unSeminary Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Scott Landry, Senior Pastor of The Bridge in Ontario. Scott first joined the church in 2013 as a worship and student pastor before later stepping into the senior pastor role. Is your leadership marked by hidden wounds? Do you struggle with vulnerability in your ministry? Are you fighting the wrong battles—externally and internally? Scott recently released his first book, The Fight, a raw, deeply reflective look at the internal battles that shape our lives. Tune in as Scott’s story of redemption after hitting rock bottom offers an honest, hopeful picture of what it looks like to stop hiding, confront the truth, and let God rebuild what was lost. Honesty after years of hiding. // After ten years as a “professional Christian”, hiding behind his seminary degree, thriving ministry, external success, Scott’s internal life was crumbling. His marriage ended, his relationship with his daughter was severed, his ministry collapsed, and he hit emotional and spiritual rock bottom. That collapse became the catalyst for transformation—choosing vulnerability and refusing to fake spiritual health. Sharing scars, not open wounds. // Leadership requires discernment about transparency. Scott embraces the principle: share your scars, not your wounds. There is a kind of vulnerability that belongs with counselors, trusted friends, and Jesus alone—and another kind that can help others heal. For Scott, his book, The Fight, became a way to share healed places that might help protect others from making the same mistakes he had. Vulnerability isn’t weakness; rather, it’s a gift. The act of going first as a leader gives others the courage to do the same. Fighting the right battles. // One of the dangers we face is fighting the wrong battles. Scott uses the story of David and Eliab to illustrate how church leaders often get pulled into conflict—criticism, social media arguments, internal comparison—and miss the “Goliath” right in front of them. We often fight against the people we are supposed to fight for, especially in ministry. Learning to focus on the right fights is essential for healing. The breaking point—and the voice of God. // One of the most powerful moments in his journey is when Scott found himself alone, isolated, and furious at God. In an explosive moment of honesty, he shouted, “I don’t even believe in You anymore!” And then he sensed God say: “Then who are you yelling at?” That moment shattered his illusions. His anger, he realized, was evidence of God’s presence. God had been waiting for Scott at the place of his deepest anger—the place he had avoided his entire life. Pain as preparation. // Drawing from Joshua’s story and the painful preparation before Israel entered the Promised Land, Scott argues that discomfort often precedes destiny. The battles we face now equip us for battles ahead. Instead of asking God to end the fight, ask God to form you through it. Scott’s leadership has since been shaped around embracing discomfort—having hard conversations early, sitting with difficult emotions, and obeying God before understanding. Obedience in writing the book. // Writing The Fight began as an act of pure obedience. Scott resisted God’s nudge for a year, until finally acknowledging that he couldn’t ask God to bless one area of his life while disobeying Him in another. Once he opened a blank document, the first draft poured out in just three days. The writing became a healing process—one he initially believed was meant only for his children. The surprise has been how deeply his congregation has embraced his honesty and resonated with his story. Visit www.bridgechurches.ca to learn more about The Bridge, and pick up Scott’s book ,The Fight, on Amazon. To connect with Scott, find him on Instagram at @scottmlandry. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don’t need more pressure—you need support. That’s why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn’t stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It’s like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You are going to be rewarded today. We’ve got a great conversation lined up. I have my friend Scott Landry with us. He is the lead pastor at a fantastic church called The Bridge in or just outside of Ottawa, Ontario. Rich Birch — He joined the team in 2013 as the pastor of worship and student ministry and now serves as the senior pastor. Just being totally honest, friends, Scott and I are friends in real life. So it’s, these are actually, I find some of the funnier conversations because it’s like this weird conceit of like, we’ve got microphones between us and all of that. So, but Scott, welcome. So glad you’re here today.Scott Landry — Honored to be here with you, and better yet to be your friend.Rich Birch — This is going to be good. This is I’m really look looking forward to today’s conversation. So, um ah dear listener, I’m just going to pull back the the curtain. I really want you to listen in. Scott is an incredible leader and is doing, there’s lots of different things we could talk about, the way you’re using his his leadership and the church is growing and making an impact. And he’s got a bunch of platinum problems that he’s trying to figure out. And you know, where to get space and all that. But, but actually is none of that I want to talk about today. Actually, earlier this year, Scott released and a book. He wrote a book called “The Fight”. And what we’re going to talk about today is a little bit of the content, what it’s about and what led him to that process. And and then about ah the impact on ah his church. And I really want you to listen to in friends, think there’s a lot we can we can take out of this. Rich Birch — Why don’t you, how do you describe the book? When you, someone says like, oh, you wrote a book? What’s that on? I’d love to hear that. I’ve read the book, friends, so you just so you know.Scott Landry — Yeah, um it’s honestly somewhat of an autobiography, but it’s also a personal therapy session that’s on paper. It’s a little bit of biblical perspective in light of those things. And then I think hopefully pointing people who might read it to some level of personal insight or maybe personal application to both, both my story and also more importantly, the scriptural kind of you know, underlying and all of it.Scott Landry — So yeah, it’s not a self-help book, but I think it’s a self-reflective book. Rich Birch — That’s good. Scott Landry — And kind of hoping that people, yeah, hoping that people might see their story in the midst of mine. And and what what are the things that connect or are kind of similar threads through everybody’s story. And, uh, and, and it was, it it was, it was the cheapest version of therapy I could come up with, really. It was a lot of just kind of looking at my life and trying to make sense of it and and trying to find, find words for feelings I didn’t even know I felt. And, uh, yeah. And so just kind of putting it all out there for myself and also, for my kids and then, you know, the, the, you and the three other people that might read it. So it’s great.Rich Birch — Ah, and that’s not true. A lot more people than that have read it. At the core of this book, and we’ll get into this, friends, but at the core of this book, I would say it’s a high level of transparency. Like you are, you know, you let people in on, hey, here’s some stuff that I’ve been wrestling with, you know, over these years.Rich Birch — And I think most pastors think they should be transparent. That always hasn’t been the case. I’ve been in ministry long enough that there was a time where I think people actually wanted religious leaders who seemed perfect and were like… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …they’re these like, they’ve got their whole life together. That’s not the case anymore. People are looking for, and I think leaders want to be transparent. We want we want to kind of be honest with people. But the stakes sometimes feel higher for some reason. So what kind of led you to the place where you’re like, hey, I want to be vulnerable in a way, ah in written form, with your people, with the community around you?Scott Landry — Yeah, that’s a great question. Honestly, I think it was the fact that I hadn’t been authentic and vulnerable for too long and then lost everything because of it. You know, obviously I write in the book about my journey. I was a pastor for 10 years. I had a a seminary degree and didn’t have an unSeminary one, but I had the degree on the wall and I had, you know, the…Rich Birch — The real one, the real one.Scott Landry — They’re the real one. Yeah. And, uh, but I had all of that. I had 10 years of, of experience standing on stages and preaching the gospel and sharing who Jesus was. And, but the truth is I never really bought what I’d been selling, like in a personal, intimate way. And I wouldn’t say I was good at selling it, but I, but certainly, you know, had been doing it long enough, and and and and in some ways had been successful doing that. like Like good things were happening, ministry was growing, you know people were excited. And so then there becomes this like, oh, well, the lie, it’s amazing the lies that we can tell ourselves and the things that we can convince ourselves of. Scott Landry — So as a professional Christian for 10 years, you know, talking about but all these things and then my own life being a complete mess. And so as a leader, I’m sure other leaders that are listening to this can relate like I’m a dreamer. I always have been, always will be. But I was living a nightmare. And and for I was I had actually become a villain in my own story.Scott Landry — And and and I lost everything. A marriage fell apart. A relationship with my daughter, it was was severed at a very young age. She was four. Ministry was over. Like it was it was all done in an instant. And so 10 years of of hiding and not being, not authentic just for the people, but to my own self. And so when God resurrected my life and resurrected ministry, which I never thought was gonna happen, I was like, that that can’t ever happen again.Scott Landry — And so I wanted to kind of be someone who would lead by going first and saying, you know, and, and so I’ve been vulnerable and transparent from the pulpit. But this was something else. And, and I still am not sure why God prompted me to do this, but, but I would say, I never, I never want to go back to hiding. Scott Landry — And I think, I think we hide for a lot of reasons. I think there’s pastors or leaders listening to this. We hide, ultimately, I think we can give all the excuses we want, but it’s like, who you going to tell? Who you and what are you going to tell them? And and the minute you do, it’s like, well, then I’m going to be disqualified. I’m going to lose my job. Like, so it’s like, we kind of do this thing where I think I shared with you before. It’s like, I’m going to, we we almost force ourselves into a corner and convince ourselves we’re going to fake it till we make it. And ultimately what ends up happening is we fake it till we’re found out. Scott Landry — And and that’s, I mean, we’ve we’ve heard so many stories of that. And I was just like, that happened to me and I would hate for it to happen to anyone else. And I certainly am not going to let it happen to me again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I, friends, you can see why I’ve had Scott on today. There’s a lot here to, I think that all of us need to wrestle with. In fact, one of the, when I didn’t, didn’t even told you this, this is one of the the things I was, when I was reading it, um I had a mentor, a guy I worked for earlier in my career who his life has spectacularly failed. He had to has one of these situations that’s just blown up, and ministry’s blown up and all that. Rich Birch — And ironically, I find there’s ah multiple things about his leadership that I carry with me. And one of the things that I remember him saying very early on was he was like, there’s this interesting dance we do as leaders where we let people in. We know we have to let people into our, into our story, but we only let them in far enough. Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — We only let them in some, to something. And you’re always going to draw that line somewhere. The question is, where do you draw that line? And, um you know, you’ve chosen to to be very open and say, hey, this is my experience. This is who I’ve been here. And you kind of cast it in the book, not kind of, it’s literally called “The Fight”. You cast it in the book as an internal fight, the stuff beneath the service that shapes ultimately who we become. How do you discern, where are you drawing that line? How much are we able to, how transparent can we really be?Scott Landry — Yeah. That’s a great question. I think for me, it’s a few things. I’m not sure who said it. Um, but I, I, I’ve heard it said multiple different ways, but like, you know, you share your scars, not your wounds. So I’ve kind of, I think there’s a lot of truth to that. So for me, it’s like, if I’m still bleeding, that’s for therapy. That’s for trusted friends. That’s for my wife. That’s for Jesus.Scott Landry — But if it’s a wound that has, that is healed, and somebody can see their story in it and it’s helpful for them as either they’re still bleeding or or it could prevent them from getting hurt, then to me it’s worth sharing. Scott Landry — I’ve kind of come to the conclusion in my life, vulnerability isn’t weakness. it it’ it’s It’s actually it’s actually a gift. It’s there there is something to vulnerability in sitting with someone. You and I have done this without microphones in front of us. And we’ve we’ve told things to each other with tears in our eyes. And there’s something powerful that happens. That is a gift that you give someone. And it’s a gift for for what you give them and what you share to them.Scott Landry — But it’s also the gift to them that’s like this could, I could actually do this myself. It’s freeing for me to be given this gift to know it might not be with you, but with someone I could do that too. And, and that gift, I don’t think we truly understand how freeing and the weight that could be lifted by going first in that way. So for me, I’ve just decided that’s that’s who I’m going to be moving forward. So that the book is “The Fight” and because life is a fight. And to me, vulnerability and authenticity are worth fighting for.Rich Birch — I’d love to dig into some of the some of the stuff that you actually talk about in the book, kind of dig a couple layers deeper. You write about the danger of fighting the wrong battles that we can find ourselves in conversations that we we shouldn’t be in. You know, pulling out this… talk us through that. How does that relate? How have you seen that in your life?Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — And then what is that? How do you lead differently out of that? Because, you know, how do we pick the right battles? Talk me through that.Scott Landry — Yeah, I think it’s a personal thing. It certainly applies to leadership as well on a personal level. I think many times we fight, we fight with the people we’re supposed to fight for.Scott Landry — I think we fight amongst family members and, and then, you know, times goes by and you’re like, was that even worth it? I think, so I think those things happen. It’s like, how many fights have you had with your spouse? And it’s like I’m supposed to be fighting with you, not against you. Like we’re supposed to be in this together. And I’ve seen that happen in leadership too. It’s amazing to me how church people can, can hurt each other and and fight with each other and over things like carpet and and song selections and song volume and and preaching styles.Scott Landry — And so for me in leadership, it’s fighting the wrong battles. I talk about it, the David and Eliab thing, and you know, on the, on the battlefield where Goliath is kind of waiting in the wings and it’s really the main event. And, so much could have been so different if David had wasted his time in that argument. And, and he would have been justified in doing it. I mean, his, his character was being questioned. I mean, that’s worth fighting against. And it’s like, David’s like, I don’t get time for this, right? And I think how many of us as leaders spend so much time in the comment section, we’re fighting critics and we’re missing out on the giants. Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Landry — You know, you, you, like that that in our culture, I think, is a huge one for leaders. And it’s like…Rich Birch — Yeah, big deal.Scott Landry — …oh, we’re so…And and I’m I’m guilty of that. You know we’re the other one I struggle with, I’m sure no one listening to this could can relate to this, but I spend so I spend so much time spending energy on who’s left, and not who’s here or who could be coming. And it’s like, and and you know what? Many times the people who’ve left, they were never really here anyway. Now that’s not to say we haven’t done something wrong at times and hurt people, but it’s like, man, I’ve I’ve spent so much time trying to convince that one person. Cause I’m like, oh, Jesus would leave the 99 to go after the one. And I’m like, maybe not that one. No, I’m just kidding.Rich Birch — That’s good. I like that.Scott Landry — But you know what I mean? Like but…Rich Birch — Yes.Scott Landry — …but we do. And and it’s it’s tragic how how distracted we can become. And and we we miss out in the fights that matter most because of ones that weren’t worth fighting to begin with.Rich Birch — Well, and this this is why we’ve seen a lot of pastors make the decision, church leaders make the decision, like, I just need to step back from social media. Because it’s like, you know, it’s like it’s like it’s set up for us to pick fights with other church leaders. Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — Like, it’s like, you know, that people are out there and there’s and there seems like there are for whatever reason, there are ah brothers and sisters in the faith who, who think that it’s their job to agitate, like that they’re like the professional agitators out there. And it’s like, so then we’re fighting with some other pastor or whatever, but that’s not, that’s like a total distraction from our mission. Like this, who, that person’s going to Jesus is going to be fine. Like, what about, like you say, the people that aren’t here yet. Rich Birch — There’s a moment in the book where you describe kind of being hitting a rock bottom or hitting an emotional bottom and crying out to God. Would you mind opening up a little bit about that? What did that teach you?Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, what God meets us when, when all our strength runs out.Scott Landry — Well, yeah, that the, I mean, that I hope that’s a powerful moment in the book because it was it genuinely the most powerful moment in my life. And this was this was kind of at the crescendo of my my breaking point. So after after, you know, my my marriage and my my my life specifically falling apart. And I kind of lived in a place of isolation. I was living in, in, in, in the North, Canadian North. And, I was, yeah, I was lost. I was, I was angry. Like I had so much anger. And it was, so yeah, I talk about in the book. And, and, uh, I was angry and ultimately I was angry at myself, but I was also angry at God.Scott Landry — And, um, because even after, again, making a mess of my own life. Like He didn’t make a mess of my life. Nobody made the mess of my life. I made the mess of my life. And, but then after that, I was trying to do everything right. And I was trying to, you know, do the right thing, do the right thing. And I was like, God, when are you going to start intervening on my behalf. And so, you know, being the the preacher that I am, I was like, I got all the Bible verses that tell me that you’re going to like now is you’re going to do the redemptive thing. You’re going to show up, you’re going to move, you’re going to fix, you’re going to redeem, you’re going to restore, you’re going to repair, you’re going to do all the R words. And, and nothing was happening. Like it was like… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — …and, and it was almost as if I, heard and I literally heard nothing. And I’d like to say I didn’t feel anything, but I did. It was just this, this anger that was welling up inside of me, like a, like a pot boiling. And eventually it just, I just became unhinged. Like I was alone. And I was completely isolated. I was in this, you know, empty house and I just started crying out like, and yelling out. And I threw, I threw things. I used words I’ve, I’m ashamed to admit I used. Like, I mean, I was as unhinged as could possibly, I was like, I gotta, if I saw you face to face, I would give you the thing. Like I told him all this stuff.Scott Landry — And, and what I found in that moment was like, and again, I talk about it in the book, but like I yelled, God, I don’t even believe in you anymore. I’m done. Like, like I don’t I don’t believe. You’ve promised me that you would never leave me. You would never forsake me. And that’s exactly what you’ve done. I’ve told people that you would never leave them and forsake them. And yet you’ve done that to me. You are you are dead to me. I don’t believe in you anymore. And I even now, I still feel this when I’m just talking about it. But like, this is, and this is, I know some people are going to roll their eyes at this. But like, genuinely, when I heard myself say that, I felt this like, over me, over my house. It was like this eerie like pause. And I heard, as if I’ve ever heard the voice of God, I heard a voice say, well, then who are you yelling at? And it was like this, like… Rich Birch — Beautiful. Scott Landry — …and in that moment, it was like, my anger was, it wasn’t my degree. It wasn’t my Bible. It was, it was my anger was my evidence that God was present right then and right there. And because my anger was directed at him. And he knew that I was angry with him.Scott Landry — And he met me at the place of my anger. And he was waiting. And this is the part that I still, I can’t do this, what’s what’s in my head, into my heart justice. But it was God was saying, I’ve been waiting for you at this place your whole life.Rich Birch — Wow. Right.Scott Landry — You have been hiding from this anger from your childhood, from your young adulthood, and I’ve been waiting for you to meet me here at your anger. And I’ve I’ve wanted you to know that I would be here waiting for you. And if you met me on the top of the tallest mountain, and if you look me face to face, and if you were to give me the finger, you would find me there waiting because I am waiting at who you really are, not who you’re pretending to be.Scott Landry — And everyone around you, you’ve got them fooled and you’re used car salesman and you can spin the Bible verses and you can do all that other stuff. But I know who you really are. And I’m waiting for you to finally be honest with yourself about who you really are. And now that you finally are, now we can do something about that together.Scott Landry — And that was the moment that God truly revealed himself to me. And that’s when I, for the first time in my life, truly discovered who I was. And yeah, that that’s the moment that I hope anybody who ever meets me or talks to me or listens to me or reads in it, like that’s the part that I long for people to have before it costs them like it costs me.Rich Birch — I just want to say thank you for for going there and talking about that. Because to me, that…and friends, you should pick up a copy of the book. I’m not trying to sell the book, but you should pick up a copy and actually…it’s worth it for this interaction. Because I think as pastors, people who are in what we do, I think we can give, we can put a varnish on all of this. And it and and I love that picture of you yelling at God. And then and then he’s like, well who are you yelling at? Like, what’s, what’s you you know…Scott Landry — Yeah. You don’t believe it. You don’t believe in me, but you’re yelling at me. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.Rich Birch — Yes. Like, I think, I think that is such a, I don’t know, there’s so much there. And I think it’s beautiful that you would open up about that and tell, talk to us here. I feel a little bit bad because I feel like I’m getting you to mine out like one of the best parts of the book, but that, um, at its core, I think would be hard for a lot of leaders to even admit to say, because by this point, friends, again, remember the pre-story, you had been a professional Christian for a long time. Like that that you had built your life around taking money from people… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and doing this and came to that moment of crisis. So talk to me about the road back from there. So there’s obviously, you know, between there and today, you know, something happened. So talk us through… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …kind of what were some of those key steps? We’re not going to be able to cover all of it, but some of those key things that, that God used on that journey.Scott Landry — Yeah. Well, the immediate one was that I needed to get away. I was living in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories at the time, and I needed to get to Ontario because that’s where my four-year-old daughter was. And that necessity was kind of the you know the spark of of God beginning a redemptive work in my life.Scott Landry — And and then again, had never thought that I would be back in you know ministry in terms of you know a job or a career. I I I and iI wasn’t I had no idea what I was gonna do. And so I just did what I had to do to survive.Scott Landry — And, and, and again, God just, it’s the, it’s, it’s all this cliches. It’s all the songs we sing. It’s, you know, he made beauty for ashes. He, he resurrected things I was certain was dead. And so, and, and there were, he was orchestrating things to, to, you know, provide another way for me to get back into what he called me to do, which, you know, again, I, I, it would take me a long time to, to get into it. Rich Birch — Yes. Scott Landry — But I, again, I think it was just, it was, I just took the steps I had to take because I, and, but they were the steps that he was preparing for me to take, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Scott Landry — It’s and I, and I see that now, but it didn’t, it just felt like, like necessity then. But it was more than necessity. It was, it was intention. So, yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, I don’t I don’t know if I’ve said this to you, but I think, in fact, I’m pretty sure I haven’t said this to you. One of the, you know, I mentioned, and and you know the person I’m talking about whose life fell apart. You know, one of my own reflections on