

Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast
David Santistevan: Worship Leader, Blogger, Teacher
David Santistevan from the popular davidsantistevan.com blog dives into the heart of worship leading, worship ministry, songwriting, and making disciples. Discover how you can take your worship leadership to the next level through practical teaching, expert interviews, and the latest resources for worship leaders. From developing a discipleship strategy, engaging your congregation, writing your own songs, leading your best worship, and so much more, this podcast will help you become the worship leader you are called to be.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Feb 12, 2025 • 53min
#345: Rich Villodas on Contemplative vs Charismatic Tensions, Church Growth, & The Narrow Path of Jesus
Topics Covered:
How New Life Fellowship cultivates a multicultural community
How to hold the contemplative and the charismatic together
How to lead congregations with different political views
Why church growth is unhealthy to obsess over
Pastoring people through racial tension
A biblical view of worship ministry
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
Rich Villodas
@richvillodas
The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas
Good and Beautiful and Kind by Rich Villodas
The Narrow Path by Rich Villodas
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #345: Rich Villodas on Contemplative vs Charismatic Tensions, Church Growth, & The Narrow Path of Jesus appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Feb 5, 2025 • 1h 9min
#344: Nikki Lerner on Life After Full Time Ministry, Worship Culture Conundrums, & Fostering Multicultural Churches
“We’ve made the list of everything that could go wrong. It’s time to make the list of everything that could go right.” – Nikki Lerner
Topics Covered:
What it’s like to leave full time ministry after 20+ years
The challenge of doing ministry when you’re paid to do it full time
The importance of creative outlets outside of the church
What to do when you’re bored with worship music
Nikki’s philosophy of worship
How to become a multicultural church
The difference between multi colored and multicultural
Mono-ethnocentricism and the worship industry
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
Nikki Lerner
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #344: Nikki Lerner on Life After Full Time Ministry, Worship Culture Conundrums, & Fostering Multicultural Churches appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Jan 27, 2025 • 1h 13min
#343: Malcolm DuPlessis on Racial Tension, Injustice, & The Commercialization of Worship
Topics Covered:
Malcolm’s story of activism in South Africa
Similarities of American culture today with South Africa in the 1970s and 80s.
The spiritual underground and what that means
What it means to be a Kingdom of Priests
The problem with becoming comercially viable
The story behind Common Hymnal’s new “Be Love” song
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
Be Love by Common Hymnal
Common Hymnal
The King Center
Common Hymnal Patreon
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #343: Malcolm DuPlessis on Racial Tension, Injustice, & The Commercialization of Worship appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Jan 15, 2025 • 1h 3min
#342: Mike O’Brien on Worship Artist/Leader Tensions, Local Church Ministry, & The Gift of Obscurity
Topics Covered:
5 of the biggest needs facing worship leaders right now
The reality of worship ministry
The difference between artist and worship leader
The gift of obscurity
The tensions of not earning worship artist fame
To use tracks or not to use tracks?
Practical tips for speaking from the stage
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
Three Streams Worship – Mike’s Ministry
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #342: Mike O’Brien on Worship Artist/Leader Tensions, Local Church Ministry, & The Gift of Obscurity appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

15 snips
Jan 2, 2025 • 1h 2min
#341: Tommy Preson Phillips on Why People Are Leaving The Church To Look For Christ
Tommy Preson Phillips, a pastor at Watermark Church, musician, and author of 'Invisible Jesus,' shares his insights on why people are leaving the church. He discusses his personal deconstruction journey and warns that many evangelical churches lack genuine engagement. Tommy critiques the worship industry, highlighting its superficiality and the disconnect in modern mega churches. He advocates for authentic spiritual connections and meaningful worship music, urging leaders to embrace change and focus on Christ-like values.

Dec 20, 2024 • 52min
#340: Kelsey Kramer McGinnis On Music, Money, & Profits in the Worship Industry (And What That Means For the Rest of Us)
Kelsey is a brilliant thinker. She is a musicologist and educator based in Iowa, holding a PhD from the University of Iowa.
Currently, Kelsey is a regular contributor to Christianity Today, writing and reporting on worship and church culture. She is also an adjunct professor at Grand View University in Des Moines, where she teaches on music and social justice.
As as a graduate student and adjunct faculty member at the University of Iowa, she taught a variety of courses on music history, social justice and the arts, and human rights. She served on the staff of the University of Iowa Center for Human Rights from 2010-2019, where she was the academic advisor for undergraduate students pursuing a Certificate in Human Rights.
Kelsey’s dissertation research explored the use of American music in the reeducation of German POWs during WWII. Other areas of expertise include contemporary sacred music in the United States, 19th century choral music, Evangelical subcultures, human rights and the arts, and the intersection of art and ecotheology. She is an active presenter at academic conferences and accepts invitations for guest lectures and workshops on her research and on human rights education in higher ed.
Topics Covered:
More about Kelsey and her journey into musicology and journalism
Our over-dependence on tools in worship ministry
Why having conversations with our congregation is important
Why we think all worship music sounds the same
The complications of Christian celebrity and worship music
Facing the music of money and profits in the worship industry
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
@kelseykmcginnis
Kelsey’s Website
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #340: Kelsey Kramer McGinnis On Music, Money, & Profits in the Worship Industry (And What That Means For the Rest of Us) appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Dec 12, 2024 • 44min
#339: Mac Powell on CCM Through the Years, Early Third Day Stories, Worship Music, & Personal Soul Care
Topics Covered:
The changes in Christian music from the 90s to now
The worship music boom of the early 2000s and
The story behind Third Day’s Offering worship record in 2000
Why leading worship in a local church is harder than leading a worship concert
The importance of self care for artists and worship leaders
What the transition from band to solo artist has been like for Mac
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
I Love Jesus by Mac Powell
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #339: Mac Powell on CCM Through the Years, Early Third Day Stories, Worship Music, & Personal Soul Care appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Nov 29, 2024 • 44min
#338: Aodhan King on Early Young & Free Days, New Music, & Christ Centered Worship
Topics Covered:
How Aodhan got connected to Hillsong
The beginning of Young & Free
The growth and struggle with popularity and touring
The writing of new music
God centered worship songs
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
Beyond Us by Aodhan King
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #338: Aodhan King on Early Young & Free Days, New Music, & Christ Centered Worship appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Nov 13, 2024 • 54min
#337: Martin Smith on The Future of Worship Music, Local Church Tensions, & Songs of Joy
Topics Covered:
What if felt like to make music in the early days of Delirious
Why Martin moves in spontaneous/prophetic worship
Why worship music less bold and creative today
Why joy and celebration are needed in worship today
Mega Church reform
The Rockstar Worship Leader pandemic
What it’s like having Stu G on the new record
Stories behind songs on the new record, Joy
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
Joy by Martin Smith
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #337: Martin Smith on The Future of Worship Music, Local Church Tensions, & Songs of Joy appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Nov 6, 2024 • 1h 8min
#336: Sam McCabe on The Worship Industry, Finding Your Own Voice, & Our Worship Song Diet
Topics Covered:
Critical thinking over a critical spirit
Sam’s church story of leading worship in various denominations
The importance of childlike faith
How to avoid the trap of copying the songs and styles of a few movements
Finding your own voice
Worship industry problems
Singing God-centered songs
Stadium worship tours and worship nights
Resources Mentioned:
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
The Death of Death by Sam McCabe
Show Sponsor:
My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.
It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.
First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.
In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.
So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free.
The post #336: Sam McCabe on The Worship Industry, Finding Your Own Voice, & Our Worship Song Diet appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.