

Therapist Uncensored Podcast
Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP & Ann Kelley PhD
Ranked as one of Apple’s Top 10 Social Science podcasts, Therapist Uncensored delivers trusted, science-backed insights on mental health and secure relationships. With over 11 million downloads worldwide, this female-led, independent podcast puts you right in the therapy room, making powerful psychological insights accessible and actionable. Co-hosts Sue Marriott, LCSW CGP and Ann Kelley, PhD break down complex ideas into practical wisdom you can use immediately. They’re joined by top neuroscientists, world-renown relationship experts and outside-the-box perspectives to share cutting-edge research and strategies for building stronger connections with yourself and others. Shownotes at www.therapistuncensored.com Transform how you understand your mind, your relationships, and yourself.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Oct 30, 2019 • 1h
TU107: What is Somatic Experiencing With Guest Abi Blakeslee
Trauma is not a life sentence. We are rapidly learning what works to reverse the effects of stored injuries and today we will explore one treatment version of that, called Somatic Experiencing.
First a shout out to a listener who connected us to our guest today, Ali Capurro – thank you! And to everyone else please note that we love these kinds of connections are always open to hear from you on who you think would deepen this conversation of earning security.
In This Episode of Therapist Uncensored,
co-host Sue Marriott explores Somatic Experiencing with Dr Abi Blakeslee. This interactive deep-dive takes you into the Somatic Experiencing process and provides hope and confirmation that healing trauma is possible through integrated treatment of the brain, the body, and the mind!
The Foundations of Somatic Experiencing (SE)
Founded by Dr Peter Levine – author of best-selling books “Waking the
Tiger- Healing Trauma”, and “In an Unspoken Voice”
SE is based on the study of how animals in the wild process and recover from stress and trauma.
Focuses on working directly with the nervous system to help people reorganize the non-conscious survival adaptations developed by the sub-cortical or lower brain
Definition of Somatic Experiencing
the experience of body in the present moment.
What SE Looks Like in Practice
Present-centered because the healing happens in the here-and-now.
It’s a process of following what is is happening in the body and taking a pause from the trauma content to down-regulate the amygdala to a state of safety before moving forward.
“The trauma’s not in the event. It’s in the nervous system.”
The Nervous System
Getting “Unstuck” – Healing Trauma Through Body Awareness
Pendulation – Peter Levine defines that as the expansion of contraction of all things moving between expanded States and contracted States.
Orienting Exercise
The Biological Model of the Threat Response Cycle
Wild Animals Versus Humans During Threat
Cycle:
Orient – aware of something in environment
Defensive Orienting – sense threat
Moving Into Social Interaction –
Moving Into Fight and Flight – these are active defense responses
Increased sympathetic arousal, burst of movements,
Moving Into Freeze – passive defense response
Heart rate goes into a slow state like for hibernation. Digestion slows down, hello heart rate variability circulation. There’s nothing pumping to the arms and the legs, so everything shifts into this near death state
Back to Exploratory Orienting
Working With the Nervous System
Tracking Sensation – describing sensations happening in the body as they are happening
Noticing Movement Patterns – acknowledging the shifts that occur
Completion of Defensive Responses – allowing the body to carry out the response desired (runnint, punching, kicking, etc) but VERY SLOWLY
Sympathetic Discharge When Coming Out of Freeze or Down From High Sympathetic Charge
Impala and the Baboon Video
Grounding Exercise
Neuroception vs Interoception
Neuroception is the lower brain assessment of safety/threat in the environment.
Interoception is the awareness of one’s own internal states and can be learned over time.
Who is Dr Abi Blakeslee:
Dr. Abi Blakeslee is faculty at the Somatic Experiencing Trauma Institute and Foundation for Human Enrichment. She is additionally Dr. Peter Levine’s legacy faculty at Ergos Institute for Somatic Education. Dr. Blakeslee holds a Ph.D. in Clinical and Somatic Psychology and is a licensed marriage and family therapist. Her dissertation, with a committee that included Dr. Daniel Siegel, generated original research on the role of implicit memory in healing trauma. Dr. Blakeslee integrates SE with clinical research, secondary trauma interventions, and the psychobiological principles of attachment and shock trauma. She treats individuals, couples, children and families in her clinical practice. Dr. Blakeslee teaches and consults worldwide. She lives in Bozeman, MT with her husband and enjoys the snow, mountains, and rivers with her three young children.
Resources:
Transcript and .MP3 of Orienting and Grounding Exercises
What is Somatic Experiencing?
Secondary Trauma in the Workplace: Tools for Awareness, Self-Care, and Organizational Response in Montana By Dr Abi Blakeslee
Toddler Trauma: Somatic Experiencing, Attachment, and the Neurophysiology of Dyadic Completion by Joseph P Riordan SEP, MAPS; Abi Blakeslee SEP, CMT, MFT, Ph.D, Peter A Levine Ph.D.
More Information About SE Founder Dr. Peter Levine
http://www.somaticexpereincing.com
For Professional Training in SE: http://www.traumahealing.org
Who doesn’t love special offers?
Our course is now available for a deeply discounted early release price! While this course is aimed toward clinicians (CE’s available!), all who are highly interested in deepening the security in yourselves and your relationships are welcome to participate. Price increases on October 22, 2019 when it is released to the wider public.
CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION
We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales (very fun swag!) to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare. We can only do that with the help of our Neuronerd private community.
By joining as a Neuronerd premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content and first shot at very unique study opportunities. If we’ve provided value then please check us out, poke around, make sure you feel comfortable and then join us today!
Tweet

12 snips
Oct 18, 2019 • 45min
TU106: What Actually Heals in Therapy with Psychoanalyst Nancy McWilliams
Learn what actually works in therapy.
It’s hard to verbalize the problem with “evidence-based” models of care, but renowned psychoanalyst and psychologist Nancy McWilliams does just that. She further describes what happens in quality depth-oriented therapies such as psychoanalytically-informed, attachment-oriented therapy, and integrates the neurobiological aspect that Freud started that has now been confirmed.
Who is Nancy McWilliams?
Nancy McWilliams, PhD, ABPP, is Visiting Professor in the Graduate School of Applied and Professional Psychology at Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, and has a private practice in Flemington, New Jersey. She is on the editorial board of Psychoanalytic Psychology and has authored three classic books on psychotherapy, including the award-winning Psychoanalytic Diagnosis, Second Edition: Understanding Personality Structure in the Clinical Process. Dr. McWilliams is an Honorary Member of the American Psychoanalytic Association and a former Erikson Scholar at the Austen Riggs Center in Stockbridge, Massachusetts. She is a recipient of the Leadership and Scholarship Awards from Division 39 (Psychoanalysis) of the American Psychological Association (APA) and the Hans H. Strupp Award from the Appalachian Psychoanalytic Society, and delivered the Dr. Rosalee G. Weiss Lecture for Outstanding Leaders in Psychology for APA Division 42 (Psychologists in Independent Practice). She has demonstrated psychodynamic psychotherapy in three APA educational videos and has spoken at the commencement ceremonies of the Yale University School of Medicine and the Smith College School for Social Work.