that experience as a leader that was in that person’s orbit, pretty close to that orbit, in hindsight, um was we have to do a better, the collective we have to do a better job on helping people to talk about what’s going on on the inside in a way that doesn’t just immediately jump to, hey, like, you you know, you should not think that thought. Like, you know, we we need to be better at that. And I you think you’ve done a gift in this, you know, this with this book. Rich Birch — One of the things you also talked about is this whole idea that comfort can be the enemy of our calling. And I wish you didn’t write about this, but because, ah you know, it’s like convenience is and comfort are organizing principles of culture, right? That is like our entire culture is based around how do I make myself more comfortable? And and it’s true. I agree. Like I’m, you know, I’ve been on the Peloton and I’ve felt discomfortable. And then at the end of that, I’m like, I’m glad I did that in the middle of it. I was hating it. I get that. Talk us through that. What’s that journey been like in this kind of return home? How has that played a, you know, a part of that as a part of the journey?Scott Landry — Yeah, I think I think what I’ve learned is pain is always preparation. And and to me, I use the word always because I don’t see it never being that. I think there’s always something in in in a situation of discomfort or pain that is always preparing you for something that’s next for you or something that’s next for someone else that’s going to require you to be a part of it.Scott Landry — So the pain that I go through a lot of times is is you know preparing my my son or my daughter. Um, and so it’s always preparation for something. And that’s what I write about in the book, the story of Joshua, you know, it’s, it’s the most uncomfortable thought in the world that, you know, the, the, before their greatest battle, they, they’re circumcised, as, as men. And it’s like, oh, you know, that’s, that’s one conversation when the kid’s like a couple days old or eight days old as it was supposed to be. But when you’re, you know, 18, 20, that’s a whole different conversation.Scott Landry — And, Any guy that’s listening right now feels uncomfortable, but that’s, but that’s the point. God brought them to a place specifically to bring pain into their lives because of the destiny that he had for them.Scott Landry — And I think that’s just true in life, you know, it’s, and, and, and going through those things is crucial. It’s always, there’s always something next. And I think that’s the thing that I’ve, and again, I use the analogy of the fight and I tried to do that in the book because I, you know, I’m not a fighter in terms of like, I don’t do, you know, mixed martial arts or anything. I love that stuff and I love watching it. And I love boxing, which the the movie Rocky was part of the inspiration for the book or at least the theme of it.Scott Landry — And I think when you look like look at that stuff, what you always see is fighters fight a fight, so they can fight another fight. It’s like, I want to win this fight because I want to win this fight, but winning this fight sets me up for another fight that has greater reward for me.Scott Landry — And so I’m I’m inspired to win this fight because it’s going to put me or it’s going to allow me to fight on another level and another dimension. And I think, you know, in leadership, I think the challenges or the platinum problems, as you call them, you know, I think those are preparation. They’re not just to solve and the problem itself to be solved. It’s also preparation for a problem that’s coming because of getting through this one.Scott Landry — And I think when we start to see it that way and we can view the fight as like, I always pray that God will cause the fight to end. Like, God, just, just stop. Like, get me through this fight. Instead of praying, God, will you help me become the person in the midst of this fight that I need to be for the fight that’s coming down the road? It, that perspective, I think changes everything.Scott Landry — And if as leaders, we looked at our current challenges and struggles as like, hey, this is just preparation for something bigger. I think we’d i think we’d go into it a whole lot differently. And I think we would be willing to endure it just and with a different mindset. And so, yeah, that’s that’s what I’ve I’ve come to discover my own life through this thing.Rich Birch — Like our friend T.D. Jakes said, every level, a new devil. Like it’s like, right?Scott Landry — Yeah, yeah, totally.Rich Birch — This idea of like, hey, we’re going to get through this, but then that’s just going to open up something else that we got to get through. And I think that’s, I think it’s a great metaphor and is, I see too many people who are, and it could be, you know, people of my age or whatever.Rich Birch — I must, you know, you reach a certain age with enough zeros on the end. You hit a couple of those zero birthdays. And then you look around at your friends and you’re like, the people that, that don’t inspire me are the ones that are hitting the coast mode. Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — That are like, Hey, I’m going to try to, i’m going to try to make life more comfortable. It’s the people that are saying, no, let’s lean in. Let’s look, what can we do next? What is the thing that God’s got for us? I love that. Well…Scott Landry — Well, I tell people, oh, sorry, I was just going to say just…Rich Birch — Go ahead. No, go ahead.Scott Landry — …well, just to to kind of follow up on that. I think practically, what does that mean? Or what does that look like for us? Like, I you know, we talk to our staff all the time, right? I, you know, constantly tell them it’s like, to embrace that means in leadership, you’ve got to have uncomfortable conversations now because you’re going to have them anyway. Rich Birch — Right.Scott Landry — So comfort tells us, oh, like if I just let it go or if I just like, no, you’re you’re just prolonging the inevitable conversation. So have it now. Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Landry — You know, or or you sit with emotions that you’re feeling. You got to sit with them a little longer before you act on them. That’s not comfortable. We want to just, you know, so it’s that balance. Like it’s, It’s, ah you know, even obeying before understanding, right?Scott Landry — Like, like you’ve got like all those lessons and those places of discomfort, I think are all preparation pieces for the greater thing. So…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah. And even in the physical world, like I was thinking about this when I was on my Peloton prepping for this. And I know you have Peloton, that like there was a time when there would be numbers on the screen in front of me that those numbers felt like death. Like I’m like, this is not like, I can’t keep doing this. But then what happens over time is you, your body acclimatizes to that, right? You become healthier. You get your cardiovascular system, your VO2 max grows, and then you’re able to, ah you know, to carry more. And I think that is true in leadership. I think that’s true in our spiritual life. I think there is like a, you know, kind of bearing on the weight of it. And um yeah, I think that’s very true. Rich Birch — Okay. I’d love to pivot in a totally different direction. So, you know, again, friends, you should pick up a copy of the book because I think it’ll be great. It’s spiritually enriching experience for you. I think this book could be helpful in like, there’s lots of conversations where I’m like, I think, I think this could be one of those books you have on your shelf. And you said, Hey, you know what, why don’t you read this book? This might help you think through, you know, might be a real encouragement. So I will, we’ll get to where you can get that in a minute. Rich Birch —But I want to kind of talk more about kind of the meta experience of you as a pastor, writing a book, choosing to do that. When you first introduced me to this idea, I still remembered it. You were like, I do not want to write a book. I am writing a book. Like, and it was like this, I am compelled. It is by obedience that I am, who knows? I think literally the thing you said to me the first time, and it was through tears, was like, I’m not really even sure why like I’m doing this thing, who knows? So talk to me about that obedience. What did that first step look like? Kind of help me ah or understand the process. Talk about that a little bit.Scott Landry — Yeah, it’s funny. You did a great version of me there. That’s exactly how I said it. And that’s exactly how I felt. And I honestly, I still feel that way, even now that it’s out there in in the world. Yeah, it was totally an act of of obedience. Scott Landry — And so for context, two years ago, my family vacations in Florida. I, I have no shame. I mooch off my in-laws who have a condo there. My wife and I both lived there at one, at one point. So it’s kind of like going home. Scott Landry — But anyway, long story, I was running on the beach. And, and I just, I felt like the Lord just stopped me and he gave me two very clear directives for the next chapter of my life. One was about the church and the other was to write a book.Scott Landry — And the first one made complete sense to me. And the other one still makes absolutely no sense to me. I am not an, writer. I’m not an author. I’m not ah like, and who am I? Like all this kind of, you know, who am I syndrome started kicking in and and I was just like, whatever. So I came back two years ago and I got to work on the first one and ignored the second one.Scott Landry — And I ignored the second one, writing a book for an entire year. And then on my birthday in September, I just, I felt like I was, I was genuinely like, how can I ask God to bless this first thing that he’s asked me to do if I’m being disobedient in this other thing that he’s asked me to do? And I, I don’t understand it. So to me, I’m, that justifies why I’m not doing it. And I was like, I’ve got to be obedient to this, whether I understand it or not. So that’s what I did. And so for me, obedience was opening a blank document. And just starting. And that’s what I did.Scott Landry — And it was, and I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, Rich, but it was amazing to me. I’ve had writer’s block for sermons. This poured out of me… Rich Birch — Wow. Scott Landry — …in a way I was not expecting. Like it it was the draft that you read of the book or the first draft of the book was done in a little over three days.Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Landry — It just…Rich Birch — Well, that surprised me even, you know, cause I remember you were, and that hasn’t been my experience with writing. It’s been like, I have found it like arduous. But I remember you’re like, Oh, I’m going away. I’m going to this thing. And then it was like, Oh yeah, I got it done. And I was like, wow. Like that’s, that’s incredible. That’s amazing. And then obviously then there’s all the editing and you got to actually get it.Scott Landry — Well, yeah, I, yeah, everything after that was way longer than I or wanted it to be um um for sure.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Scott Landry — And way more than I expected it to be. But I think, I think I needed to me, to me, it was a piece of, it was a document that was basically like a therapy session that didn’t cost me anything other than time…Rich Birch — Right. Right.Scott Landry — …that I needed to get a lot of stuff off my chest and and off my heart. And it just, I needed to open that document to do it. And I think maybe that is, and it didn’t occur to me until just now, that that may be the very reason that God wanted me to do it… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — …was to free me of that so I could be released to do whatever has nothing about to do about the book. It just was his way of getting me to get through it.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I remember at one point, um hopefully I’m not outing something. We can cut this if you don’t want me to say this, but I remember at one point you were saying like, even if I just have it for my daughter, that would be a gift, right?Rich Birch — Like it’s like for her at some point to read this would be, um you know, a gift. Actually, I know a friend of mine who has literally done that has written full books and literally got like got them printed and given it just to them for their kids.Scott Landry — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, tens of thousands of words. So yeah, that’s, that’s, ah that’s incredible. So, you know, the writing of books in general, is I find the line between writing and thinking is very blurry. Like it’s like, it’s like almost in my mind, like it’s kind of the same thing. Like it’s the same activity. There’s obviously writing involved, but it’s like, it’s, it costs, it’s a, or it, it drives a lot of reflection, honesty, you know, thinking about all that stuff. Was there anything as you went through this therapy process of writing that actually just surprised you about like, Oh wow. Like that was either my reflection on that was different or, um, you know, we’re, you know, like anything surprised you through the process process?Scott Landry — Yeah, there was a…good question. There was a couple things for sure. One of them was I had to go check. It’s amazing how your memory can be your greatest enemy. I remembered certain things a certain way and then going back and talking to my mother. Again, spoiler alert – I grew up in a single parent household. My mom is my hero, strongest woman ever.Scott Landry — Anyways, and I write about her and, and my life growing up and what she had to do to get us through. So, so going back and, and, and really at as an adult, getting the details of what actually happened and what my perception of what happened happened. It was it was It was much worse than I understood…Rich Birch — Oh, wow.Scott Landry — …and what she endured and went through. And I gained a level of admiration from my, I thought I admired her, but I gained a level of admiration that is a gift. And, and, and every child should have the gift to see their parents the way that I see my mom. She is, she is amazing. Scott Landry — So that, that’s one. The other one was, was I there was some things that I, I learned along the way. I think the first one was that I found was about the, the resentment that I had towards my father. And I, and, and I, as I was writing it, God just kind of revealed this to me that, that adapting, adapting to loss is different than than winning a fight. And I had adapted to the pain of what I had lost. And I thought that was the same thing as winning that fight against resentment. And they’re not the same thing. Scott Landry — And that was that that was a real breakthrough moment for me. I was in a cabin near a ski hill as I was writing that. And it was like i was almost like I was watching a movie, watching myself have a moment. Rich Birch — Wow. Scott Landry — And it was just this this really beautiful moment between God and I. And I was just like, wow, God, thank you for for showing that to me. And then, give me the words to articulate this to my kids. Cause you’re right. I, I did first and foremost, write this for my kids, Emma and Parker. And I wanted them to know, you know, who they come from, what they come from. And, and, and hopefully if I never get the chance to tell them, they’ve got this to fall back on. And then my wife being my wife was like, well, if you’re going to do it for them, you might as well go all the way. So, so that’s, that’s, that’s what we did.Rich Birch — Wow. Okay. So what did this process teach you as you’ve now, cause you’ve launched this book, it’s out in the world. You’ve, you can get it on Amazon. You, you know, it’s, you’ve done a series at the church. You’ve talked about it. You know, if you’ve been public about it. Rich Birch — What did the launching of that teach you about your congregation, about your church? What resonated? What, how, how was it helpful? Any conversations that sparked kind of what was the impact that you’ve, now that you’ve landed this in, in your church?Scott Landry — Yeah. Oh, I just got emotional there thinking about your question as you’re asking it. I think… what I talk about in the book, Rich, is that I’m a very insecure person. And and as a leader, I’m an insecure leader. And always, you know, that that dance between, you know, being authentic about who you are at the same time, the insecurity about that. And it’s, Lisa, my wife tells me all the time, if people knew how insecure you are, they they wouldn’t believe it, because you don’t present that way.Scott Landry — But I was very insecure about doing this thing and the people that I serve, and and and journey together with seeing me in a way that they might change their mind about me. But the people at The Bridge, they love me, and they are so gracious to me. And I what I’ve discovered is that me being honest about who I am is is who they’ve wanted me to be the whole time.Scott Landry — And so everybody that’s read the book, I shouldn’t say everybody, but I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from the people at The Bridge just thanking me for telling my story and then them saying so much of that I relate to, so much of that I needed right now telling me things about themselves that I had no idea was happening in their lives. And this has only been out for like a month. Scott Landry — And so I’ve just gotten overwhelmed with, with people’s responses. And, and I think for our church, you know, one of our values is authentic storytelling And so, um, it just so happens that as a leader, you get to go first Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — And, and, and and in order for that value to be more than something that’s just plastered on a wall or a website, like I had, I didn’t know it was going to be in in the form of a book. But I do see that, that people are opening up in ways that, you know, just in the, in the in the last month to me and in others. So, yeah, but that that’s the thing that that i’ve I’ve seen in our church is just um that that I’ve been insecure about how I’m seen as a leader and and they’ve shown me that that they love me. And that’s the greatest gift, I’m telling you.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool, man. I love that. That’s, and thanks for being vulnerable in your sharing there. Like I think I, you know, I think there is anyone that’s written has had a book definitely has those feelings on the inside of like, oh man, this was a bad idea like why am I doing this. And like I’m you know, the stuff I’ve written about is nowhere near as, you know, personal and tender as what you’ve written. And I can identify exactly with what you’re saying there around the like, what will people think of me? You know, and it’s amazing. Rich Birch — So trying to extract a bit of, you know, there might be people that are listening and I hope there’s people that are listening in who would think like, maybe I should write a book. Or maybe, maybe they had a similar experience where God told them to write a book and they’ve been dragging their feet. Scott Landry — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — What would be a couple kind of just practical takeaways, like maybe things you would say, I wish I would have known this before timelines, collaboration, editing, any of that kind of stuff.Scott Landry — Yeah. Well, the first thing I would do is thankfully what I did, was talk to people who have done it. So you were one of those people and I was hoping that you were going to convince me not to do it. Thanks thanks for letting me down. But yeah, just like, and, and, you know, it’s like, Hey, talk to a few different people and, and, and, you know, what’s their process is and and kind of what they did. Scott Landry — But the other thing that I learned quickly was everybody that I talked to does it differently. And so it wasn’t about figuring out the process. It was about finding my own. Rich Birch — Yep.Scott Landry — And so I kind of leaned on what I know of myself and how I kind of operate. And so that was one.Scott Landry — I think the other one was You know, however much time you think it’s going to take, double it and then add some to that. Like it’s way more time than you think it’s going to going to take.Scott Landry — I would, you know, what do they say? Like find people in your life who tell you what you need to know, not what you want to hear. Like it’s like whoever you’re going to invite into the process with you, like you want to collaborate with people who are going to tell you the truth, not that you’re profound. It’s like, yeah, like I, I wanted this to be the best that it could be for my kids.Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — And that’s why I asked, you know, you and a few others. And so, um, and then I think, you know, the other one is, is really have a clear, at least for me, and I don’t know if this is true for you, but it’s like, I’m sure it is, like, you know who you’re writing to and who you’re writing for. Rich Birch — Right. Scott Landry — And I think that has to be like, every time I sat down, like after a coffee and was like, okay, here, we’re opening up the laptop again, it was like, I pictured Emma. I pictured Parker. This is who I’m writing this for. It’s like who, so whether if it’s a, if it’s a book for your church, if it’s a book for leaders, you know, whoever that’s for is like have a very clear picture in your mind, who your audience is and and imagine faces that represent those people.Scott Landry — Because I think it, to me at least, is it makes it less about the content and it brings the heart into it. And I think that I hope that and is what engages people more than, because I’m not a writer. But I hope my heart comes through the words that are on the pages. And I think that’s just because I had those two beautiful kids in mind.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. That’s a great, that’s a great tip. I, the, that idea of focusing who is the person. And I worked at a church that had a very robust practice kind of sermon practice process. And that’s one of the things, one of the questions we would often ask is like, who are you preaching this to? And I loved, cause our lead guy, he would get like really specific. It wouldn’t be like, it’s not like, well, I’m generally thinking 33 year old, you know, guys that are married. He’d be like, Scott Landry… Scott Landry — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, like he would like, it’s like he would pick out a specific person. He said, I’m hoping that that that’s who I’m thinking about. And that always struck me as like, I think that’s a part of what gave him great kind of power in his communication because it wasn’t this vague idea of like this, some general target. It’s like, no, I’m talking to this person and I want to, I want to communicate in a way that will move them. I think that’s great when you think about from a book point of view. Rich Birch — Well, I want to encourage people to pick up a copy of the book. But before we get there, any kind of last words about any of this that you want to share? You’ve been so generous with your time today.Scott Landry — No, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you having me on. And if anybody’s gotten to the end of this podcast and is even considering, you know, getting a copy of the book, I guess my heart for you would be to discover what I discovered the hard way, but I hope that it doesn’t require you to to find out the hard way is that that God truly knows who you truly are. And all he desperately wants is for you to be honest about who he already knows you are. And and then he wants to release that person for the purpose that he has for them. And so I pray that it doesn’t take whoever you are, you losing what I lost to find that. I hope that you will be wiser than I was. Learn, you know, don’t learn from your own mistakes, learn from mine. And, and, and, and find yourself because you’re going to find God there waiting. And I hope that for you and pray that for you.Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s great. So we want to send people to Amazon. Is that the best place that they can pick up copies of this book? Is there anywhere else we want to send them just as we wrap up today’s episode?Scott Landry — No, yeah, Amazon, the book “The Fight” is there. Can also follow me on Instagram. Keep updates there – @scottmlandry. Yeah, you can see pictures my sneakers. That’s about it.Rich Birch — It’s great. Thanks so much, Scott. Appreciate you being here.Scott Landry — Thank you, Rich.

In this engaging talk, Sarah Hooley, Executive Pastor at City Church in Fort Wayne, discusses her church's explosive growth from 800 to over 2,500 weekly attendees. She shares insights on reaching unchurched individuals by designing inclusive teaching and blended worship that embraces diverse backgrounds. Sarah also highlights the importance of volunteer-driven leadership, emphasizing equipping volunteers as leaders and fostering deep accountability through targeted discipleship initiatives like Alpha and gender-specific courses.

In this conversation with Aaron Stanski, the founder and CEO of Risepointe, listeners gain insights into church facility expansion. Aaron shares his 15 years of experience in church architecture and highlights common challenges, like the overwhelm of costs and zoning. He stresses the importance of clarifying needs before hiring an architect and emphasizes having a solid scope and budget. His firm’s Needs Analysis helps churches align their facilities with mission and avoid costly mistakes, ultimately leading to successful building projects.

Tensley Almand, President and CEO of Atlanta Mission, shares insightful leadership lessons from his journey in nonprofit management. He highlights the importance of transitioning from emergency shelter services to long-term transformational programs that address the root causes of homelessness. Tensley emphasizes the power of listening to staff for clarity and unity in strategy, and he explains how they measure success beyond activity, focusing on real outcomes for clients. His message encourages patience and faithfulness in leadership.

In this engaging discussion, Jamie Barfield, the Lead Pastor at Palmetto Pointe Church, shines a light on his journey growing a multi-campus church. He shares how scarcity fostered innovation, emphasizing the importance of a stewardship mindset. Jamie details a unique 12-week leader development process that ensures cultural alignment, selecting leaders who exemplify servanthood. He also offers practical insights on launching new services, addressing pastoral challenges, and the importance of focusing on specific goals to build momentum.

