Cold War Conversations

This is the third and final part of Ralph Hänel’s story of his life in East Germany.In this episode, we hear his time in the Stasi prison in Cottbus which with its dark red brick façade was often referred to as the ‘Red Misery’.It’s a chilling insight into Stasi prison conditions and the brutality that the political prisoners endured from the other inmates and the guards.We also hear about Ralph’s eventual release and of some strange experiences he has in reunited GermanyAgain I am honoured and humbled that Ralph shared this story with us. I could really use your support to help me to continue the produce the podcast. A small monthly donation entitles you to the sought after CWC coaster as a thank you and you bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history. Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/If a financial contribution is not your cup of tea, you can still help us by leaving written reviews wherever you listen to us and sharing us on social media. It really helps us get new guests on the show.I am delighted to welcome Ralph back to our Cold War conversation…Further information on this episode can also be found here. https://coldwarconversations.com/episode182/Other episodes with Ralph are here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode177/ and here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode181/ You can buy Ralph's book here If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations in Facebook or click here https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Thank you very much for listening. It is really appreciated – goodbye.Radio GDRIf you are interested in East Germany we can highly recommend our friends over at Radio GDR.Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and podcast award announcement1:07 Life in the Stasi Prison: Conditions and Dangers3:08 Transfer to Caughtpus Starzy prison and initial experiences13:15 Treatment by guards and fear of a massacre18:38 Experience of the open border and release from prison27:25 First impressions of the West and arrival in West Berlin34:13 Relocation to West Germany and reunion with former workmates38:06 Moving to Switzerland, opening Kung Fu schools, and mysterious bank account46:21 Mysterious illness and suspicion towards a woman from work54:01 Decision to leave Germany and move to Canada59:23 Ralph's theory about the doppelganger and the secret service1:01:19 Acknowledgement of the podcast patronsChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this second part of Ralph Hänel’s story of his life in East Germany.We hear of Ralph’s arrest by the Stasi and subsequent interrogation for 10 months. Ralph describes in some detail the arrest and his early days of imprisonment. He also details the techniques used to try and make him break and the pressure the Stasi also put on his mother. It’s an incredible insight into the workings of the Stasi from someone who was there and I am honoured that Ralph shared this story with us. We also hear about his court case and in the following episode we hear about his time in the Stasi prison in Cottbus which with its dark red brick façade was often referred to as the ‘Red Misery’. I could really use your support to continue the podcast. A simple monthly donation via Patreon, plus as a monthly supporter you will get the sought after CWC coaster as a thank you and bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history. Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/If a financial contribution is not your cup of tea, then you can still help us by leaving written reviews wherever you listen to us as well as sharing us on social media. It really helps us get new guests on the show.I am delighted to welcome Ralph to our Cold War conversation…There’s further information on this episode in our show notes which can also be found as a link in your podcast app here. Other episodes with Ralph are here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode177/ and here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode182/ You can buy Ralph's book here If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations in Facebook or click here https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and Ralph Hänel's encounter with the Stasi (Ministry of State Security)2:21 Ralph's life in East Germany and his dreams of moving to the West7:10 Ralph's arrest and interrogation process by the Ministry of State Security17:45 The roles of the three interrogation officers and their psychological tactics25:14 The court procedure, sentence, and Ralph's suspicions28:10 Living conditions in prison and Ralph's relationship with his cellmate32:11 Ralph's mother's interactions with the Stasi and her constant surveillance43:32 Ralph's audacious move during his interrogation and the involvement of a Western lawyer52:18 The sentencing process, the charges, and Ralph's coerced confession57:17 The 'modern slave trade' of East Germany's political prisoners and Ralph's resilience59:16 Encouragement to join the Cold War Conversations Facebook group and support the showChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We speak with author Giles Milton about his new book