Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

Today’s conversation is with Andrew Osenga. Andrew is an artist, songwriter, producer, musician, and author. He used to do A&R with Integrity Music. Used to have a band called The Normals. Was a part of Caedmon’s Call. Has a host of solo records and albums. He’s a very thoughtful voice in this space of worship and spiritual formation. He leads a project called Anchor Hymns. This was a deep, far ranging conversation. Topics Covered: Why we didn’t need to be sheltered from all thing secular How radio and Christian product has influenced our worship songwriting How fundamentalism warped our view of hymns Local church songwriting Why we need to write worship songs about more diverse topics Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Andrew Osenga Anchor Hymns Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #355: How Industry And Christian Product Has Influenced Worship in the Local Church with Andrew Osenga appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is an interesting juxtaposition to last week’s podcast with Jason Houtsma. Jason leads worship in a church of less than 100 people. Today’s guest – Jordan Howerton – is the Worship Pastor for one of the largest churches in the country – Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ. If you’ve listened to the my podcast for a while, you’ll know I don’t believe bigger is better. There is beauty in small. There is dignity in serving and pastoring a small church with incremental or slow growth year after year. But for today, I want us to dive into the mega church dynamic. What does it take to lead a staff of 70 people in worship and production? How can you care for and pastor hundreds of volunteers? How do you develop a unified worship culture across 18 campuses? We dive into all of that here. My conversation with Jordan Howerton  Topics Covered: Growing up in a small church + small church dynamics The challenge of being a worship leader today Why we need to make local church ministry great again Why God is moving in mega churches Dysfunction in both small and large churches Discipleship for your worship team What resources CCV uses to support their worship teams Why CCV doesn’t provide chord charts to their teams Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center CCV Music Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.  Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #354: Leading Teams and Leading Worship in a Mega Church with Jordan Howerton appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Playing actual live music in worship The small church community Comparing large church/high production to small church/low production Why you might NOT want to use clicks and tracks Taking risks and being creative in worship again Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center Scars by Jason Houtsma Worship Artistry My Name is Asher Lev by Chaim Potok Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.  Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #353: Small Church Worship, Click Tracks, & How Anyone Can Make a Worship Album with Jason Houtsma appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Coffee snobbery John’s favorite US (and international) coffee shops How to extend your vocal range Caring for the person, not the just the gifting The importance of staying rooted in a local church The dangers of ego and self centeredness in ministry Sonship Time restraints in worship Structure and flow in worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center Dealing With the Rejection and Praise of Man by Bob Sorge Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday Deeply Coffee Lineage Coffee Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.  Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #352: Discipleship, Ego, & Pursuing the Presence of God in Your Local Church with John Wilds appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Natalie Runion – Natalie is a worship leader, author, speaker, and founder of the online community Raised to Stay. She’s written two books – Raised to Stay and The House that Jesus Built, both powerful, insightful reads into the realities of local church ministry. In this conversation we talk about worship ministry tensions, aging out of ministry roles, challenges for women in ministry, the idol of green room culture, responding to church hurt, and why our obsession with church growth can get us off track. Natalie is bold, challenging, and an important voice to the church today. Topics Covered: How Natalie discovered this concept of “Raised to Stay” Worship as a church growth tool How to approach a full time ministry role Why our emphasis on leadership is hurting our leadership The idol of green rooms The entitlement of worship leaders Why the conversation around “anointing” needs to change The tension and struggle of being a female worship pastor Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center Raised to Stay (website) Raised to Stay: Persevering in Ministry When You Have a Million Reasons to Walk Away by Natalie Runion The House That Jesus Built: Leading Our Churches Back to God’s Original Blueprint by Natalie Runion Instagram.com/raisedtostay Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #351: Anointing Over Gifting, Women in Worship, & Evaluating the Foundation of Our Ministries with Natalie Runion appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Unlearning and deciphering mega church worship models Why it’s not our job to move the room Trusting the Holy Spirit as a worship leader How the Church Growth movement has effected the role of worship leaders Why we have elevated young leaders too soon An alternative to big, massive, mega church worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Level Up Coaching for Female Creatives w/ Becky Ykema Becky’s website How Firm a Foundation by Hymns of the People Pastors, Priests, & Guides – the retreat that Becky is a part of Slingshot Group – Staffing & Coaching for churches & nonprofits Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #350: Deciphering, Unlearning, and Reframing Mega Church Worship Models with Becky Ykema appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Why Gospel Music is fringe within the church Why we need diversity and how to encourage it Matters of race and racism in the church Finding your voice and being comfortable in your own skin Why we don’t understand the systemic nature of racism and can’t always see it Darwin’s upcoming new Setlist project Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Darwin Hobbs website (Heart Art Worship) Champion by Darwin Hobbs Darwin Hobbs Instagram Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #349: Darwin Hobbs on Finding Your Voice, Gospel Music in the Church, & Why We Can’t Stop Talking About Racism. appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: The story behind David’s new studio The importance of creating in community The challenges of being a Christian artist in 2025 What is exciting about worship music today Challenges with worship music today Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Just Jesus by David Leonard David Leonard Gruhn Guitars Deliver Me From Nowhere: The Making of Bruce Springsteen’s Nebraska by Warren Zanes Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #348: David Leonard on Creating in Community, Corporate Worship, & The Challenges of Being an Artist appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today we welcome Jeff Cochran to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. Jeff is the founder of the Spiritual Abuse Institute and the host of the Church Disrupted podcast.  Jeff is a business owner, church consultant, and has spent many years in local church ministry. His insights into spiritual abuse, church systems, and creating healtheir churches is so insightful. These are TOUGH TOPICS but so necessary to talk about so that we not only create GROWING church but also SAFE churches, free of abusive practices. Topics Covered: The definition of spiritual abuse and how to spot it Why pastors have a hard time admitting to their faults Spiritual abuse in small and mega churches What is especially challenging about mega church culture Mega church growth systems and what to be aware of How spiritual abuse finds its way into worship ministry Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Spiritual Abuse Institute The Safe Church Pledge Church Disrupted Podcast Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #347: Jeff Cochran on Spiritual Abuse, Mega Church Systems, & Fostering Healthier Worship Ministries appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: The Religious Exemption and what it means How we can use worship as a subtle form of manipulation The mega church structure and the dangers associated with it Integrity in church financials The upcoming Religious Business documentary Accountability in the church and a robust hope for the future Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center @thereligionbusiness Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #346: Nathan Apffel & Chris Ayoub on The Religion Business appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.