In this episode, John Sellers, the Executive Pastor at Journey Church in Central Florida, shares insights into leading one of the fastest-growing churches in the U.S. He discusses the challenges new visitors face in taking next steps and highlights innovative approaches like the New Here tent and $5 gift card to welcome newcomers. John also emphasizes the importance of a structured follow-up process, monthly baptism events, and how to create a fear-free environment for guests, ensuring they feel validated and encouraged to engage further.

In this special workshop episode, Rich Birch unpacks the same five systems thriving churches use to move from hoping for growth to launching it. If you’ve ever felt like your church’s momentum is hard to sustain—or that your people love your church but don’t naturally invite—this episode gives you a simple roadmap to turn things around before Christmas. You’ll learn: The 5 levers that fast-growing churches pull to train, equip, and motivate their people to invite friends Why building an invite culture is 15–25x more effective than marketing alone How to design a repeatable 90-day plan that sparks new growth before 2026 Real examples from churches seeing breakthrough results right now Plus: Rich shares a behind-the-scenes look at the Church Growth Incubator—a year-long coaching experience for church teams serious about sustainable growth. Learn more about the cohort here: Church Growth Incubator Proposal Click here to apply: apply.churchgrowthincubator.com Apply for the Church Growth Incubator by November 19th and unlock a special fast-action bonus — Rich will come to your church for a full on-site staff day in January–March 2026. This in-person strategy session (a $3,500 value) is designed to accelerate your church’s progress, align your team, and help you implement the five growth levers faster. Space is limited to those who apply before the deadline. Listen now and take your next step toward a thriving invite culture.

Exploring the dynamics of mid-size churches, the discussion highlights how group size impacts leadership and relational dynamics. The host emphasizes that being 'nice' can stifle growth, particularly around the 800-member mark. It challenges listeners to adopt a mission-driven approach that values clarity over consensus. Key strategies for fostering an invite culture are shared, including the need for intentionality in outreach and metrics for measuring success. Ultimately, effective leadership must prioritize mission to break through growth stagnation.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jeff Warren, Senior Pastor of Park Cities Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas. Founded 86 years ago, PCBC is a fast-growing multicultural, multilingual, and multigenerational church. What does it mean to stay faithful when leadership gets hard? In this candid conversation, Jeff shares lessons from decades of ministry—what he’s learned about identity, calling, and staying grounded when the pressures of leadership rise. From navigating the complexity of a large, legacy church to cultivating spiritual vitality among staff and volunteers, his perspective is both refreshing and deeply rooted in grace. A legacy church with a living mission. // Park Cities Baptist Church stands at the crossroads of tradition and transformation. Located in the heart of Dallas, the church gathers thousands each week across multiple venues and languages, including a thriving Spanish service. Jeff describes PCBC as “steeple people”—a legacy church that feels both historic and alive. Behind it all is a culture of warmth and hospitality, where five services, multiple worship styles, and vibrant connect groups reflect a single mission. The beauty and challenge of intergenerational ministry. // Jeff calls his congregation “intergenerational” for good reason. PCBC brings together everyone from centenarians to newborns, creating a living picture of the kingdom of God. While multiple venues help serve diverse preferences, Jeff’s deeper goal is to foster relationships across generations. The goal isn’t to erase differences, but to celebrate them as part of the family of God. Staying healthy as a leader. // After decades of ministry, Jeff has learned that sustainable leadership begins with identity in Christ, not performance. “Never base your worth on something that can be taken away,” he says, echoing C.S. Lewis. Ministry can easily become like a “drug,” feeding off the need to be needed or to see results. Jeff shares that his life verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21, grounds him in the truth that he is fully accepted, totally loved, and completely pleasing to God—not because of what he does, but because of who he is in Christ. This daily return to grace is what keeps him anchored through the highs and lows of leadership. Building a healthy team culture. // Jeff believes church health starts with healthy leaders. At PCBC, he models and expects rhythms of spiritual formation and accountability. The entire staff reads the same daily Scripture plan and discusses it together before meetings. The team also sets holistic yearly goals—spiritual, physical, relational, and vocational—to encourage balance and self-leadership. Living faithfully in the moment. // Through the challenges of COVID and cultural polarization, Jeff learned a lesson he now shares with his team: live in the present and define success by faithfulness, not outcomes. That posture of mindful obedience—serving whoever God places in front of him—is what what it looks like to be faithful with our moments, days and lives. To learn more about Park Cities Baptist Church, visit pcbc.org. You can also find Jeff Warren on Instagram and Threads at @jeff_warren and discover his book Live Forgiven wherever books are sold. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. I know it’s going to be the kind of thing that’s going to be helpful for you. Hopefully inspiring, hopefully help you to think about maybe the future of your church a little bit. Rich Birch — Today, we have got Jeff Warren with us. He is from Park Cities Baptist Church and has served in multiple roles. If I’m getting it right, the young adults pastor, the minister the men’s ministry associate pastor, and since 2010, the senior pastor. Park City (PCBC) is a multicultural, multilingual, multi-generational church that meets in multiple venues, which is lots of multis in one sentence in Dallas. They’re also one of the fastest growing churches in the city. Jeff, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Jeff Warren — All right, Rich. Hey, great to be with you, man. And you about got it right. Yeah, I was here previously as student pastor right out of seminary.Rich Birch — Okay, nice.Jeff Warren — And so I was here for lots of years and then and gone. Rich Birch — Yeah Jeff Warren — I was in McKinney just north of here for 10, 11, and then back. The Lord called me back where I’m now ah dedicating babies of kids in my youth ministry and, you know, all that kind of thing. So really cool.Rich Birch — So good.Jeff Warren — Yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, well, um I’d love to hear a little bit more about PCBC. Kind of tell us the story, fill in the flavor. You know, if you were, if we came this weekend, tell us a little bit of what we would see.Jeff Warren — Yeah, so you would you would come ah here at Northwest Highway in Dallas where there are thousands of cars driving by me right now. We are I like to say we’re yeah we’re a legacy church. You know, we’ve been around. We’ll celebrate this next month 86 years of being here in Dallas… Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing. Jeff Warren — …and the church was was it was planted, like a lot of folks probably listening, we met at University Park Elementary School ah for a while. Small group of people said there ought to be a church in Park Cities, where just right north of me right now from my office um was really the kind of the highest furthest point of North Dallas. We have ah charter members who remember it was big field, which is hard to believe. Rich Birch — Wow. Yes. It’s packed now. Yeah. Jeff Warren — You you can’t get out of a field, you know, for, yeah, for miles and miles. So all that said though, you would show up at big, you know, giant traditional, church with a steeple, you know, we’re steeple people, all the things.Jeff Warren — But once you, gosh, step in, you would find that you’re greeted with a lot of love. It’s a challenging ah thing to find, okay where do I fit in? Wait, where do I go? So you find it all on our website. But we have multi-, as you said. I like to say intergenerational, right?Rich Birch — Good. I like that. Yeah, nice.Jeff Warren — We’re cross-generational, but intergenerational, that’s hard work, you know, we could talk about too.Jeff Warren — But yeah, we have we have five services on a Sunday morning. Two of those, one’s in a chapel, one’s in a you know giant sanctuary, a beautiful sanctuary we have here. And then two of those are in the Great Hall where we have a contemporary you know modern worship and then En Español that meets in the and a Great Hall as well.Jeff Warren — So we have all that. It sounds complicated, but once you arrive, we can point you to where you need to be. We have connect groups on Sunday mornings as well. So you have all those options with kids and all the things that happen here on Sunday morning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s ah that’s a lot going on. That’s that’s incredible. I’d love to talk about the intergenerational. You know, that’s obviously something that you’re excited about and that God’s used. Talk us through when you say intergenerational, what what do you mean by that? What’s that look like?Jeff Warren — Yeah. So you can imagine in a legacy church, a lot of different, the tension, you know, of a lot of different opinions, different experiences, all the things can make you crazy you know half the time, used to more so than it does now. I’ve seen it as just a glorious and beautiful thing to be in ah an intergenerational church where people have different ways of worshiping the Lord, different ways to connect.Jeff Warren — So that’s why, in part, we have you know a lot of different options here. We have you know you yeah I know you talk to a lot of folks who have kind of one church, multiple locations. I like to think we we’re multiple venues in one church, you know one place. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeff Warren — And we also have a couple of sites off campus too, though, with our Spanish-speaking ministry. But all that said, man, the beauty and the glory of of a church that has an older, you know, I called the gal two weeks ago. I called on a Saturday, called her on her 100th birthday, you know, to wish her a happy birthday.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Jeff Warren — And then to be dedicating, as we did this past week, dedicating babies, you know, parents coming to dedicate their kids before the Lord. It’s just a beautiful thing. The challenge, Rich, comes with, I like to say intergenerational, you know, and that’s the that’s the challenge is to constantly allow and and and leverage our older adults with all the wisdom and all the things where you have Gen Z who so wants more and more mentors. Jeff Warren — I talked to a gal last night. She’s in her 30s. I’m just looking for a mentor. Talk to a gal on Sunday. I need an older woman in my life. So the beauty of that is I know some older women. We can do this. You know, but it’s also the challenge. You come on our campus and it’s, hey, you’re young person, hey, they’re over there. And older person, you probably, okay, you’re probably over here in the chapel or whatever.Jeff Warren — And so we we like to have, we have events and gatherings. We had one last night, a prayer gathering where we had we talked about how to respond to all the violence taking place in the world. And so it’s cross-generational. And so that’s the challenge, I think, the tension not to resolve but to manage is to connect our people across generational lines.Rich Birch — Love it.Jeff Warren — We do periodically come together, as we will, a few times, probably four, maybe five times um a year, where we gather all together and worship the Lord. We’ll do that for our anniversary upcoming. Rich Birch — That’s cool. Jeff Warren — And yeah, so it that’s the challenge along with it.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to kind of double click on that. I like that you’re saying it’s a challenge, it’s a tension, it’s glorious, and it’s beautiful. You know, every, and and, you know, there was a time in the life of the church, there was this idea, and you’ll no doubt know these words, this homogeneous unit idea that like, churches are going to grow by like all being the same. But actually increasingly we’ve just found that’s just not working, frankly. And it’s actually not a reflection of the kingdom of Christ. Jeff Warren — Right. Rich Birch — We don’t really want to do that. It’s it’s actually quite a bad idea and you’re trying to live out all kinds of diversity—age is one of them, you know, ah ethnic, racial, you know, there’s lots of ways we’re trying to to have diversity as a church. And what are you learning about trying to walk that line? What’s kind of practical? How are you doing that? How are you trying to drive towards unity? Like you say, living in the tension or the challenge of that?Jeff Warren — Yeah, I think, as you noted, I remember that too, ho homogeneous unit a principle. I think it was Peter Wagner… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Jeff Warren — …in you know another age and era. But…Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeff Warren — …and you know and a lot of us like, okay, let’s go, thinking that was right and good. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah..Jeff Warren — We didn’t read Revelation 7:9, where all this is heading, right?Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Jeff Warren — People from all tribes and nations. So, yeah, doesn’t look much like the kingdom of God. I think that’s the first step is to recognize, man, we we want to be that church. Now, if you know anything about Dallas, you come here, we’re in the Park Cities. So we’re we’re a township within Dallas, you know. And I don’t mind telling you, know we are we are white. I mean, we’re white up in here. And ah and very affluent ah part of, you know, part of Dallas as well.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeff Warren — But with that, ah we’re involved in a lot of ministry. I’ve heard others who’ve said, hey, you know, oftentimes the diversity around the community of the church, say within a one mile radius or so, is a lot more diverse than than the actual church itself. And so we have made some strides there, though. We we have become more and more colorful along the way, which is a greater picture of heaven.Jeff Warren — Our In Español ministry is flourishing in a place where, against all odds, um our our Spanish language ministry is flourishing. And they are an integral part of our church as well. So that just opens the door for all kinds of opportunities. We’ve been involved in a lot of racial justice and reconciliation across the city of Dallas where we’ve partnered with ah churches, pastor swaps, all those good things.Rich Birch — That’s great.Jeff Warren — But um more and more, I think you were asking for practical things.Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jeff Warren — I think it’s you know it’s that message of grace that’s got to drive everything. That everyone’s welcome here. I like to say it this way, we are radically devoted to hospitality and we are radically devoted to holiness. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — So becoming like Jesus. You know, I like to say, man, with all the theological debates we could have, you know, Jesus was perfect theology embodied, right? Rich Birch — That’s good. Jeff Warren — So if you’re if you’re not, if you’re if you’re theology, the application of Scripture doesn’t look like Jesus in the end, you’re doing it wrong. And so grace is at the center. I like to say, you know, I don’t like to say we’re a centrist church – that feels like we’re sitting on the fence, right?Jeff Warren — But but but we really are. We’re not we’re you know We’re not hardcore right and left and whatever that might mean for people here in America in particular. We find our we we find ourselves at the deep center… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Jeff Warren — …where Christ is at the center of the church. And with that message of grace ah constantly in the mix, people, I think, do do feel and sense, man, I think I’m loved here. It doesn’t matter my skin color, doesn’t matter what look like, how old I am, young. And so that’s kind of the driving point… Rich Birch — That’s good. Jeff Warren — …I think, is are you you preaching that message of grace?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Jeff Warren — Yeah.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, um I don’t think you’ll mind me saying this. You have been in the saddle for a few years. You’ve been ah leader for quite a while, been through a lot. I’m sure you’ve been through ups and downs, wins and losses, things that have been good, things that haven’t been so good. Jeff Warren — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do you as a leader, how do you keep yourself, your soul anchored in Jesus? Jeff Warren — Yeah. Rich Birch — How do you keep leading through when things are up and down and not get sidelined? How do you do that?Jeff Warren — Yeah, man. That’s a loaded one, right? We can talk a long time about that.Rich Birch — Yes, lot there.Jeff Warren — And I’ll try to center those thoughts. I was yeah I was at ah I was speaking at a seminary um ah not too long ago, and one of the guys said, the professor said, we need to have you back because our students need to see happy pastors. And you know I saw I think you probably saw, Barna recently came out, that what, 42% of all pastors are considering quitting.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeff Warren — Man, I haven’t seen those numbers since COVID, right?Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.Jeff Warren — I haven’t. I get that.Rich Birch — Right.Jeff Warren — I’m in a great place right now. I’m grateful. I am in a happy place. But man, I’ve had some dark nights of the soul. I would just say to all of your young pastor leaders out there that if you stay at this long enough, you will have those. And what’s what’s kept me in, Rich, has been a clear calling to the ministry and to this place. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — Everywhere I’ve gone, it’s been, Lord, I’m i’m there until you yank me out. And so knowing in those moments where, man, I could be doing this elsewhere, you know that kind of thing. We always kind of look into where the grass is greener, I think. But knowing that the Lord’s called me here, those have been in those dark moments, those have been the times when I’ve been, I’m still in, I’m still in.Jeff Warren — And I think a big part of that too, for me, a lot of us, we wrap our identity up in our work that we do. That’s not just pastoring thing. But we define our work by the maybe the approval of others or by performance. And in ministry, that gets real insidious. It gets twisted because I’m doing this all for God, right?Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Jeff Warren — And then you start to realize um along the way that, gosh, maybe not. You know, maybe maybe I do have this high need to be needed. Maybe that’s why I’m in ministry in some ways.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.Jeff Warren — That’s why he called me. I have have empathy is my highest you know strength finder, for real. It’s like the highest of the strength.Rich Birch — Yes. Love it.Jeff Warren — So I feel all the feels. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeff Warren — It serves well as a pastor, but also wrecks me. You know, when I’m like, oh, man, I I I so I love people, and I, you know, there’s underneath the dark side of that is I want them to love me too.Jeff Warren — So I think staying centered, the main thing, Rich, that I would say is that—this is probably that moment you know in the in the sermon, in the teaching, if you hear nothing else, you know this is it.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeff Warren — For me, it has been to constantly, I never knew ministry would be this, constantly running back to Christ and finding my identity in Him. C.S. Lewis was the one who said, and I’ll translate him differently, but he said, never base your worth on something that can be taken away from you. Right?Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah.Jeff Warren — So so I’m a you know I’m a father, I’m a son, I’m a brother, I’m a friend, I’m, oh, and I’m a pastor, you know, all those things. None of those things are the truest thing about me. And someday, when, you know, parents are gone, when, you know, whatever, name it, you know, it’s why professional athletes who have a career in ending injury, right, need to not just have therapy.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeff Warren — They need to have, I mean, physical, they need to have real therapy. They don’t know who they are anymore. And so if our identity is founded being a pastor in my case, then man, that is going to be a rough road. And because, right, it’s up and down all the time.Jeff Warren — And and oftentimes we base that on numbers. How’s my church doing? Are we growing? Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Jeff Warren — You know, am I crushing it in terms of sermons? Rich Birch — Yep. Jeff Warren — And that’s been the thing is constantly going back to this private personal prayer, Rich, that I have often into worship before I come before the Lord in in my quiet time. Lord, to remind me again of how much you love me. Remind me again of how much you love me.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — And that’s the key thing.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah. Let’s let’s double click on that. There’s an interesting tension there of having our identity firmly rooted in Christ, that’s obviously preeminent. And, you know, having a clear calling like that, you know, Jesus has called us to be where we are today. He’s called us to the role we’re in. Man, the lines can get blurry, though, between those two. You know, the kind of like our the call to have a, um you you know, a really strong call on our life for this, you know, this season or this place or this thing, this mission that we’re a part of can get wrapped up in like, well, maybe that’s the person I am.Rich Birch — How do you, how do you hold both of those at the same time? How do you hold both of those in a way that that’s healthy? Because it seems as an outsider, it seems like you’re you’re able to do that well.Jeff Warren — Well, um It’s been a journey, Rich. I do think I’m doing it better than I have in the past. So ah for me, I would say it this way, um as quick as I can, I guess, here. 2 Corinthians 5.21 is my life verse. It says, He made Him—we all know this verse—He may made Him who knew no sin to become sin for us, right?Jeff Warren — The first half of that verse, that’s the gospel. Like, okay, yeah, Jesus, He’s our substitute more than just our good example, right? But then the latter part of that verse is what changed my life. Years ago, I was probably in my 30s, already in ministry, doing youth ministry at the time. But man, I was running like a wild man. Like I was at times, that’s a longer story, but I was so busy. I was married, no kids at that point. And I was like, who’s pointing a gun at my head? I can’t stop. Rich Birch — Right.Jeff Warren — You know, I love what I’m doing. But Stacey, my wife, was like, are you you’re busy again this weekend? You know, it was kind of that moment. And I was like, what is what is happening to me? And it was this need to be needed. And and then I realized that ministry can become like a drug, right?Jeff Warren — But so I understood the gospel, all that. But the latter part of that verse, he made him and who knew no sin to become sin for us. Then it says there’s this henna clause, a comma in a Greek.Jeff Warren — I know just enough Greek to be dangerous, right? There’s ah but it’s a purpose clause that Paul used over and over again. He says, in order that, in other words, this happened in order that. And it says, in order that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Right? And so so what that means, I mean, I’ve asked that question before college students, adults, you know what is the righteousness of God? And I often get crickets.Jeff Warren — And I think that’s because we don’t see we don’t know who we are. We are totally accepted, fully pleasing, completely loved, by Him. That is who I am. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — I am first a beloved son of the Most High King. That’s who I am. So much of ministry, I never knew… I mean, this is Christian life. But ministry is constantly, Lord, to remind me again. That’s the battle. And and I mean, you’ve asked the question. The battle is to stay there, to remain there. Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, that’s so good.Jeff Warren — And that’s for every one of us. And I never knew that ministry would be such a battlefield to constantly go back to Him and to be found in Him, is the phrase Paul loved, right? To be in Him-ness, the doctrine of of remaining in Him. That’s not to, in my case, not losing my salvation. I did nothing to gain it. I did nothing to receive it, so I can do nothing to lose it. But to stay in Him. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Jeff Warren — So that’s a it truly is, Rich, a constant spiritual discipline of of remaining in Him. And so, you know, not everybody can do this. You’ve got kids running around, you know. I’ve had twins and and I had three kids. But but now I can I can get up. My mornings are quiet. I get up early. You know, I think the key to life is going to bed on time, being early if you can. Rich Birch — It’s true.Jeff Warren — And I like to hit the day in before the Lord and just get centered. So that’s what we do. And then, Lord, help me to how to live out of this. Rich Birch — That’s so so good. Jeff Warren — Help me live out of this.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, let’s pivot back to the church. You know, PCBC is is growing. It’s, you know, was flagged as one of the fastest growing churches in the country. You know, healthy things grow. How do you think about the kind of connection between growth and church health? How do those things fit together? How do you ensure that you’re not just, you know, weeds grow too. We don’t want those to we don’t want those to grow.Jeff Warren — Yeah, right.Rich Birch — We want something healthy to grow ah that’s got great fruit on and on the on the limbs. Talk me through how that works for you and how do you lead in that direction?Jeff Warren — Yes. So, um you know, I think it’s really hard to find healthy churches because it’s hard to find healthy leaders, right?Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Jeff Warren — It’s hard to find healthy teams, leadership teams, because it’s hard to find healthy leaders. And so I I’ve really just, I think it’s it’s on me, it’s on key leaders in our church. Rich Birch — That’s good. Jeff Warren — I’m constantly talking to our team about how to be healthy, what I just described to you. I want my team to walk, remain in Him. I challenged my team this week, Rich. You know of the number of pastors who’ve fallen, particularly here in Dallas. It almost seems like there’s one every every week, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s been it’s been quite a season in Dallas.Jeff Warren — And another just last week. And Yeah, so I’m, ah so my, you know, I I talked to our entire, we had an all staff. We have once a month, yesterday, Tuesday, and um gave them, you know, again, the big challenge. I did it with our ministers as well, just remain in the Lord. Let’s let’s not let’s not let that happen here. You know, how do we keep accountable with one another? And and so that’s that’s the great challenge. I think i think too often we it’s ministry pace can be so fast and so crazy. And we’re in a season right now that is wild. I like to say Jesus was often busy, but he was never in a hurry. Rich Birch — That’s good. Jeff Warren — And so I love to talk to our team about opportunities to slow down, even in busy seasons. How can we be in a busy season, managing life, family, marriage, all those things, and and stay centered in Him? Jeff Warren — So I think more pastor leaders need to model that. We need to live that out and talk about it as a team. We read Scripture together. We have this Dwell reading plan. You can find it our website. All of our members are reading Scripture, the same Scriptures, every morning, every day.Rich Birch — So good.Jeff Warren — And so for years, Rich, I’ve wondered, how can I help my team be accountable? How can I be certain they’re in the Word? You know, I can’t I used to tell them, there’s only so much I can do for you. I hope you’re doing this. Jeff Warren — But now at every staff meeting, every minister’s meeting, before we start, we’ll pray together and I’ll say, all right, hey, turn to your neighbor. Let’s talk about what you heard from God this morning when you’re in His Word. Rich Birch — Right.Jeff Warren — And we’re all reading the same thing. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.Jeff Warren — And so, yeah, that’s a relative past few years, a relatively new thing. And so we talk about what are we learning? How are we growing? You know, then BAM, let’s kick in. It doesn’t have to be a long part of the meeting, but it centers us, keeps us accountable.Jeff Warren — Back to your question, I think that’s that’s key, is is is keeping everybody is spiritually healthy, and then myself, executive pastor, keeping us on on target, on track.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.Jeff Warren — You know, and like we’re on a 100-day run you know right now as we’re doing a lot of vision planning. We’re doing long-range stuff towards 2030 right now for the next five years. And but centering in on, okay, what what’s the next? It’s kind that one four, one four, if you’ve seen that, that Auxano, others have used. That helps us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, I was going to ask for an example, but I love that idea of like, hey, we’re we’re on the same reading plan. We’re trying to keep everybody and hey, we’re going to even integrate that into our conversations. I think that’s that’s really practical.Rich Birch — I often hear, you know, like it might be easy for the lead guy or the leader, whoever the leader of the church is, to be busy, but not in a hurry because like they can control their schedule. But working in a large, fast growing church is it’s like relentless, right? The weekend is always coming. Is there anything else that you do to try to ensure the rhythms with your team that you don’t get to the place where your, your team is like, Oh sure. That’s great for Jeff, but that doesn’t work in my world. Is there anything else you do to try to help your team, you know, run at a good pace?Jeff Warren — Yeah, I think I think it’s staying it’s it’s staying in your lane, doing what you’ve called to do. Yeah that’s a great question, Rich. And because I don’t have the quick answer, I’m like, ha, we got to work on this one.Rich Birch — Yeah, you’re good. That’s good.Jeff Warren — Again, instead of just, hey, I’ll model that for you. Because truthfully, I mean, I love, like a lot of us, I love the work I do. I’ve got a really, I got a busy day today, you know doing a lot of things I love. But I’ll also model the role… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Jeff Warren — …and then I’ll ask them one of the parts of our our evaluation even involves some ah some holistic health. And so the at the beginning of every year, I ask them to give to me and we share together the you know, kind of what’s your single word for the year kind of center in what are you what are you looking for God to do and desiring for him to do in you?Jeff Warren — And then we look at, literally, we look at physical, spiritual, interrelational, and then vocational life. Rich Birch — That’s good. Jeff Warren — And then we talk about what are your goals for the year. And that plays into then how you’re doing. So I can come back to knowing every one of them. Hey, want to work out a few times a week. You know, I’m gonna I’m going to finally lose some weight. I need to go to bed earlier. You know, whatever the thing might be, try to keep each other accountable in that. Easier said than done.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeff Warren — But I think I think it’s true. If you model it as a leader, and I think you’re okay. You know, we all want to, I think a lot of times we think our members want us to, I hope my pastor is about to kill himself serving Jesus, you know? And they really don’t mean that, but it can feel that way.Rich Birch — No, no.Jeff Warren — So when I get a chance, like I want to be out on my bike, you know, I want to be. I’d love to ride. That’s my happy place. And so I’ll be be out at the lake these days. I’m trying to find some gap there. I think it’s real important that you you you set a schedule for the week and try to set a pattern.Jeff Warren — So there are certain times that are study times for me that can’t be touched. There are certain times where I do mark out, when am I going to get some exercise, you know, that kind of thing. Again, easier said than done ah because, you know, there’s going to come the crisis.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Jeff Warren — There’s going to come, oh, I’m doing that funeral. You know, that happens.Rich Birch — Right. Right. That pushes in for sure. Yeah that’s, that’s, that’s great. Well, you’ve written a book called “Live Forgiven”. I’d love to hear a little bit more about that. We’ll link to that in the show notes, but why don’ you tell us a little bit about, uh, about that book? What, you know, kind of what was the, the germ of that? Well, that’s a lot of work to pull together, a resource like that. Talk us through that. What’s, what’s that look like?Jeff Warren — Yeah, so it’s a little bit of what I talked about earlier. It really is unpacking the gospel. What does it mean to live forgiven? In other words, what is grace? And then how do you appropriate grace in your life?Jeff Warren — So it really is built around my life verse, 2 Corinthians 5.21 that we talked about earlier. And a lot of what I’ve learned, the appropriation of grace to really, again, remain in Him, I think you know it’s possible today, Rich, and this is a big deal, this is what I’m preaching a lot, it’s possible to self-identify as a Christian in America and not be a disciple of Jesus. And those are two very different things, right? I know that you know John Mark Comer, among others, have talked a lot about that. He’s just riffing off Dallas Willard. We all know that. And that that there’s a real difference. And so anyway, it’s it’s about that.Jeff Warren — Once capturing grace and understanding the gospel that Christianity is not work harder, get better. It’s believe more deeply what He’s already accomplished for us. And then, okay, yeah, I get that. But then how to appropriate that?Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — How can I live forgiven, remaining in Him? And that’s my, you know, if you come around here much, that’s my constant message. We don’t have much of another message, really, do we, Rich? We’ve got one message, and it’s the grace of God.Rich Birch — Right. Amen. Yeah.Jeff Warren — And then it’s parsed out in all kinds of ways. But, yeah, that’s what the book’s about.Rich Birch — That’s great. So good. well Well, yeah, we’ll link to that. And this has been, this been a good conversation, you know, ah thinking through wrestling through you know, your own um relationship with Jesus, how that impacts your life, how that impacts your leadership, you know, leading a, you know, very busy churches doing all kinds of things and is reaching people. Busy is to the wrong word, in a very active church that’s, you know, making an impact, which is incredible. It’s been a good conversation. Anything else you’d love to share just as we kind of land today’s episode?Jeff Warren — Yeah, I would share something that ah um I’ve come to over the past few years and a new learning for me that I think would be really good for pastors, leaders listening. Another thing that’s really set me free um has been to to live in the present, to be mindful and and to live in the moment. We hear that a lot, but let me let me explain that.Jeff Warren — You know when COVID hit, um if we were if we were deciding that you know our worth and our value is found in how many people come into our church, that was kind of blown up, right? And so during that time, I was really I was really wrestling. Like a lot of us, was real dark time because any decision I made as a pastor… and I’m starting to have some PTSD you know right now with some of what’s going on our culture right now. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.Jeff Warren — You know the old the the old but the trope, you know if your pastor didn’t say this, you know this past week…Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, it’s wild, right?Jeff Warren — …I mean, you know, you ought to find another church. I’m like, please.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Jeff Warren — Okay, you’re not pastoring my church.Rich Birch — No, exactly.Jeff Warren — So so during that time, long longer story short, out of that then, where I thought, well, we’re going to bounce back, you know. We we were, think, a lot of legacy churches. We did not bounce back, right? We’re back. We’re beyond where we were pre-COVID. But it has been, I mean, it’s been work, right?Rich Birch — It’s a journey. Yeah. Yeah.Jeff Warren — So so for me the the learning is this. I have a friend who is a recovering addict. He’s got a ministry that’s amazing. Michael Moulton, M to the Rock is his is this name.Jeff Warren — But he I sat down with him and I said, Michael, how do you do it, man? How are you sober? How do you remain sober?Jeff Warren — He said he said, Jeff, I’ve got to live in the moment. I’ve got to live in the present.Jeff Warren — And I said, okay, help me there. Help me. What do you mean? Jeff Warren — He said, man, if I go back to in the past, all I have is shame and regret. My guy’s got 23 mug shots, okay. He’s had he has a past, right. And he says, if I go in the past I have shame or regret. If I go into the future, all I have is worry and anxiety. He says, so I’ve got to stay right here. Jeff Warren — And then I said, how do you do how do you stay right here? I mean I get that, but he said, I’ve got I’ve got to serve somebody. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Jeff Warren — I’ve got I’ve got to get outside of myself. And I’ve got to serve someone. Jeff Warren — So Rich, here’s what I’d say to to close all that. It’s been so freeing for me. It means that I’m going to…what is success? Okay, there’s not numbers in ministry or whatever, the you know, bigger, better church, something. What is success? I asked the Lord during that time, Lord, what is success in ministry? And he he kind of, you know, holy headbutt, kind of slapped me upside the head and said, no, there’s a question before that question. Shows you where your mind and your heart is. The question is not success in ministry. What is success in life, right? What is success as a disciple?Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — And what I came to, and this is not new for me, I discovered later that Mother Teresa, among others. It’s success is faithfulness. Full stop.Rich Birch — That’s good. Amen. Amen.Jeff Warren — Not faithfulness so that… Right? No, no, no. Faithfulness full stop. And so what does faithfulness look like? This is where all this goes. Faithfulness looks like being faithful in the moment. Like with whomever He’s put in front of me right now.Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — Not not this afternoon.Rich Birch — Good. Right.Jeff Warren — Not my lunch appointment. Right now. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeff Warren — Whomever He’s put in front of me, focus! And whatever He’s called me to do in the moment. And man, that has been so freeing for me.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Jeff Warren — It’s a battle, but if we can live that way… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Jeff Warren — …I can put, you know, you and I both, I can put this hour together. Next I got another appointment later. I’m meeting with another, you know, whatever. I can go home tonight, hopefully give my best emotional energy to Stacey, my wife, and I can put my head on the pillow tonight and go, I mean, I kind of messed up, you know, 2 o’clock, I blew it, and then 3 o’clock, that wasn’t a great meeting. Rich Birch — Right.Jeff Warren — But I sought to be faithful in the moment.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.Jeff Warren — And you put some hours together, you put days together, months and years together, and someday, you know, it’s what we long to hear. Hey you’ve been faithful. Well done. Been faithful. And those happened that just happens one moment at a time.Rich Birch — Yeah, Jeff, that’s so good. That’s so good. So helpful for people. I appreciate that. Great. Yeah, super helpful insights and great for us to wrestle through and think about those things.Rich Birch — If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?Jeff Warren — Yeah, you can find us at pcbc.org. Find out everything about us. You can even find there. You can find, know, I’m on Instagram. You know, Twitter, less and less. Facebook, you know, dumpster fire, even less.Rich Birch — True. So true.Jeff Warren — I’m on Threads. You can find me.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeff Warren — I think it’s jeff_warren, but just find, yeah, Jeff Warren.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great. Appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you so much.Jeff Warren — Thank you, Rich. Thanks for all you’re doing, man. I love love you. Appreciate all you’re doing, bro. Keep it up.Rich Birch — Thanks so much.Jeff Warren — All right.

