Div and MBA, which is fantastic, in nonprofit management. Ah she currently is serving as the COO at Dana Investment group. She’s passionate really about helping churches and leaders steward their calling and church resources. Ah, Lisa welcome to the show. So glad that you’re here. Lisa Penberthy — Rich, thanks for the invite. It’s great to be with you. Rich Birch — Yeah I’m so honored that you are giving us some time today. This is going to be good. Fill out the picture there. What did I miss? What else do we want people to know? I know it’s so hard to, you know, how do I you know what what what do I want people to know about me. Lisa Penberthy — What I want people to know about me? Um I believe in the local church. I have served in every capacity of the local church, minus a men’s pastor. So I started out ministry um, as a volunteer junior high youth leader, but a paid janitor. So I was paid to clean the toilets and I volunteered to serve the junior highers, and boy, some days it felt the same. Rich Birch — Oh Gosh. Oh my goodness. That’s hilarious. I love that. So good. Lisa Penberthy — But yeah, so so those are local church is where it’s at for me. I’ve served in various capacities at denominational levels. So I’m ordained minister with the Foursquare Church. Rich Birch — Oh great. Lisa Penberthy — And served by pastoring local church years were mainly in the Foursquare Church. And then I served our denomination both at what Foursquare would call the district level that serves the local church directly, and then the national level that serves all of the US churches. Rich Birch — I love it. Lisa Penberthy — So it’s an honor to serve twenty plus years in those capacities. Rich Birch — Yeah I love it. Lisa Penberthy — And then I love to teach. Rich Birch — Oh good. Nice. And where where where… Lisa Penberthy — So I’ve… Rich Birch — And that’s been both in the local church context and other contexts? Tell us about that. Lisa Penberthy — Yeah, so Life Pacific University and and then Ministry Institute. So Rock School of Ministry when I was at the Rock and I currently teach at Western Ministry Institute which is a Foursquare Ministry Institute. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Well I’m so honored that you would be on today to to tackle this issue particularly. Ah so what we’re talking about today really is how can we as church churches and church leaders, people who are charged with leading the church, really ah, encourage, raise up ah particularly female, women leaders in our our churches. I think my assumption is that there are people that are listening in today that although cognitively might agree, hey they look around their circles and they’re like there’s just way too many guys here; there have to be more women that ah, that should be leading in our context. But there must be something that’s going on that we’re not encouraging women to take it in these steps. Or we’re providing we’re kind of there’s some something that we’re doing that’s not working right. And I want to I want to, you offered, which I appreciate to help us kind of think about these issues today, and we want to kind of wrestle through that. Rich Birch — So what should we be thinking about? What when when we think about this issue, let’s assume we’re in that picture we look around and we say but there’s just there’s just too many guys here. How can we, not that guys are bad, but how can we encourage ah you know more women to lead within our context? Lisa Penberthy — Yeah, great question and my focus is really practical in in just identifying what’s missing. When you sit down at a table, you’ve gathered people to make decisions and you look around and you don’t see any women. Um it it begs the question are we missing part of the conversation? And so starting out really practical is looking around the table – who’s at the tables that you go to? We tend to focus on the theological side in the conversation. But really we need to get beyond that and look at the practical aspect of um seeing women fulfill their calling. So if women know that they’re called, you’ve already determined that that’s where you stand because that’s your belief, then then let’s figure out how to do it. Lisa Penberthy — So the practical ways look around the table are there women look at your platform, scroll through all of your um, Sunday sermons that you have put on your website and count how many times a woman has spoken. If you can’t find any times then you’ve probably missed the mark. If you’re only seeing it once or twice, but you’ve had 20 plus guest speakers, then you’ve probably fallen a little short now. Lisa Penberthy — Now if if the primary speaker is just the lead pastor and no one else covers the pulpit then it is what it is. But if you bring guests in for your pulpit, if you bring guests in to speak, and you don’t see any women, then you should probably look a little deeper on your bench. Rich Birch — Love that. I love that just even really practical, you know, try that. That’s a potential blind Spot we might have. Is that we’re not um, you know we’re not calling in, you know, female guest speakers when we you know when we are bringing in guest guest speakers. That’s great. What would be some other common and blind spots that you see when in churches that would hold ah conviction that would say, yeah we were we’re open to women women leading, but there’s just like a you know there’s just a blind spot that we just don’t see. Are any others that come up? Lisa Penberthy — Absolutely. Um, male leaders default to ah they need to be in the home. And not because they think that that not because that’s their belief, but because they feel that a woman will say no. And so they don’t even ask women because the woman is focused on their young children or they’re ah really focused on their family, they’re the soccer mom. And so they they don’t want to interrupt or they have spoken to a woman in the past that has said, I’m really busy now – come back to me, and they don’t come back. Lisa Penberthy — So a really simple way to do that is when you identify a woman who is strong and called, and you know that um ministry speaking, teaching is in their future, and they say, you know what? I really want the first five years of my kids to focus on the first five years. There’s nothing wrong with that. But what they really need is that person that circles back after the first five years and says okay, five years is up. Let’s talk again. So coming back to the conversation; hold the women accountable. They’re the ones that said, I see that call in my life; I just want to wait. And so finding that balance. And really, that’s not everyone. When I started going, for me, it was this is my priority. My husband and I waited 10 years for the kids because I wanted to go after my calls so that when the kids came along, I knew the difference of my calling as a mother, and my calling as a pastor. Because they are two very different things that I know God has prepared me for. Rich Birch — Um, love that. I know, um, so first of all I appreciate you pushing us on this. We want to keep leaning in here and finding ways that we could be creating undo barriers that that we shouldn’t you know that aren’t there. I know for me one of them that I’ve seen in my own leadership is the um is the unexpected kind of social stuff. Hey we’re going, hey let’s go out for lunch. Or hey we’re going to you know, whatever go to a game together. You know those kinds of things. Ah, talk us through ah well is that a problem am I being anxious about stuff I shouldn’t be anxious about? Or is there is there a real issue there that we need to think about? Lisa Penberthy — So this is a tension point. And everybody has to individually determine where they sit. For me, I have traveled the world with male colleagues because it’s a part of what I’m called to do. Rich Birch – Yep. Lisa Penberthy — And my gender doesn’t limit my calling. My choices can limit it. My actions can limit it. But my gender shouldn’t. And so I have put in personal benchmarks and points of accountability accountability into my life and leadership that affords me opportunity to sit in a meeting room with just me and one male. Um, travel the world with just me and one male. Um, but that’s because of the things I’ve put in place for my accountability. And I know my weaknesses and that’s not my weakness. And now I won’t know the male’s weakness. And so open conversations become important. Knowing who you’re working with, knowing who you’re traveling with, um, putting that layer of trust in place becomes important. Lisa Penberthy — Um, so so navigating those pieces is really important. So if there is a hesitancy on a male’s end of being in a room um with a woman because I’ve I’ve experienced that. And I had to ask a question of a male that said, is this because you don’t trust me, or you don’t trust yourself? And so and then that conversation was had. And then I took it ah a layer deeper and said, okay you trust me, you trust yourself. Is this a commitment to your spouse because I want to honor those things, but I also don’t want those things to keep us from being effective in the mission. And so let’s put it all out on the table. Never isolate a woman or keep from having a lunch with the opposite sex because of that barrier. Have the conversations up front. Because the reality in today’s day and age is you don’t know who’s sitting across from the table. You could have a transgender across the table. You could have um someone ah that doesn’t that is attracted to same sex and you don’t know and so… Rich Birch — Yep. Lisa Penberthy — …having a male and a male at the table is no different today than having a male and a female. Rich Birch — Right. Lisa Penberthy — Now if this is your staff and someone you know then there should also be that same level of trust. You’re trusting where it’s at. So putting in your marks of accountability. And if this is an area you struggle with as a leader, you need to be vulnerable enough to say, hey I need to do it different. This isn’t about you. This is about me. Own up to your stuff. And so so it’s a real tension, and everybody has different markers and that’s the reality of the conversation is your personal barriers and obstacles, not the large picture gender barriers and obstacles, because we’re isolating all women because of our individual struggles. Rich Birch — Yeah, okay, so this is really good, Lisa. I appreciate this. Can you give us some coaching here. So I um, so let’s assume I’m I’m a leader, I’m a male leader who does have conviction around saying hey I one of my own personal convictions is um, I I don’t want to meet alone. I won’t I won’t do the lunch I won’t that’s with with a a female. I don’t know how let’s say I don’t know how to say that without it sounding like I think you’re going to try to seduce me. Or I think I’m going to you know I’m like totally turned on by you. Like I don’t know how to how do I say that in a way. What’s how what can give us some language. Lisa Penberthy — Right. Rich Birch — Give us some coaching around how do we use that language? What what would you what would you how would you coach coach us on that? Lisa Penberthy — Absolutely. First, this conversation should come out in the interview process. Rich Birch — Okay, good, good, good. Lisa Penberthy — The woman coming in should know this before. She should know that there’s going to be limitations in the leadership relationship. Rich Birch — Very good. Okay, good. Lisa Penberthy — So this should come out in the interview process. And the comfort level of that, whether it comes from the senior leader making the hire, or it comes from the ah HR admin whoever does the hiring process. Either way, that’s where it should come out. The the female leader should not be blindsided… Rich Birch — Right. Lisa Penberthy — …um in the role six months in, discovering everybody else got a one-on-one. Everybody else goes to lunch one-on-one, but I don’t. Why? So that’s the wrong time to find out, and the wrong conversation in which to find out. So my first recommendation in this, have that conversation in the interview process. Let the woman make the decision to say, you know what? I’m still all in. I’m okay with that. Here’s the boundaries. Let’s work through this. Um, so what to say and how to say it is is really just coming forth being forthright and saying I have my personal boundaries and leadership, and here they are. You wouldn’t hesitate to say um I have date night with my spouse and I leave at five o’clock on Thursday. So if you’re not going to hesitate to say, I’ve got to be at my kids’ baseball game on Tuesday so I’m leaving. If you’re not going to hesitate on those things, then you need to not hesitate on this conversation. Because this conversation impacts someone else’s calling. So you need to be even more forthright with it. And and the comfort level comes in all the time. That’s that’s always a question. That’s always well I’m not comfortable because then as you said it could really spark a, I’m coming on to you. That’s when you have that other person. That’s why the interview’s a great place because typically the interview involves multiple people. So then that can be had um in a group setting. So so those questions, and as a woman I encourage you to ask the question so that it’s brought out. Lisa Penberthy — So in interviews that I’ve had I’ve asked, what’s your position? Where will I see it? Where will I be held back that other people aren’t? Is there opportunity? And so as a woman I would say ask the question. It is you need to know what you’re getting into because you can’t get upset for a question you didn’t ask. Lisa Penberthy — And on the the male leader side I would say if you know that you have hard and fast boundaries and rules, share them upfront. Um, if if you don’t have windows in your doors in your office, get those windows in. Because I wholeheartedly believe every door should have a window on it. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Lisa Penberthy — But I also believe once that window’s there, you can shut the door and have a conversation. And so um, so it’s the balance of what have you done to give space for gender mentoring gender leadership conversations to happen. What have you done to make space for that? And what have you done to put in the obstacles? So if you haven’t put that window in, that’s an obstacle that you’ve put in. You’ve chosen that. Because now you have to leave the door open now those confidential conversations – I mean in my role as an Operations Pastor, all the confidential conversations are there. HR questions and conversations. Finance… Rich Birch — Yes, so true. Lisa Penberthy — …budgets, layoffs. All of those are closed door conversations that I can’t have unless there’s that window because that’s one of my boundaries. There there needs to be a window or at least a window somewhere that people can walk by. So if it’s not in the door, you know, there’s the window in the door for where the assistant accesses or however, that works but somewhere there is that layer of accountability there. Rich Birch — Yeah, I appreciate that. You know I do fair amount of coaching with churches where I’m on site and just recently I was at a church where there weren’t windows in their office doors. And I found it surprising I was like oh well, this still exists. Like I was like um and there was a fairly new building and as you actually we we brought it Up. We talked I talked about it. Because I was like, yeah, how does that like you know and so they choose to do the door open thing. And then I asked that exact same question which is like okay so what happens when there’s a you know a conversation that you can have the door open for um because of the nature of it. And it kind of got into this like, well ah it doesn’t really happen. And I was like, okay well, that’s Interesting. It’s just interesting, right? Lisa Penberthy — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — It’s interesting to see how people you know, operate. Um, so what about on that you know what about on the balance side. Let’s say that or that you know, kind of the other piece of that that puzzle. Let’s say I am a female leader who is um, you know, um, you know sometimes our convictions our um, our comfortable the way we our comfortableness changes in scenarios. Life is different maybe than when we started. Ah, how would you encourage a female leader to try to speak to this, if their own personal conviction has changed on this. It’s like hey you know I was comfortable but I’m not I’m no longer comfortable. Um, the the reason why I flag this is because there are too many churches where people have been taken advantage of. And so how do we create um, you know, ah a boundary there that’s reasonable. Um, yeah, talk us through that. What does that look like? Lisa Penberthy — Yeah, so in this area, it’s true. They do, the the position changes. It’s they’re they’re comfortable when they’re hired and and they’re in um, the the blissful state, and then something happens something a a statement’s made, a conversations had, and it changes the dynamics of the the comfort level. It changes the dynamics of the the leadership relationship, and so something has to shift. Um, for for women they have to be brave enough and and this is hard to even say, but they have to be brave enough to raise the concern. Now they don’t have to raise the concern to their superior. That’s not where the conversation usually starts. They need to raise the concern um, with within a peer context, within HR. I know most churches don’t have HR so that’s ah, that’s a hard statement to say. But but within that place like who writes your paycheck? That that technically is your HR person if your church is small and doesn’t have HR. Who writes the paycheck because that’s the administrative person that’s balancing labor laws. So let’s let’s put a little little technically. If that’s the person writing the paycheck then they’re the ones that have to know the labor laws. So that’s the person that I would send you to? Lisa Penberthy — Um if your church is super small and that’s all done through the senior pastor, then there has to be a church council… Rich Birch — Right. Lisa Penberthy — …an advisory board, something that is bringing the leadership structure. And and you don’t have to go to all of them, but find the one person that’s safe. Find that person that you can talk to to help have that conversation, or to go with you to have that conversation. Because sometimes that line was crossed and accountability needs to be put in place. And sometimes that line was crossed out of ignorance – an ignorance statement, a really unfortunate illustration in a sermon. It could be that simple. Rich Birch — Yep. Lisa Penberthy — Ah, that the line is crossed and that that comfort is lost. And so find that person to go to and have the conversation and ah appear or someone that holds your leader accountable. Those are the best go-tos to have that conversation with. And if there is still the comfort level to have the conversation um, have it early. And having it early means um, being brave enough to say, I have a concern… Rich Birch — Yes. Lisa Penberthy — …and I don’t know where I’m landing on this, but let’s figure this out together. You know, going back to the the sermon illustration, you said something in your sermon Sunday that makes me uncomfortable. And had you said that one on one with me, I would have had to leave the room. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, and that’s ah Lisa Penberthy — And so approaching it that way. Rich Birch — Yeah, in some ways I feel bad that I’ve steered the conversation in this direction because I don’t want to inject I think sometimes we it’s like we we come to the worst case scenario. But I do I do think we have to talk about it and I think as executive leaders who are leading particularly within the church, this is one of those areas where, and this has been a growth area for me over these last couple of years. I I realized, man, I need to be really clear with our team who is the advocate that they should go to if I as their leader or if they’re particular leaders to people that lead them do something say something that is that is inappropriate, that’s off off bounds. We have to be as clear as that with our people. Lisa Penberthy — Yes. Rich Birch — This is who you talk to… Lisa Penberthy — Yes. Rich Birch — …this is the advocate that is there on your behalf… Lisa Penberthy — Yes. Rich Birch — …um, that is outside of you know, that and that’s their job there. And you have to you have to identify somebody, you have to make it super obvious, say this is how you talk to them. Um, and you know that’s been a growth area for me even these in these years because I’m like, man, we can’t I don’t want someone to wonder in that moment. I’m not even sure to talk to about this, particularly if it’s about me… Lisa Penberthy — Absolutely. Rich Birch — …if I’m the person that ultimately this whole thing leads up to, man, I have to create, even more so, I have to create really clear ah, really clear lines there. Um, so another area of this is our own thoughts and beliefs and approaches to how we manage our home life versus how we manage in ah our leadership scenario at church. I think there sometimes can be a tension there where it’s like how we’ve decided how my spouse and I have decided to manage how decisions are made um, you know somebody ultimately has the tie-breaking vote. You know we’ve talked about that in our own marriage… Lisa Penberthy — Yes. Rich Birch — …who has that tie-breaking vote. Ah, but then maybe I and maybe even unwittingly, unknowingly import that into my leadership at church. Have you seen that before? Talk to talk us through that. Lisa Penberthy — Absolutely. So there is a big difference between your theological position and your marital preference. And and in that what I’m saying is in your theological position, you either lean mutualist, also known as egalitarian, or hierarchy also known as complementarian. So mutualist, which I prefer because we live and lead and are married and serve in a mutual submission. So mutualist. So in a mutualist relationship your role at the church and your role at the home may look very similar. However, um your role at home may look more hierarchy, and you know what it’s it’s okay because it’s your preference in your home. You you know what you believe, you know what the bible points you toward, but in your home you’re like, hey this is how we want to live our life. We want um the the husband to to be the decision maker. And I wouldn’t go as far as saying the head of the house because then we go in a whole different conversation and that’s not what we’re addressing. But the decision maker the one that has the final say when there’s a tie. The husband’s a tiebreaker. In in our home when there’s a tie the person who has the most knowledge and understanding of the topic is the tiebreaker. It’s not a default. It’s not, well you’re the male so make the decision. It’s well you know more about this so you make the final decision. So you know, I’ll I’ll use a very lighthearted, when my husband and I are talking about sushi, he is always going to make the decision. He knows, you know… Rich Birch — He’s the sushi expert. Love it. Lisa Penberthy — Exactly. But when when we’re talking about Mexican food, I’m gonna be the one that makes a decision. I grew up in Southern California; he grew up in Portland, Oregon. I’m going to make the final decision. So… Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Love it. Lisa Penberthy — …so it’s about knowledge, understanding, and experience in in a mutual relationship. Mutual submission means the best person, the best equipped makes the the decision when there’s a tie. Um in and so in your preference if if in your marriage it’s like it doesn’t matter that I know more about Mexican, I’m always going to default to him, and I’m going to stick to the food because it makes it more friendly conversation for everyone, um, it’s always going to default to the husband. That’s okay; that’s your marital preference. It’s not your theological position if you truly are um, a mutualist and egalitarian belief status. This is about the preference in your home. Lisa Penberthy — And they’re different. And and women get really hung up on that because they find themselves wanting a spouse like that. It’s you know the fairy tale. It’s the prince charming. It’s what they’ve been taught to desire. And really they don’t even know if that’s their desire until they’re in it. But it’s what we’ve been taught. I grew up wanting princesses and castles and then I really said actually I don’t. And my childhood dream adulthood was overseeing an orphanage all by myself because I didn’t need anyone else to help me do it. Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Lisa Penberthy — So, you know, it’s the balance. Um, and so everybody has to find that. So really, that’s that’s your preference and not necessarily your theological position. And being able to separate those out really helps you better understand where you land in leadership overall. And as um, the other side of the conversation, if you are hierarchy complementarian then all aspects of your life will align that way. Then your home and your ministry and and how you seek a job really will take you in that direction. Rich Birch — Right right. Okay, cool, interesting. That’s great. Super helpful for sure as we think as we try to you know discern you know, pull those those two aspects of our lives apart and try to think critically about that. So so helpful. Appreciate that. Rich Birch — When you think about um, particularly next generation women leaders, what can we do as leaders who maybe are, you know… So I’m thinking about executive pastor, leadin’ at a church, a female or male who’s like, hey I want to make sure that young leaders, particularly, are getting opportunity. Because it seems like a part of where this goes off the tracks is like very early on it’s like, you know, women coming out of school or like very early on it’s like we’re not creating the right opportunities. Any thoughts on that? What can we do on that front? Lisa Penberthy — Um, advocate for ’em in every way possible. Rich Birch — Okay, great. Yep. Lisa Penberthy — So um I have had interns in my office space, whether it’s at the church, whether it’s in the corporate world, interns in my office raising up the next generation. It’s one of the reasons why I teach it’s because I believe in the next generation of leaders. I teach as adjunct professor because I want to know that they still exist. And I want to know that there’s still interest because the next generation isn’t as interested there as um, as my generation. They’re they’re not the gung-ho um, grind. Then we skip from the millennials to Gen Z who are back to the grind. They’re like I want the job, I want I want the driver’s license. Look at the millennials, they’re like I’ll get my driver’s license one day. And so the balance of that. So being with younger, um younger leaders became really important to me. Lisa Penberthy — So how do you pour into them? First hang out with them. Know that they exist, know that they have something to offer. Because if all you’re seeing is kids’ noses in screens, you are not going to see the potential of what they have to offer. Give them opportunity to show their potential. And for for women specifically, and there’s many times me growing up in different roles and capacities as a woman that I was overlooked because it was, hey let’s go to the golf course. Hey, let’s go to the basketball court. And it wasn’t invited because those were hangouts. Let’s find the potential. Let’s have a conversation. Ah well there are women that play golf. I’m not one of them because my golf game stinks. My dad will tell you firsthand. Ah. Rich Birch — I love it. Yeah, love it. Yes Lisa Penberthy — I have attempted. But yeah, but but there are different ways to do that. Rich Birch — Yeah. Lisa Penberthy — So find those places where you can hang out. And of course you know a male taking just one female to go play golf isn’t reality, so the pickup game of basketball is probably your better bet. And there are women that play basketball. And we automatically think that… we automatically skip over the invite for the woman. Rich Birch — Right. Lisa Penberthy — So we have interns and you invite all the male interns. I’ve I’ve watched it happen in the offices that I’ve been… all the male interns were invited to go to the baseball games. Like guess what? I watch baseball every day. Literally every day. Whether it’s my kids playing, or the Dodgers playing I watch every day. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Lisa Penberthy — So um, so so those are just opportunities. Find those places where you can see the next generation of leaders, and women specifically, in their own environment. See what their potential is. Lisa Penberthy — Go where they’re at instead of taking them where you’re at. And so when you invest in the next generation, you really want to take the time to listen to them. And part of listening is observing. Rich Birch — Love it. Yes. Lisa Penberthy — See how they interact. See how they naturally lead in environments and then you have that follow up conversation that says, hey when I was watching you the other day at the basketball on the basketball court I saw you take charge. I saw this in you. So stirring up that potential in them really ignites them. And then specifically when it becomes the gender issue, go where they’re at. Find out what what they’re doing. And I’m not saying go get your hair done with them. I’m saying, go find, you know, if they’re on the volleyball court, then pick up volleyball instead of golf. So go where they’re at. Rich Birch — I love that. So good. Um, when you think about the like do you think the trend in this is heading in the right direction or the wrong direction? Like do you what’s your kind of ah, you know, your assessment on this – are we getting better as a church or or not? I can’t discern that. Lisa Penberthy — Um, we are not getting better as a church. Rich Birch — Right. Lisa Penberthy — And here’s the unfortunate thing… Rich Birch — Yeah. Lisa Penberthy — …but we’re not getting better as a society. So I’m currently in an executive women’s leadership program at Cornell University, and the statistics there are heartbreaking because our society is reflecting the same. And the the thing for me is the church has a mandate. Society doesn’t. So as a church we should be the front leaders. We should be the frontrunners. We should be out there saying, we empower everyone because the Kingdom and God’s people are more important than our bias on genders. Rich Birch — So good. So good. Lisa Penberthy — And this is not a salvific matter. This does not determine our salvation. Rich Birch — Right, right. Lisa Penberthy — So let’s go make this happen, and get out on the battlefield where salvation does matter. Rich Birch — Right. Lisa Penberthy — Let’s reach the people where it does make a difference. And so so our trends are still kind of holding steady with less women right around that 45 mark which is better than where it was back in the day. So right around that 45 mark is where we’ll see you know, depending on which statistic anywhere from 45 to 48 of women. Um, but if if you flip it and look at the other aspects of women, and we have more educated women than we do men. Rich Birch — Yes, yep, yep. Lisa Penberthy — More more women seek higher degrees but they’re doing all of this to seek the opportunities. Because you have to go after the degrees because a woman won’t be looked at without the degree, whereas it male would be. And so um, so women are going after those degrees so that they have an opportunity. They have a standing chance of well, I don’t have the experience because it wasn’t extended to me, but I have the education. And so finding that balance, getting that education has helped women, but the trends are not in our favor right now. Rich Birch — Interesting. Lisa Penberthy — And so that that is what I’m hoping people can discover even just in our conversation is there are ways to empower women. There are ways to advocate for them, and to release them, and to see them um take leadership roles that they haven’t had opportunity in the past. And we can see those numbers reflect those decisions. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Um so this might be another unfair question in this area. This is one of the great I think one of the great ironies of the modern church is so many churches I’ve been to if you were to stand back on a Sunday morning or a weekend service and look out over the, you know, over the audience, congregation, whatever you call it in your particular slice of christianity, um, you know that’s 60 maybe 70% women ah 30, 40% men, um and and some even higher some 80/20 you know it. It definitely skews. In fact, I think and one ah hundred percent of the churches I ever visit it always skews towards there being more women than men. That’s like a whole other topic of conversation. But then at the same time the leadership skews the other way. Um, where it’s you know, primarily men um, leading. I don’t even know if I have a question. I’m like what is happening here? Lisa Penberthy — Truth. Rich Birch — Like what is happening here? Like what what is all of that? Again I realize it’s an unfair question because it’s like it’s this giant issue that’s in front of us. How do you reflect on that you’ve obviously thought about these issues. Lisa Penberthy — Absolutely. Rich Birch — So you know what what do you think? What do you think? Lisa Penberthy — Yeah, so so seeing that, that very thing everything that you said I agree with. It’s the trends. It’s the truth. The numbers will show you. I mean every church that I’ve been into and I’ve been on a lot because I’ve worked a denomination where I that was my job was to visit churches. So um, there are more women in the seats. And if there are more women in the seats and fewer women on the platform, then we’re not reaching and discipling the women that God has brought to us, the people that God has brought to us. Rich Birch — That’s good. Lisa Penberthy — And so if we truly are raising up and discipling those that God has brought to us, then we should see more women in leadership. We should see more women leading even the simplest of things – our discipleship classes, and and our our trainings that we do um. And yet we oftentimes limit women to our children’s ministry, which ah looking back at my childhood, my favorite ah children’s pastor was a male. And my favorite Sunday school teacher was my grandfather who was obviously a male. And and not because well partly because he was my grandfather, but because he was full of wisdom and all of our friends loved him. He was funny. You know all of those things that you’d hope for. And if if the male voice is absent in the seats, how absent is it in the home. And who do our children need to hear from? Rich Birch — Yeah. sa Penberthy — But yet all of our Sunday school teachers are women. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. It’s yeah this is ah this is one of the, yeah, we you know didn’t even get into that the stereotyping of women into you know, serving in, you know, just in in “just” I say in quotes… Lisa Penberthy — Yes. Rich Birch — …in you know kids ministry areas. Um, that’s like ah you know that’s like, again, a whole other can of worms. Or in some movements you know you’ll have women are allowed to ah to go overseas and do roles with mission organizations. Lisa Penberthy — Yeah, do everything. Rich Birch — Yeah, that they are would not be allowed to do in the exact same organization, you know, on this, man, that’s just sad. Lisa Penberthy — Yes. Rich Birch — I’m like how are we still living in that world? That’s that’s crazy to me. Well this is… Lisa Penberthy — It is an unfortunate dynamic. Rich Birch — Yeah. Lisa, this has been an incredible conversation. I really appreciate you, you know hoping our… Listen, friends, our hope was to to to continue to talk about this issue, to raise this for us to think about it. Again, my assumption is that there are leaders that are listening in today that see all those problems, and are like I see all that. But it’s like hey, what steps can we take today? Give us a kind of final word as we wrap up. What what would you say to a leader that’s listening in that says, yeah I see all that stuff. What what could be a step or two that we should be taking, even practically this week… Lisa Penberthy — Yeah. ich Birch — …ah to try to create better, you know, equality equity in our organizations? Lisa Penberthy — First I would say lean into the discomfort. It’s unfamiliar territory for most leaders and you got to just lean into it. And then I would say set your own personal boundaries. And don’t penalize others because of your boundaries. Make them your own. Own up to them and make them yours and don’t penalize others. It’s very easy to have boundaries that penalize people from their calling. Lisa Penberthy — And then communicate. Make sure people know your boundaries. Make sure the woman that you’re inviting onto staff knows that there will be limits if you’re putting limitations in there. And if there aren’t limits, then live up to what you’ve committed to. Rich Birch — Yes, love it. Thank you so much, Lisa. If people want to track with you, we’re going to be at the XP Summit here coming up in very short times. Lisa Penberthy — Yes. Rich Birch — So hopefully folks are listening in that are coming to that we’ll get a chance to connect. But if people want to connect with you, track with you, where do we want to send them online? Lisa Penberthy — Oh that’s a great question. I’m in the process of launching my website. Rich Birch — Nice. Lisa Penberthy — Um, but ah and we have not secured the domain because my husband’s one step behind me. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s okay. Love it. All good. Lisa Penberthy — So um, but ah, but they they can reach me at lisa@penberthy.rocks Rich Birch — Perfect. Lisa Penberthy — So that’s my first name lisa@penberthy.rocks and that is my ministry address. Rich Birch — Love it. Perfect! Thanks so much, Lisa. I appreciate being here. Thank you for helping us think through and wrestle through these issues today. Lisa Penberthy — Absolutely. Thanks, Rich.