Show Notes – Psychoanalytic Perspectives on Therapy with Nancy McWilliams
Psychoanalytic Perspective, Trauma & Attachment Based Treatment
• Challenges – academic and scientific
• Short term focused
• Technique driven
• However, deprives individuals of the time needed to establish secure attachment to therapist, develop motivation to change, feel root feelings, etc.
• Psychoananalytic Perspective
• Humanistic-evidence based relationships
• Proving and disproving Freud
Trauma treatment history
• Long term Therapy
Benefits
• Devoted Therapist
Negative Transference
“Difficult patients” typically are the ones that evoke parts of ourselves that we don’t like. Our own ugliness, our own badness, all of that. And again, that goes back to long-term treatment, but also long-term treatment of ourselves, you know, as doing our own work and really, you know, a lifelong process.
Research on non-verbal communications and what works in therapy.
Learning the defenses and what lies underneath
• Narcissism/soft toss
• Borderline
• what would you advise for people to get the most out of their therapy or any close relationship that they’re in? Do you have thoughts about that?
If you enjoy this episode you may also enjoy these:
TU105: Narcissism, What is Going On Under the Defense w Sue Marriott & Ann Kelley
TU90: Avoidance and the Difficulty Opening Up with Guest Robert T. Muller
TU41: The Dark Side Of Therapy: Recognizing When The Therapeutic Relationship Goes Bad
Resources:
Psychoanalytic Diagnosis by Nancy McWilliams (textbook for therapists and students)
To Know and to Care – A_Review of Psychoanalysis by Nancy McWilliams
A psychodynamic formulation masterclass by Nancy McWilliams
In Conversation Wih Dr Nancy McWilliam
The Therapeutic Presence In Psychoanalys by Nancy McWilliams
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone: A Therapist, HER Therapist, and Our Lives Revealed – Lori Gottlieb (Sue read this at Dr. McWilliams suggestion and found it hilarious, poignant and much like therapy occurs in real life. Highly recommended.)
Who doesn’t love special offers?
Our course is now available for a deeply discounted early release price! While this course is aimed toward clinicians (CE’s available!), all who are highly interested in deepening the security in yourselves and your relationships are welcome to participate. Price increases on October 22, 2019 when it is released to the wider public.
CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION
We’re on Patreon!
Become a Super Neuronerd, a Gold Neuronerd or an Out and Proud PLATINUM NEURONERD today!
Join our exclusive community of Therapist Uncensored Neuronerds for just $5 a month!
Gain access to a private community and exclusive content.
Help us create a ripple of security by sharing the science of relationships around the globe!
NEURONERDS UNITE! Click here to sign up.
We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales (very fun swag!) to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare. We can only do that with the help of our Neuronerd private community.
By joining as a Neuronerd premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content and first shot at very unique study opportunities. If we’ve provided value then please check us out, poke around, make sure you feel comfortable and then join us today!
Last thing, we talk about a lot of deep stuff and people can begin to come alive and feel things. We can’t take you on as a client but we DO encourage you to get help if you are interested in examining your life or exploring pain in your past. Face to face local therapy recommended where you can, however many people cannot access private individual therapy for any number of reasons, so we found a service that offers online therapy in many countries and many languages that is affordable. Please use our link and you’ll get to try it for free. Let us know your experience of it no matter what but so far we’ve heard only good things – try it out!!!
Tweet

Oct 3, 2019 • 45min
TU105: Narcissism – What is Going on Under the Defense with Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley
Hey everybody, we are BACK and ready to take off on Season 4!!! Wahoo!
Narcissism – This time we focus on how it’s created and what is going on behind the narcissists defenses. Later we will address Malignant Narcissism, which is in a class all to itself! It deserves an entire episode, but for today we will look at what causes it, healthy and pathological degrees of it and what is really going on under the hood of the person afflicted with narcissism.
We really heard the requests wanting to hear more about some of the diagnostic pieces of attachment, trauma and the relational sciences. Specifically, narcissism and borderline personality disorder are of great interest to many of you. We put our heads together about how to best do this in a way that honors those who are struggling with these issues and those in relationship with them. To do this, we are going to weave conversations about narcissism and borderline personality disorder throughout the season. It may be snippets in a podcast about something else, or entire episodes focused on these concerns.
Today, we’re going to get started on narcissism.
Greek version of the myth:
Narcissus, was the son of River God Cephisus and nymph Lyriope. He was known for his beauty and he was loved by God Apollo due to his extraordinary physique.
Narcissus was once walking by a lake or river and decided to drink some water; he saw his reflection in the water and was surprised by the beauty he saw; he became entranced by the reflection of himself. He could not obtain the object of his desire though, and he died at the banks of the river or lake from his sorrow.
According to the myth Narcissus is still admiring himself in the Underworld, looking at the waters of the Styx.
Healthy Narcissism (!?)
We all have some element of Narcissism and if we don’t, we get run over in life. We don’t want to be a doormat but we also don’t want to be on a High Horse above it all. We all have narcissism, it’s healthy entitlement.
Functional narcissism is about your sense of Self, healthy entitlement and being inside yourself, and really rolling with who you are as a person. It’s being confident instead of being overly in-tune to others opinion of you.
Problematic Narcissism
If it’s a character trait rather than a moment in time, it’s all about defense. This defense protects the smallness and inadequacy and shame at it’s core, and to compensate, grandiosity is born. That or the opposite, which we will discuss, but if I attack the hell out of myself then I protect myself from you having less than positive feelings about me because I beat you to it.
Basically, it’s about deriving self-esteem from outside affirmation in order to maintain internal validity.
Narcissism is an injury to the Self, where we’ve had to give ourselves up in service of the other or blow ouselves up to feel “enough”.
It is associated with the avoidant/dissmissing attachment category, or the blue side of the attachment spectrum.
Narcissistic Tendencies Versus a Disorder (from a Psychologist’s Perspective)
It’s only in the much higher degree and more rigid degree of the trait that we would call it disordered or problematic. This is NOT a judgment. We mean it’s problematic for the person who suffers from it and that it infiltrates most every relationship to a point that it significantly impairs daily functioning or social relationships. Not that a person with true Narcissistic personality disorder would notice this distress, because everyone around them are “stupid” or “the best.” You can imagine stupid one’s are differentiated from them and the best one’s reflect their version of themselves.
Narcissistic Injury:
Example: The blue side – (avoidance/dismissive attachment) is a defense, whether we live there or whether we travel there. When we feel very deeply vulnerable but can’t tolerate that experience, we pull into what we call a narcissistic defense to avoid an injury.
We need a balance of healthy narcissism (affirmation from others to build our identity) and narcissistic injury (feeling hurt or injured if criticized or put down).
Grandiose Narcissism
This one is easy to spot and you can feel it because when their light shines on you, it feels so good. You feel so special and it’s amazing and you would almost do anything for them. If you’re mirroring them back and making them feel good, then you may get that light. But anything can happen where that light will move. And once that light moves, it is dark, and it is painful because that disconnection is tremendous, you holding on to them but they’ve moved on to the next shiney thing.
