Spiritual Life and Leadership

James Choung, the author of True Story: A Christianity Worth Believing In, outlines a way of talking about Jesus that addresses, not only our need for eternal life, but also God’s desire to bring restoration to the world today and our invitation to participate with God in that work of restoration.This is a fantastic interview about sharing a Gospel that is truly good news, not only for the afterlife, but also—and perhaps even more importantly—for the here and now.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:James Choung is Vice President of Strategy and Innovation for InterVarsity and author of True Story: A Christianity Worth Believing In, Real Life: A Christianity Worth Living Out, and Longing For Revival: From Holy Discontent to Breakthrough Faith.James encountered Jesus in college through Intervarsity Christian Fellowship.James Choung began to ask if the way we present the Gospel is creating selfish Christians.Dallas Willard, who was teaching a Doctor of Ministry class that James was taking, asked, “What is the Gospel Jesus preached?” That was a turning point for James.The Gospel Jesus preached was, “The Kingdom of God has come near.  Repent and believe the good news.”The Kingdom of God is not just about what happens when we die, but also about what happens now in this life.You can view videos of James Choung's Gospel diagram HERE.  You can also download a PDF explanation HERE.The four components of the Gospel are that we have been:Designed for goodDamaged by evilRestored for betterSent together to healIs a gospel that has no social impact actually good news?Understanding the Gospel in this way made the Gospel once again feel like good news to James.James Choung’s most recent book is titled, Longing for Revival.To connect with James Choung visit jameschoung.net.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:James Choung:Website – www.jameschoung.netGospel Presentation videosGospel Presentation PDFBooks Mentioned:True Story: A Christianity Worth Believing In, by James ChoungReal Life: A Christianity Worth Living Out, by James ChoungLonging For Revival: From Holy Discontent to Breakthrough Faith, by James ChoungOther links:Bridge of the Faithful podcastStrongbad E-mail, "How to Draw a Dragon"— Links to Amazon are affiliaSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Evangelical identity has changed. The word “evangelical” carries a lot of baggage these days.  There was a time when it primarily denoted a theological conviction that included a recognition of the Scriptures as God’s word, an understanding of our need for salvation through Jesus, and a commitment to caring for the “least of these.”Unfortunately, that’s no longer what most non-Christians think of when they hear the word “evangelical.”  Today, evangelical identity has become--for a lot of people--synonymous with American, right wing, conservative politics.In his book, delightfully titled, When Evangelicals Sneeze, Michael Cooper explores the historic meaning of evangelicalism and how evangelical identity has changed in recent years.  And in this interview, we dive into those same topics.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Michael Cooper shares the story of a young Evangelical Palestinian woman who has experienced persecution because people in her community associate Evangelicalism with Donald Trump.Feeling as though he had lost his evangelical identity, Michael “resigned” from Evangelicalism in a conversation with Doug Birdsall, former Executive Director for the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization.There are three marks of historic Evangelicalism:The Great Commandment:  The defense of the faith.The Great Compassion:  Our engagement in social justice.The Great Commission:  The declaration of God’s glory to the nations.Michael Cooper discusses the connection between Evangelicalism and conservative politics.Michael explains what he means by the term, “Trumpgelical.” It seems this has in some ways become the new evangelical identity.There are various kinds of evangelicals, including Trumpgelicals, Deconstructionists, Post-modernists, and Fundamentalists.There is a difference between a Trumpgelical and an Evangelical person who voted for Trump.The title of Michael Cooper’s book, When Evangelicals Sneeze, is a reference to the impact that American Evangelicalism has on global Evangelicalism.When Evangelicals Sneeze is available on Amazon.  You can find out more about Michael Cooper and his work at www.ephesiology.com.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Michael CooperEphesiology WebsiteBooks mentioned:When Evangelicals Sneeze, by Michael CooperEphesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement, by Michael CooperInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Tim Winders had it all.  A beautiful home, three companies each valued in the millions.  He was, by all accounts, very successful.Then the 2008 recession hit and he and his family began the slow descent of financial collapse that culminated with the loss of their home and essentially becoming homeless.In this episode, you’ll hear how Tim’s life was transformed through this experience and how his experience of suffering and loss drew him into a much deeper relationship with God than he could have ever imagined.  THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tim Winders is a business coach and host of the Seek Go Create podcast.  He also just finished writing a novel which will be released soon.In the early 2000’s, Tim owned real estate, coaching, and lead generation business valued in the millions of dollars.Tim tells the story of how he lost his home when the economy collapsed in 2008.  He and his wife became nomads living in an RV and have continued to live that way since then.In his younger years, Tim's mind was set on experiencing as much financial success as possible.After coming to faith, Tim Winders found himself believing aspects of the prosperity gospel.As the economy fell apart in the years after 2008, Tim and his family had no choice but to seek the Lord.Tim learned that he is a steward—not an owner—of everything he has.Tim embarked on an eighteen-month study of the Kingdom of God.  Tim defines the Kingdom of God as anywhere God is allowed to reign and rule.Tim Winders describes how he defines success today.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Tim Winders and Seek Go CreatePodcastWebsiteTwitterMarkus Watson Patreon pageInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Steven Garber has spent his life helping people get a clearer understanding of vocation in general, but also helping them get clear on their own unique vocations.  In this interview, he will do the same for you.  Near the end of the episode, Steve tells three brief stories to help us understand why pastors and churches need to have a robust understanding of vocation, so be sure you listen to the end.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Steven Garber is author of Visions of Vocation and Professor of Marketplace Theology at Regent College.Steve shares his story and what led him to focus his work on matters of vocation.“Who keeps on keeping on?” became the question of Steve’s life.“Vocation” is a big word and a big concept.  It is much more than a job or occupation.The first question we ask must be, “Who am I?”  The second must be, “Why am I?”  From these two questions follows a third:  “What should I do with my life?”In his book, Steven Garber writes, “To know the world and still love it. There is not a more difficult task that human beings face.”  Steve unpacks this statement.Steve and Markus discuss marriage as a vocation, citing a series of poems by Madeleine L’Engle called To a Long-Loved Love.Visions of Vocation focuses on the question, “Knowing what you know about yourself and the world, what are you going to do?”Steve explains how he would help a person begin to understand their vocation.Steven Garber shares three stories that demonstrate why it’s so important for ministry leaders to have a robust understanding of vocation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Books mentioned:Visions of Vocation: Common Grace for the Common Good, by Steven GarberThe Ordering of Love: The New and Collected Poems of Madeleine L'Engle, by Madeleine L'EngleWork Matters: Connecting Sunday Worship to Monday Work, by Tom NelsonFlourish San DiegoSix Practices of a Flourishing Church, free resource by Markus WatsonInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through anSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Jason Elam, host of the Messy Spirituality podcast, has an amazing story.  As a pastor, Jason had all the answers, but he didn't have a lot of love.  Then something happened.  Today, Jason Elam is no longer a pastor and he doesn't have all the answers.  But he has discovered the love of God in a way he could never have imagined before.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Elam is a former pastor and host of the Messy Spirituality podcast.Jason is currently writing a book with the working title, From Ashes We Rise: Rebuilding Your Faith When Your Life Burns Down.Jason was constantly afraid of God when he was a child.Jason was often a guest speaker in churches who got people “back into line.”It was by losing his church and losing his marriage that Jason hit “that bottom place.” This is where Jason began to learn that he was loved unconditionally by God.Jason Elam had a near death experience as a child in which he experienced the unconditional acceptance of God.  That acceptance always pulled him away from the legalism of his tradition.During the final year of Jason Elam’s ministry, Jason’s church stopped holding worship service. Instead, they held an indoor farmer’s market with food for anyone who needed it.We can only truly know God when we truly know ourselves.Certainty makes preaching easier but living with yourself harder.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason Elam:Website:  www.messyspirituality.orgBooks mentioned:Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life, by Richard RohrThe Gift of Being Yourself, by David BennerSurrender to Love, by David BennerLife of the Beloved, by Henri NouwenInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

