Conversing with Mark Labberton

Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work through the tensions, challenges, and possibilities for a more truthful and hopeful evangelical witness. Episode Highlights “The goal of the documentary is not to be a kind of hit piece about the evangelical movement. It’s to tell the story of the church.” “To be for Black people is not to be against somebody else.” – Tom Skinner “I couldn’t understand why the Bible people weren’t leading the way on questions of race.” “Participation in evangelical spaces can’t mean leaving part of yourself outside.” “Realism allows you to have honesty, but also remember the good news is the greatest news of all.” “God wants all of us—our whole selves—not a muted version.” Helpful Links and Resources Black + Evangelical Documentary (Christianity Today) Black + Evangelical Documentary Trailer The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life by Vincent Bacote Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News by Vincent Bacote Breaking Down Walls by Raleigh Washington & Glen Kehrein Tom Skinner’s Urbana 1970 Address (Full Audio) *The Color of Compromise* by Jemar Tisby About Vincent Bacote Vincent Bacote is professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics. He is the author of several books, including The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life and Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News: In Search of a Better Evangelical Theology. His research and teaching address public theology, ethics, and the intersection of race and evangelical identity. Bacote is a widely cited commentator and a frequent voice in conversations about Christian faithfulness in public life. Show Notes Mark Labberton welcomes Vincent Bacote, professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics. Introduction to the Black + Evangelical documentary, a project Bacote helped conceive and produce. Bacote’s upbringing at Shiloh Baptist Church of Glenarden, Maryland—unknowingly part of the Progressive National Baptist Convention. Conversion experience around age ten, preceded by years of genuine faith. College years at the Citadel; involvement in the Navigators campus ministry. Influence of a summer training program in Memphis focused on African American ministry. Early exposure to evangelical culture through radio preachers like Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, and James Dobson. Initial tensions over the lack of evangelical engagement on issues of race. Graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School with the initial goal of becoming a pastor. Encounter with Raleigh Washington and Glen Kehrein’s Breaking Down Walls, grounding racial reconciliation in Ephesians 2. Observations of the scarcity of black theologians in evangelical seminaries. 1993 Geneva College conference on black evangelicals—learning from leaders like Bill Pannell, Tom Skinner, Tony Evans, Carl Ellis, and Eugene Rivers. Writing an editorial titled “Black and Evangelical: An Uneasy Tension?” for the student paper at Trinity. Realization that evangelicalism is both a biblical and socio-cultural movement with contextual blind spots. Arrival at Wheaton College in 2000 with a focus on public theology and ethics beyond race alone. Genesis of the Black + Evangelical project at a 2008 Fuller Seminary gathering with Ron Potter. Partnership with Christianity Today and filmmaker Dan Long to shape the documentary. Filming over forty hours of interviews with twenty-four participants, distilled into a ninety-four-minute film. Mark Labberton highlights Tom Skinner’s impact and his “Blackface” critique of white evangelicalism. Bacote reflects on his “racially optimistic” early years and growing awareness of systemic realities. Analysis of the Promise Keepers movement and the need for sustained relational work beyond large gatherings. Challenges in building genuine multiethnic churches versus surface-level diversity. The documentary’s aim: to tell the church’s story, honour lived experiences, and inspire commitment to mission. Bacote’s “four stages” for minorities in evangelical institutions: delight, dissonance, distress, and decision. Emphasis on “sober hope”—honesty about pain while holding onto the good news. The gospel’s call to bring one’s full self into the life of the church. Closing encouragement to watch and share Black + Evangelical as a story worth hearing for the whole church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth. He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church’s role in ecological justice. As executive director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They move from scientific clarity about climate urgency to the theological blind spots that have hindered the Christian response. Together, they explore how churches across the US and beyond are reclaiming creation care—not as a political issue, but as a form of discipleship and worship. With stories ranging from urban stream cleanups to coral reef restoration, Lowe emphasizes small, local, relational efforts that respond to God’s ongoing work in the world. At the heart of the conversation lies a call to moral will, theological clarity, and faithfulness in the face of ecological grief. Episode Highlights “The world is good—but it’s groaning.” “Small does not mean insignificant. … We have the solutions. The problem is not our technical ability—it’s our moral and political will.” Learn More about A Rocha Visit arocha.us for more information. About Ben Lowe Ben Lowe is executive director of A Rocha USA, a Christian conservation organization engaged in ecological discipleship, community-based restoration, and climate advocacy across the US and globally. He holds a PhD in interdisciplinary ecology from the University of Florida and a BS in environmental biology from Wheaton College (IL). Ben has spent over two decades working at the intersection of faith, science, and