We are sorry to report what you probably already know, they were relating to you not from a place of a connection, but from a place of their need to be validated.
Negative Narcissism or Depressive Narcissism
Big grandiose narcissism isn’t the only issue, there is also the equal and opposite side of the coin. It’s basically “I am so horrible. I am worse than anybody on the planet”, which makes me very special in my badness.
What grandiose narcissism and negative narcissism have in common is the feeling of pulling away from a sense of connection or community and seeing yourself from the view that the risk of being in a related place is too much.
The Truth:
Inside every grandiose narcissist, there is this highly insecure, shame-filled child.
And inside every negative narcissist, there is the image of the Big Self that is not realized.
If somebody lives in this place and really has that very early narcissistic injury, they are compelled by short term image. They would rather look good in the moment, but they’re not as concerned with the ongoing things like integrity and morality and trust over time.
When stricken with the problem, there’s not awareness of it so it’s hard to be compelled to look at it, there is so much to lose.
How Does Narcissism Develop
A common scenario is a person had narcissistic parents. This person was valued with what they brought to the parent for their role, not so much for who they were.
There’s always a judgement, even if the verdict is positive, they’re being evaluated.
So things are good or bad. They are good or bad. So, if you’re in a parent’s light, there’s a term that is important to understand called narcissistic extension. So, what happens for a child is that they learn that if I’m tap dancing or smiling or being good in a way or adoring – whatever it is that lights the parent up, then we’re good.
But if I begin to be mad, or differentiate, so that the parents are going to have to see inside of me instead of me see inside of them, then the connection is cut off.
Narcissistic Extension
This is when we have learned to support the other person’s ego by giving them what we know that they want. As kids we get highly skilled at reading a scene, knowing the unspoken and responding as wished. This is part of what causes the injury to the self, because in the midst of all that, where the heck are You?
If a child turns to their own needs and that parent feels that as a Break and is activated by it, it’s suddenly unsafe to tune in to their disapproval or distance. So we’d rather give ourselves up than lose our connection.
Often if you are in this dynamic, your achievements are a reflection of your parent’s worth.
Children and Achievement
Another way that you can create someone that struggles with narcissistic tendencies is to orbit the child and then the child believes they are the center of the universe. 🙂 Well they ARE the center of the universe for a fast minute, but that should only last a SHORT time. And truly they are only the center of your universe for their parents, and you do them no favors making them think they are extra-special OVER other children. They were shriveled raisins like everyone else and it is OXYTOCIN that make us think our coneheaded babies are THE VERY BEST BABY EVER. I mean, they are, of course, but only to us. We don’t want them growing up thinking they have to be the best, most special specimen of humanity to be Ok. Right?
If we keep propping our child up (over an extended period of time) into the most special thing in the universe and don’t give them natural, “no, you’re irritating. No, you’re this. No, you’re that” (Deflation), then they’re going to really be vulnerable to these narcissistic injuries later, and they won’t be able to tolerate boundaries or distress or bad grades or whatever that reflects their normalness. Not sure that’s a word but we will keep it it’s ok. 🙂
When children are over-inflated by parents they also know that they’re probably not THAT great. There’s an inconsistency there that can promote a need of a false self.
When you’ve learned early on that there’s a need to mirror back your caregiver, then things like your own needs, your own vulnerabilities, can be experienced as humiliating. We’re not allowed to be needy, emotional or negative or whatever it is that we’ve been shut down for.
Underneath the Narcissism
People that struggle with narcissism will have to devalue and even humiliate people at times.
Mostly, the need for inflation is rooted in shame and the feeling that must be something fundamentally wrong with my own three-dimensional self.
Shame is toxic if lived in, because shame induces this way of being ultimately rejected, so to have an underlying source of shame that you can’t tolerate having, you have to develop all sorts of defenses to not actually even recognize that it’s shame (i.e.: criticalness).
A narcissist sees things as a reflection of themselves. So because of that, they need to annihilate that in you. If you’re too close, you cannot have weaknesses because it’s a reflection on myself. And one of the ways that comes out is the criticism and putting you down.
Success is scored and discussed because you don’t get in a better place than I must deal with what that feels like.
Important note:
Narcissism and narcissistic defenses are not a conscious thought. In fact, much of this is implicit, automatic and instinctual.
So, believe it or not, the scorn, the critical kind of rage is almost automatic.
The reason it’s there is almost about survival for a narcissist.
What Do We Do About It?
Recognize the automatic process and the behavioral aspects – understand that this is about human beings that want to be loved.
To help someone move out of narcissistic tendencies, hold them kindly and softly while you give them feedback.
Question the narcissistic injury from early on and start with the recognition of the intolerance of yourself or intolerant of others.
Know that you are loved and valuable and not perfect. You don’t have to be idealized, and you don’t have to be perfect. When you’re not perfect, it doesn’t mean you’re on the ground.
Accepting non-perfection is being able to accept feedback with humility and not being injured by it.
Admit a shortcoming and move on without excessive apology
Being in the Green
If you find yourself relating to any of these things, know that we’re all human messes, not better or worse than anyone else. If you admit a shortcoming, it doesn’t mean that you’re bad. As a matter of fact, it means you’re joining in this world of imperfect human beings.
The green is not perfection.
The green is knowing. And it’s the integration, rather than the denial, of areas that are hard for us, our shadow in this loving way and the ability to stay connected to people.
Final Thoughts
Remember, even the most arrogant narcissistic person out there can be just excruciatingly wounded by criticism. If you can, see them with compassion. They wouldn’t have to inflate if they felt that great about themselves. See the young scared child in them. This might help us be able to both stay in three-dimensional self, not lose ourselves, and see them in a way that they really need. The reason they’re puffing themselves up is because they want to be loved, and they want to be connected. It is not to hurt anybody They’re very scared, and it’s hard to remember that somebody, underneath that defense, is really, really scared and doesn’t know it.
Resources:
The Drama of the Gifted Child, Alice Miller (You must read this if you have early trauma – title isn’t reflective of power of the book!)
Episode 93 on Polyvagal Theory w/ Dr Stephen Porges
Psychoanalytic Diagnosis by Nancy McWilliams (textbook for therapists and students, but stay tuned for way more articles etc from her in a future podcast)
Narcissism Infidelity and Trauma
Who doesn’t love special offers?
Our course is now available for a deeply discounted pre-sale purchase price! While this course is aimed toward clinicians (CE’s available!), all are welcome to purchase the course. Price increases on October 16, 2019 when it is released.
CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION
We’re on Patreon!
Become a Super Neuronerd, a Gold Neuronerd or an Out and Proud PLATINUM NEURONERD today! 🙂
Join our exclusive community of Therapist Uncensored Neuronerds for just $5 a month!
Gain access to private community and exclusive content.
Help us create a ripple of security by sharing the science of relationships around the globe!
NEURONERDS UNITE! Click here to sign up.
Tweet

Sep 25, 2019 • 55min
TU104: Attachment Science & the Single World With Becki Mendivil (Replay)
Becki Mendivil, expert in attachment theory, talks about the application of attachment science for individuals not seeking romantic relationships. The podcast covers personal experiences with attachment, the impact of different attachment styles on parenting, and the importance of recognizing ingrained patterns. The speakers also emphasize the power of expressing joy, the value of face-to-face communication, and changing perspectives on attachment styles. They discuss the challenges of avoiding attachment and the theme of isolation.

Aug 15, 2019 • 41min
TU103: Curiosity – One of the Most Powerful Tools For Connection (Replay)
Have you ever just sat back and observed a small child as they learn something new? There is this profound sense of awe and wonder with each new discovery they make. Kids are naturally curious. As adults, we tend to take what we know about the world for granted. But, through the eyes of a child, the world is an exciting mystery just waiting to be discovered! What if we told you that it is possible to experience that childlike curiosity in your day-to-day life, starting right now? What if we also told you that curiosity is one of the most powerful relationship tools we have? Curiosity is much more than a quest for knowledge and is not as simple as it seems.
In this episode of Therapist Uncensored:
Co-hosts Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott, invite you to rediscover curiosity and experience the world and your relationships from a revitalized perspective!
Why is Ann so obsessed with curiosity?!
Childlike Wonder:
Think about how a child sees things for the first time. It’s strictly curiosity. As we get older, the world becomes more predictable.
Being “In the Know” vs “In the Unknown”
When we think we know a lot, we limit ourselves. It takes a lot of security to be uncertain.
The neuroscience of curiosity
A willingness to embrace uncertainty and curiosity go hand in hand.
Attachment, curiosity, and anxiety
How does our attachment style affect our experience?
If you feel bodily anxiety in the questions you’re asking, you’re probably not in the right state. How can we learn to become truly curious about someone in a loving way if we lean towards the blue or red side of the spectrum?
If we’re on the blue side of the spectrum, how can we move out to a place where we’re curious.
If we’re on the red side, how do we move from asking questions out of anxiety to asking out of curiosity?
People who are curious about you are attractive, and we can tell the difference if they’re not really interested.
You get to be curious about your therapist.
Tips to cultivate curiosity:
Train your brain
Be aware of what’s happening in your body
Recognizing judgment
Are you judging people when they speak instead of listening to them? This is a kind of cognitive closure.
Slow down and stimulate your own curiosity with questions.
Look for novelty and discovery in your interactions. Early relationships often break up out of boredom. You can be curious about your anxiety related to asking questions and even share your anxiety with the person making you nervous. Sharing vulnerability brings people together.
Cultivate wonder and awe.
To review or learn about the different attachment styles, listen to:
TU59: Dismissing/Avoidant Attachment – Are You Cool, or just Cut Off?
TU60: Preoccupation in Relationships – Grow Your Security by Learning the Signs of Anxious Attachment
TU61: It’s Not Crazy, It’s a Solution to an Unsolvable Problem – Disorganized Attachment
TU79: Attachment Spectrum and the Nervous System, Quick Review with Updates
Who doesn’t love special offers?
Our course is now available for a deeply discounted pre-sale purchase price! While this course is aimed toward clinicians (CE approval for clinicians pending), all are welcome to purchase the course. Price increases on September 18th.
CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION
We’re on Patreon!
Become a Super Neuronerd, a Gold Neuronerd or an Out and Proud PLATINUM NEURONERD today! 🙂
Join our exclusive community of Therapist Uncensored Neuronerds for just $5 a month!
Gain access to private, more in-depth episodes and exclusive content.
Help us create a ripple of security by sharing the science of relationships around the globe!
NEURONERDS UNITE! Click here to sign up.
We’ve partnered with Audible! Our listeners get a free audiobook plus a 30-day free membership. Cancel at any time!
GET MY FREE BOOK!
Tweet

Aug 1, 2019 • 51min
TU102: Finding Neurological Safety through Relationships, with Guest Bonnie Badenoch (Replay)
The Power of Co-Regulation
Explore the myth of self-regulation, the natural neurobiology of co-regulation and it’s capacity to engage safety and heal trauma. Learn about using interpersonal neurobiology (IPNB) and Polyvagal Theory to establish safety and security in therapy and in relationships.
Therapist Uncensored co-host Sue Marriott LCSW CGP talks with author and therapist Bonnie Badenoch about the concept of using safety to reshape your neural landscape through authentic relationships. Badenoch guides us through her progression of building a bridge between science and practice to cultivate the best therapeutic mind.
You’ll learn how exercising “happy humility” and compassion can allow for an ideal presence in our day-to-day life using our autonomic nervous system. Also, special hats off to Steve Porges and polyvagal theory.
0:00-30:00
What creates safety? How do our internal systems want us to be received?
Sympathetic activation happens when there’s a need to control something in light of an obstacle.
Internal systems challenge to remain in an open and receptive state. Polyvagal theory and Steve Porges.
How can we explore the relationship between safety and curiosity and best use the language of “safety,” versus “comfort” and “discomfort”, especially towards the beginning of therapy and in new relationships?
Badenoch contends that there’s no such thing as a maladaptive experience; that humans are always adaptive and require co-regulation.
What’s the difference between co-regulation and auto-regulation? Is there a “myth” of self-regulation? Discussion of ideal parent figure protocol.
Badenoch explores the connection between co-regulation, neural circuitry and forging relationships in your life.
30:00-60:00
Social Baseline Theory is what happens to our perceptions when someone we trust is with us. The difficulty and pain of tasks is always reduced when we’re with a trusted beloved and this relaxes our amygdala response.
Badenoch walks us through her experience of feeling safe during and between client sessions.
It’s key to have mutual, caring, receptive relationships with people who are willing to listen rather than jump in and try to offer advice. Young therapists.
Everyone’s doing the best they can with what they have in their neural make up but how can we embody a therapeutic presence in the world through compassion or a “happy humility”?
Resources:
A Symphony of Gifts From Relational Neuroscience (1) Excellent PDF from Bonnie Badenoch
Being a Brain-Wise Therapist: A Practical Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology [2008] Badenoch
The Brain-Savvy Therapist’s Workbook [2011] Badenoch
The Heart of Trauma: Healing the Embodied Brain in the Context of Relationships [2017] Badenoch
The Heart of Trauma Healing the Embodied Brain in the Context of Relationships by Steve Porges!
For our listeners!
Our long-awaited Advanced Course is launching soon! Purchase today for the lowest price possible. Pre-sale pricing ends September 18.
CLICK HERE TO PURCHASE
Join Us On Patreon
For as little as $5 a month you can join our exclusive community of Therapist Uncensored Neuronerds to gain private, more in-depth episodes AND to support production of this podcast to provide access to the science of relationships across the globe.
YES SIGN ME UP FOR PATREON, OR FIND OUT MORE, click here!
THANK YOU to all of our current Patrons!!
Tweet

Jul 14, 2019 • 49min
TU101: Treating Attachment Disruptions in Adults With David Elliott (Replay)
We knew we had to interview Dr. Elliott upon finding his book, Attachment Disturbances in Adults, Treatment for Comprehensive Repair(2016). It immediately became Sue’s current favorite read and that is saying a lot!
We cover quite a lot in this podcast, especially about treatment, but if that still isn’t enough, these show notes are PACKED with PDF’s of great material offered by Dr. Elliott! Below you will find 4 full PDF handouts about the salient ideas of their synthesis of treatment for adults with attachment disruptions.
In today’s episode you will hear about why attachment matters, background thoughts on insecurity and prevalence, brand new (to the US) and updated attachment research and then we mostly focus on how to apply all this knowledge with clients with attachment issues, and ourselves.
Dr. Elliott introduces our audience to the 3 Pillars of Comprehensive Treatment: Ideal Parent Protocol, Metacognition and Fostering Collaborative Capacity. While he touches on them all, please download the 4 PDF attachments provided below, and start by reviewing the Overview. If for any reason you have trouble getting them, contact us and we will shoot them over to you!
Dr David Elliott’s Bio:
Dr. Elliott received his Ph.D. in Psychology in 1989 from Harvard University. His clinical training while at Harvard included externships at the Tufts University Counseling Center, the Outpatient Psychiatry Clinic of St. Elizabeth’s Medical Center in Brighton, Massachusetts, and a clinical psychology internship at McLean Hospital, the psychiatric teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School. He also completed a post-doctoral fellowship at McLean Hospital, where he worked on the Adolescent and Family Treatment Unit and at the hospital’s mental health outpatient clinic. He was licensed as a Psychologist in Massachusetts in 1990, and in Rhode Island in 1993.
Recognizing from an early age that there are many dimensions to human experience, any and all of which can contribute to well-being or to difficulty, Dr. Elliott has maintained a commitment to learning and understanding the whole range of human possibility — from the deepest confusions and struggles of psychosis, to the patterns of personality that create personal and relational conflicts, to the development of the self in ways that promote both independence and intimacy, and to higher levels of growth that allow for flourishing and even a recognition of oneself as beyond the limits of the personal self.
Four PDFs
Overview of the Three Pillars Model of Attachment Treatment (Brown & Elliott, 2016)
The Five Primary Conditions that Promote Secure Attachment (Brown & Elliott, 2016)
Levels of Metacognitive Skills (Brown & Elliott, 2016)
Fostering Collaborative Capacity and Behavior (Brown & Elliott, 2016)
Additional resources for this episode:
Daniel Brown, co-author of Attachment Disturbances in Adults This is his current website, which focuses on his meditation and spiritual development activities.
Attachment Disturbances in Adults Treatment for Comprehensive Repair (2016) Daniel Brown andDavid Elliott
Clinical Application of the Adult Attachment Interview Edited by Howard Steele and Mariam Steele Our favorite clinical reference for those that want to learn much more deeply about using the AAI to treat attachment and learn about its usefulness with various populations.
Video of Strange Situation to familiarize yourself with Mary Ainsworth and later Mary Main’s phenomenal work.
These and other resources have been collected for you on our Resources page!
If you appreciate this work you can help it continue by becoming a Patron – ie. a super fan, or what we call Neuronerds. Get access to a private community, direct access to us and more content Click here to sign up for as little as $5 a month.
You can also help us by subscribing on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify or Podbean to name a few and by leaving a review so others can discover this cool science. Remember, sharing is caring!
Tweet

Jul 8, 2019 • 54min
TU100: Reflections and Favorites From 100 Episodes
100 Episodes and Going Strong! A Review of Our Most Popular and Referenced Episodes
Tune in for a review of our listener’s favorite episodes and back stories about the evolution of Therapist Uncensored with co-hosts Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott. This is a show hosted by 2 therapists who share the most usable science on attachment relationships, psychotherapy, and trauma. It combines both host lead conversations and interviews with top experts in their respective fields – neuroscientists, therapists, researchers, musicians, pop-culture celebrities, and so on – that share their wisdom about relationships.
Today we celebrate starting with colleague Patty Olwell, and evolving everything from our messaging, our website, our audio and editing, and our co-host relationship.
This is the last show of Season 3, BUT we will be back with new shows by early September. In the meantime, we will be re-playing some of these favorites. We look forward to our next season of deepening our conversations on attachment, neuroscience, polyvagal theory, depth psychotherapy, sexuality, and more!
Most Popular Episodes By Everyone, Including Us!
Known as “the bundle” of attachment, these episodes summarize the attachment spectrum and have building security at their core. They are, by far, the most referenced, reviewed, and appreciated!
Episode 59: Dismissing/Avoidant attachment. Are you cool or just cut off?
Episode 60: Preoccupation in Relationships-Grow your security by learning signs of Anxious Attachment
Episode 61: It’s not crazy, it’s just a solution to an unsolvable problem – Disorganized Attachment
Other Popular Episodes Include:
*Note: listed in order of discussion plus a brief summary of the show conversation
Episode 54- The Stress Response System –Attachment Across the Lifespan
specifically looking at the elder years and how our attachment system affects us as caretakers of our parents or as the senior who may be undergoing the various losses inherent in aging.
Stephen Porges – Episode 93: Polyvagal Theory in Action: The Practice of Body Regulation
The father of Polyvagal Theory!
fat led to groundbreaking shifts in our understanding of how the nervous system responds to threat and trauma.
Dan Siegel – Episode 16: Inside The Mind of Dr. Dan Siegel
Father of interpersonal neurobiology
Discussed how the current political, international and climate crises could be viewed as a chance to transform human connection. He called for us all to become pervasive leaders.
Alan Sroufe – Episode 56: How We Come To Define Ourselves, Attachment Research Across The Decades
If you’ve ever wanted to know how much you can predict a person’s development years in advance, then you’ll enjoy our conversation with Dr. Alan Sroufe.
his research findings over the years and how insecure and secure attachment tendencies can develop and affect an individual through their lives.
Bonnie Badenock – Episode 83: Establishing Neurological Safety Through Relationships
discussed how exercising “happy humility” and compassion can allow for an ideal presence in our day-to-day life using our autonomic nervous system.
Sympathetic activation happens when there’s a need to control something in light of an obstacle.
Internal systems challenge to remain in an open and receptive state.
Patricia Crittenden – Episode 96, 97, & 98
One of the originators of attachment theory
studied under Mary Ainsworth
Ep 96: Attachment and Self-protective strategies
Ep 97: Dynamic Maturation Model (DMM)
Ep 98: Diving deeper into the DMM of Attachment – our summary
Stan Tatkin – Episode 12: If It’s Not Good For You, It’s Not Good For Us
talking about understanding how attachment plays out in Long term relationships
In order to get over hidden shame, you need to expose it to safe people.
Shame can only be healed interpersonally.
Different cultures social constructions of shame.
Joining in sharing shame is very powerful tool. Connecting right brain to right brain.
Popular Episodes On Sexuality
Episode 3: Different Sex Drives Are We Screwed?
Esther Perel – Episode 46: Redefining Infidelity – On Love and Desire in Modern Relationships
Dr Susan Ansorage – Episode 71: Speakably Sexy: Communicating To Make Sex Hotter and Relationships More Alive
Doug Braun-Harvey – Episode 42 & Episode 43: Sexual Vitality-Refreshing Our Understanding of Sexual Health
Discussing love and desire in intimate relationships.
promote ways of having a healthy dialogue with partners – deshames sexual desire differences, and
Research on how sexuality can manifest differently in our bodies
we often make assumptions based on our own experiences of sexuality…what our partner(s) are feeling and this leads to hurt and misunderstanding.
