Conversing with Mark Labberton

“Things had radically changed. … They had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to a concrete hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community. If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you’re going through, and get the support you need. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton’s master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary “… not just overwhelmed, but really undone” “ … the possibility of ending my life …” Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community Beauty of friendship A magnificent extravaganza Sharing not just food but hope “Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” “For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day.” If you’re feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor. Seek community. “Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” (David Brooks, from the episode) There’s a growing chasm that divides the affluent and non-affluent in American society, and it’s perhaps most pronounced in higher education. The elite meritocracy suggests that we should reward individual ability, ambition, and accomplishment. But what is “merit” anyway? What is “ability”? And how do they factor in our idea of “a successful life”? In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for a conversation about elite meritocracy in higher education. Together they discuss the meaning of merit, ability, success, and their roles in a good human life; hereditary aristocracy and the populist backlash; power and overemphasis on intelligence; the importance of curiosity for growing and becoming a better person; the value of cognitive ability over character and other skills; the centrality of desire in human life; moral formation and the gospel according to Ted Lasso; ambition versus aspiration; and the impact of meritocracy on the political life and policy. About David Brooks David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project. Show Notes “How the Ivy League Broke America” (via The Atlantic) “The meritocracy isn’t working. We need something new.” Money and the elite meritocracy “Every nation has a social ideal. And for the first half of the twentieth century, and the last half of the nineteenth century, our social ideal was the well-bred man.” (e.g., Theodore Roosevelt to Franklin Roosevelt to George H.W. Bush) “Rich people rigged the system.” “Now, if you come from a family in the top 1 percent, your odds of going to an Ivy League school are seventy-seven times higher than if you come from a poor family. And a lot of schools around the country have more students in the top 1 percent than the bottom 60 percent.” “We now have this chasm between the children of the affluent and the children of the non-affluent.” Shocking stats: “By eighth grade, children of the affluent are four grade levels higher than children of the non-affluent. People who grew up in college-educated homes live eight years longer than people in high-school-educated homes, they’re five times less likely to die of opioid addiction, they’re twenty-two times less likely to have children out of wedlock, they’re two and a half times less likely to say they have no close friends.” “We’ve just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” Too much power What is “merit”? How do you define “merit”? Who has “ability”? IQ is not a good indicator of merit. “Our meritocracy measures people by how well they do in school. The definition of intelligence is academic ability.” “What’s the correlation between getting good grades in school and doing well in life? The correlation is basically zero.” “We measure people by how they do in one setting, which is the classroom. And then we use that to declare how prepared they are for another setting, which is the workplace.” “Augustine said, we're primarily not thinking creatures, we're primarily desiring creatures.” Leon Kass (University of Chicago): “What defines a person is the ruling passion of their soul.” “We become what we love.” Predominant emotion of fear Curiosity, the love of learning, and getting better every day “You’re plenty smart. You’re just not curious.” Tina Turner’s memoir, discovering her voice and self-respect. “What matters is being a grower, the ability to keep growing.” “Getting old takes guts.” (David Brooks’s eighty-nine-year-old father) A sense of purpose The drive for the future, to be bold Henry Delacroix and the genius of America to drive for boldness, hard work, growth, and energy Moral materialism Vincent van Gogh said, “I’m in it with all my heart.” Paul Cézanne and Émile Zola, L’Oeuvre Yo-Yo Ma, cello, elite performance, and passionate humanity: “I’m a people person.” “Look at these creatures. They’re amazing!” Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances “Social intelligence” is not really intelligence—it’s an emotional capacity. Individuals and teams “What makes a good team? It’s not the IQ of the individuals. It’s the ability to take turns while talking. It's the ability to volley ideas and to feed into a common funnel of thought.” Project Based Learning Most Likely to Succeed (documentary, High Tech High) The Hour Between Dog and Wolf John Coates Self-awareness and adeptness reading your own body Emotional agility “The mind is built for motion. That what we do in life, we don’t solve problems, we navigate complex terrains.” “We’re all pilgrims. And we’re all searching for the journey that will transform us. And so it’s, the mind is not this computer designed to solve problems. The mind has helped us navigate through a space. And if we do it well, then we become transformed.” Applying meritocracy to the 2024 election “If you segregate your society on IQ, You're inherently segregating on elitist grounds.” “The rebellion that is Donald Trump.” Jesus’s form of selection—“When Jesus was selecting his twelve, he didn’t give them all a bunch of standardized tests. … He saw that each person was made in the image of God.” “And to me, what (frankly) the Christian world offers us is a re centring of the human person.” Controlling the passions of your heart Christian humanism Ecce Homo Rene Girard and mimetic desire Ambition vs. Aspiration The gospel of Ted Lasso and David Brooks’s favorite definition of moral formation: “My goal is to make these fellas better versions of themselves on and off the field.” *Still Evangelical* (essay by Mark Labberton) “Am I yet evangelical?” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Our increasingly reactionary political environment doesn’t lend itself to nuanced, patient understanding of events like the 2024 re-election of Donald Trump. What historical and philosophical resources can help us gain insight and wisdom? How can we successfully know and encounter each other in such a divided society? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here. Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more. About David Brooks David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen (Random House, 2023). He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project. Show Notes A spiritual or emotional crisis we’re working out in American politics Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden’s Covid-19 overstimulation) Class divide is a generational thing High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the “Death of God” An exiled Republican “Confessions of a Republican Exile” (via The Atlantic): ”A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party.” “I’m a Whig.” (”Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.”) Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—”don’t revolutionize something you don’t understand.” You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care. Alexander Hamilton Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican Isaiah Berlin: “At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency.” “The capacity for self-critique Matt Yglesias Humble, introspective, and “how did we get so out of touch?” Racism and sexism are not what’s driving Trump voters “In my opinion, Donald Trump is wrong answer to the right question.” Mark Noll and America’s use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic Jonathan Rauch and “Epistemic Regime”: includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc. “There’s still a core of people who believe ‘if the evidence says x, you should say y.’” “The greatest victory in the history of the world.” Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility “Reality is constantly going to surprise you.” 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated Conservative book publishing *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks “The Stacking Stereotype” “A redistribution of respect” (away from large swaths of America and to elites) “The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials.” “… almost no Trump supporters.” “If you tell 51% of the country ‘Your voices don’t matter,’ people are going to get upset.” America changing beneath us High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence The moral teaching of the New Testament “People are unitary wholes.” “I became a Christian around 2013.” “Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don.” C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien’s Christianity “What it’s like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist.” Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith What is needed? “I was a 50-year-old atheist.” Chris Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditations of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn’t explain the world “If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…” “Be not afraid.” “The world just loves a human being that’s trying to act like Jesus.” David Brooks’s teaching at Yale The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy Day Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How should we respond to the anxiety, fear, and catastrophizing of Election Day? Is there an alternative to fight, flight, or freeze? Can people of Christian conviction stand firm, grounded in faith, leaning into the storm? In this special Election Day episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes Peter Wehner (columnist, the New York Times, The Atlantic) and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary) to make sense of the moral, emotional, and spiritual factors operating in the 2024 US general election. Together they discuss the emotional response to political media; faithful alternatives to the overabundance of fear, anxiety, and catastrophizing; how the threat of affective polarization divides families and friendships; biblical attitudes toward troubling or frightening political and cultural events; how to respond to vitriol, anger, cynicism, hate, and manipulative language; and how the church can help restore trust and be a faithful witness, standing firm through the political storm. About Peter Wehner Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships. Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia. About David Goatley David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995). In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment. Show Notes Anxiety, Uncertainty, and Worst-Case Scenarios The regular appeal to “the most important election of our lifetimes” Assuming the worst about others “We are at a fork in the road for a certain kind of vision of who we want to be.” “As an African American, many of us always live in the crosswinds.” Living with fragility, vulnerability, and uncertainty Hymn: “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand” Anger, Antipathy, and Fear Passions and beliefs—and an electoral system built to amplify those “They’re more amplified than in the past.” Families and friendships that divide over politics. Feeling like we “share a continent but not a country” Affective polarization—”There’s a sense of the other side being an enemy.” Catastrophizing Recalibrate, reset, and rethink Hoping that calmer heads prevail Church splintering and aligning with partisan politics “God will use all things—not that God intends all things.” The political balance wheel “Fear is not a Christian state of mind.” “Hope is based on something real.” “The long game for believers is to hearken back to the early church and remember that Jesus is Lord, and the emperor is not.” Political toxicity that infects the household of faith “We have to do all that we can to live with peacefully with each other.” Vitriol, hubris “It’s important to name things. … If you don’t name them—if you try to hide them—then you can’t begin the process of healing.” “Faith is subordinate to other factors that they’re not aware of.” The Era of Fear: What informs our fears? What can we do about our fears? Fear of the Lord that sets us free Firmness as an alternative to fighting or fleeing “Valuing the vibrant diversity of God” “Expand your reading.” Breaking out of conformity and homogeneity “Meeting the moment”: Inflection points in a human life or a society’s life—a moment for leaders to rise up, speak, and shape Example: Winston Churchill and Great Britain pre–World War II (from pariah to prime minister) Example: Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation and the agenda to make schools phone-free These aren’t the conditions for human flourishing “We’ve got to be faithful. We may not be successful.” Cultivating a political garden to prepare the soil for shared core values of decency, respect, fairness “… what we have loved, / Others will love, and we will teach them how” (William Wordsworth, “The Prelude”) Loving the right things Voting “Complicating my view of the world.” “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Before voting: “A prayer to submit myself to the will of God.” “Tell me how you came to believe what you believe … over time it can create a feeling of trust” “What don’t I see? What about my own blindspots?” Stunned by the profundity and sobering word that “God will not be mocked” Expressing convictions through voting Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

The history of racism has a parallel history of resistance. Courageous women and men have responded to injustice with lives of faith, hope, and love—bearing witness to the spirit of justice. They have inspiring stories we can learn from today. But who is willing to tell those stories? And who is willing to hear them? In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to discuss his new book, The Spirit of Justice—a summoning of over fifty courageous individuals who resisted racism throughout US history. The book is a beautiful quilt of stories and profiles, stitched together through Tisby’s contemporary cultural analysis. Jemar Tisby is the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism. He is a public historian, speaker, and advocate, and is professor of history at Simmons College, a historically black college in Kentucky. Recent Books by Jemar Tisby The Spirit of Justice *Available now I Am the Spirit of Justice *Picture book releasing January 7, 2025 *Stories of the Spirit of Justice Middle-grade children’s book releasing January 7, 2025 About Jemar Tisby Jemar Tisby (PhD, University of Mississippi) is the author of new book The Spirit of Justice, New York Times bestselling The Color of Compromise, and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college. Jemar is the founding co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast, and his writing has been featured in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Time, and the New York Times, among others. He is also a frequent commentator on outlets such as NPR and CNN, speaking nationwide on the topics of racial justice, US history, and Christianity. You can follow his work through his Substack newsletter, Footnotes, and on social media at @JemarTisby. Show Notes The Color of Compromise (available here)*—*the larger narrative of (Christian) America’s racist history Myrlie Evers Williams on her husband Medgar Evers’s death Myrlie Evers Williams: “I see something today that I hoped I would never see again. That is prejudice, hatred, negativism that comes from the highest points across America. She told us then with the candor that comes with old age, she said, and I found myself asking Medgar in the conversations that I have with him. Is this really what's happening again in this country? And asking for guidance because I don't mind admitting this to the press, I'm a little weary at this point.” Fighting for justice “Black people are born into a situation in which we are forced to defend, assert, and constantly so, our humanity. And that is in the midst of constant attacks on our humanity, big and small, whether it is the vicarious suffering that we see when there's another cell phone video of a black person being brutalized by law enforcement, whether it is, you know, We all have memories of the first time we were called the N word, uh, whether it is going into the workplace and wondering if you didn't get that raise or you were passed over for that promotion, if it had anything to do with the color of your skin, even subconsciously. And so we are born into a situation in which resistance is a daily reality.” Sister Thea Bowman, Black Catholic Mississippian Nun “Her holiness leaps off the page.” Simmons College, Louisville, KY Jim Crow Era: “How do you tell the story of the Jim Crow era without centering the white supremacy, the violence, the segregation—How do you center black people in that era?” William J. Simmons, Men of the Mark The history of Simmons College as an HBCU Ida B. Wells Harriet Tubman (Araminta Ross) and the Underground Railroad Nursing, training, service, and freeing the slaves Combahee River Raid (led by Harriet Tubman)—she received a full military burial “We need the spirit of justice because injustice is present.” Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn “And in all kinds of ways, black people chose to fight their oppression.” Romans 5: Suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character. Character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame. “Hope is a decision.” (Archbishop Desmond Tutu) “They chose hope.” William Pannell, Fuller Theological Seminary—My Friend the Enemy (1968) Rodney King and “the coming race war” William Pannell’s impact on Mark Labberton Film: The Gospel According to Bill Pannell “When you see what's really motivating people, what's really stirring up fear and hatred, which can lead also to violence. It's still around race.” Racial anxiety and politics: “This is no longer a white man’s America.” The Holy Spirit “I’m getting so Pentecostal in these days.” Psalm 11:7: “God is a God of righteousness. God loves justice.” “When I think about what exactly the spirit of justice is, I think it's the fingerprint of God on every human being made in God's image that says I'm worthy of dignity, respect, and the freedom to flourish. And when that is taken away from me because of oppression and injustice, I have this spirit within me to resist.” “The spirit of justice gives us that resilience, that strength to become determined all over again. This is not a power that we find within ourselves to get back up again every time the backlash pushes us back. It is a power. the supernatural power, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, that also empowers us for the work of justice.” How to make a difference The variety of black experiences Jemar Tisby’s first picture book and young reader’s edition Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Sometimes I’m not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.” (Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson) Growing up in Oakland, California, Jackie Thompson didn’t know that sociologists were referring to her neighbourhood as “The Killing Zone”—a part of the city with the highest concentration of homicides. Now, as senior pastor of Allen Temple Baptist Church, the Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson continues to serve the Oakland community throughout its ups and downs, offering a Jesus-centred vision of justice and hope, present to the pain and suffering of the city. In this episode Thompson joins Mark Labberton for a discussion of her local pastoral ministry in Oakland, California. Together they discuss Jackie’s life and experience as a one of the first women to be appointed senior pastor in a black Baptist church; her college experience at UC Berkeley; what it means to respond to the call of social justice and biblical faith; the blessings and challenges of pastoring a large black church in Oakland; how to centre local ministry on the pain and suffering of a community; the temptation of power; the political season and candidacy of Kamala Harris; and how to “fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.” About Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson Described as a transformational preacher, dynamic leader and ministry trailblazer, Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson is an inspiring example of what God can do with a life committed to the call. She currently serves as the beloved senior pastor of the Allen Temple Baptist Church in her native Oakland, California. Her 2019 election made history nationwide as the first woman called to serve as senior pastor of this historic African American Baptist Church founded in 1919. Before being called in this capacity, Thompson served as the assistant pastor at Allen Temple and as youth minister at Shiloh Baptist Church of Washington, DC, the first woman to serve in both capacities. Committed to excellence in scholarship, Thompson received her bachelor of arts in political economics from the University of California, Berkeley, and a master of divinity from Howard University School of Divinity in Washington, DC. While at Howard, she received the Nannie Helen Burroughs Award for Academic Excellence and the Henry G. Maynard Award for Excellence in Preaching and Ministry. Believing in the importance of both orthodoxy and orthopraxy, Thompson continued her studies at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, where she was awarded the doctor of ministry degree in African American church leadership. She is a member of the NAACP and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. Her activism and leadership have been recognized by various chapters honouring her with the Community Excellence Award and as Distinguished Woman of the Year. Among other honours, Thompson has been inducted into the distinguished Morehouse College Martin Luther King Jr. Board of Preachers. Thompson is a gifted preacher, administrator, and published author travelling and ministering extensively nationally and internationally, often in arenas previously unchartered by women. In addition, she has been called on by local and national print and electronic media as an opinion leader to offer perspective and hope amid the pressing issues of the day. She is currently on the teaching staff of the Berkeley School of Theology in the area of public theology and preaching. Her mission is to see transformation in the lives of others and is humbled by every opportunity to serve. Show Notes Learn more about Allen Temple Baptist Church: https://www.allen-temple.org/ Growing up in “The Killing Zone” in Oakland, CA “There was a really big difference in how we look at something and describe it and how the people who experienced it describe it themselves.” “At twelve years old, we started visiting all kinds of churches in Oakland, right? So I've been to every church just about storefront, larger church, every one.” The experience of Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland Matthew 28:18–20 Dr. J. Alfred Smith—one of the most beloved heralded African American pastors in the United States Restlessness Youth ministry in Oakland Social justice and biblical faith The power of a pastor: “I miss your voice in the choir!” Choir for young adults The ministry of Dr. J. Alfred Smith—”God was absolutely central and primary, and the point of action that held everything together. And then you had this galaxy of every kind of life experience that was being represented, talked about, honoured, celebrated from children to all, all generations and ages, but also women.” “Pastoring was never something I wanted to do. … But what happened was life.” “She’s