environmental justice, and is passionate about equipping churches to participate in God’s restoration of creation. Since his first encounter with A Rocha as a Wheaton student in 2003, Ben has served on A Rocha staff teams and boards, nationally and internationally, most recently as deputy executive director of A Rocha International. Ben’s training as a scientist and a minister inform his leadership and development of A Rocha USA’s national strategy and team. Originally from Singapore, Ben was the founding national organizer of Young Evangelicals for Climate Action and has served on the boards of A Rocha USA, A Rocha International, the Au Sable Institute, and Christians for Social Action. He is the author of multiple books, and his work has been featured in media outlets including Audubon Magazine, Christianity Today, and the New York Times. He has a bachelor of science in environmental biology from Wheaton and a PhD from the University of Florida focussed on the human, religious, and ethical dimensions of environmental change and conservation. Ben is based in the warm and watery state of Florida, where he can often be found kayaking on the Indian River Lagoon. Show Notes Earth Day began in 1970, a pivotal moment for environmental awareness—“That means that I was a junior in high school when the world embraced this name as a way of trying to bring attention to the whole world about environmental issues.” Mark Labberton opens with concern for “the political moment that we’re in … in the United States and in other places around the world.” Ben Lowe introduces the biblical framing: “This world is good, but it’s also groaning.” Why Climate Action Still Matters “We don’t know where we would be, were it not for Earth Day fifty years ago.” “The question is not whether we know what to do, but whether we’re doing the right thing and we’re doing enough of it.” “It’s never too late to take action and to get engaged.” Scientific Consensus and Urgency “The science has gotten a lot more sophisticated and a lot clearer.” “We’re not talking about hypothetical issues anymore. We’re talking about issues that many, if not all of us, are tangibly experiencing now.” “Things are moving faster, further, and at a greater scale and magnitude than we were hoping to be experiencing right now.” Oceans, Heat, and the Limits of Natural Buffers “The oceans are a huge gift to human society, and they have been buffering and absorbing a lot of the heat and the carbon that we’ve been emitting.” “The oceans are not limitless. … We are seeing signs that the oceans are warming more than they can sustain.” “Every year now we have these hurricanes that are huge in terms of their scale and the amount of water that they can suck up from these overheated oceans.” Practical Impact of Climate Change “My homeowner’s insurance rates more than doubled in the last few years.” “We’re just getting all these signs coming from all of our systems that are warning us that we are on a completely unsustainable path.” “The silver lining to us being the driver of so many of these problems is that we can also choose to be part of the solution.” Role of the Church in Ecological Transformation “The church can really shine a light of hope, of love of the good news that God promises for this world in the midst of all that.” “Small does not mean insignificant.” “We have the solutions we need. … The problem is not our technical ability, it’s our moral and political will that has been lacking.” Global Clean Energy Transition “We are in a great transition, but that transition is happening and it’s sort of unstoppable.” “The question is how quickly will it happen and will we be able to move it forward quickly enough?” “Christians have a particular contribution. … We can bring the moral will to help shape the decisions.” A Rocha’s Global and Local Work “A Rocha is a network of Christian conservation organizations in about twenty-five countries around the world.” In Florida, “we’re helping to work with local partners, universities, high schools, churches, to conserve the lagoon.” “In Austin, Texas … we have a lot of Spanish-language programming … to help connect recent immigrants with the communities that they’re living in.” Partnering with Churches for Creation Care “The cutting edge of what we’re moving into now though is our work with churches.” “Research … is showing that there is a shift happening with more and more Christians in churches becoming aware of the problems in God’s world.” “Now we have more and more people coming to us, so much that we’re growing, but we’re not growing fast enough and we have to turn some people away.” Localized Action and Practical Partnerships “We launched a cohort of Vineyard USA churches … to support Vineyard congregations that want to get more involved.” “We walk them through a process of discerning … the ways that God might be inviting them to participate in what God’s already doing.” “We’re working with a church on Oahu in Hawaii that bought a defunct golf course … we’re working together to help restore the native habitat.” Creation Care as Worship and Witness “We see this as being in God’s hands … and us as playing a faithful role in responding to what God is doing.” “What would a follower of Jesus do in this situation?” “Everything that we do to care for creation … the offering itself is one that we direct to God as the creator.” Theological Reformation, Not Innovation “It’s not theological change so much as it’s theological reformation. This is orthodoxy.” “We don’t see this work as of our own initiative. What we see ourselves doing is responding to what God is already doing.” End Times Theology and Ecological Responsibility “We don’t treat anything else in life that way. We don’t treat our bodies that way. We don’t treat our children that way.” “It has been biblically orthodox from the very beginning to care for God’s world.” “It’s not because we’re Christian, it’s because we’ve not been Christian enough.” Political Identity vs. Christian Witness “We see these issues first and foremost through our political lenses instead of through our theological biblical Christian lenses.” “These issues transcend any particular political ideology or party.” “They’re moral issues, they’re faith issues, they’re spiritual issues, and for us, they’re an integral matter of our Christian discipleship and witness.” How A Rocha Helps Churches Avoid Partisan Pitfalls “We try to say, all right, what does God call us to do as people, as his image bearers in the world today?” “Let’s do a stream cleanup together.” “You kind of learn as you go … and before you know it, you look back and you realize, oh gosh, how far I have come.” Discipleship and Environmental Stewardship “The longer I’m in this work, the more I’m learning how to care for creation and help others do the same.” “The closer I grow to Christ too, and the more I find myself being conformed into what the Bible calls us to be.” “It’s not always an easy journey, but it’s a really good and life-giving and sanctifying journey.” Mark’s Personal Reflection: Replanting His Garden “It has utterly changed the way that I now look out the kitchen window.” “Just that small change has given me a better sense of life, a better sense of creation … a better sense of the importance of having a world that you can meditate on.” Ben Lowe’s Formative Experiences in Singapore and the Black Hills “We’d sort through the catch with them and they’d give us the things that they couldn’t sell.” “Being able to step out into a national forest and breathe the air … reminds me that … there is still so much good in this world worth protecting.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative. In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby. Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching, disillusionment, and hope that emerged. Together, they examine the cultural fractures, theological tensions, and moral failures that have pushed many to extremes, elevating strident voices as an increased number of people to leave the church. They articulate the mission and vision of Credible Witness, testify to a persistent hope in Jesus and the power of honest community, face painful truths, and imagine a church that more truly reflects the love, justice, and mercy of God. Key Moments “We absolutely get that… but we’re still on board with Jesus. And Jesus has always been with us and hasn’t left us.” “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” “We’ve got a better story to tell.” “It was the church that was putting the church at risk.” “The church has a reputation in the United States… and not a good one by and large.” About the Guests Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times. Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic. Show Notes “This isn’t about leaving Jesus. This is about following Jesus.” —Jemar Tisby Nikki introduces Credible Witness as a space for honest stories of faith amid moral complexity and social tension Mark recalls the origins of the conversation in summer 2020: COVID-19, George Floyd, church division, and racial injustice Jemar Tisby clarifies the mission for imagining a more credible Christian witness Nikki reflects on trust-building in a space that welcomed “tricky truths” and honesty without pretense The group’s five-year journey begins as a short experiment but grows into a lasting community of deep discernment “We weren’t trying to replicate any harm.” —Jemar Tisby The group names white Christian nationalism and silence on injustice as threats to the church’s credibility Ephesians 2 and the power of “coming together of the unlikes” as a witness to the resurrection “It was the church that was putting the gospel at risk.” —Mark Labberton Nikki explains how church neutrality began to speak volumes: “Choosing silence was actually a loud voice.” Discussion on the failure of integrity: “Too many things in isolation” eroded credibility Jemar highlights story as central to public theology: “We’ve got a better story to tell.” The group wrestles with algorithmic distortion and toxic digital narratives shaping Christian identity “Not just message, but embodiment”: The church’s credibility depends on lived ethics, not just theological claims Mark emphasizes self-examination: “Are we credible?” Dissonance and disagreement as gifts: “What kept people in the room was the gift of dissonance.” —Nikki Toyama-Szeto Jemar recalls moments of tension over how to prioritize justice issues while remaining unified in Christ The group’s diversity as a deliberate strategy: different traditions, backgrounds, and responsibilities within the church Nikki names divine timing: the conversation is more urgent now than when it began “We’re not all supposed to be the same... That’s how everything gets covered.” —Jemar Tisby Mark frames the church’s failure as internal implosion—not external threat “Why is the church seemingly so unchanged?” —Mark Labberton Nikki describes how marginalized voices carry wisdom for the way forward Jemar articulates the podcast’s goal: a mirror and a window for listeners to see both themselves and the larger church Nikki closes with an invitation to slow down and listen generously: “Pull up a chair...” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In this insightful discussion, community leaders Kerwin Manning, Megan Katerjian, and Mayra Macedo-Nolan share their experiences after the Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena. Kerwin serves as a Senior Pastor dedicated to youth and justice, while Megan leads a nonprofit for homeless families, and Mayra directs a coalition addressing systemic inequities. They delve into personal losses, the trauma faced by their neighbors, and the Church's role in fostering resilience. Their stories shine with hope as they navigate the complex journey of rebuilding lives and community connections.

Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches that are brave enough to listen deeply, lead adaptively, and partner with the next generation in mission. This conversation unpacks their “Here to There” framework, the role of human agency in ecclesial change, and why honouring young people isn’t pandering—it’s planting seeds for the future of faith. Episode Highlights “We believe the best days of the church are ahead.” “Leadership begins with listening.” “Unless strategy emerges out of culture, or unless the culture is changed, it’s really hard to lead.” “Everything rises when we focus on young people.” “Agency is the intersection of knowing, being, and doing.” Helpful Resources and Links Future-Focused Church by Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Ray Chang (InterVarsity Press) Fuller Youth Institute—Research and innovation for youth ministry TENx10 Collaboration—Movement to help faith matter more for ten million young people over ten years Asian American Christian Collaborative—Equipping Asian American Christians for faithful public witness ”Churches and Change: Adaptive Leadership”—Heifetz on adaptive vs. technical change (Harvard Business Review) Rethinking Church in the 21st Century (Fuller Seminary)—Ongoing work in contextual theology and church innovation About Kara Powell Kara Powell is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary, executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. A leading voice in youth ministry and church innovation, she is author or co-author of numerous books including Sticky Faith, Growing Young, and 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. She is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation. About Ray Chang Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative. A pastor, activist, and writer, Ray’s work focuses on racial justice, next-gen discipleship, and building churches that reflect the diversity of God’s kingdom. He is co-author of Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation. Show Notes Kara Powell is chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary and executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute Ray Chang is executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration and president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative Future-Focused Church offers a framework for adaptive change, grounded in Scripture, research, and practical leadership “Leadership begins with listening”—Kara shares the importance of appreciative inquiry and asking youth what matters to them Ray describes today’s church as “a church actively trying to define and redefine itself in tumultuous and complex times” Simple but powerful framework: Here to There—understanding where we are and where God is calling us next Three checkpoints of a future-focused church: relationally discipling young people, modelling kingdom diversity, tangibly loving our neighbours “Everything rises when we focus on young people”—churches flourish when the next generation is centered Data shows only one in three senior pastors rank young people among their top five priorities Kara: “I wish the problem was that young people were overly prioritized—sadly, it’s the opposite” Church innovation isn’t just strategic, it’s adaptive: “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Ray explains why Covid exposed the difference between technical and adaptive change in the church Kara: “We overestimate what we can accomplish in one year and underestimate what we can do in three to five.” Biblical foundations explored—Paul’s epistles blend being and doing; Galatians 5 offers a model of fruitful action Human agency as divine invitation—Ray: “God invites us to partner in God’s work for the flourishing of humanity” Kara’s church story: youth sat in the front, fully engaged—“They prioritized us” Simple action steps from churches include showing up to youth events and publicly celebrating young people’s milestones Mark Labberton challenges the idea of “pandering” to youth—Kara responds with data and theological reflection Ray reflects on the complex dynamics in immigrant and second-gen Asian American churches—“placelessness” and a search for belonging Importance of community: following Jesus together, across generations, cultures, and neighbourhoods Kara reframes giving: “Young people want to give to people and to purpose—not to perpetuate programs” “Culture is where values are held; unless strategy aligns with culture, it will be resisted”—Ray on organizational change Intergenerational relationships are critical—older adults model faith and love through presence and commitment The book offers not just direction but formation: process, practice, and people matter as much as the goal “If there’s ever a moment to care about the church—and young people—it’s now.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

With a B3 organ, a prophetic imagination, and a heart broken wide open by grace, gospel music legend Andraé Crouch (1942–2015) left an indelible mark on modern Christian worship music. In this episode, Stephen Newby and Robert Darden offer a sweeping yet intimate exploration of his life, spiritual vision, and genre-defining genius. Together with Mark Labberton, they discuss their new biography Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Through laughter, lament, and lyrical memory, Newby and Darden—both scholars at Baylor University and co-authors of the first serious biography of Crouch—share stories of discovering Crouch’s music, the theological and cultural forces that shaped it, and why his legacy matters now more than ever. They offer insights about modern musical history, spiritual reflections, and cultural analysis, inviting us into the soul of a man who helped bring modern gospel into being. Episode Highlights “Musical genius is where observation, curiosity, imagination, and humility are baked in the oven.” “He was always tracking what was going on in the room and in his heart. He understood the cues, clues, and codes of what God was doing.” “Andraé felt it was important that the music was just as inspired as the lyrics. It was total praise.” “’Soon and Very Soon’ is an ancient future song—we have to keep singing it, especially now.” “Andraé burned out a lot of musicians—but all of them adore him to this day.” Helpful Links and Resources Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch by Stephen Newby and Robert Darden (Penn State University Press) Black Gospel Music Preservation Project (Baylor University) “Jesus Is the Answer,” by Andraé Crouch “Through It All,” by Andraé Crouch “Soon and Very Soon,” **by Andraé Crouch People Get Ready! A New History of Black Gospel Music by Robert Darden About Stephen Newby Stephen Michael Newby is a composer, conductor, and scholar. He serves as the Lev H. Prichard III Endowed Chair in the Study of Black Worship at Baylor University and is a professor of music in the Baylor School of Music. A widely recognized expert on gospel, jazz, and black sacred music, he is also affiliated with the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project as an ambassador and collaborator. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. About Robert Darden Robert F. Darden is emeritus professor of journalism at Baylor University and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project. A former gospel music editor at Billboard magazine, Darden is the author of numerous books on gospel music history, including People Get Ready! A New History of Black Gospel Music and Nothing But Love in God’s Water. He is co-author of Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Show Notes Andraé Crouch called the “father of contemporary modern gospel” for his groundbreaking influence on the genre Guest Stephen Newby holds the Lev H. Pritchard III Chair in Black Worship and Music at Baylor University Guest Robert Darden is emeritus professor of journalism at Baylor and founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project Labberton celebrates the book’s narrative, musical, and sociocultural scope Crouch grew up in a Pentecostal context that encouraged musical exploration and spiritual improvisation Gospel rooted in KoGIC (Church of God in Christ) tradition, blending Beale Street sounds with evangelical fervour Darden describes Crouch’s early music as “jazz, pop... but wait, it is gospel—they’re singing about Jesus” Crouch and his sister Sandra composed “Jesus Is the Answer,” considered the first modern praise and worship song The book includes more than two hundred interviews from gospel musicians, friends, and collaborators Crouch read the room and followed the Spirit—every performance was improvisational, responsive, alive “Through It All” composed after the heartbreak of a failed relationship; the grief birthed one of his most lasting songs Gospel music as lament and praise: “We hear the pain, we hear the resolve, we hear the lament turning to praise” Crouch’s “Take Me Back” begins with Billy Preston on B3 organ—“He hasn’t forgotten the church,” says Newby Earth, Wind & Fire, Motown, and classical influences shaped Crouch’s orchestration and arrangements Darden: “He wanted the music to sound as good as the words. It was obsessive—but it was for God.” Andraé’s collaboration with producer/drummer Bill Maxwell led to a string of gospel albums with unmatched quality “We are going to see the King”: the timeless hope of “Soon and Very Soon” rooted in the black spiritual tradition Crouch’s music was not only groundbreaking—it was pastoral, prophetic, and profoundly personal Evangelistic to his dying breath, Crouch witnessed to hospital staff and janitors alike The book's subtitle “Transformative Music and Ministry” is more than academic—it’s biographical theology Newby and Darden’s friendship mirrors Crouch and Maxwell’s cross-cultural collaboration Soon and Very Soon offers readers a chance to read with phone in hand—listening and learning simultaneously “Jesus is the answer” remains a musical and theological call across generations Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

During a moment of historic turbulence and Christian polarization, Trinity Forum president Cherie Harder stepped away from the political and spiritual vortex of Washington, DC, for a month-long pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago—a.k.a. “the Camino” or “the Way.” In this episode, she reflects on the spiritual, emotional, and physical rhythms of pilgrimage as both counterpoint and counter-practice to the fracturing pressures of American civic and religious life. Together, she and Mark Labberton consider how such a posture of pilgrimage—marked by humility, presence, and receptivity—can help reshape how we understand Christian witness in a fraught and antagonistic time. Harder explores how her Camino sabbatical offered her a deeply embodied spiritual liturgy—one that grounded her leadership and personal formation after years of intense service in government and faith-based institutions. She also reflects on the internal and external catalysts that led her to walk three hundred miles across Portugal and Spain, including burnout, anxiety, and the desire to “walk things off.” What emerged was not a single epiphany but a profound reorientation: a reordering of attention, a rediscovery of joy, and a new kind of sociological imagination—one that sees neighbourliness through the eyes of a pilgrim, not a partisan. Episode Highlights “Being a pilgrim, one is a stranger in a strange land, one has no pretensions to ruling the place. … It’s a different way of being in the world.” “There was a widespread belief in the importance of persuasion … a very different posture than seeking to dominate, humiliate, and pulverize.” “Every day is literally putting one foot in front of the other. And you spend each day outside—whether it’s in sunshine or in rain.” “There’s a pilgrim sociology that is so counter to how we interact in civic space today. … It’s a different way of being in the world.” “You’re tired, and there’s an invitation to stop and to pray.” “I didn’t have an epiphany, but what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.” Helpful Links and Resources The Trinity Forum The Way (film) – a film about the Camino starring Martin Sheen Off the Road: A Modern-Day Walk Down the Pilgrim’s Route into Spain by Jack Hitt Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan (Project Gutenberg) Sabbath as Resistance by Walter Brueggemann Camino de Santiago Overview – Wikipedia About Cherie Harder Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit that curates Christian thought leadership to engage public life, spiritual formation, and the arts. She previously served in multiple leadership roles in the US government, including in the White House under President George W. Bush, and as policy director to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. A graduate of Harvard University, she is a writer, speaker, and advocate for grace-filled public discourse and thoughtful Christian engagement in civic life. Show Notes Cherie Harder is president of the Trinity Forum, a non-profit based in Washington, DC, and focused on Christian thought leadership. She previously served in the White House and as policy director for the Senate Majority Leader. Harder reflects on how leadership now requires “counterforce just to stay in the same place.” She critiques the rise of “performative belligerence” in both civic and Christian life. “There’s a premium placed on humiliating and deeply personally insulting the other side—and somehow that’s seen as strength.” She contrasts past politics, which valued persuasion, with today’s polarization, which valorizes domination. “Persuasion takes others seriously. It assumes they’re reasonable and open.” The Camino de Santiago and pilgrimage Harder walked over three hundred miles, from Lisbon to Santiago, along the Portuguese Camino. She frames pilgrimage as an act of spiritual resistance against anxiety, burnout, and cultural chaos. “I need to find a way to walk this off.” The daily rhythm of the Camino offered physical and spiritual rest: wake, walk, eat, reflect, rest, repeat. “Every day was the opportunity to just move, to see, to attend to what was in front of me.” She was struck by the liturgical nature of walking: “There’s no perfect walk, but you have to start.” Each step became a form of prayer, an embodied spiritual practice. Embodied spiritual formation Harder calls the Camino “a liturgy of the body”—a spiritual discipline grounded in physical motion. “Being in your body every day changes you—it makes your needs visible, your limits felt, your joy more palpable.” She found that physical needs—food, rest, shelter—highlighted spiritual hungers and gratitudes. The rhythm reoriented her from leadership stress to lived dependence on grace. “I didn’t have an epiphany. But what I had instead was a daily practice that fed my soul.” Spiritual renewal and rhythmic practices Harder affirms that the Camino gave her a hunger for spiritual rest she hadn’t fully realized. “It showed me the deficiency was greater than I thought … I’ve missed this.” She explores how practices of solitude, walking, and prayer can carry over into her work. Mark Labberton proposes Sabbath-keeping as one way to embody pilgrimage back home. “We may not all get to Portugal—but we can still find a Camino in our days.” Harder is now exploring how to sustain “a rhythmic alteration of how we hold time.” Pilgrim sociology and neighbourliness Harder describes a “pilgrim sociology”—a social vision rooted in vulnerability, curiosity, humility, and shared burdens. “We’re in a strange land. We’re not here to rule, but to receive.” The Camino fostered solidarity through shared hardship and generosity. “You literally carry each other’s burdens.” She draws a sharp contrast between the posture of a pilgrim and the posture of a combatant. “It leads to a much kinder, gentler world—because it’s not a posture of domination.” Spiritual lessons from the Camino The convergence at Santiago prompted reflection on heaven: “All these people, from different paths, looking up at glory.” She was reminded of Jesus’s words, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” “The Camino literally means ‘the Way.’ You’re relying on direction that is true.” The historic path invites pilgrims into the long, sacred story of the church. “You feel part of something bigger—millions have gone before you.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists. Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer’s encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer’s thought—ultimately offering a compelling call to face the challenge of colonialism embedded in Christian theological frameworks, and unmask and dismantle the assumptions of white Western dominance within theology. Episode Highlights “Even the most sincere and most brilliant, and even pious Christian, if we’re not paying attention to the way in which we are formed, repeats the problems that he’s trying to address in society.” “Our interpretation of Jesus shapes our morality as Christians.” “Hitler and Dietrich both understood their crisis as christological—just with radically different ends.” “Christ is actually present in the world in space and time—but for Bonhoeffer, that was the West. That’s a problem.” “The arbiter of culture owes it to the rest of the world not to be cruel. But what if the whole project needs to be undone?” “Access for black people has always meant white loss in the white imagination. That’s the virus in the body politic.” Helpful Links and Resources Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus by Reggie Williams Ethics by Dietrich Bonhoeffer The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer Just Peacemaking by Glen Stassen About Reggie L. Williams Reggie L. Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University. A scholar of Christian social ethics, he focuses on race, religion, and justice, with a particular interest in Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s theological development during his time in Harlem. Williams is the author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus and a leading voice on the intersections of colonialism, theology, and ethics. Show Notes Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus reframes theological ethics through the lens of Harlem’s Black Church experience Reggie Williams explores how racialized interpretations of Jesus shape Christian morality Glen Stassen’s just peacemaking framework helped form Williams’s commitment to justice-oriented ethics Bonhoeffer’s exposure to black theology in Harlem was transformative—but its disruption didn’t last “The church must say something about those targeted by harmful political structures.” Bonhoeffer saw racism as a theological issue after Harlem, but still defaulted to Western Christology “Christ is located in the real world—but for Bonhoeffer, that meant colonial Europe and America” Williams critiques Bonhoeffer’s failure to see Christ outside the imperial West “Behold the man”—Bonhoeffer’s formulation still echoes a European epistemology of the human The human as we know it is a European philosophical construct rooted in colonial domination Bonhoeffer’s Ethics critiques Nazism but still centres the West as the space of Christ’s incarnation “The unified West was his answer to fascism—but it still excluded the harmed and colonized.” Even as a resister, Bonhoeffer operated within metaphysical frames of white supremacy “A reformed imperial Christianity is still imperial—we need a theological break, not a revision.” Bonhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship reflected troubling views on slavery—he changed over time “From 1937 to 1939 he moves from withdrawal to coup attempt—his ethics evolved.” Reggie Williams argues the theological academy still operates under Bonhoeffer’s colonial presumptions “White Christian nationalism is a sacred project—whiteness floats above history as God’s proxy” Racial hierarchy was created to justify economic domination, not the other way around “Black access is always imagined as white loss in the American imagination” The DEI backlash reflects a long pattern of retrenchment following black progress “How we treat bodies is how we treat the planet—domination replaces communion” Bonhoeffer’s flaws do not erase his significance—they remind us of the need for grace and growth “He’s frozen in time at thirty-nine—we don’t know what he would’ve come to see had he lived.” Mark Labberton calls the current moment a five-alarm fire requiring voices like Williams’s “We are at the precipice of the future all over again—the old crisis is still with us.” The church’s complicity in empire must be confronted to recover the radical gospel of Jesus The moral imagination of the church must be unshackled from whiteness, ownership, and dominance Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“More