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Thompson, the Executive Pastor at The Living Stone Church in Denver, Colorado. How is your church executing on its vision? If you’re a church leader looking to create a practical framework for decision-making, a Vision Frame might be just what you need. Listen to this week’s podcast as Nick shares how to bridge the gap between vision and execution in your church. The Vision Frame. // The Living Stone has a big vision: to expand the movement of Jesus followers across Denver, the West, & the World. In order to move toward this goal, the church has implemented a Vision Frame. The Vision Frame is a bit like a picture frame with the church’s vision at the top of the frame, values on the right, strategy on the bottom, and measures on the left side. This framework helps the church discern whether to say yes or no to things because everything they consider needs to fit within this frame. If it can’t go through the frame, it needs to be tabled. Values. // Values define and determine a church’s culture. Churches can become too focused on comparing themselves to other churches, or choosing something aspirational for their values. Instead pay attention to who God made your church to be and ask what you really value. At The Living Stone Church they found that the things they valued most were people, prayer, and praise. They believe prayer is the work, people are the mission and praise is the response to God’s moving. Keep it simple. // Nick and his staff try to keep communication simple when they talk about the church’s values. They can operate as a single word as well as a punchy statement that doesn’t need a long explanation. In addition the leaders at The Living Stone are constantly paying attention to where they can talk about one of the values, whether it’s in a sermon or a team meeting. Strategy. // The strategy is always how your church accomplishes your mission and vision. At The Living Stone, their strategy is The 5% Life, which is a starting point that everyone can engage in as they grow in their relationship with God. The strategy is to spend 1% of the day (at least 15 minutes) in God Time, 1% of the month (1.5 hours) in Group Time, 1% of the week (1.5-2 hours) in Gather Time at church, and 2% of the year (7 days) in Go Time, serving locally or globally in missions. The 5% Life focuses the body at The Living Stone strategically towards God and towards the mission of what God’s asked the church to do. Measures. // If we want our churches to grow, we need to be measuring how we are executing on the vision. Otherwise we won’t know if we’re hitting the mark or not, and growth will be slow and painful. The Living Stone uses the actions of abiding, connecting, and sharing as their measures. These measures help the church to examine if they are doing what they say they’re doing to get where they want to go. The church asks, are people growing spiritually? Are they connecting with people? When those two things are happening, sharing Christ with those around you is a byproduct. You can learn more about The Living Stone Church at www.thelivingstone.church. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: CDF Capital Since 1953, CDF Capital has helped Christians and churches embrace their part in this story by providing the 3 kinds of capital every congregation needs for growth—Financial Capital, Leadership Capital, and Spiritual Capital. At CDF Capital, we care about each of these components. When a church is properly resourced financially, spiritually, and in leadership, lives are transformed. Sign-up to learn more about CDF Capital and how we can help your church grow. Receive a 50% discount on a monthly subscription to the CDF Capital Subscribe & Save Bundle. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Super excited today for today’s conversation but looking forward to this one. We’ve got Nick Thompson with us. He is the executive pastor at a church in Colorado ah, called The Living Stone Church and they exist to expand the movement of Jesus followers across Denver, the west, and ultimately the world. It’s one of the top reproducing churches in the world and Nick he’s an executive pastor. We love executive pastors here at on unSeminary. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Nick Thompson — Yeah, great to be here. Appreciate the opportunity to be on. Rich Birch — Yeah, what don’t you tell us about The Living Stone? Kind of fill in the picture, you know what did I miss there? What what do we, you know, what do we what do we need to to know about the church? Nick Thompson — Yeah, yeah, so we’re ah we’re still what would we consider a church plant. And the church was planted by our lead pastor Keith Baldridge in 2016 of August. And we’ve been journeying for a while now. We’re we’re now in 2023 so we’re we’re encroaching 7 years, and it’s been a great journey. I’ve seen a lot of activity from the Lord and just just unbelievably grateful to be a part of what God’s doing through this church specifically. Um I came on board a little over 3 years ago now. So I’ve been about halfway through been a part of that and yeah, it’s just super special. Nick Thompson — We’re in a really unique area because ah for the listeners and for those who don’t know, um, Colorado is as a whole is about 94% unreached as far as faith goes. And so there’s there’s no better time to be planting churches here locally in our our state specifically. I know there’s other areas, the west, is very similar so that’s that’s why we’re doing what we’re doing. Rich Birch — Yeah I love talking to church leaders like yourself that are in communities that you know people don’t wake up on Sunday morning and say, hey we should go to church today. They just don’t do that in Denver. Nick Thompson — No! Rich Birch — And the fact that you you know they’re not like oh what what are the things we should do today? Well after we go to church… That’s just not what they’re saying in Denver. So, which I love. I think this is great. We can we can all learn and that’s my heart. That’s the kind of communities I’ve served in as well. That’s so good. Rich Birch — Well one of the things that caught my eye my kind of got my attention ah at Living Stone was your mission. And so The Living Stone exists or your vision to expand the movement of Jesus ah, followers across Denver the west in the world. And I just I love that. That’s such a huge vision, massive. How how does that work itself out in reality? What does that look like how, you know, how are you as an executive pastor – we’ve often said in the past that executive pastors live at the intersection of execution and vision. Ah, that’s really the place that we we live at, so what does that look like for you at Living Stone? Nick Thompson — Yeah, it’s ah it’s a great question. Um, really, that’s been the majority of my time being on staff here at The Living Stone has been to take that vision and really form good strategy systems, practical steps to help our church really start achieving that, because you know as vision goes, it’s it’s the thing from God. And you know we need to accomplish it because we’re we’re doing his his will and his work. And so it’s it’s super imperative that we’re we’re thinking and focusing on that. Nick Thompson — So one of the things that we implemented just about a year and a half ago that has made um a lot of acceleration a lot of momentum, just a lot of inclusiveness for our people… Sometimes there’s a huge gap between vision, especially a big vision like this and how people get there. Um, what we’ve what we’ve gotten to as far as like a solution for us is we don’t want them filling in those blanks. We need to be the the forerunners of here’s here’s how we’re doing it. Here’s… the why is right there but here’s how we’re doing it. We’re gonna really spend some focus time on on getting that right. Nick Thompson — So um, the thing that we we actually we we say we adopted because we didn’t steal it. We didn’t borrow it. We’ve used the term we adopted from one of our partner churches, Hope Church, is something that we’re terming as the the vision frame. And so it’s basically like a picture frame. You’ve got vision at the top. You’ve got values on your right. You’ve got strategy on the bottom, and then you got your measures on the left side. And having that vision frame has been super impactful, not just for us as a staff team, but also for our people to really understand, you know, why do we say no to some things? Why do we say yes to some things? Um, how does everything that we’re really going after fit with the overall big vision moment that we’re we’re calling expanding the movement of Jesus followers to Denver, the west, and the world? Nick Thompson — And so it’s really just a ah simple frame and and the way to think about it is if it can go through that frame, it’s probably something that we should be doing or at least have on our future cast. If it can’t go through that frame, it’s definitely going to have to be tabled for now. Maybe in the future it it does make sense. But right now that’s just a no. And so it’s just really simple analytics practices to help our people um, work through that. And I I could go through that if you want me to like really what those each sections are. Rich Birch — Yeah I would love that. I’d love to hear that I love this idea of really breaking it down and trying to close the gap between those two, vision and execution. So yeah, so so yeah talk us through maybe we’ll talk through those four and then we can come back and could get a sense of you know what what do you mean by all those words. And then how have you actually implemented and rolled that out at you know at Living Stone. So let’s let’s start start with talking through those pieces. Nick Thompson — That’s great. Um, three of them are are really interesting to me because I truly believe that most churches are going to do something similar to what we’re doing in in three of these categories. They’re just maybe worded a little bit differently. You know, when I look across America and I’m looking at like what churches are doing as far as their vision to some level they’re they’re pretty much similar. The great commission is there for a reason. Rich Birch — Yes. Nick Thompson — We’re just we’re just using different language to to help people motivate and get there. But for us our vision is ah ah making followers of Jesus, so creating a movement of Jesus followers to Denver, west, and the world. And the strategy there just just to give the big blueprint is Samaria, Judea, to the ends of the earth. It’s it’s starting where we are and starting to work externally. The west has never seen a major move um, of God and so we want to be a part of that. We feel the calling in that not just for here in Colorado. And so that’s that’s like the small strategy behind why the vision is played out that way. Um, so that’s our vision. That’s our we call it our “mis-sion”… Rich Birch — Yes. Nick Thompson — …because it’s really a mission/vision kind of loaded in one. Um you know, moving from there to the right side of the the frame we we get into our values. Um something that I did when I came on staff was I said hey, they had like I want to say it was like 7 or 8 values and nobody could remember what 1 of them were. Rich Birch — So true. Nick Thompson — And I said well they’re not very valuable if we can’t even remember… Rich Birch — Yes, absolutely. Nick Thompson — …so let’s put those in the trash can for now, even though you may feel like that’s a wound. It’s it’s not a big enough wound because you don’t even remember what they are. And it was really easy. Rich Birch — <laughs> That’s a great way to say it. Love it. Nick Thompson — But I said, you know when we’re defining culture, values determine the culture; they they mark the behaviors of what get us to great healthy culture. And so I said let’s not try to force this. Let’s let’s especially because at the time that would have been three and a half, four years in I said who are we? Like what do we actually value? And let’s lean out of that instead of trying to say, I want to be this. I think sometimes churches get into that hangup of… Rich Birch — So true. Nick Thompson — …trying to see something over here, see another church over here, and say I want to be like that. But maybe that’s not who God has made that church to be. It’s a body. It’s an organism. It’s not just an organization. It’s this fluid thing. And so we did that we just took a step back and said what are what are the things that we value? And it was really funny because it surfaced really quickly: people, prayer, and praise. Those are the three values that we lean into and you can’t have one without the other. It’s almost like a three-legged stool. They’re all equal. They’re all just as valuable. Nick Thompson — Um, but we say prayer is the work. Ah, you know we don’t we don’t work and then pray. We pray and then God does the work. We we give him the glory, which is where praise comes in. We don’t we don’t take that. We just allow God to do what he wants to do. This is really his church. We’re just the part of the vehicle in between. And then people are the mission. You know our our church if I was to supersede and say there is a higher value, that would probably be the one. I wouldn’t dare to actually say it on paper or anything like that. But the reality is like you ask anybody at our church like why do you come here? Why are you here? You know what’s the reason you keep coming back? It’s the same answer from every single person. It’s not the preaching. It’s not the worship, no matter how good or how bad any of that is. It’s not really the operational side of Sundays. It’s the connectivity with our people. That’s something that we have that we actually don’t have a lot of as far as the the global church here in Colorado. S we choose to lean into it and make it a high value. Um does that make sense? Rich Birch — I love that – let’s this pause there for a second. Absolutely, it makes total sense. So the couple things I want to point out. So I love the whole descriptive versus prescriptive conversation on values, right? Like I think we sometimes are looking for aspirational things things we wish were important to us. Talk us through that a little bit more; pull that apart because you you know you you talked about that there, but pull that apart a little bit more. What what kind of was your instinct around hey you know what? Let’s let’s let’s describe more who we are rather than who we want to become. Nick Thompson — Yeah, um I think part of that too is you know we we, Pastor Keith and I, we get to spend a lot of time helping young churches or not launched churches just yet, we get to do a lot of leadership in that category which is super fun – one of our our biggest life-giving things that we get to do. And one of the things just through learning through this that we we always teach is you know don’t try to, unless God – that’s a one caveat, right? Like if God says, no this is who I want you to be; like this is who you are. And you already know that going in, holy cow man you have a huge leg up like crazy. So that’s that’s awesome. Um I don’t find that to be very normal I think most of the time people are trying to find the DNA of their church, which is really what we’re talking about is like who who is this church. What is the heartbeat? What is the lifeblood? That really accentuate to gets you to the vision. Nick Thompson — So as far as like the description behind that the things that we were looking for again and again we had a couple years of of play time to understand it. You know three and a half to four years. So it was just a simple question like who really are we? What are the things that really rise to the service when we say this is what we care about? I think some churches—this is what is kind of unique—I think some churches have different flavors of this. Like I think people are always going to be a part of that in some way however the language gets there. Nick Thompson — Obviously because of what we do, God is probably going to have some center point in that value system. And so those two are are really primary, I think. I don’t know how a church could operate without valuing those two things to some degree or some level. Um, and the extra is is you know I like I like the rule of threes because it keeps things off of like ah a dual net. So just having at least a third or maybe more as long as it can be remembered, as long as it could be… Rich Birch — Yeah. Nick Thompson — …and that’s what was super nice is that wasn’t hard for our people to grab; they’re already doing it. That’s. That’s who we are. So it’s like you don’t have to recreate the wheel. You don’t have to try to, man, we’re we’re the 7 steps of excellence like… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick Thompson — …but we’re not so you know we shouldn’t be focusing on that. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So good. I also the other thing I love about this the from a communication point of view your your core values is they operate at two levels. And you and it was funny because I was thinking this as I was reading this on your site. Which which to me again friends I think this is like best in class. Um, it can always get there but man if you can push towards it, it’s amazing. That your values operate as both a single word and then a very punchy statement. So prayer, people, praise. And then prayer is the work, people are the mission, praise is the response. Um and and man if you can get if we can push ourselves to that kind of clarity, I I think that just helps us. Rich Birch — Talk us through maybe in different environments or different ways when you’re communicating, where would you use just the single words where would you use a little bit longer and then obviously expands out from there. There’s the paragraph. There’s the full you know. There’s the sermon. There’s the series. You know like it’s you know it obviously goes you could talk about the stuff for a long time. But talk through the particular difference between when are you using just individual words as opposed to the the you know the the punchy statement the punchy few words together. Nick Thompson — Yeah, it’s a great question. Um in everything that we do, we try to use the “kiss” method – you know, Keep It Simple Smarty. Um, we try to we try as much as we can, because you know the reality is what’s in my brain, what’s in Pastor Keith’s brain the rest of our staff is so much information… Rich Birch — Right? Nick Thompson — …that is not translating at the same rate. And so we do think very um, clearly we do think you know very um, even in private like how what is the best way to get this information across? And so with all of the vision frame, including the values, that’s why we use singular and the long-term expression because there’s moments where we get to teach on it. Um, you know one of the things that Pastor Keith does when he’s preaching is he’ll he’ll throw out his sermon then he’ll send it to either me or or one of our other staff members and we’ll say, hey right here’s a great place to load one of our values in. It’s it’s prime; it’s already there. You’re not, you’re not adding to scripture. You’re you’re you’re using it to accentuate what we’re trying to talk about. So here’s a great place to do that. Maybe we’re having a team meeting in the morning and we’re rallying behind one of our values. You know, if we’re saying people are the mission, you know we get to do a little bit more description with that in that moment. Um, but again we’re throwing it everywhere, especially on the – that’s where I would say would be the difference is if you’re doing a teaching moment, have longer descriptions. if you’re just like putting in the net out constantly so people just feel it, hear it, and start absorbing it, use the use the smaller words. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Okay, so you also said strategy. Talk us through what do you mean by that word? This is one of those words that I feel like in in a lot of or in some circles it becomes it’s like it’s like this magical thing. Ah you know but help us understand what what do you mean by strategy? How does that fit into the frame? Nick Thompson — So yeah, yeah, strategy is is simply it’s the how. How do we get there? Um, the why is is you know the vision that’s that’s holding that. Even to some level the what is you know in our values. Um, the where and the who, I think all of those exist too, within some of the measures some of the values and and are definitely our our vision. But the strategy is always the how. So that’s what we mean by strategy. And this is actually the one area I think churches get to have a lot of fun with because this probably will not look exactly the same between any one church, unless it’s like a campus or something like that. That’s a little different story. But this is how we how we accomplish the mission. This is what we’re saying. When we do these things. This is how the vision over time gets accomplished. So that’s that’s like the simple answer to that. Rich Birch — And and so how do you define that? What does that look like for you guys? How would you talk about the strategy? Nick Thompson — Yeah, so our strategy is we call it The 5% Life. Again, it’s part of what we adopted from Hope Church in Las Vegas, and it’s very simple. It’s it’s 1% 1% 1% and then 2%. So that equals your 5%. We always we always throw this out there for the Christians in the room. What we’re not saying is that we want you to have a 5% relationship with Jesus. Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Nick Thompson — Ah non-believers never think that but it’s always the Christians that are like well I think that’s practically heresy. We’re we’re not saying that like even remotely. What we’re talking about is hey, this is a starting point and if we can get everybody to engage The 5% Life, we truly believe, and and we have analytics to prove it, ah that we are growing in that vision and going closer and closer towards that goal. So, breaking that apart, it’s really simple. We ask that people spend 1 % of their their day in God time, which is roughly 15 minutes. We ask that they spend 1% of their month in group time, which is basically our small groups. And they they spend basically one night a week for you know an hour and a half—that’s what that equates to—gather time is another one percent, which is coming to church weekly. 1% of their week is is basically an hour and a half to two hours of of time with service, and just getting to gather and be in fellowship. And then the 2% is go time, going locally and going globally we ask that. You know they would spend their year in a 2% fashion, praying and focusing on the global effect which means they go on a missions trip, or they they do something within that, it ends up being about seven days, they end up spending about seven days here locally on mission too. So it focuses them strategically towards God and towards the mission of what God’s asking this specific church plant to do. Rich Birch — Um I love that. So I that’s I love that articulation. That’s ah, that’s a ah clear example um I think the thing I love about that is you’re focusing on you know, by by focusing on the percentages and talking about the timeline, ah, you’re giving another level of depth to this. You’re saying hey this is this is the kind of time, this is the kind of—and we we live in a time-obsessed culture… Nick Thompson — Yes. Rich Birch — …where time is our greatest attention is our greatest you know asset. Um, you know see you know Facebook and Instagram who are monetizing that attention. And so by saying hey, let’s let’s use that attention, you know, for our spiritual growth. I love that. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard anybody else talk about it like that. I just think that’s really great. Nick Thompson — Yeah. Yeah, we’ve we’ve found it to be highly impactful. I mean it’s simple and yet there are so many sub-layers to that that, especially our staff gets to work with. Like you know we break that apart. We we really help people on the serving level. You know if we can get people to serve, they’re really operating in that gather time. The I would say the most important though of all is the first one. If they can spend 15 minutes daily with God um, we will see the trajectory of their spiritual growth like crazy. Because it won’t stay at 15 minutes, one; it will it will get longer. Ah, they’ll also have a relationship with God. We believe that we believe that we’ll we’ll taste and see that that’s good. And so we I don’t know that we shove it down. People’s throats. But we we talk about it an awful lot. Especially that first one just because we know that you know without that we’re we’re operating and working through, you know, fleshly mindsets and that just takes longer to get there. It it doesn’t matter how great your strategy is for your vision without God. It’s it’s just gonna be so much so much work that we just know God could go before us. So. Rich Birch — Love it. And then I think the I think if I remember correctly the the other part of the frame is measures is what you’re you’re measuring as an organization? Talk talk me through that. What’s that look like? Nick Thompson — Yeah, this is ah this is actually again, this is another one that I think would be pretty consistent with any church. Those first top three – the the vision the values and then the measures will be pretty consistent, some version of it with any church. And yet I find that the fourth one is the one that most churches don’t do because they either don’t have time for it or they don’t think it’s valuable. And the reality is you can’t you can’t grow into what you don’t measure. So if you’re not measuring it, you’re not even focused on on the vision is the reality and I know that might be hard for some people to hear, but it is the truth. Like if you’re not measuring as you go—Jesus did this in certain ways—I think there’s so much aptitude for that biblically even with the parable of the talents. Like if you’re not aware of what you’re doing with the things that God’s given you, growth is just ah, slow… it’s not just a slow-go. It’s ah painful. And sometimes it’s like that for other reasons, but that’s just something that we can do right from the get-go for sure. Nick Thompson — Um, so our measures are they they operate within every bit of what we just described. They’re they’re really simple: abide, and connect, and share. That’s how we evaluate are our people, are we doing what we say we’re doing to get to where we’re going? If if we can measure those things in just a simple way abiding in Christ, meaning are people growing spiritually? Are they are they connected to the vine? And and that comes from that God time; that comes from that gather time. Ah, all all of those ingredients grow that one thing. Nick Thompson — Are they connecting with people? You know if they’re just islands unto themselves, they’re not going to be effective in the ministry that God’s called them to. And so again, all of that touches the strategy. It messes with our values. And it and in the end it actually gets to our vision. If they’re connecting with people, we we know that they’re going to be alive in Christ and continue in healthy relationship with people and with him. Nick Thompson — And then the sharing part, and this was this is by far—just to give everybody clarity here—this is by far a most challenging part is to get people to share into the mission. And so we believe that when we do all these things well within our staff teams within our volunteers within our groups, we believe that sharing is ah is a byproduct, sharing Christ to those around them. You know if he’s truly renewed you, if he’s truly come into your life, that’s a gift that you want to give other people. And here in Colorado we’re not, we’re not from the south. So it’s not like, hey come in my house. That’s very weird here. Rich Birch — <laughs> Love it. Nick Thompson — Um, but that doesn’t mean we don’t share Jesus. And so we’ve had to get calculated on on how we do that. Rich Birch — So good. Okay, so talk us through. So love that super clear explanation of the frame. Talk us through maybe how you’ve rolled this out. How does this kind of impacted how you’re making decisions at ah at the church? Nick Thompson — Yeah, yeah, I’d I’d love to just be like super honest with you know, the good and the bad because there’s been some tension for sure. Rich Birch — You mean it’s not been all perfect? It hasn’t been all like oh it’s amazing. Nick Thompson — Yeah, yeah, coming you know, we’re we have taught this now, our church is like living through this we would do it again 10 times out of 10 despite the pain and the the frustrations and the tensions that have come. Um but we we started the rollout by by doing two things. We got our groups involved, because they’re they’re really the heartbeat of our church. Like if you’re in a group you’re you’re part, you’re you’re involved at a pretty high level you’re because you’re doing a buy, connect, share. Um and and we also did a Sunday morning series to really launch this. Um and I knew this was gonna happen anytime that you really hyper focus on vision and say this is what we’re doing; this is who we are. You’re gonna have people that are like, this isn’t what I want. And one of the things that I do at our church is I help people get where they need to go. I thoroughly enjoy doing that because it’s really about the kingdom at the end. If if our church is at the best church for you, you need to be in a church that’s going to be, you know, giving you what you need to be successful as a believer. And so I will I will like literally walk you to that church, however that needs to happen so that you could do that. But that’s one of the things that we saw was a tension point is people who were on the fence and were like, well I’m coming for other reasons. We just had to be honest and say, that’s okay, but that’s not who we are. Nick Thompson — At some, and I’ve seen this, man, over over years if people are there and they’re expecting something else, and we’re like well maybe we could do that, maybe we can’t. You’re hurting them and you’re hurting yourself, I think in the process because they’re probably never going to let go. If those things are really deep in them, they might even be ministry callings or ministry giftings, but if if you as a church are saying, you know, there’s other churches that that’s what they do and they’re really good at it. Like you should definitely go be a part of their ministry. You’re growing the kingdom. Yeah… Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Nick Thompson — …like it’s not about just our church sometimes, and so that’s definitely been a major tension. And at the same time, the people that are that is the vision for them too, they have gravitated and like clung to it in a way that I’ve never seen before. Like especially on our measures side. Our measures have been more successful, specifically this year than any year I’ve seen combined. Rich Birch — That’s cool. Nick Thompson — So it’s been major value. Major value. Rich Birch — And that must be because it’s it’s would you say it’s because it’s gaining momentum internally. It’s like more people know about it. They know what the measures are. They know…so then it becomes you know, shared language, and then there’s a positive reinforcement on that. Is that what’s going on? Nick Thompson — Yeah, shared language I think is key. It’s huge. It’s also simple. It’s not hard to follow. I mean I think if you’re making things hard to follow, getting to lead well is going to be difficult for you because, you know, people aren’t looking for really really hard follows. They’re looking for… Rich Birch — Yes. Nick Thompson — …I mean think how easy it is to follow with our our world, right now. You click a button to some level. So we’re trying to always make that more simple but also highly effective which always comes with tension. Rich Birch — Yeah, interesting, interesting. So what what coaching would you give, maybe looking back over your roll load over these last couple years. What would you do different, knowing what you know now? How would you coach in other churches that are thinking about you know they’re thinking about the frame, they want to you know, dive deeper ah to to ultimately drive, you know, better execution, life change in people’s lives. What would you what would you coach them to think to do differently than maybe you did? Nick Thompson — Yeah, I would ah I would say definitely get aggressive with that whole idea. Maybe you want to do something different and it’s not a frame. Maybe it’s something, but similar. Like regardless I think having those four things is is worth more than we could probably equate to. And if you if you do that again what you’re doing is you’re creating a simple pathway for people to get on board and follow, and an onramp off too. I would say that’s even more important. Because if you’re from like the bible belt or, you know, if there’s depending on where this church is that we’re speaking to right now, it’s going to look different culturally. It just is. And so knowing those things, both are so important the off off ramp for people who are like, this isn’t what I want; I want a church that is all about like level 10 worship and all the resources go to that. Okay, that may not be you though. So don’t… Rich Birch — Right. Nick Thompson — …pretend like it is. Like and that’s that’s a thing as a church plan I think one of the one of the hardest things is is saying, well we need to grow with people because that’s part of our vision obviously. That’s a major key driver. But grow with the people that are part of the vision is is just as as lucrative because if you’re doing it with people who are just on the there there’s a lot of frustration that comes with that. There’s a lot of pulling away from the vision and so you’re working over yourself. I’ve always said this like ah since I started in leadership is I would rather run with 5 people that are all in than 500 people that are barely got a toe in. Because you can actually do way more with those 5 people by a lot. I mean the amount of resource for a leader that has to go into trying to gather and and group people back in over and over is extreme. So find people that are really in with you and get them to replicate everything that you’re doing and saying, but you got to make it simple which is why we have the vision frame. Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. This has been so fantastic. I’m sure there’s people that are in their cars that have pull pulled over and are writing stuff out because it’s been so much helpful ah helpful tips here. This has been been fantastic. As we come to close as we kind of come to to wrap up the conversation, any kind of final words of advice or encouragement to leaders who are listening in today? Nick Thompson — Yeah, yeah, something that I’ve been going through recently I think it has a lot to do with what we’re talking about, but man pray. The bigger the bigger and more leadership anybody gets, I think requires more prayer for. Rich Birch — Yeah, so true. Nick Thompson — So like if you want your church to grow, pray more. If if your church is growing, you should already be praying more. Like spend more time with the Lord because you’re going to need his guidance and his direction. Rich Birch — So good. Well, that’s a great great word to end on. Nick I really appreciate you being here today, and it’s great to connect a little bit. If people want to track with you or with the church where do we want to send them online? Nick Thompson — Yeah, ah livingstone.church – that’s ah that’s our online resource and you can see all of the things that we have to offer. We’re we’re going to be offering some more resource pages here soon. A new podcast that we’re starting, some really fun stuff. So, man, it’s been a huge privilege. Thank you so much for letting me on here today. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. So we’ll have links to all that in the show notes but really appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you for your time. Nick Thompson — Thank you.

Welcome to today’s special episode of the unSeminary podcast where we are replaying our recent webinar called “Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Building and Sustaining a Strong Team Culture” with my friends Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. In this webinar, Todd and Matt discuss the importance of cultivating a healthy team culture prior to bringing on new hires, communicating values and expectations during the hiring process to protect church culture, and taking the time to find the right candidate to build and sustain a strong team culture. In addition they share a FREE assessment that is opening today, April 24th! Visit churchstaffassessment.com and answer the questions there to help you understand the health and culture at your church. Protecting your culture. // Whenever we add staff members to our teams, it changes the culture. In order to protect our culture during that hiring process, Todd emphasizes the importance of clearly communicating your values and expectations right from the start. Don’t just have these ideas in your head, but put them down on paper and make sure that everyone on your team is in agreement about what your culture is. Be transparent. // Once you have a clear understanding of your values and culture, give candidates open-handed access to what your situation and culture are. Be transparent about where your church is excelling and where you are struggling and need improvement. Hiding key bits of your story when talking with potential hires never ends well. It often leads to disillusionment after they come on staff and employment that doesn’t last. The real cost. // We all want to find hires that are going to be long-term team members. We need to be realistic that finding the right candidate can take 12-18 months. While it’s tempting to quickly fill a need, it’s better to go without than hiring out of desperation. Matt explains that hiring the wrong person is costly not only because of the salary and other budget items spent, but also the time wasted, the significant loss of trust on your team, the sideways energy, and impact on your culture. Team health. // Before you hire any staff, take a look at your current team and make sure that they’re healthy. If your team is not healthy and you try to bring somebody else in, it won’t correct the problems. To cultivate a healthy culture, remember that kindness and treating others the way you want to be treated goes a long way. Pay attention to providing regular opportunities for your team to offer feedback, whether for concerns or ideas. Invest in staff development, encourage healthy work life balance, and deal with conflicts and concerns in a healthy way. Foster a culture of appreciation, and make sure your team members are recognized for their contributions. Potential vs experience. // When searching for candidates we are constantly confronted with the tension of hiring someone with potential versus hiring someone with proven capacity. But it’s important to consider more than just skills, abilities and experience. Don’t ignore key factors such as being a theological fit, aligning with your church’s culture and personality, and if the individual has chemistry with you and your team. While there may be times when a skilled person is necessary, take a chance on someone with potential and pour into them, making time for mentoring and development. Staff Health Assessment. // On April 24th Chemistry Staffing is rolling out a 2023 Church Staff Health Assessment for church staff teams to participate in. This FREE assessment consists of 50 questions based on communication, job satisfaction, leadership, team dynamics, compensation and benefits, work environment and more. Take 10-15 minutes to go through the assessment at churchstaffassessment.com and receive a score that will give you insight into your church’s health. Don’t miss the chance to take Chemistry Staffing’s FREE 2023 Church Staff Health Assessment at churchstaffassessment.com through May 19, 2023 and learn more about the health and culture at your church. Plus visit Chemistry Staffing to see how their team can help you find the right fit. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Chemistry Staffing One of the things that they never teach you in seminary is when to move on from your current church. Over the last couple of years, we have been having a TON of conversations about this with pastors all over the United States. Of all the ministry decisions you make, leaving your position will be the toughest. Download this two-in-one resource that walks you through the decision-making process. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey, friends, what on earth? Why are we coming in hot with an unSeminary episode on a Monday rather than on a Thursday? You know, for 800 plus episodes every Thursday we have bringed you conversations that we hope will inspire and equip you. But today, on a Monday, we’re coming in with something very special. You see, a couple weeks ago we ran a webinar called “Resilient Church Staff Secrets to Building and Sustaining a Strong Team Culture”. And it was with my friends Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen. And we covered a lot in that webinar that I want you to hear. But even more pointedly, this is what I want you to do to take action on it. Today, April 24th, they are opening up a free assessment. I can’t believe that this is free, but it’s a free assessment called churchstaffassessment.com. And it’s designed to help you understand the, the culture at your church. Rich Birch — And you do this, it’s 50 questions. At the end they ask for your email address. You don’t actually even have to give it, but if you want to get the assessment, you just give your email. It’s totally free, and it will unpack and help you understand your church staff culture. Now, we’re gonna talk more about this in the episode, but I wanted you to hear this full episode. So we cut out the tops and tails, the kind of frivolous stuff at the beginning of the webinar and jump right in. Uh, but I want you to hear this. Take some time to put this in your ears and listen to this today. And join us on our next webinar. When we talk about this on our emails, you just, you can learn about ’em by just signing up at unseminary.com. We’re constantly unpacking great stuff in those environments, and you get to go toe to toe and ask questions with experts like Todd and Matt. So listen in, and don’t forget to drop by churchstaffassessment.com today. It closes on May 19th, so make sure you get in and do that today. Again, that’s churchstaffassessment.com. Rich Birch — All right, friends, well, we’re gonna jump in, uh, to today’s conversation. Super excited. We are this, the title of this webinar is Resilient Church Staff Secrets to Building and Sustaining a Strong, uh, Team Culture. It’s gonna be a great time today. Now, just kind of a couple rules of engagement. We will be taking questions. Uh, we’re gonna have a bit of a conversation here. A couple things I want to extract out of these experts minds. Uh, but then we do want to get your questions in. So at any point during today’s call, please just drop them in the chat and, uh, we’ll make sure to get a chance to loop back around to them. Also, I wanna encourage you to stay tuned until the end, because today, uh, Matt and Todd are launching something really cool that you’re gonna get a chance to get it literally in on the ground floor of. So, like, you’re gonna be among the very first people to access this thing today. And so I don’t want you to miss that. Uh, and so we’re just, again, so honored that are, are here. Rich Birch — So let me give you a bit of an introduction. We’ve got two folks, two friends, uh, on the call today, Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen. Uh, Todd is the co-founder of Chemistry Staffing. You might have heard of them before, if you’ve hung around unSeminary for a while. He’s got over 30 years of experience serving, uh, churches in a whole bunch of different scenarios. Todd, uh, was, has really, you know, helped in a bunch of different contexts as a founder of, uh, churchstaffing.com, which really helped so many churches find pastors and staff online. He worked with Leadership Network, you might know him from, from that context. It’s given really valuable insights, uh, into not only where the church is today, but where it’s going in the future, and how they can continue to operate healthy. He’s a graduate of Cedarville University, uh, so honored to have you on the call today, Todd. Rich Birch — Uh, and Matt, Matt also, uh, is also a co-founder. We’ve got the co-founders here today of Chemistry Staffing. He served the local church for over two decades as a youth pastor. Yay, for previous youth pastors. That’s good. Matt Steen — We, uh, you know, we gotta stick together. <laugh> Rich Birch — Uh, church planter, executive pastor, he’s, uh, studied at Nyack and at Baylor University. Uh, he’s, uh, he’s got a whole bunch of different certifications. He was up in the northeast; that’s where he and I actually originally met. He’s a strata facilitator, uh, with the Patterson, uh, Institute. So, you know, he is a really smart guy or center. Uh, I know he is a really smart guy. Got lots to offer, so, welcome. So glad that you guys are here. Todd, why don’t you, we’ll start with you. Fill out your picture. What did I miss there? Uh, tell us a little more of the Todd Rhoades story there. Todd Rhoades — Oh my goodness. No, I, I have such a big head after hearing that, that, uh, <laugh> <laugh> and, and, and, and half of it’s true. Even so. Rich Birch — <laugh> Yeah. Todd Rhoades — No, uh, you not, not too much more to, uh, to mention there. We really, Matt and I, um, started this, uh, Chemistry Staffing thing about, about six years ago, Matt? Matt Steen — Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Todd Rhoades — Um, really, really out of a, a sense of we want to try and help ch… and this is what we’re gonna talk about today, help churches, uh, hire for, for what we call, what we call healthy long-term fit. Matt Steen — Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Todd Rhoades — We want, we want to help churches and candidates find each other where they can serve together for a, at least five years. And that there’s that cultural match, and theological match, and all that, some of the stuff that we’ll get into later. But we started that about six years ago and, and just having a blast helping, helping churches and getting to know candidates and, and trying to make as great a matches as we can. Rich Birch — Love it. Matt, why don’t you fill out the picture. What did I, what did I miss there? Matt Steen — Uh you know, Todd, Todd never talks about his family and, and, and Dawn and all that kinda stuff. So I’m gonna go and talk, you know, married for 15 years to Teresa. Rich Birch — Love it. Matt Steen — Two of us and a retired greyhound named Nelly down here in Orlando. And so, uh, and like Todd said, you know, never, never woke up and said, Hey, I wanna go be a church headhunter. Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. You know, it’s just like, you know, Todd and I, we, we we’re, we’re kind of church geeks… Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Matt Steen — …and, and the whole thing for us is, Hey, how do we help churches get healthy? And this was a low hanging fruit for us. It is really coming alongside in that, in that transition season. So, that’s it, man. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. And friends, the fact that we’ve been able to convince both Todd and Matt to be on here is, is just amazing. And so we’re, we’re looking forward to try to extract from them. So, obviously, you know, they have stuff, they have ways they can help you. Uh, but today we wanna really try to learn from them as we think about, you know, our particular context. You know, and lots of times when we think about hiring, cuz it’s a part of what we’re talking about, we’re adding new staff members, man, that we know that when, at least I know when I add staff members to our team, it changes the culture. Uh, it, it, it adjusts things. You know, you can’t make that kind of thing without some sort of adjustment. But Todd, how do we protect, if we’re adding a team member, how do we protect our culture during that process? How do we but during that hiring process? Todd Rhoades — Well, that’s a, that’s a a great question, Rich. And I think that’s, it’s really foundational. You’ve gotta get this part right or everything that follows in your staff search is gonna go or has a high probability of going off the rails. Really, the one piece of advice I would say is, man, you’ve gotta clearly communicate your values and your expectations right from the start. And you’ve, and it’s not good enough just to have it in your head, put it in writing. Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd Rhoades — Um, what we find with a lot of churches that we work with, and we work with some great churches, is that when you’re going to hire a new team member, this is a great time to make sure that everybody is on the same page, and that you’re being honest with where you’re and what your culture is. Todd Rhoades — So, and, and that has to start with, uh, with putting that down in writing and, and getting agreement on that. because you’re going to start, as you’re start interviewing candidates, you’re gonna start sharing that culture and that DNA with those candidates. Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Todd Rhoades — And if, if, if one person says one thing and another person says something else, that’s gonna be a real tip off that, uh, that maybe this isn’t quite as healthy a place as you can. So, from a practical standpoint, um, just a couple of couple of things that I think uh, once you get that down on paper and you’re in agreement, that’s really huge that you’re in agreement… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — …um, is give candidates open-handed access to what your, what your situation is, uh, what your culture is, you know, be realistic about, you know, hey, here’s where we’re hitting it outta the park. Here’s some areas that we really need to, to see some improvement or some things that we’re struggling with. Those kind of things. If you find that you’re, this is what we found. If you find that you’re trying to control the situation, as you start to talk to candidates, if you’re trying to control the access or you’re, or you’re, you’re hiding key bits, key bits of your story, to the person you’re trying to hire, chances are that’s not gonna end well for you because you can only hide that for so long. You, you bring them on your team, 12 to 18 months. If you’re hiding something or you’re trying to control access, it’s, it’s not going to go well for you. And we hear, and we, we hear this all the time from candidates when we’re talking to them, is we almost, we need a, a little virtual cuss jar that we can kind of put on our, on our desks every time, every time we hear a candidate say, well, they said they said this, but I got there on the first Sunday and it couldn’t have been… Rich Birch — Wow. Todd Rhoades — …you know, we’ve had, we’ve had people say, you know, um, they told us that they had 800 on a, on a Sunday and we got there and there were like 70 people in the room. Rich Birch — Wow! Oh my goodness. Todd Rhoades — So, I mean, we, we hear stories like that all the time. So number one, you gotta have your story straight. Number two, you gotta tell the truthful story. Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — And number three, you gotta be open-handed with candidates and be honest and transparent and open. If you’re, if you are, that’s the start to a healthy staff culture hire. Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Todd Rhoades — If you’re not, it’s, it’s the beginnings of probably doing this again, this whole hiring thing again in the next 12 to 18 months. Rich Birch — Well, I love that. Like, so I know for me, I, I feel the pressure when we’re in a hiring scenario. It, at somewhere during the conversation, it goes from we’re checking out them, and then they’re, and then eventually it becomes, they’re checking out us. And we get… Todd Rhoades — Absolutely. Rich Birch — I know, I feel the pressure of like, in that mode, it’s like, okay, now I want to sell them on like, Hey, what is great about what we do. But I, I love even just that on having that honest conversation with ourselves around, Hey, what, what is the, let’s resist that temptation, let’s resist the temptation, try to make ourselves look better than we are. Um, and what are those, you know, what are those areas that we want to be super truthful on? Yeah. I love that. That’s so good. Rich Birch — So Matt, what about, so I know I feel this pressure when we hire people, man, this is a costly, expensive process. Like, I’m like, you know, I already feel the pressure. We’re like, you know, by all I would say a hundred percent of the hires I’ve ever done, there’s some gaping hole in our ministry. I’m like, this party is burning and I just need to throw a staff member at that. Uh, and I have told myself more than I’d like to admit, I’ve said, well, someone’s better than no one in that area. I’m sure no one else has ever said that. I’m just not a very good leader. Someone’s better than no one. Todd Rhoades — Famous last words. Rich Birch — Yeah and the… Exactly. I’ve done that a couple times, and over time I’ve learned, actually that’s not true. Because the cost of hiring the wrong person is just so high. Um, it’s, it’s just, it’s insurmountable. How do you kind of articulate that with, with people on the culture side, when you hire the wrong person, what’s the real cost of hiring the wrong person, Matt? Matt Steen — The the real cost 4.7 million, it’s been, you know, scientifically prov… No, I, I, I don’t know that I can put a dollar value on it. Rich Birch — Sure. Matt Steen — But sure. But, you know, here’s, here’s where it comes. I mean, the, the, the recruiting cost, just, just spending the money and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. That’s, that’s a real cost. The salary that’s spent, and any budget items, I mean, that’s, that’s real cost. But, you know, I think the more significant cost is loss of trust, loss of, you know, the sideways energy, the cultural hits that, that you take, you know… Rich Birch — So true. Matt Steen — …all those, all those soft things that you really can’t put a number on. But what are, what are true, because I mean, the time that goes into that goes into, into a search right now, um, I’m telling churches that, you know, if you’re gonna go into a search process, be thinking 12 to 18 months. Now we’re gonna pray that God, you know, God, God shows up a whole awful lot quicker than that. But we’re saying, think about this as a 12 to 18 month run. And if it goes quicker, great. Right? But that’s a significant… Rich Birch — Okay. Can I just say something? Can I stop there for a second? Just stop there. Matt Steen — Yeah. Rich Birch — Because you just rolled over that; you’re an expert in this area. I, I wonder if people are surprised by that number, because I, I know for me, I, I’m like, man, we need somebody there tomorrow. Matt Steen — Yeah. Rich Birch — So, uh, but even this idea of 12 to 18 months. Do you, did you get people surprised when you say that, or no, they’re just like, oh. Matt Steen — Man, I, I ruin people’s day when I say that. I really do. Rich Birch — Okay, okay. Right. Matt Steen — It’s like, yes yesterday, you know, guy’s like, Hey, I really, our worship pastor’s leaving in May, we’d really like somebody here in June. And it’s like… Rich Birch — <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s the third week of April. Matt Steen — And it… yeah. I mean, this was, this was literally yesterday. And so… Rich Birch — Oh my goodness. Wow. Matt Steen — You know, and part of what I tell people, it’s like, I, I’m good, but I still haven’t figured out how to sync my calendar up to God’s calendar, right? Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Yes. Matt Steen — God’s not surprised by the fact that we’ve got this staff opening, but his timing may not be the same as ours. And so, part of what I tell people is, we’re gonna pray like crazy that it’s gonna go quicker than 12 to 18 months. But part of, part of the role here is this higher, regardless of what position it’s gonna be, is so critically important to your culture, and to the direction forward that you need to be able to say no to somebody who looks amazing on paper. You need to be able to say no to somebody who you hit it off, and it’s just incredibly talented. You need to be able to say no to that person when the only thing that you can come to is the Holy Spirit is just saying, Hey, um, I’m not so sure about that. Right? Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Steen — And if we’re in this saying, Hey, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s April and I need somebody in June, it is incredibly tough to say no to that person at that point. And so, part of what I tell our church is, is, hey, publicly communicate 12 to 18 months. Rich Birch — Okay. Matt Steen — Um, pray like crazy. It goes quicker. And, and man, I tell you what, we, we we’re shooting to get people in place way quicker than that. But the, the church needs to have that, that sense of, Hey, this is gonna take a little while, and that’s okay. We’re not broken as a church. And so, you know, so much of this, I mean, you, you wanna talk about protecting your culture and, and, and building the sustainable, it’s, you, you need to intentionally go slow and, and realize that, hey, you know, we, we blow this. Matt Steen — We’re losing trust, we’re losing morale. Um, you know, our congregation is saying, oh dear, we’re going through this process again. What’s wrong with us? Um, all the, you know, all the financial costs in, in involved in that as well. And then just what it’s gonna take to recover, um, the, in that ministry area again as you’re going through the second hiring process. It’s, take the long view on this because, you know, it is, it is so tempting just to go and hire the, hire the guy who, their jokes are funny, you know, and, and they remind us of our nephew, and… Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Matt Steen — …yeah, they’ve, they’ve been at this great church and they’ve done the job. You know, it’s really easy just to go pull the trigger on that without digging, digging deeper to make sure that they’re culturally they’re gonna be such a great fit. So. Todd Rhoades — And that’s, that’s where the tension comes in. I mean, that’s what we hear. That’s the tension that we hear all the time, is… Matt Steen — Totally. Todd Rhoades — …we need somebody tomorrow, but we don’t wanna screw this thing up. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — You know what I mean? Um, and, and so, so even the, even the 12 to 18 months, like Matt said, we, we, when at church is working with us, we, we strive to get somebody way before that time. Rich Birch — Right, right. Todd Rhoades — But the first thing we tell search committees is, number one, it’s probably gonna take twice as long as what your minimum, at least twice as long as what you think it’s gonna take. Because, because there’s a lot of different factors to make that, to make a good hire so you don’t screw this thing up. Um, and, and number two, just we try to tell them, breathe, you know, this doesn’t surprise God. He’s not surprised at this. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good. Todd Rhoades — But give, give, give your leadership team, give your board, give your search committee, give your congregation room to breathe. Uh, kind of the under underpromise, over-deliver type thing… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Rhoades — …that, you know, it’s much better to say, you know, this is gonna be a longer term process than to say, Hey, you know, we should have, we’ll, we’ll have, we’ll have a list of 50 resumes in, in six weeks. Rich Birch — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — Um, cuz it, it, it just doesn’t work like that. And, and if it does work like that, you’d really need to breathe and make sure that you, if you make two a desperation hire, it’s better to go without it than to hire out of desperation. And a lot of churches do that. So that’s one of the ways we kinda help them hold their hand through that so they don’t make those mistakes. Matt Steen — That’s the part… Rich Birch — Friends, this is a part, oh, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Matt Steen — But that, that’s part of the reason. I mean the, the, the average stay right now is what, three, three and a half years. And, and you think, you think about that and there’s, there’s a lot of long-term guys that have 10 years in. So you think about how many are just staying 18 months, 12 months, something like that. You know? Rich Birch — Wow, yeah. Matt Steen — It is, it’s got, it’s gotta take us some time. So, I cut you off, man, that’s so rude to me. Rich Birch — No, no, not at all. I was cutting you off. I I was cutting. I was interrupting you while you were interrupting me. The, um, well, you know, this is a part of why I love, you know, Chemistry Staffing friends. Like this is, uh, so I, there’s a different or similar organization that does a similar thing to Chemistry Staffing. And this is years ago. And we, we had come to the end, like we had exactly that kind of thing. There was like this burning hole in our organization. We’re like, okay, we need to hire somebody to help us with this cuz this, we clearly can’t do this. And so, uh, so we need to get something new. And so we, we brought, we brought in another firm and I was talking to the salesperson and they were like, we got your person. We totally got your person. We’ll find this person quickly, and I’m sure we can, you know, we, we placed these things all day or all night, blah, blah, blah, that kind of thing. Rich Birch — And then the first time the consultant came and met with us, literally this happened, friends, the first time the consultant met with us, sat down, the very first thing outta their mouth was, man, this is gonna be a very long hire. This is gonna take us forever. I don’t know if we’ll ever find this person. And I was like, what? Like, we just paid you all this money. Uh, and so I really, this is part of why I love, you know, Todd and Matt, because they’re right out front. They’re saying like, Hey friends, this is gonna take a while. No, obviously they’re gonna try to do it, you know, work faster if you end up engaging them. But, uh, really appreciate that and that, you know, uh, that’s not dogging anybody else. That just is, uh, part of why I love these guys. Rich Birch — Well, let’s, let’s talk about, you know, team, unity, team, you know, health, when we think about the changing culture that happens, we bring somebody else in there, it kind of changes all the relationships. Things shift around a little bit. And we wanna make sure that we, we are hiring people, then that’s increasing unity, that that’s increasing, you know, people feel better about working here after not worse. Um, and that, you know, what, what can we do? How can we keep our team unified and healthy through this process, Todd? How do we, what can we do to ensure that we’re we’re coming out the other end as a more unified team? Todd Rhoades — Yeah. Well, first is to be a unified team to begin with. So that, that sounds like just a total consultant answer, but I kind of get back to my first… Rich Birch — No, no, I get it. I get it. Todd Rhoades — Kind of go back to my first answer. Um, just that first, very first question is, you know, you, you have to clearly know what your situation is, right? So you, you should have, as before you hire any staff, I mean, you really should take a look at your current staff or your current team and make sure that they’re healthy. Um, because if your staff, and if your team is not healthy, um, and, and you try to bring somebody else in, it’s not gonna correct the problem. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — Um, okay. So I, I, I try to, I always try to, to bring it down to as, as, um, I don’t know, as 30,000 foot view as I can. But I mean, when it comes, when it comes to staff, um, try to be like Jesus, or at least be kind, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Right. Todd Rhoades — And, and I’m convinced that so much of the, so much of the disunity, so much of the conflict that happens in our churches today is, it goes back, this is sounds so simplistic, and I almost hesitate to say it, but almost goes back to the golden rule, right? That you treat other people the way that you would want to be treated. So that goes from the senior pastor all the way down to your staff. How that goods communicated to the volunteers is you really have to treat people the way that you want to be treated. And you have to be kind. Now, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t tough conversations. Of course there are tough conversations and tough things. It’s, it’s, and ministry is messy. Ministry is some of the most messy work you can do, um. Todd Rhoades — But, uh, you need to try and cultivate that healthy culture, you know, provide regular opportunities for feedback, for communication. If you’re not allowing people to speak up to the leadership and to give concerns and to give ideas and to, to innovate and, and communicate, then that’s a problem. You know, how are you investing in your staff development, in your staff training? Um, how are your encouraging healthy work life balance? Um, how do you, how are you fostering, um, a culture of appreciation? I mean, do your, do the people on your team feel appreciated? Do they feel recognized? Um, when there is a concern, do you deal with it properly? Uh, or do you kind of, uh, let it take care of itself or sweep it under the rug? All those kind of things are, are—and we, we all know this, but it’s much harder to do than to actually talk about—is making sure that before you bring somebody else on your team, that the team that you already have is healthy. It’s the best thing you can do. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good. I, I was just recently was, um, talking to a senior leader who was reflecting back on their, and this person’s like, driven, done a ton of things, made a lot of impact, and they were reflecting back on their, their career, and was, were saying, you know, it’s not that they had regrets, but they were saying, listen, if I could do it again, I would’ve been kinder and more generous with my team earlier. You know, I’m like, I, and I’m like, man, there’s some real, there’s some real wisdom there for, particularly for up and coming leaders, right? They’re like, you know, hey, like we, you know, we, we have to be guided by that. We have to lead from that, that place. And I thought, man, that’s, that’s so true. I think we all look, you know, we can look at conversations. We’re like, I’m not sure that was a win for the kingdom there. We might have got done what we needed to get done, but like, were we, you know, can we be kinder? Could be more generous? I I love that. Rich Birch — Well, Matt, when you think about, um, you know, church health. You think about, you know, you guys interact with a lot of churches. I wanna try to take advantage of the fact that you interact with the, with a lot of churches. What, let’s, let’s kind of have a bit of a real conversation. What concerns you when you look at church health these days? What’s kind of like a, something that you’re, you know, a little bit concerned about? Matt Steen — Yeah. So, so I, I think there’s, there’s, there’s the, the stuff that everybody’s complaining out about out there right now, you know, the, the division society-wise, and all the, the politics and how that’s affecting things and, and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, I think those are, those are big. I think the declining attendance post covid is, is, is an issue. And, you know, I don’t wanna sound sound like a doom and gloom guy. I tell you though, Rich, um, the thing that, the thing that keeps me up at night and the thing that praying most about right now is, is both ends of the pastoral timeline, okay? Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Matt Steen — And so what I mean by that is, um, we are going through a pretty significant wave of succession. Rich Birch — Yep. Matt Steen — You know, pastors of a certain age realizing that it’s, it’s time for them to retire. Um, traditionally, um, we’ve done wonderfully with this in the church, you know? No. Rich Birch — Insert sarcasm emoji. Matt Steen — Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Let’s, let’s be clear on that one. But I mean, so we’ve, we’ve struggled with this. Rich Birch — Yeah. Matt Steen — And we’ve got a lot of churches that have never once mentioned the succession word that all of a sudden, you know, have six months. You know, and a lot of the, a lot of the work that I’m doing right now, I call it crash succession, it’s succession processes where, um, it’s been less than 18 months of actually being able to prepare for it. And most, most of that work is less than 12 months. And so that’s, that’s a big one. But the other, the other piece of this, um, and I think it’s, I, I know it’s, I know it’s related, but the other piece of this, Rich, is, is our pipeline and our bench depth, okay? We’re struggling, um, in the capital “C” church. Matt Steen — Um, right now with our bench depth, um, youth pastor researchers have become the toughest that we do. And a lot of that is because, you know, a lot of the rising generations, you know, have, have said, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to go in, I don’t want to go into ministry. And one of the big, I think one of the biggest struggles that, or we kind of found ourselves in a bit of a perfect storm here because we’ve got, you know, a lot of bible colleges are shutting down their ministry programs cuz they don’t drive enough revenue. Um, a lot of seminaries are struggling to graduate students that actually want to go into local church ministry. You know, they’re, they’re going out and getting an MDiv and using it as like a vanity degree. It’s like, that’s a huge degree to get if you’re not gonna use it. Rich Birch — Right. Matt Steen — But they’re struggling to, to, to, and so we, we need to figure out how do we, um, help people discern a call to ministry? How do we get them to a point where they’re trained and ready to go and equipped and empowered to go do ministry? Um, and release ’em to go do it. And we just, I think over the last, the last few decades we have, we’ve really struggled with this. And I think we’ll have to pay the piper on that. And so, again, gloom and doom. I think there’s hope, you know, God’s not surprised by this, but those, those are the things that keep me up. And those are the two big things that I’m praying for right now local church-wise. Rich Birch — Yeah. You know, it’s interesting, I was in the last year I was at, um, was onsite at a church doing some coaching stuff and was talking to their young adults pastor and, you know, they had just come back from a young adult retreat and this, you know, couple hundred kids, they went away to this big conference center and all that. And I was like, tell me about it. And, and I was really encouraged because it was so rare and, and, and kind of old school. I said, well, tell me about what was going on. And so he was telling me about people who made first time commitments to Christ, which I was obviously amazing. But then he also was saying, he’s talking about how they, one of the services really focused on the call to ministry. Matt Steen — Yeah. Rich Birch — And it was like, it was like, and I remember that from when I was that age… Matt Steen — Yeah. Rich Birch — …that was like an old school, like that was a part of those ministries. But I said to this leader, I was like, thank you for doing that because… Matt Steen — Yes. Rich Birch — …I don’t know that I’ve heard anyone do that in like 10, 15 years. Like, we need to specifically articulate to that generation, Hey, you know, are you, this is a, this is a noble cause; this is a noble thing for you to, you know, step towards. Love that. Matt Steen — That’s, that’s awesome. And that’s so good to hear, because Todd, Todd’s tired of hearing me say this. Cuz I’ve, I’ve said for a while, I came, I came to faith, you know, in college, so I didn’t grow up in the church and all that kind of stuff. And when I first started at Bible college, I would hear stories about that. You know, my pastor did a, they did the altar call and then they did the second altar call, who’s, who wants to… And, and really, I thought it was cheesy back then because, you know, I was, you know, twenties and knew everything and everything was cheesy, um. But dude, I, I, so I so regret that we’ve gotten out of that, you know, as the church. So I’m so excited to hear you say that. That, that, that’s pretty, that that gives me hope, man. That’s really cool. Rich Birch — Yeah. And they do it, they do it every year at their kind of, they’re young, this big young adult retreat thing. And it’s like a whole bunch of churches together, a thousand, 1,500 kids. Matt Steen — That’s so cool. Rich Birch — And, and they follow up and they have a whole system for like getting kids, you know, great, you’re interested in that. Matt Steen — Yeah. Rich Birch — Let’s get you plugged in, which is, you know, is fantastic. So that was great. Well, I know… Todd Rhoades — That was, that was a huge pipeline to, to get people to… Rich Birch — Absolutely. Todd Rhoades — …get into Christian college and seminary and to start that to talk, nobody talks about calling anymore. And and, uh, so we’ve, we’ve, we’ve essentially, because we’re not doing that, we’ve seen one of our biggest recruitment tools… Matt Steen — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — …for ministry, um, kind of dry up. And Matt and I are, are so excited about the future of the church. Um, but, but the little secret is, is most churches don’t do well in, in training up leaders and in discipleship. Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Todd Rhoades — And if, if churches did a better job at training leaders from within, a lot of the work that we do with churches wouldn’t be necessary because… Matt Steen — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — …they would have this kind of internal pipeline. Some churches do that really well. Other churches just have, you know, they’ve, they’re a generation removed from really investing in young people and saying, Hey, this is a, this is something worthy of giving your life and your calling to. Matt Steen — Totally. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. Well, I love painting. Oh, sorry, go ahead Matt. I keep cutting you off, man. Matt Steen — We keep doing that, man. Todd Rhoades — We’re kinda passionate about this stuff. Matt Steen — Yeah. We, we, we, we really are. Because it’s like, to to Todd’s point, you know, people keep asking us, well, how do we keep our staff? How do we keep our staff? And it’s the same, it’s the same answer. Right? It’s, it’s… Rich Birch — Right. Matt Steen — You know, if, if you’ve got a youth pastor, you know, sit down with him and say, Hey dude, where do you see yourself in five years? Rich Birch — Yeah. Matt Steen — And start developing the way for him to get there, you know, and, and, that’s, that’s how he stays an extra five years instead of leaving in 18 months. Rich Birch — Yeah. Matt Steen — You know, is is that development mindset, you know, go release; let ’em go do their thing man. And that’s, we, we, we get that, we get that throughout the whole church, man. We’re, Todd and I are out of, out of business. And frankly, I’m, I think I’m okay with that. You okay with that, Todd? Todd Rhoades — You’ll find something else to do. Matt Steen — You gonna pay the mortgage somehow, you know, Nelly. I’m, I’m cool with that. Rich Birch — Yeah. You’ll get that dog back running in the dog races there. Yeah. That’s what you’ll do. Matt Steen — There you go. You’re you’re gonna get me some hate mail now. Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, I, I kind of like, uh, painting Matt as the negative guy and Todd as the positive guy – that kind of makes me, that makes life better for me. So Todd, what, what are you guys doing about this? What, how, how is Chemistry Staffing helping with this whole church health area? How can you help? What do you, because I know this is a passion area for you guys. You, you know, you’re… Todd Rhoades — Yeah. Rich Birch — Obviously you, you, you do searches, but you’re passionate about the whole long-term fit thing and health is a big part of what you do. What are you doing to help them get and stay healthy? Todd Rhoades — Absolutely. When we started six years ago, um, our, one of our main goals was to try and help the hiring process suck a little less. Matt Steen — Can we say that? Rich Birch — Okay. Yes. I love it. Todd Rhoades — This is, this is our first audience. We can say that I believe. Rich Birch — Yeah, you could say it. Todd Rhoades — But no, both for the church and for the candidate. Right? We’ve, and we’ve been, I’ve been doing staffing stuff for a long time. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard a candidate say, I love searching. I love the whole search transition process. And churches never love the hiring process either. I mean, there’s a certain level of excitement. But at the same time, everybody kind of loathes the process. Rich Birch — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — And, and you know, if you’re a church, you’re, you’re scared about making a bad decision. If you’re a candidate, you’re scared about making a bad decision. Right? So we want to try and, and mitigate that as much as we can. So our framework, and I think we’ve talked with you about this before, but I’m just really… Rich Birch — Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Todd Rhoades — …really five really quick things. We, we try and… Rich Birch — Totally. Todd Rhoades — …to get that healthy long-term fit, really looking at five things, and we tell candidates and we tell churches, look, you can’t compromise. And this is one of the reasons why it may take longer to find the right person. You really can’t compromise on these five things. You’ve gotta have a great theo theological fit. Right? They need to be, they need to believe, uh, the things about Jesus that you believe about Jesus. Um, they need to be a good cultural and DNA fit for your church. Um, so you, and we assess for all this stuff with all of our churches and all of our candidates on the very upfront before we even have a conversation with them. So, uh, they need to match the personality of your church. Todd Rhoades — That’s number three. Number four, they need to have the skills and abilities, the experience, um, and, and the wherewithal to actually do the job that you need them to do. So, uh, you, you’ve gotta do some skills and ability assessments there as well. And then there just has to be, uh, a what we call it the chemistry factor. Go figure. The, the, the, when it comes to chemistry, it’s, it’s, you only learn that by boots on the ground… Rich Birch — Right, right. Todd Rhoades — …shaking hands across the table, doing life together. Um, but, uh, you know, not only, not only do you like this person, but can you see yourself doing ministry with this person for the next five years? Rich Birch — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — Can they see themselves living in your community for the next five years? Do you want to have this, this person in their family over to your house for a barbecue on Tuesday night? Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Rhoades — Um, do you, as, as Matt puts it, you know, if, if when you pull into the church parking lot in the morning at, at 8:30 before, uh, you know, to start your day and you see that that person just walked in the building, do you need an extra five minutes just to kind of pray yourself through so you don’t feel, and you don’t dread going into the office with this those… But seriously, those things happen all the time, so, if you can get those five things down, um, we really think that increases the likelihood of a, what we call that healthy long-term fit. Uh, so we try to, we try to process our candidates this process with our candidates in the process with our churches as well. And part of the thing that is, every church is different and every candidate is different. There’s no cookie cutters. So, uh, and that’s part of what makes our work so challenging. But part of what makes our our work so exciting is that, uh, every church and every candidate is different. So the, the, the thrill that you kind of get when you find, uh, a candidate and a church that match all five of those is, is really, really cool. Rich Birch — Hmm. So good. That’s great. Now, I know you are, um, rolling out an assessment that, and this is the part where we’re so glad if you’re listening in, uh, live, you’re gonna get a chance to learn about this. But can you tell us about this 2023 staff, uh, church staff health assessment that you are, uh, rolling out, Todd? Can you let us know about that? Todd Rhoades — Yes. Well, this is the first time we’ve said anything about this outside of Matt and myself and our small team here. Rich Birch — Love it. Todd Rhoades — So it’s, it’s actually gonna launch in a couple weeks on, uh, I believe April 24th. But since you’re listening here, we would love to have you, it’s, it’s all ready to go. Uh, you can kind of preview this. It’s totally free. What this is, is we’re calling our 2023 Church Staff Health Assessment. It’s, it’s 50 really quick questions that are gonna, um, give you, uh, some insight and you’ll get a, you’ll get a score at the end of it. It’ll take you maybe 10, maybe 15 minutes to take. But at the, uh, at the end of that assessment, we’re going to, uh, kind of give you a score, a health score, uh, based on, uh, communication, on job satisfaction, on leadership, uh, team dynamics, compensation and benefits, work environment, and future, your future stability on a on a staff team. Todd Rhoades — So you’re gonna get a lot of information just by taking it. But what we wanna do, uh, and, and we think this is gonna be huge, um, for us and for the church moving forward, is we want to get a pulse. Really, so much has changed in the past three years. We wanna get a pulse. Okay, so how, how are—and this is open to all full-time and part-time, um, paid staff, people at churches—we wanna find out how, what’s the state of health in, in most church staff; how are they feeling? Are they feeling appreciated? Are they feeling, uh, like their compensation level is good? Do they feel healthy? Do they, do they wanna stay where they are? Do they, do they feel appreciated? Um, all those kind of things are gonna be a part of that. Todd Rhoades — Uh, and like I said, we’re gonna, we’re gonna, it’s gonna run from April 24th to May 19th. And then… Rich Birch — Love it. Todd Rhoades — …I think we’re actually gonna come back and do a podcast with you to kind of announce… Rich Birch — Yes. Todd Rhoades — …uh, some of what we, well, all of what we’ve, what we’ve what we’ve learned through this assessment. So our goal right now is just to kind of introduce it, get as many people to take the assessment as we can um, and kind of go from there. And they, anybody today can, it’s, it’s ready to go right now. You can just go to, uh, uh, churchstaffassessment.com. Rich Birch — Great. Love it. So that’s churchstaffassessment.com. We want you to drop by there and, uh, and take it today. Now is this, so I got a chance to get a little bit of a sneak preview on this, friends, and this is a great thing. Like this when I, and I can’t believe you’re not charging for this, right? This is like a free thing. Todd Rhoades — No, no. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely free. Rich Birch — You guys are crazy. Like this thing, not charge it for this. Matt Steen — What? Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. Todd Rhoades — Well, we never thought of that, Matt. Rich Birch — No, but seriously, I’m like, so many people do these kind of things and it feels like, oh, this is like a, I don’t know, like, it’s just like a marketing thing or whatever, but this man, and this looks super helpful for churches, for church leaders. It’s the kind of thing that I think would be great. Are, are you envisioning that we would do this? We’d send it to our teams? How are you picturing that this could kind of be used in our, uh, you know, our church environments? Todd Rhoades — Well, essentially, I think, um, so come later this year, probably in the fall, this is gonna come from, right now the assessment is a candidate assessment, but I think we’re gonna actually turn that into a church assessment, and there probably will be some paid options for that. But, um, what, what that’s gonna do, what we’re doing with the, with the candidate assessment, is we’re trying to gather as, as large of a pool of candidates and get as much data in there as we can. Rich Birch — Okay. Todd Rhoades — So that we can say, Hey, here, on a national average, uh, here, here are on all of these 50 data points, uh, here is how the average candidate feels. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — And then when we can, what we can do is when we come back to, in the fall, is we can come to a church and say, okay, so here’s, here’s what the heartbeat is nationally. What does it look like for your church? How how… Rich Birch — Got it. Okay, that makes sense. Todd Rhoades — …each of those, those areas. How, how are your staff able to do? And the other thing I wanna mention too, Rich, is that this, all of the answers are confidential. Rich Birch — Perfect. Yeah. Todd Rhoades — We’ll ask you, we’ll ask you at the end for your name and email only, so that we can send you that full report at the end. But we’re not sharing, we’re not sharing individual answers or anything with, with anybody’s boss or anything… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. Todd Rhoades — …as a cumulative thing to gather the, the information as a whole. Rich Birch — Yeah. You gotta attach it to a real person. Make sure it’s not… <inaudible> Todd Rhoades — If I’m a pastor, if I’m a pastor and I’m getting ready to hire a new staff person, I want to know what the health of my current team is. And I, and other than, uh, I don’t know that there’s a really great tool out there to do that right now other than, you know, just, which is, which is a great tool asking people how they’re doing. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, yeah. Todd Rhoades — Kinda doing some of the healthy things that we said earlier. Rich Birch — Yeah. Totally. Love it. Again, so that is church staff, uh, health assessment… Todd Rhoades — Just church staff assessment. Yep. Rich Birch — churchstaffassessment.com. Um, which is wonderful. So I’d love for you to go by and take a look at that. Friends, we’re gonna, we’re gonna pivot here in the last little bit of our call to questions, so make sure you drop those in. Uh, if you’re listening to the recording, why were you not here live? You missed out. You did not get your li your questions answered. But, uh, we will, uh, we’ll get a chance to, to answer those. So, uh, but again, we wanna make sure you go to churchstaffassessment.com. Uh, you can get early access to that. Rich Birch — Okay. So Tricia’s got a question here. She’s saying, how do you manage the tension of hiring NextGen versus hiring the most skilled and qualified? Tricia, this is a great question, and I’m gonna want both Matt and Todd to answer this. We’ll start with you, Matt, because this, I think is like, this is the quintessential question. Do we hire someone with lots of potential or do we hire someone with proven capacity? And how do we, you know, how do we figure that out? Um, Matt, let’s start with you and then I’d love to go to you, Todd, as well. Todd Rhoades — I know what Matt’s gonna say. It’s two words. Go ahead, Matt. Rich Birch — You can tell you’ve been working together for a while. Todd Rhoades — It depends. That was Matt’s answer. It depends. Matt Steen — So, so yeah. So, okay, so yes, it, it depends on where you are ministry wise and what the, what the situation that you’re in, in is. But here’s, here’s the deal. And, and I think, and I, I don’t wanna pick on Tricia cuz she’s in the Baltimore area, and I grew up in Baltimore, and you know, we’re where people go, go birds. Um, yeah. Matt Steen — So, so, but so many times people start there, okay? They start in skills and abilities and, and skillset. Right? And, and so part of why we always go back to the five, the five pieces is because it’s more than just skills. It’s more than just, Hey, what church did they work at? Can they, can they do it there or not? Right? And so, we’ve got to, we, we’ve got to start with theology, culture, personality because if, if this person has all the skills in the world and they, you know, you know, they’re a rockstar Jesus, it doesn’t matter if theologically you guys are, if you theologically you guys are in different places when it comes to women in ministry or something like that. It’s never gonna work, right? Rich Birch — Right. Matt Steen — So, so, so yes. Um, there’s times when you want the skilled person; there’s times when you wanna take the chance on somebody that’s coming in. Here’s, here’s the piece though. And I’m, I’m honestly, and this is gonna be an unpopular answer, and Todd’s gonna have to go in PR cleanup for us. Rich Birch — <laughs> Love it. Matt Steen — This, this’ll go viral and our competitors are gonna love it. One of the things that I’ve really been thinking about here a lot lately is, is one of the, um, one of the, one of the complaints that we, we hear older generations sharing about the younger generation is that the younger generations wanna start where their parents left off, right? Rich Birch — Oh, interesting. Matt Steen — And, and they’re not willing to go and sacrifice and be in the, you know, the cheap apartment and all that kind of stuff. And, and I sometimes wonder if we haven’t taken that, you know, the thing that we’re complaining about and putting it into the church and saying, Hey, we need to we need to start where, where the other guy left off. Right? Matt Steen — So many times we’re talking about succession and we’re saying, Hey, our pastor’s been here for 15 years and we need somebody that’s gonna be, you know, just like who he is now for the 15 years to come. Well, it took 15 years for that guy to get to that point, right? Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Matt Steen — He needed somebody had to take a chance on him or, and, and kind of help them kind of gain their skills and abilities through. Now, I’m not saying don’t take somebody who’s absolutely not qualified, you know? There, there needs to be some ability to think ministry wise, but sometimes we need to realize that going into this, you know, maybe, maybe the person that we hire, they, they may not be, they, they may be a little bit greener than what would be ideal, but they’ve got the fundamentals and we can pour into them. Matt Steen — And, you know, part of, part of our role has to be pouring into the next generation, whether they’re on staff, whether they’re in our congregation, whether they’re in our age grade ministries, that kind of stuff. We need to be developing this next generation for us to continue to exist. And so, so I think we need to go more towards the side of risking on the next generation. Now, a lot of people of a certain age are gonna say, Hey, now you’re saying I can’t get a job, and I’m not saying that. But I think, you know, I think that we need to take that, that idea of being a little bit more willing to take a, take a risk on somebody who, who may not have the resume yet, but has the potential to pour into it. I think that’s, I think that’s an okay thing as long as they line up in all, in all of those areas. Um… Rich Birch — Right. Matt Steen — Now, if, if you’ve got a ministry that’s just, you know, it’s, it’s blowing up and, and you don’t have the capacity to really mentor the next person, then you gotta get somebody who’s, who’s got some seasoning to ’em. Rich Birch — Right. Matt Steen — But I don’t, I sometimes wonder if we need to rethink what our workload is if we don’t have the time to really develop the next generation leaders on our staff team. Rich Birch — No, that’s good. Matt Steen — All right. Clean me up, Todd. Rich Birch — That’s good. Todd Rhoades — Yeah, I think everybody, everybody wants somebody that can hit the ground running. Matt Steen — Yes. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — Everybody, I mean, everybody we talk to. Um, sometimes that, so I’ll bring out the, the negative connotation of that. Um, sometimes when you say you want somebody that can hit the ground running is we want to hire somebody that we can set it and forget it, right? Rich Birch — Mmm. Oh that’s good. Todd Rhoades — And that, that is not a good way to hire. So if you’re a senior pastor and your main goal for hiring a youth pastor is I need to hire a youth pastor so that I don’t ever have to deal with youth… Rich Birch — Yes. <laugh> Todd Rhoades — …is, is a non-healthy way to look at it. Okay? Rich Birch — Sure. Todd Rhoades — So if, if, and what Matt said, and it goes back to what we were saying five minutes ago about discipleship and training up leaders, right? Is, sure, I get it. You’re a senior pastor and you want, you want to have somebody that’s competent that can handle an area. But you also need to be available to, to speak in, to train, to build in, to have those conver conversations. Like Matt said, where do you see yourself in five years? How can we help you get there? You know? Those kind of discussions, if you’re not having those discussions, if you’re not building in, um, it’s, that’s where the 18, you know, 12 to 18 months to 24 months where they take off cuz they don’t feel appreciated. The other thing I would say is, is we’re seeing another reason why we’re so, uh, bullish on the church is we’re seeing a ton of really everything we’ve said about, you know, hard time recruiting people. There are some really, really incredibly sharp people—we call ’em Jesus with a guitar, internally—really sharp people coming into ministry that are gonna just absolutely kill it. But they’re not set, they’re not set it and forget it people. Uh, they, they, they actually want the mentoring and the, the hand holding a little. They don’t wanna be micromanaged… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — …but they, they want, they want that input. Uh, and, and they will hit the ground running, but they won’t do exactly, they won’t do everything exactly the same way the last person did it, nor should you expect them to. So um… Rich Birch — That’s good. Todd Rhoades — …don’t, don’t if, if you’re trying to do the set it and forget it, you’re gonna look over a lot of candidates that could really… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — …kill it at your church. Rich Birch — Well, I was gonna, I was gonna ask a kind of a co-related question, which is how often do you—and we can stick with you, Todd, on this one—how often from your vantage point point are you talking with the church where, and you don’t have to, you know, like how often are you talking with the church where they, you think they, they’re missing a great next hire because of this? Where they’re like, ah, like I, man, I, I just wish they would take a risk on this person. I think it could be a great thing. Is that common and you run into that all the time? Todd Rhoades — Uh, I wouldn’t say all the time. We run into it quite often. Rich Birch — Right, right. Todd Rhoades — Where, where we’ve, and, and some of, honestly, and Matt can push back on this, some of our best work, I think are sometimes taking candidates that we think, so this, this person can do exactly what you’ve told us you need to have done, but they don’t look exactly like the person that you thought this person would look like. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Oh, that’s good insight. Todd Rhoades — And, and so is it, is it risky? Um, every hire is risky. But yeah, we, we really try to, to, uh, sometimes we’re even surprised at the people that we find that are like, you know, even some of this doesn’t make sense, but man, could this be cool? Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Totally. Todd Rhoades — So, and sometimes churches are really open and responsive and receptive to that, and other, other times it’s just, you know, a little bit too much. So, and, and we get it. But the, that’s the fun part of the work. Rich Birch — Yeah. I, you know, I’ve found over the years that man give me a team of, I, I think sometimes when we hire people, we’re looking for the, what is the, the example, the Michael Jordan, the, you know, Wayne Gretzky, the whatever, the, I’m not a sports guy, whatever, whoever the most recent, like the, uh, the superstars, like, we’re looking for that. Or, or we say like, man, I’m not even sure Jesus can do this job. Like, they’re like the, the, that’s what we’re looking for. But actually over time, the more hiring I’ve done, I’m just convinced if I can find solid, like B+ players, <laugh>, you know, who are, who are great. You know, they’re like, it’s the difference between the guy who always gets a home run and the guy who always gets on base. Man, the guy who always gets on base, man that is, uh, or the woman who always gets on base, man, that’s, I can, you can do a lot, you can build great organizations on the back of that. So I, I love that. Matt Steen — I I tell you, I tell you what Rich, you know, I know I’m the gloom and doom guy, but that’s what gives me the hope for the church, right? Rich Birch — Sure. Matt Steen — That right there. Rich Birch — You’re not the doom, gloom guy. Matt, come here, gimme a big hug. You’re not the doom and gloom guy. Matt Steen — I, I feel, I feel I feel better, man. I, I love, you know, so many of the churches that we work with are guys that you are never gonna get published, right? They’re, they’re, you’re, you’re never gonna know their name. They’re never gonna go viral, but they are doing slow and steady work in communities… Rich Birch — Yes. Matt Steen — …and having such incredible impact. And it’s like, yeah, you’re never gonna know their name. And, and they, they may not have been the, the, the rising star coming outta seminary or anything like that, but they’re, they’re, they’re seeing people come to faith. They’re, they’re walking marriages through crises, right? Rich Birch — Yeah. Matt Steen — They’re, they’re baptized in pe It’s, it is crazy what they’re, what they’re doing. And there’s so many of those people out there. It’s, it’s really encouraging. That’s probably my favorite part of, favorite part of my job besides, you know, working, working with Todd. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. Well, I’ve got a question, uh, that since you’re here and all the people have listened to the end, I’m gonna ask you, I’m gonna throw this one to Matt. This is spicy meatball, spicy meatball question. Matt Steen — Oh, no. Rich Birch — Hopefully our relationship can sustain this. Matt Steen — It depends. Rich Birch — Um, so you’ve seen where this has gone wrong. Like you’ve seen the, like, okay, we hired somebody and, and either they came through your service or you were talking to a, a church and they’ve now come to your you because they hired somebody and it didn’t go well. Like, it, it was like, you know, x number of months later, and it was like a little bit of a gong show. I’m sure you’ve seen one or two of those. Are there any common things, common factors – maybe it’s in the five, it’s like there’s one of those that keeps coming back time and again, or maybe there’s a common trade or something that we should be looking for when we’re hiring? Where does this just go wrong when it, when it goes wrong? Matt Steen — So when it, when it goes wrong, here’s the common theme. Rich Birch — Yeah. Matt Steen — Um, most, more often than not, people forget the first three of our five factors, and they, they start with skills and abilities. They look at a resume, they say, oh, I know that church. That’s a great church. Rich Birch — Right, right. Matt Steen — I listen to their pastors podcast. That’s awesome. Of course they can do the job, right? Rich Birch — Yes. Matt Steen — And then they start to interview ’em based on, based on that alone. And they start to laugh at the person’s jokes and they say, oh, he reminds me of my grandson. You know? And they start to fall in love relationally. And, and there’s a, there’s a, there’s a degree of chemistry there. They, they fall into like, and all that kind of stuff. And, and in the back of their head, you know, you’ve got this question about, yeah, I do know that church, but you know what, they’re, they’re a little bit different than how we operate. Oh, it’ll be fine. Jesus will make it work. And it, and typically somewhere around 12 to 18 months in, they start to realize, oh, maybe Jesus isn’t gonna kind of smooth out our differences on women in ministry. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe the fact that we’re Wesleyan and, and he’s pretty hardcore reformed um, maybe that’s not gonna work itself out. Right. Rich Birch — Right, right. Matt Steen — And that’s, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s when it, that’s when it goes sideways. It’s, we, we short circuit things and we really, we, we really don’t think that theology is as important as it is. Or we really don’t realize that, you know, that church of 2000 works a little bit differently than our church of 500. Right? Rich Birch — Yeah. Matt Steen — Or, or maybe those, those personality quirks that, that are cute, you know, during the interview, they’re gonna cause us to take a hostage down the road. You know, I, that’s… Rich Birch — Sure. Matt Steen — That’s, that’s what, that’s what I’d say. I don’t know, Todd, if you think I’m, if you think I’m off. Rich Birch — Yeah. Anything else on that, Todd? Todd Rhoades — Yeah, I don’t know that there’s any, any one thing. I mean, uh… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Rhoades — We, but, but we do hear, we do hear the theology and the culture pieces all the time. Matt Steen — Yeah. Todd Rhoades — That there are mismatches. And again, what Matt, I’ll reemphasize what Matt just said. A lot of times we fall in love too early before we even ask the tough questions. And I’ll tell you, once you fall in love with a candidate, um, and it’s the same, you know, we say this all the time with assessments. That’s why we do, uh, any of our candidates or churches, we do the assessments on the very front end is because we we’re full believers in assessments. But we, we think churches wait way too long to do the assessments. They, they fall in love with a candidate. They bring ’em in for the onsite visit, and before they, before they offer the, you know, the, here’s, we’d like to bring you on our, here, take this Enneagram or take this, uh, you know… Rich Birch — Right, right. Todd Rhoades — …Strength Finders. It doesn’t make any difference. There could be like glaring discrepancies and red flags and those things… Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re just gonna justify it. Todd Rhoades — You’re gonna justify it cause you love them. Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Todd Rhoades — They’re, they’re great. We love their family. His wife is awesome. We love his… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Rhoades — …he’s got kids the same age as my kids, man. Um, all that stuff supersedes what could be like the really important things that are gonna cause somebody to leave in 18 months. Rich Birch — Yeah. One of the smartest things… So I, I had the privilege of working with Tim Lucas at Liquid Church for years with you guys, which you guys know, and he, he’s a smart leader on, brought a bunch of fronts. But one of the smartest things he realized early in his, in his leadership, like really once the church started growing was he was like, I need to be in these conversations at the very end because every one of these, I get in and I’m like, we should hire this person. This person’s amazing. Like, they’re, and and, and then he was like, and he was self-aware. He was like, then I go into sales mode and I’m like, I’m just trying to figure out, I’m trying to woo this person to say, Hey, come here, come here, come here. And so he, you know, smartly was like, I need to pull myself outta this, and only come in when we actually want this person. Like, do not trust me to o be able to, you know… And they’ve built an incredible staff team, you know, on that. And, and, you know, and it’s worked out and they’ve, you know, which is, but that takes a, that takes a, uh, a depth of, uh, emotional intelligence and, uh, and humility to be able to declare that with your, with your leadership team. So, love that. Which is not surprising. He’s a great leader. So he’s good at that stuff. Rich Birch — Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. I, again, I can’t believe we’ve got both of you guys in one room. It’s been so, it’s been so honored to have you here today. Uh, as we wrap up, Matt, I’ve been kicking you a little bit. I’m gonna give you the final last words today. What, what do you wanna say as we wrap up? How can people connect with Chemistry Staffing? I, I really do, I say this to people, I don’t say this just because you guys are a sponsor. When people are, talk to me on both sides, either they’re a church or a candidate, like about these kind of things. I always say like, Hey, you should talk to the guys over at Chemistry Staffing, give your website, chemistrystaffing.com. But what, what would you say, what would you say, you know, what would your kind of final words for today’s conversation? Matt Steen — Yeah, I, so, so yes, I am the doom and gloom guy, but man, I tell you what I am, I’m incredibly optimistic for, for, for the church. We, we really are. You know, there’s a lot of, you know, we just need to shift a little bit about what we’re doing, need to focus a little bit about culture, start developing the next generation. Man, I tell you what, we’re, we’re, we’re gonna be in good shape. But we’d love, love to be able to serve you guys and really would love, if you guys do, go to churchstaffassessment.com and, and, and, and take that, I think that’s gonna be an incredible tool for the church. So much has changed over these last three years. Um, I think that’s gonna give us a really good snapshot on overall church health, um, in this country. So… Rich Birch — Love it. Well, love you guys. I’m so thankful for the work you do for the church. Thanks for being on here. Again, friends, we’d remind you to go to churchstaffassessment.com, uh, to fill that out. You can do that up until May 19th. So you’ve got, you should do it today, be the first people in on it, but you’ve got only got until May 19th to do that. So make sure you get in, uh, and do that. What a great tool. I appreciate you guys providing this. Uh, thanks so much for being on the call today. Have a good day. Todd Rhoades — Great. Thank you.

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kasey Husen, the Executive Director of Communicatons and Events at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. Kasey talks with us about the importance of having a Communications Director at the senior leadership level at your church. Beyond branding and marketing, Kasey shares how they can create engagement and clarity to help your church win. The role in the church. // Early on in her time on staff at Crossroads, Kasey served as admin to the worship pastor. From her seat she continually observed a problem with announcements not creating the engagement desired, as well as their cutting into the sermon time. Ultimately she was able to bring organization to that area, eventually leading to her becoming the Executive Director of Communications and Events. Now her primary responsibility is to find clarity in all things and make it transferable to the staff to take action. Drive for clarity. // Lack of clarity is a major barrier for winning. Churches seem to naturally drift into doing a lot of things that require attention from the staff, the budget, and the congregation in order to be successful. And yet ministry leaders are disappointed with the outcomes. Kasey’s drive for clarity ensures that Crossroads and its ministry teams are winning at the goals they work toward. Ask questions and speak up. // Kasey says that her primary role as the clarity champion on the executive team has to be fully embraced by the whole executive leadership. They all have to want to provide clarity to people outside of the room where decisions are made (ie – to other staff and congregation). The role of the communications director requires a lot of question-asking, speaking up, and acting as air traffic controller. They are often the canary in the coal mine and see the needs of all of the different ministries within the organization. Part of the senior leadership team. // For most churches, the executive team is the one making the strategic decisions each week. But a lot of the leaders forget that the conversations and decisions being made in those meetings result in the need to collaborate with other ministry leaders outside of that room. Having your communications director in your decision-making meetings can give you an early opportunity to talk through the barriers you need to address to get the people outside the meeting to embrace your decisions. Building trust. // Managing the challenge of what to announce from the stage is a continual tension to navigate. Ask questions of your senior leadership to discern what’s most important to them and what they’ll be most disappointed about if there’s a lack of engagement. Communications directors need to learn to lead up to the executive leadership in the church. But Kasey stresses that before providing critical feedback, first you need to build relationships and trust, reiterating that you are on their side and are committed to supporting their God-given vision for the church. High engagement opportunities. // In Crossroads’ pursuit of clarity and helping their teams hit their overarching goals, the church works to pair ministry opportunities with major initiatives or messages each week. This often creates the highest engagement because the announcement is getting multiple impressions and moving the hearts of the congregation to action in multiple ways throughout the service. You can learn more about Crossroads Christian Church at www.crossroadschurch.com and email Kasey. Or find her on Instagram at KaseyHusen. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Industries Doing Church in a Rented Facility can be a Challenge. Questions about Multisiting or Portability?Click here to connect with our Multisite Specialist for a free evaluation. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey, everybody! Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Super excited for today’s conversation – you know every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you and today is no example is no exception to that. There’s a perfect example of that trying to say two things at once. Ah, Kasey Husen – I’m super excited to have her ah on the podcast. She is the communications the Executive Director of Communications and Events at a fantastic church Crossroads Christian Church located in Corona, California — one of the fastest growing churches in the country. You, if you’re a longtime listener, you might remember earlier ah, that was maybe a month ago six weeks ago we had Taleah Murray on and she was just fantastic, fantastic episode. And so I said, Taleah, who else should we have? And she said, you should talk to Kasey. So so glad to have Kasey on. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Kasey Husen — Thank you for having me, Rich. Super excited to talk with you today. Rich Birch — Oh I’m looking forward to this as well. Communication is so critically important to all of our churches, and so to be able to tap your expertise today is just incredible. So fill out the picture for folks that don’t know kind of talk to us about Crossroads, kind of fill in that picture a little bit. What… tell us about the church and then tell us about your role there. Kasey Husen — Yeah, so as Taleah shared earlier in the the podcast you did with her, our church is about 130 years old. That’s very unique. And so we’re a multi-generational church located in a beautiful area of Corona, which is located in Southern California. Um, and so kind of funny thing, I have grown up here in this church. This is… Rich Birch — Oh fun! Kasey Husen — …Ah yeah, although I’ve done a couple different roles in ministry here, I have really spent my entire life either going to the school or attending the church. It’s a huge part of my story and I really, ah through teachers at our school and then ultimately church leaders here, discovered a lot of my different gifting. My parents were not necessarily um disciples of Christ and raising me. It was actually my grandmother who said, Hey we should send her to a private christian school. And that’s how I ended up here. Um, and my parents worked full time so I spent a lot of time on this campus. And I credit a lot of where I am today, ah, both spiritually and professionally, with the way that people here have developed me into this place… Rich Birch — So good. Kasey Husen — …and helped me really recognize my gifts and using my my my gifts to ah to a purpose within the church. And that’s still the same today. For so many people who are part of this church, we are really passionate about the next generation. If you were to take in one of our services online or to come to our campus, that’s just something that you cannot miss about Crossroads. Rich Birch — So good. Well this is great, and and talk to us about the role Executive Director of Communications and Events kind of frame that up. Help us understand kind of what does that look like. What ah when how do you describe that you you meet someone and they say, so what do you do at the church. What do you say to them? Kasey Husen — Yeah, well I can give you a little bit of background on how I got here. It’s a little bit funny. Rich Birch — Sure. Kasey Husen — Um you know, ah I’ve been in communications now as the Communications Director for the last 11 years at Crossroads. But prior to that I was actually asked to join the staff as an admin to our worship pastor. So ah, you know prior to that, like I said, I had served in this church for pretty much my whole life. But I really had no idea what church staff members could possibly do, working on a church staff for 40 hours a week. No I laugh at that of course. Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — I know most of us are working more than 40 hours a week… Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — …on really important stuff. But I say this because I came in with no experience. But I really had some strong admin skills and some fresh eyes. And since so much of what our worship pastor does is in partnership with our senior pastor, I really learned a lot quickly about our culture. And I got the opportunity to have a front seat to learn our DNA and what was important to our senior pastor, simply by observing interactions that I would see in weekly meetings. One of those meetings included a debrief of the previous weekend service and a look forward to the one that was coming. And at that time we had slated about 5 minutes in our service every week for the announcements. You know, for a talking person… Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — …to get up there and to deliver announcements. And this funny thing happened in this meeting. I observed it for probably a year; ministry leaders would come in to that particular meeting and they would sort of pitch to give their announcement for their ministry that coming Sunday. And as far as I could tell there was really no schedule or max on how many people we could say yes to… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …that would get airtime that coming weekend. So I just observed most of the time they would say yes to all of them. And we all know what happens… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …in that announcement space, especially back when most of us were doing, you know, the talking experience for 5 minutes. A lot of people tuned out. They didn’t engage with any of our calls to action. And the funny thing is in the debrief portion of that meeting every week our senior pastor was chronically disappointed with the fact that he had to cut off time from his sermon, because the announcement time inevitably moved from 5 minutes… Rich Birch — Went long. Kasey Husen — …up toward 10 minutes. Rich Birch — Love it. Kasey Husen — And he’d usually be disappointed that one of the 5 things we talked about that day did not really get engagement. So, to my surprise nobody was really making this connection or tackling this problem because there was no person in this seat… Rich Birch — It’s all happening right here in this meeting. Right here! Kasey Husen — Exactly! I’m observing the whole thing; I’m picking up on all the patterns. And ah so eventually I told our senior pastor. I said I think I can help bring some organization to this area of the service… Rich Birch — Love it. Kasey Husen — …just this 5 minutes… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …and create more of a win for our ministries where people would actually engage with what we’re talking about. And keep the part of the service from cutting into his messages every week. Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — So he said yes to that, and then that eventually led to me becoming what I didn’t even know was a role in churches at the time, the Communications Director. Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — This was just all based off of you know, instinct and so um… Rich Birch — I see a problem. Let’s fix it. Yeah, I love it. Kasey Husen — Exactly, exactly. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kasey Husen — And so it really evolved from from really purely organizing that portion of the service, to really being the primary champion of clarity on our staff. Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — And that’s that’s really what I would say if I can name one thing um I’ve dedicated my time and responsibility to finding clarity, in all things, ah to make it transferable to our staff to take action. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So let’s dig into that a little bit more. How has… so I think there’s too many people that are listening in that feel that pain. Kasey Husen — Yes. Rich Birch — They’ve been in that meeting, maybe yesterday they were in that meeting… Kasey Husen — Yeah, right. Rich Birch — …ah, so you know you’ve done a very good job, you know, kind of outlining that, helping us understand understand that. But maybe on unpack maybe on the back end, how has that kind of increased focus on clarity? How has that ah kind of changed your approach, or the church’s approach, to like initiatives and doing things and various tasks—all that—how how has that impacted? And then we’ll dig into some of the how. Kasey Husen — Yeah, so I’m an enneagram three – Achiever. So accomplish thing… yes, are you with me. Rich Birch — Yes! Love it! Enneagram threes unite! Kasey Husen — Okay, all right. Rich Birch — Absolutely. Kasey Husen — I’m glad when people really embrace being an enneagram three. Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — So I’m an achiever, so accomplishing a goal or capitalizing on an opportunity is always a primary driver for me. But especially in church because what we’re doing really matters. And so lack of clarity is a major barrier for winning. Kasey Husen — And I think a lot of your listeners will resonate with this, that churches seem to naturally drift into doing a lot of things that require attention from our staff, attention from our budget, attention from the congregation, all in order to be successful. But yet I see many people are chronically disappointed with the outcome… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Kasey Husen — …of whatever we’re doing. So that is really what drives me to clarity… Rich Birch — Yeah… Kasey Husen — …is I want to make sure we win at the goals. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely drive up in outcomes and engagement. Kasey Husen — Yes. Rich Birch — Now talk to me about… so one of the things I find super frustrating is, you know, there’s a lot of churches say like a thousand, I—like I I see I feel like I run into this all the time—thousand, maybe maybe even a little bit bigger who they um, they approach communications as a discipline, in like ah in kind of ah in a nonprofessional way. Now some of that is because like the lead pastor, they’re good at communicating and so they think therefore “I should be good at communications.” And the example I use is like, listen when you first start your church, yeah maybe you did the finances or maybe you had like somebody else do like the bookkeeping. But then eventually you need to like hire accountants and like people who do all this stuff… Kasey Husen — Right. Rich Birch — …professionally, It’s the same with communications. Kasey Husen — Yes. Rich Birch — The church grows to the place where at a senior leadership level, you need someone who is carrying communications. Unpack that for me. I believe you have probably have the same kind of thought around that. Why is that important at a senior level, and how is it helping you drive kind of the kind of outcomes and engagement you’re looking for? Kasey Husen — Yeah, well, um, it’s certainly true. And I think our senior I know our senior pastor would agree ah that this is imperative. In fact I talked with him before this interview just to get his feedback on, you know… Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Kasey Husen — …how have you seen over us working together for 11 years in this capacity? Like what do you see is most helpful to you? and although being a clarity champion, especially with such a visionary leader is a very difficult tension to manage, he would tell you that he really has embraced that because he knows it’s for the best. I will give the disclaimer that I believe and you know my primary role as a clarity champion, especially on our executive team. It has to be fully embraced by the whole team… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …that we want to provide clarity to people outside of that room – may it be our staff or our congregation. Because if we can’t agree on that, then the person in this role, especially at that level will be chronically frustrated. It requires a lot of question asking. Um you know the ability to also speak up and say where there’s some incongruency. Um, you know, maybe, and I know I wrote this somewhere and in the notes later on to talk about too is um, is that we’re often in communications really well-versed we’re kind of a neutral ministry within the the ministry teams. We’re serving so many different ministries regularly that were really in touch with their needs. Rich Birch — Yeah, true. Kasey Husen — And they’re really more candid with us with their feedback on things that things that um are articulated well, or things that they’re kind of hung up on or don’t make sense. Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — So we’re often those canaries in the coal mine that will come in and say, Hey I know at this level it all seems really clear to you and it seems like everybody should just be falling in line. Um, but we often have to be the ones to say, Hey here’s where people are a little ah stuck on this. Rich Birch — Yep. Kasey Husen — We might need to help remove some barriers. And certainly I don’t think that’s the the senior leaders’ propensity. I don’t think that they’re often in those conversations just by design. Um, and they’re not going to get that kind of feedback. And they’re not going to be looking at ministry the way that a Communications Director is. So they can really be an asset beyond even just the promotional side of communications. Kasey Husen — And when I talk to a lot of executive pastors um and they ask what I do, or you know how I provide value to the executive team often I’ll hear, well we wouldn’t we don’t really devote time to talking about marketing, so I’m not sure that would work in our executive team meetings. And I’m like, wow yeah I think we need to really help people get a clear idea that yes, there’s the function of communications that often is providing you your design, and updating your website, and doing your invite cards and all of that stuff. They’re executing on branding. But the person who’s going to represent them on your executive team is really looking at achieving that level of clarity for the whole team to be able to achieve its goals. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I was in a ah—you’ll get a kick out of this—I was in a conversation recently with a senior leader. It was like, so the senior leaders there and myself and a bunch of other people. And um, they there was like they had this poster printed up with this slogan on it that I I thought was bad. Like I was like this is not good. And um and the senior leader thought this was great. Kasey Husen — Yeah. Rich Birch — They were like oh isn’t this this great. And I’m looking around and I’m like I think everybody else thinks this is bad, but they’re just not saying anything. Kasey Husen — Yes. Rich Birch — And so then I said, I was the first one to go, and this is I’m not trying to point myself out… Kasey Husen — Yeah. Rich Birch — …but this is an example of the kind of thing. Kasey Husen — Yeah. Rich Birch — I’m like I don’t think that’s very good, and like for this reason, that reason, and that reason. And then and then everybody else piled on, oh yeah, yeah; so true, so true. Kasey Husen — Yes. Rich Birch — There’s there’s something about having that role of the you know the clarity champion that that’s the kind of thing that you find yourself doing. Can you talk about some examples of how, you know, championing clarity at that level at that kind of senior executive level has made a difference in kind of some of the outcomes? Kind of connect those two together. What would be some examples of that? Kasey Husen — Yeah, definitely. Well for most churches the executive team is the one that’s making strategic decisions every week. So whether we’re preparing for a building campaign, or we’re trying to increase giving units, or getting people to Easter services, or responding to a crisis, the executive team really is like ground zero for these conversations. But what I think a lot of executive leaders forget is that um the conversations we’re having week to week and the decisions that are being made in that room, they’re going to result in the need to collaborate with other ministry leaders outside of that room. Kasey Husen — And so like I said, your Communications Director is often the canary in the coal mine – they’re going to be the ones who are going to see the different needs of ministries um, and we’re that neutral player we consider ah, we’re serving all of the different ministries. So we’re trying to we’re getting more feedback on things that don’t make sense or do make sense. Um, so having your Comms Director in that meeting is giving you an early opportunity to really talk through the barriers that we might need to address in order for people to embrace a decision. Kasey Husen — So um, you know, I think we can often experience ah that when we’re in a room like this, we talk about things for weeks at a time. We’re wrestling through these different things and we walk out and you know forget we haven’t done the whole context with these teams or with the congregation. And I see a lot of executive leaders get ah frustrated with the lack of engagement on their staff teams. Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — It can almost drift into the, you know, they’re not on board type of conversation. And we have… Rich Birch — They don’t get us. They’re not there. Kasey Husen — Exactly. Rich Birch — They don’t love Jesus. Kasey Husen — Exactly. Yes. Rich Birch — They’re they’re stiff necked sinners. Kasey Husen — Right. Exactly. Rich Birch — All that. Kasey Husen — And we have to remember that the ministry staff, you know, they are over specific goals and functions within the church… Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — …where they’re devoting their time to, you know, a specific ministry and achieving the goals we have laid out with them for that ministry. And most of them they just need a compelling why behind the new work that we’re asking them to do, or you know, whatever it is in order to fully embrace it. I don’t really ever experience anyone combative… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …about a direction that we’re going in. It’s most often the time that they just don’t have the context that we have sitting in this room for weeks really wrestling this idea to the ground. So I am often the one who’s asking a lot of these questions in these meetings on their behalf. Again because I’m very aware of the kinds of questions that they might have. Kasey Husen — So I’ll be asking these questions. My goal is to put together, you know, a document of some sort, usually just one page, whatever we’re working on to really answer those questions that people outside of that room might have. Um and oftentimes it’s ah it’s a worthy exercise for that team – the executive team. You know, like you said you might have some in there who have very different opinions about something. And I feel like I’m oftentimes, you know, tearing off a stick of dynamite and throwing it in. Um, you know that’s kind of my job is to even sometimes take a side of something just to see what kind of reaction I get to know… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …okay, we’re very committed to this, you know and not this. Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — Or to at least drive more conversation in there so we leave that room with more clarity. Rich Birch — Uh-huh. Kasey Husen — Um, you know and and the thing is is the like the XP of Discipleship really in that room should desire a level of clarity also, but their primary role in there is not to figure out how to make the messaging clear for different audiences… Rich Birch — Right, right. Kasey Husen — …so that those people can take action. So um, again having your Comms Director in that meeting early on in the conversation really gives them a chance to organize that communication. And ah to advocate for a great transfer to others, so that it results in greater engagement. If you want to… Rich Birch — Can you talk… Kasey Husen — Yeah, go ahead. Rich Birch — Oh sorry I was going to ask if you could talk through maybe an example maybe where there was a change in direction, or like something new was rolled out and, you know, take us inside that room. give me a sense of your role. You know to kind of talk that through a little bit. Kasey Husen — Yeah, so, oftentimes ah you know I alluded to before that we can really be like the air traffic controllers. Um, and so again because the church just drifts into a place where we end up doing a lot of different things, or we’re excited about a lot of different things that once, you’re Comms Director, what I typically will provide in terms of value to this team, is that when we’re talking about a new initiative I can tell you what planes or messages are getting ready to take off. Rich Birch — Right, right. Kasey Husen — And I can tell you which ones are already in the air. And I can tell you which ones have landed, and even those that have crashed and burned… Rich Birch — Oh gosh. Kasey Husen — …if we just you know took took the whole illustration… Rich Birch — Yes, run it right till the end. Love it. Kasey Husen — …ah to the end. Yes, um, so so I am often you know having in those moments to say, okay, well we just rolled this out right now and we have people’s attention wrapped around this. Um, for instance, we’ve got a series coming up here pretty soon and I’m already sensing that there are quite a few people who have some different expectations and goals of our people, outcomes from this series week to week and then an overall one that will continue moving throughout the year. Um and especially if it impacts people’s finances. And you know I’m often the one who’s saying okay, let’s remember practically if we do this for seven weeks um, if we throw out that this is important each week, but then we’re also asking them to go sign up to do this over here… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …you know, what are we going to be most disappointed with when it’s not done, when it’s not when people don’t engage with that. And and we can get into more of that as a practical you know how I ask questions with our our senior pastor specifically. Um, but I also do this in um, you know a little ah lesser pressure with like roadmapping a series. Um. Rich Birch — Sure. Kasey Husen — So I I get in on the front end of this with our senior pastor, or all our teaching pastors. Ahead of a series I’m sitting down and I’m saying, okay, you guys tell us what you’re thinking about doing for this duration. Um, and then I kind of say like what are the goals? What do we hope people will do um after this series? How will it change them? Then we go week by week… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …and really talk through, Okay, what do we want them to know, feel, do (which came from Craig Groeschel), but just applying some of that even to our series… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …um, road mapping so asking a lot of those questions is just another practical way that we do that. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love the the air traffic controller example I think is a very um is a very vivid example, and I think is very applicable for sure to this. I can see how that would be of huge value for sure. Can you talk a little bit more about… so one of the pressures I think so many of our churches face is there’s this it’s kind of like where you started. There’s this notion that, you know, somebody runs a department or they’re you know they’re involved in something and they’re like if I can just get somebody on the weekend to stand up and talk about this thing. Like if… And and they there’s I know they think all they need is that. But we know that that’s actually not going to guarantee that they’re going their thing could end up crashing and burning. Kasey Husen — Right. Rich Birch — Bring us all together. Why why do you just to kind of weekend stage promotions not the answer. How does that relate with the planes flying around? You know how has that actually benefited what you’ve done at Crossroads? Kasey Husen — Yeah, so um, we have dozens of ministries in our church, and we also serve a preschool through 12th grade school that’s connected to us. So every day we’ve got planes or messages that are taking off, they’re in the sky, or they’re coming in for landing. So part of my job is to really protect the runway, and the skies from collisions or congestion. You know? So um, my executive team really empowers me in this role to really mine for clarity around the overarching winds of our church. And then to help remove barriers. For the most part they allow me to determine the best time for these planes to take off. Kasey Husen — This took a while to get to this place. So I just want anyone to know who’s listening ah might sound like we got here overnight. We didn’t. It was it was a process. But one process I would give you just practically is we do a ministry planning cycle. And it really just gives us a proactive look at the schedule ahead. So our executive team will meet in the fall, we’ll really lay out the next year’s initiatives and the sermons series… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …and then I’ll put that on a spreadsheet, a Google spreadsheet for everyone to see. But a next level thing is that I’ll also back in promotion. We know it’s going to take anywhere from four to six weeks talking about this thing… Rich Birch — Yep. Kasey Husen — …to get people to actually show up. So ah then I pass that off to the ministries and they’re really able to map out their 3 to 5 goals for the next six months and work ah with aligning with our overarching goals. So we then we built this culture where ministries understand that they can’t rely on the weekend stage to make their event successful. Um, because there’s limited space to promote things… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …once we focus on all of those big rocks that we… Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — …you know, tackled in the executive meeting and backed in that promotion. So ministries need to detail how they plan to do the work of engaging people around their event or initiative without the support of the weekend stage. Rich Birch — Yep. Kasey Husen — So if we’re able to emphasize their event at a time where it’s got a practical application from the message that week, or one of our strategic pushes, then that really is seen as a bonus to them. Again to go a long time to get here. And we could not have done that unless we we embrace this as a culture as an executive team. Because all of our executive leaders are really championing this within the ministries that they oversee. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. You know and continuing to move, I found in the past, moving departments to hey here’s a whole bunch of other ways that you can communicate what you you want to do, and and and don’t be and we can help you with that. We’ll we’ll help you figure through all the different tools that you could use, all the different approaches. And and frankly, a lot of it is like talking with your own people. Like it’s… Kasey Husen — Yeah. Rich Birch — …like it’s actually let’s actually you have a defined you know constituency; let’s get in front of them in the channels that make sense to get in front of them… Kasey Husen — Yeah. Rich Birch — …instead of just relying on being in front of everyone else. Kasey Husen — And I find that that when they have that responsibility in order to put on this event, they actually start to ask questions like: is this really what our people need right now? Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — And because they’re having to go to those people on their own and they’re not relying on a huge marketing arm of the church to do that for them. Sometimes these ideas get squashed on their own because they say well, yeah, actually we’re not sure… Rich Birch — Yeah. Kasey Husen — …you know, given all the work it’s going to take that we want to proceed forward with that. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kasey Husen — We’re not going to get the outcome. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s great. Um, so a little bit in a different direction around the same, you know, the same topic, a lot of what you do is lead up. A lot of what you do is lead and influence the you know your senior leader, but the you know other executives. Um when you think about that aspect of your role, do you have any advice? You know because I’m sure there’s communications people that are listening that are like oh my goodness, I would love to work there. It sounds like they actually appreciate the role of communications. And they’re they’re trying to think about man, how do I how do I influence the organization? Any advice for folks that would be listening in with that mindset? Kasey Husen — Yeah, and like I said earlier it can really be um, it can kind of be an exhausting seat to sit in sometimes. Especially because um, I understand, you know, and it’s the same way here. Visionary leaders often they have more room for ambiguity than people sitting in this seat. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Kasey Husen — And so, you know, it’s a tension to manage. Eleven years in I would say we haven’t solved that problem. Um, it’s just again I go back to it’s been eleven years getting to know my senior pastor… Rich Birch — Yep. Kasey Husen — …and how he prefers to do things, and where we’re going. And often that’s led to me having conversations ah with him, you know, throughout the year. He’s in enneagram seven so he loves doing five exciting things at once. And he really believes that it will all work out. And but he would also tell you as a 7 he has to work really hard ah to fight off the tendency to avoid pain. So in situations where he wants to people to focus on five things, it’s kind of painful to have to tell a ministry we’re not going to do all of those things. Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — And so I kind of lead up by asking questions like um, okay if we share these 5 things in the Sunday service, come Monday morning which of the 5 things will you be most eager to see results for? Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Kasey Husen — And if you can’t answer that one, you know, usually there’s one that’s like I want to see people do this. Then that’s the most important thing. If you need more questions: which one of these will be the most painful for you if we don’t see engagement around it? Whatever the answer is to that, that’s the most important thing. And then I’m usually able to activate around building messaging for that or even fighting to push off other things to a time where the main thing isn’t going to suffer. But also just you know stepping into ah wanting to remove barriers. And when I notice we’re not on the same page about something, um, it’s important for us as Comm Directors even though in our fight for clarity um that we can often be coming in with feedback, we’re wanting to show honor to our senior leader. But also we’re representing about we’re representing what’s not clear about his vision or his communication and that can often feel like you’re calling his baby ugly. Rich Birch — Sure. Kasey Husen — So um, you know someone in this role I think really needs to earn that trust. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kasey Husen — Um, and to to discern like is this a point where I need to have a conversation because my leader is at risk. Rich Birch — Right. Kasey Husen — And, you know, and and I would say if you know that then yeah, that’s a primary function of this role to step into those hard things for the purpose of keeping us on track toward the goal. But I would build that relationship and that trust and there might need to be some calibration throughout the year because it’s such a tension to manage just to continue reiterating: I am on your side, and I’m for you, and I’m in the support of whatever you feel like God is calling this church to do. And so although I’ll come in with some critical feedback here and there I have an opinion about how something might be done best um, you know at the end of the day it’s your call. But I feel like I wouldn’t be doing a service to you if I didn’t share, you know, what what might be a barrier to our success. So we’ve really worked that tension and we’ve established established a lot of trust over the years and I would say if there’s someone in this role, that’s something to focus on. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I think that’s that’s such a lot of wisdom in that answer around, you know, the relationship side of it, and building trust, and there’s you know there’s wisdom there around, Okay, you know, not every hill is a hill we can die on and um, how do we find, you know… Kasey Husen — Yeah. Yes, and I like to die on every hill, Rich. I really do. Rich Birch — Love it. That’s this is been for good… Kasey Husen — Eleven years in and I’m still pumped to die on all the hills… Rich Birch — Yes. Kasey Husen — …but I have to really really and make sure that I’m being wise about that. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. As we come to close up today’s conversation, Kasey, anything else, you’d like to share? Anything else, you’d like to say to to help her guests as we close out today? Kasey Husen — I would just say um, you know, in our pursuit of clarity and really hitting our overarching goals, helping our teams do that, there are some really awesome ways that we can pair um ministry opportunities with major initiatives or um, ah messages each week. And I’ll just give one example of that. You know for years we had teams coming to us saying, can you announce our ministry because we need more volunteers for this, you know? And just mentioning that was never really effective and it really just came across needy. Um, so now what we do is every year one of our pastors is preaching on gifts. Um, or they’re preaching on the importance of serving. And so we have now paired the pitch for people to get involved with ministry um, with that service every year, and it’s called Draft Day. Kasey Husen — So all the ministries are out on the patio doing that. And we have seen the biggest results from pairing messages with opportunities in ministry because you’re getting multiple impressions and actually moving the hearts of people in multiple ways throughout the service to action, once again. Kasey Husen — So um, there are some great ways, I’m happy if someone wanted to email me I could download them on a couple different ways we do some of the major things in churches… Rich Birch — Love it. Kasey Husen — …to get people engaged but um, but that’s one thing that I I hope people have have some energy to explore. Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Well if people want to get in touch with you, or track with the church where do we want to send them online? Kasey Husen — Yeah, you’re welcome to email me I’m Kasey, kasey@crossroadschurch.com and I’m also on Instagram – kaseyhusen. Rich Birch — Love it. Thank you so much, Kasey. I really appreciate you being here today, cheering for you guys. Love what Crossroads is up to and I really appreciate your generosity and being here today. Thank you so much. Kasey Husen — Thanks for having me, Rich.