To celebrate the 75th episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, I'm bringing a short conversation with my twelve-year-old daughter, Macy Watson.  We talk about her thoughts on God and we talk about leadership.Oh, and what the heck is "a box with feelings"?  Well, you'll just have to listen to find out!THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus interviews his daughter, Macy, about her thoughts on 1) God and the spiritual life and 2) leadership.Macy thinks of God as the most understanding Person ever.Macy sometimes thinks of herself as “a box with feelings”.Macy shares her experience as captain of her cheer team.Macy believes forcing people to do what you want them to do is bad leadership.Markus explains to Macy the metaphor of “the carrot and the stick.”RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Spiritual Life and Leadership:Facebook GroupFacebook PageInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

This is the third and final part of this series based on the book, Surfing the Edge of Chaos.  I’ve been talking with Jason Coker about the role of disequilibrium in regard to systems and organizations; specifically, that the experience of disequilibrium actually makes a system or organization stronger.And that goes for churches, as well, since churches are systems.  When a church lingers for too long in a state of equilibrium—where everything is, y’know, fine—it actually becomes weaker and more at risk of dying.  But when a church experiences disequilibrium at the edge of chaos—and is able to navigate that experience wisely—it becomes stronger, more resilient, and healthier.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Coker shares how he is doing in light of current events, particularly the call for racial justice.The four principles of Surfing the Edge of Chaos are:Equilibrium is a precursor to death.  When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it.  This places it at maximum risk.In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos.  This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path.  Unforeseen consequences are inevitable.  The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.Markus explains self-organization using the examples of dental plaque and Tupperware.Jason discusses the non-denominational movement of the 1960s and 1970s as an example of self-organization.As churches are unable to meet in person during the coronavirus, what kind of self-organizing is taking place now?Leaders have to step back and let go of control when self-organization begins to take place.Jason discusses Black Lives Matter as a movement that is unable to be controlled by more established black leaders.To be a strong leader is not necessarily to take control, but to refuse to take control.Jason shares how his church went through a two-year process of discernment that led his church to change their name from First Christian Church of Oceanside to Oceanside Sanctuary.Change happens “at first slowly” and then “all of a sudden.”RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason CokerOceanside SanctuaryBooks mentioned:Surfing the Edge of Chaos:  The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, et.al.Beyond Thingification Study Guide— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

In this episode, Jason and I talk about the second principle in the book, Surfing the Edge of Chaos.  We talk about how the experience of disequilibrium evokes creative experimentation and fresh new solutions that leads to greater health.  And, specifically, we talk about how this unfolded in Jason’s church, Oceanside Sanctuary.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:The four principles of Surfing the Edge of Chaos are:Equilibrium is a precursor to death.  When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it.  This places it at maximum risk.In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos.  This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path.  Unforeseen consequences are inevitable.  The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.Jason briefly shares his church’s history and experiences of equilibrium and disequilibrium.Systems move in accordance with different kinds of “attractors.”  The three primary attractors are 1) Point Attractors, 2) Cycle Attractors, and 3) Strange Attractors.Strange attractors are those that lure systems toward the edge of chaos.Jason sees his pastoral role when he started at his church as one of creating disequilibrium.  From that disequilibrium, fresh new solutions can emerge.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason CokerOceanside SanctuaryBooks mentioned:Surfing the Edge of Chaos:  The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, et.al.Spiritual Life and Leadership Facebook GroupInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."Select the number of stars and write your review.Click submit.I'd be so grateful if you did this.  Thank you!— Links to Amazon are affiliate links.  If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