of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” (Myal Green, from the episode) Myal Greene (president and CEO of World Relief) joins host Mark Labberton to discuss the global humanitarian crises, refugee resettlement, and the church’s responsibility to respond with courage and compassion. From Rwanda's post-genocide reconciliation following 1994 to the 2025 dismantling of humanitarian aid and refugee programs in the US, Greene shares how his personal faith journey fuels his leadership amid historic humanitarian upheaval. Rooted in Scripture and the global moral witness of the church, Greene challenges listeners to imagine a more faithful Christian response to suffering—one that refuses to turn away from the world’s most vulnerable. Despite the current political polarization and rising fragility of moral consensus, Greene calls on the church to step into its biblical role: speaking truth to power, welcoming the stranger, standing with the oppressed, and embodying the love of Christ in tangible, courageous ways. Episode Highlights “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” “To truly be a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party.” “What we’ve seen is that more of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” “The challenge for pastors is: How do I talk about this issue without losing my job or splitting my congregation?” “If we’re failing to define our neighbour expansively—as Christ did—we're always going to get it wrong.” Helpful Links and Resources World Relief Open Doors World Watch List 2025 2024 Lifeway Research on Evangelicals & Immigration PEPFAR Program – US Department of State National Association of Evangelicals Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers About Myal Greene Myal Greene has a deep desire to see churches worldwide equipped, empowered, and engaged in meeting the needs of vulnerable families in their communities. In 2021, he became president and CEO after serving for fourteen years with the organization. While living in Rwanda for eight years, he developed World Relief’s innovative church-based programming model that is currently used in nine countries. He also spent six years in leadership roles within the international programs division. He has previous experience working with the US government. He holds a BS in finance from Lehigh University and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary in global leadership. He and his wife Sharon have three children. Show Notes Myal Greene’s call to faith-rooted leadership in alleviating poverty Greene’s path from Capitol Hill to World Relief, shaped by his conversion in his twenties and a deepening conviction about God’s heart for the poor “God was working in me and instilling a deep understanding of his heart for the poor.” Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers Psalm 31:7–8: “I’ll be glad and rejoice for you have seen my troubles and you’ve seen the affliction of my soul, but you’ve not turned me over to the enemy. You’ve set me in a safe place.” “ Not only will God transform your life, but what it means to actually have experienced that and to feel that and to make that a very real personal experience.” 2007 in Rwanda Rwanda’s one-hundred-day memorial period for the 1994 genocide “The effects of the genocide were always there. You wouldn’t be able to see it, but it was always there.” Gacaca courts (system of transitional justice to handle the numerous legal cases following the 1994 genocide). “People would come and talk about what happened. … The attempts at apology, the attempts at reconciliation were powerful.” ”There are so many stories from Rwanda of true reconciliation where people have forgiven the people who’ve killed their family members or have forgiven people who’ve done terrible things to them.” ”How did the Gachacha courts see an interweaving or not of Christian faith in the process of the acts of forgiveness?” The church’s role: “The hard part and the amazing part of Rwanda is that reconciliation is deeply connected to individual cases.” “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” World Relief's Legacy & Mission Founded in 1944 at Park Street Church, Boston, in response to World War II European displacement. “Feeding 180,000 people a day in Korea during the Korean War.” “We boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church.” The global displacement crisis Over 122 million forcibly displaced people worldwide—up from under 40 million in 2007 (a fourfold increase) “A handful of the most fragile nations of the world are experiencing extreme violence, fragility, rising poverty, the effects of climate change, and people are being forced to flee and put into d desperate situations.” “The generosity of the country is not being seen at a time when people in crisis face the greatest need.” World Relief is “one of ten refugee resettlement agencies, and we have been a refugee resettlement agency partnering with the US government since 1980 to do the work of welcoming refugees who come to this country. And we’ve partnered with every presidential administration since Jimmy Carter to do this work and have, have done so proudly.” Trump’s immigration and refugee resettlement policies Refugee resettlement has been halted since January 20, 2025—an estimated one thousand people per month left unwelcomed “At a time when people experiencing crisis are facing the greatest need, the generosity of the country is not being seen.” 120,000 refugees were welcomed in 2024. “We expected around 12,000” in 2025. “Should Christian organizations receive federal funding?” Cuts to federal humanitarian funding USAID interruptions directly affect food, health, and medical services in fragile states like Sudan, Haiti, and DRC. On PEPFAR: HIV-AIDS specific program established by George W. Bush PEPFAR: “25 million lives have been saved … now it’s among the casualties.” “Have these [federal cuts to humanitarian aid] increased philanthropic giving or has philanthropic giving dropped almost as a mirror of the government policy change?” Church response and misconceptions How should we manage uncertainty? When to use one’s voice to speak truth to power? “Polling shows evangelicals overwhelmingly support refugee resettlement—even Trump voters.” “Over 70 percent of evangelicals believe the US has a moral responsibility to welcome refugees to this country. Sixty-eight percent of of evangelicals voted for Trump agree with that statement as well.” Lifeway Research found only 9 percent of evangelicals cite the Bible or their pastor as their main source on immigration. “It would sit uncomfortably to any pastor if that were true about any other major issue.” “Pastors find themselves in this difficult place where they're trying to figure out, ‘How do I talk about this issue without losing my job and splitting my congregation?’” ”The dissonance between the way the press represents evangelical opinions about immigration” “Whether the church’s voice has enough authority to be able to actually affect people’s real time decisions about how they live in the world” “To be a truly a follower of Christ, you can’t be completely for a politician or completely for a political party because then you put that ahead of your faith in Christ.” “You have to be able to have that freedom to disagree with the leader or the party.” “A dog with a bone in his mouth can't bark. … I think that that's where we find ourself as a church right now. We want certain victories through political means, and we're willing to sacrifice our moral authority in order to get those. And I think that that's, that's a very dangerous place to be in as a church.” How Lifeway Research approaches their understanding of “evangelical Christian” “What is the authority of the church, and how is it exercising or failing to exercise its voice right now?” Hope for a compassionate church “The real movement happens when the church unites and uses its voice.” “One in twelve Christians in America will either be deported or live with someone who is subject to deportation.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What do you do when you don’t know what to do? Angela Williams Gorrell joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions. With poignant storytelling and theological depth, Gorrell shares how this book was born out of personal crucibles and a yearning to make sense of liminal, paralyzing spaces we all encounter—individually and communally. Together they explore how discernment is not just about decision-making but also about cultivating a life of wisdom, attentiveness, and spiritual depth. Rooted in Christian tradition yet capacious across communities and contexts, Gorrell invites listeners to slow down, ask deeper questions, and consider the spiritual, emotional, and communal terrain that shapes every meaningful decision. Episode Highlights “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “This journey is about an inward journey that says, how do I look at the state of my own soul?” “Sometimes good decisions don’t feel good.” “What if the best idea isn’t the good idea? And what if the data can’t tell us that?” “Lady Wisdom invites us to dine—to sit at a table with God and others, and not rush the meal.” Helpful Links and Resources Braving Difficult Decisions, by Angela Williams Gorrell The Gravity of Joy, by Angela Williams Gorrell Life Worth Living course at Yale www.angelagorrell.com @angelagorrell on Instagram Show Notes The “liminal space” of facing a difficult decision, arriving at a crossroads Defining discernment as “a practice, not a single moment of choice” The book stems from her decision to leave a tenured-track faculty position, and a painful personal choice about marriage Perpetua and Felicity—early Christian martyrs Individual discernment and soul work Life Worth Living at Yale “Can I be suffering and my life still be good?” The deeply heartbreaking experience of grappling with the question of divorce “I really struggled to find a book that was like, you can be deeply Christian, deeply spiritual, and make this very difficult choice.” “You have to put them in your own heart and soul. You have to grapple with these ideas, and then you write them.” Should we avoid difficult decisions? Discerning, then acting “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “I wanted to write a book that spoke to that liminal space where we feel paralyzed.” “Good decisions don’t always feel good—they might still break your heart” Discusses difference between chronic pain and acute pain in decision-making Discernment helps identify not just what is “right,” but what leads toward peace Michaela O’Donnell and chronic pain Discernment is about “looking at the state of your own soul and becoming a steward of it” “This story that God is nurturing in the world—that story doesn’t hinge on like this decision in your life.” Self-examination, and feeling alone in the decision Community-based decision-making “There are all these false binaries.” “What baggage do you have from the past? And how do you make sure that you're not seeing the present moment through the past?” Being as gracious as possible “ What is a way that we can create space to really hear from God?—to hear from each other, and to move forward in a way that we're doing change together and not to each other.” “They need to figure out something together that matters deeply.” The book offers a pathway for congregations and organizations discerning together “How do we do change with people?” Encourages communities to take time, name past wounds, and define who makes decisions Identifies the importance of setting clear expectations, timelines, and spiritual framing “Listening to everyone takes time, but it leads to deeper collective ownership.” Invites communities to ask: What values do we want to embody in this moment? “Sometimes the most valuable part of the process is the slowness.” Wisdom, complexity, and culture Decision-making in our polarized society must account for nuance, empathy, and complexity “What if the data tells us one thing, but the Spirit tells us something else?” Resist “data-driven” decisions as totalizing; discernment includes emotion, history, and spirituality. “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good, you know? Sometimes a life worth living is not about pursuing happiness.” “Lady Wisdom invites us to come and to dine at her house and to sit at a table together.” Names systemic fatigue: “Organizations optimize while their people starve.” Decision-making is affected by race, gender, trauma, context—“there is no one-size-fits-all path” Discernment as a practice, not a moment Braving Difficult Decisions includes exercises and frameworks, such as the “iceberg model” “Most big questions are like an iceberg. There’s all this ice beneath the surface that you don't see. That’s really the stuff that people are grappling with.” Encourages ongoing wisdom practices: surrender, self-reflection, value-alignment The book is not just a guide for one hard moment, but a long-term companion Ideal for pastors, therapists, educators, spiritual directors, and leaders About Angela Williams Gorrell Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell is an author, speaker, and consultant. Gorrell speaks and writes about finding the life worth living, joy, meaning, and purpose, and the intersection of spiritual and mental health. She is the author of Always On, The Gravity of Joy, and Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don’t Know What to Do. Angela’s research has been highlighted in media sources such as the New York Times, the Washington Post, and NPR. Gorrell has taught at several schools including Yale University and Baylor University. She has provided thought leadership and consulting for numerous organizations including the US Army and the NBA. You can find her at her website www.angelagorrell.com or on instagram @angelagorrell. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.