

No Way Out
Mark McGrath and Brian "Ponch" Rivera
Welcome to the No Way Out podcast where we examine the variety of domains and disciplines behind John R. Boyd’s OODA sketch and why, today, more than ever, it is an imperative to understand Boyd’s axiomatic sketch of how organisms, individuals, teams, corporations, and governments comprehend, shape, and adapt in our VUCA world.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Jun 13, 2023 • 1h 16min
Explainable AI: Active Inference, Free Energy Principle, Spatial Web & Boyd's OODA loop with Denise Holt | Ep 25
Join Denise Holt, Spatial Web podcast host, as we delve into the secrets of active inference AI, the potential of the Spatial Web, and the influence of the Free Energy Principle. Discover the differences between LLMs and active inference AI, and explore the integration of active inference with the Spatial Web protocol. Learn about the journey to interoperability, the action-perception loop, and the concept of the Markov blanket. Prepare for a captivating discussion on AI, the future of the internet, and the incredible potential of active inference AI.

Jun 1, 2023 • 1h 48min
Unlocking the Power of Ancient Wisdom for Modern Leaders with James Gimian | Ep 24
Send us a textWhat if ancient wisdom from The Art of War could improve your modern leadership skills? Join us for a captivating conversation with James Gimian, co-author with Barry Boyce of The Rules Of Victory: How To Transform Chaos and Conflict; Strategies from The Art of War, as we explore the interconnected whole and how it applies to setting objectives and understanding complex adaptive systems theory.Discover the importance of being present and self-aware in leadership, as we discuss situational awareness, the challenges of self-assessment, and the need for emotional intelligence training. Learn from examples in the aerospace industry and even a Taylor Swift song as we delve into the difficulty of self-awareness. Additionally, we explore military conflict management techniques and their applicability beyond warfare, revealing the triad of view, practice, and action as a tool for effective leadership.Finally, we discuss how shifting our view and leadership strategies can lead to success, by looking at the interconnected whole through emulation, not imitation. We examine the power of mindfulness, psychedelics, and narrative-based approaches, diving into how these practices have been used in the US military and beyond. Don't miss this insightful episode that will empower you to thrive in complexity and become a more effective leader.Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.To learn more please visit: http://www.rulesofvictory.com/NWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...

May 26, 2023 • 41min
Denver Nuggets & Florida Panthers: Secrets of High-Performance, Flow & Resilience with Digit Murphy | Ep 23
Send us a textAre you ready to unlock the secrets of high-performing teams in sports? Join us as we dive into the captivating world of flow alongside our esteemed guest, world renowned ice hockey coach Digit Murphy. Discover how peak skill and flow states allow athletes to achieve incredible feats on the court, the ice, and even in the sky as fighter pilots.Together with Digit, we dissect the astonishing recent success of the Florida Panthers in the NHL playoffs and uncover how their disruptive play and dynamic application of "Fast Transients" have pushed them into the spotlight. We also delve into the importance of resilience and understanding the concept of mismatches (surprise) in both sports and life, with Digit sharing her immense coaching experience to shed light on distributed leadership and team science.Finally, we explore the unique perspectives offered by women athletes and the role of mental performance in sports, drawing parallels to the Florida Panthers' impressive run in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation with Digit Murphy as we investigate coaching, resilience, and the power of flow. Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.NWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...

4 snips
May 24, 2023 • 2h 10min
Insider Secrets Behind the Toyota Production System & Boyd's OODA Loop with Charlie Protzman | Ep 22
Send us a textCharlie Protzman is an international business consultant, multiple Shingo Prize-winning author, speaker, trainer, leadership coach and Implementer in Lean Business Delivery systems. Charlie has over 36 years of experience in Materials and Operations Management and has saved his clients millions of dollars. Specialties include training and implementing Lean Thinking / CI for manufacturing, healthcare, government, and service industries. Charlie is particularly experienced working with all types of process variation in assembly processes and is an expert at baton zone (bumping) line balancing.Charlie has participated in train the trainer for Scrum The Toyota Way, Agile, The Flow System, and advanced training for the Cynefin Framework.Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.Lean Leadership Basics Charlie Protzman on LinkedInBusiness Improvement Group (BIG) Lean Consulting NWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...

31 snips
May 17, 2023 • 1h 26min
Make Sense of Complexity and Co-Create Value with Viv Read | Ep 21
Viv Read, a consultant specializing in systems change and stakeholder engagement, shares her insights from Brisbane, Australia. She discusses the challenges executives face in balancing short-term success with long-term innovation. Viv emphasizes the necessity of adapting approaches in complex organizations and fostering collaboration, especially between diverse communities. The conversation also touches on the importance of mentorship and storytelling in navigating change, advocating for a people-centric strategy to drive meaningful transformation.