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George this week, the lead pastor of Real Life Church in Southern California. In addition to being a pastor, Rusty is a speaker, teacher and author focused on making real-life simple. As leaders, we all face difficult times and crises that challenge our faith and our ability to lead. Don’t miss this important conversation where Rusty shares his experiences and offers valuable lessons for how church leaders can prepare to deal with a crisis before it hits. Crises will come. // The last few years have taught us that crises will come whether our church is ready for them or not. Particularly as a church grows, it will face more complex issues ranging from moral failures and suicide on your staff, to school shootings in the community, or even discord among team members. In addition your church may experience backlash from the larger community when crises hit. Admit that yes, you are broken and you don’t have it all together. Use the issues your staff is facing to reach out to people in the community experiencing the same hardships. Care for your staff. // When crises hit, often the executive pastor is the first person who deals with the issue because he is trying to protect both the staff and the lead pastor. Remember that this work takes a toll on your staff and can lead to burnout. After dealing with the immediate needs, make sure to provide your staff with rest and the help they need. Managing a crisis. // How do we manage a crisis when we’re in the middle of it? Think about the impact as a series of concentric circles. First evaluate who is the closest to the blast zone in this crisis. What do they need first and how can you help them? Then think about your staff and how to communicate what’s happening and how much to share. Next ask yourself what the church needs to know, and finally what the community needs to know. Lastly, circle back to the impact in your own life after dealing with the immediate crisis. Take time to process your grief and pursue healing with a therapist. Plan ahead for crises. // Have the conversation with your elders and church leadership about what you’ll do in the face of crisis before it happens. Having a policy ahead of time prevents people from debating the consequences because everyone will know the plan to work through in that moment. Balance grace and truth. // To deal with situations before they become crises, pastors need to create a culture of honesty where staff can come forward if they need help. Talk about your own therapy, sin issues, and problems. Practice what you preach when it comes to seeking help through counseling. But also be intentional about having hard conversations with your staff. Look for red flags. // When it comes to protecting your staff against moral failure, there are safeguards you can put in place but ultimately people are going to make their own decisions. Look for red flags with your staff members – for example, do they have any friends on staff or within the church? Do they have any hobbies? If ministry is their only world they can get burned out quickly and make bad decisions. Getting help with Rusty’s course. // In Rusty’s course, Leading Through Crisis, he takes an honest look at the crises Real Life Church faced, what they did right, what they did wrong, and what they would do differently if they had to do it again. A must-have for church leaders, the course walks leaders through crises such as dealing with issues on staff, moral failures, suicide, school shootings, grief in the community, handling the press, and more. To get 50% off Rusty’s course, Leading Through Crisis, use the code unseminary during checkout through April 30, 2023. Learn more about Real Life Church at reallifechurch.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Chemistry Staffing One of the things that they never teach you in seminary is when to move on from your current church. Over the last couple of years, we have been having a TON of conversations about this with pastors all over the United States. Of all the ministry decisions you make, leaving your position will be the toughest. Download this two-in-one resource that walks you through the decision-making process. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited for today’s interview. We have a repeat guest and friends, you know, we don’t do a lot of repeat guests here at unSeminary. But, uh, this guest is one of those people I said, listen, anytime you want to come on, you let me know cause I would love to have you on. So we’ve got Rusty George – he is the lead pastor of Real Life Church, multisite church in Southern California. He is a global speaker, a leader, and teacher focusing on making real life simple. He’s a author of, uh, several books, he has a weekly podcast called Leading Simple with Rusty George. So I knew he is, his sound would at least be great. I know that. And he’s just recently actually released a, an online course, which is a part of why I wanted to have him on to really wrestle this through. Uh, but Rusty, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Rusty George — Boy, it’s an honor to be back. Thank you so much. I’m a a big fan of the show and uh, it’s great to be on again. Rich Birch — No, it’s so great to, to connect. Why don’t you fill out the picture there a little bit. What did I miss? What was, uh, you know what, yeah, what didn’t I talk about? How, fill out the picture a little bit. Rusty George — Yeah. So I, I did not grow up in California. Everybody wants to know if that’s where I’m from, but I’m not. Uh, California was always a place you’d visit, not a place you’d live, from where I’ve come from. Rich Birch — Sure. Rusty George — Uh, so I’m from Kansas and grew up there and, uh, worked in Kentucky for a few years. That’s where a little bit of my accent comes from, as the people out here to like, to tell me. Moved out to California, took over a church, uh, that Kyle Idleman started, uh, and did just an incredible job, and felt like he did what he was called to do, and he left. I came out and it was almost three years old, meeting in a movie theater, and had great momentum already. And, uh, we were just, were able to, to have some really fun years of life in movie theaters, and then high schools, and building a building and moving in. Rusty George — And I remember having a conversation with a guy who’s a, uh, seasoned veteran as a pastor, probably been leading for 40 years at the time. And I was all excited cuz we just moved in a new building. And so, you know, everything was up and to the right, and everybody was happy and… Rich Birch — Sure. Rusty George — Uh, it was great. And he looked at me and he said, man, you’re gonna see some things. And I said, what do you mean? He said, anytime you take a beachhead against the enemy, the enemy notices. Rich Birch — Right, right. Rusty George — And you, you just need to prepare yourself. You’re gonna see some things. And over the next 10 years we did. We just saw our share of, of wins, of highs, but also deep lows. And, uh, seminary did not prepare me for that. Rich Birch — No, no. Rusty George — That’s why I love your podcast. Um, but it, it left me, you know, kind of wrestling with, you know, my own calling. You know, you ask a lot of deep questions like, is this my fault? Um, you always second guess yourself – should I have done something differently? And you just learn a lot through that. So we had a, a lot of difficult times, a lot of great times too, but it’s been 20 years now at the church and, uh, we still believe our best days are ahead. Rich Birch — I love it. I, I’d love to actually talk a little bit more about that and get, dig in a little bit, if that’s okay, around some of that, you know, that more negative stuff. I think this is one of those things we often, you know, we love to celebrate when things go well. We love to look at a, you know, a church like Real Life, which is, you know, has had huge impact, continues to have huge impact. Uh, but there’s the, you know, there’s the, you pull up the rock and look underneath and there’s like, Ooh, there’s some stuff under there that’s not so pretty. Fill out that picture a little bit. Talk us through those things. Rusty George —Yeah. I remember in my early days of ministry, I love to quiz pastors about, hey, tell me how’d you grow? You know, h how’d you win? How’d you succeed? And we all look for those stories, right, cuz we think there’s some kind of silver bullet out there that’s gonna make everything great. But now that I’m older, I like to ask guys, tell me how you failed, uh, how I can learn from that. And so, I’m pretty open about sharing anything that we’ve done wrong, or we’ve experienced that was difficult. Rusty George — Um, I, I think, you know, we had a variety of things happen. We had, uh, a couple of moral failures that happened on staff that had never happened up until that point. We prided ourself on this will never happen here. Uh, we’re such a spiritual group of people and, uh, you know, we love the Lord. But the reality is no matter how many, uh, things you put in the staff handbook, how many Billy Graham rules you have, it only works for people that really wanna stay faithful in their marriages. So people would put themselves in compromising positions and they’d make bad decisions. Uh, and unfortunately in a couple of those situations that ended in two separate suicides that we had to walk through as a church. And so, uh, that brought with it a lot of negative press about our church, and what’s really going on there. And I told you they weren’t really teaching the Bible. They’re not very spiritual. You know, so you have internal discord, you have, you have grief on staff, and then you have, uh, you know, these, this, uh, uh, the, the communities lashing out at you as to, I thought you guys had it all together. Rusty George — And so it became a great opportunity for us to talk about, no, we do not have it all together. Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — And we are broken people and we’re all trying to figure this out. And so let’s lean into the mental health side of things and see if we can help people who are struggling with suicide ideation. And, and we were able to do that. We’ve had, um, some staff drama of, uh, you know, a couple of staff members get arrested for various things. Rich Birch — Oh my goodness. Rusty George — Whether it’s, uh, you know, somebody, uh… and, and this is the thing about growing churches is when you go after reaching unchurched people and you start to reach them… Rich Birch — Yes. Rusty George — …then you want to hire them. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Rusty George — And oftentimes they’re, they’re past, even though it’s forgiven by God, it’s not over with in, uh, you know, our day and age and it catches up to them. Uh, and that’s such a unique dynamic… Rich Birch — Yes. Rusty George — …when people from your church come on staff and, you know, you’ve seen this, and suddenly your, your, your boss is, or your pastor is now your boss. Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — Suddenly your place of worship is your place of work, it just gets weird and whatever’s in you comes out of you, it kind of squeezes out. And and we just saw that, that some of that just happened. And we had to kind of pick up the pieces of that. Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — Uh, we had rapid growth and thus, um, a a lot of, we had to hire a lot of new staff, and there became kind of this civil war on staff between the people that were there before the building and the people after the building. Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — And how do you bridge that gap? And so those are just a few of the low lights… Rich Birch — Amazing. Rusty George — …so to speak, and, uh, you know, things we had to deal with. Rich Birch — Well, it is interesting, you know, one of the in other contexts I’ve talked about a similar dynamic where as the church grows, at the senior level, it’s not like you deal with less people issues. It’s, you have just as many people issues. But, and, and like pastoral crisis kind of situations in people’s lives. But what ends up, at least my experience of it has been, as the church grows, you end up obviously building systems and have people that handle, you know, the normal stuff, that handle kind of normal crisis in people’s lives. But then the most complex stuff still continues to bubble up to, you know, the senior leaders in, in the church. And you don’t ever get away, at least my experience is you just never get away from that. That is, that’s a normal piece of the puzzle. Rusty George — That you’re exactly right. I remember hearing from a seasoned pastor, a guy by the name of Bob Russell tell me, hey, everything at our church was amazing. And I would say, I think he said, 80% of everything at Southeast was incredible. And 15% was bad, and 5% was awful. And he said… Rich Birch — Yes. Rusty George — What do you think I spent most of my time thinking about? Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — And I said… Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — The 5%. It’s kind of like, uh, I think it was President Obama said, when stuff lands on your desk, you realize nobody else could handle it. Rich Birch — Right, Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Rusty George — So… Rich Birch — It’s true. Rusty George — …when it gets to the senior pastor’s desk, you’re like, oh my goodness. And, and really it’s the executive pastor that gets it first. And, you know, we had a great XP through all of that, that, that shouldered a lot of that. Um, and then, you know, he would call me in when, when only I needed to deal with it or needed to know. But what I failed to recognize was even though I was dealing with my own kind of internal pain and crisis and all that, he was dealing with even more. Because he was carrying weight of protecting me, but also protecting the staff. And that eventually led the burnout for him. And we got him help, and he’s fine now. But you have to remember that, that your staff takes, uh, it takes a toll on them as well. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love, um, one of the things you say in your, in your online course, I probably don’t love this, that’s the wrong way to say it, but I, it resonates to be true in my life. You’re either, uh, in a crisis or heading towards one. And, and I think post-pandemic, this has become true for all of us. Like we, we can see this, right? Like we were, it was not that long ago, uh, that, you know, we had the Silicon Valley Bank, you know, you know, failure. And it was fascinating. That was an interesting little crisis that was an external, not a little crisis, a crisis that was external. Uh, I remember reading about this thinking, oh, that’s kind of interesting. And then literally within about 48 hours, I heard of multiple people who are pretty close to me, who that was having an impact on them. Rich Birch — It wasn’t like, it wasn’t just like this, like theoretical something you read in the paper. It’s like, that thing rippled out. And it was like, well, uh, all of our, you know, you know, I knew this one church where their, like, their payroll company had their money in SVP was, and so they were using them as the clearing. And like, you know, it’s, it’s interesting how these crisis, they come, you know, to us. And we’ve all seen this for sure, you know, post pandemic. Rich Birch — But let’s talk about that around how do, how do we manage it as, you know, as ourselves? What would be some of the, how, how do we as the leader in the midst of all this… um, you know, it’s kind of like doing your kids’ diapers. I remember people would say like, oh, it’s different when it’s your kids. And I was like, no, it’s not any different. They’re just, no one else is going to do it. Like no one, no one else is gonna change their diapers, so you have to change them. The same is, there’s some similar dynamics with crisis. Like, it’s not that it’s… you’re the person that happens to be the executive pastor, the lead pastor, and so it’s your job. How do I manage the crisis uh, if I’m in the middle of it, how do I manage the impact on myself? Rusty George — Yeah. And this is one of the things we cover in the course is you have to think about it from a variety of concentric circles. The first one is, who’s the closest to the blast zone? Like in the case of, of, of a suicide, it was a family involved in that. Uh, this one individual had taken his life and now, you know, his wife had found him. His kids are coming home from school in a few hours. Rich Birch — Oh my goodness. Rusty George — We’re over there on site trying to help out, okay, what does this family need first? Okay. So that’s the, that’s the biggest thing. How can we help them? But then there’s a second tier of, okay, what about our staff? Because they’re gonna need to know about this. And so how do we assemble, uh, the staff together, uh, without just, you know, sending out a text to everybody… Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — …but get ’em in a room and how do we, you know, and, and then there’s that delicate balance of what’s our story to tell? What do we tell, what do we not tell? Because the wife has what’s, you know, what she needs to say. And, and all of that. Everything in me wanted to, to deal with the neighbors who were calling and the people that were coming outta their houses. And, you know, but they, they weren’t on my radar just yet. So then it goes from staff into the church. What does the church need to know? And then from the church out to the community, what does the community need to know? And there’s different checkpoints along the way. Rusty George — And I, I think, uh, you know, for myself and for our executive pastor, we just decided, okay, we are locked in on these concentric circles. And we’ll just put kind of a date on the calendar about three weeks out when we’ll get back to our grief. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll give you an example. We had another crisis we went through, we had a school shooting in our community, which, uh, took the life of one of the kids from our church, um, and, and injured another. And so it, it was a huge issue, obviously, in our community, but it really devastated our church. And, and truthfully for me, I happened to be in the hospital room when they broke the news to the mom that her daughter had died. And I, I, I will never forget that sound. And, but I had to put a pin in it. I had to kind of put it aside and say, I’ll deal with this in about three weeks. Rusty George — And this is something we talk about in the video as well, and I got this from some other high level leader. He said, the, the life cycle of a crisis in a church for people of the church or the community is only two weeks. Because they’re so selfish, they gotta get back to their own crisis. Rich Birch — Okay. Okay. Rusty George — Which… Rich Birch — There’s probably some truth to that. Rusty George — …there’s a lot of truth to that. And we would often… Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — …joke about long before these horrible crises that put, you know, put a, a mark on the calendar, two weeks from now, this will no longer be that big of an issue, because there’s other stuff that comes up. And to be able to say, I’m in full crisis management mode now, but in two weeks I gotta deal with this myself. Which I went to grief counseling over it, went to, you know, know kind of the PTSD stuff. What did that do to me and my psyche? And how do I heal up from this? Taking some time off for some of your senior staff leaders that were kind of in on this, that helped us kind of process, all right, where’s our energy gonna go? Because you only get so much, you only get so many hours of the day. How are we gonna work these concentric circles to benefit as many people as possible? Rich Birch — Okay. I, yeah, I love that. Uh, I think that’s really good. You know, even as we’re thinking about our people, like, hey, we, let’s put a pin in it and then let’s loop back on this two, three weeks from now. We need to deal with this situation, what’s immediately here, and then let’s come back to it. Rich Birch — Can we talk about moral failures? You mentioned this… Rusty George — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and, you know, you had this un unfortunately, this is one of those things that has gone through so many of our churches, and we’ve, you know, we’ve, we’ve dealt with this in so many ways. One of the, one of my concerns, I would say, uh, having watched this in, even some of the churches I’ve worked with, it’s, you know, it has racked the, the church is, you know, there’s this spectrum here where leaders make, um, you know, you start with like, maybe silly decisions, and then it’s like unwise, and then foolish. And then eventually you trip over the line of sin. Like, it goes from being like, okay, these were, this was a stupid idea. Like, I shouldn’t have, I shouldn’t have texted her that extra time, or I shouldn’t have, you know, I said, I was like a weird joke. And then eventually you step over the line to sin, and then on the other end of the spectrum, it’s like evil. Like you do terrible, terrible things, you know, to you now avoid, you know, you’re layering sin upon sin to try to avoid detection and all that. Rich Birch — One of the things that I’ve found interesting is as moral failure comes out—and there is a question here, it’s not me just making statements—as moral failure comes out, there’s so much cancel culture that goes on now. Right? There’s so much like, we’re gonna flush these people out. And I, I think responsibility is important. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t, people shouldn’t take responsibility. I have a high value on that as a person that’s in the church. But my, I think what happens every time that happens when we, we kind of, these people get flushed away is people who have made silly, unwise, foolish decisions, it gets stuffed down deep. They’re like, I’m not talking to anybody about this. I’m not, I am not. And, and then ironically, it actually, I think can propagate even more. Rich Birch — So, talk me through moral failure. What should we be thinking about as maybe something’s on our doorstep? There is actually, you know, a a a leader’s come to you and said, I listen, I stepped on somewhere I shouldn’t have. Um, or it’s maybe even, you know, you just sense like there’s something awry with a team member, that kind of thing. Uh, talk us through some of your experience on that front. Rusty George — Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. And you know, as one of my counselors told me after our, our second suicide from an individual—it was one of our campus pastors—we, we uncovered, uh, a bunch of stuff that we did not know about. Anyway, my counselor says to me, you can influence the heart of man, but you cannot control it. At some point, they’re gonna do what they wanna do. And I remember in a couple, couple of these instances that we began to notice some strange kind of interaction between two people on staff. We immediately removed them from working with each other. Um, we, we, uh, we sat down with one individual and it was a bit of an intervention. He asked us for help. We granted help, we provided counseling. We separated that job out. Nothing had had come up that was fireable yet. Rusty George — So you don’t wanna just start, you know, uh, firing at everybody, because sometimes they’re, they didn’t even know that they were being, you know, groomed or whatever. So you begin to, to try to, to mitigate that a little bit. Anyway, but at the end of the day, they, they make the decisions they make. And so I think the next question becomes then how much do you share? Because everybody in your church wants to know every bit of the details, because we do live in a culture where it’s, it’s all accessible. Right? And so I, I think in the situation of, of one of those suicides, what we unearthed later, I did not know ahead of time. And I became accused of you’re hiding stuff. I didn’t hide anything. I didn’t know anything. Rich Birch — Mm-hmm. Rusty George — And so, but it, you know, I think from stage, instead of coming out and airing all the dirty laundry, because there’s families involved, there’s kids involved. There’s, you know, uh, people watching from their hometown, you know, during this time. You have to kind of say, listen, we don’t know all the facts. We’re learning as we go. Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — But here’s what we do know. And you just need to know I’m not gonna tell you everything, but I’m gonna tell you what you need to know. And you need to know that we’re gonna do this with integrity, and we’re gonna find out what we need to find out, and we’re gonna help the people involved. Larry Osborne gave me some great advice many years ago. He said, have the conversation now with your eldership. What are we gonna do in the moment of a moral failure? Because it’s gonna happen. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Rusty George — And if you have the conversation before it happens, then you don’t have people picking sides. Cuz what will happen is… Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — …half of your people want grace. The other half want justice. So go ahead and come up with a plan: this is what we’re gonna do. Another thing we offer on the course, so you can look through, all right, in this moment, this person gets counseling, this person gets to stay, this person loses their job. Uh, all those kind of things. But at the end of the day, you can only do as much as you can do because they make their own decisions. Rich Birch — Yeah. Talk us through that a little bit. Cuz I do feel like that to me is like at the nub of the issue, which is like how… I, I guess I assumed when I started in ministry, I, early on, I, I was coached by some great leaders who said, listen, once you decide to be in ministry, your private life is a public consequence that, you know, you, you pick to do this. And so if, uh, you know, what you do with your private time is actually, uh, is relevant to your ministry. And so how do we, and I get that, that’s like… Rusty George — Sure. Rich Birch — …I think an interesting principle for me to live by, but I also understand on the other side, we want to guard people. And we want to provide a certain amount, and we’re trying to balance off that grace and truth. Uh, help me kind of divide out the lines there for me a little bit. Help me understand that. Rusty George — Well, if I had a good answer for that, I’d market that. I, I , I think that it’s different for everybody. It’s a bell shaped curve. You have people on each end… Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — …that want to know nothing. And those that want to know everything and somewhere in the middle is a, a healthy balance. Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — You know, I think I, I would start with your, you know, telling your staff, let’s, let’s watch what we post on social media. Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — I’m glad that you’re out with your friends and having a good time, but it may not need to be a picture of all of you holding beer bottles, just because we have so many people recovering in our church. Rich Birch — Yes. Rusty George — I don’t care if you drink. That that’s, you know, that’s every church makes their own decision on that. But let’s, let’s keep in mind what the, uh, the larger scope actually sees. And let’s just, let’s just have a, a core value of we’re going to be honest about things. And this is so much better now than it was 30 years ago. Rich Birch — Yes. Rich Birch — Because pastors are so more likely to talk about their own therapy, their own sin issues, their own problems. And so now it becomes a, I think I can lean in, I think I can trust, um, I, I think in these situations, uh, people, they don’t need to know you’re perfect. They, they like to know you’re real. They just know that they, they wanna know that you’re acknowledging your stuff and moving ahead. So I think in these situations, you know, with your staff and, and with your church, you’re constantly educating them that, no, we’re not perfect. We don’t have it all together. Um, we’re learning as we go. Uh, little things like I always tell, you know, lead pastors: don’t tell people to be in a small group if you’re not in one. And don’t lead it… Rich Birch — Right, right. Rusty George — …you know, be in one; be subject to one. Rich Birch — Right, right. Rusty George — Uh, don’t tell people to go to counseling if you don’t go… Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — …because you need someone to talk to and, you know, and, and talk about that from time to time. So it’s just modeling it, I think goes a long ways. And that prepares you for when there might be a problem to say, uh, yeah, we had a, we had an incident, and this is what we’re doing. Now, granted, there are gonna be people that say, I can’t believe you fired him for that offense. Rich Birch — Right, right. Rusty George — But… Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — …that’s church policy. That’s just what we do. Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — Uh, in that particular case, now you need to know we’re taking care of them and we’re, we’re helping the family along the way. Uh, and I’ll, I’ll be with them through that process. But that’s like the complicated thing of being a pastor. You wear so many hats. Rich Birch — Yes. Rusty George — Sometimes you’re CEO, sometimes your pastor, sometimes your therapist. Rich Birch — Yep. Rusty George —Uh, but it just, it’s different every time. Rich Birch — Yeah. And I, I love that advice. I think that’s so, so smart around like, hey, we need to have, it’s like we have the co have to con we have to have the conversation before we have to have the conversation. Like, let’s define a bit of what the boundaries are here. Let’s talk that through and agree on that before we get to the point where, like, where is that crisis manual again? Can I pull that off the shelf? Like, now is the time to talk about that. I think that’s so good. I remember years ago there was a, there was a, um, two people on our staff who, um, you know, we were way at this retreat and it was like, um, I just was like, okay, they’re, you’re a little too cozy. Rich Birch — Yep. Rusty George — You’re just a little too cozy. And so these were both people that I deeply respected, people that worked for me. Rich Birch — And, um, you know, on Monday I pulled him into my office and I said, hey guys, like I, I, I’m not accusing you of anything, but I just want to tell you the things I saw. And here are the three or four different things that I saw that were, that, that just rang bells inside of me. Like I, I don’t know that you are being, the language I use was, I don’t know that you are sending the message necessarily that, that you want to send. Um, and again, I’m not accusing you of anything, but this is where that’s at. That took, man, I was like, and I was deep into my career when I did that. This was not like first five years thing. It was years in. It was a, that was a hard conversation. But, you know, it was interesting. Like, I, um, the one person was super pissed, like, I can’t believe, like you’re, you know, you’re accusing me of everything. Rusty George — Yeah. Rich Birch — And I’m like, no, I’m not, I’m not accusing you of anything. This is, I’m telling you what I saw. And the other person was really quiet and then looped back around a couple days later and said, you know, Rich, I really appreciate you flagging that. I said, you know, you read it exactly right. I, you know, things were, not, nothing has happened, but like I, this was a sobering moment for me. And I appreciated that. Rusty George — Right. Rich Birch — I was like, oh, good. Like that’s, you know, hey, you know, that’s heading in the right direction. Um, but having those hard conversations are really, really tough. I think the moral issue thing is so hard. Rusty George — What a valuable thing for them to be able to do that. Because first of all, you’re safeguarding the church. We have to always think about that. Rich Birch — Yes. Rusty George — But, but you’re also maybe preventing them from going down a road that they think, oh, I’ve gone down too far now and now I’m stuck. A couple of indicators I look for in people now. Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — I mean, obviously those situations are red flags, but there’s a couple of others that I’ve just noticed. One is, does, do they have any other friends? Um, you know, I I, I often think about the people we let go on staff are often the people that didn’t fit, and they don’t have any other friends on staff, or maybe they don’t even have any other friends in the church of the same sex – that they’re, you know, they, they just have a, a buddy relationship with somebody in their life that can call ’em on something. Rusty George — And the second one is, do they have any hobbies? I know that sounds like an outlier, but you know, if ministries are only a world, they’re gonna get burned out really quick. And then they start making stupid decisions. And, uh, we, we all know from the host of podcasts that are out there chronicling the failures of people in ministry that, um, you know, it often is a result of a lack of friendship and a lack of hobbies. There’s no… Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — …there’s no value to life other than their work. And then they end up resenting their work along the way. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good. I remember years ago, similarly another kind of flag that I’ve, that has stuck with me. I was talking with, uh, an individual who coaches a lot of people or councils, really a lot of people who have been through this kind of, um, you know, this kind of experience, a moral fail failure. And I said, well, what, what are your things that, you know, what’s your coaching to us as leaders? What’s the kind of thing we should be looking for without, you know, looking for evil around every corner? Like, let’s not get paranoid about it. And they said, you know, it’s interesting if you just listen to enough stories, you hear a lot of these relationships, if they go sideways with some sort of moral failure, it happens at conferences, away at a camp, away at like, there’s some sort of, like, we’re, and so they were like, listen, just be aware on those kinds of things. Just be, which is interesting cuz that aligned with my other, that my other kind of own personal experience where I was like, okay, that is interesting. Right? And they’re like, it’s just, that’s just how life works. I thought that’s kind of interesting. Rusty George — It’s true. Rich Birch — Well this is just one of the kinds of, uh, you know, potential crisis fun thing that churches get to, you know, to deal with. There’s a a lot in this course that I, I really do think… I listen friends, I think this is one of those courses that you should be taking. Um, it should be the kind of thing that you are, you know, you’re, at least from my perspective, you shouldn’t wait till you’re in a crisis to go through this kind of thing. This is kind of good, you know, let’s get ahead with our senior leaders. There’s lots of stuff listed in here. So you talk about dealing with suicide, you talked about moral failure. Um, you talked about, um, you know, this, the tragedy of dealing with the school shooting, which unfortunately, like, it’s just sad that that has to be in a course, like, but it’s it’s unfortunately way too common as you know, it should be. There’s this whole I issue of what do we deal with, you know, the press in these scenarios. Man, there’s a lot in this course. Talk to me a little bit about why you put this course together. Rusty George — Well, I just saw that, man, we had lived through so much, and a lot of people were asking us about it. I had people will call up and say, hey, what, we’ve got this suicide. What, what do we do with? Or we’ve got, uh, a school shooting, or… I remember after our school shooting, uh, one of the ministers from Sandy Hook called me and said, how you doing? And man, that meant so much to me. Because he’d been through it. Um, and, you know, we were able to reach out to Nashville just, uh, uh, not long ago after their school shooting and, and provide some assistance. So just, I, I think it, it provides some, some healing when you get to share your pain. So we deal with that. Uh, we deal with what do you do when people are leaving your church and it just wrecks your, your soul, which we’ve all been through that. Uh being out here in California, you know, with the death of Kobe Bryant, even though he did not attend our church, uh, the loss of Kobe in the LA area was a huge thing. And he’s, you know, what do you do when somebody dies that’s not always that honorable, but yet your people want you to honor them. Uh you know, how, how do you walk through that? Um, and just staff stuff. I mean, everybody deals with just crazy staff stuff. If you’ve got a staff of two or 200… Rich Birch — Right. Rusty George — …uh, people, people bring themselves to the workplace. So how do you manage that? And we deal a lot with internal stuff too, in the counseling that we dealt with. Rich Birch — Hmm. Yeah. It’s fascinating. Well, if people want to get this course, where do we want to send them online uh, you know, to pick this up? Rusty George — Yeah. They can just go to my website, pastorrustygeorge.com and for your listeners, Rich… Rich Birch — Yeah. Rusty George — …if they use the code word unseminary… Rich Birch — Love it! Rusty George — …they get 50% off. So… Rich Birch — What!? That’s amazing! Rusty George — 50%, baby. That’s right. So, uh… Rich Birch — That’s incredible. Rusty George — …just for you. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Thank you so much for that. What a gift. Rusty George — Absolutely. Yeah. And we’re having people buy it not just for themselves, but they watch it with, with their teams or, they’ll gift it to another pastor, which you can do that as well and say, hey, I, I just wanna make sure that you’re taken care of should you go through something like this. Or maybe they are going through something like this. Rich Birch — Well it’s interesting you say that, cuz actually, as we were talking about this, I was like, man, if I was in a denomination, if I was a part of a network, if I was, uh, you know, if I was in, if I had some leadership responsibility over a number of churches, I would gift this to all those people. I’d use that code and gift it to all of those people and say, hey, here is a great training resource that you can use. Um, you know, it is, uh, it’s super helpful; I’ve had a chance to look through it – it’s super helpful. Um, and, and, you know, put together in a winsome manner that’s not all like paranoid, paranoid, paranoid. It’s like actually helpful. It’s not, it’s, this isn’t hype; it’s help. Um, it’s not fear driven, it’s faith driven. You know, it’s, it’s, uh, but full of lots of helpful resources. So I would highly recommend that people do that. Drop by pastorrustygeorge.com, use that code, which is super gracious of you to, you know, to pick that up. Have you heard any, you know, kind of response back from church leaders as they’ve started using it? Anything that’s kind of stuck, stuck out to them or anything that, you know, has kind of, has kind of resonated as they’ve, as they’ve been going through it? Rusty George — Yeah, I mean, obviously you hear from some people that say, oh yeah, that’s great. I’ll keep that as a bookmark for when I go through crisis. Uh, but then the people that watch it say, oh, I’m so glad I saw that because now I see a few things that are coming, uh, that I can hopefully prevent or avoid. And, and we deal with the things that we did right. And the things we wish we would’ve done differently, uh, to be able to, to help some people, uh, navigate some of those pitfalls that we didn’t see coming. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. And, you know, and there are in exa these kinds of situations, when they come up with our church, they demand a ton of us. Uh, so taking time now ahead of time to actually dig into them and think about them, man, it’s, that’s the way you want to do that. Even just that one little bit. The one piece around moral failure, Hey, let’s talk about this with our team before we get there. All of these things and a similar kind of category. I was in, uh, an organization where it wasn’t a church, but where we ran into a crisis situation where we literally had to get the crisis manual down off the shelf and look at it and go check by check, okay, when do we call the cops? When do, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And man, if I hadn’t looked at that stuff ahead of time, if I hadn’t thought about that ahead of time, um, that would’ve been a terrifying moment. Rusty George — Right. Rich Birch — So this is a perfect course for that kind of thing to, because you might not have, we, you know, I just blew past that. You might not have a, a crisis response, you know, kind of thought about as a church, and this could help you think through this ahead of time. So I would strongly encourage people to drop by, uh, pastorrustygeorge.com, pick up this, uh, today. Anything else you wanna say just as we wrap up today’s episode? Rusty George — Uh, just that I would, uh, love to help out as many people as possible, not make the mistakes that I made, not deal with the grief that I dealt with, so that we can hopefully, uh, keep some guys in the game a lot longer. Uh, because our, our world is in need of so many more churches, and not just churches that keep the doors open, but healthy, uh, thriving churches, which is why I’m such a fan of unSeminary. So thanks for what you do, Rich. Rich Birch — Thanks Rusty, appreciate what you do, and thanks for being on the show today. Rusty George — Thank you.