“The edge of chaos is a condition, not a location.  It is a permeable, intermediate state through which order and disorder flow, not a finite line of demarcation.  Moving to the edge of chaos creates upheaval but not dissolution.  That’s why the edge of chaos is so important.  The edge is not the abyss.  It’s the sweet spot for productive change.”That’s a quote from Surfing the Edge of Chaos, which looks at organizations as “complex adaptive systems.”  These systems—in order to remain healthy and vibrant—require periods of “disequilibrium.”  Seasons when death seems to be knocking on the front door.  And it is these seasons of disequilibrium and death that make the system stronger in the long run.In this episode, Jason Coker and I unpack the concepts of equilibrium and disequilibrium, and begin to look at his particular church and the role disequilibrium—and near death—played in his church's eventual revitalization.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Coker is the pastor of Oceanside Sanctuary in Oceanside, California, and a lecturer at California State University, San Marcos.Human beings tend to prefer to live life in a state of equilibrium, when everything is safe and predictable.We need disequilibrium to grow and thrive.These concepts come from Surfing the Edge of Chaos:  The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, Mark Milleman, and Linda Gioja.We prefer equilibrium over disequilibrium.  But we need disequilibrium in order to grow and thrive.Surfing the Edge of Chaos uses the concept of “complex adaptive systems” as a way of thinking about how to navigate organizational challenges.In a state of equilibrium, the system is at its weakest.A system actually needs disequilibrium in order to thrive and grow and to become stronger and healthier.“Prolonged equilibrium dulls an organism’s senses and saps its ability to arouse itself appropriately in the face of danger.”Four principles (from Surfing the Edge of Chaos):Equilibrium is a precursor to death.  When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it.  This places it at maximum risk.In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos.  This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path.  Unforeseen consequences are inevitable.  The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.Jason suggests that death is actually necessary.Markus and Jason discuss how Jason’s church experienced a long period of equilibrium before entering a period of severe disequilibrium in the 1970s, lasting all the way into the 2010s.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason CokerOceanside SanctuaryBooks mentioned:Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

The United States has had a long and complicated relationship with God.  And what’s really fascinating is the fact that Communist Russia played a significant role in the way many Americans think about that relationship with God today. A lot of folks think about the United States as a Christian nation—both in the United States and around the world.But is it?  And what does it mean to be a Christian nation? And what does the Soviet Union have to do with any of this? And…. As spiritual leaders, what’s a proper relationship between one’s nation—any nation—and the people of God?Chris Staron, host of the Truce podcast, and I discuss these questions in this episode.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Chris Staron is host of the Truce podcast, as well as the director of Bringing Up Bobby and Between the Walls, and the author of Cradle Robber.The Truce podcast is spending a year exploring how the rise of Communist Russia impacted the Christian church in America.Chris summarizes the connection between Communist Russia and American Christianity.When Karl Marx said, “Religion is the opiate of the masses,” he meant something different than what we normally assume.During the 1950’s, the United States made an intentional effort to connect Christianity with American patriotism.The core eight founding fathers of the U.S. were something between deists and Christian.  They believed God was involved in the world, but they did not believe that Jesus was God.The United States is technically an empire.Since it began, it expanded into areas that didn’t belong to it.Today, the U.S. still holds territories that are taxed without representation.Christianity is losing its prophetic distance from power, which makes it difficult for Christianity to speak truth to power.The Trump administration had gone to great lengths to associate Christianity with the administration.Chris Staron raises the question as to whether or not Christianity supports revolution.You can connect with Chris Staron at www.trucepodcast.com.  You can also find Chris Staron on Twitter at @trucepodcast and on Instagram at @trucepodcast.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Christ Staron:Podcast - The Truce PodcastTwitter:  @trucepodcastInstagram: @trucepodcastCradle Robber, by Chris StaronInstructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:Click HERE.Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link."  This will open iTunes.To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "WSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.