The rule of variability – speaking in gendered terms is not our aim – but recognizing the differences in sex drives, sex roles and physiology can be useful.
6 principles of sexual health – add pleasure back into the conversation about healthy sex ,and the whole conversation changes
The balance between pleasure and safety as a way to think of sexual health – “Sexual debut” vs losing our virginity“
Headlines – Neuroscience In The News: Current Events That Bring Attachment and Neuroscience Into Our Living Rooms
Taking on current events and helping to draw out the science about how our headlines are related to attachment and neuroscience of everyday living and stress.
Episode 41: How To Handle Post Election Tensions – Tips for the Holidays and Beyond
Episode 68: Separation at the Border, Compounding trauma and Insecurity
Relational science professionals have a lot to offer to understand the human rights event that is unfolding on the US-Mexico border.
Our podcast has been all about promoting security in ourselves and our loved ones, and a primary component to this is access to your caregiver when you are young. It effects our biology, or persistent sense of ourselves and our view of the world.
Long term effect on these children-citizens of the world – our neighbors. If we help to breed insecure attachment, what long term effects does it have?
Episode 80: Nervous Systems in the News – Dr. Blasey Ford, Sexual Trauma Stories and the Power of Patriarchy
Bringing in Polyvagal theory into such a HUGE and important dialogue- the freeze response in sexual trauma which surrounds shame, the deepening of trauma, why people hold back reporting due to shame and the misunderstanding of this in interpreting what is abuse
Attachment is about safety rather than secure connection-if we sense a safe, out of danger, we can then activate the present and empathetic response of connection with higher regions of our mind/body moving from autonomic nervous system to social engagement
Healing Attachment Through The Three Pillars
Dr David Elliott – Episode 34 Treating Attachment Disruption in Adults
Dr Daniel Brown – Episode 87: Treating Complex Trauma
Goal of our podcast was to bring this kind of wisdom and insight from scholars about treatment to our listeners and these two are invaluable!
Both discuss es the 3 essential ingredients of effective and efficient treatment for many clinical issues such as anxiety, depression, addiction, PTSD and personality disorders.
Both discuss treatment on the anxious preoccupied side of the attachment spectrum (red side of the spectrum) and rectifying impaired self-development, chronic levels of anxiety, and chronic compulsive caretaking
Episodes Specifically About Psychotherapy
Dr Louis Cozolino –
Episode 36 The Neuroscience of Psychotherapy
Episode 89: Neurofluency in Therapy, Work, and Life
Episode 39: Getting What You Want From Therapy – The Essentials of a Therapeutic Relationship
Episode 41: The Dark Side of Therapy-Recognizing When The Therapeutic Relationship Goes Bad
Episode 7: What Group Therapy is and 5 Reasons You Should Try It
General Topics
Episode 81: How Good Boundaries actually Bring Us Closer with Juliane Taylor Shore
boundaries have nothing to do with whether you love someone or not. They are not punishments, judgments or betrayals.
“Jello wall”: Stop and slow down all the input coming towards you so you can ask, “Is this true or not true?” and “If it is, is this about me or not about me?” This allows you to view the world around you without getting hurt. Allows you space to reflect and be in your own system.
Dr. Steve Finn – Episode 51: Conquer Shame By Understanding The Science Behind The Feeling
Differentiating shame and guilt. Shamelessness and debilitating shame are both toxic and yet there is a version of these feeling that is quite healthy.
we discuss the contemporary research and the biology of this emotion and practical implications for your everyday life. Shaming and repairing is healthy, never shaming is not. Guilt is really healthy shame.
Physical effect of shame and biology.
Episode 66: Lessons from the single-not-dating world on using attachment science in real life with Becki Mendivil
How we can impact our everyday relationships at work. Bring up specific examples of approaching your child with more delight, your coworkers etc
Episodes About Music
Episode 45: Music, Emotions and Therapy and Interview With Bob Schnieder- Love of Music
Episode 44: Your Brain On Music, How Music affects your mind, Memory and Happiness
Episodes On Parenting
Episode 29: Understanding Adolescent Self-Consciousness From a Brain-Wise Perspective
Episode 47: Attachment Insecurity and Secure Parenting with Tina Payne Bryson
Episode 72: Attachment Parenting vs the Science of Attachment
More General Topics
Episode 17: The Biology of Motivation and Habits: Why We Drop The Ball
Episode 88: 6 Seps to Increasing Your Felt Sense of Security
People seemed to really like the applicable nature of this one
Sit up, eye contact, gentle smile, slow down, ground self (methods) prepare and practice
Kristen Neff – Episode 73: Building Grit Through Self-Compassion
This is not feel-good, la-la, therapy-talk, it’s real science.
Learn the important distinction self-esteem and self-compassion
one can lead to psychological instability, self-criticism, stress, competition and difficulty within ourselves, our relationships and our culture.
Treating yourself as your own best friend.
It’s NOT a free pass, or being easy on yourself.
It can be “fierce” and “protective” and “motivating.”
Tina Adkins – EP 74: Mentalizing: A Critical Component for Secure Relating
Dan Hardick – Ep 62: The Luv Doc Dating and Relationship Advice From the Trenches
irreverent and bitingly honest insights on the dating scene and relationships that survive.
Doc decades of listening to the lives, troubles and fantasies of Austin’s singles.
Find out how people make assumptions about others and tend to overestimate themselves when finding a partner.
Bottom line: based on your dating profile, would you date yourself? Have fun with this one and check out his column below!
Richard Hill – Episode 67: A Practical Technique for Calm and Confidence
Mirroring hands
Episode 95: Oxytocin, Dogs & Pets In General As Attachment Figures
Episodes On Mindfulness And Meditation
Kelly Insellman –
Episode 52: Using mindfulness Movement and Yoga to Manage Arousal
Episode 52.5: Meditation
Episode 63 Living with Cancer: The 6 Principles of Emotional Healing insight both for those directly experiencing the trauma of cancer and for those who love and support them.
Sarah Peyton – Episode 40: Meditation And Neuroplasticity Provide a Path To Healing
specific interventions and meditations that foster brain plasticity and empathy towards ourselves and others
They explore what kinds of language can we use that lets brains relax and move into a space of fluidity
Tweet

Jun 27, 2019 • 1h 1min
TU99: Food, The Body, Trauma, & Attachment With Guests Paula Scatoloni & Rachel Lewis-Marlow
What if we flipped the script and learned to see our body as a messenger that needs to be heard rather than an obstacle to be conquered when it comes to our relationship with food? When we take physiological perspective, we learn that the body has much to say not only about food but also emotional regulation and our basic human needs for attachment and defense.
Using the sensory information, attachment system and working with defenses.