May 8, 2023 • 1h 16min
Sun Tzu, Boyd and Wardley: The Art of Strategy with Erik Schön | Ep 20
Send us a textErik Schön is an executive and strategist who has successfully developed and deployed strategy for over 20 years in small, medium and large organizations. From hacker, software researcher and system engineer to leader, executive and strategizer, Erik is leading global organisations in complex product and service development. He is the author of The Art of Strategy - Steps Towards Business Agility and The Art of Leadership - Purpose and Integrity for Sustainable Success in Turbulent Times, both published by Yokoso Press. Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.Erik Schön on LinkedInFollow Erik on TwitterThe Art of Strategy: Steps Toward Business AgilityThe Art of Leadership: Purpose and Integrity for Sustainable SuccessNWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...

May 1, 2023 • 49min
War, Conflict and Lessons Learning: Building Better Leaders with Aaron MacLean | Ep 19
Send us a textAaron MacLean is a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Previously, he was senior foreign policy advisor and legislative director to Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas. Aaron served on active duty as a U.S. Marine for seven years, deploying to Afghanistan as an infantry officer in 2009–2010. Following his time in the operating forces, he was assigned to the faculty of the U.S. Naval Academy, where he was the 2013 recipient of the Apgar Award for Excellence in Teaching. Aaron received a B.A. in philosophy and the history of math and science from St. John’s College, Annapolis, and an M.Phil. (Dist.) in medieval Arabic thought from the University of Oxford. He has been a Boren Scholar and a Marshall Scholar and lives in Virginia, where he was born.Chapters in this episode:Avoiding Knowledge of War is DangerousDo Systems Incentivize War?To Be or To Do: Boyd's ChallengeIs There a Better Way to Get Better?Boyd: People, Ideas, Things. Always in That Order!Ponch is an Aviator, and Culture is HUGEAccountability is Crucial to True LeadershipBoyd is So Much More Than "OODA Loop"Quantico is a "Boyd School"Reducing Boyd is a DisadvantageBoyd Focused on Conflict, Which is EverywhereStudying Conflict Builds Better LeadersTeam Training and Team Science in HealthcareMeasuring What MattersA Thank You and a Gracious Invitation That Ponch and Mark Accept!Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.Aaron MacLeanFollow Aaron MacLean on TwitterSchool of War with Aaron MacLean (Apple Podcasts)School of War with Aaron MacLean (Spotify)NWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...

Apr 25, 2023 • 1h 26min
Improving Patient Safety: Team Science, Big Data and Lean with Dr. Dan Low | Ep 18
Dr. Dan Low, Chief Medical Officer of AdaptX and expert in clinical systems improvement, dives into the importance of data for patient safety. He discusses how real-time feedback can revolutionize healthcare practices. The conversation covers the need for effective communication methods, like SBAR, and parallels with aviation safety. Dr. Low shares insights on evolving leadership styles, emphasizing teamwork and empowerment in enhancing workflows. He also explores optimizing surgical efficiency through situational awareness, psychological safety, and continuous learning.

21 snips
Apr 17, 2023 • 1h 5min
Embracing Uncertainty: The Cognitive Dimension with Gary Klein, PhD | Ep 17
Send us a textGary Klein, PhD is an internationally renowned expert in decision-making, creativity, and leadership. He is a research psychologist, most famous for pioneering the field of Naturalistic Decision Making (NDM), along with his groundbreaking recognition primed decision (RPD) model, which has been used to revolutionize the way the Marines and Army train their officers. Dr. Klein has written several books, articles, and chapters about these topics, such as Sources of Power: How People Make Decisions, The Power of Intuition: How to Use Your Gut Feelings to Make Better Decisions at Work, and his most recent book, Snapshots of the Mind. He is the founder and CEO of Klein Associates, a consulting firm that specializes in decision-making, creative problem solving, and leadership development. Dr. Klein is a much sought-after keynote speaker and workshop facilitator, and has also developed the widely-used Learning-Focused Leadership model. His work has been honored with awards from the American Psychological Association, the Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology, and the International Society for Performance Improvement.Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.Gary Klein, PhD Gary Klein on LinkedInSnapshots of the MindLinking Expertise and Naturalistic Decision MakingRed Team HandbookNWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...

5 snips
Apr 4, 2023 • 1h 26min
Certain to Zen: OODA, IOHAI, Lean, and More with Chet Richards, PhD | Ep 16
Send us a textChet Richards is a retired Air Force Colonel, an independent consultant, and an author. He graduated from the University of Mississippi, where he also earned a PhD in mathematics. He served as an intelligence officer in the Air Force and as a strategy consultant and Lean theoretician. Chet is a certified yoga instructor and holds a Registered Yoga Teacher (RYT-500) certification with the Yoga Alliance. Colonel Richards is a colleague of the late American strategist John R. Boyd and is a gadfly-at-large for Boyd's ideas today. He has researched into the foundations of Boyd's strategy and has written "Certain to Win: The Strategy of John Boyd Applied to Business" and "If We Can Keep It" (on national security policy). He has a blog at slightlyeastofnew.com, which also has latest edits of Boyd's papers and presentations.Be sure to use the Chapters Feature on Apple and Spotify to quickly browse and navigate to segments of this episode.Chet Richards, PhD on LinkedInslightlyeastofnew.comTwitter: @FuentesDeOnoroCertain to WinAntifragile Being You NWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...