a very dignified, prideful black mom. … And she said, ‘I don’t recognize you before.’” Trailblazing as the first female assistant pastor of a major black baptist church An imaginative tour of Oakland Oakland is a tale of two cities—the hills and the flatlands Shifting the narrative about Oakland, violence, justice, and power. “I believe part of our responsibility, particularly at Allen Temple, but not just Allen Temple, as people of faith, as people who say that we are followers of the way and that we believe in Jesus—that we call power structures to account.” “Fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.” Walter Brueggemann: “The numbness that can come with royal consciousness” Remaining connected to the epicentre of people’s pain Joshua crossing the Jordan: twelve stones to build a memorial Good Samaritan on the Jericho road The history of Oakland’s ups and downs Washington, DC, and the power centre of the world “There are no permanent friends. There are no permanent enemies. They’re just permanent interests. … What that taught me is that the players around the table will change. As long as the interest in the centre of the table stays the same, it does not matter how the players change.” Oakland as microcosm for other urban cities “The temptation is always power.” “I try and keep the centre of the cross with the vertical and the horizontal meet before the eyes of the people in a way that they can see it, that they can grab hold to it, and they can decide how that, that’s how will they, they centre and position themselves in there for the cause of the kingdom.” “What is the burden that you feel like you're primarily carrying?” “Sometimes I’m not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.” Comparing Obama’s nomination to Kamala’s nomination Focusing on the needs of the people Thompson’s preaching as centring the pain on a deeper centre of Jesus Christ Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When it comes to voting, how should we balance character and policy? “If I'm voting for a politician,” journalist David French suggests, “I have a test. One is: Do they have the character necessary for the job? And the higher the position they’re seeking, the more character that is necessary. And number two: Do they broadly agree with me on the most important policies?” In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes journalist David French (opinion columnist for the New York Times; formerly The Atlantic, The Dispatch, and National Review) for a discussion of character, policy, and principles for faithful, virtuous engagement in polarized American politics. French’s commitment to Christian faith, moral character, and reasoned policy has emerged from his experience as a former commercial lawyer, military lawyer, and former president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. A political conservative, French has throughout his career been an advocate for First Amendment rights, pro-life individuals and organizations, and the ideals of democracy. He describes himself as “an evangelical conservative who believes strongly in a classical liberal, pluralistic vision of American democracy.” Together, Mark and David discuss his Christian upbringing; his personal partisan commitments; the importance of character in party politics; the importance of nuanced and reasoned policy; why he’s voting for Kamala Harris in order to save conservative politics; two Bible verses for this election season; how to respond to our culture of fear; and how to secure a more courageous, loving, and humble politics. About David French David French is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, and previously wrote for The Atlantic, The Dispatch, and National Review. He is a New York Times bestselling author of Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation. He describes himself as “an evangelical conservative who believes strongly in a classical liberal, pluralistic vision of American democracy.” He is a graduate of Harvard Law School, the past president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, and a former lecturer at Cornell Law School. He has served as a senior counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice and the Alliance Defending Freedom. David is a former major in the United States Army Reserve. In 2007, he deployed to Iraq, serving in Diyala Province as Squadron Judge Advocate for the 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, where he was awarded the Bronze Star. Show Notes Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation “I was a First Amendment litigator with a writing hobby.” Background in the Acapella Churches of Christ: a Restoration Movement from the early-19th century “It turned into something kind of separatist, sectarian, and ferociously legalistic.” “I grew up with a real grounding. grounding and reading the Bible, which actually, ironically enough, was the seed of me leaving the church of Christ.” “I was a Cold War conservative and a conservative Christian. And they were related, but not, but they weren't inextricably tied together. So for me, my, you know, ideology was downstream of my faith, but I didn't think that my ideology was the inevitable result of my faith.” Pro-Life Activism Representing pro-life individuals Existential clash: the confrontation between the Soviet Union and the United States Why David French is voting for Kamala Harris in order to save conservative politics “My party loyalty has always been related to two things. One is the ideology of the party and the other one is the character of the party. And the party leaders and the people that I vote for, I've always had a character test and an ideological test.” Bad character and bad policy—”why would I be attached to that? There’s no claim on my loyalty there.” The importance of character “If the conservative perspective that I have wants to have any purchase in American politics, MAGA has to lose. Donald Trump has to lose.” Federalism: a practical understanding that smaller government is better. Republican Party increasingly embracing a pro-choice