Most churches are overspending on visibility and under-investing in invitations. In the late 1900s I ran a dot-com back when saying “I run a dot-com” got you a seat at the cool table. We obsessed over our branding. Fancy logo. Perfect domain. Debated five kinds of red like our lives depended on hex codes. Launch day came and… crickets. Why? We were doing marketing when we should’ve been doing conversations. The growth strategy wasn’t a new shade of crimson; it was getting out of the building and talking to customers. Churches make the same mistake. We assume the next Facebook hack, TikTok trend, or website refresh will push us over the top. But the channel we’re ignoring is sitting right in front of us every Sunday: people who personally invite people. The data has been shouting this for years: personal invitations beat paid reach … in effectiveness, in trust, and in retention. You don’t need a new logo, Google Ads, or a slicker site. You need to build inviters. If you want durable and compounding growth, stop buying marketing and start building inviters. Call it Invite Propensity, the percentage of attenders who invite someone in a given period. It’s the church’s NPS (Net Promoter Score): a simple human metric that predicts future growth better than vanity numbers (impressions, followers, even raw attendance). When invite propensity rises, everything compounds — first-time guests, baptisms, small-group participation — because invitation rides on the rails of relationship, the most trusted medium on earth. Your Church Doesn’t Need Another Idea—It Needs a Plan Most churches want to grow but feel stuck doing more without seeing results. Join Rich Birch for a free 60-minute workshop that gives you a simple, proven way to reignite momentum and see more people connected to your church. You’ll walk away with a clear 90-day growth plan you can actually implement—no extra staff or budget required. Wednesday, November 12th at 12noon ET / 9am PT Free online training for pastors and church leaders who want real results. Save My Seat Why “More Marketing” ≠ “More Reach” We live in the attention recession. More posts, more reels, more ads, but diminishing returns. Meanwhile, trust in institutional messaging lags far behind trust in people we actually know. According to Nielsen’s global survey, recommendations from friends and family are the most trusted form of promotion, outranking every ad channel by a mile. [ref] McKinsey adds that word-of-mouth drives 20–50% of decisions, cutting through the noise in ways paid media can’t. [ref] Translation for church leaders: the most persuasive “ad” for your church isn’t an ad. It’s a friend who says, “Sit with me.” And it’s not just first-touch effectiveness. It’s stickiness. People who come through relationships are more likely to stay because relationships are the glue. Research on assimilation shows that those who remain active long-term average seven new friendships; those who drift away average fewer than two. [ref] Friends don’t just get people in the door … they keep connected to the church long term. Personal invite dominates first visits. Decades of studies converge on the same point: the #1 reason people attend a church is that someone they know invited them, far outstripping ads and programs. [ref] Younger adults are even more invite-driven. Recent surveys of evangelicals show 71% of under-35s first connected to their church via a personal invitation, versus ~51% among 55+, authenticity and relationships trump exploration. [ref] None of this requires marketing spending or media buy. It requires a robust invite culture. Invite Propensity Invite Propensity is the share of your congregation that has personally invited someone in the last 90 days. Why it matters: Predictive power. Invite Propensity is a leading indicator. Attendance is lagging. Track the leading indicator. Compounding effects. One person invites one friend; some of those friends invite friends; the network compounds. Budget sanity. The cost per retained attender via ads can run high (mailers, boosts, design)—while a personal invitation’s cost is near zero and comes with built-in hospitality. If 12% of your people invite one person per quarter and half of the invitees show up, that’s a 6% quarterly lift in first-time guests before a single ad dollar is spent. If 30% of those guests connect into groups or serve via relational bridges, you’ve just shifted the growth curve … with trust, not spend. 4 Outreach Myths Draining Your Momentum Confusing visibility with persuasion. // More impressions don’t equal more impact. Awareness is necessary, insufficient, and expensive. You can buy reach, but you can’t buy trust. People don’t show up because they saw your ad; they show up because someone they know invited them. If your communications strategy ends at visibility, it’s just brand maintenance, not mission advancement. Shift budget and attention toward equipping inviters. Measure personal outreach, not post reach. Centralizing evangelism to staff. // When outreach becomes a department, the body atrophies. Staff-led evangelism looks efficient on a spreadsheet but weak in real life. And again … marketing feels safer. You can spend money, schedule posts, and avoid people. Stop that. The early church didn’t hire a marketing firm; it mobilized a movement. Make every role invitational. Train parking teams, kids’ volunteers, and greeters to ask, “Who could you bring next week?” Equip small group leaders to model invitation as part of discipleship. The job of the staff is to create inviters, not do the inviting for them. Under-funding hospitality. // People won’t risk relational capital if they don’t trust that guests will feel welcome. If an attendee at your church isn’t confident that their friend will have a great experience, they’ll never send the invite. Confusing signage, awkward kids’ check-in, or “guess which door is the main entrance” kills momentum. Audit your Sunday experience like a first timer. Fix friction points before you ask people to invite. Hospitality isn’t a side ministry … it’s your front door. If you want more invites, fund the experience members are proud to share. Only celebrating conversions. // Most churches platform the touchdown and ignore the drive that got them there. But people don’t start with conversions; they start with conversations. If you only celebrate salvations, you silently teach your people that the invite doesn’t matter unless it ends in a baptism. Celebrate courage, not just conversion. Tell the story of the invite text sent, the coworker who came, the “yes” that started a journey. Make inviting part of the discipleship story. When you normalize the attempt, you multiply the effort. The Budget Question Should you stop all advertising? Not necessarily. Paid media can prime the pump—but the conversion happens in the relationship. Ads can raise awareness; people create action. Here’s the uncomfortable math: Through decades of studies, personal invitations outperform advertising by an order of magnitude. The Institute for American Church Growth found that nearly 79% of first-time guests came because someone they knew invited them, while programs, ads, and special events accounted for single-digit percentages. [ref] Meanwhile, McKinsey estimates that 20–50% of all consumer decisions … in every sector .. are driven by word-of-mouth influence. [ref] That’s at least 10x more effective than most paid channels. So, if invitations are roughly 10x more powerful than marketing, then … logically … you should be investing 10x more in building an invite culture than investing in marketing and ads. That doesn’t mean kill your marketing budget. It means repurpose it. Your spending should follow your strategy: 1. Training (Staff & Systems) Most churches don’t have a marketing problem…they have a discipleship problem disguised as one. The job of your staff isn’t to post better; it’s to prompt better. Train your team to infuse invitation into every department: kids, worship, groups, and guest services. “How does this help people bring a friend?” should become a standing meeting question. That’s your new creative brief. Budget for leadership development, invite-culture workshops, and ongoing coaching that helps your staff stay focused on mobilizing inviters, not managing impressions. 2. Equipping (Tools for the Congregation) People want to invite; they just don’t know how. Make it stupidly easy. The most effective churches lower friction with shareable tools—physical and digital. Think: Branded invite cards with simple copy (“Sit with me this Sunday.”) Pre-built social graphics your people can post or text. A clean, mobile-first landing page with times, directions, kids’ info, and an RSVP option. Easy one-tap “share” buttons that let members tag a friend directly. Budget for creative production that serves your members as marketers, not your brand as a product. 3. Motivation (Stories That Stick) Vision leaks; motivation decays. You have to keep the invite story alive. Every Sunday, highlight someone who came because of a friend. Baptism stories? Trace them back to the first invitation. What gets celebrated gets repeated, and nothing reinforces culture like stories told in public. Budget for story capture…video, social posts, short stage moments. Hire a part-time storyteller before you buy another ad campaign. The gospel doesn’t spread through algorithms.It spreads through relationships. If your strategy is “buy attention,” you’ll keep paying rent to platforms. If your strategy is “build inviters,” you’ll own the asset … trust. The most persuasive message your city will hear about your church won’t come from your page. It’ll come from your people. Stop buying marketing. Start building inviters. Ready to See Growth Again? If you’re tired of guessing what drives church growth, join Rich Birch for the free Church Growth Launchpad workshop. In just 60 minutes, you’ll discover a simple framework thriving churches use to build momentum and reach more people—without adding more to your plate. Walk away with a clear 90-day plan you can put into action right away. Wednesday, November 12th at 12noon ET / 9am PT Free online training for pastors and teams who want practical results. Save My Seat