Thank you for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Brian Dodd back with us. He’s the Director of New Ministry Relationships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions, as well as blogging at Brian Dodd on Leadership and the author of several books. Brian is talking with us about the current state of the church post-pandemic and what we are seeing in terms of church growth. Plus don’t miss the practical tool he offers for discipleship and leadership development. Connect and restore hope. // Brian has a unique vantage point as he works with growing churches, noting that churches that focus on Jesus, the Bible, and discipleship are flourishing post-pandemic. COVID-19 has stripped away non-essentials, and people are looking for what’s real and authentic. The primacy of scripture. // While the attractional model still works, churches that model personal holiness and excellence while focusing on the primacy of scripture without the glitz are thriving. Realize that as a preacher you’ve been given a specific message to deliver to a specific group of people at a specific time, and that message can change people’s lives forever. People are dramatically attracted to these type of leaders and churches. Connect people to God’s word. // We’ve raised an entire generation of people who don’t know who God is. They may come to church on Sunday, but don’t have an active relationship with God Monday through Saturday. Give them practical handles to hold onto in the struggles they face each day. Great systems in small groups that route people in to where they can learn about God’s word and what it says about their life are what people need today. Churches that do that are the ones that are bearing fruit and growing. Seven skills. // Brian also shared about his process of writing his latest book, “Mighty: 7 Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress,” and how it can be used as a tool for pastors and church leaders. The book is based on the 31 verses in 2 Samuel 23 about David’s mighty men and pulls out seven skills that are important for leaders to have in a post-pandemic world: production, passion, resilience, teamwork, contentment, courage, and faith. Each chapter has study questions at the end, making it a great tool for discipleship or developing a leadership culture in churches. Serving others. // If you want to move forward in a post-pandemic world and become everything God wants you to be, these seven skills will help you develop your leadership. Brian wraps up by underscoring the importance of serving others first in our decision-making rather than serving ourselves. If we make ministry and leadership about other people, it will lead to exponentially greater results in the long run. You can learn more about Brian’s books at www.briandoddonleadership.com. Plus order “Mighty: 7 Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress” in bulk here. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Leadership Pathway If you are trying to find, develop and keep young leaders on your team look no further than Leadership Pathway. They have worked with hundreds of churches, and have interviewed thousands of candidates over the past several years. They are offering a new ebook about five of the core competencies that are at the heart of the leadership development process with every church that they partner with…just go to leadershippathway.org/unseminary to pick up this free resource. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well hey, friends welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I’m super honored to have Brian Dodd with us again on the podcast. We were saying this has got to be maybe the fourth or maybe even fifth time. I just love Brian – he’s got a huge heart for serving church leaders and he there’s a very few small group of people who who I say, listen anytime you want to come on, you come on, and Brian is one of those. Ah, he’s the Director of New Ministry Relationships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions. He’s been blogging since blogging was cool. Ah, it’s called Brian Dodd on Leadership. Feel like you know it’s not a lot of us still doing that but he’s still doing it, which is amazing. And he’s author of many books including his most recent book, “Mighty: 7 Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress”. Brian, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Brian Dodd — Hey, Rich, it it is an honor to be back again. I love hanging out with you, love investing in your audience. Love your heart as well, and you were blogging when blogging what you know was cool also. So… Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — …you you and I have persevered and are are still trying to get our voice out there and serve leaders through that medium. So. Rich Birch — Yeah I love it. And your you know I love your I still every week um, you know I’ll love where every week you you know you do this post that’s like the top 10 things that you’ve read that week on Twitter. And all still like check that out and look through and you’re a good curation source of like, hey where you know what you know think good the good ideas. So I’m glad you’re here again. So you you and interact well fill out the picture. What did I miss about Brian Dodd what you know, what how else who else are you? What do you want people to know? Tell us about Injoy that kind of thing. Brian Dodd — Yeah I mean as far as me. Yeah, I mean you’re right? You you hit them. You know my daytime job is I serve pastors and church leaders through Injoy Stewardship, helping with leadership development and developing cultures of generosity. Brian Dodd — Evening, for fun and it’s actually turned into something more than fun, I run the website briandoddonleadership.com. And coming out of that’s come a podcast for books, you know, just a number of of resources there to help pastors and church leaders. but being a husband of 32 years and, you know, my wife just retired from being on staff where we attend church. And my daughter is 24 and she’s on staff as a worship leader at a church. Thrilled for her. And come November 12th is the expected date she’s gonna make me a grandfather. So. Rich Birch — Oh my goodness. Brian, how is such a young man like you a grandfather – I don’t know how that’s possible. Brian Dodd — I tell you it’s Abraham in reverse it’s, you know. Ah, but yeah, I mean so ah, you know so it’s ah it’s a great season for the Dodd family and and we’re just thrilled about everything God’s doing in our lives. So. Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. That’s that’s so great. I know my ah my wife, we have young adult children who are not in the like thinking about kids mode. But my wife is definitely. She would like to be a grandma so she’s like ready for that. And I’m like you got to just keep that language down a little bit. You know you got to got a few more stages to go here before we get to that. But that’s so cool. That’s great. Rich Birch — Well you have ah you know you have a unique vantage point um, and I appreciate you coming on to the podcast to try to take advantage of that vantage point. You interact in your day job with church leaders all the time all across the country in your unique slice, you know, folks that are growing and looking to do new things and all that. And I wanted to kind of pick your brain a little bit around what you’re seeing in this I really do think it’s post-pandemic. You know I was last weekend I saw I was at the movie theater in our town, and there was this like hole these holes random holes on the wall. And I was like what what are those holes there. And I was like oh that’s where there used to be one of those like hand sanitizing stations. They obviously have taken it down and not patched the holes. And I was like hey, that means we’re post pandemic not hand sanitizer as much everywhere. But what what are you seeing kind of you know from your vantage point when you think about the church in this kind of current phase. Brian Dodd — You know, Rich, listen to your story you know, Barna and Gallup they spend all this money you know trying to figure things out and if they would just go to a movie theater and look for hand sanitizer, they would have already had all their answers. Ah… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Brian Dodd — I think I, because all I do is deal with growing churches, you know, churches that need to raise money for expansion, or major renovations, or payoff debt to do more money or new campuses. So I have a very unique vantage point. And here’s what I’m seeing, and I’ve actually talked to pastors at conferences to see if they’re seeing the same thing and it’s it’s been validated. Brian Dodd — Ah churches today who understand that it really is all about Jesus, the Bible, his word, how he can change your life, and here’s the steps to do that through discipleship. Those churches are flourishing and here’s why: um Covid stripped away all nonessentials. You know, people people lost a lot during Covid. You know, they lost hope, which may have been the worst. You know, they lost family members. They lost careers, they lost money, they lost trust in just life in general. Some of them lost faith in God through that whole process. So they are they are looking for what’s real. Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — And they recognize, if I can use phrases like this flash and dash or glitz or anything like that. Yeah, you know a hazer is not going to reach people for Jesus, you know. Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Brian Dodd — And I talk to pastors all the time I say does the attractional model still work? Well in my opinion, yes, and no. No, the opulence, the over the top things, the wow factor – ah those type of things people don’t need that anymore. Rich Birch — Okay. Brian Dodd — They they need what’s real. They still they still won’t excellence. But if you give them… it’s it’s strange, Rich. It’s almost a 1980s messaging. If you give them a 1980s messaging with a 2000s level of excellence, those churches are thriving. And those are the churches that I see God blessing tremendously. And what does that mean for pastors and church leaders? I say this if you focus more on your personal holiness than you do your personal preferences… Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Brian Dodd — …and you realize that as a pastor, I am not a communicator, I am a preacher I’ve been given a message by the Ancient of Days to deliver to a group of people at this point in time in human history – a specific group with a specific message at a specific time that can change their life forever, people are dramatically attracted to those type of leaders and those type of churches. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. You know and some of this I think we were seeing movements of this before covid for sure, and I think covid in some ways has accelerated or intensified I do think that idea that you know there was so much stripped back during that time frame um, that you know the kind of flash and dash or the you know like the flash in the pan kind of thing I think faded away is not you know, not around anymore. I know there was a study done by our friends at Gallup before the pandemic, so this was 2018 or 2019, where they asked people who attended religious services—it was not a particularly Christian sort of study—but they were saying why do you attend? And to me I found lots of hope in it actually they were said three quarters of the reason why people attend was because of the message because of what was what was being taught at those. And then they asked those people, what is it that you’re looking for in those messages? And the two things that came out um, and almost neck for neck one is it needs to be based on scripture, and the second is it needs to be applicable to my life on Monday like it needs to have you know applicable you know outside of this you know this thing. And to me I took great hope in that because I would say hey that is that’s what we want our churches to be. We want our churches to ultimately point people back to the person of Jesus, not to ourselves, that we’re not the we’re a signpost we’re we’re hoping that people um ultimately see him and will walk out as changed people. What are some ways what are some examples of that? So this idea of like hey churches that are that seem to be thriving in this day are are ones that are focusing on you know transformation, or focusing on um you know what you know what what are some examples of that that you’ve seen as you’ve engaged with people? Brian Dodd — Yeah, um, I’ll just I’ll just use you know some churches that I know firsthand. I’ll give you some practical tips and you know some of your listeners may go you’re getting into behavioral modification a little bit, but I would say, you know, these these are the expectations. Um, you know you can no longer lead from the green room. You know you you you will lead from the lobby and the sanctuary. You know your staff needs to be in the front row with their bibles open taking notes. They need to be leading in that spiritual hunger. Brian Dodd — Um, you know pastors, old testament and new testament, biblical teaching. Rich, you said it best tell me who God is. We’ve raised up an entire generation of people who don’t know who God is. Ah, tell me who God is. Tell me what his plan for my life is. I’ve heard that he loves me but tell me what that means. And as you said, Rich, so well, what does that mean to me on Monday through Saturday? And give me real handles that I can somehow… because what are people dealing with today? Um, you know I’ve got neighbors – one’s got cancer, one’s got a kid that’s wanting to transition, one’s struggling with their marriage. Another’s got financial challenges, another another’s in the banking industry. So their career is in flux. They need something real that they can hold on to. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — And so you give you give people real… Ah by the way too um, you know this discipleship, whether you want to call it Sunday school, on campus small groups, small groups, community groups, whatever phrase you want to use, but great systems that route people in to where they can learn about God’s word and what it says about their life, and the bible has to become primary and not a reference point. Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Yeah, that’s so good. Brian Dodd — The church…yeah, churches that are doing that and elevating the scriptures to a point of primacy, those are the churches that are yielding tremendous fruit currently that I’m seeing. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s I love that. I love that you’re pointing that out. Listen, you know, I’ve made the joke you know, kind of privately for years that I’m like, friends, just because it’s just because it rhymes doesn’t mean it’s true. Like there’s preaching out there that doesn’t have this kind of like um, is it actually pointing people back to God, or is it just like those are your interesting ideas. And we have to come back to part of what you know I worked with a guy by the name it worked for a guy by the name of Tim Lucas for years and one of his coaching on his teaching is you know when when when he teaches like, listen I need to get to what the bible says like with and he was a dog on it whenever we had other communicators preaching. It’s like you’ve got to get to what the bible says like in the first two and a half, three minutes. Like do not don’t where you know there’s some messages you go to and it’s like you’re 20 minutes in and you’re like are we ever going to land on scripture? It’s crazy. Brian Dodd — Well you you know, Rich, I heard a sermon once and I don’t know if this individual listens to your podcast or not and if if he does I apologize. But you know his whole thing was Adam and Eve shame equals blame. Okay, so that was his whole thing. It was the rhyme. That’s what made me think of it. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Brian Dodd — And so if you just do a bought just a basic Google bible search on verses on shame. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — What you learn is shame is what happens when you sin and let you know that you’ve missed God’s mark, and you’re separated from God. The issue is what do you do with it. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — Now Adam and Eve blame. But if you shame is ah is an action point or is an impetus for repentance. Brian Dodd — Shame is not bad. If you don’t have it by definition we live in a shameless society. Rich Birch — Oh right, right. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Brian Dodd — So we actually need a little more shame… Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — …and a little people responding to shame in a way that’s godly. Now blame is the wrong way to handle it. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — I will I will give that I will give that pastor credit on that. Um, but shame, shame can shame can be a driver towards repentance and you know getting back in a right relationship with with God. So. Rich Birch — Nice. Now… Brian Dodd — That’s just an example to support what you’re saying. Rich Birch — Love it. So now do do you cover this in your most recent book 7… “Mighty: 7 Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress”? Is that is that kind of stuff you’re talking about in in this book? Brian Dodd — Well I you know I talk about a number of things in the book. One of the seven skills is faith. You know if you want to move successfully in a post-pandemic world and become everything God wanted you to be and everything you were meant to be, ah faith is the seven skill is the seventh skill. And so it’s actually the most important too. But I do have a page or two dedicated to what I’m seeing in churches that are experiencing post-pandemic growth. Rich Birch — That’s interesting. Yeah, so talk to me about talk to me about this book. Talk you know this the thing I love about your your books is they’re very grounded in I don’t know how you observe so much that’s going on in the world around you. You have like this giant ability to like see things that are happening and integrate them all together. You see connections between things that I’m always like, man, how does he connect all those dots? It’s pretty amazing. But talk to me about that; talk to me about Mighty – what led you to read write the book, and and what are you hoping people get out of it? Brian Dodd — Yeah, and so let me address that. But I want to talk about how I connect things because I think this will help the executive pastors… Rich Birch — Okay. Brian Dodd — …because I want obviously I want them to get the book but also want them to have some tools that make them better. So whenever I write, or I collect information, or I try to build cases for various things, Rich, it’s always the law of the second question. Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Brian Dodd — So the average person will go to church and they’ll they’ll be driving home and they’ll go well that is a great service. I had a wonderful time. And then they’ll talk about lunch, or the football game, or you know whatever they’re doing that afternoon. It’s the law the second question – the ability to stop and then go, okay, exactly why was it a great service? Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — Well that’s your blog post. That’s how you coach your staff. That’s how you build momentum because you can replicate the things that God’s blessing and the things you’re doing well. But but that’s that’s the process I go through. It’s really not that complicated. It’s the law of the second and third question, and actually collecting that data and leveraging it for future growth. So that being said… Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — …one of the things that fleshes out of that future growth is a book. Okay? So I I did a couple of devotions for work for church and actually for the local business association. And for the local business association I left out chapter and verse. But I really did something on the 31 verses in 2 Samuel 23—David’s mighty men. Because in that that that passage takes place in 1018 to 1014 B.C. David’s on the run from Saul. So I mean he’s he’s in the wilderness, and he’s lost his friends. He’s lost Jonathan. He’s lost his wife. He’s lost his position. He’s lost his income. Sounds a lot like 2020, doesn’t it? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. True, true. Brian Dodd — You know and so he’s lost everything. Well he starts attracting all these people that the bible refers to as distressed, in debt, and discontented. Okay, so out of this collection of misfits, he forms this elite fighting force called David’s Mighty Men. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Brian Dodd — And that’s how history remembers them. So I began when I would give devotions on it and give speeches on it, it was really well received, and I’m thinking, Okay, this thing’s got legs. Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — You know it might be the right message for the right time. And so I chronologically go through that particular set of verses. And the different skills, one’s not more important than the other except faith, which is number seven. Because there’s two sections in there where it said, and the Lord worked a great victory. So without the Lord, the other six, you know, aren’t aren’t going to give you the victory that you want. But I just chronologically go through that passage. And so that’s where that’s where the seven skills come from. Rich Birch — That’s with the seven. So this is production, passion, resilience, teamwork, contentment, courage, and then faith – so these are the seven… Brian Dodd — Right. Rich Birch — …kind of truth that you’ve pulled out, the seven skills. Brian Dodd — Yeah. So for instance I’ll just do the first one because you mentioned it first… Rich Birch — Sure. Yep, yep. Brian Dodd — …and it’s the first thing. The the chief of David’s mighty man was a gentleman named Josheb-basshebeth. And what we learn about Josheb-basshebeth… Rich Birch — Great name. Brian Dodd – Yeah. I’ve had to practice a lot on the name. Rich Birch — <laughs> Brian Dodd — What we learn about him is he killed 800 men with a spear. Rich Birch — So crazy. Brian Dodd — Now here’s the deal, Rich, I am prone to embellishment. Like I go, oh that’s the most awesome thing I’ve ever eaten. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — Well, it’s a burrito. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, right. Brian Dodd — Okay, it’s not the most awesome thing I’ve ever. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Brian Dodd — It’s you know it was tasty, but it’s not worthy of awe. Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Brian Dodd — And it’s you know and you know so I’m prone to embellishment. But when the bible says he killed 800 men with a spear… Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — …he killed 800 men with a spear. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — So if you mentally insert yourself into that story and you’re walking with him, and however he comes upon this army, whether they’re hunting him down, there’s probably a bounty on his head. Or whether he’s hunting them down or whether they just come together, in any event there’s this confrontation between him and 800 men. And I just have it in my mind that he says, okay Brian, back up I need to take care of this. And I back up 50, a hundred yards because I’m sure they got bow and arrow. So I’m backed up a pretty good way and I watch him go to work. Rich Birch — Sure. Brian Dodd — And just on him I noticed three things about him. Rich Birch — Okay. Brian Dodd — Number one: he’s a master of his craft. He knows how to work a spear. Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Brian Dodd — And I talk about being a master of your craft. Number two breathtaking health. If you’d never watch two individuals get into a fight, and I’m not talking about professional combat, like um MMA or boxing or anything like that. But like your little league game. Okay? Rich Birch — Yep, yep, yep yep. Brian Dodd — You’re going to notice two things. Number one, it’s over very very quickly. And number two, both are exhausted, probably from an adrenaline rush. But… Rich Birch — Sure yep. Brian Dodd — …you know he had the health to conquer 800 people. Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — And the fourth thing you learn about him is there could be no wasted movement. His level of efficiency was that an elite level. So for instance, if you want high production in a post-pandemic world so that you can be a person who can accomplish great things for God and your organization in your church, yeah, you’re going to need those three things. You’re gonna need to be a master of your craft. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — You’re gonna and part of that is you’re going to have to master the fundamentals of your craft. Rich Birch — So good. Brian Dodd — You’re gonna have to have yeah you got to have great health. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — Because if your health goes it that’ll take you down. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — You can recover from a lot of things, but if your health goes that’ll take you down. And number three, you’ve got to be highly efficient. Ah edit your life and eliminate all the nonessentials. Rich Birch — So good. Brian Dodd — And so I unpack in that one chapter I unpack all three of those things that we learn from Josheb-basshebeth. So that’s one example and of course you’ve got the other six that you mentioned earlier. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that That’s so good. And you can see even with those this again this is, friends, this is a part of why I love about Brian’s communication style. Like he’s so good at just you know it’s the the high juice to squeeze ratio. You’ve got like one thing there and we’re squeezing all kinds of um, ah very applicable lessons out of it for you ah you know to really wrestle with I think this could be a great you know an encouraging text for people, encouraging book to pass along. But then you you go from um from the passage and then give some real some kind of contemporary examples. Brian Dodd — Yeah. Rich Birch — Talk to me how all that works. How does how did that how do how did you how you weave those in as well. Brian Dodd — Well you know, Rich, you’ve written a book. Okay? Have you written more than one or just one? Rich Birch — Yep, two. Yep, two books, working on the third. Oh sure. Brian Dodd — Okay, so you’re you’re you’re a writer, so I’m gonna and I think every leader has a book in them. Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Brian Dodd — So if you’re thinking about writing a book I’m going to walk you through briefly kind of the writing process of the book. Okay? Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — Um, I noticed when I used to read Malcolm Gladwell at the very beginning of his chapters, there’d be a bible verse. And then he would write about whatever he’d want to write about. So in my second book Timeless which was Ten Things That Apex Leaders Have Always Done and Will Always Do, I actually expanded on Malcolm’s thoughts. And so what I did is I I opened up not with a bible verse but with a biblical framework for that particular skill. And then because it’s timeless things that people have always done will always do you had the biblical text but then I brought in modern examples. Okay. So mighty takes that concept. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — And so I will build out whatever those, you know, courage or contentment or teamwork or whatever it may be, I’ll build out what the text teaches and then have modern stories of people in a post-pandemic world who are living that out. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — And so that’s that’s how the book is actually structured. And and here’s another thing and and, Rich, I want to say this. And this this is a different point but I do want to invest in your audience a little bit beyond just content of the book. Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — This is my fourth book. Okay. Here’s the big lesson I learned in my fourth book. My first three books were were about me, if you want to know the truth about it. Rich Birch — Sure, sure. Brian Dodd — My my first book is I just wanted my name on something. I had this book in me I just wanted to get it out. I wanted my name in the Library of Congress. I wanted to plant my flag in this earth. Rich Birch — Sure. I just wanted my name on something. Rich Birch — Sure. Now I love all 4 books. They’re like your children you love them all. Rich Birch — Yep, yep, yep. Brian Dodd — You know my second book, which was Timeless, that was a question I wanted the answer to. Are there common threads that the best of the best, regardless of industry, regardless of whether you’re a church or and athletic team – the best leaders, are there common threads in um? And the answer is yes. So that was the answer to a question I had is a research project if you will know the truth about it. Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Brian Dodd — Third book I wrote 2021: The Year in Leadership was a book I always wanted to write. The reason I started writing my website and my blog is I wanted to write a book. I can’t write fifty thousand, sixty thousand words at one time, but I can write 500 Rich Birch — Right. Yep, yep. Brian Dodd — And I would just house it on my blog and then kind of scrunch it together and make a book. Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — That was the book always wanted to write. Rich Birch — Yeah. Brian Dodd — So my flag, my question, my book. This book is the first book and it’s just me maturing as an author. But this is the first book I ever wrote for other people. Rich Birch — Oh good. Brian Dodd — In fact in the title 7 Skills You Need to Move from Pain… Rich Birch — Right, right. Brian Dodd — So this is the first book I wrote for somebody else. Rich Birch — Yep. Brian Dodd — And Rich, here’s the thing and this is what I want all your readers to know, and hopefully you won’t have to wait to your fourth book to learn it like I did. Okay? Rich Birch — Sure. Brian Dodd — When you make your ministry and your leadership and what you push and present to the world, it’s the old old Zig Ziglar phrase, if you give people what they want, you’ll get what you want. Rich Birch — Yeah, so true. Brian Dodd — Rich, this is the most pre-ordered, pre-sold book I’ve ever written. Rich Birch — That’s a good lesson. Brian Dodd — Ah it hit five five days into it it was the Amazon’s number one bestselling new release for Christian leadership. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — It hit Kindle three days ago and last night, its second day, it was number two. Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Brian Dodd — Now all the glory goes to God, and number two it’s a lesson I wish I learned a long time ago. If I would have made my writing and my leadership about other people sooner, and serving people sooner… Rich Birch — Yes. Brian Dodd — um you know it’d look different than it does today. But that’s the logic behind the book. That’s the structure of the book. And I think you’ve got XPs on here today that they’re they’re they’re having to make a decision – is this going to serve me, or serve my church, and if it serves my church, it might hurt me a little bit. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — I would encourage them to always serve other people and serve their church. It will work out for them exponentially better in the long run. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. I love ah, in fact, in our house we have as you leave kind of the door that we mostly walk out of, and we’ve had this since our kids were a little, we have these these these words it just says: help others. Um, you know that we’ve tried to with our kids all the way along say hey you know there’s a more rich and full life ah, if we orient around the needs of other people, and figure out how we serve them, and get around thinking about that. And what a vivid example um even from this most recent you know book that you’re working on. Rich Birch — I also love that idea of the framework. I found the same thing in the so two books that have been released, third that I’m working on. Um, it’s done actually – I’m just in that kind of like final grooming of it. Um, it’s that actually coming up with the the framework, the the substructure of how it all fits together is a big part of it, and getting that all kind of sorted out. Um, then from there you know it it does tend to flow because you’re just following the the structure that you’ve put together, the kind of the path that you’ve laid out. So um, love that That’s that’s encouraging to hear. I’m, you know, love hearing about this book. As it’s been out there, has there been any part of it… because the thing I found interesting about the things you you write is you write them and then people read them and they react differently, or like hear things that maybe you weren’t really thinking of, or kind of spurs interesting conversations. Has there been any of it—I know it’s just early—but has there been anything that’s that’s happened so far that’s kind of caught your attention as it’s been out in the real world. Brian Dodd — Well here’s what’s here’s what’s been interesting. Um, and then all 7 skills, I don’t think there’s one chapter better than the other chapter. But people gravitate to what speaks to them. You know like I’m wired for production. You know, I like getting things to done. I like checking things off a list I’m wired for production. I love the production chapter. So I was talking with a friend yesterday. He loved the passion chapter. Okay. He loved Eleazar and they had to pry the sword from his hand. So we spent a lot of time talking about the subject of passion and what that whole battle scene must have been like, you know, and [inaudible] people versus passion people. Brian Dodd — And so really the the interesting thing for me, and um in my other books there have been specific points that really jumped out to people. But what I’ve learned about this point is whatever a person’s gifting is, whatever their interest is, however, they’re wired, that chapter speaks to them more than the other six. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — So the good news about that is is it’s a book that no matter who you are as a leader, ah, here’s what I know one seventh of it you’re going to love. You know? Rich Birch — Which is pretty good! Love it. Brian Dodd — Yeah. Brian Dodd — So I you know look if we just get average on the other six we’re ahead of the game… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s funny. Brian Dodd — …but I know at least I know at least one seventh of the book, you’re going to read that you’re going to see yourself in it. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — And here’s another thing, Rich, that I’ve had another person tell me, anyone can be mighty. Rich Birch — Sure. Oh love that. Yeah. Brian Dodd — And you know, they just need permission to be mighty and they need some skills. And so this book this book is giving people confidence to go, and I don’t have to live in 2020 anymore. I want to leave 2020, I’ve started leaving 2020, but now I can leave 2020 in the most productive, successful, God-honoring way possible. Rich Birch — So good. Well this is fantastic. I know for me, you know I’m struck by this. I think this could be a great gift book to give to someone. I do think this would be a great maybe even a framework for a series, that kind of thing. I think it could be an amazing ah tool for church leaders and so I’m assuming we could pick it up, or I know we could pick it up at Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to send people, maybe to your website or there are other places we want to send them to pick up copies? Brian Dodd — Yeah, you you you can get on my website. Let me tell you who I wrote. You know, I said I wrote the book for other people you, let me tell you who I really wrote the book for. Rich Birch — Okay, sure. Brian Dodd — If the business community reads it and loves it, great. The athletic community if they read it and love it, great. And I hope they do. Okay. This book is written for pastors and church leaders, and at the end of each chapter I have a set of study questions. And here’s why I did that. Ah, it is a great discipleship tool. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — I am praying and my hope is that pastors will do it as a sermon series, and they’ll have an accompanying small group um lesson going right along with them. And they’ll read that chapter and then they’ll do those five study questions at the end of each chapter. And it does build to faith at the very end. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — Um, and so what I’m really really hoping is that you know because at churches, you know, I love the phrase we want to develop a leadership culture. Well absolutely. Question is how do you do that? Rich Birch — Yeah, what’s that look like? Yeah. Brian Dodd — And there’s there’s not many books out there, you know, like okay we can take ah a book and you can pick the name of any book, but let’s read a chapter. What’d you read? What’d you learn? How are you going to apply it? The old Dan Ryland process. Rich Birch — Mmm-hmm. Brian Dodd — And really what you’re doing is you’re repurposing a book to make it a discipleship tool in your church. Rich Birch — Right. Brian Dodd — This book is written for fun and enjoyment and learning and application. But it’s also written then know if you want to disciple your leaders, or you want to start a leader group, or a business leader group, or a sermon series, this book is written that you can do that over a seven week process. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — And obviously buying the book, to answer your question, buying the books on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. But if you go to Xulon press, who I used for my self-publishing, I would get the bulk orders through Xulon Press, if you want to do 10 or more. Rich Birch — Okay, love it. Good. Brian Dodd — And Xulon is xulonpress.com Rich Birch — Press dot com. Okay, great. Perfect. Well this is this has been fantastic. Anything else, you’d like to say just as we wrap up today’s episode? Brian Dodd — You know, Rich, you and I known each other a long time. Um I just want to thank you that you have given your life to serving pastors and church leaders… Rich Birch — Well thanks, man. Brian Dodd — …and you’ve been faithful in that. You’ve been consistent in that, and you’ve done it with unbelievable excellence. You’ve been a great friend for over a decade, and I just want to thank you. I mean to be honest, you are now such a constant in the church leadership world, you can be taken for granted. Rich Birch — I appreciate that. Brian Dodd — And trust me, there’s guys like me that we don’t take you for granted. So thank you for everything you’re doing. Rich Birch — Well I was, you know, it’s I appreciate that that’s super kind of you to say that – means a lot coming from you, Brian, for sure. You know, I was I was joking with our mutual friend, Carey Nieuwhof, we were talking about this. How um you know it’s amazing people come and go in this space all the time. But there’s like some of us have just been around. We just won’t let go. It’s like we just both you know if anything we got staying power, so you know I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. Ah, we want to send people to briandoddonleadership.com – is there anywhere else we want that to send them to get connected with you ah, to follow along with you and your story? Brian Dodd — Oh sure on Twitter is @briankdodd and Brian’s with an “i” and @briandoddonleadership on Instagram. So yeah, any of those. Rich Birch — Love it. We got links to them all on my website so you can go to the website and then springboard off of that. Rich Birch — Love it. Brian Dodd — But yeah, if you know love to interact with your audience, love to serve them in any way I possibly can. And yeah, just being an absolute honor to play a very, very small role in helping equip them to become everything God created them to be. Rich Birch — Thanks so much – appreciate that, Brian. Take care, brother. Brian Dodd — You too.

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We have a real treat today. We recorded this interview in person while in London, England with Marcus Gibbs, Vicar at Ascension Church. Are you looking for innovative ways to reach unchurched communities and serve the next generation?Listen in as Marcus shares the simple yet engaging Bubble Church model and its potential to reach unchurched communities and revitalize struggling congregations. Think creatively. // In London and the UK there are far fewer people who are familiar with Christianity or have any experience with church than in North America. That means churches have to really think creatively about how to engage people there. Marcus explains that unless you can answer the question of how to do church, no one will come through your doors. Open your doors. // Ascension Church set up a coffee shop inside their 100+ year old building that has become an avenue for drawing people in. Since opening Parish Coffee four years ago, it has transformed their outreach efforts. The coffee shop attracts a thousand people a week, and has provided an opportunity for the church to launch several other ministries, including a debt center, a refugee drop-in, and an eco-station. Marcus notes that 85% of his time is now spent ministering to people midweek, rather than just on Sundays. Bubble Church. // During Covid, Ascension Church also started a half hour service on Sunday mornings which is called Bubble Church. Aimed at parents and their preschoolers, the service includes puppets, action songs, a Bible story, and an activity or response. Bubble Church has become a beloved community for families who previously had no experience with church. Automatic onramp. // Not only is Bubble Church a great way to teach kids about God and the Bible, but it’s also a no-threatening way to introduce unchurched parents to the gospel. Kids and parents can get involved with serving during Bubble Church too. And as the kids grow older, it provides an automatic onramp to the next service at 10:30. As a result, Bubble Church has become a model for growth that the Church of England is adopting as a strategy for renewal for struggling congregations. Planning before you launch. // When Marcus and his team launched Bubble Church, there were elements of the service that they didn’t include initially. Marcus said looking back they would have handled differently talking about things such as serving, giving or even an offering prayer in order to normalize them to an unchurched crowd from the beginning. If certain elements aren’t present from the start, they can be hard to work in later. Where is God already at work? // When Marcus first became vicar of Ascension Church, he had his own ideas about the sort of community he wanted to reach and serve. It wasn’t until God opened his eyes and showed him who He was bringing to the church through Parish Coffee that Marcus realized he needed to focus on serving young families. As church leaders we need to recognize where God is already at work and lean into that, adapting to the needs in our community. To learn more about Ascension Church and Parish Coffee visit www.ascensionbalham.org and explore the Bubble Church model at www.bubblechurch.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Chemistry Staffing One of the things that they never teach you in seminary is when to move on from your current church. Over the last couple of years, we have been having a TON of conversations about this with pastors all over the United States. Of all the ministry decisions you make, leaving your position will be the toughest. Download this two-in-one resource that walks you through the decision-making process. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Well, hey friends. Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you are tuned in today. We’ve got a, a special episode; today I’m recording live, which doesn’t normally happen. Normally I’m across a Zoom call, but in the room with my friend Marcus Gibbs from Ascension Church. This is a fantastic church in southwest London—that’s London, England for friends that are listening in—that you should, you should really should be tracking with. There’s some really cool stuff that’s happening here. They’re a Church of England church here in southwest London – that’s below the river, fantastic neighborhood. I’ve actually been here for the last couple days spending some time with Marcus and his team. So it’s been, it’s been just wonderful. Thanks for your hospitality in that. But Marcus, welcome. We’re so glad you’re here. Welcome to the show. Marcus Gibbs — Oh, it’s great to be here, Rich. And yeah, really been awesome hanging out a little bit, and yeah, just great to be on the podcast. Rich Birch — Yeah. Why don’t you tell us about the church. Kind of give us a flavor, maybe talk a little bit about the community, talk a little bit about, you know, how long have you been here – those sorts of things. Marcus Gibbs — Yeah, so I’ve been the pastor here for nine years, and it’s a great community. It’s really vibrant. We’re not in central London, but we’re not far out from the center. And they call it Nappy Valley round here… Rich Birch — Love it. Marcus Gibbs — So there’s lots of kind of young parents with young kids. And it’s quite a wealthy area, to be honest. People commuting into London, people working in finance, that kind of thing. And when I took on the church nine years ago, yeah, it it needed a lot of love to be honest. There was a lot of different things that I needed to look at, really practically even to do the whole building, which needed a lot of work. It’s a 140 year old Victorian building, and it, the heating at the time didn’t work, so we had to raise some money to put some central heating in and just to kind of get the place up and running really. So, but it’s, it’s, it’s a great community and I absolutely love it here. Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I, I love about talking with leaders like yourself who are leading in contexts where people don’t just go to church. You know, like give us a sense of the kind of spiritual makeup. Most of the people that are listening are American, but, you know, there’s a vast less number of people, percentage-wise, in London that attend church. Give us a bit of that makeup. Tell us about that. Marcus Gibbs — Yeah, no one goes to church. It’s, it’s, it’s like no one, like no one. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — There’s a lot of lovely people. They’re kind of good without God. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re kind of wandering around very, very friendly, very polite. They’ll, they’ll stand in line and queue and do really nice things, but, but fundamentally, no one comes to church here. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — You know, if you open a church here in southwest London expecting anyone to come, you’ll be sorely disappointed. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And that means that we have to really think creatively how on earth are we gonna do this thing called church here in this part of London. Because unless you get an answer to that question, nothing will happen. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And I think for us, the, the, the real sort of turning point was when someone in my congregation said, Marcus, we, we need to open a coffee shop in the church. Marcus Gibbs — And the moment—this guy was called Sandy—he said to me, we’ve gotta open a a coffee shop. I said, you’re absolutely right. I mean, people love that coffee round here. They love their flat whites; they love, you know, hanging out. And actually, it made a real virtue of the fact it was a 145 year old Victorian church. Because sitting, looking up at incredible architecture and stain glass windows, drinking your flat white is something that, you know, the local Starbucks can’t offer. Rich Birch — Absolutely. Marcus Gibbs — So four years ago, we opened the coffee shop, we called it Parish Coffee, and it has transformed absolutely everything. Because we now have around a thousand people a week coming through the church to drink coffee, to hang out. And suddenly we’ve become this church for the community. And I often say to people, we don’t wanna be the best church in Balham. We wanna be the best church for Balham. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so good. Marcus Gibbs — We want to be like a church where people say, if they weren’t there, we’d really miss them. And I think that’s, that’s kind of something that’s happened over the last few years where I don’t think they just miss us because they’ve missed their caffeine. Although I think they would, by the way, But I think what we found is on the back of the coffee shop being open during the week… Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — …we’ve been able to now launch several other ministries. So we’ve been able to open a debt center to help people with debt problems. We have a refugee drop-in for people who have landed on our doorstep from other countries who need help and support, and so that’s now started. We run a little eco station where people can reuse and refill their kind of empty shampoo bottles and things like that with new products instead of rebuying plastics so that they’re caring for the environment. Marcus Gibbs — Plus we’ve now become a place where the local sick from college come and visit and, and hang out and eat, eat donuts, and drink coffee. So it feels like this place is now really alive during the week. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Marcus Gibbs — And it’s totally, I mean, it’s ruined my life in the, you know, my life before the coffee shop and before all these initiatives was mainly based around Sunday. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — You know, it’s like you spend the week getting ready for Sunday. Rich Birch — Right, right. Marcus Gibbs — I’d now say 85% of my time is midweek… Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — …ministering to the people midweek. Rich Birch — Love it. Marcus Gibbs — Sunday, Sunday’s great. I love Sundays. Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Marcus Gibbs — But actually, it’s the other days that I, I love even more because that’s when we’ve got unchurched people walking in who, who just look around and say, wow. This is awesome. I love it here. Rich Birch — Love it. Marcus Gibbs — And I wander around and chat and sometimes get to pray with them. And then sometimes I sort of help by the, by the way, we I forgot to mention, but we do this thing on a Sunday, we do this thing on a Sunday called church. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Marcus Gibbs — And maybe you should try church. And they look at me and they say, oh, yeah, okay. Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — Let’s try church. That sounds good. Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — So, so it’s been, it’s been a real transformation for me as well, and it has been and continues to be a lot fun. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Well, the thing, yeah, I think listeners who are listening in, one of the things, I think it’s super critically important that we all learn from leaders like Marcus in context, like in some ways you are peering into the future. listeners. Because every community that, that are people that are listening is becoming more unchurched. And we’ll eventually end up exactly where Marcus’s community will and obviously outside of a dramatic move by the Lord, obviously, but this is what’s happening. Our church, our communities are becoming more and more unchurched. So in some ways, you are looking into the future by listening in today’s conversation and hearing about what, you know, some of the things that have happened at Ascension. Rich Birch — Now, I, one of the things that I was really excited to come, you know, fly across the pond to come and see was something called Bubble Church. This is a service that your church does first thing on a Sunday morning. I had a chance yesterday to check it out and just loved it. Tell me, what is Bubble Church? Just for folks that are listening, and give us a sense of what Bubble Church is. Marcus Gibbs — In real simple terms Bubble Church, it’s a half hour service on a Sunday morning, aimed at parents of little ones. I mean, preschoolers kind of up to five, six years of age and, and little kids. And it’s, it’s very simply in many respects, they come in, they sit on a bubble. What do we mean by that? A bubble is a little circular piece of carpet that the family sit on. And like I said, it lasts about half an hour. And there’s puppets, there’s action songs, there’s a bible story that the puppets act out, and then there’s an activity or a response so that after the Bible story, they open a little bag on their bubbles, on their mats, and they open it up and inside there’s maybe a craft activity, or a way of responding to the Bible story. And there’s some words that we use at the beginning and the end, and then all of a sudden, after about half an hour, we say goodbye. And that’s the end of the service. Marcus Gibbs — So it, it’s kind of family time all together. We kick off with coffee and croissants which is a very southwest London thing to do. And the, the parents and the little ones absolutely love it because it’s a service that is absolutely targeted and designed for them. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — Unashamedly so. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — We’re not trying to reach everyone. What we are trying to reach is is this demographic that we’ve got here of these young families with little kids. They don’t want to be in a church where people look at them and say, shhhh be quiet, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — So this service is like totally for them. And just a bit of a background is you know, we went from zero people coming to this service, and you, and, and I just wanna reiterate, no one comes to church… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Marcus Gibbs — …here in the UK, or it’s such a low percentage. And within six months we had over a hundred people coming through the door. Rich Birch — That’s, that’s amazing. Marcus Gibbs — And 8 out of 10 of these people have never been to church before. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Marcus Gibbs — So just get your head around that. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Marcus Gibbs — They didn’t grow up a Christian, their parents weren’t Christians, they’re coming with their kids, and they have never been to church before. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And so for us, this was like, wow. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing… [inaudible]. Marcus Gibbs — You know, we’ve been trying to get, if, if we could get an extra a hundred people a week coming who had never been to church before, within six months to our normal main service… Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — …we’d be like, wow. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Marcus Gibbs — And just a bit of background, we launched this during Covid, because here in the UK the government had said they, they clamped down and said, you can hardly do anything. You know, we, we had what was called a lockdown, we could hardly do anything. But one thing we’re allowed to do was to do an hour of excise a day outside. And the other thing was, they said, if you do go to church, you can go to church, but you have to stay in your bubble, which means you have to stay with your close family. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — And so we thought, okay, if you can stay with your bubble, let’s call it Bubble Church and we launched this church. Rich Birch — Love it! You redeemed all of Covid just for that. Marcus Gibbs — We did. We did. Rich Birch — If that’s, you know, and that really is what got kicked off and that’s that, and that’s, that was the initial catalyst. Marcus Gibbs — Yeah. Rich Birch — How did, how did you spread the word at the beginning? Because to me that’s amazing. Like, the fact that people, is it just, you know, people talk to their friends? Or what, what was it that kind of, you know, that initially got the word out there that people were able to hear about it? Marcus Gibbs — I mean, launching Covid times was actually a really good thing because people were hardly allowed to do anything. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And so the moment they found out, wow, we can go with our kids to this church service, we’re allowed to do that, that’s one of the things we’re allowed to do. It really helped. And so it gave them an opportunity to do something with their, their, their children. But also, I mean, we did run a toddler group for, you know, parents and little ones during the week, so we told them about it. There’s a lot of WhatsApp groups and FaceBook groups in this area that we advertised on. And amongst parents around here, word gets round. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — You know, if something good is happening… Rich Birch — Right, right. Marcus Gibbs — …they’re like, you should check this out. You should, you parents and moms and dads, they all kind of compare notes. And so the word spread and it’s continued to grow. And I’m really pleased to say that even though we are now post-Covid and there’s none of these lockdowns, we’re a little bit concerned, oh, is it gonna continue growing… Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — …or is it gonna now decline? Rich Birch — Yeah, cause people… Marcus Gibbs — Yeah, it, it’s continued to grow. And what’s awesome is the Church of England in this country who really understandably are looking for ways to, to grow the church, they came to us and said, look, we would love for you to roll out this Bubble Church to other churches around the country. Rich Birch — Right. Absolutely. Marcus Gibbs — And so they’ve given us some funding, and now we’ve employed someone whose job it is to basically go and coach and train other churches on how to run Bubble Church. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. Marcus Gibbs — And I, I’ll just, I just wanna say the, the thing that’s good about it is it is simple. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Marcus Gibbs — It is it is really simple. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — So when you go to explain it to other churches, it’s not like, oh, you need a PhD and you need to have really, like, studied, you know, theology, [inaudible] and… Rich Birch — Child psychology…yeah, yeah. Marcus Gibbs — …you know, it is, it is really quite straightforward. But for some reason, and obviously I believe that’s, that’s God, the Lord, it seems like we’ve developed a kind of recipe, a kind of way of doing this church service that really seems to work well. And if we can be part of helping other churches with that, then great. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. Well, and you know, I know so I’m not from a tradition that has a lot of liturgy or we have a different kind of liturgy. We would not call it what we do a liturgy. But one of the things that I found interesting about, you know, participating in in Bubble Church yesterday was there are a couple elements that, particularly at the beginning and the end, that feel very liturgical, but actually very much fit if I was watching a children’s television show. Like it’s the lots of kids TV shows do the same kind of thing where there’s like this, this predictability that that kids like. And, you know, as parents, we get to know all those things, which I think is actually super beautiful and amazing. You actually told me an interesting story about that, about the ending, kind of the benediction, for a lack of a better word, that, you know, impact. Tell me about that again. You told me that story yesterday. Marcus Gibbs — Oh no, it was lovely. We had we’ve had a couple of parents telling us that their kids, when they go to bed at night or at home, act out those words from Bubble Church. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. I love that. Marcus Gibbs — God is bigger than our fears. God is kinder in the kindest person, and they’re kind of doing the actions and they’re using these words. And they come to us and say, we act out Bubble Church at home. You know, and you see the power, actually. You know, we are not hugely liturgical here… Rich Birch — No. Marcus Gibbs — …but just a few words with these actions have really kind of lodged in, in the minds and hearts of these little kids. And it’s just, yeah. It’s beautiful. Rich Birch — Well, and the, the hope is the beautiful thing about those, I was thinking when you told me that story yesterday, I thought, man, there’s gonna be kids… you know, we always have to have an eye for, we’re not raising children. We’re, you know, we’re raising adults, right? We’re raising people who 30, 40 years from now, you know, I’ve got faith for, there’s gonna be somebody who is in a tough part of their life and they’re gonna remember, you know, God’s big, he’s bigger than my fears. He’s bigger than, you know, and he’s close, wants to be closer than a friend. All of that. It just is amazing. I think that’s incredible. Rich Birch — Do you have any stories of maybe a family that’s connected through Bubble Church that you’re convinced maybe your church wouldn’t have reached before, you just maybe who hadn’t stumbled into your, you know, your main service or any, any, your other programming that could kind of paint that picture a little bit about how this has helped your, your church reach the community? Marcus Gibbs — Yeah. Definitely. I mean, there’s this one family who – how can I put it? They’re like uber cool. I mean, they’re like, you know, they’re the most beautiful mother and father I’ve ever seen. Rich Birch — They got all the, the good genetics. Marcus Gibbs — Literally when God was handing out, like the good looking genes, they’ve got all of them. And, you know, they’re just lovely people, but I don’t think they would’ve ever have kind of come to church. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And something really funny happened. I I, I just know that, you know, their background was not one of church. And I heard them chatting to a new couple just the other week. And the new couple said, oh, are, are you, are you new here? And they said, no, no, we’ve been coming now for six months and this is our church. And I just… Rich Birch — Beautiful. Marcus Gibbs — …kind of overheard them say that. And I thought, wow. Yeah. This isn’t just some event they come to. This really, they see it as their church. This isn’t some kind of little kids group or something. They see it as their church. And they’ve now started to volunteer and help with Bubble Church. And their, their, their children are starting to now help lead the service as well. And this is, this is the really cool thing about Bubble Church I’ve found, is that as the children get older, there’s so many roles that they can get involved in, in terms of serving. Rich Birch — Right, right. Marcus Gibbs — So we’ve got some of the kids who like, you know, were really little when they started; they’re now a little bit older. They’re now doing the puppets. We get them helping us lead the service on the stage. We get them helping with the refreshments. And they just love it. And so this family who previously would’ve had, I, I think very little to do with church, now see it as their church. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And not only see it as their church, but are serving in that church. Rich Birch — Yeah. Getting plugged in. Incredible. Marcus Gibbs — And this is this this is just brilliant. There’s another family, there’s, there’s, there’s a chap called Gary, who I think is a single dad, actually. Rich Birch — Yep. Marcus Gibbs — Think a single moms is a single dad; he’s got two daughters. And you know, in the nicest possible way, I think he would’ve found normal church services just too much for him. Rich Birch — Sure. Marcus Gibbs — Like an hour and a half or an hour and a quarter… Rich Birch — Yeah, too long. Marcus Gibbs — …with his kids, I, I think he would’ve just found the whole experience almost too overwhelming, too foreign. Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Marcus Gibbs — Just something he wouldn’t have known about or known what to do, wouldn’t have known when to stand, when to sit. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — Just, it would’ve just not been for him. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — Whereas I think there’s something about Bubble Church. We all sit on these carpets on the floor, right? Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — It’s a bit like, it’s like a great leveler. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — We’re all in this together. Rich Birch — That’s good. Marcus Gibbs — The adults, the kids – we’re all on our bubbles. Rich Birch — Yep. Marcus Gibbs — And everything about it requires no prior knowledge… Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — …of church, of Christianity. And so I think for someone like him, he doesn’t feel stupid. Rich Birch — No. Marcus Gibbs — He doesn’t feel like he’s made to stupid ’cause he doesn’t know where to go to in the Bible when we say turn to this to the Bible. Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — It’s like, because we are doing it for the kids, the parents can learn as well without being made to feel stupid because because we’re explaining it to the kids. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — They can be learning… Rich Birch — Yes, that’s very clever. Marcus Gibbs — …without, do you get what I mean? Rich Birch — Absolutely. Marcus Gibbs — Without feeling like, oh, I don’t know what this means, or, you know… Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — …I don’t know this bit of a Bible or whatever. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Marcus Gibbs — So I think, I think we’ve found that it’s very accessible. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And you know what, it’s just really turned things around here. Rich Birch — Yeah. I love it. Now talk to me about, I’m sure there’ve been a few times where you’ve maybe stubbed your toe or you feel like, hey, we did stuff that maybe didn’t work. Or like, there was some things that maybe were like, if you were talking to other churches, you’d be like, avoid this. Has there been anything with Bubble Churches you’ve got launched that, that, you know, you would, you would advise people as, as they’re thinking about this kind of thing, you know, to, to maybe do different? Marcus Gibbs — Yeah, I think—and we’ve talked a bit about this, Rich—I think one of the things we didn’t do at the beginning because we were so excited about people coming through the door, is we didn’t mention giving at all. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — And you know, we just wanted them to be blessed… Rich Birch — Right, right. Marcus Gibbs — …and feel like this is, you know, kindness of our hearts. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — And, and that was lovely and, and it really is lovely. But I think what I’ve learned is if things aren’t there from the start… Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — …are quite hard to then crowbar in later. You know what I mean? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Marcus Gibbs — It’s like you know, if we’ve been doing Bubble Church for a year and then all of a sudden out nowhere, we start to include a little slot in that half an hour talking about, hey, would you like to give to the work of our church? Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — Suddenly people like, wait there! Rich Birch — Wait a second, is this a beat and switch? Marcus Gibbs — You know, you, you, you never talked about that a while ago. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — You now talking about that ’cause we’re… Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marcus Gibbs — And there’s a few things that I think looking back, not just on money, on, on serving, on, on offering prayer at the end, a few things that we’ve added subsequently. And it’s, it’s been all right. But I think if we baked those into it from the beginning… Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — …I think everyone would’ve gone with it. Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — And that would’ve been seen, that would’ve would be viewed as just normal. That’s part of what Bubble Church is. Whereas I think trying to introduce key elements later on… Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — …is trickier. Rich Birch — Yeah. That makes sense. Now, so one of the things you mentioned was that, which I think is amazing, is that you’re looking at, you know, helping other churches that are asking these questions. And, and one of the things you and I had talked about was, you know, I’ve had the opportunity to engage with some churches that are unfortunately at the, the end of life. They’re in the kind of, they’re in their, they’re death blows. Things are, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re considering closing. And oftentimes I find the saddest, most depressing part of those conversations are the leaders in those churches saying, you know, there’s, it’s been, and they know the date. It’s been 15 years since they’ve been a kid here. Marcus Gibbs — Yeah. Rich Birch — You know, it’s been 20 years since we’ve, you know, we have, we have a, we have a, a nursery that’s completely dusty because we haven’t had any kids here in so long. And the thing I I love about this is I do think from a church renewal point of view, like, man, it could be a great strategy. And obviously that’s a part of the story that God’s writing here. Talk to me about what your thought or your vision might be around some of that. Like, how could you see other churches adopting this? What could, you know, how could this fit in? You know, what’s your heart on that front? Marcus Gibbs — Well, I’ll tell, I’ll tell you the story of my friend Gabriel, who is based in North London. He’s a pastor of church there. And coming out of Covid, you know, we are good friends and he, he just says, you know, I’m really not sure whether I can carry on. You know, Covid had absolutely decimated his con congregation. They were an older congregation. A lot of ’em weren’t coming back. Things weren’t looking good. And he, he basically said, Marcus, can I steal Bubble Church? I just wanna steal the whole thing. Rich Birch — Love it. Marcus Gibbs — Can you send me just everything? Rich Birch — Send me everything! Send me your puppets! Marcus Gibbs — Send me the slides, send me the puppets, send me the Bible stories. Send me literally everything. Rich Birch — Love it. Marcus Gibbs — Video yourself doing it. Just send me the whole thing. And I said, of course. So we sent him everything and we, we look back now and realize he had the gift of desperation, you know, it was that, you know… Rich Birch — That’s good. I like that. Yes. Marcus Gibbs — …and he, he, he, he, he started Bubble Church. And we do it weekly, but he said, look, I, I don’t have the resources to do it weekly on a Sunday morning. I’ve already got my existing services, but I’m gonna do it monthly. And he phones me every month and just tells me story after story after story of how amazing… Rich Birch — That’s great. Love it. Marcus Gibbs — …Bubble Church has been. And how it has transformed his congregation. He’s also now built a whole new congregation with it. But he’s got the most incredible stories. I I, can I just share a couple? Rich Birch — Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Marcus Gibbs — So one is because he does it monthly, he, he was telling me that one of the dads of the little girl who I think she’s only three or four, asks her dad every week, is it Bubble Church Day? Is it Bubble Church Day? Rich Birch — No, not today. Rich Birch — And it’s like, not today. And Gabriel and I were saying we don’t know anyone who asked that question of our main service. Rich Birch — Yes. Right. Marcus Gibbs — We have no one who says, is it the 10:30 service today? Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — You know yet, yet here we have kids literally saying to their parents, is it Bubble Church? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Marcus Gibbs — And that’s just amazing. And then the other thing, the other story was he had some people who start coming to Bubble Church, and as often happens, London is a very transient place, and he’s in North London, and they said, we’re moving way out of London. And so, you know, we’re gonna be heading outta London. And he spent the next five minutes saying, we’re really gonna miss you. So sorry that, you know, you’re leaving. And they stopped him and they said, oh no, we’re not not leaving. He said, what? He said, we’re gonna travel from where we live outside London every month… Rich Birch — Wow. To come back. Marcus Gibbs — …to come back for Bubble Church. And he looked at ’em, he said, are you joking? He said, no, no, we’re gonna come back. And then he thought, yeah, but will they? Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — And they did. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. Marcus Gibbs — And so, and for me, the joy in this is—and I know you are like this, Rich, as well—seeing our other leaders, other brothers and sisters kind of see the joy of growth and God bringing people into their church. For me, seeing the transformation in his own life, in his own ministry… Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s huge Marcus Gibbs — …in his church… Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — …brings me incredible joy. Rich Birch — Absolutely. Marcus Gibbs — And I know sort of, this isn’t meant to be one big kind of advert for Bubble Church, but I’m, I’m just excited about it, because the other thing that starts to happen is, and he’s seen this at his church and we’ve seen this at our church, people then say, actually we’re gonna start to stick around for the next service. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — And or actually we’re growing out Bubble Church now, so we’re gonna stick around for the next service. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Marcus Gibbs — And I have spent seven of my nine years thinking, how do I grow my 10:30, my next service? Right? Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Marcus Gibbs — And ironically, the way it’s growing is because we started Bubble Church, which is before it. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — As those families are growing up… Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — …they’re going into the next service… Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — …and we’re growing our next service… Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — …but not in the way I thought we would be. Rich Birch — That’s great. I love it. Marcus Gibbs — And so actually it provides the sort of on-ramp to the next service. Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — And so that’s, that’s just been fantastic. Rich Birch — Marcus, That’s that’s so encouraging. That’s, I I love that. And I think the thing, you know, one of the transferrable lessons I want people to pick up here is, you know, Marcus, you know, has a passion for, you know, next generation, trying to help you know, families with kids. That, that is like at the core of what growing churches have done for years, which is, hey, we’ve gotta think about that. We can’t, that, you know, senior leaders, you can’t outsource that to someone else. You can’t outsource the passion. There’s parts of it that like at the end of the day, somebody else has gotta run these things and all that, that makes sense. But the passion for it, the like, hey, I’m excited to, you know, for that is, is that’s your role as a senior leader. You’ve gotta be, you know, fired up about it. Rich Birch — Actually, one of my, my memories that I’ll take for sure from my experience in Bubble Church yesterday was, yeah, I was sitting at the back trying to be the, like, you know, the guy watching everything and checking it out. And then I, I look up and, and Marcus is a, you know, he’s a vicar in the Church of England friends. He’s a, this is a serious man that’s on a serious agenda. And I look up and there we’re doing actions action songs and the vicar’s up there doing actions. And I, that just warmed my heart. I was like, man, that even for those kids to see, here’s a vicar who is willing to do these actions, personally, I think that’s gonna speak volume to generations. And obviously it speaks volumes to the leaders who are involved because they look around, and they can pick up whether they know whether you are actually passionate about this stuff or not. They know if you’re just trying to paint the, you know, just be like, no, no, this is really exciting and you’re not really that excited about it. And you know, I think Marcus is a perfect example of that. It’s just so great. Rich Birch — Well, when you think about the future of Bubble Church kind of up over the horizon, you know, where’s your, where’s your head go? What do you think, you know, either here locally or in other churches, where, where’s your your brain go? Where do you think this thing might be going next? Marcus Gibbs — Yeah. I wanna answer that, but I just wanna say on, on that point you said about me standing up and doing the actions and everything, I just want to quickly share that… Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — …God had to really break something in me. I, I, I just wanna share this because again, I, I keep repeating. I’ve been here nine years. Bubble Church happened two years ago. And I think maybe for the first seven years I had in my mind the kind of people I wanted to minister to here. Rich Birch — Oh, good. Oh, right. That’s good. Marcus Gibbs — I, I, I, I wanted these young professionals. We’re, we’re in London. I wanted these people in their twenties and thirties, probably single, you know who have great jobs in finance up in the city. That’s the kind of thing I did before I moved into church leadership and I, I was pretty much saying to God, look, here are the people I want to minister to. Rich Birch — Send these people. Marcus Gibbs — I’ve got, I’ve got some great talks and sermons to give. I can share my experience of when I used to work in London before I was ordained. I, I was pretty much saying to God, you know, I know, I know who my target congregation is. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Marcus Gibbs — And the church wasn’t great. Rich Birch — Right, right. Marcus Gibbs — The church wasn’t great. And I, I think there was just this moment where insofar as I hear God, I just felt him say to me one day, who are the people I’ve actually given you? Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Marcus Gibbs — And the people he had actually given me were the people in our coffee shop that I mentioned at the beginning. And when I looked around, they were all there with their strollers, and these little kids and loads of parents and little kids, and that’s the area we’re in. And I said, but God, they’re not the people I want to minister to. And he, we, you know, we did that kind of back and forth that… Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — …you know, you hear, and he said, yeah, but they’re the people I’ve put on your doorstep. And in that moment, I think suddenly realized, you’re right. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Rich Birch — No, that’s good. Marcus Gibbs — You know, I never, I never went into church leadership to do puppets. Rich Birch — Right. Marcus Gibbs — I never, I never went into… Rich Birch — That’s the quote of the episode right there. Marcus Gibbs — I never went into church leadership to do puppets. I never went into this to do action songs. Rich Birch — Yes. Marcus Gibbs — But fundamentally, the, the testimony is this, that since we went with I think the people who God was giving us versus the people he wasn’t giving us… Rich Birch — Right. That’s, that’s so good. Marcus Gibbs — …once we started to go with what he was doing… Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — …we’ve, we’ve started to see this incredible growth. And like I said, it’s impacting every era of our church. And so for me, you know, I’m just grateful I got there eventually; it took me a few years, but I’m just pleased I eventually got there and realized this was what God wanted to do here in our context, and I’m pleased I kind of finally worked that out. Marcus Gibbs — In terms of Bubble Church moving forward, you know what it’s not gonna be for everyone, that’s fine. You know, it’s, it’s not gonna be for every context. It’s not gonna be for everyone. But I do believe that because of its simplicity and because we’ve started to see how this works in all sorts of different contexts that it could well be for some people mm-hmm. And if they’re willing to give it a go, I’d say give it a go. And there is just nothing better than seeing a church start to fill up with young people again. So… Rich Birch — That’s so good. Marcus Gibbs — Yeah. Our hope is that, you know, we are here to serve. That’s it. Rich Birch — Yeah. Marcus Gibbs — We want to find ways of helping others launch Bubble Churches around the country here in the UK, but as you know, I’m open to traveling globally, and… Rich Birch — Particularly to warm climates. Marcus Gibbs — That’s right. Particularly to places with nice beaches. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. Marcus Gibbs — But no, anywhere we, we, we would love to be able to share what God’s shared with us really. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Well, and yeah, I just, I just want to honor you though, like, I think, so essentially what you’re saying is, hey, I saw where God was already at work, and I got on board with that. Which sounds really easy, but you actually did it. You actually leaned in and, you know, had the eyes to look and to look around and be like, hey, who, who’s actually here? And having, you know, I spent some time in your coffee shop today. I’ve been meeting with people and stuff, and it’s, it’s amazing. Like, it is like, yeah, these are all the people that you’re talking about. It’s lots of people with strollers hanging out with their kids. And and I that’s another really good lesson for us leaders as we’re listening in, is, is there’s the perception of who we think we want in our church versus who is actually here, or in our communities. And you know what, if you just leaned into who’s actually there, rather than you know, who you wish, you know, God would send you. I, I just think that’s, that’s so good. Rich Birch — You know, if people want to to track with you, to reach out, to actually connect with you, connect with Bubble Church, cause we’ve kind of talked a little bit about that. Where do we wanna send them online? Like what’s a website or that kind of thing? Marcus Gibbs — Just go to bubblechurch.org. Rich Birch — Yep. Marcus Gibbs — And from there you can get hold of me and you can find out more about Bubble Church. So that’s bubblechurch.org. Rich Birch — Okay. Easy. Super easy. And the other thing, the other person I wanna honor and all this is our friend or our mutual friend, Carey Nieuwhof. He, so he Marcus and I are both in an online community that Carrey runs called The Art of Church… The Art of Leadership, not Church Leadership, just The Art of Leadership. And I, it’s a fantastic online forum. It’s like a private forum. You have to, it’s like a thing, you gotta pay for it to get involved and all that. But that’s actually how Marcus and I got connected. And man, Carey does such a good job on that, does such a great job of pulling all that together. And just wanna honor him in, in all of that too, cause it, it really is a fantastic resource. If you don’t know about that, you should check that out. Rich Birch — Well, as we’re wrapping up, any final words, anything else you’d like to say as we kind of close down today’s episode? Marcus Gibbs — It’s just been great to hang out, Rich, and I really appreciate you. And I just want to add also how much I appreciate Carey and all that he’s shared online and with that network as well. I’ve learned so much, so thank you. Rich Birch — Yeah, thanks so much, Marcus. It’s been great to spend time with you at your church and, and just, you know, God’s best. I’m just excited to see what happens and, and I really do think churches, there are probably people who are listening in who today this has moved you, maybe even specifically towards, hmm, maybe we should find out more about Bubble Church. I would take action on that. Go to bubblechurch.org. Learn more, take some steps. Marcus is a great guy, very approachablev would love to help you. So thanks so much. Thanks for letting us be here today. Thanks for being on the, the show. Marcus Gibbs — It’s been great.

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Erik Henry, the Executive Pastor of Central Christian Church in Wisconsin. Data is critical to accurately understand what’s happening at your church and what’s changing over time. Listen in as Erik discusses the importance of using data to make informed decisions at your church as well as best practices for creating a survey that collects the needed information. Data allows you to make decisions. // As church leaders, we can rely on our gut feelings when making decisions. But what if we could use data to make more informed decisions? Data allows you to make decisions based on what is really happening, but it’s only as good as the question it answers or the decision it helps you make. Behavior and self-reported spiritual maturity. // It’s difficult to measure spiritual maturity because it’s so complex, individualized, and often cyclical. However we can measure behaviors and self-reported feelings about spiritual maturity. While this data isn’t useful on its own, tracking the changes to these measurements over time can help you determine what’s working and what needs improvement. Create surveys. // Surveys are a useful tool for gathering data and tracking changes over time. However there are also limitations of survey data and we need to interpret it carefully. For example, when measuring the self-reported feelings about spiritual maturity of church members, it is important to consider the sample of the church that is willing to take the survey. Erik warns against overstepping the difference between causation and correlation, as pastors may push certain behaviors as the mark of spiritual maturity, leading to a new kind of legalism. Focused and brief. // Erik emphasizes the importance of keeping surveys simple, clear, specific, and brief, with no more than 10 short questions. Each question needs to be directly aimed at something you want an answer to. The surveys at Central Christian Church are sent out via email and use Google Forms which most people are familiar with. Determine what to ask. // What are the key performance indicators for your church as a whole? Focus your questions on measuring your KPIs to get the most useful data from your surveys. Survey Fatigue. // Incorporating surveys into your communication strategy is a helpful assistant in the decision-making process, but be cautious about overusing it. Central Christian limits churchwide surveys to twice a year. After surveying your people, consider distributing the results and connecting it to your decision-making. You can learn more about Central Christian Church at www.centralwired.com. Plus check out examples of their surveys below: Central Check-in // A churchwide survey that assesses Central Christian’s people and finds patterns that may help the staff to help the congregation grow in their faith throughout the coming year. Central Check-in Results // Charts of the 305 responses to the Central Check-in survey. Example Staff Satisfaction Survey // Used to build healthy staff culture at Central Christian Example Volunteer Satisfaction Survey // Used to assess the volunteering experience at Central Christian. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Chemistry Staffing One of the things that they never teach you in seminary is when to move on from your current church. Over the last couple of years, we have been having a TON of conversations about this with pastors all over the United States. Of all the ministry decisions you make, leaving your position will be the toughest. Download this two-in-one resource that walks you through the decision-making process. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, everybody, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. You know every week we try to bring you a leader who will both inspire and equip you. Today is definitely going to deliver that for you. We’ve got Erik Henry with us. He’s the executive pastor at a church that you should be tracking along with, Central Christian Church. Now there’s only one of them in the country;I know this is one of those names of churches – there’s a lot of them out there so which one are we talking about? We’re talking about the one that’s kind of in the middle between Chicago, Madison, and Milwaukee. This is a fantastic church or a multi-site church with both English and speaking congregation. Ah, one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Erik, so glad you’re here. Welcome to the show. Erik Henry — Thanks for having me, man. I really appreciate that. Rich Birch — Yeah I’m honored that you’re here. I’d love to love your church. Love what God’s doing there. Can we start with kind of tell us about, for folks that don’t know, fill out the picture tell us about Central and then tell us about your role. What is what do you do as an executive pastor at your church? Erik Henry — Sure. Yeah, Central is a it’s kind of a… yeah I talk to executive pastors all the time and all of us say that our churches are weird. Um, every… Rich Birch — Mm, so true. Yes, very true. Erik Henry — Every church is not like any other church and so ah, but… Rich Birch — But yours really is. Yours really is. Erik Henry — Ours really is. Rich Birch — Love it. Erik Henry — But you know we we live we’re a large church in a small community. You know 35,000 people in our community and um, it’s not in a big city. It’s not in the suburbs. It’s not in in a growing area. It’s actually in a semi-depressed area, and so you know a lot of it’s very blue collar. It’s not white collar. You know people working in um, in executive roles. It’s it’s very blue collar community and it’s it’s just a different place. And so um I love it. I’ve been at Central for 23 years. I was actually teaching math, high school math… Rich Birch — Oh wow. Erik Henry — …and I I was on just coming to church here. They asked me to come on staff and start ah, young, ah like a Gen X Ministry, back when that was a kind of the thing. Rich Birch — Oh yeah, Gen X. Gen X, remember that? That was like all the cool and hip. Erik Henry — Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. That’s when we were young. Rich Birch — It’s going to happen to you, Gen Z friends. It’s going to happen to you someday. Erik Henry — True story. Rich Birch — But you’re going to look back and laugh and say, remember when they used to pay attention to us? Well they never paid attention to Gen X. I’m Gen X as well. So. Erik Henry — Yeah. Rich Birch — But yeah, that’s great. Love it. So you started there and then kind of works your way up. Erik Henry — So anyway so I started there. I’ve been here 23 years… Rich Birch — Yep. Erik Henry — …and I just kind of I can’t decide whether I kept getting promotions, or I just couldn’t keep a job. Rich Birch — I love it. Erik Henry — But I went from um I went from Young Adults to ah Worship Pastor to Creative Arts Director to Discipleship Pastor to a Campus Pastor. Rich Birch — Wow. Erik Henry — And then now I’m the Executive Pastor. I and I got into this role in February or a January of 2020. so I thought I was hopping right in at the perfect time… Rich Birch — Perfect. Erik Henry — …and then a month later you know what. Rich Birch — A vision for a new decade. You know, got 2020 vision we know exactly… all those churches that had clear vision for 2020, we know exactly where God’s going to lead us that year. No, not true. Erik Henry — Bingo. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Erik Henry — So um so yeah anyway so it’s it’s been a blast. I’ve so I’ve got 3 years under my belt as Executive Pastor. Rich Birch — Love it. Erik Henry — Um I you know we we had wanted this to be sort of ah a more of a ministry use ah, focused Executive Pastor role. We were going to hire on an Operations focused Executive Pastor, but you know with everything that happened um that I’m filling both of those roles right now. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — And so um, but truthfully I love it. I enjoy it. I but I am doing a job that I was never trained for, especially on the operation side. And so I’m I’m going back to school. Rich Birch — Love it. Erik Henry — I’m getting my MBA right now… Rich Birch — Oh very cool. Erik Henry — …in data analytics. Rich Birch — Data. That’s cool. Erik Henry — And so so it’s something something that I really enjoy. You know I’m a math guy; I’m a geek and so um, so the the data thing is exciting to me. I’ve been really enjoying. I’ll graduate with my MBA in December. Rich Birch — Right. Congratulations, congratulations on that. That’s so good. Erik Henry — Yeah, thanks. Rich Birch — Well you know data is interesting. I know a lot of we have a lot of executive pastors or executive pastor wannabees that are listening in ah and when you said data I know that people perked their ears up and said, ooh this one’s going to be a good episode. I’m excited about that. Because we do we think about… a lot of executive pastors see the world through spreadsheets; we that you know the world is just a series of spreadsheets, different tabs. Um, but you know talk to us about data. Why why is data important for us as church leaders to be thinking about? Erik Henry — Yeah, great. You know I love this stuff. Data for me, and I think it should be for everybody, data is all about making good decisions. Um, data is only as good as the question it answers or the decision it helps you make. Um and so ah, part of the problem that I see in church a lot is that churches and leaders in churches usually make decisions from their gut. You know? The the sense. Rich Birch — It’s so true. Erik Henry — So and and I’m not I’m I’m not denigrating that. There’s there’s a place for that. And and not just your gut but also your spirit. You know there’s a there’s a place when you are um, following and and listening to the Holy Spirit. There’s a place for listening and and ignoring data. But I think I think we do that a little too much. Rich Birch — Are okay. Erik Henry — And I think, you know, part of what I think is important about data is it allows us to make decisions based on what’s really happening not based on a gut feeling. Um and the reality you know as well as I do ah a lead pastor is going to hear what the people want him to hear. They’re gonna he’s gonna… Rich Birch — Sure. Erik Henry — …he’s going to hear what ah because people love him. Rich Birch — Yes. Erik Henry — People want to love him. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — People want him to think that they’re really on his side. And so sometimes even though a lead pastor can feel like they’re in the know and they get their people. Um it is not exactly that clear because they have a skewed understanding because people show them what they want him to see. Rich Birch — Yeah I love that. You know I’ve said for years, there’s there’s no bad information. There’s just information we don’t like. We want data. We have to get, ah you know, the the real information on the ground. But let me play the the you know the negative voice. Ah you know, listen come on, Erik, we’re in a spiritual game here. We’re we’re trying to help people grow spiritually. You can’t get that onto a spreadsheet so don’t even bother. Why would we do it at any level? Isn’t it just all about like you say you know how you know how the Spirit leads, but you know at its core, you know, we can’t; we can’t. The core thing that we hopefully do in our churches, see people take steps towards Jesus, you can’t get that onto a ah spreadsheet, can you? Erik Henry — And I agree with that, to a point. Rich Birch — Yes. Erik Henry — I do because there are things that we can measure and there are things that we can’t. Um and and so I’d like to, you know, first off the bat the first thing that I know that every pastor would love to be able to do is measure spiritual maturity. I can measure if you are where you are when you come here. and then I can measure how spiritually mature you are as you ah go through all of the programs or whatever of our church. My opinion, and this is just my opinion, you cannot measure spiritual maturity. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Erik Henry — It is way too complex. It is it is so clearly ah, an individualized um thing. It’s also it’s it’s circular. It’s cyclical, and it is not an up and to the right trajectory. Rarely is it that. Rich Birch — Right. That’s a good insight. Erik Henry — Also it has so so often it has so little to do with our church. The way that people grow we think it’s going to be our church that grows them. But the reality is the way that people grow is when they lose a loved one and they walk through that, and it’s painful, and in the end they see that they have gotten closer to Jesus as a result. Erik Henry — Now I’m not I’m not saying that there are no, there is no role for the church. Of course, there’s a huge role for the church at this. But to say that we can measure spiritual maturity. Um I think is a little ah overstating. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — But there are things that we can measure. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — We can’t measure maturity, but we can measure behaviors, and we can measure self-reported feelings about spiritual maturity. Rich Birch — Interesting. Okay. Erik Henry — Now I want to I want to suggest that those are two different things. Spiritual maturity is different, actual spiritual maturity, is different than self-reported feelings about spiritual maturity. Erik Henry — Because we’re not always um as self-aware as we want to be, as we wish we were. Rich Birch — Right. It’s so true. Erik Henry — And so um and so as we measure these things, it’s just really important that we are are clear and careful about describing exactly what we’re measuring. Um and mathematicians and statisticians, that’s what you’re about. We don’t want to overstate. Rich Birch — Yes, right. Erik Henry — We want to be very careful everything that we say is only what we can prove through the numbers. Rich Birch — Right, right. Erik Henry — Pastors, on the other hand, are not very careful. Rich Birch — God bless them. God bless them. Erik Henry — I love them; I’m one of them. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly. Exactly. Erik Henry — But we are not careful, usually, about how we use data. And it’s not because we’re… Rich Birch — Right. Well… Erik Henry — Go ahead. Rich Birch — No I was going to say like that’s like one of those standard running jokes, right? Like in fact I think it might even be in my bio where I talk about the sizes of churches I’ve worked at, and I even make the joke I’m like those are not senior pastor numbers. Those are actual numbers. Like because you know we all we all and I’ve… listen, the senior pastors I’ve worked for amazing gentlemen… Erik Henry — Yeah. Rich Birch — But they all this the guys I worked for had this propensity of like yeah, there’d be a room of whatever a thousand people, and there’s like there was at least 4000 people there today. And and so and that and we all have that – obviously they’re easy to make fun of. But we all do that. I do that. You know we we kind of skew what we see kind of fits our story. We’re constantly, there’s ah ah you know, ah a confirmation bias that we have. When when you talk about behaviors and then self-reported feeling, can you give us some examples of those? Erik Henry — Sure. Rich Birch — Let’s pull apart that a little bit; talk to me a bit about behaviors. Erik Henry — Sure, absolutely. Rich Birch — What are some of the behaviors if we’re trying to get at? Look under the hood, what’s actually happening in our churches? Erik Henry — So questions like, ah how many times a week do you read the bible? That’s a behavior. Rich Birch — Yep. Erik Henry — Um, that’s something that we track. Ah another so that there’s sort of the on your own behaviors. Then there’s also the ah are you a part of of participation in some of our church programs, like for instance, are you serving on a serving team? Yes, or no. That’s ah, an important question for us. Erik Henry — Are you um are you taking advantage of any of our classes or small groups. That’s another question, you know, that we’re trying to track. So those are behaviors. Am I doing a thing; am I um am I participating in a program? But then when it comes to self-reported feelings. It’s how how connected do you feel to other believers? Now that is a very soft number. Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Erik Henry — Do you know what I’m saying? That’s a 0 to 5 how connected do you feel to other believers at Central Christian Church. That the number 4 means almost nothing. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — Now what it what what it does do is you can start to track over time where that number moves to. So if if on average you’re 2.1 this year, and a year later you’re at 4.2 – whoa! Whoa! We did we must have done something. Something happened. Or you go the other direction. Ooo we’ve got a problem. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — But the first time you measure it a 4.0 means literally nothing, you know? Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, it’s just a… Erik Henry — And so those are the when it comes to self-reported feelings about spiritual maturity, you’re measuring the change. Not the actual number. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good. I love that. Now, so a part of what I hear you saying is actually really driving to doing more surveys, asking people to reflect on their their own. Erik Henry — Yes. Rich Birch — There’s obviously a couple different kinds of data – one is just like how many people are in groups. But another one is like are you in a group? That’s two different ways to look at it. Help me understand what place do surveys fit in in the way you’re using data, where you’re gathering gathering data, and then how that helps you in, you know, making decisions at the church. Erik Henry — Surveys are huge for us. Um, because trying to to, you know, you can you can count the number of people who go to your classes in small groups. You can count your attendance, you can count other things, but it doesn’t doesn’t give you all that much information actually. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — So there’s a difference between um, the number of people who show up in seats and the amount of times per month on average your your person, your people attend church. So how many times per month do you… you can’t get that in any way other than a survey. Um. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — There’s no real way to pull that off. So surveys for us are really important. We’ve gotten we’ve decided that we’re doing two surveys a year. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — We’re doing one every six months. So for me, there are there are four things that we are really careful about with surveys. Number one simplicity. It’s got to be simple. It’s got to be… Rich Birch — Yep. Erik Henry — …clear and easy… and the second one is clarity. got to be absolutely clear with your question. They can’t be they can’t have to think about it like, what do they mean by that? Specificity. Each question has got to be directly aimed… Rich Birch — Driving behavior. Yep. Erik Henry — …at a question that you want an answer to. And the fourth one, and I’m this might be the most important one, it’s brevity. You cannot ask more than 10 questions. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — And they but it better be very simple short questions if they’re 10 of them. Um, because people will not fill it out. Rich Birch — Yeah I… Okay, let’s talk about these two. Erik Henry — Yeah Rich Birch — Let’s keep pause here and drive driving on this a little bit. So you’re doing two big surveys a year. Um are you doing those like on weekends, slowing down the service, speed bump. Okay guys, either take out your phone, or you know here’s a piece of paper. Talk us through functionally what does that look like. Erik Henry — Yeah, yeah, we do. Um we we do two things with each of those surveys. Number one we send out send it out on email to everybody. The truth is we’ve decided Google Form is the best way to do it. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — I mean there’s lots of other things [inaudible]… Rich Birch — Yeah, there’s fancy stuff but um. Erik Henry — …Survey Monkeys, but what we found with our people because we are blue collar um, church, our people are like if you’re going to want me to learn a new thing to take a survey I’m not doing it. Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Okay. Erik Henry — And so everybody knows Google; everybody knows Google Forms, so we just send a link to a Google form. Click, click, click, click, click – it’s less than a minute usually that it takes to do a survey. Rich Birch — And what and what um, give me a sense of maybe a couple stories around stuff that’s changed at the church because of these surveys. That like, hey you know we we learned something here or it confirms something that was going on, um you know, that ended up kind of driving a different behavior. Erik Henry — Yeah, one one of the main there was a huge shift post pandemic in that number that I just talked about when it comes to how many times people come to church. It used to be less than two. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — Um, now we’re over three, so which is a major shift. So we have ah you know our our numbers are still not… in-person numbers are still not quite back to what they were pre-pandemic. Um, but the people that we have are coming more often. And so that just changes your communication strategies. It used to be we had to say something for four weeks… Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — …before everybody would hear it. It’s not the same anymore. Rich Birch — Right, right. Erik Henry — So that changes our communication. That’s a small one. But they’re just other things. Rich Birch — No, that’s a good example. Erik Henry — Yep. Rich Birch — Okay, so now I so ah one of the churches I served in, um, they had 2, 3 decades of they did an annual survey which was a great great practice. And we worked very hard to not change the questions… Erik Henry — Yes. Rich Birch — …because what we were trying to do was to try to get year over year, talk us through that. Ah, what does that look like? Erik Henry — Very important. And I’m sort of with our staff I’m like, hey what we have is what we have. Rich Birch — Yeah. Erik Henry — Don’t don’t suggest more. Don’t don’t… because that’s the there I mean listen, and it’s not their fault. Rich Birch — Yeah. Erik Henry — They’re like, oh man this is great. We’re getting all this information. I would love to get more information. Rich Birch — Yes. Erik Henry — I’d love to get different… I’d like to hear and that’s a great thing. You can’t do it. You gotta say, what is the stuff that matters the most? Because you cannot get people who are like, another survey are you kidding me? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Erik Henry — Or a 25 question survey? Never gonna fill it out. You know? Rich Birch — Yeah, I wonder if um, would you be willing to share us like a PDF or something that shows that… Erik Henry — Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Rich Birch — …whatever the 10 questions you use – that that’s great. We’ll put that in the show notes, friends, so you can see that because you should be doing this is a best practice. Rich Birch — I I want to come back to something you said there, ah because it connected to another idea I was thinking about which was, so you’re saying, hey you’re seeing that people are saying that they’re coming more. They’re actually their average ah number of times a month has gone up which is actually, I would say if you were to ask pastors across the country, they would say it’s gone the opposite direction. Erik Henry — Right. Rich Birch — So you’re seeing a trend that’s different now I actually think the deeper point is most people don’t know, they’re just guessing. Erik Henry — Right. Rich Birch — They’re blaming their lower attendance on that. Erik Henry — Yep. Rich Birch — Um, but you actually know that. How have you seen… how have you used the data to compare to national trends? Erik Henry — Yeah. Rich Birch — I’m sure that’s a part of the conversation of you know the way you’ve thought about these things. Erik Henry — Yeah, so one of the other things that I think is really important is you have to um, you have to think about the the skew of all of your data. So everything that we do, because we do in-person in the services we allow people to do it right in the service and we do email. Everything that you get, we had 305 responses to our survey this last survey. Um every one that you get is skewed because it’s somebody who is willing to fill out a survey. So there is a correlation… Rich Birch — Yeah. Erik Henry — …between someone who’s willing to fill out a survey and someone who’s willing to come to church more times a week or a month. Rich Birch — A month. Yeah. Rich Birch — And so ah so if you… for us to compare our 3.1 number with the national average, which I think right now is 1.6 or 1.7… Rich Birch — It’s just under 2. Yeah, yeah, yep. Erik Henry — Yeah um I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — Because usually it’s Barna who’s doing that research and they know what they are doing. And they are getting very ah um, they are getting sample sizes that are absolutely random. We are not. And so… Rich Birch — Right, right. Erik Henry — The the the statistician in me is like we can’t compare those two numbers. Our 3.1 is not equal to their 1.7. because… Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, your 3.1 is compared to, you know, friends that maybe are aren’t tracking along, the 3.1 is most relevant as compared to your 2.4 three, four years ago. Erik Henry — Exactly right. Rich Birch — Because that tells you that difference. It’s it’s hard to make that comparison to other churches and understand, you know, what does that, you know, what does that look like it. Erik Henry — You know and it goes back to it goes back to the question of what being very careful about what you’re saying you are measuring. Because we’re not actually measuring our whole church. We’re we’re measuring a sample of our church… Rich Birch — Right, right. Erik Henry — …that’s willing to talk to us. Um, and those are that’s a different question. And it goes back to also to you know what do you do with the information? The pastor always has the best of intentions. Rich Birch — Bright. Erik Henry — But you know I hear all the time I hear them saying things like, you know all you have to do is read your Bible every day, pray every day, um join a small group, give, and you know here’s this list of 5 things and you will be spiritually mature. And um, that sounds great… because what they do is they see this data and they’re like hey people who are are spiritually mature are doing all of these things. And so they think it’s a cause and sometimes it is. But the reality is they’re they’re overstepping. There’s a difference between causation and correlation. Rich Birch — And correlation. Yeah. Erik Henry — And so um, when you have those those ah the pastors who want to push all of these um behaviors, if behavior is the is the mark of maturity, you end up in the end with a little bit of a new kind of legalism. Rich Birch — Oh that’s a good insight. Erik Henry — Because it’s like if if you just check the boxes then you’re good. And that’s not how Jesus led. Rich Birch — Yeah. Erik Henry — That’s not how he taught. And it’s much more complicated than that and so but data is wonderful. It can be used in a way that can end up getting you to a new kind of legalism. Rich Birch — Yeah that’s a great insight. Very, very good insight there. You know, I’ve similarly I’ve struggled with this tension of um, we do want to be clear. And so lots of churches, we all have the like whatever the five things are. You know, these are the you know, get on a team, give, be in a small group, you know, attend services, bring a friend – something like that. And ah you know for years I’ve said that that is super reductionist, and is actually not that high of a bar. Like when I when I would look at what Jesus says he says you know, follow the narrow road. Erik Henry — Yes. Rich Birch — And like give it all up and follow me. I’m like that doesn’t sound easy. But we have to come up… There’s a tension there because we do want to we have to communicate something… Erik Henry — Right. Rich Birch — …that helps people take a next step… Erik Henry — Correct. Rich Birch — …but it it can be super reductionist. So let’s look under the hood a little bit on on questions that you’ve asked. So I’m going to ask you either extreme. On one side ah, question that you keep asking that you’re like we probably should stop asking that question because it’s it’s not helpful, like we’ve had the same answer for so long. It’s it’s not helpful. Erik Henry — Yeah. Rich Birch — Or what’s the one question that you don’t ask today that you’re tempted by your team. You’re like, oh maybe we should put this one in here. Do you have do you have anything on either side that that would kind of stretch our thinking a little bit? Erik Henry — Ah sure. Yeah I can give you the one like the first one where you you… Rich Birch — Yes. Erik Henry — …we asked a question for a little while that was that had to do with the fruit of the Spirit because we’re thinking okay maturity will produce fruit. Rich Birch — Yes. Erik Henry — So love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness – the whole thing. Um and so what we started doing was having people rate on a 0 to 5 how those fruit are being lived out in their lives. Again, this is a self-reporting thing, right? So this is self-reported feelings about the fruit in their life. And we did that over time and guess what? Nothing ever changed it. What what I what you… Rich Birch —Oh interesting. Erik Henry — What you found was that the it was just an average of how people feel about themselves in general, and that just doesn’t go anywhere. Rich Birch — Oh interesting. Erik Henry — And so it just turned out to be a a waste of time. Rich Birch — Right. One to cut off the list. Oh that’s good. That’s interesting. Anything on the other side that you’re tempted to be like, oh or or the one, or maybe another way to phrase that, is is there a team member that keeps hounding you that like we’ve got to do this. Like, you know, we’ve got to have this, you know, this question in that you’ve resisted, you know, is there’s anything on that end? Erik Henry — Yes. One of the thing that comes to mind is ah is marketing. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — So marketing is such a difficult thing to measure, the the effect of marketing. And so when we talk about marketing, we just desperately want ah data. And so we were like what about a question that is about how you were invited to church. Or what you used to invite someone to church. And the problem is it just changes so much. Rich Birch — Right right. Erik Henry — And and it’s different we have different strategies all the time. And so I know that there’s there are some people that would love for us to add some of those kind of questions. Um, but I just don’t, again, you just have to make the the call about what are you trying, what is the most important thing. Erik Henry — And we have, you know, I don’t know if if your your church or other churches you use KPIs – you know, key performance indicators, and and our goals. And so we have KPIs for our whole church. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — And so most of our questions are directed toward measuring our KPIs, not just whatever’s out there. But but what are the things that are most the key performance indicators for our church as a whole. What are those things, and we that’s what we use ah to to decide what questions we ask. Rich Birch — Love it. Um, when you ah survey—so you come up those to twice a year—what’s the tenor of the staff environment? Are people excited by this? Are they looking forward to it? Are they nervous? What do you do to ensure that, you know, that that your your team kind of is prepared and then buys in – what does all that look like? Erik Henry — Yeah, the plus is we got a fricking great staff culture. Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Erik Henry — I mean our staff culture is fantastic, and so everybody loves it. Rich Birch — Okay, great. Erik Henry — Nobody’s… I think there’s a little bit of of nervousness because this isn’t the only surveying we do. We actually do ah volunteer satisfaction surveys… Rich Birch — Okay, right. Yep. Erik Henry — twice a year as well. Um, part of the thing is you know you don’t know how volunteers are feeling about your staff because, again, they love them. And I always tell my staff I say listen, if you can’t make your volunteers like you, there’s a problem. You know what I’m saying?. Rich Birch — Sure sure. Erik Henry — Like if you can’t get a volunteer volunteer to say, hey I think that this staff member is great… Rich Birch — Yes, yeah. Erik Henry — …that’s like that’s the highest priority… Rich Birch — That’s base. Yep. Yes, yep. Erik Henry — …that’s bare minimum your volunteers better like you. Rich Birch — Yep, yep. Erik Henry — And so um and so I I do think there’s been a little bit of nervousness surrounding those. But we’ve now we’ve now just this year moved to a single volunteer satisfaction survey that goes to every for every staff member. It took us a while to come up with the questions, and I can share those too. Rich Birch — That would be great. We’ll take it. That’d be great. Erik Henry — Um, but you know, what what questions were would work across the board um, that would actually give us an understanding of how a staff member is doing, that kind of a thing. So. Rich Birch — Um, yeah because I’ve struggled. We’ve struggled, and so we have combined kind of both of these together into one. Erik Henry — Yeah, okay. Rich Birch — And um, have done that kind of, for lack of better word, customer satisfaction stuff and that has driven um decisions around staffing stuff. Erik Henry — Yes, absolutely. Rich Birch — And so we’ve tried to not like, hey friends like don’t freak out about this. It’s good. Again, it’s the same thing – there’s no bad information. There’s just information if we don’t like. But we’d rather know so that we can improve. And and there was a season—it’s not so much, you know, it’s not all the time—but there was a season where it was like that kind of freaked people out. They were like oh my goodness. What. Because people are worried. Erik Henry — Yeah, yes. Rich Birch — And I’m like well, you know, it’s it’s going to be… In in one way I kind of took that as a compliment because I was like okay that means that people are taking it serious and they realize we’re taking it serious. Erik Henry — Right. Rich Birch — We’re not just this isn’t just like here’s a bunch of random ideas, and like okay well we’ll go back to doing the things we did the way we did it before. So… Erik Henry — Exactly right. Rich Birch — Interesting. Are there any other surveys that you do that you might be kind of interested to kind of touch on? This has been a really helpful conversation. Erik Henry — Honestly I think we we try to keep it at that. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — Those are the two main things. Otherwise we’re we’re going to end up with a ton of… Oh, the other thing that will always happen is the lead pastor is always going to be like, hey we’re thinking about this decision, let’s do a survey. Let’s let’s do a survey. And so unless it is unbelievably important I push back on that. Rich Birch — Okay, and why is that? Why is that? That seems like a good use of that. Erik Henry — Right. Survey fatigue. Rich Birch — Okay. Erik Henry — I I want to make sure that we continually when we do them um… Oh the other thing I’ll say is that we we feel like we we have dropped the ball, and are going to are trying to do better at finding ways to release the information that people have given us. You know, they don’t want all of the details of every little thing. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — But to be able to say, hey thank you for taking this survey, here’s what we found out. Um, we have we’ve dropped the ball on that and this year we’re really trying to to turn that around. Rich Birch — Yeah, because people are more likely to give us information if we if they see, oh look they they… You know it’s like any conversation, it’s a conversation – you talked and now we’re responding. Erik Henry — Yep, exactly right. Rich Birch — We’re saying oh yeah, we heard you say this and here’s some changes. Well this has been just so good. What a rich conversation. And you know hope, friends, as you’re listening in, you’re catching a little bit. There’s a ton we could talk about here. Ah but super helpful. I appreciate you sending us those. We’ll have those links in the in the show notes. Anything else just as we’re kind of wrapping up today’s episode you could share or you’re thinking about, Erik? Erik Henry — Ah, yeah, like I love your the the unSeminary concept, the you know what do you wish… and I you know I was thinking about that as I prepared and I thought to myself you know what I really wish? I’m not a seminary graduate. Um I’m a math teacher; I’ve been in ministry since I was twenty years old. But um, but I I feel like the people who come out of bible college or seminary sometimes now don’t really understand the complexity of ministry. Rich Birch — That’s true. Erik Henry — That um, that it is so much more complex than we like to make it in a classroom. I mean the ah, part of the complexity comes because your your life becomes revolved around this ministry as a pastor, Executive Pastor, whatever you are, which also means all your friendships are part of this. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true. Erik Henry — And all of the people that you lead are are part are friends, and those dual relationships are so complex. So I have to lead this person who’s who’s also the person that is my friend, or my wife is best friends with his wife, and now I’ve got to I have to lead… Rich Birch — That’s so true. Erik Henry —…and and challenge and make decisions surrounding these things. It is just so much more… and you you have the relational side, but then you also on the other hand have what I call running the church machine. You know? Rich Birch — Yep. Erik Henry — As an executive pastor part of your job is to keep the machine running. Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Erik Henry — To make decisions that make sure that you have ah a future as a church. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Erik Henry — Um, and so but sometimes that is a tension with the relationships. And learning to live in the tension is one thing I really wish I had known earlier in my ministry, was basically first of all everything takes longer than you think it should. Rich Birch — True, that is very true. Erik Henry — Everything takes longer than you think it should. But if you do the right thing, I know that sounds so stupid, I know that sounds so obvious, but man the right thing is is sometimes a hard thing to find when you’re living in the tension between the relationships, the people that you love, the people who are mad, the people the ah the machine of the church that you are responsible for, it gets very very complicated. And you have to ask yourself which voices matter in that conversation. Rich Birch — Right. Erik Henry — What priorities matter in that conversation. And and in the middle of it, we can convince ourselves what we what what we think is right because it’s easier. Or other people can help us help convince us of what we should do. But there is this thing I find more often than not, that if I quiet myself I can normally find what’s right. And if I just am willing to do the right thing and give it time to work itself out, everything does. Rich Birch — Yeah it’s so good. Well and there’s so much, particularly I find in our roles as Executive Pastors, there’s there’s a lot of decisions that we make that are um, they do get at the the very core of why do we exist as an organization. Um and they’re really important but they’re not necessarily seen. They’re like, you know, they’re kind of like secondary or they’re behind the scenes… Erik Henry — Yes. Rich Birch — …or they’re… but but man, if we if we cut the corners there, if we um and you know there’s extreme examples of that, obviously, where organizations get into fraud and all kinds of super, you know, bad stuff. Erik Henry — Right. Rich Birch — But you know you’re not ah nobody listening in is doing that. But we can make other compromising decisions that aren’t the right decision that aren’t the right thing that aren’t pushing us towards the kind of church God wants us to to be. And yeah, that’s just a really good word. I really appreciate that, Erik. Rich Birch — This has been a fantastic conversation. I thank you so much for being on today. If people want to track with you, track with the church, where do we want to send them online? And friends I would encourage you to do, this is a fantastic church; Erik’s a great leader. Where where do we want to send them online? Erik Henry — We’re at centralwired.com and and then we got all the you know Facebook, Instagram, all those other things too. Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Erik Henry — But um, in general that’s that’s kind of the place to catch us. Rich Birch — Love it.Thanks so much, Erik. I appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you so much. Erik Henry — Thank you – really appreciate it, Rich.