platform “If you're going to have a healthy two party system, the distinctions should be around good people of high character approaching policy solutions from different perspectives.” “One of these parties has sort of left the norms of American. political engagement.” “I voted for Mitt Romney more than Mitt Romney's probably voted for Mitt Romney.” “If I'm voting for a politician, I have a test. One is: Do they have the character necessary for the job? And the higher the position they're seeking, the more character that is necessary. And number two: Do they broadly agree with me on the most important policies?” “I have very little patience for those people who say I'm somehow not a Christian for voting for a pro-choice candidate. When they're voting for a pro-choice candidate who's been adjudicated a sex abuser, that is difficult for me to discern how that is a more Christian stance.” Clear, independent thinker Logical reasoning and courageous statements A living faith by which we think through ideas “There's a fine line between stubbornness and courage.” “In these last 10 years, I've really had to ask myself: Who are you really?” David French’s parents’ example of faith and virtue Learning from World War I and World War II history “Some of the worst things that have happened in American history have happened because people didn't want to do hard things.” “I think the sanctification process, though, is difficult. It means that you're being exposed to constantly your own sin is being exposed to yourself.” Mark asks: “What do you want Christian people, thoughtful, committed, curious, uncertain, tenuous Christian people to, to do between now and the election?” 2 Timothy 1:7—“God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love, and of sound mind.” Micah 6:8—”What does the Lord require of you, O man? What is good? To act justly, to love kindness, and to walk humbly before the Lord your God.” Ideological diversity: be curious, seek disagreement “If you just show affection for people and curiosity towards their views, anger tends to drain out of a room.” “College students are full of anxiety about conflict.” “Fear not.” The A Team—arming up for battle “And they find out that a lot of these folks that they were taught were going to be their enemies are actually just super kind, normal folks.” “They're equipping them to fight, not to love their neighbor, fight their neighbor, not love their neighbor.” Mark asks: “What handles would you give people in living in a fear dominated moment in American history?” “In receiving anger and fear, do not try to build up a bulletproof thick skin. … Because you know what that does? It often walls you off from legitimate criticism.” Thick skin, soft heart. “An enormous amount of fear is rooted in a sense—a feeling—of non-belonging and loneliness. Isolation and loneliness.” “People who are more isolated and alone are drawn to these authoritarian movements.” “Ease the loneliness, build the connection. … Lean into relationship and presence.” “It was just stunning to me that, against all evidence of scripture, Christians were consigning people to eternal damnation over a vote in a presidential election.” Miles Law: “Where we stand is based on where we sit.” Kindness, humility, not living a fear-based angry life “If you're in a community where the fruit of the spirit dominate, you can withstand a lot of disagreement.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“It’s sort of strange to think about beauty and horrible circumstances together. But I try, probably clumsily at times, to bring beauty to a thing that's really horrible. … But in terms of covering executions, there is just a void there. The main character always dies.” (Elizabeth Bruenig, from the episode) Despite sin, there remains an inherent beauty and goodness throughout creation … including humanity. And even in the most divisive circumstances, when we appeal to the beauty and horror in our shared human condition, we might be able to find common ground for mutual understanding and collaboration. And sometimes, in the best circumstances, we might even find a beautiful and life-giving encounter with the other. In this episode, celebrated journalist and self-described “avid partisan of humankind” Elizabeth Bruenig (staff writer for The Atlantic, and formerly the New York Times, Washington Post, and The New Republic) joins Mark Labberton to talk about journalism, her journey toward Catholicism, the complex moral and emotional lives of human beings, capital punishment and violence, and the prospects for introducing beauty into polarized politics and horrifying evil. About Elizabeth Bruenig Elizabeth Bruenig is a staff writer at The Atlantic. She was previously an opinion writer for the New York Times and the Washington Post, where she was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for Feature Writing. She has also been a staff writer at The New Republic and a contributor to the Left, Right & Center radio show. She currently hosts a podcast, The Bruenigs, with her husband, Matt Bruenig. Elizabeth holds a master of philosophy in Christian theology from the University of Cambridge. At The Atlantic, she writes about theology and politics. Show Notes Elizabeth Bruenig shares about her religious and philosophical background Bruenig shares about her journey toward Roman Catholicism The Eucharist and embodied experience of God The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist “I don't need to be studying and getting degrees, I need to just be living my life radically as a Christian.” Journalism, paying attention, and compassionate “I'm very interested in people and people's moral lives. Things like honor and shame, guilt—you know, very complex emotions—interest me a lot, and I think everyone has them all the time. People have these spiritual, ethical, moral struggles going on inside them. And so everybody is a little universe unto themselves.” What it means to be a Staff Writer Journalism with narrative, story, opinions, and arguments “I have found that to be a very successful way of garnering stories. It's just to listen