Checkmate in Berlin: The Cold War Showdown that Shaped the Modern World.In 1945 at the end of World War 2 the Soviet Red Army captured Berlin. For the next four years, a handful of charismatic but flawed individuals – British, American and Soviet – fought an intensely personal battle over the future of Germany, Europe and the entire free world.Checkmate in Berlin tells this exhilarating, high-stakes tale of grit, skullduggery, and raw power. From the high politics of Yalta to the desperate scramble to break the Soviet stranglehold of Berlin with the greatest aerial operation in history, this is the epic story of the first battle of the Cold War and how it shaped the modern world.Now, I could really use your support to continue the podcast. A simple monthly donation via Patreon, will get you the sought after CWC coaster as a thank you and you’ll bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history.Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/If a financial contribution is not your cup of tea, then you can still help us by leaving written reviews wherever you listen to us as well as sharing us on social media. It really helps us get new guests on the show.I am delighted to welcome Giles Milton to our Cold War conversation…There’s a book giveaway and further information on this episode in our show notes which can also be found as a link in your podcast app here. https://coldwarconversations.com/episode180/If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations on Facebook.Thank you very much for listening. It is really appreciated – goodbye.Radio GDRIf you are interested in East Germany we can highly recommend our friends over at Radio GDR.Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and Giles Milton's new book "Checkmate in Berlin" discussion2:34 Interview with Giles Milton and introduction of key players in Berlin (1945-1949)7:53 Occupation of Berlin and agreement at Yalta for the occupation of Berlin15:48 Management of Berlin through the "Kommandatura" and key disagreements23:41 The looming showdown and the Defection of Igor Gouzenko27:28 Formation of political parties in occupied Berlin and Soviet strategy to control Berlin's administration33:01 Cultural and propaganda battles in Berlin35:24 Differing views on managing post-war Germany and the shift from dismantling to rebuilding Germany43:35 The concept of a siege: The Soviets' strategy to control Berlin and the dangers of the air corridors51:17 The Berlin airlift, its challenges and involvement of Lucius Clay, Colonel Frank Howley and Bill Turner1:08:25 Invitation to join the Facebook discussion groupChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is sponsored by MUBI, a curated streaming service with an ever-changing collection of hand-picked cinema. From new directors to award-winners. From everywhere on earth. Beautiful, interesting, incredible films — with a new one added every single day.Right now on MUBI, you can watch STATE FUNERAL, an astonishing archival vision of the Soviet Union in the days after Joseph Stalin’s death. The film is followed by a Q&A with director Sergei Loznitsa in conversation with Pietro Marcello (Martin Eden). James Chilcott, Peter Ryan and I had exclusive access to a preview version and in today’s episode we discuss our thoughts on the film. Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and Sponsor: Mubi0:44 Discussion on the film "State Funeral" and first impressions6:06 Power dynamics after Stalin's death and potential successors10:27 Observations on foreign delegations and British Communist Party's delegation14:26 Analysis of the film's cinematography and reactions to Stalin's death19:10 Origin and unseen footage of the film20:24 Influence of the film on younger generations22:48 Personal anecdotes and the fate of Stalin's family members28:53 Review of the film and Sponsor: Mubi31:14 Insights into the life of average Soviet citizens and stereotypes35:23 Body language in the film and reflections on the speeches39:31 The film as a representation of Soviet Union in 1953 and recommendationChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We speak with author Tim Tate about his new book the Spy who was left out in the Cold: The Secret History of Agent GoleniewskiMichal Goleniewski remains one of the most important, yet least known and most misunderstood spies of the Cold War. Even his death is shrouded in mystery and he has been written out of the history of Cold War espionage - until now.Tim Tate draws on a wealth of previously unpublished primary source documents to tell the dramatic true story of the best spy the west ever lost - of how Goleniewski exposed hundreds of KGB agents operating undercover in the West; from George Blake and the 'Portland Spy Ring', to a senior Swedish Air Force and NATO officer and a traitor inside the Israeli government. The information he produced devastated intelligence services on both sides of the Iron Curtain.I could really use your support to continue the podcast. A simple monthly donation via Patreon, will as a monthly supporter get you the sought after CWC coaster as a thank you and bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history. Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/If a financial contribution is not your cup of tea, then you can still help us by leaving written reviews wherever you listen to us as well as sharing us on social media. It really helps us get new guests on the show.I am delighted to welcome Tim Tate to our Cold War conversation…There’s further information on this episode in our episode notes which can also be found here. https://coldwarconversations.com/episode178If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations in Facebook.Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction1:08 Discussion on the topic: The Spy Who Was Left Out In the Cold3:51 Interview with Tim Tate and Goleniewski's importance in the Cold War14:38 Goliansky's defection and personal life complexities24:27 The arrest of Soviet spies and Goleniewski's debriefing process33:36 Goleniewski's trial and his rise in Polish intelligence38:06 Impact of other defections on Goleniewski's CIA status46:24 Public revelation of Goleniewski's story and his financial struggles54:57 Goleniewski's claim to be Prince Alexei Romanov and second bigamous marriage1:00:16 Polish intelligence's failed scheme to infiltrate Goleniewski's circle1:09:39 Analysis of Golitszin's motivations and his effect on Western Intelligence1:20:01 Possible movie adaptations of Goleniewski's story and his erasure from Cold War history1:26:07 Acknowledging patrons and how to support the show0:00 of contents powered by PodcastAI✨Chapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ralph Hänel tells some unique, strange and funny short stories about childhood and youth in East Germany. We talk about the experiences of his parents in the closing stages of World War 2, his schooling, and how he became a DJ, winning a trip to the Soviet Union.Ralph is a great raconteur with virtually endless stories about his life in East Germany. Hear how he saw Fidel Castro, met the first German astronaut in space and had a girlfriend, whose father was in the people’s police or was it the Stasi...?Ralph had a passion for martial arts, but in East Germany that wasn’t easy to pursue. Listen as Ralph tells how he found secret clubs and smuggled books into the country. However, his interest in martial arts brought him under suspicion and don’t miss subsequent episodes where Ralph’s life takes a turn for the worst when he is arrested by the Stasi and sentenced to 3 and half years in prison.I could really use your support to continue the podcast. A small monthly donation via Patreon is ideal, plus you will get the sought after CWC coaster as a thank you and bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history. Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/If a financial contribution is not your cup of tea, then you can still help us by leaving written reviews wherever you listen to us as well as sharing us on social media. It really helps us get new guests on the show.I am delighted to welcome Ralph to our Cold War conversation…There’s further information on this episode in our episode notes which can also be found here. https://coldwarconversations.com/episode177/If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations in Facebook.Thank you very much for listening. Radio GDRIf you are interested in East Germany we can highly recommend our friends over at Radio GDR.Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and Ralph Hänel's childhood in East Germany7:01 Ralph's experiences as a DJ and trip to the Soviet Union15:18 Life in East Germany: Dichotomy and the black market for Western records22:56 Encounters with famous people in East Germany27:33 Ralph's journey into martial arts and a secret judo club35:14 Communication with the West: Pen pals and smuggling books46:53 Living in East Berlin: Observations and encounters1:00:26 Ralph Hänel's life in East Berlin during the Cold War1:15:29 Challenges of East-West communication under Secret Service surveillanceChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adrian Jones was commissioned as a lieutenant in the Irish Army in 1983. As a 23 year old officer he served in the United Nations Peacekeeping Force UNIFIL in Southern Lebanon from 1987 to 1988.The Irish battalion consisted of 580 personnel which were rotated every six months, plus almost 100 others in UNIFIL headquarters and the Force Mobile Reserve. In all, 30,000 Irish soldiers served in Lebanon over 23 years.The Irish troops in Lebanon were initially intended to supervise the withdrawal of the Israel Defense Forces from the area after an invasion in 1978 and to prevent fighting between the Palestine Liberation Organization forces and Israel, however beginning in 1985, the Israeli army scaled back its numbers, remaining only in support of the South Lebanon Army in Southern Lebanon which was fighting the newly established Iranian proxy spinoff of the Amal movement – the Arab Shia Hezbollah.We hear about Irish officer training, the position of Irish neutrality during the Cold War. Among many subjects Adrian also talks about the challenges of his peacekeeping mission, rules of engagement and the deaths of Irish peacekeepers. Extra info, book details and videos are here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode176/Now I need help to continue to track down these unknown stories of the Cold war and ensure they are preserved before they are lost. If you can spare it I’m asking listeners to pledge a small monthly amount per month to help keep us on the air (larger amounts are welcome too) plus you can get a sought after CWC coaster as a monthly financial supporter of the podcast and you bask in the warm glow of knowing you helping preserve Cold War history.Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/James Chilcott is your host today and I am delighted to welcome Adrian Jones to our Cold War conversation…Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and early life of Adrian Jones2:08 SListener Donations Request7:34 Discussion on the role of the Irish military in global peacekeeping16:23 Irish neutrality during the Cold War24:55 Adrian's deployment to Lebanon: preparations and initial impressions30:12 The mission in South Lebanon and changing political landscape50:24 Reflections on the Lebanon tour and challenges of peacekeeping1:00:00 Navigating communication and politics in a pre-cell phone era1:04:00 Looking back at the time in Lebanon and closureChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In August 1960, a Soviet colonel called Oleg Penkovsky contacted the West to offer to work as a 'soldier warrior for the free world. MI6 and the CIA ran Penkovsky jointly, in an operation that ran through the showdown over Berlin and the Cuban Missile Crisis.He provided crucial intelligence, including photographs of rocket manuals that helped Kennedy end the Cuba crisis and avert a war. Codenamed HERO, Penkovsky is widely seen as the most important spy of the Cold War, and the CIA-MI6 operation, run as the world stood on the brink of nuclear destruction.We speak with Jeremy Duns, the author of Dead Drop also called Codename Hero in the US which investigates exactly how did the Russians detect Penkovsky, and why did they let him continue his contact with his handlers for months afterwards? Described as thrilling, evocative and hugely controversial, the book blows apart the myths surrounding one of the Cold War's greatest spy operations.Extra info, book details and videos are here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode175/If you are enjoying the podcast please leave a written review in Apple podcasts or share us on social media. By telling your friends you can really help us grow the number of listeners.Now I need help to continue to track down these unknown stories of the Cold war and ensure they are preserved before they are lost. If you can spare it I’m asking listeners to pledge a small monthly amount per month to help keep us on the air (larger amounts are welcome too) plus you can get a sought after CWC coaster as a monthly financial supporter of the podcast and you bask in the warm glow of knowing you helping preserve Cold War history.Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/I am delighted to welcome Jeremy Duns to our Cold War conversation…If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations in Facebook.Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and guest - Jeremy Duns2:33 The story of Soviet Colonel Oleg Penkovsky and his disillusionment with the Soviet Union10:17 The intelligence Penkovsky provided to MI6 and CIA and its impact23:30 The lack of satellite cover over the Soviet Union and Penkovsky's methods of passing information30:06 The complications and aftermath of Penkovsky's discovery and his influence on the Cuban Missile Crisis36:00 Arrests of Penkovsky and Greville Wynn, Wynn's trial and sentence42:31 The fate of Oleg Penkovsky and how he was betrayed45:32 DCode Name Hero: books on Oleg Pankovsky46:07 Sponsor: Acknowledging patron support46:58 End of episode and thanks to listenersChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

70 years ago today would have been the middle of a desperate battle by outnumbered British forces at the battle of the Imjin River in Korea. The Korean War was among the most destructive conflicts of the modern era, and one of the few times when the Cold War turned hot. There were approximately 3 million war fatalities and a larger proportional civilian death toll than World War II or the Vietnam War.Tommy Clough is one of the last survivors of the battle of the Imjin River and was just 19 when the Gloucestershire Regiment were cut off from their brigade by more than 10,000 Chinese troops in 1951. Outnumbered and surrounded, they dug in on a hilltop for three days, repelling attack after attack until their ammunition ran out. The battle of the Imjin River was one of the most famous of the Korean War.We hear in detail Tommy’s experiences in the days up to the battle, as well as the desperate fighting to hold off the Chinese army as food, water and ammunition ran out. Inevitably the Gloucestershire Regiment was forced to surrender and Tommy's story continues, with the hardship and privation of the 500 miles march to their prisoner of war camp. Following an escape attempt, Tommy is held and handcuffed for 6 weeks in solitary confinement including a lengthy period held in a small cage. It’s an incredible story of fortitude and