Who are our guests on this episode, you ask? Well here ya go, they are pretty bad-ass and they were interviewed by Dr. Ann Kelley:
Paula Scatoloni, LCSW, CEDS, SEP
Paula is a somatic-based psychotherapist, Certified Eating Disorders Specialist, and Somatic Experiencing™ practitioner in Chapel Hill, NC. She has worked in the field of eating disorders for over two decades. Paula served as the Eating Disorder Coordinator at Duke University CAPS for nine years and has taught extensively on the etiology and treatment of eating disorders through workshops, professional trainings, and conferences. She co-developed the first intensive outpatient program for eating disorders in the U.S with Dr. Anita Johnston. She is the co-founder of the Embodied Recovery model and the Embodied Recovery Institute in Durham, NC.
Rachel Lewis-Marlow, MS, EdS, LPC, LMBT
Rachel is a somatically integrative psychotherapist, dually licensed in counseling and therapeutic massage and bodywork. She is a Certified Advanced Practitioner in Sensorimotor Psychotherapy and has advanced training and 25+ years of experience in diverse somatic therapies including Craniosacral Therapy, Energetic Osteopathy, Oncology massage and Aromatherapy. Rachel She is the co-founder of the Embodied Recovery model and the Embodied Recovery Institute in Durham, NC. provides ongoing training and supervision to clinical and support staff in the programmatic implementation of the Embodied Recovery model. In her private practice in Chapel Hill, NC, Rachel works with trauma, eating disorders, and dissociative disorders.
TU99 Shownotes (are these not awesome or what? Patrons help us be able to do this, thank you you know who you are.)
Typical Treatment Model
Bio-Psychosocial model
Bio: has been usage of pharmacology, re-feeding, nutritional rehabilitation, and yoga
Psycho part has been education about emotion and emotional tolerance, dialectical behavioral therapy, supportive therapies to support emotional processing and cognitive distortions, cognitive behavioral treatment to address the distortions, and then try to change the behaviors by changing the cognitions,
Social part: family and dynamics around having a place of belonging and one’s sense of belonging in the world, the culture, & the family
Usually a treatment team: dietician, a therapist, family therapist, a psychiatrist, a physician
Typical View of Recovery
Goal: to get somebody to eat a prescribed amount of nutritional food in order to achieve a range of BMI or body size or shape
eat it in what we call a normative style, which is a very relative term
Focus is on how behaviors are a response to an attitude towards the body itself
What’s Missing?
Being curious about what the body is saying and expressing through the eating disorder behaviors
Shifting the Perspective: The Embodied Recovery Model
The Embodied Recovery Model is Somato–Psycho-Social. It expands the role of the body to include anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, movement, and posture.
The 5 Core Principles of the Embodied Recovery Model
The 5 Core Principles facilitate the intersection between somatic organization, subjective experience of self, and basic human needs for attachment and defense.
Shifting from bio-psycho-social model to somato-psycho-social model.
Directly resourcing the body so that it becomes a resource in recovery rather than an obstacle to recovery.
Collaborate with the body at the physiological level to support the infrastructures that govern emotional regulation, memory, and sustained healing.
Shifting the focus from what people with eating disorders are saying about their bodies to what their bodies are saying about what it means to be alive (defense structures) and what they need to thrive (attachment system).
subjective experience meaning it’s not so much what people think about themselves but it’s actually the experience of the body and through the body
Redefining recovery as an experience of embodiment rather than the absence or reduction of eating disorder symptoms.
the idea that when we’re actually working with our body, and we know how to dialogue with it then, it’s going to support us and our relationship with food.
Somatic Scaffolding
Distorted body image:
what’s happening is that the visual image of the body through the eyes and the interoceptive message (signals from the body inside) don’t match up.
the visual information that they’re getting is impacted by the internal sensations they’re having and thoughts attempt to make sense of that
really loud internal signals translate to interoceptively feeling huge because the internal noise is huge
Embodiment: an intersection of our own awareness and our physical container-where our consciousness and our physical body intersect
Eating disorder behaviors are a window into places where we are not a fully embodied
3 main areas examined in Somatic Scaffolding: the information (Sensory System), what’s being processed (Attachment System), and how it’s being processed (Defense System).
Sensory Integration System
Not working optimally due to genetics or trauma (generational, gestational, birth, childhood, etc).
Sensitivity:
Someone who is highly sensitive to textures, smells, sound, etc. experiences an internal experience of threat, which impacts the ventral vagal system
Vagal system gets overloaded and overwhelmed and starts to shut down. Then we go into sympathetic or dorsal states, which do not give support for effective ingestion, digestion, and elimination.
Have to pay attention to what helps resource sensory system
(Learn more about this in TU93 and TU94 on Polyvagal Theory)
Attachment System
the relational dynamics that build the capacity for attachment (See TU 59, 60, & 61 for more info on different attachment styles)
is illustrated in our basic developmental movement patterns of yield, push, reach, grasp, and pull that exist not just involuntary movement but in the primitive reflexes cellular movements
the expansion and contraction movements build the capacity to connect in attachment and disconnect in our acts of defense
Learning to yield
yield – the perfect, relaxed state where you’re fully who you are in relationship with something else
Being able to embody that phase of action, that rest, is an important action. It’s not the absence of something it is the presence of something, right. And when we can do that that is an essential part of the cycle of ingestion and digestion. It helps us know enough I’m done. I can just finish…it supports this capacity of I’m enough there’s enough I’ve had enough.
Defensive defensive system – the impact of trauma
trauma – something that is fundamentally impactful to us on a foundational level
Is the impact truncating our attachment system that brings us into connection, or is it truncating our ability to defend ourselves and separate?
Is a defense system intact or was there something that has been incomplete and is still trying to resolve
“If we haven’t been able to fully complete a defensive action, our nervous system is dysregulated and isn’t going to support ingestion, digestion and elimination.”-Rachel Lewis-Marlow, Co-founder of The Embodied Recovery Institute
we don’t want to try to get someone to engage in an attachment action when the reason that their body is deregulated is because it hasn’t been able to complete a defensive action.
Window of tolerance
A robust window of tolerance enables us to identify things like:
when we’re hungry & when we’re full
regulate body temperature
regulator physiological & emotional state
reach out to others when in distress
move from sympathetic arousal to parasympathetic with ease and flow
Smaller window of tolerance
caused by something that happened with the primitive reflexes
trauma physiology running the system because of birth trauma or attachment deficits
we live outside this window most of the time and develop self-protective strategies
“[These strategies] can look like anything we do in order to feel more regulated. And with eating disorders, what’s happened is that those behaviors are the only choice they have in order to come back in the window.” -Paula Scataloni, Co-founder of The Embodied Recovery Institute“
Effective treatment
looks at how the attachment dynamic manifests in all the different layers of organization, and how does each member of the treatment team address it.
training the nervous system to do what it didn’t get to do in the first three years of life (Learn more about Neuroplasticity in TU40 and Neurofluency in TU89)
Ensuring that the individual’s body has the physiological and neurobiological capacity to handle the treatment strategies first
Encompasses all elements of somatic scaffolding
Brings in and examines the attachment, defensive, regulatory, and co-regulatory capacities of the entire family system
“If we just treat and help the client develop regulatory capacity but the family system is not supported, then we’re just helping them in the office and then sending them out into a system that has struggles.” – Paula Scataloni, Co-founder of the Embodied Recovery Institute
Resources:
Embodied Recovery Institute Website
Understanding The Connection Between, Eating, Attachment, And Trauma By Paula Scatoloni, LCSW, CEDS, SEP
Trauma-Informed Approaches to Eating Disorders
Dr. Walter Kaye’s website
Bonnie Bainbridge Cohen’s website
This is the heart of Therapist Uncensored – the reason we started this podcast. We are so honored to be able to bring this kind of excellent content to you guys and to help you understand yourself and the ones you love.
Like this one? You may be interested in this one, too.
TU93: Polyvagal Theory in Action – The Practice of Body Regulation With Dr Stephen Porges(Opens in a new browser tab)
If you appreciate this work you can help it continue by becoming a Patron – ie. a super fan, or what we call Neuronerds. We are approaching our 100th episode (can you believe it!!!) and we are having special offers up until our 100th episode! Click here to sign up for as little as $5 a month.
You can also help us by subscribing on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify or Podbean to name a few and by leaving a review so others can discover this cool science. Remember, sharing is caring!
Tweet

Jun 13, 2019 • 27min
TU98: Dive Deeper into a Model of Attachment Science (the DMM) by Ann Kelley & Sue Marriott
Dive deeper into this new (to us) model of interpreting attachment science and discover how to apply it into your daily life. Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP and Ann Kelley PhD have fun breaking down the last two episodes where Dr. Patricia Crittenden so generously shared her model called the Dynamic Maturational Model (DMM). Focus is on personal and clinical importance in this last of a 3-part series on the DMM.
Before we begin:
A’s (Red in the DMM)=Historically referred to as Blue on TU
B’s (Blue in the DMM)=Historically referred to as Green on TU
C’s (Green in the DMM)=Historically referred to as Red on TU
AC’s = Historically referred to Tie Dye on TU
**Note: We know the colors may be a bit confusing, but it is important to us that you receive information as Dr Crittenden has published it. It is by happenstance that our colors are the same (with the exception of tie dye), but they represent different thinking and behavioral patterns. When we refer to color in the episodes and in the show notes, we are referring to the colors we have historically used on the TU podcast and the letters and self-protective strategies of the DMM. This is only in order to maintain consistency and make the information more easily understood by our listeners. However, the colors as shown in the slides and as listed above, are the way Dr Crittenden uses them in her fantastic work!
Brief Hierarchy of Attachment Theory:
There’s a lot of similarity between the more familiar Mary Main et al ABC-D model of attachment and the Patricia Crittenden’s DMM interpretation of attachment, but there are also some very important differences.
What’s in A Name?
Dynamic Maturational Model (DMM) – potentially intimidating mouthful, BUT let’s break it down
What it means:
Sue and Ann share their take on Dr Crittenden’s walk through the developmental process that happens in attachment from infancy to adulthood. (Listen to Episode 96 and Episode 97). As we mature into different stages of our life, our needs and self-protective strategies (what the DMM helps us learn) we use change accordingly. The beautiful thing about the DMM is the way it incorporates culture, sexuality, key relationships, and danger/safety into the attachment mix.
Speaking of safety….
One key difference between the DMM and traditional attachment models is the emphasis on SAFETY rather than SECURITY.
According to the DMM:
-attachment is about the dyadic relationship in danger, it does not just live in the person
-we take in information from the environment (parent in infancy) and shift this into “behaviors” or self-protective strategies.
-these strategies develop to protect us. They are our brain’s way of helping us reduce danger and increase connectedness by creating closeness, proximity, and safety.
Information Processing
-It’s physiological.
There are 3 systems:
Somatic: what does our body feel…our heart, our stomach feel
Cognitive: how we process the information, how do we make meaning
Emotional: what’s coming up
Bottom line, we can learn from our body. They are connected but not hierarchical.
Security = Integration of all 3 of these info systems (Therapist Uncensored’s model ie. getting to the green)
The Attachment Spectrum
As you move out on the spectrum, (in the DMM, it’s a circle, which is also really cool) we begin to inhibit or exaggerate information based on the response in our environment/the response of our caregivers.
We will tend to lean Blue or Red or Tie Dye (check out episodes 59, 60, 61 for more detailed info on each color).
NOTE: These colors are Ann and Sue’s Attachment & Regulation Spectrum, not colors from the DMM.
It is NOT conscious and forms in the first 2 years via Neuroception.
Neuroception (listen to our episode on Polyvagal Theory for more info) tells us, as infants, that if we cry, our caregiver will react a certain way. We inhibit information according to what will keep us safe and bring us closer to our caregiver.
The distortive and inhibitive behaviors that develop are functional adaptations to meet the infant’s needs. It is a way of accessing the parts of the caregiver that are available and also keeping the infant out of disorganization.
Think organized chaos – the infant may be highly dysregulated but in an organized way rather than disorganized. Exaggerating, de-emphasizing or dissociating, etc. when there is danger is how we, as infants, learned to keep ourselves sane and intact.
Bringing Crittenden’s work out of the research and into real life
What we love:
-Dr Crittenden’s inclusive approach to applying attachment theory across the lifespan.
-Dr Crittenden’s stance that self-protective strategies are functional adaptations to keep us as safe.
–The compassionate and understanding perspective of the self-protective behaviors we use every day.
To summarize the DMM, Dr. Crittenden’s own words say it best:
“My work is about all the things that we do when we’re in danger and how stunningly competent even our infants are at figuring out what you need to do to stay safe -here in this family where I was born with these parents who live in this culture facing these problems right now and these other problems that this culture knows about historically.”
“Which strategy in this model is best? Every behavioral strategy is the right strategy for some problem, but no strategy is the best strategy for every problem. We need them all… If it protects you, it is the right strategy.”
Final Thoughts:
We love that the DMM really brings a fresh perspective to the field of attachment.
Healing happens when you understand what got encoded in your body on an unconscious level from your personal experiences and your family and cultural history and then learn and implement strategies to help you move from Red or Blue or Tie Dye to Green.
Security looks like the integration of all of these different dimensions that Crittenden talks about. It’s not having to distort any information and accepting and loving your whole self.
YOU deserve this. Every single one of us deserves this.
This is the heart of Therapist Uncensored – the reason we started this podcast. We are so honored to be able to bring this amazing research to you guys and to help you understand yourself and the ones you love.
If you appreciate this work you can help it continue by becoming a Patron – ie. a super fan, or what we call Neuronerds. We are approaching our 100th episode (can you believe it!!!) and we are having special offers up until our 100th episode! Click here to sign up for as little as $5 a month.
You can also help us by subscribing on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify or Podbean to name a few and by leaving a review so others can discover this cool science. Remember, sharing is caring!
Resources:
Raising Parents Attachment Representations and Treatment (2008) by Patricia Crittenden
The Organization of Attachment Relationships Maturation, Culture & Context (2000) by Patricia Crittenden
“The secret lives of children” 2017, in Clinical Child Psychology and Psychiatry by Patricia Crittenden
“Dynamic Maturational Model of Attachment and Adaptation – theory and practice” PDF Ed. Ari Hautamaki
Tweet