to people.” “The first execution I ever witnessed, I witnessed for the New York Times, it was during Trump's spree of federal executions. I think they executed something like 13 people in six months, really unprecedented. I wanted to report on that.” Media witnesses as The Executions of Alfred Bourgeois, David Neal Cox, James Barber, Kenny Smith, and Alan Miller “I have had the opportunity to speak with men who were about to die.” “The Man I Saw Them Kill” “The idea of execution promises catharsis. The reality of it delivers the opposite, a nauseating sense of shame and regret. Alfred Bourgeois was going to die behind bars one way or another, and the only meaning in hastening it, as far as I could tell, was inflicting the terror and the torment of knowing that the end was coming early. I felt defiled by witnessing that particular bit of pageantry, all of that brutality cloaked in sterile procedure. So much time and effort goes into making executions seem like exercises of justice, not just power. Extreme measures are taken at each juncture to convince the public, and perhaps the executioners themselves, that the process is a fair, dispassionate, rational one. It isn't. There was no sense in it, and I can't make any out of it. Nothing was restored, nothing was gained. There isn't any justice in it, nor satisfaction, nor reason. There was nothing, nothing there.” Faith, the void of execution “I find that reading great essays summons language in me.” On Beauty and Being Just by Elaine Scarry “Beauty inspires reproduction” “It's sort of strange to think about beauty and horrible circumstances together. But I try, probably clumsily at times, to bring beauty to a thing that's really horrible. … But in terms of covering executions, there is just a void there. The main character always dies.” “I had a religious conviction going into the first execution that I was at that executions were wrong and it wasn't really based on anything that I could point to. I just had the, you know, very simple notion that killing people is wrong and that it's wrong in, in all cases, even if the person is a very bad person.” Two executions in the New Testament: the one Jesus halts, and the one that kills Jesus Execution as a subhuman act The logic of criminal justice system and capital punishment The difficulty of introducing beauty into polarized politics “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 8) Groaning beauty “All of creation groans under the weight of sin.” “The holiness of creation, the goodness of it, is so strong that it can't be, I don't think, entirely blotted out by sin. I just don't think that humans have the power to rob of beauty that which was made beautiful.” Finding beauty in visual culture, pop culture, museums, essay writing, and art On Beauty, Eula Biss— “… her prose, you know, glitters to me. I think it's fantastic. Not too melodramatic, restrained. And elegant.” Marilynne Robinson, imagination and beauty The political landscape Fears “I think when what's up for debate is like the rule of law, then I'm going to go with the candidate who whatever other faults is actually in favor of the rule of law. I think that's very important.” Assisted Suicide and Physician Assisted Suicide “I don't think I can write without bringing in theology, because it's so much a part of what I consider to be true. And so to give readers an honest view into what I'm thinking I have to provide the theological Issues that I'm thinking through.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We have to go back to the very basic thing of understanding our shared humanity. And we’ve departed a long way from that—even the best of us, I’m afraid. It is just stunning. I mean, we are such a danger to everything we value.” (Marilynne Robinson, from the episode) Today on the show, Mark Labberton welcomes the celebrated novelist and essayist Marilynne Robinson to discuss her most recent book, Reading Genesis. Known for novels such as Housekeeping, Gilead, Home, and Lila, she offers a unique perspective on ancient scripture in her latest work of nonfiction. In this enriching and expansive conversation, they discuss the theological, historical, and literary value in the Book of Genesis; the meaning of our shared humanity; fear and reverence; how to free people from the view of God as threatening; the complicated and enigmatic nature of human freedom; the amazing love, mercy, and long-suffering of God on display in the unfolding drama of the Genesis narrative; and overall: “The beautiful ordinariness of a God-fashioned creature in ordinary communion with one another.” About Marilynne Robinson Marilynne Robinson is an award-winning American novelist and essayist. Her fictional and non-fictional work includes recurring themes of Christian spirituality and American political life. In a 2008 interview with the Paris Review, Robinson said, "Religion is a framing mechanism. It is a language of orientation that presents itself as a series of questions. It talks about the arc of life and the quality of experience in ways that I've found fruitful to think about." Her novels include Housekeeping (1980, Hemingway Foundation/Pen Award, Pulitzer Prize finalist), Gilead (2004, Pulitzer Prize), Home (2008, National Book Award Finalist), Lila (2014, National Book Award Finalist), and most recently, Jack (2020). Robinson's non-fiction works include Mother Country: Britain, the Welfare State, and Nuclear Pollution (1989), The Death of Adam: Essays on Modern Thought (1998), Absence of Mind: The Dispelling of Inwardness from the Modern Myth of the Self (2010), When I was a Child I Read Books: Essays (2012), The Givenness of Things: Essays (2015), and What Are We Doing Here?: Essays (2018). Her latest book is Reading Genesis (2024). Marilynne Robinson received a B.A., magna cum laude, from Brown University in 1966 and a Ph.D. in English from the University of Washington in 1977. She has served as a writer-in-residence or visiting professor at a variety of universities, including Yale Divinity School in Spring 2020. She currently teaches at the Iowa Writers' Workshop at the University of Iowa. She has served as a deacon for the Congregational United Church of Christ. Robinson was born and raised in Sandpoint, Idaho and now lives in Iowa City. Show Notes Get your copy of Reading Genesis by Marilynne Robinson Mark introduces Marilynne Robinson and her most recent foray into biblical interpretation Overarching narrative of God’s time vs. Human time Theological, biblical, historical, and literary categories Why Genesis? Why biblical commentary? “Genesis is the foundational text, and God’s self-revelation is the work of Genesis.” The expansiveness of the creation narrative from the beginning of everything to two people hoeing in a garden. Elohim and the universal God-name Monotheism and the enormously cosmic assertion of the nature of God From cosmology to granular human existence Amazement and the Book of Genesis “God saw the intentions of our heart and they were only evil always.” Conjuring the idea of a vindictive God—as opposed to a merciful, long-suffering, and loving God “It's hard to wiggle people free from the idea that God is primarily threatening.” The role of fear in sin, temptation, and evil “I think the fall is a sort of realization of a fuller aspect of our nature, which is painful to us and painful to God. But it's our humanity.” From the book: “The narrative of scripture has moved with astonishing speed from let there be light to this intimate scene of shared grief and haplessness. There is no incongruity in this. Human beings are at the center of it all. Love and grief are, in this infinite creation, things of the kind we share with God. The fact that they have their being in the deepest reaches of our extensionless and undiscoverable souls only makes them more astonishing. Over and against the roaring cosmos, that they exist at all can only be proof of a tender solicitude.” Ancient Near Eastern mythology “Meaning cannot leak out of this. It’s absolutely meaningful.” Genesis is a “particular series of stories that are stories of the tumbling, bumbling, faithful, faithless, violent, peaceable, loyal, disloyal agency of human beings.” Mystery Theology as a vision, a revelation “The beautiful ordinariness of a God-fashioned creature in ordinary communion with one another.” The impact of Genesis in the history of our understanding of humanity, freedom, relationships, and so much more. Law as a liberation of one another: it limits your behavior and is emancipating to everyone around you. God’s patience with human freedom and the ability to go wrong The enigma of freedom “From the very beginning, the Bible seems aware that we are our enemy and that we are our apocalyptic beast.” “Our freedom is very costly. It’s costly to us. It’s costly to God.” Imagination and the dynamics of freedom “An enhanced reverence for oneself has to be rooted in a reverence for God.” “The idea of the sacredness of God and the sacredness of the self.” Fear and reverence “You are holding in your imagination … and helping us to see, feel, and hear the voices and see the actions of ordinary human beings, who are both (like Psalm 8), ‘a little lower than the angels,’ and at the same time, ‘we are dust and to dust you will return.’” Paying attention Marilynne Robinson’s upbringing, access to nature, access to books, and plenty of solitude Joseph and the ending of the Genesis narrative: How might the story of Joseph speak to our time? “We have to go back to the very basic thing of understanding our shared humanity. And we've departed a long way from that—even the best of us, I'm afraid. It is just stunning. I mean, we are such a danger to everything we value. We are a danger to everything we value. And the fact that we can persist in doing that or tolerating it … there we are, you know? … We've always been strange, we human beings.” The perplexity of freedom “The way that Joseph understands his history is a comment on the idea of divine time.” “Joseph did enslave the Egyptians.” “There is no bow to tie around anything. There's simply whatever it yields in terms of meaning and beauty and so on.” Matthew 28 and the Great Commission “Christianity sliding into empire” The value of resolution and the open-ended nature of the Genesis narrative Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“I’m here because you’re here.” Berkeley, California is known for being the home to the Free Speech Movement of the 1960s. It was and is the site of many protests, drawing vocal minorities to Sproul Plaza and People’s Park for demonstrations, activism, and public assembly. So it’s come to symbolize what it means to speak out and be heard. But what does it mean to minister to an energized public square? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton thinks back to his time ministering in Berkeley, CA. First Presbyterian Church remains a close neighbor to the University of California, Berkeley campus. He describes an approach to public engagement marked by generous listening, a desire to know the individuals so moved to protest and speak out, and offer faithful presence to a community dedicated to protest and activism. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes Berkeley, CA People’s Park Sproul Plaza (site of famous Free Speech Protests of the 1960s) How to intensify their thirst? “What I really wanted was a conversation.” “Listening to God, which is what the life of Christian worship actually is.” “Living a life of listening, which is central to all Christian discipleship.” “I’m here because you’re here.” “I wish there had been a lineup of protesters outside first press asking, ‘How dare you?’… why are we not gathering protestors?” “I was wanting to so authentically speak and preach and live the gospel, that we would be the peculiar people that would cause people to say, ‘Why are you so peculiar?’—not just in that sense of church oddness, but in that deeper sense of why are you the peculiar people of unexplained mercy, unexplained forgiveness, unexplained passion for justice, unexplained sensitivity to individuals, and to societal, social, and systemic needs.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.