resilience under the most extreme circumstances and I am so humbled and honoured to be able to share this story with you. I’d like to thank The History of War magazine for putting me in contact with the Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum and subsequently Tommy.Extra info and videos are here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode174/If you are enjoying the podcast please leave a written review in Apple podcasts or share us on social media. By telling your friends you can really help us grow the number of listeners.Now I need help to continue to track down these unknown stories of the Cold war and ensure they are preserved before they are lost. If you can spare it I’m asking listeners to contribute at least $3 USD per month to help keep us on the air (larger amounts are welcome too) plus you can get a sought after CWC coaster as a monthly financial supporter of the podcast and you bask in the warm glow of knowing you helping preserve Cold War history.Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/I am delighted to welcome Tommy Clough to our Cold War conversation…If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations in Facebook.Thank you very much for listening. It is really appreciatedSupport the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction and Tommy Clough's first encounter with the enemy2:39 Sponsor: History of War Magazine and request for financial support2:49 Tommy Clough's enlistment and journey to Korea13:45 Encounters and incidents during the advance towards the Yellow River22:30 Observations at the Imjin River and the ensuing Chinese attack30:18 The desperate measures and the moment of capture47:41 Arrival at the POW camp and survival strategies57:12 Escape attempts, interrogation, and hard labor sentence1:05:38 The end of the war and Tommy's journey back home1:11:07 Transition to civilian life and post-war experiences1:18:50 Tommy's silence about the war and eventual return to Korea1:20:25 Closing remarks and invitation to join the Facebook discussionChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

John Matisonn is a South African journalist who grew up in the suburbs in Johannesburg. In 1979 he was sentenced to jail for refusing to reveal his news sources.Matisonn describes life as a journalist in apartheid South Africa as well as his meetings with some of the key South African personalities of that period. He met with several South African Prime leaders including John Vorster, PW Botha and FW de Klerk who eventually oversaw the end of white majority rule. Also included are details of several meetings Matisonn had with Nelson Mandela the first black President of South Africa.We also hear about Soviet training for African National Congress leaders and the South African nuclear weapons programme.Now I could really use your support to help me to continue to produce these podcasts. A monthly donation of $4, £3 or €3 via Patreon will really and you will get the sought after CWC coaster as a thank you and bask in the warm glow of knowing you are helping to preserve Cold War history.Just go to https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/If a financial contribution is not your cup of tea, then you can still help us by leaving written reviews wherever you listen to us as well as sharing us on social media. It really helps us get new guests on the show.Special thanks to several listeners who left 5 star reviews including Louth23, monster ceilidh band and Mortificating.Peter Ryan is our interviewer today and I am delighted to welcome John Matisonn to our Cold War conversation…There’s further information on this episode in our episode notes which can be found here. https://coldwarconversations.com/episode173/If you can’t wait for next week’s episode do visit our Facebook discussion group where guests and listeners continue the Cold War Conversation. Just search Cold War Conversations in Facebook.Thank you very much for listening. It is really appreciated – goodbye.Support the project! https://coldwarconversations.com/donate/Follow us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ColdWarPodFacebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/coldwarpod/Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coldwarconversations/Youtube https://youtube.com/@ColdWarConversations0:00 Introduction of guest John Matisonn2:02 Sponsor: Request for listener support and acknowledgments2:34 Matisonn's experience as a journalist in Apartheid South Africa7:00 Interplay of Cold War dynamics in South Africa10:03 Nelson Mandela's relationship with Communism and the Soviet Union14:27 ANC leaders' training in Soviet Union and GDR21:02 South African collaboration with Western intelligence services26:26 The concept of "linkage" in the Cold War and Cuba's involvement29:38 South Africa's nuclear program35:27 Reagan administration's approach towards South Africa42:48 Matisonn's personal interactions with Apartheid era leaders46:06 Introduction to John Matisonn's book "God, Spies and Lies"48:25 Sponsor: Acknowledging Patrons and Sponsors49:11 Invitation to Join Facebook Discussion GroupChapters powered by PodcastAI✨ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices